From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 00:10:57 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "French Fries" In-Reply-To: <59004.69.142.143.59.1104534908.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: French fries (OED 1918) 1903 _L.A. Times_ 20 Apr. 12 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) "Hello, Rex M!" he called in that jolly good-natured style of his which he always affects just after he has filled his artificial stomach with porterhouse and French fries. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Jan 1 01:39:02 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:39:02 -0500 Subject: technically correct subject-verb agreement In-Reply-To: <8F092D4A-5B6F-11D9-ADF0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, What a New Years Eve disappointment! I thought you were a local man. I like "override" just fine. dInIs >On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:50 AM, i wrote: > >>>>>Going to his house was what I lived for. There were liquor, music, >>>>>and >>>>>a strong desire for my body. >> >>just to remind people: this isn't a vote on what the "real" grammar of >>english is, or should be... > >and now, from the same book as the first quote (J.L. King, On the Down >Low, p. 159), this: >----- >The need [for a DL connection] and strong desire to make that >connection overrides all common sense. >----- > >this one has agreement with the nearest (either the embedded >"connection" or the head "desire" of the second conjunct, you can't >really tell), and i don't like it; i want "override". > >my guess is that a copyeditor "fixed" the first one, but just failed to >catch the second. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Sat Jan 1 02:27:36 2005 From: jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:27:36 -0800 Subject: some WOTY candidates, and others In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>ish(2) , adj.? 'sort of' (a liberated suffix) ish has been around since the early 80's, if not earlier. >>>pound, v. either 'drink quickly, chug' or 'have sex' Pound in both senses has been around at least as long as ish. Also, a drunk person is pounded. >>>bag fries, n. cpd. 'the French fries that fall out of their separate containers and end up at the bottom of the larger bag' This one's been around for a long time too. Remember it from mid-80's. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 03:01:31 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:01:31 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bulldozer" In-Reply-To: <200501010009.j0109C1X020335@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: This was word of the year for 1930, according to "America in So Many Words." bulldozer (OED, 2., 1930) 1929 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Mar. 38 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) The Trackson Company, logging hitches, full crawler attachments, cranes, bulldozers and backfillers, all of Milwaukee. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cloudacre at NORWOODCOLORADO.US Sat Jan 1 04:30:37 2005 From: cloudacre at NORWOODCOLORADO.US (Art Goodtimes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:30:37 -0700 Subject: some WOTY candidates, and others Message-ID: what about "paleohippie" = aging flower child? lots of post-war babies are joining the ranks of the AARPed see: /www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~34019~2514882,00.html art goodtimes On 31 Dec 2004 at 18:27, Jewls2u wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jewls2u > Subject: Re: some WOTY candidates, and others > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > >>>ish(2) , adj.? 'sort of' (a liberated suffix) > > ish has been around since the early 80's, if not earlier. > > >>>pound, v. either 'drink quickly, chug' or 'have sex' > > Pound in both senses has been around at least as long as ish. Also, a > drunk person is pounded. > > >>>bag fries, n. cpd. 'the French fries that fall out of their > >>>separate > containers and end up at the bottom of the larger bag' > > This one's been around for a long time too. Remember it from mid-80's. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jan 1 05:01:15 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:01:15 -0500 Subject: antecedent to modern bulldozer Message-ID: This interesting quotation suggests a new step in the development of the word bulldozer: "Bent the Car; A Huge Machine Comes to Town. Part of Apparatus to Make Trucks." Decatur [ILL.] Daily Review (NewspaperArchive.com), Sept. 9, 1903, p 2 The 60,000 pound "bull dozer" of the Tait Manufacturing company, mention a few days ago as due to arrive this week, came Tuesday. An idea of the weight could be formed by looking at the flat car on which the bulldozer came. The big machine was placed in the middle of the car. The floor was good when the machine was loaded, but now the car is fit for the repair shop. ... The bulldozer is to be used for bending steel rods. It can bend a piece of steel three by six inches, and probably more if the steel is heated. Happy New Year to all and to all a good night, David barnhart at highlands.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 05:30:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:30:23 EST Subject: French Fry (1901); Fuk Kin Fried Rice Message-ID: FRENCH FRIES ... I posted the following on 27 August 2002. ... 21 July 1901, New York Times, pg. SM19: Observe how I take this point of the blade and extract the eyes and bad spots in the potato, without haste, waste, or trouble! Now I take this end of the cutter and slice, and there you have the cubes or rectangles I would say for the famous French fry. Now I slice with this edge, and you have the world-renowned Saratoga chip. Now I slice with this, and you have the humble but popular German fry. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- FUK KIN FRIED RICE ... >From the menu of C&F Restaurant, 171 Hester Street: ... Ying Yang Fried Rice...10.95 Fuk Kin Fried Rice...9.95 ... Sure, you go there on a date and order the fuckin' fried rice. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT DINNER?--Joy Indian Restaurant, 301 Flatbush Avenue. I wanted to try Franny's, allegedly the best pizza in New York. There was no name on the place. A small sign said it was closed December 24-January 10. Joy is standard Indian. I walked back home over the Brooklyn Bridge. ... Happy new year everyone. Last year was pretty miserable and thankless. It started with the Big Apple whores. It ended with me begging the Chicago Tribune ombudsman to correct something that I never said, and to get credit for my work that was used. 2005 and the future will surely be even worse. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 06:02:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 01:02:02 EST Subject: Root Canal Republicans Message-ID: ROOT CANAL REPUBLICANS--24 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits ... I don't think this has been mentioned. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Confronting the Deficit/Debt Boogyman_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.econ/browse_frm/thread/ae9bd8b4f9f8871b/76976bf2341439c3?q="root+canal +republicans"&_done=/groups?q="root+canal+republicans"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2co ff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#76976bf2341439c3) ... Right now it looks bleak with the Root-Canal Republicans in control, but it is only a matter of time before another Reagan comes along. ... _sci.econ_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.econ) - Apr 23 1992, 8:33 pm by Ed Ipser - 70 messages - 23 authors ... _#Why Bush Is Rolling Over Daschle on Taxes_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc/browse_frm/thread/b27e493ccb91bac3/5e452c6ecdcddc70 ?q="root+canal+republicans"&_done=/groups?q="root+canal+republicans"&hl=en&lr= &ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#5e452c6ecdcddc70) ... Democrats are left sounding like root-canal Republicans chanting, "his numbers don't add up" and it's all "too good to be true." Mr. Bush has managed to make ... _talk.politics.misc_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc) - Mar 2 2001, 6:20 am by Sam Barber - 1 message - 1 author From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jan 1 06:50:20 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 01:50:20 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In a recent item regarding the Indian Ocean earthquake disaster, AP writer Matt Moore provides the following, which can be found at hundreds of Web sites, and I suppose in the printed papers: <> I cannot find any "Christina Blomee" other than in this piece. There are of course Web mentions of Haywood U. Blomee and Hugo N. Blomee. Is Blomee a real surname? Is this the new feminine version of "Joe Blow", an arbitrary name referring to just "somebody or other"? It seems a little closer to the knuckle than "Joe Blow", maybe. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 08:31:13 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 03:31:13 EST Subject: Tsunami (1896) Message-ID: "Tsunami" for WOTY? ... ... (OED) [a. Jap. tsunami, tunami, f. tsu harbour + nami waves.] A brief series of long, high undulations on the surface of the sea caused by an earthquake or similar underwater disturbance. These travel at great speed and often with sufficient force to inundate the land; freq. misnamed a tidal wave (see _TIDAL_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=tsunami&first=1&max_to_show=10&single=1&sort_type=alpha&xrefword=tidal&p s=a.) a. 1b). Also fig. and attrib. 1897 L. HEARN Gleanings in Buddha-Fields i. 24 ‘Tsunami!’ shrieked the people; and then all shrieks and all sounds and all power to hear sounds were annihilated by a nameless shock..as the colossal swell smote the shore with a weight that sent a shudder through the hills. 1904 Publ. Earthquake Investigation Comm. Foreign Lang. (Japan) XIX. 6 Records and reports of earthquakes and ‘tsunamis’. 1938 Nature 12 Nov. 881/2 The authenticity of the reports of earthquakes mentioned in these catalogues is weighed..with records of tunamis. 1956 Jrnl. Earth Sci. Nagoya Univ. IV. 2 The tunamis associated with strong earthquakes are frequent in Japan. 1967 Technology Week 23 Jan. 34/1 This system would predict..tsunami run-up floods. 1970 Daily Tel. 27 Nov. 11/7 A tsunami generated off Chile by the 1960 earthquake crashed into Japan on the other side at 400 m.p.h. 1972 Science 11 Aug. 502/1 The Food and Drug Administration..is currently swimming through a tsunami of comments generated by its announced intention to alter the regulations concerning the dispensation of methadone. 1981 Monitor (McAllen, Texas) 30 Jan. 3A/3 The National Weather Service..issued a tsunami warning. 1984 W. GOLDING Paper Men viii. 89 It seemed to me that I could feel the indifferent threat of the earth through the soles of my feet, the volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, terrors of nature's fact. ... 28 November 1897, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 49: _STORM, FIRE, AND FLOOD AS WOVEN INTO FICTION BY POPULAR AUTHORS._ LAFCADIO HEARN's new book, "Gleanings in Buddha Fields," contains a pretty story of how an old man came to be worshiped as a god while still living (...) "'Tsunami!' shrieked the people; and then all shrieks and all sounds and all power to hear sounds were annihilated by a nameless shock heavier than any thunder, as the colossal swell smote the shore with a weight that sent a shudder through the hills and with a foam-burst like a blaze of sheet lightning." ... (MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL) * _A Living God_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/atla/atla0078/&tif=00839.TIF&cite=http://c dl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-112) , by _Lafcadio Hearn_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/ww-idx?type=author&q1=Hearn,%20Lafcadio) : pp. 833-841 * _p. 837_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/atla/atla0078/&tif=00843.TIF&cite=http://cdl.lib rary.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-112) 1 match of 'tsunami' * _p. 839_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/atla/atla0078/&tif=00845.TIF&cite=http://cdl.lib rary.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-112) 1 match of 'tsunami' ____________________________________ in: Title: The Atlantic monthly. / Volume 78, Issue 470 Publisher: Atlantic Monthly Co. Publication Date: Dec 1896 ... (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Author: Hepburn, J. C. (James Curtis), 1815-1911. Title: Japanese-English and English-Japanese dictionary. Publication date: 1873. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Jan 1 11:45:52 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 06:45:52 -0500 Subject: Media Contact List Message-ID: As we approach the annual ADS meeting, I want to remind everyone that we have a media contact list on the web site that all ADS members with expertise are invited to join. Send your name, title, affiliations, areas of expertise, a short list of publications, a contact phone number, and an email address and I'll add you. This is the current list: http://www.americandialect.org/mediacontacts.html Grant Barrett ADS Webmaster gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 1 14:41:08 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:41:08 -0500 Subject: multiplex, megaplex, googolplex... Message-ID: * multiplex (cinema), a. (OED3 1982) [1969 _New York Times_ 20 July F15/2 Mr. Durwood said the multi-theater complex was catching on, now that the relationship between the retail center and the theater operator is becoming clear.] 1971 _Lincoln Star_ (Nebraska) 27 Apr. 13/1 Stanley H. Durwood, president of A.M.C., a wholly owned chain, not a franchise operation, has announced the opening of 7 multiplex theaters in 13 cities this year, an addition of more than 20,000 seats. 1971 _Lincoln Star_ (Nebraska) 28 Apr. 4/1 A Kansas City firm, American Multi-Cinema, Inc., has announced the opening of seven multiplex theaters in 13 cities, a total of 97 separate cinema operations. ... The multiplex idea is the building of combination theaters, usually in shopping centers, where two to four different movies are playing at the same time. * multiplex, n. (OED3 1982) 1972 _Washington Post_ 21 June B6/3 Marvin Goldman, who runs Washington's 15-theater KB chain and is vice president of the local National Association of Theater Owners chapter, agrees that shopping centers and multiplexes are at the crest of the wave of the future. * multi, n. = multiplex cinema (OED3 1988) 1970 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 9 Feb. 18/5 American Multi-Cinema, Inc., has come up with a unique way to cash in on the compacts: it puts them together as doubles, quadruplets or sextuplets. The Kansas City-based movie exhibitor claims to be the pioneer in "multis." 1972 _Washington Post_ 21 June B6/1 Perhaps the most obvious advantage of the multi is the fact that if you've got a bomb in one house, you still have a chance of salvaging the evening with a hit in another. 1972 _Washington Post_ 21 June B6/2 The shopping center location make the multi's even more inviting. * (N)-plex (OED2 1974, though not in the cinema sense) 1970 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 9 Feb. 18/5 Recently, it has gone to "six-plexes" in Omaha, Dallas and Houston. ... Next on the horizon for the showman, a 12-plex, or quads stacked on three floors. 1971 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 28 June 15 Currently, AMC is operating or building 203 auditoriums in 31 cities, scattered around 15 states; all are twin, quad or six-plex houses. * megaplex, n. (not yet in OED) 1988 _Business Journal_ (Portland, OR) 7 Nov. 7 (Proquest) (heading) Kruse Way site chosen for 10-screen megaplex. 1990 _Independent_ (London) 3 Jan. 22 (Nexis) "We are extremely bullish about cinema entertainment and are taking the multiplex concept one step further by building 'megaplexes'," said Mr Jenkins. "These will comprise up to 16 auditoriums with total seating of 7,000 at one site." 1996 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. H19/2 The megaplex, defined as a theater with 16 or more screens and deluxe accommodations, took hold in the late 1980's; soon Imax and 3-D theaters, video games, cappuccino machines and virtual reality games popped up in the megaplexes. * megaplex, a. (not yet in OED) 1991 _Los Angeles Times_ 5 Dec. 25 (Proquest) Westwood Boulevard's strip of Iranian shops and restaurants, a quarter-mile of signs in curling Farsi script located south of the skyscrapers and megaplex movie theaters. 1993 _St. Petersburg Times_ (Florida) 24 Apr. 4B (Nexis) So what about parking for this megaplex theater that would seat 3,500 to 4,500 people? 1995 _Sunday Mail_ (SA) 1 Oct. 24 (Nexis) The biggest will be at Westfield Marion where a giant 16-screen "megaplex" cinema will seat 5000. * googolplex (jocular, not yet in OED) 1991 _Re: Read the NYT or Die!_ in _soc.college_ (Usenet newsgroup) 16 Feb., I'd prefer the Century Googolplex, given that I have some remote chance of seeing a movie there. 1992 _Re: Colonel Homer_ in _alt.tv.simpsons_ (Usenet newsgroup) 27 Mar., Anyway, the googolplex joke is pretty old -- where I come from they are routinely called googolplexes, nanoplexes, gigaplexes, etc. etc. [Referring to a _Simpsons_ episode in which there is a sign for "Springfield Googolplex Theatres"] 1993 _Boston Globe_ 13 June (City Weekly) 11 (Nexis) Summer blockbusters such as "Jurassic Park" and "Last Action Hero" are about to invade your local googolplex cinema. 1996 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. H19/5 As the megaplex of today becomes the googolplex of tomorrow (AMC plans to open a 30-screen theater in Ontario, Calif., next year), are art houses in danger of being pushed out of existence? 1997 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland, Ohio) 14 Nov. 4 (Nexis) Opulence and swooning of this magnitude are rarely seen in today's cramped googolplexes. (several more cites available on Nexis) * gigaplex (jocular, not yet in OED) 1992 _Re: Colonel Homer_ in _alt.tv.simpsons_ (Usenet newsgroup) 27 Mar., Anyway, the googolplex joke is pretty old -- where I come from they are routinely called googolplexes, nanoplexes, gigaplexes, etc. etc. 1993 _Menace II Jurassic Park_ in _bit.listserv.cinema-l_ (Usenet newsgroup) 24 June, The following day, my movie craving still not sated, I nursed the Almobile over to the gigaplex & plunked myself down in front of Menace II Society. 1995 _Boston Globe_ 23 Oct. 50 (Nexis) We read the book on three-hour airport layovers, we saw the movie at the local gigaplex and on cable - but no, we will not watch "The Client" in its criminally boring Tuesday-night incarnation on CBS. 1995 _Tampa Tribune_ (Florida) 31 Dec. 17 (Nexis) Coming soon to a gigaplex near you. (several more cites available on Nexis) --Ben Zimmer From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jan 1 19:48:28 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:48:28 -0500 Subject: Fwd: msg about Barry Message-ID: Forwarded for Jerry Cohen: ----- Barry Popik wrote, Dec. 31 2004: [...] Happy new year everyone. Last year was pretty miserable and thankless. It started with the Big Apple whores. It ended with me begging the Chicago Tribune ombudsman to correct something that I never said, and to get credit for my work that was used. 2005 and the future will surely be even worse. ********** Hey, wait a minute. 2004 finally saw Barry receive journalistic credit for his outstanding work on "Windy City." 2004 also saw the appearance of _Origin of the Term "Hot Dog"_ (by Barry Popik, Gerald Cohen, and the late David Shulman)--again including Barry's outstanding research; 3/4 of the "hot dog" book contains material unearthed by Barry. The "Big Apple" whore theory is clearly (to scholars, not to journalists) a hoax, but that matter will be properly dealt with in the second edition of _Origin of the NYC's Nickname "The Big Apple"_. Barry will be listed as co-author, and this book should appear in 2005 or perhaps 2006. Then there was the NY Times article about Barry; I forget the exact date, but it appeared in 2004. The overall picture with Barry's research is that several of his favorite projects are coming to fruition, and I'm working at all deliberate speed to have his ads-l material appear in the working papers Comments on Etymology. He already has the admiration of the scholars familiar with his work, and journalistic recognition is now also coming. (Don't forget Ed Zotti's excellent Wall Street Journal article about him a few years ago). Gerald Cohen ----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 20:21:27 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:21:27 EST Subject: Donburi or Domburi (1949) Message-ID: DONBURI--27,300 Google hits, 572 Google Groups hits DOMBURI--1,530 Google hits, 56 Google Groups hits (Neither "donburi" nor "domburi" is in the OED anywhere. Just awful on food.) ... ... I was walking around Chinatown. Mikata Japanese Cuisine, 150 Centre Street, has "Donburi (Rice Delicacies)." I see from the archives that I had posted a fine 1962 citation for "domburi," but that's it. ... The Asia Society has a nice new food site, what I should be doing if I could find a food webmaster: ... _www.asiafood.org_ (http://www.asiafood.org) Domburi This is a heavy earthenware lidded bowl much used in Japan, and also refers to the food cooked or served in it. >From Charmaine Solomon's _Encyclopedia of Asian Food_ (http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/forms/9625934170.html) , Periplus Editions,1998,supplied courtesy of New Holland Publishers (Australia) Pty Ltd. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 23 August 1950, Los Angeles Times, pg. A1: _SASHIMI?_--"No sake, please," I told Sue Mira. She is a very Japanese girl at the very Kawafuku Cafe, or sukiyaki house. It's on the littoral of Little Tokyo. "Just sukiyaki." She asked me if I wanted some unagi donburi. She said that is eel on steamed rice. ... 11 July 1958, New York Times, pg. 26 (RESTAURANT GUIDE): Fuji 238 W. 56th St. off B'way Real Japanese Food & Atmosphere. Specialties Sukiyaki, Tempura, Donburi. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 7 November 1949, Dothan Eagle (Dothan, Alabama), pg. 5, col. 4: _Donalsonville Group_ _Complete Study_ _Course On Japan_ (...) Another afternoon the class enjoyed the dish, Okayko Domburi, which means "parent and child," the members using chopsticks. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:13:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:13:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Lexeme" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: lexeme (OED 1940) 1938 _American Anthropologist_ (n.s.) 40: 508 In the verb, the most complex of all the lexeme-classes, there are several pronominal sets of inflectional endings differentiated as to aspect, mode, and tense. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 1 22:11:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:11:46 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this name? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:29:24 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:29:24 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic Atlas" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: linguistic atlas (OED 1923) 1917 _Amer. Historical Rev._ XXIII. 172 A full linguistic atlas of Europe is a desideratum. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:36:45 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:36:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Loan Translation" In-Reply-To: <200501012227.j01MRgqf008011@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: loan translation (OED 1933) 1931 _Modern Language Journal_ XVI. 127 The question _How goes it?_, which is occasionally heard in the United States, is not idiomatic; it is a loan translation. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:55:18 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:55:18 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Psycholinguistic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: psycholinguistic (OED 1936) 1931 _Columbia Law Rev._ XXXI. 185 The purpose of the author in examining these decisions is to discover the psycho-linguistic processes of the judge in adopting the meaning of the particular form-word involved. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 1 23:00:36 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:00:36 -0600 Subject: t-day, more Message-ID: Barry has pushed "turkey day" back to 1887. "FOREIGN AFFAIRS Letters From The Front" By George C. Wilson, _National Journal_ Friday, Feb. 1, 2002 [excerpt from an anonymous email from a Naval aviator off the USS Theodore Roosevelt] "For Thanksgiving, the ship dressed up the wardroom, dimmed down the lights, and put out a nice T-day spread and, for a brief moment, it was almost like being home." beer days [later in the same article] "Speaking of beer, somewhere in the Navy regulations it's written down that for every 45 consecutive days that you spend at sea without a port call, you rate two beers. Two weeks ago, they broke out 10,000 beers for the crew to tear into, for this deployment's first of many "beer days." " college of cardinals _Almanac of American Politics_, Michael Barone with Richard E. Cohen and Grant Ujifusa; National Journal Group, 2002. New York: Twenty-Fifth District, Rep. James T. Walsh "Walsh has a seat on the Appropriations Committee, and has now been chairman of three subcommittees--part of the ''college of cardinals,'' in House lingo." _Charlie Wilson's War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History_, by George Crile; Atlantic Monthly Press Books, 2003. p. 77. "He'd first broken from the pack and become a part of the legend of his party in 1976, when he'd defied his own Texas delegation and maneuverd his way onto the all-powerful Appropriations Committee. That move had made Wilson a player -- one of fifty House members with a vote on how the government's $500 billion annual budget would be spent. " "Earmarking, a Way to Send Millions of Dollars Home", Tim Weiner Jul 13, 1994; The New York Times pg. D18/4 "To earmark a program, a member must have the ear of one of the 13 chairmen of the House Appropriations subcommittees. The chairmen, nicknamed "the college of cardinals" by their colleagues, have the power to distribute billions of dollars a year to favored programs." forty acres _Backyard Brawl : Inside the Blood Feud Between Texas and Texas A & M_ by W. K. Stratton; Crown Publishers, 2002. p. 88 "In fact, some Longhorn alumni complained during the 1990s that they were losing out on game seats to high-tech immigrants from out of state with deep pockets who wanted to be part of the UT football scene, never mind that they'd never set foot in a classroom on the Forty Acres, as the Texas campus is known." From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 2 00:43:27 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:43:27 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050101014027.02f64cf0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 2 00:57:49 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:57:49 -0500 Subject: "Cat faces" on tomatoes (1934) In-Reply-To: <20050101050027.98D63B250C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry gives a bunch of citations, including these, here reordered chronologically : >>>>> (OED) cat-face (U.S.), a mark in lumber-wood (see quot.); 1879 Lumberman's Gaz. 3 Dec., Logs that have *cat faces or burnt places..the cat face or knots. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 24 August 1934. Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 17: [...] the fruit blotches referred to by the trade as "cat faces." Found the name of the disfiguration is called "Cat face". ... _rec.gardens_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens) - Sep 21 1993, 10:44 pm by Gayle Chidester - 3 messages - 3 authors _http://fogcity.blogs.com/_ (http://fogcity.blogs.com/) ... _Forget about taste, Florida says, these tomates are just too ugly to ship. [...] the lush, vine-ripened UglyRipes have what the industry calls a "cat face," full of uneven crevices and ridges. (GOOGLE) _Gawker : Archive for Media : New York Times_ (http://www.gawker.com/news/media/new-york-times/index.php) ... And that's what we're calling our movie pitch: "Cat Face: The Little Tomato That Could." <<<<< In the three 1934-1936 citations, all from the Chicago Daily Tribune (written by the same reporter?), "cat face" is a count nominal; the 1879 lumber citation from the OED has a count use and what may be a non-count use, "the cat face or knots", or not: the ellipsis there is the OED's, not Barry's. The rec.gardens quote is non-count. The other modern ones are all quoting or derived from the New York Times article, so they aren't independent sources. (The Gawker cite is furthermore a joke and shouldn't be counted for anything.) They seem to refer to the appearance of the fruit as a whole. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 2 01:10:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:10:59 -0500 Subject: Sanas of... In-Reply-To: <20041231050053.2A531B291D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dan, is there any word that you can't derive from Irish? And if not, what's the point, since they can't all be? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Jan 2 01:18:53 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:18:53 -0500 Subject: Tsunami/sunami Message-ID: I've been getting most of my news about the tsunami and its aftermath from the newspaper and the web, but I do have the radio on a bit in the morning. Yesterday morning, I noticed tsunami being pronounced with an initial /s/, rather than the more authentically Japanese but definitely non-English [ts]. Increasing frequency of usage leading to nativization... -- Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 2 02:23:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:23:42 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: <20050101221146.81930.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0800 1/1/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for >seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore >concerning this name? > >JL > Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. Larry From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 2 02:32:21 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:32:21 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050101194110.02f63250@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: A little more searching shows that there was a Christina among those mentioned on the Web as missing at Khao Lak. The name wasn't Blomee; I won't say what it was. Maybe the journalist had sense enough not to put the real name in his article. Maybe he just chose an unusual replacement, to make sure he wouldn't use somebody's real name. But what about the editor(s) (if any) at AP and at the hundreds of newspapers running the piece? The name appears in the first line of the article: the "grabber" or whatever it's called. -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 2 04:15:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:15:06 -0600 Subject: skiddoo Message-ID: I don't endorse this etymology, just passing it on. From: Sunday, August 26, 1906 The Sunday [Williamsport PA] Grit - Local Edition page 8 col 2 "Skidoo" A Syrian Insult Resented by a Shawl Peddler, and a Scene Ensues in Court. The origin of the word "skidoo" has at last been established. The discovery was made in the Essex Market Police court, New York city. It is of Syrian origin and if you don't want to get into trouble don't say "skidoo" to a Syrian, because he is apt to take it seriously. At least Samuel Solomon, who was the cause of the discovery, took it that way. Solomon is a shawl merchant. Loaded with a choice collection of prayer shawls and rugs, he invaded the ghetto. He reached Stanton and Ridge streets late in the ??????. He was hungry and the luscious bananas on the cart of Jacob Smith made his mouth water. "How much?" said Solomon. "Cent apiece," replied Smith. "Too much," said Solomon. "Skidoo," replied Smith. Solomon glared angrily. "Twenty-three," repeated Smith. Then things began to happen. Solomon made a rush for Smith and Smith countered with a handful of overripe fruit. Just as things were waxing strenuous Policeman Wagner butted in and haled [sic] both to the Essex market court. "What is the trouble?" asked Magistrate Wahle. "He insulted me, chudge," replied Solomon. "How so?" asked the court. "He said 'skidoo' to me." "That's no insult." "Yes, it is. That's Syrian and it means something very disrespectful to my parents." "Well, it's English, too," said the court, "and it means 'beat it.' Now get out." From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 2 04:25:39 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:25:39 -0600 Subject: diner slang Message-ID: A Diner Slang Quiz John Clarke Gastronomica; Fall 2003; pg. 122 America's original quick-bite places -- the main-street soda fountain, the corner luncheonette, and the roadside diner -- shared a special, often secret, culture of language. During the Golden Age of slinging slang from 1925 to 1945, waitstaff and kitchen workers communicated in a colorful shorthand. How good is your slang? See if you can match the twelve sassy terms in Column A with the classic American home-style desserts in Column B. Bonus Question: "Give me Eve with the roof on, a crow slab covered in spla, maiden and tar, plus a stretch with frost and sissy sticks!" What's being ordered? 1. Ant paste A. Apple pie 2. Bellyache B. Chocolate pudding 3. Chinese Wedding Cake C. Custard pie 4. Gold fish D. Cruller 5. House boat E. Banana split 6. Matrimony knot F. Fudge 7. Magoo G. Bowl of strawberry gelatin 8. Ploughed field H. Ice cream sundae 9. Shivering Liz in I. Sliced peaches the hay 10. Slabs of sin J. Rice pudding 11. Snow White on a stick K. Turnover 12. Windbag L. Vanilla ice cream cone Answers: 1-B, 2-H, 3-J, 4-I, 5-E, 6-D, 7-C, 8-F, 9-G, 10-A, 11-L, 12-K Bonus Question: Apple pie with a top crust, chocolate pie covered in whipped cream, cherry pie and a mug of coffee, and a large Coke with crushed ice and two straws! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 2 04:50:57 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:50:57 -0600 Subject: sigalert Message-ID: BEHIND THE WHEEL; 'Traffic Talk' Translates Into Tie-Ups Avoided; Radio reporting on freeway conditions has a lingo all its own. But does it drive home the message to motorists?; [Home Edition] LISA LEFF. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 19, 2002. pg. B.2 " And what about the ubiquitous "SigAlert"? For the record, the CHP defines it as an unscheduled lane closure lasting at least half an hour. The familiar phrase, universally understood as meaning a bad traffic tie-up, was created in the mid-1950s by LAPD Police Chief William H. Parker as a tongue-in-cheek tribute to broadcast pioneer Loyd C. Sigmon. Sigmon, in a bid to improve ratings on the radio station he co- owned with Gene Autry, persuaded Parker to participate in an experiment in which officers would alert the station over special shortwave receivers whenever a freeway delay or other emergency was developing. As local legend has it, the reticent police chief supposedly quipped, "We're going to name this damn thing 'SigAlert.'" And the expression got stuck, just like all the baffled commuters." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 04:51:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:51:14 EST Subject: "That'll learn 'em!" (1923); Bonkers (Yonkers, Bronxville) Message-ID: THAT'LL LEARN 'EM ... THAT'LL LEARN--13,100 Google Hits, 8,120 Google Groups hits ... The Knicks played the Nets tonight. The Knicks' Stephon Marbury declared himself the best point guard on the planet. The Knicks' Jamal Crawford said there's no rivalry--the Nets stink. ... The Nets won the game. "That'll learn 'em!" posted one fan. ... This is not in the OED and not in HDAS. DARE has an entry for "learn" going back to 1769, but no "that'll learn him." There's one 1899 "I'd learn you." ... Nothing appears to show up until the 1920s, and then the expression seems to have become widespread in the 1930s. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _THE GORILLA AND THE GIRL; GORILLA AND THE GIRL _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=342339632&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104638454&clientId=65882) THOMAS BURKE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 23, 1923. p. XI4 (2 pages) ... First page: "That'll learn yeh to keep yeh tongue quiet. ... ... 2. _"Times" Daily Short Story; A PAIR OF SOCKS _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=368894492&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN ame=HNP&TS=1104638454&clientId=65882) OCTAVUS ROY COHEN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 14, 1927. p. 11 (1 page) : The big palooka starts for me, and in self-defense I hit. Bess squelas, "The one-two," she yells. "That'll learn him whose wife to insult!" ... ... _THAT'LL LEARN 'EM_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=228157202&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104639729&clie ntId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 20, 1951. p. C6 (1 page) ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Bismarck Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2oS7Q8uFj9mVcC6WXqZmz/8nyVnYmGViGw==) Wednesday, June 03, 1931 _Bismarck,_ (http://www.newspaperarch ive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bismarck+that) _North Dakota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north_dakota+that) ...to make a for 30 Pathfinder THAT'LL LEARN 'EM father likes the young eve to.....prominent official savs it pub- Hcitv that Capone and other He noted.. ... _Charleston Daily Mail _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2nC7gGdJOAml1nMhOaJmDhQjbtL4V7NJxQ==) Monday, July 04, 1932 _Charleston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:charleston+that) _West Virginia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:west_virginia+that) ...look after hisself for a bit. THAT'LL LEARN I'll be sor- ry to lose ou Maybe.....secretary. You know as well as I do that I must take anything that I can.. ... _Appleton Post Crescent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2ktCtNw4NUlTgCz8ir8TIE22e3BKI3+lFg==) Monday, April 08, 1929 _Appleton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+that) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+that) ...amused eyes and muttered, 'THAT'LL LEARN 'em to let But his "Ma" baking.....exclaimed blankly. "Here Let me have that receiver, Faith." "I'll do no such.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2rYynu+yLaeNjhJ8Wevnm1WWEFJK8xUIR0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, November 13, 1921 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+that) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+that) ...and Alf turned to tie door. '.'THAT'LL LEARN he panted." "I don't -want no more.....been some underhand -work going on, I'll dp all that man can do to put things.. ... _Newark Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2oHHF/C3HUebonLjoFogHAPqJleqkjQqbEIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, April 06, 1929 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+that) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+that) ...amused eyes and muttered, "THAT'LL LEARN. Mm to let trees alone. I'll go.....grin. Ijillian joined in "Just for that you'll wait a spell to hear the.. ... _Ironwood Daily Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2oKLDG5TtKTLS1gxpX4E8Ox5SA8Cl27YiEIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, April 01, 1929 _Ironwood,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+that) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+that) ...pump, merely with amused 'THAT'LL LEARN Miss Linda. Mueller, of.....no other entertainments of note for that date, It Is probable that the.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- BONKERS ... I thought today's New York Post "Home" section would be online, but I didn't see this article. It mentions a "micro-neighborhood" (that word again) of Yonker and Bronxville that's just "Bonkers." ... (GOOGLE) _Commentary: ZIP codes share the wealth_ (http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.html) ... It's an old joke in these parts that people blessed with the 10708 ZIP live neither in Yonkers nor Bronxville but in "Bonkers." Insanity notwithstanding, the ... www.nyjournalnews.com/ newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.html - 46k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TEZBiCa4-WMJ:www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.html+bonkers+yonkers+bronxville&h l=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.ht ml) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--The weather has been great and I was walking all over. The only problem was that it gets dark early and I found myself in Bed-Stuy, and that's not good. I walked on Graham Avenue and Manhattan Avenue, but didn't find a good place. ... I ate at Congee, 98 Bowery. The place has some nice write-ups in the window. It's always busy, mostly with a Chinese crowd. It was good, but I couldn't taste any vast difference from anywhere else. Someone at my table (a regular here) said the fried chicken is outstanding, but I didn't order that...There aren't tables for one, so I sat at a round table with other diners. In some ways, it's better that way since you can talk to other diners. I had the congee, and it was good, but it's still porridge. ... FYI, here's a review, both of the Congee restaurant and of Chinatown: ... _http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0307/sietsema.php_ (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0307/sietsema.php) ... Just as Fuzhou restaurants had become so numerous, especially along East Broadway, that there seemed no way to distinguish them; and just as the giant Hong Kong banquet and dim sum palaces had slunk off like dinosaurs looking for a place to die; and just as the Malaysian restaurants had stopped multiplying like the Shanghai and Vietnamese places before them, surrendering our enthusiasm in the process; so had the neighborhood seemed almost dead again, except to the throngs of Chinese shoppers who descend each day from all corners of the city to buy the freshest meats, fish, and produce, and the Noah's ark of dried sea creatures set out on the sidewalk in boxes, expecting nothing from Chinatown's myriad restaurants except a bowl of congee and a fried cruller. But Chinatown never stops remaking itself. Get a glimpse of its new face at Congee, which opened without fanfare on a stretch of the Bowery that hasn't seen a good restaurant in decades, if ever. Congee is obviously inspired by Congee Village, the neighborhood's biggest success story of the last decade, which, though it recently doubled in size, still requires 30-minute waits. The Congee Village formula incorporates dishes from Hong Kong and south China, throwing in things from the Chinese diaspora of Southeast Asia and America. On one hand are funky organ meats that most Occidentals wouldn't touch; on the other are American favorites like chow mein and fried chicken. You can blow a wad on abalone or shark's fin soup, but the lower end of the price range is equally well-served, with loads of dumplings, over-rice bargains, and, of course, congees. While Congee Village is located just south of Delancey Street, Congee is planted in the older Chinatown, in a high-ceilinged space that could have been a bank lobby or religious sanctuary. Bacchanalian grapes adorn the faux stained-glass windows, and grapes made from Christmas ornaments dangle from the ceiling. Despite the vinic motif, wine is nowhere to be found, except in the red rice-wine vinegar thoughtfully served with soups, the traditional start of a south Chinese meal. Eight precious fish maw soup ($9.95, easily enough for four) is particularly good, though after identifying scallops, squid, shrimp, and the maws, which are cottony like the ends of Q-tips, we gave up counting. A dash of vinegar sends the soup into orbit. The menu includes a whopping 252 dishes in 15 groupings, and, even with large groups of diners and three visits, we could only scratch the surface. The best dish was the long-winded "sauteed dried squid and dried shrimp with green and yellow chives" ($16.95), looking like a haystack set in a sunny field. Second place went to salt baked squid ($8.95), fresh baby creatures fried with cashews and thinly sliced jalapeños, not as spicy as it sounds. Fried chicken ($9 for a large half) is a restaurant specialty, rendered crisp, heaped with chopped scallions, and lapped with a featherweight garlic dipping sauce. Skip the Shanghai soup dumplings: thick-skinned, undersouped, and leaden, they're clearly out of the restaurant's territory. In fact, skip all the dumplings— the glory days of dim sum palaces like Golden Unicorn and Triple Eights can never be revisited. But by all means order congee, slightly more delicate and gingery than Congee Village's. The announced specialty is superb from the luxury bowl of lobster ($5.75), which really does contain a decent amount of crustacean, to the peasant grab-bag of sampan ($3.50), topped with roast salted peanuts like some baseball-stadium snack. This rice gruel, also known as jook, is a mainstay of Cantonese food. So ultimately, Congee represents the restoration of Cantonese food to its traditional Chinatown bastion, in a new, more versatile guise. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 07:40:24 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:40:24 EST Subject: Sigalert (1954) Message-ID: MISC. OFF-TOPIC: FAT ALBERT--An interesting part of my Saturday walk was seeing a store called FAT ALBERT. Outside the store, on the sidewalk, they were selling DVDs of FAT ALBERT for "fie dollars." SKIDOO--It ain't Syrian. I explained this term in the old ADS-L archives. It was combined with "23" by vaudeville performer Billy Vann. 2004--Yeah, I took some trips to Mali, Senegal, Ghana, Namibia, Panama, Bhutan, India, Singapore, and such, published two books, started a web site, and was featured in articles in the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, and Toronto Globe and Mail. But the bottom line is, I didn't make a single bloody nickel from all that. The Times article was twelve years overdue; it was humiliating to smile for the photo. I decided to stay in town for the Big Apple Fest summer, and not a single radio or tv program interviewed me. I have still not been on radio or tv anywhere in New York or in Chicago; nor has my work on the names of those cities made the evening news.. I was in town and they were short judges, so I thought it would be a good idea to do parking tickets five days a week again. In my spare time, I begged (unsuccessfully) to pay someone for health care. And on a vacation from all that to Bhutan, the tour guide told me that I was too old to be loved, and I was on the internet too much, and my friend David Shulman, well, he was 93 (I had said about 92, maybe 93) and had it coming. Yeah, it was a great year in a wonderful life. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SIGALERT Mr. Mullins posted: . The familiar phrase, universally understood as meaning a bad traffic tie-up, was created in the mid-1950s by LAPD Police Chief William H. Parker as a tongue-in-cheek tribute to broadcast pioneer Loyd C. Sigmon. ... ... (GOOGLE) _LA Observed: Loyd Sigmon, LA traffic icon was 95 * Archives_ (http://www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html) ... Loyd Sigmon, who created the traffic warning while a co-owner of KMPC radio, died yesterday in an Oklahoma assisted living facility. ... www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html - 101k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-DgXZPA7mZoJ:www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html+loyd+Sigm on+died&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html) ... Loyd Sigmon, L.A. traffic icon was 95 * Get ready to hear yet again, over the next 24-48 hours, the story of how radio SigAlerts came to be part of the Los Angeles lexicon. Loyd Sigmon, who created the traffic warning while a co-owner of KMPC radio, died yesterday in an Oklahoma assisted living facility. LATimes.com has an _obit _ (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-060304sig_lat,1,3425046.story?coll=la-home-headlines) by Roy Rivenburg. A SigAlert, issued when one or more lanes will be blocked for at least half an hour, originally warned of other dangers On Labor Day 1955, the first SigAlert was broadcast by six radio stations warning of a train wreck near Union Station. Other early bulletins included five warnings of rabid dogs and a ship collision in Los Angeles Harbor. One time, a pharmacist who made a potentially fatal error in filling a prescription called police, who issued a SigAlert. The customer heard it in time... The term has become so familiar that it was added to the Oxford English Dictionary. ... ... It's in the Oxford English Dictionary? Where? ... And if it began in 1955, we shouldn't see it in 1954, should we? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 17 November 1954, Los Angeles Times, pg. 9: Finger-tip pressure on the red button of a device called a Sigalert in the City Hall last night cut out the regular program of a radio station as Civil Defense officials went on the air to demonstrate a new warning system. (...) The device was designed by Loyd Sigmon, KMPC official. ... ... 25 October 1955, Los Angeles Times, pg. 16: Traffic authorities and the Los Angeles Police Department are continuously examining new methods of making current, overcrowded freeways more efficient. "Sig-alert," a warning system whereby motorists now can be warned in advance by radio of freeway jams and congestion, has been out into operation. For this reason, motorists driving the freeways are advised to keep their car radio on at all times. ... ... 26 November 1955, Los Angeles Times, pg. A1: _Raid Siren Test_ _Late--Wrong_ _Button Pushed_ (...) Sheriff Biscailuz tested the county air-raid-siren system by pushing a button in the radio communications room of the Hall of Justice which activated sirens in West Hollywood, Lennox, Downey and Lakewood. This new attack warning system is the invention of Lloyd (sic) Sigmon and is known as the "Sig Alert." (...) A subaudio signal was also aired over Radio Stations KFI, KNX and KMPC. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 2 08:06:34 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:06:34 -0500 Subject: intermedia (Higgins 1965, Coleridge 1812?) Message-ID: "Intermedia" is only listed in the OED as a plural of "intermedium"-- nothing yet for the sense that developed out of the avant-garde Fluxus movement of the '60s. Nothing in MWCD11 either. RHUD has it, but only as an adjective: intermedia —adj. using or involving several media, as dance, slides, electronic music, film, and painting, simultaneously; multimedia. http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/intermedia Fluxus cofounder Dick Higgins (1938-1998) discussed the term's coinage in a 1976 piece for _American Speech_: "The Origin of 'Happening'" (in Miscellany), by Dick Higgins American Speech, Vol. 51, No. 3/4 (Autumn-Winter 1976), p. 271. As _happening_ came into general usage, it ceased to be useful as a technical term for artists. Many of us have regretted the loss. I tried to avoid the error of using a word that was too adaptable, such as _happening_, by my coinage _intermedia_ (foreword to _The Four Suits_ by Philip Corner et al. [New York: Something Else Press, 1965]; "Intermedia," _Something Else Newsletter_, February 1966; with a nod to Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who used the word in a letter once but never systematically developed the concept). _Intermedia_ covers those art forms that are conceptual hybrids between two or more traditional media, such as concrete poetry (visual art and poetry), happenings (visual art, music, and theater), and sound poetry (music and literature). The term is sufficiently technical in effect that, though it has enjoyed some popular use, it is still applied only to the arts and, except for some careless confusion with "mixed media" (in which the elements remain distinct though simultaneous), is usually applied in my original sense. The original "Intermedia" piece (written in 1965, published in Feb. 1966) is reprinted in Higgins' _Horizons: the Poetics and Theory of the Intermedia_ (1984) and is also available online: http://www.ubu.com/papers/higgins_intermedia.html [from a 1981 postscript:] The vehicle I chose, the word "intermedia," appears in the writings of Samuel Taylor Coleridge in 1812 in exactly its contemporary sense -- to define works which fall conceptually between media that are already known, and I had been using the term for several years in lectures and discussions before my little essay was written. I have yet to actually see the Coleridge passage from which Higgins claims to have borrowed the term. Dick's daughter Hannah Higgins discusses "intermedia" in her book _The Fluxus Experience_ (2002) and writes in a footnote: "The Coleridge citation dates to 1812, but I have not located it in a specific work." http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0520228677/?v=search-inside&keywords=coleridge Hmm, if Higgins' own daughter can't locate the passage, could it perhaps have been a figment of his very productive imagination? Some early cites for "intermedia": 1966 _New York Times_ 20 Mar. X22/2 The Something Else Press, New York's farthest-out art book publisher, is swinging cheerfully into its second non-profit year. ... Its well-turned out books deal with what it calls "intermedia," art that falls between such established media as sculpture, painting, drama, music (Something Else, see?). ... Through Something Else, Higgins is out to spread the intermedia word. 1966 _New York Times_ 10 Jul. (Magazine) 31/1 The Open Stage is a psychedelic discotheque, sometimes called intermedia or multimedia, in which slides, movies and kinetic sounds light the trips fantastic. 1966 _New York Times_ 14 Aug. (Book Review) 2/2 "Happenings" and other "inter-media" productions are suggesting new uses for the stage and new means of theatrical production. 1967 _New York Times_ 23 Aug. 39/3 "Inter-media are drawn from the several arts," he said. "The repertories in each of the arts are no longer expressive." 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 22 Oct. (Calendar) 48/2 His own personal interest runs strongly to intermedia art, and his first show indicates, in its makeup, the direction he thinks the arts are taking-- a tendency for the arts to express their meanings in terms of other arts or in ways not previously associated with fine art. 1967 _Film Quarterly_ 21 (Autumn) 3/1 Similarly, some of the first intermedia shows were put on by Dadaists in the twenties. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 2 08:24:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:24:13 -0500 Subject: multiscreen (cinema) Message-ID: * multiscreen, a. (OED3 1967) 1961 _Film Quarterly_ 14 (Spring) 35 At the Brussels and Moscow Expositions multiscreen arrangements were displayed. 1964 _New York Times_ 10 May 10 X12/8 True, the multiscreen projection provides some fascinating cinematic tricks, but not much more than could be done with multiple images on one large screen area. 1965 _New York Times_ 13 Feb. 10/2 While "To the Fair" does not have the novel multiscreen aspect of "To Be Alive," it does have much the same joi de vivre and lively pictorial momentum that were so pleasing in the Johnson's Wax film. * multiscreen, a. = multiplex (OED3 1991) 1971 _Lima News_ (Ohio) 29 Aug. B14/1 (heading) Multi-screen theater idea cuts employees, ups profits. 1974 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 14 Oct. 39/2 It will then concentrate on the first-run multi-screen units in shopping centers. 1976 _Wall Street Journal_ 14 July 7/2 United Artists Theatre Circuit Inc., San Francisco, agreed in principle to purchase 12 multiscreen motion pictures theater locations from Carrols Development Corp., Syracuse, NY. * multiscreen, n. (OED3 1975) 1962 _News Record_ (North Hills, Penn.) 22 Aug. 21/1 Most of the film is in color, but the producers have not hesitated to use black and white film when it was the best available to make a certain point. Thus, the multi-screen often reflects five color scenes and one black-and-white one. 1964 _New York Times_ 10 May 10 X1/8 I speak of such unconventional items as ... the breath-taking combinations of mechanical conveyors and multiscreens displayed in the United States Pavilion and in the International Business Machines show. 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 13 July IV1/1 Stan VanDerbeek's exercise with multi-screens and live dancers proved as graceful as it is complicated. * multiscreen, n. = multiplex (OED3 1999) 1974 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 14 Oct. 39/2 Of that total, only 58 will be single screen units, after allowing for conversion of 24 houses to multi-screens. 1988 _Guardian_ (London) 15 Oct. (Nexis) It is also spending Pounds 20 million over the next two years converting the bigger cinemas in its 80-strong chain into multi-screens. 1990 _Times_ (London) 27 Feb. (Nexis) Enthusiasm for the cinema helps and the company is keen to promote from within; the general manager of Britain's first inner-city multiscreen, at Bayswater in London, started with UCI as an usher. 1993 _Buffalo News_ (New York) 15 Jan. 3 (Nexis) If so, consider that for a couple months now adults and uncompromisingly serious movie-goers have seen mall-theater multiscreens tied up with "Aladdin," "Home Alone 2" and other choice holiday cookies. * multiscreening (various senses - not yet in OED) 1960 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Jan. II7/3 Jerry Wald's "Beloved Infidel," the bitter-sweet love story of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Sheilah Graham, opens Wednesday for multiscreening at 18 theaters and drive-ins including the Los Angles, Iris, Century and Englewood. 1992 _Guardian_ (London) 6 July 34 (Nexis) In its heyday there were more than 5,000 cinemas in Britain. If you discount the distortions caused by multi-screening there are now around 1,000. 2001 _Time_ 3 Sep. 81 (Proquest) But if viewers sample the smart, expertly filmed pilot, which interweaves its stories using supercool multiscreening reminiscent of movies like Timecode, 24's would-be assassins should have as little luck as Squeaky Fromme. * multiscreened (various senses - not yet in OED) 1964 _Film Quarterly_ 17 (Spring) 39/2 Experimentation in general, as in Lehky's multi-screened _The Parasite_, is more in evidence than it is in the typical Hollywood cartoon. 1974 _Washington Post_ 9 Apr. B2/4 There is a multi-screened thematic film, several films of animal competition and cooperation, and an animated film on the transference of energy. 1978 _New York Times_ 5 Feb. 15/1 The downtown movie house has declined, but there has been an increase of about 25 percent, to 15,000, in the total number of theater screens in the country because of a rapid growth of multiscreened theaters in suburban shopping centers. 1986 _Toronto Star_ 6 Sep. S17 (Nexis) I'm sure some electronics geniuses are hard at work on just such a commodity and this is the time of the year that a multi-screened set would be a much-wished-for item among you hard-core sports fans. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 09:16:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:16:23 EST Subject: "Up Close and Personal" (Roone Arledge's Wide World of Sports) (1972) Message-ID: (NEW YORK TIMES, "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN BY WILLIAM SAFIRE, 1-2-2005) This past summer, at the Republican convention in New York, the former House majority leader Richard Armey took me aside at a fat-cat function and whispered, ''Personal is the word, not private.'' Sure enough, in all Republican presentations of elements of the future ''ownership society,'' the warm, almost cuddly word personal -- as in ''up close and personal,'' a phrase used in The Times in 1915 to describe the closeness of the Rev. Selden Delaney with his parishioners, later popularized as the title of a 1996 movie starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert Redford -- is the term used to escape from private, a word that is the antithesis of public and is seen to offend most blue-state citizens. (That's a complicated sentence that wishes it were merely complex.) ... ... Every week you gotta correct this guy. This is wrong in TWO ways. Thank goodness he's an ADS member and listens to you. YOU write to Times Corrections for me. ... The 1996 stinker titled "Up Close and Personal" had popularized this? By the three people who saw it? ... I remember that Ted Koppel said "up close and personal" for years, from way-back-when. Koppel credits ABC's Roone Arledge. ... When I type "up close and personal" into my SABR Proquest subscriptiom, I don't get 1915 at all. I get 1972 and this: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Display Ad 45 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=93418511&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11046562 78&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 25, 1972. p. 67 (1 page) ... Watch the greatest athletes under the sun...up close and personal...the ABC way! ... ... ... William Safire cites this, but it isn't "up close and personal" at all: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Experiment in Personal Ministry Tried Here; Appointment of Rev. Dr. Selden P. Delaney as Pastor at the Church of St. Mary the Virgin May Solve Pressing Problems of Church Work_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101571507&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104656691& clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 14, 1915. p. SM20 (1 page) ... Rectors have so many responsibilities and must discharge so many obligations that it is practically impossible for them to keep up close personal acquaintanceships with the parishioners. ... ... ... _http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html_ (http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html) By the time Roone Arledge became president of ABC News in 1977, it's safe to say he already merited a lifetime achievement award for his accomplishments as president of ABC Sports. In fact, Sports Illustrated selected Mr. Arledge as one of the individuals who "have most significantly altered or elevated the world of sports," ranking him third behind Muhammad Ali and Michael Jordan. Under his leadership, ABC Sports programming set standards that others have tried to emulate. During his years at ABC Sports, Mr. Arledge personally produced coverage of an unprecedented 10 Olympic Games. He is cerdited with creating instant replay, slow motion and advanced (and informative) graphics. Mr Arledge's concept of "ABC's Wide World of Sports" introduced superb coverage of offbeat sporting events and solid news reporting about sports personalities. His creation of "NFL Monday Night Football" can easily be credited with changing America's TV sports-viewing habits. And the phrases "up close and personal" and "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" are now part of our vernacular. ... ... ... ... _http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html_ (http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html) Lulling Viewers Into a State of Complicity 'The approach of a storyteller seemed more apt.' By Ted Koppel Roone Arledge, the legendary broadcaster who invented ABC's "Wide World Of Sports" and "Nightline," may be unaware of his debt to Mark Twain, but it exists nevertheless. The great American humorist once observed that "we are all ignorant; just about different things." That could very well have been the inspiration for the fashion in which Roone began so many of his "Wide World" segments. Back in the days when ABC had access to none of the major sports events; when football, basketball and baseball contracts were sewed up by the other major networks, Arledge fashioned a hugely successful series out of the arcane and secondary sports that received little or no attention anywhere else. Since almost nothing was known about the champions of ski jumping or downhill racing, let alone the masters of hurling or the luge, Roone created an introductory segment that he called "up close and personal." The theory was simple: Give the public a video sketch of these unknown athletes, let us see their training methods, introduce us to their families, and we would have an investment in their success or failure. We would bring a level of interest to the events in which they competed. The concept worked brilliantly. Among the virtues of a good idea are its portability and adaptability. When we began "Nightline" in 1980, I took Mark Twain's admonition to heart and stole Roone's idea from "Wide World of Sports." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 09:56:55 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:56:55 EST Subject: "We are all ignorant, just about different things" (Rogers, not Twain) Message-ID: WE ARE ALL IGNORANT+DIFFERENT THINGS--227 Google hits, 102 Google Groups hits WE ARE ALL IGNORATN+DIFFERENT THINGS+ROGERS--51 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits WE ARE ALL IGNORANT+DIFFERENT THINGS+TWAIN--30 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits (Some of the Twain hits here cite this as a Rogers quote, but Twain is on the same page - ed.) ... ... Remember my last post? Ted Koppel's speech at Harvard? I don't know what Fred Shapiro's quotation dictionary will have, but the quotation is from Will Rogers, not Mark Twain. But hey, Mark Twain said everything, didn't he? And Charles Dana coined "the Windy City"? What proof do you need? ... And they're dead and can't sue. And the corrections are never professionally admitted--why bother? And the same errors get made over and over and over... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _WILL ROGERS SAID:; "We are all ignorant. We are just ignorant about different things" _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=449841372&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104658173&clie ntId=65882) Donald Culross Peattie. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 27, 1952. p. G2 (1 page) ... ... ... _http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html_ (http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html) Lulling Viewers Into a State of Complicity 'The approach of a storyteller seemed more apt.' By Ted Koppel Roone Arledge, the legendary broadcaster who invented ABC's "Wide World Of Sports" and "Nightline," may be unaware of his debt to Mark Twain, but it exists nevertheless. The great American humorist once observed that "we are all ignorant; just about different things." From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jan 2 13:40:57 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:40:57 -0500 Subject: "Cat faces" on tomatoes (1934) In-Reply-To: <20050101195722.D17278@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2005, at 19:57, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > In the three 1934-1936 citations, all from the Chicago Daily Tribune > (written by the same reporter?), "cat face" is a count nominal; the > 1879 > lumber citation from the OED has a count use and what may be a > non-count > use, "the cat face or knots", or not: the ellipsis there is the OED's, > not > Barry's. > > The rec.gardens quote is non-count. The other modern ones are all > quoting or > derived from the New York Times article, so they aren't independent > sources. > (The Gawker cite is furthermore a joke and shouldn't be counted for > anything.) They seem to refer to the appearance of the fruit as a > whole. I've also found "cat face", v., but in most cases it's a the adjectival "cat-faced" or a count noun. 1988 Melissa Balmain Weiner _Orange County Register_ (Jan. 14) “Irvine farmers examine effects of chill on strawberries” p. 1: Brown strawberries, almost-black strawberries, lumpy, warty cat-faced strawberries: They darken the fields of A.G. Kawamura, outnumbering the ripe, red berries by two to one in some places.…Temperatures dipped to about 30 degrees Fahrenheit the last week of December, not quite low enough to kill entire plants, they said. Winds at times were strong enough to dent, or “cat-face” http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/cat_face/ Grant Barrett From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jan 2 15:15:50 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:15:50 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: <20050101221146.81930.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I found nothing directly related to the origins of the name "seven-toed Pete." There's a serialized story published (1926 George Marsh _Indiana Weekly Messenger_ "The Valley of Voices," Jan. 21, p.2) about man traveling in northern Canada where a Frenchman describes the Windigo as having "seex-seven toe on fore feet"and there's some discussion of putting one's cards on the table, but only in the "tell me everything" sense, not in the poker sense. This is just a red herring. I also found a record of a child "born without a tongue, with six fingers and a thumb on the left hand, seven on the right hand, and seven toes on each foot, besides the great toe" in an article referring to 1761, datelined 19 Feb. at Copenhagen, and published in the _Boston Weekly News-Letter_ 10 June 1762, p. 2, but it's got nothing to do with Pete unless the child was named Per. Too early, anyway. Actual cites, for the record, but also not that helpful: 1927 _Lincoln State Journal_ "Seven Card Poker O.K." p. 14: CONDON, Ore., June 29--(UP) There is the confirmed poker player who declares that a dealer calling for "Seven-toed Pete" should be shot but times change. Now a card player in Condon will be jailed if he plays any other form of the national pastime. Too much gambling, decided the Condon city fathers and they passed a law prohibiting "all five-card games." Other games are permitted. 1931 _Los Angeles Times_ "Draw Poker Systems to Clash in Seattle"(Dec. 16) p. 7: SEATTLE, Dec. 15 (A)--One hundred and fifty hands will be played and none "of these new-fangled games like 'spit-in-the-ocean,' 'seven-toed Pete' and 'deuces wild' will be permitted." (Next one is part of a long story about two rich guys gambling with two poor guys, but there's no relevant history for seven-toed Pete.) 1937 Westbrook Pegler _Washington Post_ "Fair Enough" (Dec. 11) p. 9: In the hope of stimulating the game, the house just abandoned the regular rules and began to deal a lot of crazy games like seven-toed Pete and high-low with red sevens and the one-eyed Jacks wild. "This ain't poker," one of the rich guys said finally. "This ain't even rummy or casino or anything. Cash me in. I'm going to quit." 1949 Walter Haight _Washington Post_ "Poker a la Femme: Haight Gets Fan Letter, Proud of It" (Mar. 1) p. 17: The men in our group who finally woke up to realize that their wives had muscled permanently on their Saturday night penny ante game, were pretty sheepish about this wild-card stuff at first, and every so often would manfully deal a hand of "real poker," with many a loud remark about the virtues of same. But you've got to admit that after several rousing rounds of High-Low, Seven-Toed Pete with deuces wild, straight stud seems colorless and the pot kind of meager. (This next one's just a fun story but not in the least about seven-toed Pete, except for a mention.) 1956 Gene Sherman _L.A. Times_ "Cityside" (May 8) p. 2: All the time he is having the boys over for a friendly game in the kitchen...Well, his wife's view of this got dimmer and dimmer until one evening recently the gentleman and his buddies were dealing in the kitchen she came in and announced she was taking the kids and driving to L.A. to her folks' house....The gentleman let her and the kids go, whereupon he immediately chartered a plane, grabbed the cards and hustled his buddies into taxi for the airport. When the little woman and her brood arrived by car at her parents' home here, the gentleman and his buddies were sitting comfortably in the kitchen, coats off, beer opened, playing seven-toed Pete. "Cut the cards for luck, honey," the gentleman greeted his wife. And honestly, she couldn't help bust out laughing. Grant Barrett On Jan 1, 2005, at 17:11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card > stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this > name? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 2 16:48:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:48:58 -0500 Subject: "We are all ignorant, just about different things" (Rogers, not Twain) In-Reply-To: <200501020957.j029v8cR000852@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 Bapopik at aol.com wrote: > _WILL ROGERS SAID:; "We are all ignorant. We are just ignorant about > different things" _ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=449841372&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104658173&clie > ntId=65882) > Donald Culross Peattie. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, > Calif.: Jan 27, 1952. p. G2 (1 page) The quote is "Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects," from Will Rogers, The Illiterate Digest (1924). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 17:12:06 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:12:06 EST Subject: "Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects" (Rogers, 1924) Message-ID: I see it now. ... 31 August 1924, New York Times, pg. XX2: You know everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Jan 2 17:17:22 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:17:22 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [THEL] Do You Speak American Message-ID: My Sunday paper had the first item mentioned in two places: the TV section and Parade Magazine. Barbara >From: Dan Mosser >To: thel at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [THEL] Do You Speak American >List-Id: Teaching the History of the English Language > >Wednesday on PBS, Robert McNeil's new "Do You Speak American?" has >its premier. My students having been longing for a more current >version of American Tongues--let's hope this is close. >(http://www.pbs.org/previews/speak_american/) > >There's also a new (expensive) set of videos on "The Adventure of >English, 500 A.D. to 2000" (Films for the Humanities), so possibly >"The Story of English" can be superceded if one's library can afford >the nearly $1000 price tag. > >Happy New Year THELions. >-- > >Dan Mosser From davemarc at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 2 18:08:29 2005 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:08:29 -0500 Subject: WOTY Message-ID: Here's wishing everyone a great time at the glamorous WOTY ceremony. My suggestions, for your consideration, in order of descending preference: "Best. Episode. Ever." (and variants) "heart" (word/symbol, as in "I Heart Huckabees") "Chrismukkah" (and similar winter holiday fusions) "biotch" (and alternative spellings) "shout out" (for getting more and more mainstream) I've written a little more about this at http://blogabouttown.blogspot.com/ Kibitzing, David From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jan 2 18:38:56 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:38:56 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [THEL] Do You Speak American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CLOSE! Wait til you see some of the actors! dInIs >My Sunday paper had the first item mentioned in two places: the TV >section and Parade Magazine. > >Barbara > >>From: Dan Mosser >>To: thel at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Subject: [THEL] Do You Speak American >>List-Id: Teaching the History of the English Language >> >>Wednesday on PBS, Robert McNeil's new "Do You Speak American?" has >>its premier. My students having been longing for a more current >>version of American Tongues--let's hope this is close. >>(http://www.pbs.org/previews/speak_american/) >> >>There's also a new (expensive) set of videos on "The Adventure of >>English, 500 A.D. to 2000" (Films for the Humanities), so possibly >>"The Story of English" can be superceded if one's library can afford >>the nearly $1000 price tag. >> >>Happy New Year THELions. >>-- >> >>Dan Mosser -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 2 22:11:00 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:00 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: <20050101221146.81930.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud >poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this name? At N'archive I find this from 1922, also "seven-card Pete" from 1926. I don't know whether these are early or interesting. There are also poker games called "three-toed Pete" and "lamebrain Pete". Why "Pete"? I don't know. (Why "stud" for that matter?) Which came first? Was there a basic game called "[five-card] Pete"? There is a (once popular) card game named "Pedro": any relation? Why "seven"? Seven cards, I guess. Why "toed"? The seven cards make a hand, not a foot, so shouldn't it be "seven-fingered"? One possibility is the "seven-toed" designation originally referred to a cat: polydactyly is much more common in cats than in humans, and a cat with a seven-toed paw is not too rare: maybe somebody thought Pete the 7-toed cat provided good luck at the card table, or something like that. -- Doug Wilson From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 22:39:37 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:39:37 EST Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. Gonzales Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina Coast From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Sun Jan 2 23:32:42 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:32:42 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words In-Reply-To: <200501021439512.SM01664@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This was a great find. I've added it to http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html Anyone know the etymology of "Gullah" ? best, Karen Ellis At 05:39 PM 1/2/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jerry E Kane >Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary >http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > >Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. Gonzales > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina Coast <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jan 3 00:53:02 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:53:02 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 2:11 PM -0800 1/1/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for >>seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore >>concerning this name? >> >>JL >> >Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving >three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, >roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed >Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. > >Larry ~~~~~~~~ A friend sent me a dried plant specimen, from Oregon, of something locally called "Three-toed Pete". It looked very much like a clover we have here called Birdfoot trefoil (/Lotus corniculatus/). A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 3 01:28:49 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:28:49 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: Perhaps an African tribal name, Golas. Another conjecture is that it derives from Angola. See OEDs and WBD Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 3 02:08:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:08:17 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: See also DA (Dictionary of Americanisms) and Juba to Jive (by Clarence Major). American Dialect Society on Sunday, January 02, 2005 at 8:28 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barnhart >Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps an African tribal name, Golas. > >Another conjecture is that it derives from Angola. > >See OEDs and WBD > >Regards, >David > >barnhart at highlands.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 3 03:49:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:49:45 -0500 Subject: Bush on Rove Message-ID: According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." -Wilson Gray From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Mon Jan 3 03:43:56 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Patrick Cassidy) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:43:56 EST Subject: Sanas of Sucker, 2005 Message-ID: Sucker Sa/ch U/r (pron. sawhk ur) A fresh well-fed fellow. A new "fat cat." Sa/ch (pron sawhk): a well-fed person. A luxurious person. Fig. A wealthy person. (Dineen, O’Donaill). Ur : Fresh, new, moist, tender, raw Nil truagh do'n sach sathach an t-ocrach riamh, the well-fed person never pities the poor person.” (Dineen, p. 936). Reracinating the American "sucker" into the Irish language reveals its hidden class aspect. A true Sach ur (sucker) should never be hungry. Only the "well-fed" and "self-satisfied" qualify. In Irish. Here are a few "suckers" from the Nobel Prize winning Irish American playwright Eugene O'Neill, the son of the actor, James O'Neill, an Irish famine emigrant, who had fled the mass death of mid-19th century Ireland for Buffalo's disease-ridden Irish-American slum (saol luim). Here's a middle class sucker.. SID: “Yes, everyone knows you’re an old sucker.” (Ah Wilderness, p. 26 .) Sid is the brother-in-law of a small town Connecticut newspaper publisher. In the early 20th century, the educated American upper classes (airde d'airde) put pizzazz (piosa theas, pron. peesa hass, a piece of excitement) into their American-English with American-Irish "slang." Here's "sucker" in the 1912 NYC saol luim. HARRY HOPE: “Cut out the glad hand, Hickey. D’you think I’m a sucker? I know you, bejees, you sneaking, lying drummer!” (Iceman Cometh, p. 654) + And back in middle-class Connecticut...Jamie is James O'Neill, Jr., Eugene's alcoholic self-destructive older brother. JAMIE: “...Happy roads is bunk. Weary roads is right. Get you nowhere fast. That’s where I’ve got – nowhere. Where everyone lands in the end, even if most suckers won’t admit it. “ (Long Day’s Journey into Night, p. 161) + And then back to NYC and the 1920s, a decade, like this one, that turns the words sach ur (sucker) upside down, in a world of fat cat, self-satisfied upper-class grifters (grafado/ir) and hungry working-class generic American suckers. ERIE: “But hell, I always keep my noggin working, booze or no booze, I’m no sucker. What was I sayin’? Oh, some drunk. I sure hit the high spots. You shoulda seen the doll I made night before last. And did she take me to the cleaners. I’m a sucker for blondes.” (Hughie, p. 267) It is the úr in sách úr that keeps the “well-fed fellow” new and fresh and ripe to be fleeced like a Donegal sheep. “There is a sucker born every minute,” Mike Mc Donald (High King of the Chicago Gamblers), 1880-1903. Suckers and Dead Rabbits A “rabbit sucker” or “ráibéad sa/ch u/r,” means “a big, fresh well-fed fellow” and appears in amateur lexicologist, and warden of The Tombs Prison, George Matsell’s 1859 slang dictionary, Vocabulum: The Rogue's Lexicon. Raibead means a “big hulking person” in Irish and sounds like “Rabbit” to English speaking ears. It is the source of the phoney gang moniker “Dead Rabbit.” Of course, there was no gang in NYC called The Dead Rabbits. In the 1850s a “ dead raibead” was just NY-Irish for a “real big lug.” Sach ur spelled “sucker” is the last word -- as two disguised Irish words -- in Eugene O'Neill's final play Hughie, set appropriately in 1928. A year of the Sucker -- like this one may prove to be. Erie: He clicks the dice in his hand -- thoughtfully. “Y’know it’s time I stopped carryin’ the torch for Hughie... He’s gone. Like we all gotta go... It’s all in the racket, huh?” His soul is purged of grief, his confidence restored. “I shoot two bits.” Night Clerk: Manfully, with an excited dead-pan expression he hopes resembles Arnold Rothstein’s “I fade you.” Erie Throws the dice. “Four’s my point.” Gathers them up swiftly and throws again. “Four it is.” He takes the money. “Easy when you got my luck –and know how. Huh, Charlie?” He chuckles, giving the Night Clerk the slyly amused, contemptuous, affectionate wink with which a Wise Guy regales a Sucker ( Sách úr, a new "fat cat"). (Hughie, p. 294) Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of California San Francisco 1.2. 05 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 03:55:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:55:04 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: Found about 50 exx. on the Net for "Three-Toed Pete." It's new to me. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Seven-Toed Pete" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 2:11 PM -0800 1/1/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for >seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore >concerning this name? > >JL > Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 04:00:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:00:40 -0800 Subject: "Up Close and Personal" (Roone Arledge's Wide World of Sports) (1972) Message-ID: I began hearing "up close and personal" everywhere in 1984. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Up Close and Personal" (Roone Arledge's Wide World of Sports) (1972) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (NEW YORK TIMES, "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN BY WILLIAM SAFIRE, 1-2-2005) This past summer, at the Republican convention in New York, the former House majority leader Richard Armey took me aside at a fat-cat function and whispered, ''Personal is the word, not private.'' Sure enough, in all Republican presentations of elements of the future ''ownership society,'' the warm, almost cuddly word personal -- as in ''up close and personal,'' a phrase used in The Times in 1915 to describe the closeness of the Rev. Selden Delaney with his parishioners, later popularized as the title of a 1996 movie starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert Redford -- is the term used to escape from private, a word that is the antithesis of public and is seen to offend most blue-state citizens. (That's a complicated sentence that wishes it were merely complex.) ... ... Every week you gotta correct this guy. This is wrong in TWO ways. Thank goodness he's an ADS member and listens to you. YOU write to Times Corrections for me. ... The 1996 stinker titled "Up Close and Personal" had popularized this? By the three people who saw it? ... I remember that Ted Koppel said "up close and personal" for years, from way-back-when. Koppel credits ABC's Roone Arledge. ... When I type "up close and personal" into my SABR Proquest subscriptiom, I don't get 1915 at all. I get 1972 and this: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Display Ad 45 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=93418511&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11046562 78&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 25, 1972. p. 67 (1 page) ... Watch the greatest athletes under the sun...up close and personal...the ABC way! ... ... ... William Safire cites this, but it isn't "up close and personal" at all: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Experiment in Personal Ministry Tried Here; Appointment of Rev. Dr. Selden P. Delaney as Pastor at the Church of St. Mary the Virgin May Solve Pressing Problems of Church Work_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101571507&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104656691& clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 14, 1915. p. SM20 (1 page) ... Rectors have so many responsibilities and must discharge so many obligations that it is practically impossible for them to keep up close personal acquaintanceships with the parishioners. ... ... ... _http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html_ (http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html) By the time Roone Arledge became president of ABC News in 1977, it's safe to say he already merited a lifetime achievement award for his accomplishments as president of ABC Sports. In fact, Sports Illustrated selected Mr. Arledge as one of the individuals who "have most significantly altered or elevated the world of sports," ranking him third behind Muhammad Ali and Michael Jordan. Under his leadership, ABC Sports programming set standards that others have tried to emulate. During his years at ABC Sports, Mr. Arledge personally produced coverage of an unprecedented 10 Olympic Games. He is cerdited with creating instant replay, slow motion and advanced (and informative) graphics. Mr Arledge's concept of "ABC's Wide World of Sports" introduced superb coverage of offbeat sporting events and solid news reporting about sports personalities. His creation of "NFL Monday Night Football" can easily be credited with changing America's TV sports-viewing habits. And the phrases "up close and personal" and "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" are now part of our vernacular. ... ... ... ... _http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html_ (http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html) Lulling Viewers Into a State of Complicity 'The approach of a storyteller seemed more apt.' By Ted Koppel Roone Arledge, the legendary broadcaster who invented ABC's "Wide World Of Sports" and "Nightline," may be unaware of his debt to Mark Twain, but it exists nevertheless. The great American humorist once observed that "we are all ignorant; just about different things." That could very well have been the inspiration for the fashion in which Roone began so many of his "Wide World" segments. Back in the days when ABC had access to none of the major sports events; when football, basketball and baseball contracts were sewed up by the other major networks, Arledge fashioned a hugely successful series out of the arcane and secondary sports that received little or no attention anywhere else. Since almost nothing was known about the champions of ski jumping or downhill racing, let alone the masters of hurling or the luge, Roone created an introductory segment that he called "up close and personal." The theory was simple: Give the public a video sketch of these unknown athletes, let us see their training methods, introduce us to their families, and we would have an investment in their success or failure. We would bring a level of interest to the events in which they competed. The concept worked brilliantly. Among the virtues of a good idea are its portability and adaptability. When we began "Nightline" in 1980, I took Mark Twain's admonition to heart and stole Roone's idea from "Wide World of Sports." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 04:15:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:15:30 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: Thanks, Grant. 1927 is the date to beat, but the context suggests the term was not new then. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: "Seven-Toed Pete" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found nothing directly related to the origins of the name "seven-toed Pete." There's a serialized story published (1926 George Marsh _Indiana Weekly Messenger_ "The Valley of Voices," Jan. 21, p.2) about man traveling in northern Canada where a Frenchman describes the Windigo as having "seex-seven toe on fore feet"and there's some discussion of putting one's cards on the table, but only in the "tell me everything" sense, not in the poker sense. This is just a red herring. I also found a record of a child "born without a tongue, with six fingers and a thumb on the left hand, seven on the right hand, and seven toes on each foot, besides the great toe" in an article referring to 1761, datelined 19 Feb. at Copenhagen, and published in the _Boston Weekly News-Letter_ 10 June 1762, p. 2, but it's got nothing to do with Pete unless the child was named Per. Too early, anyway. Actual cites, for the record, but also not that helpful: 1927 _Lincoln State Journal_ "Seven Card Poker O.K." p. 14: CONDON, Ore., June 29--(UP) There is the confirmed poker player who declares that a dealer calling for "Seven-toed Pete" should be shot but times change. Now a card player in Condon will be jailed if he plays any other form of the national pastime. Too much gambling, decided the Condon city fathers and they passed a law prohibiting "all five-card games." Other games are permitted. 1931 _Los Angeles Times_ "Draw Poker Systems to Clash in Seattle"(Dec. 16) p. 7: SEATTLE, Dec. 15 (A)--One hundred and fifty hands will be played and none "of these new-fangled games like 'spit-in-the-ocean,' 'seven-toed Pete' and 'deuces wild' will be permitted." (Next one is part of a long story about two rich guys gambling with two poor guys, but there's no relevant history for seven-toed Pete.) 1937 Westbrook Pegler _Washington Post_ "Fair Enough" (Dec. 11) p. 9: In the hope of stimulating the game, the house just abandoned the regular rules and began to deal a lot of crazy games like seven-toed Pete and high-low with red sevens and the one-eyed Jacks wild. "This ain't poker," one of the rich guys said finally. "This ain't even rummy or casino or anything. Cash me in. I'm going to quit." 1949 Walter Haight _Washington Post_ "Poker a la Femme: Haight Gets Fan Letter, Proud of It" (Mar. 1) p. 17: The men in our group who finally woke up to realize that their wives had muscled permanently on their Saturday night penny ante game, were pretty sheepish about this wild-card stuff at first, and every so often would manfully deal a hand of "real poker," with many a loud remark about the virtues of same. But you've got to admit that after several rousing rounds of High-Low, Seven-Toed Pete with deuces wild, straight stud seems colorless and the pot kind of meager. (This next one's just a fun story but not in the least about seven-toed Pete, except for a mention.) 1956 Gene Sherman _L.A. Times_ "Cityside" (May 8) p. 2: All the time he is having the boys over for a friendly game in the kitchen...Well, his wife's view of this got dimmer and dimmer until one evening recently the gentleman and his buddies were dealing in the kitchen she came in and announced she was taking the kids and driving to L.A. to her folks' house....The gentleman let her and the kids go, whereupon he immediately chartered a plane, grabbed the cards and hustled his buddies into taxi for the airport. When the little woman and her brood arrived by car at her parents' home here, the gentleman and his buddies were sitting comfortably in the kitchen, coats off, beer opened, playing seven-toed Pete. "Cut the cards for luck, honey," the gentleman greeted his wife. And honestly, she couldn't help bust out laughing. Grant Barrett On Jan 1, 2005, at 17:11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card > stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this > name? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 04:25:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:25:56 -0800 Subject: Bush on Rove Message-ID: Heard in 1970s - not in reference to Karl Rove. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Bush on Rove ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 3 04:46:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:46:01 EST Subject: Pinking Shears (1933) Message-ID: "Why is it called pinking shears?" --Jerry Orbach on TNT's "Law and Order" marathon .. Damn you, TNT's "Law and Order" marathon! You know I'm a sucker for watching a dead New York actor! ... So, what does the OED revision have for "pinking shears" anyway? And where does it say it's illegal to kill a rent-controlled tenant who pays $300 a month for three bedrooms?? ... ... (OED) 1962 House & Garden Dec. 55/2 Pair of pinking shears. 1976 Evening Post (Nottingham) 15 Dec. 21 (Advt.), Dress-making scissors, pinking shears, nail scissors, [etc.]. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 19 January 1935, Washington Post, pg. 13: _Scissors That Pimk._ ... Women who are interested in sewing should give the new pinking shears a rousing welcome. These are heavy but handy scissors arranged so that you can pink as you cut. With their aid you can cut out and pink a dress pattern all at one time. Use of them automatically eliminates the necessity of under-sewing or French seaming. ... Pinking, as any seamstress knows, prevents raveling and gives a smart finish to inside seams. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Sheboygan Press _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2gxeFQugZdnekWLUKwmG8MwnyVnYmGViGw==) Tuesday, December 26, 1933 _Sheboygan,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+pinking+shears+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pinking+shears+AND) ...Co. Oflhkosh Paper Co...... Parker Co. PINKING SHEARS Corp Prultt. Inc. Quality.. ... _Oshkosh Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2rR1ykv+J0qyi5UUyzqDUfXJjiabctHEag==) Friday, December 20, 1935 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+pinking+shears+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pinking+shears+AND) ...Sewing boxes, sewing kits, scissors, PINKING SHEARS, hat stands, clothes.. ... _Helena Independent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2qvFEQQZiQj9ubIHuOCUatpqsC6fUmwfvw==) Wednesday, April 10, 1935 _Helena,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:helena+pinking+shears+AND) _Montana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:montana+pinking+shears+AND) ...Styled at Moderate Ask to See the New PINKING SHEARS Thin IK an every nhop or.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2pYK0SQgsmZ4gqxjBfmRAvsJerZEPB3jikIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, February 27, 1935 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+pinking+shears+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+pinking+shears+AND) ...and Scissors 95c and up Wiss PINKING SHEARS Kleinert's Dress Shields 2Sc to.....Thread, (300 yard) lOc; 3 for 2Sc Wiss SHEARS.. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 3 05:00:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:00:24 -0500 Subject: Bush on Rove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't mean that it's new, but that it's "typical": not the kind of language that one expects to see in a family-oriented roto-gravure, especially not from the mouth of *the* Republican family man, and published in a section edited by a man who has been nothing if not completely outspoken in expressing the disgust that he feels toward Clinton. BE "typical" is somewhat difficult to translate. It means something like "living up to the worst possible stereotypes," in this case, pseudo-Christian hypocrisy at its worst. If Clinton had said "turd," it wouldn't have been published by this guy as though it was nothing. Rather, it would have been censored and described as a gross obscenity unworthy of publication in a family-oriented periodical. -Wilson Gray On Jan 2, 2005, at 11:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Bush on Rove > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Heard in 1970s - not in reference to Karl Rove. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Bush on Rove > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December > 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, > including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 3 06:26:16 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:26:16 EST Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits ... My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And I'm wondering, how many people have to die?? ... On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. "Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of Commerce?" ... It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." ... I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from Patton? (GOOGLE) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ (http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good."). ... musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 .htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" +and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& &d#1d8f4793556b3283) ... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the ... _soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." ... _http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php _ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) ... On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur Avenue bakeries. ... Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di casa." The original house bread?? From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 08:06:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 03:06:27 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:00 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud >>poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this name? > >At N'archive I find this from 1922, also "seven-card Pete" from 1926. I >don't know whether these are early or interesting. > >There are also poker games called "three-toed Pete" and "lamebrain Pete". >Why "Pete"? I don't know. (Why "stud" for that matter?) Which came first? >Was there a basic game called "[five-card] Pete"? There is a (once popular) >card game named "Pedro": any relation? > >Why "seven"? Seven cards, I guess. Why "toed"? The seven cards make a hand, >not a foot, so shouldn't it be "seven-fingered"? > >One possibility is the "seven-toed" designation originally referred to a >cat: polydactyly is much more common in cats than in humans, and a cat with >a seven-toed paw is not too rare: maybe somebody thought Pete the 7-toed >cat provided good luck at the card table, or something like that. No need to invoke polydactylic felines, I don't think. There's at least one citation suggesting that a character named "Seven-Toed Pete" was known from Western dime novels: Los Angeles Times, Apr 21, 1895, p. 14 [Referring to a man found not guilty of holding up an Oregon bank by reason of insanity:] "He is a man of 49 years of age, with the impulses and judgment of a boy of 13 to 15 years, who, with his head stuffed full of the garish fiction of dime novels, emulates the conduct of heroic Seven-toed Pete, and sallies forth armed with a sharpened caseknife to lift the scalps of imaginary redskins in the persons of inoffensive small children." I don't see any other references to a "Seven-Toed Pete", but there are several late-19th-century cites referring to men nicknamed "Six-Toed Pete", usually in Western frontier towns. (Some websites mention a "Six-Toed Pete" in stories about Wild Bill Hickock.) The most interesting character is a man whose real name was Pedro Badillo (or Badillos). He is described in a Reno Evening Gazette article of May 30, 1876 as someone who had stood for office in Los Angeles but then had to flee the country after being discovered as a horse thief. He turns up in a Los Angeles Times article of Feb. 25, 1894 as a "smuggler and land pirate" in Mexico who had used the customhouse at Tiajuana as a fort and "defied the gendarmes of the learned but vacillating Governor, Don Manuel Clemente Rojo." Another LA Times article, on Aug. 16, 1896, says he had "engaged in an unsuccessful revolt against the Mexican government, after proclaiming himself Governor of Sonora." By that time Six-Toed Pete had settled in the border town of Nogales (Arizona/Sonora): "Although Pete's hair is now as white as snow, he yet turns the cards with nimble fingers, and will bet 500 'dobles' (Mexican dollars) on a rooster fight, as he did in early times." --Ben Zimmer From dfaline at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 11:57:23 2005 From: dfaline at YAHOO.COM (DTF) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 03:57:23 -0800 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: --- Automatic digest processor wrote: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 13:05:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 05:05:53 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits ... My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And I'm wondering, how many people have to die?? ... On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. "Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of Commerce?" ... It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." ... I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from Patton? (GOOGLE) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ (http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good."). ... musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 .htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" +and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& &d#1d8f4793556b3283) ... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the ... _soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." ... _http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php _ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) ... On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur Avenue bakeries. ... Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di casa." The original house bread?? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 15:01:42 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:01:42 -0600 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: Ben's 7T Pete may be this person: http://www.gilleysgallery.com/PAGES/FINE%20ART/20CENTURY_MEXART/sloan_7toedP ete.html in a print of a piece of art by John Sloan. > No need to invoke polydactylic felines, I don't think. > There's at least one citation suggesting that a character > named "Seven-Toed Pete" was known from Western dime novels: > > Los Angeles Times, Apr 21, 1895, p. 14 > [Referring to a man found not guilty of holding up an Oregon bank > by reason of insanity:] "He is a man of 49 years of age, with the > impulses and judgment of a boy of 13 to 15 years, who, with his > head stuffed full of the garish fiction of dime novels, emulates > the conduct of heroic Seven-toed Pete, and sallies forth armed > with a sharpened caseknife to lift the scalps of imaginary > redskins in the persons of inoffensive small children." > > I don't see any other references to a "Seven-Toed Pete", but > there are several late-19th-century cites referring to men > nicknamed "Six-Toed Pete", usually in Western frontier towns. > (Some websites mention a "Six-Toed Pete" in stories about > Wild Bill Hickock.) The most interesting character is a man > whose real name was Pedro Badillo (or Badillos). He is > described in a Reno Evening Gazette article of May 30, 1876 > as someone who had stood for office in Los Angeles but then > had to flee the country after being discovered as a horse > thief. He turns up in a Los Angeles Times article of Feb. > 25, 1894 as a "smuggler and land pirate" in Mexico who had > used the customhouse at Tiajuana as a fort and "defied the > gendarmes of the learned but vacillating Governor, Don Manuel > Clemente Rojo." Another LA Times article, on Aug. 16, 1896, > says he had "engaged in an unsuccessful revolt against the > Mexican government, after proclaiming himself Governor of > Sonora." By that time Six-Toed Pete had settled in the > border town of Nogales (Arizona/Sonora): "Although Pete's > hair is now as white as snow, he yet turns the cards with > nimble fingers, and will bet 500 'dobles' (Mexican dollars) > on a rooster fight, as he did in early times." > > > --Ben Zimmer > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 3 15:10:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:10:58 -0500 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: <20050103130553.69440.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:05 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" > >JL Is that "Monkey" with or without a k? LH > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google >Groups hits >... >My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on >another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & >Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And >I'm wondering, >how many people have to die?? >... >On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. >"Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of >Commerce?" >... >It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on >the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." >... >I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from >Patton? > > >(GOOGLE) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ >(http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military >camp run >by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is >good."). ... >musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ >(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 >.htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - >_Similar pages_ >(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... >... >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" >+and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines >s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& >&d#1d8f4793556b3283) >... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run >by General >George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the >... >_soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - >Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors >... >... >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------------------- >COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: >WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? > >It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the >recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." >... >_http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php >_ >(http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) >... >On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and >Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised >OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur >Avenue bakeries. >... >Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di >casa." The original house bread?? > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ñ Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 15:27:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:27:34 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: The painter and lithographer John Sloan (1871-1951) was a prominent member of the New York "Ashcan School." His portrait of "Pete" may have been done before 1914, but its relationship to a dime-novel Pete remains problematical. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "Seven-Toed Pete" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben's 7T Pete may be this person: http://www.gilleysgallery.com/PAGES/FINE%20ART/20CENTURY_MEXART/sloan_7toedP ete.html in a print of a piece of art by John Sloan. > No need to invoke polydactylic felines, I don't think. > There's at least one citation suggesting that a character > named "Seven-Toed Pete" was known from Western dime novels: > > Los Angeles Times, Apr 21, 1895, p. 14 > [Referring to a man found not guilty of holding up an Oregon bank > by reason of insanity:] "He is a man of 49 years of age, with the > impulses and judgment of a boy of 13 to 15 years, who, with his > head stuffed full of the garish fiction of dime novels, emulates > the conduct of heroic Seven-toed Pete, and sallies forth armed > with a sharpened caseknife to lift the scalps of imaginary > redskins in the persons of inoffensive small children." > > I don't see any other references to a "Seven-Toed Pete", but > there are several late-19th-century cites referring to men > nicknamed "Six-Toed Pete", usually in Western frontier towns. > (Some websites mention a "Six-Toed Pete" in stories about > Wild Bill Hickock.) The most interesting character is a man > whose real name was Pedro Badillo (or Badillos). He is > described in a Reno Evening Gazette article of May 30, 1876 > as someone who had stood for office in Los Angeles but then > had to flee the country after being discovered as a horse > thief. He turns up in a Los Angeles Times article of Feb. > 25, 1894 as a "smuggler and land pirate" in Mexico who had > used the customhouse at Tiajuana as a fort and "defied the > gendarmes of the learned but vacillating Governor, Don Manuel > Clemente Rojo." Another LA Times article, on Aug. 16, 1896, > says he had "engaged in an unsuccessful revolt against the > Mexican government, after proclaiming himself Governor of > Sonora." By that time Six-Toed Pete had settled in the > border town of Nogales (Arizona/Sonora): "Although Pete's > hair is now as white as snow, he yet turns the cards with > nimble fingers, and will bet 500 'dobles' (Mexican dollars) > on a rooster fight, as he did in early times." > > > --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 15:29:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:29:01 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: With a "K." Otherwise it wouldn't have been worth reporting to this august body. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:05 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" > >JL Is that "Monkey" with or without a k? LH > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google >Groups hits >... >My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on >another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & >Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And >I'm wondering, >how many people have to die?? >... >On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. >"Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of >Commerce?" >... >It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on >the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." >... >I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from >Patton? > > >(GOOGLE) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ >(http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military >camp run >by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is >good."). ... >musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ >(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 >.htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - >_Similar pages_ >(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... >... >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" >+and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines >s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& >&d#1d8f4793556b3283) >... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run >by General >George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the >... >_soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - >Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors >... >... >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------------------- >COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: >WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? > >It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the >recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." >... >_http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php >_ >(http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) >... >On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and >Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised >OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur >Avenue bakeries. >... >Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di >casa." The original house bread?? > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 3 15:34:17 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:34:17 -0500 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: <20050103152902.57776.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:29 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >With a "K." Otherwise it wouldn't have been worth reporting to this >august body. > >JL What I thought; just checking for the record. L >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 5:05 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" >> >>JL > >Is that "Monkey" with or without a k? > >LH > >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google >>Groups hits >>... >>My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on >>another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & >>Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And >>I'm wondering, >>how many people have to die?? >>... >>On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. >>"Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of >>Commerce?" >>... >>It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on >>the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." >>... >>I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from >>Patton? >> >> >>(GOOGLE) >>... >>_From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ >>(http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >>... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military >>camp run >>by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is >>good."). ... >>musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ >>(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 >>.htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - >>_Similar pages_ >>(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >>... >>... >>(GOOGLE GROUPS) >>... >>_From Vietnam to Iraq_ >>(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" >>+and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines >>s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& >>&d#1d8f4793556b3283) >>... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run >>by General >>George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the >>... >>_soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - >>Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors >>... >>... >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: >>WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? >> >>It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the >>recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." >>... >>_http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php >>_ >>(http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) >>... >>On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and >>Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at >>the praised >>OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur >>Avenue bakeries. >>... >>Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di > >casa." The original house bread?? >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Ò Try it today! > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 16:15:12 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:15:12 -0600 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:26 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" > > ... > I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a > quote from Patton? > > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 17:32:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:32:15 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: Actually, it was Maj. Gen. George S. Patton III - his celebrated father was "Jr." JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:26 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" > > ... > I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a > quote from Patton? > > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 17:42:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:42:53 -0800 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: The Net seemsto offer no legitimate exx. of "Blomee" as a surname. I did discover half a dozen or more instances of "Joe Blow-me" as a synonym for "Joe Blow." It may be that some users of "Joe Blow-me" do not feel that the term is objectionable. HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 3 17:45:04 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:45:04 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: There are no examples of Blomee as a surname on Westlaw and the Census Bureau doesn't recognize it as a surname, so it seems clear that it is not a frequent surname in the U.S., at least. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 7:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 19:50:59 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:50:59 -0600 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: Another variant is "Heywood Jablome". A radio shock jock pretending to use this name was quoted in a Charleston Post and Courier article a couple years back: http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=45&aid=30737 http://www.tolstoy.com/lonewacko/blog/archives/000470.html -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Lighter To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: 1/3/2005 11:42 AM Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? The Net seemsto offer no legitimate exx. of "Blomee" as a surname. I did discover half a dozen or more instances of "Joe Blow-me" as a synonym for "Joe Blow." It may be that some users of "Joe Blow-me" do not feel that the term is objectionable. HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 19:53:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:53:04 -0600 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: The Social Security Death Index has no "Blomee" listed, either. -----Original Message----- From: Baker, John To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: 1/3/2005 11:45 AM Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? There are no examples of Blomee as a surname on Westlaw and the Census Bureau doesn't recognize it as a surname, so it seems clear that it is not a frequent surname in the U.S., at least. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 3 20:13:39 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:13:39 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: In this early use from 1932, "Joe Blow" was used as a pseudonym by a bootlegger during Prohibition: <> Cody v. United States, 73 F.2d 180, 183 (9th Cir. 1934). Luppino was arrested on January 16, 1932, so the invoice would have been signed shortly before that time. Note that, while this shows that "Joe Blow" was in use by 1932, it also shows that the fake name was sufficiently unusual that members of the underworld were willing to use it to cover their tracks (though, in hindsight, Luppino might have been better advised to call himself John Smith). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? The Net seemsto offer no legitimate exx. of "Blomee" as a surname. I did discover half a dozen or more instances of "Joe Blow-me" as a synonym for "Joe Blow." It may be that some users of "Joe Blow-me" do not feel that the term is objectionable. HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 09:14:38 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 04:14:38 -0500 Subject: Muppet (1955) Message-ID: Muppet (OED3 1970) 1955 _Washington Post_ 15 May J3/4 Mac is also high in his praise of Jim Henson, the manipulator of the "Muppets." A young University of Maryland student, Henson works out the puppet acts "just by sitting down and thinking for a few moments." [Referring to WRC-TV's show "Afternoon" -- see: ] 1956 _Washington Post_ 10 Jun. J1/4 On "Footlight Theater," Arnold uses his talent for character creation to work with Jim Henson's "Muppets." (A "Muppet" is a kind of puppet.) 1956 _Washington Post_ 2 Sep. G3/2 A "muppet," according to Henson, is a cross between a hand puppet and a stick puppet. Henson thought up the term "muppet" in order "to have something distinctive." --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 20:50:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:50:03 -0500 Subject: murderers' row (1860) Message-ID: murderers' row * row of pictures in a rogues' gallery (sense not yet in OED): 1860 _New York Times_ 5 Sep. 8/2 In a line with "murderers' row," which contains the portraits of Stephens, Straub, Mrs. Hartung, and others, is the likeness of quite a good looking youth, No. 468, known as the "Goat Boy." * row of prison cells (OED3 1873): 1866 _New York Times_ 18 Jun. 8/3 It appears that he had these luxuries furnished to him when he was in a cell on the first tier, but since he was brought down to "Murderers'-row" he has been denied these articles. These are still later than the purported 1858 citation referring to a baseball team, about which see: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210D&L=ads-l&P=R3211 --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 20:41:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:41:09 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:13:39 -0500, Baker, John wrote: > In this early use from 1932, "Joe Blow" was used as a pseudonym by >a bootlegger during Prohibition: > ><Luppino, the officers took from his person a receipted invoice covering a >purchase by one 'Joe Blow' of 480 square five-gallon cans with 1 3/4 inch >screw caps from the American Can Company of Portland, Or. When the >officers raided the still in Yakima, Wash., they found two or three >hundred square five-gallon cans with 1 3/4 inch screw caps similar to the >ones that were delivered under the above-mentioned invoice.>> > >Cody v. United States, 73 F.2d 180, 183 (9th Cir. 1934). Luppino was >arrested on January 16, 1932, so the invoice would have been signed >shortly before that time. > > Note that, while this shows that "Joe Blow" was in use by 1932, it >also shows that the fake name was sufficiently unusual that members of the >underworld were willing to use it to cover their tracks (though, in >hindsight, Luppino might have been better advised to call himself John >Smith). By 1930, "Joe Blow" was being used by sports writers to refer to hypothetical so-and-so's: --------- Chicago Daily Tribune, Aug 26, 1930, p. 17 Characters -- Joe Blow, ardent National league fan, and Gus J. Fan, American league devotee. --------- Syracuse Herald, Nov 7, 1930, p. 33 For instance, 20 years ago on certain campuses a young freshman might be pointed out as the son of old Joe Blow. You remember Joe Blow, the fellow who dropped the punt in the annual clash with old Hooey and lost the game. --------- There are also earlier references to fictional and real-life Joe Blows -- in this 1919 story, it's the nickname for a blowhard: --------- (Lincoln, Nebraska) Evening State Journal, Feb 20, 1919 The Blowhard. "He's told me a new tale about himself and his family every time that he's seen a moving picture. When he came here first I believed him -- until one day he told me that his brother, who was on board a battleship, took the ship out to sea for a ten mile spin after the crew had gone ashore. On his return the crew hailed him with wild cheers at his nerve. That's why we named him Joe Blow." -- Chicago Daily News. --------- There are several cites for "Joe Blow" between 1908 and 1918 as the name of a fictitious bookie in William F. Kirk's serialized stories of "The Manicure Lady", e.g.: --------- Washington Post, May 10, 1908, p. CO3 [also in: Lima (Ohio) Daily News, April 30, 1908, p. 3] The Manicure Lady; She Has Her Own Ideas on Woman's Courage By William F. Kirk. "Joe Blow, the bookmaker, got his nails did yesterday," said the Manicure Lady. --------- Washington Post, Nov 1, 1908, p. CO3 The Manicure Lady; She Knows a Would-Be Sport As Far As She Can See One By William F. Kirk. "When I see a nice young gent, like that one who just left here, trying to tell me what a sport he is, and then when I look into the next chair and see Joe Blow, the bookmaker, never saying a word about his wild and woolly past, I can't help thinking that still waters run deep." --------- Earlier still, there was a real-life Joe Blow who died in Los Angeles in 1897 and was the subject of a protracted legal dispute over the money he had hoarded in his back yard. The courts determined that his name was really Joseph Blow and awarded the money to a Blow family in England: --------- Los Angeles Times, Aug 19, 1899, p. 10 OLD JOE BLOW'S MONEY Claimants for the hoarded wealth of old Joseph Blow, how has been dead since December 17, 1897, are becoming numerous. Among them is Mrs. J. Kinsella of Syracuse, N.Y., who alleges that she was a sister of the dead miser... Former Public Administrator Kelsey inclines to the opinion that Mrs. Kinsella is mistaken in her contention that Joseph Blow was her brother. She says his true name was Joseph Coglan, and that Joe Blow was a name he adopted when a boy because he liked the sound of it. --------- Los Angeles Times, Feb 27, 1900, p. I10 WHO WAS JOE BLOW?; CLAIMANTS TO HIS WEALTH A TRIFLE MIXED UP; Some Say He Was English, Some German and Some Irish, but the Probate Court Has the Question to Answer--Proof Thus Far Seems to Favor the English. --------- Los Angeles Times. Feb 28, 1900, p. I10 Judge Shaw Finds That Joe Blow Was an Englishman and Gives His Estate to the English Claimants. --------- Los Angeles Times, Oct 7, 1900, p. III4 BLOW ESTATE BLOWN. The estate of old Joe Blow the mysterious old miser who died in this city about three years ago, leaving buried treasure in a tomato can out in his back yeart, has at last been distributed ... A brother and a sister and the five children of a deceased brother, Charles, all residents of England, inherit his wealth. A final distribution was ordered in the estate of Charles Blow yesterday, which consisted solely of the inheritance from Brother Joe. --------- It's conceivable that the case of "Old Joe Blow" could have helped popularize the name, leading to its eventual use as a hypothetical nickname (later to be joined by Joe Schmo, Joe Bloggs, Joe Dokes, Joe Soap, et al.) --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 22:08:41 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:08:41 -0600 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: > HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless > Ben or Bill can push it back further). A challenge! "Writing for Money," Hardon, R. V., _The Nation_, 8/19/1925, p. 208/1 "Why, in one town in Iowa alone, there are 11 potential Mary Roberts Rineharts, 7 James Branch Cabells, 4 almost-Ruby M. Ayerses, and 2 perfectly good Zane Greys, with 118 scattering from Joe Hergesheimers to Joe Blows. Don t lift the eyebrows over Joe Blow. You never heard of him before, but he is the most widely printed fiction author in all America." [Note also the suspicious last name of the author, "Hardon". This was his only article in _The Nation_, and in it he admits to having 21 pseudonyms. Later in the article, he refers to "Broadway Johns" as stock characters in pulp fiction.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 23:29:16 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:29:16 -0600 Subject: labor slang Message-ID: "Vivid Vernacular Coined by Labor" Dec 1, 1955; Christian Science Monitor pg. B16/3 PIE CARD "A pie card is a soft job, while therblig relates to time and motion study." COOLIE OVERTIME, GALLOPING RATE "A method of figuring overtime pay is sometimes called coolie overtime, or galloping rate." LAME DUCK, SOLDIER (v) "For instance, lame duck has two meanings, a worker incapable of meeting his quota, or one who "soldiers" or deliberately slows down production." p. B16/4 BUG, SCABWAG "A bug is a union lable, a scabwag is a defeatist talker who advocates going back to work in an effort to break a strike." NOBLES "And when a union worker uses the term "nobles," the group can be sure that he is doing it derisively. He means armed guards hired to protect strikebreakers." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 4 01:33:55 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:33:55 -0500 Subject: Anyone for _surf and turf_? Message-ID: Here's a chance to make sure this is eventually cited in its correct form, hopefully with due credit given. Please send suggestions to the original poster below as well as copying the list. I'm assuming that the writer's "I've not had much luck" concession, combined with his willingness to ask, is a good omen. As is often the case, it's not clear if he's actually interested in first cites, etymology, or both. (What I know about _surf and turf_, besides the fact that it fits the pattern of other such rhyming pairs, is that it also fits the pattern of other "fixed binominals" or "freezes" in which the item denoting fish precedes the item denoting meat, as Cooper and Ross discuss in their 1975 "World Order" paper. That and 15 cents would have once gotten me on the subway, but without surf or turf.) Larry --- begin forwarded text To: laurence.horn at yale.edu From: Jim DeWan Subject: Dianne Jonas sent me Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 14:52:39 -0600 Dear Mr. Horn, I am a food journalist, researching the origin of the term "surf and turf" ("surf 'n turf"), and I wonder if you might be able to lend me any assistance. So far, I've not had much luck. Thanks in advance. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmly - Jim DeWan --- end forwarded text From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 4 03:35:19 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:35:19 -0500 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D01B4989B@rdec-exch8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. You sound pretty definite about the origin of this quotation, whereas quotations such as this don't usually have clearcut origins. Do you have any basis for the Patton son attribution? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 04:13:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:13:41 EST Subject: Boston accents on NPR Message-ID: _http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4256261_ (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4256261) ... A Celebration of Boston's Unique Accents _Day to Day_ (http://www.npr.org/programs/day/) , January 3, 2005 · Pahk the kah in Hahvud yahd... Say what? To celebrate the launch of Day to Day on Boston member station WBUR, _NPR's Mike Pesca_ (http://www.npr.org/about/people/bios/mpesca.html) reports on the nuances of Bostonian accents From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 4 05:40:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:40:52 -0500 Subject: Anyone for _surf and turf_? Message-ID: The combination of "surf" and "turf" may owe something to the Del Mar Turf Club outside of San Diego, a racetrack opened by Bing Crosby in 1937. Crosby commemorated the track's opening with the song "Where the Turf Meets the Surf." Press accounts of the club in the late '30s sometimes referred to it as "The Turf and Surf Club" or "The Surf and Turf Club." Also, the hotel near the club was known as the Del Mar Turf and Surf Hotel. As far as "surf and turf" (or "turf and surf") in the "lobster and steak" sense goes, I doubt the coinage can be traced to one particular restaurant. The earliest citations I've found are from 1961 in the Los Angeles Times, referring to two different restaurants in L.A. A review of Bob Gaard's Dover House, a restaurant on the corner of La Cienega and Santa Monica Blvds., mentions a "turf and surf" entree: Los Angeles Times, Aug 13, 1961, p. N7 The "Turf and Surf" is an interesting combination: lobster tail and small beef tenderloin. Later that year, a restaurant called Happy Hollow on Silver Lake Blvd. advertised "surf and turf": Los Angeles Times, Dec 17, 1961, Calendar, p. 18 (advt.) Surf & Turf Australian Lobster Tail & Choice Top Sirloin Steak By the mid-'60s the surf/turf combo had spread to the East Coast. In the Syracuse Post Standard of June 26, 1964, an advertisement for the Seneca Manor restaurant includes: "Surf and Turf Plate - Broiled Lobster Tail and a Petite Filet of Mignon on Toast." But the "turf and surf" form also circulated, as in a Washington Post article of July 3, 1966 reviewing the Westside Room at the Century Plaza. By the late '60s, "surf and turf" had displaced "turf and surf" as the favored name for the lobster/steak entree. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 05:42:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:42:02 EST Subject: "Death is my business and business is good" (1972) Message-ID: Maybe it started in boxing? Someone said: "Hitting people is my business"? ... The 1972 citation here is the only Vietnam-era version I could find. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Sugar Ray Tells Bid of $1,000,000_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=519543982&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN P&TS=1104816442&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 7, 1958. p. C2 (1 page) 5. _Robinson Offered Million to Fight Floyd Patterson_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=121101536&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104816442&clientId=65882) The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 7, 1958. p. A15 (1 page) ... Robinson said the offer came in a telegram from Cy Weintraub, Los Angeles television man. "Boxing id my business and it looks like business is good," said Robinson, who added he'll fly to Los Angeles Sunday to talk to Weintraub. ... ... _GI Outdrew Foe On a Giant Scale_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=99601760&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 04816222&clientId=65882) Garry Wills. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 3, 1972. p. A13 (1 page) ... Only one character in a Western keeps piling up a record like that--the hired gun, the man whose motto reads "Death is my business, and business is good." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2mgMNe4iA0hhJWehdXzOOaCk7fTcognJ/UIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, April 07, 1947 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+is+our+business+and+busi ness+is+good) ...YOUR Protection IS OUR -BUSINESS AND BUSINESS IS GOOD 5 i m m m .SYRACUSE.....costs. i f t You'll enjoy doing BUSINESS-through yOUR own. friendly AND.. ... _Reno Evening Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2ljrlfOgmGlHLfCtpWQNifjHiBf35r4+zA==) Tuesday, April 22, 1958 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) ...SELLING CARS IS OUR BUSINESS... AND BUSINESS IS GOOD '57 FORD 'R7 FORD.....5 p.m. 53 WILLYS 4 wheel drive pickup. GOOD rubber, GOOD mechanical condition.. --- _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2lNim1l+7MhalGFZxGPWLhUtfW0/xA5jwEIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, December 12, 1966 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+is+our+business+and+b usiness+is+good) ...Ave. HU8-4023 DANCING IS OUR BUSINESS BUSINESS IS GOOD. Paye Dance 1444 E.....excellent condition throughout Do BUSINESS where BUSINESS IS belngdone GL.. ... _Daily Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2gHvQVCxosGsOjKVsleWSK2msO+tHino8UIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, August 18, 1967 _Salisbury,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) ...SELLING PROPERTY IS OUR BUSINESS AND BUSINESS IS GOOD LIST TODAY W. J. AHTES.....REAL ESTATE REAL ESTATE BUSINESS Places For Kent CENTRAL.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 06:37:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:37:12 EST Subject: Anyone for _surf and turf_? Message-ID: SURF AND TURF ... SURF AND TURG ... I'd previously discussed "Surf and Turf," "Land and Sea," "Beef and Reef," and "Fin and Feather." (I was going to revisit the subject for my food website, but I don't have a food website, and I can't seem to even pay money to a web designer for a food website. I do parking tickets like I did today from 8:30 a.m. to 7 p.m., with a half hour lunch, in a room with unbearable heat and no windows. 2005 really looks great.) ... MURDERERS' ROW ... This has also been discussed before, by Gerald Cohen and the 19th century baseball guys, I believe "murderers' row" might go back to NY's Tombs prison. ... JOE BLOW ... >HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back >further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, >too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. > >JL ... Well, I'm not Ben or Bill, so nobody asked me. I was doing much of this stuff eight years ago. I had posted a "Joe Blow" by Rube Goldberg from the NY Evening Mail, but I think that's destroyed in the old archives. ... "Joe Blow"--in the form that we know it and clearly not the name of a person--appears in the "Circus" section of Barry Buchanan's 1930s unpublished Encyclopedia of the Entertainment World. ... THREE BY FIVE ... A police guy before me today said that, when police radio to report a crazy person, they say they've got a "three-by-five" (card). From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jan 4 06:48:38 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:48:38 -0500 Subject: Old archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why are the old ADS-L archives not currently accessible? (Apologies if this has already been asked and answered.) -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 4 14:25:45 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:25:45 -0500 Subject: Old archives In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050104014626.02f75eb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: When we moved to the new server over the summer, the old indexing software had to be replaced. I'm still working on a solution (slowly), and also taking the time to remove dupes and to see where the gaps in the archives are. I had hoped to have it back up before the new year, but as you can see, that has not happened. I'll post to the list when I've finished. Meantime, if you need something specific out of them, let me know and I'll fetch it. Grant Why are the old ADS-L archives not currently accessible? (Apologies if > this > has already been asked and answered.) > > -- Doug Wilson > > From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jan 4 14:43:39 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:43:39 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Fred Shapiro > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" > > > On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. > > You sound pretty definite about the origin of this quotation, whereas > quotations such as this don't usually have clearcut origins. Do you have > any basis for the Patton son attribution? Actually, George S. Patton, Jr. is the WWII general. His son was George III. AFAIK, the phrase is Vietnam-era. I don't know of any solid connection to any of the Pattons. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 14:50:57 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:50:57 EST Subject: Bush on Rove Message-ID: In a message dated > Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:00:24 -0500, Wilson Gray < > wilson.gray at RCN.COM> writes: > > not the kind of > language that one expects to see in a family-oriented roto-gravure, > especially not from the mouth of *the* Republican family man, and > published in a section edited by a man who has been nothing if not > completely outspoken in expressing the disgust that he feels toward > Clinton. > > > According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December > > 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, > > including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." FYI, "Walter Scott" is a house name, not a person. My vague recollection is that circa 1970 it was used by the editor of Parade who personally put together the "Personality Parade" section. I have no idea who, or what committee, currently uses "Walter Scott". The circa 1970 Walter Scott had an acid pen in a velvet glove, with politely-written high-brow scorn for anyone who was not, as we now say, "politically correct". Just one example: Martha Mitchell was "a menopausal woman" until she happened to say something bad about Nixon, at which point she suddenly became "heroic". I assure you that whoever currently writes under the pseudonym "Walter Scott" is much, much blander than the 1970's writer. I haven't noticed any anti-Clinton bias on the part of the current Walter Scott. In fact, strong opinions on the part of the current Scott are so rare that it was disconcerting to read recently (I think Jan 2, 2005) his derogatory comments on "Desperate Housewives". Your phrase "completely outspoken" just doesn't fit. At least the current Walter Scott believes that African-Americans are people and writes about interesting African-Americans the same way he writes about interesting whites. The 1970's Walter Scott, in so far as I can trust my vague recollections, had a very limousine-liberal view of African-Americans and wrote about them only if they happened to publicly support his political and social biases. That, I hope, represents progress. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 14:55:55 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:55:55 EST Subject: labor slang Message-ID: In a message dated > Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:29:16 -0600, "Mullins, Bill" < > Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> > > > "Vivid Vernacular Coined by Labor" Dec 1, 1955; Christian Science Monitor > pg. B16/3 > > PIE CARD > "A pie card is a soft job, while therblig relates to time and motion study." "therblig" was not "coined by labor" I believe it was the deliberate coinage by the husband-and-wife team of Frank and LIllian Gilbreth, who were well-known pioneers in time-and-motion studies and industrial engineering (and incidentally the inspiration for the recent movie "Cheaper by the Dozen".) THERBLIG, a unit of workplace efficiency, is a word created by spelling approximately backwards the last name of engineer Frank B. Gilbreth and psychologist Lillian Gilbreth. THERBLIG is not in MWCD10; the three words in MWCD10 that were created as anagrams are SPANDEX (for "expands"), SIDEBURNS (for "burnsides"), and ITACONIC ACID (for "aconitic acid," from "aconite.") from http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words4.html From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 4 16:17:24 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:17:24 -0500 Subject: labor slang In-Reply-To: <1d0.2e241747.2f0c087b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > psychologist Lillian Gilbreth. THERBLIG is not in MWCD10; the three > words in MWCD10 that were created as anagrams are SPANDEX (for > "expands"), SIDEBURNS (for "burnsides"), and ITACONIC ACID (for > "aconitic acid," from "aconite.") There are other words in W10 that are full or partial anagrams; see "ellagic," for example. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From castas01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Tue Jan 4 16:00:05 2005 From: castas01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Courtney Stastyshyn) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:00:05 -0500 Subject: take me off Ads Message-ID: I do not want to be involved in any emails with the ADS anymore. Everyone please take me off your lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jan 4 17:01:33 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:01:33 -0600 Subject: FW: a new equivalent of "Joe Blow"--("Hugo Blomee" listed in a database) Message-ID: My thanks to George Cole for his message, which I now share with ads-l. He justifiably wonders how the name "Hugo Blomee" arrived in the database, and until this is clarified I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: GSCole > Sent: Monday, January 3, 2005 1:17 PM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: ..a name.. > > Gerald, > With reference to your recent note to ADS-L, I thought that the following might be of interest. A Hugo Blomee is listed for RONKONKOMA, NY. > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/newsearch;jsessionid=53F82B59FE7BFFBE4839B657B05F2911?searchFName=&searchMName=&searchLName=blomee&searchCity=&searchState=&searchApproxAge=45&adID=10002101&x=21&y=18 > > If the above URL doesn't work, go to: > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/preview.jsp It really only needs a > last name for search purposes. > > Supposedly, the site is one that allows you to find detailed information about folk. Wonder how Hugo arrived in their database? > > Just a note of possible interest. > > George Cole > Shippensburg University > > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 4 17:02:25 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:02:25 -0500 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context Message-ID: Heard on NPR's "Le Show", 2004-12-19, song titled "Christmas in Oblivion" about Bernie Kerik*: "A nanny would make a good beard". Referring to Kerik's apparent invention of an undocumented nanny as an explanation for his sudden departure from prominence, preferable to the revelation that he had risen in the first place merely as an incompetent and ethically impaired friend of the boss. *Dragon NaturallySpeaking initially misrecognized this name as "dirty character". Artificial intelligence? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Jan 4 17:34:44 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:34:44 -0600 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context In-Reply-To: <200501041702.j04H2Q5N014877@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: If I recall correctly, the word was used in a non(gay/straight) context in an episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" some years back; I'm away from home and can't check at the moment, but it was a Halloween episode, either season two (which would make it 1997) or season four (1999). In the scene, Buffy's mother commented that her (Buffy's) father used to love taking her trick-or-treating; Buffy said something to the effect that he loved the candy, and she was just the beard. (I'll be home in a couple of days; I'll be able to give more precise information then.) Jim Parish Quoting "Mark A. Mandel" : > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Heard on NPR's "Le Show", 2004-12-19, song titled "Christmas in Oblivion" > about Bernie Kerik*: "A nanny would make a good beard". Referring to Kerik's > apparent invention of an undocumented nanny as an explanation for his sudden > departure from prominence, preferable to the revelation that he had risen in > the first place merely as an incompetent and ethically impaired friend of > the boss. > > *Dragon NaturallySpeaking initially misrecognized this name as "dirty > character". Artificial intelligence? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > ------------------------------------------------- SIUE Web Mail From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 4 17:39:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:39:27 -0800 Subject: FW: a new equivalent of "Joe Blow"--("Hugo Blomee" listed in a database) Message-ID: Apropos of next to nothing, personal names in phone directories are not necessarily genuine. People sometimes make up names (or use the name of a pet) to have the privacy of an unlisted number without the extra charge. As long as someone pays thye bill, the phone company is happy. JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: FW: a new equivalent of "Joe Blow"--("Hugo Blomee" listed in a database) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My thanks to George Cole for his message, which I now share with ads-l. He justifiably wonders how the name "Hugo Blomee" arrived in the database, and until this is clarified I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: GSCole > Sent: Monday, January 3, 2005 1:17 PM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: ..a name.. > > Gerald, > With reference to your recent note to ADS-L, I thought that the following might be of interest. A Hugo Blomee is listed for RONKONKOMA, NY. > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/newsearch;jsessionid=53F82B59FE7BFFBE4839B657B05F2911?searchFName=&searchMName=&searchLName=blomee&searchCity=&searchState=&searchApproxAge=45&adID=10002101&x=21&y=18 > > If the above URL doesn't work, go to: > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/preview.jsp It really only needs a > last name for search purposes. > > Supposedly, the site is one that allows you to find detailed information about folk. Wonder how Hugo arrived in their database? > > Just a note of possible interest. > > George Cole > Shippensburg University > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 4 18:49:40 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:49:40 -0500 Subject: second thoughts on Nkinis, bis In-Reply-To: <20041226050048.C1377B2452@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I just looked at the December 26 digest and saw the message that I had posted on Christmas Day, and found that it contained a speako that made hash of it: \\\\\\\\\\\\\ >>>>> >And most important Josephus had other reasons for rewriting them as >doing so, since he coward out of a pack made with his comrades. Not necessarily an eggcorn, since Josephus before he changed sides was a member of a "pack" (cf WWII "wolf-pack") of Jewish fighters. <<<<< But the presence of "made" is less likely in that reading than it is if "pack" is an eggcorn for "pack". //////////// That second "pack" should have been "pact": But the presence of "made" is less likely in that reading than it is if "pack" is an eggcorn for "pact". (Eggcorn hash?) -- Mark A. Mandel [I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is perfect.] From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jan 4 20:53:18 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:53:18 -0500 Subject: bubbler redux Message-ID: Jas. Bamfort in /A Pretext for War/ quotes a CIA case officer referring to some staff members in a particular situation as "bubblers." From the context I can't be sure this isn't just a nonce usage to suggest idling at idiotic level, but maybe it has another slang meaning......? I remember its being discussed here in connection with drinking fountains some time ago, but don't remember if other definitions came up then. A. Murie From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 4 21:23:16 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:23:16 -0500 Subject: labor slang Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:17:24 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > >> psychologist Lillian Gilbreth. THERBLIG is not in MWCD10; the three >> words in MWCD10 that were created as anagrams are SPANDEX (for >> "expands"), SIDEBURNS (for "burnsides"), and ITACONIC ACID (for >> "aconitic acid," from "aconite.") > >There are other words in W10 that are full or partial anagrams; see >"ellagic," for example. And W11 has added "cotinine" (an anagram of "nicotine"). --Ben Zimmer From eeksypeeksy at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 4 21:24:46 2005 From: eeksypeeksy at GMAIL.COM (Malcolm Davidson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:24:46 +0100 Subject: take me off Ads In-Reply-To: <8342826466235735740@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:00:05 -0500, Courtney Stastyshyn wrote: > I do not want to be involved in any emails with the ADS anymore. Everyone > please take me off your lists. http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html To leave the list at any time, send "SIGNOFF ADS-L" the complete body of an email message from the account which you would like to unsubscribe, to listserv at listserv.uga.edu. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 4 23:49:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:49:13 -0500 Subject: must-buy, must-read, must-see Message-ID: * must-buy (OED3 1979) 1934 _Chronicle Telegram_ (Elyria, Ohio) 23 Mar. 12/1 (advt.) Add this great value to your list of "must buys" for spring. 1940 _Chicago Tribune_ 18 Nov 17/7 When the dark fur coats finally get out into daily circulation, pastel colored thin wool dresses become a "must" buy for nearly every shopper. 1951 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Texas) 6 May 1/2 What are your must-buys for May? * must-read (OED3 1973) 1945 _Chicago Tribune_ 19 May 5/7 (advt.) It's the most-discussed novel of the season ... a must read if you like to keep up with the new books! 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 17 Feb. B1/8 With idealists shouting all over the world the need for better understanding in human relationships, here is a book that is a "must read" for every honest American. 1949 _Zanesville Signal_ (Ohio) 27 Nov. III9/5 A Must-Read Book about war hero Bernt Balchen: "Hitch Your Wagon." 1950 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 5 Feb. 14/1 A must-read for civilized people (and even the gullibles on pamphleteers' lists) is "The Strange Case of Merwin K. Hart" in Plain Talk mag for Feb. * must-see, n. (OED3 1976) 1936 _New York Times_ 17 Sep. 4/1 (advt.) A "must see" on your Entertainment program! 1937 _Washington Post_ 1 May 16/1 Recommended for the entire family; never dull; not a must-see, but in truth, a picture you will enjoy. 1939 _Port Arthur News_ (Texas) 29 Jan. B6/3 (heading) 'Jesse James' is a must-see on picture list. * must-see, a. (OED3 1991) 1936 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Aug 3/1 (advt.) It's a "must see show" now at the Biltmore Bowl. 1938 _Los Angeles Times_ 11 Mar. 15/7 (advt.) we advise everyone to chalk up 'Mad About Music' as a 'must see' picture! 1940 _Marion Star_ (Ohio) 20 July 5/4 (advt.) This is a must see attraction. 1943 _Portsmouth Herald_ (New Hampshire) 6/5 Dr. Valeria Parker, nationally known director of the Bureau of Marriage Counsel and Education, recommends it is a "must-see" picture for the entire family. --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 5 01:58:34 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: must-buy, must-read, must-see In-Reply-To: <28267.69.142.143.59.1104882553.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: I suppose "must-have" is the senior member of the group? I see it in 1878 at N'archive. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 5 03:20:42 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:20:42 -0800 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context In-Reply-To: <1104860084.41dad3b413d6f@webmail.siue.edu> Message-ID: It was the season four episode, in Act II of "Fear, Itself." The script is dated 8 Oct 1999. The episode was first broadcast 28 Oct 1999: "BUFFY Oh, he was such a pain! Twelve years old and I can't go trick-or-treating by myself. "[They're both laughing now.] "JOYCE He wanted to keep you safe. "BUFFY Nuh-uh, he wanted the candy. I was only the beard." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jim Parish > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:35 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context > > > If I recall correctly, the word was used in a non(gay/straight) context in > an episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" some years back; I'm > away from home > and can't check at the moment, but it was a Halloween episode, > either season > two (which would make it 1997) or season four (1999). In the > scene, Buffy's > mother commented that her (Buffy's) father used to love taking her > trick-or-treating; Buffy said something to the effect that he loved the > candy, and she was just the beard. (I'll be home in a couple of days; I'll > be able to give more precise information then.) > > Jim Parish > > Quoting "Mark A. Mandel" : > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > > Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------- > > > > Heard on NPR's "Le Show", 2004-12-19, song titled "Christmas in > Oblivion" > > about Bernie Kerik*: "A nanny would make a good beard". > Referring to Kerik's > > apparent invention of an undocumented nanny as an explanation > for his sudden > > departure from prominence, preferable to the revelation that he > had risen in > > the first place merely as an incompetent and ethically impaired > friend of > > the boss. > > > > *Dragon NaturallySpeaking initially misrecognized this name as "dirty > > character". Artificial intelligence? > > > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > SIUE Web Mail > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 03:40:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:40:01 EST Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits ... Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." Gotta keep Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. Is this from the late 1960s?..Nowadays, of course, people don't chant this and do stretching exercises to increase bust size. Alas. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _The Young Teen Scene_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=90628448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104895579&cl ientId=65882) By DOROTHY BRODERICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 8, 1970. p. 325 (3 pages) Third page: The best book of the seven and a good book by any terms, is _ARE YOU THERE GOD? IT'S ME, MARGARET_ by Judy Blume (Bradbury, $4.50). (...) The chant, "I must--I must--I must increase my bust!" accompanied by the appropriate exercises will evoke in older females memories of similar experiences. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 03:51:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:51:56 EST Subject: Tsunami (1867, 1896) Message-ID: Author _Medhurst, Walter Henry, 1796-1857._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aMedhurst,+Walter+Henry,+1796-1857./amedhurst+walter+henry+1796-1857/-5,-1,0 ,B/browse) Title An English and Japanese, and Japanese and English vocabulary : compiled from native works / by W. H. Medhurst. Imprint Batavia : [s.n.], 1830. Pg. 5: wave Na-mi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- Author _Hepburn, J. C. (James Curtis), 1815-1911._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aHepburn,+J.+C.+(James+Curtis),+1815-1911./ahepburn+j+c+james+curtis+ 1815-1911/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title A Japanese and English dictionary; with and English and Japanese index. By J.C. Hepburn. Imprint Shanghai, American Presbyterian Mission Press, 1867. Pg. 496: TSZNAMI, (Japanese--ed.), n. A large wave which rolls over and inundates the land. ------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author _Brinkley, F. (Frank), 1841-1912._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aBrinkley,+F.+(Frank),+1841-1912./abrinkley+f+frank+1841-1912/-5,-1,0,B/browse ) Title An unabridged Japanese-English dictionary, with copious illustrations, by Capt. F. Brinkley...F. Nanj¯o...Y. Iwasaki...with cooperation of Prof. K. Mitsukuri in zoological terms, Prof. J. Matsumura in botanical terms. Imprint T¯oky¯o, Sanseid¯o [1896] Pg. 1534: Tsunami n. A large rolling wave which inundates the land. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 5 03:52:11 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:52:11 -0500 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:20 PM -0800 1/4/05, Dave Wilton wrote: >It was the season four episode, in Act II of "Fear, Itself." The script is >dated 8 Oct 1999. The episode was first broadcast 28 Oct 1999: > >"BUFFY Oh, he was such a pain! Twelve years old and I can't go >trick-or-treating by myself. > >"[They're both laughing now.] > >"JOYCE He wanted to keep you safe. > >"BUFFY Nuh-uh, he wanted the candy. I was only the beard." > >--Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > http://www.wilton.net > It may be worth noting that the gambling uses of "beard" predate that of the opposite-sex-companion one in HDAS, although obviously the 1971 citation of the latter in Bruce Rodgers's _Queens' Vernacular_ reflects prevailing usage (he has "known in Las Vegas mid-60's" for that use, which he defines as 'a woman who dates homosexual men to help them socially; to date a women to prevent suspicion of being homosexual'). The gambling uses go back to 1955 in print but was apparently extant much earlier: "T. Betts", _Across the Board_ 15 [ref. to ca 1920]: I played horses, using men as betting commissioners, or "beards" as they were called at the race track. op. cit., 171: He needed a beard on this coup; he never could have bought it on his own. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 04:05:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:05:58 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$4irntp@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits FWIW, my wife remembers this chant from early in her adolescence, ca.1958, in Kingston, a town in the Wyoming Valley region of NE Penna. -Wilson Gray > ... > Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." > Gotta keep > Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. Is this from the late > 1960s?..Nowadays, of course, people don't chant this and do stretching > exercises to increase > bust size. Alas. > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > _The Young Teen Scene_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=90628448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1104895579&cl > ientId=65882) > By DOROTHY BRODERICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, > N.Y.: Nov > 8, 1970. p. 325 (3 pages) > Third page: > The best book of the seven and a good book by any terms, is _ARE YOU > THERE > GOD? IT'S ME, MARGARET_ by Judy Blume (Bradbury, $4.50). (...) The > chant, "I > must--I must--I must increase my bust!" accompanied by the appropriate > exercises will evoke in older females memories of similar > experiences. > From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Jan 4 23:40:26 2005 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:40:26 +0000 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <1B0A0FA9-5ECF-11D9-AC58-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: In the interests of historical accuracy (yeah, right), I submit the full rhyme as I learned it, circa 1972: We MUST We MUST We MUST increase our BUSTS The BIGger the better the BOYS will love us we MUST increase our BUSTS! -WRN At 04:05 AM 1/5/05, you wrote: >On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits > >FWIW, my wife remembers this chant from early in her adolescence, >ca.1958, in Kingston, a town in the Wyoming Valley region of NE Penna. > >-Wilson Gray > >>... >>Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." >>Gotta keep >>Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. Is this from the late >>1960s?..Nowadays, of course, people don't chant this and do stretching >>exercises to increase >>bust size. Alas. >>... >>... >>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >>_The Young Teen Scene_ >>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? >> > index=0&did=90628448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 >> > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1104895579&cl >> > ientId=65882) >>By DOROTHY BRODERICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, >>N.Y.: Nov >>8, 1970. p. 325 (3 pages) >>Third page: >>The best book of the seven and a good book by any terms, is _ARE YOU >>THERE >>GOD? IT'S ME, MARGARET_ by Judy Blume (Bradbury, $4.50). (...) The >>chant, "I >>must--I must--I must increase my bust!" accompanied by the appropriate >>exercises will evoke in older females memories of similar >>experiences. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 05:05:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary > http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > > Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. > Gonzales > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina > Coast > "Gullah" reminds me of "geechee." Among blacks in East Texas along the border with Louisiana, this term, _geechee_, is applied to blacks from Louisiana, particularly those who speak what's known to ETx blacks as "Gumbo French." It also is applied to black Louisianans with French (sur)names, e.g. the bluesmen Clifton Chenier and Jean Baptiste "J.B." LeNoir, the jazzman Jean Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet, the R&B singers the Trenier Twins and Antoine "Fats" Domino. Sometimes, merely speaking an obviously non-Texas dialect, such as that of New Orleans, is enough to render a person geechee. There's no opprobrium that attaches to being considered geechee, -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 5 05:39:46 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:39:46 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: >From: Wilson Gray >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Sent: 1/4/2005 11:05 PM >Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words > >There's no opprobrium that attaches to >being considered geechee, In the movie "A Soldier's Story" (1984), the character played by Adolph Caesar (what an actor he was) called someone a "geechee nigger", and he sure wasn't being complimentary about either part. I got the clear impression that there was some sort of class thing going on there -- that geechee was something like hillbilly or hick or redneck, to his character (which was regular army all the way). Don't know if this sequence was original to the play on which the movie was based. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 5 06:56:31 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:56:31 -0600 Subject: sports antedates and cites Message-ID: back-field (n, American football) (OED has 1923) "Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes. Football." Arthur Inkersley, _Outing_, December, 1896, No. 3, p. 290/2 "With Morice doing the kicking, and a better man at quarter, Penn's team will be very strong, for her line men are unusually strong, and the individuals in the back-field are fairly so." center (n; basketball) (OED does not have a specific basketball sense) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 227/2 "The center closes in toward his own goal when it is in danger, but the instant one of his guards has secured the ball, he stands ready to take it on the pass and send it on to the forwards, either by a second pass or by dribbling it up the field." dribble (v, trans; basketball) (OED does not have basketball sense; "dribbled" is in a 1951 cite for "lay-in") "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 226/1 "The players cannot carry the ball nor can they kick it, the method of progressing being restricted to passing, batting or "dribbling" the ball." field-goal (American football) (OED has 1902) "Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes. Football." J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1898, No. 3, p. 316/2 "If the touchdown counted but three points, and the goal from it but one more, the five which a field-goal now earns would be more in keeping with its relative value, and also lessen the present probability of tie games." forward (n; basketball) (OED does not have basketball sense) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 227/1 "The forwards conduct most of the attack and it is generally their work to throw the goals, while the guards conduct the defense." foul tip (OED has 1889) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 162/2 "This is called a "foul tip," and puts the batsman out." free-throw (n) (OED does not have basketball sense, but it appears in a 1955 cite for "back-board") "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 226/2 "The game is scored by points, but there are only two methods of making points-goals from the field and goals from free throws." guard (n) (American football position) (OED has 1897) "The Game and Laws of American Football," Walter C. Camp, _Outing_, October, 1886, No. 1, p. 70/1 "The "right" and "left guard" and the "next-to-the-ends" are relatively every bit as important as the individual positions above described; but every team has a different way of using these men, and the methods depend entirely upon the qualifications of the men-the only real separation being in the fact that the "guards" have to act more as assistants of the center, and the others of the wings or "ends." " full-back (n, American football position) (OED has 1887) "Our Monthly Record," _Outing_, December, 1886, p. 281 col 1. "The teams were: Yale - Rushers, Corwin, Gill, Woodruff, Corbin, Carter, Hamlin, Wallace; quarterback, Beacher; halfbacks, Watkinson and Morrison; fullback, Durant." guard (n) (basketball) (OED has 1905) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 227/1 "A basket-ball team is made up of five players, corresponding closely to the forwards, center, and backs of Association football. They act as right and left forwards, the center, and right and left guards. " infield (n, baseball) (OED has 1906 for the sense of the group of players who play in the infield) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 162/1 "These four men constitute the "infield" of the team." p. 163/1 "The Infield-A term applied to the first, second, third baseman and short-stop." make (v) (OED sense 52.e, "make a team", 1902) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 226/1 "The competitive side of the sport interests men to keep in condition by a course of basket-ball, who otherwise would refuse point-blank to train during the winter; and class and inter-class games, with a few inter-collegiate matches, serve to add enough interest to make the 'varsity basket-ball team almost as difficult to "make" as the football and baseball teams." rush (v, American football) (OED has 1949) "Editors Open Window," _Outing_, January, 1887, p. 377/2. "Harvard and Princeton have largely confined their efforts to improvement in running with the ball, or 'rushing,' as it is technically called." "Our Monthly Record," _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 186/1 "Last year the snapper-back could not rush the ball until it had touched a third man." slide (v, baseball) (OED has 1891) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 164/1 "Slide-When a base-runner sees that there is a chance of the fielders getting the ball to the base for which he is making before he gets there himself, he will plunge head first, or feet first, for the bag, sliding over the ground upon his stomach or back, a distance of ten feet or more to the base; this is called base-sliding, and is a reckless and daring feature of the game that invariably arouses much enthusiasm in America." tackle (n, American football position) (OED has 1891) "Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes. Football." Arthur Inkersley, Outing, December, 1896, p. 290/2 "McCracken is a very strong player at either guard or tackle, and can fill any vacancy at either of these places quite satisfactorily. " touch-back (n, American football) (OED has 1891) "Our Monthly Record," _Outing_, July, 1888, p. 381/1 "A "touch back" is a new term, and was defined as""made when a player touches the ball to the ground behind his goal, the impetus which sent the ball across the line having been received from opponents." " From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 5 08:09:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:09:13 -0500 Subject: nail-biting/bitingly/biter Message-ID: * nail-biting, a. = 'tense, suspenseful' (OED3 1962) 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Nov. II2/3 Natural melodrama resulting from a U-boat's stalking of an allied freighter, and the undersea prowler's eventual destruction, generates enough nail-biting suspense for anyone. 1950 _Washington Post_ 16 June C9/1 It's got believable characters, nail-biting suspense and that canny thing called style. 1951 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 9 Dec. 39/2 The screenplay, now at the Midtown, also was written by Williams, and it makes a nerve-wracking, nail-biting film. 1952 _New York Times_ 5 Nov. 41/2 Dalray kept his backers guessing until the final furlongs, producing a nail-biting finish which matched the pre-race confusion. * nail-bitingly (OED3 1961) 1958 _New York Times_ 28 Mar. 29/3 All of these dangerous adventures are severely, nail-bitingly tense. * nail-biter = 'a suspenseful event, situation, etc.' (OED3 1971) 1957 _New York Times_ 1 Nov. 31/1 (advt.) A chase story -- a real nail-biter! [Quoting Newsweek review of the film _Across The Bridge_] 1958 _Holland Evening Sentinel_ (Michigan) 21 July 9/1 Bunning's effort crescendoed into a nail-biter in the ninth inning. 1958 _Washington Post_ 21 Sep. C7/1 Chevy Chase won the Interclub League B division championship, defeating Buckingham in a playoff that was a real nail-biter. 1959 _Washington Post_ 28 Feb. A10/7 George Washington University was defeated in a nail-biter by The Citadel, 53-52. --Ben Zimmer From indigo at WELL.COM Wed Jan 5 09:12:11 2005 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 01:12:11 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: I remember the last line (circa 1976-7) as: The BIGger the better, the TIGHTer the sweater, the BOYS are depending on us! Was that the version in Are You There God, It's Me Margaret? Must also say, none of us ever took it seriously. We thought it was ridiculous. We girls all read that book (& all other Blume books, including the scandalous, permission-slip-necessary Forever) but could not remotely understand why she wanted her period so badly (or at all). I guess second-wave feminism was having some kind of impact in Marin County, CA. >In the interests of historical accuracy (yeah, right), I submit the full >rhyme as I learned it, circa 1972: > >We MUST >We MUST >We MUST increase our BUSTS >The BIGger the better the BOYS will love us we MUST increase our BUSTS! > >-WRN -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Fetish of the week: flannel pajamas From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 5 09:47:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 04:47:00 -0500 Subject: name-drop/dropper/dropping Message-ID: * name-dropper (OED3 1947) 1939 _Los Angeles Times_ 17 Jan. II5/5 "My pet aversion," she said, "is the name dropper, the type that is always saying: 'Well, J.P. told me yesterday and when I had lunch with the P. of W., he said--' I say to them: 'The P. of What?' 'The P. of W., the Prince of Wales, of course,' they say." 1940 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 28 Oct. 15/1 The one about the name-dropper at Club 18, who kept telling stories about himself with big-shots and celebrities until Jack White, who couldn't stand it any longer, heckled: "Say, lissen! Don't you know any common people?" * name-dropping, n. (OED3 1950) 1945 _Washington Post_ 4 Oct. 14/5 When it's all over, quite a number of former servicemen will be able to go home and say, "When I was at the White House..." "As the President said to me..." "That time I was dancing with Margaret Truman..." and these fellows won't be just name dropping either. 1948 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Texas) 30 Oct. 4/4 At any rate the release of this letter which Horch put out was a job of name-dropping and worthy of that master name-dropper Felix Frankfurter himself. 1950 _Waukesha Daily Freeman_ (wisconsin) 31 Aug. 17/1 A fast line, grandiose claims, a firecracker string of name-droppings, introductions to cronies in Broadway haunts who back up the imposter's false claims -- these add up to beguiling the innocent. * name-dropping, a. (OED3 1966) 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 26 Aug. II5/3 Here is a story WITHOUT names for this name-dropping column. 1950 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 25 July 9/1 A name-dropping author who returned from Hollywood was asked if he'd sold a script. 1954 _Los Angeles Times 19 Oct. 26/2 If there was one objection, it was to the "name-dropping" habit of these super one-shots. * name-drop, v. trans. (OED3 1975) 1948 _Berkshire Evening Eagle_ (Pittsfield, Mass.) 3 Sep. 3/7 Once, in desperation after failing to evoke receptivity by repeatedly name-dropping Franklin Roosevelt, Henry searched helplessly for some established political names with which to sanctify himself by association. * name-drop, v. intr. (OED3 1955) 1950 _Nevada State Journal_ 20 Jan. 4/5 During the past couple of weeks, almost every one of our guests -- and if I haven't name-dropped enough, the roster included Lily Pons and Sir Cedric Hardwicke -- has taken the trouble to write or phone and tell us what a memorable evening it was. 1951 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 27 Apr. 59/7 This appalled Berlin, who took him to the uppitty joynt, where Irving indignantly name-dropped to the manager: "Do you realize who this is? He wrote 'Old Black Magic' and 'Stormy Weather!'" * name-drop, n. (OED3 1964) 1951 _Reno Evening Gazette_ (Nevada) 11 Jan. 6/7 It is certainly natural that promoters of concert, television and radio would attempt to corral Miss Truman, if she sang no better than Donald Duck, merely for the name-drop value. --Ben Zimmer From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 5 10:59:10 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:59:10 +0000 Subject: Eggheads' Naughty Word Games In-Reply-To: <200412280549.iBS5nRlk001527@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 28/12/04 5:49 am, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Eggheads' Naughty Word Games > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:22 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > >> At 10:02 PM -0500 12/27/04, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> Arnold, >>> >>> You probably don't know this, but Strausbaugh more often writes for >>> the >>> alternative-alternative weekly, New York Press, here in New York City. >>> He's a crank import from Baltimore--the classic uncompassionate >>> conservative with about as much goodwill and charisma as can fit in a >>> skeeter sphincter. His M.O. is, typically, to take any view which >>> opposes what he perceives as the traditional Village Voice editorial >>> stance. He writes about sports sometimes, too, because he thinks it >>> makes him more likeable. It doesn't. >>> >>> You practice your two-step, I'll bring the coffee table. >> >> and lest one think it's only those lit critters' ox that's being >> gored, one of the apparently too-silly-to-contemplate titles mocked >> in the article is the eminently interesting >> "Dude! Your dress is so cute! Patterns of semantic widening in >> 'dude'", which, Mr. Strausbaugh informs us, represents "an almost >> abject embrace of low/popular culture". Evidently, if "dude" used to >> be applied solely to males and is now generalized to women as well, >> at least as a vocative, and thus is following in the footsteps of >> "guy", this isn't something we need to worry our pretty little heads >> about. Clearly this is all just too infra dig when it applies to >> low/popular cultural items, although perhaps we're allowed to notice >> it when it affects words of middlebrow standing or above. (Perhaps >> this is the same research by Scott Kiesling reported in that cnn.com >> piece mentioned earlier this month, >> http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/08/dude.study.ap/index.html >> --but this would only be more evidence that the media is paying too >> much attention to us table-dancers.) > > i've tried to keep the tone of this discussion on the light side, but > here larry makes explicit a vein of moral outrage that i want to > expose. the uses of words and other expressions make differences in > our lives; they are not morally neutral. belittling particular uses > dismisses the people who use them, not to mention those of us who study > the people who use them. > > power to the table-dancers! > > arnold Hey - I used to be an ass-man, until a feminist pointed out that this was sexist: so now I'm an ass-person. Neil Crawford neil at typog.co.uk From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Jan 5 12:10:12 2005 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:10:12 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: >===== Original Message From American Dialect Society ===== >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Indigo Som >Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > >I remember the last line (circa 1976-7) as: >The BIGger the better, the TIGHTer the sweater, the BOYS are depending on us! > The version imprinted on my brain (because accompanied by startling exercises in a garage in Monte Vista CO, circa 1974) was: You MUST You MUST Exercise your BUST For FEAR For FEAR It will disapPEAR Orin Hargraves From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 14:23:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:23:34 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> From: Wilson Gray >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Sent: 1/4/2005 11:05 PM >> Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words >> >> There's no opprobrium that attaches to >> being considered geechee, > > In the movie "A Soldier's Story" (1984), the character played by Adolph > Caesar (what an actor he was) called someone a "geechee nigger", and > he sure > wasn't being complimentary about either part. I got the clear > impression > that there was some sort of class thing going on there -- that geechee > was > something like hillbilly or hick or redneck, to his character (which > was > regular army all the way). Don't know if this sequence was original > to the > play on which the movie was based. > Yes, I remember that. I've seen both the play once and the movie several times and I agree with your interpretation of the meaning of the language used in that scene. FWIW, both DARE and HDAS also agree with you WRT the negative reading. In any case, what I apparently failed to make clear is that I'm claiming that it's only in the part of *Texas* that I'm from that "geechee" isn't ever an insult, but merely a descriptor, like saying that a person is "black-headed" (brunette). I didn't intend to imply that what's true for East Texas is universally true. -Wilson Gray From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 14:33:47 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:33:47 EST Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: In a message dated > Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:40:01 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM > > I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits > ... > Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." Gotta > keep > Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. "abreast"??? Wash your keyboard out with soap!! - Jim Landau From larry at SCROGGS.COM Wed Jan 5 14:39:37 2005 From: larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 06:39:37 -0800 Subject: I MUST INCREASE MY BUST In-Reply-To: <20050105045737.DF76023C5FF@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits I attended a small rural high school in Limestone, Maine in 1961-62. One or two days a week we had co-ed physical education in the school gym. The boys would use half the gym and the girls the other half and we were usually separated by a sliding vinyl partition. I clearly recall the girls chanting "We must, we must, develop our busts." while doing isometric exercises for the chest muscles. Sometimes the boys and girls were brought together to learn ballroom dancing. As I recall. it was quite enjoyable for a young, shy freshman like myself. Larry Larry at Scroggs.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 5 15:32:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:32:02 -0800 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: Thirty years ago (that's a full generation ago, for those like me who need a reminder) a fellow graduate student described herself to me as a "geechee" because she came from rural, coastal South Carolina. Evidently the word applies to whites as well. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 2, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary > http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > > Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. > Gonzales > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina > Coast > "Gullah" reminds me of "geechee." Among blacks in East Texas along the border with Louisiana, this term, _geechee_, is applied to blacks from Louisiana, particularly those who speak what's known to ETx blacks as "Gumbo French." It also is applied to black Louisianans with French (sur)names, e.g. the bluesmen Clifton Chenier and Jean Baptiste "J.B." LeNoir, the jazzman Jean Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet, the R&B singers the Trenier Twins and Antoine "Fats" Domino. Sometimes, merely speaking an obviously non-Texas dialect, such as that of New Orleans, is enough to render a person geechee. There's no opprobrium that attaches to being considered geechee, -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Wed Jan 5 16:04:14 2005 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:04:14 -0500 Subject: Lansing State Journal claims Message-ID: The Lansing State Journal announced on 12/23 that UP English, "Yooper-speak", is dying out. http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041223/O PINION01/412230329&SearchID=73195139373021 The January 1 edition also claims that the 30-year-old Lake Superior State University "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for Mis-Use, Over-Use, and General Uselessness" was imitated by the ADS "Words of the Year". How long has the ADS been doing this, and did the idea come from the LSSU list, as the LSJ claims? Herb From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 5 16:31:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:31:14 -0500 Subject: Lansing State Journal claims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somebody who was in the field at the time might have more information about whether the idea was copied (or if it matters or even if anyone gives a hoot), but the banished words lists does date to around 1975 or so, as an article from 1980 calls that year's list the 6th annual, which makes this year their 31st annual, if I calculate correctly. The first ADS WOTY list is for 1990, which makes this year its 15th annual. Grant Barrett On Jan 5, 2005, at 11:04, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: > The January 1 edition also claims that the 30-year-old Lake Superior > State University "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for > Mis-Use, Over-Use, and General Uselessness" was imitated by the ADS > "Words of the Year". How long has the ADS been doing this, and did the > idea come from the LSSU list, as the LSJ claims? From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Wed Jan 5 16:52:37 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:52:37 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" Message-ID: Is the above word current enough to be used in print without explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this morning's Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." A very useful word, I think. TOM PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 16:55:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:55:08 -0500 Subject: sports antedates and cites (slide); Lansing claims to WOTY Message-ID: SLIDE slide (v, baseball) (OED has 1891) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 164/1 "Slide-When a base-runner sees that there is a chance of the fielders getting the ball to the base for which he is making before he gets there himself, he will plunge head first, or feet first, for the bag, sliding over the ground upon his stomach or back, a distance of ten feet or more to the base; this is called base-sliding, and is a reckless and daring feature of the game that invariably arouses much enthusiasm in America. It's earlier than this, but the Sporting News starts here. 29 March 1886, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 6, col. 4: "Hey there Gus," said Charley, "I hear that you are teaching your boys how to slide. How do they go, old boy. On rollers, head or feet first, or do they wear a sliding pad. How do they go, anyhow?" "Every which way," said Gus. "Sometimes they slide head first and sometimes feet first, and then again they come every which way. Look out for 'em, Charley." -------------------------------------------------------------- LANSING CLAIMS Yes, the Banished Words List was first. But it's not like anyone has invented a "best of the year" list, preventing all others from doing so. Britannica was doing words of the year even before Lake Superior. Should the Lake Superior people give some kind of asterisk when they present their work? From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 5 16:55:22 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:55:22 +0000 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: <200501051652.j05GqnRv002313@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 5/1/05 4:52 pm, Thomas Paikeday at thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Thomas Paikeday > Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = > explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this morning's = > Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael = > Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. > > I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is = > used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." > > A very useful word, I think. > > TOM PAIKEDAY > www.paikeday.net Shouldn't that be 'daughter in law - not!' Neil Crawford neil at typog.co.uk From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Jan 5 17:04:57 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:04:57 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: <200501050623400.SM01664@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some of the resources below may be of interest. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on amix of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." African Languages http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html World Creoles http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html American Virgin Islands Creole http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html best, Karen Ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 5 17:10:16 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:10:16 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050105050029.56BC4B2482@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from the sixties. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 5 18:13:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:13:08 -0800 Subject: more mothers on language Message-ID: from my daughter: lots of opinions about english... http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php? az=show_topics&forum=18&topic_id=14114&mode=full&page= arnold From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 18:37:59 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:37:59 EST Subject: Geechee Message-ID: In a message dated 1/4/2005 9:20:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender:     American Dialect Society > Poster:     Wilson Gray > Subject:    Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > On Jan 2, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender:     American Dialect Society > >Poster:     Jerry E Kane > >Subject:    A Glossary of Gullah Words > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-------- > > > >Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary > >http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > > > >Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. > >Gonzales > > > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina > >Coast > > > > "Gullah" reminds me of "geechee." Among blacks in East Texas along the > border with Louisiana, this term, _geechee_, is applied to blacks from > Louisiana, particularly those who speak what's known to ETx blacks as > "Gumbo French."  It also is applied to black Louisianans with French > (sur)names, e.g. the bluesmen Clifton Chenier and Jean Baptiste "J.B." > LeNoir, the jazzman Jean Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet, the R&B singers > the Trenier Twins and Antoine "Fats" Domino. Sometimes, merely speaking > an obviously non-Texas dialect, such as that of New Orleans, is enough > to render a person geechee. There's no opprobrium that attaches to > being considered geechee, > > -Wilson Gray > According to the American Heritage Dictionary the word Geechee derives from the Ogeechee  River. Geechee. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. A snippet from the following website: It is believed the name Ogeechee comes from the Muskogean word meaning "River of the Yuchis," which was an Indian tribe that lived near the river. Sherpa Guides | Georgia | Coast | Savannah | Ogeechee River http://sherpaguides.com/georgia/coast/northern_coast/ogeechee_river.html Map of the Ogeechee River: Sherpa Guides | Georgia | Coast | Ossabaw Island http://sherpaguides.com/georgia/coast/northern_coast/ossabaw_island_map.html Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 5 18:50:45 2005 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:50:45 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050105120920.N13738@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "We must, we must, we must increase our bust. It's better, it's better, it's better for the sweater." H.S. Lasseter High School. Macon, GA. 1965. Brenda K. Lester "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from the sixties. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 5 19:10:59 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:10:59 -0600 Subject: horse's neck, gin fizz, hoboland, grafter Message-ID: horse's neck (OED: "horse's neck slang (orig. U.S.), a beverage of ginger ale flavoured with lemon-peel, with or without the addition of whisky, brandy, or gin; horse's tail"; 1903) "Down to the Finals," Chicago Daily Tribune; Jul 7, 1900; pg. 6/5 "The weather man and the dispenser of "high balls," "horses necks," and "gin fizzes" have a perfect understanding." Gin fizz (OED has 1891, I think Barry has taken it back to 1880's) "A Bar Maid's Bonanza." The Atlanta Constitution; Nov 19, 1886; pg. 4/2 "She dispensed gin fizzes and killing glances with a fascinating abandon that knocked her admirers silly, if we may be allowed to dropinto the expressive slang of the period." "HUTCHINSON OUTPITCHES CLARKSON." Chicago Daily Tribune; Jul 5, 1890; pg. 6/3 "He could not celebrate in the orthodox fashion, as he is too old for firecrackers and bombs, and cocktails and gin fizz are tabooed by watchful managers of ball clubs." hoboland (not in OED) FUND RAISED BY YEGGMEN. Los Angeles Times; Apr 26, 1903; pg. C1/3 "Capt. Bradish said it was a common thing in hoboland." grafter (OED 3rd entry, sense 1, 1899) "A PICKPOCKET'S DEVICE." Los Angeles Times; Mar 26, 1895; pg. 12/2 "With the aid of this instrument, the "grafter" can reach into a man's pocket and abstact his purse a great deal more deftly than with his naked digits." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 19:16:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:16:36 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$4kklvd@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from > the > sixties. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > I had never heard of this at all, till my wife mentioned it, one time. And, even after that, I had only the impression that it was just something that she and her girl friends had made up as they approached puberty back in the late '50's. But it turns out to be known by women from all over the country. Who'd a thunk it?! -Wilson Gray From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 5 19:19:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:19:08 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:55 PM +0000 1/5/05, neil wrote: >on 5/1/05 4:52 pm, Thomas Paikeday at thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Thomas Paikeday >> Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = >> explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this morning's = >> Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael = >> Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. >> >> I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is = >> used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." >> >> A very useful word, I think. >> >> TOM PAIKEDAY >> www.paikeday.net > >Shouldn't that be 'daughter in law - not!' >Neil Crawford >neil at typog.co.uk For ages, I've heard the term "out-law", which does strike me as more elegant than "not-in-law", but almost always applied collectively ("my out-laws"). Also, I'd think either an out-law or a not-in-law would be more than a boy/girlfriend simpliciter, entailing living-with or a longterm, stable, committed (whatever) relationship. L From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 19:27:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:27:07 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 11:52 AM, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Thomas Paikeday > Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = > explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this > morning's = > Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael = > Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. > > I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is = > used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." > > A very useful word, I think. > > TOM PAIKEDAY > www.paikeday.net > This is new to me. But I do recall "roommate-in-law," "girlfriend-in-law," and "boyfriend-in-law," all with the meaning of "a roommate's or housemate's significant other," from the '70's. -Wilson Gray From soma at CRYINGMIME.COM Wed Jan 5 19:51:11 2005 From: soma at CRYINGMIME.COM (Rob Swyter) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:51:11 -0700 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: > -------- Original Message -------- > > I had never heard of this at all, till my wife mentioned it, one time. > And, even after that, I had only the impression that it was just > something that she and her girl friends had made up as they approached > puberty back in the late '50's. But it turns out to be known by women > from all over the country. It's also the title and subject of a song by the group Lords Of Acid, on their album "Lust" released in 1990. It's a great dance song, i must admit, though the lyrics may be seen as crude by some. Rob From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 20:14:14 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:14:14 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:04 PM, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround > Subject: Re: geechee > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Some of the resources below may be of interest. > > Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. > (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words > "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I > had > grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll tell everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every word I say will be true." -Wilson Gray > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html > > > > "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on > amix > of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." > > African Languages > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html > > World Creoles > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html > > American Virgin Islands Creole > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html > > best, > Karen Ellis > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > The Educational CyberPlayGround > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ > > National Children's Folksong Repository > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > Hot List of Schools Online and > Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html > > 7 Hot Site Awards > New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, > USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 5 20:19:37 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:19:37 -0500 Subject: Question about online dictionaries Message-ID: Someone on another list that I subscribe to asks: This by way of asking if you have an opinion about dictionary.com (American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition plus [depending on the word] many other sources) vs m-w. Nothing like a print dictionary for sitting down and reading, but more and more I'm relying on the web. -------- Opinions, anyone? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 5 20:26:41 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:26:41 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" Message-ID: I sometimes refer to my daughter's live-in boyfriend of these last 10 years as my de facto son-in-law (as opposed to de jure). GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2005 2:19 pm Subject: Re: "daughter-not-in-law" > At 4:55 PM +0000 1/5/05, neil wrote: > >on 5/1/05 4:52 pm, Thomas Paikeday at thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Thomas Paikeday > >> Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >--> - > >> > >> Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = > >> explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this > morning's = > >> Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed > Michael = > >> Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. > >> > >> I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where > it is = > >> used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." > >> > >> A very useful word, I think. > >> > >> TOM PAIKEDAY > >> www.paikeday.net > > > >Shouldn't that be 'daughter in law - not!' > >Neil Crawford > >neil at typog.co.uk > > For ages, I've heard the term "out-law", which does strike me as more > elegant than "not-in-law", but almost always applied collectively > ("my out-laws"). > > Also, I'd think either an out-law or a not-in-law would be more than > a boy/girlfriend simpliciter, entailing living-with or a longterm, > stable, committed (whatever) relationship. > > L > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jan 5 23:07:32 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:07:32 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: <6f393e6f7f24.6f7f246f393e@nyu.edu> Message-ID: >I sometimes refer to my daughter's live-in boyfriend of these last 10 >years as my de facto son-in-law (as opposed to de jure). > >GAT ~~~~~~~~~ I always rather liked the oxymoronic "illegitimate son-in-law." A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Jan 5 22:24:32 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:24:32 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: <200501051214142.SM01664@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry Wilson, Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic always brings up a lot of baggage. I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk for Linguists from all over the world interested in creole & dialect speakers. I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching elementary school. see: http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html best, karen > > Some of the resources below may be of interest. > > > > Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. > > (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words > > "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I > > had > > grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. > >it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - >correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican >right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from >the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my >class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I >was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. >As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll tell >everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every >word I say will be true." > >-Wilson Gray > > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html > > > > > > > > "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on > > amix > > of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." > > > > African Languages > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html > > > > World Creoles > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html > > > > American Virgin Islands Creole > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html > > > > best, > > Karen Ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 6 03:19:48 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:19:48 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround > Subject: Re: geechee > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sorry Wilson, > > Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic > always brings up a lot of baggage. > I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk > for Linguists from all over the world > interested in creole & dialect speakers. > > I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching > elementary school. see: > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html > > best, > karen Don't worry. All is forgiven.;-) I find the topic fascinating. In fact, years ago, a friend of mine went so far as to suggest that none other than the late great Raven McDavid would be interested in the change in meaning of "geechee" in the course of its travels from, presumably, South Carolina to Texas. However, I never had the nerve to contact the great man about something that strikes me as rather trivial. To me, the fact that the word survived transportation to Texas is more interesting than the change in meaning that it underwent there. A lot of black Texan families, including the family of your humble correspondent, have their roots in South Carolina. Interestingly enough, "geechee" is a common household term that I learned as a child, but I know "Gullah" only as a literary term. FWIW, with reference to New Orleans and other locations in Louisiana, "creole" is pronounced as approximately "kree-awl" in my native version of BE. Justice Thomas is a whole 'nother story. But I'm more than willing to let that sleeping dog lie. -Wilson > >>> Some of the resources below may be of interest. >>> >>> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. >>> (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words >>> "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and >>> I >>> had >>> grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. >> >> it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - >> correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican >> right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from >> the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my >> class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I >> was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. >> As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll >> tell >> everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every >> word I say will be true." >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html >>> >>> >>> >>> "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on >>> amix >>> of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." >>> >>> African Languages >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html >>> >>> World Creoles >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html >>> >>> American Virgin Islands Creole >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html >>> >>> best, >>> Karen Ellis > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > The Educational CyberPlayGround > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ > > National Children's Folksong Repository > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > Hot List of Schools Online and > Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html > > 7 Hot Site Awards > New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, > USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jan 6 06:12:28 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 01:12:28 -0500 Subject: Mutant 'dirty' word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Recently I ran across (in a piece of modern Japanese, uh, literature) the word "imarachio" (written in katakana): the context suggested that this denoted a sex act. Of course Japanese "ferachio" = "fellatio" is quite common (often abbreviated "fera"), and virtually any English-language word related to sex is common in Japanese, judging from the Web. But what is "imarachio"? Could it be "irrumatio"? Casual Google using katakana indicates that it is indeed "irrumatio". But "irrumatio" should be "irumachio" in Japanese, shouldn't it? Or possibly "irumate[i]o" with subscripted "i" kana? Well, the approximate 'raw' Google numbers are: "irumachio" [katakana] 200 "iramachio" [katakana] 14,700 "imarachio" [katakana] 7,700 "iramate[i]o" [katakana] 400 For comparison, in Latin alphabet (obviously sampling a much larger segment of the Web): "irrumatio" 900 "irrumation" 1,200 Quick glance at a few Japanese-language sites (including Wikipedia) indicates that the sense is the same as in English, more or less, "irrumatio" indicating a greater degree of vigor on the part of the irrumator (or fellatee) by comparison with "fellatio". There are two linguistic questions here: (1) why "iramachio" (usually) instead of "irumachio"; (2) why "imarachio" (often) instead of "iramachio". Perhaps some of the scholars who are expert in Japanese can enlighten me. Meanwhile, here are my sophomoric ruminations. It is likely that "irrumatio" was adopted proximately from English and probably largely from written English, so perhaps the notion was that the second vowel would be that in the English word "rum", giving "iramachio". The mutation to "imarachio" is peculiar. My callow speculation: the activity is a form of fellatio ("ferachio") so its name should end in "-rachio". I wonder whether there is influence from Japanese "ima" = "now", i.e., "ima" + "[fe]rachio" = "now-[fe]llatio", an 'urgent' form of fellatio. Perhaps somewhere among those thousands of Japanese Web-sites these questions are answered. Am I missing something? "Irrumatio" was of course introduced on this list last year. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 14:16:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:16:26 -0500 Subject: down-talk Message-ID: "I don't have to down-talk Oklahoma," said Reggie Bush, USC's sophomore general yard-gainer. "Everyone saw the way we played, saw the way Oklahoma played. It's really pretty self-explanatory." http://cnnsi.com/2005/writers/stewart_mandel/01/04/mandel.orange/ "Down-talk" is an apparent inversion of "talk down (to)" on the model of "play down > downplay". (The sports usage may also be influenced by "talk trash > trash-talk".) Nothing in OED, HDAS, MWCD, etc., though HDAS does have "downmouth" (supposedly a blend of "downgrade" and "badmouth"). Here are some cites (beginning with "down-talking", ppl. a./vbl. n.): ------------ PMLA, Vol. 53, Supplement, 1938, p. 1316 (JSTOR) I am not sure that preference for such down-talking books is creditable to instructors. New York Times, Jan 8, 1961, Book Review, p. 38 (Proquest) Mr. Flesch, I am sure, is aware of the perils of down-talking and down-writing; a person of limited vocabulary ... not only does not mind the unfamiliar word, but is likely to be flattered by having it addressed to him. New York Times, Dec 12, 1965, p. F13 (Proquest) "If any characteristics are shared by a broad majority of this generation," he declared, "they are literacy, widened interest, faith in the future ... and an uncanny ability to spot phony, insincere, pompous, down-talking, fuzzy-minded approaches." New York Times, Feb 9, 1969, Magazine p. 44 (Proquest) More often it has that styleless, pyramidal dullness of the journalism school, and at times it is downright down-talking Daily Newsy ("Powell Appeal 'Goofed'"). Newark Advocate (OH), Jan 8, 1971, p. 2 (N-archive) We know they want to downtalk the bad and talk up the good to sell peace instead of the true meaning of communism. Valley News (Van Nuys, CA), Feb 8, 1973, p. 20 (N-archive) Anderson himself doesn't exactly "downtalk" his class of women, but he does try to explain things in housewife terms. Daily Intelligencer (Doylestown, PA), Sep 11, 1976, Supp. p. 7 (N-archive) After downtalking his backfield, Hellman calls his team an eager bunch who are improving every week. Daily Herald (Chicago, IL), Jun 1, 1982, Sec. 4, p. 1 (N-archive) "I wouldn't downtalk the Dodgers because they've been great to me." Los Angeles Times, Oct 21, 1990, p. 9 (Proquest) "Just giving my respect," White explained. "I'm not really gonna downtalk (UCLA). They are a good team, but we were better today." rec.music.synth, Mar 31, 1992 (Usenet) I wonder if these folks down-talking the plastic case and mushy keys of the K2000 have actually seen one. rec.boats.paddle, May 3, 1993 (Usenet) I don't know if it was just downtalking the competition or what. USA Today, Sep 9, 1993, p. 10C (Nexis) "I think he ought to keep his comments to himself," Givins said. "I see where he's down-talking the offense. I mean, you're not supposed to do that, because we're in the boat together. The boat has to float with everybody working, not just one side." Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), Oct 21, 1995, p. 1GD (Nexis) "I don't ever down-talk a team," King said, "but if we go out and play this week like were capable of doing, we have a chance to get back on track. The main thing is to get our confidence back." Courier Mail (Queensland, Australia), Apr 27, 1996, p. 21 (Nexis) No one, it seems, wants to downtalk the cattle industry -- or any other industry, for that matter. Houston Chronicle, June 23, 1996, SPORTS 2; p. 17 (Nexis) "I think there are going to be critics my entire career," Iverson said. "There's always going to be somebody who downtalks to me." Denver Post, Aug 27, 1997, p. D1 (Nexis) "Neil's an all-pro. Trezelle's learning the position, learning how to play in the NFL. So it wouldn't be fair to Trezelle. Not trying to down-talk him or anything, but he's still adjusting. I don't think he's ready for that." Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (WI), Aug 13, 1999, Sports p. 7 (Nexis) "They're not having the greatest time. But Wisconsin's been great recruiting out of D.C Everest. I'm not going to down-talk the program because two guys had trouble there." New Zealand Business, Sep 2000, p. 10 (Nexis) Most New Zealanders have now been totally turned-off by the sad-dog whine of businessmen down-talking the economy and green-grassing Australia. NZ Infotech Weekly (Wellington), Oct 24, 2000, p. 9 (Nexis) "There is always a risk that if enough people down-talk something, it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy." Electronic News, Feb 11, 2002, p. 8 (Nexis) This was happening while investors were stacking up their chips on the new B2B ventures that were down-talking traditional distributors as "dinosaurs." Columbus Dispatch (OH), May 12, 2002, p. 3D (Nexis) "I think me and Brandon are a little more agile," said Joe, a third-year sophomore-to-be from Westerville South. "We kind of get out of the backfield a little faster than Jamar. And we both have extremely good hands. That's not saying Jamar didn't have good hands, but ... hey, it's hard to downtalk Jamar." Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, May 6, 2003, p. 1 (Proquest) "I don't want to down talk companies," Millar said. "They have a tough enough time in the world market today and a slim profit margin." Paperboard Packaging, Apr 2004, p. 39 (Proquest) "Not to downtalk packaging printers, but they're rather down and dirty guys." Vanity Fair, Dec 2004, p. 370 (Nexis) "No, not necessarily, but because we share parenthood, we have this mutual respect for each other where we don't downtalk each other to Hailie to confuse her." ------------ --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jan 6 15:50:04 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:50:04 -0500 Subject: Lansing State Journal claims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Herb, Local speakers and the media almost always agree that local speech is dying out. That's because 1) it isn't the same as it used to be (therfore, on the way out) and 2) they don't study it (as the MSU sociolinguistics team does, which is happy to announce Yooper live and well). Of course ADS didn't start WOTY as a copycat version of the Banished Words nonsense, although, as I recall early discussions, some of the impetus for WOTY may indeed have comne from a desire to counter prescriptivist bullshit in general and such lists in particular. Of course the Lansing State Journal, although they have consulted with us from time to time, is like every other media outlet. If the question is about chemistry, call a chemist; geology, call a geologist; language, call any dumass. This especially pisses me off since one of my hobbyhorses, as is well known, is folk linguistics, in which we try to take the comments about language by real people (i.e., nonlinguists) seriously, as reflections of the ethnographic record (and lots of other things we have wirtten about too often to list here [e.g., Niedzielski and Preston, Folk Linguistics, Mouton de Gruyter, 2000]). Linguistics in general is clearly the biggest Rodney Dangerfield of the sciences. dInIs Stahlke, Herbert F.W. writes: > The Lansing State Journal announced on 12/23 that UP English, > "Yooper-speak", is dying out. > > > > http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041223/O > PINION01/412230329&SearchID=73195139373021 > > > > The January 1 edition also claims that the 30-year-old Lake Superior > State University "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for > Mis-Use, Over-Use, and General Uselessness" was imitated by the ADS > "Words of the Year". How long has the ADS been doing this, and did the > idea come from the LSSU list, as the LSJ claims? > > > > Herb > > > > > From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Jan 6 15:56:21 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:56:21 -0600 Subject: Texas Twang in the Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Today's Chicago Tribune (section 1, page 1!) has an article about work by Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery on Texas English ("TXE"). Part of the article discusses the Texan use of "y'all" used in the singular. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 17:19:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:19:24 -0500 Subject: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) Message-ID: OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and 1939... Los Angeles Times, May 23, 1938, p. III4/5 FRIED RICE (Nasi Goreng) As its Malay name implies, this consists basically of rice fried until it is brown. There is no uniform recipe by which other ingredients are determined; individual taste and chance as to ingredients available are determining factors, with the result that the dish is never the same in any two households. Usually small cubes of meat, fish or chicken are fried with the rice. Sliced onions and cocoanut may be included. Spices used include paprika and "sambal ulik" (very hot red pepper). Los Angeles Times, Sep 4, 1939, p. II2/8 At the Dutch East Indies restaurant I found a 21-course feast called Rijstaffel. "What," I inquired of the beturbaned brown man who brought the 16th offering, "is this tasty dish?" "Nasi goreng." "Thank you," I said, "and tell me, do you Javanese fear a Japanese invasion?" "Nasi goreng." Los Angeles Times, Sep 24, 1939, p. I11/2 A great many Javanese dishes would not be practical for home cooking, because so many spices are needed and must be so skilfully comibned. But one of the chef's special dishes is entirely practical and very, very good. He calls it fried rice nasi Goreng, and he has given us the following recipe. --Ben Zimmer From pds at VISI.COM Thu Jan 6 17:21:00 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:21:00 -0600 Subject: Bundt Pan Message-ID: One for Barry, et al. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5171410.html Bundt pan inventor H. David Dalquist dies Trudi Hahn, Star Tribune January 6, 2005 DALQ0106 H. David Dalquist, whose fledgling Scandinavian cookware company developed its most famous product, the Nordic Ware Bundt pan, with Jewish immigrant cooks, died Sunday of heart failure at his home in Edina. He was 86. About 1950, immigrant Jewish women asked if the company could make a specialty pan that could be found only in Europe. The women tried to explain the pan, used to make a pudding called kugel, by using a word that sounded like "bunt" and meant "a gathering of people," David Dalquist said. And the fluted, cast-aluminum design -- trademarked as a Bundt pan -- was born. When the pan was used in a winning entry in the 1966 Pillsbury Bake-Off, orders soared. In 1970, the Bundt name was licensed to Pillsbury for a line of cake mixes that fit the pan. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 6 17:40:47 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:40:47 -0500 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) Message-ID: VLOGGERS--1,760 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits? VLOGGING--8,720 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits ... I didn't see vlogger/vlogging on Double Tongued Word Wrester or our archives. If "blog" beats "tsunami" for word-of-the-year (even though it should have won in 2003), this is an interesting add-on. ... It sounds like a blog about Vlad the Impaler, or some German form of "flogging." ... ... NY METRO (free newspaper) MEDIA BEAT by David Tereshchuk 6 January 2004 pg. 10, col. 2 _"Vlogging" the tsunami_ (...) Infact, news divisions and cable channels have been scurrying after and taking images from "vloggers," the inevitable new coinage to describe Webloggers who incorporate video into their pages. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 17:42:51 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:42:51 -0500 Subject: nativize (1948) Message-ID: nativize = 'to adapt (a loan word) to the phonetic structure of the native language' (OED3 has 1970) 1948 _Language_ 24 (Oct-Dec) 340-1 Native Chiricahua words never begin with _l_ or _ž_; these phonemes occur only medially and in final position. When, however, Chiricahua borrowed the Spanish words _loco_ 'crazy' and _rico_ 'rich', which were nativized as _lô·gò_ and _žî·gò_ respectively, both _l_ and _ž_ acquired new positions of occurrence, so far confined to these words and their several derived forms. (In Harry Hoijer's article, "Linguistic and Cultural Change") --Ben Zimmer From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 6 19:09:16 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:09:16 -0500 Subject: geechee Message-ID: Two scraps, for whatever they are worth. A minor jazz musician, a trombonist, of the 1920s, was Julius "Geechee" Fields, said to have been born in about 1903 and educated in the Jenkins Orphanage in Charleston. I see that DARE has a citation for Geechee from 1923, and probably Geechee Fields first appearance on the pages of history won't predate that. His high point came when he made some records with Jelly Roll Morton, in the late 20s. I read somewhere in a book of conversations with old jazz musicians that the speaker recognized in the "Charleston" dance a variation of an old southern dance that he knew as "geechee dancing". This might be in Hear Me Talkin to Ya, but perhaps I saw it elsewhere. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Jan 6 19:17:49 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:17:49 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: My wife's version, which was sung by nearly all the girls in the locker room, so she says) was We must, we must increase the size of our bust the bigger the better the tighter the sweater the boys depend on us I about fell off my chair the first time she sang that to me. My wife is about the LAST person in the world to know and sing such a song. The second to last person is her sister, who was able to sing the song with vigor only a few months ago. They were in school over 20 years ago. So, I guess it's a pretty well know little ditty. If my wife and her sister know it, everyone must! Fritz >>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 01/05/05 11:16AM >>> On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from > the > sixties. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > I had never heard of this at all, till my wife mentioned it, one time. And, even after that, I had only the impression that it was just something that she and her girl friends had made up as they approached puberty back in the late '50's. But it turns out to be known by women from all over the country. Who'd a thunk it?! -Wilson Gray From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jan 6 19:24:19 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:24:19 -0600 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language Message-ID: I enjoyed the TV program about "talking American" yesterday and recognized the names of all the dialect consultants except for the newcomer to our field, Dennis Preston. :) The one discordant note was the comment by critic John Simon that descriptivists (i.e, people with any appreciation for slang) are, as best I remember, "the curse of their race." I've been researching the origin of slang for 25+ years and believe I have some insight into the subject that Mr. Simon does not. There's an interesting story behind "gung ho," for example, connected with a a WWII hero in the Pacific, Evans Carlson. There's likewise an interesting story behind "shyster" (I wrote two monographs about this topic). There's a wealth of very interesting information on Cockney rhyming slang. There's the subject of cant, etc. etc. etc. Most people who have seen my work regard it as praiseworthy. Sure, some errors appear here and there, which I then try to correct. But no one has yet seen fit to regard me as a curse of my race (or anything close to this) for engaging in such scholarly activity. Language may be regarded as a vast body of water, an ocean if you will, with rivers, streams, rivulets pouring into it. In English they include the contributions of numerous ethnic groups, sports, professions, etc. etc. etc. They all contribute to the richness of our language. The words and expressions of our language are intangible assets--facilitating and no doubt in many cases enabling--us to think and express ourselves. And they certainly include slang. There's a time and place for everything. Too much of anything is inappropriate. A tool may be used inappropriately, but that's not the fault of the tool.. Slang certainly *can* be used appropriately, even in seriously written, well-polished articles/newspaper editorials/etc. I've often noticed examples of this without bothering to jot down the information. Maybe I should start doing so now (others can join in) and sharing the information with ads-l. Meanwhile, if John Simon would like a sample of, say, my article on "gung ho," I'd be happy to provide him a complimentary copy. He need only ask me. If he'd like to engage in a dialogue, on the subject, I'm likewise very willing to oblige. Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian Research specialty: primarily Etymology of British/American slang Editor of monograph series _Studies in Slang_ (6 volumes thusfar; vol. 6 is co- edited with Barry Popik) University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 email: gcohen at umr.edu From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Jan 6 20:16:21 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:16:21 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: <200501051920231.SM01664@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hey Wilson & all, talkin about fascinating . . . did anybody watch the 3 hour TV document on PBS last night that focused on American English? PBS gives an English lesson By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times | January 5, 2005 In the linguistic travelogue ''Do You Speak American?" airing tonight at 8 on WGBH (Channel 2), Robert MacNeil investigates the modern adventures of our gloriously unruly tongue -- not merely what is said, but how it's said, both the words we use and the way we shape them. I thought it was a little long. . . and it did a pretty good job of explaining AAVE / regional dialect & Ebonics. I loved the effort made to explain once again what Labov, Baugh, Rickford and others are trying to teach the public and K12 educators which I totally agree with. I devote my area on linguistics toward that end! I also loved the way folklore - story tellers etc. were woven into the story - that was fantastic. FYI: see National Children's Folksong Repostiory http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html but I was majorly bummed out by the complete and total omission of 1) American Indian languages which contributed to the first words used - how could they have done that!!?? 2) Louisiana Creole and it's influence on everything 3) American Virgin Island Creole and it's existence as literature. Yes, the show was already 3 hours long . . . but they could have stolen minutes away from the hip hop, surfing dude, valley girl, snowboarding, roller blading and ya know like the rest of like the words,like, ya know, like, what i mean? like what about the netglishes, dude, ya know? spanglish, netglish, SABE - Standard American- British English OVE - Oral and Vernacular Englishes ICE - International Colloquial English which of course, must be invading everyone's language, like like like ya know dude? like i'm so sick of like . . . best, karen > > > > Sorry Wilson, > > > > Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic > > always brings up a lot of baggage. > > I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk > > for Linguists from all over the world > > interested in creole & dialect speakers. > > > > I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching > > elementary school. see: > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html > > > > best, > > karen > >Don't worry. All is forgiven.;-) I find the topic fascinating. In fact, >years ago, a friend of mine went so far as to suggest that none other >than the late great Raven McDavid would be interested in the change in >meaning of "geechee" in the course of its travels from, presumably, >South Carolina to Texas. However, I never had the nerve to contact the >great man about something that strikes me as rather trivial. To me, the >fact that the word survived transportation to Texas is more interesting >than the change in meaning that it underwent there. A lot of black >Texan families, including the family of your humble correspondent, have >their roots in South Carolina. Interestingly enough, "geechee" is a >common household term that I learned as a child, but I know "Gullah" >only as a literary term. FWIW, with reference to New Orleans and other >locations in Louisiana, "creole" is pronounced as approximately >"kree-awl" in my native version of BE. > >Justice Thomas is a whole 'nother story. But I'm more than willing to >let that sleeping dog lie. > >-Wilson > > > > >>> Some of the resources below may be of interest. > >>> > >>> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. > >>> (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words > >>> "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and > >>> I > >>> had > >>> grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. > >> > >> it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - > >> correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican > >> right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from > >> the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my > >> class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I > >> was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. > >> As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll > >> tell > >> everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every > >> word I say will be true." > >> > >> -Wilson Gray > >> > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on > >>> amix > >>> of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." > >>> > >>> African Languages > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html > >>> > >>> World Creoles > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html > >>> > >>> American Virgin Islands Creole > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html > >>> > >>> best, > >>> Karen Ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Jan 6 20:20:28 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:20:28 -0500 Subject: Obituary: David Shulman Message-ID: Obituary: David Shulman The Times of London January 06, 2005 David Shulman Literary detective who sniffed out the origins of many new words FROM 1879, when James Murray, the first editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, published his call for readers, the dictionary has had many eccentric contributors. These ranged from Dr Fitzedward Hall, the American recluse and Sanskrit expert, to William Chester Minor, the murderer and Broadmoor inmate, believed to be responsible for about 10,000 citations. The dictionary is still dependent on layman lexicographers for help in charting the unspooling vagaries of the English language, and one of its most dedicated such helpers was David Shulman. Shulman was a typical New York eccentric. Clad in an anorak and baseball cap and carrying a plastic bag stuffed with sheets of paper, he haunted the rare books room of the New York Public Library for half his life. A connoisseur of the colloquial, he would work his way through pulp novels, trade magazines and old copies of the Police Gazette, hunting for early uses, variant spellings or contrasting shades of meaning. A 300-page study of the earliest use of the term "hot dog " is in production, for which Shulman was a third responsible. Shulman's detective hobbies - he described himself as a "literary Sherlock Holmes" - were a matter of personal as much as professional pride. He once spent months ransacking old issues of Delicatessen, the defunct trade paper, to disprove the validity of a rare spelling of "pastrami" in Webster's. "I figure that patience will pay off in the long run," he once said, "and so far, it always has." He also claimed to have been responsible for the inclusion in the OED of the word "snowman", and to have found the earliest citation for "bagel". Shulman was born in the Bronx in 1912 and educated at City College. He then took work as a compiler of puzzles for the World Post and the New York Post, before - he said - working for the US Army as a cryptanalyst. In the 1950s he set up his own company to produce word puzzles, and in 1976 he published An Annotated Bibliography of Cryptography. Shulman was also an avid collector of American ephemera. He donated to the city library a vast collection of cryptographic material - including a prized 16th-century text on secret writing. In his eighties he passed over a mass of documents, ranging from a stack of 20,000 postcards to a ticket for the impeachment trial of the US President Andrew Johnson. He had no immediate family. His library survives him. David Shulman, etymologist, was born on November 12, 1912. He died on October 30, 2004, aged 91. <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 6 20:52:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:52:29 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I missed it, dammit! But thanks for the heads-up. I'll watch for the re-run. -Wilson On Jan 6, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround > Subject: Re: geechee > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Hey Wilson & all, > > talkin about fascinating . . . > > did anybody watch the 3 hour TV document on PBS last night that > focused on American English? > > PBS gives an English lesson > By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times | January 5, 2005 > > In the linguistic travelogue ''Do You Speak American?" airing tonight > at 8 > on WGBH (Channel 2), Robert MacNeil investigates the modern adventures > of > our gloriously unruly tongue -- not merely what is said, but how it's > said, > both the words we use and the way we shape them. > pbs_gives_an_english_lesson/> > > I thought it was a little long. . . and it did a pretty good job > of explaining AAVE / regional dialect & Ebonics. > I loved the effort made to explain once again what > Labov, Baugh, Rickford and others are trying to teach the public > and K12 educators which I totally agree with. > > I devote my area on linguistics toward that end! > I also loved the way folklore - story tellers etc. > were woven into the story - that was fantastic. > > FYI: see > National Children's Folksong Repostiory > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > but I was majorly bummed out by the > complete and total omission of > > 1) American Indian languages which contributed > to the first words used - how > could they have done that!!?? > > 2) Louisiana Creole and it's influence > on everything > > 3) American Virgin Island Creole and > it's existence as literature. > > Yes, the show was already 3 hours long . . . > > but they could have stolen minutes away > from the hip hop, surfing dude, valley girl, snowboarding, > roller blading and ya know like the rest of like the words,like, > ya know, like, what i mean? like what about the netglishes, > dude, ya know? > spanglish, netglish, > SABE - Standard American- British English > OVE - Oral and Vernacular Englishes > ICE - International Colloquial English > which of course, must be invading everyone's language, like like like > ya know dude? like i'm so sick of like . . . > > best, > karen > > > >>> >>> Sorry Wilson, >>> >>> Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic >>> always brings up a lot of baggage. >>> I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk >>> for Linguists from all over the world >>> interested in creole & dialect speakers. >>> >>> I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching >>> elementary school. see: >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html >>> >>> best, >>> karen >> >> Don't worry. All is forgiven.;-) I find the topic fascinating. In >> fact, >> years ago, a friend of mine went so far as to suggest that none other >> than the late great Raven McDavid would be interested in the change in >> meaning of "geechee" in the course of its travels from, presumably, >> South Carolina to Texas. However, I never had the nerve to contact the >> great man about something that strikes me as rather trivial. To me, >> the >> fact that the word survived transportation to Texas is more >> interesting >> than the change in meaning that it underwent there. A lot of black >> Texan families, including the family of your humble correspondent, >> have >> their roots in South Carolina. Interestingly enough, "geechee" is a >> common household term that I learned as a child, but I know "Gullah" >> only as a literary term. FWIW, with reference to New Orleans and >> other >> locations in Louisiana, "creole" is pronounced as approximately >> "kree-awl" in my native version of BE. >> >> Justice Thomas is a whole 'nother story. But I'm more than willing to >> let that sleeping dog lie. >> >> -Wilson >> >>> >>>>> Some of the resources below may be of interest. >>>>> >>>>> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. >>>>> (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words >>>>> "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, >>>>> and >>>>> I >>>>> had >>>>> grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. >>>> >>>> it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - >>>> correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican >>>> right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting >>>> from >>>> the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my >>>> class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." >>>> Additionally, I >>>> was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop >>>> here. >>>> As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll >>>> tell >>>> everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' >>>> every >>>> word I say will be true." >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree >>>>> on >>>>> amix >>>>> of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." >>>>> >>>>> African Languages >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html >>>>> >>>>> World Creoles >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html >>>>> >>>>> American Virgin Islands Creole >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> Karen Ellis > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > Guavaberry Books > > Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. > Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners > > National Children's Folksong Repository > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > The Educational CyberPlayGround > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ > > Hot List of Schools Online > Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html > > > 7 Hot Site Awards > New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, > USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jan 6 21:07:47 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:07:47 -0500 Subject: help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please, please, please - must we repost over and over again long messages that have already been posted here - by appending them to often brief fresh messages? I do not understand why some of us do that. Am I missing something? Thanks, Bethany From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 21:11:35 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: geechee Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:09:16 -0500, George Thompson wrote: >A minor jazz musician, a trombonist, of the 1920s, was Julius "Geechee" >Fields, said to have been born in about 1903 and educated in the >Jenkins Orphanage in Charleston. I see that DARE has a citation for >Geechee from 1923, and probably Geechee Fields first appearance on the >pages of history won't predate that. His high point came when he made >some records with Jelly Roll Morton, in the late 20s. HDAS has a 1905 cite for "geechee" (quoted in _Strange Ways and Sweet Dreams_ by Donald J. Waters). I'm not sure if that's taken from this reference, discussed in a 1906 _Journal of American Folklore_ review: Monroe N. Work, "Some Geechee Folklore," _Southern Workman_ 34 (Nov-Dec 1905): 633-34, 696-97. Bibliographic information from: Linda O. McMurry, "A Black Intellectual in the New South: Monroe Nathan Work, 1866-1945," _Phylon_ 41 (4th Qtr. 1980), p. 343. --Ben Zimmer From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Jan 6 21:52:33 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:52:33 -0000 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) In-Reply-To: <67C3B107.2110871C.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > VLOGGERS--1,760 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits? > VLOGGING--8,720 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits > ... > I didn't see vlogger/vlogging on Double Tongued Word Wrester or our > archives. It is here: http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-vlo1.htm in a piece dating from September. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 6 22:09:14 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:09:14 -0500 Subject: Texas Twang in the Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$4nbbun@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: I found the article on the Tribune's Web site. Very interesting! I'll buy the book, when it becomes available. Needless to say, I still haven't heard "y'all" used as a singular, but I'm willing to grant that that may be an age-related factor. Or it may be geographically constrained, given that none of the locations cited in the article is in East Texas. FWIW, I once worked for twelve years with a white colleague from Lubbock. He didn't speak with a Southern drawl. Rather, he sounded like a cowboy in a 'Forties horse opera. On the other hand, I've met Northerners who don't even know the meaning of the word "drawl," even though, in one case, the person, a Vermonter, had a step-family from North Carolina whose members spoke with a very noticeable drawl. So who knows what struck the reporter as being a drawl? -Wilson Gray On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:56 AM, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Texas Twang in the Chicago Tribune > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Today's Chicago Tribune (section 1, page 1!) has an article about > work by Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery on Texas English ("TXE"). Part of > the article discusses the Texan use of "y'all" used in the singular. > > Barbara Need > UChicago--Linguistics > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 22:52:38 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:52:38 -0500 Subject: Nasser-ism/ist/ite Message-ID: * Nasserism (OED3 1958) 1956 _Washington Post_ 22 July E7/3 Laqueur asks, "Can the West Live with Nasserism?," and argues that failure to understand Nasser and what he stans for prevents the shaping of a realistic policy for the Middle East. [citing article by Walter Z. Laqueur in _The New Leader_] 1956 _New York Times_ 19 Aug. E7/5 Nasserism achieved its most widespread support throughout the Arab world this week since its founder had seized control of the Suez Canal Company from Western hands. 1956 W.Z. LAQUEUR in _Midstream_ (Autumn), The Anatomy of Nasserism. [cited in _Am. Pol. Sci. Rev._ 51 (Mar. 1957), p. 270] * Nasserist, a. (OED3 1958) 1956 _Washington Post_ 4 Sep. 23/7 Throughout the Arab world, Nasserist fifth columns have feverishly been exploiting the psychological gains from the nationalization of the Suez Canal, in order to undermine governments and regimes recalcitrant to Nasser's leadership. * Nasserist, n. (OED3 Dec. 1958) 1958 _New York Times_ 5 Apr. 14/5 Now that Faisal is Saudi Arabia's real boss, Nasserists frame demands that he break ties with the United States and terminate our airbases at Dhahran. * Nasserite, a. (OED3 1958) 1957 _Washington Post_ 26 June A13/2 If Nasserite nationalism triumphs in the end, it will mean the destruction of all Western interests in Arab lands. * Nasserite, n. (OED3 1959) 1956 _Wall Street Journal_ 21 June 8/4 Its members would range from the leftist extremists in the British Labor party to the Nasserites of Egypt and the "neutralists" of India and Burma. [1957 _Odessa American_ (Texas) 28/6 Feb. (heading) Anti-Nasserite loses office.] [1957 _Zanesville Signal_ (Ohio) 26 Apr. 12/3 Meanwhile, and for months, leftists and pro-Nasserites had been infiltrating the army, the government and the schools.] --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 7 01:21:05 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:21:05 -0500 Subject: down-talk In-Reply-To: <25583.69.142.143.59.1105020986.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 09:16 AM 1/6/2005, you wrote: > "I don't have to down-talk Oklahoma," said Reggie Bush, USC's > sophomore general yard-gainer. "Everyone saw the way we played, > saw the way Oklahoma played. It's really pretty self-explanatory." > http://cnnsi.com/2005/writers/stewart_mandel/01/04/mandel.orange/ > >"Down-talk" is an apparent inversion of "talk down (to)" on the model of >"play down > downplay". (The sports usage may also be influenced by "talk >trash > trash-talk".) Nothing in OED, HDAS, MWCD, etc., though HDAS does >have "downmouth" (supposedly a blend of "downgrade" and "badmouth"). > >Here are some cites (beginning with "down-talking", ppl. a./vbl. n.): .... I think there are two different items here: (1) "talk down" (v.t.) = "disparage"/"derogate"/"bad-mouth"; (2) "talk down" (v.i., often with "to") = "speak in an inferior direction"/"speak in a condescending manner"/etc. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jan 7 01:30:30 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:30:30 -0500 Subject: Query: Please from Bitte in Ohio? Message-ID: I just got this query from a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer. Basically, he wants information about "please" being a calque for "bitte" in Ohio, a carryover, he says, from the German heritage of the area. It is used in place of "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon." The reporter's information is: Chuck Martin Cincinatti Enquirer cmartin at enquirer.com 513 768 8507 Thanks, Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 7 02:11:31 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:11:31 -0600 Subject: Slang use in serious writing, #1: "goose" Message-ID: The purpose of this collection is to counter the suggestion advanced recently that slang by its very nature contributes to the decline of language and more broadly a country's cultural level. Au contraire! Slang adds to the richness of language and often appears even in serious writing. Here's the first example, which I've selected at random: Slang "goose" in: Wall Street Journal, Feb. 3, 1992, p.A10/4-6 Title of article: "GOOSE THE MONEY SUPPLY." --- The article--a sober discussion of monetary policy--is by Martin Feldstein, identified as former chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers and a professor of economics at Harvard. # # # From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 7 02:18:44 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:18:44 -0500 Subject: Query: Please from Bitte in Ohio? Message-ID: Is this what in DARE is described as an interrogative exclamation... Chifly N Central, esp OH. No ety is given. However, consult Prof. John R. Costello (NYU) about its "calkedness." Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION Lexik at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Thursday, January 06, 2005 at 8:30 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Query: Please from Bitte in Ohio? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I just got this query from a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer. >Basically, he wants information about "please" being a calque for >"bitte" in Ohio, a carryover, he says, from the German heritage of the >area. It is used in place of "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon." > >The reporter's information is: > >Chuck Martin >Cincinatti Enquirer >cmartin at enquirer.com >513 768 8507 > >Thanks, > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 03:43:15 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:43:15 EST Subject: "When she was bad" (1871) Message-ID: BAD SHE WAS HORRID--818 Google hits, 1,560 Google Groups hits ... I originally posted on this several years ago, perhaps in the old archives. This poem was thought to have been written by Longfellow, but there's never a good date attached. It's not attributed to anyone here. Note the extra verses!...Don't know if Fred has it. ... ... ... The Ohio Democrat (New Philadelphia, Ohio) 22 September 1871 pg. 1, col. 4: ... _That Little Girl._ ... ... There was a little girl And she had a little curl, Right in the middle of her forehead, When she was good, She was very, very good, And when she was bad she was horrid. ... She went up-stairs, And he parents unawares, Was a-looking out of the window; She stood on her head, In her little trundle-bed, And nobody near to hinder. ... Her mother heard the noise, And she thought it was the boys, A playing in the empty attic; But she ran up-stairs, And caught her unawares, And spanked her most emphatic. ... ... _http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1345.html_ (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1345.html) ... Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882) There was a little girl _1_ (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1345.html#1) There was a little girl, 2 Who had a little curl, 3 Right in the middle of her forehead. 4 When she was good, 5 She was very good indeed, 6But when she was bad she was horrid. Notes 1] Longfellow's second son Ernest says of this poem: "It was while walking up and down with his second daughter, then a baby in his arms, that my father composed and sang to her the well-known lines .... Many people think this a Mother-Goose rhyme, but this is the true version and history" (15-16). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 04:00:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:00:44 EST Subject: Bundt Pan Message-ID: Yes, I saw this, too. See the ADS-L archives for "bundt." There is a "bundt kuchen" entry in the famous SETTLEMENT COOKBOOK (1903), so the word "bundt" had been familiar for some time before this "bundt pan" guy. ... ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark BUNDT Goods and Services IC 021. US 013. G & S: CAKE PANS. FIRST USE: 19510000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19510000 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 72241796 Filing Date March 24, 1966 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0826340 Registration Date March 28, 1967 Owner (REGISTRANT) NORTHLAND ALUMINUM PRODUCTS, INC. CORPORATION MINNESOTA 3245 RALEIGH AVE. MINNEAPOLIS MINNESOTA 55416 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19870328 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From pds at VISI.COM Fri Jan 7 06:38:26 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:38:26 -0600 Subject: Bundt Pan In-Reply-To: <20050107040047.A0E554C20@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 1/6/2005 11:00 PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Yes, I saw this, too. See the ADS-L archives for "bundt." There is a "bundt >kuchen" entry in the famous SETTLEMENT COOKBOOK (1903), so the word "bundt" >had been familiar for some time before this "bundt pan" guy. I should have mentioned the several "bundt cake" posts (some by Barry) in the archives. The Dahlquist obit left me wondering what "European" or "Jewish" terms "sound like" 'bunt'. The German "Bund" (bundle, band, alliance) seems likely. However, a "band" pan is a very different device, in my experience, from the Nordic Ware bundt pan. When I think band pan (don't know what cooks actually call it), I think of a pan for cheese cake whose side can be expanded for easy removal. And since "bundt" antedates the pan by decades, and since the cakes described in the archives would not benefit from either a band pan or a Nordic Ware pan, perhaps it comes from some other source. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 7 12:27:55 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:27:55 -0500 Subject: "When she was bad" (1871) In-Reply-To: <155.4784a319.2f0f5f53@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > BAD SHE WAS HORRID--818 Google hits, 1,560 Google Groups hits > ... > I originally posted on this several years ago, perhaps in the old archives. > This poem was thought to have been written by Longfellow, but there's never a > good date attached. It's not attributed to anyone here. Note the extra > verses!...Don't know if Fred has it. This is an uncommonly interesting quotation, attributed to a major literary author but origins shrouded in mystery. In 1946 an article in the Papers of the Bibliographical Society of America traced it to a pre-1870 broadside entitled "Wrong Side Up. A Poem.", which may have been British. Other earliest known versions were in the Reveille, Salem, Mass., 21 Dec. 1870, and Balloon Post, Boston, 11 Apr. 1871. Longfellow is said to have composed a version of the poem and sung it to his young daughter in the 1850s, but there is no contemporaneous documentation of that. I would welcome any further discoveries by Barry or others. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 7 14:49:31 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:49:31 -0600 Subject: PBS Program: Do You Speak American? Message-ID: Any chance anyone out there video taped this program on PBS when it aired January 5? I got the last 2 hours, but missed the first one on the Northeast and Black English. I planned to use it for my upcoming American Dialects college course and our PBS isn't rebroadcasting it any time soon. It was rebroadcast at 1 AM this morning, but our PBS was off the air by then (small town stations!) I checked ordering info for PBS' tapes and they're all backordered by about 1 month. If anyone did tape this, I'd be happy to pay for postage and a VHS cassette if you'd send me a copy of hour 1. Please e mail me off list if you can help. Thanks! Patti Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Patti -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 7 15:58:44 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:58:44 -0800 Subject: PBS Program: Do You Speak American? In-Reply-To: <41DEA17B.3060704@netscape.net> Message-ID: A VHS copy is also available for sale from http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1920128. DVD is also available. Of course, it costs more than the home-taped version. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Patti J. Kurtz > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 6:50 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: PBS Program: Do You Speak American? > > > Any chance anyone out there video taped this program on PBS when it > aired January 5? I got the last 2 hours, but missed the first one on > the Northeast and Black English. I planned to use it for my upcoming > American Dialects college course and our PBS isn't rebroadcasting it any > time soon. It was rebroadcast at 1 AM this morning, but our PBS was off > the air by then (small town stations!) I checked ordering info for PBS' > tapes and they're all backordered by about 1 month. > > If anyone did tape this, I'd be happy to pay for postage and a VHS > cassette if you'd send me a copy of hour 1. > > Please e mail me off list if you can help. > > Thanks! > > Patti Kurtz > Assistant Professor, English > Minot State University > Minot, ND 58707 From al_milan1 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 7 16:10:47 2005 From: al_milan1 at YAHOO.COM (lanang lanang) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:10:47 -0800 Subject: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) Message-ID: I am Indonesian, to be more specific I am Javanese. What Mr. ZImmer wrote is correct about nasi goreng: there's no standard way of making nasi goreng and what ingredients are used. However, there are certain exact similarities among those differences: you must grind all ingredients (spices), like cabai, salt, onion, garlic, before you star frying the rice, and the result of grinding here is "sambel ulek" (not sambel ulik") :). And most people will use soy sauce (kecap) and egg. Most chinese restaurants in Indonesia consider nasi goreng as their main food to sell. Besides all the ingredients I mentioned earlier, the chinese in Indonesia will put (optionally) shrimp, sausage, meat balls (we call it here bakso), squid, ham, lamb, even petai or pete (small look-like-nut vegetable and can cause smell in your mouth and urine after consuming it; this is loved by many lower middle people[and some upper middle, but they wouldn't admit it :p ]). hopefully this info will benefit our understanding about fried rice... A. Lanang Benjamin Zimmer wrote: OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and 1939... Los Angeles Times, May 23, 1938, p. III4/5 FRIED RICE (Nasi Goreng) As its Malay name implies, this consists basically of rice fried until it is brown. There is no uniform recipe by which other ingredients are determined; individual taste and chance as to ingredients available are determining factors, with the result that the dish is never the same in any two households. Usually small cubes of meat, fish or chicken are fried with the rice. Sliced onions and cocoanut may be included. Spices used include paprika and "sambal ulik" (very hot red pepper). Los Angeles Times, Sep 4, 1939, p. II2/8 At the Dutch East Indies restaurant I found a 21-course feast called Rijstaffel. "What," I inquired of the beturbaned brown man who brought the 16th offering, "is this tasty dish?" "Nasi goreng." "Thank you," I said, "and tell me, do you Javanese fear a Japanese invasion?" "Nasi goreng." Los Angeles Times, Sep 24, 1939, p. I11/2 A great many Javanese dishes would not be practical for home cooking, because so many spices are needed and must be so skilfully comibned. But one of the chef's special dishes is entirely practical and very, very good. He calls it fried rice nasi Goreng, and he has given us the following recipe. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 7 18:09:35 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:09:35 -0500 Subject: help! In-Reply-To: <20050107050207.27585B26B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Bethany writes: >>>>> Please, please, please - must we repost over and over again long messages that have already been posted here - by appending them to often brief fresh messages? <<<<< Seconded, bravo, and amen! -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 7 18:19:16 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:19:16 -0500 Subject: help! Message-ID: My only reservation is that I find it helpful when I'm jumping into a thread with little background on what's been said over the previous weeks--often with long intervals between postings. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Friday, January 07, 2005 at 1:09 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: help! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Bethany writes: > >>>>> >Please, please, please - must we repost over and over again long messages >that have already been posted here - by appending them to often brief >fresh messages? > <<<<< > >Seconded, bravo, and amen! > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 7 18:36:29 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:36:29 -0500 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) In-Reply-To: <20050107050207.27585B26B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael Quinion refers us to his September article on this word at http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-vlo1.htm That article also contains the following paragraph: >>>>> An extension of blogging is to collect, display and store all types of digital information about one's life in a single place for one's family and friends to access. Such a collection has been called a lifelog, though trendwatching.com recently dubbed it life caching. One pundit sourly remarked that it was an excellent way of proving to everyone how boring one's life really is. <<<<< Such a hobby, or obsession, was predicted/described by Sir Arthur C. Clarke in his SF novel _Imperial Earth_, set about 300 or 400 years in the future if memory serves. Its practitioners wear miniaturized apparatus that automatically makes a video log of everything they do. I think they were called "tapeworms" (surely an anachronistic label!). -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 7 18:46:38 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:46:38 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050107050207.27585B26B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I mentioned this to my wife last night. She turned to me with an astonished look and asked disapprovingly, "Who did YOU ever learn that from?!" Anyway... the version she knew was: I must I must I must develop a bust. I better I better So I can wear a sweater. This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 19:08:21 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:08:21 EST Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1957-59) Message-ID: I remember this from the late 1950s (1957-59). My ex-wife and her girlfriend Nadine used to say it while exercising--but only "We must, we must, we must increase my bust." In a message dated 1/7/05 10:46:59 AM, mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU writes: > I mentioned this to my wife last night. She turned to me with an astonished > look and asked disapprovingly, "Who did YOU ever learn that from?!" > > Anyway... the version she knew was: > > I must > I must > I must develop a bust. > I better > I better > So I can wear a sweater. > > This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine > exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 19:29:03 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:29:03 EST Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages Message-ID: Yes. I don't quite see the problem with repeating the messages, as long as the new comments are at the TOP and I don't have to scroll to the bottom to find out what the new comment is. In a message dated 1/7/05 10:19:44 AM, barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM writes: > My only reservation is that I find it helpful when I'm jumping into a > thread with little background on what's been said over the previous > weeks--often with long intervals between postings. > > Regards, > David > > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 7 19:30:21 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:30:21 -0500 Subject: Brooklyn Eagle Online Message-ID: Folks: I recently received the following message from a librarian at the Brooklyn Public: "Hi, George. When we last worked together at the Reference Desk, you had very some nice things to say about Brooklyn Public Library's Eagle online. As you know, this online resource only spans (roughly) the nineteenth- century. BPL is currently applying for a grant to fund the cost of digitizing the remainder of the Eagle's run, through the mid-twentieth century. "In light of the enthusiasm you expressed, would you be willing to write a short letter of support for this project? The project manager thinks one or two such testimonials could enhance our prospects for obtaining funding. Thanks very much for whatever help you might be able to give." He forwards to me the following letter from the person at the BPL in charge of this project: "As you know we are in the process of putting together a grant proposal seeking funding to digitize 1903-23 issues of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. If the project budget is approved by the library administration, we will submit the grant proposal before February 1st. The announcement of grant recipients is mid-September 2005. If your contact at NYU is willing to write a letter of support on letterhead that would be very helpful. The letter should include a statement as to why this time period (1903-23) would be of great interest to NYU library patrons. "The letter should be sent to me [Susan Benz] (my address below) but addressed to: Ms. Martha Crawley Program Officer Institute of Museum and Library Services 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20506 Susan Benz Manager of Digital Library Services - EDO Brooklyn Public Library Grand Army Plaza Brooklyn, NY 11238 718.230.2750 s.benz at brooklynpubliclibrary.org So: Those of you who have used this resource should write a letter addressed to Crawley but mailed to Benz at the BPL. The deadline it seems would be Friday January 21 or early the following week, to allow the BPL to meet their deadline of Tuesday February 1. If this stage of the project is funded, it will still leave the last 30 years or so of the paper to be digitized. The Eagle went out of business in I think 1954. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 7 20:10:38 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:10:38 -0500 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron's suggestion seems to be a reasonable compromise to me. For reasons known only to the gremlins of e-mail, I don't always receive the initial post and it's nice to be able to scroll down to see what the original question was. -Wilson Gray On Jan 7, 2005, at 2:29 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes. I don't quite see the problem with repeating the messages, as > long as > the new comments are at the TOP and I don't have to scroll to the > bottom to find > out what the new comment is. > > In a message dated 1/7/05 10:19:44 AM, barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM writes: > > >> My only reservation is that I find it helpful when I'm jumping into a >> thread with little background on what's been said over the previous >> weeks--often with long intervals between postings. >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 7 20:38:59 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:38:59 -0500 Subject: reposting Message-ID: I guess we just have dfferent mindsets about receiving the same long post 3-4 or more times. It drives me crazy. For one thing, I occasionally want to file a bit of information - but not if it is contained in a lengthy post containing re-posted text that I do not want to file - at least not again! Or perhaps many of you have such huge mail quotas that you never think about volume. Is that it? Surely we can do brief summarizing when we are returning to old topics. In fact, I think that makes our perspectives clearer. Bethany From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jan 7 21:10:58 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:10:58 -0500 Subject: reposting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, January 7, 2005 3:38 PM -0500 "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > I guess we just have dfferent mindsets about receiving the same long > post 3-4 or more times. It drives me crazy. For one thing, I occasionally > want to file a bit of information - but not if it is contained in a > lengthy post containing re-posted text that I do not want to file - at > least not again! > > Or perhaps many of you have such huge mail quotas that you never think > about volume. Is that it? > > Surely we can do brief summarizing when we are returning to old topics. In > fact, I think that makes our perspectives clearer. I'm with you. I find it very difficult to follow massively top-posted discussions, and tend to just delete messages without reading them. And I still read email at home via dialup, and so would prefer not to get a lot of lengthy messages with no new content to them. -- Alice Faber Haskins Labs, 270 Crown St, New Haven, CT, 06511 T: (203) 865-6163 x258 F: (203) 865-8963 faber at haskins.yale.edu From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 7 21:19:01 2005 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:19:01 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050107134144.R18506@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: We -- San Francisco Bay area c. 1965+ -- used "the chant" while doing arm fling exercises. On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:46:38 -0500, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > I mentioned this to my wife last night. She turned to me with an astonished > look and asked disapprovingly, "Who did YOU ever learn that from?!" > > Anyway... the version she knew was: > > I must > I must > I must develop a bust. > I better > I better > So I can wear a sweater. > > This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine > exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Jan 8 03:05:08 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:05:08 -0500 Subject: Amer. Dialect Soc. Word of the Year Announced Message-ID: The American Dialect Society has just finished its vote for the 2004 Words of the Year. The overall Words of the Year were "red state, blue state, and purple state," which together represent the American political map. For winners in other categories, other nominated words, vote tallies, and contact information, see our press release: http://www.americandialect.org/2004_WOTY_Final_Vote_.pdf Grant Barrett Vice President of Technology and Communication (Provisional) American Dialect Society gbarrett at worldnewyork.org' http://www.americandialect.org/ From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Jan 8 03:08:24 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:08:24 -0600 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: My wife (Catholic HS Decatur, Ill, 1965) remembered only "We must, we must, we must increase our bust" with no following lines, but as accompaniment to an isometric exercise of pressing the hands against eachother at bust level. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" Anyway... the version she knew was: I must I must I must develop a bust. I better I better So I can wear a sweater. This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 04:48:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:48:46 -0500 Subject: Amer. Dialect Soc. Word of the Year Announced Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:05:08 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >The American Dialect Society has just finished its vote for the 2004 >Words of the Year. The overall Words of the Year were "red state, blue >state, and purple state," which together represent the American >political map. Interesting choice! "Purple state" is of course the one that's new to 2004. Some thoughts on the origins of "red state"/"blue state"... When Bill Safire discussed "red" and "blue" states in his Oct. 3, 2004 "On Language" column, he wrote: "Perhaps because color television was not universal until a generation ago, electoral maps were not consistent until the campaign of the first President Bush against Bill Clinton." Though the usage of "red state" and "blue state" was first popularized in 1992, the blue/red color-coding on electoral maps has been used at least since 1908. In July of that year, the Washington Post printed a color supplement with a map indicating Republican-leaning states as red and Democratic-leaning states as blue. Here is the Post's announcement: WILL PRINT POLITICAL MAP The Post to Issue a Folder Supplement Next Sunday. Democratic, Republican, and Doubtful States, as Now Estimated, to Be Designated by Different Colors. Washington Post, Jul 22, 1908 The States conceded by the best judges to be Republican are printed in red, the Democratic in blue, and the doubtfuls in yellow. The Territories, which have no presidential vote, are shown in green. It's conceivable that the Post's electoral map helped to firm up the association of Republicans with "red" and Democrats with "blue". Before that time, there was evidently some confusion over color-coding the parties. For the 1900 general election, the Chicago Tribune, then a Republican organ, made plans to signal returns on election night by setting off colored fireworks (or "bombs", as they were called) that would be visible around the city. Republican wins would be signaled by blue bombs and Democratic wins by red bombs. But in the Nov. 6, 1900 edition, the Tribune published an item saying that they were abandoning these plans. An unnamed Democratic newspaper (most likely the Chicago Times, the Tribune's Democratic rival) had announced it would signal Republican wins with red bombs and Democratic returns with blue bombs. The Tribune decided to drop the plan entirely for color-coded fireworks to avoid confusing Chicagoans. In this case it seems that each party organ wanted to claim to be "blue" and paint the other party as "red". I would conjecture that the Tribune was following contemporary European usage ("blue" = right-leaning, "red" = left-leaning). But the paper's Democratic rivals wanted to appropriate the positive connotations of "blue" (as in "true-blue") for the Democrats, at a time when the color red was becoming associated with revolutionaries and anarchists. By embracing the color blue, Democrats may have been able to distance themselves from the "reds" of the day. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 8 05:00:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:00:41 EST Subject: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life" (1968); WOTY Message-ID: WOTY: I'm a bit disappointed. "Red/Blue State" is basically four years old and was popularized in 2000. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ... The Los Angeles Times digitization is still stuck on December 31, 1968. ... I'll go into the new year with an improved "today is the first day of the rest of your life," asked by Fred Shapiro. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _1,500 Mark Synanon's 10th Anniversary_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513451132&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN P&TS=1105159166&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 13, 1968. p. G2 (1 page): ... A musical program was scheduled to open a five-night run at 8:30 p.m. Its title: "Today Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Reno Evening Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vDnP9fyY5urBxX8UAWEcscD0gelMGSNu0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, October 16, 1968 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Nevada_ ( http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+today+is+the+first+ day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) ...residents entitled "TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE" IS being.....OF racISm on THE face OF THE earth.' TODAY he was transferred to a new job.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2p0JwF3XqwDE6iFFOhju8VhZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, August 01, 1968 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+you r+life+AND) ...a special way, for TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Celebrate.....Exces-j instrument flight in vISual TODAY IS a very special DAY for you. It.. Pg. 10, col. 1: We'll bet you never thought of it this way, but... Today is a very special day for you. It is full of a special significance that you should be aware of by treating today in a special way, for... Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Celebrate it by making some special someone happier because of you...and because of today. JOHN P. TIMMERMAN HEATING--COOLING--FURNACE CLEANING ... ... ... ... (ADS-L ARCHIVES) In a message dated 2/27/2004 4:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." > > Sam (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 4/2/1969 ...miles an hour. Remember toDAY is THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. See you next.....Carthagena, Ohio, on FriDAY, celebrated his FIRST solemn high mass in THE Church OF THE.....A 77-degree reading made SunDAY THE warmest DAY so far this year. On THE same date in.....Winter will be "But Have Everlasting LIFE" from THE series "THE Eternal Gospel.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 02, 1969 671 k Gettysburg Times - 3/5/1969 ...To Our Patrons GOOD EVENING Enjoy THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Voi; 67, No. 54.....has never before harbored LIFE. It's THE FIRST time that man could photograph and.....1800, when Robert Harper, founder OF THE FIRST newspaper in Adams County, put it on.....AP Aerospace Writer SPACE (AP) In THE FIRST spaceship transfer by Americans, James.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 05, 1969 783 k BOX IN UPPER RIGHT CORNER, FIRST PAGE: GOOD EVENING Enjoy today--it's the first day of the rest of your life. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 8 05:14:38 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:14:38 EST Subject: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life" (1968); WOTY Message-ID: (I sent this at exactly midnight and it still doesn't show up. I'll re-post it, and you'll immediately got it twice, as usual--B.P.) ... WOTY: I'm a bit disappointed. "Red/Blue State" is basically four years old and was popularized in 2000. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ... The Los Angeles Times digitization is still stuck on December 31, 1968. ... I'll go into the new year with an improved "today is the first day of the rest of your life," asked by Fred Shapiro. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _1,500 Mark Synanon's 10th Anniversary_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513451132&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN P&TS=1105159166&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 13, 1968. p. G2 (1 page): ... A musical program was scheduled to open a five-night run at 8:30 p.m. Its title: "Today Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Reno Evening Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vDnP9fyY5urBxX8UAWEcscD0gelMGSNu0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, October 16, 1968 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+today+is+the+first+ day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) ...residents entitled "TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE" IS being.....OF racISm on THE face OF THE earth.' TODAY he was transferred to a new job.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2p0JwF3XqwDE6iFFOhju8VhZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, August 01, 1968 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+you r+life+AND) ...a special way, for TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Celebrate.....Exces-j instrument flight in vISual TODAY IS a very special DAY for you. It.. Pg. 10, col. 1: We'll bet you never thought of it this way, but... Today is a very special day for you. It is full of a special significance that you should be aware of by treating today in a special way, for... Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Celebrate it by making some special someone happier because of you...and because of today. JOHN P. TIMMERMAN HEATING--COOLING--FURNACE CLEANING ... ... ... ... (ADS-L ARCHIVES) In a message dated 2/27/2004 4:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." > > Sam (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 4/2/1969 ...miles an hour. Remember toDAY is THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. See you next.....Carthagena, Ohio, on FriDAY, celebrated his FIRST solemn high mass in THE Church OF THE.....A 77-degree reading made SunDAY THE warmest DAY so far this year. On THE same date in.....Winter will be "But Have Everlasting LIFE" from THE series "THE Eternal Gospel.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 02, 1969 671 k Gettysburg Times - 3/5/1969 ...To Our Patrons GOOD EVENING Enjoy THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Voi; 67, No. 54.....has never before harbored LIFE. It's THE FIRST time that man could photograph and.....1800, when Robert Harper, founder OF THE FIRST newspaper in Adams County, put it on.....AP Aerospace Writer SPACE (AP) In THE FIRST spaceship transfer by Americans, James.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 05, 1969 783 k BOX IN UPPER RIGHT CORNER, FIRST PAGE: GOOD EVENING Enjoy today--it's the first day of the rest of your life. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 06:52:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:52:47 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) Message-ID: A usage no doubt repulsive to the John Simons and Robert Fiskes of this world is the equating of "nauseous" with "nauseated" (rather than the earlier sense of "nauseating"). The OED3 draft entry dates this sense of "nauseous" to 1949, but surely we can do better... -------- 1885 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 14 Apr. 2/5 I saw the long and white helmeted troops march in apparent comfort on their way, while I swayed to and fro and was bumped up and down and oscillated and see-sawed from side to side until I became nauseous and had exhausted my profane Arabic vocabulary in the vain attempt to induce "Daddles" to consider my comfort more than his own. -------- 1903 _Coshocton Daily Age_ (Ohio) 16 Sep. 1/1 Her voyage through the spirit land made her somewhat nauseous and was not the most pleasant journey imaginable, but she is on the high road to recovery now. -------- 1906 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 7 July 7/3 (advt.) When you feel nauseous and dizzy, don't take brandy or whisky -- try Nerviline. -------- 1927 _Chicago Tribune_ 9 May 10/3 This lasts ten or fifteen minutes, and then I have a terrible headache and I feel nauseous. -------- 1933 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Sep. II6/1 (advt.) The salts that do not make you nauseous. -------- The 1885 cite is from an unnamed piece entitled, "In the Camps at Korti: Terrible March across the Heated Sands of the Soudan" ("Daddles" is the name of the writer's camel). So perhaps British (or Commonwealth) sources antedate American ones for this usage (despite the OED's "orig. U.S." tag). Here is the earliest cite I could find expressing concern over the proper use of "nauseous" (from Frank Colby's column, "Take My Word For It!"): -------- 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 8 Nov. II7/7 From a recent issue of Look: "Stefan became nauseous." Could that be right? ... Yes, if the author intended to say that Stefan was loathsome; so disgusting as to cause nausea. Obviously he meant to write: Stefan became nauseated. -------- --Ben Zimmer From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sat Jan 8 08:31:41 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:31:41 EST Subject: Urban Slang Message-ID: Urban slang dictionary that is written by the visitors to the website who post their definition of urban slang terms: Urban Dictionary is a slang dictionary with your definitions. Define your world http://www.urbandictionary.com/ Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 08:55:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:55:26 -0500 Subject: Erin McKean on Chicago Public Radio Message-ID: An interview with Erin McKean was broadcast yesterday on Chicago Public Radio's show Eight Forty-Eight, on the occasion of Verbatim's 30th anniversary. ADS WOTY was mentioned at the top of the program (the "news hook" was that the word was being selected as the program aired). http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/audio_library/848_rajan05.asp Audio link: http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/DWP_XML/848/2005_01/848_20050107_0935_4273/segment_181937.ram --Ben Zimmer From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jan 8 14:11:29 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:11:29 -0500 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: <33080B86-60E8-11D9-AF93-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 03:10:38PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > Ron's suggestion seems to be a reasonable compromise to me. For > reasons known only to the gremlins of e-mail, I don't always receive > the initial post and it's nice to be able to scroll down to see what > the original question was. People interested in this subject should Google "top-posting" for a wide variety of discussions on the topic. Most people dislike top-posting and prefer _edited_ posts with the new comments interspersed. Most of the ADS-L comments in favor of top-posting are arguing that it helps people remember the chain of discussion. In fact, this is an argument _against_ what is often practiced here. I, for one, do not find it helpful to see the comment "Yes!" or "Me too" or "I'm sure I heard that in Nebraska in the 1960s" at the very top of a long and discursive quoted message. If it's really necessary to quote the entirety of a previous message, or several such, by all means do so. But usually responses are relevant to only a small part of an earlier message. Trimming this message down to its relevant parts, and adding one's response in the appropriate place, not only ensures that the sequence is clear and the background is known (whether because one has forgotten the original discussion, not received it because of mail gremlins, or whatever), but that readers know what the new post is actually about. And that bandwidth--network, storage, or perceptual--isn't wasted. Jesse Sheidlower OED From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jan 8 16:51:56 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:51:56 -0800 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: <20050108141129.GA26579@panix.com> Message-ID: > Trimming this message down to its relevant parts, and adding > one's response in the appropriate place, not only ensures that > the sequence is clear and the background is known (whether > because one has forgotten the original discussion, not > received it because of mail gremlins, or whatever), but that > readers know what the new post is actually about. And that > bandwidth--network, storage, or perceptual--isn't wasted. I'd like to echo Jesse's comment and add that since this list is archived, if one is joining the conversation late, it is relatively easy to go to the archive and catch up on the entire thread. I do this all the time if when I discover a thread that I've been ignoring holds interest for me. And trimming the message and adding the response at the appropriate location is extremely helpful when looking at messages in the archive. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 18:45:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:45:33 -0500 Subject: Grant Barrett on Boston Public Radio Message-ID: Another public radio interview broadcast yesterday-- Grant Barrett, live on the scene at the ADS meetings, interviewed on WBUR-Boston's "Here and Now": http://here-now.org/shows/2005/01/20050107_13.asp Audio link: http://realserver.bu.edu:8080/ramgen/w/b/wbur/herenow/2005/01/hn_0107.rm?start=30:29 --Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 8 21:52:29 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:52:29 -0500 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: <20050108050144.8C4ACB2851@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Ron wrote: >>>> Yes. I don't quite see the problem with repeating the messages, as long as the new comments are at the TOP and I don't have to scroll to the bottom to find out what the new comment is. <<<< "Scroll to the bottom" implies that you receive and read each message individually. I have found it difficult to deal with the continual interruptions to my workday and subscribe with the digest option, receiving 24 hours' worth of posts each day just after midnight. I have to scroll down, down, and down further, watching for the end of the "> > > >" (and so on in varying lengths) at the left margin, with special attention required if I want to read the contributions of those who insert a line or two of their own comment here and there amid 400 lines of multi-generation quote. I am not the only person in the world who finds top-quoting difficult to read; see below. In my own posts, I try to - quote enough to provide context, but no more - arrange multiple generations of quotes, if any, in threaded order - and attribute all quotes to their originators. This takes a bit of time and effort, of course, but I consider it worthwhile, making my posts (I hope) easier and clearer to read, and doing unto my fellow listies as I would like them to do unto me. mark by hand \\\\\ http://lists.netisland.net/archives/plug/plug-2004-06/msg00119.html You've misread my purpose. The reason I harp on this is that top-replies are qualitatively less useful for the community. I've watched quite a few email conversations go horribly askew, including people requesting information that was already presented in the reply trail, because there was too much useless information there. I've also, far too often, gone through the experience of asking someone a series of questions and getting a top-replied "Yes" back (or something similar). These are infuriating problems that are a direct result of top-replies. You'll note that I did also respond to the question at hand at the time. I included the top-reply complaint because answering that simple question had required me to go through the top-reply spaghetti to figure out what was going wrong. *Especially* in the case that you're asking for help from technically skilled Unix-y people, top-replies are a Bad Idea. > As a courtesy to others I will cut off non-relevant portions of the > message below the top quote. Answers to ordered lists will be responded > to in-line with a note at the top of the message signifying this. I think that's a reasonable approach, but I think it's more work for you than just replying infix the way traditional MUAs (that is, pre-Outlook) default to doing (and the way I am here). (I note that you didn't actually trim the useless quoting from the message I'm replying to here.) [...] \\\\\ http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html What is the reason to quote at all? Consider it. It shouldn't be to allow people to scroll down to see all earlier discussions. If the news client is a bit smart, fetching the older articles from the server should be just as easy as to "scroll down". If a thread goes forth and back some times and earlier quotes accumulate, an article including all those quotes might get five-ten times larger than a posting without quotes, this wastes bandwidth and hard disk space. Therefore, IMHO, no quotes are far better than a posting at the top of all old quotes. Ot the other hand, it's very easy to lose the context in a posting without any quoting at all. Letting the reader understand the context is very important for easy reading. Therefore there should always be some few lines reminding the reader about what kind of discussion he is into. If a person has to scroll down to read the new information, there are probably too much quotes in the article. A person that is good to use quotes never quotes more than some few lines at once. If I can't find the right lines to quote, I often replace all the quotes with a short summary of the discussion so far. Actually I can agree that it is more annoying when complete articles are quoted with a small "yes" or "no" at the bottom than to read a top-post. There is also another very important aspect with quoting that shouldn't be underestimated; the quotes should tell what parts of an article you're replying to. Often you have some viewpoints about some parts of an article, and other viewpoints about other parts of it. The best way to solve that is to quote a little bit, come with some comments, quote some more, and then write some comments to that as well. This can't at all be done in a top-posting. [...] From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sat Jan 8 20:39:10 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:39:10 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: This was new to me, and I have three sisters. My wife didn't hear it at school, but much later (1980s) heard this version as recollected high-school girl folk lore: I must I must I must increase my bust. The bigger The better The tighter the sweater. She remembers a Gidget movie (1960s) where girls at a slumber party did hands-together-push-pull isometric exercises, but without the IBTC chant. Seán Fitzpatrick Does "Thou shalt not steal", etc. on the court house create a hostile work environment for lawyers and politicians? http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sat Jan 8 21:58:34 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:58:34 -0500 Subject: Not to say Message-ID: Here's an idiom question. I started to write "the Catholic, not to say Christian, doctrine" and realized I am not sure which way NtS swings. What is the import of the somewhat UKish expression "not to say", as in "A, not to say B..."? Is it different from the neutral "not to mention"? 1.. Inclusive aside; "not to mention", "my argument could be even stronger", e.g., "the Christian, not to say legal, prohibition" 2.. Intensification; "a fortiori"; e.g., "the Christian, not to say Catholic, doctrine" 3.. Categorical inclusion; "it goes without saying"; e.g., "the Christian, not to say Catholic, doctrine" 4.. Categorical expansion; "I am speaking more narrowly than I need to; e.g., "the Catholic, not to say Christian, doctrine" Seán Fitzpatrick Does "Thou shalt not steal", etc. on the courthouse create a hostile environment for lawyers and politicians? http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 00:02:28 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:02:28 EST Subject: Vertical game Message-ID: I don't recall ever having heard the phrase "vertical game" (meaning long passes in American football) before this year's NFL season, when the commentators on the Philadelphia Eagles seemed to use it in every game. However, I found what purports to be a 1999 Web site URL http://www.badgermaniac.com/99footballpreview.html which contains "If a quarterback emerges who can do anything to give the Badgers a vertical game in the three important conference matchups, the Badgers could shock the nation and go to the Sugar Bowl or at least return to the Rose Bowl." Interestingly, "vertical game" also appears in "real" football: URL http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3129330.stm "Football has gained considerable popularity in Japan, but even after last year's World Cup finals, it's a fair bet that local fans were not prepared for the vertical game. But in Osaka, 12 storeys above the ground, football is defying gravity. The players are attached to rubber cords of the kind usually used by bungy jumpers, and so is the ball. The players already had a head for heights - one of the pair, 43-year-old Hisanori Kizu, cleans windows on Osaka skyscrapers. "I've bungy-jumped a few times so this doesn't bother me at all and it's actually a lot of fun," he said. Adidas hope the campaign will build on momentum created by the 2002 World Cup, jointly-hosted by Japan and South Korea. The players hope to take the vertical game to another country where football is still a newcomer - the United States." - ("vertically" challenged) James A. Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 06:25:30 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:25:30 EST Subject: Smelly, Stinky Tofu (1989); Original Vincent's Sauce (1904) Message-ID: Just got through watching the Jets game. They just barely won in OT. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- STINKY TOFU ... STINKY TOFU--5,070 Google hits, 223 Google Groups hits SMELLY TOFU--3,470 Google hits, 57 Google Groups hits ... ... ... Wednesday's New York Times did a nice piece on my favorite food--tofu. So, on Saturday, I go to the New York Public Library, try to order the oldest "tofu" book (1975), and find it's--all together now--off-site. ... The Times article mentioned "stinky" tofu. Jen Chung (the Gothamist "queen of the blogosphere") said she was served "smelly tofu" over Christmas. ... OED ("miserable on food") has neither "stinky" nor "smelly." OED is beaten by the Wikipedia! Google hits seem to favor "stinky" over "smelly," by a nose. ... The dish is from Shanghai, but is popular throughout Taiwan. NYU closed early (intersession) and I didn't check the Factiva database. ... ... ... _http://www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php_ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php) ... _Jen Chung: Christmas Lunch in Hong Kong_ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php) ... tofu. The tofu is called "smelly tofu," and honestly, it does smell awful, like worse than a smelly shoe, closer to a toilet. You ... www.gothamist.com/archives/ jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php - 22k - Jan 8, 2005 - _Cached_ (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_LJqGIUsprgJ:www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php+"smelly+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php) ... First, for appetizers (it's like antipasti - you choose a little bit of everything), we had mung beans, deep-fried sardines, ham, and some deep-fried fermented tofu. The tofu is called "smelly tofu," and honestly, it does smell awful, like worse than a smelly shoe, closer to a toilet. You can smother it with hoisin and/or hot chili sauce to neutralize it a bit, but I gave up after two bites and gave it to my brother. The sardines and beans, though, were great. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Tofu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu) ... tofu. One famous Shanghaiese delicacy is stinky tofu (Chinese:???, literally: stinky tofu), which smells like rotten eggs. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu - 21k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VjyTmtqILB0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu+"stinky+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _NY Times Article on Tofu_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/AR-Ne ws/browse_frm/thread/b85b1da9a9f9af3c/7e24c7ab225f38af?q="stinky+tofu"&_done=/groups?q= "stinky+tofu"&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+t o+Search&&d#7e24c7ab225f38af) ... And at the new location of Spicy and Tasty in Flushing, Queens, you can order a plate of "stinky tofu," a long-fermented Taiwanese specialty that is to plain ... _AR-News_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/AR-News) - Jan 5, 7:07 pm by Chris Holbein - 1 message - 1 author ... _Stinky Tofu lovers_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.taiwan/browse_frm/thread/e63617d09e69178c/b6a3ec7b3ce1d69b?q="stinky+tofu"&_done=/grou ps?q="stinky+tofu"&start=0&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Sea rch&&d#b6a3ec7b3ce1d69b) There are different ways to eat stinky Tofu these days in Taiwan. Like steam stinky tofu is also delicious. I heard there is a restaurant ... _soc.culture.taiwan_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.taiwan) - Mar 3 1997, 1:36 am by User996487 - 35 messages - 16 authors ... _Stinky Tofu (chou doufu) (was: Yucky Foods)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_frm/thread/c7ffdc297d879536/f0ffd889ffccca08?q=" stinky+tofu"&_done=/groups?q="stinky+tofu"&start=0&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1 &&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f0ffd889ffccca08) Stinky tofu surely doesn't smell like a sewer. If you think it does, you're not remembering right what a sewer smells like. OK, you ... _rec.food.cooking_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking) - Jun 16 2002, 4:47 am by Adilah_K - 33 messages - 26 authors ... _Stinky tofu (Chinese Cheese)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.recipes/browse_frm/thread/6dd2fe581db5dcac/c557c2e5ee1ff675?q="stinky+tofu"&_do ne=/groups?q="stinky+tofu"&start=0&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Bac k+to+Search&&d#c557c2e5ee1ff675) hello, i have read an article about stinky tofu (Chinese cheese). But I have never try it before. By any chance does anybody have the receipe. ... _rec.food.recipes_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.recipes) - Apr 29 1993, 2:48 pm by Geo & Nan - 1 message - 1 author ... _China's safty and Taiwan_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.taiwan.republic/browse_frm/thread/513126b28027cda5/0fd95dae27172fbe?q="stinky+tofu+|+tof &_done=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=stinky+tofu+|+tof as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mi nd=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=8&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1997&safe=off&&_doneTi tle=Back+to+Search&&d#0fd95dae27172fbe) ... or Lim Giong. Not too sure about 'Stinky Tofu' either :) James C. Oh boy. Stinky Tofu originated from Shanghai area. The block-heads ... _alt.taiwan.republic_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.taiwan.republic) - Feb 7 1994, 3:00 pm by Hank - 12 messages - 9 authors ... _Most interesting food you've eaten?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.travel/browse_frm/thread/ad4018def2c51340/6b19ec3177c90257?q="stinky+tofu+|+t of&_done=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=stinky+tofu+|+t ofas_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_ mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=8&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1997&safe=off&&_done Title=Back+to+Search&&d#6b19ec3177c90257) As far as disgusting smells are concerned, anyone who has ever been to Taiwan will long remember the smell of Chou dou-fu (Stinky Tofu). ... _rec.travel_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.travel) - Jul 2 1993, 9:43 am by Ed Chen - 45 messages - 42 authors ... _Cheese_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.asian.american/browse_frm/thread/428d69e0c5a25b95/3e34711b9b2b8a4f?q="smelly+tofu"&_done=/groups?q ="smelly+tofu"&start=50&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back +to+Search&&d#3e34711b9b2b8a4f) ... fan ever since. I think a fairly accurate analogy can be drawn between cheese and the Taiwanese delicacy: smelly tofu. For the gourmand ... _soc.culture.asian.american_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.asian.american) - Jul 20 1992, 4:33 am by Peter Wung - 52 messages - 30 authors ... _street vendors_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.hongkong/browse_frm/thread/f3b5c810cd5bec20/a3d42070815b147b?q="smelly+tofu"&_done=/group s?q="smelly+tofu"&start=50&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=B ack+to+Search&&d#a3d42070815b147b) Does anyone know the secrets to making "smelly" tofu? No offense, but: .... But I don't like bittermelon either. I am serious about finding the answer. ... _soc.culture.hongkong_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.hongkong) - Sep 25 1989, 4:47 pm by Forrest Chang - 8 messages - 6 authors ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) No "stinky" or "smelly" hits. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) No :stinky" or "smelly" hits. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- ORIGINAL VINCENT'S SAUCE; FRENCH ONION SOUP ... _http://www.originalvincents.com/our_illustrious_history.html_ (http://www.originalvincents.com/our_illustrious_history.html) ... Following the Historic turn of the century, ending the Illustrious Gay 90's, Giuseppe and Carmela Siano established the now World Famous Vincent's Clam Bar, in 1904, named after their son. The sidewalk clam bar was located at the corner of Mott and Hester street in little italy, New York City, Where it still flourishes today, serving succulent varieties of Italian Seafood. It is the original home of _Vincent's Sauce_ (http://www.originalvincents.com/ordersauce.html) . It was also in 1904 that Carmala Siano introduced her secret old world recipe for the internationally celebrated _Vincent's Sauce_ (http://www.originalvincents.com/ordersauce.html) . Many have tried to imitate her secret ingredients and processing unsuccessfully! ... ... COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON FRIDAY NIGHT?--Artisanal Fromagerie & Bistro, 2 Park Avenue at 32nd Street. Metro (which claims 500,000 free circulation and is in a heated war with am New York) did a Friday article on the best French onion soup in New York. I tried the celebrated Artisanal. It's known for its cheeses and the soup was very good, but nothing too special. The fish & frites was good. ... WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY? Soup-'n-Burger on Broadway at Astor Place, near NYU. The French onion soup here was not mentioned in the Metro article. It's half the price ($4) of Artisanal. Not bad. Still, nothing is as good as La Bonne Soup on West 55th Street. ... Original Vincent's, 119 Mott Street. Vincent's proudly declares 1904-2004. Although it's been in Little Italy for a century, it's nothing too special. I ordered a plate of cheese ravioli with "medium hot" Vincent's Sauce. The worst part of the dish was the sauce! It was still too hot, and it didn't have much of anything in it. Bleh! I've had Italian prostitutes make better tomato sauce! However. don't say that when you're in Vincent's! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 07:07:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:07:48 -0500 Subject: narrowcast(ing) (1924) Message-ID: * narrowcasting, n. (OED3 1932) 1924 _Los Angeles Times_ 6 Jan. II9/7 Just so soon as we destroy that freedom and universality of radio and confine it to only those who pay for it -- those who pay for the service, in other words -- just so soon as we make of broadcasting 'narrowcasting,' we destroy the fundamantal of the whole situation. 1924 _New York Times_ 19 May 15/1 "We will, in other words, arrive at a system of 'narrow-casting' instead of broadcasting," the inventor said. * narrowcasting, a. (OED3 1985) 1928 _New York Times_ 17 Feb. 20/5 Is it better business to lease narrowcasting sets, which also consume alternating current, than to sell broadcasting receivers? * narrowcast, a. (OED3 1937) 1924 _Los Angeles Times_ 6 Jan. II9/7 And, therefore, I believe very definitely that broadcasting as constituted today is commercially sound, and that it will remain so in the future, although there may be selective methods and narrow-cast methods which will do no harm. * narrowcast, v. (OED3 1972) 1928 _New York Times_ 17 Feb. 20/5 Temptation to narrowcast is doubly strong because of the half million radio sets now in use which draw their energy not from batteries but from the lighting circuit and which consume each about $10 worth of alternating current a year. * narrowcast, n. (OED3 1977) 1932 _New York Times_ 20 May 3/4 The "narrow cast" was conducted through a beam of light from the control of the dirigible. ... Among those to talk over the "narrow cast" was the commander of the ship, F. T. Berry. 1933 _Lincoln Star_ (Nebraska) 15 July 5/5 Narrowcasts have been successfully performed for twenty miles in the east, but radio station transmitters have been used. * narrowcaster (OED3 1980) 1930 _Los Angeles Times_ 22 Oct. II4/1 Radio will have to learn that its offerings go to fans and folks on both sides. Else broadcasters will be narrowcasters. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 07:36:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:36:46 -0500 Subject: Vertical game Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:02:28 EST, James A. Landau wrote: >I don't recall ever having heard the phrase "vertical game" (meaning long >passes in American football) before this year's NFL season, when the >commentators on the Philadelphia Eagles seemed to use it in every game. >However, I found what purports to be a 1999 Web site >URL http://www.badgermaniac.com/99footballpreview.html >which contains "If a quarterback emerges who can do anything to give the >Badgers a vertical game in the three important conference matchups, the >Badgers could shock the nation and go to the Sugar Bowl or at least >return to the Rose Bowl." Here's a 1986 cite: New York Times, Aug 31, 1986, p. S1 "He's a guy who can catch the ball in the vertical game very well," Hackett said. "He's a hand catcher, he can jump and leap and catch it. He looks smooth running the routes, he flows into it very easily." That's a quote about Herschel Walker from Paul Hackett -- then the Dallas Cowboys' pass offense coordinator, now the Jets' offensive coordinator (whose dubious play-calling continues to give Jets fans conniptions). And here's an earlier NY Times cite, from a 1981 column by NBC Nightly News producer Henry L. Griggs complaining about the incomprehensible commentating on that year's Super Bowl broadcast: New York Times, Feb 1, 1981, p. S2 Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 08:11:48 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:11:48 EST Subject: Vertical Game/Offense (1981) Message-ID: Damn that Ben Zimmer! Beat me by seconds! ... "Vertical game" was widely used in the 1980s. It was made famous by the Oakland Raiders. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Fumbles at the Mike Fill the Super Bowl_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=114175448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName= HNP&TS=1105255139&clientId=65882) By HENRY L. GRIGGS Jr.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 1, 1981. p. S2 (1 page) ... Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." ... _Raiders: Predictability Put Foe in Predicament; It Was All Predictable Except for the Result _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=127823082&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clien tId=65882) By Paul Attner Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 24, 1984. p. C1 (2 pages) Page C4: Because of the wind, even Plunkett hardly went downtown in the Raiders' vertical offense. ... _Molded in Al Davis's Image; Power Behind Raiders Makes Them Fit His Image _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=120451189&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10& VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clientId=65882) By MICHAEL JANOFSKYEL SEGUNDO, Calif.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1984. p. S1 (2 pages) Page 6: Wide receivers need, above all, speed because of the Raiders' "vertical" offense. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Times Recorder _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2vQ7G4ztzPygqjFQKcVwK+OUNB3I6gXroA==) Monday, March 11, 1974 _Zanesville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:zanesville+vertical+offense) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+offense) ...who don't play too much used USC's VERTICAL OFFENSE against our top eight.....the rest of the way. Boston's OFFENSE never got off the ground in the. ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2kmnfD/KalHCRKlAZVmURN0jbtL4V7NJxQ==) Wednesday, August 20, 1986 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+vertical+game) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+game) ...Sam Rutigliano used to talk about the "VERTICAL GAME." It's still the quickest.....The loss broke Cleveland's four GAME winning streak and also cost the.. ... _News Record _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEt2YujW4u1fjTKMOvmC6JeT0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, September 08, 1989 _North Hills,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_hills+vertical+game+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+vertical+game+AND) ...geles Raiders to return to their famed VERTICAL GAME the high- powered offense.....downfieid for then opt for the short GAME if else fails Denver coach Dan.. ... _Capital _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2kqKKdP1sBkRsXev0C5pLYL+HTeu2vtXIkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, November 06, 1994 _Annapolis,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+vertical+game) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+vertical+game) ...pro football's best left tackles. The VERTICAL GAME became horizon- Schroeder.....Thomas Smith says of the first Jets' GAME. is going to be a huge GAME for not.. ... ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ("vertical game" + "passing") ... _QB situation Bites_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy/browse_frm/thread/290fde870eafff76/1d910026baf6d03e?q="vertical+game"+ passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=U TF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#1d910026baf6d03e) ... Almost every one but Det. had a big passing game against NE. ... I would tend to lean toward Hoss just because the "vertical" game has to eventually get going. ... _rec.sport.football.fantasy_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy) - Oct 6 1994, 6:26 am by mch... at nwu.edu - 2 messages - 2 authors ... _LYNX game reviews_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/7679ffb5cb7ba9b0/0d06d95fdcec98ec?q="vertical+game"+passin g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c 2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0d06d95fdcec98ec) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _rec.games.video.atari_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Oct 3 1994, 6:37 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author ... _Freakishly Overdeveloped Geeks 0_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/3aa48a895e532e7a/62cb993e5522ec60?q="verti cal+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d& hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#62cb993e5522ec60) ... Is Curtis Conway *really* as bad as he looked last year? If so, the Bears don't have a passing game. ... AFC West: 1) LOS ANGELES. The vertical game is back. ... _rec.sport.football.pro_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Sep 3 1994, 2:19 pm by Arthur Hlavaty - 1 message - 1 author ... _Lynx game reviews_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/fb2927b25dec8025/be96dfb6998260c9?q="vertical+game"+passin g&_done=/gro ups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#be96dfb6998260c9) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _rec.games.video.atari_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Aug 3 1994, 4:34 pm by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author ... _Hostetler_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/606d84cee736e1bc/29a5ffa8c5e539bb?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done= /groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1& &_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#29a5ffa8c5e539bb) ... A typical passing play looked like this: 1. Snap, drop back. 2. Check first receiver. ... BTW, teams need more than excellent receivers for a good vertical game. ... _rec.sport.football.pro_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul 14 1994, 4:52 pm by Peter Simko - 16 messages - 12 authors ... _Sleeper Teams_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/4068de60e2505966/e24a0a060478a2b1?q="vertical+game"+passing&_ done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2co ff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#e24a0a060478a2b1) ... consensus) the raiders need a running game to go with that "vertical game" This I ... I mean Hose-stuffer should have been one of the NFL passing leaders...instead ... _rec.sport.football.pro_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul 12 1994, 6:15 pm by SAD... at psuvm.psu.edu - 45 messages - 31 authors ... _LYNX Game Reviews_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/d0932d73638565f7/27af040ded79cca4?q="vertical+game"+passin g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c 2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#27af040ded79cca4) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _rec.games.video.atari_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - May 31 1994, 11:01 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author ... _Why soccer?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/e3750208eba1efb6/b39310263d5880aa?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done=/gr oups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_d oneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b39310263d5880aa) ... the vertical game took hold in this century - (thank ND and Knute Rockne?) - that American Football took on its current _general_ character as a passing game ... _rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) - May 21 1994, 2:06 pm by Simon K Boocock - 11 messages - 9 authors ... _Lynx Reviews (all of them. LONG file)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/7ec1245048b46150/f95ef1eb801f920a?q="vertical +game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl= en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f95ef1eb801f920a) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Nov 7 1993, 9:37 am by Kevin Dangoor - 1 message - 1 author ... _Football and Pinball Jam are out_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/58c222cd8afae3da/de972e7b51265ec6?q="vertical+game "+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie =UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#de972e7b51265ec6) ... 1) The Pinball Jam is a vertical game that scrolls up and down to keep you the ... Passing plays are a bit better, except that interceptions are fairly arbitrary. ... _alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Sep 19 1992, 8:09 am by Michael L. Kaufman - 5 messages - 4 authors ... _Lynx reviews! HOCKEY, HYDRA, LYNX CASINO_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/2fe4429cb8d36ac3/9302c1ff98c4a297?q="vertic al+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=160&scoring=d&h l=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#9302c1ff98c4a297) ... HOCKEY 1-2 players, horizontal & vertical game Atari Corp ... Player selection (with OPTION 1) and puck-passing (with button B) are managable, but shooting for the ... _alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Jun 26 1992, 3:15 pm by Robert A. Jung - 1 message - 1 author From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 08:22:28 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:22:28 -0500 Subject: Smelly, Stinky Tofu (1989); Original Vincent's Sauce (1904) Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:25:30 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >The Times article mentioned "stinky" tofu. Jen Chung (the Gothamist "queen >of the blogosphere") said she was served "smelly tofu" over Christmas. >... >OED ("miserable on food") has neither "stinky" nor "smelly." OED is beaten >by the Wikipedia! Google hits seem to favor "stinky" over "smelly," by a >nose. [...] >Does anyone know the secrets to making "smelly" tofu? No offense, but: >.... >But I don't like bittermelon either. I am serious about finding the >answer. >... >_soc.culture.hongkong_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.hongkong) - Sep 25 1989, >4:47 pm by Forrest Chang - 8 messages - 6 authors For earlier references try searching on "smelly/stinky bean curd"... -------- Christian Science Monitor, June 5, 1980, p. 12 (Nexis) During a two-week tour of China with a group of 15 American chefs and food writers, I sampled Chairman Mao's favorite -- Stinky Bean Curd -- at the Fire Palace Restaurant in Changsha. -------- Washington Post, Sep 9, 1984, p. C5 (Proquest) He can decide for himself if he wants to order abalone with bone goose feet, live shrimp, jellyfish skins, candied sweet and sour lamb slices, fish lips with crab roe, jellied chicken blood, stinking bean curd or red-stewed elephant trunk, all dishes listed in his book's glossary. -------- Newsgroup: net.cooks Subject: Re: Cheese and Chinese food (the Mongol connection) Message-ID: <235 at tekig4.UUCP> Date: Thu, 29-Aug-85 13:56:12 EDT In some parts of China, cheese cultured from soybean, called stinky bean curd, is highly appreciated. -------- The 1984 Post article refers to the late Jim McCawley's classic guidebook, _The Eater's Guide to Chinese Characters_ (Univ. of Chicago Press), now back in print after 20 years. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226555925/ --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 09:24:51 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:24:51 EST Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea Message-ID: STINKY, SMELLY TOFU ... Thanks to Ben Zimmer for using "bean curd" to track this to 1980. It's often transliterated as "dofou," which is why I thought "tofu" would be used. But I think it's going to be earlier than 1980 in that 1975 book that was offsite: ... (CATNYP) ... Call # _JFM 96-713 NYPL has: Vol. 1 only._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cJFM+96-713/cjfm+++++96++++713/-5,-1,0,E/2browse) Author _Shurtleff, William, 1941-_ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aShurtleff,+William,+1941-/ashurtleff+william+1941-/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title The book of tofu / William Shurtleff & Akiko Aoyagi ; illustrated by Akiko Aoyagi. Imprint Brookline, Mass. : Autumn Press, c1975- LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS _OFFSITE_ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/screens/offsitehome.html) _ JFM 96-713_ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/c+++JFM+96-713/cjfm+++++96++++713/-5,-1,,E/browse) v. 1 AVAILABLE Location Humanities-Genrl Res Descript v. : ill. ; 28 cm. Note Bibliography: v. 1, p. 317-318. Includes index. Contents v. 1. Food for mankind. ... ... ... ... >From the Los Angeles Public Library menu collection: ... ... "SURF AND TURF" (not that name, but the item) ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/15053-inside4.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/15053-inside4.jpg) ... ... MAYFLOWER "THE OPTIMIST'S CREED" ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/h/rb01195-front.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/h/rb01195-front.jpg) ... ... ... ... ITALIAN ICED TEA ... I noticed this at Original Vincent's, 119 Mott Street. There are 114 Google hits. It's like "Long Island Iced Tea." ... (GOOGLE) ... _Italian Iced Tea Cocktail Recipe_ (http://cocktails.about.com/library/recipes/blitalianicedtea.htm) ... Search. Cocktails / Beer. Italian Iced Tea. 1 1/4 oz. Sweet Vermouth, Ginger Ale. Serve over ice, Garnish with a lemon twist. Back to the Recipe List. ... cocktails.about.com/library/ recipes/blitalianicedtea.htm - 20k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EjKwSVv6m-oJ:cocktails.about.com/library/r ecipes/blitalianicedtea.htm+"Italian+iced+tea"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:cocktails.about.com/library/recipes/blitalianicedtea.htm) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 09:47:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:47:57 -0500 Subject: flea-flicker (1911) Message-ID: On the Jets' second possession, their offensive coordinator, Paul Hackett, called a flea flicker. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/sports/football/09jets.html A flea-flicker is "any of various deceptive football plays in which the ball is quickly transferred between players (as by a lateral) before or after a forward pass" (W10). HDAS relies on W10 for a first cited date of 1927. The HDAS cites, Proquest, and Google all suggest that the "flea-flicker" was invented by Bob Zuppke, who coached Chicago's Oak Park High School team before becoming head coach at the University of Illinois in 1913. http://www.coachz.net/B.Zuppke.htm Zuppke will always be known for having one of football's greatest minds. He invented the huddle, the flea-flicker, the screen pass, the pass-block, the long snap and a new defensive position now known as the 'linebacker.' Earliest cites from the Trib: ------- 1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 19 Nov. C1/6 All the intricate formations Coach Zuppkee [sic] ever evolved were used with effect. The famous "flea flicker," "whoa-back," and other uncanny formations worked with much success. ------- 1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 3 Dec. B2/1 A famous "flea flicker" went bad but Oak Park recovered. ------- 1913 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 2 Nov. B3/5 Oak Park's "Ghee Haw," "Flea Flicker," and "Flying Dutchman" plays were a revelation to the effete east and Everett was beaten 32 to 14. The "Ghee Haw," which received its name as a pun because originally it centered around Ghee, present quarterback at Dartmouth, was a double pass and then a forward pass, while the "Flea Flicker" called for three passes before the long forward pass. ------- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 09:55:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:55:10 EST Subject: "Stinking bean curds" (1933) Message-ID: Ben writes: ... For earlier references try searching on "smelly/stinky bean curd"... -------- Christian Science Monitor, June 5, 1980, p. 12 (Nexis) During a two-week tour of China with a group of 15 American chefs and food writers, I sampled Chairman Mao's favorite -- Stinky Bean Curd -- at the Fire Palace Restaurant in Changsha. -------- Washington Post, Sep 9, 1984, p. C5 (Proquest) He can decide for himself if he wants to order abalone with bone goose feet, live shrimp, jellyfish skins, candied sweet and sour lamb slices, fish lips with crab roe, jellied chicken blood, stinking bean curd or red-stewed elephant trunk, all dishes listed in his book's glossary. ... ... ... All right. But this is Peking and the dish is from Shanghai. Maybe the vendors just sell awful bean curd? ... ... _PEIPING: MIRROR OF CHINA'S VAST DRAMA; Again the Ancient Capital Becomes The Focal Point of the Nation's Struggle With an Invader PEIPING: MIRROR OF A DRAMA IMPERIAL SHRINE. There the Struggle of the Chinese Focuses _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=105140229&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105264339&clientId=65882) By GEORGE E. SOKOLSKY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 4, 1933. p. SM4 (3 pages) First page, column one: No jolly noises here; no tom=tom or bellowing horns of Lama priests; no funeral or wedding processions with screaming orchestra; no street vendor selling "stinking bean curds" or sugar candy; no varnished ducks in the windows, no water-carriers plying between the wells and the hot-water shops. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Sun Jan 9 13:15:26 2005 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:15:26 -0500 Subject: Not to say Message-ID: >===== Original Message From Seán Fitzpatrick ===== >Here's an idiom question. >I started to write "the Catholic, not to say Christian, doctrine" and realized I am not sure which way NtS swings. What is the import of the somewhat UKish expression "not to say", as in "A, not to say B..."? Is it different from the neutral "not to mention"? The OED says: >b. not to say...: used (a) to imply that the speaker is content with a more moderate statement than that which he might have made; (b) colloq. = ‘not what one may call...’, ‘not..., properly speaking’.< Bethany From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jan 9 14:19:22 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:19:22 +0100 Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea In-Reply-To: <20050109092459.C35CDB03@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > STINKY, SMELLY TOFU > ... > Thanks to Ben Zimmer for using "bean curd" to track this to 1980. It's > often > transliterated as "dofou," which is why I thought "tofu" would be used. > But Actually, it's often transliterated as doufu, because that's what it's called in Chinese (in the pinyin transliteration). Tofu is Japanese. It's too bad that "bean curd" has been replaced by "tofu." Paul _________________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese: social sciences and humanities from German, French, and Spanish: sinology e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 15:10:37 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:10:37 EST Subject: ''Today's Trade is Tomorrow's Competition" Message-ID: I find the phrase "Today's Trade is Tomorrow's Competition" used (incompletely) in Robert Scully's American gay novel, A SCARLET PANSY (New York: William Farro, 1933; copyright date 1932). Does anyone know of an earlier cite? Is there any scholarship on this novel and/or Scully (a pseudonym)? The novel is supposedly set in the period 1c875 From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 15:14:08 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:14:08 EST Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/05 7:10:37 AM, RonButters writes: > I find the phrase "The Language of Flowers" used in Robert Scully's > American gay novel, A SCARLET PANSY (New York: William Farro, 1933; copyright date > 1932). Does anyone know what this means? It appears to have something to do > with a signalling system used by gay men to signal their sexual availablity > and/or preferences. > > The novel is supposedly set in the period c1880-1915, but it seems to have > been written in the 1930s. > From slangman at PACBELL.NET Sun Jan 9 15:54:16 2005 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:54:16 -0800 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: Without knowing the context, is it possible that Scully was simply referring to the Victorian "language of flowers," in which each flower represented a certain sentiment or emotion? There were any number of books and postcards in the era depicting the "language." An article from the Collier's Cyclopedia of Commerial and Social Information (1882) on the language of flowers is reproduced at http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/hilda/flang.html. Tom Dalzell >In a message dated 1/9/05 7:10:37 AM, RonButters writes: > >>I find the phrase "The Language of Flowers" used in Robert Scully's >>American gay novel, A SCARLET PANSY (New York: William Farro, 1933; copyright date >>1932). Does anyone know what this means? It appears to have something to do >>with a signalling system used by gay men to signal their sexual availablity >>and/or preferences. The novel is supposedly set in the period c1880-1915, but it seems to have >>been written in the 1930s. >> >> >> > > > From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Jan 9 16:33:56 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:33:56 +0000 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My partner and fellow slang researcher Susie Ford has read Scully's /The Scarlet Pansy/ in search of citations. While it may have been set in the late 19C/early 20C, there seems little doubt that the language used, while often representing an early or even first use of a given word, is that of 1920s/30s. For example 'swap spit', 'mantee', 'chichi', 'femme' (in this case an effeminate homosexual man) and 'brown', as one of several deliberately 'gay' names, e.g Elsie Dike, in this case as follows: 'There was an elegant Miss Drexel-Bütsch of Philadelphia; also there were the Brown-Bütsches of New Rochelle (very classy indeed), and a whole Bütsch-Fuchs family in New York'; the obvious 'butch' and 'fucks' aside, I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = excrement. As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for their own signaling requirements. Tomorrow she is going to check it again (it is in the British Library) and if anything of interest emerges, comment accordingly. Jonathon Green From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jan 9 18:09:59 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:09:59 -0600 Subject: moustache--(Why a moustache was likened to a baseball team) Message-ID: On Dec. 13, 2004 Bill Mullins sent an ads-l message wondering how "miniature baseball nines" could mean "moustache" in a 1929 high-school yearbook. [See item below my signoff.] It just occurred to me that the answer is obvious: The writer twice refers to the moustache making "the hit" with the girls. Baseball teams make hits. Ergo,... Q.E.D., case closed. It's Miller time. Gerald Cohen Original message, Dec. 13, 2004 from Bill Mullins: >From _The Tiger Claw_, yearbook of the class of 1929, The University High School, Columbia MO, p. 73 >From a description of attending a dance: "The moustache was what made the hit with the girls. Now, if you want to be mean, you can ask if it got in the way while it was making the hit, but that wasn't what I meant. I always have wondered why men wore those miniature baseball nines on their upper lips. But when I saw how the girls liked to "fix" mine, I understood." Miniature baseball nines??? What is the allusion? # # # From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 18:28:56 2005 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:28:56 EST Subject: Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities Message-ID: Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities -- twenty- five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in The Vocabula Review (www.vocabula.com) over the last few years. 304 pages Here is the table of contents: Foreword PART THE FIRST - OUTBURSTS Kelly Cannon: Lawyers vs. Language While riding her bicycle, two dogs attacked my client. Early in my ten years as a legal secretary, I mailed a letter containing the preceding sentence. It wasn't my letter, thank heaven, and I didn't sign it. It was dictated and signed by a brand new lawyer - a "baby attorney" we call them in the field - who apparently thought his law degree and subsequent passage of the bar exam made him an ex officio English scholar. Steve Cook: Writing Down to Readers Very few modern writers dare tread into inkhorn terminology; schools of journalism no longer teach it and editors disdain it. If the reader happens on an unfamiliar word and must run to the dictionary, say they, the style is presumptively affected and consequently not relatable. The linguistic bar is therefore set to the lowest common denominator, ostensibly to appeal to the largest possible readership. The target for the young journalist appears to be writing that challenges no one. Few people would argue that modern journalism has admirably hit the bull's-eye. Susan Elkin: Children Deserve Poetry Why are teachers so terrified of poetry? And I mean real poetry - by Keats, Tennyson, Blake and Browning, and the like - not the desultory, trite little ditties that worm their way into modern English textbooks masquerading as poems. Is it because - heaven forbid - that they no longer know any? David Isaacson: Kvetching About Literary Criticism Something ironic happens to many English professors when they write for scholarly publication: they forget how to write. The same professors who try to teach students how to write clear expository prose themselves write a clotted mush unfit for human consumption. The very same professors who may be subtle interpreters of irony in literary works don't see the vast gulf separating their professional writing not just from common sense but good taste. Academic criticism not only smells of the musty lamp; it makes the reader's eyes smart. John Kilgore: Why Teachers Can't Read Poetry It tells us that poetry - good poetry, I mean - is threatening. Students and teachers alike are made uneasy by its complexity of form, and still more by its complexity of outlook. On the first score, it is hard to blame anyone. English poetry reports in from every point of the compass and from eight different centuries, and it is simply to be expected that any given reader will have trouble making basic sense of much of it. Johnny performs dismally as a reader of sonnets, but how would Shakespeare fare with a rap CD or a Nintendo game? The good news about difficulty of this order - archaic language and special conventions and so forth - is that it yields to honest effort. Given time, patience, common sense, a dictionary, and a reasonably well-educated teacher, what was unclear grows clear. Much the same can be said for the special difficulties of compressed and highly metaphorical speech, in poetry of one's own place and time. You discuss it, you practice, you get the hang of it; and the experience can be, for some students anyway, as stimulating and rewarding as any they have in the classroom. Mark L. Levinson: The Ribbon Mark L. Levinson: Shark Never Pen Pearson: One Day Desultorily Reading the American Heritage Dictionary at F I Stumble Upon Farkleberry and ... Pen Pearson: Sister Margaret's Brian Taylor: Essential Theatre Brian Taylor: L'Art Poetique PART THE SECOND - INSIGHTS Marylaine Block: Grammar Matters Not surprisingly, that passive construction is the usage favored by government and big business. "Toxic wastes were accidentally discharged into the river." "Confidential grand jury testimony was illegally leaked to reporters." The sentences leave unanswered the question "By whom?" Tim Buck: The Art of Conversation There are various ways of defining conversation. For my purpose, I will approach it from five directions: idle talk, casual speech, verbal tyranny, data exchange, genuine dialogue. Joseph Epstein: Upsizing The word downsizing, both an excuse and not a very happy euphemism for firing people, needs, I have decided, a mate: upsizing. The country seems to be in a serious upsizing phase. When and where and how it began, I don't pretend to know, but I have a lurking - as opposed to a somersaulting - suspicion that it may have begun with the naming of the size of cups at Starbuck's. David R. Williams: Snobs and Slobs What we have, and have always had, in American English is a classic battle between conservatives on one side who are afraid that the structures that provide our security are in danger of collapse and radicals on the other who seem willing to embrace any new fad that promises utopia. The conservatives want to retain the rules of grammar and diction and punctuation as handed down to them by their grandfathers. If it was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for them. Any change appears to them like the Hun at the gate about to pillage the city. These language snobs can be found in the letters-to-the-editor pages of all our major newspapers bewailing the fate of the republic if people don't follow every jot and tittle of the classic rules. Valerie Collins: Words of a Feather The wealth of polysemous words in English may be the bane of foreign learners, but the effortless ease with which they can be used to create humor and irony makes them the mainstay of editors, songwriters, ad people - everyone in fact who needs to think up attention-catching language. Puns, paragrams, and other forms of word play are pressed into service anywhere and everywhere - book titles and newspaper headlines, product and store names, billboards and T-shirts, stickers and badges Michael J. Sheehan: Nifty Neologisms Need a word for the fine wood powder left by boring insects? Of course you do; try frass. What about that indentation at the bottom of a wine bottle? It's called a punt. Crossword puzzle fans all know that an aglet is the plastic or metal sheath at the tip of a shoelace. And who would have thought that the world needed a word like haw, a dog's inner eyelid. Warren Jones: Tongue Warren Jones: Quiet Fight Elana Wolff: 1949 Santa Fe Lounge Car Elana Wolff: Marmara Barry Spacks: The Placing of a Comma Barry Spacks: From the Skymind Café PART THE THIRD - EXPLANATIONS Tina Bennett-Kastor: Our Democratic Language Besides dissolving the boundaries between formal and informal varieties of English, we have also eliminated from our dialects certain distinctions kept alive by elaborate rules of etiquette designed to preserve the them- and-us mentality. Take, for instance, the modal verb shall. When invited to a party, the well-spoken Englishman assured his host, "I shall be there." This was taken as a promise; the speaker was now under obligation to attend. The American throughout the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries might have said, "I'll be there." This was a statement of intent, but not a promise by any means. At the end of the twentieth century, we are saying, "I'll try to make it," often insincerely. Mark Halpern: Why Linguists Are Not to Be Trusted on Language Usage - With Some Afterthoughts Of the many attempts that have been made to regulate language usage one way or another, some have succeeded, some failed. And we do not know, even now, why some succeeded and others did not; are we to take it on faith that the ones that succeeded were somehow in accordance with language's inherent nature, and the others were somehow not? Nunberg and his allies have no scientific standing in their quarrel with a Simon or a Safire; if they disagree with such prescriptivists, they do so not as scientists observing from above the fray, distinguished by superior knowledge and disinterestedness, but simply as fellow gladiators down in the arena, as biased and opinionated as their adversaries. Tracy Lee Simmons: Getting the Words Right Hard work makes superior writing achievable; tenacity counts for more than talent. The good news is that people exist who can do the teaching required to bring it about. The bad news is that they're rarely to be found teaching writing courses in schools, colleges, and universities. Ken Bresler: Playing the Synonym Game The Boston Globe published an article on October 1, 20, about a pumpkin- growing contest. The writer and editors should have faced facts: if you're going to write about a pumpkin-growing contest, you're going to use the word pumpkin a lot. Pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin. Get used to it. But no. The very first paragraph - before any reader could possibly be bored with the word pumpkin - refers to "the huge, orange produce item." Do you think that anyone goes home a few days before Halloween and calls out, "Honey! Kids! Time to carve the orange produce item"? Julian Burnside: Obscene Words Fuck is an interesting word, linguistically speaking. It has the virtues of brevity, adaptability, expressiveness, and is understood universally. It has a huge number of synonyms, ranging from coy euphemisms to acceptable jocular equivalents to coarse vulgarities. Peter Corey: How Linguistics Killed Grammar My claim in this essay is that linguistics has effectively killed humanistic grammar, especially as a subject in the public schools, though also as a topic worthy of serious discussion in public discourse. Linguists perceive themselves (and are generally perceived by others) as "scientists," whether or not they deserve that label. Humanist grammarians are perceived as "language mavens," to borrow a phrase from linguist Steven Pinker. Yet, if linguists really are scientists, they spend an awful lot of time writing essays, books, and reviews that are hostile to the positions of humanist grammar on various issues. Many books on linguistics, from those meant for general readers to those meant for serious students, contain disclaimers, often hostile, in which the authors dissociate themselves from any taint of humanistic grammar. Orin Hargraves: Who Owns English We are now only a few years away from the day when native speakers of English are outnumbered by those for whom English is a second language. Imagine a conversation between two such people: when a pronoun fails to decline and there is no native speaker there to hear it, does it make a difference? The days of prestige and dominance for all "branded" dialects of English may be numbered, since the chief demand placed on English in this century will be its ability to adapt to the needs of the millions of speakers who use it, without regard to national boundaries and the preferences of those who would assert ownership over the ways it develops. jjoan ttaber: Singular They: The Pronoun That Came in from the Cold During the late eighteenth century, people began to strive for better living conditions; and one way to realize this goal was to become formally educated, which meant the upwardly mobile were obliged to copy the language of the moneyed classes. Since the grammarians of the day had succeeded in convincing educators that Latinate English was preferable to the English everyone was already speaking and writing, they felt it their duty to write new grammar texts, and publishing houses were happy to churn them out. Huge profits were realized each time a new text hit the bookstands, and so grammarians had to raise the bar each time they sat down to write a new how- to grammar book. Bert Stern: A Little Poem Bert Stern: Sail Away Laura Cherry: Cab Ride to Logan Laura Cherry: Settlement Ernest Hilbert: A Writer's Life Ernest Hilbert: Temptation of St. Anthony (Detail of Demons) PART THE FOURTH - ODDITIES David Carkeet: Titanic Blunders There is much else in Titanic that was unthinkable in 1912 - and unspeakable: Rose tells the witty, socially versatile Jack Dawson that after dinner the first-class male passengers retire to smoke cigars and "congratulate each other on being masters of the universe." This phrase, masters of the universe, derives from a toy and children's TV series of the 1980s. Darren Crovitz: The Secret Nature of Nicknames Perhaps the first rule of nicknaming is the axiom that the person being nicknamed has little choice in the matter. This might sound odd in today's world of shameless image manipulation, where children mimic pop stars and celebrities in redefining themselves at will, where what one appears to be is more important than what one is. Music and sports stars in particular have a singular authority in nicknaming themselves. Richard Lederer: Politicians Incorrect Politicians have been riddled by riddles: What's a politician? A man who will double-cross that bridge when he comes to it. How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving. What do politicians and diapers have in common? They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason. What's the difference between a centaur and a senator? One is half man and half horse's ass - and the other is a creature in mythology. Rohit Gupta: The Pen Is Mightier Than MSWord Writing is an externalization of our thoughts; today, after the thoughts appear in a writer's mind, "many things happen between the cup and the lip." The interface between our thoughts and how they appear on paper is changing fast. It should interest us whether this interface plays havoc with our thoughts or inspires thoughts, whether it urges us to a flight of imagination or binds us to the ground with its nonessential gadgetry. Clark Elder Morrow: Mr. Goldentongue This bewailing led me to imagine what it might be like if - against every conceivable odd - somewhere in our great nation a politician arose who harbored ambitions of a Longinian nature: a man who aspired to the Augustan, to the well-rounded period, the balanced antithetical style of Gibbon and Reynolds, as well as to the elevated but trenchant ton of Pitt and Disraeli. Christopher Orlet: The Last Words With few exceptions, the last words of history's great players have been about as interesting and uplifting as a phone book. We may expect pearls of profundity and motivational aphorism from our expiring artists, philosophers, and world leaders, but more often we are left with dry-as- dust clichés. But is it fair to expect deep insights into life's mysteries when the dying clearly have other things on their mind - hell, for instance, or unspeakable pain? Fred Moramarco: Takes on Shakes - 6 Fred Moramarco: Takes on Shakes - 17 Sarah Skwire: Church-Going Sarah Skwire: The Thing with Feathers Matt Hart: Knock Knock Knock Matt Hart: Interior Decoration Committee Lauren Rile Smith: New York Lauren Rile Smith: Shadow Afterword: Ask Fiske Credits Biographical Notes You can order Vocabula Bound from Vocabula: http://www.vocabula.com/VRorder.asp Or the publisher: http://www.marionstreetpress.com/vbhome.html Or Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /0972993762/qid=1094658886/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/103-0876998-2204661? v=glance&s=books Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com/ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 _________________________ Two Vocabula Books: The Dictionary of Disagreeable English http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp "However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this lovely, sour, virtuous book." — Wall Street Journal Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in The Vocabula Review over the last few years From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jan 9 18:51:59 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:51:59 -0600 Subject: FW: Becky Mercuri's book(s) on sandwiches Message-ID: In a 12.28/2004 ads-l message I asked if Rebecca Mercuri could tell us about her recent book on sandwiches; In particular, might some of its information be of interest to ads-l? Below my signoff is a message she sent me today. Gerald Cohen * * * * * Mr. Cohen, thank you so much for your inquiry. I apologize for the delayed response. My latest book, American Sandwich, was released in November 2004 by Gibbs Smith, Publisher. It's a follow-on book, requested by the publisher, as a result of my work Sandwiches That You Will Like, the sandwich history and cookbook written as a companion to the PBS show of the same name. Both books feature many famous American sandwiches as well as references to the origins of the names of those sandwiches. Much of the information I presented was due, in no small part, to the work of Barry Popik, and he is prominently acknowledged in my book. As I also state in the book, until relatively recently, little information on food history and American foodways was recorded - at least to the extent many of us who write about food would like to see. Barry's research has uncovered an enormous amount of new information, and I have no doubt that Barry and others will find even more information as new resources are made available and more easily accessible. Meanwhile, many of the old urban legends about the creation of particular sandwiches have been debunked or clarified. Although I present many new sandwiches created by innovative cooks, chefs, and sandwich shop proprietors across the country, I've included numerous old favorites that have a rich history behind them. Unfortunately, the number of sandwiches presented was not all-inclusive due to space limitations. I did my best to include the latest information available right up to my deadline. In many cases, I think you'll find leads for further research, and I have no doubt that Barry and others will find much more data as resources expand. The following is a rather long list of sandwiches that have interesting histories behind them - I'm hoping that further information will come to light as more people become interested in the rich history behind American foodways. It must be noted that in many cases, there is still no definitive information on the origin of the sandwich (or it's major ingredient), the year in which it was introduced, or there is still more than claim or one theory about that origin. Others seems to be well defined. Navajo Tacos (Southwest) French Dip (California) Denver (Western) Sandwich Cobb Salad (and Sandwich) Cuban Sandwich (Florida) Pimiento Cheese (Sandwich) Chicago Italian Beef Midwestern Pork Tenderloin Loosemeat Sandwich (Midwest) The Hot Brown (KY) Muffaletta (New Orleans) Lobster Roll (New England) Southern Maryland Stuffed Ham Bahn Mi Michigan Pasties St. Paul Sandwich (from St. Louis, MO) Cheese (or Tuna) Frenchie (Nebraska) New Jersey "Taylor Ham" Reuben Fleischkuechle (North Dakota) (different than the krautranzen of NE and bierocks of KS) Philly Cheese Steak Shrimp Burgers (those in SC vary greatly from those in NC) Chicken Fried Steak (Sandwich) Pepperoni Rolls (West Virginia) Sheboygan Brats (Wisconsin) Thank you again for your interest. Becky Mercuri From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 9 19:14:38 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:14:38 -0800 Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea In-Reply-To: <1105280362.32554.212323336@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:19 AM, Paul Frank wrote: > ...Actually, it's often transliterated as doufu, because that's what > it's > called in Chinese (in the pinyin transliteration). Tofu is Japanese. > It's too bad that "bean curd" has been replaced by "tofu." in addition to looking for "stinky/smelly tofu/doufu/bean curd", word detectives might want to look under the more refined variant "fermented tofu/..." arnold From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 21:23:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:23:32 -0500 Subject: "neon" - color in fashion (1934) Message-ID: * neon, a. 'of or resembling a neon light, esp. in being brilliantly coloured; bright, gaudy, glowing' (OED3 1961) -- in fashion, apparently first used in "neon blue": 1934 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Oct. II8 (advt.) Jodelle's daring combination of black with civil war days sash and bow of neon blue velvet. 1935 _Los Angeles Times_ 20 Jul. II12 (advt.) Playsuits with action pleats in the sleeves, the back and the trouser legs -- made of that famous fugi silk that tubs and wears -- dark brown -- neon blue -- natural. 1935 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Aug 9. II10 (advt.) Velvet dinner dresses that have a versatile way of going other places! -- neon blue, black or dubonnet velvet. 1936 _Coshocton Tribune_ (Ohio) 22 Oct. 11 (advt.) Dress sketched is of crepe -- with wide front panel of Neon Blue -- the rest of the dress is black -- molded together with lacings. 1937 _Edwardsville Intelligencer_ (Illinois) 9 Nov. 3/1 The bridesmaid wore a floor length dress of neon blue transparent velvet with silver accessories and a silver coronet in her hair. -- generic use in fashion: 1938 _New York Times_ 10 Feb. 9 (advt.) Saks Fifth Avenue presents a fashion show ... featuring neon colors. 1938 _Chicago Tribune_ 10 Apr. A2 (advt.) All-silk pure dye triple sheer blouses ... Neon 7-color stripes. 1941 _New York Times_ 16 Oct. 8 (advt.) Neutral or neon wool dresses to illuminate dark coats. * neon-bright (OED3 1958) 1938 _Chicago Tribune_ 7 Feb. 18 (advt.) Pure dye crepes in over seventy-five colors that range from such deliciously delicate shades as ivory and cornsilk yellow to neon bright colors. 1940 _Los Angeles Times_ 1 Nov. 3 (advt.) Waltzing in marquisette, threaded with silver, swaying to a rumba in jersey, very covered-up, or candle-slim in crepe with a neon-bright panel. 1941 _New York Times_ 16 Oct. 8 (advt.) The neon-bright purple wool dress, buttoned (like a slim coat) with plastic chrysanthemums. 1941 _Los Angeles Times_ 2 Nov. IV5 (advt.) There and in our Wilshire shop you will find all the exciting 1942 resort fashions...the huge flower prints, the great swathes of neon-bright color everywhere. --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 9 21:31:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:31:24 -0800 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: The Drexels were a family at the pinnacle of Philadelphia society during the mauve decade. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: ''The Language of Flowers" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My partner and fellow slang researcher Susie Ford has read Scully's /The Scarlet Pansy/ in search of citations. While it may have been set in the late 19C/early 20C, there seems little doubt that the language used, while often representing an early or even first use of a given word, is that of 1920s/30s. For example 'swap spit', 'mantee', 'chichi', 'femme' (in this case an effeminate homosexual man) and 'brown', as one of several deliberately 'gay' names, e.g Elsie Dike, in this case as follows: 'There was an elegant Miss Drexel-B�tsch of Philadelphia; also there were the Brown-B�tsches of New Rochelle (very classy indeed), and a whole B�tsch-Fuchs family in New York'; the obvious 'butch' and 'fucks' aside, I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = excrement. As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for their own signaling requirements. Tomorrow she is going to check it again (it is in the British Library) and if anything of interest emerges, comment accordingly. Jonathon Green __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 23:04:50 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:04:50 EST Subject: Optimists and pessimists Message-ID: Aside from the quote about the glass that is half full/empty, there are several other optimist-pessimist provers. Two that come to mind: An optimist thinks this is the best of all perfect worlds. A pessimist is afraid that it is. (This one probably goes back a ways, possibly to Voltaire's time). [in Europe] the optimists are learning Russian and the pessimists are learning Chinese. (This one is obviously from the Cold War, and probably after the Sino-Soviet split, say the early 1960's.) A somewhat related proverb: "A cyniic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." - Jim Landau From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 23:09:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:09:04 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882) Message-ID: Antedatings for "me neither" from Newspaperarchive (OED3 has 1926): 1882 _Marion Daily Star_ (Ohio) 6 Feb. 2/2 "When I get out I'm not going to tamper with any more proverbs," remarked No. 2. "Me neither," responded No. 1. [from a story entitled "Too Much Proverb", from _Texas Siftings_] 1886 _Saint Joseph Herald_ (Michigan) 9 Oct. 1/5 "I don't think that he has very much." "Me neither." [from a story entitled "Lost All Ambition", from _Tid-Bits_] (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") --Ben Zimmer From ddr11 at UVIC.CA Mon Jan 10 00:10:41 2005 From: ddr11 at UVIC.CA (Dave Robertson) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:10:41 -0800 Subject: Query: 'high-tone', 'jawbone' and intransitive 'lay down' Message-ID: Hi, Can any of you help with early cites of 'high-tone' (='excellent' / 'fashionable'), 'jawbone' (='credit') and intransitive 'lay down'? (The latter being dialectal for the prescriptive 'lie down'.) I am specifically interested in their use in interior British Columbia about a century ago, but any information would be useful. Thanks, Dave Robertson PhD student Department of Linguistics / Centre for Studies in Religion & Society University of Victoria, BC, Canada (250) 721-4819 home / (250) 721-6342 office (250) 472-4665 fax listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/chinook.html From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jan 10 00:16:39 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:16:39 -0600 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer wrote (Jan. 9, 2005): > (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") > Ah, another blend: "Nor I" + "Me neither." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 01:12:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:12:39 -0500 Subject: Tofu (1873, 1874); WOTY articles Message-ID: TOFU � STINKY TOFU--9.950 Google hits, 223 Google Groups hitsSMELLY TOFU--3,470 Google hits, 57 Google Groups hits FERMENTED TOFU--2,130 Google hits, 147 Google Groups hits � Yes, "doufu." Here's the OED entry. Merriam-Webster has 1771. � � (OED) tofu [a. Jap. tofu, ad. Chinese dòufu, f. dòu beans + f rotten.] A curd made in Japan and China from mashed soya beans; bean curd. 1880 Trans. Asiatic Soc. Japan VIII. 399 Tôfu is made by pounding the soy beans after soaking in water. 1905 Bull. U.S. Dept. Agric. CLIX. 46 The larger part of the leguminous food in the Japanese diet consists of the preparations of soy beans, such as miso, shoyu and tofu. 1934 BLUNDEN Mind's Eye 109 Two hawks have raided the tofu. 1936 K. TEZUKA Jap. Food 28 Tfu (bean-curd) is made by soaking soy beans in water, mashing them, straining the mass through cloth and solidifying with the addition of magnesium chloride. 1979 Sunset Apr. 214/2 Arrange all tofu strips in the casserole and cover with � of the cheese. 1981 Guardian 14 Aug. 7/1 In the United States,..tofu has become an ‘in’ food. ... ... (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) INSIDE JAPAN. W E GRIFFIS. Lippincott's Magazine of Popular Literature and Science (1871-1885). Philadelphia: Aug 1873. Vol. 12; p. 174 (8 pages) Page 180: In a third are boiled buckwheat cakes or dumplings, and _tofu_ or bean-curd. ... JAPANESE FOX-MYTHS. WILLIAM E GRIFFIS. Lippincott's Magazine of Popular Literature and Science (1871-1885). Philadelphia: Jan 1874. Vol. 13; p. 57 (8 pages) Page 62: Among the lowest and most ignorant clases the feeding ofthe live fox at night with _tofu_ (bean cheese) fried in oil is thought to please Inari and ward off threatened evils from his messenger foxes. � -------------------------------------------------------------- RED STATE, BLUE STATE � � Too bad the "early line" prevailed. The word "tsunami" is on the cover of TIME, NEWSWEEK, and PEOPLE this week, but those 120,000+ deaths will surely be forgotten by January 2006. It would have been our first "loan-word WOTY." ... ... ... (NEXIS) The Associated Press State & Local Wire These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press January 9, 2005, Sunday, BC cycle 2:51 PM Eastern Time SECTION: State and Regional LENGTH: 353 words HEADLINE: "Red state, blue state, purple state" voted top phrase 2004 DATELINE: OAKLAND, Calif. BODY: "Red state, blue state, purple state" was deemed the phrase that most colored the nation's lexicon in 2004, a panel of linguists determined Friday. For the 15th straight year, attendees at the annual convention of the Linguistic Society of America chose the word or phrase that dominated national discourse over the course of the last year. "It was the best candidate for word of the year," said Dennis Preston, a professor of linguistics at Michigan State University. "It engaged the American public for the entire year. Nothing showed the bloodthirsty population-engaging election as this." The phrase "red state, blue state, purple state" represents the American political map. The term defines red as favoring Republicans, blue as favoring Democrats and purple showing swing or undecided states. Words or phrases didn't need to be brand new or even well-known to get a nomination. In fact, there was one on the list - "luanqibaozhao," which is Chinese for a complicated mess - that was not even pronounceable by the contest organizers. While the contest was considered very serious by the thousand or so conference attendees, there was plenty of joking to be found. Preston made a pitch for the term "lawn mullet," which describes a lawn that is neatly mowed in the front but unmowed in the back, as a candidate for the Most Creative category. Other top word or phrases of 2004 were: flip-flopper, a politician who changes political stances; meet-up, a local special interest meeting organized though a national Web site; mash-up, a blend of two songs or albums into a single cohesive musical work; and wardrobe malfunction, an unanticipated exposure of bodily parts. The term was coined when viewers saw singer Janet Jackson's breast during the Super Bowl halftime show. "Metrosexual," defined as a heterosexual male who has pristine taste, grooming and hygiene, was the top vote getter in 2003. The contest is sponsored annually by the American Dialect Society. --- On the Net: Linguistic Society of America: www.lsadc.org American Dialect Society: www.americandialect.org LOAD-DATE: January 9, 2005 ... ... ... http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/10497835.htm?1c This year, we blaused to TiVo a wardrobe malfunction What's the good word for '04? Linguists vote. By Amy S. Rosenberg Inquirer Staff Writer Are you a technosexual? Do you TiVo? Do you blog so much you need a blause? Are you John Kerry and did you approve this message? As the annual word-of-the-year showdown approaches, these are the questions - or at least the phrases - that consume the linguists of our land, a place that in 2004 was incessantly described as composed of red states and blue states. The year's new words reflect the dichotomy of the times, from the ridiculous to the somber. Janet Jackson experienced her dubious wardrobe malfunction. Soldiers in Iraq complained of having to up-armor their humvees by scrounging for scrap-metal hillbilly armor. And in the land of purple - defined either as a swing/battleground state or the more ephemeral state of everyone putting aside their red-and-blue differences - people were inundated with what linguist Wayne Glowka calls "the proclaimer." By Election Day, even 7-year-olds could sarcastically bark back to the TV: "Yes. You are John Kerry/George W. Bush. And you do approve this message." "Now that's got to be the phrase of the year," wrote Glowka, chair of the American Dialect Society's New Words Committee, in an e-mail that contained his nominations for the society's word of the year. The group will vote Jan. 7. But the early line seems to favor red state/blue state - shorthand for the country's cultural and political divide - or its purple state corollary. Clearly, it was a year in which both headlines and language were dominated by politics and war. � (...) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jan 10 03:15:59 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:15:59 -0500 Subject: moustache--(Why a moustache was likened to a baseball team) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gerald Cohen writes: > On Dec. 13, 2004 Bill Mullins sent an ads-l message wondering how >"miniature baseball nines" could mean "moustache" in a 1929 high-school >yearbook. [See item below my signoff.] > > It just occurred to me that the answer is obvious: > The writer twice refers to the moustache making "the hit" with the >girls. Baseball teams make hits. Ergo,... > > Q.E.D., case closed. It's Miller time. ~~~~~~~~ Considering the age of the "men" in question, it could just be a mean allusion to the sparseness of the mustaches: nine whiskers on each side. A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 05:06:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:06:41 EST Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth Message-ID: The NYPL was open again Sunday (1-5:45 p.m.), but I didn't get there early enough to do much. I have SCARLET PANSY on reserve. ... The book mentioned here is A SCARLET PANSY (New York: W. Faro 1933) by Robert Scully. The publisher is interesting. Another 1933 "W. Faro" book is the famous ANECDOTA AMERICANA: FIVE HUNDRED STORIES FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE FIVE HUNDRED NATIONS THAT COMPRISE AMERICA. ... Other titles: ... STONE WALLS DO NOT: THE CHRONICLE OF A CAPTIVITY (1930) by Samuel Roth LADY CHATTERLY'S LOVER: A DRAMATIZATION OF HIS VERSION OF D. H. LAWRENCE'S NOVEL (1931) by Samuel Roth THE INTIMATE JOURNAL OF RUDOLPH VALENTINO (1931) BODY: A NEW STUDY, IN NARRATIVE, OF THE ANATOMY OF SOCIETY (1931) by Daniel Quilter A GENTLEMAN IN A BLACK SKIN (1932) by Donna McKay WOMAN'S DOCTOR (1933) by Dr. Walter Lennox. CELESTINE, BEING THE DIARY OF A CHAMBERMAID (1933) by Octave Mirbeau A YOUNG MAN ABOUT TO COMMIT SUICIDE (1932) by Anthony Gudaitis MY HEART IN MY THROAT: THE STORY OF A STRANGE CAPTIVITY (1932) by Lydia Lindgren WARREN GAMALIEL:HARDING (1932) by Clement Wood CIRCULATION: AN UNCENSORED STORY OF A NEWSPAPER OFFICE (1932) by Mary Lee Dutcher THE GREAT LINDBERGH HULLABALOO: AN UNORTHODOX ACCOUNT (1932) by Laura Vitray ... Most of the books appear to be written by publisher Samuel Roth (1893-1974) and Clement Wood (1888-1950). Is anyone familiar with Wood's slang work? Did Roth influence the word "gay"? Roth edited these magazines: ... Title Beau : the man's magazine : devoted to the comforts and luxuries of living / edited by Samuel Roth. Imprint New York : The Beau Pub. Co., 1926-1927. ... Title Two worlds. Imprint New York : Two Worlds Pub. Co., c1925- Location Humanities-Genrl Res Vol./date Vol. 1, no. 1 (Sept. 1925)- Descript 2 v. : ill. ; 27 cm. Frequency Quarterly Note Ceased with v. 2, no. 8 (June 1927). "A literary quarterly devoted to the increase of the gaiety of nations." Title from cover. Edited by Samuel Roth; contributing editors: Arthur Symons, Ezra Pound, Ford Madox Hueffer. Also issued in reprint ed. and on microfiche. Published concurrently in 1926-1927 with Two worlds monthly, also edited by Samuel Roth. ... ... Clement Wood published: Title A Dictionary of American slang / Clement Wood and Gloria Goddard. Imprint Girard, Kan. : Haldeman-Julius Co., c1926. Location Humanities-Genrl Res Descript 64 p. ; 13 cm. ... Author _Wood, Clement, 1888-1950._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aWood,+Clement,+1888-1950./awood+clement+1888-1950/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title Sexual relations in the Southern States. Imprint Girard, Kan., Haldeman-Julius Publications [c1929] ... ... (GOOGLE) _Tomfolio.com: Erotica (no viewable graphics): Erotic Literature_ (http://www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889) ... This version is called a Samuel Roth edition as originally published by William Faro, Inc. The copyright page states revised 1930 by William Faro, Inc. ... www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889 - 41k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qW9Z_JZVuSIJ:www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889+"samuel +roth"+faro&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889) ... _Highlights from the collections - Archive Awareness month - The ..._ (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html) ... volume is actually a set of printed sheets of an expurgated piracy of the novel, prepared by Samuel Roth and published under the imprint of William Faro in 1930 ... www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/ online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html - 19k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EdxfTilhYEgJ:www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html) ... _TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Thick Blue Volume -- Dec. 28 ..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html) ... Hamill took his manuscript to a notorious Samuel Roth who, under the name of William Faro Inc., specialized in smutty publications. ... www.time.com/time/archive/ preview/0,10987,753208,00.html - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.time.co m/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html) ... _The Private Life of Frank Harris_ (http://www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=sr_bio) ... "William Faro" was Samuel Roth himself. Back to list of books These pages are the fruit of harmless drudgery by Alfred Armstrong: alfred at oddbooks.co.uk www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=sr_bio - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:t_ZqPMJprcEJ:www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition .php3?book_key=sr_bio+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.oddbooks .co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=sr_bio) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Jewish influence in the mass media II_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_frm/thread/26f9d3035ad77a86/d8c31b9a1393dbb8?q="samuel+r oth"+faro&_done=/groups?q="samuel+roth"+faro&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N& tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#d8c31b9a1393dbb8) ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons. ... J., 2000, p. 31] Jewish erotica book publishers included William Faro, Panurge, Falstaff ... _soc.culture.usa_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa) - Jan 15 2002, 1:04 pm by M.T.T. ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons. Although some might portray him as a free speech hero, he pirated editions of both James Joyce's Ulysses and D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterly's Lover, to the protest of both the Joyce and Lawrence estates. Imprisoned twice, 1937-1939 and 1957-61, Roth was labeled "the dirtiest pig in the world" and "the louse of Lewisburg [prison]" [GERTZMAN, J., 2000, p. 219] Roth in 1936 "received the most severe prison sentence possible under the law for brazenly using the Postal Service to distribute flagrantly obscene books ... Roth was the most often incarcerated, the most feckless, and quite likely the most resourceful booklegger of his time, challenging moral and legal authorities with a quixotic bravado." [GERTZMAN, J., 1999, p. 22] (...) Sam Roth's grandson is none other than Prof. James Kugel, the eminent Bible scholar at Harvard University. ... ... _http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/0 2397916.htm_ (http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/02397916.htm) ROTH IS A GREAT American icon of perversity. He was a successful entrepreneur who took enormous pride in the fact that he always worked for himself — peddling pornography. He was a self-taught man, and used his skills to write tawdry erotica. (...) His first magazine, Beau, a sophisticated precursor to Esquire, attracted attention. But it was his second, Two Worlds, in which he serialized sections of Joyce’s Ulysses, that got him in trouble. (...) IT’S NO SURPRISE that Samuel Roth’s story is now mostly lost. Except for occasional footnote references in works on the history of censorship and coverage in Jay A. Gertzman’s superlative book Bookleggers and Smuthounds: The Trade in Erotica 1920-1940 (University of Pennsylvania, 1999), Roth is not remembered at all. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 05:18:20 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:18:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20''The=20Language=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?of=20Flowers"?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/05 1:31:33 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = > excrement. > > As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a > reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the > handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and > Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was > already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for > their own signaling requirements. > Jewish men are mentioned several times in the novel, but always very much as the OTHER. There are no other hints of Yiddish in the book that I can see. But, given the nature of the bawdy puns in the book, I certain wouldn't rule out DREXEL < DRECK = 'excrement' -- except that the author does not generally take such pains to disguise her puns -- I would have expected DREQUE-BEACH rather than DREXEL-BEACH if that was what she meant. > I don't know what you mean by "Victoriana." Can you explain that more > fully? I didn't mean to suggest that I thought the "language of flowers" "was > already in place in other contexts"--on the contrary, it seems in the context of > the book to refer indeed to something that gay men made up. I also did not > mean to imply any direct historical connection with the handkerchief semiotic, > which was more a convenience than a secret code. > I certainly agree that the language of the book appears to be much more 1025 or 1930 than 1910, despite its setting. > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 10 05:29:48 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:29:48 -0800 Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth In-Reply-To: <1b9.a83f74d.2f136761@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Barry Popik wrote: > ... > Most of the books appear to be written by publisher Samuel Roth > (1893-1974) > and Clement Wood (1888-1950). Is anyone familiar with Wood's slang > work? no, but he was the compiler of rhyming dictionaries, at least one of which is still in print. arnold From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 05:43:32 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:43:32 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20''The=20Language=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?of=20Flowers"?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/05 7:47:53 AM, slangman at PACBELL.NET writes: > Without knowing the context, is it possible that Scully was simply > referring to the Victorian "language of flowers," in which each flower > represented a certain sentiment or emotion?  There were any number of > books and postcards in the era depicting the "language."  An article > from the Collier's Cyclopedia of Commerial and Social Information (1882) > on the language of flowers is reproduced at > http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/hilda/flang.html. > > Tom Dalzell > Yes, but these "girls" don't seem to be too much into Victorian literature--and less so would have been the Irish policemen and sailors they are trying to signal their sexual availability. The idea was to somehow let the guys know that the gay guys were looking for "straight" guys they could take to bars, buy a few drinks, and then go off and have sex for which the straight guys would get paid a few dollars. They refer to the guys they are trying to attract in this way as "trade." Of course, maybe Fay is making an ironic, sardonic reference to Victorian etiquette books, but if so it is far from clear that that is what she is doing. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 10 06:06:51 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:06:51 -0500 Subject: moustache--(Why a moustache was likened to a baseball team) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Gerald Cohen writes: > > On Dec. 13, 2004 Bill Mullins sent an ads-l message wondering how > >"miniature baseball nines" could mean "moustache" in a 1929 high-school > >yearbook. [See item below my signoff.] > > > > It just occurred to me that the answer is obvious: > > The writer twice refers to the moustache making "the hit" with the > >girls. Baseball teams make hits. Ergo,... > > > > Q.E.D., case closed. It's Miller time. > ~~~~~~~~ >Considering the age of the "men" in question, it could just be a mean >allusion to the sparseness of the mustaches: nine whiskers on each side. >A. Murie This was/is my speculation too (more or less): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0412B&L=ads-l&P=R15551 I think Gerald Cohen's interpretation is a possibility also (although not entirely natural and surely not by any means obvious or certain IMHO). Anyway, I was convinced enough to have a Miller or two. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 09:07:24 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:07:24 EST Subject: Composed salad (1972) Message-ID: COMPOSED SALAD--973 Google hits, 40 Google Groups hits (Not in the OED, "miserable on food") ... Before choosing Vincent's yesterday, I was thinking of eating at Tai, 223 Mulberry Street (_www.velvetnyc.com_ (http://www.velvetnyc.com) ). However, it seemed to be less of a Thai restaurant than a dark bar or lounge. ... On the Tai menu was a "Composed Salad" ($7.50) of "Grilled calamari, calamata olives, oven roasted tomatoes, chick pea vinaigrette." ... Composed? Who is doing the cooking, Julia Child or Beethoven? Waiter! I ordered this "composed salad" _mezzo forte_, and it's _pianissimo_! Take it back! ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Composed Salad - Food Edviser - Glossary_ (http://www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) ... Composed Salad A type of salad prepared with a number of ingredients that are all arranged neatly and symmetrically on the plate instead of being tossed ... www.hormel.com/kitchen/ glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid= - 32k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:AbLPhZc0uDcJ:www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossar y.asp?id=35334&catitemid=+"composed+salad"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.hormel .com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) ... Composed Salad A type of salad prepared with a number of ingredients that are all arranged neatly and symmetrically on the plate instead of being tossed together. A salad dressing or vinaigrette may be drizzled on the plate or served on the side. .. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) .. _Herald Times Reporter _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2kpln47ZeTPYAlHWqojge+xmNeBQ+dInfkIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 18, 1975 _Manitowoc,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:manitowoc+composed+salad+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+composed+salad+AND) ...Mrs. Sonntag reported on 'COMPOSED' SALAD For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-and-vinegar.. ... _Progress _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z1F8QY91aICKID/6NLMW2qZLL7ZL8HpeCEBOQhHz9PahXNpwPw0F90IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 13, 1975 _Clearfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:clearfield+composed+salad+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+composed+salad+AND) ...Old Town Road. Ph. 765-5559 For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-andvinegar.. ... _Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2o3PibWDe+uuTrWvFiNnM2zLz5bXEMWWiUIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, July 28, 1975 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...mother daughter aunt uncle. For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-and-vinegar.. ... ... _Lancaster Eagle Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=P9SpTvomPU+KID/6NLMW2k7QmxsDsBAetCSn2GMJshyd5XSGz6G6XQ==) Monday, August 27, 1962 _Lancaster,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lancaster+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...supper imaginable is a colorfully COMPOSED SALAD platter. Instead of the.....The perfect beverages to accompany the SALAD 'ter are summer's favorite thirst.. ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2ogVHRnzqIsEo5yzWX1bpU7ELsb4req9GkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 03, 1977 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+composed+salad+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+composed+salad+AND) ...and the most classic of all French COMPOSED SALAD Nicoise. which is as.....just what people think constitutes a SALAD. I grew up thinking of a SALAD as.. ... _Sheboygan Press _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2u9O0ybEIA24AVyrwoKjzYZBhCfh+54Bp0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, March 05, 1975 _Sheboygan,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+composed+salad+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+composed+salad+AND) ...before serving. 'Makes 16 buns. For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-and-vinegar.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2jgq7QkV3aNynLCUs3UZG3Tmb7+2MTDdd0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, March 12, 1975 _Lima,_ (http://www.ne wspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...you. It's cheaper than a stroke. SALAD COMPOSED For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-anti-vinegar.. _Hillsboro Press Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2loF60klG3BST1csYoEO0DIhSEivhtHJIkIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, February 24, 1976 _Hillsboro,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hillsboro+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...Wallis and Miss Stephanie Saylor. For "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-andvinegar.. _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2ogVHRnzqIsEP1PsAscd2/Saj2w4IZqFykIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, June 26, 1977 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+composed+salad+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+composed+salad+AND) ...and meat that the -French call SALADe COMPOSED SALAD. It's a pity people are.....potato SALAD and the ubiquitous chefs SALAD and cottage- cheese SALAD beloved.. ... _Frederick Post _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2hatIo/Zzq2kuwlIPxFkhYoKszbdquKXaw==) Thursday, June 12, 1980 _Frederick,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+composed+salad+AND) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+composed+salad+AND) ...of sunflower seeds. Use them in a "COMPOSED" SALAD. For example, sections.....seeds good to use: When you toss mixed SALAD greens with an oil-and vinegar.. ... _Great Bend Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2mOLO/P7hSPvvTdMou+TJjwfqvPWPBsf0UIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, March 11, 1975 _Great Bend,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:great_bend+composed+salad+AND) _Kansas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kansas+composed+salad+AND) ...2lst and Polk, west door. For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....presented. On Thursday a Joint Choir COMPOSED of members of area choirs will.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Salad or Centerpiece; Is It to Eat Or to Admire? Salad or Centerpiece _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=96401347&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst =PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105346312&clientId=65882) By William Rice. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 20, 1972. p. D1 (2 pages) ... First page: Composed salads are excellent at luncheons or can be employed as a dinner first course. One composed salad popular in Washington's French restaurants is _Salade Nicoise_. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SUNDAY?--El Cocotero, 228 West 18th Street, between 7th and 8th Avenues. It's a new Velenzuelan restaurant. I had "arepitas con nata: four bite crispy arepas, venezuelan sour cream," and "domino: refried black beans, shredded aged white cheese." ... It was more of a snack than a meal..."Arepa" is not in the OED, miserable as usual. ... ... _El Cocotero_ (http://www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area=3) ... El Cocotero. 228 West 18th Street; New York, NY 10011; 212-206-8930. View Menu. Features Venezuelan delicacies such as arepitas (mini arepas) in a dozen varieties ... www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_ client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area=3 - 9k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Z7Cuu-7q3RAJ:www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area=3+"el+cocotero"&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area =3) ... [PDF] _Arriba, aarepas!_ (http://www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf) File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - _View as HTML_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XXkJecjmiggJ:www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026 .pdf+"el+cocotero"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting our _text version_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XXkJecjmiggJ:www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf+"el+cocotero"&hl=en&ie=U TF-8) of this document. ... El Cocotero and Flor’s Kitchen offer a glimpse into Caracas. ... While El Cocotero and Flor’s Kitchen aren’t true areperas, I wouldn’t know any different. ... www.nyblade.com/advertising/ etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf) From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 10:50:27 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:50:27 -0800 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My article, "Out of the Hood and Into the News: Borrowed Black Verbal Expressions in a Mainstream Newspaper," (American Speech, Winter 1999, 74,4, pp.369-388) examines just this -- I found numerous examples of slang usage in otherwise Standard English, well-written articles, including editorials. "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote:Slang certainly *can* be used appropriately, even in seriously written, well-polished articles/newspaper editorials/etc. I've often noticed examples of this without bothering to jot down the information. Maybe I should start doing so now (others can join in) and sharing the information with ads-l. Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 12:41:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:41:23 -0800 Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth Message-ID: Wood & Goddard's Dictionary of American Slang (1926) is a booklet of secondary interest. HDAS cites it when appropriate. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:. ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The NYPL was open again Sunday (1-5:45 p.m.), but I didn't get there early =20 enough to do much. I have SCARLET PANSY on reserve. ... The book mentioned here is A SCARLET PANSY (New York: W. Faro 1933) by =20 Robert Scully. The publisher is interesting. Another 1933 "W. Faro" book is=20= the =20 famous ANECDOTA AMERICANA: FIVE HUNDRED STORIES FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE FIV= E =20 HUNDRED NATIONS THAT COMPRISE AMERICA. ... Other titles: ... =20 STONE WALLS DO NOT: THE CHRONICLE OF A CAPTIVITY (1930) by Samuel Roth LADY CHATTERLY'S LOVER: A DRAMATIZATION OF HIS VERSION OF D. H. LAWRENCE'S=20 NOVEL (1931) by Samuel Roth =20 THE INTIMATE JOURNAL OF RUDOLPH VALENTINO (1931) BODY: A NEW STUDY, IN NARRATIVE, OF THE ANATOMY OF SOCIETY (1931) by Daniel=20= =20 Quilter A GENTLEMAN IN A BLACK SKIN (1932) by Donna McKay WOMAN'S DOCTOR (1933) by Dr. Walter Lennox. CELESTINE, BEING THE DIARY OF A CHAMBERMAID (1933) by Octave Mirbeau A YOUNG MAN ABOUT TO COMMIT SUICIDE (1932) by Anthony Gudaitis MY HEART IN MY THROAT: THE STORY OF A STRANGE CAPTIVITY (1932) by Lydia =20 Lindgren WARREN GAMALIEL:HARDING (1932) by Clement Wood CIRCULATION: AN UNCENSORED STORY OF A NEWSPAPER OFFICE (1932) by Mary Lee =20 Dutcher THE GREAT LINDBERGH HULLABALOO: AN UNORTHODOX ACCOUNT (1932) by Laura Vitra= y ... Most of the books appear to be written by publisher Samuel Roth (1893-1974)=20= =20 and Clement Wood (1888-1950). Is anyone familiar with Wood's slang work? Did= =20 Roth influence the word "gay"? Roth edited these magazines: ... Title Beau : the man's magazine : devoted to the comforts and luxuries=20 of living / edited by Samuel Roth. Imprint New York : The Beau Pub. Co.,=20 1926-1927. ... Title Two worlds. Imprint =20 New York : Two Worlds Pub. Co., c1925- Location Humanities-Genrl Res Vol./date Vol. 1, no. 1 (Sept. 1925)- =20 Descript 2 v. : ill. ; 27 cm. Frequency Quarterly Note Ceased with v. 2, n= o. 8=20 (June 1927). "A literary quarterly devoted to the increase of the gaiety o= f =20 nations." Title from cover. Edited by Samuel Roth; contributing editors:= =20 Arthur Symons, Ezra Pound, Ford Madox Hueffer. Also issued in reprint ed.= =20 and on microfiche. =20 Published concurrently in 1926-1927 with Two worlds monthly, also edited by= =20 Samuel Roth. ... ... Clement Wood published: =20 Title A Dictionary of American slang / Clement Wood and Gloria Goddard.= =20 Imprint =20 Girard, Kan. : Haldeman-Julius Co., c1926. Location Humanities-Genrl Res Descript 64 p. ; 13 cm. =20 ... =20 Author _Wood, Clement, 1888-1950._=20 (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aWood,+Clement,+1888-1950./awood+clement+1888= -1950/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title Sexual=20 relations in the Southern States. Imprint =20 Girard, Kan., Haldeman-Julius Publications [c1929] ... ... =20 (GOOGLE) =20 _Tomfolio.com: Erotica (no viewable graphics): Erotic Literature_=20 (http://www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=3D889)=20 ... This version is called a Samuel Roth edition as originally published by= =20 William Faro, Inc. The copyright page states revised 1930 by William Faro, Inc. ...= =20 www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=3D889 - 41k - _Cached_=20 (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:qW9Z_JZVuSIJ:www.tomfolio.com/bookss= ub.asp?subid=3D889+"samuel +roth"+faro&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=3D889)=20 =20 ... =20 _Highlights from the collections - Archive Awareness month - The ..._=20 (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html)=20 ... volume is actually a set of printed sheets of an expurgated piracy of=20 the novel, prepared by Samuel Roth and published under the imprint of William Faro in= =20 1930 ...=20 www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/ online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html - 19k -=20 _Cached_=20 (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:EdxfTilhYEgJ:www.nottingham.ac.uk/ms= s/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF= -8) =20 - _Similar pages_=20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html) =20 ... =20 _TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Thick Blue Volume -- Dec. 28 ..._=20 (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html)=20 ... Hamill took his manuscript to a notorious Samuel Roth who, under the =20 name of William Faro Inc., specialized in smutty publications. ...=20 www.time.com/time/archive/ preview/0,10987,753208,00.html - _Similar pages_= =20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.time.co m/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html) =20 ... =20 _The Private Life of Frank Harris_=20 (http://www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio)=20 ... "William Faro" was Samuel Roth himself. Back to list of books These=20 pages are the fruit of harmless drudgery by Alfred Armstrong: alfred at oddbooks.co.uk=20 www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio - 4k - _Cached_=20 (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:t_ZqPMJprcEJ:www.oddbooks.co.uk/harr= is/edition .php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar p= ages_=20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.oddbooks .co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio) =20 ...=20 ...=20 (GOOGLE GROUPS)=20 ...=20 _Jewish influence in the mass media II_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_frm/thread/26f9d= 3035ad77a86/d8c31b9a1393dbb8?q=3D"samuel+r oth"+faro&_done=3D/groups?q=3D"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2= coff=3D1&sa=3DN& tab=3Dwg&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#d8c31b9a1393dbb8) =20 ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons. ..= .=20 J., 2000, p. 31] Jewish erotica book publishers included William Faro, Panurge, Falstaff= =20 ... =20 _soc.culture.usa_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa) -=20 Jan 15 2002, 1:04 pm by M.T.T.=20 ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons.=20 Although some might portray him as a free speech hero, he pirated editions of both=20 James Joyce's Ulysses and D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterly's Lover, to the protest= =20 of both the Joyce and Lawrence estates. Imprisoned twice, 1937-1939 and 1957-61,=20 Roth was labeled "the dirtiest pig in the world" and "the louse of Lewisburg [prison= ]" [GERTZMAN, J., 2000, p. 219] Roth in 1936 "received the most severe prison=20 sentence possible under the law for brazenly using the Postal Service to distribute flagrantly obscene books ... Roth was the most often incarcerated, the most feckless, and quite likely the most resourceful booklegger of his time, =20 challenging moral and legal authorities with a quixotic bravado." [GERTZMAN, J., 1999,=20 p. 22] (...) Sam Roth's grandson is none other than Prof. James Kugel, the eminent =20 Bible scholar at Harvard University. =20 ... ... _http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents= /0 2397916.htm_=20 (http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents= /02397916.htm)=20 ROTH IS A GREAT American icon of perversity. He was a successful =20 entrepreneur who took enormous pride in the fact that he always worked for =20= himself =E2=80=94=20 peddling pornography. He was a self-taught man, and used his skills to writ= e=20 tawdry erotica. (...) His first magazine, Beau, a sophisticated precursor to Esquire, attracted=20 attention. But it was his second, Two Worlds, in which he serialized sectio= ns=20 of Joyce=E2=80=99s Ulysses, that got him in trouble. (...) IT=E2=80=99S NO SURPRISE that Samuel Roth=E2=80=99s story is now mostly lost= . Except for =20 occasional footnote references in works on the history of censorship and =20 coverage in Jay A. Gertzman=E2=80=99s superlative book Bookleggers and Smuth= ounds: The=20 Trade in Erotica 1920-1940 (University of Pennsylvania, 1999), Roth is not=20 remembered at all. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 12:44:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:44:02 -0800 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: I think Jonathon Green's post is cited here. It's not mine, despite the attribution. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20''The=20Language=20? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?of=20Flowers"?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/9/05 1:31:33 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = > excrement. > > As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a > reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the > handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and > Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was > already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for > their own signaling requirements. > Jewish men are mentioned several times in the novel, but always very much as the OTHER. There are no other hints of Yiddish in the book that I can see. But, given the nature of the bawdy puns in the book, I certain wouldn't rule out DREXEL < DRECK = 'excrement' -- except that the author does not generally take such pains to disguise her puns -- I would have expected DREQUE-BEACH rather than DREXEL-BEACH if that was what she meant. > I don't know what you mean by "Victoriana." Can you explain that more > fully? I didn't mean to suggest that I thought the "language of flowers" "was > already in place in other contexts"--on the contrary, it seems in the context of > the book to refer indeed to something that gay men made up. I also did not > mean to imply any direct historical connection with the handkerchief semiotic, > which was more a convenience than a secret code. > I certainly agree that the language of the book appears to be much more 1025 or 1930 than 1910, despite its setting. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do? From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Jan 10 13:10:47 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:10:47 +0000 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: ''The Language of Flowers" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I think Jonathon Green's post is cited here. It's not mine, despite the attribution. > >JL > > > Indeed. I trust this is a one-off glitch. Thanks to JL for note in re the Drexels. Forgive my transatlantic ignorance/lousy memory. Nonetheless, I still feel that the tone of Scully's naming - as Ron Butters puts it, 'bawdy puns' - might still mean that we're getting 'two for one', both a dig at the Philadelphia Main Liners and the Yiddishism, given the regular association in slang of matters excretory and homosexuality What I meant by 'Victoriana' was simply a shorthand for 'something that originally pertained to the Victorian era'. JG From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 16:14:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:14:27 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: The OED has Gunsel in 1914 for one definition (catamite), and 1950 for another (the Elisha Cook Jr. type). This joke from N'Archive may be using the word as a proper name (as many cites from the era show up), but in context, it may be related to the slang word. Ohio | Newark | Newark Daily Advocate | 1896-06-18 p.5/4 "He Forgot to Mention It. Greene - Say, that shotgun I bought of yon blew into 10,000 pieces the first time I fired it off. I don't see how I ever got off alive. Gunsel - Oh, yes; I forgot to tell you. You have heard of those new disappear- ing guns the government is getting? Well, that was one of them. - Indianapolis Journal." From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Jan 10 16:06:17 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:06:17 -0500 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language In-Reply-To: <200501061124472.SM01680@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hi Gerald, I've got a sincere dilemma, sorry it's a little long. My Dad and Mom were hyper aware of language, and I was relentlessly tortured over it as I grew up. I was told not to use the words "like", "um", or drop the ing off off the end of words. I was aware of what they considered "sounded nice", what was "correct" and incorrect pronunciations, so that there would be no mistake that my speech would reflect an educated, cultured person whose spoken language represented "class". Some folks in my family will still pronounce tomato like to-mah-to. If I used slang in front of them it meant punishment, i'm not kidding, it was brutal. This is probably why i curse every other word no matter who i'm talking to, no matter where i am. I grew up knowing that there was going to be judgements made about a person from the words they used and how they were pronounced, and that this would matter for navigating everything in life. I was taught - that what i found in a dictionary was correct, these were standard english words, the language of commerce, and culture and the only ones worth knowing. I can assure you I was taught that "culture" wasn't considered something important when it came from the street, ex: street fashion, music, language What was going on here was who shared a common value system, exactly who is and who is not considered a cultured, educated person. Knowing what was correct showed that you cared about the education, (in the classical sense) that an education was the most important goal. This was the only goal that reflected well on you, not how much money you made, or how famous you were. What you contributed to the world was the goal. John Simon like my parents would probably think that . . slang comes from the lower class, but they would have thought the study of language a scholarly activity. They would not however think that just because you documented a slang word that it would then become a "worthy" word. Worthy words are the legitimate words used by society, found in the dictionary and on the SAT. These are the words getting you into or keeping you out of college. Only real and worthy words are valued by educated, cultured people. I imagine Mr. Simon is saying that legitimizing slang will erode culture because no matter what this isn't going to be found on the SAT and used by a cultured class of people. Slang used appropriately is still slang right? It still won't be on the SAT's even if you see it in the newspaper. How do you reconcile the ugly issue underneath John Simon's point? Slang words which aren't in a dictionary and not on the SAT, strike at the ideas of Racisim, Class, Culture, and Commerce . . . this is the dilemma. I think he feels that folks who try to give slang some kind of legitimacy aren't helping society strive toward being educated but instead promote ignorance which means erosion of culture. >>"the curse of their race."<< I'm know i'm not good at expressing myself, sorry, it's honestly difficult to explain this. i just don't seem to be able to resolve why this makes me so uncomfortable. best, karen > > The one discordant note was the comment by critic John Simon that > descriptivists (i.e, people with any appreciation for slang) are, as best > I remember, "the curse of their race." > > There's a time and place for everything. Too much of anything is > inappropriate. A tool may be used inappropriately, but that's not the > fault of the tool.. Slang certainly *can* be used appropriately, even in > seriously written, well-polished articles/newspaper editorials/etc. I've > often noticed examples of this without bothering to jot down the > information. Maybe I should start doing so now (others can join in) and > sharing the information with ads-l. >Gerald Cohen From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 17:16:38 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:16:38 -0600 Subject: Newspape Archive Message-ID: I just picked up a subscription to NewspaperArchive, and I've got a couple questions for those of you who are "power users". 1. Is there any way to put the search results into chronological order? 2. Sometimes it will tell me how many results I have, sometimes it won't. Any ideas why this varies? 3. Now that I've bought the full subscription at $99.95, it looks like I could have saved some money by buying it through Ancestry.com. Is their service the same? Same database, same functionality? From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jan 10 17:42:20 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:42:20 -0500 Subject: Newspape Archive In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6C0@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:16, Mullins, Bill wrote: > I just picked up a subscription to NewspaperArchive, and I've got a > couple questions for those of you who are "power users". > 1. Is there any way to put the search results into chronological order? No. > 2. Sometimes it will tell me how many results I have, sometimes it > won't. Any ideas why this varies? Because it is pathetic and lame. If it doesn't give you a count, just assume the total is "more than I want to look through page by page" and see if you can revise your search to produce fewer results. > 3. Now that I've bought the full subscription at $99.95, it looks like > I could have saved some money by buying it through Ancestry.com. Is > their service the same? Same database, same functionality? The one through Ancestry.com is even worse than NewspaperArchive, which is itself a lesson in how not to put a full-text resource online. Some tips: 1. It does seems to respect AND and AND NOT. So you can sometimes search for things like "foo AND bar AND NOT fubar". However, since the OCR sucks so badly, the results are still a crap shoot. 2. The OCR has recently been improved--but only in the searching. It appears that they updated their searching index but not the OCR text that is embedded in the PDF files. This means that you may get results for a term but when you load the PDF document, and do a search to find the term inside the document, it doesn't show up. The solution is to also search for the words that appear around your bold search term in the results. 3. It does seem to respect terms in quotes as phrases, but not always. 4. I get the best results using search terms of 15 characters or less, including connectors: this seems to be the point at which OCR errors are guaranteed to interfere with any results. This is unfortunate because it does not allow great long boolean searches that would help eliminate unwanted articles. 5. Double-check all bibliographic info against the PDF. It's better than it was, but there are still too many errors in the info provided with the search results. Sometimes it's necessary to page through all the pages in a newspaper issue to figure out date, location, etc. In rare cases, you have to trust the Newspaperarchive info because there is none in the PDF, but this usually only occurs with very old newspapers. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 18:10:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: Composed salad (1972) In-Reply-To: <1ed.32db25ea.2f139fcc@aol.com> Message-ID: At 4:07 AM -0500 1/10/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >COMPOSED SALAD--973 Google hits, 40 Google Groups hits >(Not in the OED, "miserable on food") >... >Before choosing Vincent's yesterday, I was thinking of eating at Tai, 223 >Mulberry Street (_www.velvetnyc.com_ (http://www.velvetnyc.com) ). >However, it >seemed to be less of a Thai restaurant than a dark bar or lounge. >... >On the Tai menu was a "Composed Salad" ($7.50) of "Grilled calamari, >calamata olives, oven roasted tomatoes, chick pea vinaigrette." >... >Composed? Who is doing the cooking, Julia Child or Beethoven? Waiter! I >ordered this "composed salad" _mezzo forte_, and it's _pianissimo_! >Take it back! >... >... Isn't this a calque of Fr. _salade composée_? I didn't check all the sites below, but that's my understanding. larry >(GOOGLE) >... >_Composed Salad - Food Edviser - Glossary_ >(http://www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) >... Composed Salad A type of salad prepared with a number of ingredients >that are all >arranged neatly and symmetrically on the plate instead of being tossed ... >www.hormel.com/kitchen/ glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid= - 32k - _Cached_ >(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:AbLPhZc0uDcJ:www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossar >y.asp?id=35334&catitemid=+"composed+salad"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ >(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.hormel >.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 18:37:52 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:37:52 -0500 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) In-Reply-To: <41DDB321.27818.AB48250@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:52 PM +0000 1/6/05, Michael Quinion wrote: >Barry Popik wrote: > >> VLOGGERS--1,760 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits? >> VLOGGING--8,720 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits >> ... >> I didn't see vlogger/vlogging on Double Tongued Word Wrester or our >> archives. > >It is here: > > http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-vlo1.htm > >in a piece dating from September. > One of our students included "vlog" in his new words list (we tracked it back to 2002) and commented that because of the morphotactic restrictions on English onsets (well, he didn't put it that way, but that was the idea), it's always pronounced with two syllables, as Michael speculates it would be in his entry above). I'd predict that _vlogger_ might be more likely to occur with a vl- onset than _vlog_ itself. Larry From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Jan 10 18:44:18 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:44:18 -0600 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D19078D@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. Mullins, Bill wrote: >The OED has Gunsel in 1914 for one definition (catamite), and >1950 for another (the Elisha Cook Jr. type). This joke from >N'Archive may be using the word as a proper name (as many >cites from the era show up), but in context, it may be >related to the slang word. > >Ohio | Newark | Newark Daily Advocate | 1896-06-18 p.5/4 > >"He Forgot to Mention It. >Greene - Say, that shotgun I bought >of yon blew into 10,000 pieces the first >time I fired it off. I don't see how I ever >got off alive. >Gunsel - Oh, yes; I forgot to tell you. >You have heard of those new disappear- >ing guns the government is getting? >Well, that was one of them. - Indianapolis >Journal." > > > > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 18:45:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:45:11 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his listings in the IMDB. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of paulzjoh > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:44 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: gunsel > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: gunsel > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. > When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about > homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on > TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. > > Mullins, Bill wrote: > > >The OED has Gunsel in 1914 for one definition (catamite), > and 1950 for > >another (the Elisha Cook Jr. type). This joke from N'Archive may be > >using the word as a proper name (as many cites from the era > show up), > >but in context, it may be related to the slang word. > > > >Ohio | Newark | Newark Daily Advocate | 1896-06-18 p.5/4 > > > >"He Forgot to Mention It. > >Greene - Say, that shotgun I bought > >of yon blew into 10,000 pieces the first time I fired it > off. I don't > >see how I ever got off alive. > >Gunsel - Oh, yes; I forgot to tell you. > >You have heard of those new disappear- > >ing guns the government is getting? > >Well, that was one of them. - Indianapolis Journal." > > > > > > > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 18:51:47 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:51:47 -0500 Subject: Optimists and pessimists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:04 PM -0500 1/9/05, James A. Landau wrote: >Aside from the quote about the glass that is half full/empty, there are >several other optimist-pessimist provers. Two that come to mind: > >An optimist thinks this is the best of all perfect worlds. A pessimist is >afraid that it is. (This one probably goes back a ways, possibly to >Voltaire's >time). > >[in Europe] the optimists are learning Russian and the pessimists are >learning Chinese. (This one is obviously from the Cold War, and >probably after the >Sino-Soviet split, say the early 1960's.) > >A somewhat related proverb: "A cyniic knows the price of everything and the >value of nothing." > > - Jim Landau and then there's "Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel" --Walpole larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 19:08:08 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:08:08 -0600 Subject: slang for spanking Message-ID: "Boots and her Buddies" [comic strip] Abe Martin, Newspaper Enterprise Association, 1932-05-04 "If I catch 'im monkeyin' around with any plane, I'm gonna lay some leather on 'im! I've warned 'im once -- Th' next time I'm gonna give 'im a swell dose of suntan where it'll do 'im th' most good" From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:13:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:13:03 -0500 Subject: Newspape Archive Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:42:20 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:16, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> I just picked up a subscription to NewspaperArchive, and I've got a >> couple questions for those of you who are "power users". >> 1. Is there any way to put the search results into chronological order? > >No. > >> 2. Sometimes it will tell me how many results I have, sometimes it >> won't. Any ideas why this varies? > >Because it is pathetic and lame. If it doesn't give you a count, just >assume the total is "more than I want to look through page by page" and >see if you can revise your search to produce fewer results. I think that it will tell you how many results you have if you do a search without any date restrictions. Any search restricted to a range of years (showing up in the URL as <+AND+range:...>) does not give a count, regardless of how many results there are. Since you can't get the search results in chronological order, I usually just end up fiddling with the date range until I get a time period with a small number of results. Then I hope I get lucky with the OCR actually returning legitimate matches. (I'm starting to figure out which letters are frequently misrecognized as other letters, e.g., "l" for "i", "o" or "c" for "e", etc., so that a search on "movies" could be extended to "movles", "movios", "movlos", "movics", "movlcs", etc.) --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:26:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:26:44 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:16 PM -0600 1/9/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Ben Zimmer wrote (Jan. 9, 2005): > >> (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") >> >Ah, another blend: "Nor I" + "Me neither." > I'm not convinced "Nor I" is involved. "Nor me", without the postposed "(n)either" emphatic, would be more likely for many speakers (in particular "nor me neither" speakers) than "Nor I". Note, for example, that the positive stand-alone form "Me too" is a *lot* more frequent/likely than "I too", and we'd expect the negative-environment counterpart of "Me too" to be either "Me either" or "Me neither", depending on whether one opts for negative polarity or negative concord. Even the BBC seems to agree on the "me" vs. "I" angle, although for some reason it doesn't allow for the "Me either" form: ======== http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv78.shtml Note that the converse of Me too is Nor me or Me neither: * 'I don't fancy climbing to the top of this mountain this afternoon.' 'Me neither.' * 'I'm not going to Jane's party on Saturday.' 'Nor me.' ========= So if "Nor me neither" did originate as a blend, I'd vote for "Nor me" + "Me (n)either" as the ingredients in the blender. (FWIW, Google has "nor me either" outpointing "nor me neither" by 945-357.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:46:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:46:30 -0500 Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea In-Reply-To: <1105280362.32554.212323336@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: At 3:19 PM +0100 1/9/05, Paul Frank wrote: > > STINKY, SMELLY TOFU >> ... >> Thanks to Ben Zimmer for using "bean curd" to track this to 1980. It's >> often >> transliterated as "dofou," which is why I thought "tofu" would be used. >> But > >Actually, it's often transliterated as doufu, because that's what it's >called in Chinese (in the pinyin transliteration). Tofu is Japanese. >It's too bad that "bean curd" has been replaced by "tofu." > I don't know. "Bean curd" would evoke negative reactions, I'd wager, even if (or maybe because) it's more compositional and transparent than tofu. (Mostly because of the "curd" part, but it's also true that "bean" doesn't immediately evoke "soybean" for English speakers.) So the use of a borrowed form, whether doufu or tofu, is a kind of euphemism, much as in the case of "calamari" replacing "squid" for culinary purposes, or "mahi-mahi" for "dolphin(-fish)". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:59:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:59:42 -0500 Subject: Vertical game (vs. West Coast offense) In-Reply-To: <31197.69.142.143.59.1105256206.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 2:36 AM -0500 1/9/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:02:28 EST, James A. Landau wrote: > >>I don't recall ever having heard the phrase "vertical game" (meaning long >>passes in American football) before this year's NFL season, when the >>commentators on the Philadelphia Eagles seemed to use it in every game. >>However, I found what purports to be a 1999 Web site >>URL http://www.badgermaniac.com/99footballpreview.html >>which contains "If a quarterback emerges who can do anything to give the >>Badgers a vertical game in the three important conference matchups, the >>Badgers could shock the nation and go to the Sugar Bowl or at least >>return to the Rose Bowl." > >Here's a 1986 cite: > > New York Times, Aug 31, 1986, p. S1 > "He's a guy who can catch the ball in the vertical game very > well," Hackett said. "He's a hand catcher, he can jump and leap > and catch it. He looks smooth running the routes, he flows into > it very easily." > >That's a quote about Herschel Walker from Paul Hackett -- then the Dallas > Cowboys' pass offense coordinator, now the Jets' offensive coordinator >(whose dubious play-calling continues to give Jets fans conniptions). > >And here's an earlier NY Times cite, from a 1981 column by NBC Nightly >News producer Henry L. Griggs complaining about the incomprehensible >commentating on that year's Super Bowl broadcast: > > New York Times, Feb 1, 1981, p. S2 > Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." > A related metaphor is "north-south" vs. "east-west", to describe either offensive philosophies or, more specifically, running games. A north-south runner basically goes into the line, using strength, while east-west runners are evasive and slippery, using finesse or "escapability". And then there's "running downhill", which also alludes to the straight-ahead style, "matriculating the ball down the field", as Hank Stram once famously said. I'm not sure "horizontal" is used as the opposite of "vertical" for passing games. If anything, the antonym of "vertical offense" appears to be "West Coast offense" (don't ask). In fact, I think the popularity of "vertical" to describe styles of offensive passing arose alongside the trendy use (since at least the 90's) of the phrase "West Coast offense", and was especially associated with, of all people, Al Davis's Oakland Raiders, which last time I looked are located on the west coast. Antedates on "West Coast" in this sense, anyone? larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:03:31 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:03:31 -0500 Subject: Vertical Game/Offense (1981) In-Reply-To: <1f7.3f9a203.2f124144@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:11 AM -0500 1/9/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Damn that Ben Zimmer! Beat me by seconds! >... Oops, sorry--Didn't read this post of Barry's before I posted. Nice to see my impressionistic feel about the association of the Raiders with the "vertical" passing offense is empirically supported. But my hypothesis on the opposition to, and query about first cite for, "West Coast" offense still stands. Larry >"Vertical game" was widely used in the 1980s. It was made famous by the >Oakland Raiders. >... >... >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_Fumbles at the Mike Fill the Super Bowl_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=114175448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName= >HNP&TS=1105255139&clientId=65882) >By HENRY L. GRIGGS Jr.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: >Feb 1, 1981. p. S2 (1 page) >... >Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." >... >_Raiders: Predictability Put Foe in Predicament; It Was All Predictable >Except for the Result _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=127823082&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clien >tId=65882) >By Paul Attner Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post >(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 24, 1984. p. C1 (2 pages) >Page C4: >Because of the wind, even Plunkett hardly went downtown in the Raiders' >vertical offense. >... >_Molded in Al Davis's Image; Power Behind Raiders Makes Them Fit His Image _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=120451189&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10& >VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clientId=65882) >By MICHAEL JANOFSKYEL SEGUNDO, Calif.. New York Times (1857-Current file). >New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1984. p. S1 (2 pages) >Page 6: >Wide receivers need, above all, speed because of the Raiders' "vertical" >offense. >... >... > >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >... > _ Times Recorder _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2vQ7G4ztzPygqjFQKcVwK+OUNB3I6gXroA==) >Monday, March 11, 1974 >_Zanesville,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:zanesville+vertical+offense) >_Ohio_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+offense) >...who don't play too much used USC's VERTICAL OFFENSE against our top >eight.....the rest of the way. Boston's OFFENSE never got off the >ground in the. >... > > > _Chronicle Telegram _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2kmnfD/KalHCRKlAZVmURN0jbtL4V7NJxQ==) >Wednesday, August >20, 1986 _Elyria,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+vertical+game) >_Ohio_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+game) >...Sam Rutigliano used to talk about the "VERTICAL GAME." It's still the >quickest.....The loss broke Cleveland's four GAME winning streak >and also cost >the.. >... > _News Record _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEt2YujW4u1fjTKMOvmC6JeT0IF+CsZYmrz) >Friday, September >08, 1989 _North Hills,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_hills+vertical+game+AND) >_Pennsylvania_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+vertical+game+AND) >...geles >Raiders to return to their famed VERTICAL GAME the high- powered >offense.....downfieid for then opt for the short GAME if else fails >Denver coach Dan.. >... _Capital _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2kqKKdP1sBkRsXev0C5pLYL+HTeu2vtXIkIF+CsZYmrz) >Sunday, November 06, >1994 _Annapolis,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+vertical+game) >_Maryland_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+vertical+game) >...pro football's best left tackles. The VERTICAL GAME became horizon- >Schroeder.....Thomas Smith says of the first Jets' GAME. is going >to be a huge >GAME for not.. >... >... >... > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("vertical game" + "passing") >... > >_QB situation Bites_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy/browse_frm/thread/290fde870eafff76/1d910026baf6d03e?q="vertical+game"+ >passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=U >TF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#1d910026baf6d03e) >... Almost every one but Det. had a big passing game against NE. ... I would >tend to lean >toward Hoss just because the "vertical" game has to eventually get going. >... >_rec.sport.football.fantasy_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy) - >Oct 6 1994, 6:26 am by mch... at nwu.edu - 2 messages - 2 >authors >... > >_LYNX game reviews_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/7679ffb5cb7ba9b0/0d06d95fdcec98ec?q="vertical+game"+passin >g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c >2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0d06d95fdcec98ec) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_rec.games.video.atari_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Oct 3 >1994, 6:37 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Freakishly Overdeveloped Geeks 0_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/3aa48a895e532e7a/62cb993e5522ec60?q="verti >cal+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d& >hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#62cb993e5522ec60) >... Is Curtis Conway *really* as bad as he looked last year? If so, the >Bears don't >have a passing game. ... AFC West: 1) LOS ANGELES. The vertical game is >back. ... >_rec.sport.football.pro_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Sep >3 1994, 2:19 pm by Arthur Hlavaty - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Lynx game reviews_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/fb2927b25dec8025/be96dfb6998260c9?q="vertical+game"+passin >g&_done=/gro >ups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#be96dfb6998260c9) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_rec.games.video.atari_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Aug 3 >1994, 4:34 pm by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Hostetler_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/606d84cee736e1bc/29a5ffa8c5e539bb?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done= >/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1& >&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#29a5ffa8c5e539bb) >... A typical passing play looked like this: 1. Snap, drop back. 2. Check >first receiver. ... >BTW, teams need more than excellent receivers for a good vertical game. ... > >_rec.sport.football.pro_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul >14 1994, 4:52 pm by Peter Simko - 16 messages - 12 authors >... > >_Sleeper Teams_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/4068de60e2505966/e24a0a060478a2b1?q="vertical+game"+passing&_ >done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2co >ff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#e24a0a060478a2b1) >... consensus) the raiders need a running game to go with that "vertical >game" This >I ... I mean Hose-stuffer should have been one of the NFL passing >leaders...instead ... >_rec.sport.football.pro_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul >12 1994, 6:15 pm by SAD... at psuvm.psu.edu - 45 messages - 31 >authors >... > >_LYNX Game Reviews_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/d0932d73638565f7/27af040ded79cca4?q="vertical+game"+passin >g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c >2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#27af040ded79cca4) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_rec.games.video.atari_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - May >31 1994, 11:01 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Why soccer?_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/e3750208eba1efb6/b39310263d5880aa?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done=/gr >oups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_d >oneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b39310263d5880aa) >... the vertical game took hold in this century - (thank ND and Knute >Rockne?) - that >American Football took on its current _general_ character as a passing game >... >_rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) - >May 21 1994, 2:06 pm by Simon K Boocock - 11 messages - 9 authors >... > >_Lynx Reviews (all of them. LONG file)_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/7ec1245048b46150/f95ef1eb801f920a?q="vertical >+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl= >en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f95ef1eb801f920a) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Nov >7 1993, 9:37 am by Kevin Dangoor - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Football and Pinball Jam are out_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/58c222cd8afae3da/de972e7b51265ec6?q="vertical+game >"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie >=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#de972e7b51265ec6) >... 1) The Pinball Jam is a vertical game that scrolls up and down to keep >you the ... Passing >plays are a bit better, except that interceptions are fairly arbitrary. ... > >_alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Sep >19 1992, 8:09 am by Michael L. Kaufman - 5 messages - 4 authors >... > > >_Lynx reviews! HOCKEY, HYDRA, LYNX CASINO_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/2fe4429cb8d36ac3/9302c1ff98c4a297?q="vertic >al+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=160&scoring=d&h >l=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#9302c1ff98c4a297) >... HOCKEY 1-2 players, horizontal & vertical game Atari Corp ... Player >selection (with >OPTION 1) and puck-passing (with button B) are managable, but shooting for >the ... >_alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Jun >26 1992, 3:15 pm by Robert A. Jung - 1 message - 1 author From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:11:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:08 -0500 Subject: flea-flicker (1911) In-Reply-To: <41134.69.142.143.59.1105264077.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 4:47 AM -0500 1/9/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On the Jets' second possession, their offensive coordinator, > Paul Hackett, called a flea flicker. > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/sports/football/09jets.html > >A flea-flicker is "any of various deceptive football plays in which the >ball is quickly transferred between players (as by a lateral) before or >after a forward pass" (W10). HDAS relies on W10 for a first cited date of >1927. I believe this term has narrowed to denote a play in which the ball is eventually lateraled back to the quarterback (typically after a handoff to a running back, who indeed attempts to deceive the defense by running with the ball for a short period, with the intention of leaving a receiver uncovered deep) who passes the ball. A halfback option pass, while satisfying the above definition, no longer counts as a flea-flicker. Certainly three passes (as in the 1913 entry) before the long forward passes are no longer required; the ball just has to leave the QB's possession before re-entering it for the long pass. larry > >The HDAS cites, Proquest, and Google all suggest that the "flea-flicker" >was invented by Bob Zuppke, who coached Chicago's Oak Park High School >team before becoming head coach at the University of Illinois in 1913. > > http://www.coachz.net/B.Zuppke.htm > Zuppke will always be known for having one of football's greatest > minds. He invented the huddle, the flea-flicker, the screen pass, > the pass-block, the long snap and a new defensive position now > known as the 'linebacker.' > >Earliest cites from the Trib: > >------- >1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 19 Nov. C1/6 All the intricate formations >Coach Zuppkee [sic] ever evolved were used with effect. The famous "flea >flicker," "whoa-back," and other uncanny formations worked with much >success. >------- >1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 3 Dec. B2/1 A famous "flea flicker" went bad >but Oak Park recovered. >------- >1913 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 2 Nov. B3/5 Oak Park's "Ghee Haw," "Flea >Flicker," and "Flying Dutchman" plays were a revelation to the effete east >and Everett was beaten 32 to 14. The "Ghee Haw," which received its name >as a pun because originally it centered around Ghee, present quarterback >at Dartmouth, was a double pass and then a forward pass, while the "Flea >Flicker" called for three passes before the long forward pass. >------- > > >--Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:22:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:22:09 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <48535.69.142.143.59.1105167167.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 1:52 AM -0500 1/8/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >A usage no doubt repulsive to the John Simons and Robert Fiskes of this >world is the equating of "nauseous" with "nauseated" (rather than the >earlier sense of "nauseating"). Here's the AHD4 usage note on the issue: ========== Traditional critics have insisted that nauseous is properly used only to mean "causing nausea" and that it is incorrect to use it to mean "affected with nausea," as in Roller coasters make me nauseous. In this example, nauseated is preferred by 72 percent of the Usage Panel. Curiously, though, 88 percent of the Panelists prefer using nauseating in the sentence The children looked a little green from too many candy apples and nauseating (not nauseous) rides. Since there is a lot of evidence to show that nauseous is widely used to mean "feeling sick," it appears that people use nauseous mainly in the sense in which it is considered incorrect. In its "correct" sense it is being supplanted by nauseating. ========= Larry >The OED3 draft entry dates this sense of >"nauseous" to 1949, but surely we can do better... > >-------- >1885 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 14 Apr. 2/5 I saw the long and >white helmeted troops march in apparent comfort on their way, while I >swayed to and fro and was bumped up and down and oscillated and see-sawed >from side to side until I became nauseous and had exhausted my profane >Arabic vocabulary in the vain attempt to induce "Daddles" to consider my >comfort more than his own. >-------- >1903 _Coshocton Daily Age_ (Ohio) 16 Sep. 1/1 Her voyage through the >spirit land made her somewhat nauseous and was not the most pleasant >journey imaginable, but she is on the high road to recovery now. >-------- >1906 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 7 July 7/3 (advt.) When you feel >nauseous and dizzy, don't take brandy or whisky -- try Nerviline. >-------- >1927 _Chicago Tribune_ 9 May 10/3 This lasts ten or fifteen minutes, and >then I have a terrible headache and I feel nauseous. >-------- >1933 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Sep. II6/1 (advt.) The salts that do not make >you nauseous. >-------- > >The 1885 cite is from an unnamed piece entitled, "In the Camps at Korti: >Terrible March across the Heated Sands of the Soudan" ("Daddles" is the >name of the writer's camel). So perhaps British (or Commonwealth) sources >antedate American ones for this usage (despite the OED's "orig. U.S." >tag). > >Here is the earliest cite I could find expressing concern over the proper >use of "nauseous" (from Frank Colby's column, "Take My Word For It!"): > >-------- >1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 8 Nov. II7/7 From a recent issue of Look: "Stefan >became nauseous." Could that be right? ... Yes, if the author intended to >say that Stefan was loathsome; so disgusting as to cause nausea. Obviously >he meant to write: Stefan became nauseated. >-------- > > >--Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:26:59 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:26:59 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:26:44 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 6:16 PM -0600 1/9/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >> Ben Zimmer wrote (Jan. 9, 2005): >> >>> (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") >>> >>Ah, another blend: "Nor I" + "Me neither." >> > >I'm not convinced "Nor I" is involved. "Nor me", without the >postposed "(n)either" emphatic, would be more likely for many >speakers (in particular "nor me neither" speakers) than "Nor I". >Note, for example, that the positive stand-alone form "Me too" is a >*lot* more frequent/likely than "I too", and we'd expect the >negative-environment counterpart of "Me too" to be either "Me either" >or "Me neither", depending on whether one opts for negative polarity >or negative concord. I agree with Larry on this one. I see "nor me neither" as simply "nor me" with "neither" added for emphasis. OED3's def. 3a of "neither" gives many cites for the negative-concord sense (e.g., "Nay that cannot bee so neyther" from _Two Gentlemen of Verona_), though it notes that the emphasis of an explicit negative is "non-standard in later use." Def. 3c implies that "me neither" is an elliptical form of the earlier "nor me neither" ("me too" is not mentioned as an analogical influence, though that seems likely). Just to push "nor me neither" back a bit further (OED3 only gives an 1895 cite from Hardy's _Jude the Obscure_), here is the earliest of 16 cites available on APS Online via Proquest: 1843 _Godey's Lady's Book_ 27 (Aug.) 53/2 "She shant teach me. She shant!" "Nor me neither, I'd spit at her!" This is in dialogue between children (who also use "ain't"), so it appears that it was already understood as a non-standard usage. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 22:02:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:02:13 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:22:09 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 1:52 AM -0500 1/8/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>A usage no doubt repulsive to the John Simons and Robert Fiskes of this >>world is the equating of "nauseous" with "nauseated" (rather than the >>earlier sense of "nauseating"). > >Here's the AHD4 usage note on the issue: >========== >Traditional critics have insisted that nauseous is properly used only >to mean "causing nausea" and that it is incorrect to use it to mean >"affected with nausea," as in Roller coasters make me nauseous. In >this example, nauseated is preferred by 72 percent of the Usage >Panel. Curiously, though, 88 percent of the Panelists prefer using >nauseating in the sentence The children looked a little green from >too many candy apples and nauseating (not nauseous) rides. Since >there is a lot of evidence to show that nauseous is widely used to >mean "feeling sick," it appears that people use nauseous mainly in >the sense in which it is considered incorrect. In its "correct" sense >it is being supplanted by nauseating. >========= In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of "nauseated" and "nauseating". --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 22:32:55 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:32:55 -0500 Subject: Vertical game (vs. West Coast offense) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:59:42 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >I'm not sure "horizontal" is used as the opposite of "vertical" for >passing games. If anything, the antonym of "vertical offense" >appears to be "West Coast offense" (don't ask). In fact, I think the >popularity of "vertical" to describe styles of offensive passing >arose alongside the trendy use (since at least the 90's) of the >phrase "West Coast offense", and was especially associated with, of >all people, Al Davis's Oakland Raiders, which last time I looked are >located on the west coast. Antedates on "West Coast" in this sense, >anyone? The offensive style was associated with Bill Walsh's 49ers in the '80s, but the actual name "West Coast offense" was apparently only popularized when Wade Phillips began coaching the Broncos in 1993: --------- Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), Mar 13, 1993, p. 1C "Gibbs, Bill Walsh and Dick Vermeil come from that same Sid Gilman-passing-game, West Coast-style football. Bill went one way with it, with the quickness and movement approach, and Joe went the other, by going with brute force that would set up the passing game. But they are from that same school." --------- Los Angeles Times, Aug 8, 1993, p. 7 Some call it the West Coast offense. Others, the Bill Walsh offense. Still others, the Joe Montana offense. Those who have been forced to play against it have been known to call it things unprintable in a family newspaper. The basic elements are simple: Use split backs, two wide receivers and a tight end. Spread the offense out evenly, using all five as receivers. Stick to a short dropback by the quarterback, a quick attack and short passes. And make the personnel fit the game plan rather than vice versa. --------- St. Petersburg Times (Florida), Aug 27, 1993, p. 6G Denver Coach: Wade Phillips (first season). 1992 record: 8-8, 3rd in AFC West. Will win division if: The new "West Coast" offense lets Elway go coast to coast. --------- Seattle Times, Sep 2, 1993, p. D5 For instance, X's and O's. They're overrated, Phillips said. Yes, the Broncos have gone to the "West Coast" offense popularized by Bill Walsh. But the main reason is to better utilize Elway, the team's best player. --------- New York Times, Sep 5, 1993, p. S11 The reins have been loosened on quarterback John Elway now that Wade Phillips, the former defensive coordinator, is coaching the team. Phillips took over for Dan Reeves, who was fired at the end of last season, and installed what he calls the "West Coast" offense, which is a short passing game similar to what San Francisco runs. --------- --Ben Zimmer From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 10 23:08:50 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:08:50 -0800 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6C1@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook > seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a > cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his > listings in the IMDB. > >> -----Original Message----- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: paulzjoh >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for "gunsel". so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the insiders. arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 23:17:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:17:07 -0800 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: Seems to me that "gunsel" was already in Hammett's 1929 novel, and that the emergent sense of "gunman" owes a lot to the 1941 film. A "gunsel" was, essentially, a "raw youth" and did not always imply homosexuality. Cf. the precisely similar range of meanings attached to "punk." The latter is almost unquestionably from the 16th-century term for a prostitute or kept mistress - eventually extended in prison and similar situations to young men. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: gunsel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook > seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a > cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his > listings in the IMDB. > >> -----Original Message----- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: paulzjoh >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for "gunsel". so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the insiders. arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 23:32:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:32:25 -0800 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: The choice of the names "Greene" and "Gunsel" may be intentional, since both carried connotations of naivete or foolishness. On a mere hunch, I checked the Net for evidence of a vaudeville tean named "Gunsel and Greene" but found nothing. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: gunsel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook > seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a > cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his > listings in the IMDB. > >> -----Original Message----- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: paulzjoh >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for "gunsel". so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the insiders. arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jan 11 00:51:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:48 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: -Ben Zimmer writes: >1843 _Godey's Lady's Book_ 27 (Aug.) 53/2 "She shant teach me. She shant!" >"Nor me neither, I'd spit at her!" >This is in dialogue between children (who also use "ain't"), so it appears >that it was already understood as a non-standard usage. ~~~~~~~~~ Had the disparagement of "ain't" begun that early? I thought it was more a twentieth century enterprise. A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 11 00:38:33 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:38:33 -0800 Subject: humbling moment: (was Re: technically correct subject-verb agreement) In-Reply-To: <8F092D4A-5B6F-11D9-ADF0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2004, at 1:04 PM, i wrote: > On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:50 AM, i wrote: > >>>>> Going to his house was what I lived for. There were liquor, music, >>>>> and >>>>> a strong desire for my body. >> >> just to remind people: this isn't a vote on what the "real" grammar of >> english is, or should be... looking for something else, today i checked the MWDEU entry for "there is, there are" and discovered that this is a well-traveled road. ----- ...when a compound subject follows the verb and the first element is singular, we find mixed usage--the verb may either be singular or plural. Jespersen... explains the singular verb as a case of attraction of the verb to the first subject, and illustrates it... from Shakespeare... Perrin & Ebbitt 1972 also suggests that many writers feel the plural verb is awkward before a singular noun, and Bryant 1962 cites studies that show the singular verb is much more common in standard English. ----- nothing new, etc. meanwhile, geoff pullum writes to say that most of the neat split infinitive data i've been assembling were laid out in the syntax volume of Curme's grammar (1931). arnold From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Jan 11 01:35:17 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:35:17 -0600 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <20050110231707.48511.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I remember the phrase "punked out" as prison slang for forcing someone to take the subservient role in a homosexual relationship. Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Seems to me that "gunsel" was already in Hammett's 1929 novel, and that the emergent sense of "gunman" owes a lot to the 1941 film. A "gunsel" was, essentially, a "raw youth" and did not always imply homosexuality. > >Cf. the precisely similar range of meanings attached to "punk." The latter is almost unquestionably from the 16th-century term for a prostitute or kept mistress - eventually extended in prison and similar situations to young men. > >JL > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: gunsel >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > > > >>As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook >>seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a >>cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his >>listings in the IMDB. >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: paulzjoh >>> >>> > > > >>>Subject: Re: gunsel >>>-------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >>>When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >>>homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >>>TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. >>> >>> > >as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' >attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they >could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them >realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect >it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this >seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for >"gunsel". > >so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of >deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent >meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the >insiders. > >arnold > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free! > > > > From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jan 11 01:43:21 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:43:21 -0800 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Saw this in today's news: "Calif. Principal Bans 'Freak Dancing'", AP, 10 Jan 2005: "But he said the students continued "freak dancing," a form of sexually suggestive dancing that involves grinding the hips and pelvic area." Google Groups has several hundred hits (it's hard to count because the search turns up many other senses). The earliest is from 13 Aug 1998 in rec.sport.pro-wrestling.fantasy: "At that Terry Fletcher gets up from the table and walks back to where the women are freak dancing with each other. Terry smiles and jumps in the middle of all of them." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 01:59:15 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:59:15 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Usually it's just "freaking." Reads like the principal's not that with it. Here's a hit from 1993: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/ f1f14272b9f282b7?dmode=source "A woman here at work told me her 7th grade daughter came home from her first dance and said the school principal had chastised her for freaking while dancing with her partner. When asked what freaking meant, her daughter would not say. Does anybody know the meaning of freaking in this context?" Grant Barrett On Jan 10, 2005, at 20:43, Dave Wilton wrote: > Saw this in today's news: > > "Calif. Principal Bans 'Freak Dancing'", AP, 10 Jan 2005: > > "But he said the students continued "freak dancing," a form of > sexually suggestive dancing that involves grinding the hips and pelvic > area." > > Google Groups has several hundred hits (it's hard to count because the > search turns up many other senses). The earliest is from 13 Aug 1998 > in rec.sport.pro-wrestling.fantasy: > > "At that Terry Fletcher gets up from the table and walks back to where > the women are freak dancing with each other. Terry smiles and jumps in > the middle of all of them." > > --Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > http://www.wilton.net > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 02:07:19 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:07:19 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050107134144.R18506@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Re: > >I must >I must >I must develop a bust. >I better >I better >So I can wear a sweater. >We must, we must >increase the size of our bust >the bigger the better >the tighter the sweater >the boys depend on us and so on... This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm wondering is what we *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 02:16:39 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:16:39 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <18493.69.142.143.59.1105394533.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 5:02 PM -0500 1/10/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has >undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion >amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner >introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I >believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that >some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing >usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage >is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the >prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >"nauseated" and "nauseating". > In other cases, though, no skunking seems to have applied. "Peruse" has pretty much shifted over from "read carefully" to "skim", as far as I can tell, despite the fact that the now prevailing use is still disparaged by prescriptivists (including 66% of us distinguished AHD4 usage panelists) while the "etymological" meaning is mostly ignored by those other than lexicographers and purists, and also despite the fact that in the former meaning "peruse" has no obvious synonym while in the latter it's a synonym of "skim". larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jan 11 02:44:11 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:44:11 -0600 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language Message-ID: Original message from Karen (Educational CyberPlayGround), Jan. 10, 2005):---------- > Hi Gerald, [...] > Worthy words are the legitimate words used by society, > found in the dictionary and on the SAT. These are the words getting you into or keeping you out of college. > Only real and worthy words are valued by educated, cultured people. > > I imagine Mr. Simon is saying that legitimizing slang will erode culture because no matter what this isn't going to be found on the SAT and used by a cultured class of people. [...] > I think he feels that folks who > try to give slang some kind of legitimacy > aren't helping society strive toward being > educated but instead promote ignorance > which means erosion of culture. [...] *************** Dear Karen, Mr. Simon falls down by overstating the need to avoid slang. There's a time and place for everything, and if by some magic stroke words/expressions like "vamoose," "gung ho," "Eureka!", "pull it off" (succeed), "shyster," "don't give a hoot in a rainbarrel," "turkey" (abject failure), "have a screw loose," "amscray" could suddenly be removed from our language, English would be the poorer for it. And certainly, people who record or study where our language comes from deserve better than to be labeled the curse of our race. I have a doctorate, am a full professor, and have written extensively on etymology. And yet, when leaving my office for the day, if I say (as I sometimes do), "I'm gonna vamoose the ranch," no one has yet reacted as if the cultural level of my department has just declined. I suppose it's a bit like adding spice to one's cooking. Overdo it, and the dinner is spoiled. Do it in moderation, and the dinner is enhanced. With best wishes, Gerald P.S. William Buckley--certainly as cultured an individual as one could hope to find-- once wrote a column with the title "Ixnay." (I believe it was in the 1970s; I have a copy somewhere in my notes.) "Ixnay," of course, is pig Latin for "nix," itself slang. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 03:04:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:04:37 -0500 Subject: Antedating of pop : "to pay for" Message-ID: OED: pop. v. "to pay for" 1959 From the recitation, "After-Hours Joint," recorded by Jimmy Coe on the Delmark label, 1953: Hey, bar-waitress! Give everybody a drink! 'Cause I'm popping This mewning (sic, i.e. "morning")! -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 04:33:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:33:36 -0500 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WRT "punk," far as long as I can remember - from the early '40's - "punk" has always been the Black-English equivalent of "fag" in the sense of "most insulting term applicable to homosexuals." Its use in the movies with only the meaning of "callow youth" was simply not understood and always brought forth peals of inappropriate laughter from the audiences in the segregated movie houses of my youth. E.g., remember the scene in Red River in which John Wayne says to Montgomery Clift, "You young punk"? It had the audience of the Dugout (actually, the Douglas) rolling in the aisles. -Wilson Gray On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:35 PM, paulzjoh wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: gunsel > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I remember the phrase "punked out" as prison slang for forcing someone > to take the subservient role in a homosexual relationship. > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Seems to me that "gunsel" was already in Hammett's 1929 novel, and >> that the emergent sense of "gunman" owes a lot to the 1941 film. A >> "gunsel" was, essentially, a "raw youth" and did not always imply >> homosexuality. >> >> Cf. the precisely similar range of meanings attached to "punk." The >> latter is almost unquestionably from the 16th-century term for a >> prostitute or kept mistress - eventually extended in prison and >> similar situations to young men. >> >> JL >> >> "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: >> >> >> >>> As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But >>> Cook >>> seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a >>> cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his >>> listings in the IMDB. >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: paulzjoh >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: gunsel >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >>>> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >>>> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >>>> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. >>>> >>>> >> >> as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the >> 'catamite' >> attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they >> could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them >> realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect >> it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this >> seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for >> "gunsel". >> >> so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of >> deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent >> meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the >> insiders. >> >> arnold >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free! >> >> >> >> > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 04:58:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:58:25 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:48 -0500, sagehen wrote: >-Ben Zimmer writes: >>1843 _Godey's Lady's Book_ 27 (Aug.) 53/2 "She shant teach me. She shant!" >>"Nor me neither, I'd spit at her!" > >>This is in dialogue between children (who also use "ain't"), so it appears >>that it was already understood as a non-standard usage. >~~~~~~~~~ >Had the disparagement of "ain't" begun that early? I thought it was more >a twentieth century enterprise. Depends on what you mean by "disparagement". Nineteenth-century lexicographers, if they mentioned "ain't" (or the earlier spelling "an't") at all, noted that it was non-standard. Webster's 1828 dictionary has: ĀNT, in our vulgar dialect, as in the phrases, I _ānt,_ you _ānt_, he _ānt_, we _ānt_, & c., is undoubtedly a contraction of the Danish _er_, _ere_, the substantive verb, in the present tense of the Indicative Mode, and _not_, I _er-not_, we _ere-not_, he _er-not_, or of the Swedish _ar_, the same verb, Infinitive _vara_, to be. These phrases are doubtless legitimate remains of the Gothic dialect. In case that doesn't display properly for everyone, Webster gives the spelling as with a macron, apparently indicating a pronunciation of /eInt/. See: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/1648e4fe47c3a616?dmode=source And this disparaging definition can still be found in the OED: _an't_ contraction of _are n't_, _are not_; colloquially for _am not_; and in illiterate or dialect speech for _is not_, _has not_ (_han't_). A later and still more illiterate form is AINT, q.v. The definition for "ain't" was updated for OED2, but this one looks like it has remained unaltered from the original A-Ant fascicle of 1884. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 05:49:38 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:49:38 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:59:15 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >Usually it's just "freaking." Reads like the principal's not that with >it. Here's a hit from 1993: > >http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/ >f1f14272b9f282b7?dmode=source > >"A woman here at work told me her 7th grade daughter came home from her >first dance and said the school principal had chastised her for >freaking while dancing with her partner. When asked what freaking >meant, her daughter would not say. Does anybody know the meaning of >freaking in this context?" Earlier in '93, Patrick Atoon's Rap Dictionary (now at ) defined "freak" as "dance in a provocative way": http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.rap/msg/b5c56d623381de70 But this all goes back about 15 years earlier to the disco dance craze called "the Freak", immortalized by Chic's 1978 hit "Le Freak". From an interview with Chic's Nile Rodgers: --------- http://www.superseventies.com/1979_2singles.html "At that time, Studio 54 was real big in New York," recalled Nile. "A lot of people tried to get into the club, but couldn't. It was real popular with models and people who are not inhibited, more or less. They came out late at night after working all day and were just having fun. Anyway, they had this dance they called the Freak, and it was very, very unorthodox." In order to Freak, two dancers bend at the knees, spread their legs, and bump their pelvises together, in time to the music. "The public began to pick up on it, and they made a more 'commercial' Freak. That's what we saw in the discos and started to write about. We thought it could be like the Twist. Everyone said, 'You're crazy. There'll never be another dance craze in the U.S.' But we wrote the song anyway to go along with the dance. "At first, reaction was bad because of the word "freak." A lot of stations just didn't want that word on the radio. But suddenly they just started playing it, and within two or three weeks it had sold over a million copies." --------- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 08:53:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:53:58 -0500 Subject: interrogation techniques (Mutt & Jeff, good cop/bad cop, etc.) Message-ID: http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_terrorists.html City Journal, Winter 2005 Army doctrine gives interrogators 16 "approaches" to induce prisoners of war to divulge critical information. Sporting names like "Pride and Ego Down" and "Fear Up Harsh," these approaches aim to exploit a detainee's self-love, allegiance to or resentment of comrades, or sense of futility. Applied in the right combination, they will work on nearly everyone, the intelligence soldiers had learned in their training. ... Similar restrictions — a specific finding of military necessity and notice to Rumsfeld — applied to other tried-and-true army psychological techniques. These included "Pride and Ego Down" — attacking a detainee's pride to goad him into revealing critical information — as well as "Mutt and Jeff," the classic good cop–bad cop routine of countless police shows. OED3 has a first cite of 1974 for "Mutt and Jeff (routine)" in the interrogation sense. Proquest has it a decade earlier: ------- 1964 _Washington Post_ 30 Aug. A13/1 An interesting sidelight on how FBI agents operate was described to a traveler by a Philadelphia businessman. According to his story, one of the FBI interrogation techniques is the old "Mutt and Jeff" routine taught by Army Intelligence. It operates this way: One agent abuses his subject, firing tough questions and snide accusations. Then the other agent, who acts as the higher-ranking of the two, reprimands his partner and treats his subject with kid gloves. He might even talk about fishing and football to try to gain the subject's confidence, and then will slip in the pertinent questions. ------- I don't see anything in OED or HDAS for "good cop/bad cop (routine)". Surprisingly, I couldn't find any cites before 1973-74, in two NY Times articles by Leslie Gelb about negotiations with Israel made by Henry Kissinger and James Schlesinger: ------- 1973 _New York Times_ 21 Oct. Sec. 4 (Week in Review) 1/5 Was this a bad cop-good cop routine? Was Mr. Kissinger fixing the diplomatic deal, but keeping Mr. Schlesinger in reserve as a threat to keep the Soviets from taking chances? ------- 1974 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. (Magazine) 44/4 But another version is that the two Secretaries arranged to play a good cop-bad cop routine with the Israelis. ------- As for "pride and ego up/down" and "fear up/down", that's Army lingo that has only turned up in post-9/11 reporting. This WSJ article on the Army's interrogation school apparently first brought the terms to light: ------- Wall Street Journal, Apr 26, 2002, p. A1 (Proquest) "Fear-up" employs "heavy-handed, table-banging violence," an Army field manual says. "The interrogator behaves in a heavy, overpowering manner with a loud and threatening voice" and may "throw objects across the room to heighten the source's implanted feelings of fear." ... "Fear-down," in contrast, targets terrified prisoners. Interrogators try to calm them, asking about personal or family life, eventually interjecting the questions they really want answered. ... When all else fails, there's "pride and ego down," where interrogators belittle a prisoner's "loyalty, intelligence, abilities, leadership qualities, slovenly appearance or any other perceived weakness," the manual says. ... Depending on their personality, age and physical bearing, interrogators tend to prefer different approaches. "My favorite is 'pride and ego up,'" says Spc. Carrie Clark, 26, of Stoneboro, Pa., because "you have to make them feel good, that you're their best friend." In it, a prisoner thought to have been "looked down upon for a long time" is flattered and made to feel that by providing information, he can "show someone that he does indeed have some 'brains,'" the manual says. ------- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 11 11:13:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:13:23 EST Subject: "He's just not that into you" Message-ID: There's nothing like working 8:30 a.m. to 7 p.m. again in a room with no air. If I do this for twenty five years and save up every writing dollar I've ever earned, maybe I could afford a trip to the ADS meeting in Oakland. ... The local newspapers are advertising the signings of baseball players as "Big Unit in the Big Apple" and "Beltran in the Big Apple." So I did a little math, and to make the same money as Carlos Beltran (who strikes out over 100 times a year and who hit .258 last year), I'd have to work every day for 10,000 years! ... So I called my sister and wished my niece a happy 16th birthday; my sister had bought her a book, HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. And you swear you're gonna kill yourself, but you have to wait another month for the Chicago Tribune ombudsman to get back to you to correct what you never said. ... Anyway, the phrase "he's just not that into you" supposedly comes from SEX AND THE CITY. The Atlanta Rhythm Section song "So Into You" was very popular in the 1970s. I found one Google Groups 1999 hit, but otherwise not much. ... ... ... ... (_WWW.AMAZON.COM_ (http://www.AMAZON.COM) ) ... He's Just Not That Into You: The No-Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys by _Greg Behrendt_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Greg%20Behrendt/002-9917336-6364062) , _Liz Tuccillo_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Liz%2 0Tuccillo/002-9917336-6364062) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Approaches and/or Openers??_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.seduction.fast/browse_frm/thread/27b4b487aed4dc63/33990c448df2d894?q="not+that+into+y ou"&_done=/groups?q="not+that+into+you"&start=40&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8& c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#33990c448df2d894) ... If she doesn't nibble, or gives a brief answer, she's probably not that into you and you'll have to do all the work. That's just one example. ... _alt.seduction.fast_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.seduction.fast) - Dec 21 1999, 4:21 pm by Outfoxing The Foxes - 10 messages - 6 authors ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Atlanta Rhythm Section lyrics - So Into You_ (http://www.letssingit.com/atlanta-rhythm-section-so-into-you-z8jl3tn.html) [Ad] A Atlanta Rhythm Section music So Into You lyrics. lyrics, discussion, ... So Into You. by Atlanta Rhythm Section. Album, : Submitted by, : Dogboy. ... www.letssingit.com/ atlanta-rhythm-section-so-into-you-z8jl3tn.html - 10k - ... Hoping you'll get into me I am so into you I can't think of nothing else I am so into you I can't think of nothing else Thinking how it's going to be Whenever I get you next to me It's gonna be good, dont you know >From your head to your toe Gonna love you all over, over and over Me into you, you into me, me into you I am so into you I am so into you, ooh When you walked into the room There was voodoo in the vibes I was captured by your style But I could not catch your eyes Now I stand here helplessly Hoping you'll get into me From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 11:49:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:49:52 -0500 Subject: interrogation techniques (Mutt & Jeff, good cop/bad cop, etc.) Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:53:58 -0500, I wrote: >I don't see anything in OED or HDAS for "good cop/bad cop (routine)". >Surprisingly, I couldn't find any cites before 1973-74, in two NY Times >articles by Leslie Gelb about negotiations with Israel made by Henry >Kissinger and James Schlesinger: > >------- >1973 _New York Times_ 21 Oct. Sec. 4 (Week in Review) 1/5 Was this a bad >cop-good cop routine? Was Mr. Kissinger fixing the diplomatic deal, but >keeping Mr. Schlesinger in reserve as a threat to keep the Soviets from >taking chances? >------- >1974 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. (Magazine) 44/4 But another version is that >the two Secretaries arranged to play a good cop-bad cop routine with the >Israelis. >------- There are earlier cites for "good guy/bad guy"... 1963 _New York Times_ 7 Nov. 42/7 Other detectives interviewed explained that one carryover of the past was still used today, but to a much greater extent. It is called "good guy-bad guy." Under this system, a "tough" detective begins questioning an uncooperative prisoner. ... As the tough, or "bad guy," appears about to strike the prisoner, the "good guy" comes into the picture. He remonstrates with the bad guy and says he will take over the case. --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jan 11 12:55:44 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:55:44 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"He's=20just=20not=20that?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20into=20you"?= Message-ID: Barry, I' sooo into you, and apparently so are Alliyah (1992) and, more recently, Brit. Spears (see Google). (NOTE: "Na na na na na na!!!" is THE SONG's lyrics, not my comment on Barry's complaints about his income--by the way, who pays for all those trips to exotic places, Barry? Does New York Traffic Court pay for eating trips? You were wise to skip Oakland, though, if all you were interested in was food. There are MUCH better Vietnamese restaurants in Orlando, and much better Mexican restaurants in Durham, North Carolina.) AALIYAH LYRICS "I'm So Into You" [Chorus] I'm so into you I'm so into you I'm so into you I'm so into you [Verse 1] Baby can't you see I got a thing for you I really like the way you do the things you do Take control of me fullfill my fantasies Here's my page and number won't you get with me [Bridge] It's just the little things you do that turns me on You really turn me on And you got it goin' on I'm into you [chorus] [verse 2] My dear I feel so weak you knock me off my feet And it's good to know you love me just for me I'll be here all the time I'll never let you go There is something that I have to let you know [bridge] [chorus] [rap] Well can't you see Aaliyah's got a thing for you And the second chapter like the things you do So pull up to my bumper and I'll ride wit' you And let's go rollin' down a block or two Now add a little bass to the E Q but Now all of a sudden I gotta whisper sweet little nothing Aaliyah told me to tell you to call her (I'm so into you) [chorus till fade...] Na na na na na na na Na na na na na na na Na na na na na na na Na na na na na na!!! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 14:08:59 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:08:59 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: <51934.69.142.143.59.1105422578.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 00:49, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > But this all goes back about 15 years earlier to the disco dance craze > called "the Freak", immortalized by Chic's 1978 hit "Le Freak". From > an interview with Chic's Nile Rodgers: Which in turn seems to be a natural off-shoot of the various sexually related forms of "freak" which predate the song. I'd be interested to see if we can uncover a freaking = dancing before Chic's super disco hit. Grant Barrett From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 14:15:50 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:15:50 -0500 Subject: "He's just not that into you" In-Reply-To: <74.4ad6059d.2f1526d0@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine with one another, but he missed good Thai and excellent bistro fare in Oakland (with no SF hype or prices). He's right about the Vietnamese; I didn't try the Mexican. dInIs >Barry, I' sooo into you, and apparently so are Alliyah (1992) and, more >recently, Brit. Spears (see Google). (NOTE: "Na na na na na na!!!" >is THE SONG's >lyrics, not my comment on Barry's complaints about his income--by the way, who >pays for all those trips to exotic places, Barry? Does New York Traffic Court >pay for eating trips? You were wise to skip Oakland, though, if all you were >interested in was food. There are MUCH better Vietnamese restaurants >in Orlando, >and much better Mexican restaurants in Durham, North Carolina.) > > > >AALIYAH LYRICS > >"I'm So Into You" > >[Chorus] > >I'm so into you >I'm so into you >I'm so into you >I'm so into you > >[Verse 1] > >Baby can't you see I got a thing for you >I really like the way you do the things you do >Take control of me fullfill my fantasies >Here's my page and number won't you get with me > >[Bridge] >It's just the little things you do that turns me on >You really turn me on >And you got it goin' on I'm into you > >[chorus] > >[verse 2] > >My dear I feel so weak you knock me off my feet >And it's good to know you love me just for me >I'll be here all the time I'll never let you go >There is something that I have to let you know > >[bridge] > >[chorus] > >[rap] >Well can't you see Aaliyah's got a thing for you >And the second chapter like the things you do >So pull up to my bumper and I'll ride wit' you >And let's go rollin' down a block or two >Now add a little bass to the E Q but >Now all of a sudden I gotta whisper sweet little nothing >Aaliyah told me to tell you to call her >(I'm so into you) > >[chorus till fade...] > >Na na na na na na na >Na na na na na na na >Na na na na na na na >Na na na na na na!!! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 11 14:47:00 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:47:00 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: Nah, we depended on the girls. Doubtless it would have been different if the penis were a muscle and became larger when exercised. Then we would have had something to sing about. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:07 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Re: > >I must >I must >I must develop a bust. >I better >I better >So I can wear a sweater. >We must, we must >increase the size of our bust >the bigger the better >the tighter the sweater >the boys depend on us and so on... This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm wondering is what we *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. larry From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 16:18:40 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:40 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: This interesting guestbook was posted to BoingBoing.net yesterday: http://www.webgenie.com/Software/Guestar/Evaluation/Guestbooks/ anne901753785.html It seems to be in-house messages passed between dispatchers at an an escort service, which clearly seems to be a a prostitution ring. It also seems to be authentic. Only one interesting lexical item jumped out: POC. "Pissed off customer" was my first guess, but given the messages, it seems to be an acronym for some sort of undercover cop. Any ideas what it might mean? Here are the relevant parts: "There was a blacklist of about a combination of 20 either dangerous guys or POCS that was on the wall at the old office." "Everyone - important - it's POC night - thursdays are BAD nights. Be very, very careful. Verify EVERYONE, double check - talk to the guys on the phone for a minute and try to get a feeling about them before sending someone. Pay special attention to Coral Springs hotels, LaQuinta, etc. Have the girls check ROUND-TRIP plane tickets AND licences, if a guy is from around here and is at a hotel, that should raise a red flag - why is he not at his residence?? Also, there should be suitcases around and stuff in the room and in the bathroom. Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive hotels. BE CAREFUL!!! DO NOT SEND ANYONE IF YOU HAVE 1 TINK INKLING OF SOMETHING FISHY. BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY." "Be careful of a DAVID HARTSHORN possible POC. He has a British accent and I verified him at the hotel but when Sasha got there she suspected he that he was POC (no toiletries, luggage, didn't initiate and finally arguing about the Intent form.) He's very charming on the phone." "Also, beware of JOHN GRAGG.. we think he's a POC and when I called to verify his 2hr. appt. w/Meisha tonight he had checked out." "The call for Mackenzie at the La Quinta in Coral Springs is bad news. I did not speak to the guy, but it is Thursday night - POC night and that hotel is one of the most dangerous and the POCS have been trying to get Mackenzie for the longest time, so I'm not comfortable sending anyone there, especially tonight, but he thinks she is showing up." "Sara, that guy that might be a POC called again....Bill Caccia....I told him I was sending over Vicki and Mackenzie again but, of course, I won't send them." "DO NOT BOOK A BILL CIACCIA 2 GIRL CALL MIGHT BE POC." "Sara got a possible 'poc' call, so be on the lookout." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Jan 11 14:54:02 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:54:02 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: Larry Horn wrote:<> You don't remember, because there wasn't any thing more dithyrambic than "No pain, no gain". <> "If you would see his monument, look around." Seán Fitzpatrick Beer...not just for breakfast anymore. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 11 16:44:26 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:44:26 -0500 Subject: "Hinglish" (Hindi-English) Message-ID: article on "Hinglish"; reference found on the LINGUIST List A Hindi-English Jumble, Spoken By 350 Million http://csmonitor.com/2004/1123/p01s03-wosc.html From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jan 11 16:47:38 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:47:38 -0800 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <18493.69.142.143.59.1105394533.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after an absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but it seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in addition to its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it pronounced other than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the other words in question pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and "naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to high school with, who was British, was famous for saying "naw-she-ated," but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers I've heard--even very recently--were not all British. Peter Mc. --On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has > undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion > amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner > introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I > believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that > some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing > usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage > is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the > prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided > entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of > "nauseated" and "nauseating". ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 16:58:32 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:58:32 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1105433258@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Peter, Then you never heard me and a bunch of my kind who all use -zh- rather than -sh-. It's certainly a LH (i.e, Lowland Hillbilly) form but may have wider distribution. dInIs >I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after an >absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but it >seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in addition to >its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it pronounced other >than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the other words in question >pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and "naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to >high school with, who was British, was famous for saying "naw-she-ated," >but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers I've heard--even very recently--were >not all British. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: > >>In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has >>undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion >>amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner >>introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I >>believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that >>some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing >>usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage >>is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the >>prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >>entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >>"nauseated" and "nauseating". > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:03:53 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:53 -0600 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: [...]Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive hotels. [...] > ---------- > Check Google under "POC, prostitution." It looks like "points of contact." Gerald Cohen From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 17:15:39 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw that on the Acronym Finder, too, but isn't it too generic? It's clear the girls are avoiding the "POCs," which makes no sense if it's "points of contact." It does, however, make me think that it's something similar: that the POCs aren't dangerous but are infatuated with the girls. But why Thursday? Why should Thursday be POC night? It's clear they have customer contact every night of the week. Grant Barrett On Jan 11, 2005, at 12:03, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > [...]Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive > hotels. [...] >> ---------- >> > Check Google under "POC, prostitution." It looks like "points > of contact." > > Gerald Cohen > From gd2 at NYU.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:21:00 2005 From: gd2 at NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: well, look at the things said about poc's in what was first posted -- it sounds as if these are tips for avoiding being entrapped by undercover cops -- so mightn't poc's be an acronym for something like 'police officer customers' ??? -- just a thought... -- maybe for shift/overtime/staffing reasons thursdays are a common undercover entrapment night, at least in the jursidiction in question? greg downing At 12:15 PM 1/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: > I saw that on the Acronym Finder, too, but isn't it too generic? It's >clear the girls are avoiding the "POCs," which makes no sense if it's >"points of contact." It does, however, make me think that it's >something similar: that the POCs aren't dangerous but are infatuated >with the girls. But why Thursday? Why should Thursday be POC night? >It's clear they have customer contact every night of the week. > >Grant Barrett > >On Jan 11, 2005, at 12:03, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > >> [...]Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive >> hotels. [...] >>> ---------- >>> >> Check Google under "POC, prostitution." It looks like "points >> of contact." >> >> Gerald Cohen >> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:36:06 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:36:06 -0500 Subject: aff Message-ID: what is the meaning of this abbreviation, which I keep seeing on the Web? This set of ads is verbatim: Ads by Goooooogle Peanuts Brown for Sale. New & used Peanuts Brown. aff Check out the deals now! <----- www.ebay.com Cat Comics for cat owners Check out my daily comics Why not laugh a little today Mows.com Search for Peanuts Gang Snoopy at eBay Millions of items daily. Aff <----- www.ebay.com Free Cartoons Here Download and watch Free Cartoons All the cartoons you'll ever need! Freeze.com -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:38:21 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:38:21 -0800 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I'm sure I've heard "naw-zhe-ated" as well as "naw-ze-ated," though from different speakers. What strikes me is hearing "nawshus" from speakers the rest of whose speech would lead me to expect "naw-ze-ated" rather than "naw-she-ated," since they weren't British. I assume "naw-zhe-ated" speakers would use the -zh- consistently (i.e., "naw-zhe-ous" or "nawzhus"). Peter --On Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:58 AM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Peter, > > Then you never heard me and a bunch of my kind who all use -zh- > rather than -sh-. It's certainly a LH (i.e, Lowland Hillbilly) form > but may have wider distribution. > > dInIs > > > >> I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after >> an absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but >> it seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in >> addition to its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it >> pronounced other than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the >> other words in question pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and >> "naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to high school with, who was British, was >> famous for saying "naw-she-ated," but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers >> I've heard--even very recently--were not all British. >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> --On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer >> wrote: >> >>> In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that >>> has undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of >>> confusion amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. >>> Bryan A. Garner introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern >>> American Usage_ (I believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). >>> Garner notes that some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if >>> the new, prevailing usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect >>> and the earlier usage is no longer generally understood by anyone other >>> than the >>> prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >>> entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >>> "nauseated" and "nauseating". >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 17:52:30 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:52:30 -0500 Subject: aff In-Reply-To: <20050111123515.P56597@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I believe it's for "affiliate," meaning the ad was placed by someone who gets a cut of any business they generate for a third party. Grant Barrett On Jan 11, 2005, at 12:36, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > what is the meaning of this abbreviation, which I keep seeing on the > Web? This set of ads is verbatim: > Ads by Goooooogle Peanuts Brown for Sale. New & used Peanuts Brown. > aff Check out the deals now! From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 18:05:53 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:05:53 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1105436301@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Peter, My point was for the pronunciation of nauseous with =zh-, and I am a naw-ze-ated speaker, contrary to your prediction. dInIs >Oh, I'm sure I've heard "naw-zhe-ated" as well as "naw-ze-ated," though >from different speakers. What strikes me is hearing "nawshus" from >speakers the rest of whose speech would lead me to expect "naw-ze-ated" >rather than "naw-she-ated," since they weren't British. I assume >"naw-zhe-ated" speakers would use the -zh- consistently (i.e., >"naw-zhe-ous" or "nawzhus"). > >Peter > >--On Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:58 AM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >>Peter, >> >>Then you never heard me and a bunch of my kind who all use -zh- >>rather than -sh-. It's certainly a LH (i.e, Lowland Hillbilly) form >>but may have wider distribution. >> >>dInIs >> >> >>>I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after >>>an absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but >>>it seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in >>>addition to its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it >>>pronounced other than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the >>>other words in question pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and >>>"naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to high school with, who was British, was >>>famous for saying "naw-she-ated," but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers >>>I've heard--even very recently--were not all British. >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>>--On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer >>> wrote: >>> >>>>In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that >>>>has undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of >>>>confusion amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. >>>>Bryan A. Garner introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern >>>>American Usage_ (I believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). >>>>Garner notes that some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if >>>>the new, prevailing usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect >>>>and the earlier usage is no longer generally understood by anyone other >>>>than the >>>>prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >>>>entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >>>>"nauseated" and "nauseating". >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From orinkh at CARR.ORG Tue Jan 11 17:54:50 2005 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:54:50 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: > I saw that on the Acronym Finder, too, but isn't it too generic? It's >clear the girls are avoiding the "POCs," which makes no sense if it's >"points of contact." It does, however, make me think that it's >something similar: that the POCs aren't dangerous but are infatuated >with the girls. But why Thursday? Why should Thursday be POC night? >It's clear they have customer contact every night of the week. > >Grant Barrett > Tempting to think that it might be "plainclothes officer," except why wouldn't they use PCO (other than that it's not pronounceable as a monosyllable?). As for Thursdays: in order to spoil all the weekend trade? Orin Hargraves (who doesn't seem to have enough to do this afternoon) From dacolb at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 11 18:07:10 2005 From: dacolb at GMAIL.COM (David Colburn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:07:10 -0800 Subject: POC: a cop term? In-Reply-To: <-7786455297135469533@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: POC is COP backwards. Any chance that it's simply thinly-veiled "code" for "cop"? Just a thought. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 18:34:25 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:34:25 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: gunsel > ---------------------------------------------------------- > E.g., remember the > scene in Red River in which John Wayne says to Montgomery > Clift, "You young punk"? It had the audience of the Dugout > (actually, the Douglas) rolling in the aisles. Given what is now common knowledge about Clift, but was probably "on the down low" back then, maybe the Duke was expressing a double meaning??? From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 19:18:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:18:34 -0500 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 1:34 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: gunsel > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> E.g., remember the >> scene in Red River in which John Wayne says to Montgomery >> Clift, "You young punk"? It had the audience of the Dugout >> (actually, the Douglas) rolling in the aisles. > > Given what is now common knowledge about Clift, but was probably > "on the down low" back then, maybe the Duke was expressing a > double meaning??? > Yes. Even if the Duke himself had no idea, it's possible that the scriptwriter and MG got together for a little inside joke. Like the "Mongo! Santa Maria!" bit in Blazing Saddles. -Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 19:24:46 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:46 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's the best answer so far, given that it's the simplest and none of the people on the message board seem all that brilliant. Grant Barrett On Jan 11, 2005, at 13:07, David Colburn wrote: > POC is COP backwards. Any chance that it's simply thinly-veiled "code" > for "cop"? Just a thought. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Tue Jan 11 19:22:35 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:22:35 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: >> >Tempting to think that it might be "plainclothes officer," except why wouldn't >they use PCO (other than that it's not pronounceable as a monosyllable?). As >for Thursdays: in order to spoil all the weekend trade? > >Orin Hargraves >(who doesn't seem to have enough to do this afternoon) Why not 'police officer, covert' or 'policeman operating covertly'? Why ask this list, and not a hooker, or maybe a lawyer (who represents prostitutes, since this might be quasi-legal procedural jargon), or even, heaven help us, a cop? Oops, could this simply be 'cop' spelled backwards, so in disguise? also, where are all the puns? ('Howdoya know a poc? -by his pocmarks...') Michael McKernan From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jan 11 19:33:12 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:12 -0500 Subject: WotY in Slate Message-ID: I wrote an article about the WotY vote for _Slate_; you can see it at http://www.slate.com/id/2112150/ It was originally to be somewhat longer, so I specifically want to apologize to Allan Metcalf, Wayne Glowka, David Barnhart, and Erin McKean, whose contributions and wit now lie on the cutting-room floor. However, many ADSers are mentioned and quoted. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 19:34:48 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:34:48 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: > Yes. Even if the Duke himself had no idea, it's possible that > the scriptwriter and MG got together for a little inside > joke. Like the "Mongo! Santa Maria!" bit in Blazing Saddles. > Okay, you'll have to explain that one to me. Blazing Saddles rewards the careful viewer. I just recently found out the origin of of the name of Mel Brooks' character: Gov. William J. LePetomaine (Le Petomaine was a French music hall performer who could play tunes by expelling gas from his lower GI tract, or blow out candles from a few feet away -- them French are _so_ cultured!) From martha at FUNWORDS.COM Tue Jan 11 19:38:06 2005 From: martha at FUNWORDS.COM (Martha Barnette) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:38:06 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: A cop friend of mine in North Carolina says: >>>> I've used POC as point of contact in police work, especially when working with CI's (confidential informants). I just called a couple cop friends and asked them if they've ever heard it used in connection with a person and they have not. My best guess is that it might be a regional thing. There is a significant portion of cop jargon that is universal: CI is a good example. But there are some terms that are both regional and -- occasionally -- peculiar to that department. My best guess is that POC is some type of shorthand for "person of interest" or someone who is hot (wanted) with outstanding warrants.<<<< Wonder if the regional explanation makes sense, in much the same way that "aural brevity codes" (10-4, 10-20), mean the same thing nationwide up to a certain number (40, maybe? I forget), and then for numbers beyond that, there's a good bit of variation from department to department. Martha Barnette From katherine.martin at OUP.COM Tue Jan 11 19:58:23 2005 From: katherine.martin at OUP.COM (Martin, Katherine) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:58:23 -0500 Subject: Faro/Pharoah Message-ID: This is only tangentially related to the recent discussion about the origins of 'faro', but I thought I'd share it anyway just for the strained pun: 1905 _Ada (Indian Territory) Evening News_ 28 Dec. (newspaperarchive): "I've been reading that learned Egyptologist's account of the funeral of Rameses," said Jokely. "It's a wonder the whole place wasn't pinched." "Why?" asked Cokely. "Well, it was a Pharoah layout." [pinched = raided by the police] From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 20:41:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:41:23 -0500 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6CA@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 1:34 PM -0600 1/11/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > Yes. Even if the Duke himself had no idea, it's possible that >> the scriptwriter and MG got together for a little inside >> joke. Like the "Mongo! Santa Maria!" bit in Blazing Saddles. >> >Okay, you'll have to explain that one to me. > >Blazing Saddles rewards the careful viewer. I just recently found out >the origin of >of the name of Mel Brooks' character: Gov. William J. LePetomaine >(Le Petomaine was a French music hall performer who could play tunes by >expelling >gas from his lower GI tract, or blow out candles from a few feet away -- >them French are _so_ cultured!) I think the governor's name must be a blend of Le Petomane (the actual sobriquet of Pujol, the professional flatulist) and ptomaine. Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 20:43:38 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:38 -0600 Subject: "whole nine yards" -- another (semi) early military cite Message-ID: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1972/jul-aug/j ames.html Transcription of an Q&A by Brigadier General Daniel (Chappie) James, Jr. The moderator, who is unnamed, opens by saying: "Ladies and gentlemen, General James indicated that he would field your questions on the full range of subject material, including race relations, public information, budgeting-the whole nine yards." The linked page is HTML, not a pdf or page image, but I suppose the transcription is accurate. The associated search feature of the magazine yields no more cites, but it is a Google search of the domain, which is not always complete. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 20:54:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:54:21 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: > > I think the governor's name must be a blend of Le Petomane > (the actual sobriquet of Pujol, the professional flatulist) > and ptomaine. > Note: "Flatulist" is not in the OED, but clearly there is a need for it . . . From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 21:01:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:01:06 -0600 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: > > This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the > material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm > wondering is what we > *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the > life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. > > larry > In _my_ eighth-grade locker room, no self-respecting boy would admit to _needing_ to increase the size of his parts. Despite any evidence in the shower to the contrary ("The water was too cold -- shrinkage!"). It would be much more likely to have heard something like "Well, you may walk up and stick it in, but I stick it in and then walk up". From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 21:14:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:14:36 -0500 Subject: "He's just not that into you" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:15 AM -0500 1/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Barry, > >Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine >with one another, but he missed good Thai and excellent bistro fare >in Oakland (with no SF hype or prices). He's right about the >Vietnamese; I didn't try the Mexican. > >dInIs > The Mexican (next to the Thai and Vietnamese), while by no means memorable, wasn't too bad, at least when accompanied by a couple of pitchers of margarita. And (semi-)pace Ron and dInIs, I found the Vietnamese fine on some dishes (especially for squidophiles and when enough sambal was squeezed on), not so on others. I was quite taken with the very nice $2 Vietnamese vegetarian subs (on Italian bread) purveyed by a nearby Chinatown luncheonette; I'm sure they have a name that--as Barry would point out, although not in so many words--needs included in the OED. Nice seeing y'all, or y'almost all. larry >>Barry, I' sooo into you, and apparently so are Alliyah (1992) and, more >>recently, Brit. Spears (see Google). (NOTE: "Na na na na na na!!!" >>is THE SONG's >>lyrics, not my comment on Barry's complaints about his income--by >>the way, who >>pays for all those trips to exotic places, Barry? Does New York Traffic Court >>pay for eating trips? You were wise to skip Oakland, though, if all you were >>interested in was food. There are MUCH better Vietnamese restaurants >>in Orlando, >>and much better Mexican restaurants in Durham, North Carolina.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 21:39:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:09 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6CF@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 3:01 PM -0600 1/11/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > >> This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the >> material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm >> wondering is what we >> *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the >> life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. >> >> larry >> > >In _my_ eighth-grade locker room, no self-respecting boy would admit >to _needing_ to increase the size of his parts. Despite any >evidence in the shower to the contrary ("The water was too cold -- >shrinkage!"). It would be much more likely to have heard something >like "Well, you may walk up and stick it in, but I stick it in and then >walk up". Ah, yes--shrinkage. Is that an anachronism, or did this exist as a technical term of art before that Seinfeld episode with Jerry and George, and the incredulous Elaine ("It...shrinks??!!")? L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 11 21:39:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:39:27 -0800 Subject: "Podicissinist " (Was Re: gunsel) Message-ID: Anthony Burgess referred to such performers as "podicissinists." He seemed to think they were boffo in the Middle Ages. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: gunsel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think the governor's name must be a blend of Le Petomane > (the actual sobriquet of Pujol, the professional flatulist) > and ptomaine. > Note: "Flatulist" is not in the OED, but clearly there is a need for it . . . __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 11 22:47:38 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:47:38 EST Subject: Exergaming; Rolodex Ranger; Smash & Grab Message-ID: WOTY: I just read Jesse Sheidlower's account in SLATE. "Tsunami" didn't get a single vote for WOTY? No special mention? Would it have made a difference if 500,000 people died? One million people? Second place was "wardrobe malfunction"? ... Here are a few terms in today's newspapers. I've heard them before, but I don't know if we recorded them. ... ... ... ... ROLODEX RANGER ... METRO (NY) 11 January 2005 pg. 11, col. 1 MY VIEW by Dave Levy _Hi Yo, politics lovers-- _it's a Rolodex Ranger_ (...) When asked on NBC's "Meet the Press" recently to defend the delayed response for the tsunami disaster in SOutheast Asia, Secretary of State Colin Powell said that you can always find a "Rolodex Ranger"--someone in a card file guaranteed to back up any point of view--to criticize a government action. Most Americans would not dispute Powell; America's response, in my opinion, is generally compassionate and as punctual as possible. But when New York Times columnist William Safire remarked later in the program that he liked this new term, Rolodex Ranger, it was clear to me that we are gearing up for another round of the Republicans' favorite method of attack--the name game. ... ... ... METRO (NY) 11 January 2005 pg. 19, col. 1 _Entrepreneurs optimistic on "exergaming"_ (...) Company executives insist that "exergaming" or "exertainment"--the marriage of physical exercise and video gaming--is becoming a hot new niche, and the most bullish aficionados say it might even help reduce the nation's obesity epidemic. ... ... ... ... NEW YORK POST 11 January 2005 pg. 19, col. 5: _JEWEL_ _HEIST_ _BUSTS_ _Smash & Grabsky_ (The Russian mob has a member named Oleg Grabsky! - ed.) ... SMASH AND GRAB--59,200 Google hits SLASH AND GRAB--1.150 Google hits From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 23:05:41 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:05:41 -0500 Subject: Exergaming; Rolodex Ranger; Smash & Grab In-Reply-To: <1da.3391c600.2f15b18a@aol.com> Message-ID: Word of the YEAR, Barry. Not a few weeks. Wait a year. I've already seen 'tsunami' broadened to include even famines. dInIs >WOTY: I just read Jesse Sheidlower's account in SLATE. "Tsunami" didn't get >a single vote for WOTY? No special mention? Would it have made a difference if > 500,000 people died? One million people? Second place was "wardrobe >malfunction"? >... >Here are a few terms in today's newspapers. I've heard them before, but I >don't know if we recorded them. >... >... >... >... >ROLODEX RANGER >... >METRO (NY) >11 January 2005 >pg. 11, col. 1 >MY VIEW by Dave Levy >_Hi Yo, politics lovers-- >_it's a Rolodex Ranger_ >(...) >When asked on NBC's "Meet the Press" recently to defend the delayed response >for the tsunami disaster in SOutheast Asia, Secretary of State Colin Powell >said that you can always find a "Rolodex Ranger"--someone in a card file >guaranteed to back up any point of view--to criticize a government >action. Most >Americans would not dispute Powell; America's response, in my opinion, is >generally compassionate and as punctual as possible. But when New York Times >columnist William Safire remarked later in the program that he liked this new >term, Rolodex Ranger, it was clear to me that we are gearing up for another >round of the Republicans' favorite method of attack--the name game. >... >... >... >METRO (NY) >11 January 2005 >pg. 19, col. 1 >_Entrepreneurs optimistic on "exergaming"_ >(...) >Company executives insist that "exergaming" or "exertainment"--the marriage >of physical exercise and video gaming--is becoming a hot new niche, and the >most bullish aficionados say it might even help reduce the nation's obesity >epidemic. >... >... >... >... >NEW YORK POST >11 January 2005 >pg. 19, col. 5: >_JEWEL_ >_HEIST_ >_BUSTS_ >_Smash & Grabsky_ > >(The Russian mob has a member named Oleg Grabsky! - ed.) >... >SMASH AND GRAB--59,200 Google hits >SLASH AND GRAB--1.150 Google hits -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 23:08:18 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:08:18 -0600 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: AFAIK it is an anachronism -- I never heard the term in this specific context until Seinfeld. > Ah, yes--shrinkage. Is that an anachronism, or did this > exist as a technical term of art before that Seinfeld episode > with Jerry and George, and the incredulous Elaine > ("It...shrinks??!!")? > > L > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 23:13:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:13:15 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$54ftn5@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> >> This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the >> material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm >> wondering is what we >> *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the >> life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. >> >> larry >> > > In _my_ eighth-grade locker room, no self-respecting boy would admit > to _needing_ to increase the size of his parts. Despite any > evidence in the shower to the contrary ("The water was too cold -- > shrinkage!"). It would be much more likely to have heard something > like "Well, you may walk up and stick it in, but I stick it in and then > walk up". > Well, I've waited over half a century to get this bit of sociology out to the reading public and this may well be my chance. Strange as it may seem, back in the bad old days, the concept of "hung-ness" did not exist among the colored. And it wasn't because we were all so well-hung as to render the concept moot. As is the case with all humanity, with adolescence comes acne. However, this was not generally known among black male youths of my day. In those days, acne was known to us colored boys as "fist-bumps." Why "fist-bumps"? Well, the only term we had for masturbation was "fist-fucking." And we all "knew" that acne was one of the two side-effects of masturbation. The other side-effect - are you ready for this? - was abnormal penile growth! Therefore, if a boy was found to be unusually well-endowed, it was prima-facie evidence that said boy was addicted to masturbation, whether said enlargement was accompanied by a bad case of acne or not. And what would cause a guy to become addicted to masturbation? Well, it was obviously the result of not getting any trim (the term of choice at the Texas grade school that I attended). When he's not getting the real thing, well, a boy's gotta do what a boy's gotta do and damn the consequences. This attitude endured well into the 'Fifties. When I was in college in St. Louis in those days, a black prof of phys ed was well-known for the unusually-large size of his dork. We guys felt sorry for him, since we knew that he couldn't be getting much. It was said that women screamed and bolted for the door as soon as they saw the size of that thing. I was amused by the irony. I knew from reading porn that fictional black guys were reputed to possess extremely large genitalia, whereas, among actual black guys, a larger-than-normal dork was a source of laughter or sympathy. -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 23:34:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:34:04 -0600 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: A prior sense, apparently meaning "that wacky shit those kids are doing nowadays," without a explicit sexual component (although we all know that dancing leads to, well, you know . . . Why don't Baptists/Church of Christ/(insert your favorite conservative Southern Christian denomination) have sex standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.) New York | Syracuse | Syracuse Herald | 1912-05-05 >From a Roller Rink ad, p. 22 "ALL FREAK DANCING BARRED" "Their Married Life" by Mabel Herbert Urner | Lincoln Daily Star | 1914-04-17 p. 10/4 "Well, it will be a long time before I shell out my good money to any of these counter jumpers for their freak dancing lessons." Ohio | Mansfield | Mansfield News | 1910-12-14 >From a Dance Academy ad, p. 12 "No freak dancing allowed. " "Freak Dancing Has Caused a Complete Revolution in the Terpsichorean Artistry" [unsigned] Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1926-10-27 p. 11/4 "A concensus of opinion indicates when the freak dances were innovated last year, both young and old were then enjoying dancing, but after the jazz steps had really developed, dancing became so uncomfortable for the middle-aged and older dancers that they soon quit visiting the parks and pavilions where assembly dancing was permitted. The result is that, this year, with the Charleston, Bobby Jones and other freak steps being barred, and dancers of these eccentricities are not visiting dance places while the older, more graceful dancers have not yet realized that an effort is being made to restore the more conservative dances." "Officer Loses First Round To Dancer" Michigan | Holland | Holland Evening Sentinel | 1966-02-26 p. 6/1 "Brodie, 40, hauled Karen's boss, Henry Roman, into court Wednesday on a charge of "allowing immoral, vulgar, suggestive or freak" dancing at the discotheque." From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jan 12 00:16:31 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:16:31 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6D1@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Please remember that us American Baptists are dancin fools. dInIs >A prior sense, apparently meaning "that wacky shit those kids are doing >nowadays," without a explicit sexual component (although we all know >that dancing leads to, well, you know . . . Why don't Baptists/Church of >Christ/(insert your favorite conservative Southern Christian >denomination) have sex standing up? Someone might think they are >dancing.) > > >New York | Syracuse | Syracuse Herald | 1912-05-05 >>From a Roller Rink ad, p. 22 >"ALL FREAK DANCING BARRED" > >"Their Married Life" by Mabel Herbert Urner | Lincoln Daily Star | >1914-04-17 p. 10/4 >"Well, it will be a long time before I shell out my good money to any of >these counter jumpers for their freak dancing lessons." > >Ohio | Mansfield | Mansfield News | 1910-12-14 >>From a Dance Academy ad, p. 12 >"No freak dancing allowed. " > >"Freak Dancing Has Caused a Complete Revolution in the Terpsichorean >Artistry" [unsigned] >Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1926-10-27 p. 11/4 >"A concensus of opinion indicates when the freak dances were innovated >last year, both young and old >were then enjoying dancing, but after the jazz steps had really >developed, dancing became so uncomfortable for the middle-aged and older >dancers that they soon quit visiting the parks and pavilions where >assembly dancing was permitted. The result is that, this year, with the >Charleston, Bobby Jones and other freak steps being barred, and dancers >of these eccentricities are not visiting dance places while the older, >more graceful dancers have not yet realized that an effort is being made >to restore the more conservative dances." > > >"Officer Loses First Round To Dancer" >Michigan | Holland | Holland Evening Sentinel | 1966-02-26 p. 6/1 >"Brodie, 40, hauled Karen's boss, Henry Roman, into court Wednesday on a >charge of "allowing immoral, vulgar, suggestive or freak" dancing at the >discotheque." -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 12 00:45:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:45:07 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:08:59 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >On Jan 11, 2005, at 00:49, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> But this all goes back about 15 years earlier to the disco dance craze >> called "the Freak", immortalized by Chic's 1978 hit "Le Freak". From >> an interview with Chic's Nile Rodgers: > >Which in turn seems to be a natural off-shoot of the various sexually >related forms of "freak" which predate the song. I'd be interested to >see if we can uncover a freaking = dancing before Chic's super disco >hit. Chic's song came out in Nov. '78, by which time the "Freak" dance craze had been spreading around the East Coast for several months. Cites over the course of 1978 trace how "the Freak" bubbled up from the disco subculture in various cities. The earliest cite I've found is from March '78 in Boston's _Bay State Banner_ (included in Proquest's "Ethnic NewsWatch" database). That cite and several others below appeared in Arthur Baker's "Breakdown" column, a good source on Boston's disco scene. An April '78 Banner cite and a Washington Post feature in October indicate that the Michael Zager Band was the first to capitalize on the dance craze with a song called "Freak". --------- Bay State Banner, Mar 30, 1978, p. 15 (Proquest) It looks as if dancing fever has truly caught our city by its kicks. Such disco steppin' stompers as "the worm" and "the freak" have made an appearance and Boston has broken out in a rash of dance contests. --------- Bay State Banner, Apr 13, 1978, p. 16 (Proquest) The Michael Zager Band: the "woo-woo" people have released their first lp on Private Stock Records, which features ... two cuts that have been making some noise at Boston's discos -- "Music Fever" and "Freak." --------- Bay State Banner, Jun 15, 1978, p. 20 (Proquest) For those of you who are more in tune to LTD's funk offerings, there are three tunes that'll have you freakin' in a second. --------- Washington Post, Aug 4, 1978 (Weekend) p. 1 (Nexis) [Review of Tiffane, a disco] Dancing is effortless and evocative, technique is de-emphasized. The unorthodox "freak hustle" is a favorite. --------- Bay State Banner, Aug 10, 1978, p. 10 (Proquest) And, together, they began the "freak line." Falling right in line, Sharon Van Allston freaked with the other models and also wearing a pegged pant outfit which featured a one-shoulder qiana big top. Not one to see a lady freaking alone, Levi Downing, Jr., joined the fun modeling a leather pilot-styled jacket that cinched at the waistline. --------- Daily Intelligencer (Doylestown, PA), Sep 12, 1978, p. 24 [Earl Wilson's syndicated NY Post column] Right now, millions are dancing the Disco Freak without knowing it. The word freak is used as in "freaking out." It's a form of free-style dancing. One expert said to me, "I'll explain it." Then he said, "You can't explain it." "It's nothing," he said, "but two people facing each other making sexual movements and gyrating in time to the music as if they were trying to seduce each other without touching each other. Not a bad trick! "The hippies used to freak out to rock and roll. Freaking out hasn't changed, just the disco music is different and louder than the rock music." --------- Washington Post, Oct 10, 1978 (Style) p. B1 (Nexis) Under the blast of strobe lights, here at Tiffane's, wrists rub ribs, nylon knees acquaint themselves with gabardine thighs, fingernails rake necks, so slowly, slowly in these heavy-lidded heavings and twitchings which are the hottest new dance in town. It's called The Freak. ... Let them do The Freak, a huge animal convolvulus down there - accompanied by strangely torpid faces, the sinking lids, the pouting lower lips - it's like the ultimate 1950's dirty boogie. ... In Baltimore, at Star's disco, they call it Body Language. In Philadelphia, at The Library, it's the Freaky-Deaky. Boston's Boston Boston disco is throwing a Freaker's Formal party... Staring at the dance floor of Georgetown's St. Tropez, for instance, you can see the razor-cool formalities of the cocaine '70s giving way to, well, a couple closing on each other while the translucent floor pulses red and the sound of a song called The Freak by the Michael Zager Band rattles through the beige palm trees... At Plum, manager Mike Parrish says they get a lot of Freaking "when things get a little rowdy at the end of a Saturday night." --------- Washington Post, Nov 16, 1978, p. DC2 (Nexis) Announcements of disco parties punctuated the blaring music. As the sound began to shake the gymnasium, the college crowd sprang to its feet, discoing and "freaking" in front of seats and against the walls to songs like "Don't Hold Back if It Feels Good." --------- Bay State Banner, Nov 16, 1978, p. 17 (Proquest) The disco scene has gone through some changes over the past month--from the freakin and rockin' on the dance floors to a new above-ground after-hour club. --------- Bay State Banner, Dec 7, 1978, p. 17 (Proquest) He took the acetate plate to the club with him one night and the place went wild. "The feeling was better than going number one, says Rodgers recalling his elation and pride at seeing dancers screaming and freaking to his songs. --------- Bay State Banner, Dec 28, 1978, p. 1 (Proquest) "Le Freak" is a joke and also a lie because the Freak is not "a new dance" as it proclaims -- black kids are now doing the Rock, and only white kids think the Freak is new. Nonetheless "Le Freak" was a number one hit. --------- By May '79 "the Freak" had been elevated to public menace, according to _Parade Magazine_, the Sunday newspaper supplement... --------- Syracuse Herald Journal, May 6, 1979 (Parade) p. 18 (N-archive) Police say the "Freak," which is sweeping the nation's discos, is the most dangerous new dance in a long time. Some call it "the dance of death" or "the sex dance," others "the dance of jealousy" or "the trouble dance." When Jim Moore performed the Freak in Detroit with his girlfriend, an incensed young man named Jimmie Rogers allegedly shot him in the chest three times. Rogers has been charged with first-degree murder. In the same city, Oscar Ross is [illegible] Sharon after watching her do the Freak at a neighbor's house. The Freak is danced by partners who bend their knees, spread their legs, advance upon each other with whirling hips until they touch. At this point, some couples retreat while others improvise. [Photo caption:] Freaking couples on the disco floor. --------- --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 03:12:38 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:12:38 EST Subject: Oakland food Message-ID: We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in deseperation went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef molcajete, which was so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience of even the sause was distressing. Ugh. In a message dated 1/11/05 4:14:49 PM, Dennis Preston writes: > >Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine > >with one another, but he missed good Thai > From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 03:20:42 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:20:42 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20dirty=20words=20in=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dict=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20ionaries=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?revisted?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/16/04 10:53:07 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > No N's in sight; perhaps left to the reader/audience to insert ad libitum. > "C's U's, 'n' T's -- from whence cometh her big P's"? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 12 03:40:35 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:40:35 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in deseperation >went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef >molcajete, which was >so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience of even >the sause was distressing. Ugh. > OK, de gustibus and all that. Actually my meal there was relatively mild (enchiladas poblanas w/mole sauce), but livenable up with the salsa, and as mentioned the margaritas helped. But maybe at all the places on the block it was basically luck of the menu--a not uncommon failing of non-top-of-the-line eateries, although one ameliorated at the Thai place with its lunch buffet where you can go back for more of the good stuff. I'm willing to concede that SF would have had tastier options, but I don't want to (as it were) bad mouth what I thought was a pretty decent block of restaurants to find a few yards from the side door of the hotel. L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 04:48:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:48:12 -0500 Subject: Izakaya (Japanese Pub); Shochu (1893); "Devil's Tongue" Konnyaku Sashimi Message-ID: WOTY: Maybe there should be a December cut-off, then? -------------------------------------------------------------- � IZAKAYA--72,900 Google hits, 657 Google Groups hits (Not in OED) � � All right, so the Wednesday NY Times piece swayed me. I tried En Japanese Brasserie on Hudson Street and Leroy. � Is it the best tofu on the planet? I couldn't taste that. It comes in a small portion in a lacquered box. The place is huge. It looks like some huge movie set, not a restaurant. You can see the food preparers right before you--don't they have to wear gloves? � I was told that one specialty is "'DEVIL'S TONGUE' KONNYAKU SASHIMI." OED actually has "konnyaku"! It was bound to happen sometime. � There was an "'Omakase' Tasting Menu" for $60 that I didn't try. Get me outta this place! � Here's a recent review: (GOOGLE) http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/reviews/restaurant/10383/ (...) The latest Big Box Japanese establishment to land in town is called EN Japanese Brasserie, a great aircraft carrier of a place, which opened two months ago on Hudson Street. The owners of EN run a chain of restaurants in Japan specializing in a homey, pub style of dining called izakaya. Izakayas, typically, are small, neighborly places where groups of gruff gentlemen sip sake and eat local, rustic dishes like grilled beef tongue or boiled burdock root. You can actually get a good bowl of boiled burdock root at EN, but the experience isn’t exactly neighborly, and there’s nothing very rustic about it. (...) It turns out that tofu, in various fresh-made forms, is central to EN’s culinary identity. Tofu is to this peculiar style of restaurant what frites are to a French brasserie. It’s skimmed into thin sheets of tofu skin called yuba, or steamed in clay pots with yams and bits of crab, or scooped into lacquer boxes and served warm or chilled, with different varieties of soy sauce. (...) There’s also an esoteric sashimi made from a root-vegetable paste called konnyaku, which is infused with bits of seaweed and served on crushed ice. Dipped in miso, it has a sweet, jellied, curiously dissolving quality, like some exotic form of vegan candy. (...) Aside from all the sakes (brought to the table in pointy bamboo beakers) available at EN, you can also dizzy yourself with shochu, the fierce Japanese vodka drink, which is newly in vogue in Tokyo. I observed crowds of party-animal stockbrokers knocking back cups of sweet-potato shochu, and shochu infused with Turkish apricots, both of which tasted more or less like fiery rotgut to me. � � -------------------------------------------------------------- SHOCHU � � (OED) shochu � � A rough Japanese spirit distilled from various ingredients, including sake dregs. Also attrib. � 1938 BUSH & KAGAMI Japanalia 143/1 Saké contains 12 to 14 per cent. alcohol... Shch, distilled from saké dregs contains up to 60 per cent. alcohol. 1964 I. FLEMING You only live Twice x. 124 The herdsman..handed Bond a bottle of what appeared to be water. Tiger said, ‘This is shochu. It is a very raw gin.’ � � � � � (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WHOLESALE TEMPERANCE REFORM.; How an Island in the Sea of Japan Turned Over a New Leaf and Prospered. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 20, 1893. p. 14 (1 page): Yet they consumed annually $3,000 worth of sake in addition to shochu and other strong drinks. � � MANY INTERESTING FACTS TOLD BY MR. BRYAN ABOUT THINGS IN JAPAN BY WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYAN.Special Correspondence of The Washington Post.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 11, 1906. p. SM6 (1 page): Ordinarily this beverage contains from 11 to 14 per cent. alcohol, but there is a stronger kind called shochu, which contains as much as 50 per cent. alcohol. � � Strong Drink in far East.; SOME OF THE QUALITIES OF THE INTOXICATING LIQOURS USED BY THE ORIENTALS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 15, 1910. p. MS4 (1 page): A stronger variety, shochu, contains from 20 to 50 per cent of alcohol. Another form, mirin, is more or less a liquor. The Chinese have to alcoholic drinks--samshu and hocshu. Samshu is simply another name for arrack, but hocshu is a much more aristocratic drink. (From LANCET. Could Fred Shapiro get the original?--ed.) DRINKS IN THE FAR EAST. (Same as above--ed.) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 17, 1910. p. M4 (1 page): A stronger variety, shochu, contains from 20 to 50 per cent of alcohol. Another form, mirin, is more or less a liquor. The Chinese have to alcoholic drinks--samshu and hocshu. Samshu is simply another name for arrack, but hocshu is a much more aristocratic drink. � � -------------------------------------------------------------- KONNYAKU � (OED) koniak, koniaku Also konjak, konnyaku. [ad. Jap. ko-n-nya-ku, ko-nya-ku.] � � A local name for Amorphophallus rivieri, a large herb of the family Araceæ, cultivated in Japan for the flour obtained from its roots. � 1884 tr. A. de Candolle's Orig. Cultivated Plants II. i. 76 The konjak is a tuberous plant of the family Araceæ, extensively cultivated by the Japanese. 1954 J. M. MORRIS Wise Bamboo iv. 54 Anything edible can be put into sukiyaki. � � � (GOOGLE) Asia Food Glossary Page ... In Japan it is known as 'devil's tongue' or konnyaku. Through a complicated process similar to the making of tofu, the large brown ... www.asiafood.org/glossary_1.cfm?alpha=D& wordid=2545&startno=1&endno=25 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages � � � -------------------------------------------------------------- IZAKAYA � � (FACTIVA) Genroku menu a festival of Japanese delicacies Adriel Bettelheim; Denver Post Staff Writer 768 words 31 July 1992 Denver Post 30 English (Copyright 1992) How does a restaurant get by serving Japanese delicacies like eel, egg custard soup and cold buckwheat noodles in a city where Nipponese food is basically limited to sushi and tempura? In the case of Genroku, quite well. This unusual dining spot in an old International House of Pancakes on South Colorado Boulevard reintroduces Denver to the izakaya, those out-of-the-way Japanese watering holes where patrons swig beer or sake while downing appetizer-sized portions of steamed fish, meat stews, sashimi and noodle dishes. � � (FACTIVA) Dining out (1105). 1,276 words 24 February 1998 Mainichi Daily News English (c) 1998 Chamber World Network This cross between an izakaya and a yakitoriya has something for everyone. Sporting a quiet Japanese ambience mixed with the soft strains of jazz music, it is a perfect place to take friends for a relaxed evening. � � (FACTIVA) Cultural Conundrums / Enjoy rudeness in a 'barlet' Kate Elwood Special to The Daily Yomiuri 1,163 words 21 December 2004 Daily Yomiuri 17 English (c) 2004 The Daily Yomiuri All Rights Reserved. Gin joint, saloon, tavern, pub, watering hole, drinking establishment and good old bar--there are lots of ways in English, some perhaps a bit dated--to describe about the place where we go to wet our whistles. Pub and bar are also used in Japanese, as well as izakaya and nomiya and no doubt there are other expressions I have yet to come across. The Japanese words seem to each have their own specific nuances in terms of what types of drinks and food are served, what the interior design is like, and whether it's a place a solitary drinker might go or for convivial groups. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 12 05:43:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:43:01 -0800 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in >> deseperation >> went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef >> molcajete, which was >> so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience >> of even >> the sause was distressing. Ugh. >> > OK, de gustibus and all that... > ...I'm willing to concede that SF would have had > tastier options, but I don't want to (as it were) bad mouth what I > thought was a pretty decent block of restaurants to find a few yards > from the side door of the hotel. until very recently, sf wouldn't have had anything like this variety within a few blocks of the hotel. now there are the restaurants in the ferry building and in soma. but to get ethnic variety or fabulous high-end food you have to go a significant distance from the hyatt recency. similarly in most of the other cities we meet in. it's also true that ethnic neighborhoods have a big range of places. you can get routine or even truly bad food (including dim sum) at dozens of places in sf's chinatown. within a mile or two of the hotel in oakland there were truly fabulous restaurants. for instance, jojo, where i was provided dinner on saturday night. it's about as far from the hotel as zuni is from the hyatt regency in sf. roughly comparable, though jojo is much more intimate than zuni. similar observations about the hotels we routinely go to in nyc, chicago, and l.a. in san diego, we're *way* off the beaten track. i've been amazed how downtown oakland has preserved most of the ethnic neighborhoods and turned slum land back into a mixture of renovated buildings and new development (like the marriott). [fairness statement: my step-brother dennis power is the director of the Oakland Museum of California, which i think is a really cool museum.] i'm going on to this extent because i thought the location was great and that the hotel went to extraordinary lengths to suit us (LSA, ADS, ANS, NAHOLS, SSILA, and SPCL), in ways that no other hotel (in my roughly 40 years of having a hand in such arrangements) has. i want to go back. (ok, yes, the drive from palo alto to downtown oakland is *much* easier than the drive from palo alto to market st. and the embarcadero in sf. but i've been in love with downtown sf for, oh, about 40 years, so i don't think i can be accused of bias towards the ease of oakland.) arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 05:45:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:45:21 -0500 Subject: Mandarinquat (Mandarin orange + kumquat) Message-ID: MANDARINQUAT--58 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit For those who love "pluot" and "plumcot" and "pomato" and "citrange" and "tangelo," this one's for you. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/dining/12QUAT.html Mandarinquat is the clunky if accurate name coined for this small citrus hybrid, a cross between a mandarin orange and a kumquat. It is similar to calamansi, an ancient Asian cross between the two fruits that is rounder and often green, and tastes pretty much the same. Each mandarinquat yields a generous tablespoon of lip-smacking, tart juice. It is a good substitute for Seville or sour oranges in dishes like duck à l'orange. The skin, however, has the tender sweetness of kumquat, so simmer strips of the peel in sugar syrup to garnish the duck. A pound of them, easily a dozen, is $9.99 at Agata & Valentina and the Orchard in Midwood, Brooklyn, and $12.99 at Eli's Manhattan and the Vinegar Factory. (FACTIVA) Life And Arts A RARE TREAT 148 words 13 June 2003 Seattle Post-Intelligencer FINAL G1 English Copyright (c) 2003 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. Mandarinquats quietly hit town a few weeks ago. Mandarin-what? Mandarinquat. It's a cross between a mandarin orange and a kumquat. It resembles a huge kumquat and is maybe a couple of inches long. The juicy-tart pulp is balanced by the sweetness of the edible rind. Because of the short season and limited crop (only two acres of it are grown in Southern California), Seattle received fewer than 10 cases. A few lucky chefs, such as Seastar's John Howie, have had the chance to play with mandarinquats. Howie garnishes oysters with a sliver of the fruit and offers a white chocolate mandarinquat cheesecake for dessert. Look for dishes using this lovely citrus at Cassis Bistro, marjorie, the Golf Club at Newcastle, and from Lowell- Hunt Catering. Mandarinquats are still "experimental" and not available yet for retail. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 08:03:29 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:03:29 -0500 Subject: Dough Nuts, Crullers (1802) Message-ID: (OED) doughnut 1. A small spongy cake made of dough (usually sweetened and spiced), and fried or boiled in lard. Freq. made in the shape of a thick ring. 1809 W. IRVING Knickerb. (1861) 90 An enormous dish of balls of sweetened dough, fried in hog's fat, and called doughnuts, or olykoeks. 1847 THOREAU in Atlantic Monthly June (1892) 757 The window was..the size of an oblong doughnut, and about as opaque. 1861 R. F. BURTON City of Saints 104 note, The Dough-nut is properly speaking, a small roundish cake made of flour, eggs, and sugar, moistened with milk and boiled in lard. 1870 HAZLITT Brand's Pop. Antiq. I. 48 At Baldock, Herts, the children call..[Shrove Tuesday] Dough-nut Day, from the small cakes fried in brass skillets over the fire with hog's lard. http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq1.html#doughnuts "Doughnuts are deep-fried cakes with a long European history and roots in still earlier Middle Eastern cuisine. They were introduced to America by the Dutch in New Newtherland as oliekoecken (oil cakes or fried cakes)...The were eaten during the Dutch Christmas season...and for special occasions throughout the year. Once in the New World, the Dutch replaced their frying oil with the preferred lard (far more available here), as it produced a tender and greaseless crust. The other ethnic groups brought their own doughnut variations. The Pennsylvania Dutch and the Moravians who settled in North Carolina made fastnachts on Shrove Tuesday, and the French established beignets in New Orleans. Ultimately, the English American cooks adopted them as well. By 1845 doughtnuts appeared in American Cookbooks as staples, and the weekly Saturday baking (breads, cakes, and ies) included doughtnut frying. In this same antebellum period, two changes in technology contributed to a basic alteration of the doughnut. Chemical leavening (notably baking powder) was substituted for yeast, producing a more cakelike and less breadlike product. In the same era inexpensive tin doughnut cutters with holes were manufactured commercially and sold widely." ---Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith [Oxford University Press:New York] 2004 (p. 408) (OED) cruller [app. a. Du. cruller, f. crullen to curl: cf. EFris. kruller curl, paper-curl, LG. kroll-koken wafer-cakes.] A cake cut from dough containing eggs, butter, sugar, etc., twisted or curled into various shapes, and fried to crispness in lard or oil. 1818 W. IRVING Sketch-Bk., Leg. Sleepy Hollow, The doughty dough-nut..the crisp and crumbling cruller. 1866 HOWELLS Venet. Life vi, A species of cruller, fried in oil, which has all seasons for its own. 1890 G. RUDMANI Royal Baker (N.Y.) 8 [Recipe]. -------------------------------------------------------------- 10,000 years. To earn as much money as a baseball player. 10,000 years of work. 10,000 years of parking tickets. My food etymology earnings will never make me enough money to actually buy a single doughnut or cruller, but here goes. The origin of two great American foods. (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) Paper: Commercial Advertiser.; Date: 1802-12-13; Vol: VI; Iss: 1610; Page: [2]; By G. & R. WAITE, price 75 cents, handsomely bound in red, for the pocket THE FRUGAL HOUSEWIFE, OR COMPLETE WOMAN COOK; (...) An Appendix, containing receipts for making Pumpkin-Pie, Dough Nuts, Sausages, Blood Puddings, Cranberry-Tarts, Peach Sweetmeats, Pear do. Quince do. Green Gage do.; to pickle Peppers and Beets; to make Maple Suage, Maple Molasses, Maple Beer, Spruce Beer out of the essence, do. out of Shred Spruce; to make Pork-Pie, Bath Pudding, Pot-Pie, Short Gingerbread, Wharfles, Crullers; methods of raising Turkies, method of destroying the putrid smell which meat acquires during hot weather, &c. &c.; together with a Bill of Fare for every month in the year. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 11:48:34 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:48:34 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Oakland=20food?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/12/05 12:43:28 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > i'm going on to this extent because i thought the location was great > and that the hotel went to extraordinary lengths to suit us (LSA, ADS, > ANS, NAHOLS, SSILA, and SPCL), in ways that no other hotel (in my > roughly 40 years of having a hand in such arrangements) has.  i want to > go back. > > I agree with Arnold about this. The hotel staff was outstanding, and it WAS nice to be able to get to such a variety of restaurants within easy walking distance. The food at the Marriott itself was good, too, for that matter. The fact that the Vietnamese and Mexican food did not quite come up to Orlando/Durham standards has to take into account that in Orlando and Durham I know where to go. There is also some bad food in Orlando (which has NO really good Mexican or Chinese that I have found, not anywhere) and Durham. It was a WONDERFUL conference. Congratulations to all who planned this event. From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jan 12 12:26:10 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:26:10 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, Too bad you didn't wait longer; the soups at Siam Bay were really delicious, and the BBQ mussels came with a hot pepper garlic sauce even garlicky enough for me. (Remember, my family home is not that far from Transylvania, and I've got to keep vampires away, especially important at LSA meetings.) Only the stuffed chicken wings were slightly overcooked. All in all about an 8 (on a 10 scale). They were simply overwhelmed by too much bidness. I'd like to go back now that all the linguists have gone back to where they belong. The real find in Oakland was Soizic, an Asian-owned, Latino cooked, Middle-Eastern served French Bistro. Seafood ravioli, seared tuna, fried escolar, squash soup - everything we had was delicious (went twice). Plenty of stuff for veggie-snappers, and an good wine list (with plenty of choices under $40, some even under $30). Corner of 3rd and Broadway (entrance around the corner on 3rd; looks like a deserted white stone block warehouse from Broadway). dInIs >We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in deseperation >went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef >molcajete, which was >so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience of even >the sause was distressing. Ugh. > >In a message dated 1/11/05 4:14:49 PM, Dennis Preston writes: > > >> >Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine >> >with one another, but he missed good Thai >> From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 12 14:37:14 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:37:14 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_Oakland_food?= In-Reply-To: <27.69790a79.2f166892@aol.com> Message-ID: > I agree with Arnold about this. The hotel staff was > outstanding, and it WAS > nice to be able to get to such a variety of restaurants within > easy walking > distance. The food at the Marriott itself was good, too, for that > matter. The > fact that the Vietnamese and Mexican food did not quite come up to > Orlando/Durham standards has to take into account that in Orlando > and Durham I know where > to go. There is also some bad food in Orlando (which has NO really good > Mexican or Chinese that I have found, not anywhere) and Durham. I'm not sure what restaurants you're referring to. Le Cheval, which despite the name is a Vietnamese restaurant near the hotel, is quite good (or at least it was, I haven't been there in a few years). Some of us also went out to the Mexicali Rose, which was passable but nothing to write home about. There is also some superb Chinese nearby, but as Ron says you have to know where to go. I don't know downtown Oakland that well, but there are some top-notch restaurants further afield in the city and in Berkeley, and at very good prices. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net, http://www.wilton.net From stevekl at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 12 14:41:41 2005 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:41:41 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of us went down to 7th Street, which seemed to be a block further than most hotel traffic would go, and went to a sushi place (Sui Sui K) where we got all you could eat sushi for $9.95 per person. And it was really good! From packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 12 15:11:24 2005 From: packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM (=?iso-8859-1?B?VmFs6XJpYSBTb3V6YQ==?=) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:11:24 -0500 Subject: Word of the Year: A Proposal Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 12 15:19:28 2005 From: packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM (=?iso-8859-1?B?VmFs6XJpYSBTb3V6YQ==?=) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:19:28 -0500 Subject: Proposal Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 12 15:37:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:37:01 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:37 AM -0800 1/12/05, Dave Wilton wrote: > > I agree with Arnold about this. The hotel staff was >> outstanding, and it WAS >> nice to be able to get to such a variety of restaurants within >> easy walking >> distance. The food at the Marriott itself was good, too, for that >> matter. The >> fact that the Vietnamese and Mexican food did not quite come up to >> Orlando/Durham standards has to take into account that in Orlando >> and Durham I know where >> to go. There is also some bad food in Orlando (which has NO really good >> Mexican or Chinese that I have found, not anywhere) and Durham. > >I'm not sure what restaurants you're referring to. Le Cheval, which despite >the name is a Vietnamese restaurant near the hotel, is quite good (or at >least it was, I haven't been there in a few years). Thanks for the (ahem) feedback, everyone--I'll have to save these messages for what I also hope will be a next LSA/ADS meeting in our lifetime. As for the somewhat maligned Le Cheval, besides their nice squid dishes, I very much liked their red snapper with okra, a dish which they may offer in Durham and Orlando but which I've never encountered in the northern cities Vietnamese/Thai joints I know. larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 12 17:17:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:17:57 -0800 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: "Freak" dancing in its current sense could have evolved at any time since "freak-out" days of the late sixties when "freak" was a big word. Meanwhile, a recent episode of the syndicated reality freak show "Elimidate" (urgent viewing for those who doubt we live in the End Times) featured two young women on a dance floor being urged to "do the lesbian dance!" Perhaps a folk holdover from idyllic days on Lesbos (goak), this turned out to be the smae rhythmical butt-to-bellybutton feminine writhing that created new fans of Sharon Stone in the film "Basic Instinct" (Paul Verhoeven, 1992). On the same dance floor, a self-described "shy daddy's girl" from Long Island demonstrated the unmistakably hetero step de jour with her guy of the hour which, had it been taped even in the freaky sixties, would have landed everybody, including the producers, in jail or in the nuthouse. "Freak, that I may know thee!" JL, now flirting with Prudery. ("Hiya, Toots!") "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: Freak Dancing (1998) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A prior sense, apparently meaning "that wacky shit those kids are doing nowadays," without a explicit sexual component (although we all know that dancing leads to, well, you know . . . Why don't Baptists/Church of Christ/(insert your favorite conservative Southern Christian denomination) have sex standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.) New York | Syracuse | Syracuse Herald | 1912-05-05 >From a Roller Rink ad, p. 22 "ALL FREAK DANCING BARRED" "Their Married Life" by Mabel Herbert Urner | Lincoln Daily Star | 1914-04-17 p. 10/4 "Well, it will be a long time before I shell out my good money to any of these counter jumpers for their freak dancing lessons." Ohio | Mansfield | Mansfield News | 1910-12-14 >From a Dance Academy ad, p. 12 "No freak dancing allowed. " "Freak Dancing Has Caused a Complete Revolution in the Terpsichorean Artistry" [unsigned] Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1926-10-27 p. 11/4 "A concensus of opinion indicates when the freak dances were innovated last year, both young and old were then enjoying dancing, but after the jazz steps had really developed, dancing became so uncomfortable for the middle-aged and older dancers that they soon quit visiting the parks and pavilions where assembly dancing was permitted. The result is that, this year, with the Charleston, Bobby Jones and other freak steps being barred, and dancers of these eccentricities are not visiting dance places while the older, more graceful dancers have not yet realized that an effort is being made to restore the more conservative dances." "Officer Loses First Round To Dancer" Michigan | Holland | Holland Evening Sentinel | 1966-02-26 p. 6/1 "Brodie, 40, hauled Karen's boss, Henry Roman, into court Wednesday on a charge of "allowing immoral, vulgar, suggestive or freak" dancing at the discotheque." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 12 17:29:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:29:13 -0800 Subject: Dough Nuts, Crullers (1802) Message-ID: My grandmother, born in NYC in 1888, was certain that in her youth a "doughnut" was exclusively solid, usu. with a jelly filling ("what today you'd call a 'jelly doughnut'") and that the ring kind was invariably called a "cruller." At least in NYC when ice was delivered daily, horse droppings littered the streets, and there was no aspirin. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Dough Nuts, Crullers (1802) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (OED) doughnut 1. A small spongy cake made of dough (usually sweetened and spiced), and fried or boiled in lard. Freq. made in the shape of a thick ring. 1809 W. IRVING Knickerb. (1861) 90 An enormous dish of balls of sweetened dough, fried in hog's fat, and called doughnuts, or olykoeks. 1847 THOREAU in Atlantic Monthly June (1892) 757 The window was..the size of an oblong doughnut, and about as opaque. 1861 R. F. BURTON City of Saints 104 note, The Dough-nut is properly speaking, a small roundish cake made of flour, eggs, and sugar, moistened with milk and boiled in lard. 1870 HAZLITT Brand's Pop. Antiq. I. 48 At Baldock, Herts, the children call..[Shrove Tuesday] Dough-nut Day, from the small cakes fried in brass skillets over the fire with hog's lard. http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq1.html#doughnuts "Doughnuts are deep-fried cakes with a long European history and roots in still earlier Middle Eastern cuisine. They were introduced to America by the Dutch in New Newtherland as oliekoecken (oil cakes or fried cakes)...The were eaten during the Dutch Christmas season...and for special occasions throughout the year. Once in the New World, the Dutch replaced their frying oil with the preferred lard (far more available here), as it produced a tender and greaseless crust. The other ethnic groups brought their own doughnut variations. The Pennsylvania Dutch and the Moravians who settled in North Carolina made fastnachts on Shrove Tuesday, and the French established beignets in New Orleans. Ultimately, the English American cooks adopted them as well. By 1845 doughtnuts appeared in American Cookbooks as staples, and the weekly Saturday baking (breads, cakes, and ies) included doughtnut frying. In this same antebellum period, two changes in technology contributed to a basic alteration of the doughnut. Chemical leavening (notably baking powder) was substituted for yeast, producing a more cakelike and less breadlike product. In the same era inexpensive tin doughnut cutters with holes were manufactured commercially and sold widely." ---Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith [Oxford University Press:New York] 2004 (p. 408) (OED) cruller [app. a. Du. cruller, f. crullen to curl: cf. EFris. kruller curl, paper-curl, LG. kroll-koken wafer-cakes.] A cake cut from dough containing eggs, butter, sugar, etc., twisted or curled into various shapes, and fried to crispness in lard or oil. 1818 W. IRVING Sketch-Bk., Leg. Sleepy Hollow, The doughty dough-nut..the crisp and crumbling cruller. 1866 HOWELLS Venet. Life vi, A species of cruller, fried in oil, which has all seasons for its own. 1890 G. RUDMANI Royal Baker (N.Y.) 8 [Recipe]. -------------------------------------------------------------- 10,000 years. To earn as much money as a baseball player. 10,000 years of work. 10,000 years of parking tickets. My food etymology earnings will never make me enough money to actually buy a single doughnut or cruller, but here goes. The origin of two great American foods. (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) Paper: Commercial Advertiser.; Date: 1802-12-13; Vol: VI; Iss: 1610; Page: [2]; By G. & R. WAITE, price 75 cents, handsomely bound in red, for the pocket THE FRUGAL HOUSEWIFE, OR COMPLETE WOMAN COOK; (...) An Appendix, containing receipts for making Pumpkin-Pie, Dough Nuts, Sausages, Blood Puddings, Cranberry-Tarts, Peach Sweetmeats, Pear do. Quince do. Green Gage do.; to pickle Peppers and Beets; to make Maple Suage, Maple Molasses, Maple Beer, Spruce Beer out of the essence, do. out of Shred Spruce; to make Pork-Pie, Bath Pudding, Pot-Pie, Short Gingerbread, Wharfles, Crullers; methods of raising Turkies, method of destroying the putrid smell which meat acquires during hot weather, &c. &c.; together with a Bill of Fare for every month in the year. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 12 19:12:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:12:07 -0500 Subject: How soon they forget! Message-ID: Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read French, no doubt. -Wilson Gray From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 19:44:58 2005 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:44:58 -0500 Subject: Oakland food - Albuquerque food Message-ID: Now that our appetites have been retroactively whetted, how about proactively? LSA/ADS will be in Albuquerque a year from now, and if we have astute advance vetting, we'll know exactly where to go. We're to be at the Hyatt in A., wherever that is. - Allan Metcalf From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 12 22:18:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:18:36 -0800 Subject: How soon they forget! Message-ID: In those pricey vacation brochures, holidays in Indochina are now labeled "Indochine." The more things change, the more a rose by any other name smells different. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: How soon they forget! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read French, no doubt. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 12 23:01:10 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:01:10 -0800 Subject: the blendoid Message-ID: uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion in Oakland: ... put your balls on the table this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity associated with "balls" as in "have the balls to". (of course, actually putting your balls on the table would be both open and audacious, not to mention risky and probably uncomfortable.) this is not your usual blend, for two reasons: (a) the combining elements are not competing expressions for the same or similar meanings, but each contributes meaning to the result, which (i surmise, though grant can speak for himself here) conveys something like 'have the balls to put one's cards on the table' ; and (b) the result is not really a structural amalgam of "put one's cards on the table" and "have to balls to", but really just the former with "balls" taking the place of "cards". the closest thing to this that we've discussed here is, i think, "bunker down". in the words of jerry cohen, on 10/10/03: ----- "Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea of hunkering down in a bunker. ----- "bunker down" also might have an eggcornesque/malapropistic tinge to it, if those who use it think that "bunker" makes more sense than "hunker" (if, for example, they're more familiar with "bunker" than "hunker"). such a tinge is entirely missing in "put one's balls on the table". in any case, we have one clear model expression, and then a lexical intrusion from another expression that's floating in the air (more accurately, in the speaker's mind). a sort-of-blend, or blendoid. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 12 23:49:21 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:21 -0500 Subject: the blendoid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2005, at 18:01, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion > in Oakland: > ... put your balls on the table > this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, > candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity associated with > "balls" as in "have the balls to". I would add in "balls on the line" as a contributor. Grant Barrett From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 00:48:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:48:42 EST Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang Message-ID: HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: THE CARNEGIE DELI A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) and Allyn Freeman 171 pages, $21.95 Hoboken, NJ: John WIley & Sons 2005 10,000 years. So I said to my co-workers, to be as good as Carlos Beltran is, I'd have to do parking tickets every single day until the time of Jesus. And then I'd have to work another 8,000 years! I was so depressed I bought this ridiculous book, which should be given out for free. It's about as deep as HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. Nevertheless, there are a few items of interest. Pg. 59: DELI SLANG Pistol Pastrami Betty Grable...Cheesecake Dressed Russian dressing, coleslaw Jack Grilled American cheese, tomato Wreck 'em Scrambled eggs One with Hot dog with sauerkraut Brown cow Chocolate milk Dry No butter on toast Whiskey Rye bread Full house Grilled cheese with bacon CB Corned beef Grade A Milk Draw one Coffee Combo Swiss cheese added to any sandwich Dutch American cheese added to any sandwich Schmear Cream cheese Coney Hot dog Down Toast Seaboard A takeout order One off Plain hot dog Pg. 114: Pastrami has its own ordering nickname, "a pistol." At the Carnegie Deli, you will hear the servers calling out, "A pistol on whiskey down," (rye bread toasted) or "A pistol dressed" (Russian dressing and coleslaw on the bread). The reason is not because pastrami is the king of sandwiches and merits its own special name. You be the counterman for a moment. What would you make if you heard a server shout, "Ordering a ..._ami_ on rye to go." Did you answer, "pastrami"? Or on (Pg. 115--ed.) second thought, do you think it was "salami"? When you hear the words pistol or salami, there's never any confusion. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 13 01:22:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:22:10 -0500 Subject: How soon they forget! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well put, Jonathan! And now, as suggested by the local broadsheet, I'm going to take it on the lamb. -Wilson On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: How soon they forget! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In those pricey vacation brochures, holidays in Indochina are now > labeled "Indochine." > > The more things change, the more a rose by any other name smells > different. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: How soon they forget! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it > should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a > French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans > that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read > French, no doubt. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free! > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Jan 13 01:39:00 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:39:00 -0500 Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: >HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: >THE CARNEGIE DELI >A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS >by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) >and Allyn Freeman While there may only be a tiny bit of deli dialect in this book, I assume (and hope that ADS-L has discussed deli and short-order language in detail. Where else could we find a better test case for examining our assumptions about jargon, dialect, etc.? I have nothing except encouragment and an anecdote to offer: I first encountered short-order jargon at 'The Waffle Shop', an all-night diner-like establishment fairly high up Wisconsin Avenue in Washington, D.C., where I was a hopelessly naive undergraduate at Georgetown University in the early 1970s. Adrift in an anomic world, I often found myself eating waffles there at any hour of day or night (when I could cadge a ride that far, and had enought cash for a short stack.) The waffle irons, as far as I could tell, had never been cleaned, and bore countless layers of spilled batter outside their upright halves, but the waffles came out impeccably solid, ready for customer-added fats and sugars. What I noticed there, more than the batter strata going back to primordial times, was that my order, whatever it was, expressed however precisely in the language of the menu card, was instantaneously translated into a language which, while it resembled English, and used only English words, syntax, etc., was beyond my immediate comprehension. It was enough to make even lame-brain, disenchanted me pay a little attention: there was something very special going on there, language-wise. With my typical laziness, I of course merely noted the wonder of it all, and relapsed to my usual passivity, at least until my order arrived. But to this day, I want to learn that language, how it came to be, how it was learned by new workers, and so on. Were there enough people in the workforce who knew this language that they didn't have to hire the ignorant? Or did the cooks actually understand the 'standard English' of the menu, but disdain to respond to it? I did manage to observe that one side of the communication-interaction, the cooks, were all male, beefy guys with multiple tatoos, which led me to hypothesize that they were _all_ ex-Navy/Marine cooks, and I supposed that at least some of the lingo had come from their military service. The other side of the interaction, the middle-women, the interpreters, were all women 'of a certain age' (i.e., none as young as me, then about 20), yet able to speak both my language, and the short-order language of the cooks. This bi-lingualism would, I suppose, be considered by some to be rather limited, restricted to dealing with menu items, etc. But I wonder about that. Were there other aspects, hidden from customers? Maybe they were saying things like this 'expletive changed to the unrecognizable' thinks he wants a couple of waffles. Burn 'em or pull 'em out raw, he's being a pain in the ...' Or whatever. As far as I knew, they could be telling the cooks anything at all (but it had to include my order, since I always got the right stuff, more or less. Lazy, (as I say) me, about the only thing I seem to remember from back then was that a 'side' meant french fries. But I could be wrong about that. French fries don't really 'go' with waffles, do they? (They did serve all manner of short-order.) Hoping you'll talk this one to death, and manage to decrease my ignorance at least a little, Michael McKernan From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Jan 13 02:15:18 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:15:18 -0500 Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang Message-ID: All I can say is, I've had perhaps 50 Carnegie Deli Pastrami/Corned Beef sandwiches in my life. A meal for two. The finest corned beef/pastrami on the face of the earth. Not linguistic, merely commenting as a patron. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:48 PM Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang > HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: > THE CARNEGIE DELI > A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS > by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) > and Allyn Freeman > 171 pages, $21.95 > Hoboken, NJ: John WIley & Sons 2005 > > 10,000 years. So I said to my co-workers, to be as good as Carlos Beltran is, > I'd have to do parking tickets every single day until the time of Jesus. And > then I'd have to work another 8,000 years! > > I was so depressed I bought this ridiculous book, which should be given out > for free. It's about as deep as HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. Nevertheless, > there are a few items of interest. > > Pg. 59: DELI SLANG > Pistol Pastrami > Betty Grable...Cheesecake > Dressed Russian dressing, coleslaw > Jack Grilled American cheese, tomato > Wreck 'em Scrambled eggs > One with Hot dog with sauerkraut > Brown cow Chocolate milk > Dry No butter on toast > Whiskey Rye bread > Full house Grilled cheese with bacon > CB Corned beef > Grade A Milk > Draw one Coffee > Combo Swiss cheese added to any sandwich > Dutch American cheese added to any sandwich > Schmear Cream cheese > Coney Hot dog > Down Toast > Seaboard A takeout order > One off Plain hot dog > > Pg. 114: > Pastrami has its own ordering nickname, "a pistol." At the Carnegie Deli, you > will hear the servers calling out, "A pistol on whiskey down," (rye bread > toasted) or "A pistol dressed" (Russian dressing and coleslaw on the bread). > > The reason is not because pastrami is the king of sandwiches and merits its > own special name. You be the counterman for a moment. What would you make if > you heard a server shout, "Ordering a ..._ami_ on rye to go." Did you answer, > "pastrami"? Or on (Pg. 115--ed.) second thought, do you think it was "salami"? > When you hear the words pistol or salami, there's never any confusion. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 13 03:31:20 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:31:20 -0500 Subject: How soon they forget! In-Reply-To: <20050112221836.72147.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:18 PM -0800 1/12/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >In those pricey vacation brochures, holidays in Indochina are now >labeled "Indochine." > >The more things change, the more a rose by any other name smells different. > >JL Not just vacation brochures. One of the five choices in the Thai restaurant ghetto (there are 5 such joints within a 2 block strip) in New Haven is a place called the Indochine Pavilion (formerly "Indochine" tout court), which I've always assumed to be a bit pricier than it would have been had it been named "Indochina", or "Thai Pavilion" for that matter. larry >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: How soon they forget! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it >should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a >French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans >that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read >French, no doubt. > >-Wilson Gray > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ñ Get yours free! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 13 03:39:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:39:22 -0500 Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang In-Reply-To: <1e9.33345876.2f171f6a@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:48 PM -0500 1/12/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: >THE CARNEGIE DELI >A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS >by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) >and Allyn Freeman >171 pages, $21.95 >Hoboken, NJ: John WIley & Sons 2005 >Pg. 114: >Pastrami has its own ordering nickname, "a pistol." At the Carnegie Deli, you >will hear the servers calling out, "A pistol on whiskey down," (rye bread >toasted) or "A pistol dressed" (Russian dressing and coleslaw on the bread). > >The reason is not because pastrami is the king of sandwiches and merits its >own special name. You be the counterman for a moment. What would you make if >you heard a server shout, "Ordering a ..._ami_ on rye to go." Did you answer, >"pastrami"? Or on (Pg. 115--ed.) second thought, do you think it was "salami"? >When you hear the words pistol or salami, there's never any confusion. And of course, someone *could* have been ordering a tsunami on rye, which is therefore referred to by the Carnegie disambiguators as a tsuris. Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jan 13 03:54:25 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:54:25 -0800 Subject: How soon they forget! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it > should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a > French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans > that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read > French, no doubt. I was well aware of the connection when I made the comment. But I still think it's an odd name for a Vietnamese Restaurant. It was the marketeer in me speaking, not the historian. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 04:02:47 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:02:47 -0500 Subject: Bombay Talkie (1943) Message-ID: BOMBAY TALKIE--5,980 Google hits, 87 Google Groups hits Over the weekend, I went to get the oldest book the NYPL had on "tofu," going way back to 1975. The book was off-site. I requested it. So now it's Wednesday, and I go to the great New York Public Library, and my book...is not there. I walked over to "Bombay Talkie" (Ninth Avenue and West 21st Street) for dinner. The restaurant says that's the pre-"Bollywood" name for those kinds of movies. It was popularized by the Merchant-Ivory film title BOMBAY TALKIE in 1970, but ProQuest has "Bombay Talkie" from 1943. "Bombay Talkie" is not in the OED. The restaurant was small and somewhat busy (it was the second day), but that doesn't excuse the service. I had to wait forever to order my meal. I never got a placemat. Finally, I got a knife and fork. I never got the "raita" that comes with it. Then I had to wait forever for my check, then forever for my change. The restaurant got some big press lately for its design, but I could pick a hundred Indian restaurants in New York City where you can get cheap Indian food and get outta there. I sat at a little bar-stool type thing. The plates are rectangular, the meals small. The starters (which I didn't order) such as "beggar's purse" looked better. Another diner's date, an Asian woman, took pity on me. And I thought, how do you do, I'm Barry Popik--ah, forget it. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) The Home Front TOM TREANOR. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 14, 1943. p. A (1 page): Menaka made one exception in favor of the movies. "Bombay Talkies," she said, "often do authentic dances." (FACTIVA) Rev of film 'Bombay Talkie' 11 words 19 November 1970 New York Times Abstracts Pg. 42, Col. 1 English c. 1970 New York Times Company Rev of film 'Bombay Talkie' (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/dining/12QUAT.html?oref=login SUNITHA RAMAIAH'S idea for an Indian restaurant featuring street food has become BOMBAY TALKIE, new to 189 Ninth Avenue (21st Street). There are kathi rolls, dosas and blue-plate dishes, each $15; (212) 242-1900. (NEW YORK) http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/openings/10782/ On a Roll: Indian street food has become a legitimate New York restaurant subgenre, and the latest entrant in a newly crowded field, Bombay Talkie, is scheduled to open next week, with Aix pastry chef Jehangir Mehta as culinary consultant, Aix chef Didier Virot as wine director, and a menu of dosas and kathi rolls. Bombay Talkie 189 Ninth Ave., nr. 21st St.; 212-242-1900 (NEW YORK TIMES) House & Home/Style Desk; SECTF CURRENTS: INTERIORS For an Indian Restaurant, Birch and Bollywood By ELAINE LOUIE 176 words 30 December 2004 The New York Times Late Edition - Final 3 English Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company. All Rights Reserved. Minimalism meets Bollywood excess at Bombay Talkie, a restaurant that will open on Jan. 10 in Chelsea. ''It's a clean, modern take on Indian teahouses,'' said Sunitha Ramaiah, the owner and a former corporate lawyer. The restaurant features lushly colored paintings based on Bollywood movie posters by J. P. Krishna, an artist in Ms. Ramaiah's home state of Tamil Nadu. ''The paintings had to be prominent, and the backdrop simple,'' said Thomas Juul-Hansen, the architect, below right with Ms. Ramaiah. He painted the walls white and designed simple birch tables, black leather banquettes and a birch veneer ceiling, bottom. His one nod to ornateness is the laser-cut wood veneer wallpaper, called Marquetry, below left, from Maya Romanoff ($100 to $170 a square yard through architects and designers, 800-465-6909). Bombay Talkie is at 189 Ninth Avenue (22nd Street), (212) 242-1900. ELAINE LOUIE From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 13 05:09:38 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:09:38 -0800 Subject: the blendoid In-Reply-To: <94F4972C-64F4-11D9-818B-001124325C14@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2005, at 3:49 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Jan 12, 2005, at 18:01, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion >> in Oakland: >> ... put your balls on the table >> this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, >> candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity associated >> with >> "balls" as in "have the balls to". > > I would add in "balls on the line" as a contributor. ah, well, that makes things more complicated. if "put one's balls on the line" were an idiom, then "put one's balls on the table" would be be a straightforward syntactic blend. *but*... the idiom is "put one's X on the line" 'risk one's X', with X pretty much a free variable. so "balls" really can't be seen as coming from another formulaic expression. still, we have to grant that "put one's balls on the line", as an instantiation of "put one's X on the line", might in fact have been in gb's mind at the moment in question. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 07:20:15 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:20:15 EST Subject: "Let's play two"--from Ed Kranepool? (1969) Message-ID: (ADS-L ARCHIVES, SEPTEMBER 2004) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sun Thursday, October 12, 1972 Lowell, Massachusetts ...It's a great day for baseball. LET'S PLAY TWO." Best-Looking Ushers the Hot.....games are featured on television with PLAY-backs of the interesting incidents.. Pg. 41(?), col. 4: By SCOTT STEWART Copley News Service (...)(Col. 6--ed.) Worst Quote of Year--Chicago's Ernie Banks: "It's a great day for baseball. Let's play two." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- ... Fred Shapiro is finishing his quotations book. I don't know what he has, but Newspaperarchive added some more Chicago newspapers. I took another look at "Let's play two," leaving out "let's." ... I don't know why it was the "worst quote" of 1972. It appears in 1969. ... Did Ed Kranepool of the New York Mets originate it, "paraphrasing" Ernie Banks? 21 June 1969, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 7, cols. 1-3: _Do-It-All Banks Powering_ _Cubs Along Victory Route_ (This is a great Ernie Banks article, going to great lengths to describe his wonderful attitude toward the game, but the quote is NOT here!--ed.) ... ... ... THE VALLEY INDEPENDENT (Monessen, PA) 23 June 1969, pg. 6, col. 1: ... Kranepool listened to Yogi Berra and said: ... "We play the Cubs the last (Col. 2--ed.) two days of the season in Chicago. You know how Ernie Banks is, always happy and so enthusiastic. He always says 'it's a wonderful day, a great day to play two.' Well, I'd love to go into Chicago those last two days with a three-game lead. I'd wait until Banks came out of the dugout and I'd say to him, 'wonderful day, Ernie. Great day to play two.'" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 08:17:05 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:17:05 EST Subject: Dill Pickle (1887) Message-ID: COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: MY NEXT VACATION ... Andy "Tomato/Ketchup/Popcorn.Turkey/Tuna Fish" Smith had speculated that my next trip would be to Bora Bora. The facts are, the dollar is lousy, and I've been to so many places, and with this tsunami devastation, there are not many places to go. ... ALABAMA/FLORIDA--Bill's finding of "the whole nine yards" at Maxwell AFB (Alabama) is interesting. However, Woodford A. Heflin wrote a SECOND AERONAUTICS GLOSSARY (1966) from Maxwell AFB, and "nine yards" ain't there. I would like a second clue before I travel down there. It would help for ProQuest to reach about 1975 with the Los Angeles Times digitization. ... DOMINICAN REPUBLIC--My next trip figures to be the Dominican Republic in February, with my sister and my autistic nephew. She spends about $25,000 for these autism treatments. I have a wonderful sister. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- DILL PICKLE ... In Wednesday's New York Times was a profile of the bachelor "pickler" of the Union Square market. Like the "pickle guy" in the movie CROSSING DELANCEY (1988, starring Amy Irving and Peter Reigert), this guy just needs love. The women at Gothamist.com agreed. ... I'm sure he's a nice guy, and much better than me. ... I had posted on the "dill pickle." Here's earlier. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2pJ1AH6xc8LWLPxDPGUfmIIFSiiXnTayT0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, March 28, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...Mix PICKLES by the Quart. German DILL PICKLES 3 Doz.for 25c. IN GLASS .1.....with the ComThe best value we have in PICKLES is A QUART OF LITTLE GHERKINS.. ... _Atlanta Constitution _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2iTaMNmKYLJYIo5lH3re/d4jbtL4V7NJxQ==) Sunday, October 30, 1887 _Atlanta,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:atlanta+dill+pickles+AND) _Georgia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:georgia+dill+pickles+AND) ...received our mixed PICKLES and DILL PICKLES in bulk. This will also save you.. Pg. 10(?) , col. 3: We have just received our mixed pickles--chow-chow--sweet pickles and Dill pickles in bulk. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2vafQ6uVLFmzRDzVk0lmrE0l7VRH4gCfYw==) Wednesday, January 11, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...PICKLES 15 cts per quart. German DILL PICKLES. Spiced PICKLES. Natural Color.. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2riChRfkj6dGnaF5yTujZi+SUhZhZCKmaUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 29, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...Mix PICKLES by the Quart. German DILL PICKLES 3 Doz. for 25c. cwri WALNUTS, ,N.....ii and de-. The best value we have in PICKLES is A QUART OF LITTLE GHERKINS.. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2pJ1AH6xc8LWh+r3T/oQ1EYtfW0/xA5jwEIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, March 27, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...Mix PICKLES by the Quart. German DILL PICKLES 3 Doz.for 25c. i-l A U I, on oil.....PiCKieS CY The best value we have in PICKLES is QUART Or LITTLE GHERKINS FOR.. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2vafQ6uVLFmzGMZji3Gv35Bdna2cJLSR6g==) Friday, January 13, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...by leiepbune Mixed PICKLES German DILL PICKLES. 15 els (juart. Spiced PICKLES.....TTCOMOMYC Block, W. C. HECSKK CO. PICKLES FOR ALL PALATES. Will Try to.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 08:53:06 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:53:06 EST Subject: Jewish Champagne (seltzer, celery tonic) (1939) Message-ID: JEWISH CHAMPAGNE--10 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits ... Arthur Schwartz's book on New York food mentions "Jewish champagne." I guess it wasn't of interest to the folks at the Historical Dictionary of American Slang. ... My SABR ProQuest connection is down at the moment. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Rutgers University Press_ (http://rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html) ... Jacob Riis, social critic and photographer. · Seltzer---"Jewish champagne". "More than the usual appreciation of the Yiddish language. ... rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/ acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html - 32k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BquK1yXjZ4oJ:rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html+"jewish+champagne"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html) Heard on NPR affiliate out of Albany NY: "So what's happening in your neck of the world?" Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Jan 13 17:39:51 2005 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:39:51 -0600 Subject: the blendoid Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arnold M. Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:01 PM > Subject: the blendoid > > uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion > in Oakland: > ... put your balls on the table > > this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, > candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity > associated with > "balls" as in "have the balls to". (of course, actually putting your > balls on the table would be both open and audacious, not to mention > risky and probably uncomfortable.) this is not your usual blend, for > two reasons: (a) the combining elements are not competing expressions > for the same or similar meanings, but each contributes meaning to the > result, which (i surmise, though grant can speak for himself here) > conveys something like 'have the balls to put one's cards on > the table' Though Lewis Caroll's original description of the 'portmanteau' called for exactly the unusual kind of process: it's what happens when you think two different things simultaneously so that parts of both are uttered. Whether the two slightly different processes (maybe 'lexical access poverty' and 'lexical access surplus'?) give rise to different products is an open question. > ; and (b) the result is not really a structural amalgam of "put one's > cards on the table" and "have to balls to", but really just the former > with "balls" taking the place of "cards". > > the closest thing to this that we've discussed here is, i think, > "bunker down". in the words of jerry cohen, on 10/10/03: > ----- > "Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the > intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea > of hunkering down in a bunker. > ----- > "bunker down" also might have an eggcornesque/malapropistic tinge to > it, if those who use it think that "bunker" makes more sense than > "hunker" (if, for example, they're more familiar with "bunker" than > "hunker"). such a tinge is entirely missing in "put one's > balls on the table". > I'd imagine that any attempt to formalize blending would have to see bunker/hunker as at least a candidate for blending, otherwise you'd have to assume some kind of blanket prohibition against blending occurring between any two items that have a difference of a single phoneme. You could call it "exchange" or "intrusion" if you like, but if the mechanisms are otherwise the same, then where's the benefit? Of course, if we don't follow Carroll's process account, but instead categorize blends on form only (why am I tempted to say 'surface structure'?), then blendoid is fine. Google gives 229 hits for "your balls on the table", with about half of the first 30 not referring to billiards and at least some of the billiards contexts taking clear advantage of the pun ("Put your balls on the table & give them a good whacking.") 134 hits for "his balls on the table" with fewer pool but more poker, and at least one positive reference each to Bush, Kerry, and Chomsky. > in any case, we have one clear model expression, and then a lexical > intrusion from another expression that's floating in the air (more > accurately, in the speaker's mind). a sort-of-blend, or blendoid. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > --Clai Rice From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 17:49:32 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:49:32 -0500 Subject: Dill Pickle (1883) Message-ID: Ah, my SABR ProQuest is working again. The ProQuest and Newspaper Archive "Atlanta Constitution" years do not overlap. It's earlier here. Back to work. Another 12,000 years of this stuff tobe a fractionas good as Jason Giambi. Solving "Yankees" sure doesa lot of good! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 1 -- No Title The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Nov 11, 1883. p. 1 (1 page) ...and talk about Pickles, where can you see such an assortment of Pickles both imported and domestic, such as mixed Chow Chow, Gherkens Red Hot, German Salt, German Dill, Pickles in barrels, half-barrel, gallons, quarts, pints, and pickles for everybody. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Jan 13 19:44:41 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:44:41 -0500 Subject: Oakland food Message-ID: At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: : We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in : deseperation went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the : beef molcajete, which was so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so : picante that the experience of even the sause was distressing. Ugh. Interesting. Actually, i wasn't too impressed with Le Cheval (especially with the claim on the restaurant guide that it was the best Vietnamese food in Oakland)--yes, Orlando has *much* better Vietnamese places. There was a Cambodian place i had dinner one night and liked it so much i came back for lunch--it was excellent. Battambang, i believe it was called. And i'll agree with others who've said that the hotel was a most excellent host. My general summary, though: This was the most Oriental food-themed conference i've ever been to, no question. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 13 19:56:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:56:54 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: <017101c4f9a8$5749e8e0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: At 2:44 PM -0500 1/13/05, David Bowie wrote: >At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >: We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in >: deseperation went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the >: beef molcajete, which was so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so >: picante that the experience of even the sause was distressing. Ugh. > >Interesting. Actually, i wasn't too impressed with Le Cheval (especially >with the claim on the restaurant guide that it was the best Vietnamese food >in Oakland)--yes, Orlando has *much* better Vietnamese places. > >There was a Cambodian place i had dinner one night and liked it so much i >came back for lunch--it was excellent. Battambang, i believe it was called. > >And i'll agree with others who've said that the hotel was a most excellent >host. > >My general summary, though: This was the most Oriental food-themed >conference i've ever been to, no question. > Same here. This was the first time I recall voting specifically for a non-Asian choice the last night (that was when we visited the Margarita-chased Mexican place down the block). Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 13 19:57:03 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:57:03 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: Further to the mysterious surname "Blomee" and the AP news story beginning "STOCKHOLM -- On hundreds of websites worldwide, the messages are brief but poignant: "Missing: Christina Blomee in Khao Lak" or "Where are you?"": I asked my nephew, a Peace Corps volunteer who assisted with the tsunami recovery in Thailand, and he responded as follows: <> Of course, Blomee could still be, so far as I know, a legitimate European surname (presumably Swedish, in light of the Stockholm dateline), but the "blow me" theory seems far more plausible. Incidentally, I didn't give my nephew the dateline when I asked the question. He knows the difference between Switzerland and Sweden. John Baker From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 13 23:37:19 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:37:19 -0500 Subject: codicil gentlemen Message-ID: COMMUNICATION. It is said that a MASQUERADE is held two or three times in the week, at the large house in Warren-street, composed of white, black and yellow, to the great annoyance of the neighborhood and public in general -- besides the total destruction of all the servants, 'prentice-boys and codicil gentlemen in the city. -- Where is the usual vigilance of our Magistrates, that this growing evil is permitted to go on? Commercial Advertiser, January 16, 1800, p. 3, col. 2 "Codicil" is italicized in the original, as is white, black, yellow and growing. I don't see a meaning for "codicil" in the OED that explains this. Perhaps the family scapegrace who is allowed a small allowance in the codicil to his unhappy father's will? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 13 23:39:33 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:39:33 -0500 Subject: codicil gentlemen (minor correction for the fastidious) Message-ID: It was "gentlemen", not codicil, that was italicized. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Thompson Date: Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:37 pm Subject: codicil gentlemen > COMMUNICATION. It is said that a MASQUERADE is held two or three > timesin the week, at the large house in Warren-street, composed of > white,black and yellow, to the great annoyance of the neighborhood > and public > in general -- besides the total destruction of all the > servants, 'prentice-boys and codicil gentlemen in the city. -- > Where is > the usual vigilance of our Magistrates, that this growing evil is > permitted to go on? > Commercial Advertiser, January 16, 1800, p. 3, col. 2 > > "Codicil" is italicized in the original, as is white, black, > yellow and > growing. > > I don't see a meaning for "codicil" in the OED that explains this. > Perhaps the family scapegrace who is allowed a small allowance in the > codicil to his unhappy father's will? > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 14 03:00:18 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:00:18 -0600 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin of "file 13" or "file (sth.) in 13," meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this expression and asked her for an example. She said that if she got sth. of no importance, she might say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in the waste-basket. Years ago I heard a similar expression: "I'll file it under G" (for garbage). Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? Any help would be much appreciated. Gerald Cohen From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 14 03:12:53 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:12:53 -0600 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <200501132200.3241e735c674@rly-na04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: gcohen at UMR.EDU wrote: > Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? > > I use the term all the time myself with that exact same meaning (I've also used "circular file" for the same thing). However, I don't know the origin unless it's an oblique reference to the fact that 13 is unlucky and therefore, many buildings don't have 13th floors (hence a "file 13" would be a "nonexistent" file? It's a pure guess and a stretch on my part.. Patti Kurtz Minot State University > Any help would be much appreciated. > >Gerald Cohen > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 14 03:13:06 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:13:06 -0600 Subject: Richard Bailey (Am.Dial. Soc.) on animal terms Message-ID: > Ads-l member Richard Bailey was interviewed for the item below, forwarded by J. McCollum to Barry Popik and then to me. Btw, the 1870s are way too early for "hot dog" = hot sausage; (first attestation:1895, Yale, discovered by Barry). As for "eat crow," Barry also treated this item in his article: "Material for the Study of _Eat Crow_: Three Versions of Humorous Story Agree That Scotch Snuff Made the Boiled Crow Particularly Unappetizing." in: _Comments on Etymology_, Oct. 2003, vol. 33, no. 1, pp. 7-9. > > Gerald Cohen > > ---------- > From: Joe McCollum > Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2005 6:51 PM > To: bapopik at aol.com > Subject: NewsEMail > > Hey, I don't belong to the linguistics listserv any more, but take a look > at: > > Talking About Words > With Prof. Richard W. Bailey > Eating crow, hot-dogging it and other animal metaphors > quick and dead. > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic09550.jpg)A spiritual > discipline known as breatharianism invites its adherents to > eat only air. Vegetarians eat vegetables. Fruitarians eat > fruit. Breatharians may be forced to eat solid food > sometimes but only because air pollution interferes with > the assimilation of the four gasses fundamental to life: > hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and nitrogen. In a better, > cleaner world, breatharians could thrive solely on inhaling > and exhaling. > > English-speaking breatharians face a further obstacle: Our > language is designed for carnivores and, everywhere we > look, we discover the traces of meat-eating. Eating crow is > accepting humiliation. Chow (and the verb chow down) comes > straight into American English from the China trade. It > means, as a California newspaper of 1856 explained, > > "> something good to eat.> "> So a chow hound is doubly a dog > since the food eaten comes metaphorically from the edible > Chinese dog, the chow chow, and the eager eating from a > famished beagle or blue-tick. > > Hot dog (a noun to describe a cocksure young man) and the > hot dog (an adjective for something pleasant or exciting) > were recorded in American college slang at almost the same > time> -> the former at Yale and the latter at Michigan, both in > the 1890s. (At the University in 1896, a student reported > that there were some hot dog drawings available.) > > > Not long after that we got hot dog! the equivalent of > > "> Bravo!> "> -> and its companions: hot doggies! and hot diggety > dog! Nowadays aviators, surfers, snowboarders and all > manner of athletes attract attention by hot-dogging, though > these verbal meanings came much later. (Somewhere in this > barking collection of words come the wiener or frankfurter. > Examples of eating hot dogs come earlier than these > meanings, and in the 1870s it was common for people to > frequent the hot-dog parlors of New York. It remains to be > seen how the sausage made a metaphor for the sassy and > smart.) > > Greedy people wolf down food or pig out. In The Merry Wives > of Windsor, Shakespeare gave us the expression, > "> The > world's mine oyster> "> for having boundless opportunities, > > having a juicy delicacy to slurp down. > > Animals are not just the eating or the eaten, of course. > Animals are everywhere. > "> Don't have a cow, man,> "> admonishes > Bart Simpson. He might as well have said go bananas, but > Bart's an animal guy. People flounder around indecisively, > weasel out of obligations, horse around having fun, > squirrel away their savings, beef up their resumé, chicken > out when courage fails, grouse about their boss, beaver > away at their job, outfox the competition. > > > Of course some of these expressions just look like animals. > The bum steer (bad advice) is probably not bovine, any more > than we should expect quacking in duck down or duck out. > But once these words come to our attention, we want the > animals to come alive. > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic30894.jpg) > > > We imagine animals. Is there a bison in the person who is > buffaloed by a problem? Do dances like the mamba and the > bunny hug actually resemble the behavior of the creatures > for which they seem to be named? Is there a baby deer > hovering around the person who fawns on her best friend or > a tropical bird squawking in the guy who parrots the ideas > of others? > > > Some of these metaphors we can be pretty sure about if > we've seen the beast involved. Clam up makes sense, but > does the mullet > "> bad hair style> "> have something to do with > the fish? Bear hug, yes, but have a gander, no. People can > be catty or turkeys or gorillas or coltish or skunks. Do > animals come to mind with equal vividness? Go bats and buck > naked are not very obviously connected with animals at all. > > > Everybody has a different piece of the language and a > different set of associations and imaginings. Some of these > animals are quick, some dead. They are all metaphors. > > (Crow image on front page from quilt at > http://www.joyfield.net) > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic08892.jpg)Richard W. > Bailey is the Fred Newton Scott Collegiate Professor of > English. His most recent book is Rogue Scholar: The > Sinister Life and Celebrated Death of Edward H. Rulloff, > University of Michigan Press, 2003> -> a biography of an > American thief, impostor, murderer and would-be philologist > who lived from 1821 to 1871. It was published by the > University of Michigan Press in 2003. > > U-M News Service Link: http://www.umich.edu/news/MT/NewsE > > From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Jan 14 03:33:58 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:33:58 -0600 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: I'm reasonably certain that I know it as pre-1980. My wife also knows it as waste-basket and she last worked in an office in 1980 (in St. Louis) but has no idea when she heard it first. Both of us are mid-60s central Illinois HS products. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 14 04:28:13 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:28:13 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin of "file 13" or "file >(sth.) in 13," >meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this expression and asked >her for an example. She said that if she got sth. of no importance, she >might say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in the waste-basket. >Years ago I heard a similar expression: "I'll file it under G" (for >garbage). > Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone >know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? > Any help would be much appreciated. >Gerald Cohen ~~~~~~ I haven't heard this, but the choice of "13" woould seem to be a normal extension of superstitions about that number. Sort of like the non-exisence of a 13th floor in some buildings: consigning it to oblivion, like dropping it in the oubliette. A. Murie From lgerrd at ROCHESTER.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 04:34:15 2005 From: lgerrd at ROCHESTER.RR.COM (Michael McGrath) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:34:15 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: Long shot: a common size garbage bag is a 13-gallon size. Mike McGrath ----- Original Message ----- From: "sagehen" To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin of "file 13" or "file >>(sth.) in 13," >>meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this expression and asked >>her for an example. She said that if she got sth. of no importance, she >>might say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in the waste-basket. >>Years ago I heard a similar expression: "I'll file it under G" (for >>garbage). > >> Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone >>know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? > >> Any help would be much appreciated. > >>Gerald Cohen > ~~~~~~ > I haven't heard this, but the choice of "13" woould seem to be a normal > extension of superstitions about that number. Sort of like the > non-exisence of a 13th floor in some buildings: consigning it to oblivion, > like dropping it in the oubliette. > A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 14 04:52:29 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:52:29 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <05ba01c4f9ea$7238b900$065f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Dave Hause > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > > > I'm reasonably certain that I know it as pre-1980. My wife also > knows it as > waste-basket and she last worked in an office in 1980 (in St. > Louis) but has > no idea when she heard it first. Both of us are mid-60s central > Illinois HS > products. I know it from 1986, which is when I entered the workforce. So a pre-1980 date is certainly reasonable. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 14 05:05:49 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:05:49 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Zanesville Signal_ (Zanesville OH), 5 April 1955: p. 1, col. 2: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From gorion at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 14 05:17:09 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:17:09 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <6711908395276628027@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: My cousin -- born (late 70s) and raised in Buckner, MO (outside Kansas City) -- has for several years had a band called File 13. What I recall of his explanation of its usage referred mainly to stopping a discussion of intimately unpleasant topics -- say someone asked about the recent death of a relative, and you tried to be game but you get sick of talking about it, you'd say "let's put that under file 13." I found that description unsatisfying but it was the best I could get. Oh, maybe he doesn't have that band anymore -- at least the domain file13.net is now taken by someone else, who calls it his "personal web trash bin". whois gives a Michigan zip and area code. O. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 14 05:51:16 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:51:16 EST Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) Message-ID: THIRD RAIL + SOCIAL SECURITY--18,800 Google hits, 776 Google Groups hits ... Wednesday's Comedy Central DAILY SHOW started off with Jon Stewart's riff on George Bush and Social Security. Bush promised that he wouldn't touch it. "Touch it?" Stewart asked. Stewart reminded viewers that Social Security was "the third rail of American politics." ... I don't know what Fred Shapiro has on this classic American political description. ... I don't know much about American political slang (I'm in the middle of ten thousand years of parking tickets, some divine punishment from God), so I turned to the expert source. That would be Oxford University Press and HATCHET JOBS AND HARDBALL: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POLITICAL SLANG (2004), edited by Grant Barrett. "Third rail of American politics" is not there!! (In fairness, Grant has been spending late nights all year on _www.barrypopik.com_ (http://www.barrypopik.com) . Oh, I jest!) ... My SABR ProQuest doesn't get the Wall Street Journal, but it does include the Washington Post. I noticed that NYU has a new Congressional full-text database, and it might be there. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Intelligencer _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2phGE4QmaoT/fSOAITjOXz7Ix/AhcDwM1UIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, August 11, 1985 _Doylestown,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:doylestown+third+rail+and+social+security+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+third+rail+and+so cial+security+AND) ...to cover. It has been called the THIRD RAIL of American politics. Two.....a statement mark- ing the 50th called SOCIAL SECURITY of the most successful.. ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3YGl/Jks4m6KID/6NLMW2kBd5KOrlaK1X0QO/gnlWXX6rqRKGZwYe0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 14, 1985 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+third+rail+and+social+security+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+third+rail+and+social+ security+AND) ...coun- the system has evolved into THIRD RAIL of American poli- touch it.....AND New Rochelle. Syracuse August 1985 SOCIAL SECURITY survives By Thomas.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) . _Reagan Tiptoes Around Some Economic Liabilities_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=120348837&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=30 9&VName=HNP&TS=1105680428&clientId=65882) By STEVEN R. WEISMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1982. p. E4 (1 page) : ... But it is no secret at the White House that in the back of everybody's mind there us another possible item for the agenda of a lame-duck session--Social Security, an issue so hazardous that an aide to Speaker O'Neill refers to it as "the third rail of American politics." Anyone who touches it gets electrocuted politically. ... _A Hand Reaches for Hot Potato of Social Security_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=112300504&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 09&VName=HNP&TS=1105680428&clientId=65882) Hedrick SmithSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1983. p. A12 (1 page) : ... WASHINGTON, Jan. 6--Revising the SOcial Security system has become such a politically lethal issue that most politicians refer to it as the "third rail--touch it and you're dead." From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 05:58:41 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:58:41 -0500 Subject: antedating of "waiting for the other shoe to drop" 1905 Message-ID: Barry took it back to 1921 in the NY Times early last year. I searched the archive, but don't believe anyone got farther than that. Using Proquest Chicago Tribune, April 16, 1905, p. D7 >>"At one time we lived under a couple for months. The man came home 'loaded' half the time, and Mark Twain's story about waiting to hear the other shoe drop was borne in upon me. He always knocked over a chair while preparing for bed, and I have waited in an agony of suspense for half an hour, listening to him prowling around in the dark looking for his nightshirt, for him to knock over that chair, and when it finally crashed down upon the floor I went to sleep happy.<< So, perhaps Twain first used this. Any takers? Ben? Sam Clements From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 06:16:42 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:16:42 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: There's a 1945 cite in the NY Times from a GI, saying "1. War. "(A) Lay off it, put it in File 13. Together with a 1955 cite saying that File 13 is Pentagonese, and "deep six" is Navy for the same thing, one concludes a military origin. SC From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 14 06:28:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:28:02 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David Feldman's book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in which he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill sergeant's marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to Feldman, suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": -------- _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his signal when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the signal [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for the players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. -------- This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The quarterback may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or third "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: -------- Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as immune from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three backs in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the backs shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a second "Hip," but always the play is off. -------- Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, aged 3, was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he was calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he changed positions and everything. -------- New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, two, three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! -------- Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole point of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise—- off-balance! They could knit a sweater between your signals!" -------- Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have evoked not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to the Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). -------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field moves hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. -------- _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin coach has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their hip-hip-hop shift. -------- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 14 06:58:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:58:53 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:17:09 -0500, Orion Montoya wrote: >My cousin -- born (late 70s) and raised in Buckner, MO (outside Kansas >City) -- has for several years had a band called File 13. What I >recall of his explanation of its usage referred mainly to stopping a >discussion of intimately unpleasant topics -- say someone asked about >the recent death of a relative, and you tried to be game but you get >sick of talking about it, you'd say "let's put that under file 13." I >found that description unsatisfying but it was the best I could get. > >Oh, maybe he doesn't have that band anymore -- at least the domain >file13.net is now taken by someone else, who calls it his "personal >web trash bin". whois gives a Michigan zip and area code. There's also , a site for a postpunk record label. More info here: . And I see that Allmusic.com lists a band named "File 13" whose single "Taste So Good" hit #37 on the Billboard dance charts in 1984. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 14 08:55:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 03:55:43 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:51:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: >Sep 26, 1982. p. E4 (1 page) : >... >But it is no secret at the White House that in the back of everybody's >mind there us another possible item for the agenda of a lame-duck >session--Social Security, an issue so hazardous that an aide to Speaker >O'Neill refers to it as "the third rail of American politics." Anyone >who touches it gets electrocuted politically. That aide, according to many sources, was Kirk O'Donnell. First explicit attribution I can find to O'Donnell is in a 1988 Boston Globe column by Thomas Oliphant. This is from a 1998 Oliphant column that was read into the Congressional record after O'Donnell died: ------ http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r105:E15SE8-10: Just for the record, O'Donnell was more than enough of a city lover and urban scholar to know about subway analogies in politics. But he was the guy, in 1981, who called Social Security the third rail of American politics; few lines have been ripped off more. ------ See also this piece by Lawrence O'Donnell, Jr.: ------ http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/columns/nationalinterest/2851/ "Social Security is the third rail of American politics. You touch it and you die." My cousin Kirk O'Donnell was the first to speak those words twenty years ago, when he was counsel to the Democratic Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill. ------ --Ben Zimmer From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 14 10:47:23 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:47:23 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O Message-ID: For those interested in the term, see The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8.3, 1993, p 109). David barnhart at highlands.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 13:14:20 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:14:20 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Round file", meaning the waste basket, is the expression I'm familiar with. I don't recall ever hearing "file 13" or "file under G". --- "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: > Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin > of "file 13" or "file (sth.) in 13," > meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this > expression and asked her for an example. She said > that if she got sth. of no importance, she might > say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in > the waste-basket. Years ago I heard a similar > expression: "I'll file it under G" (for garbage). > > Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in > 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and > not, say, 12? > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Gerald Cohen > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 14 15:21:00 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:21:00 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) In-Reply-To: <80.1f136c2f.2f18b7d4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 12:51:16AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ... > I don't know much about American political slang (I'm in the middle of ten > thousand years of parking tickets, some divine punishment from God), so I > turned to the expert source. That would be Oxford University Press and HATCHET > JOBS AND HARDBALL: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POLITICAL SLANG (2004), > edited by Grant Barrett. "Third rail of American politics" is not there!! It is, however, in OED. I'd love to get a 1981 quote, which is the date attributed to the use in the Congressional Record quote Ben posted, but for now our best is May 1982. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jan 14 15:43:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:43:14 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) In-Reply-To: <80.1f136c2f.2f18b7d4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 00:51, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know much about American political slang (I'm in the middle of > ten > thousand years of parking tickets, some divine punishment from God), > so I > turned to the expert source. That would be Oxford University Press > and HATCHET > JOBS AND HARDBALL: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POLITICAL SLANG > (2004), > edited by Grant Barrett. "Third rail of American politics" is not > there!! (In > fairness, Grant has been spending late nights all year on > _www.barrypopik.com_ > (http://www.barrypopik.com) . Oh, I jest!) Don't be a jerk, Barry. Grant Barrett From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 14 16:11:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:11:21 -0600 Subject: saucermen Message-ID: OED has 1967 for "saucermen" (under saucer, n.). This comic book http://www.cufon.org/comics/1950/SpaceWestern40.htm has a story titled "Spurs Jackson vs. the Saucer-Men" _Space Western Comics_ No.40, Charlton Publications, September/October 1952 The gallery of comic book covers from which it comes http://cufon.org/comics/ComicsGal1947-9.htm has several pictures of "flying saucers" that predate June 1947, but do not use the term "flying saucer" (at least on the front covers shown) to describe them. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 16:52:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:52:48 -0800 Subject: saucermen Message-ID: What a great collection of sub-artistic illustrations, Bill! It nearly froze my heart to see Lana Turner falling out of that saucer! And Captain Marvel beating up a potato! Wonder what happened next...? JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: saucermen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OED has 1967 for "saucermen" (under saucer, n.). This comic book http://www.cufon.org/comics/1950/SpaceWestern40.htm has a story titled "Spurs Jackson vs. the Saucer-Men" _Space Western Comics_ No.40, Charlton Publications, September/October 1952 The gallery of comic book covers from which it comes http://cufon.org/comics/ComicsGal1947-9.htm has several pictures of "flying saucers" that predate June 1947, but do not use the term "flying saucer" (at least on the front covers shown) to describe them. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 16:56:14 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:56:14 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: I guess some people were just too cheap to buy HDAS I.... JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's a 1945 cite in the NY Times from a GI, saying "1. War. "(A) Lay off it, put it in File 13. Together with a 1955 cite saying that File 13 is Pentagonese, and "deep six" is Navy for the same thing, one concludes a military origin. SC --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 14 17:38:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:38:44 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? In-Reply-To: <20755.69.142.143.59.1105684082.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David Feldman's >book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in which >he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill sergeant's >marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. > >One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to Feldman, >suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of football... > >-------- >_Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his signal >when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the signal >[he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for the >players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >-------- > >This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The quarterback >may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or third >"hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: > >-------- >Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as immune >from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three backs >in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the backs >shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a second >"Hip," but always the play is off. >-------- >Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, aged 3, >was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he was >calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >changed positions and everything. >-------- >New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, two, >three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >-------- >Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >"Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole point >of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise—- off-balance! They >could knit a sweater between your signals!" >-------- > >Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have evoked >not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to the >Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >"hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). > >-------- >_Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field moves >hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >-------- >_Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin coach >has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >hip-hip-hop shift. >-------- > > >--Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 14 18:08:13 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:08:13 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <20050114050055.1665DB296C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dave Hause says: >>>>> I'm reasonably certain that I know it as pre-1980. <<<<< Likewise, as a nominal referring to the trash basket. New York City area. Maybe even pre-1970. I always associated it with 13= 'unlucky', rather than specifically with the missing number of the floor. Semi-apropos, is anyone else familiar with "A Tale of the 13th Floor" by Ogden Nash? Untypically for him, it is in strict rhyme and meter, what I later learned is the Reading Gaol stanza. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 14 19:11:48 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:11:48 EST Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: I'm reasonably certain I heard both "file 13" and either "round file" or "circular file" in elementary school in the late 1950's. I seem to recall one teacher who consistently used at least one of those expressions . Why "13"? Because 13 is the unluckly number, and it's easy to make a mental transfer between "unlucky" and "oblivion"---other ADS-L members have suggested such transfers already. By the way, why do so many buildings lack a 13th floor while nobody seems to mind being in a building on 13th Street? I can state with some confidence that I first became aware of "bit-bucket" (a mythical place to which missing data disappears, sort of a wastebasket for computer data) in late 1969, when I first reported to the Pentagon. There was a standing joke that my supervisor Major Hodge had with a straight face put in a written requisition for a bit bucket. - Jim Landau From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 19:21:06 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:21:06 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > I guess some people were just too cheap to buy HDAS I.... > > JL Just to stupid to pull my copy off the shelf before I wasted everyone's time. RHDAS has 1941 and after, most all military cites. SC From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 14 19:27:56 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:27:56 EST Subject: shack up Message-ID: It probably hasn't made the major media markets, but down here in South Jersey we've been having fun with the Fox reality show "The SImple Life." First they were banned from /byoona/ Township, where they were originally supposed to take cafeteria jobs in Buena-Cleary Middle School. Banned! Yes, parents protested that Paris Hilton, who once did an X-rated video, was not a good role model for their kids. So Hilton and Richie ended up at Caprioni Portable Toilets, a business that cleans portable toilets at construction sites. I almost think I'll watch that episode. >From Brian Ianieri "'Simple Life' lands in Cape County" _Atlantic City Press_ January 13, 2005, page A1 with jump to page A7 It's "The Simple life," a reality-based Fox television show that puts Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie in situations that the young millionaires and their diamond-encrusted cell [page A7] phones would otherwise never encounter. They shack up with pre-selected families, and chaos ensues. - James A. Landau From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Jan 14 19:53:12 2005 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:53:12 -0500 Subject: shack up In-Reply-To: <200501141928.j0EJS7p9002680@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: On my dorm hall Fall 1968 Brandeis U. two freshmen were put together by the housing office: Phil Shack and Ted Gup. S. Goranson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 14 21:10:57 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:10:57 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >> Feldman's >> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >> which >> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >> sergeant's >> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >> >> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >> Feldman, >> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": > > thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of > football... Well-played, Larry! For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any case. -Wilson > >> >> -------- >> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >> signal >> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >> signal >> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >> the >> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >> -------- >> >> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >> quarterback >> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >> third >> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >> >> -------- >> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >> immune >> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >> backs >> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >> backs >> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >> second >> "Hip," but always the play is off. >> -------- >> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >> aged 3, >> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >> was >> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >> changed positions and everything. >> -------- >> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >> two, >> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >> -------- >> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >> point >> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise—- off-balance! >> They >> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >> -------- >> >> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >> evoked >> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >> the >> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >> >> -------- >> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >> moves >> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >> -------- >> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >> coach >> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >> hip-hip-hop shift. >> -------- >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 22:14:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:49 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: My mother uses "round file." She says it was common in NYC in the forties. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm reasonably certain I heard both "file 13" and either "round file" or "circular file" in elementary school in the late 1950's. I seem to recall one teacher who consistently used at least one of those expressions . Why "13"? Because 13 is the unluckly number, and it's easy to make a mental transfer between "unlucky" and "oblivion"---other ADS-L members have suggested such transfers already. By the way, why do so many buildings lack a 13th floor while nobody seems to mind being in a building on 13th Street? I can state with some confidence that I first became aware of "bit-bucket" (a mythical place to which missing data disappears, sort of a wastebasket for computer data) in late 1969, when I first reported to the Pentagon. There was a standing joke that my supervisor Major Hodge had with a straight face put in a written requisition for a bit bucket. - Jim Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 14 22:15:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:15:21 -0500 Subject: shack up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 2:27 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: shack up > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It probably hasn't made the major media markets, but down here in South > Jersey we've been having fun with the Fox reality show "The SImple > Life." First > they were banned from /byoona/ Re: /byoona/ There's a town in California named Buena /byoona/ Park. However, the name of the town of Buena Vista has the pseudo-Spanish pronunciation Buena /bweyna/ Vista. -Wilson > Township, where they were originally supposed to > take cafeteria jobs in Buena-Cleary Middle School. Banned! Yes, > parents > protested that Paris Hilton, who once did an X-rated video, was not a > good role > model for their kids. > > So Hilton and Richie ended up at Caprioni Portable Toilets, a business > that > cleans portable toilets at construction sites. I almost think I'll > watch that > episode. > > From Brian Ianieri "'Simple Life' lands in Cape County" _Atlantic City > Press_ January 13, 2005, page A1 with jump to page A7 > > It's "The Simple life," a reality-based Fox television show that > puts > Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie in situations that the young > millionaires and their > diamond-encrusted cell [page A7] phones would otherwise never > encounter. > They shack up with pre-selected families, and chaos ensues. > > > - James A. Landau > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 22:18:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:18:51 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote:---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >> Feldman's >> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >> which >> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >> sergeant's >> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >> >> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >> Feldman, >> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": > > thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of > football... Well-played, Larry! For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any case. -Wilson > >> >> -------- >> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >> signal >> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >> signal >> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >> the >> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >> -------- >> >> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >> quarterback >> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >> third >> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >> >> -------- >> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >> immune >> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >> backs >> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >> backs >> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >> second >> "Hip," but always the play is off. >> -------- >> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >> aged 3, >> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >> was >> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >> changed positions and everything. >> -------- >> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >> two, >> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >> -------- >> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >> point >> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise�- off-balance! >> They >> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >> -------- >> >> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >> evoked >> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >> the >> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >> >> -------- >> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >> moves >> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >> -------- >> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >> coach >> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >> hip-hip-hop shift. >> -------- >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 22:28:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:28:06 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a fifties novel. "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" Was phonological change in Middle English ever so expressive as this? JL || "Ev'ry time I stand retreat, / Jody gets a piece of meat." || Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >> Feldman's >> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >> which >> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >> sergeant's >> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >> >> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >> Feldman, >> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": > > thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of > football... Well-played, Larry! For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any case. -Wilson > >> >> -------- >> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >> signal >> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >> signal >> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >> the >> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >> -------- >> >> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >> quarterback >> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >> third >> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >> >> -------- >> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >> immune >> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >> backs >> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >> backs >> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >> second >> "Hip," but always the play is off. >> -------- >> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >> aged 3, >> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >> was >> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >> changed positions and everything. >> -------- >> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >> two, >> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >> -------- >> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >> point >> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise�- off-balance! >> They >> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >> -------- >> >> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >> evoked >> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >> the >> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >> >> -------- >> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >> moves >> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >> -------- >> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >> coach >> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >> hip-hip-hop shift. >> -------- >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 14 23:15:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:15:27 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > Was phonological change in Middle English ever so expressive as this? > > JL > > || "Ev'ry time I stand retreat, / Jody gets a piece of meat." || Jon, your example cadence sounds like one from the marines, where the sergeants seem to pride themselves in making the cadence count as unusual as their artistry in dismounted drill - marching practice - will permit. Back in the day, there was a TV show called "The Lieutenant," about life in the pre-Vietnam Corps, which opened with the sound of sergeants calling cadence. It sounded very much like your horrible example. As coincidence would have it, at that time, I was dating a former woman marine. (It's not funny, dammit! She was my best buddy's girlfriend's best friend. You know the drill.) She often commented that she enjoyed that show because she loved to hear the various countings of cadence that separated the show from the commercials. It took her back to the good old days at Camp Pendleton. Our packs are heavy / Our belts are tight / Our scrotes are swingin' from / LEFT to RIGHT -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >>> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >>> Feldman's >>> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >>> which >>> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >>> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >>> sergeant's >>> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >>> >>> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >>> Feldman, >>> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": >> >> thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of >> football... > > Well-played, Larry! > > For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended > approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" > I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is > codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any > case. > > -Wilson > >> >>> >>> -------- >>> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >>> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >>> signal >>> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >>> signal >>> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >>> the >>> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >>> -------- >>> >>> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, >>> which >>> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >>> quarterback >>> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >>> third >>> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >>> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >>> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >>> >>> -------- >>> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >>> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >>> immune >>> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >>> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >>> backs >>> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >>> backs >>> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >>> second >>> "Hip," but always the play is off. >>> -------- >>> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >>> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >>> aged 3, >>> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >>> was >>> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >>> changed positions and everything. >>> -------- >>> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >>> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two >>> three"... >>> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >>> two, >>> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >>> -------- >>> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >>> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >>> point >>> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise—- off-balance! >>> They >>> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >>> -------- >>> >>> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >>> evoked >>> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >>> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >>> the >>> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >>> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >>> >>> -------- >>> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >>> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >>> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >>> moves >>> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >>> -------- >>> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >>> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a >>> length >>> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >>> coach >>> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >>> hip-hip-hop shift. >>> -------- >>> >>> >>> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sat Jan 15 02:09:43 2005 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:09:43 +1000 Subject: hullawaley Message-ID: Dear colleagues A word has come up which looks British dialectal, but I can't track it down. A Berkshire, UK migrant en route to Australia in 1855 wrote in his diary that there had been "A regular hullawaley" on deck, meaning a hullabaloo. Can anyone help with this? is it known in American dialect dictionaries? Nowt on the web, so it could be rather local. Many thanks Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA University's CRICOS provider number: 00025B Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sat Jan 15 05:09:32 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:09:32 -0600 Subject: New-to-me: Virtual Assistant Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:46:43 -0000 From: "Ari" Subject: JOB: Professional/Virtual Assistant needed | Nationwide This is a salaried position. Must have a great work ethic and personality. Please visit: http://www.arihinnant.com/jobs.html -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 15 13:38:43 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:38:43 -0500 Subject: The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" In-Reply-To: <80.1f136c2f.2f18b7d4@aol.com> Message-ID: At the risk of providing further ammunition to a certain person's extensive complaints of neglect, let me point out that The New Yorker, 17 Jan. 2005, p. 40, has an item about the New-York Historical Society that includes the following: "The most commonly asked question is about the origin of the term 'The Big Apple.' (It seems to have started with African-American stable-hands in New Orleans in the nineteen-twenties; an earlier usage of the term, in a 1909 collection of vignettes called 'The Wayfarer in New York,' is, according to the Historical Society's official line, a red herring.)" In terms of spreading truth rather the usual etymological bullshit, the above scores pretty highly. Regrettably, however, it fails to give credit to Barry Popik for his pivotal role in illuminating this term. Fred Shapiro From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 15:45:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:45:01 -0800 Subject: hullawaley Message-ID: Unknown to me. JL "Prof. R. Sussex" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Prof. R. Sussex" Subject: hullawaley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear colleagues A word has come up which looks British dialectal, but I can't track it down. A Berkshire, UK migrant en route to Australia in 1855 wrote in his diary that there had been "A regular hullawaley" on deck, meaning a hullabaloo. Can anyone help with this? is it known in American dialect dictionaries? Nowt on the web, so it could be rather local. Many thanks Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA University's CRICOS provider number: 00025B Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 15:55:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:55:27 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Wish I could remember my source, Wilson - maybe it WAS "The Lieutenant," though I usually watched something else in that time slot - can't remember what, though. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > Was phonological change in Middle English ever so expressive as this? > > JL > > || "Ev'ry time I stand retreat, / Jody gets a piece of meat." || Jon, your example cadence sounds like one from the marines, where the sergeants seem to pride themselves in making the cadence count as unusual as their artistry in dismounted drill - marching practice - will permit. Back in the day, there was a TV show called "The Lieutenant," about life in the pre-Vietnam Corps, which opened with the sound of sergeants calling cadence. It sounded very much like your horrible example. As coincidence would have it, at that time, I was dating a former woman marine. (It's not funny, dammit! She was my best buddy's girlfriend's best friend. You know the drill.) She often commented that she enjoyed that show because she loved to hear the various countings of cadence that separated the show from the commercials. It took her back to the good old days at Camp Pendleton. Our packs are heavy / Our belts are tight / Our scrotes are swingin' from / LEFT to RIGHT -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >>> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >>> Feldman's >>> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >>> which >>> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >>> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >>> sergeant's >>> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >>> >>> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >>> Feldman, >>> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": >> >> thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of >> football... > > Well-played, Larry! > > For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended > approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" > I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is > codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any > case. > > -Wilson > >> >>> >>> -------- >>> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >>> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >>> signal >>> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >>> signal >>> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >>> the >>> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >>> -------- >>> >>> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, >>> which >>> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >>> quarterback >>> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >>> third >>> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >>> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >>> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >>> >>> -------- >>> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >>> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >>> immune >>> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >>> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >>> backs >>> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >>> backs >>> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >>> second >>> "Hip," but always the play is off. >>> -------- >>> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >>> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >>> aged 3, >>> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >>> was >>> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >>> changed positions and everything. >>> -------- >>> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >>> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two >>> three"... >>> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >>> two, >>> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >>> -------- >>> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >>> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >>> point >>> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise�- off-balance! >>> They >>> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >>> -------- >>> >>> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >>> evoked >>> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >>> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >>> the >>> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >>> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >>> >>> -------- >>> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >>> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >>> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >>> moves >>> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >>> -------- >>> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >>> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a >>> length >>> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >>> coach >>> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >>> hip-hip-hop shift. >>> -------- >>> >>> >>> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 15 17:01:43 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:01:43 -0600 Subject: The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: Any criticism for the failure of the NY Historical Society to credit Barry Popik for his "Big Apple" discoveries should be directed at me rather than the NYHS. A year or two ago I contacted Mariam Touba (reference librarian, NYHS) about Peter Salwen's hoax that "The Big Apple" derives from a story about prostitutes. The NYHS was previously unaware of the hoax and considered the story a possible bona fide deriviation. Ms. Touba was very grateful for the correction and sent me a revised treatment--evidently the one which the New Yorker has recently relied on. And here we get to my mea culpa: I never got back to Ms. Touba to thank her for the rewritten version and to mention it would be good to include specific mention of Barry. I'll belatedly try to make good on both points next week. Gerald Cohen P.S. The planned second edition of my _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple"_ will have Barry as co-author and include his very valuable material. The revised edition will be completed this summer (2005) or at the latest in 2006. > ---------- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Fred Shapiro > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:38 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" > > At the risk of providing further ammunition to a certain person's extensive complaints of neglect, let me point out that The New Yorker, 17 Jan. 2005, p. 40, has an item about the New-York Historical Society that includes the following: "The most commonly asked question is > about the origin of the term 'The Big Apple.' (It seems to have started with African-American stable-hands in New Orleans in the nineteen-twenties; an earlier usage of the term, in a 1909 collection of vignettes called 'The Wayfarer in New York,' is, according to the > Historical Society's official line, a red herring.)" > > In terms of spreading truth rather the usual etymological bullshit, the above scores pretty highly. Regrettably, however, it fails to give credit to Barry Popik for his pivotal role in illuminating this > term. > > Fred Shapiro > > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 15 18:00:33 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:00:33 -0800 Subject: birthday pants Message-ID: caught in the most recent New Yorker, "in one's birthday pants" 'naked from the waist down': Nancy Franklin, “Women Gone Wild” (review of tv show “Desperate Housewives”), The New Yorker, 1/17/05, p. 92: ----- At the same time, the stresses in the women’s lives are played for comedy (and sometimes as an attempt to get two laughs out of one joke—in two episodes early in the series, two different characters are caught outside naked, one in her full birthday suit and one in his birthday pants). ----- google had ca. 470 webhits on "birthday pants", most about pants as birthday presents, some from porn sites that i don't understand, a fair number from .ru sites selling clothes (which i also don't understand). but then, from the Moxy Fruvous (canadian rock group, very entertaining) fan site (i haven't figured out the year of posting): ----- http://www.fruhead.com/mod/forum/view-thread.php? forum_id=8&thread_id=392 I was having an argument recently with a friend about whether or not "Birthday Suit" (nakedness) could be modified to "Birthday Pants" in the event that one is not wearing any pants. Any thoughts on this? (Zacques, July 13) does that mean you can also have a birthday shirt? (siobhan, July 14) ----- and from yet another site, suggesting that "birthday pants" might refer to crotchless pants (obviously not what was featured in "Desperate Housewives", but possibly what the porn sites were going on about): ----- http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13412.html Originally posted by sweet sensation Lol !! Or crotchless ones...:eyebrow: Disgraceful words from such a pleaseant young lady :naughty: Them birthday pants are comfy, but best not go out in public in em eh. (pacman, 1/15/03) ----- arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 15 18:26:24 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:26:24 EST Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: THE NEW YORKER ON "THE BIG APPLE" ... Maybe in fifty years when most of us are dead, The New Yorker will actually cover "the Big Apple." If there still is a The New Yorker or New York. About THIRTEEN YEARS AGO, I walked into the place and asked to speak to someone, or to address my work to someone. I said there was an upcoming "Big Apple" dinner of the American Name Society, and people were still alive, and this was something they had to do. I was told that's not how they do things. There was no one I could speak to. .. Charles Gillett died ten years ago. It's a great story now. It's amazing that I'm still alive and doing parking tickets. ... I need to repair my relationship with Grant Barrett and pay him to get the 1937 "Big Apple" dance song (which I now have rights to) on the website this month. I sorry for what I said. (Talk about "third rail"!) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- MY COMPUTER ... I now get some pop-ups that I had previously blocked. I checked my SPAM folder today, and there was a rejected e-mail to this ADS-L listserv that I had never sent. The subject was "important screensaver." ... Maybe I should buy some firewall stuff and spyware stuff to clean everything out. I don't know. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TUNA MELT ... Google Answers was asked about the origin of the "tuna melt." It's interesting to see what GA came up with, without asking me or Ben Zimmer or Andy Smith. ... Google Answers incorrectly, I believe, places "tuna melt" in the very first JOY OF COOKING (the text changed many times). But hey, that's why they get paid. ... ... ... (GOOGLE ANSWERS) ... _Google Answers: restaurant menus_ (http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... I've since turned up a 1968 restaurant reference ... the mid-1960s there was a tuna melt sandwich on ... a drive-in restaurant called Pennington's, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. ... www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182 - 11k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:DEbLIiPhm1EJ:www.answers.google.com/answers/threa dview?id=454182+"tuna+melt"+1968+Oklahoma&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.answers.google.c om/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 240 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=9&did=513404422&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110577 6432&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 6, 1968. p. WS12 (1 page) : ... NORM'S PATTY MELT...79c Our Own Original Patty Melt, with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... TUNA MELT...79c Served with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... NORM'S SANTA MONICA--LINCOLN & COLORADO ... ... ... (LOS ANGELES PUBLIC LIBRARY MENU COLLECTION) ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg) ... "Melted Cheese Sandwich on Toast" The Brown Derby Coffee Shop September 1952 ... ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg) ... "PATTY MELT...95" Tropicana Coffee Shop Inglewood, CA 10/1968 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 15 19:14:55 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:14:55 -0800 Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" In-Reply-To: <9a.1dec57b0.2f1aba50@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2005, at 10:26 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ... > TUNA MELT > ... > Google Answers was asked about the origin of the "tuna melt." It's > interesting to see what GA came up with, without asking me or Ben > Zimmer or Andy Smith. > ... > Google Answers incorrectly, I believe, places "tuna melt" in the very > first > JOY OF COOKING (the text changed many times). But hey, that's why they > get > paid. i don't have a 1st edition (1931), but i do have the 1946 edition, which is (i think) the 6th edition. it certainly does not have anything *called* a "tuna melt" (or "patty melt", for that matter). it does have a recipe for Tuna Fish Sandwiches with Cheese (p. 30) -- "Broil them under a flame until the cheese is melted" -- that's in the ball park, though it isn't called a "tuna melt". as for "patty melt", this one's not in there at all, under any name. though rombauer is enthusiastic about Hamburger Patties (p. 316: "These are good--so good that one need not hesitate to serve them at any time") and offers a number of variations on the basic patty (which already includes bacon), none of these variations involve cheese. there is also no "cheeseburger". in any case, i'm guessing that "patty melt" and "tuna melt" originated as diner/luncheonette labels. that's the context where i first encountered them, though unfortunately i can't recall when, and the diners and luncheonettes of that period are all long gone. i do remember the restaurant at Whitner's Department Store in downtown Reading, Pa., where i often had lunch when i worked at the Reading Eagle (1958-61); i fondly recall their Philadelphia Pepperpot Soup, and *think* i sometimes ordered a tuna melt (under that name) there. in fact, i'm not sure if i've ever heard "patty melt" or "tuna melt" in a home cooking context. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 20:41:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:41:40 -0800 Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: Last week's New Yorker blithely noted that the "first expletive" in Bernard Kerik's autobiography, "Lost Son," "comes two words in." You're supposed to interpret this fact as a further dollop pf shame. But it's not true. The expletive does appear two words into Chapter One, but there are pages of prologue before that. A minor point, certainly, but further reflection on journalistic accuracy none the less. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE NEW YORKER ON "THE BIG APPLE" ... Maybe in fifty years when most of us are dead, The New Yorker will actually cover "the Big Apple." If there still is a The New Yorker or New York. About THIRTEEN YEARS AGO, I walked into the place and asked to speak to someone, or to address my work to someone. I said there was an upcoming "Big Apple" dinner of the American Name Society, and people were still alive, and this was something they had to do. I was told that's not how they do things. There was no one I could speak to. .. Charles Gillett died ten years ago. It's a great story now. It's amazing that I'm still alive and doing parking tickets. ... I need to repair my relationship with Grant Barrett and pay him to get the 1937 "Big Apple" dance song (which I now have rights to) on the website this month. I sorry for what I said. (Talk about "third rail"!) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- MY COMPUTER ... I now get some pop-ups that I had previously blocked. I checked my SPAM folder today, and there was a rejected e-mail to this ADS-L listserv that I had never sent. The subject was "important screensaver." ... Maybe I should buy some firewall stuff and spyware stuff to clean everything out. I don't know. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TUNA MELT ... Google Answers was asked about the origin of the "tuna melt." It's interesting to see what GA came up with, without asking me or Ben Zimmer or Andy Smith. ... Google Answers incorrectly, I believe, places "tuna melt" in the very first JOY OF COOKING (the text changed many times). But hey, that's why they get paid. ... ... ... (GOOGLE ANSWERS) ... _Google Answers: restaurant menus_ (http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... I've since turned up a 1968 restaurant reference ... the mid-1960s there was a tuna melt sandwich on ... a drive-in restaurant called Pennington's, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. ... www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182 - 11k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:DEbLIiPhm1EJ:www.answers.google.com/answers/threa dview?id=454182+"tuna+melt"+1968+Oklahoma&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.answers.google.c om/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 240 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=9&did=513404422&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110577 6432&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 6, 1968. p. WS12 (1 page) : ... NORM'S PATTY MELT...79c Our Own Original Patty Melt, with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... TUNA MELT...79c Served with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... NORM'S SANTA MONICA--LINCOLN & COLORADO ... ... ... (LOS ANGELES PUBLIC LIBRARY MENU COLLECTION) ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg) ... "Melted Cheese Sandwich on Toast" The Brown Derby Coffee Shop September 1952 ... ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg) ... "PATTY MELT...95" Tropicana Coffee Shop Inglewood, CA 10/1968 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 15 20:48:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:48:24 -0500 Subject: poor man's copyright (1988) Message-ID: Came across a website recently on "the poor man's copyright": http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poor-mans-copyright/ Most references are to the legally dubious practice of mailing oneself a work to be copyrighted and using the postmark as proof of the creation date (though the 1988 Usenet cite below simply refers to using a copyright notice without registering the work with a copyright office). The 1992 cite quoting Willie Dixon suggests that the term has long been in circulation among blues musicians and songwriters. ------- Newsgroups: news.sysadmin, misc.legal Subject: Re: No RTM trial? Message-ID: <2458 at aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> Date: 16 Nov 88 18:20:50 GMT I think Morris has to actually claim copyrights on this material in some manner, even if it is just having a listing notorized or prepending "the poor man's copyright" (a "copyright" comment at the top of the module). ------- Newsgroups: rec.games.frp Subject: Publishing Games and Copyrights. Message-ID: <2705 at naucse.cse.nau.edu> Date: 17 Oct 90 16:37:17 GMT If you plan on selling your work for royalties or a fee, to another company, then the poor man's copyright is acceptable. (That is sending a copy of your product to yourself registered mail.) Do not break the seal. The judge will do that if you ever must go to court. ------- The CVN (New Bedford, Mass.), Jun 21, 1991, p. 8 (Proquest) Let's say you then present a poor man's copyright of the song as proof. (This is a copy of the song mailed to yourself and never opened.) It won't hold up in court either, mainly because there are many ways to open and reseal a letter without showing any evidence of tampering. ------- Washington Post, Feb 2, 1992, p. G1 (Nexis) [Blues songwriter Willie] Dixon was for years master of what he called "the poor man's copyright" -- he sent lyrics and sheet music to himself as registered letters, proof that songs had been written at a particular time. ------- Associated Press, Aug 16, 1996 (Nexis) She said this fear of the business end of things perpetrates misleading information through the grapevine "where you come up with silly things like poor man's copyright" - when a writer believes that sending a script to himself proves the date the script was written because of the postmark. ------- St. Petersburg Times (Florida), Feb 6, 1999, p. 1 (Nexis) [Comic book illustrator Bruce] Miller also talked about what he called "the poor man's copyright." He told the audience that if they could not afford to register their work, they should get the work notarized and then mail it to themselves, leaving it unopened. The post office dates the envelopes, thus making a written record of when the work was complete. ------- Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, Mar 18, 2002, p. 1 (Proquest) At 18, seven years after he came up with the idea for Maggen, Vigliotti mailed the idea back to himself -- a "poor-man's copyright" -- just like he had done when he wrote songs. That way he would have an official conception date, using the postmark to show that "I started building it first," Vigliotti said. ------- Louisville Eccentric Observer, Nov 6, 2002, p. 25 (Proquest) At the post office he'd run into Theo, who had made a cassette of mixes of the songs they'd done and was mailing it back to himself. "Poor man's copyright," Theo told him. ------- Billboard, Mar 13, 2004, p. 9 (Proquest) Make sure all of your band's songs have copyright protection. Full federal registration with the U.S. Copyright Office is always advisable. Yes, you can do the "poor man's copyright" and mail yourself a CD of songs to prove the creation date. ------- Market Wire, Jul 14, 2004 (Nexis) Tom also addressed the fact that the LSA provides a legitimate alternative to the poor man's copyright. "Creative artists and individual inventors have been misled by numerous methods to get a 'poor man's copyright.'" ------- --Ben Zimmer From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jan 15 22:19:31 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:19:31 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050115204140.73455.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The discussion of "gorram" (an expletive invented by Joss Whedon for his SF series "Firefly") during the WOTY nominations caused me to notice another, similar term this weekend. On the new "Battlestar Galactica" series the characters use "frack" as an expletive, as in "Frack me!" While not as inventive as "gorram," "frack" is simpler and phonetically more abrasive. The term dates to the original 1978 series. Another term on the original series was "felgercarb," meaning, roughly, shit. "You certainly have a way of cutting through the felgercarb." Haven't heard that one on the new series yet. (And if you're an SF fan, I recommend the new Battlestar Galactica. It's really quite good--orders of magnitude better than the hokey, original '78 series. It's on the Sci-Fi Channel.) --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 15 22:44:46 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:44:46 -0600 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: I think the "yodelep" version is in "Full Metal Jacket". From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sat 1/15/2005 9:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Wish I could remember my source, Wilson - maybe it WAS "The Lieutenant," though I usually watched something else in that time slot - can't remember what, though. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 22:46:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:46:29 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: About twenty or so years ago, DC Comics inroduced the supervillain "Lobo," last survivor of an obliterated planet. He was the last survivor because he obliterated it himself - to be somebody special. At some early point in the saga, Lobo began muttering about "fragging this" and "fraghging that" and "stupid fraggers," "frag up." I've never heard anyone actually use these quasi-euphemistic expletives, but a Web search shows they're moving stealthily into American English. You read it here first. JL Dave Wilton wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Wilton Subject: Gorram and Frack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The discussion of "gorram" (an expletive invented by Joss Whedon for his SF series "Firefly") during the WOTY nominations caused me to notice another, similar term this weekend. On the new "Battlestar Galactica" series the characters use "frack" as an expletive, as in "Frack me!" While not as inventive as "gorram," "frack" is simpler and phonetically more abrasive. The term dates to the original 1978 series. Another term on the original series was "felgercarb," meaning, roughly, shit. "You certainly have a way of cutting through the felgercarb." Haven't heard that one on the new series yet. (And if you're an SF fan, I recommend the new Battlestar Galactica. It's really quite good--orders of magnitude better than the hokey, original '78 series. It's on the Sci-Fi Channel.) --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 22:51:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:51:44 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Possibly so, but my memory of it goes back at least to the mid sixties. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the "yodelep" version is in "Full Metal Jacket". From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sat 1/15/2005 9:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Wish I could remember my source, Wilson - maybe it WAS "The Lieutenant," though I usually watched something else in that time slot - can't remember what, though. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 15 23:10:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:10:21 EST Subject: Nassi Goreng (1924) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes (Jan. 6th): OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and 1939... I've got more books to look at and NYU's longer hours on Tuesday will help. Meanwhile, there's this. EASTWARD by Louis Couperus translated by J. Menzies-Wilson and C. C. Crispin London:Hurst & Blackett, Ltd. 1924 Pg. 142: If a European wishes to remain healthy he needs the rice-table. And I am willing to bet that whoever says that it is a bad thing does not know how to eat it. For there are many Dutchmen who have been in India for years and who do not know how to eat rice-table. They pile upon their plates rice, vegetables, meat and sambals, one on top of the other, and mix it into a sort of olla prodida. The taste is good, just as the taste of nassi-goreng (baked rice) is good. But, mixed up like this, it is an indigestible and unaesthetic mess, most unattractive in appearance. Whoever eats rice in this manner will not keep healthy and will take a dislike to rice-table. At the same time he runs the risk that his clever cook, if he has one, will think, "Why should I take the trouble to prepare my boemboe (spices) if my toean mixes up all these fragrant delicacies on his plate?" ("Toean" or "tuan" is a "European" or "master." OED from 1779, from Malay--ed.) From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 16 00:15:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:15:21 -0600 Subject: "eat crow" Message-ID: I recently bought a stack of "Comments on Etymology" (thanks Jerry!), and the Oct 2003 issue presents some of Barry's work on "eat crow" (ADS-L 6/22/2003). This phrased has nagged at me since, until I remembered why: Thomas Harris, _Silence of the Lambs_, Ch. 35, about 3-1/2 pages in (bottom of p. 224 in the St. Martin's paperback edition). Lecter, speaking to Clarice: "Dumas tells us that the addition of a crow to boullion in the fall, when the crow has fattened on juniper berries, greatly improves the color and flavor of stock." This dish must agree with Harris; in an article, "An Ideal English Class Syllabus for 9th Graders" from the Spring '94 issue of the teen magazine, _Mouth2Mouth_, he says: "Alexandre Dumas' _Dictionary of Cuisine_ will give us history and good practical information. We will cook now and then. . . . Dumas has sound advice on when to flavor your beef stock by putting in a crow." The local libraries don't have a copy of the English translation of Alexandre Dumas' (pere) _Grand dictionnaire de cuisine_, nor can I find it online, but apparently he thought crow can be quite tasty. Probably doesn't have anything to do with the phrase "eat crow," though. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 16 01:05:18 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:05:18 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050115224629.49763.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >About twenty or so years ago, DC Comics inroduced the supervillain "Lobo," >last survivor of an obliterated planet. He was the last survivor because >he obliterated it himself - to be somebody special. > >At some early point in the saga, Lobo began muttering about "fragging >this" and "fraghging that" and "stupid fraggers," "frag up." I've never >heard anyone actually use these quasi-euphemistic expletives, but a Web >search shows they're moving stealthily into American English. > >You read it here first. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~ There is an earlier, more sinister, significance for "fragging," probably derived from *fragmentation grenade.* It meant taking advantage of a messy combat situation to dispose of an intolerable superior officer. "Friendly fire" so to speak. A. Murie From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 02:35:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:35:25 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: I foolishly took it for granite (n.b.) that all members of this forum were sufficiently advanced in age and learning to be conversant with the earlier sense of "to frag," undoubtedly the inspiration of the comic-book term. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Gorram and Frack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >About twenty or so years ago, DC Comics inroduced the supervillain "Lobo," >last survivor of an obliterated planet. He was the last survivor because >he obliterated it himself - to be somebody special. > >At some early point in the saga, Lobo began muttering about "fragging >this" and "fraghging that" and "stupid fraggers," "frag up." I've never >heard anyone actually use these quasi-euphemistic expletives, but a Web >search shows they're moving stealthily into American English. > >You read it here first. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~ There is an earlier, more sinister, significance for "fragging," probably derived from *fragmentation grenade.* It meant taking advantage of a messy combat situation to dispose of an intolerable superior officer. "Friendly fire" so to speak. A. Murie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 16 02:46:57 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:46:57 -0600 Subject: viggerish Message-ID: One of my hobbies is magic. John Scarne was a famous magician of the mid-20th century who also did a great deal to educate the public, particularly WWII GI's, about crooked gambling games. I found an article about him on ProQuest: Help for G.I. Suckers By John Desmond New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 10, 1943; pg. SM14 from the jump on p. 34: "Gamblers don't call it mathematics. They call it "viggerish," which probably is a slurring over of the familiar gambling-house phrase, "How do you figure it?" Scarne says. "Viggerish" is the hidden percentage which all gambling houses take against the player." I've always known vigorish, "the vig," as the exhorbitant interest charged by a loan shark. >From the letters, 3 weeks later: New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 31, 1943; pg. SM2 " "Viggerish" To The Editor: The article on gambling in THE TIMES magazine was an interesting expose of games of chance, but there is one question raised which I think I can explain better than John Scarne. I have heard the word "viggerish" used for the cut the house takes in dice games. But it seems highly improbable to me that the word is a corruption of "how you figure it" because it requires too much of an assumption to make the transition from one to the other. My theory is far simpler. If you take the word as a corrupt form of "vicarage" then consult the dictionary. You will find that it is a collection of tithes. Pfc. David Shulman New York." Many of you will recognize the author of the letter. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 16 03:37:52 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:37:52 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050116023525.51934.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I foolishly took it for granite (n.b.) that all members of this forum were >sufficiently advanced in age and learning to be conversant with the >earlier sense of "to frag," undoubtedly the inspiration of the comic-book >term. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course. You're probably right. Sorry about my tone. Sometimes I feel as if I'm older'n nearly everyone else & it leads me into pomposities & other foolishness. A. Murie From cejone01 at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU Sun Jan 16 04:35:56 2005 From: cejone01 at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU (Charles Jones) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:35:56 -0500 Subject: unsubscribe me please. Message-ID: please take me off this list. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 16 05:59:17 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:59:17 -0500 Subject: Eye-catching snack name Message-ID: At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other products from the same company, chips or whatever. Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's Booty". Probably a few bags should sell on the name alone. Will these be permitted in school lunches? Am I the last one to notice this product on the shelf? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 16 06:55:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 01:55:20 EST Subject: "Walking on eggshells" (1900, 1922) Message-ID: TSUNAMI--William Safire's column this Sunday is on "tsunami." He gives the Hearn quote as 1897 and not 1896. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- WALKING ON EGGSHELLS--41,600 Google hits, 7.030 Google Groups hits WALKING ON EGG SHELLS--5,970 Google hits, 978 Google Groups hits ... I saw some promos for the American version on the IRON CHEF television show. The promos said that you'll be "walking on eggshells." ... What's the deal with eggshells? I tried the STARS AND STRIPES in the American Memory database, but appear to have come up with bad hits for 1918 and 1919. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _FEW TO WITNESS THE CLIMAX; Final Convention Thrills Staged Before Only 800 Spectators. DETAILS OF COX LANDSLIDE Colorado's Switch Marked the Moment When the Ohioan's Victory Became Assured. TEXAS HEADED COX PARADE McAdoo's Stanchest Supporters Carried Lone Star Standard to Strains of "Ohio! Ohio!" Relatively Few Saw the Climax. Hopes of Late Stayers Revived. FEW TO WITNESS THE CLIMAX Ready for Forty-fourth Ballot. Fear of a Bryan Speech Dispelled. Taggart Plumps for Cox. Colorado's Switch Proves Decisive. Texas Leads the Cox Parade. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102866792&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105854115&clientId=65882) Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857. Jul 7, 1920. p. 1 (2 pages) ... (I couldn't find it easily here--ed.) ... _BRIAND AND GEORGE CONFER AT CANNES_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=519685022&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1105855773&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 5, 1922. p. 3 (1 page) ... "The situation is delicate," said Loucheur just before the informal session began. "We are walking on eggshells and we cannot continue in this way. We must come to some definite decisions on many questions." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Atlanta Constitution _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2nSRkRoZrWvdWBb611kQhR8jbtL4V7NJxQ==) Thursday, May 03, 1900 _Atlanta,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:atlanta+walking+on+egg+shells+AND) _Georgia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:georgia+walking+on+egg+shells+AND) ...gait of a man who IR WALKING ON EGG SHELLS From Mitchell the man turn.....of th3 bare- footed man He was not WALKING for nor was he going without.. ... Pg. 7, col. 2: The barefooted man started at the corner of Pryor and Mitchell streets. He placed one toe tentatively on the hot brick pavement in front of him, eased the full weight of one leg slowly down as one who tries cold water before taking a swim at this season of the year, and was soon off down the street with the mincing gait of a man who is walking on egg shells. ... .. ... (NYPL) Author _Simmons, Herbert._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aSimmons,+Herbert./asimmons+herbert/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title Man walking on eggshells. Imprint Boston, Houghton Mifflin [c1962] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 16 07:45:47 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:45:47 EST Subject: Scrunter Message-ID: SCRUNTER--3,840 Google hits, 102 Google Groups hits (Not in OED) ... ... On Saturday, I tried Mama Jean's. 536 Ninth Avenue (between 39th and 40th Streets), "The taste of Trinidad & Tobago with the soul of the Caribbean." The "Scrunters Special" ($7) was "stewed chicken served with peas and rice or white rice and salad." I was told "scrunter" is a poor person who scrambles for a living. I had the "roti," which was very good. ... Othe dishes include accra, shandon bene shrimp, doubles, buccoo belly-full, paramin pork, and pelau. ... ... _http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/story/268712p-230143c.html_ (http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/story/268712p-230143c.html) At age 80, Dominique St. Hillaire can still take the heat and has no desire to leave the kitchen. That's where she is every day (except Sunday) cooking lunch and dinner at Mama Jean's, a West Indian restaurant at 536 Ninth Ave. (between 39th and 40th Sts.). The menu at the snug spot includes island eats she grew up on in Trinidad, says co-owner Fedner La Chapelle, her son. Specialties include braised oxtails and Soca Sunday, a homey dish of stewed chicken served with macaroni pie, stewed peas and rice. Originally published on January 7, 2005 ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Gleaner _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2lHP7jjKKTg8Bq1tjw67nfJQGZhvGBj3c0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 25, 1982 _Kingston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:kingston+scrunter) _Kingston_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kingston+scrunter) ...virtually incident free. Calypsonian SCRUNTER, warming the hearts of.....off the 1982 calypso monarch crown. SCRUNTER dethroned last year's winner.. _Daily Gleaner _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2tngo9VDqiL2X2nYiD3zsyqiaZWG2PmcqkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, March 02, 1980 _Kingston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:kingston+scrunter) _Kingston_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kingston+scrunter) ...she misses the school bus. TRIBUTE SCRUNTER's other song. "Woman on the is.. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 16 07:52:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:52:23 -0500 Subject: Eye-catching snack name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2005, at 12:59 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Eye-catching snack name > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American > Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's > Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other > products > from the same company, chips or whatever. > > Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's > Booty". Probably a few bags should sell on the name alone. Will these > be > permitted in school lunches? Am I the last one to notice this product > on > the shelf? > > -- Doug Wilson > You could be. My wife has been buying that stuff for months. She thinks the names are cute. I think they take the meat. -Wilson Gray From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 16 14:31:07 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:31:07 -0500 Subject: Real Mackay/Real McCoy Message-ID: I appeal to the etymological wisdom of this list for input on the following question: In 2003 Sam Clements posted this: > From ancestry.com, I found a poem in the Waukesha(WI) Plaindealer, > February 7, 1871: page 1(I think), col. 3. There are five stanzas. > Rather than print the entire poem, suffice it to say that the final > line in each stanza was "For he's no the real Sandy Mackay." > > The title of the poem was "THE REAL SANDY MACKAY*" At the conclusion > of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: < used in some parts of Scotland, equivalent to saying, "it's not the > real thing.">> Sam's sensational discovery is actually the second earliest known occurrence of "real Mackay" or similar phrases, the earliest being an 1856 mention of "A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay" in a Scottish poem recorded by the Scottish National Dictionary. The SND states that in 1870 the Edinburgh distillers, G. Mackay & Co. adopted this as an advertising slogan, but no documentation of that has ever been found. I have tried hard to figure out who "Sandy Mackay" might refer to, and have come up with something that is probably a total red herring but that I find intriguing. Charles Kingsley's 1850 book, Alton Locke, Tailor and Poet, features a character named Sandy Mackaye, a bookseller modelled on Thomas Carlyle. I find nothing in the book relating to "the real Sandy Mackaye," but I wonder, is it plausible that this book, a fairly important one in its time, could have been behind the reference in Sam's 1871 poem? The timing is possible, although "used in some parts of Scotland" suggests more of an older folk origin and my theory would require the term migrating in six years from a literary reference to an alcoholic one. A final point to ponder, probably of no significance except a remarkable coincidence, is that Jonathon Green's 1901 citation for the form "real McCoy," the earliest ever discovered for that form, is from The Boy's Own Paper, described by Jonathon as embodying the philosophy of "muscular Christianity." The father of the "muscular Christianity" movement was Charles Kingsley. Does anyone find any plausibility in the Alton Locke connection? Was Thomas Carlyle the real Mackay? Fred Shapiro From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 16:24:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:24:29 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: That's OK, Alison. I should have learned long ago "never to assume." JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Gorram and Frack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I foolishly took it for granite (n.b.) that all members of this forum were >sufficiently advanced in age and learning to be conversant with the >earlier sense of "to frag," undoubtedly the inspiration of the comic-book >term. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course. You're probably right. Sorry about my tone. Sometimes I feel as if I'm older'n nearly everyone else & it leads me into pomposities & other foolishness. A. Murie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 17:25:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:25:58 -0800 Subject: Tree-huggers Message-ID: Who'd have thunk that the conservative epithet "tree-hugger," applied to a person who supports an environmentalist agenda, may have been inspired by an actual stress-reductive practice? According to Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams, "Hugging trees has a calming effect on me....I'm talking about enormous trees that will be there when we are all dead and gone. I've hugged trees in every part of this little island....[A]ll I know is that it works." In an interview with Radio Eireann's "RTE Guide" (as reported in the Daily Telegraph of July 5, 2001), Adams revealed that he has hugged trees in Tony Blair's garden, as well as at the White House when he met with President Clinton. A later term, "panda-hugger" (a Westerner or other non-Chinese who favors generous policies toward the People's Republic of China), also exists. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From ddr11 at UVIC.CA Sun Jan 16 18:13:39 2005 From: ddr11 at UVIC.CA (Dave Robertson) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:13:39 -0800 Subject: Eye-catching snack name Message-ID: Reminds me of the health-food store snack named "Nookie", made by the Frookie company if memory serves. --Dave R ----- Original Message ----- >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Eye-catching snack name >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American >> Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's >> Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other >> products >> from the same company, chips or whatever. >> >> Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's >> Booty". From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 16 18:47:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:47:27 -0600 Subject: Tree-huggers Message-ID: I don't know how much stock I'd put in Adams' stress reduction techniques. While held in Long Kesh in the 1970's, he decided the proper way to decorate his cell was to smear his own excrement on the walls. Sort of a stress enhancing move, I'd say. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sun 1/16/2005 11:25 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Tree-huggers According to Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams, "Hugging trees has a calming effect on me....I'm talking about enormous trees that will be there when we are all dead and gone. I've hugged trees in every part of this little island....[A]ll I know is that it works." In an interview with Radio Eireann's "RTE Guide" (as reported in the Daily Telegraph of July 5, 2001), Adams revealed that he has hugged trees in Tony Blair's garden, as well as at the White House when he met with President Clinton. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 16 22:09:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:09:48 -0500 Subject: Word of the Week: blogola Message-ID: There's a new "blog" blend to join "blogorrhea", "blognoscenti", etc. "Blogola" (BLOG + payOLA) has been circulating on the blogosphere this past week due to a mini-scandal (blown out of proportion by a Jan. 14 _Wall St. Journal_ article) about bloggers receiving payments from Howard Dean's presidential campaign. A good source for blog citations is , which gives chronologically ordered search results (unlike, say, Google): http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?rank=&url=blogola -------- Posted by: jbm (October 26, 2004 10:58 AM) http://www.snappytheclam.com/archives/000657.html Doesn't this imply that this wasn't paid for, but a freebie? If so, why aren't we getting disclaimers for what otherwise amounts to shilling for free schwag - blogola? -------- Posted by: Ann Althouse (December 20, 2004 1:27 PM) http://althouse.blogspot.com/2004/12/bloggers-promoting-products.html An emailer writes that there should be a spiffy little word for blogger payola, like "blogola." Maybe we could also do with a word for blog product placement, like maybe "product blogment." -------- Posted by: Ronald Coleman (January 13, 2005 8:56 PM) http://instapundit.com/archives/020436.php The only real difference I can see is that one form of blogola is liquidated, but the other sources of bias can be and of course are in some cases far stronger. -------- Posted by: Major John (January 13, 2005 10:05 PM) http://instapundit.com/archives/020436.php If you really care if someone is getting blogola, you'll make your choice of whom you read based on their disclosure (or lack thereof) and/or who is paying/hiring them. -------- Posted by: Impacted Wisdom Truth (January 14, 2005 6:25 AM) http://impactedwisdomtruth.blogspot.com/2005/01/blogola.html Perhaps we should call paying off bloggers to shill for politicians, "Blogola" in tribute to "payola." -------- Posted by: Jeff Jarvis (January 15, 2005) http://www.buzzmachine.com/archives/2005_01_15.html Give credit to the coining of blogola to an Ann Althouse reader. -------- Posted by: Ann Althouse (January 16, 2005 7:17 AM) http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/01/blogola.html Is it fair for me to get traffic from links to posts of mine where I note a term coined by someone who emailed me? Thanks to Jeff Jarvis for linking to this December 20th post of mine, where I offer the word "blogola" for money secretly paid to bloggers for positive postings. My emailer originally suggested "payblogga" as the word, then added: That's a horrible name for it, no flow at all. "Blogola" sounds better, but it loses the derivation of the term. It could just be left as "payola", but today's buzzword/catchphrase world would desperately want to have "blog" in there somewhere. I preferred "blogola," because it does flow better. There are other examples of coinages that misuse the root term. Consider the way the "-oholic" ending of "alcoholic" is used in words like "workaholic" and "chocoholic." Really, only the "-ic" should be needed, as that's all that's been added to "alcohol" to produce "alcoholic." The problem is that "-ic" won't be recognized for what it's supposed to be unless more of "alcoholic" is brought along. It just doesn't work to say "workic" and "chocolatic." The "Watergate" ending "-gate" is a similar example. Nothing about "-gate" meant scandal in the original word, but it's a distinctive ending, and we know what it means. I think "-ola" is like that. The loss of "pay-" might seem wrong, because that was where the original meaning was, but I think we need a suffix, not a prefix, and somehow "-ola" has come to signify the corruptness of under-the-table payments. -------- --Ben Zimmer From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jan 16 23:17:16 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:17:16 -0500 Subject: another early 'boxing/real McCoy" cite-1902 Message-ID: Inspired by Fred Shapiro's message about the Real MacKay today, I searched again for "real McCoy" in Newspaperarchive. 28 Feb. 1902 _Daily Nevada State Journal_ 1/5 (Headline) The Real McCoy <> I've tried to find out more about a fighter named "Daniel McCoy" but am stumped so far. I though perhaps they didn't know that "Kid McCoy's" first name was 'Charles' but, in searching Newspaperarchive for Kid McCoy's travel schedule at the time, it would appear that this "Daniel McCoy" is someone else. The headline would indicate that the term "Real McCoy" was known in the US at the time, and most interesting that it was used about a boxer. But not our Charles Selby=Kid McCoy, evidently. It might be worth searching further to see if it was INDEED "Kid McCoy." If anyone can identify in more detail the boxer Daniel McCoy, that would be helpful. Sam Clements From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 23:50:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:50:16 -0800 Subject: Eye-catching snack name Message-ID: There are two "Nookie's" restaurants in Chicago. The first opened in 1978. JL Dave Robertson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Robertson Subject: Re: Eye-catching snack name ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reminds me of the health-food store snack named "Nookie", made by the Frookie company if memory serves. --Dave R ----- Original Message ----- >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Eye-catching snack name >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American >> Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's >> Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other >> products >> from the same company, chips or whatever. >> >> Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's >> Booty". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 00:29:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:29:08 -0500 Subject: Walking on eggshells (1860) Message-ID: More eggshells. I guess it's not American. (LITERATURE ONLINE) Collins, Wilkie, 1824-1889 [Author Page] The Woman in White (1860) 1515Kb The Woman in White. By Wilkie Collins ... In Three Volumes. New Edition [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): VOL. II. [Durable URL for this text] THE STORY CONTINUED BY MARIAN HALCOMBE. [Durable URL for this text] IX. [Durable URL for this text] ...me a hundred times---I walk, in your English phrase, upon egg-shells! And this grand creature---I drink her health in my sugar... From PZebe at CS.COM Mon Jan 17 01:24:53 2005 From: PZebe at CS.COM (Paul Zebe) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:24:53 EST Subject: "Corn" as expletive? Message-ID: Does anyone have any knowledge about the use of "Corn" as an expletive? I just heard a report of it being used that way in Alabama in the 1950s or 60s. Curiously, Paul Zebe From PZebe at CS.COM Mon Jan 17 01:49:00 2005 From: PZebe at CS.COM (Paul Zebe) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:49:00 EST Subject: "Fit to a T"? Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about the origins of "Fit to a T"? Curiously, Paul Zebe From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 01:52:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:52:12 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail" and Kirk O'Donnell Message-ID: Fred Shapiro might want to follow this up for his quotations dictionary. A simple e-mail to Boston College's John J. Burns Library might do it. TIP O'NEILL AND THE DEMOCRATIC CENTURY by John Aloysius Farrell Boston: Little, Brown and Company 2001 Pg. 581: "The Republicans will never trust the Democrats again on Social Security. It was made clear to them, indelibly and lastingly, that this is the third rail and if you touch it you get burned. It will never be anything other now, because nobody will ever trust each other again, and that was almost totally Tip's doing," said Lud Ashley.(8) Pg. 693 ABBREVIATIONS USED IN THE NOTES ONBC--Thomas P. O'Neill Jr. papers, Boston College RRL--Ronald Reagan Library Pg. 738 (Notes): 8. Newt Gingrich, O'Donnell, Ashley interviews; O'Donnell "Memorandum: Political Agenda for House Democrats," Aug. 4, 1981, ONBC; Richard Wirthlin to Richard Richards, July 29, 31, 1981, RRL; Pepper to O'Neill, July 14, 1981, ONBC. http://www.bc.edu/libraries/centers/burns/resources/collections/congressional/#oneill O'Neill, Thomas P. Title: Thomas P. O'Neill Papers, 1936-1994 (bulk 1953-1986). Description: 428.25 linear ft. Arrangement: Organized into seven series: Personal/Office Files; Staff Files; Legislative Files; Grants/Projects/Subject Files; Party Leadership/Administrative Files; Press Relations; and Audiovisual Materials. Finding aids: Finding aid available. Summary: Composed of correspondence, publications, photographs, audio tapes, videocassettes, artifacts, newspaper clippings, and scrapbooks. Most of the material relates to O'Neill's career in Congress, and documents his views on such issues as the Vietnam War, Watergate, and relations with Ireland. Also includes papers of O'Neill's staff, files of Democratic Committees, and some letters of late twentieth century presidents. Biog/Hist Note: Congressman from Massachusetts. O'Neill was born in North Cambridge, Massachusetts in 1912, and attended Boston College. From 1936 to 1952 he served in the State Legislature, and from 1953 to 1986 he was a member of the United States House of Representatives. O'Neill served as Speaker of the House from 1977 to 1986. A loyal Democrat and proud Irish-American, he actively supported human rights issues. He died in 1994. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 17 01:55:37 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:55:37 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: Oh, for Pete's sake! This thread has been going for several days now, and only now do I remember that I was on a panel at Worldcon last fall(World Science Fiction Convention; http://www.noreascon.org/index.html) on this very topic, invented expletives in sf. Unfortunately I was very tired at the time -- why? -- and I barely remember anything of that panel. -- Aha; after looking up the program on the web, here's the reason: >>>>> Sunday 11:00 p Exeter: Open Filk [from which I probably got to bed about 3:00 AM or later.] [...] Monday 10:00 a H311: Curses! Profanity for fantasy and SF -- what makes made-up profanity either work or fail? Panelists can bring in examples of both and share their own techniques for creating profanity that has the same emotional weight that real profanity does. Hilari L. Bell (m), Susan Casper, Larry Ganem, Mark Mandel, Vera Nazarian, Shara R. Zoll <<<<< However, a few thoughts off the top of my head: smeg, from the very funny sf TV show Red Dwarf. Evidently from "smegma". Used as various parts of speech. tanj, From Ringworld and other works in the same future history series, by Larry Niven. Explicitly an acronym for "there ain't no justice". His substitute for "damn": - "Tanj!" - "Tanjit!" (I think) - "... that tanj computer..." godsrotted, from C.J. Cherryh's Chanur series. One of my own favorites. Also gods-be-feathered, rag-eared, motherless. These last three refer to, respectively, an obscure theological controversy, a person's alleged inability to defend herself or himself (the point of view characters are cat-people), and lack of position in a matrilineal society. Cherryh puts a lot of work and knowledge into her linguistic inventions, more than almost any other sf author I can think of (main exceptions: Janet Kagan, Suzette Haden Elgin, and of course, though not sf, Tolkien; well, I have a list, but that's another topic). -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From PZebe at CS.COM Mon Jan 17 01:55:38 2005 From: PZebe at CS.COM (Paul Zebe) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:55:38 EST Subject: "Target" as a French word? Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her Southern students? Curiously, Paul Zebe From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Jan 17 02:10:47 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:10:47 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com> Message-ID: >Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? >That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the >past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her >Southern students? All I can tell you is that I have used - and heard - that pronunciation in the Knoxville area for many years = since the early 1980s, probably. It is used jokingly but with such frequency that the joking aspect is not always front and center. Bethany From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 02:17:25 2005 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:17:25 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Target"=20as=20a=20Frenc?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=20word=3F?= Message-ID: I wager if you do a Google or Nexis search on Target, the store, you will find many articles about this. I have read several in the New York Times alone in the past few years. Apparently, the word is jokingly pronounced "tar-zhay" by upper middle class shoppers who go there for some of the store's more upscale or chic goods. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Mon Jan 17 02:43:48 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:43:48 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE=3A_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=22Target=22_as_a_French_w?= =?utf-8?Q?ord=3F?= Message-ID: We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle of the verb 'marcher'. Anyway, KMart was known as K-Marche', and Target was 'La target.' I've never heard anyone say 'Wal-marche'' but I bet if I did it, no one around here would bat an eyelash. For us, there was no 'upscale' or 'chic' feel to saying 'la target' a la francaise, it was just funny, and a little bit derisive. We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: Jack in the Box = jack in the crack Pizza Time = pizza crime Pizza Answer = pizza cancer Pizza Hut = pizza slut Taco Bell = toxic hell I can attest to hearing all of those, but I'm not sure I've ever heard "burger thing " for Burger King. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Steve Boatti Sent: Sun 1/16/2005 18:17 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Steve Boatti Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Target"=20as=20a=20Frenc? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=20word=3F?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wager if you do a Google or Nexis search on Target, the store, you will find many articles about this. I have read several in the New York Times alone in the past few years. Apparently, the word is jokingly pronounced "tar-zhay" by upper middle class shoppers who go there for some of the store's more upscale or chic goods. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 02:58:45 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:58:45 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Target"=20as=20a=20Frenc?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=20word=3F?= Message-ID: We were saying "Crow-zhay" for "Kroger" in the 1970s here in Durham, North Carolina. When TARGET came along, it was natural to use the same Frenchified pronunciation for it, too. In the beginning I heard this only among gay men; as others have indicated, the purpose was sardonic: 'If we queers are shopping in the store, it MUST be a cut above others--or so we like to assume'. In a message dated 1/16/05 8:55:59 PM, PZebe at CS.COM writes: > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the > past 10 years.  Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her > Southern students? > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Jan 17 03:07:42 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:42 -0600 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <200501170155.j0H1tdqi019911@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel lists several more examples of invented expletives in SF. I would add: from Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_ (1951), "frab" (as in "frab joint") and "slok" (as in "pile of slok"); and from the TV series "Farscape", a number of epithets including "frell" (n. and v.: "what the frell", "this is a frelling mess"), "dren" (again, "pile of..."), and "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). (I'm sure there are more from that series that I'm forgetting.) Jim Parish From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Jan 17 03:07:42 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:42 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <200501170155.j0H1tgct019926@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Paul Zebe asked: > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her > Southern students? One of my sisters, who lives in Orange County CA, uses that pronunciation sardonically. I know of no connection between her and Tennessee, although I could ask. Jim Parish From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Jan 17 03:11:42 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:11:42 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_=22Target=22_as_a_French_word=3F?= Message-ID: How far back does "Jacques C. Penne" for J.C. Penney's go? Sorry if I don't have the spelling correct. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 03:49:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:49:21 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack (Farscape slang) Message-ID: There is an online FARSCAPE encyclopedia: http://www.farscape-1.com/index.php?title=Slang The Farscape Encyclopedia - Slang ... the draz out if here!" -Chiana drannit: adjective -Sebacean slang for a ... PK Tech Girl" frell: noun, verb, interjection -The most well-known Farscape word, used ... www.farscape-1.com/index.php?title=Slang - 66k - Cached - Similar pages From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jan 17 03:53:50 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:53:50 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=A0_=A0_=A0_=22Target=22_as_a_French_word=3F?= In-Reply-To: <008701c4fc42$450e6970$df631941@sam> Message-ID: > How far back does "Jacques C. Penne" for J.C. Penney's go? > > Sorry if I don't have the spelling correct. > > Sam Clements > > There's also "Roi Rozher" for Roy Rogers. (Also, sorry for the spelling. I've only heard it pronounced.) Affecting a faux-European name for working-class establishments is a pretty standard joke. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 17 04:26:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:26:35 -0500 Subject: "Corn" as expletive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A clipped derivative of "cornsarn it," perhaps? Stabbing in the dark, -Wilson Gray On Jan 16, 2005, at 8:24 PM, Paul Zebe wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Zebe > Subject: "Corn" as expletive? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Does anyone have any knowledge about the use of "Corn" as an > expletive? I > just heard a report of it being used that way in Alabama in the 1950s > or 60s. > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 17 04:46:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:46:36 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard "Target" pronounced as "Tar ZHAY" for the past couple of years or so. Like Red Lobster, Target has ads on local TV, though neither chain has a local outlet in this area. I assume that the Frenchified pronunciation is just a joke, like referring to a neighborhood beer bar as the "El God-Damn," thereby adding a touch of ironic pseudo-class. -Wilson Gray On Jan 16, 2005, at 8:55 PM, Paul Zebe wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Zebe > Subject: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French > word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area > within the > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm > by her > Southern students? > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Jan 17 05:01:58 2005 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:01:58 -0800 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com> Message-ID: Yes. Jacque C Penné got a similar treatment in the early 80s by my sister-in-law, early 80s, fashion majorj, Ariz State U. -jk At 05:55 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? >That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the >past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her >Southern students? > >Curiously, >Paul Zebe From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 07:02:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:02:54 EST Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: TAR-GAY--130 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits TAR-ZHAY--1,140 Google hits, 106 Google Groups hits TAR-JAY--1,890 Google hits, 410 Google Groups hits ... This is an old topic. At alt.folklore urban on October 20, 2004, some people named Alice Faber and Ben Zimmer addressed this: ... ... Alice Faber wrote: > I wonder if this is based on the mock-French pronunciation "tar-zhay" > that some people use. Then the nefarious Jacques Penné should be the next target. Ben "and then it's Krogér's turn" Zimmer ... ... The HDAS has covered retail nicknames such as this. However, neither "Jacques C." nor "Jean-Claude" Pen-NAY is there....One hopes for "Wal-fart" and "Taco-Hell" entries...Under "Needless Markup," there are 1995 and 1996 entries collected by "J. Sheidlower." That nickname is from at least 1991. (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Clothing Store Peeves + Misc. Bitching_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.peeves/browse_frm/thread/cb677c7b1d453612/c76dd0e42518600e?q="tar+zhay"&_d one=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=tar+zhay&as_oq=&as_e q=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_min m=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2001&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+t o+Search&&d#c76dd0e42518600e) ... When it comes to discount chains, I patronize that upscale French store, Target (pronounced "tar-ZHAY.") Buy your clothing from the flea market, like I do. ... _alt.peeves_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.peeves) - Aug 20 1991, 12:52 pm by Geoff Miller - 17 messages - 11 authors ... ... _Standard English_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bit.listserv.mbu-l/browse_frm/thread/2ca5579472b7d577/0970216717f0316b?q="tar+jay"&_done=/groups?q=" tar+jay"&start=200&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&num=100&as_drrb=b&as_ mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2001&&_doneTitle=Ba ck+to+Search&&d#0970216717f0316b) ... PRINT, --GET IT-- But the words are, you know, like the KIND OF YAP YOU HERE AT FACULTY MEETINGS, ****NOT!!!!* Imean like gossip by the undies at TAR-JAY. ... _bit.listserv.mbu-l_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bit.listserv.mbu-l) - Dec 7 1992, 3:38 pm by mer - 34 messages - 18 authors ... ... _Boycott "Toy Story" ??_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.urban/browse_frm/thread/79978203db03df2f/799d01dd644265bb?q="wal+fart"&_done=/gro ups?q="wal+fart"&start=100&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drr b=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_m axm=1&as_maxy=2001&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#799d01dd644265bb) "Oh gee, we're pretty stupid and lame-ass" Wal-Fart responded when they put the shirts back up after massive, nationwide protest. False. ... _alt.disney.secrets_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.urban) - Jan 22 1996, 2:20 pm by Michael Heinz - 33 messages - 26 authors ... ... _BEWARE NEIMAN-MARCUS CAFE: $250-00 RECIPE FOR COOKIES!_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.restaurants/browse_frm/thread/e1c1247862b37b48/e2af6 541b43b9011?q="needless+markups"&_done=/groups?q="needless+markups"&start=0&sc oring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&num=100&as_drrb =b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1999&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#e2af6 541b43b9011) ... soda 4 eggs 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 tsp. vanilla 1-8 oz. Hershey bar, grated They'd use *Hershey* at Needless-Markups? Now you KNOW this is a crock. ... _rec.food.restaurants_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.restaurants) - Dec 22 1991, 12:42 pm by Roger Lustig - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... _Capitalism means stratification_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.anarchy/browse_frm/thread/f300d0e4818f3f97/f477e8be18a9ee8f?q="needless+m arkup"&_done=/groups?q="needless+markup"&start=100&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&ie= UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_max m=1&as_maxy=2000&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f477e8be18a9ee8f) ... is used very frequently in the sweat shops of San Francisco's Chinatown, where clothes are sewn for the fashion plates who shop at Needless Markup stores. ... _alt.society.anarchy_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.anarchy) - Nov 8 1993, 4:14 am by Lizard - 21 messages - 5 authors ... ... ...... ... Neil Koomen Sep 6 1997, 12:00 am Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living From: Neil Koomen _neilkoo... at NOSPAMearthlink.net_ (mailto:neilkoo... at NOSPAMearthlink.net) Date: 1997/09/06 Subject: Re: pottery barn-target connection? > And my friends and I have called Target "tar-ZHAY" for a while (no, I'm not > a teenager) -- > we also occasionally shop "Jacques Pen-NAY" Here, it's "Jean-Claude Pen-NAY!" ... ... RWeidwall Sep 6 1997, 12:00 am Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living From: rweidw... at aol.com (RWeidwall) Date: 1997/09/06 Subject: Re: pottery barn-target connection? In article <34103CF3.7... at NOSPAMearthlink.net>, Neil Koomen writes: >Note: I've read that teenage girls call Target "tar-ZHAY," giving it >sort of a humorous pseudo-French pronunciation. I've heard Marshalls, the off-price store, referred to as "La Mar-SHALS." R. Wallace ... Kevin Schnitzius Sep 23 1992, 2:33 pm Newsgroups: talk.bizarre From: kschn... at encore.com (Kevin Schnitzius) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 21:09:30 GMT Local: Wed, Sep 23 1992 2:09 pm Subject: Re: supermarkets schni... at cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) writes: >i... at kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana) writes: >>(Of course, I usually say "King Stoopids," just as the Martin Acres >>subdivision has mutated into Martian Acres, and the K-Mart clone Target is >>often pronounced Tar-zhay.) > Taco Bell becomes Taco Hell > Albertson's becomes Albertscums > Niemann-Marcus becomes Needless Markup > Magic Market becomes Tragic Markup > The Foot Locker becomes The Foot Licker Publix becomes Pube Licks -- mr asynchronous kschnitz... at encore.com _Reply_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.bizarre/post?inreplyto=78f59f78990a56e4) ... ... D. Glenn Arthur Jr. Sep 24 1992, 9:35 am Newsgroups: talk.bizarre From: g... at moeng2.morgan.edu (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) Date: 24 Sep 1992 16:58:55 -0500 Local: Thurs, Sep 24 1992 2:58 pm Subject: Re: supermarkets In article schni... at cs.ucf.edu writes: >i... at kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana) writes: >>[...] "King Stoopids," [...] Martian Acres, [...] Tar-zhay. > Taco Hell [...] Albertscums [...] Needless Markup [...] Tragic Markup > [...] The Foot Licker ... and there's Radio Snack, Burger Thing, Hardly's, Boob's Big Boy, the Honda Accodion, Toyauto, Volkswagon Bunny, MacDeath, Densley's, Macintoy, Amoeba, MS-LOSS, and so on. Of course, I keep thinking that all those are _normal_ things to say until someone reacts to them. So far the biggest reaction-getter is "Gnu Hampster Avenue" for New Hampshire Ave. -- D. Glenn Arthur Jr., The Human Vibrator, g... at bessel.umd.edu "Being a _man_ means knowing that one has a choice not to act like a 'man'." How much interest is there in a TV/TS newsgroup? How many would post there? You can send me mail anonymously at _anonymus+... at godiva.nectar.cs.cm_ (mailto:anonymus+... at godiva.nectar.cs.cm) From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Mon Jan 17 07:37:57 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:37:57 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: Was my previous message just a bunch of code? Sorry, I'll try again.--jpv ------ We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle of the verb 'marcher'. Anyway, KMart was known as K-Marche', and Target was 'La target.' I've never heard anyone say 'Wal-marche'' but I bet if I did it, no one around here would bat an eyelash. For us, there was no 'upscale' or 'chic' feel to saying 'la target' a la francaise, it was just funny, and a little bit derisive. We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: Jack in the Box = jack in the crack Pizza Time = pizza crime Pizza Answer = pizza cancer Pizza Hut = pizza slut Taco Bell = toxic hell I can attest to hearing all of those, but I'm not sure I've ever heard "burger thing " for Burger King From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 09:21:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:21:11 EST Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) Message-ID: TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART Over at Wilton "Word Origins" (_http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1_ (http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1) ), someone asked about this. Is it old? Is it Swedish? ... It appears to be modern mock German. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO:; POPPIES FOR SOLDIERS _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=500480052&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& VName=HNP&TS=1105949754&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 22, 1952. p. 16 (1 page) : Vy iss it dot we are too soon oldt und too late schmardt? Bill of Zurich Heights ... ... _have you heard?; Reading _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=498560862&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105949 447&clientId=65882) ELIZABETH RANNELLS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 14, 1952. p. F2 (1 page) : _So Right_ Sign in bar: Ve get too soon old und too late schmart. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Independent Record _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=qfOSkbCfQu2KID/6NLMW2rFG07Of0fw50DtPMpH1n0HHiBf35r4+zA==) Thursday, July 17, 1952 _Helena,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:helena+too+late+schmart+AND) _Montana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:montana+too+late+schmart+AND) ...damd dey TOO soon gel oldt and TOO LATE SCHMART. Dey no stopt bark so much..... _Bedford Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Rvj45z7SpqiKID/6NLMW2l4qRlnRyCdXos9q5Hm/cYOd5XSGz6G6XQ==) Tuesday, September 16, 1952 _Bedford,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bedford+too+soon+oldt+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+too+soon+oldt+AND) ...on the side of his desk which Get TOO SOON OLDT Undt TOO Late Olniously. the.....is elected he is likely to looJc to TOO. for at least advice on the Interior.. ... _Vidette Messenger _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2lqHByk0SOnh2mQjJmV3J2+AyUg438K2n0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, October 28, 1952 _Valparaiso,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:valparaiso+too+soon+oldt+AND) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+too+soon+oldt+AND) ...said in regard to our Gedt TOO SOON OLDT Und TOO late TAX IS BAROMETER.....higher education at j Valparaiso was TOO demanding and this weary exhausted.. ... _Lemars Globe Post _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2j8w7oqfMOLPdboUuO68vluUNB3I6gXroA==) Thursday, October 22, 1953 _Le Mars,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:le_mars+too+soon+oldt+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+too+soon+oldt+AND) ...as the Old Dutchman said: "Ve get TOO SOON OLDT. und TOO late schmardt." FOR.. ... _Joplin Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2us9CmA0QzheSxaN9J6Srqid5XSGz6G6XQ==) Sunday, April 11, 1954 _Joplin,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:joplin+too+soon+old+AND) _Missouri_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:missouri+too+soon+old+AND) ...with the OLD German TOO SOON OLD TOO late through March more Fords were.....way patrol safety division said it was TOO early to definitely credit the.. ... _Mountain Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2s9Nds2WYffd55p0rxJSumSd5XSGz6G6XQ==) Thursday, July 15, 1954 _Placerville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:placerville+too+soon+old+AND) _California_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+too+soon+old+AND) ...999 Insurance. Phone 135-J-l GET TOO SOON OLD and TOO LATE SCHMARTf' Buy your.....The total prce is only ---------o It's TOO hot todcjy to write a have oil types.. ... _Mansfield News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2iuIzOhaxBk9wNvuDXiLglz87fxoN0o0p0IF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, August 07, 1954 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+too+late+schmart+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+too+late+schmart+AND) ...and Public Sale TOO Soon Oldt Und TOO LATE SCHMART if vou lm.pre.st.cd in a ta.. ... _Mansfield News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2iuIzOhaxBk947fws1mWRqmXpoDC2uAKs0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, August 06, 1954 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+too+late+schmart+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+too+late+schmart+AND) ...VeGet TOO Soon Oldt Und TOO LATE SCHMART But if you are interested.....level lot. A truly good buv at si 6. TOO. CALL LEONARD 8127-9 A. B. Reese, 42.. ... _Great Bend Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2nGh3t6QIOeDi5tlgjaSsRzHA3kqa20dxkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, October 10, 1954 _Great Bend,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:great_bend+too+late+smart+AND) _Kansas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kansas+too+late+smart+AND) ...said, 'We are TOO soon oldt und TOO LATE SMART." A Pirate teammate, asked.....a hole. Once in the open he was TOO fast to be run down. Hutch Salt.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- OT. MISC. THE ORIGIN OF CHESS-- ... I spent the day Sunday at the Asia Society. I was impressed by the Asia food glossary on its web site, and I checked out the bookstore. This was the last day of its exhibit, "Asia Games: The Art of Contest." ... The docent told us that chess comes from India. The companion book, pg. 137: "A majority of chess historians agree that the game originated in northern India (as _chaturanga_, in Sanskrit) sometime before 600, spread to Iran (Persian _chatrang_) and thence to Mesopotamia (Arabic _shatranj_), and reached Europe about the year 1000." ... The book and exhibit have been sponsored by the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. My scholarship is sponsored by...parking tickets. ... Actually, the majority of scholars agree that chess comes from CHINA. The India theory was set into stone by H. J. R. Murray, brother of the OED's Murray. But that was 100 years ago! ... The exhibit noted that no early chess pieces have been found in India. D'OH! ... How is scholarship--government-paid scholarship--so freaking awful? Do theses people take clues from the government-paid scholars at the Chicago Public Library? ... ... ... THE ORIGIN OF LANGUAGE-- ... _http://phrontistery.info/index.html_ (http://phrontistery.info/index.html) ... The Word Origins site also mentions the above site, called "THE PHRONTISTERY: ENGLISH WORD LISTS & LANGUAGE RESOURCES." ... Most of the site is just a ridiculous jumble of words, presenting without dates, context, or etymology. ... The site's author had a 2003 doctoral dissertation at McGill titled THE COMPARATIVE HISTORY OF NUMERICAL NOTATION. (He's turning that into a book.) An extensive Numerical Notation Bibliography follows. He cites several books and papers by Denise Schmandt-Besserat. (On September 10, 2001, I got an Iranian visa to visit ancient Persia on one of her tours, only to cancel that on September 11th.) ... In 1988, I moved to New York City and took over my sister's co-op. And I got a parking ticket and was found guilty for a sign that wasn't there. And I picked up this book by John F. Michell, THE DIMENSIONS OF PARADISE: THE PROPORTIONS AND SYMBOLIC NUMBERS OF ANCIENT COSMOLOGY (London: Thames and Hudson, 1988). In this web guy's extensive bibliography, he never cites this very influential and readable Michell book. And I watched this PBS show with Bill Moyers, and it was an interview with Joseph Campbell, and he said to "follow your bliss." ... And the first thing I realized was that the Greek number-name of the sun, _helios_, was a representation of Pi. And I turned to THE BOOK OF PI, and this information wasn't there. And then I solved the naming of the Parthenon and Saul to Paul, and no one knew those things, either. ... And then, while in the library, I met someone named Gerald Cohen, and he was working on "the Big Apple," and I thought I solve that right away, and people would believe that, and the mayor would surely thank me and help find living witnesses, and then I'd move on... From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 17 10:55:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:55:32 -0500 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:21:11 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART > >Over at Wilton "Word Origins" >(_http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1_ >(http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1) ), someone asked about >this. Is it old? Is it Swedish? >... >It appears to be modern mock German. >... >... >_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO:; POPPIES FOR SOLDIERS _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=500480052&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& >VName=HNP&TS=1105949754&clientId=65882) >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 22, 1952. p. 16 (1 >page) : >Vy iss it dot we are too soon oldt und too late schmardt? >Bill of Zurich Heights [...] Slightly earlier variants with "so" instead of "too": Chicago Daily Tribune, Feb 17, 1949, p. 21 And we close by quoting that sign distributed by a Milwaukee brewery to so many Chicago taverns: "Why iss it ve are so soon old, und so late schmart?" Deming (N.M.) Headlight, June 24, 1949, p. 10 I think it was R. J. (Bob) Mullins, of Santa Fe, the genial head of the New Mexico Educational Association who gave me a little motto to hang up in my office. It read: "Ve grow so oldt soon, undt yet so late shmardt." Council Bluffs (Iowa) Nonpareil, Jan 1, 1950, p. 17 With the following quotation, credited to a Pennsylvania Dutchman we will wish you all a very Happy New Year. "Ve get so soon old und yet so late schmart." Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 6, 1950, p. A6 A sign seen by a reader in Milwaukee: "Ve get so soon old Und yet so late schmadt--" Sheboygan (Wisc.) Press, June 19, 1951, p. 21 Ve Get So Soon Old Und Yet So Late Schmart. Smart people shop at McMullen. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 12:29:17 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:29:17 -0500 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) In-Reply-To: <200501170921.j0H9LGEe029762@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM: > Actually, the majority of scholars agree that chess comes from CHINA. > The > India theory was set into stone by H. J. R. Murray, brother of the > OED's Murray. H. J. R. Murray was James Murray's son. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 14:09:42 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:09:42 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Responsibility" In-Reply-To: <200501170152.j0H1qIw3014097@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: responsibility (OED 1787) 1778 _Pennsylvania Packet_ 14 July (Accessible Archives) The plans I am laying here for your future benefits, and the responsibility of my estate in case of any loss (which cannot happen) warrant my placing full confidence in your compliance with this eager solicitation. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 14:21:10 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:21:10 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Responsibility" In-Reply-To: <1105970982.41ebc72617f14@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: responsibility (OED 1787) 1737 O. Sedgewick _The World Turn'd Inside-Out_ I. 102 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) And if the Effects exceed his Responsibility, his Conscience, if he had any, will never acquit him of the Deficiency till made up, or atton'd for. Fred Shapiro From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 14:33:52 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:33:52 EST Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: Quite a discussion arose on the History of Eng. Lang. list over the pronunciation of cannot. A non-native speaker, a teacher, had been teaching the pronunciation of the second syllable as schwa--because that's what the OED has. UK and US speakers responding agreed that that is incorrect--it's the same vowel as "not." That seems right to me. So where did the OED get schwa? On a related note, I'm wondering if the spelling "cannot" may be fighting a losing battle against "can not" in the youngest generation, based on the number of my students who seem never to have absorbed the single-word convention in high school--maybe because their teachers didn't teach it. I don't know if "can not" has slipped past any editors yet, or made its way into dictionaries, but maybe it won't be long. Dale Coye Wilton, NH From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 14:37:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:37:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Unemployment" In-Reply-To: <1105971670.41ebc9d67991f@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: This is a word whose history has been much written about, including by E. P. Thompson in The Making of the English Working Class (Thompson said he had seen it used in the 1830s, but gave no citations). I remember Geoffrey Nunberg was interested in it a while back. unemployment (OED 1888) 1717 _The Censor_ (ed. 2) 191 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) When I look forwards, and anticipate in Thought the Prospect of those burning Months ... when the _Female Shopkeepers_ will be the only Beauties left us; when scarce a _powder'd Perriwig_ will be seen in the Evening from a _Coffeehouse-Balcony_, and I may lay all Day on the Solitary Board buried in Dust and Obscurity, and owe a Perusal only to the Unemployment of the indolent _Waiters_. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 15:27:17 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:27:17 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ontology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This one antedates the revised OED. ontology (OED3 1721) 1706 Richard Brocklesby _An Explication of the Gospel-Theism and the Divinity of the Christian Religion_ 72 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) For this Platonic _Ontology_ is an ascent of the Mind. From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 15:45:51 2005 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:45:51 -0500 Subject: burb/blurg/blog? Message-ID: Tore Janson's A Natural History of Latin (Oxford 2004) states (166): A recent coining in English is burb, used first as an abbreviation of suburb and later to mean a region of a space, especially on the internet, where numerous special interest groups have established burbs to exchange news and thoughts. "burb" gets 73k hits on Google, including special interest group sites, reference to suburban life "burb pants", and a number of "burb cloths" for babies. In one entry, both "burb" and "burp" appear in the same blurb to describe this baby accessory. Herb From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 17 16:02:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:02:19 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" commented upon some weeks ago: "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat (AP) January 12, 2005 http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains now, you should switch to refined ones. Thoughts? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:09:04 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:09:04 -0500 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) In-Reply-To: <1ec.328aeeb1.2f1cdd87@aol.com> Message-ID: At 4:21 AM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART > >Over at Wilton "Word Origins" >(_http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1_ >(http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1) ), someone asked >about >this. Is it old? Is it Swedish? >... >It appears to be modern mock German. >... >... We had this as a legend on a pitcher in our house when I was growing up, almost certainly pre-dating '52, in the form (more or less) "We get too soon oldt und too late schmardt". I'd be surprised if it couldn't be pushed back into the 40's or earlier. > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO:; POPPIES FOR SOLDIERS _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=500480052&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& >VName=HNP&TS=1105949754&clientId=65882) >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 22, 1952. p. 16 (1 >page) : >Vy iss it dot we are too soon oldt und too late schmardt? >Bill of Zurich Heights >... >... >_have you heard?; Reading _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=498560862&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105949 >447&clientId=65882) >ELIZABETH RANNELLS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 14, > 1952. p. F2 (1 page) : >_So Right_ >Sign in bar: Ve get too soon old und too late schmart. >... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:24:42 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:24:42 -0600 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains for refined ones" + "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." In my article "Contributions To The Study of Blending" (_Etymology And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald Leonard Cohen, 1988; self-published but very favorably reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): "As a result of blending, words are often thrust into a new environment which changes the meaning of those words." (Then: two examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems to be a third one, albeit not from the standard language.). Gerald Cohen > ---------- > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January 17, 2005: > This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" commented upon some weeks ago: > > "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat (AP) > January 12, 2005 > > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > > This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains now, you should switch to refined ones. > > Thoughts? > # # # From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:41:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:41:56 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <7e.612700d7.2f1d26d0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 9:33 AM -0500 1/17/05, Dale Coye wrote: >Quite a discussion arose on the History of Eng. Lang. list over the >pronunciation of cannot. A non-native speaker, a teacher, had been >teaching the >pronunciation of the second syllable as schwa--because that's what >the OED has. UK >and US speakers responding agreed that that is incorrect--it's the same vowel >as "not." That seems right to me. So where did the OED get schwa? > On a related note, I'm wondering if the spelling "cannot" may be >fighting a losing battle against "can not" in the youngest >generation, based on the >number of my students who seem never to have absorbed the single-word >convention in high school--maybe because their teachers didn't teach >it. I don't >know if "can not" has slipped past any editors yet, or made its way into >dictionaries, but maybe it won't be long. > One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation (not-possible/permitted): An Episcopalian priest can not marry (if he doesn't want to). [CAN [NOT]] (*cannot) A Catholic priest can not marry (whether he wants to or not). [NOT [CAN]] (cannot is OK) You can not finish your dissertation (can't you?) [CAN [NOT]] You {cannot/can't} finish your dissertation (*can't you?) [only NOT [CAN]] You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) and so on. (I have a little story on why such lexical items tend to be interpretable with only the not-possible or not-permitted scope, while non-lexicalized phrases like "can not" may be freer in their interpretive possibilities, but that's another story.) Once we accept that "cannot" is a lexical item, it would not be too surprising to find variation in how it's pronounced, but I confess I'm equally ignorant about the detection of a [kaen at t] pronunciation. Maybe upper-crust RPish? Also perhaps worth noting: "couldn't" exhibits the same restriction (wide scope negation) vis-à-vis "could not", but there's no corresponding "orthographic lexicalization" of the form _couldnot_. So at least the semantic restriction on "can't" should survive even if, God forfend, _cannot_ disappears. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:49:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Unemployment" In-Reply-To: <1105972645.41ebcda5269b9@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 9:37 AM -0500 1/17/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >This is a word whose history has been much written about, including by >E. P. Thompson in The Making of the English Working Class (Thompson >said he had seen it used in the 1830s, but gave no citations). I >remember Geoffrey Nunberg was interested in it a while back. > > >unemployment (OED 1888) > >1717 _The Censor_ (ed. 2) 191 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) >When I look forwards, and anticipate in Thought the Prospect of those >burning Months ... when the _Female Shopkeepers_ will be the only >Beauties left us; when scarce a _powder'd Perriwig_ will be seen in >the Evening from a _Coffeehouse-Balcony_, and I may lay all Day on the >Solitary Board buried in Dust and Obscurity, and owe a Perusal only to >the Unemployment of the indolent _Waiters_. > >Fred Shapiro as I think may have come up in our earlier discussion, this is not clearly the very same abstract nominal attested in the 1888 cite, which represents the usual modern sense: 1888 Science XI. 192/1 The chief purpose of the inquiry was to ascertain..the extent of unemployment generally. In this case, _unemployment_ is a general condition for which statistics can be computed, benefits offered, etc. In the 1717 cite, it appears more to be a temporary state in which a particular individual finds him/herself (akin to _idleness_). Are the two really identical? Should the OED have two distinct listings for the state and the societal phenomenon under the main entry? (I would say it should.) larry From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 17:02:01 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:02:01 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as I have heard some posh RP types do), the pronunciation [kaen at t] works. There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >At 9:33 AM -0500 1/17/05, Dale Coye wrote: >>Quite a discussion arose on the History of Eng. Lang. list over the >>pronunciation of cannot. A non-native speaker, a teacher, had been >>teaching the >>pronunciation of the second syllable as schwa--because that's what >>the OED has. UK >>and US speakers responding agreed that that is incorrect--it's the same vowel >>as "not." That seems right to me. So where did the OED get schwa? >> On a related note, I'm wondering if the spelling "cannot" may be >>fighting a losing battle against "can not" in the youngest >>generation, based on the >>number of my students who seem never to have absorbed the single-word >>convention in high school--maybe because their teachers didn't teach >>it. I don't >>know if "can not" has slipped past any editors yet, or made its way into >>dictionaries, but maybe it won't be long. >> >One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" >as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not >interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as >such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can >be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, >while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation >(not-possible/permitted): > >An Episcopalian priest can not marry (if he doesn't want to). >[CAN [NOT]] (*cannot) >A Catholic priest can not marry (whether he wants to or not). [NOT >[CAN]] (cannot is OK) > >You can not finish your dissertation (can't you?) >[CAN [NOT]] >You {cannot/can't} finish your dissertation (*can't you?) >[only NOT [CAN]] > >You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) >You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) > >and so on. (I have a little story on why such lexical items tend to >be interpretable with only the not-possible or not-permitted scope, >while non-lexicalized phrases like "can not" may be freer in their >interpretive possibilities, but that's another story.) > >Once we accept that "cannot" is a lexical item, it would not be too >surprising to find variation in how it's pronounced, but I confess >I'm equally ignorant about the detection of a [kaen at t] pronunciation. >Maybe upper-crust RPish? > >Also perhaps worth noting: "couldn't" exhibits the same restriction >(wide scope negation) vis-à-vis "could not", but there's no >corresponding "orthographic lexicalization" of the form _couldnot_. >So at least the semantic restriction on "can't" should survive even >if, God forfend, _cannot_ disappears. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 17 17:23:05 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:23:05 +0000 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <200501171702.j0HH29AL031321@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > larry, > > If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as > I have heard some posh RP types do), the > pronunciation [kaen at t] works. > > There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). > > dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general > Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon outburts other than as: 'You kuh-naht be serious!' - Neil Crawford From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 17 17:46:27 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:46:27 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050117050056.8BBA2B299B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jim Parish writes: >>>>> and from the TV series "Farscape", [...] "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). <<<<< Pronounced how? Rhyming with "chalk" /t r O k/? With "calque" /t r ae l k/)? The web site you cite doesn't give pronunciations, which seems strange when talking about a TV show. -- Mark, who will be at Arisia next weekend (http://www.arisia.org/) [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:27:16 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:27:16 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Neil, Not bad, lacking IPA; he certainly is not a posh RP speaker, and his stress is on the second element, but I'm not sure what that has to do with my message. dInIs >on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> larry, >> >> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >> >> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >> >> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >> >Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon >outburts other than as: >'You kuh-naht be serious!' > >- Neil Crawford -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:45:49 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:45:49 -0600 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <200501171746.j0HHkSVq004749@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: > and from the TV series "Farscape", [...] > "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). Mark Mandel asked: > Pronounced how? Rhyming with "chalk" /t r O k/? With "calque" > /t r ae l k/)? The web site you cite doesn't give pronunciations, which > seems strange when talking about a TV show. "Tralk" rhymes with "calque". Jim Parish From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:47:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:47:01 -0800 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as I have heard some > posh RP types do), the > pronunciation [kaen at t] works. i identify the forestressed pronunciation as specifically british and fairly posh. but such judgments are notoriously unreliable. we need data. arnold From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:49:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:49:48 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:27 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Neil, > >Not bad, lacking IPA; he certainly is not a posh RP speaker, and his >stress is on the second element, but I'm not sure what that has to do >with my message. > >dInIs > Agreed that the McEnroe example doesn't really touch on the possibility of [KAEn at t] as an alternant of [KAEnat], which now that you mention it do both seem possible to me for RP. I'll have to listen for these next time I watch a BBC telly show or British movie. (They will tend to differ in stress as well, I should expect--the former much like "can it" with fully reduced second syllable, the latter with some stress retained on the second half.) As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case below, I'm sure I've heard both first and second syllable stress on "cannot" in U. S. English, based inter alia on the rhythm rule. "You canNOT be SERious" would be natural enough, but I think "You CANnot COUNT on him" might be more likely (when there's a stressed syllable immediately following the "cannot") than "You canNOT COUNT on him". Or maybe it's just that both patterns are possible in this context. In any case, I share Dale's intuition that the "can it" pronunciation (my description, not his*) is impossible in the varieties of U. S. English I'm familiar with. larry *and now that I think of it, a bit misleading, since "can it" can or must undergo raising (=> "kee'un it") for many U.S. speakers for whom "cannot" cannot. From what I've been told, this difference won't arise for U.K. speakers, RP or otherwise, but I could be wrong about that. > >>on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--> - >>> >>> larry, >>> >>> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >>> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >>> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >>> >>> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >>> >>> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >>> >>Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon >>outburts other than as: >>'You kuh-naht be serious!' >> >>- Neil Crawford > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 19:02:02 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:02:02 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <2C992FF8-68B8-11D9-B0FC-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, Well, I'm a datum (and one who probably even overbelieves in the notorious unreliability of such). I'll see a bunch of such speakers come end of January and try to remember to report. dInIs >On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as I have heard some >>posh RP types do), the >>pronunciation [kaen at t] works. > >i identify the forestressed pronunciation as specifically british and >fairly posh. but such judgments are notoriously unreliable. we need >data. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 19:06:39 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:06:39 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Even in nonraisers, the nasal element in the stressed syllable would cause the vowel to be raised (or at least cause the perception of it to indicate raising, based on the nasal formant). dInIs >At 1:27 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Neil, >> >>Not bad, lacking IPA; he certainly is not a posh RP speaker, and his >>stress is on the second element, but I'm not sure what that has to do >>with my message. >> >>dInIs >> > >Agreed that the McEnroe example doesn't really touch on the >possibility of [KAEn at t] as an alternant of [KAEnat], which now that >you mention it do both seem possible to me for RP. I'll have to >listen for these next time I watch a BBC telly show or British movie. >(They will tend to differ in stress as well, I should expect--the >former much like "can it" with fully reduced second syllable, the >latter with some stress retained on the second half.) > >As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case below, I'm sure I've heard both >first and second syllable stress on "cannot" in U. S. English, based >inter alia on the rhythm rule. "You canNOT be SERious" would be >natural enough, but I think "You CANnot COUNT on him" might be more >likely (when there's a stressed syllable immediately following the >"cannot") than "You canNOT COUNT on him". Or maybe it's just that >both patterns are possible in this context. In any case, I share >Dale's intuition that the "can it" pronunciation (my description, not >his*) is impossible in the varieties of U. S. English I'm familiar >with. > >larry > >*and now that I think of it, a bit misleading, since "can it" can or >must undergo raising (=> "kee'un it") for many U.S. speakers for whom >"cannot" cannot. From what I've been told, this difference won't >arise for U.K. speakers, RP or otherwise, but I could be wrong about >that. > >> >>>on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >>>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>--> - >>>> >>>> larry, >>>> >>>> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >>>> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >>>> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >>>> >>>> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >>>> >>>> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >>>> >>>Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon >>>outburts other than as: >>>'You kuh-naht be serious!' >>> >>>- Neil Crawford >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 17 20:02:12 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:02:12 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains for refined ones" + > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of Blending" (_Etymology > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald Leonard Cohen, 1988; > self-published but very favorably reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust into a new > environment which changes the meaning of those words." (Then: two > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems to be a third one, > albeit not from the standard language.). >> > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January 17, 2005: > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" >> commented upon some weeks ago: >> >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat >> (AP) >> January 12, 2005 >> >> http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html >> >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains >> now, you should switch to refined ones. >> >> Thoughts? to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are three usages: (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW [an extension of the "replace" pattern] (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and (2). note that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD before NEW, iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new information] now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" example -- "swap NEW for OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's an extension of the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics similar to "substitute" ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" as well; i'd add "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the fact that "swap", "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* substitution, for which (in central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: in "I swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball cards", the marbles replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which participant is expressed by the direct and which by the oblique object could be entirely determined by matters of focus and topicality in the discourse. so lighter's example could result from an extension of a construction to new head verbs semantically similar to existing ones, a phenomenon that is very widely attested. cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as pretty implausible. in clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible to maintain that the speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing plans for expressing the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up with elements of each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or substitution, to use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, "Substitutions and splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's proposal is that "swap NEW for OLD" results from blending (1) substitute NEW for OLD and (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, which involves, at the surface, switches in three places, holding only the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, possible that blending takes place at a more abstract level of analysis, in which the allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is separated from the choice of "for" as the oblique marker. extensions of constructions to new head items semantically related to existing heads *could* always be analyzed as syntactic blends, with a certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this seems to me like the wrong way to go, especially since people who produce these extensions so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in general, the extensions look like innovations in grammars, made independently by some number of speakers and then spread to other speakers by the usual means. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 20:54:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:54:23 EST Subject: "Too soon Oldt und too late Smart" (1933) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer. Hate that guy...Yes, H. J. R. Murray was the son--not the brother--of James Murray. Sixteen years of parking tickets. What a life. ... Mock German spelling is always a search problem. I looked for "oldt" and "und." ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 6 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=109595240&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105994 403&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 9, 1933. p. 5 (1 page) ... _"GET SMART"_ ... Once an old German diagnosed the trouble with too many of us humans, this way: ... _"The trouble is ve get too soon Oldt und too late Smart."_ ... We disagree. It's never too late to "get SMART"--that is, get Wise. Ben Franklin wrote: ... _"The doors of wisdom are never shut."_ ... Many thousands since 1888 have been smart enough to find Safety for Savings in ... _The Franklin Society_ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 21:03:10 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:03:10 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:06 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Even in nonraisers, the nasal element in the stressed syllable would >cause the vowel to be raised (or at least cause the perception of it >to indicate raising, based on the nasal formant). > >dInIs > I'm not sure I follow--are you saying that all speakers distinguish "Can it!" ('put it in a physical or metaphorical can') from "Can it" (as a response to "It can get down to 50 below in Lansing") on the basis of the first vowel's formants? I was assuming that for many raisers, only the lexical verb and not the modal will undergo raising, or a high degree of raising. Is this wrong? And aren't there non-raisers (e.g. in the U.K.) who would neutralize the distinction between these expressions? If so, would some of them also merge "cannot" with these? I'm not sure how "the nasal element in the stressed syllable" would affect this, since they all have such. (And now that I think of it,it wouldn't be an American-style script [a] that the non-schwa RP cannotters opt for in the secondary stressed syllable, of course, but open [O].) larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 17 21:35:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:35:23 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how they originate) become "part of the language." In simple terms, more young (I guess) people - including young people who wind up as print journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part of the established meaning of "swap" and "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is beginning to embrace this entire category of words. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains for refined ones" + > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of Blending" (_Etymology > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald Leonard Cohen, 1988; > self-published but very favorably reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust into a new > environment which changes the meaning of those words." (Then: two > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems to be a third one, > albeit not from the standard language.). >> > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January 17, 2005: > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" >> commented upon some weeks ago: >> >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat >> (AP) >> January 12, 2005 >> >> http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html >> >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains >> now, you should switch to refined ones. >> >> Thoughts? to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are three usages: (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW [an extension of the "replace" pattern] (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and (2). note that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD before NEW, iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new information] now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" example -- "swap NEW for OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's an extension of the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics similar to "substitute" ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" as well; i'd add "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the fact that "swap", "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* substitution, for which (in central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: in "I swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball cards", the marbles replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which participant is expressed by the direct and which by the oblique object could be entirely determined by matters of focus and topicality in the discourse. so lighter's example could result from an extension of a construction to new head verbs semantically similar to existing ones, a phenomenon that is very widely attested. cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as pretty implausible. in clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible to maintain that the speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing plans for expressing the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up with elements of each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or substitution, to use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, "Substitutions and splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's proposal is that "swap NEW for OLD" results from blending (1) substitute NEW for OLD and (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, which involves, at the surface, switches in three places, holding only the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, possible that blending takes place at a more abstract level of analysis, in which the allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is separated from the choice of "for" as the oblique marker. extensions of constructions to new head items semantically related to existing heads *could* always be analyzed as syntactic blends, with a certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this seems to me like the wrong way to go, especially since people who produce these extensions so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in general, the extensions look like innovations in grammars, made independently by some number of speakers and then spread to other speakers by the usual means. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 21:41:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:41:56 EST Subject: "Never withhold good" proverb Message-ID: I was looking for "tsunami" plus "slang" or "proverb." I suppose Fred has a good citation for "teach a man to fish." ... This one didn't show up much on searches. ... ... ... _http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18386/article_detail.asp_ (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18386/article_detail.asp) ... Yet in the tsunami's wake, as in the world at large, the U.S. military represents only a fraction of American generosity. Contrary to popular misconceptions, America's willingness to help those in need began long before Mr. Egeland tried to shame Americans into giving by slurring them. Americans understand, as the old proverb says, that we should never withhold good from those who deserve it when it is within our power to act. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Impact International Fellowship of Ministers_ (http://www.impactministries.com/IIFOM/iifomapplication.htm) ... Never withhold good from any man when it is within my power to serve. Provide services that are relevant to the needs of my community. ... www.impactministries.com/IIFOM/iifomapplication.htm - 30k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:4z5F1L6PIZwJ:www.impactministries.com/IIFOM/iifom application.htm+"never+withhold+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.impactministries.com /IIFOM/iifomapplication.htm) From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 17 21:58:50 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:58:50 +0000 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation UK In-Reply-To: <200501171722.j0HHMnAL007057@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 17/1/05 5:23 pm, neil at neil at TYPOG.CO.UK wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --> - >> >> larry, >> >> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >> >> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >> >> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general Just chucking a stone in the water. Of course Charles, a monarch in waiting (dream on - what's the origin of that?), would say 'You kent be serious!' - Neil Crawford From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 22:04:28 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:04:28 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope; I was just observing that the vowel would be raised even in the dialects of nonraisers as a result of the following nasal (or appear to be raised as a result of the influence of the nasal formant). You are quite right however to observe that function words, including modals, often show considerably less raising among raisers, but whether that would extend to nonraisers, all of whose low vowels would appear to be raised in nasal environments, is hard to say. If the same distinction existed, however, it could be attributed to stress. dInIs >At 2:06 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>larry, >> >>Even in nonraisers, the nasal element in the stressed syllable would >>cause the vowel to be raised (or at least cause the perception of it >>to indicate raising, based on the nasal formant). >> >>dInIs >> > >I'm not sure I follow--are you saying that all speakers distinguish >"Can it!" ('put it in a physical or metaphorical can') from "Can it" >(as a response to "It can get down to 50 below in Lansing") on the >basis of the first vowel's formants? I was assuming that for many >raisers, only the lexical verb and not the modal will undergo >raising, or a high degree of raising. Is this wrong? And aren't >there non-raisers (e.g. in the U.K.) who would neutralize the >distinction between these expressions? If so, would some of them >also merge "cannot" with these? I'm not sure how "the nasal element >in the stressed syllable" would affect this, since they all have >such. (And now that I think of it,it wouldn't be an American-style >script [a] that the non-schwa RP cannotters opt for in the secondary >stressed syllable, of course, but open [O].) > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 22:18:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:18:52 EST Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: No, I'm Barry Popik. Serious plays first base. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _John's Wish Comes True, Almost; Sports of The Times _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=116983188&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105999363&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 (1 page) : ... And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge Herself: Mary Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. ... (...) ... "I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the "cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 22:41:51 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:41:51 -0500 Subject: "Never withhold good" proverb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I was looking for "tsunami" plus "slang" or "proverb." I suppose Fred has a > good citation for "teach a man to fish." I have that back to 1945, but would welcome anything earlier. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 18 00:02:49 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:02:49 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Agreed that the McEnroe example doesn't really touch on the > possibility of [KAEn at t] as an alternant of [KAEnat], which now that > you mention it do both seem possible to me for RP. I'll have to > listen for these next time I watch a BBC telly show or British movie. > (They will tend to differ in stress as well, I should expect--the > former much like "can it" with fully reduced second syllable, the > latter with some stress retained on the second half.) > > As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far as the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the Johnny Mac sort of case...." -Wilson > below, I'm sure I've heard both > first and second syllable stress on "cannot" in U. S. English, based > inter alia on the rhythm rule. "You canNOT be SERious" would be > natural enough, but I think "You CANnot COUNT on him" might be more > likely (when there's a stressed syllable immediately following the > "cannot") than "You canNOT COUNT on him". Or maybe it's just that > both patterns are possible in this context. In any case, I share > Dale's intuition that the "can it" pronunciation (my description, not > his*) is impossible in the varieties of U. S. English I'm familiar > with. > > larry > > *and now that I think of it, a bit misleading, since "can it" can or > must undergo raising (=> "kee'un it") for many U.S. speakers for whom > "cannot" cannot. From what I've been told, this difference won't > arise for U.K. speakers, RP or otherwise, but I could be wrong about > that. > >> >>> on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------- >>> --> - >>>> >>>> larry, >>>> >>>> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >>>> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >>>> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >>>> >>>> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >>>> >>>> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >>>> >>> Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's >>> Wimbledon >>> outburts other than as: >>> 'You kuh-naht be serious!' >>> >>> - Neil Crawford >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >> Wells Hall A-740 >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> Office: (517) 353-0740 >> Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 18 01:41:32 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:41:32 -0800 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <4AB62522-68E4-11D9-ADB3-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case > > Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far as > the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the > Johnny Mac sort of case...." see: Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of the verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg 71.1.102-31. arnold, *not* a co-author From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 02:25:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:25:22 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) In-Reply-To: <8a.1e7468d2.2f1d93cc@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >No, I'm Barry Popik. Serious plays first base. >... >... >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_John's Wish Comes True, Almost; Sports of The Times _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=116983188&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R >QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105999363&clientId=65882) >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 (1 >page) : >... >And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the >highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge >Herself: Mary >Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. >... >(...) >... >"I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the >"cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. Ah, but which half of the "cannot", inquiring minds want to know. (Presumably the latter half.) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 02:28:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:28:44 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <14FDF6B0-68F2-11D9-B0FC-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 5:41 PM -0800 1/17/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>>... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case >> >>Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far as >>the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the >>Johnny Mac sort of case...." > >see: > >Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli >Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of the >verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg >71.1.102-31. > >arnold, *not* a co-author Aha--there I am in the vanguard again. Either that, or it was a lapsus. I forget which. larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 03:28:18 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:28:18 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:18:52 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >_John's Wish Comes True, Almost; Sports of The Times _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=116983188&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R >QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105999363&clientId=65882) >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 (1 >page) : >... >And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the >highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge Herself: Mary >Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. >... >(...) >... >"I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the >"cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. Christian Science Monitor, March 30, 1984, p. 34 (Nexis) [I]n spite of all the heroics that Connors, Borg, and Billie Jean King have introduced into the game - not to mention You Cannot Be Serious McEnroe - there remains an Edwardian summer garden-party flavor to tennis. --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 18 03:34:41 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:34:41 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 5:41 PM -0800 1/17/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>>> ... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case >>> >>> Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far >>> as >>> the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the >>> Johnny Mac sort of case...." >> >> see: >> >> Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli >> Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of >> the >> verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg >> 71.1.102-31. >> >> arnold, *not* a co-author > > Aha--there I am in the vanguard again. Either that, or it was a > lapsus. I forget which. > > larry > Sigh! Unfortunately, Lar, you're hardly in the vanguard. As far as "as far as NP" without "is concerned" is concerned, it's been around for so long that you may well be in the rearguard. Who knows? Like "irregardless," it may just die out. Actually, let me restructure that. *I* haven't heard anyone say "irregardless" in years, but my social life is not what it was fifty years ago. I don't get around much, anymore. So, I no longer have a clear idea of the language used in today's American street. "Irregardless" may not have died out. By sheer coincidence, I just haven't heard it. That's really all the farther that I can go. -Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 03:44:51 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:44:51 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:25:22 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 5:18 PM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 >>... >>And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the >>highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge >>Herself: Mary >>Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. >>... >>"I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the >>"cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. > >Ah, but which half of the "cannot", inquiring minds want to know. >(Presumably the latter half.) Sure sounds that way from this audio clip: http://simplythebest.net/sounds/other_formats/Sun_Audio/AU_files/miscellaneous_AU_files/mcenroe_on_the_line.au >From this page: http://simplythebest.net/sounds/other_formats/Sun_Audio/miscellaneous_au.html --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 18 04:01:01 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:01:01 -0500 Subject: Nineteenth-century sexual slang Message-ID: William Herndon, a friend and law partner of Abraham Lincoln, once noted that, "desirous to have _a little_," Lincoln asked, "where I can get _some_." [Emphases in original} In the Boston Sunday Globe January 16, 2005, p.C3, col.1 : Capozzola, Christopher, The Gay Lincoln Controversy p.2C-3C -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jan 18 05:36:32 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:36:32 -0500 Subject: Real Mackay/Real McCoy In-Reply-To: <1105885867.41ea7aab637aa@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: >In 2003 Sam Clements posted this: > > > From ancestry.com, I found a poem in the Waukesha(WI) Plaindealer, > > February 7, 1871: page 1(I think), col. 3. There are five stanzas. > > Rather than print the entire poem, suffice it to say that the final > > line in each stanza was "For he's no the real Sandy Mackay." > > > > The title of the poem was "THE REAL SANDY MACKAY*" At the conclusion > > of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: < > used in some parts of Scotland, equivalent to saying, "it's not the > > real thing.">> > >Sam's sensational discovery is actually the second earliest known >occurrence of "real Mackay" or similar phrases, the earliest being an >1856 mention of "A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay" in a Scottish >poem recorded by the Scottish National Dictionary. The SND states >that in 1870 the Edinburgh distillers, G. Mackay & Co. adopted this as >an advertising slogan, but no documentation of that has ever been >found. > >I have tried hard to figure out who "Sandy Mackay" might refer to, and >have come up with something that is probably a total red herring but >that I find intriguing. Charles Kingsley's 1850 book, Alton Locke, >Tailor and Poet, features a character named Sandy Mackaye, a >bookseller modelled on Thomas Carlyle. I find nothing in the book >relating to "the real Sandy Mackaye," but I wonder, is it plausible >that this book, a fairly important one in its time, could have been >behind the reference in Sam's 1871 poem? The timing is possible, >although "used in some parts of Scotland" suggests more of an older >folk origin and my theory would require the term migrating in six >years from a literary reference to an alcoholic one. The record suggests (per SND) that by 1870 "real Mackay" was already a stock phrase. The SND has one speculation as to the ultimate origin ("reay" > "real" IIRC). Why "Sandy"? One possibility is that the given name was appended arbitrarily as an archetypical or stereotypical Scots name. Along with "Angus" and "Fergus", "Sandy" has been used in jokes etc. as the name of a Scot from auld lang syne. More specific alternatives are available, including the above fictional character and also a few real Alexander Mackays of the time. -- Doug Wilson From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 18 05:43:46 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:43:46 -0800 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 4:21 AM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART > > We had this as a legend on a pitcher in our house when I was growing > up, almost certainly pre-dating '52, in the form (more or less) "We > get too soon oldt und too late schmardt". I'd be surprised if it > couldn't be pushed back into the 40's or earlier. when i was a child, back in the 40's and 50's in pennsylvania dutch country, this slogan was offered in various ways -- burned into pieces of wood, mostly -- in gifte shoppes in my native land. along with "throw momma from the train a kiss" and similar crap. it did not occur to me at the time that i should actually *buy* some of this stuff so that fifty years later i could prove that people were saying that sort of thing (however grossly inaccurately) back then. oh lord. had i but known. arnold From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 05:53:34 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:53:34 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:28:18 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Christian Science Monitor, March 30, 1984, p. 34 (Nexis) >[I]n spite of all the heroics that Connors, Borg, and Billie Jean King >have introduced into the game - not to mention You Cannot Be Serious >McEnroe - there remains an Edwardian summer garden-party flavor to tennis. Just to pin this down further, McEnroe's "you cannot be serious" outburst occurred in 1981, in the first round at Wimbledon against Tom Gullikson. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,343-316639,00.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wimbledon2000/778283.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/newsmakers/2072245.stm --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 18 05:55:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:55:08 EST Subject: Cork taint & Trichloroanisole (TCA); Bicerin Message-ID: CORK TAINT, TRICHLOROANISOLE (TCA) ... CORK TAINT--8,290 Google hits, 204 Google Groups hits TCA + CORK--13,500 Google hits, 302 Google Groups hits TRICHRLOROANISOLE--4,270 Google hits, 79 Google Groups hits ("Cork taint" is not in OED, "miserable on wine") ... There's an article in today's METRO about the wine screw-top bottle making its way in New York wine culture. "Cork taint" is a big issue and has been written up in many places. OED should enter it, along with "trichloroanisole." ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Amorim CorkFacts - FAQs_ (http://www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm) ... Q: What is the incidence of cork taint? ... A: No. TCA is often referred to as cork taint; this wrongly suggests the cork is the sole cause of TCA. ... www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm - 19k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:uO7f4dB1uPYJ:www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm+"cork+t aint"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm) ... _Supreme Corq Inc._ (http://www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm) What is cork taint? Cork taint, also known as TCA (2,4,6 trichloroanisole) develops during the processing of tree bark cork. ... Why is cork taint a problem? ... www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm - 7k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:2MRiAO6gHjsJ:www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm+"cork+taint"&hl=en&ie =UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Cork taint_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.beer/browse_frm/thread/ac40b7f668e3089b/341e2f5e2bbeed32?q="cork+taint"&_done=/groups?q="co rk+taint"&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#341e2f5e2bbeed32) Is cork taint (a musty smell from the compound trichloroanisole, or TCA) an issue in beer circles as it is in the wine industry? ... _rec.food.drink.beer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.beer) - May 10 2000, 5:55 pm by Toby Guidry - 10 messages - 8 authors ... _Corkiness - TCA_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.crafts.winemaking/browse_frm/thread/eca618134ee9a91b/b696a22c85507c6b?q="cork+taint"&_done=/ groups?q="cork+taint"&start=0&scoring=d&n um=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2000&safe =off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b696a22c85507c6b) ... facetious). I usually play with the cork and smell the wine. Cork grade is not related to likelihood to have cork taint. Part of ... _rec.crafts.winemaking_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.crafts.winemaking) - Jun 4 1995, 9:41 pm by Tamiko Matsumura Toland - 7 messages - 5 authors ... _What's the name for that taste?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.food.wine/browse_frm/thread/d5dc3444b1f96ffd/b72c25095ff910f0?q="cork+taint"&_do ne=/groups?q="cork+taint"&start=0&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr= &as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2000& safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b72c25095ff910f0) If the wine smells like wet newspaper, shower mildew, or moldy leaves, the culprit is likely "cork taint", which is a chlorine-containing organic compound ... _alt.food.wine_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.food.wine) - Mar 23 1995, 5:21 pm by Richard Sowalsky - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Star Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2vuAAzIFKE5kzgbhu8BpXn3f2sV1UZiPpUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 20, 2001 _Scottsbluff,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:scottsbluff+cork+taint) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+cork+taint) ...per- cent of bottles are affected by CORK TAINT each year. Natural CORKs are.....the wine went bad because of a bad CORK in the bottle. CORK is a natural.. ... ... _Valley Independent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEtCta+6b/pqDCb3KCJ1LXsrUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 05, 1998 _Monessen,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:monessen+trichloroanisole) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+trichloroanisole) ...wine sealed with natural cork contains TRICHLOROANISOLE a wine-tainting mold.. ... _News Record _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEt3CPvhO08yB76rqRKGZwYe0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 05, 1998 _North Hills,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_hills+trichloroanisole) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+trichloroanisole) ...wine sealed with natural cork contains TRICHLOROANISOLE a wine-tainting mold.. ... _Capital _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2kqKKdP1sBkRfB5FyHWJUF/3SKrR+9ycuUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 27, 1995 _Annapolis,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+trichloroanisole) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+trichloroanisole) ...DEAR It's a chemical compound called TRICHLOROANISOLE that gives wine its.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- BICERIN ... BICERIN--6,670 Google hits, 64 Google Groups hits (Not in OED, "miserable on coffee") ... ... The Saveur 100 is out again, with its usual quirkiness. From SAVEUR, February 2005, pg. 57, col. 2: ... 52. _Why Italians Don't Drink FRAPPUCCINO_ THE EMBLEMATIC drink of Turin is the BICERIN, a layered concoction of hot chocolate, espresso, and thick, cold cream, invented in the 1800s. Nowhere is it finer than at its probable birthplace, the city's tiny, wood-paneled Caffe Al Bicerin, once frequented by Italy's great unifier, Cavour, as well as by Nietzsche, Puccini, and Calvino--all of whom (like us) found fortification in this dark, delicious restorative. ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _WHAT'S DOING IN Turin; Events Sightseeing Where to Stay Where to Eat _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=364909 652&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106026591&clientId=65882) ALESSANDRA STANLEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 17, 2000. p. TR14 (1 page) ... Turin lays claim to the famous Giandujotti chocolates, and its pastry shops are unforgettable. The Al Bicerin Caffe, Piazza della Consolata 5, (39) 011 436 9325, has been serving its coffee with chocolate and whipped cream practically since it opened in 1763. ... From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 10:06:18 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:06:18 -0500 Subject: twixters and tweeners Message-ID: _Time_'s cover story this week features a purportedly new coinage: "twixters"... ---------- http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050124/story.html Grow Up? Not So Fast Meet the twixters. They're not kids anymore, but they're not adults either. why a new breed of young people won't — or can't? — settle down [...] The years from 18 until 25 and even beyond have become a distinct and separate life stage, a strange, transitional never-never land between adolescence and adulthood in which people stall for a few extra years, putting off the iron cage of adult responsibility that constantly threatens to crash down on them. They're betwixt and between. You could call them twixters. [...] The sociologists, psychologists, economists and others who study this age group have many names for this new phase of life — "youthhood," "adultescence" — and they call people in their 20s "kidults" and "boomerang kids," none of which have quite stuck. Terri Apter, a psychologist at the University of Cambridge in England and the author of The Myth of Maturity, calls them "thresholders." ---------- Though the article doesn't say so, _Time_ seems to have modeled its post-teen label "twixter" after the pre-teen label "tweener". (The forms "tween" and "tweenager" date back to the '40s -- see cites in OED3 and the ADS-L archive -- but "tweener" is favored in the media these days.) In two Newspaperarchive cites from 1955, "twixter" is apparently used as an equivalent to "tween(ager)": ---------- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio) May 5, 1955, p. 26/1 "In Tune With Tots, Twixters and Teens" was the keynote of the North District Spring Conference of the Ohio Child Conservation League yesterday. ---------- Newport Daily News (R.I.), Oct 26, 1955, p. 5 (advt.) If you wear a size 7 to 14, 8 to 14, or a highschooler size 10 to 16, shop in exclusive privacy for the nicest "up-to-the-minute" fashion in our new Jr. Deb Shop. [...] Black watch Milliken Skirts that are washable... Sizes 10-16 and twixter sizes 8-14. ---------- But in this 1959 cite, "twixter" is simply synonymous with "teenager": ---------- Newport Daily News (R.I.) Feb 4, 1959, p. 7/1 HOLLYWOOD (AP) -- How did teen-agers take over the popular music field? There can be no doubt that they did. The best-selling records in the nation are those favored by that age group called "'Twixt Twelve and Twenty" by Pat Boone in his best-selling book. These twixters call the tune, and the adults grudgingly follow. ---------- Another sense of "tweener" (usually capitalized) refers to those born between the Baby Boom and Generation X -- a sense evidently popularized by a 1996 _USA Today_ article: . Not surprisingly, "Twixter" has also been suggested as an alternative to this sense of "Tweener": ---------- Subject: Re: A new adult is among us! Date: 1998/02/19 Message-ID: <34ed1883.1915966 at news.primenet.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc >>Generations usually span two decades. >>To repeat: >>1945-1964 Baby Boomers >>1964-1984 Gen X >> >>Trust me on this! :) > >Ummmm - sorry, but I am definitiely *not* a GenX person. I was born 2 >days into 1965, and I think that you can probably carve out the expanse >of about 3 years on either side (1962-1968) as being those too young to >be boomers, but to old to be classified as X'ers. "Tweeners". Bill Johnson is right! I coined my own phrase for it in a column once: "Twixters." I rejected "Tweeners" because it sounded too much like "weiners." I also rejected both GenX and the boomers because I neither slacked nor yupped. ---------- --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 12:13:46 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:13:46 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Computer Science" Message-ID: computer science (OED 1961 in plural, 1964 in singular) 1959 E. D. Cashwell & C. J. Everett (title) A Practical Manual on the Monte Carlo Method for Random Walk Problems (International Tracts in Computer Science and Technology and Their Application). 1959 _Communications of the ACM_ Sept. 11 Computers, data processing and closely related fields (let us call them the "computer sciences"). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 18 12:16:35 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:16:35 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 'Irregardless' is live and well here in MI, but it's so damn cold some people would say anything just to establish the fact that phonation is possible under these circumstances. In fact, I hear it all the time - on the news, on sports shows, and on other TV shows (which I monitor for linguistic purposes only). dInIs PS: I first typed "Irregradless" and the speller honked at me; I changed it to "irregardless" and got no honk! Somebody up there loves us. >On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>At 5:41 PM -0800 1/17/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>>On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>>On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>>> >>>>>... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case >>>> >>>>Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far >>>>as >>>>the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the >>>>Johnny Mac sort of case...." >>> >>>see: >>> >>>Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli >>>Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of >>>the >>>verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg >>>71.1.102-31. >>> >>>arnold, *not* a co-author >> >>Aha--there I am in the vanguard again. Either that, or it was a >>lapsus. I forget which. >> >>larry >> > >Sigh! Unfortunately, Lar, you're hardly in the vanguard. As far as "as >far as NP" without "is concerned" is concerned, it's been around for so >long that you may well be in the rearguard. Who knows? Like >"irregardless," it may just die out. Actually, let me restructure that. >*I* haven't heard anyone say "irregardless" in years, but my social >life is not what it was fifty years ago. I don't get around much, >anymore. So, I no longer have a clear idea of the language used in >today's American street. "Irregardless" may not have died out. By sheer >coincidence, I just haven't heard it. That's really all the farther >that I can go. > >-Wilson From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 13:29:10 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:29:10 -0800 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com> Message-ID: I heard that pronunciation used in jest in England this past summer. --- Paul Zebe wrote: > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) > pronounced as a French word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the > Nashville area within the > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New > England schoolmarm by her > Southern students? > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 13:56:03 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:56:03 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050117160219.30766.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To me, the meaning is straightforward; replace refined grains with whole grains. No confusing or nonsensical meaning. If it were "swapping whole grains AND refined ones", I would agree with your comment. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of > "substitute" commented upon some weeks ago: > > "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are > expected to place more emphasis on counting calories > and exercising daily, along with swapping whole > grains for refined ones and eating a lot more > vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not > Carbs, Make You Fat (AP) > January 12, 2005 > > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > > This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're > eating whole grains now, you should switch to > refined ones. > > Thoughts? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage > less. > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 14:11:25 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:11:25 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050117213523.5594.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hardly young at 59, the use of "swap" to mean trade, exchange, or substitute seems totally natural to me. What is the so-called "established" meaning of swap? --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of > the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to > explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how > they originate) become "part of the language." In > simple terms, more young (I guess) people - > including young people who wind up as print > journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part > of the established meaning of "swap" and > "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). > > There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is > beginning to embrace this entire category of words. > JL > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains > for refined ones" + > > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of > Blending" (_Etymology > > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald > Leonard Cohen, 1988; > > self-published but very favorably > reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust > into a new > > environment which changes the meaning of those > words." (Then: two > > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems > to be a third one, > > albeit not from the standard language.). > >> > > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January > 17, 2005: > > > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of > "substitute" > >> commented upon some weeks ago: > >> > >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are > expected to place > >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising > daily, along with > >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating > a lot more > >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not > Carbs, Make You Fat > >> (AP) > >> January 12, 2005 > >> > >> > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > >> > >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're > eating whole grains > >> now, you should switch to refined ones. > >> > >> Thoughts? > > to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are > three usages: > (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD > (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW > [an extension of the "replace" pattern] > (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW > [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and > (2). note > that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD > before NEW, > iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new > information] > > now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" > example -- "swap NEW for > OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's > an extension of > the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics > similar to "substitute" > ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" > as well; i'd add > "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the > fact that "swap", > "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* > substitution, for which (in > central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: > in "I > swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball > cards", the marbles > replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which > participant is > expressed by the direct and which by the oblique > object could be > entirely determined by matters of focus and > topicality in the > discourse. > > so lighter's example could result from an extension > of a construction > to new head verbs semantically similar to existing > ones, a phenomenon > that is very widely attested. > > cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as > pretty implausible. in > clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible > to maintain that the > speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing > plans for expressing > the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up > with elements of > each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or > substitution, to > use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, > "Substitutions and > splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's > proposal is that "swap > NEW for OLD" results from blending > (1) substitute NEW for OLD > and > (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, > which involves, at the surface, switches in three > places, holding only > the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, > possible that > blending takes place at a more abstract level of > analysis, in which the > allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is > separated from the > choice of "for" as the oblique marker. > > extensions of constructions to new head items > semantically related to > existing heads *could* always be analyzed as > syntactic blends, with a > certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this > seems to me like the > wrong way to go, especially since people who produce > these extensions > so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in > general, the extensions > look like innovations in grammars, made > independently by some number of > speakers and then spread to other speakers by the > usual means. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Jan 18 14:20:31 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:20:31 EST Subject: we can't not go Message-ID: This is what my wife said to me this morning: "But we can't not go" meaning (more or less) 'we have to go' I had just been thinking of Larry's list of examples including: You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) I don't think anyone could say *But we cannot not go." Dale Coye Wilton, NH From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jan 18 14:32:08 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:08 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" : as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not : interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as : such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can : be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, : while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation : (not-possible/permitted): Okay, i've tried, and i just can't (no pun intended) get the distinction from the orthography. To me, the two sentences "An Episcopalian priest cannot/can not marry" are both quite equally ambiguous, at least in written form. (In writing, i prefer the "can not" method for both, but i've been smacked down for that often enough that i've learned to search and replace before sending something out for other people to look at it.) The stress pattern disambiguates the sentences, of course, but i can read either sentence with either stress pattern. I realize this makes me evil and mentally weak and all that, but i'll get over it. FWIW, just to add more fuel, in my pronunciation (where @ is short-a): can (n., container; v., to put in a container): [k at n] can (v., showing possibility or permission): [kEn] cannot/can not (negative of v., possibility): [kEnat] (w/ second syllable stress) can't: [k at nt] I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor said that only speakers of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two verbs 'can' and 'can'. I said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a distinction, and said professor responded that i didn't (by definition, i suppose), and that i was merely forcing the distinction i'd just demonstrated. Not the most glorious moment in the history of teaching about American dialects, i'd say. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Tue Jan 18 14:46:42 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:46:42 -0500 Subject: we can't not go Message-ID: Dale Coye wrote: >This is what my wife said to me this morning: "But we can't not go" meaning >(more or less) 'we have to go' I had just been thinking of Larry's list of >examples including: > >You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) >You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) > >I don't think anyone could say *But we cannot not go." Rightly or wrongly, I do think that someone could say this phrase, for particular emphasis, perhaps in an argumental exchange such as: A: 'But we can't not go!' B: 'Oh, yes we can!' ['not go' understood, affirming the second half of the double negative!] A: 'No. We...cannot...not...go!' And I would say that your wife's remark would be better interpreted as 'for us, the option of not going does not exist', rather than the much simpler form 'we have to go' (your interpretation is weighted toward the 'less' of your 'more or less'). Michael McKernan From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 14:54:10 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: twixters and tweeners In-Reply-To: <62857.69.142.143.59.1106042778.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 5:06 AM -0500 1/18/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >_Time_'s cover story this week features a purportedly new coinage: >"twixters"... > >---------- >http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050124/story.html >Grow Up? Not So Fast >Meet the twixters. They're not kids anymore, but they're not adults >either. why a new breed of young people won't — or can't? — settle down >[...] >The years from 18 until 25 and even beyond have become a distinct and >separate life stage, a strange, transitional never-never land between >adolescence and adulthood in which people stall for a few extra years, >putting off the iron cage of adult responsibility that constantly >threatens to crash down on them. They're betwixt and between. You could >call them twixters. >[...] >The sociologists, psychologists, economists and others who study this age >group have many names for this new phase of life — "youthhood," >"adultescence" —... Plus ça change--the word "adult" is itself originally from the past participle (_adultus_) of the verb _adolescere_, the idea being that once one has finished growing up--adolesced--one is a grown-up. And of course _adolescent_ is the present participle of the same verb. So adultescence is a blend of two lexical items that were originally inflectional variants of the same lexical item. There may be a word for this, but if so I don't know it. (auto-doublet?) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 14:59:25 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:59:25 -0500 Subject: we can't not go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:20 AM -0500 1/18/05, Dale Coye wrote: >This is what my wife said to me this morning: "But we can't not go" meaning >(more or less) 'we have to go' I had just been thinking of Larry's list of >examples including: > >You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) >You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) > >I don't think anyone could say *But we cannot not go." > >Dale Coye >Wilton, NH Au contraire. It's just a bit more formal. Google score: can't not: 146,000 cannot not: 98,600 The raw numbers don't mean much, but the proportion seems right to me. (In many languages, necessity/obligation is normally or typically expressed by just such a combo, which works nicely given that (as Aristotle observed) NOT [CAN [NOT]] = MUST.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 15:13:24 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:13:24 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <00d301c4fd6a$805f5ab0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: At 9:32 AM -0500 1/18/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Laurence Horn > >: One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" >: as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not >: interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as >: such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can >: be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, >: while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation >: (not-possible/permitted): > > > >Okay, i've tried, and i just can't (no pun intended) get the distinction >from the orthography. To me, the two sentences "An Episcopalian priest >cannot/can not marry" are both quite equally ambiguous, at least in written >form. (In writing, i prefer the "can not" method for both, but i've been >smacked down for that often enough that i've learned to search and replace >before sending something out for other people to look at it.) The stress >pattern disambiguates the sentences, of course, but i can read either >sentence with either stress pattern. > >I realize this makes me evil and mentally weak and all that, but i'll get >over it. > Very interesting. So for you it's possible to write An Episcopalian priest cannot marry if he doesn't want to marry. You cannot go to the meeting, can't you? For me, these are impossible, although they'd be fine with "can not" in place of "cannot". (Note that the reading I'm trying to force with these frames is the 'possible not' or 'permitted not', as in "can, if he wants, not marry".) My claim, perhaps not optimally expressed, is that "can not" allows both interpretations, 'not possible' (or 'not permitted') and 'possible not' (or 'permitted not'), but "cannot" only allows the former. In this respect, "cannot" is like "can't" rather than like "can not". If you don't share this intuition, that would be interesting (to me, anyway). Notice that I'm making no claim that "can not" is unambiguous; the claim is only about "cannot". If you can write the above sentences in the indicated way, do you distinguish between the "cannot" versions and the inflected versions with "can't", i.e. An Episcopalian priest can't marry if he doesn't want to marry. You can't go to the meeting, can't you? ? Or are these possible for you as well? Larry, *trying* to do descriptive and not prescriptive semantic dialectology From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:20:23 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:20:23 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: <16BFF7C3.17E119F1.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. This has the searchable full text of pretty much all British and United States legal treatises published between 1800 and 1926. Please let me know if there are any law-related words or phrases you want searched in this resource. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumasb at UTK.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:26:30 2005 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:26:30 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gale? Bethany On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. > This > has the searchable full text of pretty much all British and United > States > legal treatises published between 1800 and 1926. Please let me know if > there are any law-related words or phrases you want searched in this > resource. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:29:53 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:29:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Statutory Rape" In-Reply-To: <200501181719.j0IHJA8T020100@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: statutory rape (OED 1898) 1873 Joel P. Bishop _Commentaries on the Law of Statutory Crimes_ 319 (Making of Modern Law) (heading) Carnal ravishment of children under statutes, with some further views of statutory rape. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jancarsho at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 17:43:55 2005 From: jancarsho at YAHOO.COM (J C) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:43:55 -0800 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: jancarsho at yahoo.com unsubscribe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:59:30 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:59:30 -0500 Subject: "blown out of context" Message-ID: last paragraph of article. blend of "blown out of proportion" and "taken out of context". >>> January 18, 2005 Harvard Chief Defends His Talk on Women By SAM DILLON "Initially all of the questions were from women, and I think there was definitely a gender component to how people interpreted his remarks," Dr. Didion said. "Male colleagues didn't say much afterwards and later said they felt his comments were being blown out of context. Female colleagues were on the whole surprised by his comments." Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company <<< mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:01:50 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:01:50 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <20050118050009.93A05B2956@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: JP Villanueva wrote: >>> V2FzIG15IHByZXZpb3VzIG1lc3NhZ2UganVzdCBhIGJ1bmNoIG9mIGNvZGU/ICBTb3JyeSwgSSds bCB0cnkgYWdhaW4uLS1qcHYNCiANCi0tLS0tLQ0KV2UndmUgc2FpZCAndGFyLXpoYXknIG9yIGV2 ZW4gJ2xhIHRhci16aGF5JyBoZXJlIGluIHRoZSBQYWNpZmljIE5vcnRod2VzdCBldmVyIHNpbmNl [...] <<< Howzat again?? mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:06:18 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:06:18 -0500 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050118050009.93A05B2956@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter notes-- >>> "...swapping whole grains for refined ones ..." This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains now, you should switch to refined ones. Thoughts? <<< Same for me. mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:14:25 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:14:25 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <20050118050009.93A05B2956@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson writ: >>> On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: [...] > As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case Et _tu_, Laurentie?! <<< Et tu, Wilson? Marcus Laurentius Marci Laurenti Marco Laurentio Marcum Laurentium Marco Laurentio Marce Laurenti <----- Second declension nouns in -ius take the vocative in long -i, not -ie. A manu scripsit Marcus Mandelensis From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:14:54 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:14:54 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation of Humira In-Reply-To: <20050118130600.K75042@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this make sense to anyone? Now I admit I will remember their product (which may be their point), but I find I am unlikely to buy it--not just because I don't need it (yet), but because of the disconnect between the spelling and pronunciation. Barbara From dsgood at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 18 18:08:03 2005 From: dsgood at GMAIL.COM (Daniel S. Goodman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:08:03 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <-2252481709480023702@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I've heard that pronunciation in Minneapolis since some time in the 1980s or 1990s. And I believe I've seen it in a novel by native Minneapolitan sf/fantasy writer Eleanor Arnason. > I heard that pronunciation used in jest in England > this past summer. > > --- Paul Zebe wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) > > pronounced as a French word? > > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the > > Nashville area within the > > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New > > England schoolmarm by her > > Southern students? > > > > Curiously, > > Paul Zebe > > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > -- -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:18:44 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:18:44 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack #Pizza Time = pizza crime #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer #Pizza Hut = pizza slut #Taco Bell = toxic hell I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. mark by hand From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Jan 18 13:25:49 2005 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:25:49 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Humira In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw the ad, and thought they were saying . Maybe my brain was supplying what I thought ought to be the case? Wendalyn >There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . >However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this >make sense to anyone? > > >Barbara From miriammeyers at VISI.COM Tue Jan 18 18:08:25 2005 From: miriammeyers at VISI.COM (Miriam Meyers) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:08:25 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <20050118132911.7C5B24E3C@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation is referred to regularly in the news. Miriam Meyers Metropolitan State University (emerita) On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:29 AM, James Smith wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Smith > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I heard that pronunciation used in jest in England > this past summer. > > > --- Paul Zebe wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) >> pronounced as a French word? >> That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the >> Nashville area within the >> past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New >> England schoolmarm by her >> Southern students? >> >> Curiously, >> Paul Zebe >> > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Tue Jan 18 18:25:55 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:25:55 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: Was my previous message just a bunch of code? Sorry, I'll try again.--jpv ------ We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle of the verb 'marcher'. Anyway, KMart was known as K-Marche', and Target was 'La target.' I've never heard anyone say 'Wal-marche'' but I bet if I did it, no one around here would bat an eyelash. For us, there was no 'upscale' or 'chic' feel to saying 'la target' a la francaise, it was just funny, and a little bit derisive. We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: Jack in the Box = jack in the crack Pizza Time = pizza crime Pizza Answer = pizza cancer Pizza Hut = pizza slut Taco Bell = toxic hell I can attest to hearing all of those, but I'm not sure I've ever heard "burger thing " for Burger King -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 18 18:29:05 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:29:05 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: > This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many > Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, > and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation > is referred to regularly in the news. Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the call it out as being unusual or jocular? Grant Barrett From miriammeyers at VISI.COM Tue Jan 18 18:37:28 2005 From: miriammeyers at VISI.COM (Miriam Meyers) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:37:28 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <20050118182912.A1FEF548A@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: >> This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many >> Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, >> and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation >> is referred to regularly in the news. > > Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the > call it out as being unusual or jocular? > > Grant Barrett > If memory serves, it usually appears in quotation marks, with a spelling like Targzhay. The Star Tribune archives would no doubt yield examples. Target is in the news frequently. Miriam Meyers From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 18 18:56:37 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:56:37 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? Message-ID: From the Star-Tribune, 4/7/1986: <<"Years ago the consumer would say, 'I shop at Tarzhay,"' quipped Ken Macke, Dayton Hudson Corp. chairman and chief executive. "Socially unacceptable. Now they almost brag about saving money." >> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Miriam Meyers Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: >> This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many >> Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, >> and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation >> is referred to regularly in the news. > > Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the > call it out as being unusual or jocular? > > Grant Barrett > If memory serves, it usually appears in quotation marks, with a spelling like Targzhay. The Star Tribune archives would no doubt yield examples. Target is in the news frequently. Miriam Meyers From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Jan 18 19:05:51 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:05:51 -0800 Subject: birthday pants and crotch rocket Message-ID: This reminds me of something that I heard from one of my students recently. When I asked her about her weekend, she went on and on about riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably surprised that she would speak so openly and gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this except for me. Who would have known?!! Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 01/15/05 10:00AM >>> caught in the most recent New Yorker, "in one's birthday pants" 'naked from the waist down': At the same time, the stresses in the women's lives are played for comedy (and sometimes as an attempt to get two laughs out of one joke―in two episodes early in the series, two different characters are caught outside naked, one in her full birthday suit and one in his birthday pants). ----- ----- and from yet another site, suggesting that "birthday pants" might refer to crotchless pants (obviously not what was featured in "Desperate Housewives", but possibly what the porn sites were going on about): ----- http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13412.html From debaron at UIUC.EDU Tue Jan 18 19:15:20 2005 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:15:20 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <200501181856.j0IIufCd014803@relay6.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Our family always called Taget "tarzhay" in the 1980s and into the early 90s -- with a tinge of irony in the voice (never did see it in print) -- because it was the elite of discount stores both in terms of the brands it offered and the clientele who shopped there, compared to the other options (at the time, by us, K-Mart and Venture). Venture has long-since gone under, and with the closing of our two local K-Marts, and with Target in a head-to-head with a WalMart that now carries some organic foods and has a more generous return policy, that distinction no longer applies, despite the fact that Target still has some designer brands the other stores don't. In any case, tarzhay has gotten old. Dennis On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > From the Star-Tribune, 4/7/1986: > > <<"Years ago the consumer would say, 'I shop at Tarzhay,"' > quipped Ken Macke, Dayton Hudson Corp. chairman and chief executive. > "Socially unacceptable. Now they almost brag about saving money." >> > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Miriam Meyers > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:37 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Grant Barrett >> Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: >>> This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many >>> Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, >>> and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French >>> pronunciation >>> is referred to regularly in the news. >> >> Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the >> call it out as being unusual or jocular? >> >> Grant Barrett >> > If memory serves, it usually appears in quotation marks, with a > spelling like Targzhay. The Star Tribune archives would no doubt yield > examples. Target is in the news frequently. > > Miriam Meyers > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 19:53:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:53:37 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <20050118131011.Y75042@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: > Wilson writ: >>>> >On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > [...] >> As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case > >Et _tu_, Laurentie?! ><<< > >Et tu, Wilson? > Marcus Laurentius > Marci Laurenti > Marco Laurentio > Marcum Laurentium > Marco Laurentio > Marce Laurenti <----- > >Second declension nouns in -ius take the vocative in long -i, not -ie. > >A manu scripsit Marcus Mandelensis Aha! That explains why I'm always addressed as "Laurenti" whenever I visit the Forum. I was wondering. Laurentius Robertus Cornuensis From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Jan 18 19:56:15 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:15 EST Subject: Pronunciation of Humira Message-ID: In a message dated 1/18/2005 1:15:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes: There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this make sense to anyone It's not clear from your spelling how they pronounced it. Can you write it phonetically, indicating also where the main stress falls? Dale Coye Wilton, NH From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 19:57:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:57 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:25 AM -0800 1/18/05, JP Villanueva wrote: >We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific >Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used >to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now >Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). >Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle >of the verb 'marcher'. > Bon Marché is also French for 'inexpensive'; the crucial etymon is not _marcher_ 'walk' but _marché_ 'market', I believe from Lat. mercatus, and hence a cognate for "market" itself. (To get something at good market is getting it cheap.) L From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:19:13 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:19:13 -0500 Subject: birthday pants and crotch rocket In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah! Shades of the past. "Crotch rocket" reminds me of "crotch cricket," our adolescent synonym for crab louse. What wags we were! dInIs >This reminds me of something that I heard from >one of my students recently. When I asked her >about her weekend, she went on and on about >riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably >surprised that she would speak so openly and >gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't >sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll >pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. >Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of >motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this >except for me. Who would have known?!! >Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' > >>>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 01/15/05 10:00AM >>> >caught in the most recent New Yorker, "in one's birthday pants" 'naked >from the waist down': > >At the same time, the stresses in the women's lives are played for >comedy (and sometimes as an attempt to get two laughs out of one >jokeÅ\in two episodes early in the series, two different characters are >caught outside naked, one in her full birthday suit and one in his >birthday pants). >----- > >----- > >and from yet another site, suggesting that "birthday pants" might refer >to crotchless pants (obviously not what was featured in "Desperate >Housewives", but possibly what the porn sites were going on about): >----- >http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13412.html From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:29:06 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:29:06 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation of Humira In-Reply-To: <7f.55c97d42.2f1ec3df@aol.com> Message-ID: Dale Coye writes: > >In a message dated 1/18/2005 1:15:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes: >>There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . >>However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this >>make sense to anyone >It's not clear from your spelling how they pronounced it. Can you write it >phonetically, indicating also where the main stress falls? I'll try: hjumaira--stress on the second syllable. I'm a little uncertain as to how to write the second vowel because of the following r, but I would pronounce what they have spelled hjumeera. Barbara From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:37:15 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:37:15 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Contractual" In-Reply-To: <200501181719.j0IHJA8T020100@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Jeremy Bentham was one of the greatest of English-language neologists: he coined "maximize," "minimize," "utilitarian," "codify," and, his most important coinage, "international." Here's another one to add to his list. contractual (OED 1861) 1827 Jeremy Bentham _Rationale of Judicial Evidence_ II. 441 Laws, whether of the purely public or of the private (or contractual) class, as above, have no other object, effect, or use, than in as far as they give birth or termination to rights or obligations. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:55:26 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:55:26 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: <176BE431-6976-11D9-8D8A-000A27D87258@utk.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > Gale? > > Bethany > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > > Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. Gale is a leading publisher. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:59:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:59:52 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:08 -0500, David Bowie wrote: >FWIW, just to add more fuel, in my pronunciation (where @ is short-a): > >can (n., container; v., to put in a container): [k at n] >can (v., showing possibility or permission): [kEn] >cannot/can not (negative of v., possibility): [kEnat] (w/ second > syllable stress) >can't: [k at nt] > >I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor said that only >speakers of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two verbs 'can' and >'can'. I said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a distinction, >and said professor responded that i didn't (by definition, i suppose), >and that i was merely forcing the distinction i'd just demonstrated. > >Not the most glorious moment in the history of teaching about American >dialects, i'd say. Yep, your professor should have known that the "short a split" distinguishing lax "(I) can" from tense "(tin) can" characterizes not only New York City but also the Mid-Atlantic region encompassing Baltimore, Wilmington, and Philadelphia. Labov notes that short a is tensed in a much wider range of environments in the NYC system compared to the Mid-Atlantic system, but in both regions short a is tensed in closed syllables before front nasals (except for auxiliaries and irregular verbs). See: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch13/Ch13.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch17/Ch17.html Hmm, based on Labov's maps the part of Maryland south of DC *is* a bit far south for inclusion in the Mid-Atlantic system. Perhaps that region (or your idiolect) is influenced by Baltimore? I also wonder how extensive your short-a split is beyond the nasal environment -- you might have grown up in a transitional region. The NYC and Mid-Atlantic regions are separated by a swath of New Jersey that lacks the short a split (or has an intermediate system in which short a is tensed only before /n/ and in a few other lexical items). I grew up in a part of central New Jersey where short a is tensed very sporadically if at all. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 21:05:05 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:05:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Double Jeopardy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: double jeopardy (OED 1910) 1862 Stephen Vincent Benet _A treatise on military law and the practice of courts-martial_ (ed. 2) 103 This case disposeof the question of _autrefois acquit_, or of _autrefois convict_ at common law, or of double jeopardy of life and limb, for the same offence, in the amendments of the constitution. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jan 18 21:24:22 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:24:22 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> > Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. > >Gale is a leading publisher. Ah - thanks. I am checking it out. Bethany From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 18 21:27:09 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:27:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Double Jeopardy" Message-ID: <> Fox v. State of Ohio, 46 U.S. 410, 431 (1847) (argument of plaintiff in error). John Baker From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 21:57:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:57:03 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B30@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: chain gang (OED 1834) 1833 [copyright 1831] Henry St. Clair _The United States Criminal Calendar_ 350 (Making of Modern Law) He was then taken out and lodged in the same room with the chain gang convicts, who are permitted to work abroad in the city every day. 1833 James Ross _An Essay on Prison Discipline_ (ed. 2) 16 (Making of Modern Law) It is a matter of daily observation that the men sentenced to the chain-gang from the service probably of a settler ... at first fall of considerably and are much wasted. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:09:26 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:09:26 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Extradition" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: extradition (OED 1839) 1810 Bijnkershoek, Cornelis von. A treatise on the law of war. 174 (Making of Modern Law) The important question respecting the delivering up, or as it has is called, the _extradition_ of deserters from one country to another, has been the subject of much controversy in _America_ as well as in _Europe_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:20:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:20:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:57:03 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >chain gang (OED 1834) > >1833 [copyright 1831] Henry St. Clair _The United States Criminal >Calendar_ 350 (Making of Modern Law) He was then taken out and lodged in >the same room with the chain gang convicts, who are permitted to work >abroad in the city every day. > >1833 James Ross _An Essay on Prison Discipline_ (ed. 2) 16 (Making of >Modern Law) It is a matter of daily observation that the men sentenced to >the chain-gang from the service probably of a settler ... at first fall of >considerably and are much wasted. >From APS via Proquest: 1831 _Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post_ 19 Feb. 3/4 At New Orleans, on the 26th ult. a sailor, named Borden, was stabbed to the heart by a man called the Jack of Clubs, who was attempting to rob him of a handkerchief. The murderer had just been discharged from the chain gang. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:32:23 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:32:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Juvenile Delinquent" In-Reply-To: <200501182208.j0IM8C7R007319@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: juvenile delinquent (OED 1817) 1816 _Report of the Committee for Investigating the Causes of the Alarming Increase of Juvenile Delinquency in the Metropolis_ 21 The severity of the criminal code, which inflicts the punishment of death on upwards of two hundred offences, acts very unfavourably on the mind of the juvenile delinquent. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:32:37 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:32:37 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:20:58 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:57:03 -0500, Fred Shapiro >wrote: > >>chain gang (OED 1834) >> >>1833 [copyright 1831] Henry St. Clair _The United States Criminal >>Calendar_ 350 (Making of Modern Law) He was then taken out and lodged in >>the same room with the chain gang convicts, who are permitted to work >>abroad in the city every day. >> >>1833 James Ross _An Essay on Prison Discipline_ (ed. 2) 16 (Making of >>Modern Law) It is a matter of daily observation that the men sentenced to >>the chain-gang from the service probably of a settler ... at first fall of >>considerably and are much wasted. > >>From APS via Proquest: > >1831 _Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post_ 19 Feb. 3/4 At New Orleans, on the >26th ult. a sailor, named Borden, was stabbed to the heart by a man called >the Jack of Clubs, who was attempting to rob him of a handkerchief. The >murderer had just been discharged from the chain gang. 1830 _Times_ (London) 18 June 4/2 In the month of November, 1826, General Darling altered the sentence of two soldiers who had been convicted at the quarter-sessions there of a felony, and sentenced to seven years' transportation, and instead of allowing them to undergo that punishment, he issued a regimental order, directing that they should be worked in chains in the public roads for the period of seven years; that they should be stripped of their uniforms, and dressed in felons' clothes; and that they should be worked in chain gangs, after being drummed publicly on parade out of the garrison, as rogues. --Ben Zimmer From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 18 22:39:07 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:39:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Extradition" Message-ID: <> United States v. Robins, 27 F.Cas. 825, 870 (D.S.C. 1799). The Metzger case referred to does not appear to be available on Westlaw. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Extradition" extradition (OED 1839) 1810 Bijnkershoek, Cornelis von. A treatise on the law of war. 174 (Making of Modern Law) The important question respecting the delivering up, or as it has is called, the _extradition_ of deserters from one country to another, has been the subject of much controversy in _America_ as well as in _Europe_. Fred Shapiro From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 23:51:24 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:51:24 -0500 Subject: can( )not (was: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <200501180500.AAA16634@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Just a couple of remarks on *can( )not* from a native speaker of Standard Southern British English. 1. INITIAL STRESS: As Larry and dInIs have said, there are indeed British dialects that stress the first syllable of *cannot* (note the spelling, and see point 2). Personally, though I'm a middle-class speaker from London, I wouldn't have identified the initial stress as an RP feature, which isn't to say that it isn't one, of course. But there definitely are the following: - the stereotyped Scottish pronunciation ['kaen@], usually rendered - Geordie and other dialects of the North-East of England, which have ['kaen@?] (where [?] is a glottal stop) 2. SPELLING: The spelling *can not* has always struck me as an American-only variant, but that is only anecdotal; I don't know whether other Brits on the list would back me up, or whether a Google search for *can not* would show predominately American sites or posters for it. As far as teaching goes, all I can say is that I was probably taught how to spell *cannot* around 1980 and that I was not aware of *can not* with narrow scope, really, until I came to America, unless it was from American sources. Obviously, though, there's now a generation that has been taught that sort of thing since I was taught it, so practices may have been widened. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 00:06:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:06:08 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: I first heard "Tarzhay" in the early '90s, though I now see I was behind the curve. The first of these corporate nicknames to reach my notice were "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both around 1983-84. Since then "Taco Hell" and "Pizza Slut" have come along. "Burger Thing" never got into HDAS, but I've used it. My wife says "Food Hyena." There's also "Office Creepo," formerly "Office Clown" (i.e., "Depot" & "Town"). JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack #Pizza Time = pizza crime #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer #Pizza Hut = pizza slut #Taco Bell = toxic hell I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. mark by hand __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 19 01:04:16 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:04:16 -0500 Subject: Yet another new blend: "folksonomy" Message-ID: Hard to keep track of all the new cyberblends. Now there's "folksonomy". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folksonomy http://www.iawiki.net/FolksOnomy Some cites: Gene Smith, "Atomiq: Folksonomy: social classification." Aug 3, 2004 http://atomiq.org/archives/2004/08/folksonomy_social_classification.html Last week I asked the AIfIA members' list what they thought about the social classification happening at Furl, Flickr and Del.icio.us. In each of these systems people classify their pictures/bookmarks/web pages with tags (e.g. wedding), and then the most popular tags float to the top (e.g. Flickr's tags or Del.icio.us on the right). Thomas Vander Wal, in his reply, coined a great name for these informal social categories: a folksonomy. Thomas Vander Wal, "You Down with Folksonomy?" Aug 4, 2004 http://www.vanderwal.net/random/entrysel.php?blog=1529 Gene supplies a good overview of Folksonomy, which is the bottom-up social classification that takes place on Flickr, del.icio.us, etc. Clay Shirkey, "Folksonomy." Aug 25, 2004 http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2004/08/25/folksonomy.php Folksonomy, a new term for socially created, typically flat name-spaces of the del.icio.us ilk, coined by Thomas Vander Wal. Adam Mathes, "Folksonomies - Cooperative Classification and Communication Through Shared Metadata." December 2004 http://www.adammathes.com/academic/computer-mediated-communication/folksonomies.html The organic system of organization developing in Delicious and Flickr was called a “folksonomy” by Thomas Vander Wal in a discussion on an information architecture mailing list (Smith, 2004). It is a combination of "folk" and "taxonomy." Louis Rosenfeld, "Folksonomies? How about Metadata Ecologies?" Jan 6, 2005 http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000330.html Lately, you can't surf information architecture blogs for five minutes without stumbling on a discussion of folksonomies (there; it happened again!). Peter van Dijck, "Emergent i18n effects in folksonomies." Jan 15, 2005 http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2005/01/15/2419/ Folksonomies are taxonomies created by users who add tags to things. Folksonomies are messy and have a lot of problems, but their great merit is that they're scalable and they use the users' terminology by definition, a serious problem with more classic taxonomies that are created by information architects or librarians. --Ben Zimmer From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 01:37:10 2005 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:37:10 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I first heard "Tarzhay" in the early '90s, though I now see I was behind the > curve. The first of these corporate nicknames to reach my notice were > "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both around 1983-84. > Since then "Taco Hell" and "Pizza Slut" have come along. > > "Burger Thing" never got into HDAS, but I've used it. My wife says "Food > Hyena." There's also "Office Creepo," formerly "Office Clown" (i.e., > "Depot" & "Town"). In the 80's and early 90's my friends and I also used "Little Seizure's" (Little Caesar's) and "Cropduster" (Blockbuster Video). McDonald's was affectionately known as "McDeath". I can't even guess what "Food Hyena" would be. Jeff Prucher > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: > > #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: > #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack > #Pizza Time = pizza crime > #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer > #Pizza Hut = pizza slut > #Taco Bell = toxic hell > > I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of > these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. > > mark by hand > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 02:20:47 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:20:47 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <20050119013710.60692.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote: > I can't even guess what "Food Hyena" would be. Food Lion. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 02:23:30 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:23:30 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <20050119000608.93059.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 4:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ... "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both > around 1983-84. i have HoJo's from at least 1959, when Howard Johnson's took over catering [in some sense] for the Princeton Freshman Commons. arnold From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Jan 19 02:43:17 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:43:17 -0500 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. In-Reply-To: <20050119022055.E134D7AE28@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jan 19 03:53:45 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:53:45 -0500 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no >one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in >the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. > >Erik ------- Monkey Ward was the standard nickname for MW in the 30s, at least, and probably earlier. We used to call Abercrombie & Fitch "Evergrabby & Snatch." A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 04:31:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:31:29 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 1:14 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson writ: >>>> > On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > [...] >> As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case > > Et _tu_, Laurentie?! > <<< > > Et tu, Wilson? > Marcus Laurentius > Marci Laurenti > Marco Laurentio > Marcum Laurentium > Marco Laurentio > Marce Laurenti <----- > > Second declension nouns in -ius take the vocative in long -i, not -ie. > > A manu scripsit Marcus Mandelensis > Nonhaudquaquam. Sed bonus dormitat Homerus. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 04:44:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:44:00 EST Subject: "You can't be serious" (June 22, 1981) Message-ID: It's "You can't be serious," not "You cannot be serious." You cannot always get what you want. ... ... ... YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS by John McEnroe with James Kaplan New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons 2002 ... Pg. 132: Although this was to become one of my most famous matches, I'm positive almost nobody remembers who I played, and where I played it: Tom Gullikson, first round, Wimbledon, 1981. ... Pg. 133: I threw my _new_ racket and gave a scream that came straight from Queens--but that traveled very far in the years since. ... ""Man, you cannot be serious!" ... (...) ... "You guys are the absolute pits of the world you know that?" I screamed. Another colorful bit of Queens-ese. ... ... 22 June 1981, New York Post, pg. 53, col. 3: "Why can't I argue--is it against the law to argue?" McEnroe snapped. ... In the 12th game he hammered his racquet on the turf and shouted at James after a sideline placement was called out. The crowd, which had been solidly on McEnroe's side, then began a slow handclap as a sign of disapproval, and resumed it in the tie-breaker when he argued over a service fault. ... Before the seventh game of the second set, while changing ends, McEnroe banged his chair with his racquet. ...' This brought a rebuke from James, who said: "You are misusing your racquet, Mr. McEnroe." ... Two games later another call went against McEnroe. ... "You can't be serious," McEnroe shrieked at the umpire. "You are an incompetent fool, an offense against the world." ... ... ... 23 June 1981, New York Daily News, pg. 52, col. 3: Two game later another call went against McEnroe. "You can't be serious," McEnroe shrieked at the umpires. "You are an incompetent fool, an offense against the world." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 19 04:50:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:50:27 -0500 Subject: Yet another new blend: "folksonomy" Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:04:16 -0500, I wrote: >Hard to keep track of all the new cyberblends. Now there's "folksonomy". >See: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folksonomy >http://www.iawiki.net/FolksOnomy > >Some cites: > >Gene Smith, "Atomiq: Folksonomy: social classification." Aug 3, 2004 >http://atomiq.org/archives/2004/08/folksonomy_social_classification.html >Last week I asked the AIfIA members' list what they thought about the >social classification happening at Furl, Flickr and Del.icio.us. In each >of these systems people classify their pictures/bookmarks/web pages with >tags (e.g. wedding), and then the most popular tags float to the top (e.g. >Flickr's tags or Del.icio.us on the right). Thomas Vander Wal, in his >reply, coined a great name for these informal social categories: a >folksonomy. [snip] I was wondering if any of these techno-folk were at all familiar with the anthropological current known variously ethnoscience, ethnographic semantics, or cognitive anthropology -- Conklin, Frake, et al. were analyzing "folk taxonomies" back in the mid-'50s. >From the looks of this blog entry by Peter Merholz, those in the "information architecture" field are just discovering this work: --------- http://www.peterme.com/archives/000387.html "Ethnoclassification and vernacular vocabularies" (August 30, 2004) First off, I think we should drop the term "folksonomy." No offense to Thomas -- it's a catchy term, which, I guess, is why it has caught on. It's also inaccurate. What bugs me most is the use of the word "taxonomy." Taxonomies tend toward hierarchy, and they tend to be imposed. Tagging does not a taxonomy make. What we're talking about here is "classification." In rooting around, trying to find some prior research on this topic, I plugged "folk classification" into Google, it turns out that anthropologists have done some thinking around this, particularly with respect to ethnobiology, or how the folk approach biology, and ethnoscience. This lead me to think that the appropriate term would be "ethnoclassification", and when I plugged that into Google, I found "Slouching Toward Infrastructure", a page for a 1996 Digital Libraries Workshop lead by Susan Leigh Star. --------- Merholz expanded on "ethnoclassification" in a widely cited article called "Metadata for the Masses" (October 19, 2004): http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000361.php He gives UCSD communications professor Susan Leigh Star credit for coining "ethnoclassification", but I'm sure that Leigh Star is aware of the term's history in cognitive anthropology. A quick search finds cites in anthropological journals back to the '70s, and I'd guess that it dates back to the '50s. Regardless of the term's pedigree, it looks like "folksonomy" has indeed become the preferred buzzword. The digerati sure love blending... --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 04:53:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:53:31 -0500 Subject: The name "Womack" Message-ID: I have friends, both black and white and from both Texas and Oklahoma, with this surname. They all agree that this name is pronounced approx. [w^m at k]. However, everybody that I know or have heard of with this name who is *not* from either TX or OK - regardless of race, creed, color, country of origin, or sexual orientation - pronounces the name as approx. [womaek]. Is this another coincidence, like "irregardless"? Or are Texas and Oklahoma truly out of step with the rest of the country? -Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 05:04:24 2005 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:04:24 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20The=20name=20"Womack"?= Message-ID: Assuming the name is most common in TX/OK, and not too common elsewhere, this is likely a case of the "locals" pronouncing a local name their way, while those outside the area, not hearing it spoken often, say it as they read it according to the normal rules of pronunciation. This occurs often with town and city names. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 19 05:05:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:05:32 -0500 Subject: "You can't be serious" (June 22, 1981) Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:44:00 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >It's "You can't be serious," not "You cannot be serious." You cannot always >get what you want. > [snip] > >22 June 1981, New York Post, pg. 53, col. 3: [...] >"You can't be serious," McEnroe shrieked at the umpire. "You are an >incompetent fool, an offense against the world." >... >... >... >23 June 1981, New York Daily News, pg. 52, col. 3: >Two game later another call went against McEnroe. "You can't be serious," >McEnroe shrieked at the umpires. "You are an incompetent fool, an offense >against the world." Actually, I think he said both -- according to various sources the outburst went: "You can't be serious, man... You canNOT be serious!" Here's one rendition of the complete tantrum: http://www.bbc.tv/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A640081 Mac: The ball... chalk came up off of the ball... (walks toward umpire's chair) Umpire: It was a bit of chalk spread Mr McEnroe, that was a good call. Mac: Excuse me? Umpire: It was a good call... Mac: You can't be serious man; you CANNOT BE SERIOUS! That ball was on the line! Chalk flew up! (Waves his arms to demonstrate.) It was clearly in! How can you POSSIBLY call that out?!? (Audience starts to clap - possibly in appreciation for this bit of entertainment.) How can you even miss?!? Now he's walking over, and everyone knows it's in in this whole stadium. And you call that out?!? Explain that to me! You can hear "You cannot be serious! That ball was on the line! Chalk flew up!" via the audio link I provided earlier, accessible from this page: http://simplythebest.net/sounds/other_formats/Sun_Audio/miscellaneous_au.html --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 07:21:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:21:45 EST Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) Message-ID: PREACHING TO THE CHOIR--150,000 Google hits, 42,700 (Not in OED. The OUP doesn't hire choirboys.) ... Jets coach Herman Edwards was asked about keeping free agent running back Lamont Jordan. Edwards would like to keep him, he said, but that's "preaching to the choir." ... What does the revised OED have in store? ... The Newspaperarchive citation appears bad. Surprisingly, the next citation appears to be a late 1970. ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Nashua Reporter _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2uGIogR4goW5qXXpdYO8LVGUNB3I6gXroA==) Wednesday, October 06, 1937 _Nashua,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:nashua+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) ...church' at 'Nashua. I felt "more like, PREACHING TO THE CHOIR ttian THE.....TO sell. THE president talked on THE rummage sale TO he held during.. ... _Nashua Reporter _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2uGIogR4goW5JfeDA/C+EiKUNB3I6gXroA==) Wednesday, October 06, 1937 _Nashua,_ (http://www.ne wspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:nashua+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) ...lyedv and f8e.Te.raf 'UookVpaclt like PREACHING TO THE CHOIR than HO sell. THE.....was asTOnished TO see cation address. CHOIR anTHEms will be given at each.. ..Pg. 4?, col. 3: I felt more like preaching to the choir than the audience. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPER) ... 1. _Pentagon Expert Says Soviet Has 300 SS-9s_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=145365212&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam e=HNP&TS=1106118046&clientId=65882) By Michael GetlerWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Sep 24, 1970. p. A27 (1 page) : ... Porter spoke yesterday before a packed Air Force Association seminar on "the threat" to national security. Admitting that this was like "preaching to the choir," he nevertheless went on to detail a rather gloomy Pentagon view of declining U.S. defense capabilities in the face of an increasingly well armed Soviet Union. ... 2. _The "Reckless" Talk About Military Spending; Agnew Pep Meeting vs. Congressional Views _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=144185972&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106118046&clientId =65882) By Michael Getler. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1971. p. A18 (1 page) ... 3. _Industry's Conflict on Bribery Abroad Is Laid to Guidelines 'After the Fact'; LACK OF GUIDANCE FOUND ON BRIBERY _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=78274147&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN ame=HNP&TS=1106118046&clientId=65882) By RICHARD PHALON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 5, 1975. p. 57 (2 pages) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Jan 19 13:19:20 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:19:20 -0500 Subject: Monkey Wards Message-ID: I've heard this in the 1960s. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 19 13:40:33 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:40:33 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_The_name_"Womack"?= In-Reply-To: <127.53d63a69.2f1f4458@aol.com> Message-ID: An aunt of mine was married to a man Womack: they did not pronounce it the TX/OH way. I'll resist responding further to the "are Texas and Oklahoma out of step" question. Grant Barrett On Jan 19, 2005, at 00:04, Steve Boatti wrote: > Assuming the name is most common in TX/OK, and not too common > elsewhere, this > is likely a case of the "locals" pronouncing a local name their way, > while > those outside the area, not hearing it spoken often, say it as they > read it > according to the normal rules of pronunciation. This occurs often with > town and > city names. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 19 14:06:06 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:06:06 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: From: Benjamin Zimmer : On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:08 -0500, David Bowie wrote: :: I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor said that only :: speakers of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two verbs 'can' :: and 'can'. I said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a :: distinction, and said professor responded that i didn't (by definition, :: i suppose), and that i was merely forcing the distinction i'd just :: demonstrated. :: Not the most glorious moment in the history of teaching about :: American dialects, i'd say. : Yep, your professor should have known that the "short a split" : distinguishing lax "(I) can" from tense "(tin) can" characterizes not : only New York City but also the Mid-Atlantic region encompassing : Baltimore, Wilmington, and Philadelphia... Even to the extent that it had never occurred to me before the incident i mentioned that rhymes matching "(I) can" with ?an words (ban, man, tan, &c.) could be *actual* rhymes, as opposed to laziness on the part of the poet. : Hmm, based on Labov's maps the part of Maryland south of DC *is* a : bit far south for inclusion in the Mid-Atlantic system. Perhaps that : region (or your idiolect) is influenced by Baltimore? I also wonder how : extensive your short-a split is beyond the nasal environment -- you might : have grown up in a transitional region. Actually, the LAB maps show Southern Maryland as a kind of a linguistic no-man's-land, unassigned to any region. It's kind of fun being from a nobody knows sort of place. Anyway, it could be a transitional thing, maybe--but there really isn't any Baltimore influence the speak of in the part of Southern Maryland i grew up in (as opposed to Calvert County), unless it came indirectly from Annapolis. Kurath & McDavid pool Southern Maryland in with the Virginia Piedmont region. Given my experience with speakers from the Virginia side of the Potomac, i think that's probably correct, though Northern norms seem to be creeping into Southern Maryland (see, for example, my own work on the disappearance of monophthongal /ai/ there)--though they may be creeping into the rest of the Virgninia Piedmont, as well. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 19 13:59:03 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:59:03 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : At 9:32 AM -0500 1/18/05, David Bowie wrote: :: Okay, i've tried, and i just can't (no pun intended) get the :: distinction from the orthography. To me, the two sentences "An :: Episcopalian priest cannot/can not marry" are both quite equally :: ambiguous, at least in written form.... : Very interesting. So for you it's possible to write : An Episcopalian priest cannot marry if he doesn't want to marry. : You cannot go to the meeting, can't you? Yes--and they're both ambiguous. : If you can write the above sentences in the indicated way, do you : distinguish between the "cannot" versions and the inflected versions : with "can't", i.e. : An Episcopalian priest can't marry if he doesn't want to marry. : You can't go to the meeting, can't you? : ? Or are these possible for you as well? Oooooooooooooooh, cool! The first one forces the meaning that an Episcopalian priest's unwillingness to marry makes it impossible for him to get married--that is, "can't" can only be what was originally claimed as solely "cannot". The second sentence is right out, though if it's "You can't go to the meeting, can you?" it would be *marginal* as saying it's impossible for you to go to the meeting--AIR, also the meaning originally claimed for "cannot". Seems to suggest that i *do* have a cannot/can not distinction, but it's utterly detached from orthography. Interesting. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 19 14:11:21 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:11:21 +0000 Subject: JONG Message-ID: In 'Swimming Sinners', by Ralph Burch (Hustler paperbacks, c1980) online at http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels/hp10/Ralph_Burch.Swi msuit_Sinners.hp10-280.txt I came across 'jong' for penis. At first I assumed it was a misprint for 'dong' or 'yang', but have now come across two more instances, and I'm only half-way through. Any record of this term elsewhere? Neil neil at typog.co.uk From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 14:52:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:52:06 -0800 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. Message-ID: Indeed, "Monkey Ward" has been used since 1918 at least. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no >one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in >the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. > >Erik ------- Monkey Ward was the standard nickname for MW in the 30s, at least, and probably earlier. We used to call Abercrombie & Fitch "Evergrabby & Snatch." A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 14:53:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:53:21 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: It's "Food Lion," a large supermarket chain in the South. JL Jeff Prucher wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jeff Prucher Subject: Re: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I first heard "Tarzhay" in the early '90s, though I now see I was behind the > curve. The first of these corporate nicknames to reach my notice were > "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both around 1983-84. > Since then "Taco Hell" and "Pizza Slut" have come along. > > "Burger Thing" never got into HDAS, but I've used it. My wife says "Food > Hyena." There's also "Office Creepo," formerly "Office Clown" (i.e., > "Depot" & "Town"). In the 80's and early 90's my friends and I also used "Little Seizure's" (Little Caesar's) and "Cropduster" (Blockbuster Video). McDonald's was affectionately known as "McDeath". I can't even guess what "Food Hyena" would be. Jeff Prucher > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: > > #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: > #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack > #Pizza Time = pizza crime > #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer > #Pizza Hut = pizza slut > #Taco Bell = toxic hell > > I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of > these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. > > mark by hand > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Jan 19 15:34:04 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:34:04 -0800 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. Message-ID: My mom knew Monkey Wards from when she was a girl/young woman back in the 1940s or 1950s. I also knew 'Taco Hell' long before I heard Mickey D's. Fritz >>> grinchy at GRINCHY.COM 01/18/05 06:43PM >>> In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 15:39:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:39:18 -0800 Subject: "blown out of context" Message-ID: syntactic blends enthusiast liz coppock responds to mark mandel's posting on "blown out of context": ----- Beautiful! Google "taken out of proportion" and you'll get some good ones. ----- arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 15:46:21 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:46:21 -0800 Subject: admirable job titles Message-ID: a NYT Science Times, 1/18/05, p. D3, article about performing autopsies on whales refers to David W. Grunden, one of the volunteers in such an undertaking on Martha's Vineyard, by his job title: "a shellfish constable and herring warden in the Martha's Vineyard town of Oak Bluffs". a perfectly serious and important job, i understand. still, an admirable job title. arnold, construction wrangler From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 19 15:50:29 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:50:29 +0000 Subject: admirable job titles In-Reply-To: <200501191546.j0JFkTt5022091@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 19/1/05 3:46 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: admirable job titles > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > a NYT Science Times, 1/18/05, p. D3, article about performing autopsies > on whales refers to David W. Grunden, one of the volunteers in such an > undertaking on Martha's Vineyard, by his job title: "a shellfish > constable and herring warden in the Martha's Vineyard town of Oak > Bluffs". > > a perfectly serious and important job, i understand. still, an > admirable job title. > > arnold, construction wrangler how about: lexicographer, harmless drudge neil, typographer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 19 15:51:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:51:40 -0500 Subject: JONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:11 PM +0000 1/19/05, neil wrote: >In 'Swimming Sinners', by Ralph Burch (Hustler paperbacks, c1980) online at > >http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels/hp10/Ralph_Burch.Swi >msuit_Sinners.hp10-280.txt > >I came across 'jong' for penis. At first I assumed it was a misprint for >'dong' or 'yang', but have now come across two more instances, and I'm only >half-way through. > >Any record of this term elsewhere? > >Neil >neil at typog.co.uk in homage to Erica ("zipless fuck") Jong, you think? or just a palatalized "dong"? larry From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 19 16:15:20 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:15:20 -0800 Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) In-Reply-To: <192.379d2125.2f1f6489@aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) > > > PREACHING TO THE CHOIR--150,000 Google hits, 42,700 > (Not in OED. The OUP doesn't hire choirboys.) The OED does have "preaching to the converted." 1867 MILL Exam. Hamilton's Philos. (ed. 3) xiv. 319 Dr. M'Cosh is preaching not only to a person already converted, but to an actual missionary of the same doctrine. 1916 G. SAINTSBURY Peace of Augustans iii. 144 One may be said to be preaching to the converted and kicking at open doors in praising..the four great novelists of the eighteenth century. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 17:07:43 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:07:43 -0800 Subject: admirable job titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:50 AM, neil wrote: > on 19/1/05 3:46 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: >> arnold, construction wrangler > > how about: lexicographer, harmless drudge ah, i'm not actually a lexicographer, though i play one on the net sometimes. what i am is an appreciator of lexicography. sometimes i lend a hand to the professionals. arnold From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 19 18:05:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:05:34 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: <200501182239.j0IMd9B2029870@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: > < reference to extradition under a treaty with a foreign state, it is only > necessary to turn to the admirable opinion of Judge Betts, in the late > Case of Metzger [Case No. 9,511]. . . . Whether the judiciary has > authority in habeas corpus, after the fugitive is under arrest, to > prevent his extradition, if the president decides to make it, was not > decided.>> > > United States v. Robins, 27 F.Cas. 825, 870 (D.S.C. 1799). The Metzger > case referred to does not appear to be available on Westlaw. As more and more of our "antedatings" are obtained from online sources, it is more and more important to be conscious of the bibliographic and textual complexities that are so important to the accuracy and the authority of the OED. One of the things that makes Barry Popik's research so special is that he still is in the research libraries looking up print sources when the rest of us are limited to our computers (well, I sometimes get into the stacks, but far less than I used to). The citation above is a great case in point. This is really an 1896 occurrence, not a 1799 occurrence. Federal Cases is a set of books that frequently pops up in Lexis and Westlaw searches without any indication of its true nature. It was a late 19th-century reprint of federal decisions, in which the opinions from older "nominative" reporters are imperceptibly blended in with late 19th-century editorial additions. Here the word "extradition" appears only in the 1896 editorial additions. The Metzger case cited above is an 1847 case, so it clearly could not be referred to in 1799. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 19 18:18:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:18:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" In-Reply-To: <6777.69.142.143.59.1106086858.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 5:20 PM -0500 1/18/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >From APS via Proquest: > >1831 _Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post_ 19 Feb. 3/4 At New Orleans, on the >26th ult. a sailor, named Borden, was stabbed to the heart by a man called >the Jack of Clubs, who was attempting to rob him of a handkerchief. The >murderer had just been discharged from the chain gang. > any relation to Dylan's Jack of Hearts (from "Blood on the Tracks"), another denizen of the underworld? larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 19 18:31:32 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:31:32 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating Message-ID: Fred's warning is well-taken (and I thank him for the correction), but I'm not sure what the answer is, short of checking every online citation against a hard copy. I went back and looked again at the Westlaw document, and there is simply no setoff of the 1896 editorial material from the 1799 document. We clearly don't want to give up our use of online resources, even though they occasionally have errors. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating As more and more of our "antedatings" are obtained from online sources, it is more and more important to be conscious of the bibliographic and textual complexities that are so important to the accuracy and the authority of the OED. One of the things that makes Barry Popik's research so special is that he still is in the research libraries looking up print sources when the rest of us are limited to our computers (well, I sometimes get into the stacks, but far less than I used to). The citation above is a great case in point. This is really an 1896 occurrence, not a 1799 occurrence. Federal Cases is a set of books that frequently pops up in Lexis and Westlaw searches without any indication of its true nature. It was a late 19th-century reprint of federal decisions, in which the opinions from older "nominative" reporters are imperceptibly blended in with late 19th-century editorial additions. Here the word "extradition" appears only in the 1896 editorial additions. The Metzger case cited above is an 1847 case, so it clearly could not be referred to in 1799. Fred Shapiro From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 19:23:28 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:23:28 -0600 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating Message-ID: When I got started doing antedatings, it was from the OED SF project: http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml The guidance given to me by Jeff Prucher, Malcolm Farmer and/or Jesse Sheidlower was to be able to trace it to a page image, at least. Then you aren't dependent on OCR, and can look up the bibliographic info yourself. I've tried to follow this rule since with submissions directly to the OED, the HDAS, and this list. The only place this rule has caused me problems is with the turn of the century sports magazines which have been scanned into the AAFLA's web site: http://www.aafla.org/search/search.htm I'm pretty sure the pdf/"page images" in it are combinations of graphic images, pasted in from scanned originals, and OCR'ed text which has been put into new fonts and otherwise reworked. But they seem to have done an _excellent_ job. Fortunately, most of the big databases that people use here have page images incorporated. Nexis/Lexis and Factiva don't but they are so recent that they don't come into play for most of the antedatings discussed here. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Baker, John > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Pitfalls of Online Antedating > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Pitfalls of Online Antedating > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Fred's warning is well-taken (and I thank him for the > correction), but I'm not sure what the answer is, short of > checking every online citation against a hard copy. I went > back and looked again at the Westlaw document, and there is > simply no setoff of the 1896 editorial material from the 1799 > document. We clearly don't want to give up our use of > online resources, even though they occasionally have errors. > > John Baker > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 19:34:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:34:39 EST Subject: Salade Composee; Next Best Thing to Brad Pitt Message-ID: SALADE COMPOSEE ... OED doesn't have "salade composee" either. Just miserable. Thank goodness for this parking ticket work release program to write a food dictionary. ... I was kindly supplied the following "salade composee" cite by an ADS-L lurker. It's from someone named Julia Child, whoever that is. ... ... ... Can't remember your first citing for 'composed salad' which appears in Simone Beck, Louisette Bertolle & Julia Child's 'Mastering the Art of French Cooking' (Knopf, 1961) Penguin, London, 1966, 579 as 'Salades Composées [don't know if the e acute will come out in email], but the index further defines a Niçoise as a 'Combination', ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Create a Work of Art With Shades of Green on Green; VINAIGRETTE SALADE COMPOSEE The French Chef _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=154833182&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106162273&cl ientId=65882) By Julia Child. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 11, 1967. p. C10 (1 page) ... _French Salads; Salade Compoqsee Julia Child will demonstrate the preparation of today's feature recipe on "The French Chef" on WETA-TV (Channel 26) tonight at 6 and Monday at 8. Last week's recipe may be obtained by sending a stamped, self-addressed envelope to Channel 26, Washington, D.C. 20001. Salade Verte Vinaigrette _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=132592992&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106162273&client Id=65882) By Julia Child. The Washington Post, Times. Aug 17, 1969. p. 159 (1 page) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- NEXT BEST THING TO BRAD PITT ... I keep waiting for ProQuest to add more material to the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune for 2005, but no. So "the Next Best Thing Since Robert Redford" is still on hold. ... If Jennifer Aniston gets too depressed and doesn't want to marry me, she can always have "The Next Best Thing to Brad Pitt." I saw this sold at a bakery on Bleecker Street. (I ate at the Indian restaurant at Bleecker and 7th Avenue.) ... (GOOGLE) ... _The Next Best Thing to BRAD PITT Recipe_ (http://www.recipezaar.com/66338) ADVERTISEMENT - PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS Click Here. you are here: Home > The Next Best Thing to BRAD PITT. ... The Next Best Thing to BRAD PITT #66338. ... www.recipezaar.com/66338 - 27k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:53dV2KT-uy4J:www.recipezaar.com/66338+"next+best+thing +to+brad+pitt"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.recipezaar.com/66338) From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 19 19:43:48 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:43:48 -0500 Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) In-Reply-To: <192.379d2125.2f1f6489@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 02:21:45AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > PREACHING TO THE CHOIR--150,000 Google hits, 42,700 > (Not in OED. The OUP doesn't hire choirboys.) > ... > Jets coach Herman Edwards was asked about keeping free agent running back > Lamont Jordan. Edwards would like to keep him, he said, but that's "preaching to > the choir." > ... > What does the revised OED have in store? OED will incorporate this under the "preach to the converted" lemma. The earliest we have is the 1970 quote in your message, which I don't reproduce here. Jesse Sheidlower OED From marshaalley at MSN.COM Wed Jan 19 19:51:05 2005 From: marshaalley at MSN.COM (Marsha Alley) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:51:05 -0800 Subject: Yet, instead of but ?? Message-ID: I have a friend who has begun to use "yet" to the exclusion of "but." I remember early on in her usage I saw the same thing in print; alas, I cannot remember where. Am I correct that the two are not synonyms and this is a new (and confusing/irritating) usage? Marsha Alley /not a linguist, but somewhat of a language prude From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jan 19 19:54:16 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:54:16 -0500 Subject: Yet, instead of but ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Example? Thanks, Bethany On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Marsha Alley wrote: >I have a friend who has begun to use "yet" to the exclusion of "but." I remember early on in her usage I saw the same thing in print; alas, I cannot remember where. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 19:55:16 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:55:16 -0600 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: Also computer terms: Windoze Microsuck Microshit Microscoff Microsloth Microshaft Tandy/Radioshack TRASH-80 A-O-Hell Mac-in-trash From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 19 19:55:16 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:55:16 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of cutlery. Her message is below. Note her observations that the words are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of piece. Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? Thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED ----- begin included message ----- Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the "Lotus" price list: SPOONS Extra plate, per dozen Leper Mustard $4.75 Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 FORKS etc. Levigated Pickle, Long Levitical Fruit Lewdly Child's Lewdness Fish KNIVES Lexicology Fish Lexigraphy Pie SHELLS Libellous Sugar SIFTERS Magically Sugar CHILD'S SETS Libertine No. 192 LADLES Libidinous Cream Licentious Medium Licorice Soup Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: SPOONS Daunted Egg Dauphin Ice Cream Dayspring Orange Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls Deaconry Bouillon FORKS Deafness Dessert Deathbed Oyster Deathless Fruit Debauch Child's Limitedly Cake Debility Fish and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. ----- end included message ----- From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 19:59:28 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:59:28 -0600 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: It reminds me of the ads for Women's shoes that show up in our newspaper -- I don't know where they get the names of the various lines. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Unusual names for cutlery > > > Her message is below. Note her observations that the words > are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different > ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably > that many of the words are not complimentary, which would > seem to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of piece. > From gorion at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 19 20:38:16 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:38:16 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <8042433129378670828@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Home Despot Office Despot Whore Foods Ho Foods (Whole Paycheck has been discussed) Around Denver there's a grocery store chain called King Soopers. They have a stores is in a historically gay neighborhood and everyone calls that location Queen Soopers. This seems to me a slightly different phenomenon than most of this name-mangling because it refers only to this single location from the chain. In my family -- and presumably in my neighborhood in general, since we were equidistant from Queen Soopers and from another King Soopers store -- we often had occasion to distinguish between the two, and this made it easy. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 19 20:51:46 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:51:46 -0500 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. >From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in 1923: [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." p. 91 I am reading the edition by the Overlook Press, Woodstock & N. Y., 2003 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From gingi at POBOX.COM Wed Jan 19 21:20:13 2005 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:20:13 -0500 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I did) and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more learned folks have any ideas? -- --<@ Rachel L.S. Sommer http://www.gingicat.org "If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jan 19 21:41:22 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:41:22 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! See HDAS. of course. Bethany >My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I did) >and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more learned >folks have any ideas? From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 21:47:35 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:47:35 -0600 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) pg. SM6 "It's hard luck to be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as completely broke as the Ten Commandments." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: broker than the 10 commandments > >> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a > book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. > Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and > familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the > archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. > > From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in > 1923: > [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" > [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." > p. 91 > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 21:49:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:49:51 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! > > See HDAS, of course. > > Bethany Yes, HDAS. The OED says only, "[origin unknown]." -Wilson Gray > >> My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I >> did) >> and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more >> learned >> folks have any ideas? > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 22:07:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:07:36 -0500 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These aren't exactly the same as "_broker_ than...," but they're close enough for government work. Actually, I have nothing serious to say against either of these cites. I just wanted a reason to mention that I appear to have outlived the expression, "close enough for government work." When I use it in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or thereabouts, they have no idea what the point of the expression is. -Wilson Gray On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- > New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest Historical > Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) > pg. SM6 > "It's hard luck to be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as > completely broke as the Ten Commandments." > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: broker than the 10 commandments >> >>> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a >> book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. >> Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and >> familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the >> archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. >> >> From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in >> 1923: >> [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" >> [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." >> p. 91 >> > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 22:09:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:09:06 -0600 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: Well, as a civilian engineer for the U.S. Army, I (unfortunately) know _exactly_ what you mean. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > These aren't exactly the same as "_broker_ than...," but > they're close enough for government work. Actually, I have > nothing serious to say against either of these cites. I just > wanted a reason to mention that I appear to have outlived the > expression, "close enough for government work." When I use it > in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or thereabouts, they > have no idea what the point of the expression is. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- > > New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest > Historical > > Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) pg. SM6 "It's > hard luck to > > be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as > completely broke as > > the Ten Commandments." > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society > >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: broker than the 10 commandments > >> > >>> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a > >> book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. > >> Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and > familiar, and > >> someone else also responded, but if I read the archives > correctly no > >> one produced an example from before 1954. > >> > >> From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally > published in > >> 1923: > >> [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" > >> [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." > >> p. 91 > >> > > > From marshaalley at MSN.COM Wed Jan 19 22:14:13 2005 From: marshaalley at MSN.COM (Marsha Alley) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:14:13 -0800 Subject: Yet, instead of but ?? Message-ID: Oops - forgot that little detail. Please ignore other grammar and punctuation - this was informal emailing: "I know I've mentioned it before, yet there are amino acids that are great for cravings and they work." ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: Re: Yet, instead of but ?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Example? Thanks, Bethany On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Marsha Alley wrote: >I have a friend who has begun to use "yet" to the exclusion of "but." I remember early on in her usage I saw the same thing in print; alas, I cannot remember where. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 22:18:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:18:18 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and that the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. -Wilson Gray On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Unusual names for cutlery > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. > > A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American > cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain > descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of > cutlery. > > Her message is below. Note her observations that the words > are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different > ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably > that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem > to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of > piece. > > Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? > > Thanks. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ----- begin included message ----- > > Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around > 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and > knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various > patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each > pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the > left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the > "Lotus" price list: > > SPOONS Extra > plate, per dozen > > Leper Mustard $4.75 > Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 > Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 > > FORKS > etc. > > Levigated Pickle, Long > Levitical Fruit > Lewdly Child's > Lewdness Fish > > KNIVES > > Lexicology Fish > Lexigraphy Pie > > SHELLS > > Libellous Sugar > > SIFTERS > > Magically Sugar > > CHILD'S SETS > > Libertine No. 192 > > LADLES > > Libidinous Cream > Licentious Medium > Licorice Soup > > Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: > > SPOONS > > Daunted Egg > Dauphin Ice Cream > Dayspring Orange > Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls > Deaconry Bouillon > > FORKS > > Deafness Dessert > Deathbed Oyster > Deathless Fruit > Debauch Child's > Limitedly Cake > Debility Fish > > and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up > the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the > catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make > sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least > half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. > > ----- end included message ----- > From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 22:48:52 2005 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:48:52 -0800 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: --- Wilson Gray wrote: > > I just wanted a reason to mention that I > appear to have outlived the expression, "close enough for government > work." When I use it in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or > thereabouts, they have no idea what the point of the expression is. That's surprising to me. When I was but a preemie in my 20's (I'm an infant in my 30's now), I temped for the administrative office of the Judicial Council of California for a year or so, and the phrase "good enough for government work" was never far from my lips (but far enough that my supervisors didn't hear me say it), and people seemed to know what I meant. Jeff Prucher __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 22:57:19 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:57:19 -0800 Subject: probably just a spelling error, but... Message-ID: from the Palo Alto Daily News, 1/4/05, p. 7, article by Edward Carpenter, "Two killed in unrelated Taser incidents": ----- According to Warner, Barajas appeared unaffected by the first stun gun shot, used his machete to cut the wires of [the] second shot and charged police on the third shot, jumping through the window of a house where he had been hold up for about seven hours. ----- it's barely possible that the writer thought that "hold" made more sense than the rarer word "holed". most likely, it was dictated, and "holed" ended up being replaced by the more common spelling "hold". arnold From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Jan 19 23:16:44 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:16:44 -0600 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: <05842EA2-6A68-11D9-ADCE-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: Wasn't it "Wistful Vista Drive"? Wilson Gray wrote: > I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. > sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and that > the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >> Subject: Unusual names for cutlery >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. >> >> A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >> cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >> descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >> cutlery. >> >> Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >> are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >> ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >> that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >> to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >> piece. >> >> Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> >> ----- begin included message ----- >> >> Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >> 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >> knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >> patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each >> pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >> left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >> "Lotus" price list: >> >> SPOONS Extra >> plate, per dozen >> >> Leper Mustard $4.75 >> Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >> Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 >> >> FORKS >> etc. >> >> Levigated Pickle, Long >> Levitical Fruit >> Lewdly Child's >> Lewdness Fish >> >> KNIVES >> >> Lexicology Fish >> Lexigraphy Pie >> >> SHELLS >> >> Libellous Sugar >> >> SIFTERS >> >> Magically Sugar >> >> CHILD'S SETS >> >> Libertine No. 192 >> >> LADLES >> >> Libidinous Cream >> Licentious Medium >> Licorice Soup >> >> Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: >> >> SPOONS >> >> Daunted Egg >> Dauphin Ice Cream >> Dayspring Orange >> Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >> Deaconry Bouillon >> >> FORKS >> >> Deafness Dessert >> Deathbed Oyster >> Deathless Fruit >> Debauch Child's >> Limitedly Cake >> Debility Fish >> >> and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up >> the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >> catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >> sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least >> half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. >> >> ----- end included message ----- >> > > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 23:32:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:32:39 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes. I remember hearing it as "Wiss Vovista" and wondering what that was. Even I was so young at the time that neither "wistful" nor "vista" was in my vocabulary. -Wilson On Jan 19, 2005, at 6:16 PM, paulzjoh wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wasn't it "Wistful Vista Drive"? > > Wilson Gray wrote: > >> I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. >> sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and >> that >> the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >>> Subject: Unusual names for cutlery >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. >>> >>> A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >>> cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >>> descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >>> cutlery. >>> >>> Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >>> are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >>> ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >>> that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >>> to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >>> piece. >>> >>> Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Jesse Sheidlower >>> OED >>> >>> ----- begin included message ----- >>> >>> Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >>> 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >>> knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >>> patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in >>> each >>> pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >>> left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >>> "Lotus" price list: >>> >>> SPOONS >>> Extra >>> plate, per dozen >>> >>> Leper Mustard $4.75 >>> Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >>> Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 >>> >>> FORKS >>> etc. >>> >>> Levigated Pickle, Long >>> Levitical Fruit >>> Lewdly Child's >>> Lewdness Fish >>> >>> KNIVES >>> >>> Lexicology Fish >>> Lexigraphy Pie >>> >>> SHELLS >>> >>> Libellous Sugar >>> >>> SIFTERS >>> >>> Magically Sugar >>> >>> CHILD'S SETS >>> >>> Libertine No. 192 >>> >>> LADLES >>> >>> Libidinous Cream >>> Licentious Medium >>> Licorice Soup >>> >>> Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: >>> >>> SPOONS >>> >>> Daunted Egg >>> Dauphin Ice Cream >>> Dayspring Orange >>> Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >>> Deaconry Bouillon >>> >>> FORKS >>> >>> Deafness Dessert >>> Deathbed Oyster >>> Deathless Fruit >>> Debauch Child's >>> Limitedly Cake >>> Debility Fish >>> >>> and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks >>> up >>> the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >>> catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >>> sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at >>> least >>> half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. >>> >>> ----- end included message ----- >>> >> >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 23:37:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:37:53 -0800 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: "Close enough for government work": first heard this in 1973 from a Bard College undergrad who later went into DNA-splicin' and bio-engineerin'. You have been warned. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These aren't exactly the same as "_broker_ than...," but they're close enough for government work. Actually, I have nothing serious to say against either of these cites. I just wanted a reason to mention that I appear to have outlived the expression, "close enough for government work." When I use it in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or thereabouts, they have no idea what the point of the expression is. -Wilson Gray On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- > New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest Historical > Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) > pg. SM6 > "It's hard luck to be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as > completely broke as the Ten Commandments." > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: broker than the 10 commandments >> >>> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a >> book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. >> Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and >> familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the >> archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. >> >> From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in >> 1923: >> [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" >> [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." >> p. 91 >> > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 23:42:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:42:01 -0800 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: Mr. Chester Riley (William Bendix) and family resided at 1313 Blue View Terrace, an address worthy of Dickens. JL paulzjoh wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: paulzjoh Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wasn't it "Wistful Vista Drive"? Wilson Gray wrote: > I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. > sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and that > the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >> Subject: Unusual names for cutlery >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. >> >> A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >> cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >> descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >> cutlery. >> >> Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >> are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >> ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >> that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >> to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >> piece. >> >> Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> >> ----- begin included message ----- >> >> Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >> 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >> knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >> patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each >> pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >> left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >> "Lotus" price list: >> >> SPOONS Extra >> plate, per dozen >> >> Leper Mustard $4.75 >> Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >> Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 >> >> FORKS >> etc. >> >> Levigated Pickle, Long >> Levitical Fruit >> Lewdly Child's >> Lewdness Fish >> >> KNIVES >> >> Lexicology Fish >> Lexigraphy Pie >> >> SHELLS >> >> Libellous Sugar >> >> SIFTERS >> >> Magically Sugar >> >> CHILD'S SETS >> >> Libertine No. 192 >> >> LADLES >> >> Libidinous Cream >> Licentious Medium >> Licorice Soup >> >> Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: >> >> SPOONS >> >> Daunted Egg >> Dauphin Ice Cream >> Dayspring Orange >> Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >> Deaconry Bouillon >> >> FORKS >> >> Deafness Dessert >> Deathbed Oyster >> Deathless Fruit >> Debauch Child's >> Limitedly Cake >> Debility Fish >> >> and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up >> the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >> catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >> sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least >> half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. >> >> ----- end included message ----- >> > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 23:51:06 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:51:06 -0800 Subject: Eye-catching snack name In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050116004849.02f7c150@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2005, at 9:59 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American > Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's > Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other > products > from the same company, chips or whatever. > > Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's > Booty". Probably a few bags should sell on the name alone. Will these > be > permitted in school lunches? Am I the last one to notice this product > on > the shelf? the first three of these were among the first solid foods consumed by the utterly adorable opal eleanor armstrong zwicky. as i recall, no salt or sugar beyond what's in the raw ingredients to start with, and no wheat flour. opal was especially fond of the Veggie version, because of the broccoli, we think. now she has lots of teeth and takes her broccoli raw and straight. i'd never heard of the products before then. now i discover that my grad students snack on them (when they can refrain from descending into chocolate). arnold From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 19 23:53:25 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:53:25 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: <20050119195516.GA19424@panix.com> Message-ID: These appear to be arbitrary words taken from a dictionary. As Jesse Sheidlower pointed out, they are not chosen for any advertising purpose and their meanings are of no consequence AFAICT. I can see two advantages to having a unique arbitrary word attached to each catalogue item: (1) to enable briefer messages when ordering the items; (2) to provide redundancy and avoid errors (if the code-word accompanied clear text). Nowadays we'd have something like "Item # XY-00067-J" available as the code for a certain product. However, back in the day a single word would have been advantageous, particularly when sent by telegraph: (1) the telegraph operator would be less likely to make an error; (2) if the telegraph charges were by word, the code word would be cheaper than an alphanumeric gobbledegook (e.g., "XY-00067-J" would be billed as eight words maybe). Just a guess. -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 19 23:59:10 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:59:10 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: I guess there's something about that 1313 combination. The Munsters, of course, lived at 1313 Mockingbird Lane. Were there any other 1313 addresses? It's not quite the same, but Donald Duck's license plate, in the comic books, was 313. This was back in the days when license plate numbers were shorter. Our license plate, when I was a boy, was 920. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery Mr. Chester Riley (William Bendix) and family resided at 1313 Blue View Terrace, an address worthy of Dickens. JL From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 01:06:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:06:53 -0500 Subject: probably just a spelling error, but... In-Reply-To: <78AACF8D-6A6D-11D9-9253-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 2:57 PM -0800 1/19/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from the Palo Alto Daily News, 1/4/05, p. 7, article by Edward >Carpenter, "Two killed in unrelated Taser incidents": >----- >According to Warner, Barajas appeared unaffected by the first stun gun >shot, used his machete to cut the wires of [the] second shot and >charged police on the third shot, jumping through the window of a house >where he had been hold up for about seven hours. >----- > >it's barely possible that the writer thought that "hold" made more >sense than the rarer word "holed". most likely, it was dictated, and >"holed" ended up being replaced by the more common spelling "hold". > >arnold with "hold up" as a--what it's called, meme?--in such police contexts larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 01:27:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:27:53 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:41 PM -0500 1/19/05, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! > >See HDAS. of course. Where it's tracked back to a 1919 hit (spelled "copesetic"), and assigned a wonderful negative etymology: [orig. unkn.; not, as sometimes claimed, from Heb., It., or Louisiana F] larry > >Bethany > >>My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I did) >>and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more learned >>folks have any ideas? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 01:29:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:29:37 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: <0C164676-6A64-11D9-ADCE-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: >On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" >>Subject: Re: copacetic? >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! >> >>See HDAS, of course. >> >>Bethany > >Yes, HDAS. The OED says only, "[origin unknown]." > Hmph. For all *they* know, it could come from Hebrew, Italian, or Louisiana French! Ignoramuses! larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 20 01:49:14 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:49:14 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: <20050119195516.GA19424@panix.com> Message-ID: Some sort of commercial code? They are so inappropriate to the corresponding items, it would seem that some sort of obfuscation is intended. With the exception of "licorice" & "letterbox" they don't even relate to ordinary household words, whereas cutlery is eminently a household domain. The list reminds me of these curious flotillas of spam with attachments that show up several times a week in my email. They, too, are labelled apparently randomly from word lists in groups all beginning with the same letter. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ >No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. > >A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >cutlery. > >Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >piece. > >Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? > >Thanks. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > >----- begin included message ----- > >Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each >pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >"Lotus" price list: > >SPOONS Extra >plate, per dozen > >Leper Mustard $4.75 >Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 > >FORKS etc. > >Levigated Pickle, Long >Levitical Fruit >Lewdly Child's >Lewdness Fish > >KNIVES > >Lexicology Fish >Lexigraphy Pie > >SHELLS > >Libellous Sugar > >SIFTERS > >Magically Sugar > >CHILD'S SETS > >Libertine No. 192 > >LADLES > >Libidinous Cream >Licentious Medium >Licorice Soup > >Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: > >SPOONS > >Daunted Egg >Dauphin Ice Cream >Dayspring Orange >Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >Deaconry Bouillon > >FORKS > >Deafness Dessert >Deathbed Oyster >Deathless Fruit >Debauch Child's >Limitedly Cake >Debility Fish > >and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up >the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least >half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. > >----- end included message ----- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 20 02:07:58 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:07:58 -0500 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 at 8:29 PM -0500 wrote: > >Hmph. For all *they* know, it could come from Hebrew, Italian, or >Louisiana French! >Ignoramuses! > >larry The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology: "...1919 _copasetic_, in I.A. Bacheller's _A Man for the Ages_, American English, said to have originated among southern blacks in the 1800's, of uncertain origin. The suggestion that copacetic came from a Hebrew phase such as _(ha)kol b'seder_all in order, or (unrecorded) _kol b'sedek_ all with justice, is not accepted among scholars in American English, such as Frederic G. Cassidy." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 02:37:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:37:22 -0500 Subject: 1847 Rogers Road... Message-ID: was the address of Ozzie Nelson and Harriet Hilliard, probably best-known nowadays as the parents of the late, pseudo-great Ricky Nelson. -Wilson Gray From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 02:39:48 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:39:48 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: <200501191831.j0JIVXI1030115@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: > Fred's warning is well-taken (and I thank him for the > correction), but I'm not sure what the answer is, short of checking > every online citation against a hard copy. I went back and looked again > at the Westlaw document, and there is simply no setoff of the 1896 > editorial material from the 1799 document. We clearly don't want to > give up our use of online resources, even though they occasionally have > errors. As the person who was the pioneer of the use of full-text online databases for historical-lexicographical research (beginning in 1978!), I certainly don't want to discourage such online antedating. I have greatly enjoyed seeing new researchers such as Bill Mullins, Ben Zimmer, and others post their findings on this list. Ultimately there is a backup to our errors stemming from the bibliographic weaknesses of online tools, namely the fact that the OED verifies quotations from original print sources. In the meantime, while waiting for the verification to happen, we need to try to be alert at least to the more obvious bibliographic problems of the online resources, such as the Federal Cases problem on Lexis and Westlaw and the need to look at the date on the page image for Newspaperarchive.com, which often misdates newspapers in the search results. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 02:58:36 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:58:36 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Interstate" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: interstate (OED 1845) 1844 Gardner, Daniel. A treatise on international law, and a short explanation of the jurisdiction and duty of the government of the republic of the United States. 310 (Making of Modern Law) Congress has exclusive power over inter-state communication. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 03:03:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:03:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Folk-Law" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: folk-law (OED 1884) 1875 J. W. Probyn _Local Government and Taxation_ 397 (Making of Modern Law) Folk-law was immutably localised. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jan 20 03:30:47 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:30:47 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it is possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > /T/, I think. From N'archive: ---------- _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: <> ---------- IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". IMHO the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some sort of a shibboleth. -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 04:52:40 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:52:40 -0600 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating Message-ID: Is the below a hard and fast rule? I've submitted some science fiction cites from scanned fanzines that I would bet that no one at the OED _can_ look up on original print sources. ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Fred Shapiro Sent: Wed 1/19/2005 8:39 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Pitfalls of Online Antedating On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: Ultimately there is a backup to our errors stemming from the bibliographic weaknesses of online tools, namely the fact that the OED verifies quotations from original print sources. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 04:54:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:54:42 EST Subject: Queer as folk (1872); Fire the gay linguists? (Richard Cohen, 1-17-05) Message-ID: QUEER AS FOLK ... I've been looking at THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS by Elizabeth Knowles. The sixth edition came out in September 2004. ... On page 632, "There is nowt so queer as folk" is given as "early 20th century." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Gettysburg Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2mj6fsBztgh/gqP9vk7XH4os8fAZDtJHFEIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, July 14, 1936 _Gettysburg,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+queer+as+folk+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+queer+as+folk+AND) ...may be in parts there's nothing AS QUEER AS FOLK. Nancy led him along a.....in his mind the old, Old truth that QUEER though nature.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _WATER FRAUDS.; Further Report from the Subcommittee of the Brooklyn Fifty. The Hempstead Storage Reservoir--Further Particulars Respecting the Matter--A Question of Veracity._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=79023977&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106195847&cli entId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 30, 1872. p. 3 (1 page) ... There is nothing so queer as folks, and we simple-living country people can hardly comprehend such downright nonsense. .. _THE GREWELTHORPE FEUD._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=98656343&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106196274& clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 15, 1881. p. 3 (1 page) .. "Weel! there's nou't sae wueer as folks!" ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------- FIRE THE GAY LINGUISTS? ... That's after we kill all the lawyers. ... >From a Richard Cohen story about the "gay" President Lincoln, in yesterdays newspapers. ... ... _New York Daily News - News & Views Columnists - Richard Cohen ..._ (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html) ... evolution is today. Facts do not matter when faith is at stake. Fire the gay linguists. Originally published on January 17, 2005. ... www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html - 40k - Jan 18, 2005 - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yFxbMDbfpP8J:www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html+"fire+the+gay+linguists"&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 20 04:56:28 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:56:28 -0800 Subject: unfortunate editorial choices Message-ID: from the 1/19/05 Palo Alto Daily News, p. 1 headline Prominent local hit by train, dies the sad story of "Robert Pringle, a 54-year-old father of three and member of one of the Peninsula's most recognized families", who died after being struck by a Caltrain in Menlo Park. the p. 1 story says: "The coroner has not ruled on the cause of death." the jump from p. 1 to the continuation on p. 58 is CALTRAIN. alas, the pickup on p. 58 is SUICIDE. a precipitous judgment, an unfortunate editorial choice, though likely to be accurate. well, we have a suicide a month, roughly, on the train line that runs south from san francisco, north from san jose, just two blocks from my house. level grade crossings, so you can just walk out onto the line and face your death as you want to. distraught teenagers, the down and out, the lonely elderly slipping uncontrollably into alzheimer's, people of all ages and stations who are depressed, often without their friends and families having any sense of the depth of their despair. some of them lie down on the tracks or curl into a ball, so as not to be so visible. some of them face the oncoming train right on, standing up. it's hell on the engineers who drive the trains. arnold From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 04:55:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:55:21 -0600 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: Yeah, but they are trying to get past spam filters. At least there is some logic behind them. My most recent example: "ammonia upshot gerard invincible plunder inhibition allied thereupon latus pain baroness afro defiant explosion apse encyclopedic gloriana falsehood deify knox tempestuous format rhythmic cushion spectrophotometer couch indecipherable rufus egg handclasp advert grosbeak regis sec midsection yin caret nursery against memento " ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen Sent: Wed 1/19/2005 7:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery The list reminds me of these curious flotillas of spam with attachments that show up several times a week in my email. They, too, are labelled apparently randomly from word lists in groups all beginning with the same letter. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Jan 20 05:04:41 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:04:41 -0600 Subject: crotch rocket Message-ID: I know I've heard it since the mid 80s - typically light weight, high powered Japanese motorcycles. I think the type model was the Kawasaki 1000cc three cylinder two stroke, maybe called the Z-3 from the mid 70s. The Kawasaki ZX-10, in the late 80s, with about 425 lbs dry weight, >100 hp, out-of-the-box top speed of 175 mph, was typical. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" This reminds me of something that I heard from one of my students recently. When I asked her about her weekend, she went on and on about riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably surprised that she would speak so openly and gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this except for me. Who would have known?!! Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 05:25:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:25:57 EST Subject: Justice delayed is justice denied (1882); Pay peanuts and get monkeys (1968) Message-ID: JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED ... Maybe Fred can look this up? On page 670, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has "late-20th century"? ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _GLADSTONE'S CAREER; Fifty Years of Public Life as a Statesman and Political Leader. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102561757&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106198072&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1898. p. 7 (1 page) ... "But, above all, if we be just men, we shall go forward in the name of truth and right, bearing this in mind, that when the case is proved and the hour is come, justice delayed is justice denied." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _New Era _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2iyydr2TaKO5FGsi+Iubyj/YLWPMWea2nkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, June 04, 1890 _Humeston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:humeston+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) ...JUSTICE DELAYED always seems like JUSTICE DENIED. business ought to be on.....tons of -hay AND straw soid: clover AND grass seeds produced AND sold; silos.. ... _Democratic Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2txpGaSPLSh92M4cXMYzOcZZIVxqICXOJw==) Friday, May 08, 1896 _Coshocton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:coshocton+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) ...Co. __ ____________ JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Eczema is a frightful.....about II. Ricard, tho minister of JUSTICE. Some time ago ho bought two.. ... _North Adams Transcript _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2rDi9gc698uaPNSygvV5UZXhortEDFjRn0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, June 09, 1898 _North Adams,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_adams+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Massachusetts_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+justice+del ayed+and+justice+denied+AND) ...the hoar is como JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Yes, tho disease of an.....AND Boiton, aUt> tor.ew York, Albany, AND the W eat. Timetables AND lurlher.. ... _Cambridge Jeffersonian _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2vwO68F74opK0VwgH0GtsDKEa1p7zZRV1UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November 09, 1882 _Cambridge,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:cambridge+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delayed+and+justice+d enied+AND) ...cannot brook delay JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED He htiili rirfies.....magic. It in per- fectly Biifo in nil AND pleaaant to tho tnateL AND ia the.. ...g ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- PAY PEANUTS, GET MONKEYS ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this on page 623, without a source. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Post Crescent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vJ991pK8TtNtsqQzTcvSySGmEXLbiHku0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January 05, 1969 _Appleton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Every square.....belts, pinafores, long vests, checks AND stripes AND Marks AND Spencer avoid.. ... _Daily Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nBPamMwH9mnbkxsM8UVRftSSzADCEye80IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January 05, 1969 _Salisbury,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...five applicants. Their policy: you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS. Worcester.....This time, full sar AND Caspar. PEANUTS for asthmatic chil dren? it UK.. ... _Frederick Post _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2ixoM9zSKR1kF5h3RrkOyOQJerZEPB3jikIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, January 16, 1995 _Frederick,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...get good employees. He also says, PAY PEANUTS AND you get MONKEYS. Keith. Ada.....sit for her. But your sister should PAY you an hour AND she should clean her.. ... _Ironwood Daily Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2k5Qn7hXhBlxpG8+Qg8ArTFR8EGbLuKp0kIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, December 30, 1968 _Ironwood,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Licenses to.....value fn other words Flexnit will PAY you up to more than your purchase.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 05:50:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:50:04 EST Subject: To err is human, screwup requires computer (1969); Business like a car (1948) Message-ID: "TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO REALLY FOUL THINGS UP REQUIRES A COMPUTER." ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (pg. 670) has this from the 1978 Farmer's Almanac. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Newark Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2j9XsOl8n7XVFkphzCh5q5EXxiRLfvW9i0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, November 18, 1969 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) ...they just get taller TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO really foul things up requires a.....COMPUTER. You won't need a COMPUTER TO tell you where TO get real.. ... _Newark Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2rewa1Rtu3mdWbrltY6gaY9MeCdzzNldC0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, October 03, 1969 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) ...ii makes snap Great Northern Goat. TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO really foul it takes a.....dropped 9 rubber bAND inTO the office COMPUTER. Now.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "BUSINESS IS LIKE A CAR. IT WILL NOT RUN BY ITSELF, EXCEPT DOWNHILL." ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this on page 669 as an "American saying," but doesn't given a proper date. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _In the WAKE of the NEWS; In the WAKE of the NEWS _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=499875322&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT =309&VName=HNP&TS=1106199645&clientId=65882) ARCH WARD. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 22, 1948. p. B1 (2 pages) ... First page: _Particularly These Days_ Many a business is like an automobile. It will not run by itself, except down hill. --Hugh Gesshugh. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lowell Sun _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2u2qRZj2h8Cf23XB+HdNRpd9QQ5DvbVNuUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 14, 1963 _Lowell,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lowell+business+is+like+an+automobile) _Massachussetts_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachussetts+business+is+like+an+automobile) ...Nov. 22 to 21) BUSINESS IS LIKE AN AUTOMOBILE; it won't run itself.....196 World rights reserved. WHO'D MOD LIKE TO BE IF YOU COULD BE ANYONE VDU.. .. _Van Wert Times Bulletin _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2uCR2UafPvZDnE20gOQRBlutCpK032G9OkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, February 24, 1971 _Van Wert,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:van_wert+business+is+like+a+car+and+downhill) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+business+is+like+a+car+and+ downhill) ...By: Neil GAreISs BUSINESS IS LIKE A cAr. Only wAy it'll run by itself IS.....event IS SArAh Giessler, I At the BUSINESS s e s s i o n I A motion wAs.. ... _ Daily Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2tmXyS5dAHQuOlq8SuiHLGT2VDJo3xSXyEIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, February 24, 1971 _Salisbury,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+business+is+like+a+car) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+business+is+like+a+car) ...OF WISDOM By JACK PURNELL BUSINESS IS LIKE A cAr. Only wAy it'll run by itself.....ig out A pArtISAn view of event: Some, LIKE the Voice of Ameri :A, the BritISh.. ... _Walla Walla Union Bulletin _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2vc6+OxrT1VRxm9HEmsGebbjgAOtQflF0EIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 25, 1971 _Walla Walla,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:walla_walla+business+is+like+a+car) _Washington_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:washington+business+is+like+a+car) ...EASY CHAIR By Vern Brown BUSINESS IS LIKE A cAr. Only wAy it'll run by itself.....Oregon tribe highly successful in BUSINESS And industry, Are fighting A.. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Jan 20 05:55:29 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:55:29 -0500 Subject: Justice delayed is justice denied (1882); Pay peanuts and get monkeys (1968) Message-ID: Perhaps from Milton. In Making of America(U of Mich.) there is an 1866 book called "Treasures from the prose writings of John Milton, 1608-1674. p. 393 "Then was justice delayed, and soon after denied." SC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:25 AM Subject: Justice delayed is justice denied (1882); Pay peanuts and get monkeys (1968) > JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED > ... > Maybe Fred can look this up? On page 670, the Oxford Dictionary of > Quotations has "late-20th century"? > > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _GLADSTONE'S CAREER; Fifty Years of Public Life as a Statesman and Political > Leader. _ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102561757&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=1 0&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106198072&clientId=65882) > > New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1898. p. 7 (1 > page) > ... > "But, above all, if we be just men, we shall go forward in the name of truth > and right, bearing this in mind, that when the case is proved and the hour > is come, justice delayed is justice denied." > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _New Era _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2iyydr2 TaKO5FGsi+Iubyj/YLWPMWea2nkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, June 04, > 1890 _Humeston,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:humeston+justice+de layed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Iowa_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+justice+delay ed+and+justice+denied+AND) > > ...JUSTICE DELAYED always seems like JUSTICE DENIED. business ought to be > on.....tons of -hay AND straw soid: clover AND grass seeds produced AND sold; > silos.. > > ... > _Democratic Standard _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2txpGaS PLSh92M4cXMYzOcZZIVxqICXOJw==) Friday, May 08, 1896 > _Coshocton,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:coshocton+justice+d elayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delay ed+and+justice+denied+AND) > ...Co. __ ____________ JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Eczema is a > frightful.....about II. Ricard, tho minister of JUSTICE. Some time ago ho bought > two.. > > ... > _North Adams Transcript _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2rDi9gc 698uaPNSygvV5UZXhortEDFjRn0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > June 09, 1898 _North Adams,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_adams+justice +delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Massachusetts_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+just ice+del > ayed+and+justice+denied+AND) > ...the hoar is como JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Yes, tho disease of > an.....AND Boiton, aUt> tor.ew York, Albany, AND the W eat. Timetables AND > lurlher.. > > ... > _Cambridge Jeffersonian _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2vwO68F 74opK0VwgH0GtsDKEa1p7zZRV1UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > November 09, 1882 _Cambridge,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:cambridge+justice+d elayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delay ed+and+justice+d > enied+AND) > ...cannot brook delay JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED He htiili > rirfies.....magic. It in per- fectly Biifo in nil AND pleaaant to tho tnateL AND ia > the.. > ...g > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > -------------------------------------------------------- > PAY PEANUTS, GET MONKEYS > ... > The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this on page 623, without a source. > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Post Crescent _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vJ991p K8TtNtsqQzTcvSySGmEXLbiHku0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January > 05, 1969 _Appleton,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+pay+peanut s+and+monkeys) _Wisconsin_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pay+pean uts+and+monkeys) > ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Every > square.....belts, pinafores, long vests, checks AND stripes AND Marks AND > Spencer avoid.. > > ... > _Daily Times _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nBPamM wH9mnbkxsM8UVRftSSzADCEye80IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January 05, 1969 > _Salisbury,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) > ...five applicants. Their policy: you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS. > Worcester.....This time, full sar AND Caspar. PEANUTS for asthmatic chil dren? it > UK.. > > ... > _Frederick Post _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2ixoM9z SKR1kF5h3RrkOyOQJerZEPB3jikIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, January 16, > 1995 _Frederick,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) > ...get good employees. He also says, PAY PEANUTS AND you get MONKEYS. Keith. > Ada.....sit for her. But your sister should PAY you an hour AND she should > clean her.. > > ... > _Ironwood Daily Globe _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2k5Qn7h XhBlxpG8+Qg8ArTFR8EGbLuKp0kIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, > December 30, 1968 _Ironwood,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+pay+peanut s+and+monkeys) _Michigan_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) > ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Licenses > to.....value fn other words Flexnit will PAY you up to more than your purchase.. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 06:31:13 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:31:13 EST Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE ... I don't know if this helps. Is it earlier or later than the feminist version? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Stevens Point Daily Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2lUtwWpTPNrLkRmdKtUtKqbDP+pMrf3HhkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a +bicycle+AND) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....been Able to roll out A pie crust WITHOUT the edges crAcking All the wAy.. ... Pg. 6, col. 7: The term graffiti no longer has a derogatory meaning at the University pf Wisconsin-Stevens Point. (...) ... "A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." "War is the periodic failure of politics." ... _Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nEL5Biq1wj8cgvo6I+NX31fF16a+mADDUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 22, 1973 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a+bicycle+AN D) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....cruciAl AreAs. Controls cAn'toperAte WITHOUT quick, efficient Access to dAtA.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" ... Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Forgiving: A Kind Of Freedom_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=118637351&SrchMode=1&sid=18&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110 6201822&clientId=65882) Glenn Collins. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, 1982. p. B10 (1 page) ... Gandhi's message is unequivocal: "If everyone took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind." ... _'Gandhi': Introduction To a Moral Teacher_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=126681702&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1106201249&clientId=65882) Colman McCarthy. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 2, 1983. p. K2 (1 page) ... Attenborough's film did what it could to convey the breadth of what Gandhi called _ahimsa_, organized and determined nonviolence. The line is uttered twice. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "CLOSE YOUR EYES AND THINK OF ENGLAND" ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations should have nailed this, but gives it as an anonymous proverb. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Broadway Gazette_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=291212242&SrchMode=1&sid=20&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106202073&clie ntId=65882) LEONARD LYONS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 18, 1943. p. 10 (1 page) ... ROMANCE DEPT>: Stanley Baldwin's son tells this story of the day his sister went out with a young man who wanted to marry her. She asked her mother for advice, in case the young man should want to kiss her..."Do what I did," said her mother, reminiscing of the beginning of her romance with the man who was to become Prime Minister. "Just close your eyes and think of England." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 06:37:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:37:58 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it > is > possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of > unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a > fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" > perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. > > "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of > "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > > /T/, I > think. But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever heard. A. And you know what was in it? B. Naw. What was in it? A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! -Wilson Gray > > From N'archive: > > ---------- > > _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: > > < becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I think > they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look > crowded.">> > > ---------- > > IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". > IMHO > the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some > sort > of a shibboleth. > > -- Doug Wilson > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 06:58:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:58:07 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: >"AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" >... >Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. >... >... >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_Forgiving: A Kind Of Freedom_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=118637351&SrchMode=1&sid=18&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110 >6201822&clientId=65882) >Glenn Collins. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, >1982. p. B10 (1 page) >... >Gandhi's message is unequivocal: "If everyone took an eye for an eye, the >whole world would be blind." Or was it Martin Luther King? ------ Washington Post, Sep 21, 1958, p. E6 [Review of _Stride Toward Freedom_ by Martin Luther King] Violence by Negroes, he says, is impractical: "The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind." ------ New York Times, Jul 7, 1959, p. 30 "Nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to people in the struggle for human dignity," Dr. King said. "The old eye-for-an-eye philosophy ends up leaving everybody blind." ------ King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in the 1958 review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 07:10:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:10:20 EST Subject: "Idea whose time has come" (1919); "Hammer sees nail" (1979) Message-ID: AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this in English from The Nation, 15 April 1943. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Article 34 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=522705392&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110620417 1&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jun 8, 1919. p. C6 (1 page) ... There is one thing stronger than armies, and that is an idea whose time has come.--Victor Hugo. ... _President's Address Features First Session of Federation_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=516560962&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType= PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106204171&clientId=65882) LOUISE DOOLY. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Nov 9, 1921. p. 7 (1 page) ... Victor Hugo says "There is one thing that is stronger than armies, and that is an idea whose time has come." ... _Queries and Answers; Queries and Answers _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=100003124&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam e=HNP&TS=1106203825&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1926. p. BR37 (2 pages) ... First page: _"Stronger Than Armies"_ D. E. A.--Can you tell me who wrote the following and where it may be found and its correct wording? I am not certain of my version. ... There is only one thing stronger than armies, and that is the power of an idea whose time has come. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS A HAMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE A NAIL" ... Maybe Ben can do better. Oxford says late 20th century. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _The Family Doctor Makes a Comeback_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=111202298&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1106203020&clientId=65882) By LOUISE SAUL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1979. p. NJ2 (1 page) : ... "There's an old saying that, when you were trained to use a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 07:35:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:35:05 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:58:07 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>"AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" >>... >>Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. [...] > >Or was it Martin Luther King? > >------ >Washington Post, Sep 21, 1958, p. E6 >[Review of _Stride Toward Freedom_ by Martin Luther King] >Violence by Negroes, he says, is impractical: "The old law of an eye for >an eye leaves everybody blind." >------ >New York Times, Jul 7, 1959, p. 30 >"Nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to people in the struggle >for human dignity," Dr. King said. "The old eye-for-an-eye philosophy ends >up leaving everybody blind." >------ > >King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in the 1958 >review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. According to this article (available on JSTOR), King cribbed the line from Harris Wofford, who was also studying Gandhian nonviolence: --------- "Composing Martin Luther King, Jr." by Keith D. Miller PMLA Vol. 105, No. 1 (Jan., 1990), pp. 70-82 [...] Several sentences of King's explication of nonviolence, including several quotations from Gandhi, stem from Harris Wofford's "Non-violence and the Law: The Law Needs Help." [...] Wofford: The old law of an eye-for-an-eye leaves everyone blind. ("Non-violence" 32) King: The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. (_Stride_ 213) [Citing: Wofford, Harris. "Non-violence and the Law: The Law Needs Help." Journal of Religious Thought 15 (Autumn-Winter 1957-58): 25-36. Rpt. in _Civil Disobedience: Theory and Practice_. Ed. Hugo Bedau. New York: Pegasus, 1969. 59-71.] --------- The article notes that Wofford had traveled to India to study nonviolence, so perhaps he'd heard the saying attributed to Gandhi there. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 07:48:10 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:48:10 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:31:13 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE >... >I don't know if this helps. Is it earlier or later than the feminist version? >... >... >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >... > _ Stevens Point Daily Journal _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2lUtwWpTPNrLkRmdKtUtKqbDP+pMrf3HhkIF+CsZYmrz) >Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a >+bicycle+AND) >...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the >periodic.....been Able to roll out A pie crust WITHOUT the edges crAcking All the wAy.. >... >Pg. 6, col. 7: >The term graffiti no longer has a derogatory meaning at the University pf >Wisconsin-Stevens Point. (...) >... >"A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." >"War is the periodic failure of politics." >... This has come up on the alt.usage.english newsgroup. Quoting what I wrote: ---------- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/03488e6db3003d87 There's also "A man without *God* is like a fish without a bicycle." This version is remembered by a contributor to the Phrase Finder forum as a graffito c. 1961: http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/9/messages/150.html A New York Times article from Aug 20, 1975 ("Quick Time of Modern Life Takes Hold In a Village Isolated in Alaskan Tundra") mentions the same version on a wall of graffiti in Bethel, Alaska. (And see below.) > A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle OR > A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle > Sighted by a.u.e. participant on a T-shirt in 1973; as graffiti in 1976. > Attributed by some references to Gloria Steinem. > But believed by many feminists to be by civil rights lawyer Florynce R. > Kennedy. Steinem wrote a March 1973 article in MS Magazine about her > witticisms, "The Verbal Karate of Florynce R. Kennedy, Esq." Gloria Steinem gave credit to Irina Dunn in a letter to Time Magazine, according to a posting on the AWAD forum in October 2000: http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Board=miscellany&Number=5821 This news just in from last week's Time magazine: "In your note on my new and happy marital partnership with David Bale, you credit me with the witticism 'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.' In fact, Irina Dunn, a distinguished Australian educator, journalist and politician, coined the phrase back in 1970 when she was a student at the University of Sydney. She paraphrased the philosopher who said, "Man needs God like fish needs a bicycle." Dunn deserves credit for creating such a popular and durable spoof of the old idea that women need men more than vice versa." -Gloria Steinem More corroboration here: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3255/herstory.htm Irina Dunn has confirmed this story, in an e-mail of January 28, 2002: Yes, indeed, I am the one Gloria referred to. I was paraphrasing from a phrase I read in a philosophical text I was reading for my Honours year in English Literature and Language in 1970. It was "A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle". My inspiration arose from being involved in the renascent women's movement at the time, and from being a bit of a smart-arse. I scribbled the phrase on the backs of two toilet doors, would you believe, one at Sydney University where I was a student, and the other at Soren's Wine Bar at Woolloomooloo, a seedy suburb in south Sydney. The doors, I have to add, were already favoured graffiti sites. ---------- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 08:24:19 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:24:19 EST Subject: "Rich man's ice in summer, poor man's ice in winter" (1899) Message-ID: Last one tonight. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (pg. 630) has "early 20th century" for "The rich man has his ice in the summer and the poor man gets his in the winter." ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _MERCURY'S LONG DROP; One Degree Below Zero Recorded Yesterday. THE COLD WAVE SEEMS BROKEN Decided Rise in Temperature During the Afternoon, and a Further Moderation Is Predicted for To-day--Charitable Associations Kept Busy Relieving Distress, and Demand Will Be Even Heavier--Many Find Work Shoveling Away Snow. Merry Sleighing Parties. Busy Dispensing Charity. Brought Work for Many. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=281225292&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106207915&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 3, 1899. p. 3 (1 page): ... Mr. Dooley's theory of equalization of all things, by the process of which the rich man gets his ice in summer while the poor man gets his in winter, is being thoroughly appreciated by the poor of Washington during the present cold spell. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jan 20 10:48:40 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 05:48:40 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3DC9@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 10:52:40PM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Is the below a hard and fast rule? I've submitted some science fiction cites from > scanned fanzines that I would bet that no one at the OED _can_ look up on original > print sources. A scanned fanzine is good enough, for our purposes. A transcribed fanzine would be a problem, but we'll accept a scan as we would a page image or a photocopy or anything similar. Jesse Sheidlower OED From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 12:22:22 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:22:22 -0500 Subject: press defense (1945) Message-ID: OED2 has 1961 for the basketball sense of "press" and 1976 for "full-court press"... * press defense [1943 _Chicago Tribune_ 2 Jan. 14/4 There was little use for their pressing defense in the last quarter as the Trout-coached quintet opened up offensively to make a rout out of what had previously been a tightly contested game.] [1943 _Hammond Times_ (Indiana) 15 Mar. 9/1 Rochester, for some strange reason, came to Hammond unprepared to operate against a pressing defense. Although Lebanon has been "picking 'em up" all over the court through an entire season, the favored Rochester five acted as though it had never seen such tactics.] 1945 _Daily Register_ (Harrisburg, Ill.) 26 Feb. 5/4 They have been told of the "press defense" used by Champaign and they were given an education in the "block and fade" of the Taylorville Tornadoes last year. 1945 _Dixon Evening Telegraph_ (Ill.) 19 Mar. 5/3 Minus one key player, Champaign fought gamely in the championship tilt Saturday night at Champaign, but even its famous press defense couldn't stop Decatur's drive-in shots and rebounding monopoly. * full-court press [1947 _Post-Standard_ (Syracuse, NY) 16 Jan. 14/7 Niland cut the margin to one with another foul conversion and Canisius went into a full-court pressing defense.] [1948 _Iowa City Press Citizen_ 1 Mar. 12/2 Further Iowa hope centers on its full-court defensive press, something Michigan has not faced all season.] 1949 _Waterloo Daily Courier_ (Iowa) 16 Jan. 40/1 The Tigers tried a full-court press at the start of the second half, but for the most part it backfired as the GoHawks began to click with their fast break. 1950 _New York Times_ 8 Jan. S3/7 The Brooks packed too much height for Kings Point and put on an effective full-court press which puzzled the sailors throughout the initial half. * over-the-court press 1947 _Lima News_ (Ohio) 6 Mar. 13/2 New Knoxville led only 25-21 starting the final period but Kuck, Roger Settlage and Lee Kattman, pint-sized guard in the skyscraper Rangers' lineup, tossed in buckets from in close as New Knoxville broke up St. Rose's over-the-court press. 1948 _Lima News_ (Ohio) 25 Jan. 26/2 Coach Dick Bechtol switched his Jays to an over the court press after losing three games in succession and the Delphos club has gone great guns since. * all-court press 1948 _Post Standard_ (Syracuse, NY) 26 Feb. 12/5 Harried by Yale's all-court press during the first half and a sudden switch to the zone in the second, Columbia finally came from behind with 14 minutes to play. 1948 _New York Times_ 15 Dec. 50/1 From the eleven-minute mark until the last minute, when the all-court press of the desperate Blackbirds permitted two unguarded opportunities from point-blank range by the Cowboys, they took hardly a shot. * back-court press 1949 _Washington Post_ 6 Mar. III1/8 North Carolina threw a strangling back court press on George Washington and with it the Wolfpack squeezed out the Southern Conference basketball championship, 55-39, here tonight. 1950 _Washington Post_ 16 Feb. 17/5 Then the Hoyas invoked a back-court press, and Little Bob Makatura stole the ball four times to score field goals. * full-floor press 1950 _Chicago Tribune_ 29 Dec. 3-1/8 The Illini then went into a full floor press defense and, with Govedarica out on five personal fouls, De Paul started to crumble. 1951 _Ames Daily Tribune_ (Iowa) 22 Jan. 6/1 Two of the scrappiest Roland players were guards Halvorson and Hagen, but on each team both forwards and guards began defensive tactics beside the scoring attempts, which were almost equivalent to a full floor press in the second and fourth quarters. * half-court press 1953 _Waukesha Daily Freeman_ (Wisc.) 19 Dec. 7/5 A close, half-court press helped the Indians knot the count at 18-18 with 3:13 seconds remaining in the half. 1954 _New York Times_ 3 Jan. S3/1 Navy started a half-court press but committed three fouls, losing Capt. Ed Hogan in the process. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 13:54:42 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:54:42 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) In-Reply-To: <31576.69.142.143.59.1106207290.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > >Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ > >"A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." The Yale Dictionary of Quotations has this back to 1958. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 14:01:09 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:01:09 -0500 Subject: "Idea whose time has come" (1919); "Hammer sees nail" (1979) In-Reply-To: <8d.1ec3b311.2f20b35c@aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM: > "WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS A HAMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE A NAIL" > ... > Maybe Ben can do better. Oxford says late 20th century. > > By LOUISE SAUL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Nov 25, > 1979. p. NJ2 (1 page) : > ... > "There's an old saying that, when you were trained to use a hammer, > everything begins to look like a nail." This is from Abraham Maslow, The Psychology of Science (1966). Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 14:09:52 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:09:52 -0500 Subject: To err is human, screwup requires computer (1969); Business like a car (1948) In-Reply-To: <156.48cdfdba.2f20a08c@aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM: > "TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO REALLY FOUL THINGS UP REQUIRES A COMPUTER." > ... > _Newark Advocate _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx? img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2rewa1Rtu3mdWbrltY6gaY9MeCdzzNldC0IF+CsZYmrz) > Friday, October 03, > 1969 _Newark,_ > snap Great Northern Goat. TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO really foul it > takes > a.....dropped 9 rubber bAND inTO the office COMPUTER. Now.. Another great find. I had this in 1971. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 14:19:00 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:19:00 -0500 Subject: Quotations and Sayings In-Reply-To: <1106230192.41efbbb0c234e@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Much of the material posted last night by Barry, Sam, and Ben, related to quotations and sayings, was quite brilliant. For selfish reasons, I'd like to encourage this trend toward quotational postings on this list, unless the linguists feel that such a trend is too far out of scope for the list. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:27:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:27:39 -0800 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: John, I've been searching eBay for years for a copy of "The Junior Woodchucks' Handbook." My first choice for grad school was Duckburg University, but there was a physical. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess there's something about that 1313 combination. The Munsters, of course, lived at 1313 Mockingbird Lane. Were there any other 1313 addresses? It's not quite the same, but Donald Duck's license plate, in the comic books, was 313. This was back in the days when license plate numbers were shorter. Our license plate, when I was a boy, was 920. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery Mr. Chester Riley (William Bendix) and family resided at 1313 Blue View Terrace, an address worthy of Dickens. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 20 14:33:34 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:33:34 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 21:39, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Ultimately there is a backup to our errors stemming from the > bibliographic weaknesses of online tools, namely the fact that the OED > verifies quotations from original print sources. Of course, this list demonstrates another backup: colleagues sharing their work, and not just antedatings. We see error-proofing happen on the list as a matter of course. I think more than a few ideas ultimately used for papers and presentations (not to mention news articles, web sites, books, etc.) have been discussed here to the benefit of all. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:35:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:35:02 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: Doug, this is my first encounter with "copathetic." Whatever its significance, the occurrence of this form is so far unique. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it is possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > /T/, I think. >From N'archive: ---------- _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: > ---------- IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". IMHO the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some sort of a shibboleth. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:39:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:39:18 -0800 Subject: crotch rocket Message-ID: "Crotch rocket" is in HDAS from early-mid '70s. JL Dave Hause wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Hause Subject: Re: crotch rocket ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know I've heard it since the mid 80s - typically light weight, high powered Japanese motorcycles. I think the type model was the Kawasaki 1000cc three cylinder two stroke, maybe called the Z-3 from the mid 70s. The Kawasaki ZX-10, in the late 80s, with about 425 lbs dry weight, >100 hp, out-of-the-box top speed of 175 mph, was typical. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" This reminds me of something that I heard from one of my students recently. When I asked her about her weekend, she went on and on about riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably surprised that she would speak so openly and gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this except for me. Who would have known?!! Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:45:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:45:58 -0800 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." The "God" version is textually a bit older, but I saw the feminist version on a poster in 1975 or '76. Does it have a known author? Might both versions stem from something earlier? JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE ... I don't know if this helps. Is it earlier or later than the feminist version? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Stevens Point Daily Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2lUtwWpTPNrLkRmdKtUtKqbDP+pMrf3HhkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a +bicycle+AND) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....been Able to roll out A pie crust WITHOUT the edges crAcking All the wAy.. ... Pg. 6, col. 7: The term graffiti no longer has a derogatory meaning at the University pf Wisconsin-Stevens Point. (...) ... "A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." "War is the periodic failure of politics." ... _Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nEL5Biq1wj8cgvo6I+NX31fF16a+mADDUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 22, 1973 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a+bicycle+AN D) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....cruciAl AreAs. Controls cAn'toperAte WITHOUT quick, efficient Access to dAtA.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" ... Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Forgiving: A Kind Of Freedom_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=118637351&SrchMode=1&sid=18&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110 6201822&clientId=65882) Glenn Collins. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, 1982. p. B10 (1 page) ... Gandhi's message is unequivocal: "If everyone took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind." ... _'Gandhi': Introduction To a Moral Teacher_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=126681702&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1106201249&clientId=65882) Colman McCarthy. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 2, 1983. p. K2 (1 page) ... Attenborough's film did what it could to convey the breadth of what Gandhi called _ahimsa_, organized and determined nonviolence. The line is uttered twice. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "CLOSE YOUR EYES AND THINK OF ENGLAND" ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations should have nailed this, but gives it as an anonymous proverb. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Broadway Gazette_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=291212242&SrchMode=1&sid=20&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106202073&clie ntId=65882) LEONARD LYONS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 18, 1943. p. 10 (1 page) ... ROMANCE DEPT>: Stanley Baldwin's son tells this story of the day his sister went out with a young man who wanted to marry her. She asked her mother for advice, in case the young man should want to kiss her..."Do what I did," said her mother, reminiscing of the beginning of her romance with the man who was to become Prime Minister. "Just close your eyes and think of England." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:51:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:51:23 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's good to get these later examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it > is > possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of > unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a > fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" > perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. > > "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of > "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > > /T/, I > think. But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever heard. A. And you know what was in it? B. Naw. What was in it? A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! -Wilson Gray > > From N'archive: > > ---------- > > _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: > > <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I think > they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look > crowded.">> > > ---------- > > IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". > IMHO > the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some > sort > of a shibboleth. > > -- Doug Wilson > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From martha at FUNWORDS.COM Thu Jan 20 15:23:38 2005 From: martha at FUNWORDS.COM (Martha Barnette) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0500 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere denoting "awkward glances or sexually ambiguous dialogue between guys" (short for "Homoeroticism Yay!"), usually exclaimed while watching TV programs featuring romantic tension between male characters. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827282/site/newsweek/ From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 15:57:15 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:57:15 -0600 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: > King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in > the 1958 review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. King, from his days as a grad student onward, had a problem with proper attribution: http://chem-gharbison.unl.edu/mlk/plagiarism.html From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 16:26:12 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:26:12 EST Subject: the naked LUNCH of scientific etymologists Message-ID: Naked Hunch on Lunch: Scientific Etymology like Scientific Racism Could Only Have Been Dreamed Up at Oxford Lunch Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-hesh, the “fh" ="h" slender “s” = “sh”) A feast of meat (Dineen, p. 675) Lón, g. lóin, pl. id., lónta, lóinte, m., Food, meats, provisions, supplies, stores; diet, dinner. “The Gael of old, like the other ancient nations, had but one meal or diet daily – the lón.” (Dwelly, p. 598). Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-esh), a feast of meat, is found in an Irish aisling or “dream poem,” Aisling Meic Conglinne, edited by Kuno Meyer in 1892. (Dineen, p. xxiii) Luncheon Lo/in-fheis án (Pron. lowneshan) A noble, “royal” feast of meat and dainties. Án, adj : noble. Oxford's Naked Hunch on the Irish and Gaelic "Lunch" The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology gives the origin of “lunch” and “ luncheon” as first appearing “towards the end of the 16th century in the sense of a ‘thick piece, hunch, hunk; perhaps – Spanish lonja slice, the longer form being probably an extension on the analogy of punch and puncheon, trunch and truncheon. The sense “slight repast between morning meals’ appears XVIIth C., for luncheon, and first in form lunchin’(g); the present use of lunch (XIX) is a shortening of this whence lunch vb. (p. 540) (?) Barnhart, the American etymologists, also traces the word luncheon to a word meaning a “thick piece, or hunk,” claiming its source in a North English dialect in the 17th century. Unfortunately neither etymological dictionaries provide any citations for this source. Oxford goes with a Spanish word lonja, for a slice, while Barnhart connects lunch to Proto-Germanic “skankon” and Old English “scanca,” meaning a hollow bone used to draw booze out of a cask. So from lunch to hunk to hollow bone. A skankon scientific etymology. This "scientific" etymology of Lunch really has to be read in full to be believed. Luncheon, n. 1580 luncheon a thick piece, hunk; later, a light meal (lunching before 1652 and luncheon, 1706). The semantic development was probably influenced by North English lunch hunk of bread or cheese; the morphological development may have been by alteration of dialectical Nuncheon light meal, developed from Middle English nonechenche, nonschench (1342), a compound of none NOON + schench drink, from Old English scenc, from scencan pour out. Old English scencan is cognate with Old Frisian skenka pour out, Old saxon, skenkian, Middle Dutch scencen (Modern Dutch schenken), and Old High German skenken (modern German einschenken), from Proto-Germanic *skankjanan draw off (liquor), formed from *skankon shinbone, SHANK (in Old English scanca), “ a hollow bone...and hence a pipe, a pipe thrust into a cask to tap it.” (W.W. Skeat). (Barnhart, p. 615) Lunch, n. 1829, shortened form of luncheon. -V. eat lunch. 1823 in Issac Disraeli’s Curiousities of Literature (no pg citation, Ed. note); from the noun. though of preceding date. —lunchroom n. (1830, American English) –lunchtime n., (1859, in George Eliot’s Letters). Lunch Lo/in-fheis (pron. lownesh: “f” is silent; slender “s” =- “sh”,) Feast of meat, food, and dainties. Free loin-fheis (lunch). Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of Clifornia San Francisco 1.19.05 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 16:48:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:48:00 -0800 Subject: "situation" Message-ID: "Situation" is frequently used rather evasively or euphemistically to mean "a problematic situation; problem." The earliest example I have encountered is in the film, "Best Foot Forward" (1943), screenplay by Irving Brecher, Fred F. Finklehoffe, and John Cecil Holm: "Don't they have girls here [at a military academy]?" "No. They say it creates situations." The film is based on a play by Holm, so the usage may appear there as well. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 20 17:08:12 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:08:12 -0500 Subject: unfortunate editorial choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >from the 1/19/05 Palo Alto Daily News, p. 1 headline > Prominent > local hit by > train, dies > >the sad story of "Robert Pringle, a 54-year-old father of three and >member of one of the Peninsula's most recognized families", who died >after being struck by a Caltrain in Menlo Park. the p. 1 story says: >"The coroner has not ruled on the cause of death." > >the jump from p. 1 to the continuation on p. 58 is CALTRAIN. > >alas, the pickup on p. 58 is SUICIDE. a precipitous judgment, an >unfortunate editorial choice, though likely to be accurate. > >well, we have a suicide a month, roughly, on the train line that runs >south from san francisco, north from san jose, just two blocks from my >house. level grade crossings, so you can just walk out onto the line >and face your death as you want to. distraught teenagers, the down and >out, the lonely elderly slipping uncontrollably into alzheimer's, >people of all ages and stations who are depressed, often without their >friends and families having any sense of the depth of their despair. >some of them lie down on the tracks or curl into a ball, so as not to >be so visible. some of them face the oncoming train right on, standing >up. > >it's hell on the engineers who drive the trains. > >arnold ~~~~~~~~~~ An old family friend, an historian at Stanford who lived in Menlo Park, met his death in just this manner, perhaps at the same level crossing, in 1953 or 54. I never heard a breath of suspicion that it was suicide. He was totally deaf & the accident was attributed to that. A. Murie p.s. in another unfortunate editorial choice, I learned of this, in Berkeley, listening to the radio news, which declared that a man, identified as so & so, was "decapitated by a passing train" while taking his daily walk, &c. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 20 20:06:35 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:06:35 -0500 Subject: "Rich man's ice in summer, poor man's ice in winter" (1899) Message-ID: "Mr. Dooley" will be the character in Finley Peter Dunne's wonderful sketches. I have also seen this thought attributed to Bat Masterson, who, after his gunfighting days, became a sports-writer on a NYC newspaper. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Thursday, January 20, 2005 3:24 am Subject: "Rich man's ice in summer, poor man's ice in winter" (1899) > Last one tonight. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (pg. 630) > has "early > 20th century" for "The rich man has his ice in the summer and the > poor man > gets his in the winter." > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _MERCURY'S LONG DROP; One Degree Below Zero Recorded Yesterday. > THE COLD > WAVE SEEMS BROKEN Decided Rise in Temperature During the > Afternoon, and a > Further Moderation Is Predicted for To-day--Charitable > Associations Kept Busy > Relieving Distress, and Demand Will Be Even Heavier--Many Find > Work Shoveling Away > Snow. Merry Sleighing Parties. Busy Dispensing Charity. Brought > Work for > Many. _ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? index=0&did=281225292&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 09&VName=HNP&TS=1106207915&clientId=65882) > The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 3, 1899. > p. 3 (1 > page): > ... > Mr. Dooley's theory of equalization of all things, by the process > of which > the rich man gets his ice in summer while the poor man gets his in > winter, is > being thoroughly appreciated by the poor of Washington during the > present cold > spell. > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 20:43:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:43:36 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." -Wilson Gray On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's > good to get these later > examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) > > Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in > The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >> is >> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" >> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >> >> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >> /T/, I >> think. > > But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or > to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In > My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some > other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to > have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard > "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country > talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. > It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever > heard. > > A. And you know what was in it? > B. Naw. What was in it? > A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! > > -Wilson Gray > > >> >> From N'archive: >> >> ---------- >> >> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >> >> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >> think >> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >> crowded.">> >> >> ---------- >> >> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >> IMHO >> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >> sort >> of a shibboleth. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 20 20:50:02 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:50:02 -0800 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: i posted Martha Barnette's note on "HoYay!" to the newsgroup soc.motss, because of its obvious motss-relevance (i.e., relevance to lgbt people), and almost immediately there came this response: Begin forwarded message: > From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) > Newsgroups: soc.motss > Subject: Re: HoYay! > Date: 20 Jan 2005 12:41:50 -0600 > > In article , > Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> Subject: HoYay! >> >> Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere > > I found the origin of "HoYay". > > - from the _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ episode "Lie to Me" > (season 2, episode 7): > Xander: Are you probably noticing a theme here? > Willow: As in 'Vampires, yay?' > > - > (sometime since Feb 2004 rendered unaccessable without login *sob*): > "'Homoeroticism, Yay?' was a thread originated by Jennifer Godwin > (jengod) on the Mighty Big TV (now Television without Pity) Angel > message boards sometime during that show's first season (1999-2000)" > This page credits the BtVS exchange as the inspiration. > > - : > "Cut to spring 2001. ... summer reruns were looming. Whatever were > we fans to do? I, who was going by the username whofleck at the > time, posted something like, 'We should have a Camp HoYay for the > summer.' I can't find the exact post because MBTV gakked their > boards unannounced in the fall of 2001." > > - The first use of the phrase "Homoeroticism Yay" on Usenet was in > alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer.creative, alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, alt.tv.angel, > originated by Kate Bolin, pointing to > , on 15 February 2001, > "takes it name from the Mighty Big TV Angel thread started by > JenGod. ... We love big gay TV." > > - The first use of "HoYay" on Usenet (per Google Groups) was Mike > Zeares, in alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, 2001-06-28 05:24:35 PST. > > I posted a little more info (expanded quotations and definitions) in > > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:25:35 -0500 (EST) > From: > Message-Id: <200402070025.i170PZI29327 at panix3.panix.com> > X-Also-Posted-To: alt.tv.angel > Subject: Re: The HoYay Fight Scene (was Re: Did anyone else liked > the fight scene? ** POSSIBLE SPOILERS**) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 20:50:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:50:45 -0500 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0500, Martha Barnette wrote: >Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere denoting "awkward >glances or sexually ambiguous dialogue between guys" (short for >"Homoeroticism Yay!"), usually exclaimed while watching TV programs >featuring romantic tension between male characters. > >http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827282/site/newsweek/ Well, it's a bit inaccurate for Newsweek to say the term is from "the blogosphere", since it originated in the fan forums for the TV show "Angel" on the website Mighty Big TV (now called Television Without Pity). (Or perhaps "blogosphere" is now being extended beyond blogs to any online chatter?) Sadly, MBTV/TWoP regularly prunes the forum archives, so the original use of "HoYay!" may be lost in the mists of cyberspace. The earliest salvageable cites appear to be from Spring 2001. Tim McDaniel did some sleuthing: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.tv.angel/msg/e859caac95f5c5b3 More MBTV/TWoP terminology listed here: http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/faq.cgi?show=0&q=1766 Some of their other terms have become popular on the Net, e.g.: ---- Anvil/anvilicious: Used to indicate obvious or heavy-handed writing that has no regard for the viewer's intelligence, thus bludgeoning them over the head with parallels et al. in the manner of Wile E. Coyote and his Acme Brand anvils ---- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 21:17:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:17:09 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:57:15 -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in >> the 1958 review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. > >King, from his days as a grad student onward, had a problem with proper >attribution: > >http://chem-gharbison.unl.edu/mlk/plagiarism.html The article that I cited upthread ("Composing Martin Luther King, Jr." by Keith D. Miller, _PMLA_ Vol. 105, No. 1 (Jan. 1990), pp. 70-82), gives many examples of King's, uh, liberal attribution policy. The "eye for an eye" quote, as I mentioned, was borrowed from Harris Wofford (who may have heard it attributed to Gandhi). The quote appeared (with other passages lifted from Wofford's 1957 lecture "Non-violence and the Law") in King's _Stride toward Freedom_, published in September 1958. Miller writes in a footnote: ----- Although _Stride_ does not mention any coauthors, Wofford apparently worked as a ghostwriter on portions of the manuscript. He states that he cannot recall whether he or King "picked something up from my [earlier] work" and inserted it in _Stride_ (Interview). King's practice of borrowing discourse inclines one to believe that King himself borrowed material from Wofford's lecture. Wofford comments that he would be "complimented" if that was the case (Interview). ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 21:47:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:47:34 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: I have friend from Armuchee, Ga., who observes that it is univerally pronounced "ArMURchee" by the locals. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." -Wilson Gray On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's > good to get these later > examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) > > Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in > The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >> is >> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" >> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >> >> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >> /T/, I >> think. > > But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or > to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In > My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some > other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to > have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard > "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country > talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. > It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever > heard. > > A. And you know what was in it? > B. Naw. What was in it? > A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! > > -Wilson Gray > > >> >> From N'archive: >> >> ---------- >> >> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >> >> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >> think >> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >> crowded.">> >> >> ---------- >> >> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >> IMHO >> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >> sort >> of a shibboleth. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 22:40:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:40:34 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can tell that you're the responsible party, etc." Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of ownership, etc.) on it." In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 23:28:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:28:15 -0800 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: The stink/The stank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can tell that you're the responsible party, etc." Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of ownership, etc.) on it." In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 23:35:43 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:35:43 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have friend from Armuchee, Ga., who observes that it is univerally > pronounced "ArMURchee" by the locals. > > JL Damn! I have a phonological analysis of this phenomenon that fails, unless the locals also replace spelled -rC with pronounced -IC in at least some cases. My mother never says "murch." Rather, she says [m^IC]. Well, even if my analysis fails, it's never gotten beyond the thought-experiment stage, in any case. I haven't written a single word. -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've > always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, > or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds > like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its > obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. > > Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to > everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih > say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be > used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than > "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. > My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman > himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces > "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by > Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of > the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's >> good to get these later >> examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) >> >> Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in >> The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: copacetic? >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >>> is >>> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >>> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >>> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + >>> "sympathetic" >>> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >>> >>> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>> /T/, I >>> think. >> >> But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur >> or >> to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >> My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some >> other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to >> have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard >> "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country >> talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. >> It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever >> heard. >> >> A. And you know what was in it? >> B. Naw. What was in it? >> A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >>> >>> From N'archive: >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >>> >>> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >>> think >>> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >>> crowded.">> >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >>> IMHO >>> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >>> sort >>> of a shibboleth. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 23:46:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:46:11 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: My friend is now a high-school English teacher and she's always said "much." It may be that "Armuchee" (near Rome, Ga.) originally had a vowel like that in "book" and "look"; maybe that was somehow conducive to an intrusive "r." Dunno, as usual. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 20, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have friend from Armuchee, Ga., who observes that it is univerally > pronounced "ArMURchee" by the locals. > > JL Damn! I have a phonological analysis of this phenomenon that fails, unless the locals also replace spelled -rC with pronounced -IC in at least some cases. My mother never says "murch." Rather, she says [m^IC]. Well, even if my analysis fails, it's never gotten beyond the thought-experiment stage, in any case. I haven't written a single word. -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've > always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, > or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds > like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its > obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. > > Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to > everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih > say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be > used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than > "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. > My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman > himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces > "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by > Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of > the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's >> good to get these later >> examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) >> >> Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in >> The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: copacetic? >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >>> is >>> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >>> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >>> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + >>> "sympathetic" >>> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >>> >>> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>> /T/, I >>> think. >> >> But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur >> or >> to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >> My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some >> other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to >> have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard >> "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country >> talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. >> It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever >> heard. >> >> A. And you know what was in it? >> B. Naw. What was in it? >> A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >>> >>> From N'archive: >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >>> >>> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >>> think >>> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >>> crowded.">> >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >>> IMHO >>> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >>> sort >>> of a shibboleth. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 23:50:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:50:51 -0600 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: Also "pedeconferencing", the practice of having discussions while walking around, mostly in reference to "West Wing". I remember during its first or second season, MAD-TV did a pretty good parody of the practice (although it may not yet have been named). > > Some of their other terms have become popular on the Net, e.g.: > ---- > Anvil/anvilicious: Used to indicate obvious or heavy-handed > writing that has no regard for the viewer's intelligence, > thus bludgeoning them over the head with parallels et al. in > the manner of Wile E. Coyote and his Acme Brand anvils > ---- > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 21 00:12:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:12:56 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: <20050120143502.18637.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Doug, this is my first encounter with "copathetic." Whatever its >significance, the occurrence of this form is so far unique. It's the only example know of from 1919. But then there are not many examples of "copasetic" (any spelling) that early either. Google "copathetic" and you'll find more recent examples, some of which are clearly synonymous with "copacetic" ... presumably an error for it ... or has the form with "th" had a below-the-radar parallel existence all along? I think there's an example of "copasthetic" in HDAS. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 21 00:27:16 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:27:16 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>"Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>"copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>/T/, I >>think. > >But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or >to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? It doesn't occur very often, but I find it more likely than the opposite one, all else equal. And in this case I find it hard to believe that the two words are independent and unrelated. Of course one can also speculate that /s/ > /T/ occurred here under influence from "sympathetic", "apathetic", etc. All just speculation so far! -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 01:09:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:09:15 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it difficult or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. Here's a good quote from http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058?q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D10%26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af31e83cb3058 (2000) "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration of Independence?" Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody else notice this? JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jan 21 02:08:09 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:08:09 -0500 Subject: another sense for gov't work Message-ID: During WW2 my father worked nights as an engraver for Sperry Gyroscope (afterwards acquired by Remington Rand and renamed Sperry-Rand) and he used "gov't work" to mean "private jobs done for friends" such as nameplates; it was useful as a label because a supervisor would never query a worker who said he was doing "gov't work." ________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:08:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:08:42 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar about it at all. -Wilson On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." > > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of > ownership, etc.) on it." > > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. > > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, > both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is > used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In > other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, > "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer > reading of the data may yield other meanings. > > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:13:28 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:13:28 -0600 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 p.m.: [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody else notice this? ******** Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. Gerald Cohen From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:16:01 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:16:01 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>> /T/, I >>> think. >> >> But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur >> or >> to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >> My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? > > It doesn't occur very often, but I find it more likely than the > opposite > one, all else equal. And in this case I find it hard to believe that > the > two words are independent and unrelated. > > Of course one can also speculate that /s/ > /T/ occurred here under > influence from "sympathetic", "apathetic", etc. > > All just speculation so far! > > -- Doug Wilson > Sigh! Ain't it the stone truth? On the other hand, what would we do for mental recreation, if we already knew everything? -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 21 02:17:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:17:56 -0500 Subject: another sense for gov't work In-Reply-To: <009201c4ff5e$0f5f5090$92b99b3f@chaos> Message-ID: >During WW2 my father worked nights as an engraver for Sperry Gyroscope >(afterwards acquired by Remington Rand and renamed Sperry-Rand) and he used >"gov't work" to mean "private jobs done for friends" such as nameplates; it >was useful as a label because a supervisor would never query a worker who >said he was doing "gov't work." I heard something like this occasionally on the job in the 1960's, usually in the form "a government job": "he's working on a government job" meant "he's engaged in a personal project [on company time, probably using company resources]". Of course no such thing was said to the supervisor, who knew very well what a "government job" was. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:24:36 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:24:36 -0600 Subject: Quotations and Sayings--(Yes, continue) Message-ID: Original message from Fred Shapiro, Jan. 20, 2005, 8:19 a.m.: > Much of the material posted last night by Barry, Sam, and Ben,related to quotations and sayings, was quite brilliant. For selfish reasons, I'd like to encourage this trend toward quotational postings on this list, > unless the linguists feel that such a trend is too far out of scope for the list. > ************ FWIW, I support those postings, which are so beneficial to Fred in the preparation of his magnum opus and which are of general interest to many other members of our list. Expressions and sayings are a part of language, so they fall within the pale. Gerald Cohen (linguist) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Jan 21 02:36:39 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:36:39 -0600 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just 170 miles south of you, in Ar., we hear "ideers" > >Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), >and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. > >Gerald Cohen > > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:37:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:37:07 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050120190618.02f80690@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0500 1/20/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Doug, this is my first encounter with "copathetic." Whatever its >>significance, the occurrence of this form is so far unique. > >It's the only example know of from 1919. But then there are not many >examples of "copasetic" (any spelling) that early either. > >Google "copathetic" and you'll find more recent examples, some of which are >clearly synonymous with "copacetic" ... presumably an error for it ... or >has the form with "th" had a below-the-radar parallel existence all along? > >I think there's an example of "copasthetic" in HDAS. Yup, from 1930: "I had to sock him in the jaw, but he'll be copasthetic." There are also several examples of "copasetty" from the 1920s (or copesettee, or copsetty), and none of "copathetty", for what that's worth. One of the HDAS cites is a quote from a John O'Hara letter, opining that "'Copacetic' is a Harlem and gangster corruption of an Intalian word...In American it means all right" (1934). So I guess that's one of the trial balloons the negative etymology was intended to shoot down. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:40:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:40:29 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it difficult > or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." > They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. > > Here's a good quote from > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ > 656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? > q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D10% > 26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af31 > e83cb3058 (2000) > > "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of > Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration > of Independence?" > > Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat > ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. > > The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody > else notice this? > > JL I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way because, for him, that way of speaking is the right was to speak. -Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:52:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:52:57 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:40 PM -0500 1/20/05, Wilson Gray wrote: > >I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my >pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >because, for him, that way of speaking is the right was to speak. Indeed. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague today, an Australian whose Historical Linguistics students kept mishearing her pronunciation of _drawer_ ("The readings are in the course drawer") as _draw_ until she finally wrote it on the blackboard. Her pronunciation is indeed r-less, but clearly bisyllabic--unlike that of many of my fellow N'Yawkers, who do indeed have homonyms for the two words (e.g. "in the draw"). I guess those final schwas must be hard to hear (for those who don't have them in their own speech), but she was somewhat put out. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:52:54 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:52:54 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:13 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 > p.m.: > [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for > "idea." Anybody else notice this? > > ******** > > Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, > Missouri), > and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were > looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. > That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. > > Gerald Cohen > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. -Wilson Gray From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:08:53 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:08:53 -0500 Subject: Who's your daddy? Message-ID: Seen on a campus poster today: "Who's Your Daddy? The Meaning of Parenthood"--a lecture by ----, professor of philosophy, ---. The latest on the inspirational talk circuit, I guess. From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Fri Jan 21 03:06:42 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:06:42 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: Lah-berry. Pungkin. Sammich. Life is more interesting down here in the tube! >>> Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. -Wilson Gray --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:57:38 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:57:38 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:40 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Idea/ideal >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it difficult >>or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." >>They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. >> >>Here's a good quote from >>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ >>656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? >>q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D10% >>26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af31 >>e83cb3058 (2000) >> >>"John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of >>Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration >>of Independence?" >> >>Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat >>ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. >> >>The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody >>else notice this? >> >>JL > >I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my >pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. > >-Wilson >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is common in the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students do it all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since they very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I think) by her teacher. She never got over it. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:04:00 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:04:00 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <5FE64DC4-6B51-11D9-8D53-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: A subdialect? Ah thank not. At 09:08 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote from Hank >should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not getting your point. I >could say "it stanks," if that fitted in with what the people around me >said and I didn't want to draw attention to myself by speaking a >different subdialect. But the people around me use "stinks" and so do >I. So, in what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I once had a >chat with an Englishman who was unable to pronounce "Wanda" in >isolation so that it could be distinguished from "wander" spoken in >isolation. Or do you mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the >extent that, in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or >"it stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and "stank" fall >together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just ordinary English speech, >with nothing special or peculiar about it at all. > >-Wilson > >On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >>Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >> >>JL >> >>Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: The stink/The stank >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >>cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the >>stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years >>since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can >>tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >> >>Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >>Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put >>yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of >>ownership, etc.) on it." >> >>In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >> >>So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >>spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, >>both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is >>used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In >>other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," >>leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, >>"put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer >>reading of the data may yield other meanings. >> >>IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >>whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:15:12 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:15:12 -0800 Subject: HoYay! In-Reply-To: <44122.69.142.143.59.1106254245.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0500, Martha Barnette > > wrote: > >> Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere denoting >> "awkward >> glances or sexually ambiguous dialogue between guys" (short for >> "Homoeroticism Yay!"), usually exclaimed while watching TV programs >> featuring romantic tension between male characters. >> >> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827282/site/newsweek/ > > Well, it's a bit inaccurate for Newsweek to say the term is from "the > blogosphere", since it originated in the fan forums for the TV show > "Angel" on the website Mighty Big TV (now called Television Without > Pity). > (Or perhaps "blogosphere" is now being extended beyond blogs to any > online chatter?) ben and i cited tim mcdaniel at pretty much the same time. meanwhile, about "blogosphere"... for many years i've had trouble explaining to people the difference between mailing lists (like this one) and newsgroups (like sci.lang) and websites and IRC. now blogs are added to the (indistinguishable) mix: it's all web stuff. i suppose the confounding was inevitable. like ben says, online chatter. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:29:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:29:18 -0800 Subject: unfortunate editorial choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:08 AM, sagehen wrote: >> from the 1/19/05 Palo Alto Daily News, p. 1 headline >> Prominent >> local hit by >> train, dies... > ~~~~~~~~~~ > An old family friend, an historian at Stanford who lived in Menlo > Park, met > his death in just this manner, perhaps at the same level crossing, in > 1953 > or 54. I never heard a breath of suspicion that it was suicide. He > was > totally deaf & the accident was attributed to that. yes, we have these non-suicide deaths too, especially at grade crossings with significant pedestrian traffic. there are three of these within walking distance (indeed, routes i often do walk) of my house. in some cases, there's just no way to tell what happened. today's PADN is being more cautious about robert pringle's death, in any case. arnold From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:32:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:32:03 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Evidentiary" In-Reply-To: <2431.69.142.143.59.1106255829.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: Another Bentham coinage. evidentiary (OED 1810) 1802 Jeremy Bentham _Traites de legislation civile et penale : ublies en francois par Et. Dumont ... d'apres les manuscrits confies par l'auteur_ 118 (Making of Modern Law) Evidentiary offenses. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 04:58:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:58:13 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:06 PM, JP Villanueva wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: JP Villanueva > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Lah-berry. Pungkin. Sammich. Life is more interesting down here in > the tube! Sammich?! WTF! I much prefer to have a sangwich. I know that no less a light than Richard Pryor is a sammich man. Nevertheless, I gotta go with the dialect of my birthplace and have a sangwich. But, WRT the other lexical items, I gotta give you your props. You're the man. -Wilson Gray > > >>>> > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, > but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid > that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. > > -Wilson Gray > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 06:02:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:02:42 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$5slqjs@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:57 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 09:40 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Idea/ideal >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it >>> difficult >>> or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." >>> They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. >>> >>> Here's a good quote from >>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ >>> 656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? >>> q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D1 >>> 0% >>> 26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af >>> 31 >>> e83cb3058 (2000) >>> >>> "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of >>> Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration >>> of Independence?" >>> >>> Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat >>> ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. >>> >>> The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody >>> else notice this? >>> >>> JL >> >> I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >> upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >> suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and >> my >> pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >> mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >> occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >> when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >> while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >> because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >> because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. >> >> -Wilson > > > Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is > common in > the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students > do it > all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant > pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since > they > very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply > spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled > "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I > think) by > her teacher. She never got over it. > Now that you mention it, I can recall also saying "crawl" for "craw," etc. Are you familiar with "rules" such as the one that food that has fallen onto floor can be eaten, if it's picked up within n-number of seconds? In my family, we just picked up the food and ate it, ritually commenting that "a little grit is good for your crawl." And, according to Crystal et al., East Texas is in the South, WRT dialect. Your student has my sympathy. When I was in grade school, Harvey suggested that we follow Lee, surnamed Lanier, around the schoolyard, chanting, "Lanier is a Frenchy name." It took only a couple of minutes of this to reduce Lee to tears. And he wasn't a crybaby. If being teased by peers can make a person cry, I can imagine what it must have felt like to be put down by a teacher. -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 06:09:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:09:21 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$5slqk6@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:04 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > A subdialect? Ah thank not. Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into a defensive posture. -Wilson > > At 09:08 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote from Hank >> should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not getting your point. I >> could say "it stanks," if that fitted in with what the people around >> me >> said and I didn't want to draw attention to myself by speaking a >> different subdialect. But the people around me use "stinks" and so do >> I. So, in what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >> It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I once had >> a >> chat with an Englishman who was unable to pronounce "Wanda" in >> isolation so that it could be distinguished from "wander" spoken in >> isolation. Or do you mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the >> extent that, in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or >> "it stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >> But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and "stank" >> fall >> together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just ordinary English >> speech, >> with nothing special or peculiar about it at all. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >>> Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: The stink/The stank >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >>> cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the >>> stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years >>> since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody >>> can >>> tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >>> >>> Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >>> Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put >>> yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of >>> ownership, etc.) on it." >>> >>> In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >>> >>> So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >>> spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the >>> spelling, >>> both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is >>> used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In >>> other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the >>> skinny," >>> leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other >>> cases, >>> "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A >>> closer >>> reading of the data may yield other meanings. >>> >>> IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >>> whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 07:02:55 2005 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:02:55 EST Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least since high school. -doug -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 21 07:29:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:29:00 -0500 Subject: figurative "full-court press" Message-ID: In an email, Jonathan Lighter recalls hearing "full-court press" as a political metaphor around 1982-84. OED2 has this: ----- 1978 W. SAFIRE Political Dict. 248 'Full-court press' became White House lingo in the late sixties... In politics, the term has come to mean a strenuous effort to get legislation passed probably because of its resemblance to 'all-out pressure'. In basketball, however, the phrase is used only to describe a defense. ----- >From what I can tell the first significant public usage of the metaphor was on Feb. 28, 1973, when L. Patrick Gray faced the Senate Judiciary Committee in the confirmation hearing for the post of FBI director. Gray insisted that the FBI's Watergate investigation had been "a full-court press" -- a sports metaphor that would prove as inauspicious as George Tenet's notorious claim that the case for WMDs in Iraq was "a slam-dunk". Cites for the figurative usage follow -- as sticklers like Safire would point out, the term is usually (mis)applied to offensive rather than defensive maneuvers. 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 13 Jun. IV-12/6 Nothing so embarrassing as humor which doesn't come off, and John Godey's actor mistaken for a gangster doesn't in spite of a full court press. 1973 _Wall St. Journal_ 1 Mar. 16/4 Mr. Gray repeatedly insisted the investigation was thorough, and using what he said was FBI jargon, said that when he heard of the Watergate break-in "I pushed the FBI button and said, 'Go, give it a full-court press.'" 1973 _Washington Post_ 1 Mar. A1/2 Gray called the investigation a "full court press" and a "massive special" with no holds barred and no interference, despite implications of involvement high in the Nixon administration. 1973 _Wall St. Journal_ 8 Mar. 16/1 L. Patrick Gray III has been getting what the FBI calls a "full court press," or an all-out grilling, from the Senate Judiciary Committee in preparation for a Senate vote on whether to confirm him as the FBI's permanent director. In basketball, a full-court press can either break the opposing team's nerve or give it renewed determination. Mr. Gray is holding up reasonably well. ... The Senate is fully justified in giving a candidate for such a sensitive post its full-court press. 1973 _New York Times_ 10 May 16/3 A more thorough examination, called "full court press," apparently because it recalls hard-driving basketball tactics, has also achieved a kind of notoriety in the division [sc. Third Armored Division] and elsewhere. 1973 _Advocate_ (Newark, Ohio) 24 Jul. 15/3 In Illinois, for instance, Republican investigators were scurrying around Cook County, but we had a full-court press operating in Southern Illinois. 1973 _Daily Times News_ (Burlington, N.C.) 22 Nov. 15B/4 It's not the job of a doctor to make moral judgments about his patients. ... No matter who is on the table, you give it the full court press. 1974 _Washington Post_ 30 Jan. B1/1 The evidence developed in court showed the Army was practicing something it called "the Full Court Press" on its own men. This consists of ordering a whole company out into the yard, ordering them to strip naked as jay birds while the officers go down the line inspecting every "cavity" for the feared contraband. 1974 _New York Times_ 6 Feb. 29 (heading) Sports under full-court press as lawsuits keep increasing. 1974 _Progress_ (Clearfield, Pa.) 23 Dec. 4/5 [T]he hostess launched a full-court press to find us. 1975 _New York Times_ 4 Apr. 25/3 [H]e described "the full-court press" that the city plans for the Democratic National Committee officials who plan to visit New York next month as part of their quest for a host city for next year's Democratic National Convention. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 08:12:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:12:20 EST Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: GOD IN THE DETAILS ... I know that Fred has been looking over "the details." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Holland Evening Sentinel _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2pa1aF2SG5x4qrwzAyB2nWyuAqBQxf4vKUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 14, 1960 _Holland,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:holland+god+is+in+the+details+AND) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+god+is+in+the+details+AND) ...up THE whole of anythINg. THE idea of "GOD IN THE DETAILS" has far more than.....for one month payable IN advance. "GOD IS IN THE DETAILS." As an architect.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Who's in Those Details?; Why do we philologists concern ourselves with the origin of a specific phrase? Because we know where God and the Devil meet. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=115636754&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&V Inst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106294082&clientId=65882) BY WILLIAM SAFIRE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 30, 1989. p. SM8 (2 pages) ... ... _They Coined 'Modern' More. Than 30 Years Ago; 'Modern' (Cont.) _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=132970832&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD& VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106294530&clientId=65882) By BARBARA PLUMB. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 3, 1966. p. SM40 (2 pages) ... First page: Mies, an elegant perfectionist who delights in custom-tailored suits and _haute cuisine_, once said: "God is in the details." ... ... _A Sense of Common Purpose Needed to Halt Europe's Drift; Joseph Kraft _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=146199192&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VIns t=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106294323&clientId=65882) The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 10, 1969. p. A19 (1 page): ... "The devil is in the details," says a senior French civil servant who has spent most of the past decade in fruitless haggling over various projects for British membership in the Common Market. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL ... This is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2004), pg. 627. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... Newark Advocate Thursday, April 24, 1930 Newark, Ohio ...it's an aNOnymous story NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL. Once upon a j time, there.....by the The company expects to DRILL in the well on the Davis lease.. ... Key West Citizen Thursday, April 24, 1930 Key West, Florida ...in it. It's an aNOnymous NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL. Once upon a time there was a.....But 1 have NO doubt he will do so, AND when he does he will pretend it has.. ... Appleton Post Crescent Monday, August 04, 1930 Appleton, Wisconsin ...It's an aNOnymous story NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL. Once upon a time there a man.....PAY HAJ ARRW6P WH6N WORN OUT CREEDS AND afUER NO LON66R HdlP. NOW v.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... THE WHISPERER; SYNOPSIS. ROY VICKERS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 26, 1932. p. 12 (1 page): "This is Walter. Walter Who, says you. Never mind who--no names, no pack-drill." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 21 08:39:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:39:45 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:02:55 EST, Douglas Bigham wrote: >Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least since >high school. Note also that in hiphop/funk circles, "stank" has followed the ameliorative path of "funk(y)", from malodorous to melodious. The positive sense was popularized on the album _Stankonia_ (2000) by the Atlanta hiphop duo Outkast (who have a penchant for saying things like "Stank you very much"). ----- Message-ID: <52idpk$1rta at useneta1.news.prodigy.com> Date: 1996/09/28 Newsgroup: rec.music.funky Subject: Re: Essential funk from '95-'96 This record is soooo Funky that I call it "stank"... ----- Message-ID: <3c86f2fa&v02140b0db21fb570f641@[209.239.198.134]> Date: 1998/09/12 Newsgroup: rec.music.hip-hop Subject: On Deck Reviews (Sep 98) So funky it's stank nasty. ----- Message-ID: <3716ac55 at news.usenetserver.com> Date: 1999/04/15 Newsgroup: rec.music.hip-hop Subject: Everybody loves the sunshine..... Donald Byrd is funky...but James Brown is straight up STANK! ----- Message-ID: <19991109230633.24298.00003677 at ng-fb1.aol.com> Date: 1999/11/10 Newsgroup: rec.music.funky Subject: The reason you should buy Prince's new CD... good to see da man can crank out a hot jam and put sum stank on it!! ----- Message-ID: Date: 2000/03/29 Newsgroup: rec.music.funky Subject: Re: New Maceo If it ain't stank, it stinks. ----- New York Times October 29, 2000, Section 2; p. 32 OutKast, the Atlanta group that made Southern hip-hop competitive with anything from the East or West Coast, puts a funky Southern-accented "stank" at the core of its fourth album, "Stankonia" (LaFace/Arista 26072). ----- Atlanta Journal-Constitution February 26, 2002, p. 1E They christened the studio "Stankonia," which Benjamin created by combining a slang synonym for funky --- "stank"--- with "Plutonia," the title of a poster depicting a futuristic city that hangs in the rapper's bedroom. ----- --Ben Zimmer From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 21 09:54:22 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:54:22 +0000 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <200501210306.j0L36iE9016790@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, but I > know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that "library" > is going to follow "February" right down the tube. > > -Wilson Gray > Not to worry. Your missing 'r' finds it's unnecessary place in one UK arts commentator's pronunciation on BBC2 TV: she says 'drawring' for 'drawing'. From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 10:06:15 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:06:15 EST Subject: Sanas of Big Shot Message-ID: Big Shot Big Seo/d, Big Sead (pron. shod ) A Big Chief, Hero, or Warrior. Seod, al. sead (pron. sh’od): A jewel. Often used figuratively: a hero, a valiant man, a chief, a warrior. A wealthy person. (Dwelly p. 808) ERIE: “ I told him I knew all the Big Shots. Well, so I do, most of ‘em, to say hello, and sometimes they hello back. Who wouldn’t know ‘em that hangs around Broadway and the joints. (Eugene O'Neill, Hughie, pp. 283-284) Big Shot is often used in a deprecatory sense in the Irish American community. The NY-Irish Big Shot after the Civil War was John "Old Smoke" Morrissey, Five Points gang leader, world-heavyweight champion boxer, Tammany and anti-Tammany Congressman, Ward Heeler of Heelers, and Ard Ri/ (High King) of the Fiaradh (Turning) Game Brace (breith as) House,. Note: this is not a big seod etymology, just a humble little shot (seo/d, jewel) in the ancient linguistic light of Irish and Scots-Gaelic. That's me seo/d tonight. Pax Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of California San Francisco 1.21.05 From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 21 10:20:21 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:20:21 -0500 Subject: fun-tastic (1939) Message-ID: Grant Barrett has a new DTWW entry for the suffix "-tacular": http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/tacular/ Grant found cites for nominal forms back to 1958 ("spook-tacular"), but adjectival forms (e.g., "craptacular") only date to the mid-'90s. I'd guess that the "X-tacular" adjectives were modeled on "X-tastic", which became a productive formation for US advertisers in the '60s... a quick scan of Newspaperarchive shows "shoe-tastic" (1966), "carpet-tastic" (1966), "fang-tastic" (1968), "shag-tastic" (1969), "swim-tastic" (1970), etc. (During the NFL players' strike of 1987, David Letterman had a Top Ten list called "Top 10 Slogans of the Scab NFL"-- the number one slogan was, "It's scab-tastic!") But the granddaddy of them all is the obvious blend "fun-tastic": ----- 1939 _Los Angeles Times_ 27 Apr. 13/7 In-a-word description of the Ritz zanies: Fun-tastic. ----- 1942 _Nevada State Journal_ 27 Oct. 4/4 Fantastic and fun-tastic; manna for theater-goers who want "something different." ----- 1942 _Nevada State Journal_ 17 Nov. 4/4 Fun-tastic nonsense guaranteed to tickle your sense of humor. ----- All three examples come from Jimmie Fidler's syndicated column, "Fidler in Hollywood". --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 11:20:07 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 06:20:07 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is it any surprise that /l/ would behave like /r/ in English? There is not only the perceptual/articulatory fuzziness which introduces/deletes a final /l/, there is also a historical background. In the West of English, centered perhaps on Bristol, /l/-vocalization is common. The city name itself is pronounced "Bristow." This /l/ vocalization (or outright loss in some cases) is also very common in the American South (including the South Midlands). Where I grew up, the vocalizers (Kin Ah hewp yu) made fun of the deleters (Kin Ah hep yu); boy was it a wakekup call to us when we went a little farther North and found out that the vocalizing got lumped together with the deleting so that we were all classified as SKs. I digress into perception; my bad. So some teachers and others defenders of the tongue went around in Bristol telling people that the city had an /l/ in final position, whuppin chillun somethin awful till they said it. Don't take smart kids long to figger out that if they start puttin /l/s in after final vowels, they will risk their butts less. So, of course, they started saying "Bristol," but they also started saying "ideal," "sofal," "sodal," and lots of other treasures of the tongue. Now I don't want to claim that hypercorrection is the only source of "Bristol L" (as this phenomenon is known amongst us dialectologists). Once an indeterminate pronunciation is in the air as regards the treatment of these final vowel words, whether a child learns the lexical item "idea" as "idea" or "ideal" is up for grabs. Note, for example, how, without teacher supervision, the linking /r/ of "pizzar and beer" has caused some learners to reanalyze the underlying form of the first word as "pizzar," in spite of general phonotactic constraints is the local dialect. The hypercorrection story is similar to one of the accounts of the Cincinnati, Missouri pronunciations with final schwa. Since some of us old-timey SKs say "sodi" and "sofi" (for "soda" and "sofa"), we got whacked just like them little Pistols from Bristol, and started eschewing all final schwas; oncet you do that, hit's easy to get Cincinnat@ and Missour at . (I know there's other accounts of this, specially for the state name.) Course, it's obvious that little poopers who have made one rather than another analysis of the phonemic composition of a word during their growing up years will clearly constitute the class known as the ignorant in adulthood. We all know that. dInIs > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 p.m.: > [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for >"idea." Anybody else notice this? > >******** > >Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), >and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were >looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. >That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. > >Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 12:03:33 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:03:33 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > GOD IN THE DETAILS > ... > _Holland Evening Sentinel _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2pa1aF2SG5x4qrwzAyB2nWyuAqBQxf4vKUIF+CsZYmrz) > Wednesday, September 14, 1960 _Holland,_ > > ...up THE whole of anythINg. THE idea of "GOD IN THE DETAILS" has far more > than.....for one month payable IN advance. "GOD IS IN THE DETAILS." As an > architect.. I've done a lot of work on this one, and have it back to 1925. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 21 12:34:02 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:34:02 +0100 Subject: Resignable Message-ID: http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article505391.html Paul _________________________________________ Paul Frank English translation >From Chinese: social sciences and humanities >From German, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Dutch: sinology e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jan 21 13:40:26 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:40:26 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Sammich is alive and well in P'burgh! From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 13:52:01 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:52:01 -0800 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <00d301c4fd6a$805f5ab0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: --- David Bowie wrote: > FWIW, just to add more fuel, in my pronunciation > (where @ is short-a): > > can (n., container; v., to put in a container): > [k at n] > can (v., showing possibility or permission): [kEn] > cannot/can not (negative of v., possibility): > [kEnat] (w/ second > syllable stress) > can't: [k at nt] > > I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor > said that only speakers > of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two > verbs 'can' and 'can'. I > said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a > distinction, and said > professor responded that i didn't (by definition, i > suppose), and that i was > merely forcing the distinction i'd just > demonstrated. I (SE PA) also make a distinction between the two verbs but it's different from yours: can (v. to put in a container) [kaen] can (v. to show possibility or permission) [kEn] But oddly, can't [kaent] Ed __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 13:52:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:52:20 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: Sorry - I certainly didn't mean to imply anyone was younger than I am. The definition of to "swap" as "to trade or exchange" insufficently describes its historical usage. "Swapping X for Y" usually entails the idea that X is in my possession or under my control and Y is something new that isn't. "I swapped whole grains for refined ones" means to most of us just the opposite of what the writer clearly intended. As to the "novelty" of this newer usage - it caught my eye because even after hearing and reading billions and billions of words of English, I'd never encountered it before. This seems also to be true for the other posters to this thread. Arnold's analysis of the shift is fairly technical but may account for what happened. JL James Smith wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Smith Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardly young at 59, the use of "swap" to mean trade, exchange, or substitute seems totally natural to me. What is the so-called "established" meaning of swap? --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of > the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to > explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how > they originate) become "part of the language." In > simple terms, more young (I guess) people - > including young people who wind up as print > journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part > of the established meaning of "swap" and > "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). > > There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is > beginning to embrace this entire category of words. > JL > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains > for refined ones" + > > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of > Blending" (_Etymology > > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald > Leonard Cohen, 1988; > > self-published but very favorably > reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust > into a new > > environment which changes the meaning of those > words." (Then: two > > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems > to be a third one, > > albeit not from the standard language.). > >> > > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January > 17, 2005: > > > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of > "substitute" > >> commented upon some weeks ago: > >> > >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are > expected to place > >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising > daily, along with > >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating > a lot more > >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not > Carbs, Make You Fat > >> (AP) > >> January 12, 2005 > >> > >> > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > >> > >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're > eating whole grains > >> now, you should switch to refined ones. > >> > >> Thoughts? > > to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are > three usages: > (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD > (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW > [an extension of the "replace" pattern] > (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW > [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and > (2). note > that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD > before NEW, > iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new > information] > > now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" > example -- "swap NEW for > OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's > an extension of > the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics > similar to "substitute" > ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" > as well; i'd add > "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the > fact that "swap", > "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* > substitution, for which (in > central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: > in "I > swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball > cards", the marbles > replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which > participant is > expressed by the direct and which by the oblique > object could be > entirely determined by matters of focus and > topicality in the > discourse. > > so lighter's example could result from an extension > of a construction > to new head verbs semantically similar to existing > ones, a phenomenon > that is very widely attested. > > cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as > pretty implausible. in > clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible > to maintain that the > speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing > plans for expressing > the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up > with elements of > each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or > substitution, to > use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, > "Substitutions and > splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's > proposal is that "swap > NEW for OLD" results from blending > (1) substitute NEW for OLD > and > (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, > which involves, at the surface, switches in three > places, holding only > the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, > possible that > blending takes place at a more abstract level of > analysis, in which the > allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is > separated from the > choice of "for" as the oblique marker. > > extensions of constructions to new head items > semantically related to > existing heads *could* always be analyzed as > syntactic blends, with a > certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this > seems to me like the > wrong way to go, especially since people who produce > these extensions > so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in > general, the extensions > look like innovations in grammars, made > independently by some number of > speakers and then spread to other speakers by the > usual means. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 13:54:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:54:45 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: I never make my students cry. It's the other way round. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Idea/ideal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:57 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 09:40 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Idea/ideal >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it >>> difficult >>> or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." >>> They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. >>> >>> Here's a good quote from >>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ >>> 656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? >>> q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D1 >>> 0% >>> 26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af >>> 31 >>> e83cb3058 (2000) >>> >>> "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of >>> Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration >>> of Independence?" >>> >>> Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat >>> ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. >>> >>> The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody >>> else notice this? >>> >>> JL >> >> I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >> upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >> suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and >> my >> pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >> mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >> occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >> when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >> while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >> because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >> because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. >> >> -Wilson > > > Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is > common in > the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students > do it > all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant > pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since > they > very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply > spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled > "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I > think) by > her teacher. She never got over it. > Now that you mention it, I can recall also saying "crawl" for "craw," etc. Are you familiar with "rules" such as the one that food that has fallen onto floor can be eaten, if it's picked up within n-number of seconds? In my family, we just picked up the food and ate it, ritually commenting that "a little grit is good for your crawl." And, according to Crystal et al., East Texas is in the South, WRT dialect. Your student has my sympathy. When I was in grade school, Harvey suggested that we follow Lee, surnamed Lanier, around the schoolyard, chanting, "Lanier is a Frenchy name." It took only a couple of minutes of this to reduce Lee to tears. And he wasn't a crybaby. If being teased by peers can make a person cry, I can imagine what it must have felt like to be put down by a teacher. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 14:02:11 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:02:11 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <005b01c4ffbe$c50c18f0$13b89b3f@chaos> Message-ID: How come my informal pronunciation is being ignored - the obviously correct 'samwich'? Doesn't this nicely reflect the labiovelar nature of /w/, the latter of which students often find hard to believe? For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage 'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. (By the way, the next, nearly most informal stage, for good speakers like me is a loss of the nasal altogether, excepting nasalization of the vowel, of course but still with a /w/. ["Still with a /w/!" An unfortunate choice of words today, though I guess it would have been worse yesterday.] Of course, you can get here from 'sangwich' as well. Most informally, I can realize this item as a monosyllable, with loss of /w/ - /s [+nasal ae:] ch/.) A related issue, lots of beginning phonetics students 'hear' a velar /ng/ when a vowel is nasalized, regardless of the source of the nasalization dInIs Sammich is alive and well in P'burgh! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 14:10:15 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:10:15 -0500 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050121135220.25164.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is my favorite lurking presupposition for the new year. Course, we got a long time to go. "Arnold's analysis of the shift is fairly technical but may account for what happened." This is kind of a new twist to the economy principle, ain't it? dInIs >Sorry - I certainly didn't mean to imply anyone was younger than I am. > >The definition of to "swap" as "to trade or exchange" insufficently >describes its historical usage. "Swapping X for Y" usually entails >the idea that X is in my possession or under my control and Y is >something new that isn't. > >"I swapped whole grains for refined ones" means to most of us just >the opposite of what the writer clearly intended. > >As to the "novelty" of this newer usage - it caught my eye because >even after hearing and reading billions and billions of words of >English, I'd never encountered it before. This seems also to be true >for the other posters to this thread. > >Arnold's analysis of the shift is fairly technical but may account >for what happened. > >JL > >James Smith wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: James Smith >Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hardly young at 59, the use of "swap" to mean trade, >exchange, or substitute seems totally natural to me. >What is the so-called "established" meaning of swap? > > > >--- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of >> the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to >> explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how >> they originate) become "part of the language." In >> simple terms, more young (I guess) people - >> including young people who wind up as print >> journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part >> of the established meaning of "swap" and >> "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). >> >> There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is >> beginning to embrace this entire category of words. >> JL >> >> "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: >> >> > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains >> for refined ones" + >> > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." >> > >> > In my article "Contributions To The Study of >> Blending" (_Etymology >> > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald >> Leonard Cohen, 1988; >> > self-published but very favorably >> reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on >> > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): >> > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust >> into a new >> > environment which changes the meaning of those >> words." (Then: two >> > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems >> to be a third one, >> > albeit not from the standard language.). >> >> >> > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January >> 17, 2005: >> > >> >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of >> "substitute" >> >> commented upon some weeks ago: >> >> >> >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are >> expected to place >> >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising >> daily, along with >> >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating >> a lot more >> >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not >> Carbs, Make You Fat >> >> (AP) >> >> January 12, 2005 >> >> >> >> >> >http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html >> >> >> >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're >> eating whole grains >> >> now, you should switch to refined ones. >> >> >> >> Thoughts? >> >> to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are >> three usages: >> (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD > > (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW >> [an extension of the "replace" pattern] >> (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW >> [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and >> (2). note >> that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD >> before NEW, >> iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new >> information] >> >> now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" >> example -- "swap NEW for >> OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's >> an extension of >> the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics >> similar to "substitute" >> ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" >> as well; i'd add >> "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the >> fact that "swap", >> "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* >> substitution, for which (in >> central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: >> in "I >> swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball >> cards", the marbles >> replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which >> participant is >> expressed by the direct and which by the oblique >> object could be >> entirely determined by matters of focus and >> topicality in the >> discourse. >> >> so lighter's example could result from an extension >> of a construction >> to new head verbs semantically similar to existing >> ones, a phenomenon >> that is very widely attested. >> >> cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as >> pretty implausible. in >> clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible >> to maintain that the >> speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing >> plans for expressing >> the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up >> with elements of >> each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or >> substitution, to >> use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, >> "Substitutions and >> splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's >> proposal is that "swap >> NEW for OLD" results from blending >> (1) substitute NEW for OLD >> and >> (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, >> which involves, at the surface, switches in three >> places, holding only >> the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, >> possible that >> blending takes place at a more abstract level of >> analysis, in which the >> allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is >> separated from the >> choice of "for" as the oblique marker. >> >> extensions of constructions to new head items >> semantically related to >> existing heads *could* always be analyzed as >> syntactic blends, with a >> certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this >> seems to me like the >> wrong way to go, especially since people who produce >> these extensions >> so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in >> general, the extensions >> look like innovations in grammars, made >> independently by some number of >> speakers and then spread to other speakers by the >> usual means. >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively >|or slowly and cautiously. > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? >http://my.yahoo.com > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 21 14:39:39 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:39:39 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: > >For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 21 14:43:39 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:43:39 +0000 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <200501211439.j0LEdpFM022852@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: > But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 14:52:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:52:24 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is. -Wilson On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Douglas Bigham > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least > since > high school. > > -doug > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Department of Linguistics > University of Texas - Austin > http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 14:55:44 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:55:44 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Well, you got your assimilators and your non-assimilators. Why any self-respecting person would like to stick an alveolar in front of a labiovelar is beyond me. It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country to ruin. dInIs >American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >> >>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. > >But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. > >Regards, >David > >barnhart at highlands.com -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 21 15:18:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:18:17 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Dennis, I'm not ashamed to say I am NOT a Republican. So, don't lay all the ruin at my door. American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 9:55 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >Subject: Re: sammich >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >David, > >Well, you got your assimilators and your non-assimilators. Why any >self-respecting person would like to stick an alveolar in front of a >labiovelar is beyond me. It's you people who don't assimilate who are >driving this country to ruin. > >dInIs > > > > > >>American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >>2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >>> >>>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. >> >>But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. >> >>Regards, >>David >> >>barnhart at highlands.com > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 21 15:19:04 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:19:04 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: I say "hang ker ch at f" American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 9:43 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: sammich >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: > >> But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? > >Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:00:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:39 AM -0500 1/21/05, Barnhart wrote: >American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >> >>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. > >But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. > Besides which, if we go with dInIs, we have to give up the old riddle-- "Why do you never go hungry at the beach" [SPOILER SPACE] Because of all the san(d)-which-is there. [#Because of all the sam(w)iches there.] larry From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:13:49 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:13:49 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, AHA! You do assimilate to velars (at least sometimes). I take all (uh, most) of it back. dInIs >I say "hang ker ch at f" > >American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >2005 at 9:43 AM -0500 wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: neil >>Subject: Re: sammich >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: >> >>> But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? >> >>Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 16:15:38 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:15:38 -0600 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different pronounciation? (I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun "stink") I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music videos, around the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar Melonhead) "Little Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a pink house, but it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh muther pank." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote > from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not > getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted > in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to > draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. > But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in > what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? > It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I > once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to > pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be > distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you > mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, > in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it > stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. > But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and > "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just > ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar > about it at all. > > -Wilson > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably > > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. > > > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated > > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, > "You got the > > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about > sixty years > > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, > "everybody can > > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." > > > > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country > > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go > 'hayid. Put > > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put > your mark (of > > ownership, etc.) on it." > > > > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. > > > > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both > > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the > > spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, > > "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, > > disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the > word, the inside dope, the skinny," > > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other > > cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul > up," etc. > > A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. > > > > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following > > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:18:22 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:18:22 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Phony phonetics in riddle-puns (e.g., the Parade magazine's last page, that stuff you don't read folded into your Sunday paper) piss me off. I'm always getting the dang things wrong because they either stretch (or spelling-pronounce) some of their answers (like Larry's beach answer). dInIs >At 9:39 AM -0500 1/21/05, Barnhart wrote: >>American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >>2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >>> >>>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. >> >>But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. >> >Besides which, if we go with dInIs, we have to give up the old riddle-- > >"Why do you never go hungry at the beach" > >[SPOILER SPACE] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Because of all the san(d)-which-is there. > >[#Because of all the sam(w)iches there.] > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:28:53 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:28:53 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA705@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: I reckon all this is simply the common Southern - South Midlands modification of /I/ before nasals. Before labial and alveolar nasals /I/ goes to [E]; before the velar, it goes to [Ey]. There is important lexical influence; in my speech, for example, this [Ey] realization is obligatory in 'thing' and 'bring' but not so strong in 'ring' and hardly there at all in 'king.' (Word frequency; order of acquisition?) Tin-eared foreigners often her 'bring' and the variant preterite 'brang' as the same, but they ain't. 'Bring' is pronounced '[brEyng] (by the above rule) and 'brang' is pronounced 'braeyng,' the the following velar nasal causing the rising diphthongization of /ae/, but the onsets are quite distinct. dInIs >Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different >pronounciation? >(I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun >"stink") > >I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music >videos, around >the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar >Melonhead) "Little >Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a pink >house, but >it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh >muther pank." > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote >> from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not >> getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted >> in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to >> draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. >> But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in >> what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >> It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I >> once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to >> pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be >> distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you >> mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, >> in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it >> stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >> But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and >> "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just >> ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar >> about it at all. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > - >> > -------- >> > >> > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >> > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >> > >> > JL >> > >> > Wilson Gray wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Wilson Gray >> > Subject: The stink/The stank >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > - >> > -------- >> > >> > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >> > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, >> "You got the >> > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about > > sixty years >> > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, >> "everybody can >> > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >> > >> > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >> > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go >> 'hayid. Put >> > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put >> your mark (of >> > ownership, etc.) on it." >> > >> > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >> > >> > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >> > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the >> > spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, >> > "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, >> > disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the >> word, the inside dope, the skinny," >> > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other >> > cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul >> up," etc. >> > A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. >> > >> > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >> > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >> > >> > -Wilson Gray >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:11:31 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:11:31 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When we discussed the Bristol L in my Soclx class a couple years ago, a student surnamed Bristow lit up with the shock of recognition. She said the family knew it came from Bristol but always wondered why they didn't spell their name with an 'l'. In my studies of early English contacts with American Indians, I found great variation between the two spellings (Bristol was the port of origin for many of the trading and slaving ships). At 06:20 AM 1/21/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Is it any surprise that /l/ would behave like /r/ in English? There >is not only the perceptual/articulatory fuzziness which >introduces/deletes a final /l/, there is also a historical >background. In the West of English, centered perhaps on Bristol, >/l/-vocalization is common. The city name itself is pronounced >"Bristow." This /l/ vocalization (or outright loss in some cases) is >also very common in the American South (including the South >Midlands). Where I grew up, the vocalizers (Kin Ah hewp yu) made fun >of the deleters (Kin Ah hep yu); boy was it a wakekup call to us when >we went a little farther North and found out that the vocalizing got >lumped together with the deleting so that we were all classified as >SKs. > >I digress into perception; my bad. > >So some teachers and others defenders of the tongue went around in >Bristol telling people that the city had an /l/ in final position, >whuppin chillun somethin awful till they said it. Don't take smart >kids long to figger out that if they start puttin /l/s in after final >vowels, they will risk their butts less. So, of course, they started >saying "Bristol," but they also started saying "ideal," "sofal," >"sodal," and lots of other treasures of the tongue. > >Now I don't want to claim that hypercorrection is the only source of >"Bristol L" (as this phenomenon is known amongst us dialectologists). >Once an indeterminate pronunciation is in the air as regards the >treatment of these final vowel words, whether a child learns the >lexical item "idea" as "idea" or "ideal" is up for grabs. > >Note, for example, how, without teacher supervision, the linking /r/ >of "pizzar and beer" has caused some learners to reanalyze the >underlying form of the first word as "pizzar," in spite of general >phonotactic constraints is the local dialect. > >The hypercorrection story is similar to one of the accounts of the >Cincinnati, Missouri pronunciations with final schwa. Since some of >us old-timey SKs say "sodi" and "sofi" (for "soda" and "sofa"), we >got whacked just like them little Pistols from Bristol, and started >eschewing all final schwas; oncet you do that, hit's easy to get >Cincinnat@ and Missour at . (I know there's other accounts of this, >specially for the state name.) > >Course, it's obvious that little poopers who have made one rather >than another analysis of the phonemic composition of a word during >their growing up years will clearly constitute the class known as the >ignorant in adulthood. We all know that. > >dInIs > > > > >> Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 p.m.: >> [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for >>"idea." Anybody else notice this? >> >>******** >> >>Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), >>and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were >>looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. >>That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. >> >>Gerald Cohen > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:51:08 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:51:08 -0500 Subject: New York Post Research Need Message-ID: I wonder whether Barry Popik or George Thompson or some other New York City ADS-Ler might be willing to look something up for me in the microfilm of the New York Post. I realize this is a big imposition, so I will understand if the answer is no. I am trying to trace Woodrow Wilson's alleged remark after screening the film Birth of a Nation: "It is like writing history in lightning. My only regret is that it is all so terribly true." According to Russell Merritt, "Dixon, Griffith, and the Southern Legend," Cinema Journal 12: 26-45 (1972), "This famous remark was first quoted in the New York Post, March 4, 1915." This is the citation I would like to verify, as well as checking that the exact wording as given above is correct. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 16:59:00 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:59:00 EST Subject: sammich in Iowa and France Message-ID: "sa'wich" is, I'm sure, my normal, informal pronunciation (with nasalization of the firfst vowel, of course). This strikes me as the "most informal stage," with the /nd/ pronunciation as the most formal and the /nw/ pronunciation the "nearly" least "formal." The pronuncation with the velar nasal sounds alien to me (not that David Barnhart is an alien in any sense except that he is apparently not a member of my sub-dialect clan with respect to this important word." The pronunciation with the velar nasal sounds like something that a French vampire would delight in (to continue with the silly puns). In a message dated 1/21/05 9:02:40 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > (By the way, the next, nearly most informal stage, for good speakers > like me is  a loss of the nasal altogether, excepting nasalization of > the vowel, of course but still with a /w/. ["Still with a /w/!" An > unfortunate choice of words today, though I guess it would have been > worse yesterday.] Of course, you can get here from 'sangwich' as > well. Most informally, I can realize this item as a monosyllable, > with loss of /w/ - /s [+nasal ae:] ch/.) > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 17:03:31 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:03:31 EST Subject: Query: women > wimming Message-ID: I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a velar nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" pronunciation? From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:13:11 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:13:11 -0600 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've noticed a similar phenomenon in the use of velar nasal in "given" (e.g. Given our present situation...) within fairly formal speech contexts (e.g. academic meetings). In this case, of course, the velar pronunciation may be promoted in part by a reanalysis of the word as "giving". On 1/21/05 11:03 AM, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, > sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects > himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a > velar > nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. > > Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a > hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" > pronunciation? From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:41:42 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:41:42 -0500 Subject: sammich in Iowa and France In-Reply-To: <190.37cebf3e.2f228ed4@aol.com> Message-ID: Ron, You sure (in fast speech) you ain't got the monosyllable (with an admittedly long /ae/? dInIs >"sa'wich" is, I'm sure, my normal, informal pronunciation (with nasalization >of the firfst vowel, of course). This strikes me as the "most informal stage," >with the /nd/ pronunciation as the most formal and the /nw/ pronunciation the >"nearly" least "formal." The pronuncation with the velar nasal sounds alien >to me (not that David Barnhart is an alien in any sense except that he is >apparently not a member of my sub-dialect clan with respect to this important >word." > >The pronunciation with the velar nasal sounds like something that a French >vampire would delight in (to continue with the silly puns). > >In a message dated 1/21/05 9:02:40 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> (By the way, the next, nearly most informal stage, for good speakers >> like me is a loss of the nasal altogether, excepting nasalization of >> the vowel, of course but still with a /w/. ["Still with a /w/!" An >> unfortunate choice of words today, though I guess it would have been >> worse yesterday.] Of course, you can get here from 'sangwich' as >> well. Most informally, I can realize this item as a monosyllable, >> with loss of /w/ - /s [+nasal ae:] ch/.) >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:43:20 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:43:20 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. dInIs >I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >with a velar >nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. > >Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >"-ing" pronunciation? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:44:25 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:44:25 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt, You fergot that they might jus be ignernt. dInIs >I've noticed a similar phenomenon in the use of velar nasal in "given" (e.g. >Given our present situation...) within fairly formal speech contexts (e.g. >academic meetings). >In this case, of course, the velar pronunciation may be promoted in part by >a reanalysis of the word as "giving". > > >On 1/21/05 11:03 AM, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > >> I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >> sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >> himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a >> velar >> nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >> >> Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >> hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" >> pronunciation? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:57:00 2005 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:57:00 -0600 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <200501211703.j0LH3bJk026804@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: My great-grandparents (rural Alabamians, born before 1920) said "chicking" instead of "chicken" whenever the preacher came to eat. A case of the same hypercorrection, I would think. Rachel RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: Query: women > wimming >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a velar >nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. > >Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" pronunciation? > > -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:08:44 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:08:44 -0800 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country > to ruin. just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. arnold From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:16:11 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:16:11 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <7D1104FF-6BD7-11D9-9253-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, Yes, I (in)famously recently said in a talk that "African Americans and Appalachian immigrants are retarded in their acquisition of the Northern Cities Shift." Course in my opinion (from a purely affective point of view of course), it ain't no better kind of retardation to have than that which holds off the NCS, but some folk did have to take others aside and explain Kindly Old Perfessor Preston's rhetorical ineptitude. Please don't do the same with the above. dInIs >On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >>to ruin. > >just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:15:38 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:15:38 -0800 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <7D1104FF-6BD7-11D9-9253-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: --On Friday, January 21, 2005 10:08 AM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> ...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >> to ruin. > > just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. > > arnold Of course you meant to say "blown out of context," right? :) ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 18:29:16 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:29:16 EST Subject: Sanas of Naked Lunch Message-ID: Naked Lunch Lunch is a word-perfect example of how the orthodoxy of so-called "scientific etymology" mirrors the 19th and 20th century Oxford-Ivy league orthodoxy of "scientific racism;" wing-nut etymologies that read like a genealogy of the German English Royal family, who lunch for a living. But first, the lowly lunch of Irish and Scots-Gaelic. Lunch Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-hesh, the “fh" ="h" slender “s” = “sh”) A feast of meat (Dineen, p. 675) Lo/n, g. lo/in, pl. id., lo/nta, lo/inte, m., Food, meats, provisions, supplies, stores; diet, dinner. “The Gael of old, like the other ancient nations, had but one meal or diet daily – the lo/n.” (Dwelly, p. 598). Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-esh), a feast of meat, is found in an Irish aisling or “dream poem,” Aisling Meic Conglinne, edited by Kuno Meyer in 1892. (Dineen, p. xxiii) Luncheon Lo/in-fheis a/n (Pron. lowneshan) A noble, “royal” feast of meat and dainties. A/n, adj : noble. The adjective A/n is a highfalutin word like the moniker Windsor (from the Old German Battenburg.) So the callow young prince's Nazi costume was really a family heirloom. Oxford Dictionary's Hunch on "Lunch" The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology gives the origin of “lunch” and “ luncheon” as first appearing “towards the end of the 16th century in the sense of a ‘thick piece, hunch, hunk; perhaps – Spanish lonja slice, the longer form being probably an extension on the analogy of punch and puncheon, trunch and truncheon. The sense “slight repast between morning meals’ appears XVIIth C., for luncheon, and first in form lunchin’(g); the present use of lunch (XIX) is a shortening of this whence lunch vb. (p. 540) Barnhart, the American etymological dictionary, also traces the word luncheon to a word meaning a “thick piece, or hunk,” claiming the source is an obscure North English dialect in the 17th century. Of course, neither scientific etymological dictionary provides a single citation for their source. When you wallpaper the discourse, who needs steenking citations? Oxford goes with a Spanish word lonja, for a slice, while Barnhart connects lunch to Proto-Germanic “skankon” and Old English “scanca,” meaning a hollow bone used to draw booze out of a cask. So from lunch to hunk to hollow bone. A skankon etymology. This "scientific" etymology of Lunch really has to be read in full to be believed. Though I would never question an Oxford English professor's lunch or faith. Luncheon, n. 1580 luncheon a thick piece, hunk; later, a light meal (lunching before 1652 and luncheon, 1706). The semantic development was probably influenced by North English lunch hunk of bread or cheese; the morphological development may have been by alteration of dialectical Nuncheon light meal, developed from Middle English nonechenche, nonschench (1342), a compound of none NOON + schench drink, from Old English scenc, from scencan pour out. Old English scencan is cognate with Old Frisian skenka pour out, Old saxon, skenkian, Middle Dutch scencen (Modern Dutch schenken), and Old High German skenken (modern German einschenken), from Proto-Germanic skankjanan draw off (liquor), formed from skankon shinbone, SHANK (in Old English scanca), “ a hollow bone...and hence a pipe, a pipe thrust into a cask to tap it.” (W.W. Skeat). (Barnhart, p. 615) Lunch, n. 1829, shortened form of luncheon. -V. eat lunch. 1823 in Issac Disraeli’s Curiosities of Literature (no pg citation); from the noun. though of preceding date. —lunchroom n. (1830, American English) –lunchtime n., (1859, in George Eliot’s Letters). Lunch Lo/in-fheis (pron. lownesh) Feast of meat, food, and dainties. Free lo/in-fheis (lunch.) Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of Clifornia San Francisco 1.19.05 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 18:40:30 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:40:30 -0600 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into > a defensive posture. > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:44:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:44:20 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not only that; someone recently (I think it was Diane Rheam) interviewed some novelist or other and referred to his model as "Charles Dickings." At 12:43 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >Ron, > >I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. > >dInIs > > > >>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>with a velar >>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >> >>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>"-ing" pronunciation? > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:47:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:47:48 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Ron, > >I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. > >dInIs > that's Dicking's, innit? > >>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>with a velar >>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >> >>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>"-ing" pronunciation? > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 18:57:47 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:57:47 -0600 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: I don't understand what this one means. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > > NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL > ... > This is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2004), pg. 627. > ... > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > THE WHISPERER; SYNOPSIS. > ROY VICKERS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, > Ill.: Apr 26, 1932. > p. 12 (1 page): > "This is Walter. Walter Who, says you. Never mind who--no > names, no pack-drill." > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:53:59 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:53:59 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) Message-ID: Here's a comment on "nasi goreng" by a Javanese/Indonesian colleague of mine. >X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:58:24 -0500 >From: Suharni Soemarmo >To: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) >X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) >X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: >2005.1.21.4 (pm5) >X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/filtering/ >X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CD 0, __CT 0, __CTE >0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __LINES_OF_YELLING >0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' > >Thanks Bev. > >Actually fried rice "nasi goreng" is not complicated. What is intended is >probably "nasi rames", a small version of "rijstafel," a 21-course >dinner. The rice is put on a plate with at least ten kinds of side dish, >usually without sauce. > >Suharni > > >>> ; >>>Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:10:47 -0800 >>>Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys >>>From: lanang lanang >>>Subject: Re: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: >>>2005.1.7.0 (pm2) >>>X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/filtering/ >>>X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=XXIIIIII, Probability=26%, Report='RCVD_IN_CBL 3, __CT >>>0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __DOMAINKEYS_YAHOO 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, >>>__MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' >>> >>>I am Indonesian, to be more specific I am Javanese. What Mr. ZImmer >>>wrote is correct about nasi goreng: there's no standard way of making >>>nasi goreng and what ingredients are used. However, there are certain >>>exact similarities among those differences: you must grind all >>>ingredients (spices), like cabai, salt, onion, garlic, before you star >>>frying the rice, and the result of grinding here is "sambel ulek" (not >>>sambel ulik") :). And most people will use soy sauce (kecap) and egg. >>>Most chinese restaurants in Indonesia consider nasi goreng as their >>>main food to sell. Besides all the ingredients I mentioned earlier, >>>the chinese in Indonesia will put (optionally) shrimp, sausage, meat >>>balls (we call it here bakso), squid, ham, lamb, even petai or pete >>>(small look-like-nut vegetable and can cause smell in your mouth and >>>urine after consuming it; this is loved by many lower middle people[and >>>some upper middle, but they wouldn't admit it :p ]). hopefully this >>>info will benefit our understanding about fried rice... >>> >>>A. Lanang >>> >>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>> >>>OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm >>>sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and >>>1939... >>> >>> >>>Los Angeles Times, May 23, 1938, p. III4/5 >>>FRIED RICE (Nasi Goreng) >>>As its Malay name implies, this consists basically of rice fried until it >>>is brown. There is no uniform recipe by which other ingredients are >>>determined; individual taste and chance as to ingredients available are >>>determining factors, with the result that the dish is never the same in >>>any two households. Usually small cubes of meat, fish or chicken are >>>fried with the rice. Sliced onions and cocoanut may be included. Spices >>>used include paprika and "sambal ulik" (very hot red pepper). >>> >>>Los Angeles Times, Sep 4, 1939, p. II2/8 >>>At the Dutch East Indies restaurant I found a 21-course feast called >>>Rijstaffel. >>>"What," I inquired of the beturbaned brown man who brought the 16th >>>offering, "is this tasty dish?" >>>"Nasi goreng." >>>"Thank you," I said, "and tell me, do you Javanese fear a Japanese >>>invasion?" "Nasi goreng." >>> >>>Los Angeles Times, Sep 24, 1939, p. I11/2 >>>A great many Javanese dishes would not be practical for home cooking, >>>because so many spices are needed and must be so skilfully comibned. But >>>one of the chef's special dishes is entirely practical and very, very >>>good. He calls it fried rice nasi Goreng, and he has given us the >>>following recipe. >>> >>> >>>--Ben Zimmer > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 19:28:24 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:28:24 -0600 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Didn't Walt Kelly's Pogo Possum eat sammiches? Or maybe Albert Alligator? From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 21 19:50:50 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:50:50 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: neil writes: >on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: > >> But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? > >Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? ~~~~~~~~ Yup. In my case, anyway. An' han'some, of course. AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 19:49:09 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:49:09 -0500 Subject: church sign Message-ID: Here's another sign I just noticed: A predominantly black church in Athens has this in its outdoor sign case: "Help us build a bridge over trouble waters." The pastor is an AAE speaker and a professor of African American Studies at OU. Good example of final t/d deletion reflected in spelling. Come to think of it, the wording is right on (though the sign predated the tsunami); we now know waters can be big trouble. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jan 21 20:47:11 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:47:11 -0500 Subject: Query: "Can't handle whitey" Message-ID: A correspondent writes with the following question. Please respond to him directly, as well as to the list. > From: francis reilly > Date: January 21, 2005 13:14:21 EST > Subject: phrase? > > I recently heard the phrase "C. H. Dub," standing for > "can't handle it whitey." Evidently, it was used > (circa 1960) by a waiter (black) who was an > aquaintance of a friend. I've searched for other > instances of its use and can't find anything, so I am > not sure if this was made up by the waiter. > > Frank Reilly > ottorino_respighi at yahoo.com From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 21:15:57 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:15:57 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20sammich=20in=20Iowa?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20and=20France?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/21/05 12:41:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > Ron, > > You sure (in fast speech) you ain't got the monosyllable (with an > admittedly long /ae/? > > dInIs > No, if there is anything there it is a kind of very weak glottal stop--or that is the way it feels to me. My tongue NEVER touches my alveolar ridge. (Or am I misunderstanding the question?) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 21:31:01 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:31:01 EST Subject: Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982) Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:31:13 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" > ... > Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. Something similar appears in "Fiddler on the Roof" (1964). I don't have a script available, but from memory: someone says something about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and someone else (probably Tevye) responds that the whole world will be blind and toothless. If someone is interested in pursuing this, the place to check is Shalom Aleichem's book "Tevye the Dairyman" (on which "Fiddler on the Roof" was based). - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 21:36:47 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:36:47 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Filmography" In-Reply-To: <156.48cdfdba.2f20a08c@aol.com> Message-ID: filmography (OED 1962) 1960 _Film Quarterly_ Autumn 32 Each of the two volumes concludes with 25-30 pages of stills ... and with a very detailed filmography. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 21:36:06 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:36:06 EST Subject: We is Message-ID: For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American woman who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most lightly-AAVE-flavored which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" but so do a lot of Anglos). Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of this particular speaker? - Jim Landau From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 21:58:32 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:58:32 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:40 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into >> a defensive posture. >> > > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, > and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just > got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). > > The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, > "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, > purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) > Back in the '60's in LA, amongst the colored, at least, "bogart" - very often also overcorrected to "BO god" by young peppers who didn't remember Humphey Bogart - had the same meaning as "gorilla," which meant, "force one to unball one's fists." that is, being bad enough to cause an opponent, by sheer force of personality, to abandon his opposition, without the necessity of actually having to kick said opponent's ass. WRT "bogarting" a joint, I interpreted that to mean that the alpha toker had the habit of forcing his fellows to ask/beg him for a hit, as a means of underlining his status as "the man." Schoolyard bullies did literally say to a kid who was contemplating standing up for himself, "Unball your fists, man! Don't make me have to hurt you!" Of course, even after the kid had unballed his fists, the bully would hurt him, anyway, just on general principles, that being the nature of bullies. -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 22:18:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:18:24 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wasn't "wimming" Popeye's normal pronunciation of "women"? FWIW, my mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. -Wilson On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Ron, >> >> I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >> hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. >> >> dInIs >> > > that's Dicking's, innit? > >> >>> I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake >>> Charles, LA, >>> sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then >>> corrects >>> himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>> with a velar >>> nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >>> >>> Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>> hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>> "-ing" pronunciation? >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >> Wells Hall A-740 >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> Office: (517) 353-0740 >> Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 22:39:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:39:29 -0800 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: Well, they are the *same* word, but for people who reserve the differing pronunciations for specific meanings - or parts of speech - they're inching toward becoming different dictionary entries. Different "words." Not quite the same, since the difference arose in spelling rather than pronuciation, but comparable in principle, are "complete" and "compleat," which now generally have separate dictionary entries, "compleat" (largely from allusions to Izaak Walton) now means "consummate" only and is no longer just a variant spelling of "complete." JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: The stink/The stank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different pronounciation? (I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun "stink") I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music videos, around the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar Melonhead) "Little Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a pink house, but it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh muther pank." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote > from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not > getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted > in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to > draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. > But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in > what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? > It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I > once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to > pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be > distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you > mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, > in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it > stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. > But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and > "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just > ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar > about it at all. > > -Wilson > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably > > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. > > > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated > > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, > "You got the > > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about > sixty years > > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, > "everybody can > > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." > > > > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country > > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go > 'hayid. Put > > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put > your mark (of > > ownership, etc.) on it." > > > > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. > > > > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both > > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the > > spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, > > "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, > > disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the > word, the inside dope, the skinny," > > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other > > cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul > up," etc. > > A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. > > > > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following > > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo! From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 22:41:07 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:41:07 -0500 Subject: sammich in Iowa and France In-Reply-To: <11.3d3f5be4.2f22cb0d@aol.com> Message-ID: It's the disappearance of an onset /w/ which I am after. dInIs >In a message dated 1/21/05 12:41:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> Ron, >> >> You sure (in fast speech) you ain't got the monosyllable (with an >> admittedly long /ae/? >> >> dInIs >> > >No, if there is anything there it is a kind of very weak glottal stop--or >that is the way it feels to me. My tongue NEVER touches my alveolar >ridge. (Or am >I misunderstanding the question?) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 22:44:43 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:44:43 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <5DC46052-6BFA-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: Your mother and me. (No offense intended.) dInIs >Wasn't "wimming" Popeye's normal pronunciation of "women"? FWIW, my >mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > >-Wilson > >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Ron, >>> >>>I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >>>hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. >>> >>>dInIs >>> >> >>that's Dicking's, innit? >> >>> >>>>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake >>>>Charles, LA, >>>>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then >>>>corrects >>>>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>>>with a velar >>>>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >>>> >>>>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>>>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>>>"-ing" pronunciation? >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Dennis R. Preston >>>University Distinguished Professor >>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >>> Asian and African Languages >>>Wells Hall A-740 >>>Michigan State University >>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>>Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jan 21 22:55:21 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:55:21 -0800 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <5DC46052-6BFA-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray wrote: > FWIW, my > mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any other way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been miss-pronouncing women all these years? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 22:59:26 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:59:26 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:54 AM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, >> but I >> know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that >> "library" >> is going to follow "February" right down the tube. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > Not to worry. Your missing 'r' finds it's unnecessary place in one UK > arts > commentator's pronunciation on BBC2 TV: she says 'drawring' for > 'drawing'. > Yes. That "r" is very common in the Northeast of the US - New England, in fact. Once, I overheard a conversation between two local women in Cambridge, Massachsetts. One, describing a trip out west, said to her friend, "While I was in California - "California," that's the way they pronounce it out there." At that time, I lived in California. I thought, somewhat indignantly, "WTF! Is she saying that Californians don't know how to pronounce the name of their own state?! How bad is that?!" I was able to relax, though, as soon as I recalled that Boston-area locals are themselves so inept at speaking English that *they* think that "California " is pronounced "Califo'nia"! This is the same - well, close enough to being the same for government work - pronunciation used by country folk in East Texas. -Wilson Gray From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 23:01:07 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:01:07 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <5DC46052-6BFA-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: And has anyone heard the plural pronounced the same as the singular, [wU m at n/wo m at n]? I hear this from radio people in particular--a spelling pronunciation/hypercorrection, I assume. At 05:18 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >Wasn't "wimming" Popeye's normal pronunciation of "women"? FWIW, my >mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > >-Wilson > >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Ron, >>> >>>I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >>>hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. >>> >>>dInIs >> >>that's Dicking's, innit? >> >>> >>>>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake >>>>Charles, LA, >>>>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then >>>>corrects >>>>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>>>with a velar >>>>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >>>> >>>>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>>>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>>>"-ing" pronunciation? >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Dennis R. Preston >>>University Distinguished Professor >>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >>> Asian and African Languages >>>Wells Hall A-740 >>>Michigan State University >>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>>Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 23:07:04 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:07:04 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$5t87k2@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:20 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Is it any surprise that /l/ would behave like /r/ in English? There > is not only the perceptual/articulatory fuzziness which > introduces/deletes a final /l/, there is also a historical > background. In the West of English, centered perhaps on Bristol, > /l/-vocalization is common. The city name itself is pronounced > "Bristow." This /l/ vocalization (or outright loss in some cases) is > also very common in the American South (including the South > Midlands). Where I grew up, the vocalizers (Kin Ah hewp yu) made fun > of the deleters (Kin Ah hep yu); boy was it a wakekup call to us when > we went a little farther North and found out that the vocalizing got > lumped together with the deleting so that we were all classified as > SKs. > > I digress into perception; my bad. > > So some teachers and others defenders of the tongue went around in > Bristol telling people that the city had an /l/ in final position, > whuppin chillun somethin awful till they said it. Don't take smart > kids long to figger out that if they start puttin /l/s in after final > vowels, they will risk their butts less. So, of course, they started > saying "Bristol," but they also started saying "ideal," "sofal," > "sodal," and lots of other treasures of the tongue. Hm. I reckon that the kids in Bristol are sharp as a pistol even when they're not doing the "Bristol stomp." -Wilson Gray > > Now I don't want to claim that hypercorrection is the only source of > "Bristol L" (as this phenomenon is known amongst us dialectologists). > Once an indeterminate pronunciation is in the air as regards the > treatment of these final vowel words, whether a child learns the > lexical item "idea" as "idea" or "ideal" is up for grabs. > > Note, for example, how, without teacher supervision, the linking /r/ > of "pizzar and beer" has caused some learners to reanalyze the > underlying form of the first word as "pizzar," in spite of general > phonotactic constraints is the local dialect. > > The hypercorrection story is similar to one of the accounts of the > Cincinnati, Missouri pronunciations with final schwa. Since some of > us old-timey SKs say "sodi" and "sofi" (for "soda" and "sofa"), we > got whacked just like them little Pistols from Bristol, and started > eschewing all final schwas; oncet you do that, hit's easy to get > Cincinnat@ and Missour at . (I know there's other accounts of this, > specially for the state name.) > > Course, it's obvious that little poopers who have made one rather > than another analysis of the phonemic composition of a word during > their growing up years will clearly constitute the class known as the > ignorant in adulthood. We all know that. > > dInIs > > > > >> Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 >> p.m.: >> [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for >> "idea." Anybody else notice this? >> >> ******** >> >> Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, >> Missouri), >> and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were >> looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. >> That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. >> >> Gerald Cohen > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African > Languages > A-740 Wells Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > Phone: (517) 432-3099 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > preston at msu.edu > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 23:14:48 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:14:48 -0600 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:59 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > Back in the '60's in LA, amongst the colored, at least, > "bogart" - very often also overcorrected to "BO god" by young > peppers who didn't remember Humphey Bogart - had the same > meaning as "gorilla," which meant, "force one to unball one's > fists." that is, being bad enough to cause an opponent, by > sheer force of personality, to abandon his opposition, > without the necessity of actually having to kick said > opponent's ass. WRT "bogarting" a joint, I interpreted that > to mean that the alpha toker had the habit of forcing his > fellows to ask/beg him for a hit, as a means of underlining > his status as "the man." > Thanks for the background -- that's the only reasonable explanation I've ever heard for the term. In the experience of my friends, those who bogarted weren't trying to assert their "alpha toker" status, they were just stoned and forgot to pass it on. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 23:16:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: sammich > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > arnold, > > Yes, I (in)famously recently said in a talk that "African Americans > and Appalachian immigrants are retarded in their acquisition of the > Northern Cities Shift." Jesus, dInIs, you really stepped on your dick with that one!;-) -Wilson > > Course in my opinion (from a purely affective point of view of > course), it ain't no better kind of retardation to have than that > which holds off the NCS, but some folk did have to take others aside > and explain Kindly Old Perfessor Preston's rhetorical ineptitude. > > Please don't do the same with the above. > > dInIs > >> On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> >>> ...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >>> to ruin. >> >> just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. >> >> arnold > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 23:28:49 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:28:49 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <7FEDC6D0-6C02-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: Thank you for suggesting I could (without being a contortionist). dInIs (who still succumbs to some adolescent fantasies) >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>Subject: Re: sammich >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>arnold, >> >>Yes, I (in)famously recently said in a talk that "African Americans >>and Appalachian immigrants are retarded in their acquisition of the >>Northern Cities Shift." > >Jesus, dInIs, you really stepped on your dick with that one!;-) > >-Wilson > >> >>Course in my opinion (from a purely affective point of view of >>course), it ain't no better kind of retardation to have than that >>which holds off the NCS, but some folk did have to take others aside >>and explain Kindly Old Perfessor Preston's rhetorical ineptitude. >> >>Please don't do the same with the above. >> >>dInIs >> >>>On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>> >>>>...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >>>>to ruin. >>> >>>just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. >>> >>>arnold >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 23:31:03 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:31:03 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <19288904-6C00-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 05:59 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:54 AM, neil wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: neil >>Subject: Re: Idea/ideal >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, >>>but I >>>know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that >>>"library" >>>is going to follow "February" right down the tube. >>> >>>-Wilson Gray >>Not to worry. Your missing 'r' finds it's unnecessary place in one UK >>arts >>commentator's pronunciation on BBC2 TV: she says 'drawring' for >>'drawing'. > >Yes. That "r" is very common in the Northeast of the US - New England, >in fact. Once, I overheard a conversation between two local women in >Cambridge, Massachsetts. One, describing a trip out west, said to her >friend, "While I was in California - "California," that's the way they >pronounce it out there." At that time, I lived in California. I >thought, somewhat indignantly, "WTF! Is she saying that Californians >don't know how to pronounce the name of their own state?! How bad is >that?!" I was able to relax, though, as soon as I recalled that >Boston-area locals are themselves so inept at speaking English that >*they* think that "California " is pronounced "Califo'nia"! This is the >same - well, close enough to being the same for government work - >pronunciation used by country folk in East Texas. > >-Wilson Gray But the /r/ in 'drawring' is not a loss but an addition, akin to the /l/ I cited earlier with reference to my grad student's pronunciation and spelling 'drawling' (then a 6-year-old, if I didn't make that clear before). It's the same word-final or intervocalic insertion Dennis alluded to earlier today, in this case, of a liquid. (Compare 'oncet/twicet' and 'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 23:37:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:37:31 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Most people pronounce "women" as though it's spelled "wimmin." My mother pronounces "women" as though it's spelled "wimmun," with a *very* clear schwa in the final syllable. She forms the plural of "woman" by raising and fronting the [^] of the first syllable to [I] while leaving the schwa of the final syllable unmodified. I find it very annoying. But, what can you do, if it's your own mom? -Wilson Gray On Jan 21, 2005, at 5:55 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> FWIW, my >> mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > > ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any > other > way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables > before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been > miss-pronouncing women all these years? > > ***************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon > ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 00:21:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:21:16 -0500 Subject: We is In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American > woman > who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most > lightly-AAVE-flavored > which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" > but so do a > lot of Anglos). > > Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of this > particular speaker? > > - Jim Landau > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? -Wilson Gray From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 22 00:29:32 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:29:32 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1106319321@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: >--On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray > wrote: > >>FWIW, my >>mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > >??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any other >way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables >before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been >miss-pronouncing women all these years? > As Wilson says, the standard version would have an unstressed [I] in the second syllable rather than [@], but I don't think I'm alone in having trouble detecting quality differences in unstressed English vowels, as in the old "roses"/"Rosa's" minimal pair, or "hand in glove"/"hand an' glove". (I mentioned a number of these in my "spitten image" paper from last year's AS. Besides [I] and [@], it's claimed that some speakers have a vowel closer to barred-i, which I won't try to asciify.) larry From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Jan 21 18:07:21 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:07:21 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: I hear 'polm' for 'poem' all the time and even hear 'bolth' for 'both' fairly often. Fritz >> >>JL > >I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my >pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. > >-Wilson >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is common in the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students do it all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since they very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I think) by her teacher. She never got over it. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Jan 21 18:09:20 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:09:20 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: My wife says 'mongster' and can hardly say 'monster'--only with GREAT difficulty. I don't understand why it' so difficult for her. Fritz Sammich?! WTF! I much prefer to have a sangwich. I know that no less a light than Richard Pryor is a sammich man. Nevertheless, I gotta go with the dialect of my birthplace and have a sangwich. But, WRT the other lexical items, I gotta give you your props. You're the man. -Wilson Gray > > >>>> > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, > but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid > that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. > > -Wilson Gray > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Jan 22 00:38:19 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:38:19 -0800 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To me, an [I] in the second syllable sounds decidedly Eastern. Or like my wife indicating the sometime feminist spelling "wimmin" for ironic effect. My own pronunciation feels like a barred i or possibly a schwa. Certainly not a front vowel. Peter Mc. --On Friday, January 21, 2005 7:29 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: >> --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray >> wrote: >> >>> FWIW, my >>> mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. >> >> ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any other >> way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables >> before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been >> miss-pronouncing women all these years? >> > As Wilson says, the standard version would have an unstressed [I] in > the second syllable rather than [@], but I don't think I'm alone in > having trouble detecting quality differences in unstressed English > vowels, as in the old "roses"/"Rosa's" minimal pair, or "hand in > glove"/"hand an' glove". (I mentioned a number of these in my > "spitten image" paper from last year's AS. Besides [I] and [@], it's > claimed that some speakers have a vowel closer to barred-i, which I > won't try to asciify.) > > larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Jan 22 00:40:04 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:40:04 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jeez, Fritz--you gotta get outta Salem! Peter Mc. --On Friday, January 21, 2005 10:07 AM -0800 FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > I hear 'polm' for 'poem' all the time and even hear 'bolth' for 'both' > fairly often. Fritz ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 22 01:26:43 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:26:43 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <97A3D39C-6BF7-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 4:58 PM -0500 1/21/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:40 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>From: American Dialect Society >>>[mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >>>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>> >>>Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into >>>a defensive posture. >>> >> >>Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, >>and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just >>got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). >> >>The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, >>"Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, >>purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) >> > >Back in the '60's in LA, amongst the colored, at least, "bogart" - very >often also overcorrected to "BO god" by young peppers who didn't >remember Humphey Bogart - had the same meaning as "gorilla," which >meant, "force one to unball one's fists." that is, being bad enough to >cause an opponent, by sheer force of personality, to abandon his >opposition, without the necessity of actually having to kick said >opponent's ass. WRT "bogarting" a joint, I interpreted that to mean >that the alpha toker had the habit of forcing his fellows to ask/beg >him for a hit, as a means of underlining his status as "the man." > Well, since nobody's chimed in yet with HDAS's entry... The first cites of the verb are indeed associated with "Black E.", 'to force or coerce, bully, intimidate', from 1966. Us whiteys' sense for the verb as 'hog, esp. of a marijuana cigarette' dates back to its memorable occurrence in the "Easy Rider" movie, 1969. I couldn't remember (duh!) the "artists" who popularized that song--Fraternity of Man? If you say so.... Artist: The Fraternity Of Man Lyrics Song: Don't Bogart Me Lyrics Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Roll another one Just like the other one. This one's burnt to the end Come on and be a friend. Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Ro-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-oll another one Just like the other one. You've been hanging on to it And I sure would like a hit. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 02:06:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:06:49 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: "If they don't know (and we don't tell) our names, they can't punish us with pack-drill," a British Army disciplinary exercise involving marching or running under full pack for an extended period. "Pack-drill," AFAIK, is not an American phrase. F. H. Snow wrote a WWI novel so titled (London: Palmer, 1932). JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand what this one means. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > > NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL > ... > This is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2004), pg. 627. > ... > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > THE WHISPERER; SYNOPSIS. > ROY VICKERS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, > Ill.: Apr 26, 1932. > p. 12 (1 page): > "This is Walter. Walter Who, says you. Never mind who--no > names, no pack-drill." > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 02:09:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:09:23 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 5:44 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Your mother and me. (No offense intended.) > > dInIs None taken, needless to say. -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 02:09:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:09:49 -0800 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: "To bogart" = to intimidate, bully (usu. "into" something), kind of like a Bogart character. Thanks, Wilson, for the first example in many years. Am proud to be a part of it. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: The stink/The stank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into > a defensive posture. > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 02:14:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:14:08 -0800 Subject: "second-hand" Message-ID: Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." Since then I've heard this many times. Have you? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 02:31:52 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:31:52 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:09 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My wife says 'mongster' and can hardly say 'monster'--only with GREAT > difficulty. I don't understand why it' so difficult for her. > Fritz > Back in the days before ibuprofen went generic and I saw the name spelled out in ads, I pronounced "Motrin" as "Moltrin." And your lady wife (I used to watch the Celtic Channel) has my sympathy. It's only by thinking before speaking that I can make the distinction between -im-/-in- and -em-/-en-. Otherwise, they fall together as -im-/-in-. -Wilson > Sammich?! WTF! I much prefer to have a sangwich. I know that no less a > light than Richard Pryor is a sammich man. Nevertheless, I gotta go > with the dialect of my birthplace and have a sangwich. But, WRT the > other lexical items, I gotta give you your props. You're the man. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> >>>>> >> Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, >> but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid >> that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 03:35:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:35:34 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "To bogart" = to intimidate, bully (usu. "into" something), kind of > like a Bogart character. > > Thanks, Wilson, for the first example in many years. Am proud to be a > part of it. > > JL 'Twas my pleasure, Jon! -Wilson > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into >> a defensive posture. >> > > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, > and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just > got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). > > The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, > "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, > purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Jan 22 02:54:42 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:54:42 -0600 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Wilson's posts of recent days don't suggest that was a compliment. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" Thank you for suggesting I could (without being a contortionist). dInIs (who still succumbs to some adolescent fantasies) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 04:00:52 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:00:52 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 7:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray >> wrote: >> >>> FWIW, my >>> mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. >> >> ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any >> other >> way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables >> before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been >> miss-pronouncing women all these years? >> > As Wilson says, the standard version would have an unstressed [I] in > the second syllable rather than [@], but I don't think I'm alone in > having trouble detecting quality differences in unstressed English > vowels, as in the old "roses"/"Rosa's" minimal pair, or "hand in > glove"/"hand an' glove". (I mentioned a number of these in my > "spitten image" paper from last year's AS. Besides [I] and [@], it's > claimed that some speakers have a vowel closer to barred-i, which I > won't try to asciify.) > > larry > IMO, I can distinguish "roses" from "Rosa's," at least when I speak these aloud to myself. That is, I admit the possibility that I wouldn't necessarily be able tell the difference under any other circumstances. But there's no difference at all that I can discern between "hand in glove" and "hand and glove" in normal speech, even when I speak them aloud to myself. And, of course, "spit and image," spitten image," and "spittin' image" all fall together. -Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Jan 22 06:30:37 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:30:37 -0500 Subject: Mighty white of you-1916 Message-ID: I couln't find that we had done this in the archive. Maybe I did it at Straight Dope. Using Proquest, 6 Aug. 1916, _Chicago Tribune_ pg A1 col. 3 <> Sam Clements From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 09:51:08 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:51:08 -0800 Subject: We is In-Reply-To: <8833D552-6C0B-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: I think "We was" is much more typical. What is the context of the African American woman's use of "we is"? Does it replace the traditional zero copula construction? Any example sentences? Wilson Gray wrote:On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American > woman > who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most > lightly-AAVE-flavored > which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" > but so do a > lot of Anglos). > > Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of this > particular speaker? > > - Jim Landau > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? -Wilson Gray Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 22 09:57:37 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:57:37 -0500 Subject: Mighty white of you-1916 Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:30:37 -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >I couln't find that we had done this in the archive. Maybe I did it at Straight Dope. > >Using Proquest, 6 Aug. 1916, _Chicago Tribune_ pg A1 col. 3 > ><> There's an OED2 cite for "this is white of you" from 1913 (Edith Wharton's _The Custom of the Country_). And here's another variant from 1893: "It's deuced white of you, Vertner," said Philip, with gloomy gratitude. "Benefits Forgot" by Wolcott Balestier, p. 773 The Century, Volume 45, Issue 5, Mar 1893 http://tinyurl.com/46dj8 --Ben Zimmer From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 10:01:25 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:01:25 EST Subject: church sign Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:49:09 -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > Here's another sign I just noticed: > A predominantly black church in Athens has this in its outdoor sign > case: "Help us build a bridge over trouble waters." The pastor is an AAE > speaker and a professor of African American Studies at OU. Good example of > final t/d deletion reflected in spelling. First, it is quite likely that the sign was put up not by the pastor/professor but by the sexton or the office secretary of the church. Second, as best as I can recall, on the Simon and Garfunkel recording of "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" the /d/ in "troubled" is either missing or extremely weak, and is easily interpreted as /trouble waters/. This may even have been deliberate, as the second syllable of "troubled" is (if I remember correctly) stretched out, and S and/or G may have decided that ending that syllable with the stop /d/ would have been jarring in that long legato passage. - Jim Landau Aside to Wilson Gray: good point on "Anglo". I don't know why I wrote "Anglo" when I meant "white", as I was meaning to say that "he don't" is NOT restricted to AAVE. Anyway, I'm sure there are numerous Lationos who say "he don't". From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 10:37:40 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:37:40 EST Subject: Tartufo (1955) Message-ID: TARTUFO ... This week, I continued the ethnic restaurants of Ninth Avenue chowdown with Basilica, 676 Ninth Avenue between 46th and 47th Streets, an OK, reasonably-priced Italian restaurant. For dessert, there was "tiramisu" and "tartuffo." ... While dictionaries rushed to include "tiramisu," "tartufo" is not in my Merriam-Webster. A few weeks ago, I heard "tartufo" lavishly explained to tourists at DiTamasso on Eight Avenue and West 56th. ... William Grimes's EATING YOUR WORDS, pg. 214, explains: "an Italian dessert, containing chocolate, of a creamy mousselike consistency. --ORIGIN Italian, literally 'truffle.'" ... "Tartufo," in this dessert sense, is not in the OED. You'd never know about the dessert's history at the Tre Scalini restaurant at the Piazza Navona in Rome. You could consult my online food dictionary, but...I'm busy doing parking tickets. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 168 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=170398692&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110638 5458&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 20, 1955. p. M8 (1 page) ... ROMAN FEVER...Once you've had it, you never really recover. And spring is the very worst time. YOU DREAM of _fragole_, the tiny woodland strawberries, and baby _piselli_, of fat creamy _fettuccine carciofi alla romano_ and the wines of the Castelli Romani and Valadiev's on the Pincio (Where Nathaniel Hawthorne used to go) and of the Tartufo at the Tre Scalini in the Piazzo Navona, the most beautiful square in _tutto il mondo_. ... _An Effortless Way to Give a Greek Wedding Feast or an Italian Picnic_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?i ndex=0&did=79674779&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106382777&clientId=65882) By JEAN HEWITT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 3, 1971. p. 31 (1 page) ... There's Galliano in the rich chocolate tartufo dessert for 75 cents and rum in the zuppa Inglese for 75 cents a slice. ... _Respite in San Gimignano; Quick Orientation Courtly Stylists A Respite in San Gimignano, a Tuscan Town of Beautiful Towers _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=110864541&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309 &VName=HNP&TS=1106382777&clientId=65882) By SARAH FERRELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 11, 1978. p. XX1 (2 pages) ... Pg. 21: Unable, for want of a kitchen, to justify the real thing, I order a "tartufo" for dessert, a thick disk of chocolate ice cream topped with a chocolate-coated cherry, the whole dipped in yet more chocolate. It is either utterly delicious or wretchedly excessive; I am unable to make up my mind. ... _Restaurants; Flavors from a Roman piazza. Tre Scalini _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=111008773&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD &RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106383257&clientId=65882) Mimi Sheraton. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 23, 1979. p. C16 (1 page): ... (Tre Scalini, 230 East 58th Street - ed.) The owners took their name from the same Tre Scalini Restaurant on the Piazza Navona in Rome (it means "three little steps," which appear at the entrance to make it all authentic).. ... The chocolate covered ice cream tartufo, a trademark at the original Roman restaurant, is just as well made here. ... _The Lighter Ice Creams: Now Less Is More; The Lighter Ice Creams and Ices: Now Less Is More _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=118609411&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106383701&client Id=65882) By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 21, 1982. p. C1 (2 pages) ... Pg. C6: But at the prices they are charging, they should also offer a truffle flavor - tartufo - as the superrich chocolate ice cream is called in Italy. ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Northwest Airlines Travel to Rome_ (http://www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers/rome/0064020003.html) ... Best Desserts: It's a bit of an exaggeration to say that people fly to Rome just to sample the tartufo at Tre Scalini, Piazza Navona 30 (tel. ... www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers/rome/0064020003.html - 52k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:79csmiJmgA8J:www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers /rome/0064020003.html+tartufo+and+tre+scalini&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers/rome/0064020003.html) ... _The Kiechle Family / Trips / Rome Christmas_ (http://www.kiechle.com/trips/romexmas/romexmas.htm) ... But the real reason to visit the Piazza Navona is, of course, the café and restaurant Tre Scalini, home of the world's best Tartufo (ice cream coated with ... www.kiechle.com/trips/romexmas/romexmas.htm - 33k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:bMqQg0j__roJ:www.kiechle.com/trips/romexmas/romexmas.htm+ tartufo+and+tre+scalini&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.kiechle.com/trip s/romexmas/romexmas.htm) ... _Rome : Restaurants : Dessert | Frommers.com_ (http://www.frommers.com/destinations/rome/0064022435.html) ... A close second is Tre Scalini, Piazza Navona 30 (tel. 06-687-9148;), which is celebrated for its tartufo. Gelato connoisseurs say ... www.frommers.com/destinations/rome/0064022435.html - 33k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:mjjX_mNPTDsJ:www.frommers.com/destinations/rome/00 64022435.html+tartufo+and+tre+scalini&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.f rommers.com/destinations/rome/0064022435.html) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- OT MISC. LIFE"S LITTLE IRONIES, OR, IT"S DAMN COLD OUT-I had a day off on Tuesday and went for a dental cleaning. On my last cleaning, a cavity was spotted. This time, I was told that I had cracked a molar way in the back of my mouth. And the dentist will have to cap it, but first, I have to see a periodontist, because I have to cut my gums, of course. In the dentist's waiting room was the latest issue of THE NEW YORKER. And I told the dentist that my "Big Apple" work was, after a mere 13 years, "The Talk of The Town." Without my name there, of course. And then you realize that if you added up all you've ever earned over 25 years, it still wouldn't pay for one tooth. So you go to work the next day, and the most important story in the world, according to the News and the Post, is that baseball player Mike Piazza is marrying a woman. And then you arrive at the parking ticket place, and you realize there's no heat. And the guard tells you you're lucky, you have the room with no windows, it's nice and comfy. And you should have been here yesterday, they worked from 8:30 a.m. to 7:30 p.m., and it was much colder then and everyone worked wearing coats, he says. And you say why doesn't anyone call 311, and they all say that nobody listens to us. And it's like this every damn day of your life. ... WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON FRIDAY?--Waverly Restaurant on Sixth Avenue and Waverly. It's been around Greenwich Village forever, but I'd never gone there. You get a lot of food (soup, salad, fish, potato, vegetable) for $15.95.- WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON THURSDAY?--Four restaurants! I had a slice of pizza at the four-week-old DeMarco's, at MacDougal and West Houston. It supposedly has great pizza and is a spin-off of a successful Brooklyn pizzeria. It's $2.50 a slice. Some nice cheese, but burnt crust that I skipped. I then had once slice at Pizza Booth and one slice at Pizza Box, opposite each other on Bleecker, again skipping the crust. Average stuff, for $2, and $2.25 a slice. I then had French onion soup at Dojo on West Fourth Street and Mercer, for $2.75. The best bargain of all. PAST WEEK: Our Place (Chinese) and Shanghai Pavilion, both on Third Avenue, between 77th and 82nd Streets. Excellent places. I'll probably go to the West Side for Teng's on West 55th Street (opposite La Bonne Soup) and Shanghai Palace on Ninth Avenue later this week. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 20:11:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:11:29 -0500 Subject: We is In-Reply-To: Message-ID: that's a good point. I have a friend, originally from Vermont, who *always* uses "ize" for "I was" and occasionally uses "weze" for "we were." -Wilson Gray On Jan 22, 2005, at 4:51 AM, Margaret Lee wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Margaret Lee > Subject: Re: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I think "We was" is much more typical. What is the context of the > African American woman's use of "we is"? Does it replace the > traditional zero copula construction? Any example sentences? > > Wilson Gray wrote:On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, > James A. Landau wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau" >> Subject: We is >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American >> woman >> who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most >> lightly-AAVE-flavored >> which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" >> but so do a >> lot of Anglos). >> >> Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of >> this >> particular speaker? >> >> - Jim Landau >> > > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any > circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. > However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" > wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say > that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a > speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. > > BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a > Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a > little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was > something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? > > -Wilson Gray > > > > Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. > Professor of English & Linguistics > and University Editor > Department of English > Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 > 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) > margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jan 22 20:21:23 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:21:23 -0500 Subject: Tartufo (1955) Message-ID: For what it's worth, tartufo is in Canadian Oxford. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 20:28:37 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:28:37 EST Subject: Tartufo (1955) Message-ID: Ah, I looked around the house here and found this book. The 1955 citation in English won't be too bad. ... ... A COOK'S TOUR OF ROME: THE BEST ROMAN FOOD AND WHERE TO FIND IT by Doris Muscatine New York: Charles Scribner's Sons 1964 ... Pg. 310 (TRE SCALINI): His father began operating the restaurant here in 1932, joined later by his sons. The current chef has been with the family for over a dozen years. His specialties are two: cannelloni and bauletto )the stuffed veal recipe below). The bar is famous for an ice cream confection that the Ciampinis invented, according to Luigi, and you can have it for dessert in the restaurant. it is the gelato tartufo, rich chocolate ice cream with a surprise cherry in the middle, riddled generously with solid chocolate slivers, and topped off gloriously with a fluff of whipped cream. It is perhaps wise, if you plan to finish with this, to start with something like ham and melon instead of cannelloni. ... ... ... (I love chocolate, but "tartfuo" is decadent even for me!--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 20:48:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:48:42 EST Subject: Getaway Game Message-ID: THE NBA''s Atlantic Division continues to be exciting, with all the teams below .500 and the NY Knicks coach the first to be be gone. ... The last place New Jersey Nets beat first place Boston Celtics last night, Four games separates all the teams. The Nets leave for a tough five day road trip, with a Sunday game in Phoenix. ... "We call this the 'getaway game.'" said commentator and former player Kelly Tripucka. "You always want to get away with a win." ... Is "getaway game" from basketball or baseball? Is it the last home game before a road trip, or the last game on a road trip before returning home? ... (GOOGLE) ... _OrlandoSentinel.com: Magic Basketball_ (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... Spurs, now 18-5, would test his team's heart and toughness, considering some players refer to the last game of an arduous road trip as a "getaway game," as in ... www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/ magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic - 50k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tJpF4UufD-UJ:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagi c16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic+"getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604 dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... _Yahoo! Sports_ (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014) ... ``You always want to get the getaway game and take ... www.fansedge.com. 2. Los Angeles Clippers Fan Shops - Buy your favorite NBA basketball team merchandise here. ... sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014 - 28k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BUgyPOBW8rUJ:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014+ "getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=200 4013014) ... The significance of winning their last home game until Feb. 19 was not lost on the Clippers, who are 7-2 in home contests immediately preceding road trips. ``You always want to get the getaway game and take that positive feeling on the road with you,'' _Quentin Richardson_ (http://sports.yahoo.co m/nba/players/3417/) said. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 22 21:00:45 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:00:45 -0600 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) Message-ID: Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 21, 2005: > Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." > > Since then I've heard this many times. [...] > ********* This may be a blend: "...until it becomes second nature" + "until you know it like the back of your hand." Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 22 21:54:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:54:58 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:00 PM -0600 1/22/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 21, 2005: > >> Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second >>nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." >> >> Since then I've heard this many times. [...] >> > ********* > >This may be a blend: >"...until it becomes second nature" + "until you know it like the >back of your hand." > Is the latter clearly involved? I'd certainly think that besides the meaning of "second nature", the existence of "second-hand" is relevant. The sense of 'at one remove' is common to both, albeit in somewhat different ways: the standard term "second-hand" is glossed 'Not original or obtained from the original source' which seems not that distant in meaning from 'second nature': If you learn something second-hand and absorb it, it becomes second nature to you. "know...like the back of one's hand" may be involved, but I don't see it as necessary. Larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 22 22:14:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:14:05 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:54:58 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 3:00 PM -0600 1/22/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >>Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 21, 2005: >> >>> Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second >>>nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." >>> >>> Since then I've heard this many times. [...] >>> >> ********* >> >>This may be a blend: >>"...until it becomes second nature" + "until you know it like the >>back of your hand." >> >Is the latter clearly involved? I'd certainly think that besides the >meaning of "second nature", the existence of "second-hand" is >relevant. The sense of 'at one remove' is common to both, albeit in >somewhat different ways: the standard term "second-hand" is glossed >'Not original or obtained from the original source' which seems not >that distant in meaning from 'second nature': If you learn something >second-hand and absorb it, it becomes second nature to you. >"know...like the back of one's hand" may be involved, but I don't see >it as necessary. Perhaps this usage of "second-hand" is better understood as a shortened form of "second-hand nature". Google throws up dozens of examples... As we get older and cooking becomes second hand nature it's easy to forget all of the skills that it takes to cook. http://allrecipes.com/advice/coll/cooking/articles/123P1.asp Technique needs to be second hand nature. http://www.tennisexpress.com/Discount-Tennis-Shoesi.html As you gain experience teaching, you will find this becomes second-hand nature. http://www.teach-nology.com/forum/ showthread.php?t=288&page=1 At first counting calories may seem weird or out of place, but after a short while, it will become second hand nature to you. http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/fatlossdiet.htm "She tried it and it was like second hand nature to her," said Carol Miller, Allison's mother. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/062904_someone_fencing.html Once you get it setup and play with it for about an hour it'll be second hand nature. http://www.remotecentral.com/ureview/2.htm It's second hand nature now, but I was definitely a nervous beginner. http://justsmile.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t982.html In fact, it's second-hand nature to the Brisbane, Australia native. http://projects.jou.ufl.edu/ktrammell/ project1/ball/greenland2.htm In 2008 most of them will have it down and by 2012, it will be second-hand nature. http://blogs.salon.com/0001137/2003/07/01.html A lot of these players don't know NBA sets and personnel in a second-hand nature. That only comes with experience. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/askthewriter/cs-041202askkcjohnson,1,4906245.story?coll=cs-bulls-ask-headlines We wrote a novel together, a 22-page baseball novel in sixth grade. So it's kind of second-hand nature for us. http://www.moviehabit.com/essays/gpff_interviews.shtml She looks at non-places, rubble tips, shopping malls and overgrown concrete deserts, shows a second-hand nature human beings have to fit in, adapt to, and - survive in. http://www.kurzfilmtage.de/ikf/pages/festival/ index.php?id=540&lang_id=2&item_id=2928 Therefore, talking to student affairs offices is now second hand nature to me. http://www.unhmub.com/leadership/leadershaper_winter03.pdf As we submit ourselves to Him, surrender our wants/desires, and allow His desires to become our own, then God's will, will become second hand nature. http://www.fallennotforsaken.com/nickandbrittany/ 2004/11/here-is-my-qualifier-its-gods-will.html You just need to practice drawing hands from life and it will become *ahem* second hand nature. http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/ art/y/h/yhchang/carnelia.gif.html It's a very valuable project because these children are going to be adults soon and it's good to set good habits now, so they become second hand nature in life. http://www.yonet.co.uk/diary/rubbish.html Once you do a couple billion (exaggeration) of these you’ll get the hang of it, and, inshallah, it will become second hand nature to you. http://www.glimmermagazine.com/200402/ramadan.html --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 23:23:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:23:14 -0500 Subject: Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982) (FURY, 1936) Message-ID: NEW YORK POST RESEARCH: While in the Bronx Help Center on Friday, I brought up the topic of a storm. "You"ve been here a long time," I was told. "Have we ever closed?" Before I could answer, there was this: "When the electricity went out. We had a skeletal staff." That was last year, when there was a blackout and the subways weren't working. Parking tickets usually need computer databases for processing. Today, I went to the New York Public Library to do Fred Shapiro research. It was closed for the storm. So, I took a train to NYU, where I am now. There were subway announcements that no one could understand. (Thank goodness the fares are going up again.) I got to NYU a little after 5 p.m. There was a sign that most services would be closed at 5 p.m. -------------------------------------------------------------- EYE FOR AN EYE I checked NYU's database of AMERICAN FILM SCRIPTS ONLINE, but the movie GANHDI's script isn't there. FWIW, there's this: 3. Lang, Fritz; Cormack, Bartlett; Krasna,... . "Fury (1936)" [Page 38 | Paragraph | (SCENE) | Section | Table of Contents] over again. KATHERINE That doesn't matter. I'll never stop going over it as long as I live-- (She pauses a moment, fumbles with her bag, and then looks up at him quickly.) I don't want anything as blood-thirsty as an eye for an eye, or a life for a life, or whatever it is the law demands. I'll leave those details to you and Charlie and Tom. But part of that mob were women, Mr. Adams! And those men-- they have wives, some of them-- they have women who love them the way I loved Joe! I want those women to suffer. I 4. Lang, Fritz; Cormack, Bartlett; Krasna,... . "Fury (1936)" [Page 40 | Paragraph | (SCENE) | Section | Table of Contents] Voice says "innocent man," the scene dissolves to JOE'S HIDEOUT, where JOE is sitting hunched intently over a small, cheap radio, listening with a fixed grin of satisfaction. DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S VOICE The law is the only safeguard against "an eye for an eye," "a tooth for a tooth" and blind chaos! We again see the COURTROOM as the District Attorney concludes. DISTRICT ATTORNEY American democracy and its system of fair play for the rights of individuals under the law is on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results Bibliography Platoon (1987): Shooting script. Written by: Stone, Oliver, 1946-. Electronic Edition by Alexander Street Press, L.L. C., 2002.Copyright © 1986, Hemdale Film Corporation. Published edition used by permission of Oliver Stone.. Also published in Stone, Oliver, 1946-, Oliver Stone's Platoon & Salvador, New York, NY, Vintage Books, 1987. [Writer Information] [Bibliographic Details] [Character Information] Murder in the First (1995): Shooting script. Written by: Gordon, Dan. Electronic Edition by Alexander Street Press, L.L. C., 2002.Copyright © 1995, Warner Bros. Reproduced by permission of Dan Gordon.. [Writer Information] [Bibliographic Details] [Character Information] Fury (1936): Shooting script. Written by: Cormack, Bartlett, 1898-1942; Lang, Fritz, 1890-1976. Story by: Krasna, Norman, 1909-1984. Electronic Edition by Alexander Street Press, L.L. C., 2002.Copyright © Turner Entertainment Co. Reproduced by permission of Warner Bros. Consumer Products, a Division of Time Warner Entertainment Company, L.P.. Also published in Twenty Best Film Plays, Gassner, John; Nichols, Dudley, eds., New York, NY, Crown Publishers, 1943. [Writer Information] [Bibliographic Details] [Character Information] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 00:21:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:21:50 -0500 Subject: "History with Lightning" quote; "Big Apple" in Daily Mirror (Jan. 2005) Message-ID: "BIG APPLE" IN DAILY MIRROR The Big Apple whore hoax appeared just this week in London's Daily Mirror. It's enough to make you cry. Last year, I wrote to "Help Me Howard" of the Channel 11 News at Ten, and to the similar problem-solver on NY1. I said that this "Big Apple Whore Hoax" has to be firmly exposed, its creator publicly humiliated, and that it must finally be taken off the web. No one responded. Awright! Listen up everybody! Listen up, Daily News and New York Post! Listen up, television news directors! Not only did I solve "the Big Apple" thirteen years ago, and the origin of the "Yankees," and the origin of the baseball "fan," but...I made homosexual love to Mike Piazza! I MADE HOMOSEXUAL LOVE TO MIKE PIAZZA! (FACTIVA) Features QUESTION TIME 68 words 11 January 2005 Mirror 38 English (c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd Q WHY is New York called The Big Apple? D Moncaster, Chesterfield, Derbys A THE Dutch who first settled there planted a variety of apple they brought with them and the climate was so good it grew enormous fruit. John Smith, Northwich, Cheshire Features Dear Mirror: QUESTION TIME 69 words 12 January 2005 Mirror 38 English (c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd Q WHY is New York "the Big Apple"? D Moncaster, Chesterfield, Derbys A: JOHN Smith is wrong (Dear Mirror, Jan 11). In 1803 Evelyn de saint-Evremond fled France and opened a high-class bordello in New York. Her women were known as her "irresistible apples". Sam Maurice, Liverpool Letters Dear Mirror: Question Time 187 words 18 January 2005 Mirror 38 English (c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd Q WHY is New York called The Big Apple? D Moncaster Chesterfield, Derbys A FURTHER to the answers printed (Dear Mirror, January 11 & 12), some guide books suggest the moniker was first used in the 20s by John Fitzgerald, a racing reporter for the Morning Telegraph. Stablehands at a New Orleans racetrack apparently called the New York races "the Big Apple" because they offered the best reward. -------------------------------------------------------------- "HISTORY WITH LIGHTNING" QUOTE I'll try again tomorrow, if NYU decides to open. The quotation was used in Ken Burns' latest documentary just this past week about Jack Johnson. D. W. GRIFFITH: AN AMERICAN LIFE by Richard Schickel New York : Simon and Schuster 1984 Pg. 267: CHAPTER TEN "History with Lightning" Pg. 270: We do not know to whom Wilson addressed his famous two-sentence evaluation of the movie, but it passed quickly into general circulation, despite later attempts to disown it: "It is like writing history with Lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true."(5) Pg. 619: 5. Cripps, _Slow Fade to Black_, p. 52. This quotation, perhaps the most famous words ever spoken about a film, is accepted by this distinguished scholar, as by many of his predecessors. I accept it, too. Yet no one has been able to fulyl authenticate it. In print, so far as I can determine, its provenenace is based entirely on secondary sources. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 23 01:04:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:04:49 -0800 Subject: We is Message-ID: No news from here both are still common among blue-collar whites wherever I've been in the South. In fact, pretty universal for working folks who didn't go on to college. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: We is ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that's a good point. I have a friend, originally from Vermont, who *always* uses "ize" for "I was" and occasionally uses "weze" for "we were." -Wilson Gray On Jan 22, 2005, at 4:51 AM, Margaret Lee wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Margaret Lee > Subject: Re: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I think "We was" is much more typical. What is the context of the > African American woman's use of "we is"? Does it replace the > traditional zero copula construction? Any example sentences? > > Wilson Gray wrote:On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, > James A. Landau wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau" >> Subject: We is >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American >> woman >> who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most >> lightly-AAVE-flavored >> which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" >> but so do a >> lot of Anglos). >> >> Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of >> this >> particular speaker? >> >> - Jim Landau >> > > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any > circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. > However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" > wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say > that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a > speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. > > BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a > Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a > little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was > something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? > > -Wilson Gray > > > > Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. > Professor of English & Linguistics > and University Editor > Department of English > Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 > 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) > margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 23 01:30:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:30:57 -0800 Subject: Getaway Game Message-ID: To my mind, the "getaway game" in baseball is the final game of a road-trip series, esp. if the visitors have fared badly up to that point. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Getaway Game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE NBA''s Atlantic Division continues to be exciting, with all the teams below .500 and the NY Knicks coach the first to be be gone. ... The last place New Jersey Nets beat first place Boston Celtics last night, Four games separates all the teams. The Nets leave for a tough five day road trip, with a Sunday game in Phoenix. ... "We call this the 'getaway game.'" said commentator and former player Kelly Tripucka. "You always want to get away with a win." ... Is "getaway game" from basketball or baseball? Is it the last home game before a road trip, or the last game on a road trip before returning home? ... (GOOGLE) ... _OrlandoSentinel.com: Magic Basketball_ (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... Spurs, now 18-5, would test his team's heart and toughness, considering some players refer to the last game of an arduous road trip as a "getaway game," as in ... www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/ magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic - 50k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tJpF4UufD-UJ:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagi c16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic+"getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604 dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... _Yahoo! Sports_ (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014) ... ``You always want to get the getaway game and take ... www.fansedge.com. 2. Los Angeles Clippers Fan Shops - Buy your favorite NBA basketball team merchandise here. ... sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014 - 28k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BUgyPOBW8rUJ:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014+ "getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=200 4013014) ... The significance of winning their last home game until Feb. 19 was not lost on the Clippers, who are 7-2 in home contests immediately preceding road trips. ``You always want to get the getaway game and take that positive feeling on the road with you,'' _Quentin Richardson_ (http://sports.yahoo.co m/nba/players/3417/) said. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 02:03:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:03:01 -0500 Subject: Keyboard Quarterbacks (1992) Message-ID: ROLODEX RANGER: Grant Barrett is in this Sunday's "On Language" column by William Safire. Safire discusses "Rolodex Ranger," something I recently posted here. -------------------------------------------------------------- KEYBOARD QUARTERBACK KEYBOARD QUARTERBACK--16 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits KEYBOARD QUARTERBACKS--415 Google hits, 5 Google Groups hits Like "Monday morning quarterback," someone who second-guesses from the quiet of a keyboard (perhaps, while in pajamas, like a "pajama pundit"). Newsday (http://newsdaysports.blogspot.com) uses this a lot...There's a nice "Keyboard Quarterbacks" article about the "Halle Berry Syndrome," of athletes marrying up and performing down, but that doesn't seem to have caught on. (GOOGLE) Keyboard Quarterbacks: November 2004 ... indifference to human life. Hackett may think he's safe from the media, but no one is safe from the Keyboard Quarterbacks. We're equal ... newsdaysports.blogspot.com/ 2004_11_01_newsdaysports_archive.html - 82k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) massbike August 2002: Re: [massbike] What not to do, and what t ... It's easy to play keyboard quarterback and say, "they should be fixed or removed." But come time to actually do something, some of us need real information ... www.massbike.org/email/archive/200208/0262.html - 10k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Hey, HERE'S an IDEA!!!! Could all of the over-zealous keyboard quarterbacks out there please contain their convulsive fits and whining? It's bad enough ... rec.sport.football.pro - Oct 29 1992, 1:48 pm by d'may... at tier.key.edu - 3 messages - 3 authors From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 02:13:22 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:13:22 -0800 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" in Alice Message-ID: an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any light to shed on "exactually"? Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold M. Zwicky > Date: January 22, 2005 6:04:21 PM PST > To: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Re: [rec.arts.books.childrens] Re: Please ID this 1970's > Children's Book > > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 10:35 PM, you wrote: [forwarded message] >> From: lenona321 at aol.com (Lenona321) >> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.childrens >> Subject: Re: Please ID this 1970's Children's Book >> Date: 04 Jan 2005 17:08:52 GMT >> > ... >> “Let’s consider your age to begin with—how old are you?” asked the >> White Queen. >> >> “I’m seven and a half exactly,” said Alice. >> >> “You needn’t say ‘exactly’,” the Queen remarked: “I can believe it >> without that. Now I’ll give you something to believe. I’m just one >> hundred >> and one, five months and a day.” >> > ... >> (Oddly, some editions have the Queen saying "exactually." Can't >> imagine why - >> it doesn't strike me as typical Carrollian humor.) >> [Ann Burlingham] >> also: >> http://www.pseudodictionary.com/search.php?letter=e&browsestart=420 >> >> i like "exactually." people in Google examples seem to use it >> unconsciously. >> >> i must have an _annotated alice_ around here somewhere.... [AMZ] > curioser and curioser. the original Annotated Alice (1960) has > "exactually", but More Annotated Alice (1990) has "exactly". neither > has an annotation on this word. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 23 03:10:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:10:51 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:15 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different > pronounciation? > (I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun > "stink") Whether there's any distinction in meaning between "stink" and "stank" or not is dependent upon context, so that "stink" and "stank" don't have separate meanings. There's no automatic distinction. At least, there isn't in BE. Back in the '60's, hanging around the watercooIer, I mentioned "stinkfinger;" while chatting with white, Asian, and Latino colleagues (all male, needless to say). They didn't know what I was talking about, till I explained. Of course, they actually did know what I was talking about. They just weren't familiar with the term that I had used. But, if I'd been talking to blacks, they would have understood immediately, whether I'd said "stinkfinger" or "stankfang-uh," just as easily as you would have understood Mellencamp, whether he sang "Paint thuh muther pank" or "Paint the mother pink." -Wilson Gray > > I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music > videos, around > the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar > Melonhead) "Little > Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a > pink > house, but > it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh > muther pank." > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote >> from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not >> getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted >> in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to >> draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. >> But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in >> what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >> It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I >> once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to >> pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be >> distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you >> mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, >> in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it >> stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >> But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and >> "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just >> ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar >> about it at all. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >>> Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: The stink/The stank >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >>> cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, >> "You got the >>> stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about >> sixty years >>> since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, >> "everybody can >>> tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >>> >>> Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >>> Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go >> 'hayid. Put >>> yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put >> your mark (of >>> ownership, etc.) on it." >>> >>> In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >>> >>> So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >>> spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the >>> spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, >>> "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, >>> disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the >> word, the inside dope, the skinny," >>> leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other >>> cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul >> up," etc. >>> A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. >>> >>> IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >>> whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >>> >> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 23 03:14:03 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:14:03 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. Message-ID: beverly writ: (Compare 'oncet/twicet' and 'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) "An" is the older form, a destressed cousin whose fully-stressed form became "one". "A" before consonants shows a deletion. mark by hand at arisia, snowbound in boston www.arisia.org From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 23 03:31:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:31:06 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$61ceh2@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: What you say is historically true, Mark, but couldn't Bev's reanalysis be relevant for the contemporary language? [Bev, don't I ain't never did nothing for you.] -Wilson On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: drawring, etc. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > beverly writ: > > (Compare 'oncet/twicet' and > 'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) > > "An" is the older form, a destressed cousin whose fully-stressed form > became > "one". "A" before consonants shows a deletion. > > > mark by hand at arisia, snowbound in boston > www.arisia.org > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 07:09:19 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:09:19 EST Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) Message-ID: The FYI column in the City Section of the Sunday New York Times discusses an old, outdated term--"butter and egg man." ... This was not coined by the George S. Kaufman play of 1925. It is said to come from Texas Guinan in 1924. ... Guinan probably very definitely influenced the slang use of "butter and egg man," but the "butter and egg man" had been named that since at least the 1890s. ... Also, the second citation in the HDAS ("1925 in DA: A couple of big butter and egg men from Verona, New Jersey") should probably be 1926, not 1925. OED has 1926 for it. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _GENERAL BUSINESS TOPICS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=321915612&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11064620 97&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1895. p. 5 (1 page) ... The butter and egg men will also insist on the return of their crates and cases, or will charge for the same. ... _Display Ad 4 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=19&did=386538601&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106462 319&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 1, 1911. p. 6 (1 page) ... Maybe you didn't look in the basement before you leased your flat. Maybe you don't know or care anything about this heating subject. It means more to you than your butter and egg man--a blamed sight more. (...) KEWANEE BOILER COMPANY ... _BUTTER AND EGG MEN WILL QUIT SOUTH WATER STEET; BIG MARKET TO BE MOVED TO THE NORTH SIDE Fruit and Vegetable Men May Locate on a Pier. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=42&did=370222372&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106462388&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 21, 1919. p. A13 (1 page) ... _FIGHT H. C. L.; Butter and Egg Men, Who Met Here to Try to Cut Prices. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=43&did=370295012&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VI nst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106462388&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 4, 1919. p. 6 (1 page) ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lincoln Evening News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2vlfAIE1tu5eysOEjyS5uuLHrKB7KkA88kIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, September 11, 1891 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...evanog. Rlcbardeotat the BUTTER AND EGG MAN from Eagle, attempted to cross.....ind Injured about the legs, while his BUTTER jars AND their contents were.. ... ... _Bismarck Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2kq7kgeRNpFFVdv51sRxqTd+C/D8AbE0ug==) Friday, April 08, 1892 _Bismarck,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bismarck+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _North Dakota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north_dakota+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...to attend the national the BUTTER AND EGG MAN i meetmc of railroad.....homes. B. ureaeer. orders at WANTED- A MAN of push AND energy to a branch.. ... ... _Iowa Citizen _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2gFwP6hU2tCe/5734+KWc+bJAadI/QMUOUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 01, 1892 _Iowa City,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:iowa_city+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...Gafford traveled for his a BUTTER-AND-EGG MAN at MAN- ning. His parents are.....March Abner N. a young traveling MAN from shot AND killed Mabel Stevens.. ... ... _Lima Times Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2ur2+NtA79WmuUFZbtE3ddzJP1nJbieLS0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, December 05, 1894 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...them to memory. The BUTTER AND EGG MAN is rarely ever known in a.....known in our town for years. It is a MAN affairs who is spoken of AND.. ...... ... ... (OED) butter-and-egg man U.S. slang, a wealthy, unsophisticated man who spends money freely; 1776 _WITHERING_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#withering) Bot. Arrangem. (1796) III. 552 Toadflax, Snap dragon, *Butter and Eggs. 1880 _JEFFERIES_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-j.html#jefferies) Gt. Estate 83 In shady woodlands the toadflax or butter-and-eggs is often pale,a sulphur colour. 1926 _H. C. WITWER_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#h-c-witwer) Roughly Speaking 229 A couple of big *butter and egg men from Verona, New Jersey. 1927 Daily Express 31 Aug. 8/7 ‘Butter and egg man ’ is an American slang expression practically equal to our term ‘greenhorn’ , that is, a man of money who spends lavishly and is an easy prey of the gold-digger and other unscrupulous persons. 1948 Antioch Rev. Spring 105 The ‘ butter-and-egg’ man who startles the foreign lecturer with blunt questions. ... ... (NYPL CATNYP) Title Roughly speaking, by H.C. Witwer. Imprint New York, London, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1926. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Sun Jan 23 07:27:22 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:27:22 +0000 Subject: Bean Curd Mad In-Reply-To: <200501221037.j0MAblJQ021969@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: To-Fou anyone? Don't know whether Barry Popik has the following spelling, so here goes: "Ma Po Tou-fu - This nationally well-known dish was invented in the reign of Emperor Tung Chi (1862-75) of the Manchu Dynasty by the wife of one Chen Ling-fu, a well known chef in Chengtu. The lady had a badly pock-marked face; hence the name, Tou-fu of the Pock-marked Wife." - Kenneth Lo, 'Chinese Provincial Cooking', Elm Tree/Hamish Hamilton, London, 1979 (Sphere Books, London, 1981, 255) Where did Neil Crawford eat last night? Chez nous: fresh egg tagliatelle with home-made red pepper and mushroom sauce. Email me if you'd like the pasta sauce recipe. neil at typog.co.uk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 07:51:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:51:00 EST Subject: "Butter and Egg Man"--from Muriel Hanford? Message-ID: More butter-and-eggs. Maybe I'll look up Muriel Hanford's file in the NYPL's performing arts library. ... YOU correct the Sunday New York Times FYI column. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Hammond Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2ndGMeAapqD+PVDMpDxLZSM02LEj41a9ukIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, February 28, 1936 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+guinan+and+butter+and+egg) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+guinan+and+butter+and+egg) ...50, who originated the "big BUTTER AND EGG man" phrase which the late Tex.....Sioux City transport magnate, her "BUTTER AND EGG man." "I decided I wanted.. Pg. 4, col. 1: _PEACOCK GIRL_ _OF BROADWAY_ _GETS DOMESTIC_ ... _Muriel Window Hanford, Who_ _Jarred Metropolises, Liv-_ _ing in Iowa_ ... [INTERNATIONA NEWS SERVICE} ARNOLD PARK, Ia., Feb. 28.--Shades of Flo Ziegfeld and Tex Guinan--Muriel Window Hanford has settled down! ... Her whirlwind start and night club career which jarred and pleased Paris, New York, Hollywood--even Siouz City, Ia.--has gone definitely domestic in the more or less rustic scenes of this Iowa lake region. (...) To the community, she may become just Mrs. Howard G. Turnley, housewife and home maker. That is her new husband's name, and he lives at Mankato, Minn. ... To her old friends, it is certaiin she will remain Muriel Hanford, the girl, now 40 or 50, who originated the "big butter and egg man" phrase which the late Tex Guinan popularized, and whose Siouz City night club bore the slogan, "You Can't Beat Fun." ... "Yes, we were married two years ago, in Old Mexico," she said when questioned about Turnley. Her previous husbands were Emmet Keane, actor, and Arthur Hanford, Siouz City transport magnate, her "butter and egg man." ... ... ... (ANCESTRY) ... Name: Muriel Turnley SSN: 482-38-5403 Last Residence: 33062 Pompano Beach, Broward, Florida, United States of America Born: 16 Feb 1892 Died: Aug 1965 State (Year) SSN issued: Iowa (1951-1952 ) From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Sun Jan 23 08:03:55 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:03:55 +0000 Subject: Nowt so queer... In-Reply-To: <200501230727.j0N7RAO0016609@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: >From my file of homosexual qualifiers: queer as a cat fart queer as a clockwork orange queer as a coot queer as a curly-headed monkey queer as a flute queer as a football bat queer as a four-leaf shamrock queer as a green horse queer as a nine-bob note queer as a nine-dollar bill queer as a set of purple teeth queer as a six pound note queer as a square donut queer as a square egg queer as a three-dollar bill queer as a three-speed walking stick queer as a turnip queer as a two-bob clock queer as a two quid note queer as crystal queer as fuck queer as green horses Any additional citations (with source) welcome. Neil Crawford neil at typog.co.uk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 08:23:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 03:23:54 EST Subject: "Butter and Egg Man"--from Muriel Hanford? (of "Muriel Cigar") Message-ID: "Sioux" City. Sorry for typo...Also, who knew this about the Muriel Cigar? It's nowhere on the web...The FYI column begins with "Hell's Hundred Acres." That's on my web site. ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/nyregion/thecity/23fyi.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/nyregion/thecity/23fyi.html) Dairy and Fleece Q. At the theater the other day, I overheard a reference to a "butter and egg man," which I gather means an out-of-town investor waiting to be fleeced. But why butter and eggs? A. The phrase gave its name to a famous play, but that's not how it originated. "The Butter and Egg Man," the great collaborator George S. Kaufman's only venture as a solo playwright, told a story about a naïve young man from Ohio who learns lessons about the realities of theater finance from some sharpies. The sendup of Broadway hit Broadway in 1925, and was most recently revived Off Broadway in 2002. But Kaufman didn't originate the term. That honor goes to Texas Guinan, the brassy lady who ran a series of nightclubs in the Roaring Twenties that brought together flappers, society figures and gangsters when they weren't being raided by the police. Her most famous contribution to the American idiom was her greeting "Hello, sucker." Her second-most-famous idiom came about this way, according to The Home Book of American Quotations: A generous stranger at her club in 1924 announced he was picking up all the checks in the house, threw $50 bills to the female entertainers, and, when asked his name, said only that he was in "the dairy produce business." Miss Guinan responded by introducing him to the crowd as "the big butter and egg man." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ... _Holland Evening Sentinel _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2l/4j8Trxob5DUgctSR0XKdOM+OnbmZKZkIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, August 30, 1965 _Holland,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:holland+peacock+girl+and+muriel) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+peacock+girl+and+muriel) ...died i Sunday at the age of 74. The PEACOCK GIRL in the 1913 Ziegfield.....Will Rogers AND Sir Harry Lauder. The MURIEL Cigar was named i in her honor.. ... Pg.8, col. 7: _Former Vaudeville_ _Star Dies at Age 74_ POMPANO BEACH, Fla. (UPI)--Mrs. Muriel Window Turnley, who introduced the world to such songs as "'Til We Meet Again" and "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles," died Sunday at the age of 74. ... The Peacock Girl in the 1913 Ziegfield Follies SHow, she played opposite such big names as Al Jolson, Will Rogers and Sir Harry Lauder. ... The Muriel Cigar was named in her honor. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 23 13:59:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:59:05 -0500 Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:09:19 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >The FYI column in the City Section of the Sunday New York Times discusses >an old, outdated term--"butter and egg man." >... >This was not coined by the George S. Kaufman play of 1925. It is said to >come from Texas Guinan in 1924. >... >Guinan probably very definitely influenced the slang use of "butter and egg >man," but the "butter and egg man" had been named that since at least the >1890s. >... >Also, the second citation in the HDAS ("1925 in DA: A couple of big butter >and egg men from Verona, New Jersey") should probably be 1926, not 1925. >OED has 1926 for it. I wasn't familiar with the George Kaufman play, but I knew the Louis Armstrong/May Alix song from 1926. I always assumed it was roughly equivalent to "sugar daddy"... http://www.heptune.com/bigbutte.html Heptune presents: Big Butter and Egg Man (Venables/Armstrong) Transcribed from vocals by Louis Armstrong and May Alix, recorded 11/16/26, >From Louis Armstrong, Hot Fives & Hot Sevens, the 25 Greatest; Living Era AJA 5171. May Alix: I want my butter and egg man, >From 'way out in the west. 'Cause I'm getting tired of working all day; I want somebody who wants me to play; Pretty clothes have never been mine, But if my dream comes true, The sun is going to shine; 'Cause I want my butter and egg man; Don't some great big butter and egg man want me? Louis Armstrong: Here, here, Now, mama, I'm your big butter and egg man! But I'm different, honey, 'Cause I'm from 'way down in the south! Now listen, baby, I'll buy you all the pretty things that you think you need As long as I can keep this cornet up to my mouth; Oh, I'll play you a little minor in G, Now, if you'll stay and sit there, baby, I'll even hit high C! 'Cause I'm your big butter and egg man, Come here, baby, kiss me, Big butter and egg man from 'way down south! May Alix: Pretty clothes have never been mine, But if my dream comes true, Something's going to change! --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 23 15:34:11 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:34:11 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) In-Reply-To: <23001.24.225.205.195.1106432045.squirrel@24.225.205.195> Message-ID: At 5:14 PM -0500 1/22/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Perhaps this usage of "second-hand" is better understood as a shortened >form of "second-hand nature". Google throws up dozens of examples... > > >As we get older and cooking becomes second hand nature it's easy to forget >all of the skills that it takes to cook. >http://allrecipes.com/advice/coll/cooking/articles/123P1.asp >... Interesting--I've never heard one of these to my knowledge but I suspect I have heard a number of instances of the "second-hand" form with the "second nature" meaning. There are, of course, several cases of adjustments in either form or meaning brought about by the proximity of two originally unrelated expressions that seem to vie for the same space in the mental lexicon. These can begin as eggcorns, but once they catch on the language has changed. Examples that have been commented on (by Bolinger and others) are daylight savings time (orig. "daylight saving time", but influenced by "savings bank" and such) safety deposit box (orig. "safe deposit", but influenced by "safety belt") "second-hand"/"second nature" isn't quite the same phenomenon, but I think a second cousin larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 15:38:07 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:38:07 EST Subject: Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982) (FURY, 1936) Message-ID: In a message dated Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:23:14 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM quoted: > While in the Bronx Help Center on Friday, I brought up the topic of a storm. > "You"ve been here a long time," I was told. "Have we ever closed?" Before I > could answer, there was this: "When the electricity went out. We had a > skeletal staff." MWCD10 has "skeletal" as meaning "...resembling a skeleton" so presumably the staff was stranded for days with no food and when rescued were down to skin and bones. - Jim Landau From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 23 15:55:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:55:59 -0800 Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) Message-ID: A "butter and egg man" literally means a farmer who raises cows and chickens. Texas Guinan's usage was intentionally derisive, usually as "a big butter and egg man," i.e., an ignorant farmer or other non-urban rube visiting the bag bad city for the first time. This nuance may not come through in HDAS I, done when I was ten years younger and dumber. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The FYI column in the City Section of the Sunday New York Times discusses a= n=20 old, outdated term--"butter and egg man." ... This was not coined by the George S. Kaufman play of 1925. It is said to =20 come from Texas Guinan in 1924. ... Guinan probably very definitely influenced the slang use of "butter and egg=20= =20 man," but the "butter and egg man" had been named that since at least the =20 1890s. ... Also, the second citation in the HDAS ("1925 in DA: A couple of big butter =20 and egg men from Verona, New Jersey") should probably be 1926, not 1925. OED= =20 has 1926 for it. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _GENERAL BUSINESS TOPICS._=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D0&did=3D321915612&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D11064620 97&clientId=3D65882)=20 Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1895. p= .=20 5 (1 page)=20 ... The butter and egg men will also insist on the return of their crates and =20 cases, or will charge for the same. ... _Display Ad 4 -- No Title_=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D19&did=3D386538601&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1106462 319&clientId=3D65882)=20 Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 1, 1911. p. 6 (1 page= )=20 ... Maybe you didn't look in the basement before you leased your flat. Maybe yo= u=20 don't know or care anything about this heating subject. It means more to you= =20 than your butter and egg man--a blamed sight more. (...) KEWANEE BOILER COMPANY ... _BUTTER AND EGG MEN WILL QUIT SOUTH WATER STEET; BIG MARKET TO BE MOVED TO=20 THE NORTH SIDE Fruit and Vegetable Men May Locate on a Pier. _=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D42&did=3D370222372&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VTyp e=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1106462388&clientId=3D65882)=20 Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 21, 1919. p. A13 (1=20 page)=20 ... _FIGHT H. C. L.; Butter and Egg Men, Who Met Here to Try to Cut Prices. _=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D43&did=3D370295012&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VI nst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1106462388&clientId=3D6588= 2)=20 Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 4, 1919. p. 6 (1 page= )=20 ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lincoln Evening News _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3DW0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2vlfA= IE1tu5eysOEjyS5uuLHrKB7KkA88kIF+CsZYmrz) Friday,=20 September 11, 1891 _Lincoln,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:lincoln+butter+an= d+egg+man+AND) _Nebraska_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:nebraska+butter+= and+egg+man+AND) =20 ...evanog. Rlcbardeotat the BUTTER AND EGG MAN from Eagle, attempted to =20 cross.....ind Injured about the legs, while his BUTTER jars AND their conte= nts=20 were.. ... ... _Bismarck Daily Tribune _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3DwSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2kq7k= geRNpFFVdv51sRxqTd+C/D8AbE0ug=3D=3D) Friday, April=20 08, 1892 _Bismarck,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:bismarck+butter+a= nd+egg+man+AND) _North Dakota_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:north_dakota+but= ter+and+egg+man+AND) =20 ...to attend the national the BUTTER AND EGG MAN i meetmc of =20 railroad.....homes. B. ureaeer. orders at WANTED- A MAN of push AND energy=20= to a branch.. ... ... _Iowa Citizen _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3D/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2gFwP= 6hU2tCe/5734+KWc+bJAadI/QMUOUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 01,=20 1892 _Iowa City,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:iowa_city+butter+= and+egg+man+AND) _Iowa_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:iowa+butter+and+= egg+man+AND) =20 ...Gafford traveled for his a BUTTER-AND-EGG MAN at MAN- ning. His parents= =20 are.....March Abner N. a young traveling MAN from shot AND killed Mabel=20 Stevens.. ... ... _Lima Times Democrat _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3D9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2ur2+= NtA79WmuUFZbtE3ddzJP1nJbieLS0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday,=20 December 05, 1894 _Lima,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:lima+butter+and+e= gg+man+AND) _Ohio_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:ohio+butter+and+= egg+man+AND) ...them to memory. =20 The BUTTER AND EGG MAN is rarely ever known in a.....known in our town for=20 years. It is a MAN affairs who is spoken of AND.. ...... ... ... (OED) butter-and-egg man U.S. slang, a wealthy, unsophisticated man who spends=20 money freely; 1776 _WITHERING_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#withering= )=20 Bot. Arrangem. (1796) III. 552 Toadflax, Snap dragon, *Butter and Eggs.=20 1880 _JEFFERIES_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-j.html#jefferies)=20= Gt.=20 Estate 83 In shady woodlands the toadflax or butter-and-eggs is often=20 pale,a sulphur colour. 1926 _H. C. WITWER_=20 (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#h-c-witwer) Roughly Speak= ing 229 A couple of big *butter and egg=20 men from Verona, New Jersey. 1927 Daily Express 31 Aug. 8/7 =E2=80=98Butter=20= and egg man =E2=80=99 is an American slang expression practically equal to our term =20= =E2=80=98greenhorn=E2=80=99 , that is, a man of money who spends lavishly and is an easy prey of the=20 gold-digger and other unscrupulous persons. 1948 Antioch Rev. Spring 105 The= =E2=80=98 butter-and-egg=E2=80=99 man who startles the foreign lecturer with blunt qu= estions. =20 ... ... (NYPL CATNYP) Title Roughly speaking, by H.C. Witwer. Imprint New York, London, G.P.= =20 Putnam's Sons, 1926. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Jan 23 16:56:08 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:56:08 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. In-Reply-To: <3721C8E0-6CEF-11D9-95FC-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: In first language acquisition (and early second also), children typically use unmarked 'a' in all contexts, adding liaison /n/ before vowels quite late (4 or 5, if memory serves away from my books). In some "subdialects" (I don't like the word, but OK for now) the lack of liaison may persist throughout adulthood, esp. in informal contexts (my Baltimorean ex-husband, a comp. lit scholar, was a good example of this). Witness 'a apple', 'a egg', 'a angel', etc. I have a Peanuts cartoon in which Charlie Brown tries to instruct Sally in its use, after which she writes in a letter to someone or other, "Dear Sir, You are an ucklehead." And of course, there's 'a napron' --> 'an apron' and Shakespeare's 'nuncle' (a reverse reanalysis), both of which suggest a psycholinguistic awareness of the "a to an before vowels" rule dating at least to Early Modern English. Ditto for 'my to mine', 'thy to thine', etc.--even my American grad students are amazed when they realize that this is what causes the pronoun variation in the Lord's Prayer, not to mention Shakespeare. Beverly Flanigan At 10:31 PM 1/22/2005 -0500, you wrote: >What you say is historically true, Mark, but couldn't Bev's reanalysis >be relevant for the contemporary language? [Bev, don't say I ain't never >did nothing for you.] > >-Wilson > >On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >>Subject: drawring, etc. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>beverly writ: >> >>(Compare 'oncet/twicet' and >>'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) >> >>"An" is the older form, a destressed cousin whose fully-stressed form >>became >>"one". "A" before consonants shows a deletion. >> >> >>mark by hand at arisia, snowbound in boston >>www.arisia.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 23 17:56:34 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:56:34 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" in Alice In-Reply-To: <5B799132-6CE4-11D9-8888-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: My copy of Alice (New York; The Macmillan Company; 1922) has: ' "You nedn't say 'exactually,' " the Queen remarked. ' [p. 100] The printing history on the verso of the title page suggests that this text was taken from the "New edition September 1906." The printing is credited to the Norwood Press, Berwick & Smith Co, Norwood, Mass., but I think the plates were probably those of the earlier Macmillan (London) printing. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~ >an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any >light to shed on "exactually"? > >Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Arnold M. Zwicky >> Date: January 22, 2005 6:04:21 PM PST >> To: Ann Burlingham >> Subject: Re: [rec.arts.books.childrens] Re: Please ID this 1970's >> Children's Book >> >> >> On Jan 21, 2005, at 10:35 PM, you wrote: > >[forwarded message] > >>> From: lenona321 at aol.com (Lenona321) >>> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.childrens >>> Subject: Re: Please ID this 1970's Children's Book >>> Date: 04 Jan 2005 17:08:52 GMT >>> >> ... >>> ìLetís consider your age to begin withóhow old are you?î asked the >>> White Queen. >>> >>> ìIím seven and a half exactly,î said Alice. >>> >>> ìYou neednít say ëexactlyí,î the Queen remarked: ìI can believe it >>> without that. Now Iíll give you something to believe. Iím just one >>> hundred >>> and one, five months and a day.î >>> >> ... >>> (Oddly, some editions have the Queen saying "exactually." Can't >>> imagine why - >>> it doesn't strike me as typical Carrollian humor.) >>> > >[Ann Burlingham] > >>> also: >>> http://www.pseudodictionary.com/search.php?letter=e&browsestart=420 >>> >>> i like "exactually." people in Google examples seem to use it >>> unconsciously. >>> >>> i must have an _annotated alice_ around here somewhere.... > >[AMZ] > >> curioser and curioser. the original Annotated Alice (1960) has >> "exactually", but More Annotated Alice (1990) has "exactly". neither >> has an annotation on this word. A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:03:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:03:18 -0800 Subject: "bait and switch" Message-ID: Buried in the flap about SpongeBob SquarePants, which hit the papers on Thursday (1/20/05), is the following from Paul Batura, assistant to James C. Dobson at Focus on the Family: "We see the video as an insidious means by which the organization [the We Are Family Foundation] is manipulating and potentially brainwashing kids. It's a classic bait and switch." (from the NYT, p. A12) Most of the flap has concerned Dobson's claim that the music video, starring cartoon characters and created to teach elementary school children about multiculturalism, promotes homosexuality. According to Nile Rodgers, the founder of the foundation, nothing in the video or its accompanying materials refers to sexual orientation, nor does the video mention the "tolerance pledge" (borrowed from the Southern Poverty Law Center) that appears on the foundation's web site; the pledge counsels tolerance for "sexual identity", among a variety of other things. The Focus on the Family position seems to be that the video is "pro-homosexual" (Dobson's word) because it will lead its young viewers to the website and so to a mention of respect for "sexual identity" (not further explained), a mention that transparently (to Dobson's way of thinking) furthers the homosexual agenda; or perhaps that counseling tolerance in general terms is covert advocacy of homosexuality and therefore reprehensible. But that dubious reasoning isn't what I'm interested in here. My interest is in the expression "bait and switch" as applied the association between the video and the homosexual agenda. This is a *big* extension of the meaning of the expression. Your classic bait and switch is, in the words of AHD4, "a sales tactic in which a bargain-priced item is used to attract customers who are then encouraged to purchase a more expensive similar item." Batura's use preserves the component of deception, the assertion that one thing is offered (but not specifically for sale) and another provided (but in addition to, rather than instead of, the first), and the presupposition that the thing provided is in some way unsatisfactory (but morally offensive rather than expensive). You can get from AHD4 to Batura, but it's a long trip. I'd guess that Batura settled on "bait and switch" as a vivid alternative to "deception" or "hidden agenda", without thinking through the details. Are there other occurrences of such extended uses of this expression? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:15:14 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0600 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: > ~~~~~~~~ > >an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any > >light to shed on "exactually"? > > ************ Just an obvious comment; In "exactly"and "actually" we see partial phonetic overlap ("act" and "-ly" in both). So "actually" was partially grafted onto "exactly", producing "exactually." In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah song contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see partial phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" was grafted onto "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with the loss of the -"tory" ("satisfactory"). Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. Gerald Cohen From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jan 23 19:42:00 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:42:00 -0500 Subject: ANS Presentations in SF Chronicle Message-ID: The highly interesting "Queer Names of Stage, Screen and Fiction" presentations of the American Names Society at the recent conference in Oakland are covered today in the San Francisco Chronicle: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/23/LVGT7ASCMR1.DTL Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:44:53 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:44:53 -0800 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted Message-ID: it started with a story in the Economist ("Corpus colossal") about linguists using the world wide web as a source of data, with favorable mention of the Language Log: http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3576374 mark liberman duly reported this in LL: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001818.html and then, this morning, LL was slashdotted. piles of comments in no time at all, most of them just "blather" (to quote mark liberman in e-mail): http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/01/23/0311209.shtml geoff pullum has already chosen to reply to one of the comments: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001829.html this was from someone posting as "phaln": ----- It came to me that the English language was in deep trouble when people started saying "rotfl" and "lol" in person. ----- pullum sensibly notes that there is absolutely no need for alarm here. my own favorite of the comments i've read so far -- my enthusiasm for reading them waned rapidly -- is one from "Dracos", which begins: ----- I think that for most of the 20th century, English, and most languages in the industrialized world, was largely static, dominated by the written word which was dominated by proper grammar. Since WWII, popular culture and faster communications have increasingly exposed us to local vernaculars, mostly through radio and television. The written word lagged behind in its cultural evolution. ----- an interesting reading of history. i also like that first sentence, which illustrates the trouble that parentheticals can cause for subject-verb agreement; neither "was" nor "were" is really satisfactory, and the sentence should have been reshaped to avoid the problem. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:59:00 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:59:00 -0800 Subject: ANS Presentations in SF Chronicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > The highly interesting "Queer Names of Stage, Screen and Fiction" > presentations of the American Names Society at the recent conference in > Oakland are covered today in the San Francisco Chronicle... good coverage. but just to be picky, it's American Name Society (singular Name). the Chron story has it wrong, and grant has reproduced this small error. arnold, knowing how hard it is to remember that it's the Berkeley Linguistics Society, but the Chicago Linguistic Society (and the Linguistic Society of America) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 20:19:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:19:45 EST Subject: "Here's Johnny!" (1962) (Johnny Carson dies) Message-ID: Former late night king Johnny Carson has died. ... The famous introduction to the tonight show was, "And now, heeere's Johnny!" This was voiced by Ed McMahon. "Here's Johnny!" was further popularized by a creepy Jack Nicholson in the Stephen King-based movie, THE SHINING (1980), by director Stanley Kubrick. ... Fred Shapiro should include the phrase. Johnny Carson trademarked it, but several "johnny" manufacturers also tried to trademark it. The case eventually went to court and Johnny Carson won. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Other 37 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=487677072&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106510963&c lientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 3, 1965. p. D9 (1 page) ... HERE--Johnny Carson hosts Tonight Show from Burbank at 11:15 p.m. ... _Carson Readies 'Fun Romp'_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=496926552&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106510 706&clientId=65882) JOHN L SCOTT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 19, 1966. p. C9 (1 page) ... Once a year Johnny Carson deserts his Tonight show on TV for a sojourn at Hotel Sahara in Las Vegas. So this evening the familiar introduction, "And now, here's Johnny," will come piping out of Congo Room speakers as the comedian begins what he terms his "midsummer fun romp." ... ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark HEEERE'S JOHNNY! Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 041. US 107. G & S: ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES-NAMELY, THE RENDERING OF ENTERTAINMENT TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC BY WAY OF PERSONAL PERFORMANCES AT SHOWS SUCH AS BY MONOLOGUES, COMEDY ROUTINES AND THE HOSTING OF GUEST APPEARANCES OF OTHERS. FIRST USE: 19621001. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19621001 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73186474 Filing Date September 21, 1978 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition December 11, 1979 Registration Number 1149180 Registration Date March 24, 1981 Owner (REGISTRANT) CARSON, JOHN W. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 270 N. CANON DR. BEVERLY HILLS CALIFORNIA 94708 Attorney of Record BUSHKIN, GAIMS, GAINES & JONAS Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date March 30, 2002 ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark HERE'S JOHNNY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 011. US 013. G & S: PORTABLE CHEMICAL TOILETS. FIRST USE: 19760511. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19760511 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73091178 Filing Date June 21, 1976 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition December 28, 1976 Owner (APPLICANT) HERE'S JOHNNY PORTABLE TOILETS, INC. CORPORATION MICHIGAN 26750 PARK COURT MADISON HEIGHTS MICHIGAN 48071 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 25, 1985 ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark HERE'S JOHNNY Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: Wearing Apparel-Namely, Suits, Sport Coats, Jackets, Slacks, Vests, Belts, Tuxedos, Sweaters, Shirts, All Weather Coats, Headwear, Neckwear, Sleepwear, Swimwear, Scarves, Ascots, Underwear, Hosiery and Shoes. FIRST USE: 19710200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19710200 (CANCELLED) IC 003. US 051 052. G & S: Cologne, Aftershave Lotion, All Weather Skin Protective Lotion and Shower Soap. FIRST USE: 19771007. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19771007 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73188317 Filing Date October 5, 1978 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition February 21, 1984 Registration Number 1277658 Registration Date May 15, 1984 Owner (REGISTRANT) Johnny Carson Apparel, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE P.O. Box 1121 Buffalo NEW YORK 14240 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Robert M. Newbury Prior Registrations 0188317;0903927;1140161 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date October 23, 1990 ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark JOHNNY'S HERE! Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RENTING AND PUMPING PORTABLE TOILETS. FIRST USE: 19840515. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19840515 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 73505643 Filing Date October 26, 1984 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition October 22, 1985 Registration Number 1378554 Registration Date January 14, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) JOHNNY'S HERE, INC. CORPORATION MICHIGAN 50575 RYAN ROAD UTICA MICHIGAN 48087 Attorney of Record ALLEN M. KRASS Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 4, 1992 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 20:21:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:21:04 EST Subject: "Here's Johnny!" (1962) (Johnny Carson dies) Message-ID: Forgot the joke! Johnny Carson was once asked what he'd like written on his tombstone... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 23 20:39:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:39:08 -0500 Subject: "bait and switch" In-Reply-To: <711F4581-6D71-11D9-8888-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0800 1/23/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >... >I'd guess that Batura settled on "bait and switch" as a vivid >alternative to "deception" or "hidden agenda", without thinking through >the details. Are there other occurrences of such extended uses of this >expression? > That is curious. In recent political contexts, I've more often come across "bait and switch" in op-ed pieces from the left, or at least from those critical of the current administration and its policies. Economist Paul Krugman in particular seems very font of this turn, as applied especially (but not only) to the handling of Social Security and tax cuts. Nexis turns up 11 hits of "bait and switch" (not necessarily requiring the propinquity of an actual conjoined NP, as the first example shows) from Krugman op-ed columns or, in one case, a piece by him for the Magazine. Some random examples appear below. But clearly these are all much more conventional applications of the figure than the one involving Messrs. SpongeBob and Batura. I wonder if there are enough critics of Bush et al. who follow Krugman in this accusation to have inspired Batura to apply the same term for their own ends, whether or not the circumstances justify it. larry ===== But it's even worse than that. Before Greenspan became Fed chairman, he headed a commission that recommended changes in Social Security to secure its future. The most important recommendation, adopted by Congress, was for an increase in the payroll tax -- a regressive tax that falls much more heavily on lower- and middle-income families than it does on the well-off. The ostensible purpose was to generate a surplus within the Social Security system, building up a trust fund to pay benefits once the baby boomers retire. That was the *bait*; now Greenspan has pulled the *switch*. The sequence looks like this: he pushed through an increase in taxes on working Americans, generating a Social Security surplus. Then he used the overall surplus, mainly coming from Social Security, to argue for tax cuts that deliver very little relief to most people but are worth a lot to those making more than $300,000 a year. And now that those tax cuts have contributed to a soaring deficit, he wants to maintain the tax cuts while cutting Social Security benefits. He never said, ''Let's raise taxes and cut benefits for working families so that we can give big tax cuts to the rich!'' But that's the end result of his advice. ====== Last week The Washington Post got hold of an Office of Management and Budget memo that directed federal agencies to prepare for post-election cuts in programs that George Bush has been touting on the campaign trail. These include nutrition for women, infants and children; Head Start; and homeland security. The numbers match those on a computer printout leaked earlier this year -- one that administration officials claimed did not reflect policy. Beyond the routine mendacity, the case of the leaked memo points us to a larger truth: whatever they may say in public, administration officials know that sustaining Mr. Bush's tax cuts will require large cuts in popular government programs. And for the vast majority of Americans, the losses from these cuts will outweigh any gains from lower taxes. It has long been clear that the Bush administration's claim that it can simultaneously pursue war, large tax cuts and a ''compassionate'' agenda doesn't add up. Now we have direct confirmation that the White House is engaged in **bait and switch**, that it intends to pursue a not at all compassionate agenda after this year's election. That agenda is to impose Dooh Nibor economics -- Robin Hood in reverse. The end result of current policies will be a large-scale transfer of income from the middle class to the very affluent, in which about 80 percent of the population will lose and the bulk of the gains will go to people with incomes of more than $200,000 per year. ============ And the reason Social Security is in fairly good shape is that during the 1980's the Greenspan commission persuaded Congress to increase the payroll tax, which supports the program. The payroll tax is regressive: it falls much more heavily on middle- and lower-income families than it does on the rich. In fact, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates, families near the middle of the income distribution pay almost twice as much in payroll taxes as in income taxes. Yet people were willing to accept a regressive tax increase to sustain Social Security. Now the joke's on them. Mr. Greenspan pushed through an increase in taxes on working Americans, generating a Social Security surplus. Then he used that surplus to argue for tax cuts that deliver very little relief to most people, but are worth a lot to those making more than $300,000 a year. And now that those tax cuts have contributed to a soaring deficit, he wants to cut Social Security benefits. The point, of course, is that if anyone had tried to sell this package honestly -- ''Let's raise taxes and cut benefits for working families so we can give big tax cuts to the rich!'' -- voters would have been outraged. So the class warriors of the right engaged in **bait-and-switch** ============ At one level, this pattern of cuts is standard operating procedure. Just about every apparent promise of financial generosity this administration has made (other than those involving tax cuts for top brackets and corporate contracts) has turned out to be nonoperational. No Child Left Behind got left behind -- or at least left without funds. AmeriCorps got praised in the State of the Union address, then left high and dry in the budget that followed. New York's firefighters and policemen got a photo-op with the president, but very little money. For that matter, it's clear that New York will never see the full $20 billion it was promised for rebuilding. Why shouldn't soldiers find themselves subject to the same kind of **bait and switch**?. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 23 20:44:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:44:40 -0500 Subject: ANS Presentations in SF Chronicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:42 PM -0500 1/23/05, Grant Barrett wrote: >The highly interesting "Queer Names of Stage, Screen and Fiction" >presentations of the American Names Society at the recent conference in >Oakland are covered today in the San Francisco Chronicle: > >http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/23/LVGT7ASCMR1.DTL > Nice coverage, despite the reattribution of the WOTY vote to the "Linguistic Society". Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 21:02:59 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:02:59 EST Subject: Bob's Your Uncle (1945) Message-ID: Not much new in a "Bob's you uncle" search. The British Library online is still awful. The 1890 Chicago Tribune horseracing citation is not what we're looking for. Paper of Record has a 1945 citation, if that helps any. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _FAME FOR UNCLE BOB; He Is the Winner of the Great American Derby. THE MILE AND A HALF IN 2:55 3/4. Thirty-five Thousand Spectators at Washington Park. FASHION AT THE CLUB-HOUSE. Society People Drive to the Track in Stylish Turnouts. AT THE GRAND STAND--THE INCIDENTS. How Uncle Bob Did It. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=430209422&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106511778&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune. Jun 22, 1890. p. 1 (1 page) ... _'The Captive Heart'; Integrity Marks Film About POWs _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=293169602&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD& RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106512691&clientId=65882) By Richard L. Coe. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 10, 1947. p. 13 (1 page) ... There are the lads who say "Bob's your uncle," and who sing that song which one will always identify with World War II--"Bless 'Em All." ... ... (PAPER OF RECORD) ... 25 July 1945, THE MAPLE LEAF--UK EDITION, pg. 2, col. 5: ...he liked the idea very much, wrapped up the handsome, silk-lined box that holes the gloves, and--as they say--Bob's your uncle. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 23 22:06:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:06:47 -0500 Subject: (high-)pressured Message-ID: * high-pressured, a. (OED2 1947) 1915 _Elyria Evening Telegram_ (Ohio) 19 Oct. 4/4 Tea and coffee come pretty near to being Nature's beneficent contribution to the welfare of the high-pressured, so to speak, human race. 1919 _Coshocton Tribune_ (Ohio) 16 Sep. 8 (advt.) For every "flashlight" ... use an Eveready Tungsten battery -- the high-pressured power plant that shoots out the long, strong stream of all-seeing light. 1920 _Sheboygan Press_ (Wisc.) 14 Dec. 8 (advt.) Friede's Clothes Shop whips into the gap with unmuzzled guns and decks cleared for action! In 9 of the biggest high-pressured selling days ever experienced in Sheboygan. * high-pressure, v. 'to coerce (someone) to do something' (OED2 1962) 1924 _Los Angeles Times_ 20 Jul. V-2/4 The real-estate dealers cannot afford to antagonize prospective customers by creating ill feeling among a few who have been "high-pressured" into buying. 1927 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Dec. 7 (advt.) You know you'll not be "high pressured" into buying a higher priced suit when you come to Brooks. 1928 _Decatur Herald_ (Ill.) 28 Mar. 6/3 They advertise how thoroughly some signal salesman has high pressured the president and boards of trustees of little towns which didn't need a single light, and all but had one of them on every corner. * high-pressuring, vbl. n. (not in OED) 1936 _Clearfield Progress_ (Pa.) 30 Nov. 5/6 When Navy trimmed the Army by a touchdown Saturday as a direct result of getting the ball on the West Pointers' three-yard l|ne through such an interference penalty, it probably was the "payoff" penalty which will lead to "high-pressuring" for alteration of the ruling. 1937 _Chicago Tribune_ 14 Feb. B10/1 The one-sided conversation was one of the smoothest jobs of high-pressuring you ever would want to hear. * pressure, v. 'to coerce (someone) to do something' (OED2 1939) [different sense?] 1933 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 5 Jun. 6/7 Head Play broke from outside of the starting gate, lost some ground when moving into the lead, held on gamely when pressured by Gold Basis, but faltered when the real racing began. 1934 _Lincoln Star_ (Neb.) 2 Feb. 6/5 A good many years ago Arthur told a small group of us that his friends had never "pressured" him into anything. 1934 _Washington Post_ 11 Aug. 9/3 One leading banker objected strongly to having been pressured into selling the RFC $250,000 of preferred stock in his bank. * pressure, v. 'press, force (something)' 1935 _New York Times_ 17 Nov. 27/1 The planned attempt more and more to shift the tax burden for the support of the State government from special privilege to the backs of men and women who live from the wages of their labor, should be countered before more shifting is pressured into law. 1936 _Nevada State Journal_ 25 Jun. 12/2 (heading) Meanwhile Bill Green's bill was pressured through Senate. * pressured, ppl. a. 'pressurized' (and related senses) 1920 _Chicago Tribune_ 29 Mar. 5/5 When the tornado passes over the roof of a house the higher pressured air inside explodes. 1928 _Los Angeles Times_ 13 Oct. II-2/8 As soon as the drill hole is made the balls will be injected into the pressured casing and are expected to be forced to the surface by the gas and clog there. 1942 _Los Angeles Times_ 27 Feb. A/2 On the other hand, if the cabin is pressured, it is vulnerable to bullets. 1943 _Clearfield Progress_ (Pa.) 3 Jul. 2/5 Rubber experts say that tires properly pressured at all times and never driven at excessive speed should last as long as the car itself. 1944 _News_ (Frederick, Md.) 14 Feb. 8/5 At the height of the fire, while firemen were attempting to carry out a gas range, a tank of pressured gas, half buried at the corner of the cabin, exploded with a loud report, shortly after the roof had caved in on it. 1944 _Berkshire Evening Eagle_ (Mass.) 22 Jun. 3/7 After many variations Boeing settled on a device of tapping air for the cabin from an engine pipe carrying pressured air to the carburetor. 1944 _New York Times_ 26 Jun. 23/8 Pressured cabins will permit comfortable flying above bad weather at about four miles altitude. 1947 _New York Times_ 8 Jul. 29/3 Pressure-cooked beans kept 70 per cent of their ascorbic acid, as did those that were steamed. ... As for the color, the "pressured" beans were almost as green as when raw, while those that were steamed or cooked in a snugly covered kettle lost most of their green and became yellowish. * pressured, ppl. a. '(of a person) under pressure; stressed' (OED2 1976) 1951 _Los Angeles Times_ 29 May II-5/6 Meantime, though, the reader will have met ... the men who are so pressured that they are dishonest in spite of themselves. 1952 _Chicago Tribune_ 7 Jun. 8/4 And so there's economic war / While each the other passes, / With liquidation coming for / The pressured middle classes. 1954 _Washington Post_ 27 Jun. (American Weekly) 9/1 In fact he's super normal until pressured. And then he blows up. [Humphrey Bogart on Captain Queeg] --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 23:00:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:00:12 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(LONG); Asked you to jump (1928) Message-ID: NY POST ON "BIRTH OF A NATION" I walked to the New York Public Library. It's open on Sunday. But, of course, it was closed. There was not even a sign on the door. So I splurged $2 on a subway to NYU. I don't see the quotation here...Way back, about 20 years ago, I wrote a play about the Ku Klux Klan and Plessy V. Ferguson called A FOOL'S ERRAND, based on the work of Albion Tourgee. It was about as successful as my etymology career. NEW YORK POST, March 4, 1915, pg. 9, col. 3: _"Birth of a Nation."_ An appeal to race prejudice as subtle and malicious as any that has been made in New York, a thrilling historic spectacle of the battles and life of the days of the Civil War, and an explanation of Southern feeling in the reconstruction days in defence of the Ku Klux Klan which terrorized negroes during that period--these were the things presented to the spectators who filled the Liberty Theatre last evening for the first presentation of the motion-picture drama, "The Birth of a Nation." As an achievement in motion-picture photography upon a tremendous scale, surprisingly effective in artistic realization, the film is as remarkable as it is audacious in its characterization of the negro as a primitive brute, either vicious or childlike, only to be controlled by violence. People were moved to cheers, hisses, laughter, and tears, apparently unconscious, and subdued, by tense interest in the play; they clapped when the masked riders took vengeance on negroes, and they clapped when the hero refused to shake the hand of a mulatto who has risen by political intrigue to become lieutenant-governor. This remark, made by a typical New Yorker leaving the theatre, characterizes the sentiment which was expressed to much of the comment: "THat show certainly does make you hate those blacks. And if it gets that effect on me, when I don't care anything about it, imagine what it would be in the South, with a man whose family was mixed up in it. It makes you feel as if you'd do the same thing." That is the element which mars one of the most ambitious and successful picture (Col. 4--ed.) dramas which has yet been attempted; and it is an element which does not seem necessary to the effectiveness of the film. To show the fact that there were individual outrages which roused the Southern whites of the 60's to organized violence, it does not appear necessary to characterize a race as either so vicious or so simple-minded that extermination or feudal control were the only methods of managing them; and this is the conclusion of "The Birth of a Nation." The blame for much of the trouble is shown to have lain upon the unscrupulous or misguided white political leaders of the North, who went to excess in their power to institute radical measures for negro freedom and equality of right. Stoneman, known really under another name, the Congressional leader, who held the reins of influence after the assassination of Lincoln, is represented as the cause of reconstruction turbulence. The war scenes in the first half of the play have been photographed with striking realism. Troops charging, artillery trains galloping, flags waving, shells bursting over barricades, the flow of battle over a field miles in length, are shown in full detail, and immediately after the excitement of the charge there is the sight of trenches full of torn and tangled bodies. The truth of the horror of war is not forgotten in presenting its fascination. The assassination of Linsoln has also been well reproduced. THe scene in the theatre, with the play, "Our American COusin," going forward in the stage, is shown in careful accordance with the historical accounts of it. How lincoln's guard left his post to get a view of the play; how Booth, waiting in the rear of another box, slipped through the door in the interval and fired at the President as he watched the play, are all seen. Booth's leap to the stage and his escape in the sudden excitement are faithfully portrayed, amid an equal excitement on the part of the spectators of to-day reviewing the scene. The second part of the play, in which attempted outrages by a renegade negro and the mulatto protege of Stoneman upon the white girls, and the election injustices (Col. 5--ed.) in which whites were refused the vote and in which negroes gained control of legislative power, with the resulting intense hatred and friction between the races, are shown, is the part which roused the emotion of the audience. A long chase of a white girl by a negro, ending with the girl's suicide by throwing herself over a cliff, called forth many excited whispered comments, and from them on to the end of the film there was ready applause for anything derogatory to negroes and for the activity of the Ku Klux Klan. Thomas Dixon, author of "The Clansman," upon which the picture-drama is based, was called, before the curtain last evening and made a short speech. In introducing D. W. Griffith, the producer of the pictures, he declared that none but the son of a Confederate soldier could have represented the spirit of his book. -------------------------------------------------------------- IF FRED SHAPIRO ASKED YOU TO JUMP OFF THE GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE, YOU'D DO THAT, TOO? This was popular in the 1960s. I remember Saturday Night Live's Jane Curtin playing a mother and saying this, about 1978. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Film Actor Leads Band and Likes It Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 9, 1928. p. C13 (2 pages): Pg. 31: "Those were glorious days," he recalled. "Never was there a more considerate director, a finer man than Frank Boggs. If he had lived, he would have been another D. W. Griffith. When Frank asked you to jump off a cliff, you did it. If Frank said it was all right, it had to be." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ("asked you to jump") Syracuse Herald Wednesday, September 17, 1930 Syracuse, New York ...YOU do a uskcd mo If Holnnlo ASKED YOU TO JUMP oil roof 1 .suppose YOU'd do.....loo Now I'd like TO know v.ho la TO p.iy for UK- damage YOU Have done TO.. Chronicle Telegram Tuesday, July 14, 1936 Elyria, Ohio ...DJS face reddpr.ing. voice anger ASKED YOU TO JUMP in cab. rniste n.....sw that man demanded briiUy. Eeyut ASKED Careive shook his head. WHERE did.. Appleton Post Crescent Thursday, September 18, 1930 Appleton, Wisconsin ...a "Hennie ASKED me TO." "And if Hennie ASKED YOU TO JUMP off the roof I suppose.....Now I'd like TO know who is going TO pay for the damage YOU have done TO.. Dixon Evening Telegraph Thursday, February 05, 1953 Dixon, Illinois ...rAr-V WE TOOK WELL-SAY A TACK- oimjRe ASKED YOU TO JUMP KEAL SWEET ID FACEStR.....we Contempt of court doesn't mean much TO a piece of TOwn Qnd City Answer TO.. Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, February 05, 1953 Syracuse, New York ...WINDS UP OJ THIS N'OTE- YOUR ANOTHER ASKED YOU TO JUMP N TWE LAKE IT-SHEfe.....has been subjected TO no one ever has ASKED him whether or not he was named TO.. Chronicle Telegram Tuesday, July 14, 1936 Elyria, Ohio ...aud children.. Ill MrrlM 411 DlckfTOi ASKED YOU TO JUMP m What's YOUr name.....than ni pi SIMPLE TO SEW Railroad Bids ASKED 12 No Buyers Vlnn -Xo ore could.. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Jan 23 23:29:08 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:29:08 -0500 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted In-Reply-To: <40C9C53E-6D77-11D9-8888-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2005, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > .... and then, this morning, LL was slashdotted. ... slashdotted? ? Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 23:37:43 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:37:43 -0500 Subject: Barking up the wrong tree (1832); No names, no pack-drill (1924) Message-ID: BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE "Barking up the wrong tree" came up in Dave Wilton's Word Origins page. An 1833 date was cited. Need I remind everyone that "barking up the wrong tree" is the WOTY for 1832 in the modern classic, AMERICAN IN SO MANY WORDS, by David Barnhart and Allan Metcalf. (DAVE WILTON'S WORD ORIGINS) Barking up the wrong tree The earliest cite I can find for this is 1833, Davy Crockett, no less, from Sketches and Eccentricities. (Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs). I told him that he reminded me of the meanest thing on God's earth, an old coon dog, barking up the wrong tree. This suggests an American origin. Anybody have anything earlier on it (assuming that Crockett didn't coin the phrase himself)? (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) March 27, 1834 SunBarking up the Wrong Tree May 22, 1832 Vermont Gazette From the Clinton, Miss Flag September 17, 1835 Sun Barking up the Wrong Tree Headline: From the Clinton, Miss Flag; Paper: Vermont Gazette; Date: 1832-05-22; Vol: L; Iss: 2546; Page: [1]; The Governor, we apprehend, will find himself like our old friend, Davy Crockett--"barking up the wrong tree." (LITERATURE ONLINE) Hall, James, 1793-1868 [Author Page] Legends of the West . . . (1832) 459Kb Legends of the West . . . [Durable URL for this text] Found 2 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] THE DIVINING ROD. [Durable URL for this text] ...to go to the devil; you are barking up the wrong tree , Johnson,---take a fresh start, and try to get... ...am sorry to find you are still barking up the wrong tree . Blank Page. Hall, James, 1793-1868 [Author Page] Tales of the Border . . . (1835) 426Kb Tales of the Border . . . [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] THE SILVER MINE. A TALE OF MISSOURI. [Durable URL for this text] Section [Durable URL for this text] ...dog on a pest trail---but he is barking up the wrong tree this time." He now ordered his horse. "Sorry to... Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Page] Westward Ho! , Volume 1 (1832) 371Kb Westward Ho! , Volume 1 [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] WESTWARD HO! [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER XIV. A voyage, a story, and a land adventure. [Durable URL for this text] ...country; so I thought I'd set him barking up the wrong tree a little. And I told him some stories that... Pike, Albert, 1809-1891 [Author Page] Prose Sketches and Poems, Written in the Western Country . . . (1834) 481Kb Prose Sketches and Poems, Written in the Western Country . . . [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY IN THE PRAIRIE. [Durable URL for this text] ...but they, to use another western phrase, `barked up the wrong tree,' when they got hold of Tom Smith. The Bald... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Ohio Repository Friday, May 03, 1833 Canton, Ohio ...ler, Hndinj; Ihnt he had barked up the WRONG TREE in that volfi, now .navslhc.. Peoples Press Friday, October 02, 1835 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...thai" they have barked up the WRONG TREE." WILLIAM McCLEAF, WILLIAM.. Adams Sentinel Monday, March 17, 1834 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...d says Gineial you are barkin' up the WRONG TREE this for I jest see that jump.....niggers to work culling- down the ilns TREE stood right along- side an old.. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) The silver mine Anonymous. The Illinois Monthly Magazine (1830-1832). Cincinnati: May 1832. Vol. 2, Iss. 20; p. 365 (10 pages) Pg. 374: "It all comes of trusting too much to uncle Mose," thought he; "the old man used to be as true on the scent of money, as an old 'coon dog on a pest trail--but his is barking up the wrong tree this time." -------------------------------------------------------------- NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL I searched the TIMES (London). The Times, Monday, May 05, 1924; pg. 7; Issue 43643; col F Selfridge & Co. Ltd. Category: Display Advertising: For instance, only the other day I learned that when one or two men who are very much in the public eye, received appointments, ("no names no pack drill") they immediately turned to the "Ready-for-Service departments for complete new outfits, in which to grace their new posts. (Ad for the Man's Shop at Selfridge & Co. Ltd.--ed.) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Jan 23 23:38:35 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:38:35 -0500 Subject: horse's neck In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D01B498B2@rdec-exch8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: > horse's neck (OED: "horse's neck slang (orig. U.S.), a beverage of ginger >ale flavoured with lemon-peel, with or without the addition of whisky, A much better version is seltzer or club soda + a twist (I prefer lime to lemon) + a dash of Angostura bitters. (Whisky? Mileage varies.) Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 23 23:52:51 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:52:51 -0500 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 06:29:08PM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2005, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > > .... and then, this morning, LL was slashdotted. ... > > slashdotted? Slashdot, http://slashdot.org , a website devoted to tech news and discussions thereof. When Slashdot mentions another site, that site tends to get a huge amount of traffic, so quickly that it can overwhelm the target site, sometimes causing it to crash or at least become unavailable. This is called "getting slashdotted". Jesse Sheidlower From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Jan 24 00:00:41 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:00:41 -0500 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Language Log is slashdotted > Slashdot, http://slashdot.org , a website devoted to tech news > and discussions thereof. When Slashdot mentions another site, > that site tends to get a huge amount of traffic, so quickly > that it can overwhelm the target site, sometimes causing it to > crash or at least become unavailable. This is called "getting > slashdotted". > > Jesse Sheidlower Maybe someone could slashdot Barry and his site, and he might not come up for air for weeks! SC > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 00:37:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:37:13 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(LONG); Asked you to jump (1928) In-Reply-To: <157CDDD4.1AAE552E.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:00 PM -0500 1/23/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >NY POST ON "BIRTH OF A NATION" > >I walked to the New York Public Library. It's open on Sunday. But, >of course, it was closed. There was not even a sign on the door. > >So I splurged $2 on a subway to NYU. I don't see the quotation >here...Way back, about 20 years ago, I wrote a play about the Ku >Klux Klan and Plessy V. Ferguson called A FOOL'S ERRAND, based on >the work of Albion Tourgee. It was about as successful as my >etymology career. > > >NEW YORK POST, March 4, 1915, pg. 9, col. 3: > >_"Birth of a Nation."_ > >An appeal to race prejudice as subtle and malicious as any that has >been made in New York, a thrilling historic spectacle of the battles >and life of the days of the Civil War, and an explanation of >Southern feeling in the reconstruction days in defence of the Ku >Klux Klan which terrorized negroes during that period--these were >the things presented to the spectators who filled the Liberty >Theatre last evening for the first presentation of the >motion-picture drama, "The Birth of a Nation." As an achievement in >motion-picture photography upon a tremendous scale, surprisingly >effective in artistic realization, the film is as remarkable as it >is audacious in its characterization of the negro as a primitive >brute, either vicious or childlike, only to be controlled by >violence. > >People were moved to cheers, hisses, laughter, and tears, apparently >unconscious, and subdued, by tense interest in the play; they >clapped when the masked riders took vengeance on negroes, and they >clapped when the hero refused to shake the hand of a mulatto who has >risen by political intrigue to become lieutenant-governor. This >remark, made by a typical New Yorker leaving the theatre, >characterizes the sentiment which was expressed to much of the >comment: "THat show certainly does make you hate those blacks. And >if it gets that effect on me, when I don't care anything about it, >imagine what it would be in the South, with a man whose family was >mixed up in it. It makes you feel as if you'd do the same thing." > Of course that was then (although I can imagine the same objection leveled in the Post of my own childhood, quite a liberal rag at the time). Anymore, the Post would probably defend the racial portrayals in BOAN. >-------------------------------------------------------------- >IF FRED SHAPIRO ASKED YOU TO JUMP OFF THE GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE, >YOU'D DO THAT, TOO? > >This was popular in the 1960s. I remember Saturday Night Live's Jane >Curtin playing a mother and saying this, about 1978. > and in the 1950s, especially if you were growing up in Washington Heights, almost in the shadow of the bridge. But I've also long heard the alternate version involving the Empire State Building, which must have implied a greater degree of gullibility, given the relative difference in the heights of the two structures. Larry From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 24 01:04:20 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:04:20 +0100 Subject: Polari In-Reply-To: <20050123235253.51F45198C@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Article about Polari http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=entertainmentNews&storyID=658899 Paul _________________________________________ Paul Frank English translation >From Chinese: social sciences and humanities >From German, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Dutch: sinology e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 01:24:12 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:24:12 -0500 Subject: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT Message-ID: From a polyreview of crime books by Marilyn Stasio in today's NYTBR. Can we assume Fulmer's attribution of "jass" for the musical genre in "turn of the 20th century" New Orleans is an anachronism? Of course we don't know from the review exactly how far (if at all) past the actual turn of the century the story and word are set. Larry ================ The New York Times January 23, 2005 Sunday SECTION: Section 7; Column 1; Book Review Desk; CRIME; Pg. 21 BYLINE: By Marilyn Stasio Music is the pulsating idiom of David Fulmer's hot-blooded JASS (Harcourt, $23), the sequel to ''Chasing the Devil's Tail'' (2001) and another voyeuristic tour of Storyville, New Orleans's red-light district during its heyday at the turn of the 20th century. Valentin St. Cyr, the private security agent for the underworld ''King of Storyville,'' is still keeping the lid on violence in the fancy bordellos and flashy gambling establishments of the district. But when the young piano man who calls himself Jelly Roll Morton tips off St. Cyr that someone is killing black musicians who are crossing Basin Street to play the new ''jass'' music in white bands, he starts making the rounds of the lowdown dives and dance halls where that raw and raunchy music is being played. Fulmer's dialogue adds its lyric voice to the gutbucket sounds and ragtime rhythms pouring out of the bars and up from the streets. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 01:50:31 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:50:31 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(LONG); Asked you to jump (1928) In-Reply-To: <157CDDD4.1AAE552E.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > So I splurged $2 on a subway to NYU. I don't see the quotation > here... Thanks to Barry for his help on this! The inaccuracy of the claim that the Wilson "history with lightning" quote appeared in 1915 is significant beyond just the matter of first use; it supports the idea that Wilson never said the quote altogether, since I think other claimed or documented appearances of the quote don't start until the 1930s. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 01:50:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:50:58 -0500 Subject: Coinage of "Movie" (1915); Re: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT Message-ID: JASS Yes, it's another anachronism by another author who doesn't know better. I spent many hours looking for "jass" or "jazz" in the New Orleans newspapers. When "jazz" was finally discussed in 1917, it was a new word to New Orleans. My post (to the old ADS-L archives in 1996) has long since been destroyed. -------------------------------------------------------------- MOVIE I was looking for the "Birth of a Nation" quote in film magazines when I saw this. I'll have to go to the NYPL to look at PHOTOPLAY. "Movie" was coined? By PHOTOPLAY? 20 March 1915, THE MOVING PICTURE WORLD, pg. 1749, col. 1: One thousand editors in the United States, asked by the Photoplay Magazine as to whether the word "movie" shall be entered in the dictionaries and used as pure English, have decided in the affirmative. Of the 733 who voted, 511 voted "yes" and 222 "no." 27 March 1915, THE MOVING PICTURE WORLD, pg. 1912, col. 1: CHICAGO LETTER BY JAS. S. McQUADE _Regarding the Childish Word, "Movie"_ IN a brevity in my Chicago letter last week, it was stated that out of 733 editors throughout the country who cast a vote for or against the use of the coined word "movie," 511 voted "yes," and 222 "no." It is to be regretted that the reasons for their voting for or against were not given and printed. Within the past week I have read an article in one CHicago newspaper in which the hope was expressed that the word "movie" would be retained, because it comes in so handily in the writing of newspaper headings! In another instance a writer was gleeful over the fact that even the infant, among the first words mastered by him, used the word "movie," and that "movie" was also the children's word and so had come to stay. But somehow, much as I still like the old nursery rhymes and love to hear children repeat them, I am of the opinion that it is best to put away tenderly childish things when one has reached manhood or womanhood. The coinage of "movie" was most assuredly childish. It stands for "moving picture." The coined word, please note, is not taken from the name of the thing itself, but from the qualifying word "moving." It is not at all unreasonable, therefore, to call everything which is not at rest a "movie," including the sun, moon and stars, the earth, an automobile, an airplane and the city garbage cart. Even man himself when in motion is a "movie," and so is a fly, and so is that other pestiferous insect with a name nearly alike. Is this childish word "movie," on the ground of etymology, a correct word to represent "moving picture" in our dictionaries? Is it a correct word from the common sense point of view? Is it a correct word for grown-ups to use, unless they are still fit for the nursery in mind and accomplishments? By all means let the children use "movie" to their little hearts' content; but in the name of all that is logical and customary in the making and adoption of the words of a language, let us, grown-ups, put it tenderly away. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jan 24 02:07:08 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:07:08 -0600 Subject: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT--(anachronism) Message-ID: I second Barry's rejection of this "jass" as an anachronism. There's no evidence--none, zero, zip, nada--of the term "jass" or "jazz" attested for the New Orleans music being played ca. 1900. At that time the music was simply played; the name came over a decade later and is first attested in California baseball, not New Orleans music. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:24 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT > > From a polyreview of crime books by Marilyn Stasio in today's NYTBR. Can we assume Fulmer's attribution of "jass" for the musical genre in "turn of the 20th century" New Orleans is an anachronism? Of course > we don't know from the review exactly how far (if at all) past the actual turn of the century the story and word are set. > > Larry > ================ > The New York Times > January 23, 2005 Sunday > > SECTION: Section 7; Column 1; Book Review Desk; CRIME; Pg. 21 > BYLINE: By Marilyn Stasio > > Music is the pulsating idiom of David Fulmer's hot-blooded JASS (Harcourt, $23), the sequel to ''Chasing the Devil's Tail'' (2001) and another voyeuristic tour of Storyville, New Orleans's red-light district during its heyday at the turn of the 20th century. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 02:51:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:51:11 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(1937) Message-ID: THE PAPERS OF WOODROW WILSON Arthur S. Link, editor Volume 32 January 1-April 16, 1915 Princeton University Press Princeton, New Jersey 1980 Pg. 267 (Footnotes): 1 Dixon (Thomas Dixon Jr.--ed.) and a projection crew showed "The Birth of a Nation" for Wilson and his family and wives of cabinet members in the East Room of the White House on the evening of February 18. There is a tradition, repeated, for example, in Raymond A. Cook, _Fire from the Flint: The Amazing Careers of Thomas Dixon_ (Winston-Salem, N. C. 1968), p. 170, that WIlson, after the showing, said to Dixon: "It is like writing history with lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true." This quotation first appears (without attribution) in all known sources and literature in Milton MacKaye, "The Birth of a Nation," _Scribner's Magazine_, CII (Nov. 1937), 69. Dixon did not use the quotation in his memoirs, "Southern Horizons" (composition date unknown). Marjorie Brown King, the only survivor among the persons at the showing in the East Room, told the Editor on June 23, 1977, that Wilson seemed lost in thought during the showing, and that he walked out of the room without saying a word when the movie was over. (Maybe I'll check the BIRTH OF A NATION file in the NYPL Lincoln Center library on Tuesday. Right after I solve the origin of "movies"--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 04:06:34 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:06:34 -0500 Subject: Coinage of "Movie" (1915); Re: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT In-Reply-To: <3444151B.389EA869.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:50 PM -0500 1/23/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >JASS > >Yes, it's another anachronism by another author who doesn't know better. > >I spent many hours looking for "jass" or "jazz" in the New Orleans >newspapers. When "jazz" was finally discussed in 1917, it was a new >word to New Orleans. My post (to the old ADS-L archives in 1996) has >long since been destroyed. > Yes, I figured it was likely an anachronism. Thanks VERY much to Barry for the article below, which is just the sort of critical commentary on "illogical" coinage and lexical change I collect. This sort of truncation is precisely as "illogical" as the use of liberated "qualifying words" like "private" or "general" as truncations of "private soldier" or "general officer". But equally interesting to me is the parallel between McQuade's opposition to singling out just one thing that moves as a "movie" and Quintilian's objection to the claim that Lat. "homo" derived from "humus" (which of course it did) because after all, every creature came from the earth. larry > >27 March 1915, THE MOVING PICTURE WORLD, pg. 1912, col. 1: >CHICAGO LETTER >BY JAS. S. McQUADE > >_Regarding the Childish Word, "Movie"_ > >IN a brevity in my Chicago letter last week, it was stated that out >of 733 editors throughout the country who cast a vote for or against >the use of the coined word "movie," 511 voted "yes," and 222 "no." >It is to be regretted that the reasons for their voting for or >against were not given and printed. > >Within the past week I have read an article in one CHicago newspaper >in which the hope was expressed that the word "movie" would be >retained, because it comes in so handily in the writing of newspaper >headings! In another instance a writer was gleeful over the fact >that even the infant, among the first words mastered by him, used >the word "movie," and that "movie" was also the children's word and >so had come to stay. But somehow, much as I still like the old >nursery rhymes and love to hear children repeat them, I am of the >opinion that it is best to put away tenderly childish things when >one has reached manhood or womanhood. > >The coinage of "movie" was most assuredly childish. It stands for >"moving picture." The coined word, please note, is not taken from >the name of the thing itself, but from the qualifying word "moving." >It is not at all unreasonable, therefore, to call everything which >is not at rest a "movie," including the sun, moon and stars, the >earth, an automobile, an airplane and the city garbage cart. Even >man himself when in motion is a "movie," and so is a fly, and so is >that other pestiferous insect with a name nearly alike. > >Is this childish word "movie," on the ground of etymology, a correct >word to represent "moving picture" in our dictionaries? Is it a >correct word from the common sense point of view? Is it a correct >word for grown-ups to use, unless they are still fit for the nursery >in mind and accomplishments? > >By all means let the children use "movie" to their little hearts' >content; but in the name of all that is logical and customary in the >making and adoption of the words of a language, let us, grown-ups, >put it tenderly away. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 24 04:18:26 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:18:26 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> ~~~~~~~~ >>> an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any >>> light to shed on "exactually"? >>> > ************ > Just an obvious comment; In "exactly"and "actually" we see > partial phonetic overlap ("act" and "-ly" in both). So "actually" was > partially grafted onto "exactly", producing "exactually." > > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah > song contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see > partial phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" > was grafted onto "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with > the loss of the -"tory" ("satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. > > Gerald Cohen > "It's the truth! It's akchul! Ev'rything is sa-tis-fak-chul!" Your memory is close enough for government work, Gerald. I can't vouch for the accuracy of my pseudo-phonetic spelling, but that's certainly what it sounded like to me. -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 24 06:20:47 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:20:47 -0600 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. Which is a shame, because despite its antediluvian portrayal of 19th century Blacks, it is a good movie. ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Sun 1/23/2005 10:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > >> ~~~~~~~~ >>> an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any >>> light to shed on "exactually"? >>> > ************ > Just an obvious comment; In "exactly"and "actually" we see > partial phonetic overlap ("act" and "-ly" in both). So "actually" was > partially grafted onto "exactly", producing "exactually." > > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah > song contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see > partial phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" > was grafted onto "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with > the loss of the -"tory" ("satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. > > Gerald Cohen > "It's the truth! It's akchul! Ev'rything is sa-tis-fak-chul!" Your memory is close enough for government work, Gerald. I can't vouch for the accuracy of my pseudo-phonetic spelling, but that's certainly what it sounded like to me. -Wilson Gray From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 08:19:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:19:14 EST Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! Message-ID: >From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS (6th edition, 2004), pg. 222: ... NANCY ASTOR: If I were your wife I would put poison in your coffee! CHURCHILL: And if I were your husband I would drink it. Consuelo Vanderbilt Balsan _Glitter and Gold_ (1952) ... Oxford surely checked and checked again. Does Fred have this? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _IN NEW PLAYS_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101222024&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554110&clientId =65882) Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) ... These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree appeared at the Manhattan: ... Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. .. ... _HERE IN WASHINGTON_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=260085892&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554533&cl ientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1906. p. ES4 (1 page) ... "Mr. Blank, if I were your wife, I'd give you a cup of poison." "Madam," he responded, without a smile. "If you were my wife, I'd be glad to drink it." ... ... ... ... I couldn't find this in the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. I suppose Fred has it from 1951 on ProQuest. ... 23 January 2005, NEW YORK POST, pg. 41, col. 1: "IN wartime," said Winston Churchill, "truth is so precious that she should wlways be attended by a bodyguard of lies." From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 24 10:36:21 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:36:21 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <200501200631.j0K6VH56015325@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: Sounds like braided armpits (1960s Polish joke) have nothing on this: "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute ass. She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1969 From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 24 12:15:46 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:15:46 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3DDD@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.a rmy.mil> Message-ID: >And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, >since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be >released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. But the song is found in at least one of the videotape music collections by Disney. It does say "satisfactual", pronounced about as Gerald Cohen did IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 12:44:10 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:44:10 -0500 Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! In-Reply-To: <1b9.b91987a.2f260982@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New > York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) > ... > These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree > appeared at the Manhattan: > ... > Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. > Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. Great discovery, Barry. I already knew this was an old, pre-Churchillian joke, but I had it from 1923. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Jan 24 13:06:36 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:06:36 +0000 Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This doesn't antedate, but the use, reinforced by 'sugar papa', is irrefutably slang: I haven't encountered 'bracelet buyer' in this context elsewhere. 1924 O.O. McIntyre ‘New York Day by Day’ [syndicated col.] 10 Dec. They are the boys below the scale of the heavy sugar papas and butter and egg men and are designated bracelet buyers. Jonathon Green From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 24 13:14:11 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:14:11 -0500 Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:19:14 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >_IN NEW PLAYS_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101222024&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554110&clientId >=65882) >Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New >York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) >... >These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree >appeared at the Manhattan: >... >Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. >Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. >.. >... >_HERE IN WASHINGTON_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=260085892&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554533&cl >ientId=65882) >The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1906. p. ES4 (1 >page) >... >"Mr. Blank, if I were your wife, I'd give you a cup of poison." >"Madam," he responded, without a smile. "If you were my wife, I'd be glad >to drink it." Taking it back to 1900... Scored Last. Chicago Tribune, Jan 3, 1900, p. 12 "If I had a husband like you," she said, with concentrated scorn, "I'd give him poison!" "Mad'm," he rejoined, looking her over with a feeble sort of smile, "'f I had a wife like you I'd take it." [Also reprinted in: Washington Post, Jan 11, 1900. p. 6] Mutually Agreeable (from the Boston Transcript) Los Angeles Times, Jan 7, 1900, p. IM9 "If you were my husband, sir, I'd give you a dose of poison!" The man looked at her. "If I were your husband," said he, "I'd take it!" And two later iterations... Illinois Club Women Tell Stories, "the Funniest They Ever Heard." Chicago Tribune, Oct 25, 1908, p. A3 "If I were your wife I would give you poison." He turned, looked here from top to toe with deepest contempt and replied: "Well, bedad, I'd take it." Tit for Tat (from the Kansas City Independent) Washington Post, Aug 5, 1909, p. 6 "If you were my husband I'd give you poison." "Well, mum," returned the Irishman, as he puffed away at his pipe, "if you wuz me wife I'd take it." [Also reprinted in: Atlanta Constitution, Aug 25, 1910, p. 3] --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 13:15:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:15:23 -0800 Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! Message-ID: In the version I remember, from a kids' book of baseball anecdotes in 1957, the actors were an irate lady fan and a put-upon umpire. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS (6th edition, 2004), pg. 222: ... NANCY ASTOR: If I were your wife I would put poison in your coffee! CHURCHILL: And if I were your husband I would drink it. Consuelo Vanderbilt Balsan _Glitter and Gold_ (1952) ... Oxford surely checked and checked again. Does Fred have this? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _IN NEW PLAYS_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101222024&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554110&clientId =65882) Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) ... These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree appeared at the Manhattan: ... Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. .. ... _HERE IN WASHINGTON_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=260085892&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554533&cl ientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1906. p. ES4 (1 page) ... "Mr. Blank, if I were your wife, I'd give you a cup of poison." "Madam," he responded, without a smile. "If you were my wife, I'd be glad to drink it." ... ... ... ... I couldn't find this in the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. I suppose Fred has it from 1951 on ProQuest. ... 23 January 2005, NEW YORK POST, pg. 41, col. 1: "IN wartime," said Winston Churchill, "truth is so precious that she should wlways be attended by a bodyguard of lies." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 16:48:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:48:13 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050123113548.02294b10@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:56 AM -0500 1/23/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >In first language acquisition (and early second also), children typically >use unmarked 'a' in all contexts, adding liaison /n/ before vowels quite >late (4 or 5, if memory serves away from my books). In some "subdialects" >(I don't like the word, but OK for now) the lack of liaison may persist >throughout adulthood, esp. in informal contexts (my Baltimorean ex-husband, >a comp. lit scholar, was a good example of this). Witness 'a apple', 'a >egg', 'a angel', etc. I have a Peanuts cartoon in which Charlie Brown >tries to instruct Sally in its use, after which she writes in a letter to >someone or other, "Dear Sir, You are an ucklehead." And of course, there's >'a napron' --> 'an apron' and Shakespeare's 'nuncle' (a reverse >reanalysis), both of which suggest a psycholinguistic awareness of the "a >to an before vowels" rule dating at least to Early Modern English. Ditto >for 'my to mine', 'thy to thine', etc.--even my American grad students are >amazed when they realize that this is what causes the pronoun variation in >the Lord's Prayer, not to mention Shakespeare. > >Beverly Flanigan I'm not sure what the metanalyses show about directionality, given that as you mention there are a number of examples in each direction: an + V > a + nV a newt (cf. _eft_) a nuncle (didn't take) a n a (whole) nother thing a nonce (word) vs. a + nV > an + V an apron an orange an adder (the snake) an umpire This shows speakers are aware that the "@nV-" sequence for indef. art. + CN can reflect either phonological structure, but not that there's an insertion rule vs. a deletion rule for the article. (In fact, there's a similar allomorphic alternation for the Greek privative prefix: anechoic, anhydrous, anaerobic, anesthetic vs. amoral, aphasic, asymptomatic.) The best evidence for deletion rather than insertion is that it's easier to predict what isn't there before consonants than what pops up before vowels, especially given the similarity between the article case and the prefix case, although the latter is frozen (whence the fixed nature of "anhydrous" vs. the online alternation between "a/an historical accident" depending on whether the /h/ is pronounced). The best evidence for insertion is the dialectal and developmental evidence noted by Wilson and Beverly--the frequently attested occurrence of "a apple" and the like vs. the non-occurrence of "an pear". (Well, yes, there is the very small group of speakers I mentioned earlier--including one of my undergraduates--who do have "an" before consonants, but since this involves a specific semantic value and prosody ("I'm (just) *an* person", meaning 'only one') rather than a variant of the indefinite article as such, I think we can discount it heavily.) larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 24 16:49:27 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:49:27 -0800 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: > "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute ass. > She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, > affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. > > -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1969 one annoying characteristic of malapropisms is that they tend to block the reader's (or hearer's) attempts at retrieving the right word in the context -- the word the writer (or speaker) *should have used*. "abundant"? by the way, was there really a comma between "firm" and "muscles"? arnold, marveling at the conflict in tone between "hirsute" and "ass" From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 24 17:04:16 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:04:16 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute 2 In-Reply-To: <200501241649.j0OGnYIS016486@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 24/1/05 4:49 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: > >> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute ass. >> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >> >> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1969 > > one annoying characteristic of malapropisms is that they tend to block > the reader's (or hearer's) attempts at retrieving the right word in the > context -- the word the writer (or speaker) *should have used*. > > "abundant"? > > by the way, was there really a comma between "firm" and "muscles"? 'Fraid so - but then the text has presumably been OCRd, which may account for the unlikely comma (? dirt on the page). The story was found at http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels I believe affluent can also mean flowing, but perhaps not in the sense of these locks. > > arnold, marveling at the conflict in tone between "hirsute" and "ass" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 24 17:26:48 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:26:48 -0800 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on Jan 24, 2005, at 8:49 AM, i wrote: > On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: > >> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute >> ass. >> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >> >> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, >> 1969? > > ... arnold, marveling at the conflict in tone between "hirsute" and > "ass" probably the result of cycling through (near-)synonyms, a common practice of inexperienced writers, of those who have been taught not to repeat words (but haven't been taught to maintain a consistent tone), and of writers in certain genres (for instance, porn/erotica). in two sentences we have "ass" and "rear". "bottom":, "posterior", "buttocks", "butt", etc. might well be lurking in the neighborhood. "hirsute", meanwhile, looks like an elegant substitute for "hairy", which in this context would a bit too vividly physical; "hairy ass" would be right out, though "hirsute posterior" might have worked. (eventually i'll report on some discussion from soc.motss a while back on "cock" vs. "dick"; a number of americans reported that "cock" seemed more sexual to them than "dick".) arnold, noting the nice displacement in having the man's *hair* stiffen under the woman's smooth palms From panis at PACBELL.NET Mon Jan 24 17:29:36 2005 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:29:36 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: Apparently a Britishism, but found in a USian newspaper. Rotten Kids, British Style, Collide With American Back to Nature By VIRGINIA HEFFERNAN Published: January 24, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/24/arts/television/24heff.html From a review of "Brat Camp", an "enlightening, four-part teen-reform reality series, which has its penultimate episode on ABC Family tonight. On this show six sulky, brawling British adolescents are forced to grow up under the pressure of frontier-style American discipline." The article concludes with: But Tom, who initially feigns madness, Hamlet-style, has at least one moment of lucidity. Explaining himself to Fran, he gives a rap sheet with details that suggest a quintessentially British burnout. "I'm a screwed-up little druggie," he says. "He's been disrespectful to his mum. He broke his mum's ribs by pushing her onto a washing machine. What else have I done? Oh, yeah, I glass-bottled someone." Impressive. At least the tuneless singers on "American Idol" don't glass bottle people, whatever that is. (end quote) Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search field did turn up this article, though: Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm Pubs and clubs should sell bottled beer and alcopops in plastic bottles in order to cut street violence, a conference has heard. (end quote) The verb doesn't appear here, though. On the other hand, another (British-only?) term I'd not seen before does, apparently unusual enough to warrant quotes: Delegates from the drinks industry, the police, public health, the drug and alcohol advisory sector and local authorities heard how happy hours, alcopops, growing affluence and the British obsession with "necking it" as the night goes on all play a part. (end quotes) Another British article defines it by context: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2004/02/14/paul14.xml&sSheet=/education/2004/02/14/ixteright.html Sipping it, not necking it (Filed: 14/02/2004) Students are as keen as ever on drinking - but more want quality, not quantity, says Simon Brooke. (end quote) John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 17:50:00 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:50:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Literary" In-Reply-To: <200501240819.j0O8JM33015550@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: literary (OED 1646 in the sense "pertaining to the letters of the alphabet," 1749 in the sense "of, or pertaining to, or of the nature of, literature") 1605 Francis Bacon _The tvvoo bookes of Francis Bacon. Of the proficience and aduancement of learning, diuine and humane. To the King._ 7 (Early English Books Online) HISTORY is NATURAL, CIVIL, ECCLESIASTICALL & LITERARY, whereof the three first I allow as extant, the fourth I note as deficient. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 17:57:13 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:57:13 EST Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0600, "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" writes: > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah song > contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see partial > phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" was grafted onto > "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with the loss of the -"tory" (" > satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. Yes, your memory is correct. If my memory is correct, the song is sung by Uncle Remus inthe Walt Disney movie "Song of the South", which is based (more or less) on the Uncle Remus stories by Joel Chandler Harris. "Satisfactual" is poetic licence, nothing more. It was invented to have a rhyme with "actual" which ended the previous line of the song. My guess is that the writer of the song realized he had to do something to make Uncle Remus sound like a black slave, or more exactly to sound like Harris's rendition of supposed ante-bellum AAVE. The rest of the song having no features not in educated white English, the writer apparently stuck in "satisfactual" to keep Uncle Remus from sounding like his white owner. Now to go way off topic: I saw "Song of the South" only once, and I was in elementary school at the time and don't recall much of the movie. In these Politically Correct days, how is "Song of the South" considered? PC? Politically Incorrect? or what? Also, I am curious as to today's PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 17:59:56 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:59:56 EST Subject: Raining cats and dogs Message-ID: I heard the following story about the phrase "raining cats and dogs" and would like to know if it is true, etymythology, or undecided: "The phrase comes from the days when most roofs were thatch. Now thatch contains seeds, which means it attracts mice and rats who eat the seeds. To get the rhodents out of their rooves, people would turn their cats and dogs loose on the roof. When it rained, the felines and canines were washed off the roof, hence the expression." - James A. Landau From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Mon Jan 24 18:00:39 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:00:39 -0500 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: <20050124173122.13D597AEE9@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: > Found this cite of "glass bottle" on Google. I wrote the writer for clarification of the term. Whatever it is, it is unpleasant: [Quote] That is sad. My mate Sean also gets hit by his dad. He lives over here Birmingham with his uncle now, but when he lived down in London, his dad was giving him boiling showers, freezing showers, blackeyes, he was getting hit, punched, kicked, and once his dad glass bottled him. [End Quote] Cite: http://newsbyteens.com/articles/view.asp?articleid=719 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 18:11:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:11:05 -0800 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: I thought "Song of the South" was great as a kid and that Uncle Remus was a great guy. Disney has not yet released it to video or DVD. A friend who is knowledgeable in such things assures me they never will, but here's a different opinion: http://dvd.ign.com/articles/576/576790p1.html JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0600, "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" writes: > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah song > contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see partial > phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" was grafted onto > "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with the loss of the -"tory" (" > satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. Yes, your memory is correct. If my memory is correct, the song is sung by Uncle Remus inthe Walt Disney movie "Song of the South", which is based (more or less) on the Uncle Remus stories by Joel Chandler Harris. "Satisfactual" is poetic licence, nothing more. It was invented to have a rhyme with "actual" which ended the previous line of the song. My guess is that the writer of the song realized he had to do something to make Uncle Remus sound like a black slave, or more exactly to sound like Harris's rendition of supposed ante-bellum AAVE. The rest of the song having no features not in educated white English, the writer apparently stuck in "satisfactual" to keep Uncle Remus from sounding like his white owner. Now to go way off topic: I saw "Song of the South" only once, and I was in elementary school at the time and don't recall much of the movie. In these Politically Correct days, how is "Song of the South" considered? PC? Politically Incorrect? or what? Also, I am curious as to today's PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo". - James A. Landau __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Jan 24 18:24:26 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:24:26 -0800 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: Song of the South is WAY PI. Disney has locked it in the vaults indefinitely and it cannot be purchased in the US except on places such as EBAy. The video copies usually come from Great Britain in PAL format or from American individuals who have converted (pirated) it into NTSC. Be prapared to pay a lot. Fritz Now to go way off topic: I saw "Song of the South" only once, and I was in elementary school at the time and don't recall much of the movie. In these Politically Correct days, how is "Song of the South" considered? PC? Politically Incorrect? or what? Also, I am curious as to today's PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo". - James A. Landau From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Jan 24 18:24:05 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:24:05 -0600 Subject: Raining cats and dogs In-Reply-To: <200501241314.3a41f53b0a12a@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Snopes has this to say: I'll describe their houses a little. You've heard of thatch roofs, well that's all they were. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. They were the only place for the little animals to get warm. So all the pets; dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs, all lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery so sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Thus the saying, "it's raining cats and dogs," Mice, rats, and bugs definitely take up residence in thatch roofs -- to them it's a highrise hay mow. Cats and dogs, however, don't go up there. The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th century, not the 16th. A number of theories as to its origin exist: * By evoking the image of cats and dogs fighting in a riotous, all-out manner, it expresses the fury of a sudden downpour. * Primitive drainage systems in use in the 17th century could be overwhelmed by heavy rainstorms, leading to gutters overflowing with debris that included dead animals. * In Northen European mythology, it is believed cats influence the weather and dogs represent wind. * The saying might have derived from the obsolete French word catadoupe, meaning waterfall or cataract. * It might have come from a similar-sounding Greek phrase meaning "an unlikely occurrence." Patti Kurtz Minot State University laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: Raining cats and dogs >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 12:59 PM -0500 1/24/05, James A. Landau wrote: > > >>I heard the following story about the phrase "raining cats and dogs" and >>would like to know if it is true, etymythology, or undecided: >> >>"The phrase comes from the days when most roofs were thatch. Now thatch >>contains seeds, which means it attracts mice and rats who eat the >>seeds. To get >>the rhodents out of their rooves, people would turn their cats and dogs loose >>on the roof. When it rained, the felines and canines were washed >>off the roof, >>hence the expression." >> >> >> >This is an entry in the immortal "Life in the 15th century" >collection, a web-circulated panoply of etymythology if there ever >was one. Without checking the snopes folks, I would expect it's >exactly as accurate as the Hellenized reconstruction of "rhodent" >above--stemming no doubt from the days of yore in which rats' teeth >were shaped like the 17th letter of the Greek alphabet. > >larry > > -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 18:14:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:14:37 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs In-Reply-To: <146.3d1a4d71.2f26919c@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:59 PM -0500 1/24/05, James A. Landau wrote: >I heard the following story about the phrase "raining cats and dogs" and >would like to know if it is true, etymythology, or undecided: > >"The phrase comes from the days when most roofs were thatch. Now thatch >contains seeds, which means it attracts mice and rats who eat the >seeds. To get >the rhodents out of their rooves, people would turn their cats and dogs loose >on the roof. When it rained, the felines and canines were washed >off the roof, >hence the expression." > This is an entry in the immortal "Life in the 15th century" collection, a web-circulated panoply of etymythology if there ever was one. Without checking the snopes folks, I would expect it's exactly as accurate as the Hellenized reconstruction of "rhodent" above--stemming no doubt from the days of yore in which rats' teeth were shaped like the 17th letter of the Greek alphabet. larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jan 24 18:38:59 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:38:59 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: FYI Song of the South Lyrics: Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah As a song writer-- I actually write more music than I do lyrics -- all I have to say is that you takes your rhymes wherever you can get them and if you are lucky the music will overcome the fact that some of your words do not actually rhyme. The old gag is June, moon, spoon, etc. but there is a reason for it. The music demands that the lyrics end up in the right place and not all of us are geniuses like Gilbert and Sullivan who were able to combine their talents in order to make their songs work perfectly. Dialect songs are even worse because very few lyric writers have any idea of what the dialects they are attempting to imitate sound like. If you want to learn more about this process I would suggest that you look up Lieber and Stoller who wrote some of the most fascinating songs of the past 50 or so years, everything from, "You Ain't Nothing But a Hound Dog" on up for Black performers. I have no idea where the word "satisfactual" in this song came from but it is my guess that Ray Gilbert thought that it sounded kinda Black in terms of the audience for the picture whose audience would have been for the most part White and thus used it. Anyone out there have any better ideas. Page Stephens Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah Music by Allie Wrubel Lyrics by Ray Gilbert Performed by James Baskett © 1945 Walt Disney Music Company Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay My, oh my, what a wonderful day Plenty of sunshine headin' my way Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder It's the truth, it's actual Ev'rything is satisfactual Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Wonderful feeling, wonderful day, yes sir! Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay My, oh my, what a wonderful day Plenty of sunshine headin' my way Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder It's the truth, it's actual Ev'rything is satisfactual Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Wonderful feeling, feeling this way Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder It is the truth, it's actual... huh? Where is that bluebird? Mm-hm! Ev'rything is satisfactual Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Wonderful feeling, wonderful day! 1946 song teaser ad [Mat 212]. This is without a doubt the most well-known song of the movie and, appropriately enough, won an Academy Award for best motion picture song in 1948. Sung by James Baskett (Uncle Remus), this song is still very popular and well-known today. View Original Sheet Music Listen to Sound Clip This song is available on CD: Classic Disney, Vol. 1. This song is available on VHS: Disney Sing-Along Songs, Vol. 2. Other Song Lyrics: Song of the South How Do You Do? Everybody Has A Laughing Place Uncle Remus Said Sooner Or Later Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah Let The Rain Pour Down All I Want Who Wants To Live Like That? Demonstration Songs Return to Lyrics ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:15 AM Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, >>since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be >>released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. > > But the song is found in at least one of the videotape music collections > by > Disney. It does say "satisfactual", pronounced about as Gerald Cohen did > IMHO. > > -- Doug Wilson From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 24 18:51:48 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:51:48 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Monday, January 24, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote: > >The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th >century, not the 16th. 1738 Swift _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation_ ..... But, compare: [a1652 tr. J.F. Gmelin's Linnaeus' Syst. Nat. ... It shall raine .. Dogs and Polecats.] For what it's worth. David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 18:56:43 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:56:43 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have previously antedated "computer" in its modern (machine) sense. Here is an antedating of the original sense (person who computes). computer (OED 1646) 1614 R. B. _The yong mans gleanings_ 1 (Early English Books Online) I haue read the truest computer of Times, and the best Arithmetician that euer breathed. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jan 24 19:21:51 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:21:51 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs Message-ID: Question: What's worse than raining cats and dogs? Answer: Hailing taxi cabs. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Raining cats and dogs > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barnhart > Subject: Re: Raining cats and dogs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > American Dialect Society on Monday, January 24, > 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote: >> >>The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th >>century, not the 16th. > > 1738 Swift _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation_ > ..... > > But, compare: > > [a1652 tr. J.F. Gmelin's Linnaeus' Syst. Nat. ... It shall raine .. Dogs > and Polecats.] > > For what it's worth. > > David K. Barnhart > > barnhart at highlands.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 19:36:49 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:36:49 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:51 PM -0500 1/24/05, Barnhart wrote: >American Dialect Society on Monday, January 24, >2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote: >> >>The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th >>century, not the 16th. > >1738 Swift _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation_ >..... Swift's _Polite Conversation_, as it's usually called, was evidently begun about 1704 or so, but first published in 1738 (official catchy title: _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation, According to the Most Polite Mode and Method Now used at Court, and in the Best Companies of England_, published under the byline of Simon Wagstaff, Esq.) FWIW, in my edition, OUP 1963, commentator Eric Partridge notes under the relevant line-- LORD SPARKISH. Nay, I know Sir John will go, though he was sure it would rain Cats and Dogs. --that "rain Cats and Dogs" for 'rain violently' is attested "probably since c. 1600" (p. 155), although he doesn't give any further cites. A bit earlier in the same Dialogue II in _Polite conversation_, Swift offers his own retelling of the much-purveyed etymythology for "sirloin" (actually < Fr. sur 'over' + loin): MISS NOTABLE. But pray, why is it called a Sirloyn? LORD SPARKISH. Why, you must know that our King James I. who loved good Eating, being invited to Dinner by one of his Nobles, and seeing a large Loyn of Beef at his Table; he drew out his Sword, and in a Frolick Knighted it. Few People know the Secret of this. (p. 124) Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 19:48:33 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: political economy (OED 1767) 1732 John Pullen _ Memoirs of the maritime affairs of Great Britain, especially in relation to our concerns in the West-Indies_ 57 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The only essential Maxim which runs through the whole Political OEconomy of the _Spaniards_, in respect of their Territories here, is the keeping them in an absolute Dependance upon _Spain_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 19:51:18 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:51:18 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: political economy (OED 1767) 1704 James Whiston _England's State-distempers_ 3 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Not one Revolution that happened in the Jewish Political Oeconomy but what was for the Punishment of their Crimes. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jan 24 19:52:23 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:52:23 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 02:51:18PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > political economy (OED 1767) > > 1704 James Whiston _England's State-distempers_ 3 (Eighteenth Century > Collections Online) Not one Revolution that happened in the Jewish > Political Oeconomy but what was for the Punishment of their Crimes. Keep going, Fred, eventually you'll find the a1687 example in EEBO.... JTS From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 20:02:52 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:02:52 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: <20050124195223.GA11529@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > Keep going, Fred, eventually you'll find the a1687 example in EEBO.... Actually I searched EEBO and got no hits. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jan 24 20:06:03 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:06:03 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 03:02:52PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > Keep going, Fred, eventually you'll find the a1687 example in EEBO.... > > Actually I searched EEBO and got no hits. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. a1687 W. Petty _Polit. Anat. Ireland_ (1691) 63 This brings me to the most important Consideration in Political Oeconomies, _viz._ how to make a _Par_ and _Equation_ between Lands and Labour, so as to express the Value of any thing by either alone. Jesse Sheidlower OED From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 20:49:21 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:49:21 -0500 Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") Message-ID: Under "fly", adjective, HDAS discerns two related senses: sense 1a (= wide awake) *1724, *1821, *1850, &c. (all English); 1872 (US); sense 1b (= aware) *1811, *1812 (both English); 1839 (US) (I abbreviate the definitions and leave out the supporting quotations, but we all sleep with HDAS on the nightstand, don't we?) Whichever sense the first of these two below goes under, it is a pretty neat antedating in the U. S. The fact that it comes 50+ years before the 2nd earliest English citation is all right, too. 1749: That the fly Ones should not suspect you for a Courtier, you have been likewise very arch in giving us to understand, that you had been heretofore pleased to encourage and support the Party. N-Y Gazette Revived, January 16, 1748-9, p. 1, col. 1 [from a political diatribe, responding to last week's political diatribe] 1824: The carriages, wagons, horsemen, and pedestrians, who seemed to make Coney Island their place of destination, amounted to a considerable number; the roads were lined and adorned with them in every direction; the regulars were numerous -- the knowing ones were up, and the downy ones were all fly. The Emerald, October 16, 1824, p. 109, cols. 1-2. [a report on a prizefight] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 21:02:10 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: a desperado's brag Message-ID: I began my career as a gatherer of curious words and expressions with the expression "I can do it standing on my head" -- by which villains express thier disdain for a prison sentence. I found it interesting that this expression was a fixed set-phrase yet also variable. Sometimes the villain will stand on his head, other times on his hands. Here is another fixed expression that is even more highly variable: 1851: Joseph Clark when asked why the sentence of the law should not be pronounced against him said that he had no intention of taking the life of Gillespie, but that he cared as little about being hung as the judge did about taking a bad breakfast. Brooklyn Daily Eagle, September 29, 1851, p. 2, col. ? [Brooklyn Eagle on Line] 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more of the hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. Thos. J. Dimsdale, The Vigilantes of Montana. . . . Virginia City, M. T.: Montana Post Pr., 1866, p. 138 ("Classics of the Old West" reprint, Time-Life Books, n. d.) 1866: He [Bill Bunton] was very particular about the exact situation of the knot, and asked if he could not jump off himself. Being told that he could, he said that he didn't care for hanging, any more than he did for taking a drink of water; but he should like to have his neck broken. Thos. J. Dimsdale, The Vigilantes of Montana. . . . Virginia City, M. T.: Montana Post Pr., 1866 ("Classics of the Old West" reprint, Time-Life Books, n. d.) GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 24 21:03:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:03:13 -0500 Subject: "I'm (just) 'an' person" Message-ID: That's really interesting, Larry. Back in the day. didn't folk used to say, "I'm (just) _[ei]_ person," changing the pronunciation of "a" [@] to [ei] and placing the main stress thereupon? I've even heard folk say, "I'm (just) _[^]_ person. But, "I'm (just) *an* person"?. Whoa! Who'd a thunk it? -Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jan 24 21:22:41 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:22:41 -0500 Subject: a desperado's brag In-Reply-To: <1154454115783b.115783b1154454@nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2005, at 16:02, George Thompson wrote: > 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more of the > hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. That reminds me of another expression, supposedly said by men about to be hung. A year ago I found an item in a newspaper article posted to a genealogy email list for Wayne Co., Missouri, where my father's family is from. The article concerns two fellows are accused of murdering a man for $700. (I'm not related to any of them). The article (15 May 1902) ends thusly: > This is the blackest crime and darkest spot in the history of Wayne > County. Brown has as yet made no confession but is reported to have > said that if he is executed, he desires to be hanged 15 minutes before > 12 o’clock so as to get to hell in time for dinner. I liked the last remark, so I hit Google and found that Ruloff's Restaurant in Ithaca claims Edward Rulof said much the same thing. Dick Bailey (who published "Rogue Scholar," a book about the criminal and philologist Edward Ruloff, last year), says there's no record of Ruloff having said it. Then I found another link for a fellow in Wyoming who supposedly said it, too, 5 March 1886. So it's one of those fanciful pass-alongs, I guess. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 21:38:39 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:38:39 -0500 Subject: Callithumpians Message-ID: The OED has "callithumpian A. adj. Designating, pertaining to, or resembling, a band of discordant instruments. B. n. A member of a callithumpian band." Its earliest citation is 1836. It is not in HDAS 1810: The Serenade. We were promised, in a pompous manner, a grand serenade last evening by the Calathumpian Glee Society, from off the battery; and the weather being extremely fine, the citizens assembled in great numbers and paraded to and fro for a long time in anxious expectation of the promised treat. Columbian, August 15, 1810, p. 3, col. 1 1828: Callithumpian Band. [headline] ["boys furnished with conches, tin-horns, tongs, kettles, warming pans and shovels Commercial Advertiser, December 23, 1828, p. 2, col. 2. 1843: About 12 o'clock, however, a band of "Callithumpians," with tin pans for bass drums, and tin horns for trumpets, marched into the Tombs, and notwithstanding two of the Justices were within calling distance, took possession of the officer's large room, and began to discourse such music as was rarely heard by ears of mortals. NY Herald, January 2, 1843, p. 2, col. 4. 1853: A band of Callithumpian rowdies made last night hideous in the neighborhood of Eighth street and Fourth Avenue, by beating tin pans, blowing fish horns and howling and hooting like savages. Evening Mirror, January 4, 1853, p. 2, col. 1 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 21:51:38 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:51:38 -0500 Subject: cut = drunk Message-ID: I perhaps ought not to flaunt this one before the membership, since it isn't close to being an antedating, but in a way it is, since HDAS's citations were not caught in the wild. HDAS has cut = drunk from dictionaries: 1650 from Partridge's DSUE; 1698-9 from (I must admit) a genuine 17th C. dictionary, B. E.'s Dict of the Canting Crew; 1722, from Ben Franklin, but as quoted in Amer Speech; and 1748, from Farmer & Henley); then 1813-18 & 1821, from U. S. sources. *** On enquiry, I found these amateurs were assembled to see a Boxing- Match, between a Mr. Crosby and a Scotch baker. *** After waiting a considerable time to see the anticipated spectacle, the Scotch baker disappointed us. Crosby went away in triumph, half cut. *** Daily Advertiser, October 5, 1802, p. 3, col. 2 Go ahead and delete it, if you find it unworthy. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 21:52:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:52:08 -0800 Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") Message-ID: Thanks, George. 1824 is unambiguous, but could 1749 be "sly"? I've been fooled a few times by the long "s" myself. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Under "fly", adjective, HDAS discerns two related senses: sense 1a (= wide awake) *1724, *1821, *1850, &c. (all English); 1872 (US); sense 1b (= aware) *1811, *1812 (both English); 1839 (US) (I abbreviate the definitions and leave out the supporting quotations, but we all sleep with HDAS on the nightstand, don't we?) Whichever sense the first of these two below goes under, it is a pretty neat antedating in the U. S. The fact that it comes 50+ years before the 2nd earliest English citation is all right, too. 1749: That the fly Ones should not suspect you for a Courtier, you have been likewise very arch in giving us to understand, that you had been heretofore pleased to encourage and support the Party. N-Y Gazette Revived, January 16, 1748-9, p. 1, col. 1 [from a political diatribe, responding to last week's political diatribe] 1824: The carriages, wagons, horsemen, and pedestrians, who seemed to make Coney Island their place of destination, amounted to a considerable number; the roads were lined and adorned with them in every direction; the regulars were numerous -- the knowing ones were up, and the downy ones were all fly. The Emerald, October 16, 1824, p. 109, cols. 1-2. [a report on a prizefight] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 21:57:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:57:13 -0800 Subject: cut = drunk Message-ID: Given their scarcity in print, no 18th or 19th C. slang ex. is unworthy. Am familiar with "callithumpian," but OED dissuaded me from listing it as slang. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: cut = drunk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I perhaps ought not to flaunt this one before the membership, since it isn't close to being an antedating, but in a way it is, since HDAS's citations were not caught in the wild. HDAS has cut = drunk from dictionaries: 1650 from Partridge's DSUE; 1698-9 from (I must admit) a genuine 17th C. dictionary, B. E.'s Dict of the Canting Crew; 1722, from Ben Franklin, but as quoted in Amer Speech; and 1748, from Farmer & Henley); then 1813-18 & 1821, from U. S. sources. *** On enquiry, I found these amateurs were assembled to see a Boxing- Match, between a Mr. Crosby and a Scotch baker. *** After waiting a considerable time to see the anticipated spectacle, the Scotch baker disappointed us. Crosby went away in triumph, half cut. *** Daily Advertiser, October 5, 1802, p. 3, col. 2 Go ahead and delete it, if you find it unworthy. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 22:47:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:47:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Political Science" In-Reply-To: <20050124200603.GA23270@panix.com> Message-ID: political science (OED 1779) 1606 Edward Forset _A comparatiue discourse of the bodies natural and politique_ 85 (Early English Books Online) There bee sometimes such nimble headed Pragmatickes, that taking vpon them to be great entermedlers in state affaires, do for want of grounded knowledge in the politicall science, make many foule escapes. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 25 02:46:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:46:56 -0800 Subject: a desperado's brag Message-ID: Grant, Vaguely comparable, from http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.irish/browse_frm/thread/b18b31a07243cf8/6bf9567c8b057b0a?q=%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-11,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#6bf9567c8b057b0a "BTW, is it true that every Irish blessing has a corresponding curse? i.e. May you be a half hour in hell before God knows you're dead." Though I couldn't find it on the Net, I did once read or hear "in hell before God gets the news." JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: a desperado's brag ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 24, 2005, at 16:02, George Thompson wrote: > 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more of the > hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. That reminds me of another expression, supposedly said by men about to be hung. A year ago I found an item in a newspaper article posted to a genealogy email list for Wayne Co., Missouri, where my father's family is from. The article concerns two fellows are accused of murdering a man for $700. (I'm not related to any of them). The article (15 May 1902) ends thusly: > This is the blackest crime and darkest spot in the history of Wayne > County. Brown has as yet made no confession but is reported to have > said that if he is executed, he desires to be hanged 15 minutes before > 12 o�clock so as to get to hell in time for dinner. I liked the last remark, so I hit Google and found that Ruloff's Restaurant in Ithaca claims Edward Rulof said much the same thing. Dick Bailey (who published "Rogue Scholar," a book about the criminal and philologist Edward Ruloff, last year), says there's no record of Ruloff having said it. Then I found another link for a fellow in Wyoming who supposedly said it, too, 5 March 1886. So it's one of those fanciful pass-alongs, I guess. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 25 03:59:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:59:45 EST Subject: "Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" (Tom Lehrer?) Message-ID: You think life can't get worse, and then it always does. No heat at work. But it's the city, so they open up the place anyway. And I'm doing parking tickets for ten hours with a coat and a scarf on. And then I think, OK, at least I'll have tomorrow off to go to the Lincoln Center library for "Birth of a Nation" and "movie," and then the manager comes in and says they need me tomorrow, and they might have heat... ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- "IF HE TOLD YOU TO GO JUMP IN A LAKE, YOU'D DO THAT, TOO?" ... The river and lake versions are earlier than the Empire State Building and George Washington Bridge versions. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Grand Rapids Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2tOnVnenEfHSCj3mbiwjUonLnesTayQdBg==) Thursday, October 14, 1915 _Grand Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:grand_rapids+told+you+to+jump+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+told+you+to+jump+ AND) ...She TOLD me interposed Heap. "If she TOLD YOU TO JUMP in the lake would YOU.....who is only sixteen years old, TOLD at her home of how HEMP PROVES ITS.. ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _HILGERT'S MAGIC CURE.; Left Boy Helpless, Mother Testifies -- Boots Held Cheap Now. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=101832849&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106623241&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1906. p. 2 (1 page) ... "If I told you to jump into the river, would you do it?" ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "BESIDES THAT, MRS. LINCOLN, HOW DID YOU LIKE THE PLAY?" ... MRS. LINCOLN + LIKE THE PLAY--1,430 Google hits, 801 Google Groups hits MRS. LINCOLN + ENJOY THE PLAY--5,420 Google hits, 1,050 Google Groups hits ... This line was probably coined by Tom Lehrer. The American Heritage Dictionary of American Quotations contains not a single Tom Lehrer line. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has four Tom Lehrer lines, but "Mrs. Lincoln" isn't one of them. It's a bit off topic, but that fateful night went something like this. Mary Todd Lincoln was sitting around the house, playing with Lincoln logs. And Lincoln, good Republican family man that he was, was sitting with her, watching Spongebob Squarepants. So then Lincoln said, aw Mare!, let's go out to the Kennedy Center for LA CAGE. Some of my friends are in that... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Tasteful Good Looks in Scarsdale_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=283630092&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS= 1106621509&clientId=65882) By M.H. REED. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 29, 1983. p. WC25 (1 page) ... But, as the old line goes, "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" ... _The Serious, Mind-Bending Work of Laughing at Washington; THE OUTLOOK INTERVIEW; MARK RUSSELL, COMEDIAN, TALKS TO LEE MCHAEL KATZ _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=126055712&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD& RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106621051&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1983. p. C3 (1 page) ... Q: Are there emergencies or political actions that don't lend themselves to humor? A: Yes. I may feel like commenting about them when they've resolved themselves. That might be in a few days, it might be in a few months. Lincoln's assassination, that took what, 100 years. Then finally they said, "Well, outside of what happened, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" ... _Running First Women's Bank Is Now a Man's Job_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=120610910&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& VName=HNP&TS=1106620673&clientId=65882) By N.R. KLEINFIELD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 8, 1987. p. F6 (1 page) ... "Asking how the bank was doing aside from a lack of capital," Mr. Simon said, "is like saying, aside from the assassination, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2m5Fx6ttXJZLWKHt5aW2Y6knyVnYmGViGw==) Saturday, September 21, 1996 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+mrs.+Lincoln+and+like+the+play) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+mrs.+Lincoln+and+like+the+play) ...may ask. Right Except for that, MRS. LINCOLN, how did you LIKE THE PLAY? But.....pockets, he had built what seemed LIKE a viable political party. Now Perot.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 25 07:59:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:59:11 EST Subject: Smythe's "Beat 'em in alley" (1972); Fluffragette, Graphic Novel; "Moan Tones" Message-ID: SMYTHE'S "IF YOU CAN'T BEAT "EM IN THE ALLEY, YOU CAN'T BEAT "EM ON THE ICE" ... What a world. There's no hockey season and absolutely no one misses it. Yet, baseball players are the kings of the universe. And I work for just about nothing and have to beg (unsuccessfully) for heat. ... This hockey quotation is quite famous and deserves to be in a book of quotations. I can probably pin it down to the exact day using the digitized Toronto Star's "Pages of the Past." Anyone want to pay the five dollars for one day to do that and post it here? ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _'95 Wings avenge early playoff ouster with tournament upset_ (http://nhl.com/fancentral/fungames/quest/round1_series7_112604.html) NHL.com - Dec ... Maple Leafs owner Conn Smythe coined the expression, "You can't beat them on the ice if you can't beat them in the alley," and he instructed GM Frank Selke ... ... ... 25 March 1972, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 1: When Smythe was manager of the Tornto Maple Leafs (late '20s through early '50s), he set the theme of the tough hockey player. ... "If you can't beat 'em in the alley," Smythe would say, "you can't beat 'em on the ice." ... ... _Red Smith; Fun, Games and a Little Blood No Dumps in Piedras Negras The Hammer Is Nailed _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102750332&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106638375&clientId= 65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1975. p. 58 (1 page) ... "If you can't beat them in the alley, you can't beat them on the ice."--Conn Smythe, a patron saint of ice hockey. ... ... _Conn Smythe, 85, Former Owner Of Maple Leafs Team in Hockey; 'Call Me Conn' _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=111310792&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106638630&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 19, 1980. p. A31 (1 page) ... Once, when he thought players were not aggressive enough, he told them, "If you can't beat them out in the alley, you can't beat them in here on the ice." ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TEN FEET TALL AND BULLETPROOF ... TEN FEET TALL AND BULLETPROOF--4,420 Google hits, 287 Google Groups hits ... I guess Travis Tritt coined it with the 1994 song. I don't have FACTIVA handy. ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _TRAVIS TRITT LYRICS - Ten Feet Tall And Bulletproof_ (http://www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis/027.htm) ... Ten Feet Tall And Bulletproof (Travis Tritt) I'ma full grown man That's plain to see But nowhere near as full grown As I'd like to be But I'll find a bar And I ... www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis/027.htm - 21k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:8cwTpV4r87QJ:www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis/027.htm+"te n+feet+tall+and+bulletproof"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis /027.htm) (NEWSPAPERAR ... _Mountain Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2ojYp1oVUXRSYmFvuBH3lwgYi59hdc/tUg==) Friday, October 20, 1995 _Placerville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:placerville+ten+feet+tall+and+bulletproof) _California_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+ten+feet+tall+and+bulletproof) ...TAHOE Travis Tritt brings his "TEN FEET TALL AND BULLETPROOF tour to.....m. today, Monday, Tuesday AND Thursday AND at noon on Saturday. Sunday AND.. ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- FLUFFRAGETTE,; GRAPHIC NOVEL; ... I checked "coined the" on Google News. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _Since you asked_ (http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2005/0120/local/stories/20local.htm) Mail Tribune, OR - Jan 20, ... Columnist Cherri Gilham has coined the term "fluffragette" for a woman who presents herself as hip and contemporary but who seeks to control men through such ... ... _Post-feminist author to speak_ (http://www.courier-journal.com/features/books/2005/01/16/speak.html) Louisville Courier-Journal, KY - Jan 16, Cris Mazza, who with co-editor Jeffrey DeShell coined the term "chick lit" in 1995, will read from her latest novel, "Homeland," at 7 pm Wednesday at ... ... _Serpas in the spotlight_ (http://www.tennessean.com/government/archives/05/01/63918063.shtml?Element_ID=63918063) The Tennessean, TN - Jan 10, ... He coined the phrase ''boo-boo lip'' — as in, ''We aren't going to tell you what we can't do; you won't see any boo-boo lip from us.''. ... ... _Will Eisner, a Pioneer of Comic Books, Is Dead at 87_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/books/05eisner.html) New York Times - Ja ... NC Christopher Couch, one of the authors of "The Will Eisner Companion" (DC Comics, 2004), noted that "Eisner independently coined the term graphic novel in ... ... _Medicare Looms As Budget, Logistical Issue for States_ (http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/4-12-27MedicareStates.htm) SeniorJournal.com, TX - Dec 27, ... Instead, states will get hit with what’s been coined the “clawback” provision, which will require states to finance a large share of the federal drug ... ... _Early Detection, Alerting Medical Authorities Can Combat Death Due ..._ (http://press.arrivenet.com/edu/article.php/546305.html) ArriveNet (press release), CO - Dec 2 ... "In 1999, a doctor wrote an editorial for a medical journal in which he coined the terms, "Merry Christmas coronary" and the "Happy New Year heart attack ... ... _'Rejuveniles' treasure childhood thrills_ (http://www.fox11az.com/news/other/stories/KMSB-20041222-dnbp-rejuvenile.35fffb08.html) KMSB, AZ - Dec 22, ... Los Angeles-based writer Christopher Noxon says he was researching a book on the subject when he coined the term "rejuveniles." Mr. Noxon, 36, met his wife ... ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- MOAN TONES ... In my job, you tell people to turn of all cell phones, and before you can finish that sentence, a cell phone goes off. A porn star cell phone moan tone. Just what the world needed. ... ... _http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000267028272/#comments_ (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000267028272/#comments) ... Everyone needs a moantone Posted Jan 20, 2005, 11:53 AM ET by Joshua Fruhlinger ... We didn’t say it. Jenna Jameson did. The sultry sex machine of the adult film biz is teaming up with Wicked Wireless to provide Latin American cell phone users with things like boobalicious wallpapers and ringtones that moan (” moantones,” as they call them). Why this hasn’t happened before and why it is happening in Latin America we’re not sure. In Jenna’s words, which are priceless, “We’ll provide [moantones] in the universal language of sexy sighs recognized around the world but with our own personal touch. The technology is way beyond most of us, but the bottom line is that you’ll able to hear the other Jenna’s Web Girls moan and me when your phone starts to ring. We’ll also provide audio content in Spanish plus photos and text features ... ... Posted Jan 20, 2005, 4:15 PM ET by _Streeter D_ (http://www.moantones.com/) Moantones are not really new and neither is Jenna Jameson. If you would like some real news about "moantones" there is an article by the two Canadian lads who invented the term in 2002 and who started the website in 2003. The interview is at _http://www.totalmanipulation.com/moan_tones.html_ (http://www.totalmanipulation.com/moan_tones.html) I have moantones on my phone and only use them sometimes on the weekend as ringers. Otherwise I download truetones or something besides the bibbity bip on my V220. I have to agree with the first comment though...this is not really news as much as Wicked trying to promote themselves. Peace Out Streeter D From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 25 08:33:35 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:33:35 -0500 Subject: The Language of Baseball (1910) Message-ID: Found this on Newspaperarchive... it's extracted from "The Humming Bird" by Owen Johnson (1910), which I see is included in _Dead Balls and Double Curves: An Anthology of Early Baseball Fiction_ (SIU Press, 2004): http://www.siu.edu/~siupress/titles/s04_titles/strecker_dead.htm Notable not just for all the baroque baseballese, but also for the innovative affixation of "-wise" and "-sburg" to players' names ("De Soto-wise", "Waladersburg"). ----------- _Post Standard_ (Syracuse, NY), June 18, 1910, p. 4/4 The Language of Baseball In the little book, "The Humming Bird" (Baker & Taylor), a small American named Dennis de Brian de Boru Finnegan tells how the great American game is played and presents to his prep school paper an account of the match between Lawrenceville and Pennington. One of the faculty asks him to explain. He does so: "'Lawrenceville, 5; Pennington, 4,' said Finnegan. In the breakaway Tyrell, first to dust the rubber for the Chaperons." "Chaperons?" said Bingham, puzzled. "It's co-ed, you know, sir. 'Chaperons' gives rather a touch of humor, don't you think?" "'In the breakaway Tyrell, the first to dust the rubber for the Chaperons, selected a hole in the circumambient and poked a buzzer over short --'" "Go slow, Finnegan." "Yes, sir -- 'Minds soaked a clover kisser to the far station, which Walader kittened to and whipped to first --'" "I don't get that Finnegan." "What is it, sir?" "Well, the whole episode is a trifle hazy. What is a clover kisser?" "Why, a daisy scorcher, sir." "You mean a grounder?" "A certain kind of grounder, sir, very low -- one that doesn't rise from the grass. Quite different from a broncho-buster or a dew-drop, sir." "I'm afraid I have specialized too much in medieval English; what is this thing you call a broncho buster?" "A broncho-buster is a grounder, or rather a tobasco grounder, that bucks and kicks." "Very lucid, Finnegan, and a 'dew-drop'?" "Why, that's a weakling -- a toddler -- all luck, you know." "Ah, yes. Now let me think, Walader stopped the daisy scorcher --" "Clover-kisser, sir." "Exactly. So Walader stopped it and retired the man at first?" "Why, yes, sir." "Proceed, Finnegan, proceed." "Tyrell, who had purloined the second perch, started to ramble to Waladersburg when Jackson stung the planet De Soto-wise for a safety, but our iridescent little body snatcher lassoed it and slaughtered the rally with a staccato lunge to the midway that completed the double demise." "Ah, yes. that is simpler," said the Master, gravely. "Now for Lawrenceville." "De Soto streaked the empyrean blue with a white winger that was strangled in center." "A fly, Finnegan?" "Yes, sir." "Just an ordinary fly?" "Oh, no, sir, a rather high one." "Continue." "Hickey ticked off a slow freight to the pretzel counter and cannon to first just ahead of Tyrell's slap." "Let us go back." "Why, what's wrong, sir?" "Ticked off a slow freight?" "Bunted a slow one." "Naturally -- but pretzel counter?" "The curve box -- the pitcher." "Of course!" "Stevens frisked the lozenge once to the back woods and then unmuzzled a humming bird to the prairies which nested in Jackson's twigs --" "I don't like unmuzzled." "I could say uncorked, sir." "No, I don't fancy uncorked, either." "Unhitched, then." "Never unhitched. The fact is, the use of the words humming bird in this connection does not seem to me appropriate at all." Finnegan looked solemn and said with difficulty: "Please, sir, I would like to keep that expression, sir. I'm rather proud of that. A humming bird is a liner, you know, that hums, Please, sir, I hope you'll let me have that in." ----------- --Ben Zimmer From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Jan 25 09:36:05 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:36:05 +0000 Subject: Beverage architecture In-Reply-To: <200501200631.j0K6VH56015325@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the latter if I used more than one component). Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, but also repair/rebuild them! 'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' 'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' -Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 130 From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 25 10:05:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:05:52 -0500 Subject: pretzel curve (1886), pretzel battery (1887) Message-ID: * pretzel curve (originally referring to the curve ball of Charles "Pretzel" Getzein of the Detroit Wolverines in the 1880s; later applied to other, often German-American, pitchers) 1886 _Daily News_ (Frederick, Md.) 26 Jul. 4/5 The Chicago's describe the course of the ball from his [sc. Charles Getzein's] hand to their bats as a "pretzel curve." 1886 _Atlanta Constitution_ 27 Jul. 8/4 Wells's pretzel curves were too much for the Memphis yesterday, and they gave the champions another victory. 1886 _Atlanta Constitution_ 17 Aug. 8/4 (heading) Wells, the pretzel curver, retires the Charlestons. (ibid.) Kappel, Phillips and Brosnan, the heavy hitters of the team, went down before the midget's pretzel curves. 1890 _Chicago Tribune_ 1 Aug. 6/1 (heading) Stein's pretzel curves. (ibid.) Perhaps he copied his curves from the twists of a pretzel; at any rate he can make a ball take all the curves peculiar to that German article of diet. 1890 _Middletown Daily Press_ (N.Y.) 10 Sep. 1/6 Getzein's pretzel curves were not so effective. 1891 _Chicago Tribune_ 22 Aug. 7/1 Charley Getzein, he of the famous "pretzel" curves, was in the box for the visitors. Those who remembered the weird twists that Charley carried with him when he was twirling the old Detroits into the championship felt that it would at least take some time for the Colts to solve the intricacies of those "pretzel" curves. 1894 _Atlanta Constitution_ 14 May 5/4 But the Atlanta boys being from Cincinnati say they are onto "pretzel" curves and will teach Mr. Klopf a lesson he'll never forget. 1894 _New York Times_ 16 Aug. 8/5 Breitenstein, a youth with a strong left arm and pretzel curves, prevented the New Yorks from winning a game yesterday. 1897 _Times Democrat_ (Lima, Ohio) 14 Jun. 4/3 Charley Mooney and R.T. Wilmot dispensed their choicest assortment of pretzel curves. 1897 _Times Democrat_ (Lima, Ohio) 18 Aug. 5/2 Mr. Blackburn kept the batters dodging by the pretzel curves that he put on the sphere. 1899 _Trenton Evening Times_ (N.J.) 15 Apr. 6/2 George Reed, of the Rogers, has one of Griffith's pretzel curves this season, which he claims will fool some of the hitters. 1905 _New York Times_ 13 Oct. 6/1 (heading) Philadelphians unable to stand against his pretzel curves. (ibid.) That professor of occult speed and pretzel curve, Christie Mathewson. 1906 _Bucks County Gazette_ (Pa.) 31 Aug. 3/7 He had grape vine shoots, pretzel curves and fade-away drops. Cohan pitched so many fancy curves that his wrist got twisted and had to finish the game by tossing jew-drops. 1908 _Chicago Tribune_ 31 Aug. 6/1 No longer will Chicago's fans struggle with the pretzel curves of the great sou'paw's patronymic. 1914 _New York Times_ 5 Sep. 8/1 Ruelbach then went through all the motions of uncurling a pretzel curve with nothing in his hand but his fist. 1916 _Lancaster Daily Gazette_ (Ohio) 11 Aug. 2/3 Baus' pretzel curves could not puzzle the printers. 1934 _Washington Post_ 13 Aug. 11/5 The Earl started to pitch -- throwing those pretzel curves at Foxx. 1938 _Nebraska State Journal_ 8 Oct. (Sports) 1/6 Marcellus Monte Pearson, a burly right hander who can toss his pretzel curve thru the eye of a needle. 1942 _Los Angeles Times_ 6 May 20/7 Jimmy Wallace, a tiny, apple-cheeked boy with a winning smile and a pretzel curve. 1951 _Chicago Tribune_ 3 Apr. III-1/4 Marvin Rotblatt, the lefty with the pretzel curve. ------ * pretzel battery (Charles Geitzen and Charles Ganzel of the Detroit Wolverines, 1886-88, or various other German-American pitcher/catcher combinations) 1887 _Daily Northwestern_ (Oshkosh, Wisc.) 19 May 1/2 Krock and Gastfield, Oshkosh's "pretzel" battery, verify everything said in their favor. 1887 _Daily Northwestern_ (Oshkosh, Wisc.) 25 May 1/2 The Blues will present their pretzel battery -- Lang and Simpson. 1894 _Chicago Tribune_ 10 Nov. 6/1 Among the jurors is Charles Getzein, the professional baseball player, famous some years ago as the pitcher in the "pretzel" battery of Getzein and Ganzel. 1895 _Washington Post_ 23 Aug. 6/1 The original "pretzel battery" consisted of Pitcher Getzein and Catcher Gas[t]field, and not of Getzein and Ganzel, as many suppose. 1896 _Chicago Tribune_ 31 Aug. 8/2 Charley Getzien, the ex-league pitcher, and at one time a member of the famous Detroit "pretzel" bettery of Getzein and Ganzel. 1905 _Atlanta Constitution_ 27 Dec. 9/3 The dissolution of the pretzel battery came long ago. After Breitenstein left Heine Peitz remained the star of the catching class here. 1908 _New York Times_ 18 Apr. 7/1 The work of the pair [sc. Schlitzer and Schreckengost] yesterday indicated that there will be another pretzel battery to achieve success similar to that attained by Getzein and Ganzel years ago in St. Louis [sic]. 1909 _Mansfield News_ (Ohio) 3 Sep. 3/1 However, the soft pedal end of the pretzel battery, "Hezzy Schreck" Breymaier will also be in the game. 1909 _Washington Post_ 5 Sep. S2/5 A noted team of bygone days was composed of Getzein and Ganzel -- the pretzel battery they were called when they played for the Detroits in 1887. 1914 _Clearfield Progress_ (Pa.) 5 Aug. 3/2 Another pretzel battery. Der Herr Pitcher Schauffalaufe and der Herr Catcher Ehlminghle have signed with Manager Herzog of the Cincinnati Reds. 1925 _Chicago Tribune_ 20 Jul. 21/5 Getzien and Ganzel, playing for Detroit in the 80s, were known as the "pretzel battery." 1943 _Mansfield News Journal_ (Ohio) 18 Jun. 12/1 We called Osborne and Delahanty the Shamrock Battery, to distinguish them from the Pretzel Battery of Petie Sommers, pitcher, and Fritz Grumbling, catcher. 1944 _New York Times_ 24 Aug. 14/6 There were some great names on the St. Louis rosters in those early years -- Ted Breitenstein and Heinie Peitz (the Pretzel Battery). ------ --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 25 10:16:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:16:57 -0500 Subject: pretzel curve (1886), pretzel battery (1887) Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:05:52 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >* pretzel curve (originally referring to the curve ball of Charles >"Pretzel" Getzein of the Detroit Wolverines in the 1880s; later applied to >other, often German-American, pitchers) > >1886 _Daily News_ (Frederick, Md.) 26 Jul. 4/5 The Chicago's describe the >course of the ball from his [sc. Charles Getzein's] hand to their bats as >a "pretzel curve." More on Getzein's curveball here: ----- http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_18/outXVIII05/outXVIII05n.pdf The Theory and Introduction of Curve Pitching. O.P. Caylor, Outing, August, 1891, No. 5, p. 404, col. 2 The early idea that it was possible to curve the ball either to the right or left by the use of the same hand was, of course, a physiological impossibility. ... But the belief in the double curve still exists among the more ignorant ball players. As an instance of it we have the nickname of "the Pretzel Pitcher," given to Getzein by players who imagine the ball from his hands comes at them with the curves of a pretzel. ----- --Ben Zimmer From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Jan 25 15:52:42 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:52:42 -0800 Subject: Beverage architecture Message-ID: Never heard that. Fritz J >>> neil at TYPOG.CO.UK 01/25/05 01:36AM >>> As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the latter if I used more than one component). Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, but also repair/rebuild them! 'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' 'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' -Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 130 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 25 16:03:26 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:03:26 -0500 Subject: Beverage architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:52 AM -0800 1/25/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >Never heard that. >Fritz J > >>>> neil at TYPOG.CO.UK 01/25/05 01:36AM >>> >As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the >latter if I used more than one component). > >Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, but also >repair/rebuild them! very odd. in the old days, refreshing them was enough. Well, this way it does sound as though we're burning more calories when we do it--"The snow was too deep to go out to exercise, but I worked out rebuilding my drinks." larry > >'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' > >'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' > >-Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 130 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 25 16:13:27 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:13:27 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) In-Reply-To: <20050123050055.D84B0B29B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer posits: >>>>> Perhaps this usage of "second-hand" is better understood as a shortened form of "second-hand nature". Google throws up dozens of examples... <<<<< That just pushes the question back one stage further. "Second-hand nature" is one I have never heard before, and makes me ask whether *it* originated as a blend of "second-hand" and "second nature". And that still wouldn't mean that this meaning of "second-hand" hadn't had multiple origins. -- Mark [I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is perfect.] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jan 25 17:07:21 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:07:21 -0500 Subject: a desperado's brag Message-ID: I've seen on t-shirts a supposed "Irish" blessing, to the effect that "may St. Peter welcome you into heaven a half hour before the devil knows you're dead". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:46 pm Subject: Re: a desperado's brag > Grant, > Vaguely comparable, from > http://groups- > beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.irish/browse_frm/thread/b18b31a07243cf 8/6bf9567c8b057b0a?q=%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22&_done=% 2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D% 26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-11,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg% 26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#6bf9567c8b057b0a > "BTW, is it true that every Irish blessing has a corresponding curse? > > i.e. May you be a half hour in hell before God knows you're dead." > > Though I couldn't find it on the Net, I did once read or hear "in > hell before God gets the news." > > JL > > > Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------- > ------------ > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: a desperado's brag > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > On Jan 24, 2005, at 16:02, George Thompson wrote: > > 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more > of the > > hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. > > That reminds me of another expression, supposedly said by men > about to > be hung. A year ago I found an item in a newspaper article posted > to a > genealogy email list for Wayne Co., Missouri, where my father's family > is from. The article concerns two fellows are accused of murdering a > man for $700. (I'm not related to any of them). The article (15 May > 1902) ends thusly: > > > This is the blackest crime and darkest spot in the history of Wayne > > County. Brown has as yet made no confession but is reported to have > > said that if he is executed, he desires to be hanged 15 minutes > before> 12 o?clock so as to get to hell in time for dinner. > > I liked the last remark, so I hit Google and found that Ruloff's > Restaurant in Ithaca claims Edward Rulof said much the same thing. > DickBailey (who published "Rogue Scholar," a book about the > criminal and > philologist Edward Ruloff, last year), says there's no record of > Ruloffhaving said it. Then I found another link for a fellow in > Wyoming who > supposedly said it, too, 5 March 1886. So it's one of those fanciful > pass-alongs, I guess. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 25 17:41:48 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:41:48 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: <20050122050143.76D66B25F1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the details", which I think I have seen at least as often. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Jan 25 18:41:40 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:41:40 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <200501241726.j0OHQsVg027643@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 24/1/05 5:26 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > on Jan 24, 2005, at 8:49 AM, i wrote: > >> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: >> >>> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute >>> ass. >>> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >>> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >>> >>> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, >>> 1969? > > probably the result of cycling through (near-)synonyms, a common > practice of inexperienced writers, of those who have been taught not to > repeat words (but haven't been taught to maintain a consistent tone), > and of writers in certain genres (for instance, porn/erotica). in two > sentences we have "ass" and "rear". "bottom":, "posterior", > "buttocks", "butt", etc. might well be lurking in the neighborhood. > "hirsute", meanwhile, looks like an elegant substitute for "hairy", > which in this context would a bit too vividly physical; "hairy ass" > would be right out, though "hirsute posterior" might have worked. > > (eventually i'll report on some discussion from soc.motss a while back > on "cock" vs. "dick"; a number of americans reported that "cock" seemed > more sexual to them than "dick".) 'Dick' doesn't even get a mention in 'The Anonymous Pornographic Genre: Language, Sequences, Plots, Publishing and Pressures', Other Scholars, New York, Number 1, April 1973 - though the writers do observe that: "Prick is obsolete because of its popular usage denoting stupidity, foolishness." I take it that the unfamiliar word below is another porn-writer's attempt at erudition. Not in my 2-vol Shorter Oxford, but I presume it means 'sheep's-eyes'. 'With a supreme effort she managed to shift her gaze from Dick's arm [under Rene's skirt]; as she looked at Rene's face and saw the agnuopic stare of those green eyes and the wet, parted lips, she received confirmation of the woman's enjoyment.' - Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 129 From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 19:15:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:15:19 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 12:41 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the > details", > which I think I have seen at least as often. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > Mark's version with "the devil" is the only version that I've ever read. (This is strictly a literary allusion for me.) -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 25 19:31:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:31:34 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes much more fascinating. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the details", which I think I have seen at least as often. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 19:38:44 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:38:44 -0500 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$68e42b@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 1:41 PM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > on 24/1/05 5:26 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: Richly hirsute >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > --> - >> >> on Jan 24, 2005, at 8:49 AM, i wrote: >> >>> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: >>> >>>> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute >>>> ass. >>>> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >>>> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >>>> >>>> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, >>>> 1969? > >> >> probably the result of cycling through (near-)synonyms, a common >> practice of inexperienced writers, of those who have been taught not >> to >> repeat words (but haven't been taught to maintain a consistent tone), >> and of writers in certain genres (for instance, porn/erotica). in two >> sentences we have "ass" and "rear". "bottom":, "posterior", >> "buttocks", "butt", etc. might well be lurking in the neighborhood. >> "hirsute", meanwhile, looks like an elegant substitute for "hairy", >> which in this context would a bit too vividly physical; "hairy ass" >> would be right out, though "hirsute posterior" might have worked. >> >> (eventually i'll report on some discussion from soc.motss a while back >> on "cock" vs. "dick"; a number of americans reported that "cock" >> seemed >> more sexual to them than "dick".) > > 'Dick' doesn't even get a mention in 'The Anonymous Pornographic Genre: > Language, Sequences, Plots, Publishing and Pressures', Other Scholars, > New > York, Number 1, April 1973 - though the writers do observe that: > "Prick is > obsolete because of its popular usage denoting stupidity, foolishness." > > > I take it that the unfamiliar word below is another porn-writer's > attempt at > erudition. Not in my 2-vol Shorter Oxford, but I presume it means > 'sheep's-eyes'. > > 'With a supreme effort she managed to shift her gaze from Dick's arm > [under > Rene's skirt]; as she looked at Rene's face and saw the agnuopic stare > of > those green eyes and the wet, parted lips, she received confirmation > of the > woman's enjoyment.' > - Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, > 129 > My word! This stuff makes "Ten-Four: Sex Life of a Cop" from ca.1960 read like Shakespeare! For those of us who learned our English south of the Mason-Dixon Line, continually having to remember to read "cock" as "dick" renders the former *far* less erotic than "dick," I'd wager. All pornographers should be forced to use "love muzzle." Then, even when it's overcorrected to "love muscle," it's still less jarring than the Northern "misuse" of "cock." -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 19:56:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:56:13 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. > > JL But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition is no easy task. -Wilson > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the > details", > which I think I have seen at least as often. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 25 20:03:06 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:03:06 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: <20050125193134.33819.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the "devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows 18,000 hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of "god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas "devil is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like one of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in import. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 20:22:41 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:22:41 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 3:03 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >> much more fascinating. > > I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the > "devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows > 18,000 > hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of > "god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas > "devil > is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like > one > of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in > import. > > Fred Shapiro How old would you guess the "God" version to be? Back in the very early '80's, I was an assistant librarian in an academic architectural library for about three years, without ever hearing - my housemate was a student at that school of architecture and my girlfriend was one of my colleagues - or reading the "God" version. On the other hand, I've been familiar with the "devil" version practically since I got past seeing Dick and Jane run in the mid '40's. -Wilson Gray > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Jan 25 21:04:09 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:04:09 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <200501251938.j0PJcuC8009589@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 25/1/05 7:38 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > > For those of us who learned our English south of the Mason-Dixon Line, > continually having to remember to read "cock" as "dick" renders the > former *far* less erotic than "dick," I'd wager. All pornographers > should be forced to use "love muzzle." Then, even when it's > overcorrected to "love muscle," it's still less jarring than the > Northern "misuse" of "cock." > > -Wilson Gray And I expect that now readers will realise that 'cocksucker' is not an implication of homosexuality, but rather of supposed male 'weakness' in that the object of the allegation would (pre-New-Man enlightenment) stoop to performing the 'genital kiss.' -Neil Crawford From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jan 25 21:33:07 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:33:07 -0500 Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") -- a retraction Message-ID: Jon Lighter asked me whether I was sure that the 1749 passage given below read "fly" and not "sly" (with a long s). This is a trap I am wary of, but this time I got caught. On re-examination, the first letter looks like an "f", but the horizontal stroke pretty clearly is no the left side of the rising stroke; it isn't a cross-stroke. So it is a long s, and the word is "sly". Sorry about that. These 18th C. chaps must have had pretty sharp eyes. In addition: the passage came from the sort of political slanging that ordinarily I don't look at, but somehow the supposed "fly" caught my eye. I skimmed the essay to see whether there was any other slang words in it, and all the rest was in the chastest vocabulary you could wish for, so that "fly" would have been incongruous, which should have occurred to me at the time. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Thompson Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:49 pm Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") > Under "fly", adjective, HDAS discerns two related senses: sense 1a (= > wide awake) *1724, *1821, *1850, &c. (all English); 1872 (US); > sense 1b > (= aware) *1811, *1812 (both English); 1839 (US) (I abbreviate the > definitions and leave out the supporting quotations, but we all sleep > with HDAS on the nightstand, don't we?) > > Whichever sense the first of these two below goes under, it is a > prettyneat antedating in the U. S. The fact that it comes 50+ > years before > the 2nd earliest English citation is all right, too. > > 1749: That the fly Ones should not suspect you for a Courtier, you > have been likewise very arch in giving us to understand, that you had > been heretofore pleased to encourage and support the Party. > N-Y Gazette Revived, January 16, 1748-9, p. 1, col. 1 > [from a > political diatribe, responding to last week's political diatribe] > > 1824: The carriages, wagons, horsemen, and pedestrians, who > seemed to > make Coney Island their place of destination, amounted to a > considerable number; the roads were lined and adorned with them in > every direction; the regulars were numerous -- the knowing ones were > up, and the downy ones were all fly. > The Emerald, October 16, 1824, p. 109, cols. 1-2. [a report on a > prizefight] > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 25 21:43:27 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:43:27 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:03 PM -0500 1/25/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >> much more fascinating. > >I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the >"devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows 18,000 >hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of >"god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas "devil >is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like one >of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in >import. > One factor may be the alliterative effect of the "devil in the details" version, along the lines of "give the devil his due". Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 25 22:02:28 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:02:28 -0800 Subject: innovations in headlinese Message-ID: over on the newsgroup sci.lang, ron hardin (rnhardin at mindspring.com) posts about some innovative Washington Post headlines (possibly from the same headline writer): ----- Re: To May Date: Sun Jan 23 01:27:41 PST 2005 Ind. Fire Said May Take Days to Burn Out http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11424-2005Jan15.html? ABTest=blurb_A Seepage Said Likely Didn't Cause Oil Spill LOS ANGELES - A mysterious oil spill that killed hundreds of birds on the Southern California coast was probably not caused by natural seepage from the ocean floor, investigators said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29901-2005Jan22.html? ABTest=blurb_A ------ these are of the form SUBJECT said VPfinite. a follow-up misses the point (note hardin's header "To May") by citing ordinary headlinese, of the form SUBJECT said PREDICATIVE understood as meaning something like 'SUBJECT is said to be PREDICATIVE', that is as involving a passive of a Subject-to-Object Raising (SOR) clause with a copular VP. ----- From: Bart Mathias Re: To May Date: Sun Jan 23 19:34:13 PST 2005 "Ind. Fire Said Difficult to Extinguish" and "Seepage Said Not Likely Cause of Oil Spill" wouldn't have caught my attention. How different are they, really? ----- the innovative headlines look like a syntactic generalization from the everday ones, which are pretty straightforwardly "telegraphic"; copular "to be" is omitted. in fact, they're two steps away from the everyday ones. ordinary headlinese doesn't allow the omission of "to" with non-copular VPs in SOR passives: (1) Risk Said Increase With Age 'the risk is said to increase with age' if things like this were possible, they'd be a source for extension to finite VPs, as in (2) Risk Said Increases With Age (3) Risk Said Can Increase With Age. but they're not possible, so the reanalysis of headlinese looks like it was direct, with "said" in (4) Fire Said Difficult to Extinguish (mis)taken to be a kind of reportive particle: 'it is said: Fire Difficult to Extinguish'. or more generally, "SUBJECT said XP" is understood as something like 'it is said: HEADLINE-CLAUSE-OF-FORM-SUBJECT+XP". then since (5) Risk Increases With Age (6) Risk Can Increase With Age are perfectly fine headline clauses, headlines (2) and (3) are licensed. and so are the Washington Post examples. note that this story depends on the headline writer(s) *not* treating things like (4) as telegraphic. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), wondering if verbs other than "said" ("reported", "claimed", "alleged", etc.) can go the same route From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 25 22:04:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:04:51 -0600 Subject: google video Message-ID: Google has an experimental feature where they are capturing the Closed Caption feed for several channels/networks, and letting you do searches on them. This opens up a whole 'nother corpus of spoken English. http://video.google.com/ From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 22:05:56 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:05:56 -0500 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 4:04 PM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > on 25/1/05 7:38 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> >> For those of us who learned our English south of the Mason-Dixon Line, >> continually having to remember to read "cock" as "dick" renders the >> former *far* less erotic than "dick," I'd wager. All pornographers >> should be forced to use "love muzzle." Then, even when it's >> overcorrected to "love muscle," it's still less jarring than the >> Northern "misuse" of "cock." >> >> -Wilson Gray > > And I expect that now readers will realise that 'cocksucker' is not an > implication of homosexuality, but rather of supposed male 'weakness' > in that > the object of the allegation would (pre-New-Man enlightenment) stoop to > performing the 'genital kiss.' > -Neil Crawford > As a matter of actual fact, a woman once asked me how it could be that "cocksucker" is an an insult when her own experience was that men loved to have their cocks sucked. This happened after I had become with the Northern/White-English usage. Otherwise, such a question would have been empty of content. When I was familiar with only the Southern/Black-English usage, the only meaning that "cocksucker" had was that of "cunnilinctor" and it had not the slightest insinuation of weakness. Any one of the very few who claimed to be a cocksucker was regarded with shock and awe and respect, as one who had the nerve, the desire, the willingness, and the skill to do whatever it took to fetch a girl or a woman to climax. In order to combat this, a guy who didn't have the nerve to perform cunnilingus or, at least, the balls to claim that he had (FWIW, the first time that I saw this seriously discussed in print, the word used was "cunnilinctus"), would say, "When I come, I don't come from the lip. When I come, I come from the hip!" As any fool can plainly see, this was a pretty lame comment that never succeeded in drawing the attention of the clique away from the reputed cocksucker, in this case, one Marion Thames ([tEmz] => [tImz]), who had a great name, great looks, and strong conversation. -Wilson Gray From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Jan 25 22:08:36 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:08:36 -0600 Subject: Beverage architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was a full time bartender in the late 60s, in Chicago and "build" was common then Laurence Horn wrote: > At 7:52 AM -0800 1/25/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > >> Never heard that. >> Fritz J >> >>>>> neil at TYPOG.CO.UK 01/25/05 01:36AM >>> >>>> >> As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the >> latter if I used more than one component). >> >> Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, >> but also >> repair/rebuild them! > > > very odd. in the old days, refreshing them was enough. Well, this > way it does sound as though we're burning more calories when we do > it--"The snow was too deep to go out to exercise, but I worked out > rebuilding my drinks." > > larry > >> >> 'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' >> >> 'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' >> >> -Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, >> 130 > > > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jan 25 22:07:04 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:07:04 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know how old it is, but the German equivalent, "Der Teufel steckt im Detail," is a staple in books of German idioms, and I've never heard *"(Der Herr) Gott steckt im Detail." It doesn't sound like a recent borrowing, nor is alliteration a factor, and the presence of the same idiom in both languages makes me think they must both go back a ways. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:43 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 3:03 PM -0500 1/25/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >>> much more fascinating. >> >> I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the >> "devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows 18,000 >> hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of >> "god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas "devil >> is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like one >> of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in >> import. >> > One factor may be the alliterative effect of the "devil in the > details" version, along the lines of "give the devil his due". > > Larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 25 22:28:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:28:56 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: So "God is in the details" means exactly the opposite. If there is an opposite. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. > > JL But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition is no easy task. -Wilson > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the > details", > which I think I have seen at least as often. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 25 22:40:09 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:40:09 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: I think the meaning of the two phrases is pretty close, though not identical. "God is in the details" is typically applied in artistic contexts (particularly in architecture) and means that great art is achieved through attention to detail. "The devil is in the details" means that close attention to detail is required to find problems with a complex proposal or arrangement. I believe that the latter phrase achieved broad popularization in the 1980s in political contexts, particularly with respect to arms control treaties and tax legislation, in both of which areas very close attention indeed to the details is required to find the devil. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:29 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) So "God is in the details" means exactly the opposite. If there is an opposite. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. > > JL But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition is no easy task. -Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 01:55:17 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:55:17 EST Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > > Song of the South is WAY PI. "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, >since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be >released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. >Which is a shame, because despite its antediluvian portrayal >of 19th century Blacks, it is a good movie. Thanks to both of you for answering my question about the PC-ness of "Song of the South". Do you happen to know the PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo"? - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 02:01:43 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:01:43 EST Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:29:36 -0800, John McChesney-Young quoted > The verb doesn't appear here, though. On the other hand, another > (British-only?) term I'd not seen before does, apparently unusual > enough to warrant quotes: > > Delegates from the drinks industry, the police, public health, the > drug and alcohol advisory sector and local authorities heard how > happy hours, alcopops, growing affluence and the British obsession > with "necking it" as the night goes on all play a part. > > (end quotes) > > Another British article defines it by context: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2004/02/14/ > paul14.xml&sSheet=/education/2004/02/14/ixteright.html > > Sipping it, not necking it > (Filed: 14/02/2004) > > Students are as keen as ever on drinking - but more want quality, not > quantity, says Simon Brooke. "Necking" certainly seems to mean "drinking from [the neck of] a bottle instead of from a glass", i.e. "chug-a-lugging". I have a 1963 citation for "drinking from the neck" if anyone be interested. Did "happy hour" originate in the US and get exported to Britain, or vice versa, or what? And what pray tell is an "alcopop"? (and how long will it take Barry "Alco" Popik to find an antedating?) - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 02:06:58 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:06:58 EST Subject: Antedating of "Computer" Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:56:43 -0500, Fred Shapiro writes > > I have previously antedated "computer" in its modern (machine) sense. Could you please give us the citation? The earliest I know of is 1943 (from Goldstine discussing the ENIAC committee) and there is no reason to conclude this was an original coinage. (I will be happy to repost this cite if anyone asks). - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 02:45:23 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:45:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > Could you please give us the citation? The earliest I know of is 1943 (from > Goldstine discussing the ENIAC committee) and there is no reason to conclude > this was an original coinage. (I will be happy to repost this cite if anyone > asks). 1869 Marion Harland _Phemie's Temptation_ 12 Phemie made no reply. Her pen was slowly traversing the length of the page, at an elevation of a quarter of an inch above the paper, her eyes following the course of the nib, as if it were the index of a patent computer. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 03:00:48 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:00:48 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: > How old would you guess the "God" version to be? I have traced it back to 1925. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Jan 26 02:37:25 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:37:25 -0600 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club but to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McChesney-Young" Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search field did turn up this article, though: Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 03:46:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:46:33 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: It may not fit all the cites, but consider the possibility that "glass-bottle" means (or will someday mean) "to throttle." Just a Yank's wild guess. JL Dave Hause wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Hause Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club but to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McChesney-Young" Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search field did turn up this article, though: Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 04:29:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:29:25 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$69fgu3@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Fred. I had no idea that it was so recent. For some reason, it's always seemed kind of 19th-century to me. -Wilson Gray On Jan 25, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> How old would you guess the "God" version to be? > > I have traced it back to 1925. > > Fred Shapiro > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 04:33:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:33:31 -0500 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 10:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It may not fit all the cites, but consider the possibility that > "glass-bottle" means (or will someday mean) "to throttle." > > Just a Yank's wild guess. > > JL But, according to the rules of rhyming slang, wouldn't we expect "to glass" to come to mean "to throttle"? -Wilson > > Dave Hause wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Hause > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would > suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club > but > to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the > handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John McChesney-Young" > > Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of > speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and > strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful > as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search > field did turn up this article, though: > > Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free! > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 04:46:30 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:46:30 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > So "God is in the details" means exactly the opposite. > > If there is an opposite. > > JL Good point. The "God" version obviously must mean something like, "Not bringing an idea to fruition is an easy task." -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill >> (1930) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >> much more fascinating. >> >> JL > > But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version > means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does > not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition > is no easy task. > > -Wilson > >> >> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the >> details", >> which I think I have seen at least as often. >> >> -- Mark >> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 26 06:15:39 2005 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:15:39 -0800 Subject: antedate for "love child" Message-ID: THE NATURAL SON, or, Lover's Vows, a Play, in 5 Acts. Bu Augustus von Kotzerik, Poet-Laureat, and Director of the Imperial Theaters at Vienna.... The Natural Son, or Child of Love, is the justly-admired Play which is now performing, wich such universal Applause, at the Theatre Royal, Covent Garden, under the altered Title of LOVER'S VOWS. Advertisement in the Times, Oct 19, 1798. The OED has 1805 for 'love child', and the cite suggests a German origin: "Miss Blenheim being, what in that country is denominated, a love-child." Perhaps the Kotzerik play was the point of entry. I'm interested in "love child" because while it was originally a euphemism for 'bastard' (Trench wrote in 1855, "what a source of mischief in all our country parishes is the one practice of calling a child born out of wedlock, a 'love-child' instead of a bastard"), it's still being used after "bastard" has become pretty much outdated in its literal meaning and illegitimacy itself is no longer a topic people feel they have to dance around. I've been trying to think of other cases where an expression retains a euphemistic character -- as the frequent use of quotes around "love child" demonstrates it surely does -- even after the word it was originally meant to euphemize is no longer used in the relevant sense. Geoff Nunberg From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 26 04:19:40 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:40 -0500 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: <13cf01c5034f$fafcd320$895f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: If "glass bottle" [verb] is in use one might expect to find more-or-less equivalent "bottle" [verb] either as the basic version or by abbreviation. Google for <<"bottled him">> shows a number of instances where "bottle" appears to mean "strike with a bottle", i.e., "use a bottle as a club or blunt weapon" (not "use a broken bottle as a cutting weapon"). There are also some examples where "bottle" [v.t.] would seem to mean "throw bottles at". I would suppose that "glass-bottle" [v.t.] must at least sometimes have the same meaning. Note that almost all bottles which are readily available and suitable for use as weapons are glass bottles. The expression seems to be more popular in the UK, maybe. -- Doug Wilson From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 26 07:11:42 2005 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:11:42 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050125230704.02f84970@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:40 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > If "glass bottle" [verb] is in use one might expect to find more-or-less > equivalent "bottle" [verb] either as the basic version or by abbreviation. > > Google for <<"bottled him">> shows a number of instances where "bottle" > appears to mean "strike with a bottle", i.e., "use a bottle as a club or > blunt weapon" (not "use a broken bottle as a cutting weapon"). There are > also some examples where "bottle" [v.t.] would seem to mean "throw bottles at". > > I would suppose that "glass-bottle" [v.t.] must at least sometimes have the > same meaning. Note that almost all bottles which are readily available and > suitable for use as weapons are glass bottles. > > The expression seems to be more popular in the UK, maybe. Probert gives (among other slang bottle defns) "Bottle is slang for to injure by thrusting a broken bottle into a person." peevish.co.uk gives (among other slang bottle defns) "Verb. To smash a bottle into a person's face, very often a beer bottle after a drinking spree." There may be other definitions at sites out there. Found these with From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Wed Jan 26 07:20:36 2005 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:20:36 -0800 Subject: Oscar bait: 1955? Message-ID: A curious dilettante tries his hand at documenting slang, inspired by this morning's Oscar nominations. Oscar bait 16,700 hits on Google 349 hits on Google Groups and, what the hey, 39 hits on Google News The earliest I can find with what's available through the Seattle Public Library's website is Dec. 4, 1955, from the New York Times p. X5, via ProQuest: "Hollywood Views: 'Harder They Fall' Production Team's Counterpunches--Other Matters" by Thomas M. Pryor The Academy Award fever is mounting. Columbia is so anxious to put "Picnic" in the running that the studio has arranged a special one-week engagement of the film at the Warner Beverly Theatre, starting Tuesday. Academy rules stipulate that pictures must be show publicly for at least seven days in Los Angeles before Dec. 31 to be eligible for nomination. Columbia is so certain its production of the Broadway stage success is "Oscar" bait that Harry Cohn, president, took a page advertisement in Hollywood trade papers inviting the prospective Academy member voters to view the show "as guests of Columbia Pictures Corporation" during the special theatre run. -- James Callan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 08:47:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:47:39 EST Subject: Smythe's "Lick in alley, beat in rink" (1955) Message-ID: All right, I'll look through the Toronto Star "Pages of the Past." But I guarantee you, the $5 I spent is more than I'll make all year, if ever. ... The quote was very difficult to find. Is it "beat" or "lick"? "Ice" or "rink"? "Them" or "'em"? Further complicating matters was a personal name of "Alley." Also, there's more than one "Smythe." And is it "Conn" or "Connie" or "Conny"? ... I found the quote from 1955. I'll also check out the book below. ... ... ... (NYPL CATNYP) Title War games : Conn Smythe and hockey's fighting men / Doug Hunter. Imprint Toronto : Viking, 1996. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2v7LMnx6KqPyvlgkk2UCGfUI9PdM+A/LeEIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 18, 1976 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+lick+em+in+the+alley) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+lick+em+in+the+alley) ...pro hockey. THE man who once you can't LICK 'EM IN THE ALLEY you can't beat 'EM.....to wIN THE he said. He did not strike IN THE 10th and did not need too IN THE.. ... _Bucks County Courier Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2uZ3shyR7xZuvoi/obeoj4DQHalkHYTMtkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 18, 1976 _Levittown,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:levittown+lick+em+in+the+alley) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+lick+em+in+the+alley) ...pro hockey. THE man who once you can't LICK 'EM IN THE ALLEY you can't beat 'EM.....THE tangle of legal problEMs because IN THE courts THE Rozelle Rule and THE.. ... ... (PAGES OF THE PAST) ... 9 October 1955, Toronto Star, pg. 22, col. 1: One of Smythe's more publicized utterances was that he'd fine any Leaf who won the Lady Byng trophy, an award that's associated with politeness on skates. Smiddy (Sidney James Smith--ed.) has won it twice in the last four years. So he winds up as captain of the club. Smythe couldn't have been misquoted, because he never bothered to deny the yarn. So the chances are his proclamation was meant for the particular situation which existed at the time. He also got international credit--or discredit--for the theory, "if you can't lick 'em in the alley, you can't lick 'em in the rink." Capt. Sid never spent more than 28 minutes in the penalty coop during one season. His nirmal stretch in stir, over a 70-game schedule, is something like 10 to 13 minutes. So if Sid licked anyone, it must have been out in the alley, well removed from the referees. ... ... 19 November 1980, Toronto Star, "Smythe leaves a rich legacy" editorial, pg. 8, col. 1: His most famous quote--"If you can't lick 'em in the alley, you can't beat 'em on the ice"--reflected his approach to life as much as his philosophy of hockey. He was a scrappy little gambler who relentlessly pursued whatever he thought was right. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 10:25:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:25:02 EST Subject: "Clod" from Texas Message-ID: "Clod," as in a shoulder of beef from Texas. "Clod" is in OED and DARE, but not in this sense. It's not in William Grimes's EATING YOUR WORDS. ... This was written up in this week's Village Voice: ... _http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0504,sietsema,60393,15.html_ (http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0504,sietsema,60393,15.html) ... Though you can also get pork ribs and pork chops, the emphasis is on beef, most especially brisket ("fat beef") and shoulder ("lean beef"). Also known as "clod," the latter resembles a clod of earth from the surrounding cotton fields in its humpy blackness, and tastes something like smoked roast beef. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _The Sonoran Grill - meats & fi: Texas Slow-smoked Clod Of Beef_ (http://www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display.asp?rec=117) ... Texas Slow-smoked Clod Of Beef. This process also works well with beef brisket. print it! Clod Of Beef. Barbecue Rub. Barbecue Sauce. ... www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display.asp?rec=117 - 25k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_YZ0xbH1OrcJ:www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display.as p?rec=117+clod+and+texas&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display. asp?rec=117) ... _The Lone Star Iconoclast Online_ (http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50news05.htm) ... market.” On the recent trip, the Russian chefs focused on Texas cuisine through ... foodservice gets high value from cuts like the shoulder clod, brisket, and ... www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50news05.htm - 11k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:CYx-YvYX2q0J:www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50new s05.htm+clod+and+texas&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50ne ws05.htm) ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Recipe for Beef Shoulder_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_frm/thread/dd0f21a89817f5 4c/ed4981c0c2035a8b?q=clod+and+texas+beef&_done=/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=clod+and+texas+beef&&_doneTitle=Back+to +Search&&d#ed4981c0c2035a8b) Are you talking about shoulder clod? As in what you get at Kruez' Market in Texas? ... Hi, I'm looking for a recipe that uses beef shoulder. _rec.food.cooking_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking) - May 7 2001, 4:36 pm by smokin - 5 messages - 5 authors ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2l5T0pCunoRROMyErHIGbQz/XFyoqAKe1w==) Friday, April 10, 1896 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+shoulder+and+clod+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+shoulder+and+clod+AND) ...neck, brisket, knuckle AND SHOULDER CLOD, were quite as rich ia protein AND.....its nutritive qualities. The SHOULDER CLOD by aaa'yMs contains quite as much.. ... _Davenport Daily Republican _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3YGl/Jks4m6KID/6NLMW2nM/LzxMe8RXIbkV9xtXMBpJ+q0wEqLFskIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 19, 1896 _Davenport,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:davenport+shoulder+and+clod+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+shoulder+and+clod+AND) ...its nutritive qualities. The SHOULDER CLOD by analysis contains quite as much.....muscle with names such as knuckle AND SHOULDER were quite as rich iu protein.. ... _North Adams Transcript _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2vp0bHPUdKT4KZkvmd44PDK4z8x9dnNO0EIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, October 12, 1900 _North Adams,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_adams+shoulder+and+clod+AND) _Massachusetts_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+shoulder+and+clod+AND ) ...U 15 20 20 10 to 5 to 10 11 SHOULDER CLOD Corned 10 11 H 1G i TInncy Comb 3.....1000 Ibs. MurraH'a SOO Iba. KiTs 10 SHOULDER Slum Rib 11 Sirloin 16.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- OT: TYLER & COWANS ... Someone asked about the words "Tyler" and "Cowans" on Dave Wilton's word origins site. Tyler Cowan, as I've mentioned before, is my old chess friend who has a web page on Washington, DC restaurants. Hm, maybe I should eat out at restaurants. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 13:20:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:20:15 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: Yes, but not necessarily right away. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2005, at 10:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It may not fit all the cites, but consider the possibility that > "glass-bottle" means (or will someday mean) "to throttle." > > Just a Yank's wild guess. > > JL But, according to the rules of rhyming slang, wouldn't we expect "to glass" to come to mean "to throttle"? -Wilson > > Dave Hause wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Hause > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would > suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club > but > to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the > handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John McChesney-Young" > > Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of > speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and > strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful > as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search > field did turn up this article, though: > > Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Wed Jan 26 13:37:15 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:37:15 +0000 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 13:40:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:40:34 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: Thanks, Jon. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Hause wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Hause Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club but to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO I missed some of this thread - notably its inception, so my apologies if this has already been put forward - but Dave Hause's suggestion fits with the UK use of the slang verb glass, a term which has been around since at least the 1930s and means to slash someone's face by hitting them there with a broken beer glass or bottle. It is, unsurprisingly, a popular means of violence within public houses. With respect to JL, glass bottle has yet to appear in any collection of rhyming slang I have encountered. Indeed I can't trace any term that means to throttle. Given the mutability of the rhyming slang lexis, this of course doesn't guarantee that it isn't out there somewhere. Jonathon Green __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 26 14:30:52 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:30:52 -0500 Subject: Truly, truly awful Message-ID: Dave Plotkin, a DJ at WPRK (the radio station for Rollins College, the local liberal arts college) and an acquaintance of mine, recently stayed on the air for 110 hours straight to set a new world record (and raise money for the station). There were a few bits in the local media about it, one of which described the station as playing ...the most godawful and sublime music you've never heard before. (Exact wording of the line from memory.) Jeanne, my wife, was reading this column out loud to our daughters, and she read the word "godawful" as [g@'da.fl] (where @ is a schwa); i asked her to reread the sentence, and she did so with the same pronunciation. This contrasts with my pronunciation, which is ['ga.dO.fl] (where O is open-o). The cot-caught thing aside, has anyone else here ever run across Jeanne's pronunciation (or never heard mine, FTM) of this word? My first thought was that it was a strategy for avoiding saying "god", since Jeanne and i were both raised in a faith culture in which one simply doesn't *say* "god" outside of religious or technical contexts, but i'm curious if it's more widespread than just that. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 26 14:37:38 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:37:38 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb Message-ID: Last evening Jeanne (my wife) and i went to our 5yo daughter's school's "reading night", which had a "parenting tips" session as part of it. One (linguistic) thing i was struck by is that "consequence" was used as a verb multiple times, and that by both the person leading the session *and* a couple of the parents. Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being used as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun "consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among child-rearing types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a while now? It made me think of George Carlin's routine on the emotional bleaching of "shellshock" as it changed, by stages, into "post-traumatic stress disorder". Anyway, might as well consider this a very, very early nomination for the "most useless" category in the WotY 2k5 voting. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 26 14:38:44 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:38:44 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Today's For Better or for Worse comic strip uses a number of slang terms that are unfamiliar to me. I don't know if that's because the strip is set in Ontario, or if it's because I'm an old fogey, but I suspect the latter. Two teenagers are discussing a friend: April: Becky thinks she's so hot because she's going out with a guy in grade 12. Duncan: Yeah, she's hangin' high! April: She's only just turned 14. What would a guy who's 17 see in her?! Duncan: You're kidding me, right? Duncan: April, Becky is "hands on" . . . She's a "gig"! She's "roadside," man! April: You mean . . . she's "been there"? Duncan: Yeah . . . an' once you've "been there," you ain't comin' back! The strip is at http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/000938.php. John Baker From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Jan 26 14:47:31 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:47:31 -0000 Subject: Grass roots In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6F9@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: A subscriber has asked about the origins of this expression in the sense of the rank and file of an political body. Back in March, David Barnhart asked whether anybody knew of it from the 1880s but I can't find a reply in the archives. The OED has it from June 1912 in reference to the attempt by Teddy Roosevelt to become president. I've found a number of examples from that year, all in reference to his campaign, which might suggest it was coined by somebody connected to it. There's also one from 1920 on newpaperarchive.com that links the sense to Roosevelt's principles. "America in So Many Words" dates it to 1902, but that is in the sense of the fundamentals of a situation. Before I go public suggesting a direct link to the 1912 Roosevelt campaign, can anybody provide evidence that suggests it isn't so? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 15:31:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:31:57 -0800 Subject: "at your own risk" Message-ID: The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and Destroy - Use at your own risk!" Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? What's with this? JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 15:42:27 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:42:27 -0500 Subject: antedate for "love child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:15 PM -0800 1/25/05, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >THE NATURAL SON, or, Lover's Vows, a Play, in 5 Acts. Bu Augustus von >Kotzerik, Poet-Laureat, and Director of the Imperial Theaters at >Vienna.... The Natural Son, or Child of Love, is the justly-admired >Play which is now performing, wich such universal Applause, at the >Theatre Royal, Covent Garden, under the altered Title of LOVER'S >VOWS. Advertisement in the Times, Oct 19, 1798. > >The OED has 1805 for 'love child', and the cite suggests a German >origin: "Miss Blenheim being, what in that country is denominated, a >love-child." Perhaps the Kotzerik play was the point of entry. > >I'm interested in "love child" because while it was originally a >euphemism for 'bastard' (Trench wrote in 1855, "what a source of >mischief in all our country parishes is the one practice of calling a >child born out of wedlock, a 'love-child' instead of a bastard"), >it's still being used after "bastard" has become pretty much outdated >in its literal meaning and illegitimacy itself is no longer a topic >people feel they have to dance around. I've been trying to think of >other cases where an expression retains a euphemistic character -- as >the frequent use of quotes around "love child" demonstrates it surely >does -- even after the word it was originally meant to euphemize is >no longer used in the relevant sense. > As an exercise, I imagined first Edmund stage center (Lear I.ii) declaiming Edmund the base Shall top the legitimate. I grow, I prosper. Now, gods, stand up for love children! and then Diana Ross belting out, with the other Supremes backing her: Tenement slum (ooh, ooh, ooh, aaah) You think that I don't feel love What I feel for you is real love In other's eyes I see reflected A hurt, scorned, rejected Bastard Bastard Born in poverty Bastard Never meant to be Bastard Scorned by society Bastard Different from the rest Bastard Always second-best (or was that second hand? or second nature?) Larry From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Jan 26 15:58:11 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:58:11 -0500 Subject: "at your own risk" In-Reply-To: <20050126152441.E8A9523C455@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? My guess is that SpyBot is emphatically declining to take responsibility if something goes wrong. Erik From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 26 16:23:37 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:23:37 -0800 Subject: Hotel Journalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is it too early to start collecting WOTY nominees for 2005? hotel journalism, n., the practice of reporting on events in a dangerous place from the safety of one's western-style hotel. AFP, 12 Jan 2005 1433 hrs (GMT +8) in http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/126951/1/.html (time is when it was posted to this web site; I believe the AFP wire story may be dated 11 Jan): Leonard Doyle, foreign editor of The Independent in London, said, "we make a big effort not to do what you might call 'hotel journalism,' and we make a very big effort not to sub-contract work to local Iraqi journalists -- we think that's basically unfair. It's a risk to them. We carry the same risk." Of some 2200 Google hits, almost all are associated with the Independent or with Robert Fisk, its Baghdad correspondent. We'll see if it catches on. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 16:23:02 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:23:02 -0600 Subject: Oscar bait: 1955? Message-ID: "Looking at Hollywood" Hedda Hopper Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963); Jun 1, 1948; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Chicago Tribune (1890 - 1958) pg. A8 "Oscar Bait" is a paragraph title in this article. >From Newspaper archive: Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1942-04-28 "Walter Winchell on Broadway", p. 6 col 2. "The Magic Lantern: The week's cargo of celluloid included no Oscar bait, but most of the photos were very genic." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of James Callan > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:21 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Oscar bait: 1955? > > The earliest I can find with what's available through the > Seattle Public Library's website is Dec. 4, 1955, from the > New York Times p. > X5, via ProQuest: > > "Hollywood Views: 'Harder They Fall' Production Team's > Counterpunches--Other Matters" by Thomas M. Pryor > > The Academy Award fever is mounting. Columbia is so anxious > to put "Picnic" in the running that the studio has arranged a > special one-week engagement of the film at the Warner Beverly > Theatre, starting Tuesday. > Academy rules stipulate that pictures must be show publicly > for at least seven days in Los Angeles before Dec. 31 to be > eligible for nomination. Columbia is so certain its > production of the Broadway stage success is "Oscar" bait that > Harry Cohn, president, took a page advertisement in Hollywood > trade papers inviting the prospective Academy member voters > to view the show "as guests of Columbia Pictures Corporation" > during the special theatre run. > > -- > James Callan > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 26 16:33:48 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:33:48 -0500 Subject: Hotel Journalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice find. It is similar to the "toe-touch," a trip taken by a reporter merely to acquire the proper dateline on a story, even though all reporting is done somewhere else or by someone else. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Jan 26, 2005, at 11:23, Dave Wilton wrote: > Is it too early to start collecting WOTY nominees for 2005? > hotel journalism, n., the practice of reporting on events in a > dangerous > place from the safety of one's western-style hotel. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 26 16:45:39 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:45:39 -0500 Subject: "at your own risk" In-Reply-To: <20050126153157.77164.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's the software equivalent of the warning stickers on ladders that say "don't fall off, and don't sue us if you do." SpyBot mucks about in strange places in the system software, which can be treacherous because some viruses and trojans enmesh themselves so tightly with it. If SpyBot hoses your puter when it's supposed to be getting rid of baddies, then the developers of SpyBot absolve themselves of all responsibility for your data loss or loss of days. The developers are German, I believe, so puns and jokes seem a little less likely than if they were from the anglosphere. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org PS: In your case, Jon, it would be at *my* own risk. : 0 ) On Jan 26, 2005, at 10:31, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? From gorion at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 26 16:42:25 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:42:25 -0500 Subject: Truly, truly awful In-Reply-To: <41f7ab3f.5ff6ca09.48fe.03b1SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: I heard your wife's pronunciation once, in the mid-late nineties, on a high-school girl from Phoenix. I assumed it was a mis-parsing of the words in the compound, like the couple people I've met who pronounce "albeit" with two syllables to rhyme with German "arbeit" (i.e. /Al'baIt/). But the idea that godawful might be euphemistically "mispronounced" is interesting; reminds me of the OED citation from Farquhar that says, of "zounds": "Zoons is only us'd by the disbanded Officers and Bullies: but Zauns is the Beaux pronuncation [sic]" -- that the invocation of god's wounds is less coarse if they can't really make out that you're saying "wounds". On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:30:52 -0500, David Bowie wrote: > Jeanne, my wife, was reading this column out loud to our daughters, and she > read the word "godawful" as [g@'da.fl] (where @ is a schwa); i asked her to > reread the sentence, and she did so with the same pronunciation. This > contrasts with my pronunciation, which is ['ga.dO.fl] (where O is open-o). > > The cot-caught thing aside, has anyone else here ever run across Jeanne's > pronunciation (or never heard mine, FTM) of this word? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:28:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:28:31 -0800 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts (16 [2004]: 151). Is anyone familiar with this usage? JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 26 17:40:13 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:40:13 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: <20050126050239.CCE13B25F1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: John Baker says: >>> I think the meaning of the two phrases is pretty close, though not identical. "God is in the details" is typically applied in artistic contexts (particularly in architecture) and means that great art is achieved through attention to detail. "The devil is in the details" means that close attention to detail is required to find problems with a complex proposal or arrangement. I believe that the latter phrase achieved broad popularization in the 1980s in political contexts, particularly with respect to arms control treaties and tax legislation, in both of which areas very close attention indeed to the details is required to find the devil. <<< I hadn't heard the God version enough to have figured out a supposed meaning for it. I understood the devil version much as you did. I'd've defined it thus: There can be / are likely to be errors or gotchas down at fine levels of detail, where you won't notice them until it's too late unless you examine and predict interactions and so on very carefully. I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not sought out and eliminated. I like the hominess of the troublemaker hiding amidst the firewood out back, and I have tried to keep that image in use as "the goblin in the woodpile". It helps, I guess, that my family and many of my friends are sf/fantasy fans. mark by hand From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:45:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:45:38 -0800 Subject: Thou & You in 1713 Message-ID: The following exchange was imagined in 18th C. York. It well exemplifies the days when plural or honorific "you" was replacing singular "thou" in daily speech. (Actually, there's something this paragraph for just about everyone!) "Passing over Foss-Bridge, a couple of Brawny brawling Shrews, well match'd in a Tongue-Duel, out-did all the Bells in the Parish, or Bull-baitings in Christendom, for unmannerly Noise and Barbarity; their jangling Clappers were enough to turn all the Drink in the Neighbourhood, and sour the very Society of the World. Why, says one, thou lyest [sic] like a Punk, a Thief, and a Witch. Well, but you Bitch, you, says the other, You lie [sic] like an Almanack-maker, that lies every Hour of the Day, and all the Year long. No, you Jade, you out-do the famous Bully P----tridge, and the infamous Dr. O--ts in Lying; and are as well known throughout the Town, amongst Men, Women, and Children, as the Church Catechism, or Practice of Piety, amongst the Religious." -------"Captain Bland," The New Atalantis; or The York Spy (1713), p. 52. "Bland"'s satirical little book seems to have been inspired by those of Edward Ward, "The London-Spy." The above selection well typifies its still entertaining contents. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:48:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:48:16 -0800 Subject: "at your own risk" Message-ID: Obviously I thought of that, Erik. If so, it's the most candid security product in the world. Good, too. JL Erik Hoover wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Erik Hoover Subject: Re: "at your own risk" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? My guess is that SpyBot is emphatically declining to take responsibility if something goes wrong. Erik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 17:50:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:50:04 -0600 Subject: limousine liberal WAS Grass roots Message-ID: The 1912 McClure's Magazine cite from the OED is in the APS ProQuest database. That same article includes an interest antecedent for "limousine liberal": MANUFACTURING PUBLIC OPINION BY GEORGE KIBBE TURNER McClure's Magazine (1893-1926); Jul 1912; VOL. XXXIX, No. 3; APS Online pg. 316 "The silk-hat and limousine vote, bound together in the Taft leagues, swung heavily for Taft; the factory vote went strongly for Roosevelt." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Quinion > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:48 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Grass roots > > > The OED has it from June 1912 in reference to the attempt by > Teddy Roosevelt to become president. I've found a number of > examples from that year, all in reference to his campaign, > which might suggest it was coined by somebody connected to > it. There's also one from 1920 on newpaperarchive.com that > links the sense to Roosevelt's principles. > "America in So Many Words" dates it to 1902, but that is in > the sense of the fundamentals of a situation. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:52:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:52:34 -0800 Subject: "at your own risk" Message-ID: Curses. Hoisted foully by my own petard. That's life in the swamp. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: "at your own risk" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's the software equivalent of the warning stickers on ladders that say "don't fall off, and don't sue us if you do." SpyBot mucks about in strange places in the system software, which can be treacherous because some viruses and trojans enmesh themselves so tightly with it. If SpyBot hoses your puter when it's supposed to be getting rid of baddies, then the developers of SpyBot absolve themselves of all responsibility for your data loss or loss of days. The developers are German, I believe, so puns and jokes seem a little less likely than if they were from the anglosphere. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org PS: In your case, Jon, it would be at *my* own risk. : 0 ) On Jan 26, 2005, at 10:31, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 17:59:43 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:59:43 -0500 Subject: Truly, truly awful In-Reply-To: <29d6fbaf05012608425064b53f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:42 AM -0500 1/26/05, Orion Montoya wrote: >I heard your wife's pronunciation once, in the mid-late nineties, on a >high-school girl from Phoenix. I assumed it was a mis-parsing of the >words in the compound, like the couple people I've met who pronounce >"albeit" with two syllables to rhyme with German "arbeit" (i.e. >/Al'baIt/). > On that last one, a compromise that I often hear is a nod to the well-known concessionaire "Al B. It", with focus on his middle initial-- /ael'biyIt/. Still trisyllabic, no German diphthong, but first syllable definitely "al", with no connection to "all". I haven't heard this spelling pronunciation with "altogether" or "already", so I assume it's partly a widespread loss of transparency in the case of "albeit". Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 18:10:53 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:10:53 -0600 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" or "considerable" > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, > extent, etc.)" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." > Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my > eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. > > "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It > piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough > to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes > from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts > (16 [2004]: 151). > > Is anyone familiar with this usage? > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 18:37:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:37:26 -0800 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a standard English context. Still recovering from the shame, JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" or "considerable" > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, > extent, etc.)" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." > Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my > eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. > > "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It > piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough > to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes > from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts > (16 [2004]: 151). > > Is anyone familiar with this usage? > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 21:21:20 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:21:20 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > John Baker says: >>>> > > I think the meaning of the two phrases is pretty close, though > not > identical. "God is in the details" is typically applied in artistic > contexts (particularly in architecture) and means that great art is > achieved > through attention to detail. "The devil is in the details" means that > close > attention to detail is required to find problems with a complex > proposal or > arrangement. I believe that the latter phrase achieved broad > popularization > in the 1980s in political contexts, particularly with respect to arms > control treaties and tax legislation, in both of which areas very close > attention indeed to the details is required to find the devil. > > <<< > > I hadn't heard the God version enough to have figured out a supposed > meaning > for it. I understood the devil version much as you did. I'd've defined > it > thus: There can be / are likely to be errors or gotchas down at fine > levels > of detail, where you won't notice them until it's too late unless you > examine and predict interactions and so on very carefully. > > I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in > the > woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not sought > out and > eliminated. Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. -Wilson Gray > > I like the hominess of the troublemaker hiding amidst the firewood out > back, > and I have tried to keep that image in use as "the goblin in the > woodpile". > It helps, I guess, that my family and many of my friends are sf/fantasy > fans. > > > mark by hand > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 21:38:43 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:38:43 -0600 Subject: Mentalist antedates Message-ID: Mentalist >From OED: (n) d. A magician who performs feats which apparently demonstrate extraordinary mental powers, such as telepathy, precognition, etc.; a mind-reader. 1925 _Sphinx_ July 159/2 (heading) Attention, Mentalists! Indianapolis Star | 1909-10-16 p 5 col 4. "MENTALIST FINDS LETTERS IN WILSON MURDER CASE" "Several letters and papers which seem to in involve John Wilson, charged with the murder of his wife on the third day of March, have been found in a trash pile on East Fifth street through the agency of a mentalist." Syracuse Herald Journal | 1909-06-06 p 40 col 6. [advertisement for the Grand theater] "Special Engagement of Pearl Tangley The Egyptian Mentalist. The most astounding exhibition of mental telepathy ever witnessed. She will tell you IF You ought to marry You will succeed Your sweetheart loves you." Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-11-21 page 2 col 4. "Mental Marvel at The Colonial" "Manager Abbott of The Colonial has secured Ethel Roberts, a girl mentalist, for a limited engagement, starting Monday night. Miss Roberts, who is a protégé of Anna Eva Fay, presents a remarkable exhibition of telepathy wherein she calls people by name, tells them of events that have transpired in their past and gives them advise in love affairs, business, etc." Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-08-13, p. 5 col 7 "Mental Photography A Wonderful Phase of Psychical Phenomena" "Professor J. Edgar Marion, telephotist, expert mentalist and master of silent forces, of Boston, Mass., who is now located at the Standen hotel,possesses the greatest mental power ever displayed in this city." Davis County [Utah] Clipper 1921-04-01 p. 5 col 3. "Bill for Orpheum Theatre Commencing Wed., March 30" "Harry Kahno, "The Incomparable Mentalist," performs wonderful feats featuring "the Evolution of the Human Brain." " Monessen [Pennsylvania] Daily Independent, 1911-12-20 p. 6 col 2. "Mind Reading Strange Silent Power" "Professor William Walter Lipsin, Philospher and Scientist, is now in this city on business pertaining to the Boston Telepathy Club, under the auspices of the Morgan-Russell Institutue, and has arranged to give a portion of his time to those wishing to learn certain things concerning their own affairs or the affairs of others in whom they are interested." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 21:44:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:44:28 -0500 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Slater's usage seems strange to me, too, Jon. And I've actually known people who said "right smart." If I'd come across this usage of "smart" in situ, I would have assumed that it was some sort of typo, perhaps for "small." But "small" doesn't clarify things much, either. -Wilson On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, > etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a > standard English context. > > Still recovering from the shame, > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" > or "considerable" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, >> extent, etc.)" >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." >> Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my >> eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. >> >> "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It >> piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough >> to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes >> from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts >> (16 [2004]: 151). >> >> Is anyone familiar with this usage? >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 21:57:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:57:21 -0500 Subject: Mentalist antedates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:38 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Mentalist antedates > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Mentalist > > From OED: (n) d. A magician who performs feats which apparently > demonstrate extraordinary mental powers, such as telepathy, > precognition, etc.; a mind-reader. 1925 _Sphinx_ July 159/2 > (heading) Attention, Mentalists! > > Indianapolis Star | 1909-10-16 p 5 col 4. > "MENTALIST FINDS LETTERS IN WILSON MURDER CASE" > "Several letters and papers which seem to in involve John Wilson, > charged with the murder of his wife on the third day of March, have > been found in a trash pile on East Fifth street through the agency of > a mentalist." > > > Syracuse Herald Journal | 1909-06-06 p 40 col 6. > [advertisement for the Grand theater] > "Special Engagement of Pearl Tangley The Egyptian Mentalist. The most > astounding exhibition of mental telepathy ever witnessed. She will > tell you IF You ought to marry You will succeed Your sweetheart loves > you." > > Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-11-21 page 2 col 4. > "Mental Marvel at The Colonial" > "Manager Abbott of The Colonial has secured Ethel Roberts, a girl > mentalist, for a limited engagement, starting Monday night. Miss > Roberts, who is a protégé of Anna Eva Fay, presents a remarkable > exhibition of telepathy wherein she calls people by name, tells them > of events that have transpired in their past and gives them advise in > love affairs, business, etc." > > > Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-08-13, p. 5 col 7 > "Mental Photography A Wonderful Phase of Psychical Phenomena" > "Professor J. Edgar Marion, telephotist "telephotist" is not in the OED. Also just heard someone overcorrect "cushion" to "cushing." -Wilson Gray > > Davis County [Utah] Clipper 1921-04-01 p. 5 col 3. > "Bill for Orpheum Theatre Commencing Wed., March 30" > "Harry Kahno, "The Incomparable Mentalist," performs wonderful feats > featuring "the Evolution of the Human Brain." " > > Monessen [Pennsylvania] Daily Independent, 1911-12-20 p. 6 col 2. > "Mind Reading Strange Silent Power" > "Professor William Walter Lipsin, Philospher and Scientist, is now in > this city on business pertaining to the Boston Telepathy Club, under > the auspices of the Morgan-Russell Institutue, and has arranged to > give a portion of his time to those wishing to learn certain things > concerning their own affairs or the affairs of others in whom they are > interested." > From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Jan 26 22:21:29 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:21:29 -0000 Subject: Chillaxing Message-ID: Another subscriber asks about "chillaxing", which a Web search shows easily enough is a recent slang term (~2000?) created as a blend of "chill" and "relaxing". It turned up in a reader's review in the issue of Newsday for 8 December last year about "Destiny Fulfilled", the reunion album of Destiny's Child: "The album as a whole ... actually sounds like a parody of a hip-hop record, and is, in fact, too played out for servin', too wack for chillaxing, and much too bunk to twurk to." Could somebody give me a translation of the last bit? And what's the cultural context here - is it enough to say it's rap slang, or is there more that needs to be said? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jan 26 22:33:33 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:33:33 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: <78cfebf8024ca7859d39ee637c93c507@rcn.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not sought >> out and eliminated. > >Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. ~~~~~~~~~ There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years ago (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that quite a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them were young enough that their experience of its use was probably literary or at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But here you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding general among blacks of your generation? A. Murie From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 26 23:31:39 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:31:39 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb In-Reply-To: <073701c503b4$9a3ad270$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: >Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being used >as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun >"consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to >realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among child-rearing >types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a while now? Robert Hartwell Fiske's "Dictionary of Disagreeable English" defines this verb and provides a brief critique: <> -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 23:38:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:38:54 -0800 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: Slater, USAFR, used to be an English professor and, back from Asia where he was a PAO, resumed his current job with National Public Radio in Ohio. So he's literate. Actually, his short memoir is gracefully written (and available on-line). Color photos, too. "Smart" shouldn't be a misprint. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Slater's usage seems strange to me, too, Jon. And I've actually known people who said "right smart." If I'd come across this usage of "smart" in situ, I would have assumed that it was some sort of typo, perhaps for "small." But "small" doesn't clarify things much, either. -Wilson On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, > etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a > standard English context. > > Still recovering from the shame, > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" > or "considerable" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, >> extent, etc.)" >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." >> Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my >> eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. >> >> "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It >> piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough >> to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes >> from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts >> (16 [2004]: 151). >> >> Is anyone familiar with this usage? >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 23:48:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:48:58 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: These odd terms seem to be made up. JL (with no credibility) "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's For Better or for Worse comic strip uses a number of slang terms that are unfamiliar to me. I don't know if that's because the strip is set in Ontario, or if it's because I'm an old fogey, but I suspect the latter. Two teenagers are discussing a friend: April: Becky thinks she's so hot because she's going out with a guy in grade 12. Duncan: Yeah, she's hangin' high! April: She's only just turned 14. What would a guy who's 17 see in her?! Duncan: You're kidding me, right? Duncan: April, Becky is "hands on" . . . She's a "gig"! She's "roadside," man! April: You mean . . . she's "been there"? Duncan: Yeah . . . an' once you've "been there," you ain't comin' back! The strip is at http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/000938.php. John Baker --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 27 00:13:56 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:13:56 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. Notwithstanding which, I note that one of the definitions for "gig" at UrbanDictionary.com is a "scandolous female...a slut" [sic]. The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, or at least would be out of context. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 6:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse These odd terms seem to be made up. JL (with no credibility) "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's For Better or for Worse comic strip uses a number of slang terms that are unfamiliar to me. I don't know if that's because the strip is set in Ontario, or if it's because I'm an old fogey, but I suspect the latter. Two teenagers are discussing a friend: April: Becky thinks she's so hot because she's going out with a guy in grade 12. Duncan: Yeah, she's hangin' high! April: She's only just turned 14. What would a guy who's 17 see in her?! Duncan: You're kidding me, right? Duncan: April, Becky is "hands on" . . . She's a "gig"! She's "roadside," man! April: You mean . . . she's "been there"? Duncan: Yeah . . . an' once you've "been there," you ain't comin' back! The strip is at http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/000938.php. John Baker --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Thu Jan 27 00:41:12 2005 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (MICHAEL SALOVESH) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:41:12 -0600 Subject: Grass roots Message-ID: >>> Michael Quinion 01/26/05 8:47 AM >>> A subscriber has asked about the origins of this expression in the sense of the rank and file of an political body. Back in March, David Barnhart asked whether anybody knew of it from the 1880s but I can't find a reply in the archives. Just slightly off-topic: In the Quadrangle, open space at the center of The University of Chicago (see note, below), generations of students, faculty, and visitors taking shortcuts across campus had worn deep ruts in the lawns that were supposed to grace the area between buildings. Desperate defenses from the Building and Grounds staff used chains, signs, and public pleas to keep off the grass. It simply didn't work. Some marketing genius from the School of Business prevailed on the powers-that-were in the 1970's to initiate a grass roots campaign. Take that phrase literally: There were stories in campus publications, more than one general rally, wise words from the president's office, and other ways to plug The Grass Roots Campaign. The neatest ploy was a general giveaway of green buttons bearing the words "Grass Roots !" Once there had been sufficient noise, the entire area was spaded and reseeded -- and "Grass Roots !" signs were prominently spotted around campus. Public disapproval ended the reign of the shortcut abusers. Grass Roots worked! (At least it worked that one spring.) The campus lawns took on a beautifully verdant look everywhere. It didn't hurt, either, when some genius responded to the vox populi by paving some of the most notorious ruts in the lawn. If people insist on following their own view of where campus paths ought to go, it makes more sense to join them than to fight them. Promised note: Notice that I capitalized The University's name as The University of Chicago. That was once the only accepted form: The University, as if there were no other. (I understand that latter- day campus stylebooks have dropped that initial T to mere lowercase status. O tempora, o mores.) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! P.S.: There was one flaw in the Grass Roots movement. Somehow, the seed bags were contaminated by an occasional kernel of good midwestern maize seed. (That might even have been a nod to a former Chancellor of the University -- later demoted to the mere title of President. He was an internationally famous plant geneticist, most renowned for his work on the origins and domestication of maize.) As far as I was concerned, the cornstalks were a pleasant diversion. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 01:40:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:40:19 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray writes: > >>> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >>> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not >>> sought >>> out and eliminated. >> >> Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >> person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >> suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. > ~~~~~~~~~ > There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years > ago > (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that > quite > a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them > were young enough that their experience of its use was probably > literary or > at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But > here > you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding > general among blacks of your generation? > A. Murie > Yes, it is. That it might have some other meaning is a possibility that has caught me completely by surprise. I've consulted my brother and a few old - no pun intended - friends and they agree with me. We know only the "passing-for-white" meaning and the 'hidden-problem" meaning is one that none of us has come across before. -Wilson Gray From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jan 27 01:48:20 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:48:20 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B3C@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: > The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to > me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably > means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" > sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, > or at least would be out of context. In this context, I read "roadside" to be a reference to a streetwalker. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 01:46:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:46:23 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6bp2ik@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 6:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Consequence, as a verb > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being >> used >> as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun >> "consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to >> realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among >> child-rearing >> types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a >> while now? > > Robert Hartwell Fiske's "Dictionary of Disagreeable English" defines > this > verb and provides a brief critique: > > < _punish_. .... / Not yet in many dictionaries, the politically correct, > though completely inane and pathetic, to _consequence_ is increasingly > used > by psychologists and human resource personnel, themselves often inane > and > pathetic. ....>> > > -- Doug Wilson > "Human resource personnel"?! Shouldn't that be "human-resource human resources"?;-) -Wilson Gray From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jan 27 01:47:47 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:47:47 -0600 Subject: Vulgarity in a cell-phone product-name Message-ID: This is to the American Dialect Society and American Name Society. ---- I was startled today to see a serious article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch contain the vulgar Russian term for excrement, evidently without the knowledge of the journalist. --- Article title: "A Pair of New Viruses Can Disable Cell Phones." Subtitle: "Gavno 'Trojan horses" enter "smart" models disguised as repair files." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, January 25, 2005, Section C (Business), p. 1, cols. 1-4, p. 6, cols. 1-2. Here's the beginning of the article: "Cell phone viruses just became more lethal. Now, two can disable your phone entirely. "The antivirus firm SimWorks said Gavno.a is the first 'Trojan horse' targeting 'smart' phones that actually interferes with the phone's ability to make calls. Trojan horses are malicious programs disguised to entice people to download them. [...] Okay, now for a language lesson. The Russian vulgar term for excrement is spelled "govno" and is stressed on the final vowel. Also, in standard Russian the vowel "o" right before a stress is pronounced "a" (the official term for this feature is "akanie"). So "govno" (please forgive me for repeating this word) is pronounced "gavno" (with final stress). And along comes a malicious product whose very name contains the word for "excrement," a clear indication to anyone who knows Russian (which, of course, excludes most people in the U.S.) that the product cannot possibly be beneficial. If anyone in the American Name Society is collecting examples of unusual product names, Gavno.a may be added to the list. Btw, The St. Louis Post-Dispatch article contains the following highlighted quote from the chief executive of SimWorks: "Once a user installs Gavno, they may find it difficult, if not impossible, to repair the phone." Considering the literal meaning of "Gavno," the creators of this product name must be having as good a chuckle as their twisted little minds will allow. Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian Department of Arts, Languages, and Philosophy, University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 email: gcohen at umr.edu From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Thu Jan 27 01:49:22 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:49:22 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: <20050126211408.DCAF423C3EC@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a > person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was > suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. > > -Wilson Gray That's what it meant when my Grandmother said it to my Grandfather, FWIW. Erik From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 01:55:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:55:15 -0500 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was thinking more along the lines of an error by the editor or by the typesetter, not one by the author himself, part-time zoomie though he be. -Wilson On Jan 26, 2005, at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, > etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Slater, USAFR, used to be an English professor and, back from Asia > where he was a PAO, resumed his current job with National Public Radio > in Ohio. > > So he's literate. Actually, his short memoir is gracefully written > (and available on-line). Color photos, too. "Smart" shouldn't be a > misprint. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Slater's usage seems strange to me, too, Jon. And I've actually known > people who said "right smart." If I'd come across this usage of "smart" > in situ, I would have assumed that it was some sort of typo, perhaps > for "small." But "small" doesn't clarify things much, either. > > -Wilson > > On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, >> etc.)" >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a >> standard English context. >> >> Still recovering from the shame, >> >> JL >> >> "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >> Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, >> etc.)" >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" >> or "considerable" >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: American Dialect Society >>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" >>> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, >>> extent, etc.)" >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----------------- >>> >>> OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." >>> Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my >>> eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. >>> >>> "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It >>> piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough >>> to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes >>> from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts >>> (16 [2004]: 151). >>> >>> Is anyone familiar with this usage? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Jan 27 01:56:50 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:56:50 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: <> This is lifted from the website http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their assertions about rolling papers in the 1500's. Thx. Sam Clements PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:02:28 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:02:28 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? In-Reply-To: <000801c50413$77fb6120$df631941@sam> Message-ID: I can remember rolling papers only as early as 1959. When I moved to Fayetteville, AR, to attend grad school, I - a smoker then - lucked into a great deal. Living in the house where I rented an apt. were a couple from NC - they had brought their own tobacco supply with them, and they shared it with me. I learned to roll cigarettes - I even bought a little machine. Given my takehome pay, it was WONDERFFUL! Bethany On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Sam Clements wrote: .... >While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their assertions about rolling papers in the 1500's. From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Jan 27 02:13:20 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:13:20 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of "good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's something my characters would say. Thanks! Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From Karaeverman at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 02:29:01 2005 From: Karaeverman at AOL.COM (Kara Everman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:29:01 EST Subject: hello Message-ID: please take me the fuck off of this stupid web list From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 02:31:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:31:39 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > < = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:32:49 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:32:49 -0500 Subject: Chillaxing Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:21:29 -0000, Michael Quinion wrote: >Another subscriber asks about "chillaxing", which a Web search shows >easily enough is a recent slang term (~2000?) created as a blend of >"chill" and "relaxing". DTWW has Usenet cites from 1994 for "chillax" and 1998 for "chillaxin": http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chillax/ >It turned up in a reader's review in the issue of Newsday >for 8 December last year about "Destiny Fulfilled", the reunion album >of Destiny's Child: "The album as a whole ... actually sounds like a >parody of a hip-hop record, and is, in fact, too played out for >servin', too wack for chillaxing, and much too bunk to twurk to." > >Could somebody give me a translation of the last bit? And what's the >cultural context here - is it enough to say it's rap slang, or is >there more that needs to be said? Sounds like ironic hyper-hiphoppery, perhaps assisted by the online Rap Dictionary... http://www.rapdict.org/Bunk bunk 1. Unpleasant, bad. 2. A load of bunk: a lot of nonsense. http://www.rapdict.org/Twurk Twurk 1. Twurk is a type of dance. "Shorty you can twurk in your skirt, if you want to" -- Ying Yang Twins (Whistle While You Twurk) [1] (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/yingyang/walking/whistle.yng.txt), "How many dollars its gone take, to see you bounce that ass girl make that ass twurk" -- Beelow f/ Ms. Peaches (How Many Dollars) [2] (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/beelow/holic/how_many.bee.txt) 2. To have sexual intercourse. --Ben Zimmer From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 02:38:33 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:38:33 EST Subject: indenting paragraphs Message-ID: Not a dialect question, but maybe of interest: what's going on with indentation of the first line of paragraphs? I've been noticing that more of my students are not indenting. Did someone change the rules since Miss Farley taught me in fourth grade? I've got a series of books here from the Open University --none indent paragraphs--they put spaces between them instead. I've got a St. Martin's Handbook on academic and professional writing--2003 and it not only does it not even mention indenting paragraphs, its own style is to not indent the first paragraph in each section, and then to indent all subsequent paragraphs. AND--now that I look at American Speech, it's doing the same thing: indents all but the first paragraph in each section. Some of my students coming from community college are telling me they were taught not to indent. How long has this been going on? Dale Coye Wilton, NH From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:53:20 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:53:20 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter: > >These odd terms seem to be made up. John Baker: > >The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW Team": >Hi there, > >Thanks for writing! > >Yes - Lynn did make up the ‘jive talk’ >that the kids in the strip are using. > >Have a great day, > >Allison >Allison Zadorozny >FBorFW Team >www.fborfw.com This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times fell for: . Perhaps Lynn Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into circulation. --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:57:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:57:48 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <19980.69.142.143.59.1106794400.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Jonathan Lighter: >> >>These odd terms seem to be made up. > >John Baker: >> >>The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >>According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. > >Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW >Team": > >>Hi there, >> >>Thanks for writing! > > >>Yes - Lynn did make up the ‘jive talk’ >>that the kids in the strip are using. >> >>Have a great day, >> >>Allison >>Allison Zadorozny >>FBorFW Team > >www.fborfw.com > >This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >circulation. Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the "Mean Girls" version of Evanston... Larry From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Thu Jan 27 02:58:51 2005 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:58:51 -0600 Subject: indenting Message-ID: I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 03:27:22 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:27:22 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:13:20 -0600, Patti J. Kurtz wrote: >Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of >"good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's >something my characters would say. Newspaperarchive dates it back to 1879: Marion Daily Star (Ohio), March 25, 1879, p. 3/2 "Call again -- very busy -- see you later -- got to go right over the river!" said the restaurant man as he got away out of sight. Looks fairly common in the 1880s-90s. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 03:53:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:53:03 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:57:48 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >>This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >>fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >>Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >>circulation. > >Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the >"Mean Girls" version of Evanston... And then there's "grotty" from _A Hard Day's Night_... ----- http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html This word actually came into public use from the film... The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty (The Beatles, Making). ----- Ah-- I see this was discussed on the list back in 2002: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0207a&L=ads-l&D=0#60 --Ben Zimmer From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 27 04:19:07 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:19:07 -0500 Subject: God in the details (1960) In-Reply-To: <31d0cd00adbbb49f3c34c77d339f9853@rcn.com> Message-ID: >On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, sagehen wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sagehen >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Wilson Gray writes: >> >>>> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >>>> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not >>>> sought >>>> out and eliminated. >>> >>> Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >>> person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >>> suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years >> ago >> (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that >> quite >> a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them >> were young enough that their experience of its use was probably >> literary or >> at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But >> here >> you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding >> general among blacks of your generation? >> A. Murie >> > >Yes, it is. That it might have some other meaning is a possibility that >has caught me completely by surprise. I've consulted my brother and a >few old - no pun intended - friends and they agree with me. We know >only the "passing-for-white" meaning and the 'hidden-problem" meaning >is one that none of us has come across before. > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ I found an old posting to ads-l from Doug Wilson, summer 2000: >RHHDAS shows the sense of (1) "hidden nefarious thing" from 1843, the >>sense of (2) "black ancestor" from 1953. >It is my belief that the use of the expression in the first sense was >virtually obsolete in many circles by the time of the origin of the second >sense. Thus (I think) many people around 1950 still recognized the >expression but no longer remembered what it meant, and therefore applied it >to something different. ~~~~~~~~~~ One is bound to wonder whether the source of the RHHDAS entry was ignorant of or inattentive to the interpretation given this by blacks before 1953. AM From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Jan 27 04:19:59 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:19:59 -0500 Subject: Copasetic Message-ID: With the originator's permission, I cross-post this message from the Publore listserv (Public Sector Folklore, not the 'lore of pubs'). They are currently discussing 'copasetic.' >Credit where credit is due: the word was coined by the great jazz tap >artist Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949). As his entry in American >National Biography Online notes >(http://www.anb.org/articles/18/18-00990.html), it was in his >hometown of Richmond, Va., that "he invented the famous phrase >'everything's copasetic,' meaning everything's tip-top or first-rate." > >--Jurretta Heckscher ~~~~~~ >Dr. Jurretta Jordan >Heckscher >Research Specialist >Digital Reference Team >The Library of Congress >Washington, D.C. 20540-4604 Michael McKernan From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 04:33:54 2005 From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:33:54 -0800 Subject: indenting paragraphs Message-ID: I'd like to know the current status of "indenting paragraphs," too. Perhaps the dropping of indentions comes from web writing? Those learning to write for the web (especially in web journalism classes) are taught to write shorter paragraphs and put spaces between them because it is easier to read online that way. If I'm not mistaken, indenting paragraphs on a web site used to be more difficult than it is now because of technology. Have the "official" style guides changed their rules on this? If they have, I'd love to know, too. I'd also like to know if anyone is aware of the history of paragraph indention. When did it begin? Why? When did it become the standard way of writing? Jason Norris Dale Coye wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dale Coye Subject: indenting paragraphs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not a dialect question, but maybe of interest: what's going on with indentation of the first line of paragraphs? I've been noticing that more of my students are not indenting. Did someone change the rules since Miss Farley taught me in fourth grade? I've got a series of books here from the Open University --none indent paragraphs--they put spaces between them instead. I've got a St. Martin's Handbook on academic and professional writing--2003 and it not only does it not even mention indenting paragraphs, its own style is to not indent the first paragraph in each section, and then to indent all subsequent paragraphs. AND--now that I look at American Speech, it's doing the same thing: indents all but the first paragraph in each section. Some of my students coming from community college are telling me they were taught not to indent. How long has this been going on? Dale Coye Wilton, NH If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it? -- Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 06:38:59 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:38:59 EST Subject: "What have you done for me lately?" (1944); Movie (1915); "Beat 'em in alley" Message-ID: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY? ... It's earlier here in the Barkley story in 1944, but I think the 1946 joke by Lou Holtz (told for years?) is the source of this. Don't know what Fred has lately. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_ _Barkley's Favorite Story Is Being Used Against Him_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=217835252&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT =309&VName=HNP&TS=1106805327&clientId=65882) By DREW PEARSON. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 5, 1944. p. B5 (1 page) ... "Then why is it," asked Barkley, "that you're going to vote against me now?" .. The veteran pondered a minute, then replied: "But what have you done for me lately?" ... _WHAT MAKES YOU LAUGH?_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=415595711&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106805327& clientId=65882) Maurice Zolotow. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 8, 1946. p. E4 (3 pages) First page: "HINKEL," he cries, "why did you keep stalling me off like this> Why did you make me wait outside four fays? Aren't we old friends? Didn't I save your life at Chateau-Thierry in 1918? Didn't I? ... "Sure," remarks Hinkel casually. ... "And after the war, didn't I give you your first job? And when you wanted to go into business for yourself, who loaned you the money? Who introduced you to the girl who is now your wife? And during the depression when you were nearly in bakruptcy, who came to your rescue and staked you? I did, didn't I?" ... Hinkel listens thoughtfully, and then he inquires, "Yes, Schartz--but what have you done for me _lately_?" ... Holtz sighed as he finished the story. He sucked on his cigar. "It's a funny story, isn't it?" he said. "I've told it in every theater I played in the last couple of years. Nobody laughs. Nobody laughs at it in New York. Nobody laughs at it in California. It's the funniest story I ever heard but nobofy laughs at it. Maybe the audience is waiting to find out what Schwartz _did_ do for Hinkel lately?" ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "IF YOU CAN BEAT 'EM IN THE ALLEY" ... Fortunately, Conn Smythe wrote an autobiography, with Scott Young. It was titled with the catchphrase: IF YOU CAN BEAT 'EM IN THE ALLEY (Toronto: McClelland and Stewart, 1981). ... Does the New York Public Library have it? Of course not! I'm not going to inter-library loan it--that will take five years. Fred Shapiro or Gerald Cohen can do that, or it will have to wait for my next Library of Congress trip. ... (PAGES OF THE PAST) 1 March 1958, Toronto Star, pg. 29: He might even have been raised in this tradition that i you can't lick 'em in the alley you're a dead pigeon on ice, and Solly looks tough enough to take care of himself. ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "MOVIE" IN PHOTOPLAY ... No source is cited for the word in this long article of editors' opinions. ... ... April 1915, PHOTOPLAY, pg. 129: _The Question Is Now Settled_ ... _THE WORD IS ELECTED BY_ _THE NATION'S EDITORS, TO_ _A PLACE IN THE DICTIONARY_ ... _MOVIE_ ... YES: 511. NO: 222. MOVIE WINS!! ... Five weeks ago PHOTOPLAY MAGAZINE sent a question to one thousand editors throughout the United States. Answers were received from 733 of these. ... Here was the query: "Do you consider the word 'movie,' as applied to a moving picture theatre of film, a good word, and do you approve of its use in your newspaper?" ... Care was taken to reach every sort of community that patronizes pictures in America. PHOTOPLAY MAGAZINE's ballot scattered down through Arizona, New Mexico and the orange-lands of California; up the North Coast into the land of the apple and wheat; through the cotton states; over the great Middle West; into the sanctums of Eastern intellectuals; up into Maine and New Hampshire; into Pennsylvania's coal and iron; over the rolling hills of Virginia and the chivalrous South. ... There was rousing enthusiasm for "movie;" rumblings, denunciations, thunders and growls against it. ... The consensus of opinion, as given above, makes for its use. ... The majority vote in its favor is not sectional; if it were it might well be doubted. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 08:20:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 03:20:52 EST Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) Message-ID: >From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, pg. 669: ... 11. [Death is] nature's way of telling you to slow down. life insurance proverb, in Newsweek 25 April 1960. ... 12 The Devil is in the details. late 20th century saying ... ... ... Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 25 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=330602592&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106812 688&clientId=65882) The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). May 1, 1917. p. I6 (1 page) ... _distress after eating_ Nature's way of telling you that your digestion is out of order. (...) Dr. Williams Pink Pills for Pale People ... ... _Display Ad 31 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=480962502&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813 028&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 13, 1930. p. 33 (1 page) ... When you feel any of the every-day occurences of sour stomach, sick headache, heartburn, biliousness, it is nature's way of telling you there's something wrong. (...) MILNESIA WAFERS ... ... _Graffiti To Print_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=82582599&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813236&clien tId=65882) By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) First page: ,,,e.g., DEATH IS NATURE'S WAY OF TELLING YOU TO SLOW DOWN. Second page: "Jesus Saves" bulletins rarely escape defacement. The two most common subscripts: PLAID STAMPS and BUT MOSES INVESTS. ... ... JESUS SAVES + MOSES INVESTS--2,400 Google hits, 1,210 Google Groups hits ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Playground Daily News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2kQ7QBcVsKGhXZvXpAhGlDHKP8ZE3bvS0UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, October 13, 1966 _Fort Walton Beach,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:fort_walton_beach+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Florida_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:florida+jesus+saves+a nd+moses+invests) ...on flat at 20th CenturyFox: ''JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS Lee Marvin turned.....tones. Instead it added to the mvsterv AND international intrigue, AND ;ami IOH.. ... _Port Arthur News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2q96Cko3h3jZSP2dDFM8I/P6Axh5ozcn+UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November 03, 1966 _Port Arthur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:port_arthur+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Texas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:texas+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) ...on a fiat at 20th CenturyFox: "JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS" Lee Marvin turned.....where a burglar had broken awindow AND attempted to steal from a vending.. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jan 27 13:18:49 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:18:49 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 03:20:52AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? You're probably thinking of Spirit, from their great 1970 album _The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus._ Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:17:35 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:17:35 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: OED incredibly offers no exx. of "See you later!" in either a literal or formulaic sense, but has formulaic "See you soon!" from 1891 and "See you again!" from 1906. In 1950s N.Y.C., these were common, as were the even more informal "See ya!" and "See ya 'round!" In my own mind, at least, "See ya later!" always seemed to be literal, referring to a particular time that day. That it was also used as a mere formula didn't occur to me until I left N.Y.C. in the mid-'70s. I actually remember being slightly taken aback by it. When I said it to my mother over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? You're in Tennessee." The point of all this is that you could place "See ya later!" any time after 1890 without derailing history, though the reality might bemore complicated and somebody could still carp at you. Meanwhile, we should all send Jesse some sorely needed cites. JL "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" Subject: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of "good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's something my characters would say. Thanks! Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jan 27 14:24:24 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:24:24 +0000 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >When I said it to my mother over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? You're in Tennessee." > > > So does that give us a 2005 cite for 'Ameche', Jon? JG From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Jan 27 14:25:48 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:25:48 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: From: Dave Wilton :somebody else wrote: :: The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to :: me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably :: means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" :: sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, :: or at least would be out of context. : In this context, I read "roadside" to be a reference to a : streetwalker. As for me, i read it as a reference to sex in a parked car. (And "hands on" didn't seem short of intercourse to me--but that may have been from the later "been there".) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:27:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:27:49 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >When I said it to my mother over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? You're in Tennessee." > > > So does that give us a 2005 cite for 'Ameche', Jon? JG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jan 27 14:39:06 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:39:06 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050127142749.72855.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:27:49AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. > > P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. Here's a completely unexplained and natural use from British socialite and convicted cokehead Taki Theodoracopulos, in a British publication no less: 1997 'Taki' in _Spectator_ 23 Aug. 46 All I did was lift the Ameche. The next thing was instant immortality. And here's one from Nick Tosches, again unexplained: 2002 N. Tosches _In Hand of Dante_ 44, I got no complaints, really. Except maybe that quick draw on the Ameche that you're developin' there. I have other uses from the 2000s, but they're all self-referential. Still, I think we can all get away with using it. We're professionals; no one would dare question us. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:41:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:41:24 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: All these conjectures attest to the ingenuity of our correspondents, but then look what I did with "Use at your own risk." If the terms are real, all (except I suppose for the suggested nuance of "been there") are so recent and/or local that it would make hbetter sense to watch out for earlier attestations. "Gig," by the way, has become so vague and general in recentryears (= "thing") that the lone entry in UrbanDictionary may even be coincidental. BTW, for twenty-two years a friend of mine has applied "user-friendly" to amatively cooperative Vagino-Americans. Is he alone in this? BTW, "Vagino-American" came from "The National Lampoon" ca1977 and I've been waiting since then for a chance to use it. Apologies to all. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Wilton :somebody else wrote: :: The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to :: me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably :: means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" :: sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, :: or at least would be out of context. : In this context, I read "roadside" to be a reference to a : streetwalker. As for me, i read it as a reference to sex in a parked car. (And "hands on" didn't seem short of intercourse to me--but that may have been from the later "been there".) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jan 27 14:44:02 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:44:02 +0000 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "See You Later" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. > >P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. > > > I ought to throw this in, then: 2004 Tim Dorsey _Cadillac Beach_ 189: 'How’d you hear?’ ‘Jawed with him on the Ameche.’ That said, it occurs in a page of conscious archaisms - Dorsey has a deranged modern cop pretending to be his 40s equivalent - nonetheless... JG From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:44:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:44:01 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we *can* imagine." --Some Guy. Before Now. Fred? JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:27:49AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. > > P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. Here's a completely unexplained and natural use from British socialite and convicted cokehead Taki Theodoracopulos, in a British publication no less: 1997 'Taki' in _Spectator_ 23 Aug. 46 All I did was lift the Ameche. The next thing was instant immortality. And here's one from Nick Tosches, again unexplained: 2002 N. Tosches _In Hand of Dante_ 44, I got no complaints, really. Except maybe that quick draw on the Ameche that you're developin' there. I have other uses from the 2000s, but they're all self-referential. Still, I think we can all get away with using it. We're professionals; no one would dare question us. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 15:01:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:01:28 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6chkfh@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: I remember hearing "Pain is nature's way of telling you to slow down" a zillion times a day on the radio, back in the '40's. It was the slogan for some patent medicine or other of the day, Dr. Bengué's Ointment, I think it was, but I can't recall for certain. This ointment is, of course, the same patent medicine still being sold to this day as "Ben-Gay." According to a book of graffiti that I once read - I can't recall whether it was in the late '50's or the early '60's - the "death" version began life as a graffito parodying the "pain" slogan. This same book claimed that "Moses invests" was a grafitto written in response to a "Jesus saves" graffito. The book also contained the following: 1) My mother made me a homosexual 2) If I get her the material, will she make me one, too? -Wilson Gray "Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but > Moses > invests" (1966) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, pg. 669: > ... > 11. [Death is] nature's way of telling you to slow down. > life insurance proverb, in Newsweek 25 April 1960. > ... > 12 The Devil is in the details. > late 20th century saying > ... > ... > ... > Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _Display Ad 25 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=330602592&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106812 > 688&clientId=65882) > The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). May 1, 1917. p. I6 (1 page) > ... > _distress after eating_ > Nature's way of telling you that your digestion is out of order. > (...) > Dr. Williams Pink Pills for Pale People > ... > ... > _Display Ad 31 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=480962502&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813 > 028&clientId=65882) > Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 13, 1930. p. 33 > (1 > page) > ... > When you feel any of the every-day occurences of sour stomach, sick > headache, heartburn, biliousness, it is nature's way of telling you > there's something > wrong. > (...) > MILNESIA WAFERS > ... > ... > _Graffiti To Print_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=82582599&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1106813236&clien > tId=65882) > By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Feb > 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) > First page: > ,,,e.g., DEATH IS NATURE'S WAY OF TELLING YOU TO SLOW DOWN. > Second page: > "Jesus Saves" bulletins rarely escape defacement. The two most common > subscripts: PLAID STAMPS and BUT MOSES INVESTS. > ... > ... > JESUS SAVES + MOSES INVESTS--2,400 Google hits, 1,210 Google Groups > hits > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Playground Daily News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/ > 6NLMW2kQ7QBcVsKGhXZvXpAhGlDHKP8ZE3bvS0UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > October 13, 1966 _Fort Walton Beach,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > fort_walton_beach+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Florida_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > florida+jesus+saves+a > nd+moses+invests) > ...on flat at 20th CenturyFox: ''JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS Lee Marvin > turned.....tones. Instead it added to the mvsterv AND international > intrigue, AND > ;ami IOH.. > > ... > _Port Arthur News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/ > 6NLMW2q96Cko3h3jZSP2dDFM8I/P6Axh5ozcn+UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November > 03, 1966 _Port Arthur,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > port_arthur+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Texas_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > texas+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) > ...on a fiat at 20th CenturyFox: "JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS" Lee > Marvin > turned.....where a burglar had broken awindow AND attempted to steal > from a > vending.. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 15:03:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:03:53 -0800 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: I actually researched this once, so naturally I can't remember anything I found out except that cigarettes in one form another predate the Crimean War. Hey, the OED has "French ladies" smokin' like chimneys in 1842! So my credibility is thoroughly back! Before then, I seem to recall, "cigarettes" might be referred to in literature as "(little) cigars" or something similar. Most of my early knowledge came from comic books, Wilson, so I share what must be your profound disillusionment. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > <> = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 15:06:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:06:25 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050127144401.72672.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than > we *can* imagine." > --Some > Guy. Before Now. Fred? Now, my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J. B. S. Haldane, Possible Worlds and Other Essays (1927) Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 27 15:15:30 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:15:30 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: According to Wikipedia, cigarettes were largely unknown in the English-speaking world prior to the Crimean War. However, Tobacco.org was this account of the invention of the modern cigarette: <<1832: TURKEY: Invention of the paper-rolled cigarette? While Southwest Indians, Aztecs and Mayans had used hollow reeds, cane or maize to fashion cylindrical tobacco-holders, and Sevillians had rolled cigar-scraps in thrown-away paper (papeletes), an Egyptian artilleryman [in the Turk/Egyptian war] is credited with the invention of the cigarette as we know it. In the siege of Acre, the Egyptian's cannon crew had improved their rate of fire by rolling the gunpowder in paper tubes. For this, he and his crew were rewarded with a pound of tobacco. Their sole pipe was broken, however, so they took to rolling the pipe tobacco in the paper. The invention spread among both Egyptian and Turkish soldiers. And thus . . . (Good-Bye to All That, 1970)>> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:04 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? I actually researched this once, so naturally I can't remember anything I found out except that cigarettes in one form another predate the Crimean War. Hey, the OED has "French ladies" smokin' like chimneys in 1842! So my credibility is thoroughly back! Before then, I seem to recall, "cigarettes" might be referred to in literature as "(little) cigars" or something similar. Most of my early knowledge came from comic books, Wilson, so I share what must be your profound disillusionment. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > <> = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 15:27:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:27:48 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) Message-ID: Those graffiti books were almost certainly from ca1970. I saw "Death is nature's way..." around 1976 and the "mother made me..." a year or so earlier. A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At You, Earthman." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember hearing "Pain is nature's way of telling you to slow down" a zillion times a day on the radio, back in the '40's. It was the slogan for some patent medicine or other of the day, Dr. Bengu�'s Ointment, I think it was, but I can't recall for certain. This ointment is, of course, the same patent medicine still being sold to this day as "Ben-Gay." According to a book of graffiti that I once read - I can't recall whether it was in the late '50's or the early '60's - the "death" version began life as a graffito parodying the "pain" slogan. This same book claimed that "Moses invests" was a grafitto written in response to a "Jesus saves" graffito. The book also contained the following: 1) My mother made me a homosexual 2) If I get her the material, will she make me one, too? -Wilson Gray "Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but > Moses > invests" (1966) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, pg. 669: > ... > 11. [Death is] nature's way of telling you to slow down. > life insurance proverb, in Newsweek 25 April 1960. > ... > 12 The Devil is in the details. > late 20th century saying > ... > ... > ... > Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _Display Ad 25 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=330602592&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106812 > 688&clientId=65882) > The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). May 1, 1917. p. I6 (1 page) > ... > _distress after eating_ > Nature's way of telling you that your digestion is out of order. > (...) > Dr. Williams Pink Pills for Pale People > ... > ... > _Display Ad 31 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=480962502&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813 > 028&clientId=65882) > Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 13, 1930. p. 33 > (1 > page) > ... > When you feel any of the every-day occurences of sour stomach, sick > headache, heartburn, biliousness, it is nature's way of telling you > there's something > wrong. > (...) > MILNESIA WAFERS > ... > ... > _Graffiti To Print_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=82582599&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1106813236&clien > tId=65882) > By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Feb > 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) > First page: > ,,,e.g., DEATH IS NATURE'S WAY OF TELLING YOU TO SLOW DOWN. > Second page: > "Jesus Saves" bulletins rarely escape defacement. The two most common > subscripts: PLAID STAMPS and BUT MOSES INVESTS. > ... > ... > JESUS SAVES + MOSES INVESTS--2,400 Google hits, 1,210 Google Groups > hits > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Playground Daily News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/ > 6NLMW2kQ7QBcVsKGhXZvXpAhGlDHKP8ZE3bvS0UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > October 13, 1966 _Fort Walton Beach,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > fort_walton_beach+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Florida_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > florida+jesus+saves+a > nd+moses+invests) > ...on flat at 20th CenturyFox: ''JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS Lee Marvin > turned.....tones. Instead it added to the mvsterv AND international > intrigue, AND > ;ami IOH.. > > ... > _Port Arthur News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/ > 6NLMW2q96Cko3h3jZSP2dDFM8I/P6Axh5ozcn+UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November > 03, 1966 _Port Arthur,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > port_arthur+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Texas_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > texas+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) > ...on a fiat at 20th CenturyFox: "JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS" Lee > Marvin > turned.....where a burglar had broken awindow AND attempted to steal > from a > vending.. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 15:31:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:31:15 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <41F8FE32.5080601@abecedary.net> Message-ID: At 2:44 PM +0000 1/27/05, Jonathon Green wrote: >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: "See You Later" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. >> >>P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this >>term, let us know. >> >> >I ought to throw this in, then: > >2004 Tim Dorsey _Cadillac Beach_ 189: 'How'd you hear?' 'Jawed with him >on the Ameche.' > >That said, it occurs in a page of conscious archaisms - Dorsey has a >deranged modern cop pretending to be his 40s equivalent - nonetheless... > >JG Googling "the Ameche" brings up 195 hits, and judging from a quick look-see, many of these have the intended telephonic referent, even after you eliminate references to "the Ameche ballroom", "the Ameche story", and for all I know, if you look through all the hits, "the Ameche 1-yard touchdown run to defeat the Giants in 1958". larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 15:50:05 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:50:05 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:44 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "See You Later" > > > "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is > stranger than we *can* imagine." > > --Some Guy. Before Now. Fred? "The universe is not only queerer than what we suppose, it is queerer than we can suppose." I've seen it attributed to Arthur Eddington (and Arthur C. Clarke), but it looks like it was said by J. B. S. Haldane. Wikipedia says it was in his story "My Friend Mr. Leakey", but an online version: http://www.marxists.org/archive/haldane/works/1930s/leakey.htm does not have it. Let's hear it for open source . . . . From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 16:29:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:29:27 -0600 Subject: "the ameche" was RE: "See You Later" Message-ID: >From the comic strip "Freckles and his Friends" 11/23/1944, Merrill Blosser, NEA Service. Panel 1: Mr. Wilson (principal?) "-- And if this keeps up, the English Language will eventually lose its identity! -- For instance, studying is not "worming." High school is NOT a "brain factory." A diploma is NOT a "parole." Freckles: "Yes, Sir!" Panel 2 Secretary (answering phone): "Mr. Wilson's office!" Mr. Wilson (still talking to Freckles): "If this strange language is continued, it may even contaminate the FACULTY!" Panel 3 Secretary (to Mr. Wilson): "Somebody wants to talk to you on the Ameche!" Mr. Wilson's pince nez glasses pop off his face in astonishment! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:29:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:29:40 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Yesssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. "Dish" = "desirable guy" predates Jasper. Young women were already referring to such guys as "foxes" in the '70s. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Jonathan Lighter: >> >>These odd terms seem to be made up. > >John Baker: >> >>The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >>According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. > >Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW >Team": > >>Hi there, >> >>Thanks for writing! > > >>Yes - Lynn did make up the �jive talk� >>that the kids in the strip are using. >> >>Have a great day, >> >>Allison >>Allison Zadorozny >>FBorFW Team > >www.fborfw.com > >This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >circulation. Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the "Mean Girls" version of Evanston... Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:30:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:30:44 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Last message went out before I could change "predates" to "should predate." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Jonathan Lighter: >> >>These odd terms seem to be made up. > >John Baker: >> >>The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >>According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. > >Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW >Team": > >>Hi there, >> >>Thanks for writing! > > >>Yes - Lynn did make up the �jive talk� >>that the kids in the strip are using. >> >>Have a great day, >> >>Allison >>Allison Zadorozny >>FBorFW Team > >www.fborfw.com > >This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >circulation. Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the "Mean Girls" version of Evanston... Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:34:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:34:33 -0800 Subject: God in the details (1960) Message-ID: Pre-1953 cites welcomed. In fact, demanded. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: God in the details (1960) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, sagehen wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sagehen >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Wilson Gray writes: >> >>>> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >>>> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not >>>> sought >>>> out and eliminated. >>> >>> Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >>> person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >>> suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years >> ago >> (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that >> quite >> a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them >> were young enough that their experience of its use was probably >> literary or >> at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But >> here >> you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding >> general among blacks of your generation? >> A. Murie >> > >Yes, it is. That it might have some other meaning is a possibility that >has caught me completely by surprise. I've consulted my brother and a >few old - no pun intended - friends and they agree with me. We know >only the "passing-for-white" meaning and the 'hidden-problem" meaning >is one that none of us has come across before. > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ I found an old posting to ads-l from Doug Wilson, summer 2000: >RHHDAS shows the sense of (1) "hidden nefarious thing" from 1843, the >>sense of (2) "black ancestor" from 1953. >It is my belief that the use of the expression in the first sense was >virtually obsolete in many circles by the time of the origin of the second >sense. Thus (I think) many people around 1950 still recognized the >expression but no longer remembered what it meant, and therefore applied it >to something different. ~~~~~~~~~~ One is bound to wonder whether the source of the RHHDAS entry was ignorant of or inattentive to the interpretation given this by blacks before 1953. AM --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 27 16:34:37 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:34:37 -0500 Subject: limousine liberal WAS Grass roots Message-ID: NYC's beloved (to some) Big Tim Sullivan described the "goo-goos' (good government reformers, who were chief among those to whom he was not beloved) as "silk hats, silk stockings, and nothing much in between". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:50 pm Subject: limousine liberal WAS Grass roots > The 1912 McClure's Magazine cite from the OED is in the APS ProQuest > database. > That same article includes an interest antecedent for "limousine > liberal": > > MANUFACTURING PUBLIC OPINION > BY GEORGE KIBBE TURNER > McClure's Magazine (1893-1926); Jul 1912; VOL. XXXIX, No. 3; APS > Onlinepg. 316 > > "The silk-hat and limousine vote, bound together in the Taft leagues, > swung > heavily for Taft; the factory vote went strongly for Roosevelt." > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Quinion > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:48 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Grass roots > > > > > > > The OED has it from June 1912 in reference to the attempt by > > Teddy Roosevelt to become president. I've found a number of > > examples from that year, all in reference to his campaign, > > which might suggest it was coined by somebody connected to > > it. There's also one from 1920 on newpaperarchive.com that > > links the sense to Roosevelt's principles. > > "America in So Many Words" dates it to 1902, but that is in > > the sense of the fundamentals of a situation. > > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:37:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:37:13 -0800 Subject: Copasetic Message-ID: A: Evidence ? B: If there is any, the question of etymology remains unresolved. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Copasetic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With the originator's permission, I cross-post this message from the Publore listserv (Public Sector Folklore, not the 'lore of pubs'). They are currently discussing 'copasetic.' >Credit where credit is due: the word was coined by the great jazz tap >artist Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949). As his entry in American >National Biography Online notes >(http://www.anb.org/articles/18/18-00990.html), it was in his >hometown of Richmond, Va., that "he invented the famous phrase >'everything's copasetic,' meaning everything's tip-top or first-rate." > >--Jurretta Heckscher ~~~~~~ >Dr. Jurretta Jordan >Heckscher >Research Specialist >Digital Reference Team >The Library of Congress >Washington, D.C. 20540-4604 Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 27 16:51:04 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:51:04 -0500 Subject: hello In-Reply-To: <20050127050314.011DAB2854@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Kara Everman wrote: >>> please take me the fuck off of this stupid web list <<< When you subscribed to this list, you received a message with the subject "You are now subscribed to the ADS-L list". It contained the following sentence, prominently displayed in a paragraph of its own: >>> You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF ADS-L" command to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU. <<< I recommend that you RTFM. In case you are unfamiliar with that initialism, it means "read the fucking manual", or in this case "read the fucking message". Sincerely yours, Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jan 27 16:52:02 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:52:02 -0800 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <012601c5041c$22428f70$c5c23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: I haven't indented a paragraph in years. For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using the 14th edition. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to > Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they > rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn > to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail > sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 16:57:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:57:11 -0600 Subject: Canadian Ballet Message-ID: >From the blog The Comics Curmudgeon: http://joshreads.com/index.php?p=53 "And so, just as there are enormous fireworks warehouses mere yards over the Indiana border, dozens of strip clubs line the streets of the Canadian towns just across the Niagara River from Buffalo. (These clubs were collectively known as "the Canadian ballet," a euphemism I find terrifically amusing to this day.) " From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 17:04:10 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:04:10 -0500 Subject: Channumas Message-ID: >From the minutes of the December 15, 1978 meeting of the Washington [DC] Science Fiction Association, posted on-line at http://www.wsfa.org/journal/j79/1/ "The seasonal shrub, in honor of Channimas, was decorated with fannish trinkets, around its feet were piled the books we voted ourselves, in sentimental profusion: there would be egg nog." "Channimas" apparently is a misspelling of "Channumas". I don't recall anything about Channumas (in any spelling), even though the same minutes claim I was present at the meeting. It was a long-standing tradition in WSFA to have a "pagan tree trimming" in December, but I don't recall anyone in WSFA referring to the occasion as "Channumas". A Google search turns up a little less than 2,000 hits on various spellings of "Channumas". - Jim Landau From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Jan 27 17:12:20 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:12:20 +0000 Subject: the genital case In-Reply-To: <200501252206.j0PM6HsQ007462@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: Couldn't resist sharing this with you. Incidentally, typographic slang for an exclamation mark/point is a dog's cock. Perhaps that influenced the author: "Why don't you help Terry to a shower," he said, "later, I have some more questions I want to put to her." "Why is a shower important?" Mavis pouted. She frowned at Phil's wide grin. "I am to use my exclamation point on her again and I want a nice, clean, perfumy sentence to punctuate." - Dana Swanson, 'Blackmailed Into Swapping', Chelsea Library Press, San Diego, 1970s Online at http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels/clp/Dana_Swanson.Bla ckmailed_Into_Swapping.CLP-174.txt From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Jan 27 17:22:19 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:22:19 -0500 Subject: "the ameche" was RE: "See You Later" Message-ID: Bill Mullins wrote: >>From the comic strip "Freckles and his Friends" 11/23/1944, Merrill >Blosser, NEA Service. Nice to see 'Freckles and his Friends' (an old research subject of mine) in the limelight. But I believe that some time before 1944, Henry Formhals had taken over production of the strip, ghostwriting/drawing, while still using originator Merrill Blosser's signature and syndication. Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 17:20:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:20:20 -0800 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: Nothing Graves *ever* says about things he didn't see should be accepted on faith. Some of what he did see is questionable too. Outstanding poet, great story-teller. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Wikipedia, cigarettes were largely unknown in the English-speaking world prior to the Crimean War. However, Tobacco.org was this account of the invention of the modern cigarette: <<1832: TURKEY: Invention of the paper-rolled cigarette? While Southwest Indians, Aztecs and Mayans had used hollow reeds, cane or maize to fashion cylindrical tobacco-holders, and Sevillians had rolled cigar-scraps in thrown-away paper (papeletes), an Egyptian artilleryman [in the Turk/Egyptian war] is credited with the invention of the cigarette as we know it. In the siege of Acre, the Egyptian's cannon crew had improved their rate of fire by rolling the gunpowder in paper tubes. For this, he and his crew were rewarded with a pound of tobacco. Their sole pipe was broken, however, so they took to rolling the pipe tobacco in the paper. The invention spread among both Egyptian and Turkish soldiers. And thus . . . (Good-Bye to All That, 1970)>> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:04 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? I actually researched this once, so naturally I can't remember anything I found out except that cigarettes in one form another predate the Crimean War. Hey, the OED has "French ladies" smokin' like chimneys in 1842! So my credibility is thoroughly back! Before then, I seem to recall, "cigarettes" might be referred to in literature as "(little) cigars" or something similar. Most of my early knowledge came from comic books, Wilson, so I share what must be your profound disillusionment. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > <> = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jan 27 17:31:39 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:31:39 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050126182532.02f7feb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Well, now I can see why Fiske's dictionary itself might be disagreeable. At 06:31 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: >>Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being used >>as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun >>"consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to >>realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among child-rearing >>types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a while now? > >Robert Hartwell Fiske's "Dictionary of Disagreeable English" defines this >verb and provides a brief critique: > ><_punish_. .... / Not yet in many dictionaries, the politically correct, >though completely inane and pathetic, to _consequence_ is increasingly used >by psychologists and human resource personnel, themselves often inane and >pathetic. ....>> > >-- Doug Wilson From Vocabula at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 17:52:07 2005 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:52:07 EST Subject: Consequence, as a verb Message-ID: In a message dated 1/27/2005 12:35:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: Well, now I can see why Fiske's dictionary itself might be disagreeable. Yeah? Well, I'm no fan of Flanigan ... (Fiske himself is far more disagreeable than his dictionary) Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com/ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 _________________________ Two Vocabula Books: The Dictionary of Disagreeable English http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp "However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this lovely, sour, virtuous book." — Wall Street Journal Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in The Vocabula Review over the last few years From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 27 17:58:14 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:58:14 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: I forwarded Benjamin Zimmer's post to my wife. She comments: >>>>> Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" <<<<< -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 18:02:35 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:02:35 -0600 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: I've been doing some biographical research on Robert A. Heinlein late. As part of it, I ran across some comments about _Astounding Science Fiction_, the pulp that published much of his early work. They censored _everything_ that was remotely dirty, and apparently writers would make a game of getting stuff in. I read about alien names that were phonetic matches for foreign cuss words, and reference to a "ball bearing rat catcher" (nominally, a device that includes ball bearings, but the in-joke was that it was a tomcat, i.e., it bears balls). > > Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the > only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a > censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if > you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" > > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 27 18:05:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:05:14 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <20050127162941.22297.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2005, at 11:29, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York >> Times fell for: . Perhaps Lynn Johnston was trying to see if she >> could get some coinages into circulation. Let's not forget the dreadful "Hipster's Handbook" while we're at it. Reporters with quicklimed brains and bloggers desperate to appear fetch still quote it. I'll deck the man who farted out "deck" if I ever meet him. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jan 27 18:04:01 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:04:01 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <012601c5041c$22428f70$c5c23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: Janis, Is this a computer program, and if so, where did you get it? Would it be useful for ESL students and their teachers. If it's too child-focused, can it be upgraded? At 09:58 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: > I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to > Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they > rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn > to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail > sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:06:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:06:38 -0800 Subject: Consequence, as a verb Message-ID: To "consequence" isn't "politically correct," it's just stupid! One thing that makes it stupid is its vagueness: it doesn't = "punish" or "discipline," particularly, it's just a mealy-mouthed way of getting out of saying one or the other. It means "give, oh, I dunno, consequences, I guess. Is that OK?" Fiske and I may be consequenced for this view with cruel caricatures now and the ridicule of the English-speakers (if any) of the 22rd century. Tough. JL Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Robert Hartwell Fiske Subject: Re: Consequence, as a verb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/27/2005 12:35:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: Well, now I can see why Fiske's dictionary itself might be disagreeable. Yeah? Well, I'm no fan of Flanigan ... (Fiske himself is far more=20 disagreeable than his dictionary) Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com/ =20 The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 _________________________ =20 Two Vocabula Books:=20 =20 The Dictionary of Disagreeable English http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp=20 =20 "However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... Hi= s=20 own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this=20 lovely, sour, virtuous book." =E2=80=94 Wall Street Journal =20 =20 Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp =20 Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in= =20 The Vocabula Review over the last few years --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jan 27 18:11:10 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:11:10 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1106815922@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >I haven't indented a paragraph in years. > >For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and >signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now >I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied >to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the >indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no >space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using >the 14th edition. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart > wrote: > >> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to >>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they >>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn >>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail >>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:15:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:15:57 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: I am shocked and offended by made-up, meaningless language palmed off on us and our young children as having a recognizable and recoverable meaning. Reading the "funny papers" used to be a warm, family activity at our house, but "For Better or for Worse" has ended that forever. We without humor are Americans too! My righteous message to the appropriate governmental guardian agencies has been sent. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I forwarded Benjamin Zimmer's post to my wife. She comments: >>>>> Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" <<<<< -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:17:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:17:03 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: For proof, check out "ball-bearing WAC" in HDAS. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been doing some biographical research on Robert A. Heinlein late. As part of it, I ran across some comments about _Astounding Science Fiction_, the pulp that published much of his early work. They censored _everything_ that was remotely dirty, and apparently writers would make a game of getting stuff in. I read about alien names that were phonetic matches for foreign cuss words, and reference to a "ball bearing rat catcher" (nominally, a device that includes ball bearings, but the in-joke was that it was a tomcat, i.e., it bears balls). > > Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the > only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a > censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if > you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Jan 27 18:19:32 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:19:32 -0800 Subject: indenting Message-ID: That's why we indent. Fritz >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 01/27/05 10:11AM >>> I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 18:20:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:20:46 -0500 Subject: "Mother made me a homosexual" (1967) Message-ID: This is in the same "Jesus Saves, Moses Invests" graffiti article. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Graffiti To Print By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) Second page: Underneath the confession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL, someone scribbled: IF I GET HER THE WOOL, WILL SHE MAKE ME ONE, TOO? (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Mansfield News Friday, March 11, 1977 Mansfield, Ohio ...soggy And hArd to light. MOTHER MADE ME A homosexuAl. I send her the wool.....dirty And got the reply, New York MADE ME dirty- When soMEbody suggested, is no.. Daily Gleaner Wednesday, March 01, 1967 Kingston, Kingston ...on A wAll 'the con fession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL- Anc underneAth.....The pArticu1 r incident which MADE ME record the detAils took plAce on.. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:21:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:21:29 -0800 Subject: indenting Message-ID: Setting the margins in this d@^^'3d program is so impossible without RTFM that I don't bother. Others may have the same problem. Otherwise, indent or get consequenced. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: indenting ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >I haven't indented a paragraph in years. > >For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and >signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now >I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied >to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the >indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no >space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using >the 14th edition. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart > wrote: > >> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to >>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they >>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn >>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail >>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 27 18:58:52 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:58:52 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <20050127162941.22297.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: >"Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still >occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. > >JL ~~~~~~~~ Dunno about FB or FW, but FWIW, "grunge" & "grungy" were both alive & well and in constant use in the late 40s early 50s on the Reed College campus. They were sort of all-purpose words: could mean "stuff," could mean "crud," could be an expletive ("grunge!"). It was thought to have been an import from the USNavy: there were a lot of GI Bill vets in school then. I rarely heard it after leaving Reed, except among old Reedies, though "grungy" would turn up sporadically in fiction (esp. Brit), meaning dirty or ratty. The reappearance in the Pac NW music scene (when? late 80s, early 90s) seemed like a spontaneous new birth. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 20:31:05 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:31:05 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <20050127182129.53412.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Setting the margins in this d@^^'3d program is so impossible without >RTFM that I don't bother. Others may have the same problem. > >Otherwise, indent or get consequenced. > >JL Jon's point anticipates mine, which was that a lot of the motivation for switching from indenting paragraphs to spacing between them comes from switching between formats and platforms, in particular between plain text (as in e-mail) and word processing software. The indentation tends to just get lost; the extra spacing doesn't. L >Beverly Flanigan wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: indenting >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between >paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from >students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. > >At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >>I haven't indented a paragraph in years. >> >>For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and >>signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now >>I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied >>to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the >>indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no >>space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using >>the 14th edition. >> >>Peter Mc. >> >>--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart >> wrote: >> >>> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to >>>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they >>>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn >>>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail >>>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. >> >> >> >>***************************************************************** >>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 20:33:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:33:13 -0500 Subject: krumping Message-ID: I'm surprised this one hasn't come up here or on doubletongued.org... This year's Sundance Film Festival features "Rize", David LaChapelle's documentary about the "krumping" dance style (LaChapelle directed a short called "Krumped" that played at Sundance last year). See: . * krumping, n. 2004 _NY Times_ 21 Jan. (Arts) 1 (Nexis) His quick, excitable mode of speaking is similar to krumping, the whip-quick dancing of his subjects that includes bits of hip-hop and pantomime martial-arts movement. ... "I got to be there before krumping became a Burger King commercial, before it started getting used in videos," he said. "You can see krumping in the OutKast video, where the kids are dancing and breaking into it while wearing tuxedos." 2004 _MTV News_ 23 Apr. (online) We've gotten a potent dosage of clown dancing — or krumping, as it's called — in videos such as Missy Elliott's "I'm Really Hot" and the Black Eyed Peas "Hey Mama." ... The dance form eventually evolved into what he calls krumping. "Krumping is when you're dancing and your body is doing a lot of different moves," Tommy explained. 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) Another artist who will be arriving next week is Tommy the Clown, one of the stars of the current underground movement in Los Angeles, "krumping", which is taking over inner-city neighbourhoods. 2004 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland) 1 Jul. F1 (Nexis) Johnson sees krumping as a creative, "happy" way for teens to express themselves. There are no set moves to krumping, which is done at a hyperfast speed and mixes herky-jerky break-dance and martial-arts-style moves with spasmodic booty shaking. "It's freestyle; we go with the flow," says Johnson, who coined the term krumping. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) The allure of krumpin', a furiously energetic street dance unique to South Los Angeles, is its no-holds-barred physicality, its encouragement of improvisation and its unexpected and imaginative use of theatrical face paint. ... With Tommy's encouragement, Dragon and some of the troupe's best dancers, including 'Lil C, split off to form a group of their own, incorporating elements of break-dancing, karate and pantomime, as well as an undercurrent of very grown-up aggression. They named their new style krumpin'. * krump, v. 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) Some of Tommy's dancers were krumping in Christina Aguilera's video for "Dirty". 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) Daisy is 14 years old, with red tennis shoes, pigtails and a broad, sweet face that, when she's krumpin', becomes suddenly lean and cat-like, beautiful in the fierce manner of Egyptian queens. "It all comes out when I'm krumpin'," she says. "Everything that frustrates me and hurts me, it all comes out. I'm angry when I'm krumpin', but when I'm done, it's all good. When I'm done, I'm calm." ... "We're all of the same tree, but we're different branches," says a 19-year-old clowner named Rocco. "If we're krumpin', it's more aggressive. If we're clownin', it's more happy and go-lucky. There's a style for every mood." * krumping, attrib. 2004 _MTV News_ 23 Apr. (online) The krumping era just may be upon us. "The clowning and the krumping dance movement, it is a very positive thing because it really does keep kids off the streets," krumping originator Thomas Johnson, a.k.a. Tommy the Clown, explained in Los Angeles recently. 2004 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland) 1 Jul. F1 (Nexis) Johnson, who recently completed a krumping workshop in England, is hoping to take his show on the road. He wants to set up krumping classes in other cities and is in talks for a TV program. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) Once you've watched Daisy in a krumpin' competition, this catharsis comes as no surprise. ... As more and more clownin' and krumpin' groups began to form through the late '90s, Tommy sensed a hunger for some healthy competition between the crews. ... As Miss Prissy says this, a round of cheers marks the end of Daisy's second krumpin' session of the day. * krumped, ppl. adj. 2004 _NY Times_ 21 Jan. (Arts) 1 (Nexis) "Apparently the word krumped goes back a long ways, from the black church," Mr. LaChappelle said. "When you're krumped, you're feeling it. It's about being brave and doing something with grace." 2004 _NY Arts_ Mar./Apr. (online) When a person is said to be "Krumped" they are dancing the most intense form of a dance called "Clowning". ... "[I]f you're in that zone, if you're being brave, you're not intellectualizing and you're just flowing, you’re doing your thing and just creating – then you're 'Krumped'. That's why you're probably going to be hearing this term, it's going to become part of the vernacular." 2004 _Financial Times_ 1 May 12 (Nexis) Most of the moves are practised and rehearsed, but when a dancer is "krumped" (completely engrossed), he or she will perform moves that are purely improvisational. 2004 _Dance_ Jul. (online) "Getting krumped" is the state in which a dancer feeds off the energy of the audience, the other participants, the music, and his or her own adrenaline until the movement grows theatrical, inventive, and sometimes cathartic. * krump, n. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) As 'Lil C puts it, grinning: "The dance floor is our canvas, and krump is our 'Mona Lisa.'" * krump, attrib. 2004 _NY Arts_ Mar./Apr. (online) You go to the Krump sessions and there's not one other person there taking pictures. ... I looked at Krump Dancing as a valid art form. 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) Tommy and the Hip Hop Clowns' krump dancing and hip-hop clowning demonstrations over the weekend are set to shake up the normally measured conservatism of Sadler's Wells. "It will be explosive," promises Tommy, the Clown who is bringing over 11 krump practitioners. * krump, adj. (= "krumped") 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) "I started saying "He's getting krump" when a dancer was getting really busy with the dance moves," he says about his hyper version of clown dancing (a blend of hip-hop dancing and traditional party clowning) "but it is more athletic, more adult." 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) "You can't be krump unless you're pure, unless you truly believe in yourself." ... "You have to be born krump, you have to be in a krump state of mind." * krumpness, n. 2004 _NY Arts_ Mar./Apr. (online) The thing about "Krumpness" this term that they use is it is not just for the dancers; it's not just Krump dancing. They say this in the film - "Krumpness", can be applied to your everyday life. 2004 _Dance_ Jul. (online) As Dragon, a dancer featured in Krumped, describes it, "Krumpness is an abstraction of your inner being." 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) "Krumpness," explains Miss Prissy, a whip-thin 23-year-old and one of the original female krumpers, "is an attitude. You can see my story when I dance. There’s a lot going on down here in South Central that’s hard. There are homes being disrupted by violence, and a lot of people do drugs to deal with that, or they drink. Instead of doing that, we dance." ... "It's a real tribal movement," she says quietly. "It's hip-hop in its raw form; it's the meat before it's on the grill. That's what krumpness is, and that's how we give it to you, every time. ... Krumpness changes every day, and I think that's what's going to make it stick around." * krumper, n. 2004 _Financial Times_ 1 May 12 (Nexis) By then, he had renamed his group Tommy and the Hip Hop Clowns. Now they're called Tommy the Clown and the Hip Hop Krumpers. 2004 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland) 1 Jul. F1 (Nexis) Not only do krumpers frenetically dance like clowns, they look like them, too. 2004 _Dance_ Jul. (online) The krumpers are young and work hard. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) She and several similarly adorned krumpers have gathered in the parking lot... Interspersed among the krumpers is another group of dancers, the clowners, so named for their colorful carnival gear -- baggy patchwork pants, faces decorated with bright mosaics of circus greasepaint. Where the krumpers are tribal in their choice of makeup, the clowners have opted for a look reminiscent of turn-of-the-century vaudeville. * krumpy, adj. 2004 _Independent_ 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) "It all kicked off when we started to get all krumpy at weekends," explains Tommy the Clown, who has been up all night at a party. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 20:50:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:50:25 -0500 Subject: krumping Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:33:13 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >* krumpy, adj. > >2004 _Independent_ 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) "It all kicked off when we started >to get all krumpy at weekends," explains Tommy the Clown, who has been up >all night at a party. Upon rereading, it's pretty clear that this quote was "corrected" by the _Independent_ reporter or her editors. I highly doubt that a speaker from South Central LA would ever say "at weekends" rather than "on weekends" or "on the weekend". --Ben Zimmer From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 20:42:17 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:42:17 EST Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: The Pizzazz of Jazz: the Sanas (etymology) of Jazz (rough notes to a ragged tune) The recent research of Gerald Cohen and others has uncovered that the word "Jazz" suddenly starts to appear in the San Francisco Bulletin in March 1913 in a series of articles about baseball by Irish American reporter Edward “ Scoop” Gleeson. Early examples of jazz have nothing to do with music but refer to an intangible quality possessed by baseball players, what another writer in the S.F. Bulletin, Ernest Hopkins, described in April that year as “life, vigor, energy, effervescence of spirit, joy, pep, magnetism, verve, virility, ebulliency, courage, happiness — oh, what’s the use? — Jazz. Nothing else can express it” . (Online Etymological Notes) Teas, m, (pron. jass or chass) Heat, High spirits, Excitement, Ardor, Passion, Vigor, Fervor, Zeal, Highest Temperature.(Dineen, pp. 1194-95; O'Donaill, pp. 1221-22, Dwelly, p. 994) Teasaí, adj. (pron. jassy, chassy). Hot, high spirited, exciting, ardent, passionate, vehement, fiery. (see cites above) Jazz or Jass is the American English phonetic spelling and pronunciation of the Irish and Gaelic word Teas, pronounced jass or chass. Its first published sources in San Francisco are all Irish Americans, which should have given someone a clue. But then modern Anglo-American linguists treat Irish Americans and their culture and dialect as balbh (mute), despite the fact that through the 1920s, more than half of Irish emigrants to the US were Irish-Speakers, like my own Brooklyn Irish family. If it had been any other ethnic group, someone might have at least cracked an Irish dictionary. But the rule of scientific English etymology is that "there are no Irish words in the American or English languages, not even in slang." This is the Iron Linguistic Law of faux scientific English etymology. But back to the teasai (pron. jassy) tale... The San Francisco Irish American sports reporter Scoop Gleeson claimed he heard the word jazz from fellow Irish American newspaperman, Spike Slattery, while they were at the training camp of the local baseball team, the San Francisco Seals. Slattery said he had heard it in a crap game. Art Hickman, an unemployed local Irish American musician, was at the camp to make contacts among the newsmen, but took on the job of organizing some entertainment. Among these was a Rag (Raig, rush, on impulse, rapid, frivolous) Time band he created from other out-of-work musicians, including a couple of banjo players. It was this band that developed a new sound that was allegedly described for the first time in the baseball training camp as "jazz." This name went with Hickman to engagements in San Francisco and later to New York. (Online Etymological Notes, ADS-L notes) Raig, (also spelled Riodhg, dh = h) a sudden rush, a sudden impulse, a strong and sudden impulse to do something reckless; rapid time; frivolity; fig. “ drifting, enjoying life.” (Dineen, pp. 873-74, O'Donaill, Dwelly) Which is how you play Raig Time. New Orleans Irish American "Papa Jack" Laine, the founder of the early integrated Reliance Band in New Orleans, called his early version of ragtime music Ragged music. It was the music that the brass bands broke into when they left the cemetery after a funeral , letting loose with up-tempo, syncopated songs as they strolled through the streets with the Second Line, acting the fool, and cutting loose with the ragged hot syncopations of upbeat tunes. Ragged Raigíocht (ch = h) Strolling about, acting the tramp, straying. Like the march of the Second Line. But let's wander back like a bunch of happy tramps to the heat of teas (pron. jass, chass.) The words Jazz then seems to stroll and stray to Chicago, through the effort of Irish American bandleader, Bert Kelly. In 1916 Jazz appeared there in a different spelling in the name of the New Orleans Jass Band. Despite this band ’s name, according to this new research, the word still wasn’t known in New Orleans until 1917, as early jazz musicians attested. It is said to have arrived through the medium of a letter from Freddie Keppard in Chicago to the cornet player Joe Oliver. Oliver showed the letter to protege Louis Armstrong and the name soon became applied to the hot, passionate, high-spirited Teas (pron. jass or chass) that was the New Orleans style that became dominant, and which was later called hot jazz (teas, pron. jass, also means "heat, hottest, highest temperature") to distinguish it from the Art Hickman sort of cool jazz. The big question remains: where did those San Francisco Irish American crapshooters of 1913 get their word from? Of course, given the Iron Rule of Scientific English Etymology it can never ever be Irish or even Scots-Gaelic. The Scientific Iron Rule decrees that even the millions of Irish American children of Irish speakers do not retain even one word of Irish in their American slang and speech. Edward Gleason, the Irish American reporter, said that when they rolled the dice the crap shooters would call out “Come on, the old jazz”. (Teas, pron. Jass, high spirits, excitement) It looks as though they were using the word as an incantation, a call to the gambling "gods of the odds" to smile on them. Teas is jazz. The Iron Rule of Scientific English Etymology melts into a puddle of malarkey (moll labharchta) in the teas (heat, high spirits, fervor, excitement, high spirits, highest temperature) of the non-scientific, hot, hybrid-Irish slang and speech of Irish America. Jazz is made of Pizzazz January 27, 2005, a NY Times headline reads “Publishing Sees Pizazz Potential in New Awards.” Pizzazz or pizazz means “ a piece of heat, ardor, passion, excitement." Little sparkles and bits of jazz (teas, heat, excitement) It’s a small but very jazzy word. Píosa theas (pron. peesa has)is the hot Irish source of pizzazz and means “a piece of heat or excitement or passion.” It also melts the scientific etymological English Iron Rule: No Irish In English. When the Irish word Teas (pron. jass, or chass) is aspirated it shape shifts in the mouth to theas (pron. has or hass.) Píosa Theas, (pronounced Pees-hass, the "Th" is aspirated to "H" in speech. A piece of heat, excitement, ardor, passion, vigor, high spirits, fervor, zeal, and highest temperature. Its plural is piosai theas. I was not going to include pizzazz in these very rough notes, because English speakers are baffled by Irish aspiration. But pizzazz is such a jazzy (teasai, pron. Jassy or chassy, “high spirited”) word I went with my aspirations, instead. The Irish language after all adds Jazz, Pizzazz, and aspiration to the American Language. Many thanks to the mighty research of Gerald Cohen on ADS-L and other scholars. I look forward to any comments. I am using this material for my non Iron-Rule non-scientific book project on the tongue of the Irish poor of the English and American saol luim, the Gangs of NY, and the Jazz Age. . Peace and thanks to the members of ADS-L. Daniel Cassidy Professor of Irish Studies The Irish Studies Program, New College of California, San Francisco. Jan. 27, 2005 FOLK + From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Jan 27 21:15:11 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:15:11 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? In-Reply-To: <200501261831831.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Columbus and his crew, landing in the Bahamas on October 12th, 1492 were the first Europeans to encouter the Taino People. The Taíno spoke a form of Arawak and used the words: barbecue, "hammock", canoe, and tabaco which have been incorporated into the English and Spanish languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%EDnos best, karen ellis >FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented >until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out >of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. >So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for >rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read >this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of >history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had >nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that >occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" >died of lung cancer. > >-Wilson Gray <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 21:39:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:39:09 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050127141905.3476.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patti J. Kurtz wrote: > >Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of >"good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's >something my characters would say. Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >OED incredibly offers no exx. of "See you later!" in either a literal >or formulaic sense, but has formulaic "See you soon!" from 1891 and >"See you again!" from 1906. In 1950s N.Y.C., these were common, as >were the even more informal "See ya!" and "See ya 'round!" In my own >mind, at least, "See ya later!" always seemed to be literal, referring >to a particular time that day. That it was also used as a mere formula >didn't occur to me until I left N.Y.C. in the mid-'70s. I actually >remember being slightly taken aback by it. When I said it to my mother >over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? >You're in Tennessee." > >The point of all this is that you could place "See ya later!" any time >after 1890 without derailing history, though the reality might bemore >complicated and somebody could still carp at you. > >Meanwhile, we should all send Jesse some sorely needed cites. Earlier I had written: >Newspaperarchive dates it back to 1879: > >Marion Daily Star (Ohio), March 25, 1879, p. 3/2 "Call again -- very >busy -- see you later -- got to go right over the river!" said the >restaurant man as he got away out of sight. > >Looks fairly common in the 1880s-90s. In an email, Jonathan notes that the 1879 usage sounds "literal", not "formulaic". I would say that even if the phrase was "literal", in that the speaker was expressing an intention to see the interlocutor at some later point, it could still have been "formulaic" (an idiomatic shortening of "I will see you later"). Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: ----- 1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. ----- 1882 _Freeborn Co. Standard_ (Minn.) 7 Sep. 2/6 The bore (with a wink:) "I understand, old fellow. See you later." Departs without the remotest suspicion that he was the bore. ----- 1883 _Indiana Democrat_ (Pa.) 12 Jul. 4/6 Kate Field thus describes the American dude... Place a cigarette in its mouth: teach it a brief vocabulary of verbs and adjectives, commencing with 'immensely clever,' and 'see you later, you know,' and in my humble opinion you obtain a fair conception of the brains and capacity of the American dude. ----- 1887 _Olean Democrat_ (N.Y.) 10 Nov. 2/2 I have discovered that there are three kinds of English spoken in Europe, namely: British English (best), American English (picturesque), Continental English (more or less broken): at Waterloo [Belgium] I think I have found the nearest to American English of any I have heard. It is spoken by the girls who sell trinkets, relics, etc., on the field... A little party had gathered by this time, all bareheaded and rosy cheeked, and when I started away there was a chorus of "Ta, ta!" "Come again," "See you later" and other Americanisms, which, I learned afterward, the girls had picked up in various flirtations with spry young men from Uncle Sam's dominions. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 22:15:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:15:43 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:58:52 -0500, sagehen wrote: > Jonathan Lighter writes: >>"Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still >>occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. > >Dunno about FB or FW, but FWIW, "grunge" & "grungy" were both alive & >well and in constant use in the late 40s early 50s on the Reed College >campus. They were sort of all-purpose words: could mean "stuff," could >mean "crud," could be an expletive ("grunge!"). It was thought to have >been an import from the USNavy: there were a lot of GI Bill vets in school >then. >I rarely heard it after leaving Reed, except among old Reedies, though >"grungy" would turn up sporadically in fiction (esp. Brit), meaning dirty >or ratty. >The reappearance in the Pac NW music scene (when? late 80s, early 90s) >seemed like a spontaneous new birth. Just to clarify... the "grunge speak" hoax to which Jonathan and I referred had nothing to do with the term "grunge" itself. The link that I gave provides the whole story of how an overzealous New York Times reporter was bamboozled by Megan Jasper, a sales representative for Sub Pop Records, into printing an entirely spurious lexicon of "grunge" terminology (e.g., "swingin' on the flippety-flop" for "hanging out"). After the hoax was revealed, some ironic types started using Jasper's pseudo-slang with tongue in cheek. --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 22:16:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:16:19 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Alison, "grunge" & "grungey" (=crud, cruddy) were in wide use at NYU in 1970-74, but this is the first report of ca1950 currency. Have never seen either one in fiction written or even set before the '60s. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter writes: >"Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still >occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. > >JL ~~~~~~~~ Dunno about FB or FW, but FWIW, "grunge" & "grungy" were both alive & well and in constant use in the late 40s early 50s on the Reed College campus. They were sort of all-purpose words: could mean "stuff," could mean "crud," could be an expletive ("grunge!"). It was thought to have been an import from the USNavy: there were a lot of GI Bill vets in school then. I rarely heard it after leaving Reed, except among old Reedies, though "grungy" would turn up sporadically in fiction (esp. Brit), meaning dirty or ratty. The reappearance in the Pac NW music scene (when? late 80s, early 90s) seemed like a spontaneous new birth. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 22:37:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:37:43 -0800 Subject: Chillaxin' Message-ID: Derived from the name of Eric Chill-Ax, famous Viking. (Note to lurking undergrads: not true, not a real dewd.) JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 22:41:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:41:21 -0800 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: Well, yeah, Karen, but did they really roll the makin's into coffin nails? One wonders. JL Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Columbus and his crew, landing in the Bahamas on October 12th, 1492 were the first Europeans to encouter the Taino People. The Ta�no spoke a form of Arawak and used the words: barbecue, "hammock", canoe, and tabaco which have been incorporated into the English and Spanish languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%EDnos best, karen ellis >FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented >until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out >of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. >So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for >rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read >this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of >history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had >nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that >occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" >died of lung cancer. > >-Wilson Gray <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 23:01:41 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:01:41 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive without extraneous characters inserted? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Cassidy > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 2:42 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Daniel Cassidy > Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > The Pizzazz of Jazz: the Sanas (etymology) of Jazz (rough > notes to a > ragged tune) > > The recent research of Gerald Cohen and others has uncovered > that the word "Jazz" suddenly starts to appear in the San > Francisco Bulletin in March 1913 in a series of articles > about baseball by Irish American reporter Edward aEURoe > ScoopaEUR? Gleeson. > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 23:34:13 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:34:13 -0600 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: For the Parent Who Is a 'Grunge': A Glossary of New College Slang By ANGELA TAYLOR New York Times (1857-Current file); Dec 27, 1965; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) pg. 20 "A difficult date is an "octopus," a dull one a "grunge" and an untidy one a "dip" or a "spooke." " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 4:16 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Alison, "grunge" & "grungey" (=crud, cruddy) were in wide use > at NYU in 1970-74, but this is the first report of ca1950 > currency. Have never seen either one in fiction written or > even set before the '60s. > > JL > > From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Thu Jan 27 23:36:35 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:36:35 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050127225359.7687D23C5D5@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: There aren't any extraneous characters in Mr. Cassidy's post. He is using the correct AOL setting. The list serve software is not able to render the necessary diacriticals correctly. It happens when Barry writes 'nicoise' using the accurate spelling, too. Erik From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 28 00:03:02 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:03:02 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA73B@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > without > extraneous characters inserted? Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies are not Irish in origin? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From write at SCN.ORG Fri Jan 28 01:24:12 2005 From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:24:12 -0800 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050127130854.0347d820@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I ask my students to double space so I can write comments between the lines. I think four spaces between paragraphs looks strange (and wastes paper), so I ask for indenting. Jan On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between > paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from > students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. > > At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: > >I haven't indented a paragraph in years. > > > >For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and > >signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now > >I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied > >to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the > >indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no > >space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using > >the 14th edition. > > > >Peter Mc. > > > >--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart > > wrote: > > > >> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to > >>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they > >>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn > >>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail > >>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. > > > > > > > >***************************************************************** > >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon > >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 02:14:01 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:14:01 -0500 Subject: "Mother made me a homosexual" (1967) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A graffito that I saw on the wall of the mens' room of the Jellybean Lounge at Brown University: "God didn't create the world in six days. Instead, He fucked off for five days, then pulled an all-nighter." I saw this in 1972, but who knows when it was written. Just heard someone say, "He tells it how it is." I wonder when "how" began to replace "like." (This is just a random thought, y'all. No need to go to the trouble of researching the answer for me, though I do appreciate the kindness.) -Wilson On Jan 27, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Mother made me a homosexual" (1967) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > This is in the same "Jesus Saves, Moses Invests" graffiti article. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Graffiti To Print > By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Feb 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) > Second page: > Underneath the confession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL, someone > scribbled: IF I GET HER THE WOOL, WILL SHE MAKE ME ONE, TOO? > > > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Mansfield News Friday, March 11, 1977 Mansfield, Ohio > ...soggy And hArd to light. MOTHER MADE ME A homosexuAl. I send her > the wool.....dirty And got the reply, New York MADE ME dirty- When > soMEbody suggested, is no.. > > Daily Gleaner Wednesday, March 01, 1967 Kingston, Kingston > ...on A wAll 'the con fession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL- Anc > underneAth.....The pArticu1 r incident which MADE ME record the > detAils took plAce on.. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 02:42:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:42:46 EST Subject: "Step on a crack, break your mother's back" (1917) Message-ID: I can't find a date for this saying anywhere. I don't know if Fred Shapiro has or needs "crack," but here's some. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _CHILD INTERVIEW REVEALS GLOOM IN THIS HOME; Trimly Frocked Miss Casually Tells of Struggle and "Nonsupport." _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=381027691&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS= 1106876875&clientId=65882) AUDRIE ALSPAUGH CHASE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 13, 1917. p. 5 (1 page) : ... You must remember yourselves how serious a business that was when once you hopped--it was usually a board sidewalk in your hopping days, was it not?--down the walk to the legend, "Step on a crack, break your mother's back," endeavoring with great filial devotion to avoid the necessity for any such maternal outrage. ... ... _WALKING LORE_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=363334472&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106877062&clientId= 65882) DORIS BLAKE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 23, 1921. p. F2 (1 page) ... "STEP on a crack, you break your mother's back," is a ridiculous superstition which almost every youngster has put faith in at one time or another by hopping over the crack in the sidewalk. Didn't you do it? ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Nebraska State Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2mAEsrI2zXwGEGTxk5ZDlUdnBe+4gPju0EIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 25, 1897 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+step+on+a+crack+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+step+on+a+crack+AND) ...dozens of persONs who believe thAt to STEP ON A crAck Is A sign thAt they will.....And is trying to Avoid STEPpingON A crAck between tho flAgstONes forming the.. Pg. 4, col. 7: ... The peculiar manner in which a well dressed gentleman walked down Chestnut street a few evenings ago attracted attention. Some of his steps were of ordinary length, while others were very short, and others still very long. A stalwart policeman explained the peculiarity. "That man," said he, "is a crack-stepper--that is, he is superstitious and is trying to avoid stepping on a crack between the flagstones forming the sidewalk. There are dozens of persons who believe that to step on a crack is a sign that they will meet with bad luck. They soon get into the habit of regulating their steps so as to avoid the cracks, and they are unconscious of the peculiarity of their movements. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 03:04:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:04:20 EST Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes: ... Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: ----- 1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. ... ... ... ... Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. ... ... (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) ..., Stephens, Ann S. (Ann Sophia), (1810-1886): Ruby Gray's Strategy Stephens 1 match in 1 of 399 pages ... _CHAPTER XIV._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div1;q1=see%20you %20later;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl 1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-2372;node =Wright2-2372:17) * was able; but he pleaded great haste to be gone, and said I might tell you that he would be sure to see you later in the evening at your own house." / "Did he? Did he promise that?" / "Yes, ... ... Fleming, May Agnes, (1840-1880): A Mad Marriage Flemin 2 matches in 2 of 455 pages ... _PART THIRD._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div1;q1=see%20you% 20later;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl1 =1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0913;node= Wright2-0913:4) _CHAPTER XII._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div2;q1=see%20you %20later;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl 1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0913;node =Wright2-0913:4.12) * You have heard of me—I am the Prince Di Venturini. For you, madame," with a low bow, "I shall see you later." / Before either could speak he turned, made his way through the throng, and qui _CHAPTER XIV._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div2;q1=see%20you %20later;cite1restrict =title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0913;node =Wright2-0913:4.14) * "Nothing, madame; but that he would see you later at the reception." / So madame knew he was coming, and was prepared for all chanc * ... ... ... ... We should not forget "C U L8er" in internet jargon. It's an early one. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _The Jargon File v2.3.1 03 JAN 1991, part 9 of 11_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/browse_frm/thread/d2c0424c82b24703/9c7fe7b32 c5c5591?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq =&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_ mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_don eTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#9c7fe7b32c5c5591) ... Are you OK? X THX Thanks (mutant of TNX) X CU l8er See you later (mutant of CU l8tr) XX See also , , . X X adj. ... _alt.folklore.computers_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers) - Jan 3 1991, 8:44 pm by Eric S. Raymond - 1 message - 1 author ... _Bif ?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc/browse_frm/thread/15bcede7b1739488/2d2b476d34118eb3?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d &hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr= &as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_ma xy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#2d2b476d34118eb3) ... JEE I TINK I HEER HIM CUMMIN` HOME SO I MUST FINIS DIS LETTER!!! BY!!! SEE U L8ER ALLIG8ER!!! DID U GET IT?? SEE U LATER ALIGEITER!!! K00L HA!!! K0WABUNGA!!!! ... _news.misc_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc) - Oct 22 1990, 5:02 pm by BIFF JOHNSON - 7 messages - 5 authors ... _Testing chumly_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test/browse_frm/thread/7500668f75f26bd8/da34fcceeebee21c?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&n um=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=& as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27 &as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#da34fcceeebee21 c) Does is a toest, wat'n sonst ? No Reply, please c ya l8er, bye _sub.test_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test) - Aug 11 1990, 8:45 am by Walter Mildenberger - 1 message - 1 author ... _XmFileSelectionBox is buggy_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif/browse_frm/thread/7c37ddb3459b7f16/796ce252e097ce27?q=l8er&_done=/g roups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugro up=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_min y=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&& d#796ce252e097ce27) ... experience with this widget (I never used it before), but it is clear to me that this part of the Motif code has *never* been tested by the dev team :-( l8er ... _comp.windows.x.motif_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif) - Aug 2 1990, 8:48 am by Riccardo Pizzi - 3 messages - 3 authors ... _Anyone heard Of MORIA_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games/browse_frm/thread/eb08ca234d4ec767/c516f735de6825e9?q=l8er&_done=/groups? as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as _usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981 &as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#c516 f735de6825e9) ... extraordinarily well-ported game which DOES support the Amiga features instead of trying to emulate Unix's weak text version. L8er Paul _comp.sys.amiga.games_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games) - Jun 10 1990, 1:45 pm by Paul Douglas Stafford - 6 messages - 5 authors ... _Uruguay a cynic team? (was Re: Marlboro Cup results wanted)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/17232d0d25eb37c/b5b73 c3943 e054fe?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b &as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&& _doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b5b73c3943e054fe) ... PS Walter, what happened to Morena (ex-Penarol)? Are you a Nacional or a Penarol fan? Talk to you l8er... _rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) - Feb 13 1990, 11:00 pm by Ronald F Gruia - 15 messages - 9 authors ... _][e enhancement_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple/browse_frm/thread/6a013b668aa1d84c/1468459ff0a913f4?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&nu m=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&a s_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27& as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#1468459ff0a913f4 ) ... buffer, but of course you can send the next cmd to the modem while the prgm is still putting out to screen, which causes the buffer to overflow sooner or l8er ... _comp.sys.apple_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple) - Jun 25 1988, 6:23 am by Paul Nakada - 8 messages - 7 authors From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 03:13:44 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:13:44 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > > without > > extraneous characters inserted? > > Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies > are not Irish in origin? Hahahahaha! BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has at least been his recent pattern. Jesse Sheidlower From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:14:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:14:28 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: These two are not formulaic enough for me. So many Civil War diaries have been published that you'd think that such a simple formula would have appeared inthem many times, if it was current. As a formula. "So long!" was the formula Whitman favored in 1855. Maybe they didn't need another one till a generation later. Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something about "Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's three generations of Americans." "Generations" has been used loosely for a long time, but this must be the briefest specific interpretation yet since *all* Americans are included. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- =20 Ben Zimmer writes: ... Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: ----- 1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. ... ... ... ... Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I=20 wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. ... ... (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) ..., Stephens, Ann S. (Ann Sophia), (1810-1886): Ruby Gray's Strategy Stephens 1= =20 match in 1 of 399 pages ... _CHAPTER XIV._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv1;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u %20later;cite1restrict=3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;f= irstpubl 1=3D1850;firstpubl2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWrigh= t2-2372;node =3DWright2-2372:17) =20 * was able; but he pleaded great haste to be gone, and said I might=20 tell you that he would be sure to see you later in the evening at your own=20 house." / "Did he? Did he promise that?" / "Yes, =20 ... ... Fleming, May Agnes, (1840-1880): A Mad Marriage Flemin 2 matches in 2 of 45= 5=20 pages ... _PART THIRD._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv1;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u% 20later;cite1restrict=3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;fi= rstpubl1 =3D1850;firstpubl2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWright= 2-0913;node=3D Wright2-0913:4) =20 _CHAPTER XII._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv2;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u %20later;cite1restrict=3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;f= irstpubl 1=3D1850;firstpubl2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWrigh= t2-0913;node =3DWright2-0913:4.12) =20 * You have heard of me=E2=80=94I am the Prince Di Venturini. For you,=20= madame,"=20 with a low bow, "I shall see you later." / Before either could speak he=20 turned, made his way through the throng, and qui=20 _CHAPTER XIV._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv2;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u %20later;cite1restrict =3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;firstpubl1=3D1850;first= publ2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWright2-0913;node =3DWright2-0913:4.14) =20 * "Nothing, madame; but that he would see you later at the reception.= "=20 / So madame knew he was coming, and was prepared for all chanc =20 * ... ... ... ... We should not forget "C U L8er" in internet jargon. It's an early one. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _The Jargon File v2.3.1 03 JAN 1991, part 9 of 11_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/browse_frm/threa= d/d2c0424c82b24703/9c7fe7b32 c5c5591?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&i= e=3DUTF-8&as_epq =3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as_usubject=3D&as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qd= r=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_ mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&= safe=3Doff&&_don eTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#9c7fe7b32c5c5591) =20 ... Are you OK? X THX Thanks (mutant of TNX) X CU l8er See you later =20 (mutant of CU l8tr) XX See also , , . X X adj. ... =20 _alt.folklore.computers_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers) - Jan 3 1991,=20= 8:44 pm by Eric S. Raymond - 1 message - 1 author=20 ... _Bif ?_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc/browse_frm/thread/15bcede7b17= 39488/2d2b476d34118eb3?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scorin= g=3Dd &hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as_usubject=3D&= as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D &as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&a= s_maxm=3D1&as_ma xy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#2d2b476d34118eb3) =20 ... JEE I TINK I HEER HIM CUMMIN` HOME SO I MUST FINIS DIS LETTER!!! BY!!!=20 SEE U L8ER ALLIG8ER!!! DID U GET IT?? SEE U LATER ALIGEITER!!! K00L HA!!! K0WABUNGA!!!= !=20 ... =20 _news.misc_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc) - Oct 22 1990,= =20 5:02 pm by BIFF JOHNSON - 7 messages - 5 authors ...=20 _Testing chumly_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test/browse_frm/thread/7500668f= 75f26bd8/da34fcceeebee21c?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&n um=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugrou= p=3D&as_usubject=3D& as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny= =3D1981&as_maxd=3D27 &as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#da34f= cceeebee21 c) =20 Does is a toest, wat'n sonst ? No Reply, please c ya l8er, bye =20 _sub.test_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test) - Aug 11=20 1990, 8:45 am by Walter Mildenberger - 1 message - 1 author ... _XmFileSelectionBox is buggy_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif/browse_frm/thread/= 7c37ddb3459b7f16/796ce252e097ce27?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/g roups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq= =3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugro up=3D&as_usubject=3D&as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&= as_minm=3D1&as_min y=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBa= ck+to+Search&& d#796ce252e097ce27) =20 ... experience with this widget (I never used it before), but it is clear t= o=20 me that this part of the Motif code has *never* been tested by the dev team :-( l8e= r=20 ... =20 _comp.windows.x.motif_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif) - Aug 2 1990, 8:= 48 am by Riccardo Pizzi - 3 messages - 3 authors ... _Anyone heard Of MORIA_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games/browse_frm/thread/= eb08ca234d4ec767/c516f735de6825e9?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups? as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_e= q=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as _usubject=3D&as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm= =3D1&as_miny=3D1981 &as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Se= arch&&d#c516 f735de6825e9) =20 ... extraordinarily well-ported game which DOES support the Amiga features=20 instead of trying to emulate Unix's weak text version. L8er Paul =20 _comp.sys.amiga.games_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games) - Jun 10 1990, 1= :45 pm by Paul Douglas Stafford - 6 messages - 5=20 authors ... _Uruguay a cynic team? (was Re: Marlboro Cup results wanted)_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/1723= 2d0d25eb37c/b5b73 c3943 e054fe?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie= =3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as_usubject=3D&as_uauthors= =3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db &as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1= 992&safe=3Doff&& _doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#b5b73c3943e054fe) =20 ... PS Walter, what happened to Morena (ex-Penarol)? Are you a Nacional or a Penarol fan? Talk to you l8er... =20 _rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) -= =20 Feb 13 1990, 11:00 pm by Ronald F Gruia - 15 messages - 9 authors ... _][e enhancement_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple/browse_frm/thread/6a013b= 668aa1d84c/1468459ff0a913f4?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&nu m=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup= =3D&as_usubject=3D&a s_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny= =3D1981&as_maxd=3D27& as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#146845= 9ff0a913f4 ) =20 ... buffer, but of course you can send the next cmd to the modem while the=20 prgm is still putting out to screen, which causes the buffer to overflow sooner or l8er =20 ... =20 _comp.sys.apple_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple) - Ju= n=20 25 1988, 6:23 am by Paul Nakada - 8 messages - 7 authors =20 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 28 03:15:05 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:15:05 -0600 Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies Message-ID: FWIW, Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologizing no doubt contains many "false positives." But I'll say this for his efforts: If there are in fact any words currently regarded as being of unknown origin but in fact deriving from Irish, Cassidy will likely find them. At that point I'll very willingly overlook all the suggestions which didn't pan out and rejoice at the few which did. "Kibosh" may be one such item (let's wait and see), and perhaps his suggestion on the card game faro deserves further consideration too. Gerald Cohen From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 03:15:14 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:15:14 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) In-Reply-To: <200501272204.3741f9abbd62@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 >Ben Zimmer writes: >... >Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to >be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: > >----- >1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," >said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See >you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. >... >... >... >... >Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I=20 >wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. >... >... > > Just wanted to thank everyone for the help on this one. My novel's set in 1889, so it looks like I'm okay using this phrase. You've all been a great help! Patti Kurtz Minot State University Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:19:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:19:41 -0800 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Jesse, I assume you're checking your Irish dictionary and your team of experts if indicated. Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point. If it is, then shame on me. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > > without > > extraneous characters inserted? > > Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies > are not Irish in origin? Hahahahaha! BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has at least been his recent pattern. Jesse Sheidlower __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 03:20:51 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:20:51 -0600 Subject: Candy stripers Message-ID: Okay, a bit off topic, but does anyone know if they even still use the term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the east)? If not, what do they call them? Thanks again! Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:21:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:21:06 -0800 Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies Message-ID: But he hasn't yet responded to my request to look into "palooka." JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologizing no doubt contains many "false positives." But I'll say this for his efforts: If there are in fact any words currently regarded as being of unknown origin but in fact deriving from Irish, Cassidy will likely find them. At that point I'll very willingly overlook all the suggestions which didn't pan out and rejoice at the few which did. "Kibosh" may be one such item (let's wait and see), and perhaps his suggestion on the card game faro deserves further consideration too. Gerald Cohen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:35:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:35:02 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw you!" Pithy. Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion suddenly became plausible. To me. The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this interesting suggestion." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 28 04:10:49 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:10:49 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: Jonathan L writes: >Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something about >"Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's three generations >of Americans." "Generations" has been used loosely for a long time, but >this must be the briefest specific interpretation yet since *all* >Americans are included.< ~~~~~~~ All the talk about Carson has me somewhat bemused. It is taken for granted that Everyone knows Johnny Carson. I don't. I "know" -- as a bit of rote -- that he was the host of a tv program (Late Night?) for many years. I wouldn't recognize his picture if I saw it. We never had a tv until about 15 years ago, and I do know that there are lots of real, live, quite normal, ordinary people who live without tv. Moreover, it is even possible to have a tv and not watch some particular program. There are known to be some Canadians, even, who don't watch Hockey Night in Canada (that is, in years when the season isn't cancelled)! Strange, but true. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 04:45:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:45:46 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: You know, I never watched his 11:15 p.m.-to-whenever show either. I felt obligated to tune in for the incredibly hyped and touted finale but quit early because it didn't seem funny or interesting or much of anything. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan L writes: >Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something about >"Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's three generations >of Americans." "Generations" has been used loosely for a long time, but >this must be the briefest specific interpretation yet since *all* >Americans are included.< ~~~~~~~ All the talk about Carson has me somewhat bemused. It is taken for granted that Everyone knows Johnny Carson. I don't. I "know" -- as a bit of rote -- that he was the host of a tv program (Late Night?) for many years. I wouldn't recognize his picture if I saw it. We never had a tv until about 15 years ago, and I do know that there are lots of real, live, quite normal, ordinary people who live without tv. Moreover, it is even possible to have a tv and not watch some particular program. There are known to be some Canadians, even, who don't watch Hockey Night in Canada (that is, in years when the season isn't cancelled)! Strange, but true. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 05:13:53 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:13:53 EST Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) Message-ID: I've been looking at this book of children's rhymes, mostly jump-rope rhymes. It's a nice collection. Fred Shapiro must include some of these. ... ... RIMBLES: A BOOK OF CHILDREN'S CLASSIC GAMES, RHYMES, SONGS AND SAYINGS by Patricia Evans Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1961 (copyright 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961) ... ... Pg. 31: Acka-backa, soda cracker, Does your father chew tobacco? Yes. No. Maybe So. Ye. No, etc. ... Pg. 33: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the ladies How to dance. First the heel And then the toe Left foot forward Out you go. ... Pg. 37: I love coffee I love tea I love the boys And the boys love me. ... Pg. 37: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the girls The hula-hula dance. First on the heel, Then on the toe, Round and round and round you go. Salute to the Captain Bow to the Queen And turn your back On the dirty submarine. ... Pg. 131: I'm rubber and you're glue. it bounces off me and it sticks on you. ... Pg. 132: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire, Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. ... Pg. 135: No more pencils, no more books, No more teachers' dirty looks. ... Pg. 139: Look up. Look down. Your pants is falling down. ... Pg. 142: Goof morning to you, You belong in the zoo. You look like a monkey And act like one too. ... Pg. 147: Scairdy cat, scairdy cat, Don't know what you're looking at. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE & PROQUEST) ... ... _Jump-Rope Jingles; In the spring a little girl's fancy turns to an old sidewalk sport. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=91094973&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106883417&clientId=6588 2) By KATHLEEN F. McDOWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 14, 1946. p. 109 (1 page) ... Charlie Chaplin went to France To teach the ladies how to dance. Heel and toe and away we go. Heel and toe and away we go. Bow to the captain. Kneel to the Queen. And give a salute to the big Marine. ... ... _Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2g8MtMfQZCKyMc1c9B3RWiMnyVnYmGViGw==) Wednesday, April 15, 1925 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) ...the skIppIng. Her verse LOVE COFFEE, I LOVE TEA I LOVE the boys, and the boys.. Pg. 6, col. 3: THOSE "Flaming Youth" tendencies being manifest in the present generation will be nothing compared to the generation that follows, if early indications bear any weight. Three small girls at Gastman school were jumping rope--a long rope, and the girl at one end was chanting cadence for the one in the middle who was doing the skipping. Her verse was: "I love coffee, I love tea, I love the boys, and the boys love me How many boys are stuck on me? One, two, three, four, five, six--" The little miss whose "turn" it was proved to have sixteen ardent suitors. ... ... _Jackie Crams on Knowledge of Holy Land_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=361464752&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=H NP&TS=1106888179&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 8, 1924. p. 39 (1 page) ... Soon the boys and girls of Jackie Coogan's age will be singing the annual vacation anthem--"No more history, no more books, no more teachers' sassy looks." ... ... _ Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2l3oysEnhf/RIQ7ZpP8KnKd+C/D8AbE0ug==) Thursday, June 05, 1924 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+no+more+books+and+no+more+teachers+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+no+more+books+and+no+more+teach ers+AND) ...MORE pencils; NO MORE BOOKS; NO MORE TEACHERS' saucy is theory heard.....to decide the question in Saginaw AND MORE time will be needed for MORE.. Pg. 16, col. 3: "No more pencils; no more books; no more teachers' saucy looks," is the cry heard today from the school children. Why? Because the last day of school, that day so welcome to boys and girls from six to eighteen, has arrived. ... ... _Other 9 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=505192962&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106888559&c lientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 20, 1953. p. 16 (1 page) ... Vivian Volk's "modern" jump-rope song [Aug. 12] was in daily use at Parkside school [69th st. and East End av.] back in the early 1920s. Another variation was /// my mother, your mother, Loved across the way; Fifteen and fourteen East Broadway. Every night they had a fight, And this is what they'd day: Acka-backa soda cracka, acka-backa boo! Acka-backa soda cracka, out goes you! Gloria C. Marsteller From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 05:53:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's correspondent's point. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. -Wilson Gray On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" > comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that > sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested > Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar > synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an > expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned > and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian > especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply > meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw > you!" Pithy. > > Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic > immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion > suddenly became plausible. To me. > > The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this > interesting suggestion." > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 06:25:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:25:13 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Jesse, I assume you're checking your Irish dictionary and your team of > experts if indicated. > Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point. > > If it is, then shame on me. > > JL "Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point." I'm standing with you foursquare on this one. I've always felt that the decades-long attempt to connect the colored American with the devil's music is totally misplaced. Clearly, Irish jigs, reels, and such like are the true source of such cacophony. A more recent example is the recording of the song "Colours" by the Irish singer Donovan. Notice the oddly-rhythmic drumming that is heard as part of the background music, not to mention the singer's own particular method of playing the guitar. It's a revelation! And then there's the fact that, for an Irish-American former colleague of mine, one David Beach ("Beach" doesn't strike me as being an Irish name, but, since I found out that the "obviously" Teutonic name, "Hindelang," is of Irish provenance, I've learned to reserve judgment on such points), the word "jazz" was a living, active part of his normal vocabulary for that for which others would substitute "fuck." -Wilson Gray > > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> >>> Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive >>> without >>> extraneous characters inserted? >> >> Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some >> etymologies >> are not Irish in origin? > > Hahahahaha! > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has > at least been his recent pattern. > > Jesse Sheidlower > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 28 04:43:43 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:43:43 -0500 Subject: Candy stripers In-Reply-To: <41F9AF93.3060702@netscape.net> Message-ID: >... does anyone know if they even still use the >term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the >east)? I've heard it in the last decade. Not often, though. >If not, what do they call them? 'Volunteers', in my limited experience. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 06:36:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:36:13 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > >Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I >wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. [...] >* was able; but he pleaded great haste to be gone, and said I might >tell you that he would be sure to see you later in the evening at your >own house." / "Did he? Did he promise that?" / "Yes, [...] >* You have heard of me -- I am the Prince Di Venturini. For you, >madame," with a low bow, "I shall see you later." / Before either >could speak he turned, made his way through the throng, and qui [...] >* "Nothing, madame; but that he would see you later at the reception. Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >These two are not formulaic enough for me. So many Civil War diaries have >been published that you'd think that such a simple formula would have >appeared inthem many times, if it was current. As a formula. I checked Alexander Street's "Civil War: Letters and Diaries" database, and the only example of the collocation "see you later" was in a letter after the war, in 1869-- also lacking formulaicity like Barry's examples: Letter from John Milton Hay to Edmund Clarence Stedman February 11, 1869 I hope to see you later in the Spring. "See you soon" has numerous attestations in the CWLD database but only in phrases like "hoping to see you soon". But I think the standalone phrase "see you soon" may have become idiomatic some time after "see you later"-- I don't find anything on N-archive predating OED2's 1891 cite. (And then there's "see you real soon", c. 1955. Proquest and N-archive actually show that catchphrase appearing in ads for Safeway in 1954, a year before "The Mickey Mouse Club" premiered.) --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 28 04:32:07 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:32:07 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <20050128033503.58804.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is "khuy", in the expression "khuy voyne" ("f*ck war" or so) on the famous T-shirts of the "Russian teen faux-lesbian" singing duo Tatu. Supposedly these T-shirts appeared on US TV, through oversight and/or ignorance of Russian. http://taty-tatu.org/breve.php3?id_breve=6 -- Doug Wilson From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 07:48:18 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:48:18 EST Subject: The Sanas and Teas (heat) of Fizz, Fizzle, and Sizzle Message-ID: More notes on the Irish and Gaelic word Teas (pron. jass or chass) meaning Heat. . The Sanas of Fizz, Fizzle, and Sizzle. When something fizzes or fizzles it loses its Teas (pron. jass or chass) or Heat, Highest Temperature, Excitement, and High Spirit. The Oxford Dictionary ’s Fizz is imitative and its fizzle is literally a silent fart. Fizz, fiz, make a hissing sound, as of effervescence; 17th century; imitative, compare fizzle. Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, p. 359. Fizzle, break wind silently 16th C.; (orig. from US) come to a lame conclusion, 18th C.; from fizz (but this is recorded later) + LE, cf. fist. (ODEE, p. 359) The Barnhart Etymological Dictionary also opts for the fizz of the silent fart, but with a little Middle English imitation. Fizz v. 1655, move with a hiss or a sputter; imitative of the sound, and perhaps related to fizzle. –n. 1812, a hissing or sputtering sound, from the verb. Barnhart, p. 386. Barnhart's fizzle is an old fart and an ancient fist. Fizzle v. About 1532, to break wind without noise, probably an alteration of obsolete fist (Middle Eng., break wind, 1440) + le, frequentative suffix. The meaning of make a hissing sound or sputtering is first recorded in 1859...in American English.... Barnhart, p. 386. The Irish and Gaelic Sanas of Fizz, Fizzle and Sizzle Like a verbal star, fizz and fizzle are perpetually losing their Teas (pron. chass or jass), or heat, excitement, ardor, and high spirit. Fizz Fé theas, fa theas ( pron. fay has; the aspirated T is silent) Less than highest heat, warmth, passion, ardor, and excitement Fé, Fá, faoi : less than, under (in all senses), low. Teas (aspirated to Theas, pron. has). heat, hotness, warmth, degree of hotness, high temperature, passion, excitement, ardor, fever. Hottest, highest stage. The Gaelic Phrase Fizzle Fizzes Forever.. Fizzle Fé theas uile (fay has ila) Less than all heat, vigor, passion, ardor, or excitement. Fé, Fá, faoi : less than, under (in all senses), low Teas, aspirated to Theas, still means heat, hotness, warmth, degree of hotness, high temperature, passion, excitement, ardor, high spirits. Hottest, highest stage. Uile: all, wholly. Fizzles’s hot jazzy cousin is Sizzle. With sizzle the Barnhart again opts for "imitative." But of course it is a pure English imitation. Sizzle...to make a hissing sound as fat does when frying. 1603, to burn or scorch so as to produce a hissing sound; perhaps a frequentative verb form of Middle English sissen make a hissing sound, buzz (before 1300), of imitative origin. The sense of making a hissing sound when frying is first recorded. in English before 1825. –n. 1823, in Edward Moor’s Suffolk Words and Phrases; from the verb. Barnhart p. 1913 The Irish and Gaelic Sizzle holds at its core the perpetual heat, passion, excitement, and ardor of Teas (jazz or chass.) Sizzle Sa theas uile (pron. sa has ila ; T is aspirated) In a state of all heat, highest temperature, excitement, passion, ardor. Sa: In ( a state or condition of) Theas (pron. has): heat, vigor, passion, ardor, or excitement. . Uile: all, whole. The Sizzle of Teas (pron. chass, jass) holds the spirit of jazz (teas, heat) and gives off heat even when it fizzles. On the other hand when you easy fry chicken in New Orleans you don't sizzle it, you fricasee (friocadh samh) the boid (bird.) Friocadh (pron fricah): frying Sa/mh (pron saah), easy. Friocadh sa/mh (pron. Fricah saah) Easy frying. . Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of California San Francisco 1.28.05 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 08:03:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:52 EST Subject: "Not just happen, but made to happen" (FDR?) Message-ID: >From Google Answers. FDR pre-WWI sounds bogus. ... ... ... (GOOGLE ANSWERS) ... _http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=464460_ (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=464460) ... Subject: Quotation Category: _Reference, Education and News _ (http://answers.google.com/answers/browse?catid=1500) Asked by: pakorrwk-ga List Price: $2.50 Posted: 27 Jan 2005 14:28 PST Expires: 26 Feb 2005 14:28 PST Question ID: 464460 Looking for the original author of the quotation "Things do not merely happen, they are made to happen." It has been attributed to John F. Kennedy but I wrote it down in my diary in the early 1940s so I think it was either Thoreau or Franklin Roosevelt. Thank you for your help. ... ... Subject: Re: Quotation From: _pinkfreud-ga_ (http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785) on 27 Jan 2005 14:54 PST Here a similar quote is attributed to Franklin Delano Roosevelt: "To those who believe that a chaotic world is a more plausible explanation for wierd [sic] happenings, I can only point to the following remark by F.D.R. before the first world war: 'Things in politics do not just happen; they are made to happen...I will be Secretary of the Navy, governor of New York, and president, in that order'. And he was." _http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.misc/msg/39533ca88e86b980? dmode=source_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.misc/msg/39533ca88e86b980?dmode=source) ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _de Returns as a Prodigal. Virtues in a Rose Pink Romantic Comedy. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=408221831&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PR OD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106898631&clientId=65882) Burns Mantle. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 25, 1908. p. H1 (1 page) ... It has the common fault of similar plays of never suggesting reality in its emotions or its scenes. Things happen because they are made to happen. ... ... _Behind The Line With DICK HYLAND_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=409112721&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS= 1106898817&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 25, 1940. p. 10 (1 page) ... In short, on a football field there is no such thing as coincidence, happy or otherwise. Things do not "just happen," they are MADE to happen, one team does a job of patsying the other gents. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2vzHp//zVGGJ+IXTt4mYTlc3QLE6cFF6Yw==) Tuesday, February 04, 1913 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+do+not+just+happen+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+do+not+just+happen+AND) ...Blue Tag Price. V Things DO NOT "JUST HAPPEN But are the result of the.....confined to his bed at his farm-house JUST south of the city, on the DOty.. ... _Coshocton Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Rvj45z7SpqiKID/6NLMW2onVueaCXTVdWG87BOSLSVbHiBf35r4+zA==) Monday, December 15, 1919 _Coshocton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:coshocton+do+not+just+happen+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+do+not+just+happen+AND) ...Things Are Brought About. They DO NOT JUST HAPPEN. This Applies To Accumu.....comment from the depositors that it is JUST like finding that much JUST since.. From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 10:06:29 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:06:29 EST Subject: Strumpet, hussy not such bad names Message-ID: Strumpet, hussy not such bad names SEATTLE (UPI) -- A Washington state legislator wants a 1905 law forbidding calling a woman a strumpet or hussy removed from state law, the New York Times said Wednesday. Under the state's "Slander of a Woman" law from 1909, it is a misdemeanor to slander any female older than 12 -- other than prostitutes -- by uttering "any false or defamatory words or language which shall injure or impair the reputation of any such female for virtue or chastity or which shall expose her to hatred, contempt or ridicule." The statute was upheld by the State Supreme Court in 1914, which researchers say was the last time the law was before the courts. But Democratic state Sen. Jeanne Kohl-Welles believes it's time to banish the old statute, and has filed a bill to repeal it. Kohl-Welles admits there are more pressing priorities facing a state with a $1.8 billion deficit, but said the old law is nonetheless a vestige of sexism and an unconstitutional affront to free speech. >From another list. Jerry E. Kane Los Angeles, CA From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 10:55:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:55:24 -0500 Subject: rocksteady (1967), reggae (1968) Message-ID: Jamaica's _Daily Gleaner_ is obviously a good source for early cites of "rocksteady" and "reggae" (though Newspaperarchive lacks the editions from the early '60s necessary to antedate "ska")... * rocksteady, n. (OED2 1969) 1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 4 Mar. 6/7 (advt.) Tonite it's "rock steady" night at the Ocean View Club ... Dance to the soul "rock steady" beat of the Virtues. 1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 18 Jun. 8/5 This column is no place to debate who "originated" the rock steady rhythm and probably, like many musical phenomena, it actually evolved out of several different circumstances. However, Hopeton Lewis personally wrote and sang several of the most popular of the rock steady hits. * rocksteady, v. (not in OED) 1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 9 Aug. 2/6 The majority of people therefore just sipped beer and watched the few who had elbow room enough to rock-steady. * reggae, n. (OED2 has Toots & the Maytal's 1968 song title "Do the Reggay"; 1969 for "reggae" spelling) 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 7 Sep. 7/5 (advt.) Come do this brand new dance - the reggae. 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 27 Sep. 7/1 (advt.) Tonight! It's reggae time when the exciting Wildcats present a pre-opening fun-filled dance at The Road House. 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 25 Oct. 24/3 The cleared area for dancing was easily filled with the more elderly couples who danced the Calypso their way and even had a go at the Ska. One gentleman was brave enough to attempt the Reggae-reggae. 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 22 Nov. 10/3 Commenting on the rendition of excerpts from Bizet's "Carmen" by the Alpha girls, Mr. Wynter, in a light vein, said that if there were any composers of "The Reggae" present then he would be sure that "Carmen" would soon be put to the Reggae beat. * reggae, v. (not in OED) 1969 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 8 Jun. 8/6 All like we, Miss, we have to reggae for we poor. 1970 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 2 Jan. 9 (caption) Here guests reggaed and moonwalked to the music of the Caribs. 1970 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 24 Jul. 46/6 Sharon Emanuel drew heavy applause and laughter from the audience for reggaeing her way through her piece. (The penultimate cite also beats Michael Jackson's "moonwalk" by about 13 years.) --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 11:14:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:14:24 -0500 Subject: rocksteady (1967), reggae (1968) Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:55:24 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >* rocksteady, n. (OED2 1969) > >1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 4 Mar. 6/7 (advt.) Tonite it's >"rock steady" night at the Ocean View Club ... Dance to the soul "rock >steady" beat of the Virtues. > >1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 18 Jun. 8/5 This column is no >place to debate who "originated" the rock steady rhythm and probably, like >many musical phenomena, it actually evolved out of several different >circumstances. However, Hopeton Lewis personally wrote and sang several of >the most popular of the rock steady hits. And Leonard Feather wrote about it early on in the LA Times: 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 2 Jul. (Calendar) 6/3 Organized 10 years ago, the unit [sc. Byron Lee's Dragonaires] ... is currently dedicated to the propagation of a new gimmick, something called Rock Steady. Like most short-lived crazes of this kind, the term refers both to a musical beat (part Latin, part R&B) and a dance that matches it. --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 28 11:21:54 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:21:54 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050127232558.02f7d2f0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: There is also the surprise or amazement "Hooooeee" in AmerEng (Hooooeeee; look at the size of that sumbitch.')). It made an old country song ('Hoooeeeee, it was the Tennessee Ghost,' sung by Tennessee Enie Ford?) very popular in Poland. Chuj (as it is spelled in Polish) is a very good East-West dialect test. The /ch/ of Eastern Polish preserves a [x] pronunciation, and is distinct from /h/, but the contrast is lost in Western Polish, and one can even see badly spelled graffiti - "huj" in public places alongside the more elegantly spelled "chuj." In the East, of course, where the phoneme is intact, it is always "chuj." dInIs >Here is "khuy", in the expression "khuy voyne" ("f*ck war" or so) on the >famous T-shirts of the "Russian teen faux-lesbian" singing duo Tatu. >Supposedly these T-shirts appeared on US TV, through oversight and/or >ignorance of Russian. > >http://taty-tatu.org/breve.php3?id_breve=6 > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 13:19:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:19:00 -0800 Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) Message-ID: My grandparents told me (1955) that their little friends used to say the "No more pencils..." rhyme in the '90s in NYC, exactly as given in Barry's post. Both their versions had "dirty looks." On the rare occasions when my grandmother used the word "saucy" in conversation she pronounced it "sassy." I don't believe my grandfather even used the word. (Usually they used the synonyms "fresh" or "smart.") JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been looking at this book of children's rhymes, mostly jump-rope rhymes. It's a nice collection. Fred Shapiro must include some of these. ... ... RIMBLES: A BOOK OF CHILDREN'S CLASSIC GAMES, RHYMES, SONGS AND SAYINGS by Patricia Evans Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1961 (copyright 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961) ... ... Pg. 31: Acka-backa, soda cracker, Does your father chew tobacco? Yes. No. Maybe So. Ye. No, etc. ... Pg. 33: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the ladies How to dance. First the heel And then the toe Left foot forward Out you go. ... Pg. 37: I love coffee I love tea I love the boys And the boys love me. ... Pg. 37: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the girls The hula-hula dance. First on the heel, Then on the toe, Round and round and round you go. Salute to the Captain Bow to the Queen And turn your back On the dirty submarine. ... Pg. 131: I'm rubber and you're glue. it bounces off me and it sticks on you. ... Pg. 132: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire, Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. ... Pg. 135: No more pencils, no more books, No more teachers' dirty looks. ... Pg. 139: Look up. Look down. Your pants is falling down. ... Pg. 142: Goof morning to you, You belong in the zoo. You look like a monkey And act like one too. ... Pg. 147: Scairdy cat, scairdy cat, Don't know what you're looking at. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE & PROQUEST) ... ... _Jump-Rope Jingles; In the spring a little girl's fancy turns to an old sidewalk sport. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=91094973&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106883417&clientId=6588 2) By KATHLEEN F. McDOWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 14, 1946. p. 109 (1 page) ... Charlie Chaplin went to France To teach the ladies how to dance. Heel and toe and away we go. Heel and toe and away we go. Bow to the captain. Kneel to the Queen. And give a salute to the big Marine. ... ... _Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2g8MtMfQZCKyMc1c9B3RWiMnyVnYmGViGw==) Wednesday, April 15, 1925 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) ...the skIppIng. Her verse LOVE COFFEE, I LOVE TEA I LOVE the boys, and the boys.. Pg. 6, col. 3: THOSE "Flaming Youth" tendencies being manifest in the present generation will be nothing compared to the generation that follows, if early indications bear any weight. Three small girls at Gastman school were jumping rope--a long rope, and the girl at one end was chanting cadence for the one in the middle who was doing the skipping. Her verse was: "I love coffee, I love tea, I love the boys, and the boys love me How many boys are stuck on me? One, two, three, four, five, six--" The little miss whose "turn" it was proved to have sixteen ardent suitors. ... ... _Jackie Crams on Knowledge of Holy Land_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=361464752&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=H NP&TS=1106888179&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 8, 1924. p. 39 (1 page) ... Soon the boys and girls of Jackie Coogan's age will be singing the annual vacation anthem--"No more history, no more books, no more teachers' sassy looks." ... ... _ Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2l3oysEnhf/RIQ7ZpP8KnKd+C/D8AbE0ug==) Thursday, June 05, 1924 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+no+more+books+and+no+more+teachers+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+no+more+books+and+no+more+teach ers+AND) ...MORE pencils; NO MORE BOOKS; NO MORE TEACHERS' saucy is theory heard.....to decide the question in Saginaw AND MORE time will be needed for MORE.. Pg. 16, col. 3: "No more pencils; no more books; no more teachers' saucy looks," is the cry heard today from the school children. Why? Because the last day of school, that day so welcome to boys and girls from six to eighteen, has arrived. ... ... _Other 9 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=505192962&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106888559&c lientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 20, 1953. p. 16 (1 page) ... Vivian Volk's "modern" jump-rope song [Aug. 12] was in daily use at Parkside school [69th st. and East End av.] back in the early 1920s. Another variation was /// my mother, your mother, Loved across the way; Fifteen and fourteen East Broadway. Every night they had a fight, And this is what they'd day: Acka-backa soda cracka, acka-backa boo! Acka-backa soda cracka, out goes you! Gloria C. Marsteller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 13:37:58 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:37:58 -0600 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth ministries web site. But it might be of interest: http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 28 13:39:45 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:39:45 -0500 Subject: monetized? Message-ID: as in "... these superstars are finally doing something productive bysides spinning off crap to shareholders when it should have been monetized ..." Today was the first time I had seen monetized (on a yahoo finance board). Has it been around long? Bethany From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Fri Jan 28 13:43:09 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:43:09 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this query. Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 13:42:56 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:42:56 -0600 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: <200501280838.2041fa40393af@rly-na03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: I wrote: >ironically posted by a Christina youth >ministries web site. > Too early in the morning. Of course, I mean "Christian" >But it might be of interest: > >http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > >Patti Kurtz >Minot State University >-- > >Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > >Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > >Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > >Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 28 13:45:14 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:45:14 +0000 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: <200501281338.j0SDc1BI032570@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 28/1/05 1:37 pm, Patti J. Kurtz at kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET wrote: > Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a > "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth > ministries web site. But it might be of interest: Christina youth ministries? Next they'll be telling us God is female neil at typog.co.uk From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Jan 28 13:48:33 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:48:33 -0500 Subject: Candy stripers Message-ID: Candy-stripers exist in my experience. I've been to hospitals in the Toronto area since 1964. "candy-striper" is an entry in the Concise Oxford (2002). The Canadian Oxford (1998) has it without the hyphen; I haven't checked the new edition though. t.m.p. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patti J. Kurtz" To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:20 PM Subject: Candy stripers > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" > Subject: Candy stripers > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Okay, a bit off topic, but does anyone know if they even still use the > term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the > east)? If not, what do they call them? > > Thanks again! > > Patti Kurtz > Minot State University > -- > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > > Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 13:52:17 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:52:17 -0500 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 08:39:45AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > as in "... these superstars are finally doing something productive bysides > spinning off crap to shareholders when it should have been monetized ..." > > Today was the first time I had seen monetized (on a yahoo finance board). > Has it been around long? OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending on which sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 28 13:55:13 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:55:13 -0500 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: <20050128135217.GB1680@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending on which sense. Thanks - I'll check the OED entry. Is its use today relatively rare? Or do I just not move in the monetized circles? Bethany From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Jan 28 13:58:51 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:58:51 -0500 Subject: Fw: Candy stripers Message-ID: Forgot to add the Concise Oxford (correctly I believe) has "a female volunteer nurse in a hospital." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Paikeday" To: "American Dialect Society" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Candy stripers > Candy-stripers exist in my experience. I've been to hospitals in the > Toronto area since 1964. "candy-striper" is an entry in the Concise Oxford > (2002). The Canadian Oxford (1998) has it without the hyphen; I haven't > checked the new edition though. > > t.m.p. > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patti J. Kurtz" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:20 PM > Subject: Candy stripers > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" >> Subject: Candy stripers >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Okay, a bit off topic, but does anyone know if they even still use the >> term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the >> east)? If not, what do they call them? >> >> Thanks again! >> >> Patti Kurtz >> Minot State University >> -- >> >> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? >> >> >> >> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. >> >> >> >> Freeman - It's called dedication. >> >> >> >> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. >> > From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 14:27:13 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:27:13 -0800 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a word I've heard but not often, and the only use I've heard has been in connection with governments monetizing their debts by printing increasingly (decreasingly?) worthless money, as in pre-WWII Germany. The sentence Bethany posted doesn't really make sense to me, as I understand the meaning of the word. JIM --- "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > >OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending > on which sense. > > Thanks - I'll check the OED entry. Is its use today > relatively rare? Or do > I just not move in the monetized circles? > > Bethany > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 14:33:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:33:31 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: Thanks, Wilson. [xui] it is, despite the oddly Chinese look. Never missing a chance to make history leap to life, I offer the following early ex. of "swearing like a trooper": "I then chanced to tread upon the Foot of a Female Quaker, to all outward Appearance, but was surprised to hear her cry out D-------n you, you Son of a B----------- upon which I immediately rebuked her, when all of a sudden resuming her character, Verily, says she, I was to blame; but thou hast bruised me sorely. A few moments after this Adventure, I had like to been knocked down by a Shepherdess for having run my Elbow a little inadvertently into one of her sides. She swore like a Trooper and threatned [sic] me with a very masculine Voice. ---------------"Lucifer," "To Nestor Ironsides, Esq.," in The Guardian No. 454 (2: 262) (London, 1714). This was at a high-toned masquerade ball. It beats OED by 25 years. "Trooper" itself seems not to be findable before 1640. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's correspondent's point. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. -Wilson Gray On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" > comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that > sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested > Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar > synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an > expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned > and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian > especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply > meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw > you!" Pithy. > > Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic > immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion > suddenly became plausible. To me. > > The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this > interesting suggestion." > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 15:03:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:03:37 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is also the surprise or amazement "Hooooeee" in AmerEng (Hooooeeee; look at the size of that sumbitch.')). It made an old country song ('Hoooeeeee, it was the Tennessee Ghost,' sung by Tennessee Enie Ford?) very popular in Poland. Chuj (as it is spelled in Polish) is a very good East-West dialect test. The /ch/ of Eastern Polish preserves a [x] pronunciation, and is distinct from /h/, but the contrast is lost in Western Polish, and one can even see badly spelled graffiti - "huj" in public places alongside the more elegantly spelled "chuj." In the East, of course, where the phoneme is intact, it is always "chuj." dInIs >Here is "khuy", in the expression "khuy voyne" ("f*ck war" or so) on the >famous T-shirts of the "Russian teen faux-lesbian" singing duo Tatu. >Supposedly these T-shirts appeared on US TV, through oversight and/or >ignorance of Russian. > >http://taty-tatu.org/breve.php3?id_breve=6 > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 15:05:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:05:41 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Looks interesting. Thanx Patti. JL "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" Subject: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth ministries web site. But it might be of interest: http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 15:25:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:25:17 -0800 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of "cawed" and "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All these of course are still monophthongs in my speech, but after muttering them aloud even I can hear what you're talking about. Have never thought about this before. JL Terry Irons wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Terry Irons Subject: Low Back Vowel Query ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this query. Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM Fri Jan 28 15:25:19 2005 From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:25:19 -0700 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: <200501280727601.SM01424@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/28/2005 7:27 AM James Smith wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's a word I've heard but not often, and the only use > I've heard has been in connection with governments > monetizing their debts by printing increasingly > (decreasingly?) worthless money, as in pre-WWII > Germany. The term is often used among folks in Web-related businesses, who might want to profit from their Web site's popularity by "monetizing their eyeballs." I suppose the use is roughly synonymous with "cash in". -- Steve Clason From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 28 15:36:10 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:36:10 -0800 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: <20050128142713.43342.qmail@web50602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > It's a word I've heard but not often, and the only use > I've heard has been in connection with governments > monetizing their debts by printing increasingly > (decreasingly?) worthless money, as in pre-WWII > Germany. The sentence Bethany posted doesn't really > make sense to me, as I understand the meaning of the > word. It's very common in the business world in a slightly different sense than that given in the OED (whose definition and examples focus on debt and financial instruments), meaning to find a way to charge money for something that had previously been provided for free, to convert a "cost center" into a "P and L" (profit and loss center). This appears to be the sense used in the quote at the start of the thread. Another example: "I'd like to answer once and for all the question, 'how does Sun monetize Java?' with a historical reference: the same way GE and General Motors have monetized standard rails, Vodafone monetizes GSM, banks monetize ATM networks, and oil and gas companies monetize the fact that my car can use 'gas.'" 12 July 2004, http://sys-con.com/story/?storyid=46265&DE=1 --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 15:44:17 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:44:17 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: What's the diacritical marks in quote starts****************** articles about baseball by Irish American reporter Edward aEURoe ScoopaEUR? Gleeson. quote ends*************** I read that as if quote marks " " (how does one put quote marks in quote marks unambiguously?) were replaced by the strings aEURoe or aUER? And this one quote starts************** oh, whataEUR(tm)s the use? quote ends***************** looks like an apostrophe, denoting a conjunction, has been replaced by aEUR(tm) . If AOL can't handle the basic quote mark and apostrophe, then "the correct AOL setting" is pretty bad. I get the impression that some folks on this list find Daniel's posts repetitious, if not tiresome. It's pretty easy to hit the delete key. I just think his welcome would be less worn-out if he used some sort of standard English ASCII code to post. I know I'd be more likely to read his stuff if it wasn't an effort to translate it. They guy works for a university -- can't he post from their account? (And yes, I sometimes find myself glossing over some of Barry's posts for the same reason. This is not a criticism of their content -- just a statement that for whatever reason (and clearly the reason has to do with AOL), it is a pain to figure out what is being said.) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Erik Hoover > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:37 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > > There aren't any extraneous characters in Mr. Cassidy's post. > He is using the correct AOL setting. The list serve > software is not able to render the necessary diacriticals > correctly. It happens when Barry writes 'nicoise' using the > accurate spelling, too. > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 16:03:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:03:51 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) > > > Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something > about "Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's > three generations of Americans." "Generations" has been used > loosely for a long time, but this must be the briefest > specific interpretation yet since *all* Americans are included. Agree that this is lazy writing, but my grandparents, my parents and I all were Johnny-watchers. So three generations isn't too inaccurate. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 16:01:01 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:01:01 -0600 Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) Message-ID: >From my elementary school days (ca. 1970) Ungawa Ungawa Yo mamma needs a shower Don't Laugh Don't Laugh Yo daddy needs a bath Kiss my acka backa my Soda Cracker My GTO Your stereo Yo Mama Yo Daddy Your Greasy Granny got holes in her Panties And (to the tune of the commercial jingle) McDonald's is your kind of place Hamburgers in your face Two pickles up your nose French fries between your toes The last time that I was there They fried my underwear McDonalds is your kind of place From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Jan 28 16:05:28 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:05:28 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <200501271913670.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bill re: extraneous characters in email the adl list software doesn't handle machine code formatting very well thats why you see extraneous characters everyone could try to send plain text w/o any formatting to the list everyone can choose that preference in their email clients and then again you'd still have to have your browser working well to see it correctly on your screen Not all software play nice with others it's not about language it's about technology. hope that helps, Karen Ellis >On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > > > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > > > without > > > extraneous characters inserted? > > > > Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies > > are not Irish in origin? /// Karen Ellis /// Educational CyberPlayGround __ /// National Children's Folksong Repository \\\/// Guavaberry Books \X/ Funk Brothers WebQuest \/ "Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect." - Chief Seattle "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Mark Twain From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:05:44 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:05:44 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >>> Now, my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J. B. S. Haldane, Possible Worlds and Other Essays (1927) Fred Shapiro <<< I keep this in my collection of natural laws (like Murphy's) under the name "Haldane's Suspicion". mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:10:12 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:10:12 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter sez: >>> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At You, Earthman." <<< I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes more sense to me as a graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a lot... though I can't be sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 but stayed close for many years after). -- Mark M. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:16:51 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:16:51 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: inquit Bev: >>> I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. <<< And I get a lot of grief when copying text electronically between applications. F'rex, I see a nicely formatted web page or MS Word document, with the paragraphs separated by blank lines, and I copy it and paste it into a plaintext document (the only universal format, or the closest thing there is to one)... and those blank lines disappear, because they're part of the formatting, not the text. Grrr. mark by hand From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:19:09 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:19:09 -0500 Subject: just too small Message-ID: Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & Taylor's collection of American proverbs. New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:22:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:22:06 -0500 Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) In-Reply-To: <20050128131900.8036.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:19 AM -0800 1/28/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My grandparents told me (1955) that their little friends used to say >the "No more pencils..." rhyme in the '90s in NYC, exactly as given >in Barry's post. > >Both their versions had "dirty looks." our version did too (early 50's NYC); we didn't know from "saucy" or "sassy" larry > On the rare occasions when my grandmother used the word "saucy" in >conversation she pronounced it "sassy." I don't believe my >grandfather even used the word. (Usually they used the synonyms >"fresh" or "smart.") > >JL > From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 28 16:29:46 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:29:46 +0000 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <200501281616.j0SGGrMU014090@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 28/1/05 4:16 pm, Mark A. Mandel at mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU wrote: > > And I get a lot of grief when copying text electronically between > applications. F'rex, I see a nicely formatted web page or MS Word document, > with the paragraphs separated by blank lines, and I copy it and paste it > into a plaintext document (the only universal format, or the closest thing > there is to one)... and those blank lines disappear, because they're part of > the formatting, not the text. Grrr. As a typographer, I work in QuarkXpress on a Mac. Text, however, arrives in all formats from a variety of programmes. I normally set text with indented paragraphs (either an indent equivalent to the text size or to the overall leading). Full out paras are used in chapter openings and after cross/sub-heads. I tend to find that Word users who indent use a tab, rather than an indent style-sheet. This means that when I reformat the text I have to do a find/replace on all the tabs, then apply a para indent style-sheet. Not too difficult. With double-spaced, full-out paras I simply do a find/replace for two para returns and substitute one para return. Then apply my para indent style-sheet. Printed text requires different treatment from that of correspondence or emails. neil at typog.co.uk From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 16:34:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:34:56 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) Message-ID: So it was just a joke? That's a relief. I saw it in the singular because it was written at exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in an university men's room. Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The museum was badly affected, a number of priceless paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an urgent effort was being made try to restore what paintings could be saved. Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building up inside a completely different university's lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the men's rooms. Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" And I've never forgotten. JL JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter sez: >>> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At You, Earthman." <<< I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes more sense to me as a graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a lot... though I can't be sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 but stayed close for many years after). -- Mark M. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 16:36:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:36:39 -0800 Subject: just too small Message-ID: As I've heard it, undoubtedly in a western, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: just too small ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & Taylor's collection of American proverbs. New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 16:39:26 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:39:26 -0500 Subject: "super"model inflation Message-ID: I was amused by this article in the otherwise financially inclined TheStreet.com, which made some interesting observations on the description of Donald Trump's wife's former occupation: --- Back in April and May 2004 -- when Trump and Knauss' engagement became public -- we found 104 press mentions of Knauss that mentioned her occupation. In 101 of them, she was described as a model. In three, a supermodel. Fast forward to this month, when we found 212 mentions of Knauss' job. She was identified as a supermodel in 33 of them. In other words, a model who was rated a supermodel 3% of the time eight months ago got bumped up to being a supermodel 16% of the time today. --- No mention of Barry Popik's work on this term, however. Full article at http://www.thestreet.com/_tscs/markets/dumbestgm/10205701_4.html Jesse Sheidlower OED From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jan 28 17:11:02 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:11:02 -0600 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query In-Reply-To: <41FA416D.809CB079@moreheadstate.edu> Message-ID: I have some evidence that suggests the opposite of what you're finding. In written responses to a minimal pair test for the low back vowel merger in Missouri, there are generally small differences in the reactions to the pairs Don/Dawn and cot/caught. People who have the merger tend to have it in both environments. One exception is in the southeast part of the state, the area of strongest Southern influence historically. Here the merger appears to be much more common prenasally (i.e. in Don/Dawn) than before /t/ (i.e. cot/caught). I too would be interested to hear about any work on the conditioning effects of the upglided open o vowel. On 1/28/05 7:43 AM, "Terry Irons" wrote: > Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a > strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that > distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in > the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in > Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this > query. > > Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before > voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an > upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are > monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented > on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may > be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the > merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by > expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) > > -- > Virtually, Terry > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu > Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 > Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jan 28 17:51:13 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:51:13 -0800 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query In-Reply-To: <20050128152517.30351.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They're not monophthongs to a listener from points west! Peter Mc. --On Friday, January 28, 2005 7:25 AM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of "cawed" and > "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All these of course > are still monophthongs in my speech, but after muttering them aloud even > I can hear what you're talking about. > > Have never thought about this before. > > JL ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 17:59:27 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:59:27 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) In-Reply-To: <20050128163456.86264.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My fave, from the men's room of Dirty Frank's at 13th & Pine in Philly ca. 1987: Free Soviet jews! And get valuable coupons too! Ed --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > So it was just a joke? That's a relief. > > I saw it in the singular because it was written at > exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in > an university men's room. > > Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a > devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The > museum was badly affected, a number of priceless > paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an > urgent effort was being made try to restore what > paintings could be saved. > > Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building > up inside a completely different university's > lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, > unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged > phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, > and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while > Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a > janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the > men's rooms. > > Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny > words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - > "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" > > And I've never forgotten. > > JL > > JL > > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) > (etc.) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter sez: > >>> > A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At > You, Earthman." > <<< > > I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes > more sense to me as a > graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a > lot... though I can't be > sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 > but stayed close for many > years after). > > -- Mark M. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 28 18:18:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:18:48 -0500 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >>OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending on which sense. > >Thanks - I'll check the OED entry. Is its use today relatively rare? Or do >I just not move in the monetized circles? > >Bethany ~~~~~~~~~ Its negative, "demonetize" was heard in the UK quite a bit when I was last there, shortly before the decimalization of the currency. It had to do with taking certain coins out of circulation by removing their monetary value altogether. A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 28 18:28:27 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:28:27 -0800 Subject: agreement with nearest Message-ID: ADS-L figures prominently in my latest posting ("Agreement with nearest always bad?") on Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001846.html From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 28 18:43:17 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:43:17 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query In-Reply-To: <20050128152517.30351.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have never heard any New Yorker do this vowel (in any position) with other than an inglide; an upglide seems impossible in that variety. dInIs >There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of >"cawed" and "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All >these of course are still monophthongs in my speech, but after >muttering them aloud even I can hear what you're talking about. > >Have never thought about this before. > >JL > > > >Terry Irons wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Terry Irons >Subject: Low Back Vowel Query >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a >strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that >distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in >the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in >Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this >query. > >Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before >voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an >upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are >monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented >on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may >be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the >merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by >expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) > >-- >Virtually, Terry >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) >Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu >Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 >Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 18:59:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:59:36 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This, interesting in itself, also illustrates the thou/you split. Good on you, Jon! -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson. [xui] it is, despite the oddly Chinese look. > > Never missing a chance to make history leap to life, I offer the > following early ex. of "swearing like a trooper": > > "I then chanced to tread upon the Foot of a Female Quaker, to all > outward Appearance, but was surprised to hear her cry out D-------n > you, you Son of a B----------- upon which I immediately rebuked her, > when all of a sudden resuming her character, Verily, says she, I was > to blame; but thou hast bruised me sorely. A few moments after this > Adventure, I had like to been knocked down by a Shepherdess for having > run my Elbow a little inadvertently into one of her sides. She swore > like a Trooper and threatned [sic] me with a very masculine Voice. > > ---------------"Lucifer," > "To Nestor Ironsides, Esq.," in The Guardian No. 454 (2: 262) (London, > 1714). > > This was at a high-toned masquerade ball. It beats OED by 25 years. > "Trooper" itself seems not to be findable before 1640. > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former > West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in > "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the > Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the > phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, > "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation > hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the > genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian > military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase > respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us > American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob > tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck > thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used > "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the > case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse > like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. > > The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of > taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that > the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like > "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration > of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's > correspondent's point. > > I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were > using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" > and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault > rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: hooey >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" >> comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that >> sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested >> Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar >> synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an >> expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned >> and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian >> especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply >> meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw >> you!" Pithy. >> >> Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic >> immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion >> suddenly became plausible. To me. >> >> The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this >> interesting suggestion." >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 19:13:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:13:27 -0500 Subject: just too small In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether Jim Fisk is an ancestor of Wilson "The Kingpin" Fisk. -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: just too small > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & > Taylor's collection of American proverbs. > > New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, > Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. > Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: > National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally > financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 19:31:49 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:31:49 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can top that one. This is from a men's-room wall at Washington University in Saint Louis: Please join us in the struggle to stamp out racism! Take a nigger home with you for dinner. (Yes, I'm black. But does that mean that I can't have a sense of humor?) -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My fave, from the men's room of Dirty Frank's at 13th > & Pine in Philly ca. 1987: > > Free Soviet jews! > And get valuable coupons too! > > Ed > > > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> So it was just a joke? That's a relief. >> >> I saw it in the singular because it was written at >> exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in >> an university men's room. >> >> Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a >> devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The >> museum was badly affected, a number of priceless >> paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an >> urgent effort was being made try to restore what >> paintings could be saved. >> >> Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building >> up inside a completely different university's >> lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, >> unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged >> phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, >> and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while >> Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a >> janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the >> men's rooms. >> >> Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny >> words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - >> "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" >> >> And I've never forgotten. >> >> JL >> >> JL >> >> >> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >> Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) >> (etc.) >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter sez: >>>>> >> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At >> You, Earthman." >> <<< >> >> I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes >> more sense to me as a >> graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a >> lot... though I can't be >> sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 >> but stayed close for many >> years after). >> >> -- Mark M. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From davemarc at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 17:54:20 2005 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:54:20 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: From: Jesse Sheidlower > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has > at least been his recent pattern. > Ah, that Hopalong Cassidy! David From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 20:36:40 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:36:40 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of davemarc > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:54 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > > From: Jesse Sheidlower > > > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > > read the responses (though of course he could be using the > archives). > > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. > This has at > > least been his recent pattern. > > > Ah, that Hopalong Cassidy! > You probably weren't aware, but "hopalong" derives from the Irish. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 28 20:40:21 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:40:21 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice Message-ID: In a letter printed in the NYT 1/28/05 (p. A20), John A. Viteritti asserts: ----- In "Winning Cases, Losing Voters" (Op-Ed, Jan. 26), Paul Starr presents the Democratic Party with the Hobbesian choice of living by its convictions [AMZ: and losing votes] or compromising its principles in order to get more votes. ----- At first i thought this was a malapropism ("Hobbesian" for "Hobson's") followed by a semantic extension, from 'no choice at all' to 'a bad choice, between two unacceptable alternatives'. In any case, the expression was unfamiliar to me. But then Google told me that the Hobbesian path was well trodden, especially in 2003. First, at http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-wood042103.asp there's a National Review piece (4/21/03), "Hobbesian Choice: An oral translation", by Peter Wood, which begins: ----- MR. PAYTON: I think that decision which would say that we have to choose, would be a Hobbesian choice here. I _thought_ that's what I heard Mr. Payton said, but I had to wait for the transcript to be sure. John Payton is the lawyer who argued the University of Michigan's case to the Supreme Court in _Gratz_ v. _Bollinger_ on April 1. ----- After some Payton-bashing, Wood gets around to asking: "... What in the world is a Hobbesian choice?" He rejects the Hobson's choice interpretation, in favor of invoking the ideas of political philosopher Thomas Hobbes. Later that year, in July, the folks on STUMPERS-L coped with Hobbesian choices. Here's our very own Fred Shapiro: ----- On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Sidney Allinson wrote: > > Wall Street Journal (via ProQuest Nat'l Newspapers - 1988 to present): > > Harbrandt, Robert F. "Letter to the editor:EDB goes against the grain" > > Wall Street Journal_, April 10, 1984. > > "EPA did not make a Hobbesian choice when they banned EDB." > Surely, the correct phrase is: > "HOBSON'S Choice." No, actually "Hobbesian choice" appears to be a legitimate term that is not a malapropism for "Hobson's choice." It is used to mean a choice between brutish options, whereas "Hobson's choice" means no choice at all. ----- At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto Hobson's, a suspicion that was not allayed by a column (later in 2003) in which it's maintained that a choice between two bad alternatives *is* no choice at all: ----- http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/tar.htm "Tar Baby II" by Edgar J. Steele, 10/25/03, about G. W. Bush: George's current dilemma is a classic Hobbesian choice, which is no choice at all, the name of which derives from Thomas Hobbes' belief that man must choose between living in a state of nature (a life which is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short") or suffering under an arbitrary and absolute government (Thomas Hobbes, _The Elements of Law: Natural and Politic_, 1640). ----- So, are these references to Hobbes just after-the-fact reworkings, or did someone devise "Hobbesian choice" independently of Hobson? How far back has anyone gotten with "Hobbesian choice"? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 21:02:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:02:58 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: A version of this is the only instance of anti-Semitism that I recall from my childhood, ca.1940-1950. Acka-backa soda cracker If your daddy chews tobacco He's a dirty Jew One two three means "Out goes you" The first person out was "it" in a game of hide-and-(go-)seek or whatever. Adults who overheard us stopped us children from using such language. At the time, though, we had no referent for the term "soda cracker," let alone for the term "dirty Jew." Hence, we had no idea what the problem was. So, we simply stopped using this rhyme where adults could overhear us, just as we stopped using the other usual obscenities in the presence of adults, though we continued to use them otherwise. Well, we did stop using "Acka-backa" when we became old enough to lose interest in playing "it" games. -Wilson Gray From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jan 28 21:40:54 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:40:54 -0500 Subject: lavatory signs Message-ID: The best men's room sign ever has to be on the brass plate affixed to the wall in the British Museum's men's room: "Casual Ablutions Only" From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 21:50:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:50:26 -0500 Subject: just too small Message-ID: George Thompson wrote: > >Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & >Taylor's collection of American proverbs. > >New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, >Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. >Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: >National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally >financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >As I've heard it, undoubtedly in a western, "This town ain't big enough for >the both of us!" And let's not forget this classic exchange... ------ "Bugs Bunny Rides Again" (1948, directed by Friz Freleng) Yosemite Sam: This town ain't big enough fer the two of us! Bugs Bunny: It ain't? Sam: No, it ain't! (Bugs builds up the town until it resembles the New York skyline) Sam: No, still not big enough! ------ Here's an early example from Warrenton, Georgia (not exactly the Wild West, but apparently notorious at the time for blood feuds): ------ M'GREGOR KILLS CODY; THE END OF A BLOODY FEUD IN WARRENTON. M'GREGOR FIRES THREE SHOTS And Puts an End to the Life of Cody, Who Had Attempted to Assassinate Him--A Woman in the Case. Atlanta Constitution, Oct 13, 1889, p. 15 Well, Jim," said McGregor. "I always thought you did it, and I want to say that this town isn't big enough for both of us. I have nothing to leave for, and you have. I won't hurt you. You didn't think of my wife and children, but I will think of yours, but you must leave here in ten days." "But, Mack, I can't get ready in that time." "How long do you want?" "I don't know." "Will a hundred days suit you?" "Yes." "Then in a hundred days you musg go. The town ain't big enough for both of us, and if you go, all right; if you don't, I will prosecute you." ------ --Ben Zimmer From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Fri Jan 28 22:11:09 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:11:09 -0500 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: <20050128204027.0CC7F7AE93@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Arnold, Your post reminds me, eggcorn-wise, that on today's NPR program "Science Friday" I heard a caller "exult" the guest and host to spread the word about avian flu. Probably an overly sincere stumble but I exult you to add it to your ongoing research. Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Jan 28, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Hobbesian choice > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a letter printed in the NYT 1/28/05 (p. A20), John A. Viteritti > asserts: > ----- > In "Winning Cases, Losing Voters" (Op-Ed, Jan. 26), Paul Starr presents > the Democratic Party with the Hobbesian choice of living by its > convictions [AMZ: and losing votes] or compromising its principles in > order to get more votes. > ----- > > At first i thought this was a malapropism ("Hobbesian" for "Hobson's") > followed by a semantic extension, from 'no choice at all' to 'a bad > choice, between two unacceptable alternatives'. In any case, the > expression was unfamiliar to me. But then Google told me that the > Hobbesian path was well trodden, especially in 2003. > > First, at > http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-wood042103.asp > there's a National Review piece (4/21/03), "Hobbesian Choice: An oral > translation", by Peter Wood, which begins: > ----- > MR. PAYTON: I think that decision which would say that we have to > choose, would be a Hobbesian choice here. > > I _thought_ that's what I heard Mr. Payton said, but I had to wait for > the transcript to be sure. John Payton is the lawyer who argued the > University of Michigan's case to the Supreme Court in _Gratz_ v. > _Bollinger_ on April 1. > ----- > After some Payton-bashing, Wood gets around to asking: "... What in the > world is a Hobbesian choice?" He rejects the Hobson's choice > interpretation, in favor of invoking the ideas of political philosopher > Thomas Hobbes. > > Later that year, in July, the folks on STUMPERS-L coped with Hobbesian > choices. Here's our very own Fred Shapiro: > ----- > On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Sidney Allinson wrote: > >>> Wall Street Journal (via ProQuest Nat'l Newspapers - 1988 to > present): >>> Harbrandt, Robert F. "Letter to the editor:EDB goes against the > grain" >>> Wall Street Journal_, April 10, 1984. >>> "EPA did not make a Hobbesian choice when they banned EDB." > >> Surely, the correct phrase is: >> "HOBSON'S Choice." > > No, actually "Hobbesian choice" appears to be a legitimate term that is > not a malapropism for "Hobson's choice." It is used to mean a choice > between brutish options, whereas "Hobson's choice" means no choice at > all. > ----- > > At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very > far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than > Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime > (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still > suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto > Hobson's, a suspicion that was not allayed by a column (later in 2003) > in which it's maintained that a choice between two bad alternatives > *is* no choice at all: > ----- > http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/tar.htm > > "Tar Baby II" by Edgar J. Steele, 10/25/03, about G. W. Bush: > > George's current dilemma is a classic Hobbesian choice, which is no > choice at all, the name of which derives from Thomas Hobbes' belief > that man must choose between living in a state of nature (a life which > is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short") or suffering under an > arbitrary and absolute government (Thomas Hobbes, _The Elements of Law: > Natural and Politic_, 1640). > ----- > > So, are these references to Hobbes just after-the-fact reworkings, or > did someone devise "Hobbesian choice" independently of Hobson? How far > back has anyone gotten with "Hobbesian choice"? > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 22:53:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:53:59 -0500 Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen writes: >>>>> FWIW, Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologizing no doubt contains many "false positives." But I'll say this for his efforts: If there are in fact any words currently regarded as being of unknown origin but in fact deriving from Irish, Cassidy will likely find them. At that point I'll very willingly overlook all the suggestions which didn't pan out and rejoice at the few which did. "Kibosh" may be one such item (let's wait and see), and perhaps his suggestion on the card game faro deserves further consideration too. <<<<< I'll admit that. Now, who is willing to plow through it all to sift the gold from the dross? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Jan 28 23:12:33 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:12:33 -0600 Subject: lavatory signs In-Reply-To: <002b01c50582$0d265330$28b99b3f@chaos> Message-ID: In the mid 50s at Jimmy's: "Irving DePriest is a homosexual" Which, when everyone was being called a fag or queer, I thought was high praise for both the U of C's erudition and the inherent politeness of scholars. In '57 saw the same graffito in a men's room in Los Angeles > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 28 23:19:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:19:01 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: <65abe5f740ce717c30fe5a234556b00a@grinchy.com> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Erik Hoover wrote: > Arnold, > > Your post reminds me, eggcorn-wise, that on today's NPR program > "Science Friday" I heard a caller "exult" the guest and host to spread > the word about avian flu. > > Probably an overly sincere stumble but I exult you to add it to your > ongoing research. a lovely classical malapropism, but not actually eggcorny. meanwhile, over on the Language Log, my colleague David Beaver seems to have made a two-part error himself: a lexical substitution, of "snowclone" for "eggcorn" (this is semantically based, unlike Hoover's "exult" example, which is phonologically based), but then the word choice errors he cites look like plain ol' classical malapropisms, with no eggcornic tendencies. entertaining though: "defecated" for "dedicated" and "defected". arnold From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 23:28:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:28:23 -0500 Subject: Irish Gaelic Message-ID: I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" [il,I]? I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely stating that that's what happened, surely? -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 23:32:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:32:21 -0500 Subject: lavatory signs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ving is gay?! Who knew? On Jan 28, 2005, at 6:12 PM, paulzjoh wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: lavatory signs > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In the mid 50s at Jimmy's: "Irving DePriest is a homosexual" Which, > when everyone was being called a fag or queer, I thought was high > praise > for both the U of C's erudition and the inherent politeness of > scholars. > > In '57 saw the same graffito in a men's room in Los Angeles > >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:14:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:14:45 -0800 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: The sexual sense of "jazz," v., further complicates etymological investigation. There is widespread testimony from the '20s and later that this was known before the word for the music, yet - perhaps for obvious reasons - pre-WWI cites are unavailable. If "jazz" = "screw" antedates "jazz" = "music," the problem is very different than if the reverse obtains. Raven McDavid, Jr., recalled once that when his father first heard that a "jazz" band was coming to Charleston, he couldn't believe his ears. And his reaction allegedly had nothing to do with music. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Jesse, I assume you're checking your Irish dictionary and your team of > experts if indicated. > Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point. > > If it is, then shame on me. > > JL "Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point." I'm standing with you foursquare on this one. I've always felt that the decades-long attempt to connect the colored American with the devil's music is totally misplaced. Clearly, Irish jigs, reels, and such like are the true source of such cacophony. A more recent example is the recording of the song "Colours" by the Irish singer Donovan. Notice the oddly-rhythmic drumming that is heard as part of the background music, not to mention the singer's own particular method of playing the guitar. It's a revelation! And then there's the fact that, for an Irish-American former colleague of mine, one David Beach ("Beach" doesn't strike me as being an Irish name, but, since I found out that the "obviously" Teutonic name, "Hindelang," is of Irish provenance, I've learned to reserve judgment on such points), the word "jazz" was a living, active part of his normal vocabulary for that for which others would substitute "fuck." -Wilson Gray > > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> >>> Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive >>> without >>> extraneous characters inserted? >> >> Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some >> etymologies >> are not Irish in origin? > > Hahahahaha! > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has > at least been his recent pattern. > > Jesse Sheidlower > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:19:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:19:07 -0800 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: Inglide, upglide, it's a glide, OK? Let God sort 'em out. JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Low Back Vowel Query ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have never heard any New Yorker do this vowel (in any position) with other than an inglide; an upglide seems impossible in that variety. dInIs >There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of >"cawed" and "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All >these of course are still monophthongs in my speech, but after >muttering them aloud even I can hear what you're talking about. > >Have never thought about this before. > >JL > > > >Terry Irons wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Terry Irons >Subject: Low Back Vowel Query >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a >strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that >distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in >the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in >Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this >query. > >Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before >voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an >upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are >monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented >on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may >be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the >merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by >expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) > >-- >Virtually, Terry >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) >Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu >Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 >Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:21:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:21:56 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: Thanks, Wilson. I didn't even catch the "thou/ you." That's two big contributions to thou/ you studies in two days! (And they're contemporary with each other as well.) JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This, interesting in itself, also illustrates the thou/you split. Good on you, Jon! -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson. [xui] it is, despite the oddly Chinese look. > > Never missing a chance to make history leap to life, I offer the > following early ex. of "swearing like a trooper": > > "I then chanced to tread upon the Foot of a Female Quaker, to all > outward Appearance, but was surprised to hear her cry out D-------n > you, you Son of a B----------- upon which I immediately rebuked her, > when all of a sudden resuming her character, Verily, says she, I was > to blame; but thou hast bruised me sorely. A few moments after this > Adventure, I had like to been knocked down by a Shepherdess for having > run my Elbow a little inadvertently into one of her sides. She swore > like a Trooper and threatned [sic] me with a very masculine Voice. > > ---------------"Lucifer," > "To Nestor Ironsides, Esq.," in The Guardian No. 454 (2: 262) (London, > 1714). > > This was at a high-toned masquerade ball. It beats OED by 25 years. > "Trooper" itself seems not to be findable before 1640. > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former > West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in > "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the > Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the > phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, > "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation > hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the > genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian > military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase > respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us > American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob > tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck > thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used > "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the > case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse > like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. > > The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of > taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that > the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like > "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration > of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's > correspondent's point. > > I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were > using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" > and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault > rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: hooey >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" >> comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that >> sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested >> Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar >> synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an >> expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned >> and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian >> especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply >> meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw >> you!" Pithy. >> >> Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic >> immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion >> suddenly became plausible. To me. >> >> The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this >> interesting suggestion." >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:23:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:23:53 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) Message-ID: Your sense of humor must be as prescribed by us liberal white guys. Well, duh! JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can top that one. This is from a men's-room wall at Washington University in Saint Louis: Please join us in the struggle to stamp out racism! Take a nigger home with you for dinner. (Yes, I'm black. But does that mean that I can't have a sense of humor?) -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My fave, from the men's room of Dirty Frank's at 13th > & Pine in Philly ca. 1987: > > Free Soviet jews! > And get valuable coupons too! > > Ed > > > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> So it was just a joke? That's a relief. >> >> I saw it in the singular because it was written at >> exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in >> an university men's room. >> >> Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a >> devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The >> museum was badly affected, a number of priceless >> paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an >> urgent effort was being made try to restore what >> paintings could be saved. >> >> Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building >> up inside a completely different university's >> lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, >> unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged >> phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, >> and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while >> Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a >> janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the >> men's rooms. >> >> Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny >> words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - >> "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" >> >> And I've never forgotten. >> >> JL >> >> JL >> >> >> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >> Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) >> (etc.) >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter sez: >>>>> >> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At >> You, Earthman." >> <<< >> >> I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes >> more sense to me as a >> graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a >> lot... though I can't be >> sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 >> but stayed close for many >> years after). >> >> -- Mark M. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 29 01:04:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:04:30 -0500 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:40 PM -0800 1/28/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote (quoting various authorities): >In a letter printed in the NYT 1/28/05 (p. A20), John A. Viteritti >asserts: >----- >In "Winning Cases, Losing Voters" (Op-Ed, Jan. 26), Paul Starr presents >the Democratic Party with the Hobbesian choice of living by its >convictions [AMZ: and losing votes] or compromising its principles in >order to get more votes. >----- >... >> Surely, the correct phrase is: >> "HOBSON'S Choice." > >No, actually "Hobbesian choice" appears to be a legitimate term that is >not a malapropism for "Hobson's choice." It is used to mean a choice >between brutish options, Or more generously, a choice of nasty, brutish, or short. Reminds me of my favorite question on one of those standardized career-options psych exams (sort of like SATs, but with life choices rather than the usual academic questions) they used to give us in high school and college: Would you rather be a. lazy b. stupid c. mean Little did I know at the time that this too was a Hobbesian choice. (Of course I chose (a), since I figured I had a head-start on that.) >whereas "Hobson's choice" means no choice at >all. >----- L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 01:36:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:36:26 -0800 Subject: Irish Gaelic Message-ID: Simple assertion does get us nowhere. If - and I speak as a celtolinguistic moron - the word is phonetically, semantically, and socially plausible as an English etymon, it's another semifinalist with some plausibility. Ideally, we'd like to have an unmistakable citational antedating with the Irish spelling or an approximation of it in an Irish context saying something like "playin' 'at divil's ceas music de whole night t'rough!" That kind of citation shows up in the OED frequently, though not, obviously, in this case. Jerry Cohen has seriously called into question the idea that "jazz" was applied to the music by people, presumably in or around N.O., who were familiar with the sexual sense of the word. The fact *seems* to be that "jazz music" was applied first to "Livery Stable Blues" and similar pieces as played by "The Original New Orelans Jazz Band" in Chicago. Of course other N.O. musicians were playing even bluesier music at the same time, but my limited research seems to support Jerry's conclusion that this early generation of black "jazzmen" went right on calling their music "ragtime," which was certainly one of its prime ingredients. In those long dead days before ubiquitous mass-media publicity, there was no pressing need to "repackage" the music as something brand-new. It was just extra-bluesy ragtime with a few other ideas, and guys like Jelly Roll had been playing it for years. By 1918, its newest aficionados were routinely calling it "jazz." If a pre-1912 cite ever appears, esp. outside of San Francisco, the entire linguistic picture might very well change. The musical picture hasn't and wouldn't. Jazz < ceas ? I don't know. At least there is some plausibility there. For the moment. If Cassidy is in error about the Irish prununciation or meaning, well, that's another story. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Irish Gaelic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" [il,I]? I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely stating that that's what happened, surely? -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 29 02:29:35 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:29:35 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <812a80f8a32a0c667f5149ec186e32dd@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 4:02 PM -0500 1/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >A version of this is the only instance of anti-Semitism that I recall >from my childhood, ca.1940-1950. > >Acka-backa soda cracker >If your daddy chews tobacco >He's a dirty Jew >One two three means >"Out goes you" > >The first person out was "it" in a game of hide-and-(go-)seek or >whatever. Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go My mother said to pick this very one Y-O-U spells you (If you got away with it, you stretched it out with fillers until you picked whoever you wanted to pick in the first place, but the first three lines were invariant.) But at some point I learned, to my horror, that this was bowdlerized from the original, which was not based on the t-word. And I see the cultural memory persists-- http://www.promoguy.net/archives/001874.php March 05, 2003 Toe Jam From the ArcaMax news service: An April 15 trial date has been set by a Kansas City, Mo., judge for a lawsuit against Southwest Airlines over a flight attendant who was heard on the plane's intercom system saying, "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, pick a seat, we've got to go." Flight attendant Jennifer Cundiff was boarding passengers, the Kansas City Star reports, when she recited the ditty that has, in the past, been used as a racial slur against blacks. Sisters Grace Fuller and Louise Sawyer sued, claiming the airline was guilty of racism because the saying -- the original version goes: Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, catch a n----- by the tow (sic) -- was aimed at them. larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 03:20:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:20:14 EST Subject: Pay-to-Sway; You have to be in it to win it; Proseccheria Message-ID: PAY-TO-SWAY ... No, not that kind of sway! Errol Louis (the former New York Sun columnist who the New York Times should have hired) has a great column (again) in today's New York Daily News, 28 January 2005, pg. 51, cols. 1-3, "On Ethics" by Errol Louis, "Wake up, Maggie: Another conservative columnist is clueless in pay-to-sway scandal." ... It's about conservative media members Armstrong Williams and Maggie Gallagher being paid by the Bush White House. Saturday Night Live recently did a fake "Hardball" with Chris Matthews parody, with an actor playing Armstrong Williams as a guest. "Armstrong Williams, any final comments?" Matthews asked. "Yes. One phone call can save you a bundle on car insurance," Williams replied. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS_ ... _Another conservative columnist is clueless in pay-to-sway scandal_ (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/275530p-235931c.html) New York Daily News, NY - 17 hour ... running their own racket. The Bush administration's pay-to-sway scandal continues to spread like an oil slick. The latest disclosure ... ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT TO WIN IT ... >From the New York Sun, 28 January 2005, "Bob Brown, 79, Mets Radio Host, TV Lottery Presenter," pg. 24, col. 3: ... "He was the one who came up with the phrase 'You have to be in it to win it," Ms. Mayer (Joanne Mayer, his daughter--ed.) said in a telephone interview with the Associated Press. A (Col. 4--ed.) New York lottery spokeswoman in Albany, N. Y., could not confirm that claim. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) ... _Radio host Brown remembered_ (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20050127&content_id=935325&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp) MLB.com - Jan 2 ... Brown also hosted the weekly New York State televised lottery drawing and is credited with coining the phrase "You have to be in it to win it.". ... ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- PROSECCHERIA (WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?) ... (GOOGLE) ... _New York's Premier Alternative Newspaper. Arts, Music, Food ..._ (http://www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm) ... Proseccheria. ... Window boxes of tulips line the front of Pasticcio restaurant, and a sign titles its adjacent barroom as Proseccheria. ... www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm - 39k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QzaMKAD8m78J:www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm+proseccheria&hl= en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm) ... ... "Proseccheria" is not in the OED. Revised OED, perhaps? I ate tonight at Pasticchio, 447 Third Avenue, between East 30th amd East 31st streets. It's OK Italian. ... Other places visited this past week included the Plaza Diner at Second Avenue and East 56th Street (good food and prices) and the Westway Diner on Ninth Avenue and West 44th Street. I had Westway's French Onion Soup ($3.25), and it was terrific, perhaps the best French Onion Soup in New York that's not from La Bonne Soupe. ... I asked the owner how come New York Metro ran a piece on French Onion Soup recently, but his place wasn't even listed. He told me that you have to pay to get mentioned in those newspapers. You know, take out ads. ... I guess I'm figuring out how this news business works. OK, Chicago Tribune reader representative! I want to get credit for my work when it appears for free in your newspaper, eight years after it was rejected. How much will that cost me? ... From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Jan 29 03:36:17 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:36:17 -0500 Subject: Pay-to-Sway; You have to be in it to win it; Proseccheria Message-ID: Barry Popik asked: >>I guess I'm figuring out how this news business works. OK, Chicago Tribune >>reader representative! I want to get credit for my work when it appears for >>free in your newspaper, eight years after it was rejected. How much will >>that >>cost me? Can't resist the opportunity to repeat the time-honored wisdom that if you have to ask...it's more than you can afford. Unless you've got some spare limbs hanging around? And don't waste your time trying to 'get a leg up on them', Barry. Just like personal days, you can't carry over personal parts from pay period to pay period. Michael McKernan From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Sat Jan 29 03:54:05 2005 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:54:05 -0600 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Message-ID: Here in southern La. was our version. (By the way I had no idea what a Jew was until I was in high school. ) Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Catch a N------ by the toe I f he hollers make him pay Fifty Dollars every day. My mother cut her finger, what color was the blood? (Answer:red) R--E--D-- spell red and Out you go with a dirty dishrag in your mouth. Anyone remember this one? I'm not sure about the words.. Inka Dink A Bottle of Ink You sure do stink. Then there was ... A tisket a Tasket A green and Yellow Basket I wrote a letter to my mom And on the way I dropped it. A little N----- picked it up and Put it in his pocket. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 29 04:02:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:02:27 -0500 Subject: Irish Gaelic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well argued, Jonathan, and I agree with you. I'm assuming that Prof. Cassidy is truly fluent in at least literary Irish Gaelic and one dialect. But I can only assume that. If he would say something like, the word "teas" is pronounced [however] and means "whatever" in literary Irish Gaelic (Society for the Resuscitation of Irish, Dictionary1999, p.1033). However, in dialect D, spoken in area A, from which a large portion of the Irish-American population originated, this string has the pronunciation "chazz" or even "jazz" and has the meaning, "a type of syncopated music" (O'Whoever, Irish Folksong, 1901, p.137). Or, failing that, something like, when I was a kid in Brooklyn, my grandparents used to sing a particular song. When I asked about it, they said whatever. I could go for that. But not Irish seol, pronounced shell and pisce, vocative (a) phisce, pronounced fish: English shellfish. I have to ask, are both words from the same dialect? And what dialect of Irish is that, so that we can know that what you say are the pronunciation and the meaning are correct? Is your spelling the traditional one or the modern one? What is the approximate date? etc. etc. Somewhere in my junkyardish office cum library, I have a pamphlet that shows that the use of spoken Irish in what is now the United States was not unknown in the 18th century. And there's the Irish signatory of the Declaration, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, whose brother, John, a Jesuit, was the first American Catholic bishop. Every word of Cassidy's etymologies could be correct, but he doesn't provide enough info for people not well-trained in Irish to be able to tell. -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Simple assertion does get us nowhere. If - and I speak as a > celtolinguistic moron - the word is phonetically, semantically, and > socially plausible as an English etymon, it's another semifinalist > with some plausibility. > > Ideally, we'd like to have an unmistakable citational antedating with > the Irish spelling or an approximation of it in an Irish context > saying something like "playin' 'at divil's ceas music de whole night > t'rough!" That kind of citation shows up in the OED frequently, > though not, obviously, in this case. > > Jerry Cohen has seriously called into question the idea that "jazz" > was applied to the music by people, presumably in or around N.O., who > were familiar with the sexual sense of the word. The fact *seems* to > be that "jazz music" was applied first to "Livery Stable Blues" and > similar pieces as played by "The Original New Orelans Jazz Band" in > Chicago. Of course other N.O. musicians were playing even bluesier > music at the same time, but my limited research seems to support > Jerry's conclusion that this early generation of black "jazzmen" went > right on calling their music "ragtime," which was certainly one of its > prime ingredients. In those long dead days before ubiquitous > mass-media publicity, there was no pressing need to "repackage" the > music as something brand-new. It was just extra-bluesy ragtime with a > few other ideas, and guys like Jelly Roll had been playing it for > years. By 1918, its newest aficionados were routinely calling it > "jazz." > > If a pre-1912 cite ever appears, esp. outside of San Francisco, the > entire linguistic picture might very well change. The musical picture > hasn't and wouldn't. > Jazz < ceas ? I don't know. At least there is some plausibility > there. For the moment. > > If Cassidy is in error about the Irish prununciation or meaning, > well, that's another story. > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish > Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it > formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a > professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of > Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. > > E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a > citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English > word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has > the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" > of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And > if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. > Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to > move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of > "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" > [il,I]? > > I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as > [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely > stating that that's what happened, surely? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 29 04:29:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:29:58 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was a kid during WWII, so the Eenie Meenie that we learned went: Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a Jap by his toe If he hollers "Oh-Ee-Yo" Throw him over in To-ke-yo! I was well into my thirties before I knew that there was any other version. I'm familiar with the book and the movie, "If He Hollers, Let Him Go." But, not knowing any other version of Eenie Meenie, I lived half my life without making the connection. -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 4:02 PM -0500 1/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >> A version of this is the only instance of anti-Semitism that I recall >> from my childhood, ca.1940-1950. >> >> Acka-backa soda cracker >> If your daddy chews tobacco >> He's a dirty Jew >> One two three means >> "Out goes you" >> >> The first person out was "it" in a game of hide-and-(go-)seek or >> whatever. > > Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In > our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > (If you got away with it, you stretched it out with fillers until you > picked whoever you wanted to pick in the first place, but the first > three lines were invariant.) > > But at some point I learned, to my horror, that this was bowdlerized > from the original, which was not based on the t-word. > > And I see the cultural memory persists-- > > http://www.promoguy.net/archives/001874.php > March 05, 2003 > Toe Jam > > From the ArcaMax news service: > An April 15 trial date has been set by a Kansas City, Mo., judge for > a lawsuit against Southwest Airlines over a flight attendant who was > heard on the plane's intercom system saying, "Eenie, meenie, minie, > moe, pick a seat, we've got to go." Flight attendant Jennifer Cundiff > was boarding passengers, the Kansas City Star reports, when she > recited the ditty that has, in the past, been used as a racial slur > against blacks. Sisters Grace Fuller and Louise Sawyer sued, claiming > the airline was guilty of racism because the saying -- the original > version goes: Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, catch a n----- by the tow > (sic) -- was aimed at them. > > larry > From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 04:39:39 2005 From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800 Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell New York Message-ID: Hello Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? My father, who grew up in NY and Philly, taught them to me back in the 50s. He had known them as a boy in the 20s. While watching a movie, Cinema Paradiso, they cut to a scene of chickens roosting in the back of an abandoned car. This somehow triggered the memory of the "Chicago rhyme". Teaching geography at the time, I was inspired to write what came to be called a "riddle rhyme' for each of the 50 states. These are riddles in verse wherein the name of the city or state is disquised amidst extraneous sounds, and must be deciphered through a listening process in which the appropriate name literally arises and finds its resonance. They are most effective when done orally, with no visual clues. So after you have guessed them you can administer them to others, a very interesting process in and of itself in terms of thought process and group dynamic. It is hard to be too competitive, for eg., when guessing riddle-rhymes. Also avoid looking up the answers in frustration. Rather take a second pass at them and note that you had halfway gotten them the first time. I have now also completed 100 riddle rhymes on the capitals and the major cities. This will be published this year as CHICKEN IN THE CAR AND THE CAR CAN'T GO. A KNIFE AND A FORK AND A BOTTLE AND A CORK is available in an xerox edition for $9.95 PPd from LemonTree Press Box 841 Santa Cruz CA 95060 send check; or email postmaster at lmntreepress.com I hope to have both books out within the year in regular editions, whenever I can find out where these rhymes originated. Knife and a Fork will have a more modern title PAPER OR PLASTIC THEY ALWAYS ASK YA (Alaska) Howard Schrager, Santa Cruz CA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 29 05:07:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:07:35 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Here in southern La. was our version. (By the way I had no idea what a > = > Jew was until I was in high school. ) > Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > Catch a N------ by the toe > I f he hollers make him pay > Fifty Dollars every day. > My mother cut her finger, what color was the blood? (Answer:red) > R--E--D-- spell red and=20 > Out you go with a dirty dishrag in your mouth. > > Anyone remember this one? I'm not sure about the words.. > Inka Dink > A Bottle of Ink > You sure do stink. The version that we had (in St. Louis, though I'm a native of Marshall, Texas, about 35 mi. west of "Sreepote") was: Ink-a stink-a Bottle of ink-a Oh, how you do stink! It ain't none of me It ain't none of you It ain't nobody but Y-O-U! -Wilson Gray > > Then there was ... > A tisket a Tasket=20 > A green and Yellow Basket > I wrote a letter to my mom > And on the way I dropped it. > A little N----- picked it up and=20 > Put it in his pocket. > From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 05:28:10 2005 From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:28:10 -0800 Subject: Riddle Rhymes Message-ID: Sorry I forgot to include the sample riddle rhymes I spoke of earlier. Here they are with answers below: STATES 1) Glue can connect and a scissors can cut...That's how you spell... 2) Noah built the ark with a hammer and saw...That's how you spell... 3)Ten cents tax to step on the bus...THYS... 4) How to swim? Why to ski?...THYS... 5) Whiskey mixed in the cotton gin...THYS... CITIES 6)Sometimes I wonder why am I me...THYS 7)Many jobs have many applicants...THYS... 8) Just the kind of bog not to get lost in...THYS... 9) Don't just break it, destroy iy!...THYS... 10)The first of the month's when I feel the wealthiest...THYS... ans. 1)ct 2)ak 3)tx 4)hi 5)wi 6)miami 7)minneapolis 8)bos 9)det 10)phila Happy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 29 07:01:20 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:01:20 -0600 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: Another bowdlerized one from youth -- The grade school version of the Daniel Boone Show theme song went: Daniel Boone was a man, Yes a big man, But the bear was bigger so he ran like a n----- up a tree which cleaned up to: ran like a rabbit up a tree. I went to a neighborhood elementary school which was essentially all caucasian until after I reached third grade, at which time court-ordered busing integrated it. It was that year that I learned that the n-word was not just a word that you were careful who you said it around, but was a word that would get your ass whooped. A lot of rhymes got "cleaned up" that year. > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > But at some point I learned, to my horror, that this was bowdlerized > from the original, which was not based on the t-word. > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Jan 29 07:49:40 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:49:40 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: For a bit more-recent kidlore: Not long after Michael Jackson suffered burns during the shooting of a Pepsi Cola commercial (when was that?), a bunch of third-graders in Bernardston, MA taught me the following, which had 'made the rounds' in a very short time: I pledge allegiance to the flag, Michael Jackson is a fag, Pepsi Cola burnt him up, Now he's drinking Seven Up. Seven Up goes out of style, He'll be drinking Coke awhile. Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 29 08:27:59 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:27:59 -0500 Subject: netroots Message-ID: "Netroots", analogized from "grassroots", gained popularity among Deaniacs in 2003-04, but the term is still going strong in the lefty blogosphere. Recent cites refer to the camaign for DNC chair (one candidate, Simon Rosenberg, is touting his "netroots" experience) and mobilization against Bush's Social Security plan. As always, Technorati is useful for tracking blog usage: . 1993 "Reply to Cliff Figallo" in _bit.listserv.words-l_ 15 Jan., Too bad there's no netroots organization that can demand more than keyboard accountability from those who claim to be acting on behalf of the "greater good" when they do things like this. 1995 _Socialism and Democracy_ Spring 151 (Proquest) New York based Paper Tiger Television ... has pioneered work on progressive uses of the electronic media through its two programs, "Staking a Claim in Cyberspace" and "Netroots: Cultivating Digital Park." 2003 _Dean Nation_ (weblog) 10 Mar., The challenge is for all of us Meetup.com enthusiasts and netroots fans of Dean to raise a million dollars for Dean's candidacy by March 31st. http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003/03/take-million-dollar-meetup-challenge.html 2003 _Daily Kos_ (weblog) 1 Jul., The Dean campaign has shown the power of the Netroots to raise money. ... It'll also help the grass- and netroots choose candidates that are not afraid to be Democrats. http://www.dailykos.net/archives/003234.html 2003 _CommonDreams.org_ 11 Aug., What we have in Dean is a man who can articulate liberal positions intelligently, passionately, and commandingly, and who has the grassroots/netroots support and an appeal to diverse constituencies that will allow him to defeat George Bush. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0811-09.htm 2003 _Boston Globe_ 9 Oct. A41 (Nexis) "You have a team of consultants completely at odds with what a real net-roots effort is all about," Moulitsas said. 2004 _Blog for America_ (weblog) 18 Oct., This surge of net roots support persuaded the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee to get behind Ginny, and her contest is now one of the DCCC's top targeted races. http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/005355.html 2004 _East Bay Express_ 15 Dec. (Proquest) Mastery of the mechanisms of netroots mobilization is a different thing from mastery of the methods. 2005 _Swing State Project_ (weblog) 18 Jan., A revolutionary website that gives the netroots the tools necessary to protect the integrity of social security. http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/01/there_is_no_cri_1.html 2005 _Salon.com_ 28 Jan., "What you get with me is a proven track record of winning in red states and the proven history of working with grass roots and 'net roots,'" Rosenberg said. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/01/28/dnc/ --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 11:40:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:40:01 EST Subject: Cross-Word Puzzle (1912) Message-ID: I'm about to add "cross-word puzzle" to my "Big Apple" web page. As everyone knows, the crossword puzzle first appeared in the New York World on December 21, 1913. OED's first cite of "cross-word puzzle" is December 1914. ... I found "cross word puzzle" in 1912. Maybe someone from the National Puzzlers' League can help solve this one? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lincoln Daily News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2jFr1uBtmIzdyKynFfWkvsOG3aI9wJZLu0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, March 26, 1912 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+cross+word+and+puzzle+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+cross+word+and+puzzle+AND) ...is it an enigma, nor as it a CROSS WORD PUZZLE although those who solve.....of state AND nation which governs her AND am a complete favorer of Recall AND.. ... Pg. 1, col. 3: The "Plat Form," as Mr. Ross designates it, is not a rebus, neither is it an enigma, nor is it a cross word puzzle--although those who solve such things might be able to read it with considerable more alacrity than those who do not. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("cross-word" and "puzzle") ... 1. _Display Ad 2 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=277355432&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11069985 83&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 27, 1884. p. 3 (1 page) ... 2. _OUR PUZZLE DEPARTMENT. 1_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=277520312&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11069985 83&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 8, 1885. p. 6 (1 page) ... 3. _I " ''ooiuiiiittit^'''-- 'o-'"- ''-_ (http://proquest. umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=277545072&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP& TS=1106998583&clientId=65882) I EDmCfr BY MACK. : .. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 22, 1885. p. 6 (1 page) ... 4. _YOUNG FOLKS CORRESPONDENCE_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=532380202&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110699 8583&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Aug 1, 1897. p. A3 (1 page) ... 5. _Solution of Last Sunday's Puzzles._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=259587832&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1106998583&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 1, 1903. p. FP10 (1 page) ... 6. _Answer to Puzzle._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=254885372&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106998583&clie ntId=65882) BERNICE D. RANDALL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 24, 1904. p. A12 (1 page) ....\ 7. _Solution of Algebraical Picture Puzzle._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=255011832&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName= HNP&TS=1106998583&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 25, 1904. p. B8 (1 page) ... 8. _Comic 1 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=520467302&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106998583&cl ientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Sep 15, 1922. p. 8 (1 page) ... ... ... (Oxford English Dictionary) crossword, cross-word In full crossword puzzle. A puzzle in which a pattern of chequered squares has to be filled in from numbered clues with words which are written usu. horizontally and vertically, occas. diagonally. Also attrib. and Comb. 1914 N.Y. World 6 Dec. (‘Fun’) 7/2 Solution to last week's cross-word puzzle. ... ... ... _http://www.crosswordtournament.com/more/wynne.html_ (http://www.crosswordtournament.com/more/wynne.html) Crossword puzzles are said to be the most popular and widespread word game in the world, yet have a short history. The first crosswords appeared in England during the 19th century. They were of an elementary kind, apparently derived from the word square, a group of words arranged so the letters read alike vertically and horizontally, and printed in children's puzzle books and various periodicals. In the United States, however, the puzzle developed into a serious adult pastime. The first known published crossword puzzle was created by a journalist named Arthur Wynne from Liverpool, and he is usually credited as the inventor of the popular word game. December 21, 1913 was the date and it appeared in a Sunday newspaper, the New York World. Wynne's puzzle(see below) differed from today's crosswords in that it was diamond shaped and contained no internal black squares. During the early 1920's other newspapers picked up the newly discovered pastime and within a decade crossword puzzles were featured in almost all American newspapers. It was in this period crosswords began to assume their familiar form. Ten years after its rebirth in the States it crossed the Atlantic and re-conquered Europe. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 12:54:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:54:16 -0800 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Message-ID: The 1890s NYC version had "Little Johnny picked it up." Have never heard this one with the "N" word. In NYC in the '50s, I never heard "eenie meenie..." with it either. My grandmother used "kitten." When I heard my second-grade teacher using "tiger," I was confused and angry, as kids are when others mess up cultural heirlooms. In fact, neither grandparent ever used the "N" word so far as I know. When the word first came up - can't remember how or when - my grandmother warned me forcefully never to use it. JL Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here in southern La. was our version. (By the way I had no idea what a = Jew was until I was in high school. ) Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Catch a N------ by the toe I f he hollers make him pay Fifty Dollars every day. My mother cut her finger, what color was the blood? (Answer:red) R--E--D-- spell red and=20 Out you go with a dirty dishrag in your mouth. Anyone remember this one? I'm not sure about the words.. Inka Dink A Bottle of Ink You sure do stink. Then there was ... A tisket a Tasket=20 A green and Yellow Basket I wrote a letter to my mom And on the way I dropped it. A little N----- picked it up and=20 Put it in his pocket. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 12:57:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:57:34 -0800 Subject: Irish Gaelic Message-ID: Right on, Wilson. I just feel that some who should know better tend to throw the baby out with the bath water. There does seem to be a lot of bath water, however. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Irish Gaelic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well argued, Jonathan, and I agree with you. I'm assuming that Prof. Cassidy is truly fluent in at least literary Irish Gaelic and one dialect. But I can only assume that. If he would say something like, the word "teas" is pronounced [however] and means "whatever" in literary Irish Gaelic (Society for the Resuscitation of Irish, Dictionary1999, p.1033). However, in dialect D, spoken in area A, from which a large portion of the Irish-American population originated, this string has the pronunciation "chazz" or even "jazz" and has the meaning, "a type of syncopated music" (O'Whoever, Irish Folksong, 1901, p.137). Or, failing that, something like, when I was a kid in Brooklyn, my grandparents used to sing a particular song. When I asked about it, they said whatever. I could go for that. But not Irish seol, pronounced shell and pisce, vocative (a) phisce, pronounced fish: English shellfish. I have to ask, are both words from the same dialect? And what dialect of Irish is that, so that we can know that what you say are the pronunciation and the meaning are correct? Is your spelling the traditional one or the modern one? What is the approximate date? etc. etc. Somewhere in my junkyardish office cum library, I have a pamphlet that shows that the use of spoken Irish in what is now the United States was not unknown in the 18th century. And there's the Irish signatory of the Declaration, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, whose brother, John, a Jesuit, was the first American Catholic bishop. Every word of Cassidy's etymologies could be correct, but he doesn't provide enough info for people not well-trained in Irish to be able to tell. -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Simple assertion does get us nowhere. If - and I speak as a > celtolinguistic moron - the word is phonetically, semantically, and > socially plausible as an English etymon, it's another semifinalist > with some plausibility. > > Ideally, we'd like to have an unmistakable citational antedating with > the Irish spelling or an approximation of it in an Irish context > saying something like "playin' 'at divil's ceas music de whole night > t'rough!" That kind of citation shows up in the OED frequently, > though not, obviously, in this case. > > Jerry Cohen has seriously called into question the idea that "jazz" > was applied to the music by people, presumably in or around N.O., who > were familiar with the sexual sense of the word. The fact *seems* to > be that "jazz music" was applied first to "Livery Stable Blues" and > similar pieces as played by "The Original New Orelans Jazz Band" in > Chicago. Of course other N.O. musicians were playing even bluesier > music at the same time, but my limited research seems to support > Jerry's conclusion that this early generation of black "jazzmen" went > right on calling their music "ragtime," which was certainly one of its > prime ingredients. In those long dead days before ubiquitous > mass-media publicity, there was no pressing need to "repackage" the > music as something brand-new. It was just extra-bluesy ragtime with a > few other ideas, and guys like Jelly Roll had been playing it for > years. By 1918, its newest aficionados were routinely calling it > "jazz." > > If a pre-1912 cite ever appears, esp. outside of San Francisco, the > entire linguistic picture might very well change. The musical picture > hasn't and wouldn't. > Jazz < ceas ? I don't know. At least there is some plausibility > there. For the moment. > > If Cassidy is in error about the Irish prununciation or meaning, > well, that's another story. > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish > Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it > formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a > professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of > Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. > > E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a > citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English > word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has > the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" > of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And > if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. > Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to > move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of > "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" > [il,I]? > > I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as > [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely > stating that that's what happened, surely? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 13:14:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:14:50 -0800 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: I grew up in what has long been a very liberal area of New York. Back in the fifties, they were Dems and "liberal Republicans" (yes, there once were such things: fiscally conservative, cautiously liberal on most social issues, tough but not apocalyptic on the Commies, strong on Civil Rights - which in those days often included the now sexist and forbidden word "brotherhood.") Maybe that's why I cannot recall ever hearing a kids' rhyme of any kind with the "N" word or any other ethnic slur. Even today I read examples of proto-racist kidlore here and elsewhere with a feeling of what I can only describe as "weirdness." The racial allusions seem somehow obsessive, or something. Must just be me. Carry on. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 14:55:32 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:55:32 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050129050009.98282B286B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "Mullins, Bill" sez: >>> I get the impression that some folks on this list find Daniel's posts repetitious, if not tiresome. It's pretty easy to hit the delete key. <<< Not if you subscribe to the digest and you want to read what anyone else has to say, as I do. (The continual flashing of incoming posts is too distracting.) The same applies to those who top-post a two-line -- or two-paragraph -- reply to a hundred-line post, which they are too lazy to delete or edit down. mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 15:03:27 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:03:27 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050129050009.98282B286B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Karen Ellis wrote: >>> "Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect." - Chief Seattle "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Mark Twain <<< Indeed. The stirring speech attributed to Chief Seattle by a screenwriter over a century after his death will never be detached from his name. See http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm . -- Mark A. Mandel From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 15:15:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:15:44 -0800 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Damned good speech, too! JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karen Ellis wrote: >>> "Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect." - Chief Seattle "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Mark Twain <<< Indeed. The stirring speech attributed to Chief Seattle by a screenwriter over a century after his death will never be detached from his name. See http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm . -- Mark A. Mandel --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 15:39:31 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:39:31 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050129050009.98282B286B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>> Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go My mother said to pick this very one Y-O-U spells you <<< NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". mark by hand From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 15:57:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:57:05 -0800 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: Yes, Mark. My grandmother's version in full was, Eenie, meenie, miney, mo, Catch a kitten by the toe. If he hollers, let him go. Eenie, meenie, miney, mo! At "mo!" you'd point to the child who was to be it. Your own version is the way the other kids did it, with "tiger" and "Out goes Y-O-U !" One could cheat by saying "You!" after the spelling and pointing to the next victim. Observe the absence of subject-verb agreement in the chants of these preliterate people. "Eenie, meenie, meenie, tekel upharsin, Out goes Neboo!" ---Daniel. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurence Horn said: >>> Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go My mother said to pick this very one Y-O-U spells you <<< NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". mark by hand __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 29 16:27:34 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:27:34 -0600 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: A few thoughts on the recent "jazz" discussion: 1) A bibliographic reference is my compilation (with due credit given) "_Jazz_ Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #2" in: Comments on Etymology, vol. 32, no 4-5 (Dec.2002/Jan. 2003, 91 pp. --- Draft #3 will appear sometime in the next 12 months incorporating the later disicussion. 2) In 1913, "jazz" was heralded as a new word which had just entered the language, and the first attestations were in connection with baseball. There were none at this time--none at all--in reference to music. As for the sexual use of "jazz," this must have come some time after 1913. Even if the worldly-wise sports writers of the San Francisco Bulletin were unaware of the sexual meaning of "jazz" (had it existed then), someone would have certainly tapped them on the shoulder to clue them in. The term could not have been used repeatedly as it was in the 1913 baseball columns if it had a sexual meaning at that time. 3) As for "jazz" referring to a type of music in New Orleans prior to 1913, there are no contemporary attestations of this--none, zip, nada. 4) Daniel Cassidy attaches importance to the term "jazz" being first used by Irishmen (Gleeson, Slattery); Slattery reportedly first heard it as an incantation in a crapshooting game he happened to witness. But Gleeson's Irish background had absolutely nothing to do with his acquiring and then using the term. And Slattery apparently didn't use the term in 1913 beyond telling Gleeson the story about the crapshooting game. Also, the crapshooters might have been Irish, but they just as plausibly could have been African-American. 5) The etymology of "jazz" is still open for discussion. I.e., if the crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting "jazz" (in: "Come on, the old jazz!") might plausibly derive from now obsolete "jasm" (energy, force). The incantation would then have meant roughly "May the force be with me." 6) So bringing Irish into the picture adds nothing to what we already know and is based on no evidence other than a possible similarity in sound (how close?) between "jazz" and Irish teas (sp.?). 7) A remaining point of uncertainty concerns the very few attestations of "jazz" in 1912, so named by Portland pitcher Ben Henderson because (according to Henderson), his jazz pitch "wobbles". My guess (and it is only that) is that it is somehow connected with "jag" (intoxication; "jags" in plural?). Now, if some similar-sounding Irish word meaning "wobble" could be found, maybe an Irish connection would be worthy of further consideration here. Gerald Cohen From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 16:43:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:43:43 -0800 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Jerry, I agree that no SF Bulletin editor in his right mind would have printed "jazz" in 1912 if he had the slightest suspicion that the word was indecent. And no reporter would have expected him to. Moreover, no group would have openly called itself a "Jazz Band" in 1916, if they knew better. However, if the sexual verb had been sufficiently regional, they mightn't have known of it. Ordinarily one could dismiss allegations of an earlier sexual meaning, but these seem to me to be so credible as to require consideration. Jerry's research on this topic has been exemplary as always, and a strict application of Occam's Razor would say the onus is now on others to prove him wrong. Yet we have (comparatively) so little data about American sexual slang in the 19th C. that I think any solid conclusion would be hasty even now. JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Re: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A few thoughts on the recent "jazz" discussion: 1) A bibliographic reference is my compilation (with due credit given) "_Jazz_ Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #2" in: Comments on Etymology, vol. 32, no 4-5 (Dec.2002/Jan. 2003, 91 pp. --- Draft #3 will appear sometime in the next 12 months incorporating the later disicussion. 2) In 1913, "jazz" was heralded as a new word which had just entered the language, and the first attestations were in connection with baseball. There were none at this time--none at all--in reference to music. As for the sexual use of "jazz," this must have come some time after 1913. Even if the worldly-wise sports writers of the San Francisco Bulletin were unaware of the sexual meaning of "jazz" (had it existed then), someone would have certainly tapped them on the shoulder to clue them in. The term could not have been used repeatedly as it was in the 1913 baseball columns if it had a sexual meaning at that time. 3) As for "jazz" referring to a type of music in New Orleans prior to 1913, there are no contemporary attestations of this--none, zip, nada. 4) Daniel Cassidy attaches importance to the term "jazz" being first used by Irishmen (Gleeson, Slattery); Slattery reportedly first heard it as an incantation in a crapshooting game he happened to witness. But Gleeson's Irish background had absolutely nothing to do with his acquiring and then using the term. And Slattery apparently didn't use the term in 1913 beyond telling Gleeson the story about the crapshooting game. Also, the crapshooters might have been Irish, but they just as plausibly could have been African-American. 5) The etymology of "jazz" is still open for discussion. I.e., if the crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting "jazz" (in: "Come on, the old jazz!") might plausibly derive from now obsolete "jasm" (energy, force). The incantation would then have meant roughly "May the force be with me." 6) So bringing Irish into the picture adds nothing to what we already know and is based on no evidence other than a possible similarity in sound (how close?) between "jazz" and Irish teas (sp.?). 7) A remaining point of uncertainty concerns the very few attestations of "jazz" in 1912, so named by Portland pitcher Ben Henderson because (according to Henderson), his jazz pitch "wobbles". My guess (and it is only that) is that it is somehow connected with "jag" (intoxication; "jags" in plural?). Now, if some similar-sounding Irish word meaning "wobble" could be found, maybe an Irish connection would be worthy of further consideration here. Gerald Cohen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jan 29 17:23:25 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:23:25 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: <001001c505b6$2eac2eb0$6cc23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: The substitution of "tiger" for "nigger" in eeny-meeny came long after my childhood. While we were forbidden to use "nigger" in general, that is, in expressions such as "nigger toes" for Brazil nuts or "niggerheads" for coneflowers, or "nigger in the woodpile" for the obscure bad factor, I don't remember that eeny-meeny was out-of-bounds. I think this was because our parents made a distinction between culturally-embedded usage and voluntary use. They would look askance at bowdlerization, but would avoid the incivility of gratuitous insult. Blackface was instrinsically bad, so_ Amos & Andy_ was out, nevermind that it was a staple in black households with radios. We employed a black daily maid, but, oddly, this was a mark of liberal enlightenment in that place & time: all the other households on the street had white maids only. Sorry, I seem to be wandering off the track here. A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 17:43:14 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:43:14 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:40 PM, I wrote: > At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very > far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than > Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime > (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still > suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto > Hobson's... OED online has no entry for "Hobbesian choice". The first cite for "Hobson's choice" is from 1660: ----- S. FISHER Rusticks Alarm Wks. (1679) 128 If in this Case there be no other (as the Proverb is) then Hobson's choice..which is, chuse whether you will have this or none. ------ arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 18:34:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:34:33 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice Message-ID: Here's my third contribution to "you/thou" studies. The OED's quote appears in an earlier form in the first printing: 1660 S. Fisher Rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis 88: He must needs have the worst or neither: such choice (as the Proverb is) is no other then Hobson's choice, which is, chuse whether thou wilt have this or none. Something big was evidently shakin' between 1660 and '79. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Hobbesian choice ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:40 PM, I wrote: > At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very > far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than > Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime > (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still > suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto > Hobson's... OED online has no entry for "Hobbesian choice". The first cite for "Hobson's choice" is from 1660: ----- S. FISHER Rusticks Alarm Wks. (1679) 128 If in this Case there be no other (as the Proverb is) then Hobson's choice..which is, chuse whether you will have this or none. ------ arnold __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Jan 29 19:11:22 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:11:22 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: In response to Matt's observation, I should make clear that it is not the case the the phenomenon which I am observing is not in speakers who have a merger or near-merger of the vowels in cot/caught, don/dawn, hod/hawed, cod/cawed. They vowels are distinct. What I see (and have seen in some speakers who are moving toward merger) is the loss of the upglide before the voiceless alveolar. Upon further investigation, I also see the loss before the alveolar nasal and also the voiceless labio-dental (f). But these same speakers, who are not merging, have a strong upglide before voiced alveolar stops and velar stops. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Jan 29 19:18:03 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:18:03 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: Please accept my apologies for my last post. It is riddled with grammatical solecisms. There shouldn't be so many negative and complex constructions in the first sentence. What is see is the (conditioned) loss of the glide in speakers who are not merging, in 3 contexts: alveolar nasal, voicless alveolar stop, and voiceless labio-dental fricative. My other observation is that it is the presence of the upglide that distinguishes the two vowels in speakers who have an apparent merger. I hope to do some commutation experiments, using natural and re-synthesized vowels ,to see how sensitive speakers are to the glide presence/absence in distinguishing nearly-merged vowels. The next hypothesis to examine is whether the gradual (or abrupt loss) of the glide is a factor in the mechanism of the merger, where the merger is occurring. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From AAllan at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 19:34:02 2005 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:34:02 EST Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" Message-ID: I noted this expression in the comment of a Boston doctor on NPR's Morning Edition January 19, meaning that a bright idea came along. But lights going off (as opposed to on) doesn't make sense to me. Found half a dozen other examples by googling, including: <<"The loss of speech, the melancholy, the behavioral problems that go along with mercury toxicity were identical to what Will was exhibiting and that's when I guess the light bulb went off," Redwood said. The light bulbs began to go off in the minds of other Georgia parents, as well, whose children were also diagnosed with autism.>> There are almost 14,000 Google hits for "light bulb went off," like this one: <> I'm old enough to think this metaphor comes from flash bulbs going off. But there are few Google examples of that. - Allan Metcalf From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 29 20:42:12 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:42:12 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas--(sexual origin of "jazz"?) Message-ID: [Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 29]: [...]However, if the sexual verb had been sufficiently regional, they mightn't have known of it. Ordinarily one could dismiss allegations of an earlier sexual meaning, but these seem to me to be so credible as to require consideration. [...] ************* I'd suggest caution in describing as "credible" any of the allegations about an earlier (say, pre-1913) sexual meaning of "jazz." I haven't yet seen even one account which fits that bill. Gerald Cohen P.S. Btw, note Dick Holbrook's comment (Our Word Jazz. in: Storyville, 1973-1974, 46-58; p. 52): "Gleeson has also repeatedly and flatly insisted that he never heard the word jazz used in a sex sense at that time [1914]--though he was no stranger to gutter slang." From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 21:01:25 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:01:25 -0500 Subject: make do --> make due Message-ID: extracted from a personal e-mail letter >>> We will have to reschedule our weekend visit. My sister just called to say she is making her semi annual visit the 15-20 [...] My apologies for the screw up. My sister is famous for last minute appearances but since she comes so rarely we make due and I need to capture her for some serious discussions[...] <<< -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 20:58:38 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:58:38 EST Subject: teas, teasi/ocht (heat, passion) Message-ID: Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104) Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 02:43 pm: (http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/board-profile.pl?action=editpost&postid=9378&page= 12465/11811) (http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=12465&post=9379#) ____________________________________ Go raibh maith agat a Lochlainn/Larry. Feicfimid tuilleadh beag eile ce/n passion go di/reach ata/ uaithi anseo. GRMA - thanks for getting back so quickly Lauren. Looking at what you received, below are words for passion. teasai/ocht (strong emotion, be it sexual, intellectual and such in it's own context) From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:12:45 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:12:45 EST Subject: {ronunciation of slender D in irish Message-ID: Thanks so much for the feedback. It is very helpful. Here is the main rule taught in Irish language classes in Ireland and USA on the slender T. The rule of Tir. The Irish pronunciation rule of the slender T Or the rule of Tir. Tir, land country can be pronounced correctly Cheer Tear Jeer. Every native speaker would understand no matter which I said. Posted by Padraig - a native speaker -- on Daltai Irish language discussion group Jan 28, 2005. I am not a native speaker. Though my grandparents were native speakers of Donegal dialect who emigrated to Greenpoint, Brooklyn.. They pronounced Tir Jeer. And Teas Jass. Thanks so much. Go raibh maith agat. Teas, pron. jass or chass or t'ass. Dan Cassidy From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:41:35 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:41:35 EST Subject: pronunciation of slender T in Irish Message-ID: Thanks so much for the feedback. It is very helpful. Here is the main rule taught in Irish language classes in Ireland and USA on the slender T. The rule of Tir. The Irish pronunciation rule of the slender T Or the rule of Tir. Tir, land country can be pronounced correctly Cheer Tear Jeer. Every native speaker would understand no matter which I said. Posted by Padraig - a native speaker -- on Daltai Irish language discussion group Jan 28, 2005. I am not a native speaker. Though my grandparents were native speakers of Donegal dialect who emigrated to Greenpoint, Brooklyn.. They pronounced Tir Jeer. And Teas Jass. Thanks so much. Go raibh maith agat. Teas, pron. jass or chass or t'ass. Dan Cassidy From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:53:57 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:53:57 EST Subject: German Irish language scholar Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" Message-ID: << Deir Quiggin fa dtaobh de t´: 'I have not noticed any tendency in Donegal for t´ to pass into t´§ as in parts of Connaught, Manx and Scotch Gaelic. The contact for t´ is however broken very gradually and a glide resembling § is heard.' Ni/ thig an cur si/os seo le Gaedhilge Theilinn. Níthear...t´, d´ + sleamhna/n...nó t´§...affricata cheart...i dTeilionn, aig o/g agus aig aosta.>> --Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" The southern Donegal dialect merges with Connaught and a glide resembling § is heard. Daniel Cassidy From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:50:28 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:50:28 EST Subject: Slender T and D in Irish - notes on affricates, Eamonn Mhac an Fhailigh Message-ID: Notes on affricates: The slender T and D << d´, t´ -- These Erris affricates are not very different from [those in] English...‘jig’ and...‘cheer’ respectively. There does seem however to be a difference, which is this: for t§ as in English ‘cheer’ the tip of the tongue is up, and there is also some protrusion of the lips. For t§ as in Erris Irish t§it§ tuit, t§ax teach [i.e. t´it´, t´ax], the tip of the tongue is down against the lower teeth and the lips are spread. For the Erris Irish affricates, then, it may be said that the primary articulation is palatal, the secondary alveolar. The front of the tongue is raised to make a closure at the junction of the teeth-ridge and hard palate, and is then slowly released, causing friction in a narrowing between tongue and teeth-ridge, while the tip of the tongue remains against the lower front teeth... Plosive d´ replaces affricate d´ following §. When it occurs in utterance final position it is unvoiced. Examples--§d´u:ru: stiu/rughadh, ba§d´u: baisteadh, e:§d´@xd e/isteacht, ma:§d´ir´ maighistir, k´e§d´ ceist. In sandhi plosive d´ and t´ regularly replace the corresponding affricates d´ and t´ respectively, preceding homorganic affricates, laterals, and nasals. For example in @ bant´ d´il´i§g´ _ag baint duilisg_ the t´ of bant´ is an unexploded plosive while the d´ of d´il´i§g´ is an affricate. Similarly in @ xid´ d´el´ign´i: _a chuid deilgni/_ the d´ of xid´ is an unexploded plosive and the d´ in d´el´ign´i: is an affricate.>> --Eamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, “The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo” From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 22:09:26 2005 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:09:26 EST Subject: The January issue of The Vocabula Review is now online Message-ID: The January issue of The Vocabula Review is now online at www.vocabula.com Only the opening paragraphs of each feature are shown in this announcement. Breve New World: Thoughts on an Emergent Pidgin Kerr Houston Late last summer, as much of America pondered swift boats and WMDs, a group of bloggers and iced coffee aficionados focused instead upon an improbable but momentarily fascinating conjunction of neologism, corporate identity, and small-town law governing the entry of cattle into restaurants. In June of 2004, Dairy Queen had rolled out its MooLatte, a frozen coffee beverage that came in several different varieties. Shortly after, Slate's Timothy Noah attracted notice with a post arguing that the drink's name was uncomfortably close to the word mulatto and its potentially racist overtones. The Houston Press soon got into the act, with a phone conversation with a Dairy Queen spokesman, in which they suggested that five more flavors be added, which would allow the firm to market an Octaroonie. But when the spokesman responded, apparently in earnest, that "that's actually a pretty good idea," some observers wondered if the company was playing with a poker face — a feeling compounded when, in August, Dairy Queen subsequently announced that any customer bringing a cow to a participating restaurant would receive a free MooLatte. Over the next few months, the Web hummed with reports of ordinances governing the passage of livestock into eateries, and with opinions regarding the appropriateness of the product name (including a further posting by Noah that pointed to a Senegalese film entitled Moolaade, which was concerned with female genital mutilation). More ... The Mermaid Heinz Insu Fenkl Recently, as I was waiting in line at the local Starbucks, I overheard two customers arguing about the Starbucks' logo. Is it a siren or a mermaid? The current logo doesn't give enough visual information, as one customer pointed out, but the original logo was a creature with the upper half of a woman and a split fish tail — a mermaid by his reckoning. The other customer pointed out that Starbucks refers to the image as a siren. Could they be wrong about their own corporate logo? The argument was lively enough to perk the interest of other customers, and soon various bits of interesting information came up, including reference to an online debate about the nature of mermaid sexuality and, specifically, regarding the reproductive organs of Disney's Ariel. I, myself, did not join in this debate but merely kept within earshot, considering the price of a latte well worth this synchronistic field research. More ... Blog, Bloggers, Blague Joseph Epstein No big surprise, I suppose, in Merriam-Webster's recent announcement that blog was the word most looked up on its Internet sites during the past year. Bloggers were much in the news; in fact, they often turned the direction of the news, and made a fair amount of news on their own. Bloggers caught up with many campaign lies during the past presidential election; by catching him out in shoddy journalistic practice, they cost Dan Rather an honorable departure from a long career. More ... Foggy Blogs David Isaacson Bloggers are to old-fashioned journal writers as joggers to runners: they are narcissists rather than genuine self-lovers. The word blog means a personal journal that is made available on the Web. In other words, another example in our tell-all, confessional culture of information we seldom need and ought not to want. True, some bloggers not only have an axe to grind but priceless information to publish we'd not otherwise have. Imagine if I. F. Stone's "Weekly" were a daily blog! And Joseph Epstein is right: a few dedicated fact-checkers helped to bring a hasty end to Dan Rather's career. But with some exceptions, bloggers pretend to be "sharing" their private, and sometimes even their intimate thoughts with a few privileged friends. They are the early twenty-first-century equivalent of that remarkable moment in Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest when Earnest, noticing Cicely Cardew writing in her diary, asks "What is that?" and she replies, "Oh, this is simply a very young girl's record of her own thoughts and impressions, and consequently meant for publication." More ... A Stylish Inauguration Speech Richard Lederer More than four decades ago, on January 20, 1961, thousands of visitors converged on Washington, D.C., for the inauguration of our thirty-fifth president, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. A blizzard had struck the eastern seaboard that day. The streets of the capital were clogged with snow and stranded automobiles, but the inaugural ceremony went on, and a new president delivered one of the most memorable addresses in American history. More ... Two Poems Melodica The guests arrive, their coats are hung. They linger at the entrance praising the fixtures and the paint. The hostess peals with pleasantries and laughter. She seats them (after showing the home) to Mozart, and a meal: More ... The Elder Statesman English Romantic Poets and ... Hollywood? Clark Elder Morrow I am always amazed at how well women can remember the earliest incidents of their youth. I'm lucky if I can recall a single incident from kindergarten, yet my wife and my sister tell me that they remember much of their third and fourth years on earth. No doubt a clear conscience makes for a limpid memory. More ... The Critical Reader Key Words of Our Times: Curling up with a Good Dimension on a Rainy Day Mark Halpern Albert Einstein cannot be held responsible for the misuse made of some of his ideas and utterances. It's not his fault that many people think that the General Theory of Relativity, his revolutionary concept of how gravity shapes space, somehow means that nothing is really true since everything is really relative to ... well, something. Nor is it his fault that many people think that there is a fourth dimension that, if they keep their eyes wide open, they will be able to spot someday before it can get away. Modern physicists, however, are largely responsible for a kind of confusion that is widespread among the general, nonscientific population, and that originated with Einstein's great discoveries. That is the notion that science has discovered a fourth, fifth, or even an eleventh dimension that you can see only if you have a PhD in physics. This misconception is a serious one because it seems to confirm the nonscientists' gloomy feeling that what scientists are talking about is utterly beyond them, and that it's hopeless to try to understand anything they say — not the frame of mind that we want an enlightened citizenry to be in. More ... Shibboleths Frisking the Governor's Daughter: On Puns John Kilgore There was this fabulous chicken, unlike any other. Her motion was so fluid, so swift, people said she was sheer poultry in motion. Humblest of tropes, the paronomasia — "pun" to its siblings and golf buddies — typically earns not an appreciative chuckle but a groan of pain. It can inspire Bronx cheers or mock insults, like John Dennis's declaration that "The man who would make so vile a pun would not scruple to pick a pocket," an upside-down compliment that seems, nonetheless, founded in real annoyance. Clearly we think the punster has somehow cheated, though in a way merely foolish and petty, childish perhaps but not evil. What could lie at the root of this feeling? The answer, I think, has to do with the basic nature of listening: with the mental gymnastics we continually perform, without quite knowing it, in order to understand even the simplest phrase. Unjustly despised, the pun turns out to be surprisingly profound, not a silly game with language but part of its fundamental nature. More ... Postcards from Babel Turtles All the Way Down Amalia Gnanadesikan My spam was unusually entertaining the other day. Unlike most, it offered me not health, wealth, or satisfaction, but merely enlightenment and information. It came not from Nigeria but from Turkey. Among other things, it claimed that Turkish is the world's most ancient language, and that whole families of other languages were artificially created by making anagrams out of ancient Turkish words. The similarity of the French expression vis-à-vis to Turkish yüz yüze (both meaning "face-to-face") is supposedly evidence of French being but a camouflaged derivative of Turkish. More ... Bethumped with Words Four Northern Words Flenched Bill Casselman Let us take up the whaler's flenching knife and slice away the circumambient lexical blubber from four stout words of the north. Here is a setting of four gelid gems for a winter night's perusal. One gives warmth; one gives taste; one spits in the arrogant eye of the OED, and one brings madness near. More ... Please renew my soul. — John Maybury I have just renewed via Amazon. Will try to talk up your site to my contacts. I think it's well worth the reasonable subscription rate. — Rick Horgan I have stolen a Vocabula subscription. How 'bout that? I just renewed. ... You gotta admit it's a steal, and bound to be the best value I'll get for my hard-earned in '05. — David Murray-Smith I thought I had lost Vocabula! Help me connect anew! — Charles Hunter Vocabula is like nothing I’ve seen on the Internet. $9.95 is far too modest. ... I am overwhelmed by the wealth of resources available with this subscription, and all the helpful functionality of the site. — Tom McGlinn I have renewed my subscription. I can't imagine being without it. — Jenell Larson I can no longer imagine my life without TVR. — Ken Williams More good words The Vocabula Review, published each month since September 1999, is an online journal about the state of the English language. We invite you to submit articles. For more information, see Contributors' Guidelines. Copyright (c) 2004 Vocabula Communications Company. All rights reserved. The contents of The Vocabula Review are the copyright property of Vocabula Communications Company. Republication or redistribution of The Vocabula Review's contents on another website, in another publication, or to nonsubscribers is expressly prohibited without the prior written permission of The Vocabula Review. Copy policy: http://www.vocabula.com/popupads/VRCopyPolicy.asp Vocabula is a registered service mark of Vocabula Communications Company. The Vocabula Review is a registered service mark of Vocabula Communications Company. Grumbling About Grammar is a registered service mark of Vocabula Communications Company. Vocabula logo is a registered service mark of Vocabula Communications Company. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 22:40:44 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:40:44 -0800 Subject: make do --> make due In-Reply-To: <20050129155934.W55215@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > extracted from a personal e-mail letter > >>> > We will have to reschedule our weekend > visit. My sister just called to say she is making her semi annual > visit the > 15-20 > [...] My apologies for the screw up. My sister is famous for last > minute > appearances but since she comes so rarely we make due and I need to > capture > her for some serious discussions[...] > <<< ah, an old friend. my current file on this (about to be amended by mark's addition) goes: ----- make do > make due Edward Carpenter, “Two jurors got normal pay”, PADN 12/15/04, p. 4: Two San Mateo County public employees... were lucky enough to not miss a single paycheck [while serving on the Scott Peterson jury], while other jurors would have had to make due with with a $15 a day court stipend... thousands of Google examples: 01/26/03 - Posted from the Daily Record newsroom. Charities try to make due with less cash. ...Charities try to make due with less cash Colleges staying afloat ... www.dailyrecord.com/business/ forecast2003/012603-charities.html ...Cities trying to figure out how to make due with less by Tom Robertson, Minnesota Public Radio February 21, 2003 Larger view. Bemidji ... news.minnesota.publicradio.org/ features/2003/02/21_robertsont_lgacuts/ Cubans make due with limited assistive technology. Even with a more independent culture, Cuba's streets and lack of resources provides barriers. ... www.atnet.org/news/2003/feb03/020101.htm ----- arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 22:45:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:45:17 -0800 Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" Message-ID: Not old enough, Allan! Or not lowbrow enough! It has long, long been common practice for cartoonists to show a bulb lighting up in a thought balloon to represent a "bright" idea. I once saw these caqrtoon bulbs referred to specifically as "Mazda bulbs," but never bothered to probe why this brand was specified. The cartoonists may have gotten the idea from elsewhere - maybe even a lightbulb advertisement. JL AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: AAllan at AOL.COM Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I noted this expression in the comment of a Boston doctor on NPR's Morning Edition January 19, meaning that a bright idea came along. But lights going off (as opposed to on) doesn't make sense to me. Found half a dozen other examples by googling, including: <<"The loss of speech, the melancholy, the behavioral problems that go along with mercury toxicity were identical to what Will was exhibiting and that's when I guess the light bulb went off," Redwood said. The light bulbs began to go off in the minds of other Georgia parents, as well, whose children were also diagnosed with autism.>> There are almost 14,000 Google hits for "light bulb went off," like this one: > I'm old enough to think this metaphor comes from flash bulbs going off. But there are few Google examples of that. - Allan Metcalf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 22:51:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:51:38 -0800 Subject: {ronunciation of slender D in irish Message-ID: Can the well attested 19th C. "jasm" = "energy" be accounted for as part of this cluster? It is also logically possible that the adj. "jazzy" came first, if I read the Irish "teasai" correctly. Do I ? JL Daniel Cassidy wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Daniel Cassidy Subject: {ronunciation of slender D in irish ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks so much for the feedback. It is very helpful. Here is the main rule taught in Irish language classes in Ireland and USA on the slender T. The rule of Tir. The Irish pronunciation rule of the slender T Or the rule of Tir. Tir, land country can be pronounced correctly Cheer Tear Jeer. Every native speaker would understand no matter which I said. Posted by Padraig - a native speaker -- on Daltai Irish language discussion group Jan 28, 2005. I am not a native speaker. Though my grandparents were native speakers of Donegal dialect who emigrated to Greenpoint, Brooklyn.. They pronounced Tir Jeer. And Teas Jass. Thanks so much. Go raibh maith agat. Teas, pron. jass or chass or t'ass. Dan Cassidy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 22:58:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:58:29 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other. Anyone else notice this? I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." E pede Herculem, JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 22:59:31 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:59:31 -0800 Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" In-Reply-To: <9b.57f8bf93.2f2d3f2a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 11:34 AM, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > I noted this expression in the comment of a Boston doctor on NPR's > Morning > Edition January 19, meaning that a bright idea came along. But lights > going off > (as opposed to on) doesn't make sense to me. isn't this just the 'become active/activated' sense of "go off"? admittedly, for light bulbs we have two senses in conflict, but that's not so incredibly rare. arnold From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jan 29 22:42:50 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:42:50 -0500 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050129164343.93076.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >... I agree that no SF Bulletin editor in his right mind would have >printed "jazz" in 1912 if he had the slightest suspicion that the word was >indecent. But "the word is indecent" seems stronger than what would be implied by the pre-existence (even well-known) of "jazz" meaning "f*ck". Many verbs routinely mean exactly "f*ck" (among other meanings): even such basic ones as "do", "have", "know", "make". There is no shying away from these verbs in general. Other verbs may even have "f*ck" as a dominant or very likely meaning, without causing any avoidance of a homonymous noun: e.g., "bed", "prong", "pork". Suppose that ca. 1900 "jazz" was used casually like "fizz" and/or like "zig-zag" and/or like "jasm" -- and also widely used as a verb equivalent (in denotation) to the F-word. I think in this case "jazz" would have been printed freely, at least as long as it didn't appear as a transitive verb. By comparison, when I was young[er] (ca. 1960) it was common knowledge that (e.g.) "He was banging her" referred to sex and this sentence would not have appeared in the newspaper (AFAIK), but all sorts of other uses of "bang" were OK, even "He gets a bang out of her" for example. OTOH, the F-word itself has generally been treated as indecent in all applications, and I agree that "jazz" cannot have been such a word. But I think there are only a few such globally unacceptable words. -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 29 23:07:45 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:07:45 -0600 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter >Sent: Sat 1/29/2005 9:57 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > > One could cheat by saying "You!" after the spelling and pointing to the next victim. My remembrance is that cheating could be done with all of these (one potato, two potato was the other most common one). If the count didn't land on the "right" person at the end, the person counting would append: "My mo-ther said to pick [and the next word would be "you" if that brought forth the desired result, otherwise it would go on as ...] the ve-ry best one [could stop here] and that would be [or "is", which reduces the number of syllables by one] YOU [which could, as said above, be said as a word or spelled out]" Watching the person counting going through the mental gymnastics to force the desired outcome removed all semblance of randomness. I always preferred elimnations by "rock paper scissors", until somebody would throw in "dynamite", which beat rock and paper, but lost to scissors because they could cut the fuse. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 23:16:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:16:18 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse In-Reply-To: <20050129225829.59114.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" > threatening to oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? another old friend. i last wrote about it on Language Log in november: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001671.html arnold From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 23:43:36 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:43:36 EST Subject: Cut out the mick jazz (teas), Cassidy (last postl) Message-ID: A Chairde (My Friends): On the sexual aspects of teas and jazz, Teas (pron jass, chass, or t'ass) does mean ardor and passion. (See O’Donaill, p. 1221.) Teas gra/ means passion of love; teas cra/bhaidh means fervent devotion. So there may be something of a sexual connotation to teas or jazz. Though I do agree with G. Cohen that Irish American journalists would never use jazz (teas) in that way. I am not going to bore the list with all the jazz (teas, fervor, heat) about Irish Catholics and sexuality. But much of it is true. I know. I am an Irish Catholic. A related noun teasai/ocht, m. (gs. ~a) is a common word in Irish for passion, though it can also mean a hot temper and feverishness. It can also mean the passion of suffering. In my own Brooklyn Irish-Sicilian-Jewish family, sometimes the heat, ardor, or passion would be misplaced and someone might say, cut that jazz, or I don’ t wannna hear that jazz, Danny, meaning all that heat and ardor and passion. Finally, there were no Irish printing presses in Ireland until the late 19th century and no Irish language popular press, scholarly press, or publications. They had been banned by the Tudors in the 16th century and later under the Penal Laws in the 18th century. Though Protestant evangelicals in the Elizabethan period did devise a Gaelic typeface for Protestant religious texts only. So, ironically pre-1927 most of the best sources are in Ms. form from the 6th-11th CE. Interestingly, these Irish words of orality often play out in strings like jazz, pizzazz, fizz, fizzle, and sizzle. Orality and oral sources are important and often overlooked in all the jazz (teas, heat) over published first sources. But that’s an old debate and a lotta old teas (jass, passion), as most people know. Though, I do apologize if my Jazz (Teas, ardor, heat) gets on people’s noives (nerves.) But it ain’t all razzmatazz. Rois mo/rtas, A burst or blast of high spirits, exultation, pride. My posts all concern Irish and Scots Gaelic because that is the focus of my book projects. I might add there were people in my family who also spoke Yiddish and Sicilian. My Uncle Franky was a Brooklyn bookmaker and a shtarker and macher (a macher is a big shot, a shtarker is a tough guy.) His wife, my Aunt Margaret, was the daughter of Irish-speakers from the north of Ireland, but she kept a kosher house in the Bronx for the 60 years she was married to Uncle Frank. So I grew up with a fair amount of Yiddish. Today hybridity is heresy in American scholarly discourse. In my family it was everyday life. My Uncle Tommy spoke Sicilian. He was a longshoreman and gentleman. . I will go balbh (mute) again for a few months.. I don't want my mick teas (jass) to frazzle any scientific English noives (nerves.) Peace, Beannacht, Daniel Cassidy Jazz Teas, heat, passion, excitement, high spirit, highest temperature. Pizzazz Pi/osa theas, piece or bit of heat, passion, excitement, high spirit, highest temperature. Fizz fe/ theas, less than heat, passion, excitement. Fizzle Fe/ theas uile, less than all heat, excitement, passion, etc. Sizzle Sa theas uile, in a state of all heat, excitement, passion, etc. Frazzle (fia-rois uile.) No relation to teas. A total wild unraveling. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 01:37:50 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:37:50 EST Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800, howard schrager writes: > Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell > New York > Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken > in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? One I learned in (I think) elementary school: Cin, Cin, a needle and a pin, and that's how you spell "Cincinnati" I don't know how widespread that one was. I lived in Louisville, KY, a hundred miles downriver from Cincinnati, so the spelling of the latter city was more important for us than for most of the rest of the country. Probably irrelevant, but are you familiar with the song My gal's a corker She's a New Yorker I've bought her everything to keep her in style She's got a head of hair Just like a grizzly bear That's where my mo-o-oney go-o-oe! This stanza is sung endlessly, with differently lines 5 and 6, until the singer's imagination (or the audience's patience) runs out, e.g. She's got a pair of lips/ just like potato chips She's got a pair of hips/just like two battleships - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 01:40:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:40:56 -0500 Subject: Battered Child (1962); Children's Rhymes (1941); Sunny Roll Message-ID: BATTERED CHILD I read in the Daily News (from AP) today that the person who coined "battered child" has died. (OED) b. battered baby, an infant exhibiting symptoms (the battered baby syndrome) resulting from repeated injuries inflicted upon it over a period; battered wife, woman, a woman who has been repeatedly injured or otherwise ill-treated by her partner. [1962 C. H. KEMPE et al. in Jrnl. Amer. Med. Assoc. 7 July 17/1 The battered-child syndrome is a term used by us to characterize a clinical condition in young children who have received serious physical abuse, generally from a parent or foster parent.] 1963 Brit. Med. Jrnl. 21 Dec. 1558 (heading) Multiple epiphysial injuries in babies (‘*battered baby’ syndrome). Ibid. 1560/1 The x-ray changes in the ‘battered baby’ are..like those often described in infantile scurvy. (GOOGLE NEWS) U.S. psychiatrist Brandt Steele, who helped break ground on child abuse, dies DENVER (AP) - Dr. Brandt Steele, a psychiatrist who helped pioneer the treatment of child abuse victims and coined the term "battered child," died Jan. 19. He was 97. In a 1962 paper, Steele and longtime associate Dr. C. Henry Kempe, a pediatrician, became the first to detail the physical and psychological symptoms of child abuse by parents, dubbing the result "battered child syndrome." The paper was pronounced one of the 20th century's 50 most important medical contributions by the Journal of the American Medical Association. Steele and Kempe also were first to document that abusers themselves often were childhood victims of abuse and neglect. Steele grew up in Indiana, attended Indiana University and studied under Alfred Kinsey, who later became famous for his research on sexuality. He later joined the faculty of the University of Colorado Medical School. -------------------------------------------------------------- CHILDREN'S RHYMES I've been looking into more of these. What else could follow "battered child"? Here are some from the Christian Science Monitor. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Jump-Rope Rhymes HORACE REYNOLDS. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 11, 1941. p. 12 (1 page): ... "One, two, buckle my shoe, Three, four, shut the door, Five, six, pick up sticks, Seven, eight, lay them straight" ... "Way down South, where bananas grow, A fly stepped on an elephant's toe. The elephant cried with tears in his eyes, 'You big brute, take someone your size!'" ... "Done the Mississippi where the steamboats 'putt,' An elephant stepped on a cocktoach's foot. 'Ouch,' cried the cockroach, with tears in his eyes, 'Why don't you pick on someone your size?'" ... "Missus Sippi lived by the shore, She had children three or more. The oldest one was twenty-four. How many children did she have?" Little Girl Jump-Rope Chants: Folk Rhymes in the Making; From Nantucket To New Mexico Wandering Minstrels Rhythmic Tap Of Jumping Feat Special to The Christian Science MonitorMarian Gregg.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, 1941. p. 9 (1 page): ... Charlie Chaplin went to France To teach the ladies how to dance; First the heel, then the toe, Round and round and round we go. Bow to the queen, Salute to the king, Turn your back to the submarine.. ... Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, turn around Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, touch the ground, Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, tie your shoe. Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, that will do. ... Mabel, Mabel, set the table, Don't forget the vinegar, salt and red hot pepper. ... Amos and Andy, Sugar and candy, I spy down; AMos and Andy, Sugar and candy, I spy up. Sidewalk Rhymes FRANCIS RUSSELL. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 4, 1951. p. 8 (1 page): ... Eeny, meeny, miney. mo, Catch a nigger by the toe. If he hollers, let him go, Eeny, maany, miney, mo. ... Inty, minty, dibbeldy fig, Deelya, meelya, dominig, Eitcha, peitcha, dibbeldy eitcha Uliga, buliga, boo, Out goes Y-O-U. ... No more pencils, no more books, No more teachers' cross-eyed looks. ...,,, One, two, button my shoe, Three, four, shut the door, Five, six, pick up sticks, Seven, eight, lay them straight, Nine, ten, start all over again. ... One, eat a plum, put your right foot over, Two, button my shoe, etc., Three, come with me, Four, shut the door, Five, I'm alive, Six, pick up sticks, Seven, I'm in heaven, Eight, shut the gate, Nine, be on time, Ten, start all over again. ... Eeny, meeny, Mussolini, Hit him on the bumble beany. ... Eeny, meeny, miney mo, Catch a Jap by the toe, If he hollers, make him say: "I surrender U.S.A." -------------------------------------------------------------- SUNNY ROLL (WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?) I ate at Tiny Thai, 694 Ninth Avenue between West 47th And West 48th streets. I had a "sunny roll." Sunny, one so true? (GOOGLE) New York Daily News - City Life - Dishes with a little kick at ... ... is a wonderful warmup, a bowlful of coconut broth spiked with spicy Thai herbs and tender slices of white-meat chicken. Meanwhile, the "Sunny roll" ($3.50) is ... www.nydailynews.com/city_life/ story/247147p-211705c.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 01:54:53 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:54:53 EST Subject: hooey Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were > using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" > and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault > rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or simply a "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime around 1980, due to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system in which a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of limited range so that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the area simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell to another, your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell you are entering (hence the need for computer power). The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they expect to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either non-existent or is out of service due to battle damage. A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets had over the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German radiotelephones. When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why don't you simply call it a "guttural"? - James A. Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 02:09:09 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:09:09 -0500 Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... (1948); "Never been to Yale" Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800, howard schrager writes: > Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell > New York > Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken > in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? I'm working on them. It's not like Chicago or New York pay me a lot of money for this! Author Withers, Carl, comp. Title A rocket in my pocket, the rhymes and chants of young Americans. Illustrated by Susanne Suba. Imprint [New York] H. Holt [c1948] Pg. 101: A knife and a fork A bottle and a cork That's the way To spell NEW YORK. Pg. 102: Chicken in the car And the car won't go That's the way to spell CHICAGO. Lots more of interest here! Pg. 3: I says, you says, We all want ices. Pg. 11: Girls are dandy, Made of candy-- That's what little irls are made of. Boys are rotten, Made of cotton-- That's what little boys are made of. Pg. 15: I've got a rocket In my pocket; I cannot stop to play. Away it goes! I've burnt my toes. It's Independence Day. Pg. 16: I love my wife and I love my baby. I love my biscuits sopped in gravy. Pg. 40: Charlie Chuck Married a duck Duck died Charlied cried. Pg. 42: Beef and bacon's out of season; I want a knife to eat my peas on. Pg. 67: Apple on a stick Makes me sick; Gives me aa stomache ache. Two, four, six. Pg. 67: I should worry, I should care, I should marry a millionaire; He should die, I should cry-- Then I'd marry a richer guy. Pg. 77: Eat fresh fried fish free at the fish fry. Pg. 128: I'm rubber and you're glue. What you say to me will bounce back and stick to you. Pg. 159: You be the ice cream, I'll be the freezer. You be the lemon and I'll be the squeezer. Pg. 163: U R 2 good 2 B 4 got 10. (You are too good to be forgotten.) Pg. 168: I made you look, I made you look. I made you buy a penny book. Pg. 172: Laugh before you eat, Cry before you sleep. Touch black, touch black! You'll never get it back. Pg. 175: If you stub your tow, You're bound to meet your beau. Pg. 193: Oh, you may drive a horse to water, But a pencil must be lead. -------------------------------------------------------------- "NEVER BEEN TO YALE" MISS MARY MAC ALL DRESSED IN BLACK: TONGUE TWISTERS, JUMP-ROPE THYMES AND OTHER CHILDREN'S LORE FROM NEW ENGLAND by Scott E. Hastings, Jr. Little Rock, AK: August Houst Publishers, Inc. 1990 This is a fine collection, but no dates are given. (As with much of this stuff.) Here's one for Yale. Pg. 115: I've never been to Paris, I've never been to Yale, The only place I've ever been is the good old county jail. One day when I was sleeping I looked upon the wall, The quiddys (_cooties?_) and the bedbugs were having a game of ball. The score was two to zero, the quiddys were ahead The bedbugs hit a homerun and knocked me out of bed! From gorion at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 30 02:30:46 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:30:46 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: <6920430746197484983@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: By the mid-early 80s outside of Denver, we had Ink-a bink A bottle of ink. [The] cork fell off And yoooooouu stink! I learned it from my older sister. On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:07:35 -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > The version that we had (in St. Louis, though I'm a native of Marshall, > Texas, about 35 mi. west of "Sreepote") was: > > Ink-a stink-a > Bottle of ink-a > Oh, how you do stink! > It ain't none of me > It ain't none of you > It ain't nobody but > Y-O-U! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 03:36:59 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:36:59 -0500 Subject: "I should marry a millionaire" (1913); Republican/Horse Thief & Will Rogers (1925) Message-ID: (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Monday, June 16, 1913 Syracuse/, New York/ ...SHOULD I SHOULD cAre. I SHOULD MARRY A mIllIonAIre. If he SHOULD dIe. 1 SHOULD.....newspAper. nevcr'Slxey. oIl mutlrrA SHOULD bA AddrxMwII to to lu emplojn flf.. Pg. 8, col. 5: I should worry, I should care. I should marry a millionaire. If he should die, I should cry; I should marry another guy. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("I should marry a millionaire") 1. OUT OF THE MOUTHS -- JAMES NEILD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 19, 1926. p. XX12 (1 page) 2. B.A. Botkin, Folklore Expert, Is Dead By MURRAY ILLSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 31, 1975. p. 30 (1 page): Dr. Botkin's investigators found that one of the most popular and widespread children's chants was: I should worry, I should care, I should marry a millionaire. He should die, I should cry. I should marry another guy. Another was: Take a local, Take an express, Don't get off Till you reach success. (...) One of its characteristic anecdotes was the following: "Why," asked the Northerner, "are you a Democrat?" "Well," drawled the Southerner, "my father was a Democrat, my grandfather was a Democrat, and my great-grandfather was a Democrat, so of course I'm a Democrat." "Ah," said the Northerner, "suppose your father had been a horse thief, what would you have been then?" "Oh, I guess I'd a been a Republican." --Buffalo Commercial. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("horse thief") The Worst Story I Have Heard Today By Will Rogers. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1925. p. 6 (1 page): He (Gov. Al Smith--ed.) said one time President Roosevelt was making a political speech in Maine; he asked if there was a Democrat in the audience. An old, long-whiskered man arose in the back of the room and said: "I am a Democrat. My father was a Democrat, and my grandfather was a Democrat." Roosevelt then said: "Then if your father had been a horse theif and your grandfather had been a hose thief, you would be a horse thief?" "No," he said. "I would be a Republican." Now, I claim that a story to be good must be true or based on truth. That story Al told is not true. In the first place, Roosevelt wouldn't be speaking in Maine. No politican ever wasted speeches in a State he already controlled. And in the second place, all Republicans are not horse thieves. At the biggest estimate not over 90 per cent are horse thieves. Every once in a while you meet a pretty nice one. Coming to Terms With Politics; Book World SAFIRE'S POLITICAL DICTIONARY. By William Safire (Random House, 845 pp. $15.95) Reviewed by Norman J. Ornstein. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 20, 1978. p. D13 (1 page) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 03:55:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:55:30 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050129103740.D42351@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 10:39 AM -0500 1/29/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Laurence Horn said: >>>> >Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In >our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > >Eenie meenie meinie moe >Catch a tiger by the toe >If he hollers let him go >My mother said to pick this very one >Y-O-U spells you > > ><<< > >NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". > Yeah, we had that version too; as noted, it was just the first three lines that were invariant. L From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 03:58:02 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:58:02 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: My mother told me to pick the very best one O-U-T spells out goes YOU! It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Laurence Horn said: >>>> > Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In > our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > > <<< > > NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". > > > mark by hand > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 04:33:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:33:21 -0500 Subject: Cohen and "jazz" Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: "The etymology of 'jazz' is still open for discussion. I.e., if the crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting 'jazz' (in: 'Come on, the old jazz!') might plausibly derive from now obsolete 'jasm' (energy, force). The incantation would then have meant roughly 'May the force be with me.'" In similar situations, I've heard the bruthuhs shout, "Snake Mary! (or, perhaps,) ... Merry!/merry! Come on! Hunch me, Snake/snake!" Unfortunately for further discussion, I have no idea what the referent was. Obviously, this was some kind of call for luck. "Hunch" among blacks can, as a verb, mean "poke someone in the ribs with one's elbow so as to get that person's attention." Hence, I assume that the player was calling upon a deity of good fortune to hunch him and supply him with whatever mojo it took for his play to win. Further deponent sayeth not. -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 04:40:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:40:54 -0800 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Ah, Doug, Doug. So innocent. As recently as the 1950s - make that the 1960s - in fact, up till the late '70s if I recall correctly, the censorship of certain words was still so strong that no TV show in prime time or later would or could transmit any colloquialism that had a well-known sexual or scatological meaning, unless, as in the exx. you suggest, no simple synopnym ws available. You may recall the more recent minor uproar in far more permissive times, the early '90s, when the word "sucks" = "stinks" was broadcast for apparently the first time on network TV. Nothing came of the protests, but they were widely and seriously reported. (Nobody had ever objected to "stinks," so far as I know.) Here's an example of what could happen from 1969. Following the great success of NBC's "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In," ABC tried its hand at a comedy show in a similar format - lots of one-liners and black-out comedy. This show sported the double entendre name of "Turn-On" (get it?). The high point for me was when a busty blonde in an evening dress looked directly into the camera's eye and cooed, "Richard Nixon is the titular head of the Republican Party." That was it. Blackout. The outburst of condemnation for this unbelievable indecency knocked the show off the air after one episode. Thank God I caught it. Lest you think it was the inclusion of the President's name in the gag that brought the hammer down, the various "concerned" editorials that I read were equally in the "liberal" press of the day, and none of them indicated that "political satire" was the problem. Sure, "make" and "do," etc., have sexual meanings and were not banned - but communication would be almost impossible without these words- and I guarandamntee you that if a TV star or journalist of 35 or 40 years ago had uttered either one with the right intonation or facial expression, said individual would be pounding the pavement within forty-eight hours. In those days even the hint of a sexual or scatological nuance would get a TV employee in trouble with the network. (Janet Jackson could not have malfunctioned back then because the entire halftime show as presented in 2004 would have been banned ahead of time as obscene.) Much greater license, of course, was permitted in books, but not in movies or magazines. About 1966 Ralph Ginzburg was sent to Federal prison for a few years - not for *publishing* his high-class and pricey erotic art magazine "Eros," but for *humorously* mailing the subscription ads from - are you sitting down? - INTERCOURSE and BLUE BALL Pennsylvania ! When the Merriam-Webster 3 included "bed" as a transitive verb in 1961, this was cited as one more (idiot) reason why this greatest American dictionary should not be purchased or referred to. The "F" word was not included, reportedly because during a meeting held to decide the issue, nobody there, proponents included, could bring themselves to say the word itself - in a closed meeting of some of the top lexicographers of their generation! And all that was in the "wild" '60s. Even now, Hollywood movies are dubbed for network broadcast to remove any bad words. Had anyone on any aboveboard paper in 1912-13 known of the sexual senses of "jazz" and knowingly allowed the word to be printed in any sense at all, he or she would likely have faced a misdemeanor charge or worse. JL Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >... I agree that no SF Bulletin editor in his right mind would have >printed "jazz" in 1912 if he had the slightest suspicion that the word was >indecent. But "the word is indecent" seems stronger than what would be implied by the pre-existence (even well-known) of "jazz" meaning "f*ck". Many verbs routinely mean exactly "f*ck" (among other meanings): even such basic ones as "do", "have", "know", "make". There is no shying away from these verbs in general. Other verbs may even have "f*ck" as a dominant or very likely meaning, without causing any avoidance of a homonymous noun: e.g., "bed", "prong", "pork". Suppose that ca. 1900 "jazz" was used casually like "fizz" and/or like "zig-zag" and/or like "jasm" -- and also widely used as a verb equivalent (in denotation) to the F-word. I think in this case "jazz" would have been printed freely, at least as long as it didn't appear as a transitive verb. By comparison, when I was young[er] (ca. 1960) it was common knowledge that (e.g.) "He was banging her" referred to sex and this sentence would not have appeared in the newspaper (AFAIK), but all sorts of other uses of "bang" were OK, even "He gets a bang out of her" for example. OTOH, the F-word itself has generally been treated as indecent in all applications, and I agree that "jazz" cannot have been such a word. But I think there are only a few such globally unacceptable words. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 04:46:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:46:17 -0800 Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... Message-ID: "She's got a pair of tits/ Just like two boxing mitts." "I am not making this up." -- Dave Barry. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800, howard schrager writes: > Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell > New York > Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken > in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? One I learned in (I think) elementary school: Cin, Cin, a needle and a pin, and that's how you spell "Cincinnati" I don't know how widespread that one was. I lived in Louisville, KY, a hundred miles downriver from Cincinnati, so the spelling of the latter city was more important for us than for most of the rest of the country. Probably irrelevant, but are you familiar with the song My gal's a corker She's a New Yorker I've bought her everything to keep her in style She's got a head of hair Just like a grizzly bear That's where my mo-o-oney go-o-oe! This stanza is sung endlessly, with differently lines 5 and 6, until the singer's imagination (or the audience's patience) runs out, e.g. She's got a pair of lips/ just like potato chips She's got a pair of hips/just like two battleships - Jim Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 04:54:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:54:21 -0500 Subject: Kissing poem (1969); Peanut Butter poem (1922) Message-ID: Here are two I've seen in several books. The kissing poem must be earlier than this. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Coshocton Tribune Tuesday, February 25, 1969 Coshocton, Ohio ...then COMES MARRIAGE: then here she COMES with a BABY CARRIAGE." .Liquor j n.....complex .Childhood Chants remembered: "FIRST COMES love.. Pg. 6, col. 1 (Bert Bacharach column from Los Angeles): FADED PHRASES: "She's a caution," "Little pitchers have big ears" and "He's dead to the world"...Childhood chants remembered: "First comes love, then comes marriage; then here she comes with a baby carriage." Daily Herald Sunday, July 07, 1985 Chicago, Illinois ...favorite anONymous. A PEANUT A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD It's heart was all a.....Choo-choo train comes round THE Toot PEANUT When THE Dark Comes Dancing. a.. Bee Wednesday, June 14, 1922 Danville, Virginia ...powder pufts. Life. Toot Toot A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD track, Its heart was.....THE came thundering past Toot Toot1. PEANUT Butter. Nowadays. H. E. says an.. Pg. 4, col. 2: _Toot! Toot!_ A peanut sat on the railroad track, Its heart was all a-flutter, The 3:45 came thundering past-- Toot! Toot! Peanut Butter. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:04:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:04:16 -0800 Subject: "I should marry a millionaire" (1913); Republican/Horse Thief & Will Rogers (1925) Message-ID: This joke just came to mind and I'd better record it for Posterity. I believe I saw it in some 19th century magazine. Maybe it's not that funny after all. After the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Court House, Southern soldiers were given parole on the sole condition that they endorse a paper pledging their permanent allegiance to the duly elected Government of the United States. During one of these signings, after many and many a erbel soldier had accepted his pardon from the government of Uncle Sam, an old grizzled veteran of Joe Johnston's army appeared before the Yankee officer to be paroled. After reading the document, the old veteran looked the hated Yankee in the eye, and said with bitterness, "Well, we guv you *H--l* at Chickamaugy!" "Just sign the paper," exclaimed the Union man. "And no more of your sauce!" "I *said*, 'We guv you *H--l* at Chickamaugy!'" "Come, come!" expostulated the officer, whose patience with the old fellow was now wearing thin. "Come sign immediately or I'll have you arrested and imprisoned as the traitor that you have been and are !" The old man shifted his tobacco, and realizing his dire circumstances, quickly affixed his signature to the official document sanctioning his freedom. "There, my good man," said his interlocutor. "Now you are once again a citizen of this Great Republic, as good as any man you see here." "The clever old man replied, 'You mean I'm a Yankee now?'" "Yes, of course!" came the reply. "Jest like you?" "Yes, yes, I have siad it is so." "Wall, in that case I just have one thing left to say." "And that thing is --- ? "They guv us *H--l* at Chickamaugy!" (With a tear for the America that was,) JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "I should marry a millionaire" (1913); Republican/Horse Thief & Will Rogers (1925) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Monday, June 16, 1913 Syracuse/, New York/ ...SHOULD I SHOULD cAre. I SHOULD MARRY A mIllIonAIre. If he SHOULD dIe. 1 SHOULD.....newspAper. nevcr'Slxey. oIl mutlrrA SHOULD bA AddrxMwII to to lu emplojn flf.. Pg. 8, col. 5: I should worry, I should care. I should marry a millionaire. If he should die, I should cry; I should marry another guy. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("I should marry a millionaire") 1. OUT OF THE MOUTHS -- JAMES NEILD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 19, 1926. p. XX12 (1 page) 2. B.A. Botkin, Folklore Expert, Is Dead By MURRAY ILLSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 31, 1975. p. 30 (1 page): Dr. Botkin's investigators found that one of the most popular and widespread children's chants was: I should worry, I should care, I should marry a millionaire. He should die, I should cry. I should marry another guy. Another was: Take a local, Take an express, Don't get off Till you reach success. (...) One of its characteristic anecdotes was the following: "Why," asked the Northerner, "are you a Democrat?" "Well," drawled the Southerner, "my father was a Democrat, my grandfather was a Democrat, and my great-grandfather was a Democrat, so of course I'm a Democrat." "Ah," said the Northerner, "suppose your father had been a horse thief, what would you have been then?" "Oh, I guess I'd a been a Republican." --Buffalo Commercial. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("horse thief") The Worst Story I Have Heard Today By Will Rogers. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1925. p. 6 (1 page): He (Gov. Al Smith--ed.) said one time President Roosevelt was making a political speech in Maine; he asked if there was a Democrat in the audience. An old, long-whiskered man arose in the back of the room and said: "I am a Democrat. My father was a Democrat, and my grandfather was a Democrat." Roosevelt then said: "Then if your father had been a horse theif and your grandfather had been a hose thief, you would be a horse thief?" "No," he said. "I would be a Republican." Now, I claim that a story to be good must be true or based on truth. That story Al told is not true. In the first place, Roosevelt wouldn't be speaking in Maine. No politican ever wasted speeches in a State he already controlled. And in the second place, all Republicans are not horse thieves. At the biggest estimate not over 90 per cent are horse thieves. Every once in a while you meet a pretty nice one. Coming to Terms With Politics; Book World SAFIRE'S POLITICAL DICTIONARY. By William Safire (Random House, 845 pp. $15.95) Reviewed by Norman J. Ornstein. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 20, 1978. p. D13 (1 page) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:09:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:09:37 -0800 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: . . . It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. ******************************************************************************** "There was an old man of Milan Whose verses never would scan. He said, "As a poet, My fault, and I know it, Is that I always try to get as many words into the very last line as I possibly can." --Anon., with the middle lines by JL because I can't remember the originals. JL ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: My mother told me to pick the very best one O-U-T spells out goes YOU! -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Laurence Horn said: >>>> > Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In > our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > > <<< > > NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". > > > mark by hand > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:15:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:15:58 -0800 Subject: Kissing poem (1969); Peanut Butter poem (1922) Message-ID: NYC, 1961: Ooey Gooey was a worm, A mighty worm was he! He sat upon a railroad track, The train he could not see: [Slowly, with great disgust and force, contorted features, drool, rictus sardonicus, etc.:] OOOOOOOOEEEEE GOOOOOOEEEEEEEY! ! ! ! ! ! ! Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Kissing poem (1969); Peanut Butter poem (1922) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are two I've seen in several books. The kissing poem must be earlier than this. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Coshocton Tribune Tuesday, February 25, 1969 Coshocton, Ohio ...then COMES MARRIAGE: then here she COMES with a BABY CARRIAGE." .Liquor j n.....complex .Childhood Chants remembered: "FIRST COMES love.. Pg. 6, col. 1 (Bert Bacharach column from Los Angeles): FADED PHRASES: "She's a caution," "Little pitchers have big ears" and "He's dead to the world"...Childhood chants remembered: "First comes love, then comes marriage; then here she comes with a baby carriage." Daily Herald Sunday, July 07, 1985 Chicago, Illinois ...favorite anONymous. A PEANUT A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD It's heart was all a.....Choo-choo train comes round THE Toot PEANUT When THE Dark Comes Dancing. a.. Bee Wednesday, June 14, 1922 Danville, Virginia ...powder pufts. Life. Toot Toot A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD track, Its heart was.....THE came thundering past Toot Toot1. PEANUT Butter. Nowadays. H. E. says an.. Pg. 4, col. 2: _Toot! Toot!_ A peanut sat on the railroad track, Its heart was all a-flutter, The 3:45 came thundering past-- Toot! Toot! Peanut Butter. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 05:21:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:21:28 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 12:23 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The substitution of "tiger" for "nigger" in eeny-meeny came long > after my > childhood. While we were forbidden to use "nigger" in general, that > is, in > expressions such as "nigger toes" for Brazil nuts or "niggerheads" for > coneflowers, or "nigger in the woodpile" for the obscure bad factor, I > don't remember that eeny-meeny was out-of-bounds. I think this was > because > our parents made a distinction between culturally-embedded usage and > voluntary use. They would look askance at bowdlerization, but would > avoid > the incivility of gratuitous insult. Blackface was instrinsically bad, > so_ > Amos & Andy_ was out, nevermind that it was a staple in black > households > with radios. We employed a black daily maid, but, oddly, this was a > mark of > liberal enlightenment in that place & time: all the other households > on the > street had white maids only. > Sorry, I seem to be wandering off the track here. > A. Murie > Oh, what the hey? Why can't we just assume that dialectology is but a form of sociolinguistics and go with that? I was completely unaware of the term "nigger toe" till I was in the Army in 1961. A white, fellow G.I., also from Texas, explained it to me. Of course, once I'd heard the explanation, the relevance of the usage was immediately obvious. I have no idea what a "coneflower" is, so you've lost me on that one. However, I do know "niggerhead," but primarily as a literary term for an underwater obstruction that can rip out the bottom of a commercial fishing boat. -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 05:47:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:47:28 -0500 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" Message-ID: Back in the '30's, '40's, and '50's, GE had practically a lock on light bulb sales and "Mazda" was a trademark that GE used. Back then, even Westinghouse was practically an off-brand by comparison, when it came to light bulbs. In fact, when I worked for the Los Angeles Department of Water & Power, GE turbo-electric generators were considered to be superior to those made by Westinghouse. At the power plant where I worked, there were four Westinghouse generators - the plant was built during the war and GE generators were hard to come by - and one GE generator. The Westinghouse generators were always breaking down. Fortunately, the one GE generator could generate as much electricity by itself, when necessary, as the four Westinghouse generators could together. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:50:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:50:54 -0800 Subject: Ho ho ho! Message-ID: OED has "ho ho (ho) ! " as far back as the Middle Ages, but for some reason restricts it to a representation of "derisive laughter." Damn, Santa ! I thought you were laughing *with* us ! Sheesh ! JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 05:52:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:52:18 -0500 Subject: diffuse/ defuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The teacher didn't notice anything wrong with the sentence, "Which is the write word?" -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: diffuse/ defuse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" > threatening to oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? > > I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: > > "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / > defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" > > She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further > inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." > > E pede Herculem, > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 06:18:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:18:29 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: She would have. This is what happens when one quotes from memory. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: diffuse/ defuse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The teacher didn't notice anything wrong with the sentence, "Which is the write word?" -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: diffuse/ defuse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" > threatening to oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? > > I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: > > "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / > defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" > > She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further > inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." > > E pede Herculem, > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 06:19:59 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:19:59 -0500 Subject: Children's Rhymes (1941) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anna! Anna! Get the Ipana! Mother just bit A wax banana! "Ipana" was a brand of toothpaste and, once upon a time, dining-room tables were routinely decorated with a bowl of wax fruit. -Wilson Gray On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------- > CHILDREN'S RHYMES > > I've been looking into more of these. What else could follow "battered > child"? > Here are some from the Christian Science Monitor. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Jump-Rope Rhymes > HORACE REYNOLDS. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). > Boston, Mass.: Jul 11, 1941. p. 12 (1 page): > ... > "One, two, buckle my shoe, > Three, four, shut the door, > Five, six, pick up sticks, > Seven, eight, lay them straight" > ... > "Way down South, where bananas grow, > A fly stepped on an elephant's toe. > The elephant cried with tears in his eyes, > 'You big brute, take someone your size!'" > ... > "Done the Mississippi where the steamboats 'putt,' > An elephant stepped on a cocktoach's foot. > 'Ouch,' cried the cockroach, with tears in his eyes, > 'Why don't you pick on someone your size?'" > ... > "Missus Sippi lived by the shore, > She had children three or more. > The oldest one was twenty-four. > How many children did she have?" > > > Little Girl Jump-Rope Chants: Folk Rhymes in the Making; From > Nantucket To New Mexico Wandering Minstrels Rhythmic Tap Of Jumping > Feat > Special to The Christian Science MonitorMarian Gregg.. Christian > Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, 1941. p. 9 > (1 page): > ... > Charlie Chaplin went to France > To teach the ladies how to dance; > First the heel, then the toe, > Round and round and round we go. > Bow to the queen, > Salute to the king, > Turn your back to the submarine.. > ... > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, turn around > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, touch the ground, > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, tie your shoe. > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, that will do. > ... > Mabel, Mabel, set the table, > Don't forget the vinegar, salt and red hot pepper. > ... > Amos and Andy, > Sugar and candy, > I spy down; > AMos and Andy, > Sugar and candy, > I spy up. > > > Sidewalk Rhymes > FRANCIS RUSSELL. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). > Boston, Mass.: Jan 4, 1951. p. 8 (1 page): > ... > Eeny, meeny, miney. mo, > Catch a nigger by the toe. > If he hollers, let him go, > Eeny, maany, miney, mo. > ... > Inty, minty, dibbeldy fig, > Deelya, meelya, dominig, > Eitcha, peitcha, dibbeldy eitcha > Uliga, buliga, boo, > Out goes Y-O-U. > ... > No more pencils, no more books, > No more teachers' cross-eyed looks. > ...,,, > One, two, button my shoe, > Three, four, shut the door, > Five, six, pick up sticks, > Seven, eight, lay them straight, > Nine, ten, start all over again. > ... > One, eat a plum, put your right foot over, > Two, button my shoe, etc., > Three, come with me, > Four, shut the door, > Five, I'm alive, > Six, pick up sticks, > Seven, I'm in heaven, > Eight, shut the gate, > Nine, be on time, > Ten, start all over again. > ... > Eeny, meeny, Mussolini, > Hit him on the bumble beany. > ... > Eeny, meeny, miney mo, > Catch a Jap by the toe, > If he hollers, make him say: > "I surrender U.S.A." > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > SUNNY ROLL (WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?) > > I ate at Tiny Thai, 694 Ninth Avenue between West 47th And West 48th > streets. I had a "sunny roll." Sunny, one so true? > > > (GOOGLE) > New York Daily News - City Life - Dishes with a little kick at ... > ... is a wonderful warmup, a bowlful of coconut broth spiked with > spicy Thai herbs and > tender slices of white-meat chicken. Meanwhile, the "Sunny roll" > ($3.50) is ... > www.nydailynews.com/city_life/ story/247147p-211705c.html - 38k - > Cached - Similar pages > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 30 06:57:54 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:57:54 -0500 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:40:54 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Ah, Doug, Doug. So innocent. As recently as the 1950s - make that the >1960s - in fact, up till the late '70s if I recall correctly, the >censorship of certain words was still so strong that no TV show in prime >time or later would or could transmit any colloquialism that had a >well-known sexual or scatological meaning, unless, as in the exx. you >suggest, no simple synopnym ws available. You may recall the more recent >minor uproar in far more permissive times, the early '90s, when the word >"sucks" = "stinks" was broadcast for apparently the first time on network >TV. Nothing came of the protests, but they were widely and seriously >reported. (Nobody had ever objected to "stinks," so far as I know.) >From _The Philadelphia Story_ (1940): Dinah: This stinks. Margaret: Don't say 'stinks,' darling. If absolutely necessary, 'smells' - but only if absolutely necessary. http://www.filmsite.org/phil.html Coincidentally enough, I recently noticed this bit of dialogue from another 1940 classic, _His Girl Friday_: Walter: Handle him with kid gloves. Put him to work writing poetry. No, no, we don't want him. Just stall him along till the Extra's out. Then tell him his poetry smells and kick him down the stairs. http://www.filmsite.org/hisg4.html That struck me as a euphemistic substitution for "his poetry stinks", which seemed odd coming from the hard-boiled newsman Walter Burns (Cary Grant's character). --Ben Zimmer From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 07:19:49 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:19:49 EST Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women Message-ID: In Los Angeles circa 1940/1950, we used several expressions: When asked, "How do you like your coffee?", the response would be: " I like my coffee just like my women, hot, black and only costs a dime." Another expression used when alluding to a sexual liason with a black woman: "Once you go black, you never come back." Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 07:30:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:30:57 EST Subject: "Two Tutors" (1899 limerick) and Puddentame (1940) Message-ID: "A tutor was teaching two tutors to toot" is on page 132 of MISS MARY MAC, ALL DRESSED IN BLACK: TONGUE TWISTERS, JUMP ROPE RHYMES AND OTHER CHILDREN'S LORE FROM NEW ENGLAND (1990). ... ... ... _NOVEL ADVERTISING SCHEMES; Poetry and High Class Literature Sent Out Without Credit--A Striking Example _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=426747561&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11070 68757&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 19, 1899. p. D2 (1 page) ... An example of this style of advertising is the following, which has been issued from the office of the Second Vice President of a prominent insurance company: ... A tutor who tooted the flute Tried to tutor two tutors to toot. Said the two to the tutor, "Is it harder to toot, or To tutor two tutors to toot?" ... ... ... >From MISS MARY MAC (1990), pg. 103: _PUDDENTAME_ ... What's your name? Puddentame. Where are you from? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's your trade? Lemonade. Show us some if you're not afraid. ... ... _HERE'S SQUEEZE PLAY TO DEFEAT HEAT: LEMONADE; Variations on This Cool Drink Are Many. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pq dweb?index=0&did=466662732&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107069760&clientId=658 82) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 26, 1940. p. 12 (1 page) ... "What's your trade?" "Lemonade." It's part of the rigamarole that went with the old game of charades, but many a mother may feel pushed to the point of adopting it as her theme song during a hot spell.2940 From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 07:45:36 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:45:36 EST Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties Message-ID: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm Shaving brushes You'll soon see 'em On a shelf In some museum Burma-Shave His cheek Was rough His chick vamoosed And now she won't Come home to roost Burma-Shave On curves ahead Remember, sonny That rabbit's foot Didn't save The bunny Burma-Shave If your peach Keeps out Of reach Better practice What we preach Burma-Shave Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 07:52:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:52:29 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were >> using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed >> telephony" >> and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault >> rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or > simply a > "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a > particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime > around 1980, due > to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system > in which > a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called > "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of > limited range so > that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the > area > simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell > to another, > your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell > you are > entering (hence the need for computer power). > > The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they > expect > to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either > non-existent or > is out of service due to battle damage. > > A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets > had over > the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of > Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German > radiotelephones. > > When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why > don't > you simply call it a "guttural"? > > - James A. Landau Jeez, I understand all of that, Jimbo. Clearly, a military telephonic radio from fifty years ago the size of an overnight bag and weighing fifty pounds or more is not the same as one of today's cellular telephones, any more than a Model-T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. But the development of one did lead to the development of the other. And yes, I know that the argument, post hoc, ergo propter hoc, is logically meaningless, just as is the concept of the "doorway drug." So what if 70% or whatever percentage of heroin addicts started out smoking pot, given that 100% per cent of them started out by being born? Clearly, birth is a better indicator of future narcotic use than grass-use can ever be. As for the Russian [x], I don't simply call it a "guttural" because it's a velar. -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 08:10:40 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:10:40 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A couple from the 'Forties: We know How much You love that gal But use both hands When driving, pal Burma-Shave Car in ditch Man in tree Moon was full So was he Burma-Shave -Wilson Gray On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > Shaving brushes > You'll soon see 'em > On a shelf > In some museum > Burma-Shave > > His cheek > Was rough > His chick vamoosed > And now she won't > Come home to roost > Burma-Shave > > On curves ahead > Remember, sonny > That rabbit's foot > Didn't save > The bunny > Burma-Shave > > If your peach > Keeps out > Of reach > Better practice > What we preach > Burma-Shave > > > Jerry E Kane > Los Angeles, CA > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 08:26:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:26:01 EST Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't Message-ID: FUZZY WUZZY: ... _Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2oe7tDcJpnAoDSNq4Zbmrbl9tCUTeh+JM0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, July 31, 1942 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fuzzy+wuzzy+and+bear+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fuzzy+wuzzy+ and+bear+AND) ...Wis. FUZZY WUZZY was a BEAR; FUZZY WUZZY had no hair; FUZZY WUZZY wasn't.....very FUZZY was 'e? Anna Carol Kingdon Dear.. {g. 8, col. 1: Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair; Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't very fuzzy, was 'e?--Anna Carol Kingdon. ... ... ... TEN LITTLE INDIANS: ... _RECENT FICTION._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=109775174&SrchMode=1&sid=19&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107070952&clien tId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 17, 1880. p. 4 (1 page) ... Mr. Russell's story is something like the refrain of the "Ten Little Indians," only the savages are of a seafaring character. ... ... ... DON'T SAY AIN'T ... I like this one from MISS MARY MAC, pg. 38, but I couldn't find it on the databases. ... ... Don't say ain't, your mother will faint, And your father will fall in a bucket of paint. Your sister will cry, your brother will die, And you dog will call the FBI. ... (My dog will call the FBI??--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 30 05:57:13 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:57:13 -0500 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050130044055.66447.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >.... Had anyone on any aboveboard paper in 1912-13 known of the sexual >senses of "jazz" and knowingly allowed the word to be printed in any sense >at all, he or she would likely have faced a misdemeanor charge or worse. Hmmm. So how did the term "screwball" get accepted? Is it thought that the obscene verb "screw" was unknown to those who first published the word "screwball"? Or is it decontaminated by the combination with "ball"? Surely the referent does not demand this word (in its baseball sense or its other one); was there any attempt to avoid the word, to introduce a sanitized equivalent? What about "snafu", which has been in the papers since WW II? Was it really arguably innocent at first? Or did everybody already know what the "F" stood for? [I'm not sure we really know the answer to this one.] When it became clear, did the word suddenly disappear from the papers, from fear of the censor? [Maybe it did transiently, I don't know.] Why has "pussy" been used in the papers with impunity all along, with reference to cats and otherwise? "Pussy[cat]" is never necessary; "cat" will do, or "kittycat". Is it suggested that the newspaper editors would have claimed ignorance of the existence of the sexual senses of "pussy"? Of course I am still young and naive, but it is my impression that (except for a few globally unacceptable words, e.g., "f*ck", "c*nt") an 'innocent' neologism might appear freely in the newspapers in spite of the existence of a known obscene homonym, provided that the obscene sense was not too dominant and that there was no indication of deliberate double-entendre. -- Doug Wilson From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Sun Jan 30 11:01:59 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:01:59 +0000 Subject: diffuse/ defuse In-Reply-To: <200501292258.j0TMwVj1018714@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 29/1/05 10:58 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: diffuse/ defuse > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to > oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? > > I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: > > "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / > defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" > > She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she > confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." > > E pede Herculem, > > JL > Was that the rong write? Neil Crawford From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:04:17 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:17 -0500 Subject: "Complicit" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050130000643.02e7fca0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: complicit (not in OED) 1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein Online) Consumers, as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be almost solely the cause for any misperceptions that occur. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:11:20 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:11:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Eminent Domain" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: eminent domain (OED 1850) 1805 Emer de Vattel _The Law of Nations_ 173 (Making of Modern Law) The right which belonged to the society or to the sovereign, of disposing, in case of necessity and for the public safety, of all the wealth contained in the state is called the _eminent domain_. ... If the nation disposes of the _public property_, in virtue of his eminent domain, the alienation is valid, as having been made with a sufficient power. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From orinkh at CARR.ORG Sun Jan 30 14:03:46 2005 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:03:46 -0500 Subject: "Complicit" Message-ID: >Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: > > >complicit (not in OED) > >1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein Online) Consumers, >as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are >complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be almost solely >the cause for any misperceptions that occur. It's also curiously missing from RHUD, WNW-4, and Collins. ODE's got it, however, and says "1940s: back-formation from complicity." (but with no citational evidence). MW-11 says 1973. AH-4 doesn't date it. Orin Hargraves From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:30:39 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:30:39 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Executive Privilege" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: executive privilege (OED 1940) 1912 Francis Wharton _A Treatise on the Law of Evidence in Criminal Issues_ (ed. 10) 2323 (Making of Modern Law) EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, against testimony of public matters. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:38:39 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:38:39 -0500 Subject: Earlier Citation for "Complicit" In-Reply-To: <200501301429.j0UEThN4014691@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: complicit (not in OED) 1928 _Federal Reporter, 2nd Series_ 28: 423 (Lexis) The plaintiff was complicit in the matters which caused the revocation of the Waterloo Company's permits. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 30 14:39:46 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:39:46 -0500 Subject: Earlier Citation for "Complicit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 09:38:39AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > complicit (not in OED) > > 1928 _Federal Reporter, 2nd Series_ 28: 423 (Lexis) The plaintiff was > complicit in the matters which caused the revocation of the Waterloo > Company's permits. Thanks for this. As Orin suggested, we have a 1949 example in our draft entry. Jesse Sheidlower OED From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jan 30 14:42:35 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:42:35 -0500 Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- >From: > ... > I like this one from MISS MARY MAC, pg. 38, but I couldn't find it on the > databases. > ... > Don't say ain't, your mother will faint, > And your father will fall in a bucket of paint. > Your sister will cry, your brother will die, > And you dog will call the FBI. > ... > (My dog will call the FBI??--ed.) > So, what SHOULD he have done--call the CIA? {rimshot} SC From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Sun Jan 30 15:39:36 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:39:36 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties Message-ID: My favorite Burma Shave doggerel: They took the curve, the car was whizzin'. The fault was hers, the funeral his'n. Burma Shave. Alan Baragona ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:10 AM Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > A couple from the 'Forties: > > We know > How much > You love that gal > But use both hands > When driving, pal > Burma-Shave > > Car in ditch > Man in tree > Moon was full > So was he > Burma-Shave > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerry E Kane > > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > > > Shaving brushes > > You'll soon see 'em > > On a shelf > > In some museum > > Burma-Shave > > > > His cheek > > Was rough > > His chick vamoosed > > And now she won't > > Come home to roost > > Burma-Shave > > > > On curves ahead > > Remember, sonny > > That rabbit's foot > > Didn't save > > The bunny > > Burma-Shave > > > > If your peach > > Keeps out > > Of reach > > Better practice > > What we preach > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > Jerry E Kane > > Los Angeles, CA > > > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 15:57:54 2005 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:57:54 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Mazda=20bulbs"?= Message-ID: What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered if it's related to the name of the Japanese car. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Sun Jan 30 16:08:38 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:08:38 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] Message-ID: As a lexicographer, I'd say "ho ho ho" should be a dictionary entry/definition because of its distinctive meaning. If it's relevant, here is something that I wrote some time back in a trademark affidavit: ". . . iteratives like "Bang-Bang" and "Hear, Hear" may be repeated indefinitely, but the lexeme, or meaningful linguistic unit that qualifies as a dictionary entry, is composed of the same word repeated once. . . . The odd triple formation, as in "Oyez, oyez, oyez!" is usually a rhetorical, poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, bells" (Edith Sitwell?), "the hoop-hoop-hoop of the large-bodied, grey-bearded monkey" (R. H. Elliot), or Santa Claus's trademark greeting "Ho-ho-ho!" Thomas Paikeday www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:50 AM Subject: Ho ho ho! > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Ho ho ho! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED has "ho ho (ho) ! " as far back as the Middle Ages, but for some > reason restricts it to a representation of "derisive laughter." > > Damn, Santa ! I thought you were laughing *with* us ! Sheesh ! > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! > From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Sun Jan 30 16:13:48 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:13:48 -0500 Subject: Fw: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] Message-ID: SORRY, PLEASE DELETE LAST FIVE WORDS! CORRECTED VERSION BELOW. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Paikeday" To: "American Dialect Society" Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] > As a lexicographer, I'd say "ho ho ho" should be a dictionary > entry/definition because of its distinctive meaning. If it's relevant, > here is something that I wrote some time back in a trademark affidavit: > > ". . . iteratives like "Bang-Bang" and "Hear, Hear" may be repeated > indefinitely, but the lexeme, or meaningful linguistic unit that qualifies > as a dictionary entry, is composed of the same word repeated once. . . . > The odd triple formation, as in "Oyez, oyez, oyez!" is usually a > rhetorical, poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the > bells, bells, bells" (Edith Sitwell?), "the hoop-hoop-hoop of the > large-bodied, grey-bearded monkey" (R. H. Elliot)." > > Thomas Paikeday > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonathan Lighter" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:50 AM > Subject: Ho ho ho! > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Ho ho ho! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OED has "ho ho (ho) ! " as far back as the Middle Ages, but for some >> reason restricts it to a representation of "derisive laughter." >> >> Damn, Santa ! I thought you were laughing *with* us ! Sheesh ! >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! >> > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:33:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:33:15 -0500 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" In-Reply-To: <13e.bc4c951.2f2e5e02@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:57 AM -0500 1/30/05, Steve Boatti wrote: >What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered if >it's related to the name of the Japanese car. > Isn't it directly from Ahura-Mazda, Zoroastrian god of light? (Sorry for inaccuracies in the spelling or mythology, but I think that's the basic idea.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:36:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:36:23 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: <027401c506e5$f6234070$97406395@paikeday> Message-ID: At 11:08 AM -0500 1/30/05, Thomas Paikeday wrote: >As a lexicographer, I'd say "ho ho ho" should be a dictionary >entry/definition because of its distinctive meaning. If it's relevant, here >is something that I wrote some time back in a trademark affidavit: > >". . . iteratives like "Bang-Bang" and "Hear, Hear" may be repeated >indefinitely, but the lexeme, or meaningful linguistic unit that qualifies >as a dictionary entry, is composed of the same word repeated once. . . . The >odd triple formation, as in "Oyez, oyez, oyez!" is usually a rhetorical, >poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, >bells" (Edith Sitwell?), I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". LH From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:44:07 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:44:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Authoritarianism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: authoritarianism (OED 1909) 1902 _Amer. Jrnl. Theology_ VI. 451 (JSOTR) The historic Protestant theory of the sources of religious knowledge has been an unstable compromise between rationalism and authoritarianism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:49:14 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:49:14 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <20050130050011.8E487B28C5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jim Landau suggests: >>> When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why don't you simply call it a "guttural"? <<< "Guttural" means 'of/in the throat', and is widely (mis)used by nonlinguists to describe any vocal sound considered rough or savage, including some that are not "in the throat" at all. Why not accurately call it a voiceless velar fricative? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:50:46 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:50:46 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, > >bells" (Edith Sitwell?), > > I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". You are clearly both wrong. All quotations are derived from Irish sources, as I demonstrate in my forthcoming quotation dictionary. Neither Sitwell nor Poe was Irish. Q.E.D. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:52:46 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:52:46 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050130050011.8E487B28C5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray-vo': >>> I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: My mother told me to pick the very best one O-U-T spells out goes YOU! It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. <<< If the rhythm were maintained it would be easier to predict in real time (or, as we used to say, on the fly) where the count would end up. ISTM that it's less predictable this way, and so a desirable characteristic (a "survival trait") in a counting-out verse. mark by hand From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 17:01:48 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:01:48 -0800 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>> poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, >>> bells, >>> bells" (Edith Sitwell?), >> >> I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". > > You are clearly both wrong. All quotations are derived from Irish > sources, as I demonstrate in my forthcoming quotation dictionary. > Neither > Sitwell nor Poe was Irish. What makes you so sure? I haven't thought through Sitwell yet -- I suggest a long hard look at the Sit- element -- but Poe is obviously Pogue, from an Irish word meaning 'kiss'. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells" is pretty much the only occasion for most people to utter, or hear, the wonderful word "tintinnabulation" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 17:05:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:05:08 -0800 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:01 AM, I wrote: > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells"... oops: *Pogue's* "The Bells". From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 17:07:13 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:07:13 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > What makes you so sure? I haven't thought through Sitwell yet -- I > suggest a long hard look at the Sit- element -- but Poe is obviously > Pogue, from an Irish word meaning 'kiss'. Of course... I forgot that not only are all words are Irish in origin and all quotations Irish in origin, but all names are Irish in origin as well. Fred O'Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred O'Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 30 17:12:22 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:12:22 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: <186201EA-72E1-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 09:05:08AM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:01 AM, I wrote: > > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells"... > > oops: *Pogue's* "The Bells". Pogue Mahone is, I believe, his full name. Jesse Sheidlower OED From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Sun Jan 30 17:30:23 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:30:23 -0500 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" In-Reply-To: <20050130163309.08FC07AE68@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: From what I see on the Internet, it is something of a marketo-mytho-etymology from the get-go. So 'Ahura Mazda' does not mean god of light until General Electric gets involved? I can't vouch for it. I only know what I read in the funny papers. see: Selection below from http://www3.sympatico.ca/zoroastrian/topic.htm: Zarathushtra was the first to introduce a novel way of thinking and a completely new philosophy of life. He taught that there is only ONE God whom he called Ahura Mazda. This term consists of two Avestan (a language used during the time of Zarathushtra) words, Ahura and Mazda. The first word Ahura was already used by the pre-Zoroastrians for their God and Zarathushtra introduced the concept of God as the creator who infused life into the physical world. This is probably why many scholars have derived the word Ahura from the root Ahu meaning life giving force and translate it to mean Lord. The new word, Mazda, that Zarathutra introduced means super-intellect or supreme wisdom. Hence the term Ahura Mazda means Lord of Wisdom. (GE had named their light bulb Mazda to honor the God of Light, probably in the misconception that Mazda means light. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 30 17:57:56 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:56 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: <7e65f0abb27ad5d2e1fb4acbaf3ff072@rcn.com> Message-ID: >-Wilson Gray writes: >I was completely unaware of the term "nigger toe" till I was in the >Army in 1961. A white, fellow G.I., also from Texas, explained it to >me. Of course, once I'd heard the explanation, the relevance of the >usage was immediately obvious. I have no idea what a "coneflower" is, >so you've lost me on that one. However, I do know "niggerhead," but >primarily as a literary term for an underwater obstruction that can rip >out the bottom of a commercial fishing boat. > ~~~~~~~~~ Coneflowers are composites. The one in question, /Rudbeckia occidentalis/, has a dome-shaped disc and is missing ray flowers altogether. Sort of like Echinacea or Black-eyed susan without the outer ring of petals. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 18:09:00 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:09:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Liberalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: liberalism (OED 1819) 1817 _Times_ 29 Dec. 2 Liberalism, the love of country, the feeling of duty, have little to do with this extraordinary division. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 18:30:32 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:30:32 -0800 Subject: "bait and switch" on Language Log Message-ID: a version of my posting here on 1/23/05 (and larry horn's response to it): http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001858.html arnold From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 30 18:47:37 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:47:37 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, >> >bells" (Edith Sitwell?), >> >> I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". > >You are clearly both wrong. All quotations are derived from Irish >sources, as I demonstrate in my forthcoming quotation dictionary. Neither >Sitwell nor Poe was Irish. Q.E.D. > >Fred Shapiro > ~~~~~~~~ IF IRISH, I don't suppose it was: The bells of Shandon That sound so grand on The pleasant waters Of the River Lea by slips-my-mind? This was the first thing that occurred to me! A. Murie From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 30 18:59:52 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:59:52 -0600 Subject: Antedating of "Executive Privilege", complicit Message-ID: >From the Hein Online legal journal database: 22 Harv. L. Rev. 377 (1908-1909) p. 377 "When only attendance ad testificandum is required, executive privilege is not as well established either in reason or in practice, but as a general rule the court should assume that the executive is acting properly and that his absence is due to his official duties or engagements rather than to contempt of court." Note that this database also has some antedatings of "complicit" beyond what Fred has already posted, but they are all of the French word. The first English usage is 1935. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Fred Shapiro Sent: Sun 1/30/2005 8:30 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Executive Privilege" executive privilege (OED 1940) 1912 Francis Wharton _A Treatise on the Law of Evidence in Criminal Issues_ (ed. 10) 2323 (Making of Modern Law) EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, against testimony of public matters. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:38:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:38:09 -0800 Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women Message-ID: What I heard in the '70s (as a brag) was "Once black, never back." An old movie provided "I like my coffee like I like my women: hot, blonde, and sweet." And who could forget Goddess Judy Tenuta (she of the eternal accordion) saying (mid '90s) "I like my men the way I like my subways! Hot [accordion discord here] ! Packed [accordion discord] ! And coming every five minutes !" JL Jerry E Kane wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jerry E Kane Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Los Angeles circa 1940/1950, we used several expressions: When asked, "How do you like your coffee?", the response would be: " I like my coffee just like my women, hot, black and only costs a dime." Another expression used when alluding to a sexual liason with a black woman: "Once you go black, you never come back." Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:40:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:40:09 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: I couldn't remember whether "velar" was correct, so I just didn't say nuthin'. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were >> using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed >> telephony" >> and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault >> rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or > simply a > "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a > particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime > around 1980, due > to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system > in which > a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called > "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of > limited range so > that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the > area > simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell > to another, > your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell > you are > entering (hence the need for computer power). > > The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they > expect > to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either > non-existent or > is out of service due to battle damage. > > A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets > had over > the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of > Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German > radiotelephones. > > When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why > don't > you simply call it a "guttural"? > > - James A. Landau Jeez, I understand all of that, Jimbo. Clearly, a military telephonic radio from fifty years ago the size of an overnight bag and weighing fifty pounds or more is not the same as one of today's cellular telephones, any more than a Model-T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. But the development of one did lead to the development of the other. And yes, I know that the argument, post hoc, ergo propter hoc, is logically meaningless, just as is the concept of the "doorway drug." So what if 70% or whatever percentage of heroin addicts started out smoking pot, given that 100% per cent of them started out by being born? Clearly, birth is a better indicator of future narcotic use than grass-use can ever be. As for the Russian [x], I don't simply call it a "guttural" because it's a velar. -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:41:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:41:19 -0800 Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't Message-ID: Yes, so reviled is "ain't." JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FUZZY WUZZY: ... _Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2oe7tDcJpnAoDSNq4Zbmrbl9tCUTeh+JM0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, July 31, 1942 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fuzzy+wuzzy+and+bear+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fuzzy+wuzzy+ and+bear+AND) ...Wis. FUZZY WUZZY was a BEAR; FUZZY WUZZY had no hair; FUZZY WUZZY wasn't.....very FUZZY was 'e? Anna Carol Kingdon Dear.. {g. 8, col. 1: Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair; Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't very fuzzy, was 'e?--Anna Carol Kingdon. ... ... ... TEN LITTLE INDIANS: ... _RECENT FICTION._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=109775174&SrchMode=1&sid=19&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107070952&clien tId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 17, 1880. p. 4 (1 page) ... Mr. Russell's story is something like the refrain of the "Ten Little Indians," only the savages are of a seafaring character. ... ... ... DON'T SAY AIN'T ... I like this one from MISS MARY MAC, pg. 38, but I couldn't find it on the databases. ... ... Don't say ain't, your mother will faint, And your father will fall in a bucket of paint. Your sister will cry, your brother will die, And you dog will call the FBI. ... (My dog will call the FBI??--ed.) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:51:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:51:45 -0800 Subject: "Complicit" Message-ID: As many will recognize, this word has become something os a buzz word in the area of sociocultural literary theory and kindred realms. For example, if you read and enjoy a murder mystery, you are "complicit" in societal violence. If you don't enjoy it, you're still highly complicit if you bought the book, because the profit reaped from your payment encourages the production of still more violent tales and images in society, which are complicit in the accomplishment of real violence. If you borrowed the book from the library, you are most deeply complicit because you are contributing to the perceived popularity of such books, leading to the library's purchase of further violence-encouraging publications, and the pattern contuinues. Another example: suppose you like NFL football. That makes you complicit in societal violence because...Aw, the hell with it. JL Fred Shapiro wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Fred Shapiro Subject: "Complicit" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: complicit (not in OED) 1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein Online) Consumers, as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be almost solely the cause for any misperceptions that occur. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:55:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:55:16 -0800 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" Message-ID: Yes. That's what the antique bulb collectors' websites say. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Mazda bulbs" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 10:57 AM -0500 1/30/05, Steve Boatti wrote: >What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered if >it's related to the name of the Japanese car. > Isn't it directly from Ahura-Mazda, Zoroastrian god of light? (Sorry for inaccuracies in the spelling or mythology, but I think that's the basic idea.) Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:14:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:14:02 -0500 Subject: "bait and switch" on Language Log In-Reply-To: <0663E3EC-72ED-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:30 AM -0800 1/30/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a version of my posting here on 1/23/05 (and larry horn's response to >it): > >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001858.html > >arnold Thanks for the pub. Did I really say that Paul Krugman and other administration critics were "font of" the _bait and switch_ construction? Yes, as the archives reveal, I surely did. Argle bargle. Larry, who's font of Times New Roman but has a crush on Comic Sans MS From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:16:00 2005 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:16:00 -0800 Subject: antedate for "cover girl" (1899) Message-ID: Poem in the NYT Jul. 30, 1899 entitled "To A Magazine Cover Girl," which begins: I'll not gainsay you your beauty, for indeed you're wondrous fair, But tell me, oh, I pray you, how you ever fix your hair? The OED has 1915. Geoff Nunberg From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 30 20:18:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:18:17 -0500 Subject: give...five Message-ID: OED deosn't seem to have an entry for _give (me) five_. It's earliest date for _high five_ is 1980. The following two entries offer an interesting possible foundation for _high five_. >From _Current Slang_ (U. of South Dakota, 1970, Vol. V, no. 3, p 7): "give ... five, v. To off an open-handed slap as a handshake. --High school males, Chicano, New Mexico" >From _Current Slang_ (U. of South Dakota, 1970, Vol. V, no. 2, p 7): "give five, v. To express agreement and comraderie by an open-palmed slap." Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:20:28 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:20:28 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Authoritarianism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: authoritarianism (OED 1909) 1886 _Liberty (Not the Daughter But the Mother of Order_ 17 July 4 (American Periodical Series) In thus "assuming to plumb" Powderly, was he "in the direct line of authoritarianism"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:27:16 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:27:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Battered Child" In-Reply-To: <0D134172.7CDEB374.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > [1962 C. H. KEMPE et al. in Jrnl. Amer. Med. Assoc. 7 July 17/1 The > battered-child syndrome is a term used by us to characterize a clinical > condition in young children who have received serious physical abuse, > generally from a parent or foster parent.] 1963 Brit. Med. Jrnl. 21 Dec. > 1558 (heading) Multiple epiphysial injuries in babies (‘*battered > baby’ syndrome). Ibid. 1560/1 The x-ray changes in the ‘battered > baby’ are..like those often described in infantile scurvy. 1854 _Graham's American Monthly Magazine_ Jan. (American Periodical Series) I wish ... that one might read those horrible police reports every morning, with some sort of composure, feeling that the mangled wives and battered children ... were really not of the same flesh and blood as your own smiling Mrs. Jones. Fred Shapiro From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jan 30 20:37:03 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:37:03 -0800 Subject: Nouse (2003) In-Reply-To: <0663E3EC-72ED-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: "This application--called Nouse, for nose as a mouse--tracks the movements of your nose, and was developed by Dmitry Gorodnichy. You can play NosePong, a nose-driven version of the Pong video game, or test your ability to paint with your nose or to write with your nose." "Recent Advances in Computer Vision," Massimo Picardi and Tony Jan, The Industrial Physicist, Vol. 9, No. 1, Feb-Mar 2003, http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-1/p18.html "A computer vision scientist at the National Research Council of Canada made headlines a couple of months ago with the introduction of the nouse--a system that allows for cursor control by tracking the tip of the user's nose." "Communications of the ACM" (Association for Computing Machinery), Vol. 48, No. 1, Jan 2005, p. 9. There are about 16 Usenet hits for the word on Google Groups. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:42:24 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:42:24 -0800 Subject: "bait and switch" on Language Log In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Larry Horn addressed me: > Thanks for the pub. Did I really say that Paul Krugman and other > administration critics were "font of" the _bait and switch_ > construction? Yes, as the archives reveal, I surely did. Argle > bargle. > > Larry, who's font of Times New Roman but has a crush on Comic Sans MS oh crap. i should have silently corrected that, but i didn't catch it. i'll fix it now. for about a minute, my previous LL posting was out there on the web under the title "Contaminating identies". arnold, erroneous From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:49:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Nouse (2003) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0800 1/30/05, Dave Wilton wrote: >"This application--called Nouse, for nose as a mouse--tracks the movements >of your nose, and was developed by Dmitry Gorodnichy. You can play NosePong, >a nose-driven version of the Pong video game, or test your ability to paint >with your nose or to write with your nose." "Recent Advances in Computer >Vision," Massimo Picardi and Tony Jan, The Industrial Physicist, Vol. 9, No. >1, Feb-Mar 2003, http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-1/p18.html > >"A computer vision scientist at the National Research Council of Canada made >headlines a couple of months ago with the introduction of the nouse--a >system that allows for cursor control by tracking the tip of the user's >nose." "Communications of the ACM" (Association for Computing Machinery), >Vol. 48, No. 1, Jan 2005, p. 9. > >There are about 16 Usenet hits for the word on Google Groups. Sounds intriguing. Does one's nose need to be hooked up to a USB port, though? Sounds uncomfortable. L From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Sun Jan 30 21:12:10 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: Children's Chants Songs Games live sound field recording Message-ID: hi, i'm really into this topic - its something i've been thinking about for 30 years. hope this might be of interest to some folks re: Children's Chants, Songs ,Games, "Domino" ©1990 by me http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/_DOMINO_.html Traditional Children's Songs,Proverbs, and Culture From the United States Virgin Islands collected by me 1977 - 79 60 Traditional Children's Songs, Games, Proverbs 45 minute Live Sound Field Recording ©1979 Description - all the stuff in there http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/descript.html can see and hear both Ding Dong and Down In The River then check out the National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html from the playground to the cyberplayground best, karen <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:30:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bureaucracy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: bureaucracy (OED 1837) 1826 _Times_ 22 Dec. 2 We have then to defend the monastic Government ... against the administrative maxims of Ministerial bureaucracy. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:33:10 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:33:10 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Industrial Revolution" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: industrial revolution (OED 1848) 1847 _Times_ 29 Nov. 5 An industrial revolution has taken place throughout Europe, and Flanders has not kept pace with its progress either in agricultural or manufacturing improvement. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:35:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:35:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: conservatism (OED 1835) 1832 _Times_ 17 Oct. 3 The reformers, disgusted by Cobbett's coarseness and want of principle on the one hand, and Loyd's modified conservatism on the other, saw in Thomson just the sort of man they desired to have. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:38:28 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:38:28 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Radicalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: radicalism (OED 1820) 1819 _Times_ 11 Nov. 3 If Ministers and Magistrates will take the hint, this meeting furnishes a lesson to prevent them from rousing the slumbering fire of radicalism to fresh fury, by gagging bills, suspension acts, and the sword. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:42:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:42:34 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cosmopolitan" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cosmopolitan, adj. (OED 1844) 1833 _Times_ 5 Feb. 3 The institutions of his own country are, of course, not excluded from the benefit of his cosmopolitan sympathy. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:48:01 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:48:01 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Plutocrat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: plutocrat (OED 1850) 1841 _Times_ 23 Apr. 5 Conservatism ... is not the creed of the aristocrat or the plutocrat, who regard the distinctions of rank, the privileges of place, or the rights of property, as the things best worth preserving. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:52:38 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:52:38 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Reactionary" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: reactionary (OED 1840) 1815 _Times_ 30 Oct. 2 Many _employees_ have reported, that the elections of the department have been conducted in a completely re-actionary spirit. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:54:49 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:54:49 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Protectionism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: protectionism (OED 1852) 1846 _Times_ 12 Jan. 4 We must pronounce it mere obstinacy or mere fatuity to charge Sir ROBERT PEEL with the sin of inveterate protectionism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 30 23:01:14 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0500 Subject: give...five Message-ID: Dear All, Now that I'm home and looked in HDAS, I find it's even older. That's what happens when one doesn't check all the sources. Sorry to all whose time I wasted. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 23:59:49 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:59:49 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Journalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: journalism (OED 1833) 1827 _Times_ 22 Dec. 2 The "journalism" of the _Moniteur_ and _Gazette de France_ is resorted to by the same ingenious Minister, as the organ through which their own profession and privileges are held up to alternate fear and scorn. Journalism, it appears, in the eyes of M. de VILLELE, ought to resemble Irish reciprocity. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 01:13:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:13:23 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_"Mazda_bulbs"?= In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6o5e9a@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Steve Boatti wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Steve Boatti > Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Mazda=20bulbs"?= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered > if > it's related to the name of the Japanese car. > > Steve Boatti > sjb72 at columbia.edu > Isn't Ahura-Mazda the name of the god of goodness and light in the pre-Islamic religion of Persia/Iran, whose name escapes me? Its modern form is the religion of the Parsees/Farsees of India. -Wilson Gray From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 01:28:15 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:28:15 -0500 Subject: "Ching-Ching Chinaman" (1897) and American Folklore Society Message-ID: AMERICAN FOLKLORE SOCIETY Roger D. Abrahams edited two books for the American Folklore Society. One was JUMP-ROPE RHYMES: A DICTONARY (1969) and another is COUNTING-OUT RHYMES: A DICTIONARY (1980). NYU has the former at the New School only, but I've read portions at the NYPL. Abrahams cites collections of books, but many of these rhymes and sayings first appeared in regional NEWSPAPERS. We now have digitized newspapers, so we should be improving on every entry. I don't know what Fred Shapiro plans to include from all this, but certain rhymes are famous. "I scream" was first cited here from 1947. "I should marry a millionaire" has a 1940 date. "Acca, bacca" is from North Carolina in 1948. "Charlie Chaplin sat on a pin" and "Charlie Chaplin went (came) to France" are both cited from 1926. "Spell Chicago" and "Spell New York" are both cited from 1947. "Cinderella, dressed in yellow" is from 1926. "I see London, I see stars, I see someone's underdrawers" is from 1963. --------------------------------------------------------------- CHING CHING CHINAMAN "Ching Ching Chinaman" is probably one of the most important of children's rhymes, just after they were taught "Ten Little Niggers." Oh, that innocent age. It's clearly from the 1800s, but JUMP-ROPE RHYMES doesn't help much here...The Library of Congress's American Memory seems to be down at the moment. JUMP-ROPE RHYMES: A DICTIONARY edited by Roger D. Abrahams Published for the American Folklore SOciety by the University of Texas Press, Austin & London 1969 Pg. 29: Ching, chang, Chinaman, Chop, chop, chop, Eating Candy at the candy shop. ...Abrahams, _SFQ_, 27 (1963), 202 [Texas]. Ching, chang, Chinaman bought a toy doll, Washed it, dyed it, then caught a cold. Send for the doctor; Doctor wouldn't come Because he had a pimple on his tum-tum-tum. ...Douglas (1916), 95 [London]. "...penny doll....and called it penny poll." ...Sutton-Smith, _WF_, 12 (1953), 21 [New Zealand]. Pg. 30: Ching, Ching, Chinaman Eats dead rats, Swallows them down Like ginger-snaps! ...Yoffie, _JAF_, 60 (1947), 49 [Missouri]. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A MONOLOGUE UPON CATS.; With Several Incidental Digresions to Other Subjects. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 12, 1897. p. 14 (1 page): [Illegible--ed.] she was a little girl, that was at the time when the children wore their hair braided down their backs and my little niece called after a little girl on the street, "Ching, Ching, Chinaman!" and all about a pigtail, and the little girl hit her, and she fell down and hurt her hip. (GOOGLE) http://www.smartfellowspress.com/Invisible/Chapter2.htm "Ching Ching Chinaman sitting on a fence Trying to make a dollar out of fifteen cents. Along came a Chinaman and hit him on the head. Ching Ching Chinaman fell down dead." (GOOGLE) http://faculty.virginia.edu/vafolk/ffv1a.htm Rhyming Verses: Tippy recited verses to accompany his dancing.The purpose seemed to be two-fold: while maintaining the rhythm of his dance with these stanzas, Tippy added to the overall comic nature of his performances. Some of his rhyming verses were comic variations of standard folk rhymes like: [End page 37] Ching, Ching, Chinaman, sittin' on the fence, Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents. Which became: Ching, Ching, Chinaman, sittin' on the fence, If you ain't got a dollar give me fifteen cents. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: The Best short stories of 1917 Author(s): O'Brien, Edward Joseph Harrington,; 1890-1941. Publication: [S.l.] : Houghton, Year: 1918 Description: xxvi, 482 p. Language: English Series: Variation: Corefiche.; Short stories.; Phase 8 ;; 2127. Contents: Excursion / Edwina Stanton Babcock -- Onnie / Thomas Beer -- Cup of tea / Maxwell Struthers Burt -- Lonely places / Francis Buzzell -- Boys will be boys / Irvin S. Cobb -- Laughter / Charles Caldwell Dobie -- Emperor of Elam / H.G. Dwight -- Gay old dog / Edna Ferber -- Knight's move / Katharine Fullerton Gerould -- Jury of her peers / Susan Glaspell -- Bunker mouse / Frederick Stuart Greene -- Rainbow Pete / Richard Matthews Hallet -- Get ready the wreaths / Fannie Hurst -- Strange looking man / Fanny Kemble Johnson --Caller in the night / Burton Kline -- Interval / Vincent O'Sullivan -- Certain rich man- / Lawrence Perry -- Path of glory / Mary Brecht Pulver -- Ching, ching, chinaman / Wilbur Daniel Steele -- None so blind / Mary Synon. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Ching ching Chinaman / Author: Gottschalk, Louis F.; Unsell, Eve. Publication: New York : Jerome H. Remick & Co., 1923 Document: English : Musical Score : Printed music : Songs (LITERATURE ONLINE) Foster, Stephen Collins, 1826-1864: DON'T BET YOUR MONEY ON DE SHANGHAI. [from The Music of Stephen C. Foster [1990]] [Editorial note: 1Kb] 1 De Shanghai chicken when you put him in de pit 2 He'll eat a loaf of bread up but he can't fight a bit 3 De Shanghai fiddle is a funny little thing 4 And ebry time you tune him up he goes ching! ching! Chorus--- 5 Oh! de Shanghai! 6 Don't bet your money on de Shanghai! 7 Take de little chicken in de middle of de ring 8 But don't bet your money on de Shanghai. (LITERAURE ONLINE) 1. Brough, Robert B. (Robert Barnabas), 1828-1860 [Author Page] / Brough, William, 1826-1870 [Author Page] The second calender [1853] 167Kb THE SECOND CALENDER; And the Queen of Beauty, WHO HAD THE FIGHT WITH THE GENIE. AN EXTRAVAGANZA, In Two Acts, [Durable URL for this text] Found 2 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] ACT II. [Durable URL for this text] SCENE. I. [Durable URL for this text] ...friends to see; [Stage direction] Ching-a-ring-a-ring- ching-ching-ching-cha, Chinamen arrive from Pekin far;... ...friends to see; [Stage direction] Ching-a-ring-a-ring-ching- ching-ching-cha, Chinamen arrive from Pekin far;... From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 01:28:53 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:28:53 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:05 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho > ho ho!] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:01 AM, I wrote: > >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells"... > > oops: *Pogue's* "The Bells". > The Pogues made a recording of this? I did not know this. [Historical note: The Pogues originally styled themselves as the "Pogue Mahone," until some Irish-speaking person pointed out to the English censors that the sound - though not the spelling, of course - "Pogue Mahone" is a very close approximation of the Irish translation of "Kiss my ass!"] -Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 31 01:34:15 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:34:15 -0500 Subject: Slang of 1912 (including "pizzazz") Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Mansfield News_ (Mansfield OH), 7 Dec. 1912: p. 10(?), col. 3: << The Clean Language League of America, which is plum nuts about being dead set against slang, cuss words, risque stories, purple ragtime and wriggly cabaret shindigs -- not because it cares a whoop, but because such things always sound like heck to strangers -- held a wild-eyed jamboree here tonight and cooked up plans for a grand hallelujah campaign to induce everybody to climb into the pure-words wagon and swear off on throwing the lowbrow lingo. Quite a considerable bunch of language bugs took the splurge and the enthusiasm was all to the velvet. According to the dope that was passed out today by one of the high moguls, Tommy Russell, the main doing tonight was to pick out a publicity gang which will have the job of throwing this line of bull into every state in the union, being particularly strong on the schools and colleges, and not passing up the educational hangouts for skirts. The side show of the movement will be to go after the kind of music that you hear in the all-night dumps and the public hog-rassles. Brother Russell declared, bo, that his crowd had already framed it up with some of the big guys in the music world to put the kibosh on this line of junk, and that it was only a question of time before they would have such pieces as "When I Get You Alone Tonight" completely on the pizzazz. Another idea of the league is to put a straw boss in every other state for the purpose of hitching up with mutts as dippy as himself in order to help the good word along. This state gink is to be a sort of an Old-Miss-Over-All and the purity expert in his particular neck of the woods. The crowd passed a whole lot of hifalutin resolutions. They said that it made them as sore as a goat to have to hear mothers using slang in the presence of the kids, because it was a 10 to 1 shot that it would put the little duffers' morals on the blink. They said that sister must not say "fudge" -- not even when there was nobody but guineas around -- because "fudge" wasn't a proper dido to find in the flossie's vocabulary. They pulled quite a bunch of stuff about what was O.K. for little brother to let himself loose on, but they swore to goodness that "doggone" was a doggone bad thing to say, and that "gosh darn" was putrid, and that "hully gee" and "I'll be swimdiggled" were expressions that a mucker might use, but that a giltedged young gazabo would never attempt to play up, even before a coon. The language [sic] said that fathers must not say --!**?!--!, no matter if a guy waltzed up and walloped poor old pop on the beezer, and that only pie-trimmers and hash-slingers would ever condescend to come across with such rough stiff as "Aw, nix on that," "Cheese it" and "Shut your trap." >> ---------- I think this is an early appearance of "pizzazz" but the word does not seem to be in its usual (later) sense. "Hog-wrestle" and the interjection "fudge" seem to be early, too, and maybe some other items. -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 01:36:02 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:36:02 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray-vo': >>>> > I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I > see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I > learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: > > My mother told me to pick the very best one > O-U-T spells out goes YOU! > > It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include > a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. > <<< > > If the rhythm were maintained it would be easier to predict in real > time > (or, as we used to say, on the fly) where the count would end up. ISTM > that > it's less predictable this way, and so a desirable characteristic (a > "survival trait") in a counting-out verse. > > > mark by hand > That is quite obvious, Mark. Well, at least it *became* quite obvious, once you had pointed it out.;-) -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 01:47:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:47:04 -0800 Subject: Slang of 1912 (including "pizzazz") Message-ID: Really takes me back! JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Slang of 1912 (including "pizzazz") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From N'archive: ---------- _Mansfield News_ (Mansfield OH), 7 Dec. 1912: p. 10(?), col. 3: << The Clean Language League of America, which is plum nuts about being dead set against slang, cuss words, risque stories, purple ragtime and wriggly cabaret shindigs -- not because it cares a whoop, but because such things always sound like heck to strangers -- held a wild-eyed jamboree here tonight and cooked up plans for a grand hallelujah campaign to induce everybody to climb into the pure-words wagon and swear off on throwing the lowbrow lingo. Quite a considerable bunch of language bugs took the splurge and the enthusiasm was all to the velvet. According to the dope that was passed out today by one of the high moguls, Tommy Russell, the main doing tonight was to pick out a publicity gang which will have the job of throwing this line of bull into every state in the union, being particularly strong on the schools and colleges, and not passing up the educational hangouts for skirts. The side show of the movement will be to go after the kind of music that you hear in the all-night dumps and the public hog-rassles. Brother Russell declared, bo, that his crowd had already framed it up with some of the big guys in the music world to put the kibosh on this line of junk, and that it was only a question of time before they would have such pieces as "When I Get You Alone Tonight" completely on the pizzazz. Another idea of the league is to put a straw boss in every other state for the purpose of hitching up with mutts as dippy as himself in order to help the good word along. This state gink is to be a sort of an Old-Miss-Over-All and the purity expert in his particular neck of the woods. The crowd passed a whole lot of hifalutin resolutions. They said that it made them as sore as a goat to have to hear mothers using slang in the presence of the kids, because it was a 10 to 1 shot that it would put the little duffers' morals on the blink. They said that sister must not say "fudge" -- not even when there was nobody but guineas around -- because "fudge" wasn't a proper dido to find in the flossie's vocabulary. They pulled quite a bunch of stuff about what was O.K. for little brother to let himself loose on, but they swore to goodness that "doggone" was a doggone bad thing to say, and that "gosh darn" was putrid, and that "hully gee" and "I'll be swimdiggled" were expressions that a mucker might use, but that a giltedged young gazabo would never attempt to play up, even before a coon. The language [sic] said that fathers must not say --!**?!--!, no matter if a guy waltzed up and walloped poor old pop on the beezer, and that only pie-trimmers and hash-slingers would ever condescend to come across with such rough stiff as "Aw, nix on that," "Cheese it" and "Shut your trap." >> ---------- I think this is an early appearance of "pizzazz" but the word does not seem to be in its usual (later) sense. "Hog-wrestle" and the interjection "fudge" seem to be early, too, and maybe some other items. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 01:51:17 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:51:17 -0500 Subject: "I see London, I see France" (1967) Message-ID: MISC. LONDON TIMES--It looks like NYU has stopped subscribing to this, so I can't check "I see London, I see stars" and "I see London, I see France." Is NYU saving money, George Thompson? PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--Wasn't the Boston Globe supposed to arrive some time in January?...Aren't they supposed to finish the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune this year? Wouldn't it help if ProQuest ADDED SOME NEW MATERIAL FOR 2005?? -------------------------------------------------------------- "I SEE LONDON, I SEE FRANCE" (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Playground Daily News Wednesday, June 28, 1967 Fort Walton Beach, Florida ...to hIs teenage granddaughter: "I SEE LONDON, I SEE France I sI.'0 someone's.....good graces of a southern neIghbor to SEE to It that harassed and ImprIsoned.. Pg. 4, col. 1: The other day we heard a grandfather reach back into his mental notebook and come up with this very timely, appropriate limerick as he spoke to his teenage granddaughter: "I see London, I see France I see someone's underpants."--Springfield (Minn.) Advance-Press From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 02:05:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:05:50 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh. Okay. I got it. WRT the underwater obstruction, the point is that such an object is very hard, as the head of a black person was once widely reputed to be. It was believed that a black person could suffer no harm from a good beating, as long as all blows were directed to and landed on his head. The uncharted underwater mountain peak that the submarine struck is a perfect example of a niggerhead in the nautical sense. About thirty years ago, former Senator Hollings, in a speech in which he abjured his former stand-in-the-schoolhouse-door defense of segregation, noted that he had seen with his own eyes black people who had been beaten into imbecility by white people who truly believed that they were just working off a little excess energy, having a little fun, and not doing any permanent damage. -Wilson Gray On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:57 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> -Wilson Gray writes: >> I was completely unaware of the term "nigger toe" till I was in the >> Army in 1961. A white, fellow G.I., also from Texas, explained it to >> me. Of course, once I'd heard the explanation, the relevance of the >> usage was immediately obvious. I have no idea what a "coneflower" is, >> so you've lost me on that one. However, I do know "niggerhead," but >> primarily as a literary term for an underwater obstruction that can >> rip >> out the bottom of a commercial fishing boat. >> > ~~~~~~~~~ > Coneflowers are composites. The one in question, /Rudbeckia > occidentalis/, > has a dome-shaped disc and is missing ray flowers altogether. Sort of > like > Echinacea or Black-eyed susan without the outer ring of petals. > AM > > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 31 02:37:08 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:37:08 -0500 Subject: "I see London, I see France" (1967) Message-ID: This I remember from my elementary school days. It must be 1950 anyway. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Sunday, January 30, 2005 at 8:51 PM -0500 wrote: >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Playground Daily News Wednesday, June 28, 1967 Fort Walton Beach, >Florida >...to hIs teenage granddaughter: "I SEE LONDON, I SEE France I sI.'0 >someone's.....good graces of a southern neIghbor to SEE to It that >harassed and ImprIsoned.. > >Pg. 4, col. 1: >The other day we heard a grandfather reach back into his mental notebook >and come up with this very timely, appropriate limerick as he spoke to >his teenage granddaughter: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 02:45:03 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:45:03 -0500 Subject: Pudden Tame (1904) Message-ID: More "Pudden Tame." Don't ask. (GOOGLE) http://landofmagic.co.uk/text_files/Whats%20Your%20Name.txt What's your name? Pudden Tame. What's your other? Bread and Butter. Where do you live? In a sieve. What's your number? Cucumber. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) THE NEW NEIGHBORS.; JIM MAKES HIS DEBUT AND CREATES A SENSATION. MAUDE BAYLISS MOSHER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 27, 1904. p. F5 (1 page): "There's a bricktop, again," sang out the teasing voice. "What's your name?" "Pudden Tame! Ask me again, and I'll tell you the same!" shouted Priscilla, goaded to anger. In the Wake of the News; DO YOU REMEMBER WAY BACK WHEN: Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 21, 1930. p. 28 (1 page): We kids were asked our name by the new kid in the neighborhood, we replied, "Puddin' Tame, ask me again and I'll tell you the same"!--C. V. C. WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE collected by Clifton Johnson edited with an introduction by Carl Withers New York: Columbia University Press 1963 Pg. 118: RHYMES AND JINGLES Question: What's your name? Answer: Pudden tame; Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. Some of the boys give a much ruder answer to this question in these words: John Brown, Ask me again and I'll knock you down. Second form: Question: What's your name? Answer: Pudden tame. Question: What's your natur'? Pg. 119: Answer: Pudden tater. Question: What's your will? Answer: Pudden swill. Third form: Question: What's your name? Answer: Pudden tame. Question: What's your other? Answer: Bread and butter. Question: Where do you live? Answer: In a sieve. Question: What's your number? Answer: Cucumber. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) IN THE ARENA BY EDWIN L. SABIN. Century Illustrated Magazine (1881-1906). New York: May 1904. Vol. VOL. LXVIII, Iss. No. 1; p. 76 (6 pages) Fifth page, page 80: "Say--What's your name?" you inquired, as you had every right to do. "Puddin' tame; ask me again, an' I'll tell you the same," he replied insolently. From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 31 02:48:44 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:48:44 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22smart=22_=3D_=22considerable?= (in number, amount, extent, =?utf-8?Q?etc.)=22?= In-Reply-To: <20050126172832.89765.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My mother (b 1919, Hart Cty, KY) used "smart" in this sense, but, as I recall, usually in the phrase "right smart" to mean something like a goodly amount, more than you might expect. She would use it in phrases such as, "you have to put a right smart of x in y." Jim Stalker stalker at msu.edu James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 03:10:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:10:10 -0500 Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I first heard the "Black/back" saying in July, 1971, at the LSA Summer Linguistics Institute. A white woman from Cleveland, Tennessee, said, "My daddy told me, 'Once you try black, you never go back.'" In those days, Cleveland, TN, was best known as the place where white students rioting against "forced integration" parodied the call - response, "See you later, alligator - After 'while, crocodile" as "See you later, integrator - After 'while, chocolate chile." -Wilson Gray On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Sexual expressions regarding black women > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > What I heard in the '70s (as a brag) was "Once black, never back." > > An old movie provided "I like my coffee like I like my women: hot, > blonde, and sweet." > > And who could forget Goddess Judy Tenuta (she of the eternal > accordion) saying (mid '90s) > > "I like my men the way I like my subways! Hot [accordion discord > here] ! Packed [accordion discord] ! And coming every five minutes > !" > > JL > > Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In Los Angeles circa 1940/1950, we used several expressions: > > When asked, "How do you like your coffee?", the response would be: > > " I like my coffee just like my women, hot, black and only costs a > dime." > > Another expression used when alluding to a sexual liason with a black > woman: > > "Once you go black, you never come back." > > Jerry E Kane > Los Angeles, CA > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 03:12:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:12:58 -0500 Subject: "Two's a couple, Three's a crowd, Four..." (1914) Message-ID: I've seen this one in several collections...Four people on a New York City sidewalk, filled with snow. Seen just this week. WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE collected by Clifton John edited with an introduction by Carl Withers New York: Columbia University Press 1963 Pg. 134: Two's a couple, Three's a crowd, Four on the sidewalk Is never allowed. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A LINE-O'-TYPE OR TWO Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 21, 1914. p. 6 (1 page): _Signs of the Times._ In an Oskaloosa livery barn: "Two's a couple, three's a crowd, four in a buggy is not allowed." Teen Etiquette; Sidewalk Courtesies Kitte Turmell. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 1, 1949. p. G17 (1 page): That childhood chant "two's company, three's a crowd, four on the sidewalk not allowed" is a reminder to divide a foursome, two by two, and to avoid jostling, crowding, or weaving which might make any stranger regret that he or she "met" you, smack-bang, accidentally. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 03:29:30 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:29:30 -0500 Subject: German Irish language scholar Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" In-Reply-To: <20050130050011.8E487B28C5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Daniel Cassidy wrote: >>> << Deir Quiggin fa dtaobh de t´: 'I have not noticed any tendency in Donegal for t´ to pass into t´§ as in parts of Connaught, Manx and Scotch Gaelic. The contact for t´ is however broken very gradually and a glide resembling § isheard.' --Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" The southern Donegal dialect merges with Connaught and a glide resembling § is heard. <<< Daniel, I am cc-ing this to you since I understand that you are now popping onto the subscriber list only long enough to post, then unsubbing. (I do not know of a web term for this behavior, but I might call it "sniping". It is not, IMHO, the behavior of one who wishes to engage in discussion.)) The character I see after "a glide resembling" is the section symbol, resembling a capital S with a doubled midsection. I have no idea what this is supposed to represent phonetically. I would guess, from context, something like the English "sh", a palato-alveolar voiceless fricative; but that's just a guess, and "something like" is hardly precise. -- Mark A. Mandel by hand From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 04:09:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:09:50 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought that the symbol [x] was sufficient. If the symbol is meaningless, what clarification will "voiceless velar fricative" provide? -Wilson On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I couldn't remember whether "velar" was correct, so I just didn't say > nuthin'. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau" >> Subject: Re: hooey >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray >> wrote: >> >>> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were >>> using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed >>> telephony" >>> and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault >>> rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. >> >> No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or >> simply a >> "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a >> particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime >> around 1980, due >> to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system >> in which >> a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called >> "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of >> limited range so >> that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the >> area >> simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell >> to another, >> your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell >> you are >> entering (hence the need for computer power). >> >> The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they >> expect >> to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either >> non-existent or >> is out of service due to battle damage. >> >> A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets >> had over >> the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of >> Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German >> radiotelephones. >> >> When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why >> don't >> you simply call it a "guttural"? >> >> - James A. Landau > > Jeez, I understand all of that, Jimbo. Clearly, a military telephonic > radio from fifty years ago the size of an overnight bag and weighing > fifty pounds or more is not the same as one of today's cellular > telephones, any more than a Model-T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. But > the development of one did lead to the development of the other. And > yes, I know that the argument, post hoc, ergo propter hoc, is logically > meaningless, just as is the concept of the "doorway drug." So what if > 70% or whatever percentage of heroin addicts started out smoking pot, > given that 100% per cent of them started out by being born? Clearly, > birth is a better indicator of future narcotic use than grass-use can > ever be. > > As for the Russian [x], I don't simply call it a "guttural" because > it's a velar. > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 04:16:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:16:44 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people Message-ID: WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE collected by Clifton Johnson edited with an introduction by Carl Withers New York: Columbia University Press 1963 Pg. 132: At picnics you will sometimes hear the children say: Lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade, By an old maid. (...) Here is one way to amuse a child. Clasp your hands with the fingers turned inward and repeat the following ditty, which you illustrate by changing the position of your fingers and hands: Here's the meeeting house, there's the steeple, Look inside and see all the people. Stirred by an old maid? Isn't it usually a kid? (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) THE FIREMEN'S TOURNAMENT BY EUGENE WOOD. McClure's Magazine (1893-1926). New York: Oct 1904. Vol. VOL. XXIII, Iss. No. 6; p. 631 (11 pages) Pg. 633: Tents are raised in the vacant lots along Center Street and counters knocked together for the sale of ice-cold lemonade, lemo, lemo, lemo, made in the shade, with a spade, by an old maid, lemo, lemo. Here y'are now, gents, gitch nice cool drink, on'y five a glass. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) SOME FOURTHS OF JULY THAT THEY WILL NEVER FORGET New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 2, 1905. p. SM3 (1 page): "Here's your ice-cold lemonade, made in the shade--only five cents a glass. Walk up, roll up, tumble up, any way to get up, so that you get your money out." Other 8 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1905. p. B10 (1 page): A carpet-covered corner; A soap-box for a counter; A lemon, a lump of sugar, and A bucketful of water; A boy with face all freckled; And shirt and trousers ragged, With hair uncombed and feet unshod; With voice of power ringing loud, Crying his wares: Cold lemonade! Made fresh and sweet-- Stirred with a spade: At one cent for a guzzle small. And two cents if you drink your fill!" Such is the trade the Summer Boy Doth grow rich by, and much enjoy. --HELENA DAVIS. Served Under a Tree. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 26, 1910. p. 6 (1 page): >From the Newark News. It is open season for: Fried chicken (in a shoe box). Deviled eggs (skewered with toothpicks). Peanut sandwiches. (No, Charles, you remove the oiled paper before you eat them.) Potato salad (including a few ants). Sweet pickles and olives (in a butter boat). Chocolate cake (Smartboy calls it fudge). Watermelon (unripe and warm). Lemonade (stirred with a spade, in the shade, by an old made). Mrs. Donald Ryerson, Mrs. Charles E. Brown Start Journey East NANCY R--. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 10, 1926. p. 31 (1 page): Members of the Omaha Junior League are using a novel idea to swell the coffers of its treasury. They will serve lemonade each Saturday on the tenth tee at the Omaha Country club, asking no set fee for the drinks. As Saturday is men's day only, the "stirred with a spade" probably will bring in an amazing amount of money. STREET CALLS OF THE SOUTH; The Negro Pedler, Using Rhyme, Is an Adept In Advertising His Wares Vocally -- The Psychology of His Slogans New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1927. p. X24 (1 page): "Lemonade--made in the shade--stirred with a spade--lemonade!" As children are used to giving it, there is the news in the fact that it is "stirred by the hand of an old maid," prosaic information in itself and of what allure in the coaxing of a sale can only be imagined. (...) "Green corn--sure as you're born--yard long--ears strong--green corn." Shrine Circus Goes to Childrens Hospital Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 11, 1946. p. A1 (1 page): There was one slight variation: instead of pink lemonade "made in the shade and stirred with a spade," there wa cold milk in sanitary cartons. Juices, Fruits, and Ice Cream Combine In Array of Cooling Summer Drinks; Snowy Citrus Cooler Mint Delight Banana Dream Potion Raspberry Cream Fizz Strawberry Home Soda Fresh Peach Soda Purple Cow Black Cow By Eleanor Richey Johnston Written for The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 30, 1951. p. 10 (1 page) : >From childhood days, when one of summer's recreations was to repeat loudly and monotonously, "Lemonade made in the shade, stirred with a spade--" to adults, this beerage has been a smacking favorite. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Stevens Point Daily Journal Thursday, October 13, 1910 Stevens Point, Wisconsin ...lemo, lemonAde, MAde in the shAde, STIRRED WITH A spAde Five cents A big.....this most Interesting fungi, they mAy WITH A good book And An occAsionAl hunt.. Pg. 3?, col. 1: No one knows who invented the (Col. 2--ed.) glad refrain of the lemonade stand barker, who in stentorian tones, calls: "Lemo, lemo, lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade-- Five cents a big glass!" (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Clearfield Progress Saturday, October 28, 1944 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...THIS IS THE Church. THIS IS THE STEEPLE, Open THE Doors and THEre Are.....nade of THE tools and wea (ab.) 37 THIS unit IS a part of THE forces of THE.. Pg. 4, col. 1: One of the more intriguing bits of literature which Dr. (Dwight J.--ed.) Bradley has put out is a 16-page size leaflet bearing the old nursery rhyme title, "This is the Church, This Is the Steeple, Open the Doors...and There Are the People." Portsmouth Herald Thursday, November 04, 1954 Portsmouth, New Hampshire ...here's THE STEEPLE. Open THE doors AND SEE ALL THE PEOPLE." Unconsciously, Dr.....THE difference in his case is that ALL THE "PEOPLE" are sprawled on THE.. Pg. 5, col. 1: There's a game adults play with children to amuse them. Clasping the hands with fingers entwined inside the palms, they maneuver them, chanting: "Here's the church and here's the steeple. Open the doors and see all the people." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 04:22:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:22:50 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6hd68j@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: Very interesting. Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a clue. -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:37 AM, Patti J. Kurtz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" > Subject: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a > "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth > ministries web site. But it might be of interest: > > http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > Patti Kurtz > Minot State University > -- > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > > Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 04:57:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:57:18 -0500 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) Message-ID: I don't know if Fred Shapiro wants this or has a variant. I heard that his wife is on the staff of the YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. OT: Nice work, DOug, on "Pizzazz." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) MAN'S HELPMEET. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 29, 1909. p. II4 (1 page): "A woman, a dog and a hickory tree, The more you beat them the better they'll be." (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284: pp. 145-192 p. 156 1 match of 'the more you beat them' in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284 Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: October 27, 1849 A spaniel, a wife, and a walnut tree, The more you beat them the better they be. TWISS's _Eldon_, iii. 136. I've been going through this book at NYU. Gotta type fast before midnight. FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS by Harry Middleton Hyatt second and revised edition memoirs of the Alma Egan Hyatt Foundations 1965 (first edition 1935) Pg. 631: RHYMES A woman, a dog, a hickory tree, The more you beat them,the better they be. Aunt Jemima ate cake, Aunt Jemima ate jelly, Aunt Jemima went home WIth a pain in her -- Now don't get excited, And don't be misled, For Aunt Jemima went home With a pain in her head. Pg. 632: Beefsteak when I'm hungry. Whiskey when I'm dry, Money when I'm hard up, And heaven when I die. Chink, chink, Chinaman, itting on fence, Trying to make dollae, Out of fifteen cents, Along came a policeman, And clubbed him on the head, Chink, chink, Chinaman, Fell down dead. Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please put a nickel, In grandpa's hat. If you haven'et a nickel, A penny will do. If you haven't that, God bless you. Pg. 634: I asked my mother for fifty cents, To see the elephant jump the fence; He jumped so high, he touched the sky, And didn't get back till the fourth of July. Pg. 636: I should worry, I should fret, I should marry a suffregette. Pg. 638: I've got a rocket, In y pocket, I cannot stop to play. Away she goes, I've burnt my toes, 'Tis Independence Day. Lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade, Good enough for any old maid. Pg. 639: One's company, Two's a couple, Three's a crowd. Pg. 644: What shall e do? Spit in our shoe. What's your name? John Brown. Ask me again, And I'll knock you down. What's your name? Pudding and tame. Ask me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's the news? The cat has new shoes. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 05:08:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:08:25 -0500 Subject: Mirror image Message-ID: NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 "... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." instead of "... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 31 06:00:19 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:00:19 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >.... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >clue. >> >>http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 06:02:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:02:24 -0500 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Pg. 632: > Beefsteak when I'm hungry. > Whiskey when I'm dry, > Money when I'm hard up, > And heaven when I die. One version of the final verse of "Junker Partner," a New Orleans black traditional song: Give me water when I'm thirsty Give me whiskey when I'm dry Give me kindness when I'm sickly Give me heaven when I die Black traditional rhyme of unknown origin When I die Bury me deep Put two jugs of molasses At my feet Put two big biscuits in my hand I'm gon' sop my way to the Promised Land > Pg. 634: > I asked my mother for fifty cents, > To see the elephant jump the fence; > He jumped so high, he touched the sky, > And didn't get back till the fourth of July. The way I learned it as a child in Texas Mary Mack Dressed in black Silver and gold buttons all down her back She asked her mother for fifty cents To see the elephant jump the fence He jumped so high, he touched the sky And didn't come down till the Fourth of July Euphemism: I'll be John Brown! for I'll be God-damned! -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 31 06:17:27 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:17:27 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people In-Reply-To: <573EAD4C.0D397B46.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >At picnics you will sometimes hear the children say: >Lemonade, >Made in the shade, >Stirred with a spade, >By an old maid. Is this the inspiration for "[somebody] has got it made in the shade" = "[somebody] has got it made"? -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 31 06:20:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:20:02 -0500 Subject: skinny-dipping, skinny dip (1947) Message-ID: >From Michael Quinion's review of _The Oxford Dictionary of Slang_: ----- http://www.worldwidewords.org/reviews/ayto.htm I do hope it will be taken advantage of, so that we don't get quite so many dreadful anachronisms, such as the scene in a recent BBC play, set in the 1930s, in which the American heroine said she was going skinny dipping; this book would have questioned that usage instantly with its note that it was first recorded only in 1966. ----- Perhaps it wasn't quite that anachronistic. Sam Clements already found "skinny-dip" from 1956: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401C&L=ads-l&P=R1191 Now "skinny-dipping" and "skinny(-)dip" can be dated back to 1947: ----- 1947 _Marion Star_ (Ohio) 2 Jul. 6/7 The height of daring was attained by boys who trudged miles into the country until they reached a swimming hole far from the madding crowd where skinny-dipping wouldn't offend anybody. The same kids, grown up, now are accustomed to see what amounts to skinny-dipping in mixed company without batting an eye. ----- 1947 _Marion Star_ (Ohio) 13 Sep. 6/7 If town moppets must be given miniature staircases because their parents are bothered about an environment of elevators, what's going to be done about giving them some of the other things city boys and girls never will have, such as as skinny dips in creeks instead of swimming pools. ----- 1948 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Texas) 14 May 2-6/1 For the present, he did not foresee skinny dipping becoming a popular pastime with American women. ----- Both of the 1947 cites are from the columnist Truman Twill, while the 1948 cite is from a United Press wire story with the headline "Scanty Swim Suit Prescribed For Your Ego" (quoting the psychologist James F. Bender, who thought that "girls should liberate themselves from their clothing"). --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 31 06:33:30 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:33:30 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:17:27 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>At picnics you will sometimes hear the children say: >>Lemonade, >>Made in the shade, >>Stirred with a spade, >>By an old maid. > >Is this the inspiration for "[somebody] has got it made in the shade" = >"[somebody] has got it made"? That's what is suggested by the HDAS entry for "have it made [in the shade]", which lists in square brackets the exact quote that Barry gave above but with the source as "1896 in Botkin _Treas. Amer. Folk._ 789". --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 06:37:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:37:07 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:00 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >> clue. >>> >>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? > > -- Doug Wilson > Exactly. It still is, as far as i'm concerned. "Wolf" is pronounced [wUf], but "woof" is pronounced [wuf]. People get thrown off by pseudo-phonetic spellings. I've noticed that the BE/Southern pronunciation of "whip, which used to be spelled "whup," by outsiders, is now more and more often being spelled "whoop," as in, "open a can of whoop-ass." Given that I pronounce "whoop" as "hoop," (cf. the '50's jump-blues song, "Whooping and Hollering," pronounced as though spelled "Hoopin 'n' Hollin," for the old-school black pronunciation and there's whooping [hupiN] cough, a common disease of my childhood now making a comeback, as an example of the old-school standard pronunciation), I'd much rather see the standard spelling used: "open a can of whip-ass." -Wilson Gray From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Jan 31 08:13:03 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:13:03 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Message-ID: Outside Washington, D.C., in the early 1950s, I learned of the "Catch a nigger by his toe" version when a teen-aged playground monitor cautioned us to say "tiger" instead. Well, who doesn't ?, I thought. Wilson Gray wrote: <> Besides the underwater obstacle, I have heard "niggerhead" applied to a kind of broadleaf lawn weed. It sends up a thin stalk (thinner than a dandelion stem) topped by a tight seed cluster that has a nubbly texture somewhat like the standard pre-Afro Negro hair style. (More often seen on women nowadays.) My father referred to them as "whiskers". To a lad just taking up the responsibility of lawnmowing, the weeds were more annoying than dandelions. The stalks bent out of the way of the reel-type push mower and had to be clipped or cut with a grass whip. Seán Fitzpatrick Beer is good food http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 08:21:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:21:57 EST Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875) Message-ID: WHISKEY WHEN I'M DRY--303 Google hits, 27 Google Groups hits WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY--15 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits ... I searched for "Whisk(e)y when I'm dry." The last verse of "Heaven when I die" is too common, and the other verses change too much. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2rZD+Ozvm9zBpFEr7LzuxiLHiBf35r4+zA==) Sunday, December 31, 1989 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+whisky+when+I) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+whisky+when+I) ...toast: "Beefsteak WHEN I'M hungry; rye WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY; greenbacks WHEN I'M.....WHEN you swear, swear by your country; WHEN you lie, lie for a pretty woman.. ... _Hornellsville Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2rW6FhYaJ5pn/1t5Jt0KJKb4/ogBf4WUUg==) Friday, February 05, 1875 _Hornellsville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hornellsville+whisky+when+I) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+whisky+when+I) ...Dnluth: ''Beefsteak WHEN I'M huugryt WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY. Greenbacks WHEN I'M.....to a fountain wliieb has lorg ago run DRY. WHEN liuman hearts aro seeking.. Pg. 2, col. 6: The following is said to be a popular song in Duluth: "Beefsteak when I'm hungry, Whisky when I'm dry, Greenbacks when I'm hard-up, And Heaven when I die." ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html_ (http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html) Shortcuts: I hadn’t heard much of James "Son" Thomas before the release of Beefsteak Blues" (Evidence 26095), sessions originally recorded between 1980 and 1985. He’s got a gentle voice that sometimes rises to a sweet falsetto. The thing I like best about this pleasant journeyman is his self-penned epitaph: "Give me beefsteak when I’m hungry/Whiskey when I’m dry/Pretty women when I’ m living/Heaven when I die." … ... ... _"Rye Whisky" Traditional American Folksong 1. I'll eat when I'm ..._ (http://www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt) ... (CHORUS) 13. Seet milk when I'm hungry, Rye whisky when I'm dry, If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die. (CHORUS) 14. ... www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TNO3rvVwYr4J:www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt+"whisky+when+I'm+ dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt) ... _Corn Bread When I'm Hungry - 98.11_ (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm) ... Dock Boggs, an Appalachian banjo player and singer born in 1898: "Give me corn bread when I'm hungry, good people,/Corn whiskey when I'm dry,/Pretty women a ... www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/ban jo.htm) ... _Rye Whiskey (2)_ (http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html) ... It's beefsteak when I'm hungry, Rye Whiskey when I'm dry Greenbacks when I'm hard up and religion when I die Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry, If I ... sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html - 3k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:gVsiuxdU2NsJ:sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad /pages/tiRYEWHISx.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html) ... _Lyrics- Moonshiner_ (http://www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm) ... They're all just as sweet as the dew on the vine. Well it's rye bread when I'm hungry. Rye whiskey when I'm dry. Give greenbacks when I'm hard up. ... www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm - 7k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:I88segWvnXgJ:www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm+"wh iskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm ) ... _Tex Ritter - Rye Whiskey_ (http://www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html) ... It's a whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry If I don't get rye whiskey, well, I think I will die Sweet milk when I'm hungry, rye whiskey when I'm dry If a ... www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:L5oZLJ3CEN8J:www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/ry e.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_fi le/tex/rye.html) ... _Going to Georgia - Family Tradition Lyrics Database_ (http://www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia) ... my life a way. Beef when I'm hungry, whiskey when I'm dry, Cornbread when I'm hard up, sweet heaven when I die. Going down to Georgia ... www.playingbyear.com/resources/ Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia - 6k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:NZYiIt4oKdcJ:www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF -8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia) ... _adamjhu's Yahoo! Profile_ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu) ... Favorite Quote. "Give me beefsteak when I'm hungry, whiskey when I'm dry, womens when I'm lonely, and heaven when I die. --James "Son" Thomas". ... profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu - 17k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:7ahhCM5tbSoJ:profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UT F-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--El Cantinero. It's the best Mexican I've ever had in New York City...in Greenwich Village...on University Place...between 11th and 12th Streets. Definitely the best of that lot. ... WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT?--Au Bon Pain. I'd like to try "hot chocolate" as I've tested NYC places for "French onion soup." Au Bon Pain has a new product called "Choco Bon Loco." (I guess that's French.) I was going to try it. "It's not like hot chocolate," a worker told me. It's four dollars, and they fill up half the cup only, all with undrinkable sludge. Thank goodness he wasn't on commission and was honest! ... WHAT WAS ON THE COVER OF SUNDAY'S NEW YORK POST?--The Iragi elections, perhaps? No way. The most important story in the world, according to the New York Post, is that Mike Piazza is marrying a woman. It's now made the front page twice in about a week. Is it any wonder that I have to beg the entire world for thirteen years to honor the black stablehands who called New York "the Big Apple"? Well, it's off to parking tickets on Monday, and they usually shut down the place over the weekend, so Mondays we have no heat... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 09:02:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:02:46 EST Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1888, 1893); Peppadew (Piquante Pepper) Message-ID: PEPPADEW (PIQUANTE PEPPER) ... PEPPADEW--5,690- Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits ... _http://www.peppadew.com/webroot/english1/PEPPADEW%20Brand.htm_ (http://www.peppadew.com/webroot/english1/PEPPADEW%20Brand.htm) ... I was walking past MANDLER'S, THE ORIGINAL SAUSAGE CO., 26 East 17th Street, _www.mandlers.com_ (http://www.mandlers.com) . Mandler's serves "Peppadew." "Peppadew" seems to be trademarked. However, OED has "Jarlsberg" and other trademarked foods. What about "pquante pepper"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- LEMONADE, MADE IN THE SHADE ... Ah! I was searching first for the third line, "stirred with a spade," hoping to get the whole thing. There's an 1891 "lemonade + made in the shade" ProQuest hit, but I couldn't find it in the text. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _MINEOLA'S FARMERS' FAIR; THE AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY HAS A GREAT DAY. JEFFREY YORKE, THE TRAINER, MEETS WITH A PROBABLY FATAL ACCIDENT --MANY INTERESTING RACES. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=106195329&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107160651&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 27, 1888. p. 2 (1 page) ... The most strident voice of all belonged to an ancient lemonade vendor, who chanted unceasingly: "Ere y'are. Ice cold lemminyade, made in the shade, stirred by the four fingers of Jenny Lind, and cooled by the ice Napoleon shot the bear upon. Only a nickel a glass and no suds." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Daily Citizen _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2kqHM4h2z9EpHA/KT95ukREvtts+CdaVtA==) Tuesday, June 27, 1893 _Iowa City,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:iowa_city+lemonade+and+made+in+the+shade+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+lemonade+and+made+in+the+shade+AND) ...at which old fashioned LEMONADE, "MADE IN THE SHADE AND stirred by an old.....i thorough search of THE buildINg was MADE by THE police while a number of men.. Pg. 3, col. 3: Tiffin has been making great preparations for a Fourth of July celebration. During the day there will be a "grand old-fashioned picnic" at which old fashioned lemonade "made in the shade and stirred by an old maid with a rusty spade" will be served, and delicious ice cream, made from "real cream," will be there. From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Mon Jan 31 09:36:51 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:36:51 -0500 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) In-Reply-To: <20050131045722.3A85076B80@spf6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Barry, This old chestnut goes way back: A woman, a spaniel, and walnut tree, The more you beat them, the better they be. Brewer's Readers Handbook (1897) attributes it to John Taylor "The Water Poet" (1630). Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) > The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284: pp. 145-192 > p. 156 1 match of 'the more you beat them' > > in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284 > Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: October 27, > 1849 > > A spaniel, a wife, and a walnut tree, > The more you beat them the better they be. > TWISS's _Eldon_, iii. 136. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 31 09:49:31 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:49:31 +0000 Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women In-Reply-To: <200501310310.j0V3AQQ6032108@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 31/1/05 3:10 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Sexual expressions regarding black women >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> What I heard in the '70s (as a brag) was "Once black, never back." >> >> An old movie provided "I like my coffee like I like my women: hot, >> blonde, and sweet." >> JL Can't remember where I heard the 'sick' topper: "I like my women like I like my coffee - ground up and in the freezer." Neil Crawford From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 12:38:02 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:38:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Imperialism" In-Reply-To: <5aa77e7ca0ea7ebdf038eec40d355df4@grinchy.com> Message-ID: imperialism (OED 1858) 1833 _Times_ 5 Aug. 3 "Yet there are among these," you observe with disdain, "pretenders to imperialism? And the dust of the Buonapartes thinks to create a party, though it has proved itself destitute of power, imagination, youth, and courage." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 12:46:49 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:46:49 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Collectivism" In-Reply-To: <5aa77e7ca0ea7ebdf038eec40d355df4@grinchy.com> Message-ID: collectivism (OED 1880) 1869 _Times_ 16 Sept. 6 He was ... little prepared to see the discussion turn on the expediency of abolishing all rights of individual property, and establishing the principle of "Collectivism," or Communism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 12:53:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:53:57 -0800 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 12:56:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:56:31 -0800 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) Message-ID: "A woman, a dog, and a hickory tree..." appears (in full) in Crane's "The Red Badge of Courage" (1894-95). JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if Fred Shapiro wants this or has a variant. I heard that his wife is on the staff of the YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. OT: Nice work, DOug, on "Pizzazz." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) MAN'S HELPMEET. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 29, 1909. p. II4 (1 page): "A woman, a dog and a hickory tree, The more you beat them the better they'll be." (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284: pp. 145-192 p. 156 1 match of 'the more you beat them' in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284 Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: October 27, 1849 A spaniel, a wife, and a walnut tree, The more you beat them the better they be. TWISS's _Eldon_, iii. 136. I've been going through this book at NYU. Gotta type fast before midnight. FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS by Harry Middleton Hyatt second and revised edition memoirs of the Alma Egan Hyatt Foundations 1965 (first edition 1935) Pg. 631: RHYMES A woman, a dog, a hickory tree, The more you beat them,the better they be. Aunt Jemima ate cake, Aunt Jemima ate jelly, Aunt Jemima went home WIth a pain in her -- Now don't get excited, And don't be misled, For Aunt Jemima went home With a pain in her head. Pg. 632: Beefsteak when I'm hungry. Whiskey when I'm dry, Money when I'm hard up, And heaven when I die. Chink, chink, Chinaman, itting on fence, Trying to make dollae, Out of fifteen cents, Along came a policeman, And clubbed him on the head, Chink, chink, Chinaman, Fell down dead. Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please put a nickel, In grandpa's hat. If you haven'et a nickel, A penny will do. If you haven't that, God bless you. Pg. 634: I asked my mother for fifty cents, To see the elephant jump the fence; He jumped so high, he touched the sky, And didn't get back till the fourth of July. Pg. 636: I should worry, I should fret, I should marry a suffregette. Pg. 638: I've got a rocket, In y pocket, I cannot stop to play. Away she goes, I've burnt my toes, 'Tis Independence Day. Lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade, Good enough for any old maid. Pg. 639: One's company, Two's a couple, Three's a crowd. Pg. 644: What shall e do? Spit in our shoe. What's your name? John Brown. Ask me again, And I'll knock you down. What's your name? Pudding and tame. Ask me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's the news? The cat has new shoes. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 12:59:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:59:44 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >.... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >clue. >> >>http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 13:01:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:01:52 -0800 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) Message-ID: "Beefsteak when I'm hungry..." Frequently reported in the traditional song "Rye Whiskey." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Pg. 632: > Beefsteak when I'm hungry. > Whiskey when I'm dry, > Money when I'm hard up, > And heaven when I die. One version of the final verse of "Junker Partner," a New Orleans black traditional song: Give me water when I'm thirsty Give me whiskey when I'm dry Give me kindness when I'm sickly Give me heaven when I die Black traditional rhyme of unknown origin When I die Bury me deep Put two jugs of molasses At my feet Put two big biscuits in my hand I'm gon' sop my way to the Promised Land > Pg. 634: > I asked my mother for fifty cents, > To see the elephant jump the fence; > He jumped so high, he touched the sky, > And didn't get back till the fourth of July. The way I learned it as a child in Texas Mary Mack Dressed in black Silver and gold buttons all down her back She asked her mother for fifty cents To see the elephant jump the fence He jumped so high, he touched the sky And didn't come down till the Fourth of July Euphemism: I'll be John Brown! for I'll be God-damned! -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free! From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Mon Jan 31 13:05:32 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:05:32 -0500 Subject: slip-shucking Message-ID: Reading a local op-ed piece this morning, I ran across the phrase "slip-shucking." From context I was able to determine that it means something like "hoodwink." I found that SlipShuck is the name of a mountain or something and that the term "slip shuck" is used in racing to refer to something about putting nuts on bolts. Since Dare 4 ends at sk, I thought I would ask if anyone has anymore information on this term, what it means, and widespread its use is. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 13:05:56 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:05:56 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Impressionism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: impressionism (OED, 2., 1882) 1878 _Times_ 6 Dec. 3 In these days of "impressionism," when the "blottesque" is apt to run riot, in reaction against the over-minuteness intolerantly insisted on in certain schools, such work as Mrs. Allingham's is specially noticeable as showing how conscientiousness and thoroughness may be reconciled with artistic requirements. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 13:10:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:10:56 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." Losing it. JL Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >.... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >clue. >> >>http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 14:03:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:03:47 -0500 Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The variation among these old songs is impressive. I know at least three other versions of "Junker/Junko/Junkie Partner." The one I gave is the version that I learned first, in 1950, so I tend to think of it as the "right" version. But, actually, I have no clue as to what version is oldest. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 3:21 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > WHISKEY WHEN I'M DRY--303 Google hits, 27 Google Groups hits > WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY--15 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits > ... > I searched for "Whisk(e)y when I'm dry." The last verse of "Heaven > when I =20 > die" is too common, and the other verses change too much. > ... > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Chronicle Telegram _=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3D9OTicI1+LyyKID/ > 6NLMW2rZD+= > Ozvm9zBpFEr7LzuxiLHiBf35r4+zA=3D=3D) Sunday, December 31,=20 > 1989 _Elyria,_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity: > elyria+whisky+whe= > n+I) _Ohio_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate: > ohio+whisky+when= > +I) =20 > ...toast: "Beefsteak WHEN I'M hungry; rye WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY; > greenbacks=20 > WHEN I'M.....WHEN you swear, swear by your country; WHEN you lie, lie > for a= > =20 > pretty woman.. > ... > > _Hornellsville Tribune _=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3DONKPmHWqWNiKID/ > 6NLMW2rW6F= > hYaJ5pn/1t5Jt0KJKb4/ogBf4WUUg=3D=3D) Friday, February 05,=20 > 1875 _Hornellsville,_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity: > hornellsville+whi= > sky+when+I) _New York_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate: > new_york+whisky+= > when+I) ...Dnluth: ''Beefsteak WHEN=20 > I'M huugryt WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY. Greenbacks WHEN I'M.....to a > fountain=20 > wliieb has lorg ago run DRY. WHEN liuman hearts aro seeking.. > Pg. 2, col. 6: > The following is said to be a popular song in Duluth: "Beefsteak when > I'm =20 > hungry, Whisky when I'm dry, Greenbacks when I'm hard-up, And Heaven > when I=20= > =20 > die." > ... > ... > ... > (GOOGLE) > ... > _http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html_=20 > (http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html)=20 > Shortcuts: I hadn=E2=80=99t heard much of James "Son" Thomas before > the rele= > ase of =20 > Beefsteak Blues" (Evidence 26095), sessions originally recorded > between 198= > 0=20 > and 1985. He=E2=80=99s got a gentle voice that sometimes rises to a > sweet fa= > lsetto. =20 > The thing I like best about this pleasant journeyman is his > self-penned epit= > aph:=20 > "Give me beefsteak when I=E2=80=99m hungry/Whiskey when I=E2=80=99m > dry/Pre= > tty women when I=E2=80=99 > m living/Heaven when I die." =E2=80=A6 > ... > ... > _"Rye Whisky" Traditional American Folksong 1. I'll eat when I'm > ..._=20 > (http://www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt)=20 > ... (CHORUS) 13. Seet milk when I'm hungry, Rye whisky when I'm dry, > If a > tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die. (CHORUS) 14. ... =20 > www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt - 4k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:TNO3rvVwYr4J:www.pdmusic.org/ > folk/Ry= > e_Whisky.txt+"whisky+when+I'm+ > dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.pdmus= > ic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt) =20 > ... > =20 > _Corn Bread When I'm Hungry - 98.11_=20 > (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm)=20 > ... Dock Boggs, an Appalachian banjo player and singer born in 1898: > "Give=20 > me corn bread > when I'm hungry, good people,/Corn whiskey when I'm dry,/Pretty women > a ...= > =20 > www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.theat= > lantic.com/issues/98nov/ban > jo.htm) =20 > ... =20 > _Rye Whiskey (2)_=20 > (http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html)=20 > ... It's beefsteak when I'm hungry, Rye Whiskey when I'm dry > Greenbacks=20 > when I'm hard > up and religion when I die Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I > cry, If=20= > I=20 > ...=20 > sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html - 3k - > _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:gVsiuxdU2NsJ: > sniff.numachi.com/~rick= > heit/dtrad > /pages/tiRYEWHISx.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - > _Simila= > r=20 > pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > sniff.num= > achi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html) =20 > ...=20 > _Lyrics- Moonshiner_ > (http://www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm)=20 > ... They're all just as sweet as the dew on the vine. Well it's rye > bread=20 > when I'm hungry. > Rye whiskey when I'm dry. Give greenbacks when I'm hard up. ...=20 > www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm - 7k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:I88segWvnXgJ:www.dubba.com/ > hookah/ly= > rics/moonshiner.htm+"wh > iskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.dubba= > .com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm > ) =20 > ...=20 > _Tex Ritter - Rye Whiskey_=20 > (http://www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html)=20 > ... It's a whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry If I don't get > rye=20 > whiskey, well, > I think I will die Sweet milk when I'm hungry, rye whiskey when I'm > dry If=20= > a=20 > ...=20 > www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html - 4k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:L5oZLJ3CEN8J:www.twin- > music.com/azly= > rics/r_file/tex/ry > e.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.twin-= > music.com/azlyrics/r_fi > le/tex/rye.html) =20 > ...=20 > _Going to Georgia - Family Tradition Lyrics Database_=20 > (http://www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx? > song=3DGoing+to+Georgia)=20 > ... my life a way. Beef when I'm hungry, whiskey when I'm dry, > Cornbread =20 > when > I'm hard up, sweet heaven when I die. Going down to Georgia ... =20 > www.playingbyear.com/resources/ Lyrics.aspx?song=3DGoing+to+Georgia - > 6k -=20 > _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:NZYiIt4oKdcJ: > www.playingbyear.com/re= > sources/Lyrics.aspx? > song=3DGoing+to+Georgia+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&i= > e=3DUTF > -8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.playi= > ngbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=3DGoing+to+Georgia) =20 > ...=20 > _adamjhu's Yahoo! Profile_ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu)=20 > ... Favorite Quote. "Give me beefsteak when I'm hungry, whiskey when > I'm =20 > dry, womens > when I'm lonely, and heaven when I die. --James "Son" Thomas". ...=20 > profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu - 17k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:7ahhCM5tbSoJ: > profiles.yahoo.com/adam= > jhu+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUT > F-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > profiles.= > yahoo.com/adamjhu) =20 > ...=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----= > -- > --------------------------------------------------------=20 > COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:=20 > WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--El Cantinero. It's the best Mexican I've > ever=20 > had in New York City...in Greenwich Village...on University > Place...between=20= > =20 > 11th and 12th Streets. Definitely the best of that lot.=20 > ...=20 > WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT?--Au Bon Pain. I'd like to try "hot=20 > chocolate" as I've tested NYC places for "French onion soup." Au Bon > Pain h= > as a new=20 > product called "Choco Bon Loco." (I guess that's French.) I was going > to tr= > y=20 > it. "It's not like hot chocolate," a worker told me. It's four > dollars, and= > =20 > they fill up half the cup only, all with undrinkable sludge. Thank > goodness= > he=20 > wasn't on commission and was honest!=20 > ...=20 > WHAT WAS ON THE COVER OF SUNDAY'S NEW YORK POST?--The Iragi > elections,=20 > perhaps? No way. The most important story in the world, according to > the Ne= > w York=20 > Post, is that Mike Piazza is marrying a woman. It's now made the > front page= > =20 > twice in about a week. Is it any wonder that I have to beg the entire > world= > =20 > for thirteen years to honor the black stablehands who called New York > "the=20= > Big=20 > Apple"? Well, it's off to parking tickets on Monday, and they usually > shut=20 > down the place over the weekend, so Mondays we have no heat...=20 > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 14:10:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:10:51 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How can one tell? -Wilson, just wondering On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." > > Losing it. > > JL > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >> clue. >>> >>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 15:15:03 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:15:03 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050131050024.33349B2532@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: >>>>> ****************************** "There was an old man of Milan Whose verses never would scan. He said, "As a poet, My fault, and I know it, Is that I always try to get as many words into the very last line as I possibly can." --Anon., with the middle lines by JL because I can't remember the originals. <<<<< This has something in common with 2. There was a young man of Peru whose limericks stopped at line 2. and 1. There was a young man of Verdun which I heard or read I-don't-remember-where, and which seem to require a finisher: 0. [This limerick would be about the young man from St. Paul whose limericks had no lines at all... but, of course, it doesn't exist.] -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 15:22:08 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: <20050131050024.33349B2532@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >>>>> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells" is pretty much the only occasion for most people to utter, or hear, the wonderful word "tintinnabulation" <<<<< ... perhaps is unaware of the excellent musical setting of that poe-m by the late folksinger Phil Ochs. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 15:28:35 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:28:35 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <20050131050024.33349B2532@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray comments: >>>>> I thought that the symbol [x] was sufficient. If the symbol is meaningless, what clarification will "voiceless velar fricative" provide? <<<<< um, I was responding to "guttural", without ready access to the preceding discussion. Of course I agree with you there. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 15:30:21 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:30:21 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Eminent Domain" Message-ID: Nice work, Fred. This may be the origin of the term. But wasn't The Law of Nations published in 1758? "Eminent domain" must have been in it before 1805, because there are cases from 1796 that discuss eminent domain and cite Vattel. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 9:11 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Eminent Domain" eminent domain (OED 1850) 1805 Emer de Vattel _The Law of Nations_ 173 (Making of Modern Law) The right which belonged to the society or to the sovereign, of disposing, in case of necessity and for the public safety, of all the wealth contained in the state is called the _eminent domain_. ... If the nation disposes of the _public property_, in virtue of his eminent domain, the alienation is valid, as having been made with a sufficient power. Fred Shapiro From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 16:12:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:12:54 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Words mispelled. Buttons rongpushed. Ize blured. World sems nycer.. JL. Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How can one tell? -Wilson, just wondering On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." > > Losing it. > > JL > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >> clue. >>> >>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 31 16:54:20 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:54:20 -0600 Subject: "I see London, I see France" (1967) Message-ID: > PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--Wasn't the Boston Globe > supposed to arrive some time in January?...Wouldn't it help if ProQuest ADDED SOME > NEW MATERIAL FOR 2005?? I subscribe through SABR, and they say it won't be until March before the Boston Globe is online. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 31 17:22:09 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:22:09 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people Message-ID: I learned the church-steeple finger game from my mother or possibly great-aunt in the mid 1940s. Mother born 1900, great-aunt born ca. 1870, both in Springfield, Mass. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:16 pm Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people > WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE > collected by Clifton Johnson > edited with an introduction by Carl Withers > New York: Columbia University Press > 1963 > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Clearfield Progress Saturday, October 28, 1944 Clearfield, > Pennsylvania...THIS IS THE Church. THIS IS THE STEEPLE, Open THE > Doors and THEre Are.....nade of THE tools and wea (ab.) 37 THIS > unit IS a part of THE forces of THE.. > Pg. 4, col. 1: > One of the more intriguing bits of literature which Dr. (Dwight J.- > -ed.) Bradley has put out is a 16-page size leaflet bearing the > old nursery rhyme title, "This is the Church, This Is the Steeple, > Open the Doors...and There Are the People." > > Portsmouth Herald Thursday, November 04, 1954 Portsmouth, New > Hampshire...here's THE STEEPLE. Open THE doors AND SEE ALL THE > PEOPLE." Unconsciously, Dr.....THE difference in his case is that > ALL THE "PEOPLE" are sprawled on THE.. > Pg. 5, col. 1: > There's a game adults play with children to amuse them. Clasping > the hands with fingers entwined inside the palms, they maneuver > them, chanting: "Here's the church and here's the steeple. Open > the doors and see all the people." > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 31 17:28:23 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:28:23 -0500 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Perhaps he meant to say "prejudge"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:53 am Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) > Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : > > "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, > who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice > Jackson from the start." > > What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson > from the start. > > JL > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 31 17:36:49 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:36:49 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties Message-ID: The children among us will not know that Burma Shave was a brand of shaving soap which posted these rhymes on sets of small signs by the roadside, each line on a separate sign. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:10 am Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > A couple from the 'Forties: > > We know > How much > You love that gal > But use both hands > When driving, pal > Burma-Shave > > Car in ditch > Man in tree > Moon was full > So was he > Burma-Shave > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerry E Kane > > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > -------- > > > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > > > Shaving brushes > > You'll soon see 'em > > On a shelf > > In some museum > > Burma-Shave > > > > His cheek > > Was rough > > His chick vamoosed > > And now she won't > > Come home to roost > > Burma-Shave > > > > On curves ahead > > Remember, sonny > > That rabbit's foot > > Didn't save > > The bunny > > Burma-Shave > > > > If your peach > > Keeps out > > Of reach > > Better practice > > What we preach > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > Jerry E Kane > > Los Angeles, CA > > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 17:38:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:38:28 -0800 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Good suggestion, George. But the bigger question is, "Why didn't he say it?" Lapsus linguae ? Or something far more sinister ? Wondering, Jon George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps he meant to say "prejudge"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:53 am Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) > Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : > > "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, > who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice > Jackson from the start." > > What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson > from the start. > > JL > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jan 31 17:52:17 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:52:17 -0600 Subject: "Complicit" In-Reply-To: <41CCD315@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: 'Complicit' is in WNW 4th ed, run in at the entry 'complicitous'. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 Fred Shapiro wrote: > > >Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: > > > > > >complicit (not in OED) > > > >1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein > Online) Consumers, > >as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are > >complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be > almost solely > >the cause for any misperceptions that occur. And Orin Hargraves replied: > It's also curiously missing from RHUD, WNW-4, and Collins. > ODE's got it, > however, and says "1940s: back-formation from complicity." > (but with no > citational evidence). MW-11 says 1973. AH-4 doesn't date it. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 18:03:23 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:03:23 -0500 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: It's a legalism. Events and evidence that are unfair to one party are said to prejudice that party. Here's a few examples from recent cases. I'm not going to bother with cites, because this usage is extremely common. "Conversely, evidence which is not relevant to prove some part of the prosecution's case should not be admitted solely to inflame the jury and prejudice the defendant." "An error is harmless if (1) the error did not prejudice the defendant or the prejudice was de minimis . . . ." "To be defamatory, a statement need only prejudice the plaintiff in the eyes of a substantial and respectable minority of the community." Presumably, what the attorney meant was that the nature of the jury would prejudice (i.e., be prejudicial to) Jackson. It would not be idiomatic, in this context, to say that persons prejudice Jackson. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:54 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 18:18:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:18:03 -0800 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Thank you, John. So it's a well established stupidism. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a legalism. Events and evidence that are unfair to one party are said to prejudice that party. Here's a few examples from recent cases. I'm not going to bother with cites, because this usage is extremely common. "Conversely, evidence which is not relevant to prove some part of the prosecution's case should not be admitted solely to inflame the jury and prejudice the defendant." "An error is harmless if (1) the error did not prejudice the defendant or the prejudice was de minimis . . . ." "To be defamatory, a statement need only prejudice the plaintiff in the eyes of a substantial and respectable minority of the community." Presumably, what the attorney meant was that the nature of the jury would prejudice (i.e., be prejudicial to) Jackson. It would not be idiomatic, in this context, to say that persons prejudice Jackson. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:54 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jan 31 18:35:51 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:35:51 -0500 Subject: Mirror image In-Reply-To: <84ef48cc78a84a3a7bcfc6eb809dd46e@rcn.com> Message-ID: >NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 > >"... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." > >instead of > >"... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." ~~~~~~~~~~ Total confusion over the inflexions of /to lie/ and /to lay/ is the order of the day. The contemporary writer, for instance, who will boldly use "laid" for the preterit of /lay/ is rarer than those who feebly use "lay." The boo-boo with "lain" above is a rarity in itself, since even the existence of /lain/ is nearly unknown, nowadays, nevermind attaching it to the right verb. Factors such as being rudely corrected by persons like me; the sexual connotations of /laid/; embedded tropes like "Now I lay me....."; and the "lay of the land", probably add to the confusion. I very much doubt that the old paradigms will ever become firmly reestablished. I wish I didn't find it so irritating. Perhaps I should, like the White Queen, practice believing impossible things before breakfast each day. (It might help in swallowing the world news, too.) A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 18:37:57 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:37:57 -0500 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: I'm not convinced that it's a stupidism. It's a term that fills an (extremely important) need and for which there is no precisely equivalent term. ("Prejudge" doesn't work; that's something that can be done only by the judge or jury.) Like many specialized terms, it sounds odd to the broader community. The lawyer on Fox and Friends should have used different wording, especially since most people know about prejudice only in the sense of racial/group prejudice, but I don't have a problem with any of the uses I quoted. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Thank you, John. So it's a well established stupidism. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a legalism. Events and evidence that are unfair to one party are said to prejudice that party. Here's a few examples from recent cases. I'm not going to bother with cites, because this usage is extremely common. "Conversely, evidence which is not relevant to prove some part of the prosecution's case should not be admitted solely to inflame the jury and prejudice the defendant." "An error is harmless if (1) the error did not prejudice the defendant or the prejudice was de minimis . . . ." "To be defamatory, a statement need only prejudice the plaintiff in the eyes of a substantial and respectable minority of the community." Presumably, what the attorney meant was that the nature of the jury would prejudice (i.e., be prejudicial to) Jackson. It would not be idiomatic, in this context, to say that persons prejudice Jackson. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:54 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 18:52:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:52:20 -0500 Subject: final or linking /l/ Message-ID: Our local Sunday paper had a column by the managing editor stipulating rules for letters to the editor. She noted that some writers, having sent in a letter, then decide "to withdrawal it." I can only assume that she is from Southeast Ohio, where a linking /l/ is common. As in the case of my earlier cited "drawling," her pronunciation has slipped into her spelling. (No doubt she'll get some irate letters from the J-School or the English dept.) Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 1-740-593-4568 http://www.ohio.edu/linguistics/ From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Mon Jan 31 19:06:34 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:06:34 -0500 Subject: Mirror image In-Reply-To: <20050131183500.EF2117ADB6@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Does lie/lay confusion derive in part from overcorrection? "As I have heard a man say ... his Wife was not to be beleev'd, for she would lye like a Dogge; marry, (quoth the other) I would give twelve pence to see that trick, for I have seene a Dogge to lye with his Nose in his Tayle." - John Taylor "A Dogge of Warre" (1630) On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:35 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Mirror image > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 >> >> "... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." >> >> instead of >> >> "... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." > ~~~~~~~~~~ > Total confusion over the inflexions of /to lie/ and /to lay/ is the > order > of the day. > The contemporary writer, for instance, who will boldly use "laid" for > the > preterit of /lay/ is rarer than those who feebly use "lay." > The boo-boo with "lain" above is a rarity in itself, since even the > existence of /lain/ is nearly unknown, nowadays, nevermind attaching > it to > the right verb. > Factors such as being rudely corrected by persons like me; the sexual > connotations of /laid/; embedded tropes like "Now I lay me....."; and > the > "lay of the land", probably add to the confusion. I very much doubt > that > the old paradigms will ever become firmly reestablished. I wish I > didn't > find it so irritating. Perhaps I should, like the White Queen, practice > believing impossible things before breakfast each day. (It might help > in > swallowing the world news, too.) > A. Murie > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 18:55:38 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:55:38 -0500 Subject: Mirror image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've read this too, but never heard it. It's a typical hypercorrection, not unusual in the NY Times, which often uses "whom" where subjective "who" is required. At 01:35 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: > >NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 > > > >"... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." > > > >instead of > > > >"... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." >~~~~~~~~~~ >Total confusion over the inflexions of /to lie/ and /to lay/ is the order >of the day. >The contemporary writer, for instance, who will boldly use "laid" for the >preterit of /lay/ is rarer than those who feebly use "lay." >The boo-boo with "lain" above is a rarity in itself, since even the >existence of /lain/ is nearly unknown, nowadays, nevermind attaching it to >the right verb. >Factors such as being rudely corrected by persons like me; the sexual >connotations of /laid/; embedded tropes like "Now I lay me....."; and the >"lay of the land", probably add to the confusion. I very much doubt that >the old paradigms will ever become firmly reestablished. I wish I didn't >find it so irritating. Perhaps I should, like the White Queen, practice >believing impossible things before breakfast each day. (It might help in >swallowing the world news, too.) >A. Murie > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Jan 31 19:15:27 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:15:27 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: Didn't she say anything about 'write word'? >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/29/05 02:58PM >>> These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other. Anyone else notice this? I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." E pede Herculem, JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 19:52:46 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:52:46 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Eminent Domain" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACB63@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: > Nice work, Fred. This may be the origin of the term. But > wasn't The Law of Nations published in 1758? "Eminent domain" must have > been in it before 1805, because there are cases from 1796 that discuss > eminent domain and cite Vattel. Probably so. Here's an earlier, non-Vattel citation: 1783 _Board of American Loyalists.. The case and claim of the American loyalists impartially stated and considered. Printed by order of their agents._ 22 All these acts, with many others, are justifiable under the fundamental law of _eminent domain_, common to all civil societies. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From larry at SCROGGS.COM Mon Jan 31 20:14:36 2005 From: larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:14:36 -0800 Subject: Children's chant In-Reply-To: <20050131045215.0C6A223C568@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Heard at my school in the late 1950s. Whistle while you work Khrushchev is a jerk Eisenhower's got the power But it doesn't work. I scream You scream We all scream For ice cream The first Marine went over the wall Parle vous The second Marine went over the wall Parle vous The third Marine went over the wall Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball Inkey dinkey parle vous (There were several different verses of this) Larry Larry at Scroggs.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 20:57:44 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:57:44 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, okay. That makes complete sense. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 10:28 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray comments: >>>>>> > I thought that the symbol [x] was sufficient. If the symbol is > meaningless, what clarification will "voiceless velar fricative" > provide? > <<<<< > > um, I was responding to "guttural", without ready access to the > preceding > discussion. Of course I agree with you there. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 21:08:08 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:08:08 -0500 Subject: California vowels Message-ID: Here's a question: I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay [ok@] or possibly [okE]. Is this backing or laxing common in California speech? The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/. Might /e/ have gone to /E/ first and then to /@/? The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed. These guys are supposed to be in San Diego, maybe LA, but only Church seemed "native." Any comments? From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 21:15:39 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:15:39 -0500 Subject: I'd Hit It? Message-ID: I'm not sure if this is intentional, a huge screwup, or an inadvertent success: McDonald's is currently running a banner ad on ESPN.com, http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index, with the message "Double Cheeseburger? | I'd Hit It | I'm a Dollar Menu Guy." As you all know, "I'd hit it" means "I would like to have sex with that person," a sentiment that seems out of place when applied to a double cheeseburger. The ad is drawing comment, one example being http://andrewteman.typepad.com/worldchamp/2005/01/mcdonalds_wants. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Jan 31 21:28:38 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:28:38 -0800 Subject: final or linking /l/ Message-ID: I'm not sure this would qualify as linking /l/. I know many people who say withdrawal because they do not know that it is not a verb--they confuse the noun and verb. They use it in sentences like "I need to withdrawal the money." One would not expect linking /l/ before /th/ and I never hear these people say linking /l/ anywhere else. Might be analogous to 'acrosst.' fritz Juengling >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 01/31/05 10:52AM >>> Our local Sunday paper had a column by the managing editor stipulating rules for letters to the editor. She noted that some writers, having sent in a letter, then decide "to withdrawal it." I can only assume that she is from Southeast Ohio, where a linking /l/ is common. As in the case of my earlier cited "drawling," her pronunciation has slipped into her spelling. (No doubt she'll get some irate letters from the J-School or the English dept.) Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 1-740-593-4568 http://www.ohio.edu/linguistics/ From pds at VISI.COM Mon Jan 31 21:32:21 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:21 -0600 Subject: California vowels In-Reply-To: <20050131211022.D6DEC94FA@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Just curious, Beverly: where was the stress? --Tom Kysilko At 1/31/2005 04:08 PM -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Here's a question: I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that >the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay >[ok@] or possibly [okE]. Is this backing or laxing common in California >speech? The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and >backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/. Might /e/ have gone >to /E/ first and then to /@/? The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't >hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed >u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 21:50:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:50:13 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, I was really asking for info, not being defensive, Jon. How *would* a person tell? I've never seen any spelling in print except "woof" in this particular context, But, I heard this spoken years before I ever saw it in print. Even if "wolf" and "woof" had exactly the same pronunciation, I would still have to go with "wolf" and not "woof," because a "wolf-ticket" is a threat to mount a physical attack against someone. The "woofing" of a little cockerpoo would render the term ridiculous. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not every threat is made seriously. But even a joking threat has to sound threatening. At my age, I doubt that any young pepper-chest would take me seriously, if I threatened to kick his ass till my knee-joint caught on fire or if I threatened to reach down his throat and tear his asshole out. But if I threatened to step on his toes the next time that I saw him barefooted, I would sound brain-damaged and beyond ridiculous. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Words mispelled. Buttons rongpushed. Ize blured. World sems nycer.. > > JL. > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > How can one tell? > > -Wilson, just wondering > > On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." >> >> Losing it. >> >> JL >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. >> >> JL >> >> "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >>> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >>> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >>> clue. >>>> >>>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp >> >> I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > From stamasi at LINGUO.NET Mon Jan 31 22:03:44 2005 From: stamasi at LINGUO.NET (Susan Tamasi) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:44 -0500 Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male genitalia. Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"? Thanks, Susan Susan Tamasi Visiting Assistant Professor Program in Linguistics Emory University 404-727-7843 From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 31 22:06:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:06:47 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:42 -0600, Jim Parish wrote: >Mark A. Mandel lists several more examples of invented expletives in >SF. I would add: > >from Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_ (1951), "frab" (as in "frab >joint") and "slok" (as in "pile of slok"); > >and from the TV series "Farscape", a number of epithets including >"frell" (n. and v.: "what the frell", "this is a frelling mess"), "dren" >(again, "pile of..."), and "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). (I'm sure >there are more from that series that I'm forgetting.) A belated followup to this thread... I recently came across this list on Wikipedia: . Most of the examples mentioned thus far are included on the list, plus many more from "joojooflop" to "shpadoinkle". --Ben Zimmer From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Jan 31 22:11:41 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:11:41 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties In-Reply-To: <20050131093605.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The irresistible, singable, stick-in-your-mindable jingle is dead With more and more pop songs selling products, the world of advertising is being turned upside down. By Joan Anderman, Globe Staff | January 9, 2005 In 1929, a barbershop quartet in Minneapolis sang a song about breakfast cereal on the radio. So began the long, lucrative, endearing, and excruciating heyday of the jingle, when cheerful tunes about things for sale permanently lodged themselves in people's brains. Humming consumers would then go out and buy Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat, or double their pleasure with Doublemint gum, or be a Pepper. best, karen At 12:36 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: George Thompson >Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The children among us will not know that Burma Shave was a brand of >shaving soap which posted these rhymes on sets of small signs by the >roadside, each line on a separate sign. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Wilson Gray >Date: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:10 am >Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > > A couple from the 'Forties: > > > > We know > > How much > > You love that gal > > But use both hands > > When driving, pal > > Burma-Shave > > > > Car in ditch > > Man in tree > > Moon was full > > So was he > > Burma-Shave > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jerry E Kane > > > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > > -------- > > > > > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > > > > > Shaving brushes > > > You'll soon see 'em > > > On a shelf > > > In some museum > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > His cheek > > > Was rough > > > His chick vamoosed > > > And now she won't > > > Come home to roost > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > On curves ahead > > > Remember, sonny > > > That rabbit's foot > > > Didn't save > > > The bunny > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > If your peach > > > Keeps out > > > Of reach > > > Better practice > > > What we preach > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > > > > Jerry E Kane > > > Los Angeles, CA > > > > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jan 31 22:32:02 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:32:02 -0500 Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2005, at 17:03, Susan Tamasi wrote: > Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"? It's usually "frotteurist," less rarely "frotterist" or "frottist": someone who takes an erotic thrill from rubbing others in a sexual way, usually in public and usually unbeknownst to, or out of control of, the frottee. From the French verb "frotter," 'to rub or rub against," I believe. Google "frotteurist" for more than you ever wanted to know about it. The Wikipedia entry is decent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage_%28sexology%29 Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 22:59:41 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:59:41 -0500 Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex In-Reply-To: <47f243c441792055d1b51ea9e1a1f954@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: At 5:32 PM -0500 1/31/05, Grant Barrett wrote: > > >Google "frotteurist" for more than you ever wanted to know about it. >The Wikipedia entry is decent: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage_%28sexology%29 well, depending on one's sense of decency... L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:04:35 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: speak of the devil... Message-ID: ..hear the rustle of his wings. Note the last entry. L --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-16-302. Mon Jan 31 2005. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Subject: 16.302, TOC: English Today 20/4 (2004) Publisher: Cambridge University Press http://us.cambridge.org Journal Title: English Today Volume Number: 20 Issue Number: 4 Issue Date: October 2004 Main Text: Singapore, grammar, and the teaching of "internationally acceptable English" Tom Mcarthur Learning world languages Tom Mcarthur Persian loanwords in English Alan s. Kaye So what's in a book? Bob Blaisdell Latin and English as world languages Roger Wright The psychic rewards of teaching James e. Alatis Playful English: kinds of reduplication Paul Rastall "Is English we speaking": Trinbagonian in the twenty-first century Valerie Youssef Cucurbits Orin Hargraves The faces and facets of English in Malaysia Joanne Rajadurai Consonantal beginnings Michael Bulley Is the devil in the details? Jennifer Speake (ed.), 2003, The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, Oxford University Press (pp.xiv + 375. hb 0-19-860524-2) Robert Allen ----------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-16-302 --- end forwarded text From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:19:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:19:26 -0500 Subject: California vowels In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20050131153055.01c99960@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: I think it was on the first syllable. The context had the Giamatti character explaining something to Church, and Church was just nodding and saying "Okay" agreeably. I think my memory is right on this! At 04:32 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: >Just curious, Beverly: where was the stress? >--Tom Kysilko > >At 1/31/2005 04:08 PM -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>Here's a question: I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that >>the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay >>[ok@] or possibly [okE]. Is this backing or laxing common in California >>speech? The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and >>backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/. Might /e/ have gone >>to /E/ first and then to /@/? The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't >>hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed >>u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:21:54 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:21:54 -0500 Subject: final or linking /l/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting--I had never heard of this before. You may be right. But of course "acrosst" began with liaison to a vowel (if I'm not mistaken), though now it's generalized by many to all contexts. At 04:28 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: >I'm not sure this would qualify as linking /l/. I know many people who >say withdrawal because they do not know that it is not a verb--they >confuse the noun and verb. They use it in sentences like "I need to >withdrawal the money." One would not expect linking /l/ before /th/ and I >never hear these people say linking /l/ anywhere else. Might be analogous >to 'acrosst.' >fritz Juengling > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 01/31/05 10:52AM >>> >Our local Sunday paper had a column by the managing editor stipulating >rules for letters to the editor. She noted that some writers, having sent >in a letter, then decide "to withdrawal it." I can only assume that she is >from Southeast Ohio, where a linking /l/ is common. As in the case of my >earlier cited "drawling," her pronunciation has slipped into her >spelling. (No doubt she'll get some irate letters from the J-School or the >English dept.) > >Beverly Olson Flanigan >Associate Professor of Linguistics >Ohio University >Athens, OH 45701 >1-740-593-4568 >http://www.ohio.edu/linguistics/ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 23:42:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:42:15 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: I've already answered this one, Fritz.... JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: diffuse/ defuse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Didn't she say anything about 'write word'? >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/29/05 02:58PM >>> These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other. Anyone else notice this? I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." E pede Herculem, JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 23:50:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:50:39 -0800 Subject: I'd Hit It? Message-ID: Krafft-Ebing had an extensive chapter on cheeseburgers, but a "double"? If this is current elsewhere - and why not? - I haven't seen or heard it. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: I'd Hit It? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure if this is intentional, a huge screwup, or an inadvertent success: McDonald's is currently running a banner ad on ESPN.com, http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index, with the message "Double Cheeseburger? | I'd Hit It | I'm a Dollar Menu Guy." As you all know, "I'd hit it" means "I would like to have sex with that person," a sentiment that seems out of place when applied to a double cheeseburger. The ad is drawing comment, one example being http://andrewteman.typepad.com/worldchamp/2005/01/mcdonalds_wants. John Baker --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 23:59:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:59:51 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: The only way I could tell was that I saw the phrase in print back in '69 and it was explained that "wolf" was either the "correct" spelling or that "wolf" varied freely with "woof." Can't remember. As the kind of guy for whom these spelling unambiguously denote distinct words, it didn't occur to me right away that they were almost necessarily the same for many speakers. I was thinking not cockerpoo but mastiff. (To me, cockerpoos arf; things bigger than I am woof. These, along with "yip," are hyponyms of "bark.") (Could have said "are subsumed in," but I get even fewer opportunities to say "hyponym.") So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the published ones will be spelled "woof." In this racket, you can't win and you can't even break even! JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, I was really asking for info, not being defensive, Jon. How *would* a person tell? I've never seen any spelling in print except "woof" in this particular context, But, I heard this spoken years before I ever saw it in print. Even if "wolf" and "woof" had exactly the same pronunciation, I would still have to go with "wolf" and not "woof," because a "wolf-ticket" is a threat to mount a physical attack against someone. The "woofing" of a little cockerpoo would render the term ridiculous. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not every threat is made seriously. But even a joking threat has to sound threatening. At my age, I doubt that any young pepper-chest would take me seriously, if I threatened to kick his ass till my knee-joint caught on fire or if I threatened to reach down his throat and tear his asshole out. But if I threatened to step on his toes the next time that I saw him barefooted, I would sound brain-damaged and beyond ridiculous. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Words mispelled. Buttons rongpushed. Ize blured. World sems nycer.. > > JL. > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > How can one tell? > > -Wilson, just wondering > > On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." >> >> Losing it. >> >> JL >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. >> >> JL >> >> "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >>> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >>> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >>> clue. >>>> >>>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp >> >> I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Mon Jan 31 03:50:55 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:50:55 -0500 Subject: n-heads Message-ID: ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871 [Rochester, Indiana] http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/Html/Newspape rs%201871-72.htm >CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house he >proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He has >collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose. Michael McKernan From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Mon Jan 31 05:16:32 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:16:32 -0500 Subject: Children's chant Message-ID: Larry Scroggs wrote: >The first Marine went over the wall >Parle vous >The second Marine went over the wall >Parle vous >The third Marine went over the wall >Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball >Inkey dinkey parle vous >(There were several different verses of this) Also 1950s; interservice rivalry The first Marine went over the top Parlez vous? The first Marine went over the top Parlez vous? The first Marine went over the top To pick up the nickels the infantry dropped Hinky dinky parlez vous. Michael McKernan From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 00:10:57 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:10:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "French Fries" In-Reply-To: <59004.69.142.143.59.1104534908.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: French fries (OED 1918) 1903 _L.A. Times_ 20 Apr. 12 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) "Hello, Rex M!" he called in that jolly good-natured style of his which he always affects just after he has filled his artificial stomach with porterhouse and French fries. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Jan 1 01:39:02 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:39:02 -0500 Subject: technically correct subject-verb agreement In-Reply-To: <8F092D4A-5B6F-11D9-ADF0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, What a New Years Eve disappointment! I thought you were a local man. I like "override" just fine. dInIs >On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:50 AM, i wrote: > >>>>>Going to his house was what I lived for. There were liquor, music, >>>>>and >>>>>a strong desire for my body. >> >>just to remind people: this isn't a vote on what the "real" grammar of >>english is, or should be... > >and now, from the same book as the first quote (J.L. King, On the Down >Low, p. 159), this: >----- >The need [for a DL connection] and strong desire to make that >connection overrides all common sense. >----- > >this one has agreement with the nearest (either the embedded >"connection" or the head "desire" of the second conjunct, you can't >really tell), and i don't like it; i want "override". > >my guess is that a copyeditor "fixed" the first one, but just failed to >catch the second. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Sat Jan 1 02:27:36 2005 From: jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:27:36 -0800 Subject: some WOTY candidates, and others In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>ish(2) , adj.? 'sort of' (a liberated suffix) ish has been around since the early 80's, if not earlier. >>>pound, v. either 'drink quickly, chug' or 'have sex' Pound in both senses has been around at least as long as ish. Also, a drunk person is pounded. >>>bag fries, n. cpd. 'the French fries that fall out of their separate containers and end up at the bottom of the larger bag' This one's been around for a long time too. Remember it from mid-80's. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 03:01:31 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:01:31 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bulldozer" In-Reply-To: <200501010009.j0109C1X020335@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: This was word of the year for 1930, according to "America in So Many Words." bulldozer (OED, 2., 1930) 1929 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Mar. 38 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) The Trackson Company, logging hitches, full crawler attachments, cranes, bulldozers and backfillers, all of Milwaukee. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cloudacre at NORWOODCOLORADO.US Sat Jan 1 04:30:37 2005 From: cloudacre at NORWOODCOLORADO.US (Art Goodtimes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 21:30:37 -0700 Subject: some WOTY candidates, and others Message-ID: what about "paleohippie" = aging flower child? lots of post-war babies are joining the ranks of the AARPed see: /www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~34019~2514882,00.html art goodtimes On 31 Dec 2004 at 18:27, Jewls2u wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jewls2u > Subject: Re: some WOTY candidates, and others > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > >>>ish(2) , adj.? 'sort of' (a liberated suffix) > > ish has been around since the early 80's, if not earlier. > > >>>pound, v. either 'drink quickly, chug' or 'have sex' > > Pound in both senses has been around at least as long as ish. Also, a > drunk person is pounded. > > >>>bag fries, n. cpd. 'the French fries that fall out of their > >>>separate > containers and end up at the bottom of the larger bag' > > This one's been around for a long time too. Remember it from mid-80's. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jan 1 05:01:15 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:01:15 -0500 Subject: antecedent to modern bulldozer Message-ID: This interesting quotation suggests a new step in the development of the word bulldozer: "Bent the Car; A Huge Machine Comes to Town. Part of Apparatus to Make Trucks." Decatur [ILL.] Daily Review (NewspaperArchive.com), Sept. 9, 1903, p 2 The 60,000 pound "bull dozer" of the Tait Manufacturing company, mention a few days ago as due to arrive this week, came Tuesday. An idea of the weight could be formed by looking at the flat car on which the bulldozer came. The big machine was placed in the middle of the car. The floor was good when the machine was loaded, but now the car is fit for the repair shop. ... The bulldozer is to be used for bending steel rods. It can bend a piece of steel three by six inches, and probably more if the steel is heated. Happy New Year to all and to all a good night, David barnhart at highlands.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 05:30:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:30:23 EST Subject: French Fry (1901); Fuk Kin Fried Rice Message-ID: FRENCH FRIES ... I posted the following on 27 August 2002. ... 21 July 1901, New York Times, pg. SM19: Observe how I take this point of the blade and extract the eyes and bad spots in the potato, without haste, waste, or trouble! Now I take this end of the cutter and slice, and there you have the cubes or rectangles I would say for the famous French fry. Now I slice with this edge, and you have the world-renowned Saratoga chip. Now I slice with this, and you have the humble but popular German fry. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- FUK KIN FRIED RICE ... >From the menu of C&F Restaurant, 171 Hester Street: ... Ying Yang Fried Rice...10.95 Fuk Kin Fried Rice...9.95 ... Sure, you go there on a date and order the fuckin' fried rice. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT DINNER?--Joy Indian Restaurant, 301 Flatbush Avenue. I wanted to try Franny's, allegedly the best pizza in New York. There was no name on the place. A small sign said it was closed December 24-January 10. Joy is standard Indian. I walked back home over the Brooklyn Bridge. ... Happy new year everyone. Last year was pretty miserable and thankless. It started with the Big Apple whores. It ended with me begging the Chicago Tribune ombudsman to correct something that I never said, and to get credit for my work that was used. 2005 and the future will surely be even worse. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 06:02:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 01:02:02 EST Subject: Root Canal Republicans Message-ID: ROOT CANAL REPUBLICANS--24 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits ... I don't think this has been mentioned. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Confronting the Deficit/Debt Boogyman_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.econ/browse_frm/thread/ae9bd8b4f9f8871b/76976bf2341439c3?q="root+canal +republicans"&_done=/groups?q="root+canal+republicans"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2co ff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#76976bf2341439c3) ... Right now it looks bleak with the Root-Canal Republicans in control, but it is only a matter of time before another Reagan comes along. ... _sci.econ_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.econ) - Apr 23 1992, 8:33 pm by Ed Ipser - 70 messages - 23 authors ... _#Why Bush Is Rolling Over Daschle on Taxes_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc/browse_frm/thread/b27e493ccb91bac3/5e452c6ecdcddc70 ?q="root+canal+republicans"&_done=/groups?q="root+canal+republicans"&hl=en&lr= &ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#5e452c6ecdcddc70) ... Democrats are left sounding like root-canal Republicans chanting, "his numbers don't add up" and it's all "too good to be true." Mr. Bush has managed to make ... _talk.politics.misc_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc) - Mar 2 2001, 6:20 am by Sam Barber - 1 message - 1 author From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jan 1 06:50:20 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 01:50:20 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In a recent item regarding the Indian Ocean earthquake disaster, AP writer Matt Moore provides the following, which can be found at hundreds of Web sites, and I suppose in the printed papers: <> I cannot find any "Christina Blomee" other than in this piece. There are of course Web mentions of Haywood U. Blomee and Hugo N. Blomee. Is Blomee a real surname? Is this the new feminine version of "Joe Blow", an arbitrary name referring to just "somebody or other"? It seems a little closer to the knuckle than "Joe Blow", maybe. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 08:31:13 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 03:31:13 EST Subject: Tsunami (1896) Message-ID: "Tsunami" for WOTY? ... ... (OED) [a. Jap. tsunami, tunami, f. tsu harbour + nami waves.] A brief series of long, high undulations on the surface of the sea caused by an earthquake or similar underwater disturbance. These travel at great speed and often with sufficient force to inundate the land; freq. misnamed a tidal wave (see _TIDAL_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=tsunami&first=1&max_to_show=10&single=1&sort_type=alpha&xrefword=tidal&p s=a.) a. 1b). Also fig. and attrib. 1897 L. HEARN Gleanings in Buddha-Fields i. 24 ?Tsunami!? shrieked the people; and then all shrieks and all sounds and all power to hear sounds were annihilated by a nameless shock..as the colossal swell smote the shore with a weight that sent a shudder through the hills. 1904 Publ. Earthquake Investigation Comm. Foreign Lang. (Japan) XIX. 6 Records and reports of earthquakes and ?tsunamis?. 1938 Nature 12 Nov. 881/2 The authenticity of the reports of earthquakes mentioned in these catalogues is weighed..with records of tunamis. 1956 Jrnl. Earth Sci. Nagoya Univ. IV. 2 The tunamis associated with strong earthquakes are frequent in Japan. 1967 Technology Week 23 Jan. 34/1 This system would predict..tsunami run-up floods. 1970 Daily Tel. 27 Nov. 11/7 A tsunami generated off Chile by the 1960 earthquake crashed into Japan on the other side at 400 m.p.h. 1972 Science 11 Aug. 502/1 The Food and Drug Administration..is currently swimming through a tsunami of comments generated by its announced intention to alter the regulations concerning the dispensation of methadone. 1981 Monitor (McAllen, Texas) 30 Jan. 3A/3 The National Weather Service..issued a tsunami warning. 1984 W. GOLDING Paper Men viii. 89 It seemed to me that I could feel the indifferent threat of the earth through the soles of my feet, the volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, terrors of nature's fact. ... 28 November 1897, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 49: _STORM, FIRE, AND FLOOD AS WOVEN INTO FICTION BY POPULAR AUTHORS._ LAFCADIO HEARN's new book, "Gleanings in Buddha Fields," contains a pretty story of how an old man came to be worshiped as a god while still living (...) "'Tsunami!' shrieked the people; and then all shrieks and all sounds and all power to hear sounds were annihilated by a nameless shock heavier than any thunder, as the colossal swell smote the shore with a weight that sent a shudder through the hills and with a foam-burst like a blaze of sheet lightning." ... (MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL) * _A Living God_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/atla/atla0078/&tif=00839.TIF&cite=http://c dl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-112) , by _Lafcadio Hearn_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/ww-idx?type=author&q1=Hearn,%20Lafcadio) : pp. 833-841 * _p. 837_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/atla/atla0078/&tif=00843.TIF&cite=http://cdl.lib rary.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-112) 1 match of 'tsunami' * _p. 839_ (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/atla/atla0078/&tif=00845.TIF&cite=http://cdl.lib rary.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK2934-0078-112) 1 match of 'tsunami' ____________________________________ in: Title: The Atlantic monthly. / Volume 78, Issue 470 Publisher: Atlantic Monthly Co. Publication Date: Dec 1896 ... (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) Author: Hepburn, J. C. (James Curtis), 1815-1911. Title: Japanese-English and English-Japanese dictionary. Publication date: 1873. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Jan 1 11:45:52 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 06:45:52 -0500 Subject: Media Contact List Message-ID: As we approach the annual ADS meeting, I want to remind everyone that we have a media contact list on the web site that all ADS members with expertise are invited to join. Send your name, title, affiliations, areas of expertise, a short list of publications, a contact phone number, and an email address and I'll add you. This is the current list: http://www.americandialect.org/mediacontacts.html Grant Barrett ADS Webmaster gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 1 14:41:08 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:41:08 -0500 Subject: multiplex, megaplex, googolplex... Message-ID: * multiplex (cinema), a. (OED3 1982) [1969 _New York Times_ 20 July F15/2 Mr. Durwood said the multi-theater complex was catching on, now that the relationship between the retail center and the theater operator is becoming clear.] 1971 _Lincoln Star_ (Nebraska) 27 Apr. 13/1 Stanley H. Durwood, president of A.M.C., a wholly owned chain, not a franchise operation, has announced the opening of 7 multiplex theaters in 13 cities this year, an addition of more than 20,000 seats. 1971 _Lincoln Star_ (Nebraska) 28 Apr. 4/1 A Kansas City firm, American Multi-Cinema, Inc., has announced the opening of seven multiplex theaters in 13 cities, a total of 97 separate cinema operations. ... The multiplex idea is the building of combination theaters, usually in shopping centers, where two to four different movies are playing at the same time. * multiplex, n. (OED3 1982) 1972 _Washington Post_ 21 June B6/3 Marvin Goldman, who runs Washington's 15-theater KB chain and is vice president of the local National Association of Theater Owners chapter, agrees that shopping centers and multiplexes are at the crest of the wave of the future. * multi, n. = multiplex cinema (OED3 1988) 1970 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 9 Feb. 18/5 American Multi-Cinema, Inc., has come up with a unique way to cash in on the compacts: it puts them together as doubles, quadruplets or sextuplets. The Kansas City-based movie exhibitor claims to be the pioneer in "multis." 1972 _Washington Post_ 21 June B6/1 Perhaps the most obvious advantage of the multi is the fact that if you've got a bomb in one house, you still have a chance of salvaging the evening with a hit in another. 1972 _Washington Post_ 21 June B6/2 The shopping center location make the multi's even more inviting. * (N)-plex (OED2 1974, though not in the cinema sense) 1970 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 9 Feb. 18/5 Recently, it has gone to "six-plexes" in Omaha, Dallas and Houston. ... Next on the horizon for the showman, a 12-plex, or quads stacked on three floors. 1971 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 28 June 15 Currently, AMC is operating or building 203 auditoriums in 31 cities, scattered around 15 states; all are twin, quad or six-plex houses. * megaplex, n. (not yet in OED) 1988 _Business Journal_ (Portland, OR) 7 Nov. 7 (Proquest) (heading) Kruse Way site chosen for 10-screen megaplex. 1990 _Independent_ (London) 3 Jan. 22 (Nexis) "We are extremely bullish about cinema entertainment and are taking the multiplex concept one step further by building 'megaplexes'," said Mr Jenkins. "These will comprise up to 16 auditoriums with total seating of 7,000 at one site." 1996 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. H19/2 The megaplex, defined as a theater with 16 or more screens and deluxe accommodations, took hold in the late 1980's; soon Imax and 3-D theaters, video games, cappuccino machines and virtual reality games popped up in the megaplexes. * megaplex, a. (not yet in OED) 1991 _Los Angeles Times_ 5 Dec. 25 (Proquest) Westwood Boulevard's strip of Iranian shops and restaurants, a quarter-mile of signs in curling Farsi script located south of the skyscrapers and megaplex movie theaters. 1993 _St. Petersburg Times_ (Florida) 24 Apr. 4B (Nexis) So what about parking for this megaplex theater that would seat 3,500 to 4,500 people? 1995 _Sunday Mail_ (SA) 1 Oct. 24 (Nexis) The biggest will be at Westfield Marion where a giant 16-screen "megaplex" cinema will seat 5000. * googolplex (jocular, not yet in OED) 1991 _Re: Read the NYT or Die!_ in _soc.college_ (Usenet newsgroup) 16 Feb., I'd prefer the Century Googolplex, given that I have some remote chance of seeing a movie there. 1992 _Re: Colonel Homer_ in _alt.tv.simpsons_ (Usenet newsgroup) 27 Mar., Anyway, the googolplex joke is pretty old -- where I come from they are routinely called googolplexes, nanoplexes, gigaplexes, etc. etc. [Referring to a _Simpsons_ episode in which there is a sign for "Springfield Googolplex Theatres"] 1993 _Boston Globe_ 13 June (City Weekly) 11 (Nexis) Summer blockbusters such as "Jurassic Park" and "Last Action Hero" are about to invade your local googolplex cinema. 1996 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. H19/5 As the megaplex of today becomes the googolplex of tomorrow (AMC plans to open a 30-screen theater in Ontario, Calif., next year), are art houses in danger of being pushed out of existence? 1997 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland, Ohio) 14 Nov. 4 (Nexis) Opulence and swooning of this magnitude are rarely seen in today's cramped googolplexes. (several more cites available on Nexis) * gigaplex (jocular, not yet in OED) 1992 _Re: Colonel Homer_ in _alt.tv.simpsons_ (Usenet newsgroup) 27 Mar., Anyway, the googolplex joke is pretty old -- where I come from they are routinely called googolplexes, nanoplexes, gigaplexes, etc. etc. 1993 _Menace II Jurassic Park_ in _bit.listserv.cinema-l_ (Usenet newsgroup) 24 June, The following day, my movie craving still not sated, I nursed the Almobile over to the gigaplex & plunked myself down in front of Menace II Society. 1995 _Boston Globe_ 23 Oct. 50 (Nexis) We read the book on three-hour airport layovers, we saw the movie at the local gigaplex and on cable - but no, we will not watch "The Client" in its criminally boring Tuesday-night incarnation on CBS. 1995 _Tampa Tribune_ (Florida) 31 Dec. 17 (Nexis) Coming soon to a gigaplex near you. (several more cites available on Nexis) --Ben Zimmer From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jan 1 19:48:28 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:48:28 -0500 Subject: Fwd: msg about Barry Message-ID: Forwarded for Jerry Cohen: ----- Barry Popik wrote, Dec. 31 2004: [...] Happy new year everyone. Last year was pretty miserable and thankless. It started with the Big Apple whores. It ended with me begging the Chicago Tribune ombudsman to correct something that I never said, and to get credit for my work that was used. 2005 and the future will surely be even worse. ********** Hey, wait a minute. 2004 finally saw Barry receive journalistic credit for his outstanding work on "Windy City." 2004 also saw the appearance of _Origin of the Term "Hot Dog"_ (by Barry Popik, Gerald Cohen, and the late David Shulman)--again including Barry's outstanding research; 3/4 of the "hot dog" book contains material unearthed by Barry. The "Big Apple" whore theory is clearly (to scholars, not to journalists) a hoax, but that matter will be properly dealt with in the second edition of _Origin of the NYC's Nickname "The Big Apple"_. Barry will be listed as co-author, and this book should appear in 2005 or perhaps 2006. Then there was the NY Times article about Barry; I forget the exact date, but it appeared in 2004. The overall picture with Barry's research is that several of his favorite projects are coming to fruition, and I'm working at all deliberate speed to have his ads-l material appear in the working papers Comments on Etymology. He already has the admiration of the scholars familiar with his work, and journalistic recognition is now also coming. (Don't forget Ed Zotti's excellent Wall Street Journal article about him a few years ago). Gerald Cohen ----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 1 20:21:27 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:21:27 EST Subject: Donburi or Domburi (1949) Message-ID: DONBURI--27,300 Google hits, 572 Google Groups hits DOMBURI--1,530 Google hits, 56 Google Groups hits (Neither "donburi" nor "domburi" is in the OED anywhere. Just awful on food.) ... ... I was walking around Chinatown. Mikata Japanese Cuisine, 150 Centre Street, has "Donburi (Rice Delicacies)." I see from the archives that I had posted a fine 1962 citation for "domburi," but that's it. ... The Asia Society has a nice new food site, what I should be doing if I could find a food webmaster: ... _www.asiafood.org_ (http://www.asiafood.org) Domburi This is a heavy earthenware lidded bowl much used in Japan, and also refers to the food cooked or served in it. >From Charmaine Solomon's _Encyclopedia of Asian Food_ (http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/forms/9625934170.html) , Periplus Editions,1998,supplied courtesy of New Holland Publishers (Australia) Pty Ltd. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 23 August 1950, Los Angeles Times, pg. A1: _SASHIMI?_--"No sake, please," I told Sue Mira. She is a very Japanese girl at the very Kawafuku Cafe, or sukiyaki house. It's on the littoral of Little Tokyo. "Just sukiyaki." She asked me if I wanted some unagi donburi. She said that is eel on steamed rice. ... 11 July 1958, New York Times, pg. 26 (RESTAURANT GUIDE): Fuji 238 W. 56th St. off B'way Real Japanese Food & Atmosphere. Specialties Sukiyaki, Tempura, Donburi. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 7 November 1949, Dothan Eagle (Dothan, Alabama), pg. 5, col. 4: _Donalsonville Group_ _Complete Study_ _Course On Japan_ (...) Another afternoon the class enjoyed the dish, Okayko Domburi, which means "parent and child," the members using chopsticks. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:13:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:13:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Lexeme" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: lexeme (OED 1940) 1938 _American Anthropologist_ (n.s.) 40: 508 In the verb, the most complex of all the lexeme-classes, there are several pronominal sets of inflectional endings differentiated as to aspect, mode, and tense. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 1 22:11:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:11:46 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this name? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:29:24 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:29:24 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic Atlas" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: linguistic atlas (OED 1923) 1917 _Amer. Historical Rev._ XXIII. 172 A full linguistic atlas of Europe is a desideratum. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:36:45 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:36:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Loan Translation" In-Reply-To: <200501012227.j01MRgqf008011@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: loan translation (OED 1933) 1931 _Modern Language Journal_ XVI. 127 The question _How goes it?_, which is occasionally heard in the United States, is not idiomatic; it is a loan translation. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 1 22:55:18 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:55:18 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Psycholinguistic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: psycholinguistic (OED 1936) 1931 _Columbia Law Rev._ XXXI. 185 The purpose of the author in examining these decisions is to discover the psycho-linguistic processes of the judge in adopting the meaning of the particular form-word involved. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 1 23:00:36 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:00:36 -0600 Subject: t-day, more Message-ID: Barry has pushed "turkey day" back to 1887. "FOREIGN AFFAIRS Letters From The Front" By George C. Wilson, _National Journal_ Friday, Feb. 1, 2002 [excerpt from an anonymous email from a Naval aviator off the USS Theodore Roosevelt] "For Thanksgiving, the ship dressed up the wardroom, dimmed down the lights, and put out a nice T-day spread and, for a brief moment, it was almost like being home." beer days [later in the same article] "Speaking of beer, somewhere in the Navy regulations it's written down that for every 45 consecutive days that you spend at sea without a port call, you rate two beers. Two weeks ago, they broke out 10,000 beers for the crew to tear into, for this deployment's first of many "beer days." " college of cardinals _Almanac of American Politics_, Michael Barone with Richard E. Cohen and Grant Ujifusa; National Journal Group, 2002. New York: Twenty-Fifth District, Rep. James T. Walsh "Walsh has a seat on the Appropriations Committee, and has now been chairman of three subcommittees--part of the ''college of cardinals,'' in House lingo." _Charlie Wilson's War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History_, by George Crile; Atlantic Monthly Press Books, 2003. p. 77. "He'd first broken from the pack and become a part of the legend of his party in 1976, when he'd defied his own Texas delegation and maneuverd his way onto the all-powerful Appropriations Committee. That move had made Wilson a player -- one of fifty House members with a vote on how the government's $500 billion annual budget would be spent. " "Earmarking, a Way to Send Millions of Dollars Home", Tim Weiner Jul 13, 1994; The New York Times pg. D18/4 "To earmark a program, a member must have the ear of one of the 13 chairmen of the House Appropriations subcommittees. The chairmen, nicknamed "the college of cardinals" by their colleagues, have the power to distribute billions of dollars a year to favored programs." forty acres _Backyard Brawl : Inside the Blood Feud Between Texas and Texas A & M_ by W. K. Stratton; Crown Publishers, 2002. p. 88 "In fact, some Longhorn alumni complained during the 1990s that they were losing out on game seats to high-tech immigrants from out of state with deep pockets who wanted to be part of the UT football scene, never mind that they'd never set foot in a classroom on the Forty Acres, as the Texas campus is known." From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 2 00:43:27 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:43:27 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050101014027.02f64cf0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 2 00:57:49 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:57:49 -0500 Subject: "Cat faces" on tomatoes (1934) In-Reply-To: <20050101050027.98D63B250C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry gives a bunch of citations, including these, here reordered chronologically : >>>>> (OED) cat-face (U.S.), a mark in lumber-wood (see quot.); 1879 Lumberman's Gaz. 3 Dec., Logs that have *cat faces or burnt places..the cat face or knots. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 24 August 1934. Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 17: [...] the fruit blotches referred to by the trade as "cat faces." Found the name of the disfiguration is called "Cat face". ... _rec.gardens_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens) - Sep 21 1993, 10:44 pm by Gayle Chidester - 3 messages - 3 authors _http://fogcity.blogs.com/_ (http://fogcity.blogs.com/) ... _Forget about taste, Florida says, these tomates are just too ugly to ship. [...] the lush, vine-ripened UglyRipes have what the industry calls a "cat face," full of uneven crevices and ridges. (GOOGLE) _Gawker : Archive for Media : New York Times_ (http://www.gawker.com/news/media/new-york-times/index.php) ... And that's what we're calling our movie pitch: "Cat Face: The Little Tomato That Could." <<<<< In the three 1934-1936 citations, all from the Chicago Daily Tribune (written by the same reporter?), "cat face" is a count nominal; the 1879 lumber citation from the OED has a count use and what may be a non-count use, "the cat face or knots", or not: the ellipsis there is the OED's, not Barry's. The rec.gardens quote is non-count. The other modern ones are all quoting or derived from the New York Times article, so they aren't independent sources. (The Gawker cite is furthermore a joke and shouldn't be counted for anything.) They seem to refer to the appearance of the fruit as a whole. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 2 01:10:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:10:59 -0500 Subject: Sanas of... In-Reply-To: <20041231050053.2A531B291D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dan, is there any word that you can't derive from Irish? And if not, what's the point, since they can't all be? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Jan 2 01:18:53 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:18:53 -0500 Subject: Tsunami/sunami Message-ID: I've been getting most of my news about the tsunami and its aftermath from the newspaper and the web, but I do have the radio on a bit in the morning. Yesterday morning, I noticed tsunami being pronounced with an initial /s/, rather than the more authentically Japanese but definitely non-English [ts]. Increasing frequency of usage leading to nativization... -- Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 2 02:23:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:23:42 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: <20050101221146.81930.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0800 1/1/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for >seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore >concerning this name? > >JL > Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. Larry From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 2 02:32:21 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:32:21 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050101194110.02f63250@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: A little more searching shows that there was a Christina among those mentioned on the Web as missing at Khao Lak. The name wasn't Blomee; I won't say what it was. Maybe the journalist had sense enough not to put the real name in his article. Maybe he just chose an unusual replacement, to make sure he wouldn't use somebody's real name. But what about the editor(s) (if any) at AP and at the hundreds of newspapers running the piece? The name appears in the first line of the article: the "grabber" or whatever it's called. -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 2 04:15:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:15:06 -0600 Subject: skiddoo Message-ID: I don't endorse this etymology, just passing it on. From: Sunday, August 26, 1906 The Sunday [Williamsport PA] Grit - Local Edition page 8 col 2 "Skidoo" A Syrian Insult Resented by a Shawl Peddler, and a Scene Ensues in Court. The origin of the word "skidoo" has at last been established. The discovery was made in the Essex Market Police court, New York city. It is of Syrian origin and if you don't want to get into trouble don't say "skidoo" to a Syrian, because he is apt to take it seriously. At least Samuel Solomon, who was the cause of the discovery, took it that way. Solomon is a shawl merchant. Loaded with a choice collection of prayer shawls and rugs, he invaded the ghetto. He reached Stanton and Ridge streets late in the ??????. He was hungry and the luscious bananas on the cart of Jacob Smith made his mouth water. "How much?" said Solomon. "Cent apiece," replied Smith. "Too much," said Solomon. "Skidoo," replied Smith. Solomon glared angrily. "Twenty-three," repeated Smith. Then things began to happen. Solomon made a rush for Smith and Smith countered with a handful of overripe fruit. Just as things were waxing strenuous Policeman Wagner butted in and haled [sic] both to the Essex market court. "What is the trouble?" asked Magistrate Wahle. "He insulted me, chudge," replied Solomon. "How so?" asked the court. "He said 'skidoo' to me." "That's no insult." "Yes, it is. That's Syrian and it means something very disrespectful to my parents." "Well, it's English, too," said the court, "and it means 'beat it.' Now get out." From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 2 04:25:39 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:25:39 -0600 Subject: diner slang Message-ID: A Diner Slang Quiz John Clarke Gastronomica; Fall 2003; pg. 122 America's original quick-bite places -- the main-street soda fountain, the corner luncheonette, and the roadside diner -- shared a special, often secret, culture of language. During the Golden Age of slinging slang from 1925 to 1945, waitstaff and kitchen workers communicated in a colorful shorthand. How good is your slang? See if you can match the twelve sassy terms in Column A with the classic American home-style desserts in Column B. Bonus Question: "Give me Eve with the roof on, a crow slab covered in spla, maiden and tar, plus a stretch with frost and sissy sticks!" What's being ordered? 1. Ant paste A. Apple pie 2. Bellyache B. Chocolate pudding 3. Chinese Wedding Cake C. Custard pie 4. Gold fish D. Cruller 5. House boat E. Banana split 6. Matrimony knot F. Fudge 7. Magoo G. Bowl of strawberry gelatin 8. Ploughed field H. Ice cream sundae 9. Shivering Liz in I. Sliced peaches the hay 10. Slabs of sin J. Rice pudding 11. Snow White on a stick K. Turnover 12. Windbag L. Vanilla ice cream cone Answers: 1-B, 2-H, 3-J, 4-I, 5-E, 6-D, 7-C, 8-F, 9-G, 10-A, 11-L, 12-K Bonus Question: Apple pie with a top crust, chocolate pie covered in whipped cream, cherry pie and a mug of coffee, and a large Coke with crushed ice and two straws! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 2 04:50:57 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:50:57 -0600 Subject: sigalert Message-ID: BEHIND THE WHEEL; 'Traffic Talk' Translates Into Tie-Ups Avoided; Radio reporting on freeway conditions has a lingo all its own. But does it drive home the message to motorists?; [Home Edition] LISA LEFF. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 19, 2002. pg. B.2 " And what about the ubiquitous "SigAlert"? For the record, the CHP defines it as an unscheduled lane closure lasting at least half an hour. The familiar phrase, universally understood as meaning a bad traffic tie-up, was created in the mid-1950s by LAPD Police Chief William H. Parker as a tongue-in-cheek tribute to broadcast pioneer Loyd C. Sigmon. Sigmon, in a bid to improve ratings on the radio station he co- owned with Gene Autry, persuaded Parker to participate in an experiment in which officers would alert the station over special shortwave receivers whenever a freeway delay or other emergency was developing. As local legend has it, the reticent police chief supposedly quipped, "We're going to name this damn thing 'SigAlert.'" And the expression got stuck, just like all the baffled commuters." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 04:51:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:51:14 EST Subject: "That'll learn 'em!" (1923); Bonkers (Yonkers, Bronxville) Message-ID: THAT'LL LEARN 'EM ... THAT'LL LEARN--13,100 Google Hits, 8,120 Google Groups hits ... The Knicks played the Nets tonight. The Knicks' Stephon Marbury declared himself the best point guard on the planet. The Knicks' Jamal Crawford said there's no rivalry--the Nets stink. ... The Nets won the game. "That'll learn 'em!" posted one fan. ... This is not in the OED and not in HDAS. DARE has an entry for "learn" going back to 1769, but no "that'll learn him." There's one 1899 "I'd learn you." ... Nothing appears to show up until the 1920s, and then the expression seems to have become widespread in the 1930s. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _THE GORILLA AND THE GIRL; GORILLA AND THE GIRL _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=342339632&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104638454&clientId=65882) THOMAS BURKE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 23, 1923. p. XI4 (2 pages) ... First page: "That'll learn yeh to keep yeh tongue quiet. ... ... 2. _"Times" Daily Short Story; A PAIR OF SOCKS _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=368894492&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN ame=HNP&TS=1104638454&clientId=65882) OCTAVUS ROY COHEN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 14, 1927. p. 11 (1 page) : The big palooka starts for me, and in self-defense I hit. Bess squelas, "The one-two," she yells. "That'll learn him whose wife to insult!" ... ... _THAT'LL LEARN 'EM_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=228157202&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104639729&clie ntId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 20, 1951. p. C6 (1 page) ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Bismarck Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2oS7Q8uFj9mVcC6WXqZmz/8nyVnYmGViGw==) Wednesday, June 03, 1931 _Bismarck,_ (http://www.newspaperarch ive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bismarck+that) _North Dakota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north_dakota+that) ...to make a for 30 Pathfinder THAT'LL LEARN 'EM father likes the young eve to.....prominent official savs it pub- Hcitv that Capone and other He noted.. ... _Charleston Daily Mail _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2nC7gGdJOAml1nMhOaJmDhQjbtL4V7NJxQ==) Monday, July 04, 1932 _Charleston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:charleston+that) _West Virginia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:west_virginia+that) ...look after hisself for a bit. THAT'LL LEARN I'll be sor- ry to lose ou Maybe.....secretary. You know as well as I do that I must take anything that I can.. ... _Appleton Post Crescent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2ktCtNw4NUlTgCz8ir8TIE22e3BKI3+lFg==) Monday, April 08, 1929 _Appleton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+that) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+that) ...amused eyes and muttered, 'THAT'LL LEARN 'em to let But his "Ma" baking.....exclaimed blankly. "Here Let me have that receiver, Faith." "I'll do no such.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2rYynu+yLaeNjhJ8Wevnm1WWEFJK8xUIR0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, November 13, 1921 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+that) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+that) ...and Alf turned to tie door. '.'THAT'LL LEARN he panted." "I don't -want no more.....been some underhand -work going on, I'll dp all that man can do to put things.. ... _Newark Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2oHHF/C3HUebonLjoFogHAPqJleqkjQqbEIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, April 06, 1929 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+that) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+that) ...amused eyes and muttered, "THAT'LL LEARN. Mm to let trees alone. I'll go.....grin. Ijillian joined in "Just for that you'll wait a spell to hear the.. ... _Ironwood Daily Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2oKLDG5TtKTLS1gxpX4E8Ox5SA8Cl27YiEIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, April 01, 1929 _Ironwood,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+that) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+that) ...pump, merely with amused 'THAT'LL LEARN Miss Linda. Mueller, of.....no other entertainments of note for that date, It Is probable that the.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- BONKERS ... I thought today's New York Post "Home" section would be online, but I didn't see this article. It mentions a "micro-neighborhood" (that word again) of Yonker and Bronxville that's just "Bonkers." ... (GOOGLE) _Commentary: ZIP codes share the wealth_ (http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.html) ... It's an old joke in these parts that people blessed with the 10708 ZIP live neither in Yonkers nor Bronxville but in "Bonkers." Insanity notwithstanding, the ... www.nyjournalnews.com/ newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.html - 46k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TEZBiCa4-WMJ:www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.html+bonkers+yonkers+bronxville&h l=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/051303/b01p13reisman.ht ml) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--The weather has been great and I was walking all over. The only problem was that it gets dark early and I found myself in Bed-Stuy, and that's not good. I walked on Graham Avenue and Manhattan Avenue, but didn't find a good place. ... I ate at Congee, 98 Bowery. The place has some nice write-ups in the window. It's always busy, mostly with a Chinese crowd. It was good, but I couldn't taste any vast difference from anywhere else. Someone at my table (a regular here) said the fried chicken is outstanding, but I didn't order that...There aren't tables for one, so I sat at a round table with other diners. In some ways, it's better that way since you can talk to other diners. I had the congee, and it was good, but it's still porridge. ... FYI, here's a review, both of the Congee restaurant and of Chinatown: ... _http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0307/sietsema.php_ (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0307/sietsema.php) ... Just as Fuzhou restaurants had become so numerous, especially along East Broadway, that there seemed no way to distinguish them; and just as the giant Hong Kong banquet and dim sum palaces had slunk off like dinosaurs looking for a place to die; and just as the Malaysian restaurants had stopped multiplying like the Shanghai and Vietnamese places before them, surrendering our enthusiasm in the process; so had the neighborhood seemed almost dead again, except to the throngs of Chinese shoppers who descend each day from all corners of the city to buy the freshest meats, fish, and produce, and the Noah's ark of dried sea creatures set out on the sidewalk in boxes, expecting nothing from Chinatown's myriad restaurants except a bowl of congee and a fried cruller. But Chinatown never stops remaking itself. Get a glimpse of its new face at Congee, which opened without fanfare on a stretch of the Bowery that hasn't seen a good restaurant in decades, if ever. Congee is obviously inspired by Congee Village, the neighborhood's biggest success story of the last decade, which, though it recently doubled in size, still requires 30-minute waits. The Congee Village formula incorporates dishes from Hong Kong and south China, throwing in things from the Chinese diaspora of Southeast Asia and America. On one hand are funky organ meats that most Occidentals wouldn't touch; on the other are American favorites like chow mein and fried chicken. You can blow a wad on abalone or shark's fin soup, but the lower end of the price range is equally well-served, with loads of dumplings, over-rice bargains, and, of course, congees. While Congee Village is located just south of Delancey Street, Congee is planted in the older Chinatown, in a high-ceilinged space that could have been a bank lobby or religious sanctuary. Bacchanalian grapes adorn the faux stained-glass windows, and grapes made from Christmas ornaments dangle from the ceiling. Despite the vinic motif, wine is nowhere to be found, except in the red rice-wine vinegar thoughtfully served with soups, the traditional start of a south Chinese meal. Eight precious fish maw soup ($9.95, easily enough for four) is particularly good, though after identifying scallops, squid, shrimp, and the maws, which are cottony like the ends of Q-tips, we gave up counting. A dash of vinegar sends the soup into orbit. The menu includes a whopping 252 dishes in 15 groupings, and, even with large groups of diners and three visits, we could only scratch the surface. The best dish was the long-winded "sauteed dried squid and dried shrimp with green and yellow chives" ($16.95), looking like a haystack set in a sunny field. Second place went to salt baked squid ($8.95), fresh baby creatures fried with cashews and thinly sliced jalape?os, not as spicy as it sounds. Fried chicken ($9 for a large half) is a restaurant specialty, rendered crisp, heaped with chopped scallions, and lapped with a featherweight garlic dipping sauce. Skip the Shanghai soup dumplings: thick-skinned, undersouped, and leaden, they're clearly out of the restaurant's territory. In fact, skip all the dumplings? the glory days of dim sum palaces like Golden Unicorn and Triple Eights can never be revisited. But by all means order congee, slightly more delicate and gingery than Congee Village's. The announced specialty is superb from the luxury bowl of lobster ($5.75), which really does contain a decent amount of crustacean, to the peasant grab-bag of sampan ($3.50), topped with roast salted peanuts like some baseball-stadium snack. This rice gruel, also known as jook, is a mainstay of Cantonese food. So ultimately, Congee represents the restoration of Cantonese food to its traditional Chinatown bastion, in a new, more versatile guise. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 07:40:24 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:40:24 EST Subject: Sigalert (1954) Message-ID: MISC. OFF-TOPIC: FAT ALBERT--An interesting part of my Saturday walk was seeing a store called FAT ALBERT. Outside the store, on the sidewalk, they were selling DVDs of FAT ALBERT for "fie dollars." SKIDOO--It ain't Syrian. I explained this term in the old ADS-L archives. It was combined with "23" by vaudeville performer Billy Vann. 2004--Yeah, I took some trips to Mali, Senegal, Ghana, Namibia, Panama, Bhutan, India, Singapore, and such, published two books, started a web site, and was featured in articles in the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, and Toronto Globe and Mail. But the bottom line is, I didn't make a single bloody nickel from all that. The Times article was twelve years overdue; it was humiliating to smile for the photo. I decided to stay in town for the Big Apple Fest summer, and not a single radio or tv program interviewed me. I have still not been on radio or tv anywhere in New York or in Chicago; nor has my work on the names of those cities made the evening news.. I was in town and they were short judges, so I thought it would be a good idea to do parking tickets five days a week again. In my spare time, I begged (unsuccessfully) to pay someone for health care. And on a vacation from all that to Bhutan, the tour guide told me that I was too old to be loved, and I was on the internet too much, and my friend David Shulman, well, he was 93 (I had said about 92, maybe 93) and had it coming. Yeah, it was a great year in a wonderful life. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SIGALERT Mr. Mullins posted: . The familiar phrase, universally understood as meaning a bad traffic tie-up, was created in the mid-1950s by LAPD Police Chief William H. Parker as a tongue-in-cheek tribute to broadcast pioneer Loyd C. Sigmon. ... ... (GOOGLE) _LA Observed: Loyd Sigmon, LA traffic icon was 95 * Archives_ (http://www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html) ... Loyd Sigmon, who created the traffic warning while a co-owner of KMPC radio, died yesterday in an Oklahoma assisted living facility. ... www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html - 101k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-DgXZPA7mZoJ:www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html+loyd+Sigm on+died&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.laobserved.com/archive/001992.html) ... Loyd Sigmon, L.A. traffic icon was 95 * Get ready to hear yet again, over the next 24-48 hours, the story of how radio SigAlerts came to be part of the Los Angeles lexicon. Loyd Sigmon, who created the traffic warning while a co-owner of KMPC radio, died yesterday in an Oklahoma assisted living facility. LATimes.com has an _obit _ (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-060304sig_lat,1,3425046.story?coll=la-home-headlines) by Roy Rivenburg. A SigAlert, issued when one or more lanes will be blocked for at least half an hour, originally warned of other dangers On Labor Day 1955, the first SigAlert was broadcast by six radio stations warning of a train wreck near Union Station. Other early bulletins included five warnings of rabid dogs and a ship collision in Los Angeles Harbor. One time, a pharmacist who made a potentially fatal error in filling a prescription called police, who issued a SigAlert. The customer heard it in time... The term has become so familiar that it was added to the Oxford English Dictionary. ... ... It's in the Oxford English Dictionary? Where? ... And if it began in 1955, we shouldn't see it in 1954, should we? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 17 November 1954, Los Angeles Times, pg. 9: Finger-tip pressure on the red button of a device called a Sigalert in the City Hall last night cut out the regular program of a radio station as Civil Defense officials went on the air to demonstrate a new warning system. (...) The device was designed by Loyd Sigmon, KMPC official. ... ... 25 October 1955, Los Angeles Times, pg. 16: Traffic authorities and the Los Angeles Police Department are continuously examining new methods of making current, overcrowded freeways more efficient. "Sig-alert," a warning system whereby motorists now can be warned in advance by radio of freeway jams and congestion, has been out into operation. For this reason, motorists driving the freeways are advised to keep their car radio on at all times. ... ... 26 November 1955, Los Angeles Times, pg. A1: _Raid Siren Test_ _Late--Wrong_ _Button Pushed_ (...) Sheriff Biscailuz tested the county air-raid-siren system by pushing a button in the radio communications room of the Hall of Justice which activated sirens in West Hollywood, Lennox, Downey and Lakewood. This new attack warning system is the invention of Lloyd (sic) Sigmon and is known as the "Sig Alert." (...) A subaudio signal was also aired over Radio Stations KFI, KNX and KMPC. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 2 08:06:34 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:06:34 -0500 Subject: intermedia (Higgins 1965, Coleridge 1812?) Message-ID: "Intermedia" is only listed in the OED as a plural of "intermedium"-- nothing yet for the sense that developed out of the avant-garde Fluxus movement of the '60s. Nothing in MWCD11 either. RHUD has it, but only as an adjective: intermedia ?adj. using or involving several media, as dance, slides, electronic music, film, and painting, simultaneously; multimedia. http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/intermedia Fluxus cofounder Dick Higgins (1938-1998) discussed the term's coinage in a 1976 piece for _American Speech_: "The Origin of 'Happening'" (in Miscellany), by Dick Higgins American Speech, Vol. 51, No. 3/4 (Autumn-Winter 1976), p. 271. As _happening_ came into general usage, it ceased to be useful as a technical term for artists. Many of us have regretted the loss. I tried to avoid the error of using a word that was too adaptable, such as _happening_, by my coinage _intermedia_ (foreword to _The Four Suits_ by Philip Corner et al. [New York: Something Else Press, 1965]; "Intermedia," _Something Else Newsletter_, February 1966; with a nod to Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who used the word in a letter once but never systematically developed the concept). _Intermedia_ covers those art forms that are conceptual hybrids between two or more traditional media, such as concrete poetry (visual art and poetry), happenings (visual art, music, and theater), and sound poetry (music and literature). The term is sufficiently technical in effect that, though it has enjoyed some popular use, it is still applied only to the arts and, except for some careless confusion with "mixed media" (in which the elements remain distinct though simultaneous), is usually applied in my original sense. The original "Intermedia" piece (written in 1965, published in Feb. 1966) is reprinted in Higgins' _Horizons: the Poetics and Theory of the Intermedia_ (1984) and is also available online: http://www.ubu.com/papers/higgins_intermedia.html [from a 1981 postscript:] The vehicle I chose, the word "intermedia," appears in the writings of Samuel Taylor Coleridge in 1812 in exactly its contemporary sense -- to define works which fall conceptually between media that are already known, and I had been using the term for several years in lectures and discussions before my little essay was written. I have yet to actually see the Coleridge passage from which Higgins claims to have borrowed the term. Dick's daughter Hannah Higgins discusses "intermedia" in her book _The Fluxus Experience_ (2002) and writes in a footnote: "The Coleridge citation dates to 1812, but I have not located it in a specific work." http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0520228677/?v=search-inside&keywords=coleridge Hmm, if Higgins' own daughter can't locate the passage, could it perhaps have been a figment of his very productive imagination? Some early cites for "intermedia": 1966 _New York Times_ 20 Mar. X22/2 The Something Else Press, New York's farthest-out art book publisher, is swinging cheerfully into its second non-profit year. ... Its well-turned out books deal with what it calls "intermedia," art that falls between such established media as sculpture, painting, drama, music (Something Else, see?). ... Through Something Else, Higgins is out to spread the intermedia word. 1966 _New York Times_ 10 Jul. (Magazine) 31/1 The Open Stage is a psychedelic discotheque, sometimes called intermedia or multimedia, in which slides, movies and kinetic sounds light the trips fantastic. 1966 _New York Times_ 14 Aug. (Book Review) 2/2 "Happenings" and other "inter-media" productions are suggesting new uses for the stage and new means of theatrical production. 1967 _New York Times_ 23 Aug. 39/3 "Inter-media are drawn from the several arts," he said. "The repertories in each of the arts are no longer expressive." 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 22 Oct. (Calendar) 48/2 His own personal interest runs strongly to intermedia art, and his first show indicates, in its makeup, the direction he thinks the arts are taking-- a tendency for the arts to express their meanings in terms of other arts or in ways not previously associated with fine art. 1967 _Film Quarterly_ 21 (Autumn) 3/1 Similarly, some of the first intermedia shows were put on by Dadaists in the twenties. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 2 08:24:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:24:13 -0500 Subject: multiscreen (cinema) Message-ID: * multiscreen, a. (OED3 1967) 1961 _Film Quarterly_ 14 (Spring) 35 At the Brussels and Moscow Expositions multiscreen arrangements were displayed. 1964 _New York Times_ 10 May 10 X12/8 True, the multiscreen projection provides some fascinating cinematic tricks, but not much more than could be done with multiple images on one large screen area. 1965 _New York Times_ 13 Feb. 10/2 While "To the Fair" does not have the novel multiscreen aspect of "To Be Alive," it does have much the same joi de vivre and lively pictorial momentum that were so pleasing in the Johnson's Wax film. * multiscreen, a. = multiplex (OED3 1991) 1971 _Lima News_ (Ohio) 29 Aug. B14/1 (heading) Multi-screen theater idea cuts employees, ups profits. 1974 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 14 Oct. 39/2 It will then concentrate on the first-run multi-screen units in shopping centers. 1976 _Wall Street Journal_ 14 July 7/2 United Artists Theatre Circuit Inc., San Francisco, agreed in principle to purchase 12 multiscreen motion pictures theater locations from Carrols Development Corp., Syracuse, NY. * multiscreen, n. (OED3 1975) 1962 _News Record_ (North Hills, Penn.) 22 Aug. 21/1 Most of the film is in color, but the producers have not hesitated to use black and white film when it was the best available to make a certain point. Thus, the multi-screen often reflects five color scenes and one black-and-white one. 1964 _New York Times_ 10 May 10 X1/8 I speak of such unconventional items as ... the breath-taking combinations of mechanical conveyors and multiscreens displayed in the United States Pavilion and in the International Business Machines show. 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 13 July IV1/1 Stan VanDerbeek's exercise with multi-screens and live dancers proved as graceful as it is complicated. * multiscreen, n. = multiplex (OED3 1999) 1974 _Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly_ 14 Oct. 39/2 Of that total, only 58 will be single screen units, after allowing for conversion of 24 houses to multi-screens. 1988 _Guardian_ (London) 15 Oct. (Nexis) It is also spending Pounds 20 million over the next two years converting the bigger cinemas in its 80-strong chain into multi-screens. 1990 _Times_ (London) 27 Feb. (Nexis) Enthusiasm for the cinema helps and the company is keen to promote from within; the general manager of Britain's first inner-city multiscreen, at Bayswater in London, started with UCI as an usher. 1993 _Buffalo News_ (New York) 15 Jan. 3 (Nexis) If so, consider that for a couple months now adults and uncompromisingly serious movie-goers have seen mall-theater multiscreens tied up with "Aladdin," "Home Alone 2" and other choice holiday cookies. * multiscreening (various senses - not yet in OED) 1960 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Jan. II7/3 Jerry Wald's "Beloved Infidel," the bitter-sweet love story of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Sheilah Graham, opens Wednesday for multiscreening at 18 theaters and drive-ins including the Los Angles, Iris, Century and Englewood. 1992 _Guardian_ (London) 6 July 34 (Nexis) In its heyday there were more than 5,000 cinemas in Britain. If you discount the distortions caused by multi-screening there are now around 1,000. 2001 _Time_ 3 Sep. 81 (Proquest) But if viewers sample the smart, expertly filmed pilot, which interweaves its stories using supercool multiscreening reminiscent of movies like Timecode, 24's would-be assassins should have as little luck as Squeaky Fromme. * multiscreened (various senses - not yet in OED) 1964 _Film Quarterly_ 17 (Spring) 39/2 Experimentation in general, as in Lehky's multi-screened _The Parasite_, is more in evidence than it is in the typical Hollywood cartoon. 1974 _Washington Post_ 9 Apr. B2/4 There is a multi-screened thematic film, several films of animal competition and cooperation, and an animated film on the transference of energy. 1978 _New York Times_ 5 Feb. 15/1 The downtown movie house has declined, but there has been an increase of about 25 percent, to 15,000, in the total number of theater screens in the country because of a rapid growth of multiscreened theaters in suburban shopping centers. 1986 _Toronto Star_ 6 Sep. S17 (Nexis) I'm sure some electronics geniuses are hard at work on just such a commodity and this is the time of the year that a multi-screened set would be a much-wished-for item among you hard-core sports fans. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 09:16:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:16:23 EST Subject: "Up Close and Personal" (Roone Arledge's Wide World of Sports) (1972) Message-ID: (NEW YORK TIMES, "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN BY WILLIAM SAFIRE, 1-2-2005) This past summer, at the Republican convention in New York, the former House majority leader Richard Armey took me aside at a fat-cat function and whispered, ''Personal is the word, not private.'' Sure enough, in all Republican presentations of elements of the future ''ownership society,'' the warm, almost cuddly word personal -- as in ''up close and personal,'' a phrase used in The Times in 1915 to describe the closeness of the Rev. Selden Delaney with his parishioners, later popularized as the title of a 1996 movie starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert Redford -- is the term used to escape from private, a word that is the antithesis of public and is seen to offend most blue-state citizens. (That's a complicated sentence that wishes it were merely complex.) ... ... Every week you gotta correct this guy. This is wrong in TWO ways. Thank goodness he's an ADS member and listens to you. YOU write to Times Corrections for me. ... The 1996 stinker titled "Up Close and Personal" had popularized this? By the three people who saw it? ... I remember that Ted Koppel said "up close and personal" for years, from way-back-when. Koppel credits ABC's Roone Arledge. ... When I type "up close and personal" into my SABR Proquest subscriptiom, I don't get 1915 at all. I get 1972 and this: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Display Ad 45 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=93418511&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11046562 78&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 25, 1972. p. 67 (1 page) ... Watch the greatest athletes under the sun...up close and personal...the ABC way! ... ... ... William Safire cites this, but it isn't "up close and personal" at all: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Experiment in Personal Ministry Tried Here; Appointment of Rev. Dr. Selden P. Delaney as Pastor at the Church of St. Mary the Virgin May Solve Pressing Problems of Church Work_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101571507&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104656691& clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 14, 1915. p. SM20 (1 page) ... Rectors have so many responsibilities and must discharge so many obligations that it is practically impossible for them to keep up close personal acquaintanceships with the parishioners. ... ... ... _http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html_ (http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html) By the time Roone Arledge became president of ABC News in 1977, it's safe to say he already merited a lifetime achievement award for his accomplishments as president of ABC Sports. In fact, Sports Illustrated selected Mr. Arledge as one of the individuals who "have most significantly altered or elevated the world of sports," ranking him third behind Muhammad Ali and Michael Jordan. Under his leadership, ABC Sports programming set standards that others have tried to emulate. During his years at ABC Sports, Mr. Arledge personally produced coverage of an unprecedented 10 Olympic Games. He is cerdited with creating instant replay, slow motion and advanced (and informative) graphics. Mr Arledge's concept of "ABC's Wide World of Sports" introduced superb coverage of offbeat sporting events and solid news reporting about sports personalities. His creation of "NFL Monday Night Football" can easily be credited with changing America's TV sports-viewing habits. And the phrases "up close and personal" and "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" are now part of our vernacular. ... ... ... ... _http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html_ (http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html) Lulling Viewers Into a State of Complicity 'The approach of a storyteller seemed more apt.' By Ted Koppel Roone Arledge, the legendary broadcaster who invented ABC's "Wide World Of Sports" and "Nightline," may be unaware of his debt to Mark Twain, but it exists nevertheless. The great American humorist once observed that "we are all ignorant; just about different things." That could very well have been the inspiration for the fashion in which Roone began so many of his "Wide World" segments. Back in the days when ABC had access to none of the major sports events; when football, basketball and baseball contracts were sewed up by the other major networks, Arledge fashioned a hugely successful series out of the arcane and secondary sports that received little or no attention anywhere else. Since almost nothing was known about the champions of ski jumping or downhill racing, let alone the masters of hurling or the luge, Roone created an introductory segment that he called "up close and personal." The theory was simple: Give the public a video sketch of these unknown athletes, let us see their training methods, introduce us to their families, and we would have an investment in their success or failure. We would bring a level of interest to the events in which they competed. The concept worked brilliantly. Among the virtues of a good idea are its portability and adaptability. When we began "Nightline" in 1980, I took Mark Twain's admonition to heart and stole Roone's idea from "Wide World of Sports." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 09:56:55 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:56:55 EST Subject: "We are all ignorant, just about different things" (Rogers, not Twain) Message-ID: WE ARE ALL IGNORANT+DIFFERENT THINGS--227 Google hits, 102 Google Groups hits WE ARE ALL IGNORATN+DIFFERENT THINGS+ROGERS--51 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits WE ARE ALL IGNORANT+DIFFERENT THINGS+TWAIN--30 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits (Some of the Twain hits here cite this as a Rogers quote, but Twain is on the same page - ed.) ... ... Remember my last post? Ted Koppel's speech at Harvard? I don't know what Fred Shapiro's quotation dictionary will have, but the quotation is from Will Rogers, not Mark Twain. But hey, Mark Twain said everything, didn't he? And Charles Dana coined "the Windy City"? What proof do you need? ... And they're dead and can't sue. And the corrections are never professionally admitted--why bother? And the same errors get made over and over and over... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _WILL ROGERS SAID:; "We are all ignorant. We are just ignorant about different things" _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=449841372&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104658173&clie ntId=65882) Donald Culross Peattie. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 27, 1952. p. G2 (1 page) ... ... ... _http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html_ (http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html) Lulling Viewers Into a State of Complicity 'The approach of a storyteller seemed more apt.' By Ted Koppel Roone Arledge, the legendary broadcaster who invented ABC's "Wide World Of Sports" and "Nightline," may be unaware of his debt to Mark Twain, but it exists nevertheless. The great American humorist once observed that "we are all ignorant; just about different things." From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jan 2 13:40:57 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 08:40:57 -0500 Subject: "Cat faces" on tomatoes (1934) In-Reply-To: <20050101195722.D17278@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2005, at 19:57, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > In the three 1934-1936 citations, all from the Chicago Daily Tribune > (written by the same reporter?), "cat face" is a count nominal; the > 1879 > lumber citation from the OED has a count use and what may be a > non-count > use, "the cat face or knots", or not: the ellipsis there is the OED's, > not > Barry's. > > The rec.gardens quote is non-count. The other modern ones are all > quoting or > derived from the New York Times article, so they aren't independent > sources. > (The Gawker cite is furthermore a joke and shouldn't be counted for > anything.) They seem to refer to the appearance of the fruit as a > whole. I've also found "cat face", v., but in most cases it's a the adjectival "cat-faced" or a count noun. 1988 Melissa Balmain Weiner _Orange County Register_ (Jan. 14) ?Irvine farmers examine effects of chill on strawberries? p. 1: Brown strawberries, almost-black strawberries, lumpy, warty cat-faced strawberries: They darken the fields of A.G. Kawamura, outnumbering the ripe, red berries by two to one in some places.?Temperatures dipped to about 30 degrees Fahrenheit the last week of December, not quite low enough to kill entire plants, they said. Winds at times were strong enough to dent, or ?cat-face? http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/cat_face/ Grant Barrett From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jan 2 15:15:50 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:15:50 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: <20050101221146.81930.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I found nothing directly related to the origins of the name "seven-toed Pete." There's a serialized story published (1926 George Marsh _Indiana Weekly Messenger_ "The Valley of Voices," Jan. 21, p.2) about man traveling in northern Canada where a Frenchman describes the Windigo as having "seex-seven toe on fore feet"and there's some discussion of putting one's cards on the table, but only in the "tell me everything" sense, not in the poker sense. This is just a red herring. I also found a record of a child "born without a tongue, with six fingers and a thumb on the left hand, seven on the right hand, and seven toes on each foot, besides the great toe" in an article referring to 1761, datelined 19 Feb. at Copenhagen, and published in the _Boston Weekly News-Letter_ 10 June 1762, p. 2, but it's got nothing to do with Pete unless the child was named Per. Too early, anyway. Actual cites, for the record, but also not that helpful: 1927 _Lincoln State Journal_ "Seven Card Poker O.K." p. 14: CONDON, Ore., June 29--(UP) There is the confirmed poker player who declares that a dealer calling for "Seven-toed Pete" should be shot but times change. Now a card player in Condon will be jailed if he plays any other form of the national pastime. Too much gambling, decided the Condon city fathers and they passed a law prohibiting "all five-card games." Other games are permitted. 1931 _Los Angeles Times_ "Draw Poker Systems to Clash in Seattle"(Dec. 16) p. 7: SEATTLE, Dec. 15 (A)--One hundred and fifty hands will be played and none "of these new-fangled games like 'spit-in-the-ocean,' 'seven-toed Pete' and 'deuces wild' will be permitted." (Next one is part of a long story about two rich guys gambling with two poor guys, but there's no relevant history for seven-toed Pete.) 1937 Westbrook Pegler _Washington Post_ "Fair Enough" (Dec. 11) p. 9: In the hope of stimulating the game, the house just abandoned the regular rules and began to deal a lot of crazy games like seven-toed Pete and high-low with red sevens and the one-eyed Jacks wild. "This ain't poker," one of the rich guys said finally. "This ain't even rummy or casino or anything. Cash me in. I'm going to quit." 1949 Walter Haight _Washington Post_ "Poker a la Femme: Haight Gets Fan Letter, Proud of It" (Mar. 1) p. 17: The men in our group who finally woke up to realize that their wives had muscled permanently on their Saturday night penny ante game, were pretty sheepish about this wild-card stuff at first, and every so often would manfully deal a hand of "real poker," with many a loud remark about the virtues of same. But you've got to admit that after several rousing rounds of High-Low, Seven-Toed Pete with deuces wild, straight stud seems colorless and the pot kind of meager. (This next one's just a fun story but not in the least about seven-toed Pete, except for a mention.) 1956 Gene Sherman _L.A. Times_ "Cityside" (May 8) p. 2: All the time he is having the boys over for a friendly game in the kitchen...Well, his wife's view of this got dimmer and dimmer until one evening recently the gentleman and his buddies were dealing in the kitchen she came in and announced she was taking the kids and driving to L.A. to her folks' house....The gentleman let her and the kids go, whereupon he immediately chartered a plane, grabbed the cards and hustled his buddies into taxi for the airport. When the little woman and her brood arrived by car at her parents' home here, the gentleman and his buddies were sitting comfortably in the kitchen, coats off, beer opened, playing seven-toed Pete. "Cut the cards for luck, honey," the gentleman greeted his wife. And honestly, she couldn't help bust out laughing. Grant Barrett On Jan 1, 2005, at 17:11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card > stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this > name? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 2 16:48:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:48:58 -0500 Subject: "We are all ignorant, just about different things" (Rogers, not Twain) In-Reply-To: <200501020957.j029v8cR000852@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 Bapopik at aol.com wrote: > _WILL ROGERS SAID:; "We are all ignorant. We are just ignorant about > different things" _ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=449841372&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104658173&clie > ntId=65882) > Donald Culross Peattie. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, > Calif.: Jan 27, 1952. p. G2 (1 page) The quote is "Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects," from Will Rogers, The Illiterate Digest (1924). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 17:12:06 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:12:06 EST Subject: "Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects" (Rogers, 1924) Message-ID: I see it now. ... 31 August 1924, New York Times, pg. XX2: You know everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Jan 2 17:17:22 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:17:22 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [THEL] Do You Speak American Message-ID: My Sunday paper had the first item mentioned in two places: the TV section and Parade Magazine. Barbara >From: Dan Mosser >To: thel at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [THEL] Do You Speak American >List-Id: Teaching the History of the English Language > >Wednesday on PBS, Robert McNeil's new "Do You Speak American?" has >its premier. My students having been longing for a more current >version of American Tongues--let's hope this is close. >(http://www.pbs.org/previews/speak_american/) > >There's also a new (expensive) set of videos on "The Adventure of >English, 500 A.D. to 2000" (Films for the Humanities), so possibly >"The Story of English" can be superceded if one's library can afford >the nearly $1000 price tag. > >Happy New Year THELions. >-- > >Dan Mosser From davemarc at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 2 18:08:29 2005 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:08:29 -0500 Subject: WOTY Message-ID: Here's wishing everyone a great time at the glamorous WOTY ceremony. My suggestions, for your consideration, in order of descending preference: "Best. Episode. Ever." (and variants) "heart" (word/symbol, as in "I Heart Huckabees") "Chrismukkah" (and similar winter holiday fusions) "biotch" (and alternative spellings) "shout out" (for getting more and more mainstream) I've written a little more about this at http://blogabouttown.blogspot.com/ Kibitzing, David From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Jan 2 18:38:56 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:38:56 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [THEL] Do You Speak American In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CLOSE! Wait til you see some of the actors! dInIs >My Sunday paper had the first item mentioned in two places: the TV >section and Parade Magazine. > >Barbara > >>From: Dan Mosser >>To: thel at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Subject: [THEL] Do You Speak American >>List-Id: Teaching the History of the English Language >> >>Wednesday on PBS, Robert McNeil's new "Do You Speak American?" has >>its premier. My students having been longing for a more current >>version of American Tongues--let's hope this is close. >>(http://www.pbs.org/previews/speak_american/) >> >>There's also a new (expensive) set of videos on "The Adventure of >>English, 500 A.D. to 2000" (Films for the Humanities), so possibly >>"The Story of English" can be superceded if one's library can afford >>the nearly $1000 price tag. >> >>Happy New Year THELions. >>-- >> >>Dan Mosser -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 2 22:11:00 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:00 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: <20050101221146.81930.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud >poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this name? At N'archive I find this from 1922, also "seven-card Pete" from 1926. I don't know whether these are early or interesting. There are also poker games called "three-toed Pete" and "lamebrain Pete". Why "Pete"? I don't know. (Why "stud" for that matter?) Which came first? Was there a basic game called "[five-card] Pete"? There is a (once popular) card game named "Pedro": any relation? Why "seven"? Seven cards, I guess. Why "toed"? The seven cards make a hand, not a foot, so shouldn't it be "seven-fingered"? One possibility is the "seven-toed" designation originally referred to a cat: polydactyly is much more common in cats than in humans, and a cat with a seven-toed paw is not too rare: maybe somebody thought Pete the 7-toed cat provided good luck at the card table, or something like that. -- Doug Wilson From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sun Jan 2 22:39:37 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:39:37 EST Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. Gonzales Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina Coast From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Sun Jan 2 23:32:42 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:32:42 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words In-Reply-To: <200501021439512.SM01664@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This was a great find. I've added it to http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html Anyone know the etymology of "Gullah" ? best, Karen Ellis At 05:39 PM 1/2/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jerry E Kane >Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary >http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > >Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. Gonzales > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina Coast <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jan 3 00:53:02 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:53:02 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 2:11 PM -0800 1/1/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for >>seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore >>concerning this name? >> >>JL >> >Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving >three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, >roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed >Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. > >Larry ~~~~~~~~ A friend sent me a dried plant specimen, from Oregon, of something locally called "Three-toed Pete". It looked very much like a clover we have here called Birdfoot trefoil (/Lotus corniculatus/). A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 3 01:28:49 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:28:49 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: Perhaps an African tribal name, Golas. Another conjecture is that it derives from Angola. See OEDs and WBD Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 3 02:08:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:08:17 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: See also DA (Dictionary of Americanisms) and Juba to Jive (by Clarence Major). American Dialect Society on Sunday, January 02, 2005 at 8:28 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barnhart >Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps an African tribal name, Golas. > >Another conjecture is that it derives from Angola. > >See OEDs and WBD > >Regards, >David > >barnhart at highlands.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 3 03:49:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:49:45 -0500 Subject: Bush on Rove Message-ID: According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." -Wilson Gray From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Mon Jan 3 03:43:56 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Patrick Cassidy) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:43:56 EST Subject: Sanas of Sucker, 2005 Message-ID: Sucker Sa/ch U/r (pron. sawhk ur) A fresh well-fed fellow. A new "fat cat." Sa/ch (pron sawhk): a well-fed person. A luxurious person. Fig. A wealthy person. (Dineen, O?Donaill). Ur : Fresh, new, moist, tender, raw Nil truagh do'n sach sathach an t-ocrach riamh, the well-fed person never pities the poor person.? (Dineen, p. 936). Reracinating the American "sucker" into the Irish language reveals its hidden class aspect. A true Sach ur (sucker) should never be hungry. Only the "well-fed" and "self-satisfied" qualify. In Irish. Here are a few "suckers" from the Nobel Prize winning Irish American playwright Eugene O'Neill, the son of the actor, James O'Neill, an Irish famine emigrant, who had fled the mass death of mid-19th century Ireland for Buffalo's disease-ridden Irish-American slum (saol luim). Here's a middle class sucker.. SID: ?Yes, everyone knows you?re an old sucker.? (Ah Wilderness, p. 26 .) Sid is the brother-in-law of a small town Connecticut newspaper publisher. In the early 20th century, the educated American upper classes (airde d'airde) put pizzazz (piosa theas, pron. peesa hass, a piece of excitement) into their American-English with American-Irish "slang." Here's "sucker" in the 1912 NYC saol luim. HARRY HOPE: ?Cut out the glad hand, Hickey. D?you think I?m a sucker? I know you, bejees, you sneaking, lying drummer!? (Iceman Cometh, p. 654) + And back in middle-class Connecticut...Jamie is James O'Neill, Jr., Eugene's alcoholic self-destructive older brother. JAMIE: ?...Happy roads is bunk. Weary roads is right. Get you nowhere fast. That?s where I?ve got ? nowhere. Where everyone lands in the end, even if most suckers won?t admit it. ? (Long Day?s Journey into Night, p. 161) + And then back to NYC and the 1920s, a decade, like this one, that turns the words sach ur (sucker) upside down, in a world of fat cat, self-satisfied upper-class grifters (grafado/ir) and hungry working-class generic American suckers. ERIE: ?But hell, I always keep my noggin working, booze or no booze, I?m no sucker. What was I sayin?? Oh, some drunk. I sure hit the high spots. You shoulda seen the doll I made night before last. And did she take me to the cleaners. I?m a sucker for blondes.? (Hughie, p. 267) It is the ?r in s?ch ?r that keeps the ?well-fed fellow? new and fresh and ripe to be fleeced like a Donegal sheep. ?There is a sucker born every minute,? Mike Mc Donald (High King of the Chicago Gamblers), 1880-1903. Suckers and Dead Rabbits A ?rabbit sucker? or ?r?ib?ad sa/ch u/r,? means ?a big, fresh well-fed fellow? and appears in amateur lexicologist, and warden of The Tombs Prison, George Matsell?s 1859 slang dictionary, Vocabulum: The Rogue's Lexicon. Raibead means a ?big hulking person? in Irish and sounds like ?Rabbit? to English speaking ears. It is the source of the phoney gang moniker ?Dead Rabbit.? Of course, there was no gang in NYC called The Dead Rabbits. In the 1850s a ? dead raibead? was just NY-Irish for a ?real big lug.? Sach ur spelled ?sucker? is the last word -- as two disguised Irish words -- in Eugene O'Neill's final play Hughie, set appropriately in 1928. A year of the Sucker -- like this one may prove to be. Erie: He clicks the dice in his hand -- thoughtfully. ?Y?know it?s time I stopped carryin? the torch for Hughie... He?s gone. Like we all gotta go... It?s all in the racket, huh?? His soul is purged of grief, his confidence restored. ?I shoot two bits.? Night Clerk: Manfully, with an excited dead-pan expression he hopes resembles Arnold Rothstein?s ?I fade you.? Erie Throws the dice. ?Four?s my point.? Gathers them up swiftly and throws again. ?Four it is.? He takes the money. ?Easy when you got my luck ?and know how. Huh, Charlie?? He chuckles, giving the Night Clerk the slyly amused, contemptuous, affectionate wink with which a Wise Guy regales a Sucker ( S?ch ?r, a new "fat cat"). (Hughie, p. 294) Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of California San Francisco 1.2. 05 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 03:55:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:55:04 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: Found about 50 exx. on the Net for "Three-Toed Pete." It's new to me. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Seven-Toed Pete" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 2:11 PM -0800 1/1/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for >seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore >concerning this name? > >JL > Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 04:00:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:00:40 -0800 Subject: "Up Close and Personal" (Roone Arledge's Wide World of Sports) (1972) Message-ID: I began hearing "up close and personal" everywhere in 1984. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Up Close and Personal" (Roone Arledge's Wide World of Sports) (1972) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (NEW YORK TIMES, "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN BY WILLIAM SAFIRE, 1-2-2005) This past summer, at the Republican convention in New York, the former House majority leader Richard Armey took me aside at a fat-cat function and whispered, ''Personal is the word, not private.'' Sure enough, in all Republican presentations of elements of the future ''ownership society,'' the warm, almost cuddly word personal -- as in ''up close and personal,'' a phrase used in The Times in 1915 to describe the closeness of the Rev. Selden Delaney with his parishioners, later popularized as the title of a 1996 movie starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert Redford -- is the term used to escape from private, a word that is the antithesis of public and is seen to offend most blue-state citizens. (That's a complicated sentence that wishes it were merely complex.) ... ... Every week you gotta correct this guy. This is wrong in TWO ways. Thank goodness he's an ADS member and listens to you. YOU write to Times Corrections for me. ... The 1996 stinker titled "Up Close and Personal" had popularized this? By the three people who saw it? ... I remember that Ted Koppel said "up close and personal" for years, from way-back-when. Koppel credits ABC's Roone Arledge. ... When I type "up close and personal" into my SABR Proquest subscriptiom, I don't get 1915 at all. I get 1972 and this: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Display Ad 45 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=93418511&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11046562 78&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 25, 1972. p. 67 (1 page) ... Watch the greatest athletes under the sun...up close and personal...the ABC way! ... ... ... William Safire cites this, but it isn't "up close and personal" at all: ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Experiment in Personal Ministry Tried Here; Appointment of Rev. Dr. Selden P. Delaney as Pastor at the Church of St. Mary the Virgin May Solve Pressing Problems of Church Work_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101571507&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104656691& clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 14, 1915. p. SM20 (1 page) ... Rectors have so many responsibilities and must discharge so many obligations that it is practically impossible for them to keep up close personal acquaintanceships with the parishioners. ... ... ... _http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html_ (http://www.emmyonline.org/emmy/docu4.html) By the time Roone Arledge became president of ABC News in 1977, it's safe to say he already merited a lifetime achievement award for his accomplishments as president of ABC Sports. In fact, Sports Illustrated selected Mr. Arledge as one of the individuals who "have most significantly altered or elevated the world of sports," ranking him third behind Muhammad Ali and Michael Jordan. Under his leadership, ABC Sports programming set standards that others have tried to emulate. During his years at ABC Sports, Mr. Arledge personally produced coverage of an unprecedented 10 Olympic Games. He is cerdited with creating instant replay, slow motion and advanced (and informative) graphics. Mr Arledge's concept of "ABC's Wide World of Sports" introduced superb coverage of offbeat sporting events and solid news reporting about sports personalities. His creation of "NFL Monday Night Football" can easily be credited with changing America's TV sports-viewing habits. And the phrases "up close and personal" and "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" are now part of our vernacular. ... ... ... ... _http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html_ (http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/00-3NRfall/Lulling-Viewers.html) Lulling Viewers Into a State of Complicity 'The approach of a storyteller seemed more apt.' By Ted Koppel Roone Arledge, the legendary broadcaster who invented ABC's "Wide World Of Sports" and "Nightline," may be unaware of his debt to Mark Twain, but it exists nevertheless. The great American humorist once observed that "we are all ignorant; just about different things." That could very well have been the inspiration for the fashion in which Roone began so many of his "Wide World" segments. Back in the days when ABC had access to none of the major sports events; when football, basketball and baseball contracts were sewed up by the other major networks, Arledge fashioned a hugely successful series out of the arcane and secondary sports that received little or no attention anywhere else. Since almost nothing was known about the champions of ski jumping or downhill racing, let alone the masters of hurling or the luge, Roone created an introductory segment that he called "up close and personal." The theory was simple: Give the public a video sketch of these unknown athletes, let us see their training methods, introduce us to their families, and we would have an investment in their success or failure. We would bring a level of interest to the events in which they competed. The concept worked brilliantly. Among the virtues of a good idea are its portability and adaptability. When we began "Nightline" in 1980, I took Mark Twain's admonition to heart and stole Roone's idea from "Wide World of Sports." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 04:15:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:15:30 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: Thanks, Grant. 1927 is the date to beat, but the context suggests the term was not new then. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: "Seven-Toed Pete" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found nothing directly related to the origins of the name "seven-toed Pete." There's a serialized story published (1926 George Marsh _Indiana Weekly Messenger_ "The Valley of Voices," Jan. 21, p.2) about man traveling in northern Canada where a Frenchman describes the Windigo as having "seex-seven toe on fore feet"and there's some discussion of putting one's cards on the table, but only in the "tell me everything" sense, not in the poker sense. This is just a red herring. I also found a record of a child "born without a tongue, with six fingers and a thumb on the left hand, seven on the right hand, and seven toes on each foot, besides the great toe" in an article referring to 1761, datelined 19 Feb. at Copenhagen, and published in the _Boston Weekly News-Letter_ 10 June 1762, p. 2, but it's got nothing to do with Pete unless the child was named Per. Too early, anyway. Actual cites, for the record, but also not that helpful: 1927 _Lincoln State Journal_ "Seven Card Poker O.K." p. 14: CONDON, Ore., June 29--(UP) There is the confirmed poker player who declares that a dealer calling for "Seven-toed Pete" should be shot but times change. Now a card player in Condon will be jailed if he plays any other form of the national pastime. Too much gambling, decided the Condon city fathers and they passed a law prohibiting "all five-card games." Other games are permitted. 1931 _Los Angeles Times_ "Draw Poker Systems to Clash in Seattle"(Dec. 16) p. 7: SEATTLE, Dec. 15 (A)--One hundred and fifty hands will be played and none "of these new-fangled games like 'spit-in-the-ocean,' 'seven-toed Pete' and 'deuces wild' will be permitted." (Next one is part of a long story about two rich guys gambling with two poor guys, but there's no relevant history for seven-toed Pete.) 1937 Westbrook Pegler _Washington Post_ "Fair Enough" (Dec. 11) p. 9: In the hope of stimulating the game, the house just abandoned the regular rules and began to deal a lot of crazy games like seven-toed Pete and high-low with red sevens and the one-eyed Jacks wild. "This ain't poker," one of the rich guys said finally. "This ain't even rummy or casino or anything. Cash me in. I'm going to quit." 1949 Walter Haight _Washington Post_ "Poker a la Femme: Haight Gets Fan Letter, Proud of It" (Mar. 1) p. 17: The men in our group who finally woke up to realize that their wives had muscled permanently on their Saturday night penny ante game, were pretty sheepish about this wild-card stuff at first, and every so often would manfully deal a hand of "real poker," with many a loud remark about the virtues of same. But you've got to admit that after several rousing rounds of High-Low, Seven-Toed Pete with deuces wild, straight stud seems colorless and the pot kind of meager. (This next one's just a fun story but not in the least about seven-toed Pete, except for a mention.) 1956 Gene Sherman _L.A. Times_ "Cityside" (May 8) p. 2: All the time he is having the boys over for a friendly game in the kitchen...Well, his wife's view of this got dimmer and dimmer until one evening recently the gentleman and his buddies were dealing in the kitchen she came in and announced she was taking the kids and driving to L.A. to her folks' house....The gentleman let her and the kids go, whereupon he immediately chartered a plane, grabbed the cards and hustled his buddies into taxi for the airport. When the little woman and her brood arrived by car at her parents' home here, the gentleman and his buddies were sitting comfortably in the kitchen, coats off, beer opened, playing seven-toed Pete. "Cut the cards for luck, honey," the gentleman greeted his wife. And honestly, she couldn't help bust out laughing. Grant Barrett On Jan 1, 2005, at 17:11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card > stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this > name? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 04:25:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:25:56 -0800 Subject: Bush on Rove Message-ID: Heard in 1970s - not in reference to Karl Rove. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Bush on Rove ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 3 04:46:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:46:01 EST Subject: Pinking Shears (1933) Message-ID: "Why is it called pinking shears?" --Jerry Orbach on TNT's "Law and Order" marathon .. Damn you, TNT's "Law and Order" marathon! You know I'm a sucker for watching a dead New York actor! ... So, what does the OED revision have for "pinking shears" anyway? And where does it say it's illegal to kill a rent-controlled tenant who pays $300 a month for three bedrooms?? ... ... (OED) 1962 House & Garden Dec. 55/2 Pair of pinking shears. 1976 Evening Post (Nottingham) 15 Dec. 21 (Advt.), Dress-making scissors, pinking shears, nail scissors, [etc.]. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 19 January 1935, Washington Post, pg. 13: _Scissors That Pimk._ ... Women who are interested in sewing should give the new pinking shears a rousing welcome. These are heavy but handy scissors arranged so that you can pink as you cut. With their aid you can cut out and pink a dress pattern all at one time. Use of them automatically eliminates the necessity of under-sewing or French seaming. ... Pinking, as any seamstress knows, prevents raveling and gives a smart finish to inside seams. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Sheboygan Press _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2gxeFQugZdnekWLUKwmG8MwnyVnYmGViGw==) Tuesday, December 26, 1933 _Sheboygan,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+pinking+shears+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pinking+shears+AND) ...Co. Oflhkosh Paper Co...... Parker Co. PINKING SHEARS Corp Prultt. Inc. Quality.. ... _Oshkosh Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2rR1ykv+J0qyi5UUyzqDUfXJjiabctHEag==) Friday, December 20, 1935 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+pinking+shears+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pinking+shears+AND) ...Sewing boxes, sewing kits, scissors, PINKING SHEARS, hat stands, clothes.. ... _Helena Independent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2qvFEQQZiQj9ubIHuOCUatpqsC6fUmwfvw==) Wednesday, April 10, 1935 _Helena,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:helena+pinking+shears+AND) _Montana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:montana+pinking+shears+AND) ...Styled at Moderate Ask to See the New PINKING SHEARS Thin IK an every nhop or.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2pYK0SQgsmZ4gqxjBfmRAvsJerZEPB3jikIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, February 27, 1935 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+pinking+shears+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+pinking+shears+AND) ...and Scissors 95c and up Wiss PINKING SHEARS Kleinert's Dress Shields 2Sc to.....Thread, (300 yard) lOc; 3 for 2Sc Wiss SHEARS.. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 3 05:00:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:00:24 -0500 Subject: Bush on Rove In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't mean that it's new, but that it's "typical": not the kind of language that one expects to see in a family-oriented roto-gravure, especially not from the mouth of *the* Republican family man, and published in a section edited by a man who has been nothing if not completely outspoken in expressing the disgust that he feels toward Clinton. BE "typical" is somewhat difficult to translate. It means something like "living up to the worst possible stereotypes," in this case, pseudo-Christian hypocrisy at its worst. If Clinton had said "turd," it wouldn't have been published by this guy as though it was nothing. Rather, it would have been censored and described as a gross obscenity unworthy of publication in a family-oriented periodical. -Wilson Gray On Jan 2, 2005, at 11:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Bush on Rove > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Heard in 1970s - not in reference to Karl Rove. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Bush on Rove > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December > 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, > including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 3 06:26:16 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:26:16 EST Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits ... My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And I'm wondering, how many people have to die?? ... On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. "Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of Commerce?" ... It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." ... I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from Patton? (GOOGLE) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ (http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good."). ... musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 .htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" +and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& &d#1d8f4793556b3283) ... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the ... _soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." ... _http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php _ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) ... On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur Avenue bakeries. ... Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di casa." The original house bread?? From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 08:06:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 03:06:27 -0500 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:11:00 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>"Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud >>poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites or lore concerning this name? > >At N'archive I find this from 1922, also "seven-card Pete" from 1926. I >don't know whether these are early or interesting. > >There are also poker games called "three-toed Pete" and "lamebrain Pete". >Why "Pete"? I don't know. (Why "stud" for that matter?) Which came first? >Was there a basic game called "[five-card] Pete"? There is a (once popular) >card game named "Pedro": any relation? > >Why "seven"? Seven cards, I guess. Why "toed"? The seven cards make a hand, >not a foot, so shouldn't it be "seven-fingered"? > >One possibility is the "seven-toed" designation originally referred to a >cat: polydactyly is much more common in cats than in humans, and a cat with >a seven-toed paw is not too rare: maybe somebody thought Pete the 7-toed >cat provided good luck at the card table, or something like that. No need to invoke polydactylic felines, I don't think. There's at least one citation suggesting that a character named "Seven-Toed Pete" was known from Western dime novels: Los Angeles Times, Apr 21, 1895, p. 14 [Referring to a man found not guilty of holding up an Oregon bank by reason of insanity:] "He is a man of 49 years of age, with the impulses and judgment of a boy of 13 to 15 years, who, with his head stuffed full of the garish fiction of dime novels, emulates the conduct of heroic Seven-toed Pete, and sallies forth armed with a sharpened caseknife to lift the scalps of imaginary redskins in the persons of inoffensive small children." I don't see any other references to a "Seven-Toed Pete", but there are several late-19th-century cites referring to men nicknamed "Six-Toed Pete", usually in Western frontier towns. (Some websites mention a "Six-Toed Pete" in stories about Wild Bill Hickock.) The most interesting character is a man whose real name was Pedro Badillo (or Badillos). He is described in a Reno Evening Gazette article of May 30, 1876 as someone who had stood for office in Los Angeles but then had to flee the country after being discovered as a horse thief. He turns up in a Los Angeles Times article of Feb. 25, 1894 as a "smuggler and land pirate" in Mexico who had used the customhouse at Tiajuana as a fort and "defied the gendarmes of the learned but vacillating Governor, Don Manuel Clemente Rojo." Another LA Times article, on Aug. 16, 1896, says he had "engaged in an unsuccessful revolt against the Mexican government, after proclaiming himself Governor of Sonora." By that time Six-Toed Pete had settled in the border town of Nogales (Arizona/Sonora): "Although Pete's hair is now as white as snow, he yet turns the cards with nimble fingers, and will bet 500 'dobles' (Mexican dollars) on a rooster fight, as he did in early times." --Ben Zimmer From dfaline at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 11:57:23 2005 From: dfaline at YAHOO.COM (DTF) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 03:57:23 -0800 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: --- Automatic digest processor wrote: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 13:05:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 05:05:53 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits ... My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And I'm wondering, how many people have to die?? ... On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. "Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of Commerce?" ... It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." ... I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from Patton? (GOOGLE) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ (http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good."). ... musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 .htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _From Vietnam to Iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" +and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& &d#1d8f4793556b3283) ... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the ... _soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." ... _http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php _ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) ... On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur Avenue bakeries. ... Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di casa." The original house bread?? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 15:01:42 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:01:42 -0600 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: Ben's 7T Pete may be this person: http://www.gilleysgallery.com/PAGES/FINE%20ART/20CENTURY_MEXART/sloan_7toedP ete.html in a print of a piece of art by John Sloan. > No need to invoke polydactylic felines, I don't think. > There's at least one citation suggesting that a character > named "Seven-Toed Pete" was known from Western dime novels: > > Los Angeles Times, Apr 21, 1895, p. 14 > [Referring to a man found not guilty of holding up an Oregon bank > by reason of insanity:] "He is a man of 49 years of age, with the > impulses and judgment of a boy of 13 to 15 years, who, with his > head stuffed full of the garish fiction of dime novels, emulates > the conduct of heroic Seven-toed Pete, and sallies forth armed > with a sharpened caseknife to lift the scalps of imaginary > redskins in the persons of inoffensive small children." > > I don't see any other references to a "Seven-Toed Pete", but > there are several late-19th-century cites referring to men > nicknamed "Six-Toed Pete", usually in Western frontier towns. > (Some websites mention a "Six-Toed Pete" in stories about > Wild Bill Hickock.) The most interesting character is a man > whose real name was Pedro Badillo (or Badillos). He is > described in a Reno Evening Gazette article of May 30, 1876 > as someone who had stood for office in Los Angeles but then > had to flee the country after being discovered as a horse > thief. He turns up in a Los Angeles Times article of Feb. > 25, 1894 as a "smuggler and land pirate" in Mexico who had > used the customhouse at Tiajuana as a fort and "defied the > gendarmes of the learned but vacillating Governor, Don Manuel > Clemente Rojo." Another LA Times article, on Aug. 16, 1896, > says he had "engaged in an unsuccessful revolt against the > Mexican government, after proclaiming himself Governor of > Sonora." By that time Six-Toed Pete had settled in the > border town of Nogales (Arizona/Sonora): "Although Pete's > hair is now as white as snow, he yet turns the cards with > nimble fingers, and will bet 500 'dobles' (Mexican dollars) > on a rooster fight, as he did in early times." > > > --Ben Zimmer > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 3 15:10:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:10:58 -0500 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: <20050103130553.69440.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:05 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" > >JL Is that "Monkey" with or without a k? LH > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google >Groups hits >... >My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on >another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & >Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And >I'm wondering, >how many people have to die?? >... >On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. >"Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of >Commerce?" >... >It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on >the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." >... >I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from >Patton? > > >(GOOGLE) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ >(http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military >camp run >by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is >good."). ... >musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ >(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 >.htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - >_Similar pages_ >(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... >... >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" >+and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines >s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& >&d#1d8f4793556b3283) >... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run >by General >George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the >... >_soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - >Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors >... >... >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------------------- >COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: >WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? > >It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the >recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." >... >_http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php >_ >(http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) >... >On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and >Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised >OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur >Avenue bakeries. >... >Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di >casa." The original house bread?? > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 15:27:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:27:34 -0800 Subject: "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: The painter and lithographer John Sloan (1871-1951) was a prominent member of the New York "Ashcan School." His portrait of "Pete" may have been done before 1914, but its relationship to a dime-novel Pete remains problematical. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "Seven-Toed Pete" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben's 7T Pete may be this person: http://www.gilleysgallery.com/PAGES/FINE%20ART/20CENTURY_MEXART/sloan_7toedP ete.html in a print of a piece of art by John Sloan. > No need to invoke polydactylic felines, I don't think. > There's at least one citation suggesting that a character > named "Seven-Toed Pete" was known from Western dime novels: > > Los Angeles Times, Apr 21, 1895, p. 14 > [Referring to a man found not guilty of holding up an Oregon bank > by reason of insanity:] "He is a man of 49 years of age, with the > impulses and judgment of a boy of 13 to 15 years, who, with his > head stuffed full of the garish fiction of dime novels, emulates > the conduct of heroic Seven-toed Pete, and sallies forth armed > with a sharpened caseknife to lift the scalps of imaginary > redskins in the persons of inoffensive small children." > > I don't see any other references to a "Seven-Toed Pete", but > there are several late-19th-century cites referring to men > nicknamed "Six-Toed Pete", usually in Western frontier towns. > (Some websites mention a "Six-Toed Pete" in stories about > Wild Bill Hickock.) The most interesting character is a man > whose real name was Pedro Badillo (or Badillos). He is > described in a Reno Evening Gazette article of May 30, 1876 > as someone who had stood for office in Los Angeles but then > had to flee the country after being discovered as a horse > thief. He turns up in a Los Angeles Times article of Feb. > 25, 1894 as a "smuggler and land pirate" in Mexico who had > used the customhouse at Tiajuana as a fort and "defied the > gendarmes of the learned but vacillating Governor, Don Manuel > Clemente Rojo." Another LA Times article, on Aug. 16, 1896, > says he had "engaged in an unsuccessful revolt against the > Mexican government, after proclaiming himself Governor of > Sonora." By that time Six-Toed Pete had settled in the > border town of Nogales (Arizona/Sonora): "Although Pete's > hair is now as white as snow, he yet turns the cards with > nimble fingers, and will bet 500 'dobles' (Mexican dollars) > on a rooster fight, as he did in early times." > > > --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 15:29:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:29:01 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: With a "K." Otherwise it wouldn't have been worth reporting to this august body. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:05 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" > >JL Is that "Monkey" with or without a k? LH > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google >Groups hits >... >My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on >another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & >Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And >I'm wondering, >how many people have to die?? >... >On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. >"Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of >Commerce?" >... >It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on >the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." >... >I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from >Patton? > > >(GOOGLE) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ >(http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military >camp run >by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is >good."). ... >musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ >(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 >.htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - >_Similar pages_ >(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >... >... >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >... >_From Vietnam to Iraq_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" >+and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines >s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& >&d#1d8f4793556b3283) >... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run >by General >George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the >... >_soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - >Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors >... >... >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------------------- >COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: >WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? > >It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the >recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." >... >_http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php >_ >(http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) >... >On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and >Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at the praised >OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur >Avenue bakeries. >... >Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di >casa." The original house bread?? > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 3 15:34:17 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:34:17 -0500 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: <20050103152902.57776.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:29 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >With a "K." Otherwise it wouldn't have been worth reporting to this >august body. > >JL What I thought; just checking for the record. L >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 5:05 AM -0800 1/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>Bumper sticker (2004): "Monkey is my business and business is good!" >> >>JL > >Is that "Monkey" with or without a k? > >LH > >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>KILLING IS OUR BUSINESS + BUSINESS IS GOOD--202 Google hits, 18 Google >>Groups hits >>... >>My sister came back from vacation, so I called her. She said she was on >>another line and would call me back. I thought I just wait and watch "Law & >>Order." And another "Law & Order." And another "Law & Order." And >>I'm wondering, >>how many people have to die?? >>... >>On one "Law & Order," a suspect had a "business is good" tat on one arm. >>"Business is good?" remarked Jerry Orbach. "Was he working for the Chamber of >>Commerce?" >>... >>It was later found that this personal was in this military. What "tat" is on >>the other arm of military men? "Killing is our business." >>... >>I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a quote from >>Patton? >> >> >>(GOOGLE) >>... >>_From Vietnam to Iraq, by Edward S. Herman_ >>(http://musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >>... (Second best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military >>camp run >>by General George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is >>good."). ... >>musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm - 23k - _Cached_ >>(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGFHVV9OyBMJ:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35 >>.htm+"killing+is+our+business"+and+"business+is+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - >>_Similar pages_ >>(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:musictravel.free.fr/political/political35.htm) >>... >>... >>(GOOGLE GROUPS) >>... >>_From Vietnam to Iraq_ >>(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_frm/thread/d91434e07f4f4120/1d8f4793556b3283?q="killing+is+our+business" >>+and+"business+is+good"&_done=/groups?q="killing+is+our+business"+and+"busines >>s+is+good"&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search& >>&d#1d8f4793556b3283) >>... best is the words of the banner hung over the Vietnam military camp run >>by General >>George Patton Jr.: "Killing is our business, and business is good.") In the >>... >>_soc.culture.iraq_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq) - >>Apr 30 2003, 8:34 pm by Dan Clore - 2 messages - 2 authors >>... >>... >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: >>WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? >> >>It was another perfect day for walking. I've essentially walked all of the >>recent Time Out New York's "Cheap Streets for Cheap Eats." >>... >>_http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php >>_ >>(http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/10/25/chock_full_of_tasty_goodness.php) >>... >>On Sunday, I did Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, 116th Street in Manhattan, and >>Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint (above the BQE this time). I ate at >>the praised >>OTT (Authentic Thai Cuisine), 970 Manhattan Avenue, and too many Arthur >>Avenue bakeries. >>... >>Addeo's Bakery, 3352 Arthur Avenue, proudly declares "The original pane di > >casa." The original house bread?? >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 16:15:12 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:15:12 -0600 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:26 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" > > ... > I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a > quote from Patton? > > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 17:32:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:32:15 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" Message-ID: Actually, it was Maj. Gen. George S. Patton III - his celebrated father was "Jr." JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:26 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" > > ... > I've heard this before, but I can't find many hits. Is it a > quote from Patton? > > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 3 17:42:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:42:53 -0800 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: The Net seemsto offer no legitimate exx. of "Blomee" as a surname. I did discover half a dozen or more instances of "Joe Blow-me" as a synonym for "Joe Blow." It may be that some users of "Joe Blow-me" do not feel that the term is objectionable. HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 3 17:45:04 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:45:04 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: There are no examples of Blomee as a surname on Westlaw and the Census Bureau doesn't recognize it as a surname, so it seems clear that it is not a frequent surname in the U.S., at least. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 7:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 19:50:59 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:50:59 -0600 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: Another variant is "Heywood Jablome". A radio shock jock pretending to use this name was quoted in a Charleston Post and Courier article a couple years back: http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=45&aid=30737 http://www.tolstoy.com/lonewacko/blog/archives/000470.html -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Lighter To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: 1/3/2005 11:42 AM Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? The Net seemsto offer no legitimate exx. of "Blomee" as a surname. I did discover half a dozen or more instances of "Joe Blow-me" as a synonym for "Joe Blow." It may be that some users of "Joe Blow-me" do not feel that the term is objectionable. HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 19:53:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:53:04 -0600 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: The Social Security Death Index has no "Blomee" listed, either. -----Original Message----- From: Baker, John To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: 1/3/2005 11:45 AM Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? There are no examples of Blomee as a surname on Westlaw and the Census Bureau doesn't recognize it as a surname, so it seems clear that it is not a frequent surname in the U.S., at least. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 3 20:13:39 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:13:39 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: In this early use from 1932, "Joe Blow" was used as a pseudonym by a bootlegger during Prohibition: <> Cody v. United States, 73 F.2d 180, 183 (9th Cir. 1934). Luppino was arrested on January 16, 1932, so the invoice would have been signed shortly before that time. Note that, while this shows that "Joe Blow" was in use by 1932, it also shows that the fake name was sufficiently unusual that members of the underworld were willing to use it to cover their tracks (though, in hindsight, Luppino might have been better advised to call himself John Smith). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? The Net seemsto offer no legitimate exx. of "Blomee" as a surname. I did discover half a dozen or more instances of "Joe Blow-me" as a synonym for "Joe Blow." It may be that some users of "Joe Blow-me" do not feel that the term is objectionable. HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded from Gerald Cohen: ---------- [for ads-l] Here's at least a partial answer to Doug Wilson's query about people named Blomee: We must be aware of the names containing a double entendre. The supposed "Haywood U. Blomee" is really "Hey, would you blow me" and "Hugo N. Blomee" is "You go and blow me." Now, with red flags popping up for "Blomee" in these two cases, maybe "Christina Blomee" contains a similar hidden salacious message. My immediate suspicion: "Christina, blow me in Khao Lak." Of course the journalist didn't introduce this salacious message; s/he merely found it somewhere, and accepted it at face value. If "Blomee" is a frequent surname, I'll reconsider my last suggestion. Gerald Cohen ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 09:14:38 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 04:14:38 -0500 Subject: Muppet (1955) Message-ID: Muppet (OED3 1970) 1955 _Washington Post_ 15 May J3/4 Mac is also high in his praise of Jim Henson, the manipulator of the "Muppets." A young University of Maryland student, Henson works out the puppet acts "just by sitting down and thinking for a few moments." [Referring to WRC-TV's show "Afternoon" -- see: ] 1956 _Washington Post_ 10 Jun. J1/4 On "Footlight Theater," Arnold uses his talent for character creation to work with Jim Henson's "Muppets." (A "Muppet" is a kind of puppet.) 1956 _Washington Post_ 2 Sep. G3/2 A "muppet," according to Henson, is a cross between a hand puppet and a stick puppet. Henson thought up the term "muppet" in order "to have something distinctive." --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 20:50:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:50:03 -0500 Subject: murderers' row (1860) Message-ID: murderers' row * row of pictures in a rogues' gallery (sense not yet in OED): 1860 _New York Times_ 5 Sep. 8/2 In a line with "murderers' row," which contains the portraits of Stephens, Straub, Mrs. Hartung, and others, is the likeness of quite a good looking youth, No. 468, known as the "Goat Boy." * row of prison cells (OED3 1873): 1866 _New York Times_ 18 Jun. 8/3 It appears that he had these luxuries furnished to him when he was in a cell on the first tier, but since he was brought down to "Murderers'-row" he has been denied these articles. These are still later than the purported 1858 citation referring to a baseball team, about which see: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210D&L=ads-l&P=R3211 --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 3 20:41:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:41:09 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:13:39 -0500, Baker, John wrote: > In this early use from 1932, "Joe Blow" was used as a pseudonym by >a bootlegger during Prohibition: > ><Luppino, the officers took from his person a receipted invoice covering a >purchase by one 'Joe Blow' of 480 square five-gallon cans with 1 3/4 inch >screw caps from the American Can Company of Portland, Or. When the >officers raided the still in Yakima, Wash., they found two or three >hundred square five-gallon cans with 1 3/4 inch screw caps similar to the >ones that were delivered under the above-mentioned invoice.>> > >Cody v. United States, 73 F.2d 180, 183 (9th Cir. 1934). Luppino was >arrested on January 16, 1932, so the invoice would have been signed >shortly before that time. > > Note that, while this shows that "Joe Blow" was in use by 1932, it >also shows that the fake name was sufficiently unusual that members of the >underworld were willing to use it to cover their tracks (though, in >hindsight, Luppino might have been better advised to call himself John >Smith). By 1930, "Joe Blow" was being used by sports writers to refer to hypothetical so-and-so's: --------- Chicago Daily Tribune, Aug 26, 1930, p. 17 Characters -- Joe Blow, ardent National league fan, and Gus J. Fan, American league devotee. --------- Syracuse Herald, Nov 7, 1930, p. 33 For instance, 20 years ago on certain campuses a young freshman might be pointed out as the son of old Joe Blow. You remember Joe Blow, the fellow who dropped the punt in the annual clash with old Hooey and lost the game. --------- There are also earlier references to fictional and real-life Joe Blows -- in this 1919 story, it's the nickname for a blowhard: --------- (Lincoln, Nebraska) Evening State Journal, Feb 20, 1919 The Blowhard. "He's told me a new tale about himself and his family every time that he's seen a moving picture. When he came here first I believed him -- until one day he told me that his brother, who was on board a battleship, took the ship out to sea for a ten mile spin after the crew had gone ashore. On his return the crew hailed him with wild cheers at his nerve. That's why we named him Joe Blow." -- Chicago Daily News. --------- There are several cites for "Joe Blow" between 1908 and 1918 as the name of a fictitious bookie in William F. Kirk's serialized stories of "The Manicure Lady", e.g.: --------- Washington Post, May 10, 1908, p. CO3 [also in: Lima (Ohio) Daily News, April 30, 1908, p. 3] The Manicure Lady; She Has Her Own Ideas on Woman's Courage By William F. Kirk. "Joe Blow, the bookmaker, got his nails did yesterday," said the Manicure Lady. --------- Washington Post, Nov 1, 1908, p. CO3 The Manicure Lady; She Knows a Would-Be Sport As Far As She Can See One By William F. Kirk. "When I see a nice young gent, like that one who just left here, trying to tell me what a sport he is, and then when I look into the next chair and see Joe Blow, the bookmaker, never saying a word about his wild and woolly past, I can't help thinking that still waters run deep." --------- Earlier still, there was a real-life Joe Blow who died in Los Angeles in 1897 and was the subject of a protracted legal dispute over the money he had hoarded in his back yard. The courts determined that his name was really Joseph Blow and awarded the money to a Blow family in England: --------- Los Angeles Times, Aug 19, 1899, p. 10 OLD JOE BLOW'S MONEY Claimants for the hoarded wealth of old Joseph Blow, how has been dead since December 17, 1897, are becoming numerous. Among them is Mrs. J. Kinsella of Syracuse, N.Y., who alleges that she was a sister of the dead miser... Former Public Administrator Kelsey inclines to the opinion that Mrs. Kinsella is mistaken in her contention that Joseph Blow was her brother. She says his true name was Joseph Coglan, and that Joe Blow was a name he adopted when a boy because he liked the sound of it. --------- Los Angeles Times, Feb 27, 1900, p. I10 WHO WAS JOE BLOW?; CLAIMANTS TO HIS WEALTH A TRIFLE MIXED UP; Some Say He Was English, Some German and Some Irish, but the Probate Court Has the Question to Answer--Proof Thus Far Seems to Favor the English. --------- Los Angeles Times. Feb 28, 1900, p. I10 Judge Shaw Finds That Joe Blow Was an Englishman and Gives His Estate to the English Claimants. --------- Los Angeles Times, Oct 7, 1900, p. III4 BLOW ESTATE BLOWN. The estate of old Joe Blow the mysterious old miser who died in this city about three years ago, leaving buried treasure in a tomato can out in his back yeart, has at last been distributed ... A brother and a sister and the five children of a deceased brother, Charles, all residents of England, inherit his wealth. A final distribution was ordered in the estate of Charles Blow yesterday, which consisted solely of the inheritance from Brother Joe. --------- It's conceivable that the case of "Old Joe Blow" could have helped popularize the name, leading to its eventual use as a hypothetical nickname (later to be joined by Joe Schmo, Joe Bloggs, Joe Dokes, Joe Soap, et al.) --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 22:08:41 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:08:41 -0600 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: > HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless > Ben or Bill can push it back further). A challenge! "Writing for Money," Hardon, R. V., _The Nation_, 8/19/1925, p. 208/1 "Why, in one town in Iowa alone, there are 11 potential Mary Roberts Rineharts, 7 James Branch Cabells, 4 almost-Ruby M. Ayerses, and 2 perfectly good Zane Greys, with 118 scattering from Joe Hergesheimers to Joe Blows. Don t lift the eyebrows over Joe Blow. You never heard of him before, but he is the most widely printed fiction author in all America." [Note also the suspicious last name of the author, "Hardon". This was his only article in _The Nation_, and in it he admits to having 21 pseudonyms. Later in the article, he refers to "Broadway Johns" as stock characters in pulp fiction.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 3 23:29:16 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:29:16 -0600 Subject: labor slang Message-ID: "Vivid Vernacular Coined by Labor" Dec 1, 1955; Christian Science Monitor pg. B16/3 PIE CARD "A pie card is a soft job, while therblig relates to time and motion study." COOLIE OVERTIME, GALLOPING RATE "A method of figuring overtime pay is sometimes called coolie overtime, or galloping rate." LAME DUCK, SOLDIER (v) "For instance, lame duck has two meanings, a worker incapable of meeting his quota, or one who "soldiers" or deliberately slows down production." p. B16/4 BUG, SCABWAG "A bug is a union lable, a scabwag is a defeatist talker who advocates going back to work in an effort to break a strike." NOBLES "And when a union worker uses the term "nobles," the group can be sure that he is doing it derisively. He means armed guards hired to protect strikebreakers." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 4 01:33:55 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:33:55 -0500 Subject: Anyone for _surf and turf_? Message-ID: Here's a chance to make sure this is eventually cited in its correct form, hopefully with due credit given. Please send suggestions to the original poster below as well as copying the list. I'm assuming that the writer's "I've not had much luck" concession, combined with his willingness to ask, is a good omen. As is often the case, it's not clear if he's actually interested in first cites, etymology, or both. (What I know about _surf and turf_, besides the fact that it fits the pattern of other such rhyming pairs, is that it also fits the pattern of other "fixed binominals" or "freezes" in which the item denoting fish precedes the item denoting meat, as Cooper and Ross discuss in their 1975 "World Order" paper. That and 15 cents would have once gotten me on the subway, but without surf or turf.) Larry --- begin forwarded text To: laurence.horn at yale.edu From: Jim DeWan Subject: Dianne Jonas sent me Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 14:52:39 -0600 Dear Mr. Horn, I am a food journalist, researching the origin of the term "surf and turf" ("surf 'n turf"), and I wonder if you might be able to lend me any assistance. So far, I've not had much luck. Thanks in advance. I look forward to hearing from you. Warmly - Jim DeWan --- end forwarded text From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 4 03:35:19 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:35:19 -0500 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D01B4989B@rdec-exch8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. You sound pretty definite about the origin of this quotation, whereas quotations such as this don't usually have clearcut origins. Do you have any basis for the Patton son attribution? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 04:13:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:13:41 EST Subject: Boston accents on NPR Message-ID: _http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4256261_ (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4256261) ... A Celebration of Boston's Unique Accents _Day to Day_ (http://www.npr.org/programs/day/) , January 3, 2005 ? Pahk the kah in Hahvud yahd... Say what? To celebrate the launch of Day to Day on Boston member station WBUR, _NPR's Mike Pesca_ (http://www.npr.org/about/people/bios/mpesca.html) reports on the nuances of Bostonian accents From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 4 05:40:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:40:52 -0500 Subject: Anyone for _surf and turf_? Message-ID: The combination of "surf" and "turf" may owe something to the Del Mar Turf Club outside of San Diego, a racetrack opened by Bing Crosby in 1937. Crosby commemorated the track's opening with the song "Where the Turf Meets the Surf." Press accounts of the club in the late '30s sometimes referred to it as "The Turf and Surf Club" or "The Surf and Turf Club." Also, the hotel near the club was known as the Del Mar Turf and Surf Hotel. As far as "surf and turf" (or "turf and surf") in the "lobster and steak" sense goes, I doubt the coinage can be traced to one particular restaurant. The earliest citations I've found are from 1961 in the Los Angeles Times, referring to two different restaurants in L.A. A review of Bob Gaard's Dover House, a restaurant on the corner of La Cienega and Santa Monica Blvds., mentions a "turf and surf" entree: Los Angeles Times, Aug 13, 1961, p. N7 The "Turf and Surf" is an interesting combination: lobster tail and small beef tenderloin. Later that year, a restaurant called Happy Hollow on Silver Lake Blvd. advertised "surf and turf": Los Angeles Times, Dec 17, 1961, Calendar, p. 18 (advt.) Surf & Turf Australian Lobster Tail & Choice Top Sirloin Steak By the mid-'60s the surf/turf combo had spread to the East Coast. In the Syracuse Post Standard of June 26, 1964, an advertisement for the Seneca Manor restaurant includes: "Surf and Turf Plate - Broiled Lobster Tail and a Petite Filet of Mignon on Toast." But the "turf and surf" form also circulated, as in a Washington Post article of July 3, 1966 reviewing the Westside Room at the Century Plaza. By the late '60s, "surf and turf" had displaced "turf and surf" as the favored name for the lobster/steak entree. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 05:42:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:42:02 EST Subject: "Death is my business and business is good" (1972) Message-ID: Maybe it started in boxing? Someone said: "Hitting people is my business"? ... The 1972 citation here is the only Vietnam-era version I could find. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Sugar Ray Tells Bid of $1,000,000_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=519543982&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN P&TS=1104816442&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 7, 1958. p. C2 (1 page) 5. _Robinson Offered Million to Fight Floyd Patterson_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=121101536&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104816442&clientId=65882) The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 7, 1958. p. A15 (1 page) ... Robinson said the offer came in a telegram from Cy Weintraub, Los Angeles television man. "Boxing id my business and it looks like business is good," said Robinson, who added he'll fly to Los Angeles Sunday to talk to Weintraub. ... ... _GI Outdrew Foe On a Giant Scale_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=99601760&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 04816222&clientId=65882) Garry Wills. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 3, 1972. p. A13 (1 page) ... Only one character in a Western keeps piling up a record like that--the hired gun, the man whose motto reads "Death is my business, and business is good." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2mgMNe4iA0hhJWehdXzOOaCk7fTcognJ/UIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, April 07, 1947 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+is+our+business+and+busi ness+is+good) ...YOUR Protection IS OUR -BUSINESS AND BUSINESS IS GOOD 5 i m m m .SYRACUSE.....costs. i f t You'll enjoy doing BUSINESS-through yOUR own. friendly AND.. ... _Reno Evening Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2ljrlfOgmGlHLfCtpWQNifjHiBf35r4+zA==) Tuesday, April 22, 1958 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) ...SELLING CARS IS OUR BUSINESS... AND BUSINESS IS GOOD '57 FORD 'R7 FORD.....5 p.m. 53 WILLYS 4 wheel drive pickup. GOOD rubber, GOOD mechanical condition.. --- _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2lNim1l+7MhalGFZxGPWLhUtfW0/xA5jwEIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, December 12, 1966 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+is+our+business+and+b usiness+is+good) ...Ave. HU8-4023 DANCING IS OUR BUSINESS BUSINESS IS GOOD. Paye Dance 1444 E.....excellent condition throughout Do BUSINESS where BUSINESS IS belngdone GL.. ... _Daily Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2gHvQVCxosGsOjKVsleWSK2msO+tHino8UIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, August 18, 1967 _Salisbury,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+is+our+business+and+business+is+good) ...SELLING PROPERTY IS OUR BUSINESS AND BUSINESS IS GOOD LIST TODAY W. J. AHTES.....REAL ESTATE REAL ESTATE BUSINESS Places For Kent CENTRAL.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 06:37:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:37:12 EST Subject: Anyone for _surf and turf_? Message-ID: SURF AND TURF ... SURF AND TURG ... I'd previously discussed "Surf and Turf," "Land and Sea," "Beef and Reef," and "Fin and Feather." (I was going to revisit the subject for my food website, but I don't have a food website, and I can't seem to even pay money to a web designer for a food website. I do parking tickets like I did today from 8:30 a.m. to 7 p.m., with a half hour lunch, in a room with unbearable heat and no windows. 2005 really looks great.) ... MURDERERS' ROW ... This has also been discussed before, by Gerald Cohen and the 19th century baseball guys, I believe "murderers' row" might go back to NY's Tombs prison. ... JOE BLOW ... >HDAS examples of "Joe Blow" begin in the early '40s (unless Ben or Bill can push it back >further). There is no evidence, but one is now led to wonder how many early users found it, >too, to be "unprintably" vulgar. > >JL ... Well, I'm not Ben or Bill, so nobody asked me. I was doing much of this stuff eight years ago. I had posted a "Joe Blow" by Rube Goldberg from the NY Evening Mail, but I think that's destroyed in the old archives. ... "Joe Blow"--in the form that we know it and clearly not the name of a person--appears in the "Circus" section of Barry Buchanan's 1930s unpublished Encyclopedia of the Entertainment World. ... THREE BY FIVE ... A police guy before me today said that, when police radio to report a crazy person, they say they've got a "three-by-five" (card). From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jan 4 06:48:38 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:48:38 -0500 Subject: Old archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why are the old ADS-L archives not currently accessible? (Apologies if this has already been asked and answered.) -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 4 14:25:45 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:25:45 -0500 Subject: Old archives In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050104014626.02f75eb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: When we moved to the new server over the summer, the old indexing software had to be replaced. I'm still working on a solution (slowly), and also taking the time to remove dupes and to see where the gaps in the archives are. I had hoped to have it back up before the new year, but as you can see, that has not happened. I'll post to the list when I've finished. Meantime, if you need something specific out of them, let me know and I'll fetch it. Grant Why are the old ADS-L archives not currently accessible? (Apologies if > this > has already been asked and answered.) > > -- Doug Wilson > > From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jan 4 14:43:39 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:43:39 -0800 Subject: "Killing is our business, and business is good" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Fred Shapiro > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Killing is our business, and business is good" > > > On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > Note that this is George S. Patton, JR. -- son of the WWII general. > > You sound pretty definite about the origin of this quotation, whereas > quotations such as this don't usually have clearcut origins. Do you have > any basis for the Patton son attribution? Actually, George S. Patton, Jr. is the WWII general. His son was George III. AFAIK, the phrase is Vietnam-era. I don't know of any solid connection to any of the Pattons. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 14:50:57 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:50:57 EST Subject: Bush on Rove Message-ID: In a message dated > Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:00:24 -0500, Wilson Gray < > wilson.gray at RCN.COM> writes: > > not the kind of > language that one expects to see in a family-oriented roto-gravure, > especially not from the mouth of *the* Republican family man, and > published in a section edited by a man who has been nothing if not > completely outspoken in expressing the disgust that he feels toward > Clinton. > > > According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade in Parade for December > > 26, 2004, "[President] Bush has several nicknames for [Karl] Rove, 54, > > including ... 'Turd Blossom' ..." FYI, "Walter Scott" is a house name, not a person. My vague recollection is that circa 1970 it was used by the editor of Parade who personally put together the "Personality Parade" section. I have no idea who, or what committee, currently uses "Walter Scott". The circa 1970 Walter Scott had an acid pen in a velvet glove, with politely-written high-brow scorn for anyone who was not, as we now say, "politically correct". Just one example: Martha Mitchell was "a menopausal woman" until she happened to say something bad about Nixon, at which point she suddenly became "heroic". I assure you that whoever currently writes under the pseudonym "Walter Scott" is much, much blander than the 1970's writer. I haven't noticed any anti-Clinton bias on the part of the current Walter Scott. In fact, strong opinions on the part of the current Scott are so rare that it was disconcerting to read recently (I think Jan 2, 2005) his derogatory comments on "Desperate Housewives". Your phrase "completely outspoken" just doesn't fit. At least the current Walter Scott believes that African-Americans are people and writes about interesting African-Americans the same way he writes about interesting whites. The 1970's Walter Scott, in so far as I can trust my vague recollections, had a very limousine-liberal view of African-Americans and wrote about them only if they happened to publicly support his political and social biases. That, I hope, represents progress. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jan 4 14:55:55 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:55:55 EST Subject: labor slang Message-ID: In a message dated > Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:29:16 -0600, "Mullins, Bill" < > Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> > > > "Vivid Vernacular Coined by Labor" Dec 1, 1955; Christian Science Monitor > pg. B16/3 > > PIE CARD > "A pie card is a soft job, while therblig relates to time and motion study." "therblig" was not "coined by labor" I believe it was the deliberate coinage by the husband-and-wife team of Frank and LIllian Gilbreth, who were well-known pioneers in time-and-motion studies and industrial engineering (and incidentally the inspiration for the recent movie "Cheaper by the Dozen".) THERBLIG, a unit of workplace efficiency, is a word created by spelling approximately backwards the last name of engineer Frank B. Gilbreth and psychologist Lillian Gilbreth. THERBLIG is not in MWCD10; the three words in MWCD10 that were created as anagrams are SPANDEX (for "expands"), SIDEBURNS (for "burnsides"), and ITACONIC ACID (for "aconitic acid," from "aconite.") from http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words4.html From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 4 16:17:24 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:17:24 -0500 Subject: labor slang In-Reply-To: <1d0.2e241747.2f0c087b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > psychologist Lillian Gilbreth. THERBLIG is not in MWCD10; the three > words in MWCD10 that were created as anagrams are SPANDEX (for > "expands"), SIDEBURNS (for "burnsides"), and ITACONIC ACID (for > "aconitic acid," from "aconite.") There are other words in W10 that are full or partial anagrams; see "ellagic," for example. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From castas01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Tue Jan 4 16:00:05 2005 From: castas01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Courtney Stastyshyn) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:00:05 -0500 Subject: take me off Ads Message-ID: I do not want to be involved in any emails with the ADS anymore. Everyone please take me off your lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jan 4 17:01:33 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:01:33 -0600 Subject: FW: a new equivalent of "Joe Blow"--("Hugo Blomee" listed in a database) Message-ID: My thanks to George Cole for his message, which I now share with ads-l. He justifiably wonders how the name "Hugo Blomee" arrived in the database, and until this is clarified I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: GSCole > Sent: Monday, January 3, 2005 1:17 PM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: ..a name.. > > Gerald, > With reference to your recent note to ADS-L, I thought that the following might be of interest. A Hugo Blomee is listed for RONKONKOMA, NY. > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/newsearch;jsessionid=53F82B59FE7BFFBE4839B657B05F2911?searchFName=&searchMName=&searchLName=blomee&searchCity=&searchState=&searchApproxAge=45&adID=10002101&x=21&y=18 > > If the above URL doesn't work, go to: > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/preview.jsp It really only needs a > last name for search purposes. > > Supposedly, the site is one that allows you to find detailed information about folk. Wonder how Hugo arrived in their database? > > Just a note of possible interest. > > George Cole > Shippensburg University > > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 4 17:02:25 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:02:25 -0500 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context Message-ID: Heard on NPR's "Le Show", 2004-12-19, song titled "Christmas in Oblivion" about Bernie Kerik*: "A nanny would make a good beard". Referring to Kerik's apparent invention of an undocumented nanny as an explanation for his sudden departure from prominence, preferable to the revelation that he had risen in the first place merely as an incompetent and ethically impaired friend of the boss. *Dragon NaturallySpeaking initially misrecognized this name as "dirty character". Artificial intelligence? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Jan 4 17:34:44 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:34:44 -0600 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context In-Reply-To: <200501041702.j04H2Q5N014877@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: If I recall correctly, the word was used in a non(gay/straight) context in an episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" some years back; I'm away from home and can't check at the moment, but it was a Halloween episode, either season two (which would make it 1997) or season four (1999). In the scene, Buffy's mother commented that her (Buffy's) father used to love taking her trick-or-treating; Buffy said something to the effect that he loved the candy, and she was just the beard. (I'll be home in a couple of days; I'll be able to give more precise information then.) Jim Parish Quoting "Mark A. Mandel" : > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Heard on NPR's "Le Show", 2004-12-19, song titled "Christmas in Oblivion" > about Bernie Kerik*: "A nanny would make a good beard". Referring to Kerik's > apparent invention of an undocumented nanny as an explanation for his sudden > departure from prominence, preferable to the revelation that he had risen in > the first place merely as an incompetent and ethically impaired friend of > the boss. > > *Dragon NaturallySpeaking initially misrecognized this name as "dirty > character". Artificial intelligence? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > ------------------------------------------------- SIUE Web Mail From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 4 17:39:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:39:27 -0800 Subject: FW: a new equivalent of "Joe Blow"--("Hugo Blomee" listed in a database) Message-ID: Apropos of next to nothing, personal names in phone directories are not necessarily genuine. People sometimes make up names (or use the name of a pet) to have the privacy of an unlisted number without the extra charge. As long as someone pays thye bill, the phone company is happy. JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: FW: a new equivalent of "Joe Blow"--("Hugo Blomee" listed in a database) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My thanks to George Cole for his message, which I now share with ads-l. He justifiably wonders how the name "Hugo Blomee" arrived in the database, and until this is clarified I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: GSCole > Sent: Monday, January 3, 2005 1:17 PM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: ..a name.. > > Gerald, > With reference to your recent note to ADS-L, I thought that the following might be of interest. A Hugo Blomee is listed for RONKONKOMA, NY. > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/newsearch;jsessionid=53F82B59FE7BFFBE4839B657B05F2911?searchFName=&searchMName=&searchLName=blomee&searchCity=&searchState=&searchApproxAge=45&adID=10002101&x=21&y=18 > > If the above URL doesn't work, go to: > http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/preview.jsp It really only needs a > last name for search purposes. > > Supposedly, the site is one that allows you to find detailed information about folk. Wonder how Hugo arrived in their database? > > Just a note of possible interest. > > George Cole > Shippensburg University > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 4 18:49:40 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:49:40 -0500 Subject: second thoughts on Nkinis, bis In-Reply-To: <20041226050048.C1377B2452@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I just looked at the December 26 digest and saw the message that I had posted on Christmas Day, and found that it contained a speako that made hash of it: \\\\\\\\\\\\\ >>>>> >And most important Josephus had other reasons for rewriting them as >doing so, since he coward out of a pack made with his comrades. Not necessarily an eggcorn, since Josephus before he changed sides was a member of a "pack" (cf WWII "wolf-pack") of Jewish fighters. <<<<< But the presence of "made" is less likely in that reading than it is if "pack" is an eggcorn for "pack". //////////// That second "pack" should have been "pact": But the presence of "made" is less likely in that reading than it is if "pack" is an eggcorn for "pact". (Eggcorn hash?) -- Mark A. Mandel [I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is perfect.] From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jan 4 20:53:18 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:53:18 -0500 Subject: bubbler redux Message-ID: Jas. Bamfort in /A Pretext for War/ quotes a CIA case officer referring to some staff members in a particular situation as "bubblers." From the context I can't be sure this isn't just a nonce usage to suggest idling at idiotic level, but maybe it has another slang meaning......? I remember its being discussed here in connection with drinking fountains some time ago, but don't remember if other definitions came up then. A. Murie From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 4 21:23:16 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:23:16 -0500 Subject: labor slang Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:17:24 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > >> psychologist Lillian Gilbreth. THERBLIG is not in MWCD10; the three >> words in MWCD10 that were created as anagrams are SPANDEX (for >> "expands"), SIDEBURNS (for "burnsides"), and ITACONIC ACID (for >> "aconitic acid," from "aconite.") > >There are other words in W10 that are full or partial anagrams; see >"ellagic," for example. And W11 has added "cotinine" (an anagram of "nicotine"). --Ben Zimmer From eeksypeeksy at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 4 21:24:46 2005 From: eeksypeeksy at GMAIL.COM (Malcolm Davidson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:24:46 +0100 Subject: take me off Ads In-Reply-To: <8342826466235735740@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:00:05 -0500, Courtney Stastyshyn wrote: > I do not want to be involved in any emails with the ADS anymore. Everyone > please take me off your lists. http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html To leave the list at any time, send "SIGNOFF ADS-L" the complete body of an email message from the account which you would like to unsubscribe, to listserv at listserv.uga.edu. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 4 23:49:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:49:13 -0500 Subject: must-buy, must-read, must-see Message-ID: * must-buy (OED3 1979) 1934 _Chronicle Telegram_ (Elyria, Ohio) 23 Mar. 12/1 (advt.) Add this great value to your list of "must buys" for spring. 1940 _Chicago Tribune_ 18 Nov 17/7 When the dark fur coats finally get out into daily circulation, pastel colored thin wool dresses become a "must" buy for nearly every shopper. 1951 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Texas) 6 May 1/2 What are your must-buys for May? * must-read (OED3 1973) 1945 _Chicago Tribune_ 19 May 5/7 (advt.) It's the most-discussed novel of the season ... a must read if you like to keep up with the new books! 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 17 Feb. B1/8 With idealists shouting all over the world the need for better understanding in human relationships, here is a book that is a "must read" for every honest American. 1949 _Zanesville Signal_ (Ohio) 27 Nov. III9/5 A Must-Read Book about war hero Bernt Balchen: "Hitch Your Wagon." 1950 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 5 Feb. 14/1 A must-read for civilized people (and even the gullibles on pamphleteers' lists) is "The Strange Case of Merwin K. Hart" in Plain Talk mag for Feb. * must-see, n. (OED3 1976) 1936 _New York Times_ 17 Sep. 4/1 (advt.) A "must see" on your Entertainment program! 1937 _Washington Post_ 1 May 16/1 Recommended for the entire family; never dull; not a must-see, but in truth, a picture you will enjoy. 1939 _Port Arthur News_ (Texas) 29 Jan. B6/3 (heading) 'Jesse James' is a must-see on picture list. * must-see, a. (OED3 1991) 1936 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Aug 3/1 (advt.) It's a "must see show" now at the Biltmore Bowl. 1938 _Los Angeles Times_ 11 Mar. 15/7 (advt.) we advise everyone to chalk up 'Mad About Music' as a 'must see' picture! 1940 _Marion Star_ (Ohio) 20 July 5/4 (advt.) This is a must see attraction. 1943 _Portsmouth Herald_ (New Hampshire) 6/5 Dr. Valeria Parker, nationally known director of the Bureau of Marriage Counsel and Education, recommends it is a "must-see" picture for the entire family. --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 5 01:58:34 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: must-buy, must-read, must-see In-Reply-To: <28267.69.142.143.59.1104882553.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: I suppose "must-have" is the senior member of the group? I see it in 1878 at N'archive. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 5 03:20:42 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:20:42 -0800 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context In-Reply-To: <1104860084.41dad3b413d6f@webmail.siue.edu> Message-ID: It was the season four episode, in Act II of "Fear, Itself." The script is dated 8 Oct 1999. The episode was first broadcast 28 Oct 1999: "BUFFY Oh, he was such a pain! Twelve years old and I can't go trick-or-treating by myself. "[They're both laughing now.] "JOYCE He wanted to keep you safe. "BUFFY Nuh-uh, he wanted the candy. I was only the beard." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jim Parish > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:35 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context > > > If I recall correctly, the word was used in a non(gay/straight) context in > an episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" some years back; I'm > away from home > and can't check at the moment, but it was a Halloween episode, > either season > two (which would make it 1997) or season four (1999). In the > scene, Buffy's > mother commented that her (Buffy's) father used to love taking her > trick-or-treating; Buffy said something to the effect that he loved the > candy, and she was just the beard. (I'll be home in a couple of days; I'll > be able to give more precise information then.) > > Jim Parish > > Quoting "Mark A. Mandel" : > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > > Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------- > > > > Heard on NPR's "Le Show", 2004-12-19, song titled "Christmas in > Oblivion" > > about Bernie Kerik*: "A nanny would make a good beard". > Referring to Kerik's > > apparent invention of an undocumented nanny as an explanation > for his sudden > > departure from prominence, preferable to the revelation that he > had risen in > > the first place merely as an incompetent and ethically impaired > friend of > > the boss. > > > > *Dragon NaturallySpeaking initially misrecognized this name as "dirty > > character". Artificial intelligence? > > > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > SIUE Web Mail > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 03:40:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:40:01 EST Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits ... Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." Gotta keep Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. Is this from the late 1960s?..Nowadays, of course, people don't chant this and do stretching exercises to increase bust size. Alas. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _The Young Teen Scene_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=90628448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1104895579&cl ientId=65882) By DOROTHY BRODERICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 8, 1970. p. 325 (3 pages) Third page: The best book of the seven and a good book by any terms, is _ARE YOU THERE GOD? IT'S ME, MARGARET_ by Judy Blume (Bradbury, $4.50). (...) The chant, "I must--I must--I must increase my bust!" accompanied by the appropriate exercises will evoke in older females memories of similar experiences. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 03:51:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:51:56 EST Subject: Tsunami (1867, 1896) Message-ID: Author _Medhurst, Walter Henry, 1796-1857._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aMedhurst,+Walter+Henry,+1796-1857./amedhurst+walter+henry+1796-1857/-5,-1,0 ,B/browse) Title An English and Japanese, and Japanese and English vocabulary : compiled from native works / by W. H. Medhurst. Imprint Batavia : [s.n.], 1830. Pg. 5: wave Na-mi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- Author _Hepburn, J. C. (James Curtis), 1815-1911._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aHepburn,+J.+C.+(James+Curtis),+1815-1911./ahepburn+j+c+james+curtis+ 1815-1911/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title A Japanese and English dictionary; with and English and Japanese index. By J.C. Hepburn. Imprint Shanghai, American Presbyterian Mission Press, 1867. Pg. 496: TSZNAMI, (Japanese--ed.), n. A large wave which rolls over and inundates the land. ------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author _Brinkley, F. (Frank), 1841-1912._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aBrinkley,+F.+(Frank),+1841-1912./abrinkley+f+frank+1841-1912/-5,-1,0,B/browse ) Title An unabridged Japanese-English dictionary, with copious illustrations, by Capt. F. Brinkley...F. Nanj?o...Y. Iwasaki...with cooperation of Prof. K. Mitsukuri in zoological terms, Prof. J. Matsumura in botanical terms. Imprint T?oky?o, Sanseid?o [1896] Pg. 1534: Tsunami n. A large rolling wave which inundates the land. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 5 03:52:11 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:52:11 -0500 Subject: "Beard" = 'cover story' without gay/straight context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:20 PM -0800 1/4/05, Dave Wilton wrote: >It was the season four episode, in Act II of "Fear, Itself." The script is >dated 8 Oct 1999. The episode was first broadcast 28 Oct 1999: > >"BUFFY Oh, he was such a pain! Twelve years old and I can't go >trick-or-treating by myself. > >"[They're both laughing now.] > >"JOYCE He wanted to keep you safe. > >"BUFFY Nuh-uh, he wanted the candy. I was only the beard." > >--Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > http://www.wilton.net > It may be worth noting that the gambling uses of "beard" predate that of the opposite-sex-companion one in HDAS, although obviously the 1971 citation of the latter in Bruce Rodgers's _Queens' Vernacular_ reflects prevailing usage (he has "known in Las Vegas mid-60's" for that use, which he defines as 'a woman who dates homosexual men to help them socially; to date a women to prevent suspicion of being homosexual'). The gambling uses go back to 1955 in print but was apparently extant much earlier: "T. Betts", _Across the Board_ 15 [ref. to ca 1920]: I played horses, using men as betting commissioners, or "beards" as they were called at the race track. op. cit., 171: He needed a beard on this coup; he never could have bought it on his own. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 04:05:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:05:58 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$4irntp@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits FWIW, my wife remembers this chant from early in her adolescence, ca.1958, in Kingston, a town in the Wyoming Valley region of NE Penna. -Wilson Gray > ... > Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." > Gotta keep > Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. Is this from the late > 1960s?..Nowadays, of course, people don't chant this and do stretching > exercises to increase > bust size. Alas. > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > _The Young Teen Scene_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=90628448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1104895579&cl > ientId=65882) > By DOROTHY BRODERICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, > N.Y.: Nov > 8, 1970. p. 325 (3 pages) > Third page: > The best book of the seven and a good book by any terms, is _ARE YOU > THERE > GOD? IT'S ME, MARGARET_ by Judy Blume (Bradbury, $4.50). (...) The > chant, "I > must--I must--I must increase my bust!" accompanied by the appropriate > exercises will evoke in older females memories of similar > experiences. > From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Jan 4 23:40:26 2005 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:40:26 +0000 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <1B0A0FA9-5ECF-11D9-AC58-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: In the interests of historical accuracy (yeah, right), I submit the full rhyme as I learned it, circa 1972: We MUST We MUST We MUST increase our BUSTS The BIGger the better the BOYS will love us we MUST increase our BUSTS! -WRN At 04:05 AM 1/5/05, you wrote: >On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits > >FWIW, my wife remembers this chant from early in her adolescence, >ca.1958, in Kingston, a town in the Wyoming Valley region of NE Penna. > >-Wilson Gray > >>... >>Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." >>Gotta keep >>Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. Is this from the late >>1960s?..Nowadays, of course, people don't chant this and do stretching >>exercises to increase >>bust size. Alas. >>... >>... >>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >>_The Young Teen Scene_ >>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? >> > index=0&did=90628448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 >> > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1104895579&cl >> > ientId=65882) >>By DOROTHY BRODERICK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, >>N.Y.: Nov >>8, 1970. p. 325 (3 pages) >>Third page: >>The best book of the seven and a good book by any terms, is _ARE YOU >>THERE >>GOD? IT'S ME, MARGARET_ by Judy Blume (Bradbury, $4.50). (...) The >>chant, "I >>must--I must--I must increase my bust!" accompanied by the appropriate >>exercises will evoke in older females memories of similar >>experiences. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 05:05:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:05:27 -0500 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary > http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > > Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. > Gonzales > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina > Coast > "Gullah" reminds me of "geechee." Among blacks in East Texas along the border with Louisiana, this term, _geechee_, is applied to blacks from Louisiana, particularly those who speak what's known to ETx blacks as "Gumbo French." It also is applied to black Louisianans with French (sur)names, e.g. the bluesmen Clifton Chenier and Jean Baptiste "J.B." LeNoir, the jazzman Jean Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet, the R&B singers the Trenier Twins and Antoine "Fats" Domino. Sometimes, merely speaking an obviously non-Texas dialect, such as that of New Orleans, is enough to render a person geechee. There's no opprobrium that attaches to being considered geechee, -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 5 05:39:46 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:39:46 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: >From: Wilson Gray >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Sent: 1/4/2005 11:05 PM >Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words > >There's no opprobrium that attaches to >being considered geechee, In the movie "A Soldier's Story" (1984), the character played by Adolph Caesar (what an actor he was) called someone a "geechee nigger", and he sure wasn't being complimentary about either part. I got the clear impression that there was some sort of class thing going on there -- that geechee was something like hillbilly or hick or redneck, to his character (which was regular army all the way). Don't know if this sequence was original to the play on which the movie was based. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 5 06:56:31 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:56:31 -0600 Subject: sports antedates and cites Message-ID: back-field (n, American football) (OED has 1923) "Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes. Football." Arthur Inkersley, _Outing_, December, 1896, No. 3, p. 290/2 "With Morice doing the kicking, and a better man at quarter, Penn's team will be very strong, for her line men are unusually strong, and the individuals in the back-field are fairly so." center (n; basketball) (OED does not have a specific basketball sense) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 227/2 "The center closes in toward his own goal when it is in danger, but the instant one of his guards has secured the ball, he stands ready to take it on the pass and send it on to the forwards, either by a second pass or by dribbling it up the field." dribble (v, trans; basketball) (OED does not have basketball sense; "dribbled" is in a 1951 cite for "lay-in") "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 226/1 "The players cannot carry the ball nor can they kick it, the method of progressing being restricted to passing, batting or "dribbling" the ball." field-goal (American football) (OED has 1902) "Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes. Football." J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1898, No. 3, p. 316/2 "If the touchdown counted but three points, and the goal from it but one more, the five which a field-goal now earns would be more in keeping with its relative value, and also lessen the present probability of tie games." forward (n; basketball) (OED does not have basketball sense) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 227/1 "The forwards conduct most of the attack and it is generally their work to throw the goals, while the guards conduct the defense." foul tip (OED has 1889) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 162/2 "This is called a "foul tip," and puts the batsman out." free-throw (n) (OED does not have basketball sense, but it appears in a 1955 cite for "back-board") "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 226/2 "The game is scored by points, but there are only two methods of making points-goals from the field and goals from free throws." guard (n) (American football position) (OED has 1897) "The Game and Laws of American Football," Walter C. Camp, _Outing_, October, 1886, No. 1, p. 70/1 "The "right" and "left guard" and the "next-to-the-ends" are relatively every bit as important as the individual positions above described; but every team has a different way of using these men, and the methods depend entirely upon the qualifications of the men-the only real separation being in the fact that the "guards" have to act more as assistants of the center, and the others of the wings or "ends." " full-back (n, American football position) (OED has 1887) "Our Monthly Record," _Outing_, December, 1886, p. 281 col 1. "The teams were: Yale - Rushers, Corwin, Gill, Woodruff, Corbin, Carter, Hamlin, Wallace; quarterback, Beacher; halfbacks, Watkinson and Morrison; fullback, Durant." guard (n) (basketball) (OED has 1905) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 227/1 "A basket-ball team is made up of five players, corresponding closely to the forwards, center, and backs of Association football. They act as right and left forwards, the center, and right and left guards. " infield (n, baseball) (OED has 1906 for the sense of the group of players who play in the infield) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 162/1 "These four men constitute the "infield" of the team." p. 163/1 "The Infield-A term applied to the first, second, third baseman and short-stop." make (v) (OED sense 52.e, "make a team", 1902) "Basketball," J. Parmly Paret, _Outing_, December, 1897, No. 3, p. 226/1 "The competitive side of the sport interests men to keep in condition by a course of basket-ball, who otherwise would refuse point-blank to train during the winter; and class and inter-class games, with a few inter-collegiate matches, serve to add enough interest to make the 'varsity basket-ball team almost as difficult to "make" as the football and baseball teams." rush (v, American football) (OED has 1949) "Editors Open Window," _Outing_, January, 1887, p. 377/2. "Harvard and Princeton have largely confined their efforts to improvement in running with the ball, or 'rushing,' as it is technically called." "Our Monthly Record," _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 186/1 "Last year the snapper-back could not rush the ball until it had touched a third man." slide (v, baseball) (OED has 1891) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 164/1 "Slide-When a base-runner sees that there is a chance of the fielders getting the ball to the base for which he is making before he gets there himself, he will plunge head first, or feet first, for the bag, sliding over the ground upon his stomach or back, a distance of ten feet or more to the base; this is called base-sliding, and is a reckless and daring feature of the game that invariably arouses much enthusiasm in America." tackle (n, American football position) (OED has 1891) "Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes. Football." Arthur Inkersley, Outing, December, 1896, p. 290/2 "McCracken is a very strong player at either guard or tackle, and can fill any vacancy at either of these places quite satisfactorily. " touch-back (n, American football) (OED has 1891) "Our Monthly Record," _Outing_, July, 1888, p. 381/1 "A "touch back" is a new term, and was defined as""made when a player touches the ball to the ground behind his goal, the impetus which sent the ball across the line having been received from opponents." " From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 5 08:09:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:09:13 -0500 Subject: nail-biting/bitingly/biter Message-ID: * nail-biting, a. = 'tense, suspenseful' (OED3 1962) 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Nov. II2/3 Natural melodrama resulting from a U-boat's stalking of an allied freighter, and the undersea prowler's eventual destruction, generates enough nail-biting suspense for anyone. 1950 _Washington Post_ 16 June C9/1 It's got believable characters, nail-biting suspense and that canny thing called style. 1951 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 9 Dec. 39/2 The screenplay, now at the Midtown, also was written by Williams, and it makes a nerve-wracking, nail-biting film. 1952 _New York Times_ 5 Nov. 41/2 Dalray kept his backers guessing until the final furlongs, producing a nail-biting finish which matched the pre-race confusion. * nail-bitingly (OED3 1961) 1958 _New York Times_ 28 Mar. 29/3 All of these dangerous adventures are severely, nail-bitingly tense. * nail-biter = 'a suspenseful event, situation, etc.' (OED3 1971) 1957 _New York Times_ 1 Nov. 31/1 (advt.) A chase story -- a real nail-biter! [Quoting Newsweek review of the film _Across The Bridge_] 1958 _Holland Evening Sentinel_ (Michigan) 21 July 9/1 Bunning's effort crescendoed into a nail-biter in the ninth inning. 1958 _Washington Post_ 21 Sep. C7/1 Chevy Chase won the Interclub League B division championship, defeating Buckingham in a playoff that was a real nail-biter. 1959 _Washington Post_ 28 Feb. A10/7 George Washington University was defeated in a nail-biter by The Citadel, 53-52. --Ben Zimmer From indigo at WELL.COM Wed Jan 5 09:12:11 2005 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 01:12:11 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: I remember the last line (circa 1976-7) as: The BIGger the better, the TIGHTer the sweater, the BOYS are depending on us! Was that the version in Are You There God, It's Me Margaret? Must also say, none of us ever took it seriously. We thought it was ridiculous. We girls all read that book (& all other Blume books, including the scandalous, permission-slip-necessary Forever) but could not remotely understand why she wanted her period so badly (or at all). I guess second-wave feminism was having some kind of impact in Marin County, CA. >In the interests of historical accuracy (yeah, right), I submit the full >rhyme as I learned it, circa 1972: > >We MUST >We MUST >We MUST increase our BUSTS >The BIGger the better the BOYS will love us we MUST increase our BUSTS! > >-WRN -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Fetish of the week: flannel pajamas From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 5 09:47:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 04:47:00 -0500 Subject: name-drop/dropper/dropping Message-ID: * name-dropper (OED3 1947) 1939 _Los Angeles Times_ 17 Jan. II5/5 "My pet aversion," she said, "is the name dropper, the type that is always saying: 'Well, J.P. told me yesterday and when I had lunch with the P. of W., he said--' I say to them: 'The P. of What?' 'The P. of W., the Prince of Wales, of course,' they say." 1940 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 28 Oct. 15/1 The one about the name-dropper at Club 18, who kept telling stories about himself with big-shots and celebrities until Jack White, who couldn't stand it any longer, heckled: "Say, lissen! Don't you know any common people?" * name-dropping, n. (OED3 1950) 1945 _Washington Post_ 4 Oct. 14/5 When it's all over, quite a number of former servicemen will be able to go home and say, "When I was at the White House..." "As the President said to me..." "That time I was dancing with Margaret Truman..." and these fellows won't be just name dropping either. 1948 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Texas) 30 Oct. 4/4 At any rate the release of this letter which Horch put out was a job of name-dropping and worthy of that master name-dropper Felix Frankfurter himself. 1950 _Waukesha Daily Freeman_ (wisconsin) 31 Aug. 17/1 A fast line, grandiose claims, a firecracker string of name-droppings, introductions to cronies in Broadway haunts who back up the imposter's false claims -- these add up to beguiling the innocent. * name-dropping, a. (OED3 1966) 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 26 Aug. II5/3 Here is a story WITHOUT names for this name-dropping column. 1950 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 25 July 9/1 A name-dropping author who returned from Hollywood was asked if he'd sold a script. 1954 _Los Angeles Times 19 Oct. 26/2 If there was one objection, it was to the "name-dropping" habit of these super one-shots. * name-drop, v. trans. (OED3 1975) 1948 _Berkshire Evening Eagle_ (Pittsfield, Mass.) 3 Sep. 3/7 Once, in desperation after failing to evoke receptivity by repeatedly name-dropping Franklin Roosevelt, Henry searched helplessly for some established political names with which to sanctify himself by association. * name-drop, v. intr. (OED3 1955) 1950 _Nevada State Journal_ 20 Jan. 4/5 During the past couple of weeks, almost every one of our guests -- and if I haven't name-dropped enough, the roster included Lily Pons and Sir Cedric Hardwicke -- has taken the trouble to write or phone and tell us what a memorable evening it was. 1951 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 27 Apr. 59/7 This appalled Berlin, who took him to the uppitty joynt, where Irving indignantly name-dropped to the manager: "Do you realize who this is? He wrote 'Old Black Magic' and 'Stormy Weather!'" * name-drop, n. (OED3 1964) 1951 _Reno Evening Gazette_ (Nevada) 11 Jan. 6/7 It is certainly natural that promoters of concert, television and radio would attempt to corral Miss Truman, if she sang no better than Donald Duck, merely for the name-drop value. --Ben Zimmer From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 5 10:59:10 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:59:10 +0000 Subject: Eggheads' Naughty Word Games In-Reply-To: <200412280549.iBS5nRlk001527@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 28/12/04 5:49 am, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Eggheads' Naughty Word Games > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:22 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > >> At 10:02 PM -0500 12/27/04, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> Arnold, >>> >>> You probably don't know this, but Strausbaugh more often writes for >>> the >>> alternative-alternative weekly, New York Press, here in New York City. >>> He's a crank import from Baltimore--the classic uncompassionate >>> conservative with about as much goodwill and charisma as can fit in a >>> skeeter sphincter. His M.O. is, typically, to take any view which >>> opposes what he perceives as the traditional Village Voice editorial >>> stance. He writes about sports sometimes, too, because he thinks it >>> makes him more likeable. It doesn't. >>> >>> You practice your two-step, I'll bring the coffee table. >> >> and lest one think it's only those lit critters' ox that's being >> gored, one of the apparently too-silly-to-contemplate titles mocked >> in the article is the eminently interesting >> "Dude! Your dress is so cute! Patterns of semantic widening in >> 'dude'", which, Mr. Strausbaugh informs us, represents "an almost >> abject embrace of low/popular culture". Evidently, if "dude" used to >> be applied solely to males and is now generalized to women as well, >> at least as a vocative, and thus is following in the footsteps of >> "guy", this isn't something we need to worry our pretty little heads >> about. Clearly this is all just too infra dig when it applies to >> low/popular cultural items, although perhaps we're allowed to notice >> it when it affects words of middlebrow standing or above. (Perhaps >> this is the same research by Scott Kiesling reported in that cnn.com >> piece mentioned earlier this month, >> http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/08/dude.study.ap/index.html >> --but this would only be more evidence that the media is paying too >> much attention to us table-dancers.) > > i've tried to keep the tone of this discussion on the light side, but > here larry makes explicit a vein of moral outrage that i want to > expose. the uses of words and other expressions make differences in > our lives; they are not morally neutral. belittling particular uses > dismisses the people who use them, not to mention those of us who study > the people who use them. > > power to the table-dancers! > > arnold Hey - I used to be an ass-man, until a feminist pointed out that this was sexist: so now I'm an ass-person. Neil Crawford neil at typog.co.uk From orinkh at CARR.ORG Wed Jan 5 12:10:12 2005 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:10:12 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: >===== Original Message From American Dialect Society ===== >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Indigo Som >Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > >I remember the last line (circa 1976-7) as: >The BIGger the better, the TIGHTer the sweater, the BOYS are depending on us! > The version imprinted on my brain (because accompanied by startling exercises in a garage in Monte Vista CO, circa 1974) was: You MUST You MUST Exercise your BUST For FEAR For FEAR It will disapPEAR Orin Hargraves From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 14:23:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:23:34 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> From: Wilson Gray >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Sent: 1/4/2005 11:05 PM >> Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words >> >> There's no opprobrium that attaches to >> being considered geechee, > > In the movie "A Soldier's Story" (1984), the character played by Adolph > Caesar (what an actor he was) called someone a "geechee nigger", and > he sure > wasn't being complimentary about either part. I got the clear > impression > that there was some sort of class thing going on there -- that geechee > was > something like hillbilly or hick or redneck, to his character (which > was > regular army all the way). Don't know if this sequence was original > to the > play on which the movie was based. > Yes, I remember that. I've seen both the play once and the movie several times and I agree with your interpretation of the meaning of the language used in that scene. FWIW, both DARE and HDAS also agree with you WRT the negative reading. In any case, what I apparently failed to make clear is that I'm claiming that it's only in the part of *Texas* that I'm from that "geechee" isn't ever an insult, but merely a descriptor, like saying that a person is "black-headed" (brunette). I didn't intend to imply that what's true for East Texas is universally true. -Wilson Gray From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 14:33:47 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:33:47 EST Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: In a message dated > Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:40:01 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM > > I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits > ... > Ben Zimmer is doing "must-see," but he leaves out another "must." Gotta > keep > Fred Shapiro abreast of these things. "abreast"??? Wash your keyboard out with soap!! - Jim Landau From larry at SCROGGS.COM Wed Jan 5 14:39:37 2005 From: larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 06:39:37 -0800 Subject: I MUST INCREASE MY BUST In-Reply-To: <20050105045737.DF76023C5FF@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I MUST INCREASE MY BUST--688 Google hits, 299 Google Groups hits I attended a small rural high school in Limestone, Maine in 1961-62. One or two days a week we had co-ed physical education in the school gym. The boys would use half the gym and the girls the other half and we were usually separated by a sliding vinyl partition. I clearly recall the girls chanting "We must, we must, develop our busts." while doing isometric exercises for the chest muscles. Sometimes the boys and girls were brought together to learn ballroom dancing. As I recall. it was quite enjoyable for a young, shy freshman like myself. Larry Larry at Scroggs.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 5 15:32:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:32:02 -0800 Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words Message-ID: Thirty years ago (that's a full generation ago, for those like me who need a reminder) a fellow graduate student described herself to me as a "geechee" because she came from rural, coastal South Carolina. Evidently the word applies to whites as well. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 2, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: A Glossary of Gullah Words > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary > http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > > Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. > Gonzales > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina > Coast > "Gullah" reminds me of "geechee." Among blacks in East Texas along the border with Louisiana, this term, _geechee_, is applied to blacks from Louisiana, particularly those who speak what's known to ETx blacks as "Gumbo French." It also is applied to black Louisianans with French (sur)names, e.g. the bluesmen Clifton Chenier and Jean Baptiste "J.B." LeNoir, the jazzman Jean Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet, the R&B singers the Trenier Twins and Antoine "Fats" Domino. Sometimes, merely speaking an obviously non-Texas dialect, such as that of New Orleans, is enough to render a person geechee. There's no opprobrium that attaches to being considered geechee, -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Wed Jan 5 16:04:14 2005 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:04:14 -0500 Subject: Lansing State Journal claims Message-ID: The Lansing State Journal announced on 12/23 that UP English, "Yooper-speak", is dying out. http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041223/O PINION01/412230329&SearchID=73195139373021 The January 1 edition also claims that the 30-year-old Lake Superior State University "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for Mis-Use, Over-Use, and General Uselessness" was imitated by the ADS "Words of the Year". How long has the ADS been doing this, and did the idea come from the LSSU list, as the LSJ claims? Herb From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 5 16:31:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:31:14 -0500 Subject: Lansing State Journal claims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somebody who was in the field at the time might have more information about whether the idea was copied (or if it matters or even if anyone gives a hoot), but the banished words lists does date to around 1975 or so, as an article from 1980 calls that year's list the 6th annual, which makes this year their 31st annual, if I calculate correctly. The first ADS WOTY list is for 1990, which makes this year its 15th annual. Grant Barrett On Jan 5, 2005, at 11:04, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: > The January 1 edition also claims that the 30-year-old Lake Superior > State University "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for > Mis-Use, Over-Use, and General Uselessness" was imitated by the ADS > "Words of the Year". How long has the ADS been doing this, and did the > idea come from the LSSU list, as the LSJ claims? From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Wed Jan 5 16:52:37 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:52:37 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" Message-ID: Is the above word current enough to be used in print without explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this morning's Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." A very useful word, I think. TOM PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 16:55:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:55:08 -0500 Subject: sports antedates and cites (slide); Lansing claims to WOTY Message-ID: SLIDE slide (v, baseball) (OED has 1891) "Baseball in Australia," Harry Palmer, _Outing_, November, 1888, p. 164/1 "Slide-When a base-runner sees that there is a chance of the fielders getting the ball to the base for which he is making before he gets there himself, he will plunge head first, or feet first, for the bag, sliding over the ground upon his stomach or back, a distance of ten feet or more to the base; this is called base-sliding, and is a reckless and daring feature of the game that invariably arouses much enthusiasm in America. It's earlier than this, but the Sporting News starts here. 29 March 1886, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 6, col. 4: "Hey there Gus," said Charley, "I hear that you are teaching your boys how to slide. How do they go, old boy. On rollers, head or feet first, or do they wear a sliding pad. How do they go, anyhow?" "Every which way," said Gus. "Sometimes they slide head first and sometimes feet first, and then again they come every which way. Look out for 'em, Charley." -------------------------------------------------------------- LANSING CLAIMS Yes, the Banished Words List was first. But it's not like anyone has invented a "best of the year" list, preventing all others from doing so. Britannica was doing words of the year even before Lake Superior. Should the Lake Superior people give some kind of asterisk when they present their work? From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 5 16:55:22 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:55:22 +0000 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: <200501051652.j05GqnRv002313@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 5/1/05 4:52 pm, Thomas Paikeday at thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Thomas Paikeday > Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = > explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this morning's = > Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael = > Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. > > I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is = > used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." > > A very useful word, I think. > > TOM PAIKEDAY > www.paikeday.net Shouldn't that be 'daughter in law - not!' Neil Crawford neil at typog.co.uk From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Jan 5 17:04:57 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:04:57 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: <200501050623400.SM01664@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some of the resources below may be of interest. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on amix of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." African Languages http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html World Creoles http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html American Virgin Islands Creole http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html best, Karen Ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 5 17:10:16 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:10:16 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050105050029.56BC4B2482@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from the sixties. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 5 18:13:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:13:08 -0800 Subject: more mothers on language Message-ID: from my daughter: lots of opinions about english... http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php? az=show_topics&forum=18&topic_id=14114&mode=full&page= arnold From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Wed Jan 5 18:37:59 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:37:59 EST Subject: Geechee Message-ID: In a message dated 1/4/2005 9:20:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender:???? American Dialect Society > Poster:???? Wilson Gray > Subject:??? Re: A Glossary of Gullah Words > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > On Jan 2, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender:???? American Dialect Society > >Poster:???? Jerry E Kane > >Subject:??? A Glossary of Gullah Words > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-------- > > > >Gullah Tours - Charleston, SC - Abridged Gullah Dictionary > >http://www.gullahtours.com/gullah_dictionary.html > > > >Glossary of Gullah Words taken from The Black Border by Ambrose E. > >Gonzales > > > > Amazon.com: Books: The Black Border: Gullah Stories of the Carolina > >Coast > > > > "Gullah" reminds me of "geechee." Among blacks in East Texas along the > border with Louisiana, this term, _geechee_, is applied to blacks from > Louisiana, particularly those who speak what's known to ETx blacks as > "Gumbo French."? It also is applied to black Louisianans with French > (sur)names, e.g. the bluesmen Clifton Chenier and Jean Baptiste "J.B." > LeNoir, the jazzman Jean Baptiste "Illinois" Jacquet, the R&B singers > the Trenier Twins and Antoine "Fats" Domino. Sometimes, merely speaking > an obviously non-Texas dialect, such as that of New Orleans, is enough > to render a person geechee. There's no opprobrium that attaches to > being considered geechee, > > -Wilson Gray > According to the American Heritage Dictionary the word Geechee derives from the Ogeechee? River. Geechee. The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. A snippet from the following website: It is believed the name Ogeechee comes from the Muskogean word meaning "River of the Yuchis," which was an Indian tribe that lived near the river. Sherpa Guides | Georgia | Coast | Savannah | Ogeechee River http://sherpaguides.com/georgia/coast/northern_coast/ogeechee_river.html Map of the Ogeechee River: Sherpa Guides | Georgia | Coast | Ossabaw Island http://sherpaguides.com/georgia/coast/northern_coast/ossabaw_island_map.html Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 5 18:50:45 2005 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:50:45 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050105120920.N13738@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "We must, we must, we must increase our bust. It's better, it's better, it's better for the sweater." H.S. Lasseter High School. Macon, GA. 1965. Brenda K. Lester "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from the sixties. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 5 19:10:59 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:10:59 -0600 Subject: horse's neck, gin fizz, hoboland, grafter Message-ID: horse's neck (OED: "horse's neck slang (orig. U.S.), a beverage of ginger ale flavoured with lemon-peel, with or without the addition of whisky, brandy, or gin; horse's tail"; 1903) "Down to the Finals," Chicago Daily Tribune; Jul 7, 1900; pg. 6/5 "The weather man and the dispenser of "high balls," "horses necks," and "gin fizzes" have a perfect understanding." Gin fizz (OED has 1891, I think Barry has taken it back to 1880's) "A Bar Maid's Bonanza." The Atlanta Constitution; Nov 19, 1886; pg. 4/2 "She dispensed gin fizzes and killing glances with a fascinating abandon that knocked her admirers silly, if we may be allowed to dropinto the expressive slang of the period." "HUTCHINSON OUTPITCHES CLARKSON." Chicago Daily Tribune; Jul 5, 1890; pg. 6/3 "He could not celebrate in the orthodox fashion, as he is too old for firecrackers and bombs, and cocktails and gin fizz are tabooed by watchful managers of ball clubs." hoboland (not in OED) FUND RAISED BY YEGGMEN. Los Angeles Times; Apr 26, 1903; pg. C1/3 "Capt. Bradish said it was a common thing in hoboland." grafter (OED 3rd entry, sense 1, 1899) "A PICKPOCKET'S DEVICE." Los Angeles Times; Mar 26, 1895; pg. 12/2 "With the aid of this instrument, the "grafter" can reach into a man's pocket and abstact his purse a great deal more deftly than with his naked digits." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 19:16:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:16:36 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$4kklvd@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from > the > sixties. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > I had never heard of this at all, till my wife mentioned it, one time. And, even after that, I had only the impression that it was just something that she and her girl friends had made up as they approached puberty back in the late '50's. But it turns out to be known by women from all over the country. Who'd a thunk it?! -Wilson Gray From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 5 19:19:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:19:08 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:55 PM +0000 1/5/05, neil wrote: >on 5/1/05 4:52 pm, Thomas Paikeday at thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Thomas Paikeday >> Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = >> explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this morning's = >> Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael = >> Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. >> >> I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is = >> used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." >> >> A very useful word, I think. >> >> TOM PAIKEDAY >> www.paikeday.net > >Shouldn't that be 'daughter in law - not!' >Neil Crawford >neil at typog.co.uk For ages, I've heard the term "out-law", which does strike me as more elegant than "not-in-law", but almost always applied collectively ("my out-laws"). Also, I'd think either an out-law or a not-in-law would be more than a boy/girlfriend simpliciter, entailing living-with or a longterm, stable, committed (whatever) relationship. L From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 19:27:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:27:07 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 11:52 AM, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Thomas Paikeday > Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = > explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this > morning's = > Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed Michael = > Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. > > I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where it is = > used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." > > A very useful word, I think. > > TOM PAIKEDAY > www.paikeday.net > This is new to me. But I do recall "roommate-in-law," "girlfriend-in-law," and "boyfriend-in-law," all with the meaning of "a roommate's or housemate's significant other," from the '70's. -Wilson Gray From soma at CRYINGMIME.COM Wed Jan 5 19:51:11 2005 From: soma at CRYINGMIME.COM (Rob Swyter) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:51:11 -0700 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: > -------- Original Message -------- > > I had never heard of this at all, till my wife mentioned it, one time. > And, even after that, I had only the impression that it was just > something that she and her girl friends had made up as they approached > puberty back in the late '50's. But it turns out to be known by women > from all over the country. It's also the title and subject of a song by the group Lords Of Acid, on their album "Lust" released in 1990. It's a great dance song, i must admit, though the lyrics may be seen as crude by some. Rob From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 5 20:14:14 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:14:14 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:04 PM, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround > Subject: Re: geechee > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Some of the resources below may be of interest. > > Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. > (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words > "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I > had > grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll tell everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every word I say will be true." -Wilson Gray > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html > > > > "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on > amix > of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." > > African Languages > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html > > World Creoles > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html > > American Virgin Islands Creole > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html > > best, > Karen Ellis > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > The Educational CyberPlayGround > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ > > National Children's Folksong Repository > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > Hot List of Schools Online and > Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html > > 7 Hot Site Awards > New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, > USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 5 20:19:37 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:19:37 -0500 Subject: Question about online dictionaries Message-ID: Someone on another list that I subscribe to asks: This by way of asking if you have an opinion about dictionary.com (American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition plus [depending on the word] many other sources) vs m-w. Nothing like a print dictionary for sitting down and reading, but more and more I'm relying on the web. -------- Opinions, anyone? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 5 20:26:41 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:26:41 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" Message-ID: I sometimes refer to my daughter's live-in boyfriend of these last 10 years as my de facto son-in-law (as opposed to de jure). GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2005 2:19 pm Subject: Re: "daughter-not-in-law" > At 4:55 PM +0000 1/5/05, neil wrote: > >on 5/1/05 4:52 pm, Thomas Paikeday at thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Thomas Paikeday > >> Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >--> - > >> > >> Is the above word current enough to be used in print without = > >> explanation? I saw it on the "Facts & Arguments" page in this > morning's = > >> Globe & Mail ("Canada's national newspaper"). I e-mailed > Michael = > >> Kesterton who edits the page and he cops out saying it is a joke. > >> > >> I naturally Googled it first and there is one occurrence where > it is = > >> used and explained within brackets as "son's girl friend." > >> > >> A very useful word, I think. > >> > >> TOM PAIKEDAY > >> www.paikeday.net > > > >Shouldn't that be 'daughter in law - not!' > >Neil Crawford > >neil at typog.co.uk > > For ages, I've heard the term "out-law", which does strike me as more > elegant than "not-in-law", but almost always applied collectively > ("my out-laws"). > > Also, I'd think either an out-law or a not-in-law would be more than > a boy/girlfriend simpliciter, entailing living-with or a longterm, > stable, committed (whatever) relationship. > > L > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jan 5 23:07:32 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:07:32 -0500 Subject: "daughter-not-in-law" In-Reply-To: <6f393e6f7f24.6f7f246f393e@nyu.edu> Message-ID: >I sometimes refer to my daughter's live-in boyfriend of these last 10 >years as my de facto son-in-law (as opposed to de jure). > >GAT ~~~~~~~~~ I always rather liked the oxymoronic "illegitimate son-in-law." A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Jan 5 22:24:32 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:24:32 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: <200501051214142.SM01664@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry Wilson, Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic always brings up a lot of baggage. I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk for Linguists from all over the world interested in creole & dialect speakers. I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching elementary school. see: http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html best, karen > > Some of the resources below may be of interest. > > > > Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. > > (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words > > "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and I > > had > > grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. > >it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - >correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican >right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from >the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my >class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I >was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. >As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll tell >everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every >word I say will be true." > >-Wilson Gray > > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html > > > > > > > > "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on > > amix > > of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." > > > > African Languages > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html > > > > World Creoles > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html > > > > American Virgin Islands Creole > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html > > > > best, > > Karen Ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 6 03:19:48 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:19:48 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround > Subject: Re: geechee > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sorry Wilson, > > Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic > always brings up a lot of baggage. > I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk > for Linguists from all over the world > interested in creole & dialect speakers. > > I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching > elementary school. see: > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html > > best, > karen Don't worry. All is forgiven.;-) I find the topic fascinating. In fact, years ago, a friend of mine went so far as to suggest that none other than the late great Raven McDavid would be interested in the change in meaning of "geechee" in the course of its travels from, presumably, South Carolina to Texas. However, I never had the nerve to contact the great man about something that strikes me as rather trivial. To me, the fact that the word survived transportation to Texas is more interesting than the change in meaning that it underwent there. A lot of black Texan families, including the family of your humble correspondent, have their roots in South Carolina. Interestingly enough, "geechee" is a common household term that I learned as a child, but I know "Gullah" only as a literary term. FWIW, with reference to New Orleans and other locations in Louisiana, "creole" is pronounced as approximately "kree-awl" in my native version of BE. Justice Thomas is a whole 'nother story. But I'm more than willing to let that sleeping dog lie. -Wilson > >>> Some of the resources below may be of interest. >>> >>> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. >>> (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words >>> "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and >>> I >>> had >>> grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. >> >> it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - >> correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican >> right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from >> the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my >> class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I >> was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. >> As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll >> tell >> everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every >> word I say will be true." >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html >>> >>> >>> >>> "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on >>> amix >>> of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." >>> >>> African Languages >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html >>> >>> World Creoles >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html >>> >>> American Virgin Islands Creole >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html >>> >>> best, >>> Karen Ellis > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > The Educational CyberPlayGround > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ > > National Children's Folksong Repository > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > Hot List of Schools Online and > Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html > > 7 Hot Site Awards > New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, > USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jan 6 06:12:28 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 01:12:28 -0500 Subject: Mutant 'dirty' word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Recently I ran across (in a piece of modern Japanese, uh, literature) the word "imarachio" (written in katakana): the context suggested that this denoted a sex act. Of course Japanese "ferachio" = "fellatio" is quite common (often abbreviated "fera"), and virtually any English-language word related to sex is common in Japanese, judging from the Web. But what is "imarachio"? Could it be "irrumatio"? Casual Google using katakana indicates that it is indeed "irrumatio". But "irrumatio" should be "irumachio" in Japanese, shouldn't it? Or possibly "irumate[i]o" with subscripted "i" kana? Well, the approximate 'raw' Google numbers are: "irumachio" [katakana] 200 "iramachio" [katakana] 14,700 "imarachio" [katakana] 7,700 "iramate[i]o" [katakana] 400 For comparison, in Latin alphabet (obviously sampling a much larger segment of the Web): "irrumatio" 900 "irrumation" 1,200 Quick glance at a few Japanese-language sites (including Wikipedia) indicates that the sense is the same as in English, more or less, "irrumatio" indicating a greater degree of vigor on the part of the irrumator (or fellatee) by comparison with "fellatio". There are two linguistic questions here: (1) why "iramachio" (usually) instead of "irumachio"; (2) why "imarachio" (often) instead of "iramachio". Perhaps some of the scholars who are expert in Japanese can enlighten me. Meanwhile, here are my sophomoric ruminations. It is likely that "irrumatio" was adopted proximately from English and probably largely from written English, so perhaps the notion was that the second vowel would be that in the English word "rum", giving "iramachio". The mutation to "imarachio" is peculiar. My callow speculation: the activity is a form of fellatio ("ferachio") so its name should end in "-rachio". I wonder whether there is influence from Japanese "ima" = "now", i.e., "ima" + "[fe]rachio" = "now-[fe]llatio", an 'urgent' form of fellatio. Perhaps somewhere among those thousands of Japanese Web-sites these questions are answered. Am I missing something? "Irrumatio" was of course introduced on this list last year. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 14:16:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:16:26 -0500 Subject: down-talk Message-ID: "I don't have to down-talk Oklahoma," said Reggie Bush, USC's sophomore general yard-gainer. "Everyone saw the way we played, saw the way Oklahoma played. It's really pretty self-explanatory." http://cnnsi.com/2005/writers/stewart_mandel/01/04/mandel.orange/ "Down-talk" is an apparent inversion of "talk down (to)" on the model of "play down > downplay". (The sports usage may also be influenced by "talk trash > trash-talk".) Nothing in OED, HDAS, MWCD, etc., though HDAS does have "downmouth" (supposedly a blend of "downgrade" and "badmouth"). Here are some cites (beginning with "down-talking", ppl. a./vbl. n.): ------------ PMLA, Vol. 53, Supplement, 1938, p. 1316 (JSTOR) I am not sure that preference for such down-talking books is creditable to instructors. New York Times, Jan 8, 1961, Book Review, p. 38 (Proquest) Mr. Flesch, I am sure, is aware of the perils of down-talking and down-writing; a person of limited vocabulary ... not only does not mind the unfamiliar word, but is likely to be flattered by having it addressed to him. New York Times, Dec 12, 1965, p. F13 (Proquest) "If any characteristics are shared by a broad majority of this generation," he declared, "they are literacy, widened interest, faith in the future ... and an uncanny ability to spot phony, insincere, pompous, down-talking, fuzzy-minded approaches." New York Times, Feb 9, 1969, Magazine p. 44 (Proquest) More often it has that styleless, pyramidal dullness of the journalism school, and at times it is downright down-talking Daily Newsy ("Powell Appeal 'Goofed'"). Newark Advocate (OH), Jan 8, 1971, p. 2 (N-archive) We know they want to downtalk the bad and talk up the good to sell peace instead of the true meaning of communism. Valley News (Van Nuys, CA), Feb 8, 1973, p. 20 (N-archive) Anderson himself doesn't exactly "downtalk" his class of women, but he does try to explain things in housewife terms. Daily Intelligencer (Doylestown, PA), Sep 11, 1976, Supp. p. 7 (N-archive) After downtalking his backfield, Hellman calls his team an eager bunch who are improving every week. Daily Herald (Chicago, IL), Jun 1, 1982, Sec. 4, p. 1 (N-archive) "I wouldn't downtalk the Dodgers because they've been great to me." Los Angeles Times, Oct 21, 1990, p. 9 (Proquest) "Just giving my respect," White explained. "I'm not really gonna downtalk (UCLA). They are a good team, but we were better today." rec.music.synth, Mar 31, 1992 (Usenet) I wonder if these folks down-talking the plastic case and mushy keys of the K2000 have actually seen one. rec.boats.paddle, May 3, 1993 (Usenet) I don't know if it was just downtalking the competition or what. USA Today, Sep 9, 1993, p. 10C (Nexis) "I think he ought to keep his comments to himself," Givins said. "I see where he's down-talking the offense. I mean, you're not supposed to do that, because we're in the boat together. The boat has to float with everybody working, not just one side." Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), Oct 21, 1995, p. 1GD (Nexis) "I don't ever down-talk a team," King said, "but if we go out and play this week like were capable of doing, we have a chance to get back on track. The main thing is to get our confidence back." Courier Mail (Queensland, Australia), Apr 27, 1996, p. 21 (Nexis) No one, it seems, wants to downtalk the cattle industry -- or any other industry, for that matter. Houston Chronicle, June 23, 1996, SPORTS 2; p. 17 (Nexis) "I think there are going to be critics my entire career," Iverson said. "There's always going to be somebody who downtalks to me." Denver Post, Aug 27, 1997, p. D1 (Nexis) "Neil's an all-pro. Trezelle's learning the position, learning how to play in the NFL. So it wouldn't be fair to Trezelle. Not trying to down-talk him or anything, but he's still adjusting. I don't think he's ready for that." Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (WI), Aug 13, 1999, Sports p. 7 (Nexis) "They're not having the greatest time. But Wisconsin's been great recruiting out of D.C Everest. I'm not going to down-talk the program because two guys had trouble there." New Zealand Business, Sep 2000, p. 10 (Nexis) Most New Zealanders have now been totally turned-off by the sad-dog whine of businessmen down-talking the economy and green-grassing Australia. NZ Infotech Weekly (Wellington), Oct 24, 2000, p. 9 (Nexis) "There is always a risk that if enough people down-talk something, it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy." Electronic News, Feb 11, 2002, p. 8 (Nexis) This was happening while investors were stacking up their chips on the new B2B ventures that were down-talking traditional distributors as "dinosaurs." Columbus Dispatch (OH), May 12, 2002, p. 3D (Nexis) "I think me and Brandon are a little more agile," said Joe, a third-year sophomore-to-be from Westerville South. "We kind of get out of the backfield a little faster than Jamar. And we both have extremely good hands. That's not saying Jamar didn't have good hands, but ... hey, it's hard to downtalk Jamar." Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, May 6, 2003, p. 1 (Proquest) "I don't want to down talk companies," Millar said. "They have a tough enough time in the world market today and a slim profit margin." Paperboard Packaging, Apr 2004, p. 39 (Proquest) "Not to downtalk packaging printers, but they're rather down and dirty guys." Vanity Fair, Dec 2004, p. 370 (Nexis) "No, not necessarily, but because we share parenthood, we have this mutual respect for each other where we don't downtalk each other to Hailie to confuse her." ------------ --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Jan 6 15:50:04 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R Preston) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:50:04 -0500 Subject: Lansing State Journal claims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Herb, Local speakers and the media almost always agree that local speech is dying out. That's because 1) it isn't the same as it used to be (therfore, on the way out) and 2) they don't study it (as the MSU sociolinguistics team does, which is happy to announce Yooper live and well). Of course ADS didn't start WOTY as a copycat version of the Banished Words nonsense, although, as I recall early discussions, some of the impetus for WOTY may indeed have comne from a desire to counter prescriptivist bullshit in general and such lists in particular. Of course the Lansing State Journal, although they have consulted with us from time to time, is like every other media outlet. If the question is about chemistry, call a chemist; geology, call a geologist; language, call any dumass. This especially pisses me off since one of my hobbyhorses, as is well known, is folk linguistics, in which we try to take the comments about language by real people (i.e., nonlinguists) seriously, as reflections of the ethnographic record (and lots of other things we have wirtten about too often to list here [e.g., Niedzielski and Preston, Folk Linguistics, Mouton de Gruyter, 2000]). Linguistics in general is clearly the biggest Rodney Dangerfield of the sciences. dInIs Stahlke, Herbert F.W. writes: > The Lansing State Journal announced on 12/23 that UP English, > "Yooper-speak", is dying out. > > > > http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041223/O > PINION01/412230329&SearchID=73195139373021 > > > > The January 1 edition also claims that the 30-year-old Lake Superior > State University "List of Words Banished from the Queen's English for > Mis-Use, Over-Use, and General Uselessness" was imitated by the ADS > "Words of the Year". How long has the ADS been doing this, and did the > idea come from the LSSU list, as the LSJ claims? > > > > Herb > > > > > From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Jan 6 15:56:21 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:56:21 -0600 Subject: Texas Twang in the Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Today's Chicago Tribune (section 1, page 1!) has an article about work by Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery on Texas English ("TXE"). Part of the article discusses the Texan use of "y'all" used in the singular. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 17:19:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:19:24 -0500 Subject: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) Message-ID: OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and 1939... Los Angeles Times, May 23, 1938, p. III4/5 FRIED RICE (Nasi Goreng) As its Malay name implies, this consists basically of rice fried until it is brown. There is no uniform recipe by which other ingredients are determined; individual taste and chance as to ingredients available are determining factors, with the result that the dish is never the same in any two households. Usually small cubes of meat, fish or chicken are fried with the rice. Sliced onions and cocoanut may be included. Spices used include paprika and "sambal ulik" (very hot red pepper). Los Angeles Times, Sep 4, 1939, p. II2/8 At the Dutch East Indies restaurant I found a 21-course feast called Rijstaffel. "What," I inquired of the beturbaned brown man who brought the 16th offering, "is this tasty dish?" "Nasi goreng." "Thank you," I said, "and tell me, do you Javanese fear a Japanese invasion?" "Nasi goreng." Los Angeles Times, Sep 24, 1939, p. I11/2 A great many Javanese dishes would not be practical for home cooking, because so many spices are needed and must be so skilfully comibned. But one of the chef's special dishes is entirely practical and very, very good. He calls it fried rice nasi Goreng, and he has given us the following recipe. --Ben Zimmer From pds at VISI.COM Thu Jan 6 17:21:00 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:21:00 -0600 Subject: Bundt Pan Message-ID: One for Barry, et al. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5171410.html Bundt pan inventor H. David Dalquist dies Trudi Hahn, Star Tribune January 6, 2005 DALQ0106 H. David Dalquist, whose fledgling Scandinavian cookware company developed its most famous product, the Nordic Ware Bundt pan, with Jewish immigrant cooks, died Sunday of heart failure at his home in Edina. He was 86. About 1950, immigrant Jewish women asked if the company could make a specialty pan that could be found only in Europe. The women tried to explain the pan, used to make a pudding called kugel, by using a word that sounded like "bunt" and meant "a gathering of people," David Dalquist said. And the fluted, cast-aluminum design -- trademarked as a Bundt pan -- was born. When the pan was used in a winning entry in the 1966 Pillsbury Bake-Off, orders soared. In 1970, the Bundt name was licensed to Pillsbury for a line of cake mixes that fit the pan. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 6 17:40:47 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:40:47 -0500 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) Message-ID: VLOGGERS--1,760 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits? VLOGGING--8,720 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits ... I didn't see vlogger/vlogging on Double Tongued Word Wrester or our archives. If "blog" beats "tsunami" for word-of-the-year (even though it should have won in 2003), this is an interesting add-on. ... It sounds like a blog about Vlad the Impaler, or some German form of "flogging." ... ... NY METRO (free newspaper) MEDIA BEAT by David Tereshchuk 6 January 2004 pg. 10, col. 2 _"Vlogging" the tsunami_ (...) Infact, news divisions and cable channels have been scurrying after and taking images from "vloggers," the inevitable new coinage to describe Webloggers who incorporate video into their pages. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 17:42:51 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:42:51 -0500 Subject: nativize (1948) Message-ID: nativize = 'to adapt (a loan word) to the phonetic structure of the native language' (OED3 has 1970) 1948 _Language_ 24 (Oct-Dec) 340-1 Native Chiricahua words never begin with _l_ or _?_; these phonemes occur only medially and in final position. When, however, Chiricahua borrowed the Spanish words _loco_ 'crazy' and _rico_ 'rich', which were nativized as _l??g?_ and _???g?_ respectively, both _l_ and _?_ acquired new positions of occurrence, so far confined to these words and their several derived forms. (In Harry Hoijer's article, "Linguistic and Cultural Change") --Ben Zimmer From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 6 19:09:16 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:09:16 -0500 Subject: geechee Message-ID: Two scraps, for whatever they are worth. A minor jazz musician, a trombonist, of the 1920s, was Julius "Geechee" Fields, said to have been born in about 1903 and educated in the Jenkins Orphanage in Charleston. I see that DARE has a citation for Geechee from 1923, and probably Geechee Fields first appearance on the pages of history won't predate that. His high point came when he made some records with Jelly Roll Morton, in the late 20s. I read somewhere in a book of conversations with old jazz musicians that the speaker recognized in the "Charleston" dance a variation of an old southern dance that he knew as "geechee dancing". This might be in Hear Me Talkin to Ya, but perhaps I saw it elsewhere. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Jan 6 19:17:49 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:17:49 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: My wife's version, which was sung by nearly all the girls in the locker room, so she says) was We must, we must increase the size of our bust the bigger the better the tighter the sweater the boys depend on us I about fell off my chair the first time she sang that to me. My wife is about the LAST person in the world to know and sing such a song. The second to last person is her sister, who was able to sing the song with vigor only a few months ago. They were in school over 20 years ago. So, I guess it's a pretty well know little ditty. If my wife and her sister know it, everyone must! Fritz >>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 01/05/05 11:16AM >>> On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I remember it with "develop" instead of "increase", and probably from > the > sixties. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > I had never heard of this at all, till my wife mentioned it, one time. And, even after that, I had only the impression that it was just something that she and her girl friends had made up as they approached puberty back in the late '50's. But it turns out to be known by women from all over the country. Who'd a thunk it?! -Wilson Gray From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jan 6 19:24:19 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:24:19 -0600 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language Message-ID: I enjoyed the TV program about "talking American" yesterday and recognized the names of all the dialect consultants except for the newcomer to our field, Dennis Preston. :) The one discordant note was the comment by critic John Simon that descriptivists (i.e, people with any appreciation for slang) are, as best I remember, "the curse of their race." I've been researching the origin of slang for 25+ years and believe I have some insight into the subject that Mr. Simon does not. There's an interesting story behind "gung ho," for example, connected with a a WWII hero in the Pacific, Evans Carlson. There's likewise an interesting story behind "shyster" (I wrote two monographs about this topic). There's a wealth of very interesting information on Cockney rhyming slang. There's the subject of cant, etc. etc. etc. Most people who have seen my work regard it as praiseworthy. Sure, some errors appear here and there, which I then try to correct. But no one has yet seen fit to regard me as a curse of my race (or anything close to this) for engaging in such scholarly activity. Language may be regarded as a vast body of water, an ocean if you will, with rivers, streams, rivulets pouring into it. In English they include the contributions of numerous ethnic groups, sports, professions, etc. etc. etc. They all contribute to the richness of our language. The words and expressions of our language are intangible assets--facilitating and no doubt in many cases enabling--us to think and express ourselves. And they certainly include slang. There's a time and place for everything. Too much of anything is inappropriate. A tool may be used inappropriately, but that's not the fault of the tool.. Slang certainly *can* be used appropriately, even in seriously written, well-polished articles/newspaper editorials/etc. I've often noticed examples of this without bothering to jot down the information. Maybe I should start doing so now (others can join in) and sharing the information with ads-l. Meanwhile, if John Simon would like a sample of, say, my article on "gung ho," I'd be happy to provide him a complimentary copy. He need only ask me. If he'd like to engage in a dialogue, on the subject, I'm likewise very willing to oblige. Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian Research specialty: primarily Etymology of British/American slang Editor of monograph series _Studies in Slang_ (6 volumes thusfar; vol. 6 is co- edited with Barry Popik) University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 email: gcohen at umr.edu From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Jan 6 20:16:21 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:16:21 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: <200501051920231.SM01664@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hey Wilson & all, talkin about fascinating . . . did anybody watch the 3 hour TV document on PBS last night that focused on American English? PBS gives an English lesson By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times | January 5, 2005 In the linguistic travelogue ''Do You Speak American?" airing tonight at 8 on WGBH (Channel 2), Robert MacNeil investigates the modern adventures of our gloriously unruly tongue -- not merely what is said, but how it's said, both the words we use and the way we shape them. I thought it was a little long. . . and it did a pretty good job of explaining AAVE / regional dialect & Ebonics. I loved the effort made to explain once again what Labov, Baugh, Rickford and others are trying to teach the public and K12 educators which I totally agree with. I devote my area on linguistics toward that end! I also loved the way folklore - story tellers etc. were woven into the story - that was fantastic. FYI: see National Children's Folksong Repostiory http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html but I was majorly bummed out by the complete and total omission of 1) American Indian languages which contributed to the first words used - how could they have done that!!?? 2) Louisiana Creole and it's influence on everything 3) American Virgin Island Creole and it's existence as literature. Yes, the show was already 3 hours long . . . but they could have stolen minutes away from the hip hop, surfing dude, valley girl, snowboarding, roller blading and ya know like the rest of like the words,like, ya know, like, what i mean? like what about the netglishes, dude, ya know? spanglish, netglish, SABE - Standard American- British English OVE - Oral and Vernacular Englishes ICE - International Colloquial English which of course, must be invading everyone's language, like like like ya know dude? like i'm so sick of like . . . best, karen > > > > Sorry Wilson, > > > > Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic > > always brings up a lot of baggage. > > I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk > > for Linguists from all over the world > > interested in creole & dialect speakers. > > > > I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching > > elementary school. see: > > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html > > > > best, > > karen > >Don't worry. All is forgiven.;-) I find the topic fascinating. In fact, >years ago, a friend of mine went so far as to suggest that none other >than the late great Raven McDavid would be interested in the change in >meaning of "geechee" in the course of its travels from, presumably, >South Carolina to Texas. However, I never had the nerve to contact the >great man about something that strikes me as rather trivial. To me, the >fact that the word survived transportation to Texas is more interesting >than the change in meaning that it underwent there. A lot of black >Texan families, including the family of your humble correspondent, have >their roots in South Carolina. Interestingly enough, "geechee" is a >common household term that I learned as a child, but I know "Gullah" >only as a literary term. FWIW, with reference to New Orleans and other >locations in Louisiana, "creole" is pronounced as approximately >"kree-awl" in my native version of BE. > >Justice Thomas is a whole 'nother story. But I'm more than willing to >let that sleeping dog lie. > >-Wilson > > > > >>> Some of the resources below may be of interest. > >>> > >>> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. > >>> (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words > >>> "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, and > >>> I > >>> had > >>> grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. > >> > >> it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - > >> correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican > >> right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting from > >> the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my > >> class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." Additionally, I > >> was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop here. > >> As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll > >> tell > >> everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' every > >> word I say will be true." > >> > >> -Wilson Gray > >> > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree on > >>> amix > >>> of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." > >>> > >>> African Languages > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html > >>> > >>> World Creoles > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html > >>> > >>> American Virgin Islands Creole > >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html > >>> > >>> best, > >>> Karen Ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Jan 6 20:20:28 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:20:28 -0500 Subject: Obituary: David Shulman Message-ID: Obituary: David Shulman The Times of London January 06, 2005 David Shulman Literary detective who sniffed out the origins of many new words FROM 1879, when James Murray, the first editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, published his call for readers, the dictionary has had many eccentric contributors. These ranged from Dr Fitzedward Hall, the American recluse and Sanskrit expert, to William Chester Minor, the murderer and Broadmoor inmate, believed to be responsible for about 10,000 citations. The dictionary is still dependent on layman lexicographers for help in charting the unspooling vagaries of the English language, and one of its most dedicated such helpers was David Shulman. Shulman was a typical New York eccentric. Clad in an anorak and baseball cap and carrying a plastic bag stuffed with sheets of paper, he haunted the rare books room of the New York Public Library for half his life. A connoisseur of the colloquial, he would work his way through pulp novels, trade magazines and old copies of the Police Gazette, hunting for early uses, variant spellings or contrasting shades of meaning. A 300-page study of the earliest use of the term "hot dog " is in production, for which Shulman was a third responsible. Shulman's detective hobbies - he described himself as a "literary Sherlock Holmes" - were a matter of personal as much as professional pride. He once spent months ransacking old issues of Delicatessen, the defunct trade paper, to disprove the validity of a rare spelling of "pastrami" in Webster's. "I figure that patience will pay off in the long run," he once said, "and so far, it always has." He also claimed to have been responsible for the inclusion in the OED of the word "snowman", and to have found the earliest citation for "bagel". Shulman was born in the Bronx in 1912 and educated at City College. He then took work as a compiler of puzzles for the World Post and the New York Post, before - he said - working for the US Army as a cryptanalyst. In the 1950s he set up his own company to produce word puzzles, and in 1976 he published An Annotated Bibliography of Cryptography. Shulman was also an avid collector of American ephemera. He donated to the city library a vast collection of cryptographic material - including a prized 16th-century text on secret writing. In his eighties he passed over a mass of documents, ranging from a stack of 20,000 postcards to a ticket for the impeachment trial of the US President Andrew Johnson. He had no immediate family. His library survives him. David Shulman, etymologist, was born on November 12, 1912. He died on October 30, 2004, aged 91. <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 6 20:52:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:52:29 -0500 Subject: geechee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I missed it, dammit! But thanks for the heads-up. I'll watch for the re-run. -Wilson On Jan 6, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround > Subject: Re: geechee > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Hey Wilson & all, > > talkin about fascinating . . . > > did anybody watch the 3 hour TV document on PBS last night that > focused on American English? > > PBS gives an English lesson > By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times | January 5, 2005 > > In the linguistic travelogue ''Do You Speak American?" airing tonight > at 8 > on WGBH (Channel 2), Robert MacNeil investigates the modern adventures > of > our gloriously unruly tongue -- not merely what is said, but how it's > said, > both the words we use and the way we shape them. > pbs_gives_an_english_lesson/> > > I thought it was a little long. . . and it did a pretty good job > of explaining AAVE / regional dialect & Ebonics. > I loved the effort made to explain once again what > Labov, Baugh, Rickford and others are trying to teach the public > and K12 educators which I totally agree with. > > I devote my area on linguistics toward that end! > I also loved the way folklore - story tellers etc. > were woven into the story - that was fantastic. > > FYI: see > National Children's Folksong Repostiory > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > but I was majorly bummed out by the > complete and total omission of > > 1) American Indian languages which contributed > to the first words used - how > could they have done that!!?? > > 2) Louisiana Creole and it's influence > on everything > > 3) American Virgin Island Creole and > it's existence as literature. > > Yes, the show was already 3 hours long . . . > > but they could have stolen minutes away > from the hip hop, surfing dude, valley girl, snowboarding, > roller blading and ya know like the rest of like the words,like, > ya know, like, what i mean? like what about the netglishes, > dude, ya know? > spanglish, netglish, > SABE - Standard American- British English > OVE - Oral and Vernacular Englishes > ICE - International Colloquial English > which of course, must be invading everyone's language, like like like > ya know dude? like i'm so sick of like . . . > > best, > karen > > > >>> >>> Sorry Wilson, >>> >>> Didn't mean to bum you out. This topic >>> always brings up a lot of baggage. >>> I run a mailing list called CreoleTalk >>> for Linguists from all over the world >>> interested in creole & dialect speakers. >>> >>> I used to live on St. Croix, USVI teaching >>> elementary school. see: >>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/AboutUs/aboutus.html >>> >>> best, >>> karen >> >> Don't worry. All is forgiven.;-) I find the topic fascinating. In >> fact, >> years ago, a friend of mine went so far as to suggest that none other >> than the late great Raven McDavid would be interested in the change in >> meaning of "geechee" in the course of its travels from, presumably, >> South Carolina to Texas. However, I never had the nerve to contact the >> great man about something that strikes me as rather trivial. To me, >> the >> fact that the word survived transportation to Texas is more >> interesting >> than the change in meaning that it underwent there. A lot of black >> Texan families, including the family of your humble correspondent, >> have >> their roots in South Carolina. Interestingly enough, "geechee" is a >> common household term that I learned as a child, but I know "Gullah" >> only as a literary term. FWIW, with reference to New Orleans and >> other >> locations in Louisiana, "creole" is pronounced as approximately >> "kree-awl" in my native version of BE. >> >> Justice Thomas is a whole 'nother story. But I'm more than willing to >> let that sleeping dog lie. >> >> -Wilson >> >>> >>>>> Some of the resources below may be of interest. >>>>> >>>>> Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas [is/was] a Gullah speaker. >>>>> (12/14/00) issue of the New York Times in Thomas's own words >>>>> "When I was 16, I was sitting as the only black kid in my class, >>>>> and >>>>> I >>>>> had >>>>> grown up speaking a kind of a dialect. It's called Geechee. >>>> >>>> it's too bad that you had to bring up the man once lampooned - >>>> correctly, in my opinion - as "The yard-jockey of the Republican >>>> right." It's spoiled my whole day.;-) What a bringdown! Starting >>>> from >>>> the age of *13*, I, too, "was sitting as the only black kid in my >>>> class, and I had grown up speaking a kind of dialect." >>>> Additionally, I >>>> was also only one of seven blacks among 800 students. I'll stop >>>> here. >>>> As the blues song puts it, "Don't start me to talkin', 'cause I'll >>>> tell >>>> everything I know. I'll talk about [him] low-down an' dirty an' >>>> every >>>> word I say will be true." >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/GullahGeechee.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Gullah, a word derived perhaps from Angola, draws to some degree >>>>> on >>>>> amix >>>>> of West African languages like Ewe, Ibo and Yoruba." >>>>> >>>>> African Languages >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/aflang.html >>>>> >>>>> World Creoles >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/worldcreoles.html >>>>> >>>>> American Virgin Islands Creole >>>>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/vi.html >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> Karen Ellis > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > Guavaberry Books > > Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. > Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners > > National Children's Folksong Repository > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html > > The Educational CyberPlayGround > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ > > Hot List of Schools Online > Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters > http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html > > > 7 Hot Site Awards > New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, > USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jan 6 21:07:47 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:07:47 -0500 Subject: help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please, please, please - must we repost over and over again long messages that have already been posted here - by appending them to often brief fresh messages? I do not understand why some of us do that. Am I missing something? Thanks, Bethany From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 21:11:35 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: geechee Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:09:16 -0500, George Thompson wrote: >A minor jazz musician, a trombonist, of the 1920s, was Julius "Geechee" >Fields, said to have been born in about 1903 and educated in the >Jenkins Orphanage in Charleston. I see that DARE has a citation for >Geechee from 1923, and probably Geechee Fields first appearance on the >pages of history won't predate that. His high point came when he made >some records with Jelly Roll Morton, in the late 20s. HDAS has a 1905 cite for "geechee" (quoted in _Strange Ways and Sweet Dreams_ by Donald J. Waters). I'm not sure if that's taken from this reference, discussed in a 1906 _Journal of American Folklore_ review: Monroe N. Work, "Some Geechee Folklore," _Southern Workman_ 34 (Nov-Dec 1905): 633-34, 696-97. Bibliographic information from: Linda O. McMurry, "A Black Intellectual in the New South: Monroe Nathan Work, 1866-1945," _Phylon_ 41 (4th Qtr. 1980), p. 343. --Ben Zimmer From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Jan 6 21:52:33 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:52:33 -0000 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) In-Reply-To: <67C3B107.2110871C.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > VLOGGERS--1,760 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits? > VLOGGING--8,720 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits > ... > I didn't see vlogger/vlogging on Double Tongued Word Wrester or our > archives. It is here: http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-vlo1.htm in a piece dating from September. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 6 22:09:14 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:09:14 -0500 Subject: Texas Twang in the Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$4nbbun@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: I found the article on the Tribune's Web site. Very interesting! I'll buy the book, when it becomes available. Needless to say, I still haven't heard "y'all" used as a singular, but I'm willing to grant that that may be an age-related factor. Or it may be geographically constrained, given that none of the locations cited in the article is in East Texas. FWIW, I once worked for twelve years with a white colleague from Lubbock. He didn't speak with a Southern drawl. Rather, he sounded like a cowboy in a 'Forties horse opera. On the other hand, I've met Northerners who don't even know the meaning of the word "drawl," even though, in one case, the person, a Vermonter, had a step-family from North Carolina whose members spoke with a very noticeable drawl. So who knows what struck the reporter as being a drawl? -Wilson Gray On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:56 AM, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Texas Twang in the Chicago Tribune > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Today's Chicago Tribune (section 1, page 1!) has an article about > work by Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery on Texas English ("TXE"). Part of > the article discusses the Texan use of "y'all" used in the singular. > > Barbara Need > UChicago--Linguistics > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 6 22:52:38 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:52:38 -0500 Subject: Nasser-ism/ist/ite Message-ID: * Nasserism (OED3 1958) 1956 _Washington Post_ 22 July E7/3 Laqueur asks, "Can the West Live with Nasserism?," and argues that failure to understand Nasser and what he stans for prevents the shaping of a realistic policy for the Middle East. [citing article by Walter Z. Laqueur in _The New Leader_] 1956 _New York Times_ 19 Aug. E7/5 Nasserism achieved its most widespread support throughout the Arab world this week since its founder had seized control of the Suez Canal Company from Western hands. 1956 W.Z. LAQUEUR in _Midstream_ (Autumn), The Anatomy of Nasserism. [cited in _Am. Pol. Sci. Rev._ 51 (Mar. 1957), p. 270] * Nasserist, a. (OED3 1958) 1956 _Washington Post_ 4 Sep. 23/7 Throughout the Arab world, Nasserist fifth columns have feverishly been exploiting the psychological gains from the nationalization of the Suez Canal, in order to undermine governments and regimes recalcitrant to Nasser's leadership. * Nasserist, n. (OED3 Dec. 1958) 1958 _New York Times_ 5 Apr. 14/5 Now that Faisal is Saudi Arabia's real boss, Nasserists frame demands that he break ties with the United States and terminate our airbases at Dhahran. * Nasserite, a. (OED3 1958) 1957 _Washington Post_ 26 June A13/2 If Nasserite nationalism triumphs in the end, it will mean the destruction of all Western interests in Arab lands. * Nasserite, n. (OED3 1959) 1956 _Wall Street Journal_ 21 June 8/4 Its members would range from the leftist extremists in the British Labor party to the Nasserites of Egypt and the "neutralists" of India and Burma. [1957 _Odessa American_ (Texas) 28/6 Feb. (heading) Anti-Nasserite loses office.] [1957 _Zanesville Signal_ (Ohio) 26 Apr. 12/3 Meanwhile, and for months, leftists and pro-Nasserites had been infiltrating the army, the government and the schools.] --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 7 01:21:05 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:21:05 -0500 Subject: down-talk In-Reply-To: <25583.69.142.143.59.1105020986.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 09:16 AM 1/6/2005, you wrote: > "I don't have to down-talk Oklahoma," said Reggie Bush, USC's > sophomore general yard-gainer. "Everyone saw the way we played, > saw the way Oklahoma played. It's really pretty self-explanatory." > http://cnnsi.com/2005/writers/stewart_mandel/01/04/mandel.orange/ > >"Down-talk" is an apparent inversion of "talk down (to)" on the model of >"play down > downplay". (The sports usage may also be influenced by "talk >trash > trash-talk".) Nothing in OED, HDAS, MWCD, etc., though HDAS does >have "downmouth" (supposedly a blend of "downgrade" and "badmouth"). > >Here are some cites (beginning with "down-talking", ppl. a./vbl. n.): .... I think there are two different items here: (1) "talk down" (v.t.) = "disparage"/"derogate"/"bad-mouth"; (2) "talk down" (v.i., often with "to") = "speak in an inferior direction"/"speak in a condescending manner"/etc. -- Doug Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jan 7 01:30:30 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:30:30 -0500 Subject: Query: Please from Bitte in Ohio? Message-ID: I just got this query from a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer. Basically, he wants information about "please" being a calque for "bitte" in Ohio, a carryover, he says, from the German heritage of the area. It is used in place of "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon." The reporter's information is: Chuck Martin Cincinatti Enquirer cmartin at enquirer.com 513 768 8507 Thanks, Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 7 02:11:31 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:11:31 -0600 Subject: Slang use in serious writing, #1: "goose" Message-ID: The purpose of this collection is to counter the suggestion advanced recently that slang by its very nature contributes to the decline of language and more broadly a country's cultural level. Au contraire! Slang adds to the richness of language and often appears even in serious writing. Here's the first example, which I've selected at random: Slang "goose" in: Wall Street Journal, Feb. 3, 1992, p.A10/4-6 Title of article: "GOOSE THE MONEY SUPPLY." --- The article--a sober discussion of monetary policy--is by Martin Feldstein, identified as former chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers and a professor of economics at Harvard. # # # From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 7 02:18:44 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:18:44 -0500 Subject: Query: Please from Bitte in Ohio? Message-ID: Is this what in DARE is described as an interrogative exclamation... Chifly N Central, esp OH. No ety is given. However, consult Prof. John R. Costello (NYU) about its "calkedness." Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION Lexik at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Thursday, January 06, 2005 at 8:30 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Query: Please from Bitte in Ohio? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I just got this query from a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer. >Basically, he wants information about "please" being a calque for >"bitte" in Ohio, a carryover, he says, from the German heritage of the >area. It is used in place of "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon." > >The reporter's information is: > >Chuck Martin >Cincinatti Enquirer >cmartin at enquirer.com >513 768 8507 > >Thanks, > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 03:43:15 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:43:15 EST Subject: "When she was bad" (1871) Message-ID: BAD SHE WAS HORRID--818 Google hits, 1,560 Google Groups hits ... I originally posted on this several years ago, perhaps in the old archives. This poem was thought to have been written by Longfellow, but there's never a good date attached. It's not attributed to anyone here. Note the extra verses!...Don't know if Fred has it. ... ... ... The Ohio Democrat (New Philadelphia, Ohio) 22 September 1871 pg. 1, col. 4: ... _That Little Girl._ ... ... There was a little girl And she had a little curl, Right in the middle of her forehead, When she was good, She was very, very good, And when she was bad she was horrid. ... She went up-stairs, And he parents unawares, Was a-looking out of the window; She stood on her head, In her little trundle-bed, And nobody near to hinder. ... Her mother heard the noise, And she thought it was the boys, A playing in the empty attic; But she ran up-stairs, And caught her unawares, And spanked her most emphatic. ... ... _http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1345.html_ (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1345.html) ... Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882) There was a little girl _1_ (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1345.html#1) There was a little girl, 2 Who had a little curl, 3 Right in the middle of her forehead. 4 When she was good, 5 She was very good indeed, 6But when she was bad she was horrid. Notes 1] Longfellow's second son Ernest says of this poem: "It was while walking up and down with his second daughter, then a baby in his arms, that my father composed and sang to her the well-known lines .... Many people think this a Mother-Goose rhyme, but this is the true version and history" (15-16). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 04:00:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:00:44 EST Subject: Bundt Pan Message-ID: Yes, I saw this, too. See the ADS-L archives for "bundt." There is a "bundt kuchen" entry in the famous SETTLEMENT COOKBOOK (1903), so the word "bundt" had been familiar for some time before this "bundt pan" guy. ... ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark BUNDT Goods and Services IC 021. US 013. G & S: CAKE PANS. FIRST USE: 19510000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19510000 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 72241796 Filing Date March 24, 1966 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0826340 Registration Date March 28, 1967 Owner (REGISTRANT) NORTHLAND ALUMINUM PRODUCTS, INC. CORPORATION MINNESOTA 3245 RALEIGH AVE. MINNEAPOLIS MINNESOTA 55416 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19870328 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From pds at VISI.COM Fri Jan 7 06:38:26 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:38:26 -0600 Subject: Bundt Pan In-Reply-To: <20050107040047.A0E554C20@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 1/6/2005 11:00 PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Yes, I saw this, too. See the ADS-L archives for "bundt." There is a "bundt >kuchen" entry in the famous SETTLEMENT COOKBOOK (1903), so the word "bundt" >had been familiar for some time before this "bundt pan" guy. I should have mentioned the several "bundt cake" posts (some by Barry) in the archives. The Dahlquist obit left me wondering what "European" or "Jewish" terms "sound like" 'bunt'. The German "Bund" (bundle, band, alliance) seems likely. However, a "band" pan is a very different device, in my experience, from the Nordic Ware bundt pan. When I think band pan (don't know what cooks actually call it), I think of a pan for cheese cake whose side can be expanded for easy removal. And since "bundt" antedates the pan by decades, and since the cakes described in the archives would not benefit from either a band pan or a Nordic Ware pan, perhaps it comes from some other source. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA http://www.visi.com/~pds From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 7 12:27:55 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:27:55 -0500 Subject: "When she was bad" (1871) In-Reply-To: <155.4784a319.2f0f5f53@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > BAD SHE WAS HORRID--818 Google hits, 1,560 Google Groups hits > ... > I originally posted on this several years ago, perhaps in the old archives. > This poem was thought to have been written by Longfellow, but there's never a > good date attached. It's not attributed to anyone here. Note the extra > verses!...Don't know if Fred has it. This is an uncommonly interesting quotation, attributed to a major literary author but origins shrouded in mystery. In 1946 an article in the Papers of the Bibliographical Society of America traced it to a pre-1870 broadside entitled "Wrong Side Up. A Poem.", which may have been British. Other earliest known versions were in the Reveille, Salem, Mass., 21 Dec. 1870, and Balloon Post, Boston, 11 Apr. 1871. Longfellow is said to have composed a version of the poem and sung it to his young daughter in the 1850s, but there is no contemporaneous documentation of that. I would welcome any further discoveries by Barry or others. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 7 14:49:31 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:49:31 -0600 Subject: PBS Program: Do You Speak American? Message-ID: Any chance anyone out there video taped this program on PBS when it aired January 5? I got the last 2 hours, but missed the first one on the Northeast and Black English. I planned to use it for my upcoming American Dialects college course and our PBS isn't rebroadcasting it any time soon. It was rebroadcast at 1 AM this morning, but our PBS was off the air by then (small town stations!) I checked ordering info for PBS' tapes and they're all backordered by about 1 month. If anyone did tape this, I'd be happy to pay for postage and a VHS cassette if you'd send me a copy of hour 1. Please e mail me off list if you can help. Thanks! Patti Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Patti -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 7 15:58:44 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:58:44 -0800 Subject: PBS Program: Do You Speak American? In-Reply-To: <41DEA17B.3060704@netscape.net> Message-ID: A VHS copy is also available for sale from http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1920128. DVD is also available. Of course, it costs more than the home-taped version. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Patti J. Kurtz > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 6:50 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: PBS Program: Do You Speak American? > > > Any chance anyone out there video taped this program on PBS when it > aired January 5? I got the last 2 hours, but missed the first one on > the Northeast and Black English. I planned to use it for my upcoming > American Dialects college course and our PBS isn't rebroadcasting it any > time soon. It was rebroadcast at 1 AM this morning, but our PBS was off > the air by then (small town stations!) I checked ordering info for PBS' > tapes and they're all backordered by about 1 month. > > If anyone did tape this, I'd be happy to pay for postage and a VHS > cassette if you'd send me a copy of hour 1. > > Please e mail me off list if you can help. > > Thanks! > > Patti Kurtz > Assistant Professor, English > Minot State University > Minot, ND 58707 From al_milan1 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 7 16:10:47 2005 From: al_milan1 at YAHOO.COM (lanang lanang) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:10:47 -0800 Subject: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) Message-ID: I am Indonesian, to be more specific I am Javanese. What Mr. ZImmer wrote is correct about nasi goreng: there's no standard way of making nasi goreng and what ingredients are used. However, there are certain exact similarities among those differences: you must grind all ingredients (spices), like cabai, salt, onion, garlic, before you star frying the rice, and the result of grinding here is "sambel ulek" (not sambel ulik") :). And most people will use soy sauce (kecap) and egg. Most chinese restaurants in Indonesia consider nasi goreng as their main food to sell. Besides all the ingredients I mentioned earlier, the chinese in Indonesia will put (optionally) shrimp, sausage, meat balls (we call it here bakso), squid, ham, lamb, even petai or pete (small look-like-nut vegetable and can cause smell in your mouth and urine after consuming it; this is loved by many lower middle people[and some upper middle, but they wouldn't admit it :p ]). hopefully this info will benefit our understanding about fried rice... A. Lanang Benjamin Zimmer wrote: OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and 1939... Los Angeles Times, May 23, 1938, p. III4/5 FRIED RICE (Nasi Goreng) As its Malay name implies, this consists basically of rice fried until it is brown. There is no uniform recipe by which other ingredients are determined; individual taste and chance as to ingredients available are determining factors, with the result that the dish is never the same in any two households. Usually small cubes of meat, fish or chicken are fried with the rice. Sliced onions and cocoanut may be included. Spices used include paprika and "sambal ulik" (very hot red pepper). Los Angeles Times, Sep 4, 1939, p. II2/8 At the Dutch East Indies restaurant I found a 21-course feast called Rijstaffel. "What," I inquired of the beturbaned brown man who brought the 16th offering, "is this tasty dish?" "Nasi goreng." "Thank you," I said, "and tell me, do you Javanese fear a Japanese invasion?" "Nasi goreng." Los Angeles Times, Sep 24, 1939, p. I11/2 A great many Javanese dishes would not be practical for home cooking, because so many spices are needed and must be so skilfully comibned. But one of the chef's special dishes is entirely practical and very, very good. He calls it fried rice nasi Goreng, and he has given us the following recipe. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 7 18:09:35 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:09:35 -0500 Subject: help! In-Reply-To: <20050107050207.27585B26B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Bethany writes: >>>>> Please, please, please - must we repost over and over again long messages that have already been posted here - by appending them to often brief fresh messages? <<<<< Seconded, bravo, and amen! -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 7 18:19:16 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:19:16 -0500 Subject: help! Message-ID: My only reservation is that I find it helpful when I'm jumping into a thread with little background on what's been said over the previous weeks--often with long intervals between postings. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Friday, January 07, 2005 at 1:09 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: help! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Bethany writes: > >>>>> >Please, please, please - must we repost over and over again long messages >that have already been posted here - by appending them to often brief >fresh messages? > <<<<< > >Seconded, bravo, and amen! > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 7 18:36:29 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:36:29 -0500 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) In-Reply-To: <20050107050207.27585B26B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael Quinion refers us to his September article on this word at http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-vlo1.htm That article also contains the following paragraph: >>>>> An extension of blogging is to collect, display and store all types of digital information about one's life in a single place for one's family and friends to access. Such a collection has been called a lifelog, though trendwatching.com recently dubbed it life caching. One pundit sourly remarked that it was an excellent way of proving to everyone how boring one's life really is. <<<<< Such a hobby, or obsession, was predicted/described by Sir Arthur C. Clarke in his SF novel _Imperial Earth_, set about 300 or 400 years in the future if memory serves. Its practitioners wear miniaturized apparatus that automatically makes a video log of everything they do. I think they were called "tapeworms" (surely an anachronistic label!). -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 7 18:46:38 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:46:38 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050107050207.27585B26B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I mentioned this to my wife last night. She turned to me with an astonished look and asked disapprovingly, "Who did YOU ever learn that from?!" Anyway... the version she knew was: I must I must I must develop a bust. I better I better So I can wear a sweater. This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 19:08:21 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:08:21 EST Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1957-59) Message-ID: I remember this from the late 1950s (1957-59). My ex-wife and her girlfriend Nadine used to say it while exercising--but only "We must, we must, we must increase my bust." In a message dated 1/7/05 10:46:59 AM, mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU writes: > I mentioned this to my wife last night. She turned to me with an astonished > look and asked disapprovingly, "Who did YOU ever learn that from?!" > > Anyway... the version she knew was: > > I must > I must > I must develop a bust. > I better > I better > So I can wear a sweater. > > This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine > exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 7 19:29:03 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:29:03 EST Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages Message-ID: Yes. I don't quite see the problem with repeating the messages, as long as the new comments are at the TOP and I don't have to scroll to the bottom to find out what the new comment is. In a message dated 1/7/05 10:19:44 AM, barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM writes: > My only reservation is that I find it helpful when I'm jumping into a > thread with little background on what's been said over the previous > weeks--often with long intervals between postings. > > Regards, > David > > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 7 19:30:21 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:30:21 -0500 Subject: Brooklyn Eagle Online Message-ID: Folks: I recently received the following message from a librarian at the Brooklyn Public: "Hi, George. When we last worked together at the Reference Desk, you had very some nice things to say about Brooklyn Public Library's Eagle online. As you know, this online resource only spans (roughly) the nineteenth- century. BPL is currently applying for a grant to fund the cost of digitizing the remainder of the Eagle's run, through the mid-twentieth century. "In light of the enthusiasm you expressed, would you be willing to write a short letter of support for this project? The project manager thinks one or two such testimonials could enhance our prospects for obtaining funding. Thanks very much for whatever help you might be able to give." He forwards to me the following letter from the person at the BPL in charge of this project: "As you know we are in the process of putting together a grant proposal seeking funding to digitize 1903-23 issues of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. If the project budget is approved by the library administration, we will submit the grant proposal before February 1st. The announcement of grant recipients is mid-September 2005. If your contact at NYU is willing to write a letter of support on letterhead that would be very helpful. The letter should include a statement as to why this time period (1903-23) would be of great interest to NYU library patrons. "The letter should be sent to me [Susan Benz] (my address below) but addressed to: Ms. Martha Crawley Program Officer Institute of Museum and Library Services 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20506 Susan Benz Manager of Digital Library Services - EDO Brooklyn Public Library Grand Army Plaza Brooklyn, NY 11238 718.230.2750 s.benz at brooklynpubliclibrary.org So: Those of you who have used this resource should write a letter addressed to Crawley but mailed to Benz at the BPL. The deadline it seems would be Friday January 21 or early the following week, to allow the BPL to meet their deadline of Tuesday February 1. If this stage of the project is funded, it will still leave the last 30 years or so of the paper to be digitized. The Eagle went out of business in I think 1954. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 7 20:10:38 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:10:38 -0500 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron's suggestion seems to be a reasonable compromise to me. For reasons known only to the gremlins of e-mail, I don't always receive the initial post and it's nice to be able to scroll down to see what the original question was. -Wilson Gray On Jan 7, 2005, at 2:29 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes. I don't quite see the problem with repeating the messages, as > long as > the new comments are at the TOP and I don't have to scroll to the > bottom to find > out what the new comment is. > > In a message dated 1/7/05 10:19:44 AM, barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM writes: > > >> My only reservation is that I find it helpful when I'm jumping into a >> thread with little background on what's been said over the previous >> weeks--often with long intervals between postings. >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 7 20:38:59 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:38:59 -0500 Subject: reposting Message-ID: I guess we just have dfferent mindsets about receiving the same long post 3-4 or more times. It drives me crazy. For one thing, I occasionally want to file a bit of information - but not if it is contained in a lengthy post containing re-posted text that I do not want to file - at least not again! Or perhaps many of you have such huge mail quotas that you never think about volume. Is that it? Surely we can do brief summarizing when we are returning to old topics. In fact, I think that makes our perspectives clearer. Bethany From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jan 7 21:10:58 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:10:58 -0500 Subject: reposting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, January 7, 2005 3:38 PM -0500 "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > I guess we just have dfferent mindsets about receiving the same long > post 3-4 or more times. It drives me crazy. For one thing, I occasionally > want to file a bit of information - but not if it is contained in a > lengthy post containing re-posted text that I do not want to file - at > least not again! > > Or perhaps many of you have such huge mail quotas that you never think > about volume. Is that it? > > Surely we can do brief summarizing when we are returning to old topics. In > fact, I think that makes our perspectives clearer. I'm with you. I find it very difficult to follow massively top-posted discussions, and tend to just delete messages without reading them. And I still read email at home via dialup, and so would prefer not to get a lot of lengthy messages with no new content to them. -- Alice Faber Haskins Labs, 270 Crown St, New Haven, CT, 06511 T: (203) 865-6163 x258 F: (203) 865-8963 faber at haskins.yale.edu From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 7 21:19:01 2005 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:19:01 -0800 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050107134144.R18506@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: We -- San Francisco Bay area c. 1965+ -- used "the chant" while doing arm fling exercises. On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:46:38 -0500, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > I mentioned this to my wife last night. She turned to me with an astonished > look and asked disapprovingly, "Who did YOU ever learn that from?!" > > Anyway... the version she knew was: > > I must > I must > I must develop a bust. > I better > I better > So I can wear a sweater. > > This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine > exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Jan 8 03:05:08 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:05:08 -0500 Subject: Amer. Dialect Soc. Word of the Year Announced Message-ID: The American Dialect Society has just finished its vote for the 2004 Words of the Year. The overall Words of the Year were "red state, blue state, and purple state," which together represent the American political map. For winners in other categories, other nominated words, vote tallies, and contact information, see our press release: http://www.americandialect.org/2004_WOTY_Final_Vote_.pdf Grant Barrett Vice President of Technology and Communication (Provisional) American Dialect Society gbarrett at worldnewyork.org' http://www.americandialect.org/ From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Jan 8 03:08:24 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:08:24 -0600 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: My wife (Catholic HS Decatur, Ill, 1965) remembered only "We must, we must, we must increase our bust" with no following lines, but as accompaniment to an isometric exercise of pressing the hands against eachother at bust level. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" Anyway... the version she knew was: I must I must I must develop a bust. I better I better So I can wear a sweater. This would have been in the 1960s, and she associates it with genuine exercises which would've, at least, developed upper body strength. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 04:48:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:48:46 -0500 Subject: Amer. Dialect Soc. Word of the Year Announced Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:05:08 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >The American Dialect Society has just finished its vote for the 2004 >Words of the Year. The overall Words of the Year were "red state, blue >state, and purple state," which together represent the American >political map. Interesting choice! "Purple state" is of course the one that's new to 2004. Some thoughts on the origins of "red state"/"blue state"... When Bill Safire discussed "red" and "blue" states in his Oct. 3, 2004 "On Language" column, he wrote: "Perhaps because color television was not universal until a generation ago, electoral maps were not consistent until the campaign of the first President Bush against Bill Clinton." Though the usage of "red state" and "blue state" was first popularized in 1992, the blue/red color-coding on electoral maps has been used at least since 1908. In July of that year, the Washington Post printed a color supplement with a map indicating Republican-leaning states as red and Democratic-leaning states as blue. Here is the Post's announcement: WILL PRINT POLITICAL MAP The Post to Issue a Folder Supplement Next Sunday. Democratic, Republican, and Doubtful States, as Now Estimated, to Be Designated by Different Colors. Washington Post, Jul 22, 1908 The States conceded by the best judges to be Republican are printed in red, the Democratic in blue, and the doubtfuls in yellow. The Territories, which have no presidential vote, are shown in green. It's conceivable that the Post's electoral map helped to firm up the association of Republicans with "red" and Democrats with "blue". Before that time, there was evidently some confusion over color-coding the parties. For the 1900 general election, the Chicago Tribune, then a Republican organ, made plans to signal returns on election night by setting off colored fireworks (or "bombs", as they were called) that would be visible around the city. Republican wins would be signaled by blue bombs and Democratic wins by red bombs. But in the Nov. 6, 1900 edition, the Tribune published an item saying that they were abandoning these plans. An unnamed Democratic newspaper (most likely the Chicago Times, the Tribune's Democratic rival) had announced it would signal Republican wins with red bombs and Democratic returns with blue bombs. The Tribune decided to drop the plan entirely for color-coded fireworks to avoid confusing Chicagoans. In this case it seems that each party organ wanted to claim to be "blue" and paint the other party as "red". I would conjecture that the Tribune was following contemporary European usage ("blue" = right-leaning, "red" = left-leaning). But the paper's Democratic rivals wanted to appropriate the positive connotations of "blue" (as in "true-blue") for the Democrats, at a time when the color red was becoming associated with revolutionaries and anarchists. By embracing the color blue, Democrats may have been able to distance themselves from the "reds" of the day. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 8 05:00:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:00:41 EST Subject: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life" (1968); WOTY Message-ID: WOTY: I'm a bit disappointed. "Red/Blue State" is basically four years old and was popularized in 2000. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ... The Los Angeles Times digitization is still stuck on December 31, 1968. ... I'll go into the new year with an improved "today is the first day of the rest of your life," asked by Fred Shapiro. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _1,500 Mark Synanon's 10th Anniversary_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513451132&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN P&TS=1105159166&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 13, 1968. p. G2 (1 page): ... A musical program was scheduled to open a five-night run at 8:30 p.m. Its title: "Today Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Reno Evening Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vDnP9fyY5urBxX8UAWEcscD0gelMGSNu0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, October 16, 1968 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Nevada_ ( http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+today+is+the+first+ day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) ...residents entitled "TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE" IS being.....OF racISm on THE face OF THE earth.' TODAY he was transferred to a new job.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2p0JwF3XqwDE6iFFOhju8VhZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, August 01, 1968 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+you r+life+AND) ...a special way, for TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Celebrate.....Exces-j instrument flight in vISual TODAY IS a very special DAY for you. It.. Pg. 10, col. 1: We'll bet you never thought of it this way, but... Today is a very special day for you. It is full of a special significance that you should be aware of by treating today in a special way, for... Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Celebrate it by making some special someone happier because of you...and because of today. JOHN P. TIMMERMAN HEATING--COOLING--FURNACE CLEANING ... ... ... ... (ADS-L ARCHIVES) In a message dated 2/27/2004 4:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." > > Sam (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 4/2/1969 ...miles an hour. Remember toDAY is THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. See you next.....Carthagena, Ohio, on FriDAY, celebrated his FIRST solemn high mass in THE Church OF THE.....A 77-degree reading made SunDAY THE warmest DAY so far this year. On THE same date in.....Winter will be "But Have Everlasting LIFE" from THE series "THE Eternal Gospel.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 02, 1969 671 k Gettysburg Times - 3/5/1969 ...To Our Patrons GOOD EVENING Enjoy THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Voi; 67, No. 54.....has never before harbored LIFE. It's THE FIRST time that man could photograph and.....1800, when Robert Harper, founder OF THE FIRST newspaper in Adams County, put it on.....AP Aerospace Writer SPACE (AP) In THE FIRST spaceship transfer by Americans, James.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 05, 1969 783 k BOX IN UPPER RIGHT CORNER, FIRST PAGE: GOOD EVENING Enjoy today--it's the first day of the rest of your life. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 8 05:14:38 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:14:38 EST Subject: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life" (1968); WOTY Message-ID: (I sent this at exactly midnight and it still doesn't show up. I'll re-post it, and you'll immediately got it twice, as usual--B.P.) ... WOTY: I'm a bit disappointed. "Red/Blue State" is basically four years old and was popularized in 2000. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ... The Los Angeles Times digitization is still stuck on December 31, 1968. ... I'll go into the new year with an improved "today is the first day of the rest of your life," asked by Fred Shapiro. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _1,500 Mark Synanon's 10th Anniversary_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513451132&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN P&TS=1105159166&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 13, 1968. p. G2 (1 page): ... A musical program was scheduled to open a five-night run at 8:30 p.m. Its title: "Today Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Reno Evening Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vDnP9fyY5urBxX8UAWEcscD0gelMGSNu0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, October 16, 1968 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+today+is+the+first+ day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) ...residents entitled "TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE" IS being.....OF racISm on THE face OF THE earth.' TODAY he was transferred to a new job.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2p0JwF3XqwDE6iFFOhju8VhZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, August 01, 1968 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+your+life+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+today+is+the+first+day+of+the+rest+of+you r+life+AND) ...a special way, for TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Celebrate.....Exces-j instrument flight in vISual TODAY IS a very special DAY for you. It.. Pg. 10, col. 1: We'll bet you never thought of it this way, but... Today is a very special day for you. It is full of a special significance that you should be aware of by treating today in a special way, for... Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Celebrate it by making some special someone happier because of you...and because of today. JOHN P. TIMMERMAN HEATING--COOLING--FURNACE CLEANING ... ... ... ... (ADS-L ARCHIVES) In a message dated 2/27/2004 4:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes: > 30 July, 1969 for "first day of the rest of your life." > > Sam (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Gettysburg Times - 4/2/1969 ...miles an hour. Remember toDAY is THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. See you next.....Carthagena, Ohio, on FriDAY, celebrated his FIRST solemn high mass in THE Church OF THE.....A 77-degree reading made SunDAY THE warmest DAY so far this year. On THE same date in.....Winter will be "But Have Everlasting LIFE" from THE series "THE Eternal Gospel.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, April 02, 1969 671 k Gettysburg Times - 3/5/1969 ...To Our Patrons GOOD EVENING Enjoy THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Voi; 67, No. 54.....has never before harbored LIFE. It's THE FIRST time that man could photograph and.....1800, when Robert Harper, founder OF THE FIRST newspaper in Adams County, put it on.....AP Aerospace Writer SPACE (AP) In THE FIRST spaceship transfer by Americans, James.. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Wednesday, March 05, 1969 783 k BOX IN UPPER RIGHT CORNER, FIRST PAGE: GOOD EVENING Enjoy today--it's the first day of the rest of your life. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 06:52:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:52:47 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) Message-ID: A usage no doubt repulsive to the John Simons and Robert Fiskes of this world is the equating of "nauseous" with "nauseated" (rather than the earlier sense of "nauseating"). The OED3 draft entry dates this sense of "nauseous" to 1949, but surely we can do better... -------- 1885 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 14 Apr. 2/5 I saw the long and white helmeted troops march in apparent comfort on their way, while I swayed to and fro and was bumped up and down and oscillated and see-sawed from side to side until I became nauseous and had exhausted my profane Arabic vocabulary in the vain attempt to induce "Daddles" to consider my comfort more than his own. -------- 1903 _Coshocton Daily Age_ (Ohio) 16 Sep. 1/1 Her voyage through the spirit land made her somewhat nauseous and was not the most pleasant journey imaginable, but she is on the high road to recovery now. -------- 1906 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 7 July 7/3 (advt.) When you feel nauseous and dizzy, don't take brandy or whisky -- try Nerviline. -------- 1927 _Chicago Tribune_ 9 May 10/3 This lasts ten or fifteen minutes, and then I have a terrible headache and I feel nauseous. -------- 1933 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Sep. II6/1 (advt.) The salts that do not make you nauseous. -------- The 1885 cite is from an unnamed piece entitled, "In the Camps at Korti: Terrible March across the Heated Sands of the Soudan" ("Daddles" is the name of the writer's camel). So perhaps British (or Commonwealth) sources antedate American ones for this usage (despite the OED's "orig. U.S." tag). Here is the earliest cite I could find expressing concern over the proper use of "nauseous" (from Frank Colby's column, "Take My Word For It!"): -------- 1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 8 Nov. II7/7 From a recent issue of Look: "Stefan became nauseous." Could that be right? ... Yes, if the author intended to say that Stefan was loathsome; so disgusting as to cause nausea. Obviously he meant to write: Stefan became nauseated. -------- --Ben Zimmer From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sat Jan 8 08:31:41 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:31:41 EST Subject: Urban Slang Message-ID: Urban slang dictionary that is written by the visitors to the website who post their definition of urban slang terms: Urban Dictionary is a slang dictionary with your definitions. Define your world http://www.urbandictionary.com/ Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 08:55:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:55:26 -0500 Subject: Erin McKean on Chicago Public Radio Message-ID: An interview with Erin McKean was broadcast yesterday on Chicago Public Radio's show Eight Forty-Eight, on the occasion of Verbatim's 30th anniversary. ADS WOTY was mentioned at the top of the program (the "news hook" was that the word was being selected as the program aired). http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/audio_library/848_rajan05.asp Audio link: http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/DWP_XML/848/2005_01/848_20050107_0935_4273/segment_181937.ram --Ben Zimmer From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jan 8 14:11:29 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:11:29 -0500 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: <33080B86-60E8-11D9-AF93-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 03:10:38PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > Ron's suggestion seems to be a reasonable compromise to me. For > reasons known only to the gremlins of e-mail, I don't always receive > the initial post and it's nice to be able to scroll down to see what > the original question was. People interested in this subject should Google "top-posting" for a wide variety of discussions on the topic. Most people dislike top-posting and prefer _edited_ posts with the new comments interspersed. Most of the ADS-L comments in favor of top-posting are arguing that it helps people remember the chain of discussion. In fact, this is an argument _against_ what is often practiced here. I, for one, do not find it helpful to see the comment "Yes!" or "Me too" or "I'm sure I heard that in Nebraska in the 1960s" at the very top of a long and discursive quoted message. If it's really necessary to quote the entirety of a previous message, or several such, by all means do so. But usually responses are relevant to only a small part of an earlier message. Trimming this message down to its relevant parts, and adding one's response in the appropriate place, not only ensures that the sequence is clear and the background is known (whether because one has forgotten the original discussion, not received it because of mail gremlins, or whatever), but that readers know what the new post is actually about. And that bandwidth--network, storage, or perceptual--isn't wasted. Jesse Sheidlower OED From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jan 8 16:51:56 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:51:56 -0800 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: <20050108141129.GA26579@panix.com> Message-ID: > Trimming this message down to its relevant parts, and adding > one's response in the appropriate place, not only ensures that > the sequence is clear and the background is known (whether > because one has forgotten the original discussion, not > received it because of mail gremlins, or whatever), but that > readers know what the new post is actually about. And that > bandwidth--network, storage, or perceptual--isn't wasted. I'd like to echo Jesse's comment and add that since this list is archived, if one is joining the conversation late, it is relatively easy to go to the archive and catch up on the entire thread. I do this all the time if when I discover a thread that I've been ignoring holds interest for me. And trimming the message and adding the response at the appropriate location is extremely helpful when looking at messages in the archive. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 8 18:45:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:45:33 -0500 Subject: Grant Barrett on Boston Public Radio Message-ID: Another public radio interview broadcast yesterday-- Grant Barrett, live on the scene at the ADS meetings, interviewed on WBUR-Boston's "Here and Now": http://here-now.org/shows/2005/01/20050107_13.asp Audio link: http://realserver.bu.edu:8080/ramgen/w/b/wbur/herenow/2005/01/hn_0107.rm?start=30:29 --Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 8 21:52:29 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:52:29 -0500 Subject: repeating portions of earlier messages In-Reply-To: <20050108050144.8C4ACB2851@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Ron wrote: >>>> Yes. I don't quite see the problem with repeating the messages, as long as the new comments are at the TOP and I don't have to scroll to the bottom to find out what the new comment is. <<<< "Scroll to the bottom" implies that you receive and read each message individually. I have found it difficult to deal with the continual interruptions to my workday and subscribe with the digest option, receiving 24 hours' worth of posts each day just after midnight. I have to scroll down, down, and down further, watching for the end of the "> > > >" (and so on in varying lengths) at the left margin, with special attention required if I want to read the contributions of those who insert a line or two of their own comment here and there amid 400 lines of multi-generation quote. I am not the only person in the world who finds top-quoting difficult to read; see below. In my own posts, I try to - quote enough to provide context, but no more - arrange multiple generations of quotes, if any, in threaded order - and attribute all quotes to their originators. This takes a bit of time and effort, of course, but I consider it worthwhile, making my posts (I hope) easier and clearer to read, and doing unto my fellow listies as I would like them to do unto me. mark by hand \\\\\ http://lists.netisland.net/archives/plug/plug-2004-06/msg00119.html You've misread my purpose. The reason I harp on this is that top-replies are qualitatively less useful for the community. I've watched quite a few email conversations go horribly askew, including people requesting information that was already presented in the reply trail, because there was too much useless information there. I've also, far too often, gone through the experience of asking someone a series of questions and getting a top-replied "Yes" back (or something similar). These are infuriating problems that are a direct result of top-replies. You'll note that I did also respond to the question at hand at the time. I included the top-reply complaint because answering that simple question had required me to go through the top-reply spaghetti to figure out what was going wrong. *Especially* in the case that you're asking for help from technically skilled Unix-y people, top-replies are a Bad Idea. > As a courtesy to others I will cut off non-relevant portions of the > message below the top quote. Answers to ordered lists will be responded > to in-line with a note at the top of the message signifying this. I think that's a reasonable approach, but I think it's more work for you than just replying infix the way traditional MUAs (that is, pre-Outlook) default to doing (and the way I am here). (I note that you didn't actually trim the useless quoting from the message I'm replying to here.) [...] \\\\\ http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html What is the reason to quote at all? Consider it. It shouldn't be to allow people to scroll down to see all earlier discussions. If the news client is a bit smart, fetching the older articles from the server should be just as easy as to "scroll down". If a thread goes forth and back some times and earlier quotes accumulate, an article including all those quotes might get five-ten times larger than a posting without quotes, this wastes bandwidth and hard disk space. Therefore, IMHO, no quotes are far better than a posting at the top of all old quotes. Ot the other hand, it's very easy to lose the context in a posting without any quoting at all. Letting the reader understand the context is very important for easy reading. Therefore there should always be some few lines reminding the reader about what kind of discussion he is into. If a person has to scroll down to read the new information, there are probably too much quotes in the article. A person that is good to use quotes never quotes more than some few lines at once. If I can't find the right lines to quote, I often replace all the quotes with a short summary of the discussion so far. Actually I can agree that it is more annoying when complete articles are quoted with a small "yes" or "no" at the bottom than to read a top-post. There is also another very important aspect with quoting that shouldn't be underestimated; the quotes should tell what parts of an article you're replying to. Often you have some viewpoints about some parts of an article, and other viewpoints about other parts of it. The best way to solve that is to quote a little bit, come with some comments, quote some more, and then write some comments to that as well. This can't at all be done in a top-posting. [...] From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sat Jan 8 20:39:10 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:39:10 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: This was new to me, and I have three sisters. My wife didn't hear it at school, but much later (1980s) heard this version as recollected high-school girl folk lore: I must I must I must increase my bust. The bigger The better The tighter the sweater. She remembers a Gidget movie (1960s) where girls at a slumber party did hands-together-push-pull isometric exercises, but without the IBTC chant. Se?n Fitzpatrick Does "Thou shalt not steal", etc. on the court house create a hostile work environment for lawyers and politicians? http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sat Jan 8 21:58:34 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:58:34 -0500 Subject: Not to say Message-ID: Here's an idiom question. I started to write "the Catholic, not to say Christian, doctrine" and realized I am not sure which way NtS swings. What is the import of the somewhat UKish expression "not to say", as in "A, not to say B..."? Is it different from the neutral "not to mention"? 1.. Inclusive aside; "not to mention", "my argument could be even stronger", e.g., "the Christian, not to say legal, prohibition" 2.. Intensification; "a fortiori"; e.g., "the Christian, not to say Catholic, doctrine" 3.. Categorical inclusion; "it goes without saying"; e.g., "the Christian, not to say Catholic, doctrine" 4.. Categorical expansion; "I am speaking more narrowly than I need to; e.g., "the Catholic, not to say Christian, doctrine" Se?n Fitzpatrick Does "Thou shalt not steal", etc. on the courthouse create a hostile environment for lawyers and politicians? http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 00:02:28 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:02:28 EST Subject: Vertical game Message-ID: I don't recall ever having heard the phrase "vertical game" (meaning long passes in American football) before this year's NFL season, when the commentators on the Philadelphia Eagles seemed to use it in every game. However, I found what purports to be a 1999 Web site URL http://www.badgermaniac.com/99footballpreview.html which contains "If a quarterback emerges who can do anything to give the Badgers a vertical game in the three important conference matchups, the Badgers could shock the nation and go to the Sugar Bowl or at least return to the Rose Bowl." Interestingly, "vertical game" also appears in "real" football: URL http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3129330.stm "Football has gained considerable popularity in Japan, but even after last year's World Cup finals, it's a fair bet that local fans were not prepared for the vertical game. But in Osaka, 12 storeys above the ground, football is defying gravity. The players are attached to rubber cords of the kind usually used by bungy jumpers, and so is the ball. The players already had a head for heights - one of the pair, 43-year-old Hisanori Kizu, cleans windows on Osaka skyscrapers. "I've bungy-jumped a few times so this doesn't bother me at all and it's actually a lot of fun," he said. Adidas hope the campaign will build on momentum created by the 2002 World Cup, jointly-hosted by Japan and South Korea. The players hope to take the vertical game to another country where football is still a newcomer - the United States." - ("vertically" challenged) James A. Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 06:25:30 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:25:30 EST Subject: Smelly, Stinky Tofu (1989); Original Vincent's Sauce (1904) Message-ID: Just got through watching the Jets game. They just barely won in OT. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- STINKY TOFU ... STINKY TOFU--5,070 Google hits, 223 Google Groups hits SMELLY TOFU--3,470 Google hits, 57 Google Groups hits ... ... ... Wednesday's New York Times did a nice piece on my favorite food--tofu. So, on Saturday, I go to the New York Public Library, try to order the oldest "tofu" book (1975), and find it's--all together now--off-site. ... The Times article mentioned "stinky" tofu. Jen Chung (the Gothamist "queen of the blogosphere") said she was served "smelly tofu" over Christmas. ... OED ("miserable on food") has neither "stinky" nor "smelly." OED is beaten by the Wikipedia! Google hits seem to favor "stinky" over "smelly," by a nose. ... The dish is from Shanghai, but is popular throughout Taiwan. NYU closed early (intersession) and I didn't check the Factiva database. ... ... ... _http://www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php_ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php) ... _Jen Chung: Christmas Lunch in Hong Kong_ (http://www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php) ... tofu. The tofu is called "smelly tofu," and honestly, it does smell awful, like worse than a smelly shoe, closer to a toilet. You ... www.gothamist.com/archives/ jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php - 22k - Jan 8, 2005 - _Cached_ (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_LJqGIUsprgJ:www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php+"smelly+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.gothamist.com/archives/jen/2004/12/christmas_lunch.php) ... First, for appetizers (it's like antipasti - you choose a little bit of everything), we had mung beans, deep-fried sardines, ham, and some deep-fried fermented tofu. The tofu is called "smelly tofu," and honestly, it does smell awful, like worse than a smelly shoe, closer to a toilet. You can smother it with hoisin and/or hot chili sauce to neutralize it a bit, but I gave up after two bites and gave it to my brother. The sardines and beans, though, were great. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Tofu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu) ... tofu. One famous Shanghaiese delicacy is stinky tofu (Chinese:???, literally: stinky tofu), which smells like rotten eggs. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu - 21k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VjyTmtqILB0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu+"stinky+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _NY Times Article on Tofu_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/AR-Ne ws/browse_frm/thread/b85b1da9a9f9af3c/7e24c7ab225f38af?q="stinky+tofu"&_done=/groups?q= "stinky+tofu"&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+t o+Search&&d#7e24c7ab225f38af) ... And at the new location of Spicy and Tasty in Flushing, Queens, you can order a plate of "stinky tofu," a long-fermented Taiwanese specialty that is to plain ... _AR-News_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/AR-News) - Jan 5, 7:07 pm by Chris Holbein - 1 message - 1 author ... _Stinky Tofu lovers_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.taiwan/browse_frm/thread/e63617d09e69178c/b6a3ec7b3ce1d69b?q="stinky+tofu"&_done=/grou ps?q="stinky+tofu"&start=0&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Sea rch&&d#b6a3ec7b3ce1d69b) There are different ways to eat stinky Tofu these days in Taiwan. Like steam stinky tofu is also delicious. I heard there is a restaurant ... _soc.culture.taiwan_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.taiwan) - Mar 3 1997, 1:36 am by User996487 - 35 messages - 16 authors ... _Stinky Tofu (chou doufu) (was: Yucky Foods)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_frm/thread/c7ffdc297d879536/f0ffd889ffccca08?q=" stinky+tofu"&_done=/groups?q="stinky+tofu"&start=0&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1 &&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f0ffd889ffccca08) Stinky tofu surely doesn't smell like a sewer. If you think it does, you're not remembering right what a sewer smells like. OK, you ... _rec.food.cooking_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking) - Jun 16 2002, 4:47 am by Adilah_K - 33 messages - 26 authors ... _Stinky tofu (Chinese Cheese)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.recipes/browse_frm/thread/6dd2fe581db5dcac/c557c2e5ee1ff675?q="stinky+tofu"&_do ne=/groups?q="stinky+tofu"&start=0&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Bac k+to+Search&&d#c557c2e5ee1ff675) hello, i have read an article about stinky tofu (Chinese cheese). But I have never try it before. By any chance does anybody have the receipe. ... _rec.food.recipes_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.recipes) - Apr 29 1993, 2:48 pm by Geo & Nan - 1 message - 1 author ... _China's safty and Taiwan_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.taiwan.republic/browse_frm/thread/513126b28027cda5/0fd95dae27172fbe?q="stinky+tofu+|+tof &_done=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=stinky+tofu+|+tof as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mi nd=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=8&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1997&safe=off&&_doneTi tle=Back+to+Search&&d#0fd95dae27172fbe) ... or Lim Giong. Not too sure about 'Stinky Tofu' either :) James C. Oh boy. Stinky Tofu originated from Shanghai area. The block-heads ... _alt.taiwan.republic_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.taiwan.republic) - Feb 7 1994, 3:00 pm by Hank - 12 messages - 9 authors ... _Most interesting food you've eaten?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.travel/browse_frm/thread/ad4018def2c51340/6b19ec3177c90257?q="stinky+tofu+|+t of&_done=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=stinky+tofu+|+t ofas_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_ mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=8&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1997&safe=off&&_done Title=Back+to+Search&&d#6b19ec3177c90257) As far as disgusting smells are concerned, anyone who has ever been to Taiwan will long remember the smell of Chou dou-fu (Stinky Tofu). ... _rec.travel_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.travel) - Jul 2 1993, 9:43 am by Ed Chen - 45 messages - 42 authors ... _Cheese_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.asian.american/browse_frm/thread/428d69e0c5a25b95/3e34711b9b2b8a4f?q="smelly+tofu"&_done=/groups?q ="smelly+tofu"&start=50&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back +to+Search&&d#3e34711b9b2b8a4f) ... fan ever since. I think a fairly accurate analogy can be drawn between cheese and the Taiwanese delicacy: smelly tofu. For the gourmand ... _soc.culture.asian.american_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.asian.american) - Jul 20 1992, 4:33 am by Peter Wung - 52 messages - 30 authors ... _street vendors_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.hongkong/browse_frm/thread/f3b5c810cd5bec20/a3d42070815b147b?q="smelly+tofu"&_done=/group s?q="smelly+tofu"&start=50&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=B ack+to+Search&&d#a3d42070815b147b) Does anyone know the secrets to making "smelly" tofu? No offense, but: .... But I don't like bittermelon either. I am serious about finding the answer. ... _soc.culture.hongkong_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.hongkong) - Sep 25 1989, 4:47 pm by Forrest Chang - 8 messages - 6 authors ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) No "stinky" or "smelly" hits. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) No :stinky" or "smelly" hits. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- ORIGINAL VINCENT'S SAUCE; FRENCH ONION SOUP ... _http://www.originalvincents.com/our_illustrious_history.html_ (http://www.originalvincents.com/our_illustrious_history.html) ... Following the Historic turn of the century, ending the Illustrious Gay 90's, Giuseppe and Carmela Siano established the now World Famous Vincent's Clam Bar, in 1904, named after their son. The sidewalk clam bar was located at the corner of Mott and Hester street in little italy, New York City, Where it still flourishes today, serving succulent varieties of Italian Seafood. It is the original home of _Vincent's Sauce_ (http://www.originalvincents.com/ordersauce.html) . It was also in 1904 that Carmala Siano introduced her secret old world recipe for the internationally celebrated _Vincent's Sauce_ (http://www.originalvincents.com/ordersauce.html) . Many have tried to imitate her secret ingredients and processing unsuccessfully! ... ... COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON FRIDAY NIGHT?--Artisanal Fromagerie & Bistro, 2 Park Avenue at 32nd Street. Metro (which claims 500,000 free circulation and is in a heated war with am New York) did a Friday article on the best French onion soup in New York. I tried the celebrated Artisanal. It's known for its cheeses and the soup was very good, but nothing too special. The fish & frites was good. ... WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY? Soup-'n-Burger on Broadway at Astor Place, near NYU. The French onion soup here was not mentioned in the Metro article. It's half the price ($4) of Artisanal. Not bad. Still, nothing is as good as La Bonne Soup on West 55th Street. ... Original Vincent's, 119 Mott Street. Vincent's proudly declares 1904-2004. Although it's been in Little Italy for a century, it's nothing too special. I ordered a plate of cheese ravioli with "medium hot" Vincent's Sauce. The worst part of the dish was the sauce! It was still too hot, and it didn't have much of anything in it. Bleh! I've had Italian prostitutes make better tomato sauce! However. don't say that when you're in Vincent's! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 07:07:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:07:48 -0500 Subject: narrowcast(ing) (1924) Message-ID: * narrowcasting, n. (OED3 1932) 1924 _Los Angeles Times_ 6 Jan. II9/7 Just so soon as we destroy that freedom and universality of radio and confine it to only those who pay for it -- those who pay for the service, in other words -- just so soon as we make of broadcasting 'narrowcasting,' we destroy the fundamantal of the whole situation. 1924 _New York Times_ 19 May 15/1 "We will, in other words, arrive at a system of 'narrow-casting' instead of broadcasting," the inventor said. * narrowcasting, a. (OED3 1985) 1928 _New York Times_ 17 Feb. 20/5 Is it better business to lease narrowcasting sets, which also consume alternating current, than to sell broadcasting receivers? * narrowcast, a. (OED3 1937) 1924 _Los Angeles Times_ 6 Jan. II9/7 And, therefore, I believe very definitely that broadcasting as constituted today is commercially sound, and that it will remain so in the future, although there may be selective methods and narrow-cast methods which will do no harm. * narrowcast, v. (OED3 1972) 1928 _New York Times_ 17 Feb. 20/5 Temptation to narrowcast is doubly strong because of the half million radio sets now in use which draw their energy not from batteries but from the lighting circuit and which consume each about $10 worth of alternating current a year. * narrowcast, n. (OED3 1977) 1932 _New York Times_ 20 May 3/4 The "narrow cast" was conducted through a beam of light from the control of the dirigible. ... Among those to talk over the "narrow cast" was the commander of the ship, F. T. Berry. 1933 _Lincoln Star_ (Nebraska) 15 July 5/5 Narrowcasts have been successfully performed for twenty miles in the east, but radio station transmitters have been used. * narrowcaster (OED3 1980) 1930 _Los Angeles Times_ 22 Oct. II4/1 Radio will have to learn that its offerings go to fans and folks on both sides. Else broadcasters will be narrowcasters. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 07:36:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:36:46 -0500 Subject: Vertical game Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:02:28 EST, James A. Landau wrote: >I don't recall ever having heard the phrase "vertical game" (meaning long >passes in American football) before this year's NFL season, when the >commentators on the Philadelphia Eagles seemed to use it in every game. >However, I found what purports to be a 1999 Web site >URL http://www.badgermaniac.com/99footballpreview.html >which contains "If a quarterback emerges who can do anything to give the >Badgers a vertical game in the three important conference matchups, the >Badgers could shock the nation and go to the Sugar Bowl or at least >return to the Rose Bowl." Here's a 1986 cite: New York Times, Aug 31, 1986, p. S1 "He's a guy who can catch the ball in the vertical game very well," Hackett said. "He's a hand catcher, he can jump and leap and catch it. He looks smooth running the routes, he flows into it very easily." That's a quote about Herschel Walker from Paul Hackett -- then the Dallas Cowboys' pass offense coordinator, now the Jets' offensive coordinator (whose dubious play-calling continues to give Jets fans conniptions). And here's an earlier NY Times cite, from a 1981 column by NBC Nightly News producer Henry L. Griggs complaining about the incomprehensible commentating on that year's Super Bowl broadcast: New York Times, Feb 1, 1981, p. S2 Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 08:11:48 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:11:48 EST Subject: Vertical Game/Offense (1981) Message-ID: Damn that Ben Zimmer! Beat me by seconds! ... "Vertical game" was widely used in the 1980s. It was made famous by the Oakland Raiders. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Fumbles at the Mike Fill the Super Bowl_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=114175448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName= HNP&TS=1105255139&clientId=65882) By HENRY L. GRIGGS Jr.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 1, 1981. p. S2 (1 page) ... Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." ... _Raiders: Predictability Put Foe in Predicament; It Was All Predictable Except for the Result _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=127823082&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clien tId=65882) By Paul Attner Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 24, 1984. p. C1 (2 pages) Page C4: Because of the wind, even Plunkett hardly went downtown in the Raiders' vertical offense. ... _Molded in Al Davis's Image; Power Behind Raiders Makes Them Fit His Image _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=120451189&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10& VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clientId=65882) By MICHAEL JANOFSKYEL SEGUNDO, Calif.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1984. p. S1 (2 pages) Page 6: Wide receivers need, above all, speed because of the Raiders' "vertical" offense. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Times Recorder _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2vQ7G4ztzPygqjFQKcVwK+OUNB3I6gXroA==) Monday, March 11, 1974 _Zanesville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:zanesville+vertical+offense) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+offense) ...who don't play too much used USC's VERTICAL OFFENSE against our top eight.....the rest of the way. Boston's OFFENSE never got off the ground in the. ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2kmnfD/KalHCRKlAZVmURN0jbtL4V7NJxQ==) Wednesday, August 20, 1986 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+vertical+game) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+game) ...Sam Rutigliano used to talk about the "VERTICAL GAME." It's still the quickest.....The loss broke Cleveland's four GAME winning streak and also cost the.. ... _News Record _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEt2YujW4u1fjTKMOvmC6JeT0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, September 08, 1989 _North Hills,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_hills+vertical+game+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+vertical+game+AND) ...geles Raiders to return to their famed VERTICAL GAME the high- powered offense.....downfieid for then opt for the short GAME if else fails Denver coach Dan.. ... _Capital _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2kqKKdP1sBkRsXev0C5pLYL+HTeu2vtXIkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, November 06, 1994 _Annapolis,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+vertical+game) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+vertical+game) ...pro football's best left tackles. The VERTICAL GAME became horizon- Schroeder.....Thomas Smith says of the first Jets' GAME. is going to be a huge GAME for not.. ... ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ("vertical game" + "passing") ... _QB situation Bites_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy/browse_frm/thread/290fde870eafff76/1d910026baf6d03e?q="vertical+game"+ passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=U TF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#1d910026baf6d03e) ... Almost every one but Det. had a big passing game against NE. ... I would tend to lean toward Hoss just because the "vertical" game has to eventually get going. ... _rec.sport.football.fantasy_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy) - Oct 6 1994, 6:26 am by mch... at nwu.edu - 2 messages - 2 authors ... _LYNX game reviews_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/7679ffb5cb7ba9b0/0d06d95fdcec98ec?q="vertical+game"+passin g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c 2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0d06d95fdcec98ec) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _rec.games.video.atari_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Oct 3 1994, 6:37 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author ... _Freakishly Overdeveloped Geeks 0_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/3aa48a895e532e7a/62cb993e5522ec60?q="verti cal+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d& hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#62cb993e5522ec60) ... Is Curtis Conway *really* as bad as he looked last year? If so, the Bears don't have a passing game. ... AFC West: 1) LOS ANGELES. The vertical game is back. ... _rec.sport.football.pro_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Sep 3 1994, 2:19 pm by Arthur Hlavaty - 1 message - 1 author ... _Lynx game reviews_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/fb2927b25dec8025/be96dfb6998260c9?q="vertical+game"+passin g&_done=/gro ups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#be96dfb6998260c9) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _rec.games.video.atari_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Aug 3 1994, 4:34 pm by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author ... _Hostetler_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/606d84cee736e1bc/29a5ffa8c5e539bb?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done= /groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1& &_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#29a5ffa8c5e539bb) ... A typical passing play looked like this: 1. Snap, drop back. 2. Check first receiver. ... BTW, teams need more than excellent receivers for a good vertical game. ... _rec.sport.football.pro_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul 14 1994, 4:52 pm by Peter Simko - 16 messages - 12 authors ... _Sleeper Teams_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/4068de60e2505966/e24a0a060478a2b1?q="vertical+game"+passing&_ done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2co ff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#e24a0a060478a2b1) ... consensus) the raiders need a running game to go with that "vertical game" This I ... I mean Hose-stuffer should have been one of the NFL passing leaders...instead ... _rec.sport.football.pro_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul 12 1994, 6:15 pm by SAD... at psuvm.psu.edu - 45 messages - 31 authors ... _LYNX Game Reviews_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/d0932d73638565f7/27af040ded79cca4?q="vertical+game"+passin g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c 2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#27af040ded79cca4) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _rec.games.video.atari_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - May 31 1994, 11:01 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author ... _Why soccer?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/e3750208eba1efb6/b39310263d5880aa?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done=/gr oups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_d oneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b39310263d5880aa) ... the vertical game took hold in this century - (thank ND and Knute Rockne?) - that American Football took on its current _general_ character as a passing game ... _rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) - May 21 1994, 2:06 pm by Simon K Boocock - 11 messages - 9 authors ... _Lynx Reviews (all of them. LONG file)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/7ec1245048b46150/f95ef1eb801f920a?q="vertical +game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl= en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f95ef1eb801f920a) ... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., for the ... Extra room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. ... _alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Nov 7 1993, 9:37 am by Kevin Dangoor - 1 message - 1 author ... _Football and Pinball Jam are out_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/58c222cd8afae3da/de972e7b51265ec6?q="vertical+game "+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie =UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#de972e7b51265ec6) ... 1) The Pinball Jam is a vertical game that scrolls up and down to keep you the ... Passing plays are a bit better, except that interceptions are fairly arbitrary. ... _alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Sep 19 1992, 8:09 am by Michael L. Kaufman - 5 messages - 4 authors ... _Lynx reviews! HOCKEY, HYDRA, LYNX CASINO_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/2fe4429cb8d36ac3/9302c1ff98c4a297?q="vertic al+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=160&scoring=d&h l=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#9302c1ff98c4a297) ... HOCKEY 1-2 players, horizontal & vertical game Atari Corp ... Player selection (with OPTION 1) and puck-passing (with button B) are managable, but shooting for the ... _alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Jun 26 1992, 3:15 pm by Robert A. Jung - 1 message - 1 author From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 08:22:28 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:22:28 -0500 Subject: Smelly, Stinky Tofu (1989); Original Vincent's Sauce (1904) Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:25:30 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >The Times article mentioned "stinky" tofu. Jen Chung (the Gothamist "queen >of the blogosphere") said she was served "smelly tofu" over Christmas. >... >OED ("miserable on food") has neither "stinky" nor "smelly." OED is beaten >by the Wikipedia! Google hits seem to favor "stinky" over "smelly," by a >nose. [...] >Does anyone know the secrets to making "smelly" tofu? No offense, but: >.... >But I don't like bittermelon either. I am serious about finding the >answer. >... >_soc.culture.hongkong_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.hongkong) - Sep 25 1989, >4:47 pm by Forrest Chang - 8 messages - 6 authors For earlier references try searching on "smelly/stinky bean curd"... -------- Christian Science Monitor, June 5, 1980, p. 12 (Nexis) During a two-week tour of China with a group of 15 American chefs and food writers, I sampled Chairman Mao's favorite -- Stinky Bean Curd -- at the Fire Palace Restaurant in Changsha. -------- Washington Post, Sep 9, 1984, p. C5 (Proquest) He can decide for himself if he wants to order abalone with bone goose feet, live shrimp, jellyfish skins, candied sweet and sour lamb slices, fish lips with crab roe, jellied chicken blood, stinking bean curd or red-stewed elephant trunk, all dishes listed in his book's glossary. -------- Newsgroup: net.cooks Subject: Re: Cheese and Chinese food (the Mongol connection) Message-ID: <235 at tekig4.UUCP> Date: Thu, 29-Aug-85 13:56:12 EDT In some parts of China, cheese cultured from soybean, called stinky bean curd, is highly appreciated. -------- The 1984 Post article refers to the late Jim McCawley's classic guidebook, _The Eater's Guide to Chinese Characters_ (Univ. of Chicago Press), now back in print after 20 years. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226555925/ --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 09:24:51 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:24:51 EST Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea Message-ID: STINKY, SMELLY TOFU ... Thanks to Ben Zimmer for using "bean curd" to track this to 1980. It's often transliterated as "dofou," which is why I thought "tofu" would be used. But I think it's going to be earlier than 1980 in that 1975 book that was offsite: ... (CATNYP) ... Call # _JFM 96-713 NYPL has: Vol. 1 only._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cJFM+96-713/cjfm+++++96++++713/-5,-1,0,E/2browse) Author _Shurtleff, William, 1941-_ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aShurtleff,+William,+1941-/ashurtleff+william+1941-/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title The book of tofu / William Shurtleff & Akiko Aoyagi ; illustrated by Akiko Aoyagi. Imprint Brookline, Mass. : Autumn Press, c1975- LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS _OFFSITE_ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/screens/offsitehome.html) _ JFM 96-713_ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/c+++JFM+96-713/cjfm+++++96++++713/-5,-1,,E/browse) v. 1 AVAILABLE Location Humanities-Genrl Res Descript v. : ill. ; 28 cm. Note Bibliography: v. 1, p. 317-318. Includes index. Contents v. 1. Food for mankind. ... ... ... ... >From the Los Angeles Public Library menu collection: ... ... "SURF AND TURF" (not that name, but the item) ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/15053-inside4.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/15053-inside4.jpg) ... ... MAYFLOWER "THE OPTIMIST'S CREED" ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/h/rb01195-front.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/h/rb01195-front.jpg) ... ... ... ... ITALIAN ICED TEA ... I noticed this at Original Vincent's, 119 Mott Street. There are 114 Google hits. It's like "Long Island Iced Tea." ... (GOOGLE) ... _Italian Iced Tea Cocktail Recipe_ (http://cocktails.about.com/library/recipes/blitalianicedtea.htm) ... Search. Cocktails / Beer. Italian Iced Tea. 1 1/4 oz. Sweet Vermouth, Ginger Ale. Serve over ice, Garnish with a lemon twist. Back to the Recipe List. ... cocktails.about.com/library/ recipes/blitalianicedtea.htm - 20k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EjKwSVv6m-oJ:cocktails.about.com/library/r ecipes/blitalianicedtea.htm+"Italian+iced+tea"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:cocktails.about.com/library/recipes/blitalianicedtea.htm) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 09:47:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:47:57 -0500 Subject: flea-flicker (1911) Message-ID: On the Jets' second possession, their offensive coordinator, Paul Hackett, called a flea flicker. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/sports/football/09jets.html A flea-flicker is "any of various deceptive football plays in which the ball is quickly transferred between players (as by a lateral) before or after a forward pass" (W10). HDAS relies on W10 for a first cited date of 1927. The HDAS cites, Proquest, and Google all suggest that the "flea-flicker" was invented by Bob Zuppke, who coached Chicago's Oak Park High School team before becoming head coach at the University of Illinois in 1913. http://www.coachz.net/B.Zuppke.htm Zuppke will always be known for having one of football's greatest minds. He invented the huddle, the flea-flicker, the screen pass, the pass-block, the long snap and a new defensive position now known as the 'linebacker.' Earliest cites from the Trib: ------- 1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 19 Nov. C1/6 All the intricate formations Coach Zuppkee [sic] ever evolved were used with effect. The famous "flea flicker," "whoa-back," and other uncanny formations worked with much success. ------- 1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 3 Dec. B2/1 A famous "flea flicker" went bad but Oak Park recovered. ------- 1913 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 2 Nov. B3/5 Oak Park's "Ghee Haw," "Flea Flicker," and "Flying Dutchman" plays were a revelation to the effete east and Everett was beaten 32 to 14. The "Ghee Haw," which received its name as a pun because originally it centered around Ghee, present quarterback at Dartmouth, was a double pass and then a forward pass, while the "Flea Flicker" called for three passes before the long forward pass. ------- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 09:55:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:55:10 EST Subject: "Stinking bean curds" (1933) Message-ID: Ben writes: ... For earlier references try searching on "smelly/stinky bean curd"... -------- Christian Science Monitor, June 5, 1980, p. 12 (Nexis) During a two-week tour of China with a group of 15 American chefs and food writers, I sampled Chairman Mao's favorite -- Stinky Bean Curd -- at the Fire Palace Restaurant in Changsha. -------- Washington Post, Sep 9, 1984, p. C5 (Proquest) He can decide for himself if he wants to order abalone with bone goose feet, live shrimp, jellyfish skins, candied sweet and sour lamb slices, fish lips with crab roe, jellied chicken blood, stinking bean curd or red-stewed elephant trunk, all dishes listed in his book's glossary. ... ... ... All right. But this is Peking and the dish is from Shanghai. Maybe the vendors just sell awful bean curd? ... ... _PEIPING: MIRROR OF CHINA'S VAST DRAMA; Again the Ancient Capital Becomes The Focal Point of the Nation's Struggle With an Invader PEIPING: MIRROR OF A DRAMA IMPERIAL SHRINE. There the Struggle of the Chinese Focuses _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=105140229&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105264339&clientId=65882) By GEORGE E. SOKOLSKY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 4, 1933. p. SM4 (3 pages) First page, column one: No jolly noises here; no tom=tom or bellowing horns of Lama priests; no funeral or wedding processions with screaming orchestra; no street vendor selling "stinking bean curds" or sugar candy; no varnished ducks in the windows, no water-carriers plying between the wells and the hot-water shops. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Sun Jan 9 13:15:26 2005 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:15:26 -0500 Subject: Not to say Message-ID: >===== Original Message From Se?n Fitzpatrick ===== >Here's an idiom question. >I started to write "the Catholic, not to say Christian, doctrine" and realized I am not sure which way NtS swings. What is the import of the somewhat UKish expression "not to say", as in "A, not to say B..."? Is it different from the neutral "not to mention"? The OED says: >b. not to say...: used (a) to imply that the speaker is content with a more moderate statement than that which he might have made; (b) colloq. = ?not what one may call...?, ?not..., properly speaking?.< Bethany From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jan 9 14:19:22 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:19:22 +0100 Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea In-Reply-To: <20050109092459.C35CDB03@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > STINKY, SMELLY TOFU > ... > Thanks to Ben Zimmer for using "bean curd" to track this to 1980. It's > often > transliterated as "dofou," which is why I thought "tofu" would be used. > But Actually, it's often transliterated as doufu, because that's what it's called in Chinese (in the pinyin transliteration). Tofu is Japanese. It's too bad that "bean curd" has been replaced by "tofu." Paul _________________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese: social sciences and humanities from German, French, and Spanish: sinology e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 15:10:37 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:10:37 EST Subject: ''Today's Trade is Tomorrow's Competition" Message-ID: I find the phrase "Today's Trade is Tomorrow's Competition" used (incompletely) in Robert Scully's American gay novel, A SCARLET PANSY (New York: William Farro, 1933; copyright date 1932). Does anyone know of an earlier cite? Is there any scholarship on this novel and/or Scully (a pseudonym)? The novel is supposedly set in the period 1c875 From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 15:14:08 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:14:08 EST Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/05 7:10:37 AM, RonButters writes: > I find the phrase "The Language of Flowers" used in Robert Scully's > American gay novel, A SCARLET PANSY (New York: William Farro, 1933; copyright date > 1932). Does anyone know what this means? It appears to have something to do > with a signalling system used by gay men to signal their sexual availablity > and/or preferences. > > The novel is supposedly set in the period c1880-1915, but it seems to have > been written in the 1930s. > From slangman at PACBELL.NET Sun Jan 9 15:54:16 2005 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:54:16 -0800 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: Without knowing the context, is it possible that Scully was simply referring to the Victorian "language of flowers," in which each flower represented a certain sentiment or emotion? There were any number of books and postcards in the era depicting the "language." An article from the Collier's Cyclopedia of Commerial and Social Information (1882) on the language of flowers is reproduced at http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/hilda/flang.html. Tom Dalzell >In a message dated 1/9/05 7:10:37 AM, RonButters writes: > >>I find the phrase "The Language of Flowers" used in Robert Scully's >>American gay novel, A SCARLET PANSY (New York: William Farro, 1933; copyright date >>1932). Does anyone know what this means? It appears to have something to do >>with a signalling system used by gay men to signal their sexual availablity >>and/or preferences. The novel is supposedly set in the period c1880-1915, but it seems to have >>been written in the 1930s. >> >> >> > > > From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Jan 9 16:33:56 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:33:56 +0000 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My partner and fellow slang researcher Susie Ford has read Scully's /The Scarlet Pansy/ in search of citations. While it may have been set in the late 19C/early 20C, there seems little doubt that the language used, while often representing an early or even first use of a given word, is that of 1920s/30s. For example 'swap spit', 'mantee', 'chichi', 'femme' (in this case an effeminate homosexual man) and 'brown', as one of several deliberately 'gay' names, e.g Elsie Dike, in this case as follows: 'There was an elegant Miss Drexel-B?tsch of Philadelphia; also there were the Brown-B?tsches of New Rochelle (very classy indeed), and a whole B?tsch-Fuchs family in New York'; the obvious 'butch' and 'fucks' aside, I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = excrement. As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for their own signaling requirements. Tomorrow she is going to check it again (it is in the British Library) and if anything of interest emerges, comment accordingly. Jonathon Green From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jan 9 18:09:59 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:09:59 -0600 Subject: moustache--(Why a moustache was likened to a baseball team) Message-ID: On Dec. 13, 2004 Bill Mullins sent an ads-l message wondering how "miniature baseball nines" could mean "moustache" in a 1929 high-school yearbook. [See item below my signoff.] It just occurred to me that the answer is obvious: The writer twice refers to the moustache making "the hit" with the girls. Baseball teams make hits. Ergo,... Q.E.D., case closed. It's Miller time. Gerald Cohen Original message, Dec. 13, 2004 from Bill Mullins: >From _The Tiger Claw_, yearbook of the class of 1929, The University High School, Columbia MO, p. 73 >From a description of attending a dance: "The moustache was what made the hit with the girls. Now, if you want to be mean, you can ask if it got in the way while it was making the hit, but that wasn't what I meant. I always have wondered why men wore those miniature baseball nines on their upper lips. But when I saw how the girls liked to "fix" mine, I understood." Miniature baseball nines??? What is the allusion? # # # From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 18:28:56 2005 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:28:56 EST Subject: Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities Message-ID: Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities -- twenty- five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in The Vocabula Review (www.vocabula.com) over the last few years. 304 pages Here is the table of contents: Foreword PART THE FIRST - OUTBURSTS Kelly Cannon: Lawyers vs. Language While riding her bicycle, two dogs attacked my client. Early in my ten years as a legal secretary, I mailed a letter containing the preceding sentence. It wasn't my letter, thank heaven, and I didn't sign it. It was dictated and signed by a brand new lawyer - a "baby attorney" we call them in the field - who apparently thought his law degree and subsequent passage of the bar exam made him an ex officio English scholar. Steve Cook: Writing Down to Readers Very few modern writers dare tread into inkhorn terminology; schools of journalism no longer teach it and editors disdain it. If the reader happens on an unfamiliar word and must run to the dictionary, say they, the style is presumptively affected and consequently not relatable. The linguistic bar is therefore set to the lowest common denominator, ostensibly to appeal to the largest possible readership. The target for the young journalist appears to be writing that challenges no one. Few people would argue that modern journalism has admirably hit the bull's-eye. Susan Elkin: Children Deserve Poetry Why are teachers so terrified of poetry? And I mean real poetry - by Keats, Tennyson, Blake and Browning, and the like - not the desultory, trite little ditties that worm their way into modern English textbooks masquerading as poems. Is it because - heaven forbid - that they no longer know any? David Isaacson: Kvetching About Literary Criticism Something ironic happens to many English professors when they write for scholarly publication: they forget how to write. The same professors who try to teach students how to write clear expository prose themselves write a clotted mush unfit for human consumption. The very same professors who may be subtle interpreters of irony in literary works don't see the vast gulf separating their professional writing not just from common sense but good taste. Academic criticism not only smells of the musty lamp; it makes the reader's eyes smart. John Kilgore: Why Teachers Can't Read Poetry It tells us that poetry - good poetry, I mean - is threatening. Students and teachers alike are made uneasy by its complexity of form, and still more by its complexity of outlook. On the first score, it is hard to blame anyone. English poetry reports in from every point of the compass and from eight different centuries, and it is simply to be expected that any given reader will have trouble making basic sense of much of it. Johnny performs dismally as a reader of sonnets, but how would Shakespeare fare with a rap CD or a Nintendo game? The good news about difficulty of this order - archaic language and special conventions and so forth - is that it yields to honest effort. Given time, patience, common sense, a dictionary, and a reasonably well-educated teacher, what was unclear grows clear. Much the same can be said for the special difficulties of compressed and highly metaphorical speech, in poetry of one's own place and time. You discuss it, you practice, you get the hang of it; and the experience can be, for some students anyway, as stimulating and rewarding as any they have in the classroom. Mark L. Levinson: The Ribbon Mark L. Levinson: Shark Never Pen Pearson: One Day Desultorily Reading the American Heritage Dictionary at F I Stumble Upon Farkleberry and ... Pen Pearson: Sister Margaret's Brian Taylor: Essential Theatre Brian Taylor: L'Art Poetique PART THE SECOND - INSIGHTS Marylaine Block: Grammar Matters Not surprisingly, that passive construction is the usage favored by government and big business. "Toxic wastes were accidentally discharged into the river." "Confidential grand jury testimony was illegally leaked to reporters." The sentences leave unanswered the question "By whom?" Tim Buck: The Art of Conversation There are various ways of defining conversation. For my purpose, I will approach it from five directions: idle talk, casual speech, verbal tyranny, data exchange, genuine dialogue. Joseph Epstein: Upsizing The word downsizing, both an excuse and not a very happy euphemism for firing people, needs, I have decided, a mate: upsizing. The country seems to be in a serious upsizing phase. When and where and how it began, I don't pretend to know, but I have a lurking - as opposed to a somersaulting - suspicion that it may have begun with the naming of the size of cups at Starbuck's. David R. Williams: Snobs and Slobs What we have, and have always had, in American English is a classic battle between conservatives on one side who are afraid that the structures that provide our security are in danger of collapse and radicals on the other who seem willing to embrace any new fad that promises utopia. The conservatives want to retain the rules of grammar and diction and punctuation as handed down to them by their grandfathers. If it was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for them. Any change appears to them like the Hun at the gate about to pillage the city. These language snobs can be found in the letters-to-the-editor pages of all our major newspapers bewailing the fate of the republic if people don't follow every jot and tittle of the classic rules. Valerie Collins: Words of a Feather The wealth of polysemous words in English may be the bane of foreign learners, but the effortless ease with which they can be used to create humor and irony makes them the mainstay of editors, songwriters, ad people - everyone in fact who needs to think up attention-catching language. Puns, paragrams, and other forms of word play are pressed into service anywhere and everywhere - book titles and newspaper headlines, product and store names, billboards and T-shirts, stickers and badges Michael J. Sheehan: Nifty Neologisms Need a word for the fine wood powder left by boring insects? Of course you do; try frass. What about that indentation at the bottom of a wine bottle? It's called a punt. Crossword puzzle fans all know that an aglet is the plastic or metal sheath at the tip of a shoelace. And who would have thought that the world needed a word like haw, a dog's inner eyelid. Warren Jones: Tongue Warren Jones: Quiet Fight Elana Wolff: 1949 Santa Fe Lounge Car Elana Wolff: Marmara Barry Spacks: The Placing of a Comma Barry Spacks: From the Skymind Caf? PART THE THIRD - EXPLANATIONS Tina Bennett-Kastor: Our Democratic Language Besides dissolving the boundaries between formal and informal varieties of English, we have also eliminated from our dialects certain distinctions kept alive by elaborate rules of etiquette designed to preserve the them- and-us mentality. Take, for instance, the modal verb shall. When invited to a party, the well-spoken Englishman assured his host, "I shall be there." This was taken as a promise; the speaker was now under obligation to attend. The American throughout the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries might have said, "I'll be there." This was a statement of intent, but not a promise by any means. At the end of the twentieth century, we are saying, "I'll try to make it," often insincerely. Mark Halpern: Why Linguists Are Not to Be Trusted on Language Usage - With Some Afterthoughts Of the many attempts that have been made to regulate language usage one way or another, some have succeeded, some failed. And we do not know, even now, why some succeeded and others did not; are we to take it on faith that the ones that succeeded were somehow in accordance with language's inherent nature, and the others were somehow not? Nunberg and his allies have no scientific standing in their quarrel with a Simon or a Safire; if they disagree with such prescriptivists, they do so not as scientists observing from above the fray, distinguished by superior knowledge and disinterestedness, but simply as fellow gladiators down in the arena, as biased and opinionated as their adversaries. Tracy Lee Simmons: Getting the Words Right Hard work makes superior writing achievable; tenacity counts for more than talent. The good news is that people exist who can do the teaching required to bring it about. The bad news is that they're rarely to be found teaching writing courses in schools, colleges, and universities. Ken Bresler: Playing the Synonym Game The Boston Globe published an article on October 1, 20, about a pumpkin- growing contest. The writer and editors should have faced facts: if you're going to write about a pumpkin-growing contest, you're going to use the word pumpkin a lot. Pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin. Get used to it. But no. The very first paragraph - before any reader could possibly be bored with the word pumpkin - refers to "the huge, orange produce item." Do you think that anyone goes home a few days before Halloween and calls out, "Honey! Kids! Time to carve the orange produce item"? Julian Burnside: Obscene Words Fuck is an interesting word, linguistically speaking. It has the virtues of brevity, adaptability, expressiveness, and is understood universally. It has a huge number of synonyms, ranging from coy euphemisms to acceptable jocular equivalents to coarse vulgarities. Peter Corey: How Linguistics Killed Grammar My claim in this essay is that linguistics has effectively killed humanistic grammar, especially as a subject in the public schools, though also as a topic worthy of serious discussion in public discourse. Linguists perceive themselves (and are generally perceived by others) as "scientists," whether or not they deserve that label. Humanist grammarians are perceived as "language mavens," to borrow a phrase from linguist Steven Pinker. Yet, if linguists really are scientists, they spend an awful lot of time writing essays, books, and reviews that are hostile to the positions of humanist grammar on various issues. Many books on linguistics, from those meant for general readers to those meant for serious students, contain disclaimers, often hostile, in which the authors dissociate themselves from any taint of humanistic grammar. Orin Hargraves: Who Owns English We are now only a few years away from the day when native speakers of English are outnumbered by those for whom English is a second language. Imagine a conversation between two such people: when a pronoun fails to decline and there is no native speaker there to hear it, does it make a difference? The days of prestige and dominance for all "branded" dialects of English may be numbered, since the chief demand placed on English in this century will be its ability to adapt to the needs of the millions of speakers who use it, without regard to national boundaries and the preferences of those who would assert ownership over the ways it develops. jjoan ttaber: Singular They: The Pronoun That Came in from the Cold During the late eighteenth century, people began to strive for better living conditions; and one way to realize this goal was to become formally educated, which meant the upwardly mobile were obliged to copy the language of the moneyed classes. Since the grammarians of the day had succeeded in convincing educators that Latinate English was preferable to the English everyone was already speaking and writing, they felt it their duty to write new grammar texts, and publishing houses were happy to churn them out. Huge profits were realized each time a new text hit the bookstands, and so grammarians had to raise the bar each time they sat down to write a new how- to grammar book. Bert Stern: A Little Poem Bert Stern: Sail Away Laura Cherry: Cab Ride to Logan Laura Cherry: Settlement Ernest Hilbert: A Writer's Life Ernest Hilbert: Temptation of St. Anthony (Detail of Demons) PART THE FOURTH - ODDITIES David Carkeet: Titanic Blunders There is much else in Titanic that was unthinkable in 1912 - and unspeakable: Rose tells the witty, socially versatile Jack Dawson that after dinner the first-class male passengers retire to smoke cigars and "congratulate each other on being masters of the universe." This phrase, masters of the universe, derives from a toy and children's TV series of the 1980s. Darren Crovitz: The Secret Nature of Nicknames Perhaps the first rule of nicknaming is the axiom that the person being nicknamed has little choice in the matter. This might sound odd in today's world of shameless image manipulation, where children mimic pop stars and celebrities in redefining themselves at will, where what one appears to be is more important than what one is. Music and sports stars in particular have a singular authority in nicknaming themselves. Richard Lederer: Politicians Incorrect Politicians have been riddled by riddles: What's a politician? A man who will double-cross that bridge when he comes to it. How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving. What do politicians and diapers have in common? They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason. What's the difference between a centaur and a senator? One is half man and half horse's ass - and the other is a creature in mythology. Rohit Gupta: The Pen Is Mightier Than MSWord Writing is an externalization of our thoughts; today, after the thoughts appear in a writer's mind, "many things happen between the cup and the lip." The interface between our thoughts and how they appear on paper is changing fast. It should interest us whether this interface plays havoc with our thoughts or inspires thoughts, whether it urges us to a flight of imagination or binds us to the ground with its nonessential gadgetry. Clark Elder Morrow: Mr. Goldentongue This bewailing led me to imagine what it might be like if - against every conceivable odd - somewhere in our great nation a politician arose who harbored ambitions of a Longinian nature: a man who aspired to the Augustan, to the well-rounded period, the balanced antithetical style of Gibbon and Reynolds, as well as to the elevated but trenchant ton of Pitt and Disraeli. Christopher Orlet: The Last Words With few exceptions, the last words of history's great players have been about as interesting and uplifting as a phone book. We may expect pearls of profundity and motivational aphorism from our expiring artists, philosophers, and world leaders, but more often we are left with dry-as- dust clich?s. But is it fair to expect deep insights into life's mysteries when the dying clearly have other things on their mind - hell, for instance, or unspeakable pain? Fred Moramarco: Takes on Shakes - 6 Fred Moramarco: Takes on Shakes - 17 Sarah Skwire: Church-Going Sarah Skwire: The Thing with Feathers Matt Hart: Knock Knock Knock Matt Hart: Interior Decoration Committee Lauren Rile Smith: New York Lauren Rile Smith: Shadow Afterword: Ask Fiske Credits Biographical Notes You can order Vocabula Bound from Vocabula: http://www.vocabula.com/VRorder.asp Or the publisher: http://www.marionstreetpress.com/vbhome.html Or Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /0972993762/qid=1094658886/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/103-0876998-2204661? v=glance&s=books Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com/ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 _________________________ Two Vocabula Books: The Dictionary of Disagreeable English http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp "However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this lovely, sour, virtuous book." ? Wall Street Journal Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in The Vocabula Review over the last few years From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jan 9 18:51:59 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:51:59 -0600 Subject: FW: Becky Mercuri's book(s) on sandwiches Message-ID: In a 12.28/2004 ads-l message I asked if Rebecca Mercuri could tell us about her recent book on sandwiches; In particular, might some of its information be of interest to ads-l? Below my signoff is a message she sent me today. Gerald Cohen * * * * * Mr. Cohen, thank you so much for your inquiry. I apologize for the delayed response. My latest book, American Sandwich, was released in November 2004 by Gibbs Smith, Publisher. It's a follow-on book, requested by the publisher, as a result of my work Sandwiches That You Will Like, the sandwich history and cookbook written as a companion to the PBS show of the same name. Both books feature many famous American sandwiches as well as references to the origins of the names of those sandwiches. Much of the information I presented was due, in no small part, to the work of Barry Popik, and he is prominently acknowledged in my book. As I also state in the book, until relatively recently, little information on food history and American foodways was recorded - at least to the extent many of us who write about food would like to see. Barry's research has uncovered an enormous amount of new information, and I have no doubt that Barry and others will find even more information as new resources are made available and more easily accessible. Meanwhile, many of the old urban legends about the creation of particular sandwiches have been debunked or clarified. Although I present many new sandwiches created by innovative cooks, chefs, and sandwich shop proprietors across the country, I've included numerous old favorites that have a rich history behind them. Unfortunately, the number of sandwiches presented was not all-inclusive due to space limitations. I did my best to include the latest information available right up to my deadline. In many cases, I think you'll find leads for further research, and I have no doubt that Barry and others will find much more data as resources expand. The following is a rather long list of sandwiches that have interesting histories behind them - I'm hoping that further information will come to light as more people become interested in the rich history behind American foodways. It must be noted that in many cases, there is still no definitive information on the origin of the sandwich (or it's major ingredient), the year in which it was introduced, or there is still more than claim or one theory about that origin. Others seems to be well defined. Navajo Tacos (Southwest) French Dip (California) Denver (Western) Sandwich Cobb Salad (and Sandwich) Cuban Sandwich (Florida) Pimiento Cheese (Sandwich) Chicago Italian Beef Midwestern Pork Tenderloin Loosemeat Sandwich (Midwest) The Hot Brown (KY) Muffaletta (New Orleans) Lobster Roll (New England) Southern Maryland Stuffed Ham Bahn Mi Michigan Pasties St. Paul Sandwich (from St. Louis, MO) Cheese (or Tuna) Frenchie (Nebraska) New Jersey "Taylor Ham" Reuben Fleischkuechle (North Dakota) (different than the krautranzen of NE and bierocks of KS) Philly Cheese Steak Shrimp Burgers (those in SC vary greatly from those in NC) Chicken Fried Steak (Sandwich) Pepperoni Rolls (West Virginia) Sheboygan Brats (Wisconsin) Thank you again for your interest. Becky Mercuri From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 9 19:14:38 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:14:38 -0800 Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea In-Reply-To: <1105280362.32554.212323336@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:19 AM, Paul Frank wrote: > ...Actually, it's often transliterated as doufu, because that's what > it's > called in Chinese (in the pinyin transliteration). Tofu is Japanese. > It's too bad that "bean curd" has been replaced by "tofu." in addition to looking for "stinky/smelly tofu/doufu/bean curd", word detectives might want to look under the more refined variant "fermented tofu/..." arnold From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 21:23:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:23:32 -0500 Subject: "neon" - color in fashion (1934) Message-ID: * neon, a. 'of or resembling a neon light, esp. in being brilliantly coloured; bright, gaudy, glowing' (OED3 1961) -- in fashion, apparently first used in "neon blue": 1934 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Oct. II8 (advt.) Jodelle's daring combination of black with civil war days sash and bow of neon blue velvet. 1935 _Los Angeles Times_ 20 Jul. II12 (advt.) Playsuits with action pleats in the sleeves, the back and the trouser legs -- made of that famous fugi silk that tubs and wears -- dark brown -- neon blue -- natural. 1935 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Aug 9. II10 (advt.) Velvet dinner dresses that have a versatile way of going other places! -- neon blue, black or dubonnet velvet. 1936 _Coshocton Tribune_ (Ohio) 22 Oct. 11 (advt.) Dress sketched is of crepe -- with wide front panel of Neon Blue -- the rest of the dress is black -- molded together with lacings. 1937 _Edwardsville Intelligencer_ (Illinois) 9 Nov. 3/1 The bridesmaid wore a floor length dress of neon blue transparent velvet with silver accessories and a silver coronet in her hair. -- generic use in fashion: 1938 _New York Times_ 10 Feb. 9 (advt.) Saks Fifth Avenue presents a fashion show ... featuring neon colors. 1938 _Chicago Tribune_ 10 Apr. A2 (advt.) All-silk pure dye triple sheer blouses ... Neon 7-color stripes. 1941 _New York Times_ 16 Oct. 8 (advt.) Neutral or neon wool dresses to illuminate dark coats. * neon-bright (OED3 1958) 1938 _Chicago Tribune_ 7 Feb. 18 (advt.) Pure dye crepes in over seventy-five colors that range from such deliciously delicate shades as ivory and cornsilk yellow to neon bright colors. 1940 _Los Angeles Times_ 1 Nov. 3 (advt.) Waltzing in marquisette, threaded with silver, swaying to a rumba in jersey, very covered-up, or candle-slim in crepe with a neon-bright panel. 1941 _New York Times_ 16 Oct. 8 (advt.) The neon-bright purple wool dress, buttoned (like a slim coat) with plastic chrysanthemums. 1941 _Los Angeles Times_ 2 Nov. IV5 (advt.) There and in our Wilshire shop you will find all the exciting 1942 resort fashions...the huge flower prints, the great swathes of neon-bright color everywhere. --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 9 21:31:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:31:24 -0800 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: The Drexels were a family at the pinnacle of Philadelphia society during the mauve decade. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: ''The Language of Flowers" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My partner and fellow slang researcher Susie Ford has read Scully's /The Scarlet Pansy/ in search of citations. While it may have been set in the late 19C/early 20C, there seems little doubt that the language used, while often representing an early or even first use of a given word, is that of 1920s/30s. For example 'swap spit', 'mantee', 'chichi', 'femme' (in this case an effeminate homosexual man) and 'brown', as one of several deliberately 'gay' names, e.g Elsie Dike, in this case as follows: 'There was an elegant Miss Drexel-B?tsch of Philadelphia; also there were the Brown-B?tsches of New Rochelle (very classy indeed), and a whole B?tsch-Fuchs family in New York'; the obvious 'butch' and 'fucks' aside, I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = excrement. As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for their own signaling requirements. Tomorrow she is going to check it again (it is in the British Library) and if anything of interest emerges, comment accordingly. Jonathon Green __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 9 23:04:50 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:04:50 EST Subject: Optimists and pessimists Message-ID: Aside from the quote about the glass that is half full/empty, there are several other optimist-pessimist provers. Two that come to mind: An optimist thinks this is the best of all perfect worlds. A pessimist is afraid that it is. (This one probably goes back a ways, possibly to Voltaire's time). [in Europe] the optimists are learning Russian and the pessimists are learning Chinese. (This one is obviously from the Cold War, and probably after the Sino-Soviet split, say the early 1960's.) A somewhat related proverb: "A cyniic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." - Jim Landau From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 9 23:09:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:09:04 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882) Message-ID: Antedatings for "me neither" from Newspaperarchive (OED3 has 1926): 1882 _Marion Daily Star_ (Ohio) 6 Feb. 2/2 "When I get out I'm not going to tamper with any more proverbs," remarked No. 2. "Me neither," responded No. 1. [from a story entitled "Too Much Proverb", from _Texas Siftings_] 1886 _Saint Joseph Herald_ (Michigan) 9 Oct. 1/5 "I don't think that he has very much." "Me neither." [from a story entitled "Lost All Ambition", from _Tid-Bits_] (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") --Ben Zimmer From ddr11 at UVIC.CA Mon Jan 10 00:10:41 2005 From: ddr11 at UVIC.CA (Dave Robertson) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:10:41 -0800 Subject: Query: 'high-tone', 'jawbone' and intransitive 'lay down' Message-ID: Hi, Can any of you help with early cites of 'high-tone' (='excellent' / 'fashionable'), 'jawbone' (='credit') and intransitive 'lay down'? (The latter being dialectal for the prescriptive 'lie down'.) I am specifically interested in their use in interior British Columbia about a century ago, but any information would be useful. Thanks, Dave Robertson PhD student Department of Linguistics / Centre for Studies in Religion & Society University of Victoria, BC, Canada (250) 721-4819 home / (250) 721-6342 office (250) 472-4665 fax listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/chinook.html From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jan 10 00:16:39 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:16:39 -0600 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer wrote (Jan. 9, 2005): > (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") > Ah, another blend: "Nor I" + "Me neither." Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 01:12:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:12:39 -0500 Subject: Tofu (1873, 1874); WOTY articles Message-ID: TOFU ? STINKY TOFU--9.950 Google hits, 223 Google Groups hitsSMELLY TOFU--3,470 Google hits, 57 Google Groups hits FERMENTED TOFU--2,130 Google hits, 147 Google Groups hits ? Yes, "doufu." Here's the OED entry. Merriam-Webster has 1771. ? ? (OED) tofu [a. Jap. tofu, ad. Chinese d??ufu, f. d??u beans + f rotten.] A curd made in Japan and China from mashed soya beans; bean curd. 1880 Trans. Asiatic Soc. Japan VIII. 399 T??fu is made by pounding the soy beans after soaking in water. 1905 Bull. U.S. Dept. Agric. CLIX. 46 The larger part of the leguminous food in the Japanese diet consists of the preparations of soy beans, such as miso, shoyu and tofu. 1934 BLUNDEN Mind's Eye 109 Two hawks have raided the tofu. 1936 K. TEZUKA Jap. Food 28 Tfu (bean-curd) is made by soaking soy beans in water, mashing them, straining the mass through cloth and solidifying with the addition of magnesium chloride. 1979 Sunset Apr. 214/2 Arrange all tofu strips in the casserole and cover with ? of the cheese. 1981 Guardian 14 Aug. 7/1 In the United States,..tofu has become an ???in??? food. ... ... (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) INSIDE JAPAN. W E GRIFFIS. Lippincott's Magazine of Popular Literature and Science (1871-1885). Philadelphia: Aug 1873. Vol. 12; p. 174 (8 pages) Page 180: In a third are boiled buckwheat cakes or dumplings, and _tofu_ or bean-curd. ... JAPANESE FOX-MYTHS. WILLIAM E GRIFFIS. Lippincott's Magazine of Popular Literature and Science (1871-1885). Philadelphia: Jan 1874. Vol. 13; p. 57 (8 pages) Page 62: Among the lowest and most ignorant clases the feeding ofthe live fox at night with _tofu_ (bean cheese) fried in oil is thought to please Inari and ward off threatened evils from his messenger foxes. ? -------------------------------------------------------------- RED STATE, BLUE STATE ? ? Too bad the "early line" prevailed. The word "tsunami" is on the cover of TIME, NEWSWEEK, and PEOPLE this week, but those 120,000+ deaths will surely be forgotten by January 2006. It would have been our first "loan-word WOTY." ... ... ... (NEXIS) The Associated Press State & Local Wire These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press January 9, 2005, Sunday, BC cycle 2:51 PM Eastern Time SECTION: State and Regional LENGTH: 353 words HEADLINE: "Red state, blue state, purple state" voted top phrase 2004 DATELINE: OAKLAND, Calif. BODY: "Red state, blue state, purple state" was deemed the phrase that most colored the nation's lexicon in 2004, a panel of linguists determined Friday. For the 15th straight year, attendees at the annual convention of the Linguistic Society of America chose the word or phrase that dominated national discourse over the course of the last year. "It was the best candidate for word of the year," said Dennis Preston, a professor of linguistics at Michigan State University. "It engaged the American public for the entire year. Nothing showed the bloodthirsty population-engaging election as this." The phrase "red state, blue state, purple state" represents the American political map. The term defines red as favoring Republicans, blue as favoring Democrats and purple showing swing or undecided states. Words or phrases didn't need to be brand new or even well-known to get a nomination. In fact, there was one on the list - "luanqibaozhao," which is Chinese for a complicated mess - that was not even pronounceable by the contest organizers. While the contest was considered very serious by the thousand or so conference attendees, there was plenty of joking to be found. Preston made a pitch for the term "lawn mullet," which describes a lawn that is neatly mowed in the front but unmowed in the back, as a candidate for the Most Creative category. Other top word or phrases of 2004 were: flip-flopper, a politician who changes political stances; meet-up, a local special interest meeting organized though a national Web site; mash-up, a blend of two songs or albums into a single cohesive musical work; and wardrobe malfunction, an unanticipated exposure of bodily parts. The term was coined when viewers saw singer Janet Jackson's breast during the Super Bowl halftime show. "Metrosexual," defined as a heterosexual male who has pristine taste, grooming and hygiene, was the top vote getter in 2003. The contest is sponsored annually by the American Dialect Society. --- On the Net: Linguistic Society of America: www.lsadc.org American Dialect Society: www.americandialect.org LOAD-DATE: January 9, 2005 ... ... ... http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/10497835.htm?1c This year, we blaused to TiVo a wardrobe malfunction What's the good word for '04? Linguists vote. By Amy S. Rosenberg Inquirer Staff Writer Are you a technosexual? Do you TiVo? Do you blog so much you need a blause? Are you John Kerry and did you approve this message? As the annual word-of-the-year showdown approaches, these are the questions - or at least the phrases - that consume the linguists of our land, a place that in 2004 was incessantly described as composed of red states and blue states. The year's new words reflect the dichotomy of the times, from the ridiculous to the somber. Janet Jackson experienced her dubious wardrobe malfunction. Soldiers in Iraq complained of having to up-armor their humvees by scrounging for scrap-metal hillbilly armor. And in the land of purple - defined either as a swing/battleground state or the more ephemeral state of everyone putting aside their red-and-blue differences - people were inundated with what linguist Wayne Glowka calls "the proclaimer." By Election Day, even 7-year-olds could sarcastically bark back to the TV: "Yes. You are John Kerry/George W. Bush. And you do approve this message." "Now that's got to be the phrase of the year," wrote Glowka, chair of the American Dialect Society's New Words Committee, in an e-mail that contained his nominations for the society's word of the year. The group will vote Jan. 7. But the early line seems to favor red state/blue state - shorthand for the country's cultural and political divide - or its purple state corollary. Clearly, it was a year in which both headlines and language were dominated by politics and war. ? (...) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jan 10 03:15:59 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:15:59 -0500 Subject: moustache--(Why a moustache was likened to a baseball team) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gerald Cohen writes: > On Dec. 13, 2004 Bill Mullins sent an ads-l message wondering how >"miniature baseball nines" could mean "moustache" in a 1929 high-school >yearbook. [See item below my signoff.] > > It just occurred to me that the answer is obvious: > The writer twice refers to the moustache making "the hit" with the >girls. Baseball teams make hits. Ergo,... > > Q.E.D., case closed. It's Miller time. ~~~~~~~~ Considering the age of the "men" in question, it could just be a mean allusion to the sparseness of the mustaches: nine whiskers on each side. A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 05:06:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:06:41 EST Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth Message-ID: The NYPL was open again Sunday (1-5:45 p.m.), but I didn't get there early enough to do much. I have SCARLET PANSY on reserve. ... The book mentioned here is A SCARLET PANSY (New York: W. Faro 1933) by Robert Scully. The publisher is interesting. Another 1933 "W. Faro" book is the famous ANECDOTA AMERICANA: FIVE HUNDRED STORIES FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE FIVE HUNDRED NATIONS THAT COMPRISE AMERICA. ... Other titles: ... STONE WALLS DO NOT: THE CHRONICLE OF A CAPTIVITY (1930) by Samuel Roth LADY CHATTERLY'S LOVER: A DRAMATIZATION OF HIS VERSION OF D. H. LAWRENCE'S NOVEL (1931) by Samuel Roth THE INTIMATE JOURNAL OF RUDOLPH VALENTINO (1931) BODY: A NEW STUDY, IN NARRATIVE, OF THE ANATOMY OF SOCIETY (1931) by Daniel Quilter A GENTLEMAN IN A BLACK SKIN (1932) by Donna McKay WOMAN'S DOCTOR (1933) by Dr. Walter Lennox. CELESTINE, BEING THE DIARY OF A CHAMBERMAID (1933) by Octave Mirbeau A YOUNG MAN ABOUT TO COMMIT SUICIDE (1932) by Anthony Gudaitis MY HEART IN MY THROAT: THE STORY OF A STRANGE CAPTIVITY (1932) by Lydia Lindgren WARREN GAMALIEL:HARDING (1932) by Clement Wood CIRCULATION: AN UNCENSORED STORY OF A NEWSPAPER OFFICE (1932) by Mary Lee Dutcher THE GREAT LINDBERGH HULLABALOO: AN UNORTHODOX ACCOUNT (1932) by Laura Vitray ... Most of the books appear to be written by publisher Samuel Roth (1893-1974) and Clement Wood (1888-1950). Is anyone familiar with Wood's slang work? Did Roth influence the word "gay"? Roth edited these magazines: ... Title Beau : the man's magazine : devoted to the comforts and luxuries of living / edited by Samuel Roth. Imprint New York : The Beau Pub. Co., 1926-1927. ... Title Two worlds. Imprint New York : Two Worlds Pub. Co., c1925- Location Humanities-Genrl Res Vol./date Vol. 1, no. 1 (Sept. 1925)- Descript 2 v. : ill. ; 27 cm. Frequency Quarterly Note Ceased with v. 2, no. 8 (June 1927). "A literary quarterly devoted to the increase of the gaiety of nations." Title from cover. Edited by Samuel Roth; contributing editors: Arthur Symons, Ezra Pound, Ford Madox Hueffer. Also issued in reprint ed. and on microfiche. Published concurrently in 1926-1927 with Two worlds monthly, also edited by Samuel Roth. ... ... Clement Wood published: Title A Dictionary of American slang / Clement Wood and Gloria Goddard. Imprint Girard, Kan. : Haldeman-Julius Co., c1926. Location Humanities-Genrl Res Descript 64 p. ; 13 cm. ... Author _Wood, Clement, 1888-1950._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aWood,+Clement,+1888-1950./awood+clement+1888-1950/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title Sexual relations in the Southern States. Imprint Girard, Kan., Haldeman-Julius Publications [c1929] ... ... (GOOGLE) _Tomfolio.com: Erotica (no viewable graphics): Erotic Literature_ (http://www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889) ... This version is called a Samuel Roth edition as originally published by William Faro, Inc. The copyright page states revised 1930 by William Faro, Inc. ... www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889 - 41k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qW9Z_JZVuSIJ:www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889+"samuel +roth"+faro&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=889) ... _Highlights from the collections - Archive Awareness month - The ..._ (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html) ... volume is actually a set of printed sheets of an expurgated piracy of the novel, prepared by Samuel Roth and published under the imprint of William Faro in 1930 ... www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/ online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html - 19k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EdxfTilhYEgJ:www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html) ... _TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Thick Blue Volume -- Dec. 28 ..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html) ... Hamill took his manuscript to a notorious Samuel Roth who, under the name of William Faro Inc., specialized in smutty publications. ... www.time.com/time/archive/ preview/0,10987,753208,00.html - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.time.co m/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html) ... _The Private Life of Frank Harris_ (http://www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=sr_bio) ... "William Faro" was Samuel Roth himself. Back to list of books These pages are the fruit of harmless drudgery by Alfred Armstrong: alfred at oddbooks.co.uk www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=sr_bio - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:t_ZqPMJprcEJ:www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition .php3?book_key=sr_bio+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.oddbooks .co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=sr_bio) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Jewish influence in the mass media II_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_frm/thread/26f9d3035ad77a86/d8c31b9a1393dbb8?q="samuel+r oth"+faro&_done=/groups?q="samuel+roth"+faro&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&sa=N& tab=wg&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#d8c31b9a1393dbb8) ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons. ... J., 2000, p. 31] Jewish erotica book publishers included William Faro, Panurge, Falstaff ... _soc.culture.usa_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa) - Jan 15 2002, 1:04 pm by M.T.T. ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons. Although some might portray him as a free speech hero, he pirated editions of both James Joyce's Ulysses and D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterly's Lover, to the protest of both the Joyce and Lawrence estates. Imprisoned twice, 1937-1939 and 1957-61, Roth was labeled "the dirtiest pig in the world" and "the louse of Lewisburg [prison]" [GERTZMAN, J., 2000, p. 219] Roth in 1936 "received the most severe prison sentence possible under the law for brazenly using the Postal Service to distribute flagrantly obscene books ... Roth was the most often incarcerated, the most feckless, and quite likely the most resourceful booklegger of his time, challenging moral and legal authorities with a quixotic bravado." [GERTZMAN, J., 1999, p. 22] (...) Sam Roth's grandson is none other than Prof. James Kugel, the eminent Bible scholar at Harvard University. ... ... _http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/0 2397916.htm_ (http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/02397916.htm) ROTH IS A GREAT American icon of perversity. He was a successful entrepreneur who took enormous pride in the fact that he always worked for himself ? peddling pornography. He was a self-taught man, and used his skills to write tawdry erotica. (...) His first magazine, Beau, a sophisticated precursor to Esquire, attracted attention. But it was his second, Two Worlds, in which he serialized sections of Joyce?s Ulysses, that got him in trouble. (...) IT?S NO SURPRISE that Samuel Roth?s story is now mostly lost. Except for occasional footnote references in works on the history of censorship and coverage in Jay A. Gertzman?s superlative book Bookleggers and Smuthounds: The Trade in Erotica 1920-1940 (University of Pennsylvania, 1999), Roth is not remembered at all. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 05:18:20 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:18:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20''The=20Language=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?of=20Flowers"?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/05 1:31:33 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = > excrement. > > As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a > reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the > handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and > Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was > already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for > their own signaling requirements. > Jewish men are mentioned several times in the novel, but always very much as the OTHER. There are no other hints of Yiddish in the book that I can see. But, given the nature of the bawdy puns in the book, I certain wouldn't rule out DREXEL < DRECK = 'excrement' -- except that the author does not generally take such pains to disguise her puns -- I would have expected DREQUE-BEACH rather than DREXEL-BEACH if that was what she meant. > I don't know what you mean by "Victoriana." Can you explain that more > fully? I didn't mean to suggest that I thought the "language of flowers" "was > already in place in other contexts"--on the contrary, it seems in the context of > the book to refer indeed to something that gay men made up. I also did not > mean to imply any direct historical connection with the handkerchief semiotic, > which was more a convenience than a secret code. > I certainly agree that the language of the book appears to be much more 1025 or 1930 than 1910, despite its setting. > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 10 05:29:48 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:29:48 -0800 Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth In-Reply-To: <1b9.a83f74d.2f136761@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Barry Popik wrote: > ... > Most of the books appear to be written by publisher Samuel Roth > (1893-1974) > and Clement Wood (1888-1950). Is anyone familiar with Wood's slang > work? no, but he was the compiler of rhyming dictionaries, at least one of which is still in print. arnold From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 05:43:32 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:43:32 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20''The=20Language=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?of=20Flowers"?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/05 7:47:53 AM, slangman at PACBELL.NET writes: > Without knowing the context, is it possible that Scully was simply > referring to the Victorian "language of flowers," in which each flower > represented a certain sentiment or emotion?? There were any number of > books and postcards in the era depicting the "language."? An article > from the Collier's Cyclopedia of Commerial and Social Information (1882) > on the language of flowers is reproduced at > http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/hilda/flang.html. > > Tom Dalzell > Yes, but these "girls" don't seem to be too much into Victorian literature--and less so would have been the Irish policemen and sailors they are trying to signal their sexual availability. The idea was to somehow let the guys know that the gay guys were looking for "straight" guys they could take to bars, buy a few drinks, and then go off and have sex for which the straight guys would get paid a few dollars. They refer to the guys they are trying to attract in this way as "trade." Of course, maybe Fay is making an ironic, sardonic reference to Victorian etiquette books, but if so it is far from clear that that is what she is doing. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 10 06:06:51 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:06:51 -0500 Subject: moustache--(Why a moustache was likened to a baseball team) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Gerald Cohen writes: > > On Dec. 13, 2004 Bill Mullins sent an ads-l message wondering how > >"miniature baseball nines" could mean "moustache" in a 1929 high-school > >yearbook. [See item below my signoff.] > > > > It just occurred to me that the answer is obvious: > > The writer twice refers to the moustache making "the hit" with the > >girls. Baseball teams make hits. Ergo,... > > > > Q.E.D., case closed. It's Miller time. > ~~~~~~~~ >Considering the age of the "men" in question, it could just be a mean >allusion to the sparseness of the mustaches: nine whiskers on each side. >A. Murie This was/is my speculation too (more or less): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0412B&L=ads-l&P=R15551 I think Gerald Cohen's interpretation is a possibility also (although not entirely natural and surely not by any means obvious or certain IMHO). Anyway, I was convinced enough to have a Miller or two. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 10 09:07:24 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:07:24 EST Subject: Composed salad (1972) Message-ID: COMPOSED SALAD--973 Google hits, 40 Google Groups hits (Not in the OED, "miserable on food") ... Before choosing Vincent's yesterday, I was thinking of eating at Tai, 223 Mulberry Street (_www.velvetnyc.com_ (http://www.velvetnyc.com) ). However, it seemed to be less of a Thai restaurant than a dark bar or lounge. ... On the Tai menu was a "Composed Salad" ($7.50) of "Grilled calamari, calamata olives, oven roasted tomatoes, chick pea vinaigrette." ... Composed? Who is doing the cooking, Julia Child or Beethoven? Waiter! I ordered this "composed salad" _mezzo forte_, and it's _pianissimo_! Take it back! ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Composed Salad - Food Edviser - Glossary_ (http://www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) ... Composed Salad A type of salad prepared with a number of ingredients that are all arranged neatly and symmetrically on the plate instead of being tossed ... www.hormel.com/kitchen/ glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid= - 32k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:AbLPhZc0uDcJ:www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossar y.asp?id=35334&catitemid=+"composed+salad"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.hormel .com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) ... Composed Salad A type of salad prepared with a number of ingredients that are all arranged neatly and symmetrically on the plate instead of being tossed together. A salad dressing or vinaigrette may be drizzled on the plate or served on the side. .. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) .. _Herald Times Reporter _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2kpln47ZeTPYAlHWqojge+xmNeBQ+dInfkIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 18, 1975 _Manitowoc,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:manitowoc+composed+salad+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+composed+salad+AND) ...Mrs. Sonntag reported on 'COMPOSED' SALAD For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-and-vinegar.. ... _Progress _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z1F8QY91aICKID/6NLMW2qZLL7ZL8HpeCEBOQhHz9PahXNpwPw0F90IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 13, 1975 _Clearfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:clearfield+composed+salad+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+composed+salad+AND) ...Old Town Road. Ph. 765-5559 For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-andvinegar.. ... _Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2o3PibWDe+uuTrWvFiNnM2zLz5bXEMWWiUIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, July 28, 1975 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...mother daughter aunt uncle. For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-and-vinegar.. ... ... _Lancaster Eagle Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=P9SpTvomPU+KID/6NLMW2k7QmxsDsBAetCSn2GMJshyd5XSGz6G6XQ==) Monday, August 27, 1962 _Lancaster,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lancaster+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...supper imaginable is a colorfully COMPOSED SALAD platter. Instead of the.....The perfect beverages to accompany the SALAD 'ter are summer's favorite thirst.. ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2ogVHRnzqIsEo5yzWX1bpU7ELsb4req9GkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 03, 1977 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+composed+salad+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+composed+salad+AND) ...and the most classic of all French COMPOSED SALAD Nicoise. which is as.....just what people think constitutes a SALAD. I grew up thinking of a SALAD as.. ... _Sheboygan Press _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2u9O0ybEIA24AVyrwoKjzYZBhCfh+54Bp0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, March 05, 1975 _Sheboygan,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+composed+salad+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+composed+salad+AND) ...before serving. 'Makes 16 buns. For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-and-vinegar.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2jgq7QkV3aNynLCUs3UZG3Tmb7+2MTDdd0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, March 12, 1975 _Lima,_ (http://www.ne wspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...you. It's cheaper than a stroke. SALAD COMPOSED For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-anti-vinegar.. _Hillsboro Press Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2loF60klG3BST1csYoEO0DIhSEivhtHJIkIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, February 24, 1976 _Hillsboro,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hillsboro+composed+salad+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+composed+salad+AND) ...Wallis and Miss Stephanie Saylor. For "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....sections, sliced cooked beets and SALAD greens with an oil-andvinegar.. _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2ogVHRnzqIsEP1PsAscd2/Saj2w4IZqFykIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, June 26, 1977 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+composed+salad+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+composed+salad+AND) ...and meat that the -French call SALADe COMPOSED SALAD. It's a pity people are.....potato SALAD and the ubiquitous chefs SALAD and cottage- cheese SALAD beloved.. ... _Frederick Post _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2hatIo/Zzq2kuwlIPxFkhYoKszbdquKXaw==) Thursday, June 12, 1980 _Frederick,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+composed+salad+AND) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+composed+salad+AND) ...of sunflower seeds. Use them in a "COMPOSED" SALAD. For example, sections.....seeds good to use: When you toss mixed SALAD greens with an oil-and vinegar.. ... _Great Bend Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2mOLO/P7hSPvvTdMou+TJjwfqvPWPBsf0UIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, March 11, 1975 _Great Bend,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:great_bend+composed+salad+AND) _Kansas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kansas+composed+salad+AND) ...2lst and Polk, west door. For a "COMPOSED" SALAD, use fresh grapefruit.....presented. On Thursday a Joint Choir COMPOSED of members of area choirs will.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Salad or Centerpiece; Is It to Eat Or to Admire? Salad or Centerpiece _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=96401347&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst =PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105346312&clientId=65882) By William Rice. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 20, 1972. p. D1 (2 pages) ... First page: Composed salads are excellent at luncheons or can be employed as a dinner first course. One composed salad popular in Washington's French restaurants is _Salade Nicoise_. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SUNDAY?--El Cocotero, 228 West 18th Street, between 7th and 8th Avenues. It's a new Velenzuelan restaurant. I had "arepitas con nata: four bite crispy arepas, venezuelan sour cream," and "domino: refried black beans, shredded aged white cheese." ... It was more of a snack than a meal..."Arepa" is not in the OED, miserable as usual. ... ... _El Cocotero_ (http://www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area=3) ... El Cocotero. 228 West 18th Street; New York, NY 10011; 212-206-8930. View Menu. Features Venezuelan delicacies such as arepitas (mini arepas) in a dozen varieties ... www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_ client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area=3 - 9k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Z7Cuu-7q3RAJ:www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area=3+"el+cocotero"&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.eatsmagazine.com/site/hood_client.php?cat=allstars&id=363&area =3) ... [PDF] _Arriba, aarepas!_ (http://www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf) File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - _View as HTML_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XXkJecjmiggJ:www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026 .pdf+"el+cocotero"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) Your browser may not have a PDF reader available. Google recommends visiting our _text version_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XXkJecjmiggJ:www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf+"el+cocotero"&hl=en&ie=U TF-8) of this document. ... El Cocotero and Flor?s Kitchen offer a glimpse into Caracas. ... While El Cocotero and Flor?s Kitchen aren?t true areperas, I wouldn?t know any different. ... www.nyblade.com/advertising/ etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.nyblade.com/advertising/etearsheets/06-04-2004/NYB026.pdf) From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 10:50:27 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:50:27 -0800 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My article, "Out of the Hood and Into the News: Borrowed Black Verbal Expressions in a Mainstream Newspaper," (American Speech, Winter 1999, 74,4, pp.369-388) examines just this -- I found numerous examples of slang usage in otherwise Standard English, well-written articles, including editorials. "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote:Slang certainly *can* be used appropriately, even in seriously written, well-polished articles/newspaper editorials/etc. I've often noticed examples of this without bothering to jot down the information. Maybe I should start doing so now (others can join in) and sharing the information with ads-l. Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 12:41:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:41:23 -0800 Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth Message-ID: Wood & Goddard's Dictionary of American Slang (1926) is a booklet of secondary interest. HDAS cites it when appropriate. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:. ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Scarlet Pansy" and William Faro (publisher); Clement Wood & Samuel Roth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The NYPL was open again Sunday (1-5:45 p.m.), but I didn't get there early =20 enough to do much. I have SCARLET PANSY on reserve. ... The book mentioned here is A SCARLET PANSY (New York: W. Faro 1933) by =20 Robert Scully. The publisher is interesting. Another 1933 "W. Faro" book is=20= the =20 famous ANECDOTA AMERICANA: FIVE HUNDRED STORIES FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE FIV= E =20 HUNDRED NATIONS THAT COMPRISE AMERICA. ... Other titles: ... =20 STONE WALLS DO NOT: THE CHRONICLE OF A CAPTIVITY (1930) by Samuel Roth LADY CHATTERLY'S LOVER: A DRAMATIZATION OF HIS VERSION OF D. H. LAWRENCE'S=20 NOVEL (1931) by Samuel Roth =20 THE INTIMATE JOURNAL OF RUDOLPH VALENTINO (1931) BODY: A NEW STUDY, IN NARRATIVE, OF THE ANATOMY OF SOCIETY (1931) by Daniel=20= =20 Quilter A GENTLEMAN IN A BLACK SKIN (1932) by Donna McKay WOMAN'S DOCTOR (1933) by Dr. Walter Lennox. CELESTINE, BEING THE DIARY OF A CHAMBERMAID (1933) by Octave Mirbeau A YOUNG MAN ABOUT TO COMMIT SUICIDE (1932) by Anthony Gudaitis MY HEART IN MY THROAT: THE STORY OF A STRANGE CAPTIVITY (1932) by Lydia =20 Lindgren WARREN GAMALIEL:HARDING (1932) by Clement Wood CIRCULATION: AN UNCENSORED STORY OF A NEWSPAPER OFFICE (1932) by Mary Lee =20 Dutcher THE GREAT LINDBERGH HULLABALOO: AN UNORTHODOX ACCOUNT (1932) by Laura Vitra= y ... Most of the books appear to be written by publisher Samuel Roth (1893-1974)=20= =20 and Clement Wood (1888-1950). Is anyone familiar with Wood's slang work? Did= =20 Roth influence the word "gay"? Roth edited these magazines: ... Title Beau : the man's magazine : devoted to the comforts and luxuries=20 of living / edited by Samuel Roth. Imprint New York : The Beau Pub. Co.,=20 1926-1927. ... Title Two worlds. Imprint =20 New York : Two Worlds Pub. Co., c1925- Location Humanities-Genrl Res Vol./date Vol. 1, no. 1 (Sept. 1925)- =20 Descript 2 v. : ill. ; 27 cm. Frequency Quarterly Note Ceased with v. 2, n= o. 8=20 (June 1927). "A literary quarterly devoted to the increase of the gaiety o= f =20 nations." Title from cover. Edited by Samuel Roth; contributing editors:= =20 Arthur Symons, Ezra Pound, Ford Madox Hueffer. Also issued in reprint ed.= =20 and on microfiche. =20 Published concurrently in 1926-1927 with Two worlds monthly, also edited by= =20 Samuel Roth. ... ... Clement Wood published: =20 Title A Dictionary of American slang / Clement Wood and Gloria Goddard.= =20 Imprint =20 Girard, Kan. : Haldeman-Julius Co., c1926. Location Humanities-Genrl Res Descript 64 p. ; 13 cm. =20 ... =20 Author _Wood, Clement, 1888-1950._=20 (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aWood,+Clement,+1888-1950./awood+clement+1888= -1950/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title Sexual=20 relations in the Southern States. Imprint =20 Girard, Kan., Haldeman-Julius Publications [c1929] ... ... =20 (GOOGLE) =20 _Tomfolio.com: Erotica (no viewable graphics): Erotic Literature_=20 (http://www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=3D889)=20 ... This version is called a Samuel Roth edition as originally published by= =20 William Faro, Inc. The copyright page states revised 1930 by William Faro, Inc. ...= =20 www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=3D889 - 41k - _Cached_=20 (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:qW9Z_JZVuSIJ:www.tomfolio.com/bookss= ub.asp?subid=3D889+"samuel +roth"+faro&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.tomfolio.com/bookssub.asp?subid=3D889)=20 =20 ... =20 _Highlights from the collections - Archive Awareness month - The ..._=20 (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html)=20 ... volume is actually a set of printed sheets of an expurgated piracy of=20 the novel, prepared by Samuel Roth and published under the imprint of William Faro in= =20 1930 ...=20 www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/ online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html - 19k -=20 _Cached_=20 (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:EdxfTilhYEgJ:www.nottingham.ac.uk/ms= s/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF= -8) =20 - _Similar pages_=20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/aam/aam/aam_notthighlights.html) =20 ... =20 _TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Thick Blue Volume -- Dec. 28 ..._=20 (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html)=20 ... Hamill took his manuscript to a notorious Samuel Roth who, under the =20 name of William Faro Inc., specialized in smutty publications. ...=20 www.time.com/time/archive/ preview/0,10987,753208,00.html - _Similar pages_= =20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.time.co m/time/archive/preview/0,10987,753208,00.html) =20 ... =20 _The Private Life of Frank Harris_=20 (http://www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio)=20 ... "William Faro" was Samuel Roth himself. Back to list of books These=20 pages are the fruit of harmless drudgery by Alfred Armstrong: alfred at oddbooks.co.uk=20 www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio - 4k - _Cached_=20 (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:t_ZqPMJprcEJ:www.oddbooks.co.uk/harr= is/edition .php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio+"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar p= ages_=20 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2coff=3D1&q=3Drelate= d:www.oddbooks .co.uk/harris/edition.php3?book_key=3Dsr_bio) =20 ...=20 ...=20 (GOOGLE GROUPS)=20 ...=20 _Jewish influence in the mass media II_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_frm/thread/26f9d= 3035ad77a86/d8c31b9a1393dbb8?q=3D"samuel+r oth"+faro&_done=3D/groups?q=3D"samuel+roth"+faro&hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&c2= coff=3D1&sa=3DN& tab=3Dwg&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#d8c31b9a1393dbb8) =20 ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons. ..= .=20 J., 2000, p. 31] Jewish erotica book publishers included William Faro, Panurge, Falstaff= =20 ... =20 _soc.culture.usa_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa) -=20 Jan 15 2002, 1:04 pm by M.T.T.=20 ... Samuel Roth is noteworthy in the pornography trade for many reasons.=20 Although some might portray him as a free speech hero, he pirated editions of both=20 James Joyce's Ulysses and D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterly's Lover, to the protest= =20 of both the Joyce and Lawrence estates. Imprisoned twice, 1937-1939 and 1957-61,=20 Roth was labeled "the dirtiest pig in the world" and "the louse of Lewisburg [prison= ]" [GERTZMAN, J., 2000, p. 219] Roth in 1936 "received the most severe prison=20 sentence possible under the law for brazenly using the Postal Service to distribute flagrantly obscene books ... Roth was the most often incarcerated, the most feckless, and quite likely the most resourceful booklegger of his time, =20 challenging moral and legal authorities with a quixotic bravado." [GERTZMAN, J., 1999,=20 p. 22] (...) Sam Roth's grandson is none other than Prof. James Kugel, the eminent =20 Bible scholar at Harvard University. =20 ... ... _http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents= /0 2397916.htm_=20 (http://12.11.184.13/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents= /02397916.htm)=20 ROTH IS A GREAT American icon of perversity. He was a successful =20 entrepreneur who took enormous pride in the fact that he always worked for =20= himself =E2=80=94=20 peddling pornography. He was a self-taught man, and used his skills to writ= e=20 tawdry erotica. (...) His first magazine, Beau, a sophisticated precursor to Esquire, attracted=20 attention. But it was his second, Two Worlds, in which he serialized sectio= ns=20 of Joyce=E2=80=99s Ulysses, that got him in trouble. (...) IT=E2=80=99S NO SURPRISE that Samuel Roth=E2=80=99s story is now mostly lost= . Except for =20 occasional footnote references in works on the history of censorship and =20 coverage in Jay A. Gertzman=E2=80=99s superlative book Bookleggers and Smuth= ounds: The=20 Trade in Erotica 1920-1940 (University of Pennsylvania, 1999), Roth is not=20 remembered at all. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 12:44:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 04:44:02 -0800 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" Message-ID: I think Jonathon Green's post is cited here. It's not mine, despite the attribution. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20''The=20Language=20? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?of=20Flowers"?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/9/05 1:31:33 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > I would also suggest that drexel = Yiddish 'dreck' = > excrement. > > As for the 'language of flowers', she, like Tom Dalzell, saw it as a > reference backwards to Victoriana, rather than presaging the > handkerchief codes of the 1970s. That said, it may be that both Tom and > Ron Butters are right; that the 'language of flowers' was that which was > already in place in other contexts, here adopted/adapted by gay men for > their own signaling requirements. > Jewish men are mentioned several times in the novel, but always very much as the OTHER. There are no other hints of Yiddish in the book that I can see. But, given the nature of the bawdy puns in the book, I certain wouldn't rule out DREXEL < DRECK = 'excrement' -- except that the author does not generally take such pains to disguise her puns -- I would have expected DREQUE-BEACH rather than DREXEL-BEACH if that was what she meant. > I don't know what you mean by "Victoriana." Can you explain that more > fully? I didn't mean to suggest that I thought the "language of flowers" "was > already in place in other contexts"--on the contrary, it seems in the context of > the book to refer indeed to something that gay men made up. I also did not > mean to imply any direct historical connection with the handkerchief semiotic, > which was more a convenience than a secret code. > I certainly agree that the language of the book appears to be much more 1025 or 1930 than 1910, despite its setting. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Jan 10 13:10:47 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:10:47 +0000 Subject: ''The Language of Flowers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: ''The Language of Flowers" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I think Jonathon Green's post is cited here. It's not mine, despite the attribution. > >JL > > > Indeed. I trust this is a one-off glitch. Thanks to JL for note in re the Drexels. Forgive my transatlantic ignorance/lousy memory. Nonetheless, I still feel that the tone of Scully's naming - as Ron Butters puts it, 'bawdy puns' - might still mean that we're getting 'two for one', both a dig at the Philadelphia Main Liners and the Yiddishism, given the regular association in slang of matters excretory and homosexuality What I meant by 'Victoriana' was simply a shorthand for 'something that originally pertained to the Victorian era'. JG From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 16:14:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:14:27 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: The OED has Gunsel in 1914 for one definition (catamite), and 1950 for another (the Elisha Cook Jr. type). This joke from N'Archive may be using the word as a proper name (as many cites from the era show up), but in context, it may be related to the slang word. Ohio | Newark | Newark Daily Advocate | 1896-06-18 p.5/4 "He Forgot to Mention It. Greene - Say, that shotgun I bought of yon blew into 10,000 pieces the first time I fired it off. I don't see how I ever got off alive. Gunsel - Oh, yes; I forgot to tell you. You have heard of those new disappear- ing guns the government is getting? Well, that was one of them. - Indianapolis Journal." From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Jan 10 16:06:17 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:06:17 -0500 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language In-Reply-To: <200501061124472.SM01680@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hi Gerald, I've got a sincere dilemma, sorry it's a little long. My Dad and Mom were hyper aware of language, and I was relentlessly tortured over it as I grew up. I was told not to use the words "like", "um", or drop the ing off off the end of words. I was aware of what they considered "sounded nice", what was "correct" and incorrect pronunciations, so that there would be no mistake that my speech would reflect an educated, cultured person whose spoken language represented "class". Some folks in my family will still pronounce tomato like to-mah-to. If I used slang in front of them it meant punishment, i'm not kidding, it was brutal. This is probably why i curse every other word no matter who i'm talking to, no matter where i am. I grew up knowing that there was going to be judgements made about a person from the words they used and how they were pronounced, and that this would matter for navigating everything in life. I was taught - that what i found in a dictionary was correct, these were standard english words, the language of commerce, and culture and the only ones worth knowing. I can assure you I was taught that "culture" wasn't considered something important when it came from the street, ex: street fashion, music, language What was going on here was who shared a common value system, exactly who is and who is not considered a cultured, educated person. Knowing what was correct showed that you cared about the education, (in the classical sense) that an education was the most important goal. This was the only goal that reflected well on you, not how much money you made, or how famous you were. What you contributed to the world was the goal. John Simon like my parents would probably think that . . slang comes from the lower class, but they would have thought the study of language a scholarly activity. They would not however think that just because you documented a slang word that it would then become a "worthy" word. Worthy words are the legitimate words used by society, found in the dictionary and on the SAT. These are the words getting you into or keeping you out of college. Only real and worthy words are valued by educated, cultured people. I imagine Mr. Simon is saying that legitimizing slang will erode culture because no matter what this isn't going to be found on the SAT and used by a cultured class of people. Slang used appropriately is still slang right? It still won't be on the SAT's even if you see it in the newspaper. How do you reconcile the ugly issue underneath John Simon's point? Slang words which aren't in a dictionary and not on the SAT, strike at the ideas of Racisim, Class, Culture, and Commerce . . . this is the dilemma. I think he feels that folks who try to give slang some kind of legitimacy aren't helping society strive toward being educated but instead promote ignorance which means erosion of culture. >>"the curse of their race."<< I'm know i'm not good at expressing myself, sorry, it's honestly difficult to explain this. i just don't seem to be able to resolve why this makes me so uncomfortable. best, karen > > The one discordant note was the comment by critic John Simon that > descriptivists (i.e, people with any appreciation for slang) are, as best > I remember, "the curse of their race." > > There's a time and place for everything. Too much of anything is > inappropriate. A tool may be used inappropriately, but that's not the > fault of the tool.. Slang certainly *can* be used appropriately, even in > seriously written, well-polished articles/newspaper editorials/etc. I've > often noticed examples of this without bothering to jot down the > information. Maybe I should start doing so now (others can join in) and > sharing the information with ads-l. >Gerald Cohen From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 17:16:38 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:16:38 -0600 Subject: Newspape Archive Message-ID: I just picked up a subscription to NewspaperArchive, and I've got a couple questions for those of you who are "power users". 1. Is there any way to put the search results into chronological order? 2. Sometimes it will tell me how many results I have, sometimes it won't. Any ideas why this varies? 3. Now that I've bought the full subscription at $99.95, it looks like I could have saved some money by buying it through Ancestry.com. Is their service the same? Same database, same functionality? From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jan 10 17:42:20 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:42:20 -0500 Subject: Newspape Archive In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6C0@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:16, Mullins, Bill wrote: > I just picked up a subscription to NewspaperArchive, and I've got a > couple questions for those of you who are "power users". > 1. Is there any way to put the search results into chronological order? No. > 2. Sometimes it will tell me how many results I have, sometimes it > won't. Any ideas why this varies? Because it is pathetic and lame. If it doesn't give you a count, just assume the total is "more than I want to look through page by page" and see if you can revise your search to produce fewer results. > 3. Now that I've bought the full subscription at $99.95, it looks like > I could have saved some money by buying it through Ancestry.com. Is > their service the same? Same database, same functionality? The one through Ancestry.com is even worse than NewspaperArchive, which is itself a lesson in how not to put a full-text resource online. Some tips: 1. It does seems to respect AND and AND NOT. So you can sometimes search for things like "foo AND bar AND NOT fubar". However, since the OCR sucks so badly, the results are still a crap shoot. 2. The OCR has recently been improved--but only in the searching. It appears that they updated their searching index but not the OCR text that is embedded in the PDF files. This means that you may get results for a term but when you load the PDF document, and do a search to find the term inside the document, it doesn't show up. The solution is to also search for the words that appear around your bold search term in the results. 3. It does seem to respect terms in quotes as phrases, but not always. 4. I get the best results using search terms of 15 characters or less, including connectors: this seems to be the point at which OCR errors are guaranteed to interfere with any results. This is unfortunate because it does not allow great long boolean searches that would help eliminate unwanted articles. 5. Double-check all bibliographic info against the PDF. It's better than it was, but there are still too many errors in the info provided with the search results. Sometimes it's necessary to page through all the pages in a newspaper issue to figure out date, location, etc. In rare cases, you have to trust the Newspaperarchive info because there is none in the PDF, but this usually only occurs with very old newspapers. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 18:10:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: Composed salad (1972) In-Reply-To: <1ed.32db25ea.2f139fcc@aol.com> Message-ID: At 4:07 AM -0500 1/10/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >COMPOSED SALAD--973 Google hits, 40 Google Groups hits >(Not in the OED, "miserable on food") >... >Before choosing Vincent's yesterday, I was thinking of eating at Tai, 223 >Mulberry Street (_www.velvetnyc.com_ (http://www.velvetnyc.com) ). >However, it >seemed to be less of a Thai restaurant than a dark bar or lounge. >... >On the Tai menu was a "Composed Salad" ($7.50) of "Grilled calamari, >calamata olives, oven roasted tomatoes, chick pea vinaigrette." >... >Composed? Who is doing the cooking, Julia Child or Beethoven? Waiter! I >ordered this "composed salad" _mezzo forte_, and it's _pianissimo_! >Take it back! >... >... Isn't this a calque of Fr. _salade compos?e_? I didn't check all the sites below, but that's my understanding. larry >(GOOGLE) >... >_Composed Salad - Food Edviser - Glossary_ >(http://www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) >... Composed Salad A type of salad prepared with a number of ingredients >that are all >arranged neatly and symmetrically on the plate instead of being tossed ... >www.hormel.com/kitchen/ glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid= - 32k - _Cached_ >(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:AbLPhZc0uDcJ:www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossar >y.asp?id=35334&catitemid=+"composed+salad"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ >(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:www.hormel >.com/kitchen/glossary.asp?id=35334&catitemid=) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 18:37:52 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:37:52 -0500 Subject: Vlogging (video + blogging) In-Reply-To: <41DDB321.27818.AB48250@localhost> Message-ID: At 9:52 PM +0000 1/6/05, Michael Quinion wrote: >Barry Popik wrote: > >> VLOGGERS--1,760 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits? >> VLOGGING--8,720 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits >> ... >> I didn't see vlogger/vlogging on Double Tongued Word Wrester or our >> archives. > >It is here: > > http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-vlo1.htm > >in a piece dating from September. > One of our students included "vlog" in his new words list (we tracked it back to 2002) and commented that because of the morphotactic restrictions on English onsets (well, he didn't put it that way, but that was the idea), it's always pronounced with two syllables, as Michael speculates it would be in his entry above). I'd predict that _vlogger_ might be more likely to occur with a vl- onset than _vlog_ itself. Larry From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Jan 10 18:44:18 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:44:18 -0600 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D19078D@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. Mullins, Bill wrote: >The OED has Gunsel in 1914 for one definition (catamite), and >1950 for another (the Elisha Cook Jr. type). This joke from >N'Archive may be using the word as a proper name (as many >cites from the era show up), but in context, it may be >related to the slang word. > >Ohio | Newark | Newark Daily Advocate | 1896-06-18 p.5/4 > >"He Forgot to Mention It. >Greene - Say, that shotgun I bought >of yon blew into 10,000 pieces the first >time I fired it off. I don't see how I ever >got off alive. >Gunsel - Oh, yes; I forgot to tell you. >You have heard of those new disappear- >ing guns the government is getting? >Well, that was one of them. - Indianapolis >Journal." > > > > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 18:45:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:45:11 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his listings in the IMDB. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of paulzjoh > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:44 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: gunsel > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: gunsel > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. > When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about > homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on > TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. > > Mullins, Bill wrote: > > >The OED has Gunsel in 1914 for one definition (catamite), > and 1950 for > >another (the Elisha Cook Jr. type). This joke from N'Archive may be > >using the word as a proper name (as many cites from the era > show up), > >but in context, it may be related to the slang word. > > > >Ohio | Newark | Newark Daily Advocate | 1896-06-18 p.5/4 > > > >"He Forgot to Mention It. > >Greene - Say, that shotgun I bought > >of yon blew into 10,000 pieces the first time I fired it > off. I don't > >see how I ever got off alive. > >Gunsel - Oh, yes; I forgot to tell you. > >You have heard of those new disappear- > >ing guns the government is getting? > >Well, that was one of them. - Indianapolis Journal." > > > > > > > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 18:51:47 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:51:47 -0500 Subject: Optimists and pessimists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:04 PM -0500 1/9/05, James A. Landau wrote: >Aside from the quote about the glass that is half full/empty, there are >several other optimist-pessimist provers. Two that come to mind: > >An optimist thinks this is the best of all perfect worlds. A pessimist is >afraid that it is. (This one probably goes back a ways, possibly to >Voltaire's >time). > >[in Europe] the optimists are learning Russian and the pessimists are >learning Chinese. (This one is obviously from the Cold War, and >probably after the >Sino-Soviet split, say the early 1960's.) > >A somewhat related proverb: "A cyniic knows the price of everything and the >value of nothing." > > - Jim Landau and then there's "Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel" --Walpole larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 10 19:08:08 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:08:08 -0600 Subject: slang for spanking Message-ID: "Boots and her Buddies" [comic strip] Abe Martin, Newspaper Enterprise Association, 1932-05-04 "If I catch 'im monkeyin' around with any plane, I'm gonna lay some leather on 'im! I've warned 'im once -- Th' next time I'm gonna give 'im a swell dose of suntan where it'll do 'im th' most good" From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:13:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:13:03 -0500 Subject: Newspape Archive Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:42:20 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:16, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> I just picked up a subscription to NewspaperArchive, and I've got a >> couple questions for those of you who are "power users". >> 1. Is there any way to put the search results into chronological order? > >No. > >> 2. Sometimes it will tell me how many results I have, sometimes it >> won't. Any ideas why this varies? > >Because it is pathetic and lame. If it doesn't give you a count, just >assume the total is "more than I want to look through page by page" and >see if you can revise your search to produce fewer results. I think that it will tell you how many results you have if you do a search without any date restrictions. Any search restricted to a range of years (showing up in the URL as <+AND+range:...>) does not give a count, regardless of how many results there are. Since you can't get the search results in chronological order, I usually just end up fiddling with the date range until I get a time period with a small number of results. Then I hope I get lucky with the OCR actually returning legitimate matches. (I'm starting to figure out which letters are frequently misrecognized as other letters, e.g., "l" for "i", "o" or "c" for "e", etc., so that a search on "movies" could be extended to "movles", "movios", "movlos", "movics", "movlcs", etc.) --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:26:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:26:44 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:16 PM -0600 1/9/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Ben Zimmer wrote (Jan. 9, 2005): > >> (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") >> >Ah, another blend: "Nor I" + "Me neither." > I'm not convinced "Nor I" is involved. "Nor me", without the postposed "(n)either" emphatic, would be more likely for many speakers (in particular "nor me neither" speakers) than "Nor I". Note, for example, that the positive stand-alone form "Me too" is a *lot* more frequent/likely than "I too", and we'd expect the negative-environment counterpart of "Me too" to be either "Me either" or "Me neither", depending on whether one opts for negative polarity or negative concord. Even the BBC seems to agree on the "me" vs. "I" angle, although for some reason it doesn't allow for the "Me either" form: ======== http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv78.shtml Note that the converse of Me too is Nor me or Me neither: * 'I don't fancy climbing to the top of this mountain this afternoon.' 'Me neither.' * 'I'm not going to Jane's party on Saturday.' 'Nor me.' ========= So if "Nor me neither" did originate as a blend, I'd vote for "Nor me" + "Me (n)either" as the ingredients in the blender. (FWIW, Google has "nor me either" outpointing "nor me neither" by 945-357.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:46:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:46:30 -0500 Subject: Stinky Tofu; Surf & Turf; Italian Iced Tea In-Reply-To: <1105280362.32554.212323336@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: At 3:19 PM +0100 1/9/05, Paul Frank wrote: > > STINKY, SMELLY TOFU >> ... >> Thanks to Ben Zimmer for using "bean curd" to track this to 1980. It's >> often >> transliterated as "dofou," which is why I thought "tofu" would be used. >> But > >Actually, it's often transliterated as doufu, because that's what it's >called in Chinese (in the pinyin transliteration). Tofu is Japanese. >It's too bad that "bean curd" has been replaced by "tofu." > I don't know. "Bean curd" would evoke negative reactions, I'd wager, even if (or maybe because) it's more compositional and transparent than tofu. (Mostly because of the "curd" part, but it's also true that "bean" doesn't immediately evoke "soybean" for English speakers.) So the use of a borrowed form, whether doufu or tofu, is a kind of euphemism, much as in the case of "calamari" replacing "squid" for culinary purposes, or "mahi-mahi" for "dolphin(-fish)". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 20:59:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:59:42 -0500 Subject: Vertical game (vs. West Coast offense) In-Reply-To: <31197.69.142.143.59.1105256206.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 2:36 AM -0500 1/9/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:02:28 EST, James A. Landau wrote: > >>I don't recall ever having heard the phrase "vertical game" (meaning long >>passes in American football) before this year's NFL season, when the >>commentators on the Philadelphia Eagles seemed to use it in every game. >>However, I found what purports to be a 1999 Web site >>URL http://www.badgermaniac.com/99footballpreview.html >>which contains "If a quarterback emerges who can do anything to give the >>Badgers a vertical game in the three important conference matchups, the >>Badgers could shock the nation and go to the Sugar Bowl or at least >>return to the Rose Bowl." > >Here's a 1986 cite: > > New York Times, Aug 31, 1986, p. S1 > "He's a guy who can catch the ball in the vertical game very > well," Hackett said. "He's a hand catcher, he can jump and leap > and catch it. He looks smooth running the routes, he flows into > it very easily." > >That's a quote about Herschel Walker from Paul Hackett -- then the Dallas > Cowboys' pass offense coordinator, now the Jets' offensive coordinator >(whose dubious play-calling continues to give Jets fans conniptions). > >And here's an earlier NY Times cite, from a 1981 column by NBC Nightly >News producer Henry L. Griggs complaining about the incomprehensible >commentating on that year's Super Bowl broadcast: > > New York Times, Feb 1, 1981, p. S2 > Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." > A related metaphor is "north-south" vs. "east-west", to describe either offensive philosophies or, more specifically, running games. A north-south runner basically goes into the line, using strength, while east-west runners are evasive and slippery, using finesse or "escapability". And then there's "running downhill", which also alludes to the straight-ahead style, "matriculating the ball down the field", as Hank Stram once famously said. I'm not sure "horizontal" is used as the opposite of "vertical" for passing games. If anything, the antonym of "vertical offense" appears to be "West Coast offense" (don't ask). In fact, I think the popularity of "vertical" to describe styles of offensive passing arose alongside the trendy use (since at least the 90's) of the phrase "West Coast offense", and was especially associated with, of all people, Al Davis's Oakland Raiders, which last time I looked are located on the west coast. Antedates on "West Coast" in this sense, anyone? larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:03:31 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:03:31 -0500 Subject: Vertical Game/Offense (1981) In-Reply-To: <1f7.3f9a203.2f124144@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:11 AM -0500 1/9/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Damn that Ben Zimmer! Beat me by seconds! >... Oops, sorry--Didn't read this post of Barry's before I posted. Nice to see my impressionistic feel about the association of the Raiders with the "vertical" passing offense is empirically supported. But my hypothesis on the opposition to, and query about first cite for, "West Coast" offense still stands. Larry >"Vertical game" was widely used in the 1980s. It was made famous by the >Oakland Raiders. >... >... >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_Fumbles at the Mike Fill the Super Bowl_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=114175448&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName= >HNP&TS=1105255139&clientId=65882) >By HENRY L. GRIGGS Jr.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: >Feb 1, 1981. p. S2 (1 page) >... >Someone then added, "The vertical game is the deep game." >... >_Raiders: Predictability Put Foe in Predicament; It Was All Predictable >Except for the Result _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=127823082&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clien >tId=65882) >By Paul Attner Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post >(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 24, 1984. p. C1 (2 pages) >Page C4: >Because of the wind, even Plunkett hardly went downtown in the Raiders' >vertical offense. >... >_Molded in Al Davis's Image; Power Behind Raiders Makes Them Fit His Image _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=120451189&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10& >VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105257713&clientId=65882) >By MICHAEL JANOFSKYEL SEGUNDO, Calif.. New York Times (1857-Current file). >New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1984. p. S1 (2 pages) >Page 6: >Wide receivers need, above all, speed because of the Raiders' "vertical" >offense. >... >... > >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >... > _ Times Recorder _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2vQ7G4ztzPygqjFQKcVwK+OUNB3I6gXroA==) >Monday, March 11, 1974 >_Zanesville,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:zanesville+vertical+offense) >_Ohio_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+offense) >...who don't play too much used USC's VERTICAL OFFENSE against our top >eight.....the rest of the way. Boston's OFFENSE never got off the >ground in the. >... > > > _Chronicle Telegram _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2kmnfD/KalHCRKlAZVmURN0jbtL4V7NJxQ==) >Wednesday, August >20, 1986 _Elyria,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+vertical+game) >_Ohio_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+vertical+game) >...Sam Rutigliano used to talk about the "VERTICAL GAME." It's still the >quickest.....The loss broke Cleveland's four GAME winning streak >and also cost >the.. >... > _News Record _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEt2YujW4u1fjTKMOvmC6JeT0IF+CsZYmrz) >Friday, September >08, 1989 _North Hills,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_hills+vertical+game+AND) >_Pennsylvania_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+vertical+game+AND) >...geles >Raiders to return to their famed VERTICAL GAME the high- powered >offense.....downfieid for then opt for the short GAME if else fails >Denver coach Dan.. >... _Capital _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2kqKKdP1sBkRsXev0C5pLYL+HTeu2vtXIkIF+CsZYmrz) >Sunday, November 06, >1994 _Annapolis,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+vertical+game) >_Maryland_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+vertical+game) >...pro football's best left tackles. The VERTICAL GAME became horizon- >Schroeder.....Thomas Smith says of the first Jets' GAME. is going >to be a huge >GAME for not.. >... >... >... > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("vertical game" + "passing") >... > >_QB situation Bites_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy/browse_frm/thread/290fde870eafff76/1d910026baf6d03e?q="vertical+game"+ >passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=U >TF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#1d910026baf6d03e) >... Almost every one but Det. had a big passing game against NE. ... I would >tend to lean >toward Hoss just because the "vertical" game has to eventually get going. >... >_rec.sport.football.fantasy_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy) - >Oct 6 1994, 6:26 am by mch... at nwu.edu - 2 messages - 2 >authors >... > >_LYNX game reviews_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/7679ffb5cb7ba9b0/0d06d95fdcec98ec?q="vertical+game"+passin >g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c >2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0d06d95fdcec98ec) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_rec.games.video.atari_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Oct 3 >1994, 6:37 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Freakishly Overdeveloped Geeks 0_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/3aa48a895e532e7a/62cb993e5522ec60?q="verti >cal+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d& >hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#62cb993e5522ec60) >... Is Curtis Conway *really* as bad as he looked last year? If so, the >Bears don't >have a passing game. ... AFC West: 1) LOS ANGELES. The vertical game is >back. ... >_rec.sport.football.pro_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Sep >3 1994, 2:19 pm by Arthur Hlavaty - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Lynx game reviews_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/fb2927b25dec8025/be96dfb6998260c9?q="vertical+game"+passin >g&_done=/gro >ups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#be96dfb6998260c9) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_rec.games.video.atari_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - Aug 3 >1994, 4:34 pm by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Hostetler_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/606d84cee736e1bc/29a5ffa8c5e539bb?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done= >/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1& >&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#29a5ffa8c5e539bb) >... A typical passing play looked like this: 1. Snap, drop back. 2. Check >first receiver. ... >BTW, teams need more than excellent receivers for a good vertical game. ... > >_rec.sport.football.pro_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul >14 1994, 4:52 pm by Peter Simko - 16 messages - 12 authors >... > >_Sleeper Teams_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro/browse_frm/thread/4068de60e2505966/e24a0a060478a2b1?q="vertical+game"+passing&_ >done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2co >ff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#e24a0a060478a2b1) >... consensus) the raiders need a running game to go with that "vertical >game" This >I ... I mean Hose-stuffer should have been one of the NFL passing >leaders...instead ... >_rec.sport.football.pro_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.pro) - Jul >12 1994, 6:15 pm by SAD... at psuvm.psu.edu - 45 messages - 31 >authors >... > >_LYNX Game Reviews_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari/browse_frm/thread/d0932d73638565f7/27af040ded79cca4?q="vertical+game"+passin >g&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c >2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#27af040ded79cca4) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_rec.games.video.atari_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.atari) - May >31 1994, 11:01 am by Peter Hvezda - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Why soccer?_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/e3750208eba1efb6/b39310263d5880aa?q="vertical+game"+passing&_done=/gr >oups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_d >oneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b39310263d5880aa) >... the vertical game took hold in this century - (thank ND and Knute >Rockne?) - that >American Football took on its current _general_ character as a passing game >... >_rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) - >May 21 1994, 2:06 pm by Simon K Boocock - 11 messages - 9 authors >... > >_Lynx Reviews (all of them. LONG file)_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/7ec1245048b46150/f95ef1eb801f920a?q="vertical >+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl= >en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f95ef1eb801f920a) >... GAUNTLET: THE THIRD ENCOUNTER 1-4 players, vertical game Atari Corp., >for the ... Extra >room is needed when tailing or passing another car, or else a crash occurs. >... >_alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Nov >7 1993, 9:37 am by Kevin Dangoor - 1 message - 1 author >... > >_Football and Pinball Jam are out_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/58c222cd8afae3da/de972e7b51265ec6?q="vertical+game >"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=150&scoring=d&hl=en&ie >=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#de972e7b51265ec6) >... 1) The Pinball Jam is a vertical game that scrolls up and down to keep >you the ... Passing >plays are a bit better, except that interceptions are fairly arbitrary. ... > >_alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Sep >19 1992, 8:09 am by Michael L. Kaufman - 5 messages - 4 authors >... > > >_Lynx reviews! HOCKEY, HYDRA, LYNX CASINO_ >(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx/browse_frm/thread/2fe4429cb8d36ac3/9302c1ff98c4a297?q="vertic >al+game"+passing&_done=/groups?q="vertical+game"+passing&start=160&scoring=d&h >l=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#9302c1ff98c4a297) >... HOCKEY 1-2 players, horizontal & vertical game Atari Corp ... Player >selection (with >OPTION 1) and puck-passing (with button B) are managable, but shooting for >the ... >_alt.games.lynx_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.games.lynx) - Jun >26 1992, 3:15 pm by Robert A. Jung - 1 message - 1 author From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:11:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:08 -0500 Subject: flea-flicker (1911) In-Reply-To: <41134.69.142.143.59.1105264077.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 4:47 AM -0500 1/9/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On the Jets' second possession, their offensive coordinator, > Paul Hackett, called a flea flicker. > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/sports/football/09jets.html > >A flea-flicker is "any of various deceptive football plays in which the >ball is quickly transferred between players (as by a lateral) before or >after a forward pass" (W10). HDAS relies on W10 for a first cited date of >1927. I believe this term has narrowed to denote a play in which the ball is eventually lateraled back to the quarterback (typically after a handoff to a running back, who indeed attempts to deceive the defense by running with the ball for a short period, with the intention of leaving a receiver uncovered deep) who passes the ball. A halfback option pass, while satisfying the above definition, no longer counts as a flea-flicker. Certainly three passes (as in the 1913 entry) before the long forward passes are no longer required; the ball just has to leave the QB's possession before re-entering it for the long pass. larry > >The HDAS cites, Proquest, and Google all suggest that the "flea-flicker" >was invented by Bob Zuppke, who coached Chicago's Oak Park High School >team before becoming head coach at the University of Illinois in 1913. > > http://www.coachz.net/B.Zuppke.htm > Zuppke will always be known for having one of football's greatest > minds. He invented the huddle, the flea-flicker, the screen pass, > the pass-block, the long snap and a new defensive position now > known as the 'linebacker.' > >Earliest cites from the Trib: > >------- >1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 19 Nov. C1/6 All the intricate formations >Coach Zuppkee [sic] ever evolved were used with effect. The famous "flea >flicker," "whoa-back," and other uncanny formations worked with much >success. >------- >1911 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 3 Dec. B2/1 A famous "flea flicker" went bad >but Oak Park recovered. >------- >1913 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 2 Nov. B3/5 Oak Park's "Ghee Haw," "Flea >Flicker," and "Flying Dutchman" plays were a revelation to the effete east >and Everett was beaten 32 to 14. The "Ghee Haw," which received its name >as a pun because originally it centered around Ghee, present quarterback >at Dartmouth, was a double pass and then a forward pass, while the "Flea >Flicker" called for three passes before the long forward pass. >------- > > >--Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:22:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:22:09 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <48535.69.142.143.59.1105167167.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 1:52 AM -0500 1/8/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >A usage no doubt repulsive to the John Simons and Robert Fiskes of this >world is the equating of "nauseous" with "nauseated" (rather than the >earlier sense of "nauseating"). Here's the AHD4 usage note on the issue: ========== Traditional critics have insisted that nauseous is properly used only to mean "causing nausea" and that it is incorrect to use it to mean "affected with nausea," as in Roller coasters make me nauseous. In this example, nauseated is preferred by 72 percent of the Usage Panel. Curiously, though, 88 percent of the Panelists prefer using nauseating in the sentence The children looked a little green from too many candy apples and nauseating (not nauseous) rides. Since there is a lot of evidence to show that nauseous is widely used to mean "feeling sick," it appears that people use nauseous mainly in the sense in which it is considered incorrect. In its "correct" sense it is being supplanted by nauseating. ========= Larry >The OED3 draft entry dates this sense of >"nauseous" to 1949, but surely we can do better... > >-------- >1885 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 14 Apr. 2/5 I saw the long and >white helmeted troops march in apparent comfort on their way, while I >swayed to and fro and was bumped up and down and oscillated and see-sawed >from side to side until I became nauseous and had exhausted my profane >Arabic vocabulary in the vain attempt to induce "Daddles" to consider my >comfort more than his own. >-------- >1903 _Coshocton Daily Age_ (Ohio) 16 Sep. 1/1 Her voyage through the >spirit land made her somewhat nauseous and was not the most pleasant >journey imaginable, but she is on the high road to recovery now. >-------- >1906 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 7 July 7/3 (advt.) When you feel >nauseous and dizzy, don't take brandy or whisky -- try Nerviline. >-------- >1927 _Chicago Tribune_ 9 May 10/3 This lasts ten or fifteen minutes, and >then I have a terrible headache and I feel nauseous. >-------- >1933 _Los Angeles Times_ 21 Sep. II6/1 (advt.) The salts that do not make >you nauseous. >-------- > >The 1885 cite is from an unnamed piece entitled, "In the Camps at Korti: >Terrible March across the Heated Sands of the Soudan" ("Daddles" is the >name of the writer's camel). So perhaps British (or Commonwealth) sources >antedate American ones for this usage (despite the OED's "orig. U.S." >tag). > >Here is the earliest cite I could find expressing concern over the proper >use of "nauseous" (from Frank Colby's column, "Take My Word For It!"): > >-------- >1946 _Los Angeles Times_ 8 Nov. II7/7 From a recent issue of Look: "Stefan >became nauseous." Could that be right? ... Yes, if the author intended to >say that Stefan was loathsome; so disgusting as to cause nausea. Obviously >he meant to write: Stefan became nauseated. >-------- > > >--Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 21:26:59 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:26:59 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:26:44 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 6:16 PM -0600 1/9/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >> Ben Zimmer wrote (Jan. 9, 2005): >> >>> (There are earlier cites for "Nor me neither.") >>> >>Ah, another blend: "Nor I" + "Me neither." >> > >I'm not convinced "Nor I" is involved. "Nor me", without the >postposed "(n)either" emphatic, would be more likely for many >speakers (in particular "nor me neither" speakers) than "Nor I". >Note, for example, that the positive stand-alone form "Me too" is a >*lot* more frequent/likely than "I too", and we'd expect the >negative-environment counterpart of "Me too" to be either "Me either" >or "Me neither", depending on whether one opts for negative polarity >or negative concord. I agree with Larry on this one. I see "nor me neither" as simply "nor me" with "neither" added for emphasis. OED3's def. 3a of "neither" gives many cites for the negative-concord sense (e.g., "Nay that cannot bee so neyther" from _Two Gentlemen of Verona_), though it notes that the emphasis of an explicit negative is "non-standard in later use." Def. 3c implies that "me neither" is an elliptical form of the earlier "nor me neither" ("me too" is not mentioned as an analogical influence, though that seems likely). Just to push "nor me neither" back a bit further (OED3 only gives an 1895 cite from Hardy's _Jude the Obscure_), here is the earliest of 16 cites available on APS Online via Proquest: 1843 _Godey's Lady's Book_ 27 (Aug.) 53/2 "She shant teach me. She shant!" "Nor me neither, I'd spit at her!" This is in dialogue between children (who also use "ain't"), so it appears that it was already understood as a non-standard usage. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 22:02:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:02:13 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:22:09 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 1:52 AM -0500 1/8/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>A usage no doubt repulsive to the John Simons and Robert Fiskes of this >>world is the equating of "nauseous" with "nauseated" (rather than the >>earlier sense of "nauseating"). > >Here's the AHD4 usage note on the issue: >========== >Traditional critics have insisted that nauseous is properly used only >to mean "causing nausea" and that it is incorrect to use it to mean >"affected with nausea," as in Roller coasters make me nauseous. In >this example, nauseated is preferred by 72 percent of the Usage >Panel. Curiously, though, 88 percent of the Panelists prefer using >nauseating in the sentence The children looked a little green from >too many candy apples and nauseating (not nauseous) rides. Since >there is a lot of evidence to show that nauseous is widely used to >mean "feeling sick," it appears that people use nauseous mainly in >the sense in which it is considered incorrect. In its "correct" sense >it is being supplanted by nauseating. >========= In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of "nauseated" and "nauseating". --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 10 22:32:55 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:32:55 -0500 Subject: Vertical game (vs. West Coast offense) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:59:42 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >I'm not sure "horizontal" is used as the opposite of "vertical" for >passing games. If anything, the antonym of "vertical offense" >appears to be "West Coast offense" (don't ask). In fact, I think the >popularity of "vertical" to describe styles of offensive passing >arose alongside the trendy use (since at least the 90's) of the >phrase "West Coast offense", and was especially associated with, of >all people, Al Davis's Oakland Raiders, which last time I looked are >located on the west coast. Antedates on "West Coast" in this sense, >anyone? The offensive style was associated with Bill Walsh's 49ers in the '80s, but the actual name "West Coast offense" was apparently only popularized when Wade Phillips began coaching the Broncos in 1993: --------- Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), Mar 13, 1993, p. 1C "Gibbs, Bill Walsh and Dick Vermeil come from that same Sid Gilman-passing-game, West Coast-style football. Bill went one way with it, with the quickness and movement approach, and Joe went the other, by going with brute force that would set up the passing game. But they are from that same school." --------- Los Angeles Times, Aug 8, 1993, p. 7 Some call it the West Coast offense. Others, the Bill Walsh offense. Still others, the Joe Montana offense. Those who have been forced to play against it have been known to call it things unprintable in a family newspaper. The basic elements are simple: Use split backs, two wide receivers and a tight end. Spread the offense out evenly, using all five as receivers. Stick to a short dropback by the quarterback, a quick attack and short passes. And make the personnel fit the game plan rather than vice versa. --------- St. Petersburg Times (Florida), Aug 27, 1993, p. 6G Denver Coach: Wade Phillips (first season). 1992 record: 8-8, 3rd in AFC West. Will win division if: The new "West Coast" offense lets Elway go coast to coast. --------- Seattle Times, Sep 2, 1993, p. D5 For instance, X's and O's. They're overrated, Phillips said. Yes, the Broncos have gone to the "West Coast" offense popularized by Bill Walsh. But the main reason is to better utilize Elway, the team's best player. --------- New York Times, Sep 5, 1993, p. S11 The reins have been loosened on quarterback John Elway now that Wade Phillips, the former defensive coordinator, is coaching the team. Phillips took over for Dan Reeves, who was fired at the end of last season, and installed what he calls the "West Coast" offense, which is a short passing game similar to what San Francisco runs. --------- --Ben Zimmer From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 10 23:08:50 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:08:50 -0800 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6C1@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook > seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a > cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his > listings in the IMDB. > >> -----Original Message----- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: paulzjoh >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for "gunsel". so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the insiders. arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 23:17:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:17:07 -0800 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: Seems to me that "gunsel" was already in Hammett's 1929 novel, and that the emergent sense of "gunman" owes a lot to the 1941 film. A "gunsel" was, essentially, a "raw youth" and did not always imply homosexuality. Cf. the precisely similar range of meanings attached to "punk." The latter is almost unquestionably from the 16th-century term for a prostitute or kept mistress - eventually extended in prison and similar situations to young men. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: gunsel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook > seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a > cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his > listings in the IMDB. > >> -----Original Message----- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: paulzjoh >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for "gunsel". so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the insiders. arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 10 23:32:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:32:25 -0800 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: The choice of the names "Greene" and "Gunsel" may be intentional, since both carried connotations of naivete or foolishness. On a mere hunch, I checked the Net for evidence of a vaudeville tean named "Gunsel and Greene" but found nothing. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: gunsel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook > seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a > cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his > listings in the IMDB. > >> -----Original Message----- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: paulzjoh >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for "gunsel". so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the insiders. arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jan 11 00:51:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:48 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: -Ben Zimmer writes: >1843 _Godey's Lady's Book_ 27 (Aug.) 53/2 "She shant teach me. She shant!" >"Nor me neither, I'd spit at her!" >This is in dialogue between children (who also use "ain't"), so it appears >that it was already understood as a non-standard usage. ~~~~~~~~~ Had the disparagement of "ain't" begun that early? I thought it was more a twentieth century enterprise. A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 11 00:38:33 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:38:33 -0800 Subject: humbling moment: (was Re: technically correct subject-verb agreement) In-Reply-To: <8F092D4A-5B6F-11D9-ADF0-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2004, at 1:04 PM, i wrote: > On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:50 AM, i wrote: > >>>>> Going to his house was what I lived for. There were liquor, music, >>>>> and >>>>> a strong desire for my body. >> >> just to remind people: this isn't a vote on what the "real" grammar of >> english is, or should be... looking for something else, today i checked the MWDEU entry for "there is, there are" and discovered that this is a well-traveled road. ----- ...when a compound subject follows the verb and the first element is singular, we find mixed usage--the verb may either be singular or plural. Jespersen... explains the singular verb as a case of attraction of the verb to the first subject, and illustrates it... from Shakespeare... Perrin & Ebbitt 1972 also suggests that many writers feel the plural verb is awkward before a singular noun, and Bryant 1962 cites studies that show the singular verb is much more common in standard English. ----- nothing new, etc. meanwhile, geoff pullum writes to say that most of the neat split infinitive data i've been assembling were laid out in the syntax volume of Curme's grammar (1931). arnold From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Jan 11 01:35:17 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:35:17 -0600 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <20050110231707.48511.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I remember the phrase "punked out" as prison slang for forcing someone to take the subservient role in a homosexual relationship. Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Seems to me that "gunsel" was already in Hammett's 1929 novel, and that the emergent sense of "gunman" owes a lot to the 1941 film. A "gunsel" was, essentially, a "raw youth" and did not always imply homosexuality. > >Cf. the precisely similar range of meanings attached to "punk." The latter is almost unquestionably from the 16th-century term for a prostitute or kept mistress - eventually extended in prison and similar situations to young men. > >JL > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: gunsel >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: > > > >>As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But Cook >>seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a >>cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his >>listings in the IMDB. >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: paulzjoh >>> >>> > > > >>>Subject: Re: gunsel >>>-------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >>>When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >>>homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >>>TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. >>> >>> > >as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the 'catamite' >attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they >could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them >realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect >it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this >seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for >"gunsel". > >so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of >deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent >meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the >insiders. > >arnold > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! > > > > From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jan 11 01:43:21 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:43:21 -0800 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Saw this in today's news: "Calif. Principal Bans 'Freak Dancing'", AP, 10 Jan 2005: "But he said the students continued "freak dancing," a form of sexually suggestive dancing that involves grinding the hips and pelvic area." Google Groups has several hundred hits (it's hard to count because the search turns up many other senses). The earliest is from 13 Aug 1998 in rec.sport.pro-wrestling.fantasy: "At that Terry Fletcher gets up from the table and walks back to where the women are freak dancing with each other. Terry smiles and jumps in the middle of all of them." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 01:59:15 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:59:15 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Usually it's just "freaking." Reads like the principal's not that with it. Here's a hit from 1993: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/ f1f14272b9f282b7?dmode=source "A woman here at work told me her 7th grade daughter came home from her first dance and said the school principal had chastised her for freaking while dancing with her partner. When asked what freaking meant, her daughter would not say. Does anybody know the meaning of freaking in this context?" Grant Barrett On Jan 10, 2005, at 20:43, Dave Wilton wrote: > Saw this in today's news: > > "Calif. Principal Bans 'Freak Dancing'", AP, 10 Jan 2005: > > "But he said the students continued "freak dancing," a form of > sexually suggestive dancing that involves grinding the hips and pelvic > area." > > Google Groups has several hundred hits (it's hard to count because the > search turns up many other senses). The earliest is from 13 Aug 1998 > in rec.sport.pro-wrestling.fantasy: > > "At that Terry Fletcher gets up from the table and walks back to where > the women are freak dancing with each other. Terry smiles and jumps in > the middle of all of them." > > --Dave Wilton > dave at wilton.net > http://www.wilton.net > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 02:07:19 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:07:19 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <20050107134144.R18506@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Re: > >I must >I must >I must develop a bust. >I better >I better >So I can wear a sweater. >We must, we must >increase the size of our bust >the bigger the better >the tighter the sweater >the boys depend on us and so on... This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm wondering is what we *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 02:16:39 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:16:39 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <18493.69.142.143.59.1105394533.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 5:02 PM -0500 1/10/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has >undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion >amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner >introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I >believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that >some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing >usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage >is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the >prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >"nauseated" and "nauseating". > In other cases, though, no skunking seems to have applied. "Peruse" has pretty much shifted over from "read carefully" to "skim", as far as I can tell, despite the fact that the now prevailing use is still disparaged by prescriptivists (including 66% of us distinguished AHD4 usage panelists) while the "etymological" meaning is mostly ignored by those other than lexicographers and purists, and also despite the fact that in the former meaning "peruse" has no obvious synonym while in the latter it's a synonym of "skim". larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jan 11 02:44:11 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:44:11 -0600 Subject: "talking American" program; slang as a valuable part of language Message-ID: Original message from Karen (Educational CyberPlayGround), Jan. 10, 2005):---------- > Hi Gerald, [...] > Worthy words are the legitimate words used by society, > found in the dictionary and on the SAT. These are the words getting you into or keeping you out of college. > Only real and worthy words are valued by educated, cultured people. > > I imagine Mr. Simon is saying that legitimizing slang will erode culture because no matter what this isn't going to be found on the SAT and used by a cultured class of people. [...] > I think he feels that folks who > try to give slang some kind of legitimacy > aren't helping society strive toward being > educated but instead promote ignorance > which means erosion of culture. [...] *************** Dear Karen, Mr. Simon falls down by overstating the need to avoid slang. There's a time and place for everything, and if by some magic stroke words/expressions like "vamoose," "gung ho," "Eureka!", "pull it off" (succeed), "shyster," "don't give a hoot in a rainbarrel," "turkey" (abject failure), "have a screw loose," "amscray" could suddenly be removed from our language, English would be the poorer for it. And certainly, people who record or study where our language comes from deserve better than to be labeled the curse of our race. I have a doctorate, am a full professor, and have written extensively on etymology. And yet, when leaving my office for the day, if I say (as I sometimes do), "I'm gonna vamoose the ranch," no one has yet reacted as if the cultural level of my department has just declined. I suppose it's a bit like adding spice to one's cooking. Overdo it, and the dinner is spoiled. Do it in moderation, and the dinner is enhanced. With best wishes, Gerald P.S. William Buckley--certainly as cultured an individual as one could hope to find-- once wrote a column with the title "Ixnay." (I believe it was in the 1970s; I have a copy somewhere in my notes.) "Ixnay," of course, is pig Latin for "nix," itself slang. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 03:04:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:04:37 -0500 Subject: Antedating of pop : "to pay for" Message-ID: OED: pop. v. "to pay for" 1959 From the recitation, "After-Hours Joint," recorded by Jimmy Coe on the Delmark label, 1953: Hey, bar-waitress! Give everybody a drink! 'Cause I'm popping This mewning (sic, i.e. "morning")! -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 04:33:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:33:36 -0500 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WRT "punk," far as long as I can remember - from the early '40's - "punk" has always been the Black-English equivalent of "fag" in the sense of "most insulting term applicable to homosexuals." Its use in the movies with only the meaning of "callow youth" was simply not understood and always brought forth peals of inappropriate laughter from the audiences in the segregated movie houses of my youth. E.g., remember the scene in Red River in which John Wayne says to Montgomery Clift, "You young punk"? It had the audience of the Dugout (actually, the Douglas) rolling in the aisles. -Wilson Gray On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:35 PM, paulzjoh wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: gunsel > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I remember the phrase "punked out" as prison slang for forcing someone > to take the subservient role in a homosexual relationship. > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Seems to me that "gunsel" was already in Hammett's 1929 novel, and >> that the emergent sense of "gunman" owes a lot to the 1941 film. A >> "gunsel" was, essentially, a "raw youth" and did not always imply >> homosexuality. >> >> Cf. the precisely similar range of meanings attached to "punk." The >> latter is almost unquestionably from the 16th-century term for a >> prostitute or kept mistress - eventually extended in prison and >> similar situations to young men. >> >> JL >> >> "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Bill Mullins wrote: >> >> >> >>> As far as "The Maltese Falcon" goes, I believe you are right. But >>> Cook >>> seems to be the stereotype of the second OED defintion, as well -- a >>> cheap hood whose job it is to shoot, or get shot. Check out his >>> listings in the IMDB. >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: paulzjoh >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: gunsel >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> I thought that Bogart was calling Cook a faggot when he said gunsel. >>>> When I first saw the movie I was too young to know about >>>> homosexuality, little else sex, but rewatching the movie on >>>> TV, it seems that there is a Hollywood euphuism at work there. >>>> >>>> >> >> as i understand the situation, the writers wanted to get the >> 'catamite' >> attribution across, but were having trouble finding an expression they >> could get past the studio. then the yiddishly knowledgable among them >> realized that "gunsel" might work, because most viewers would connect >> it to "gun", the character Wilmer being a gun-toting hoodlum. this >> seems to have succeeded, and produced a 'gunslinger' reading for >> "gunsel". >> >> so, not euphemism (or euphuism, for that matter), but a kind of >> deliberate invitation to misunderstanding, conveying one apparent >> meaning to most people while getting another meaning across to the >> insiders. >> >> arnold >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! >> >> >> >> > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 04:58:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:58:25 -0500 Subject: "me neither" (1882)--("Nor me neither" is a blend) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:48 -0500, sagehen wrote: >-Ben Zimmer writes: >>1843 _Godey's Lady's Book_ 27 (Aug.) 53/2 "She shant teach me. She shant!" >>"Nor me neither, I'd spit at her!" > >>This is in dialogue between children (who also use "ain't"), so it appears >>that it was already understood as a non-standard usage. >~~~~~~~~~ >Had the disparagement of "ain't" begun that early? I thought it was more >a twentieth century enterprise. Depends on what you mean by "disparagement". Nineteenth-century lexicographers, if they mentioned "ain't" (or the earlier spelling "an't") at all, noted that it was non-standard. Webster's 1828 dictionary has: ĀNT, in our vulgar dialect, as in the phrases, I _ānt,_ you _ānt_, he _ānt_, we _ānt_, & c., is undoubtedly a contraction of the Danish _er_, _ere_, the substantive verb, in the present tense of the Indicative Mode, and _not_, I _er-not_, we _ere-not_, he _er-not_, or of the Swedish _ar_, the same verb, Infinitive _vara_, to be. These phrases are doubtless legitimate remains of the Gothic dialect. In case that doesn't display properly for everyone, Webster gives the spelling as with a macron, apparently indicating a pronunciation of /eInt/. See: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/1648e4fe47c3a616?dmode=source And this disparaging definition can still be found in the OED: _an't_ contraction of _are n't_, _are not_; colloquially for _am not_; and in illiterate or dialect speech for _is not_, _has not_ (_han't_). A later and still more illiterate form is AINT, q.v. The definition for "ain't" was updated for OED2, but this one looks like it has remained unaltered from the original A-Ant fascicle of 1884. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 05:49:38 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:49:38 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:59:15 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >Usually it's just "freaking." Reads like the principal's not that with >it. Here's a hit from 1993: > >http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/ >f1f14272b9f282b7?dmode=source > >"A woman here at work told me her 7th grade daughter came home from her >first dance and said the school principal had chastised her for >freaking while dancing with her partner. When asked what freaking >meant, her daughter would not say. Does anybody know the meaning of >freaking in this context?" Earlier in '93, Patrick Atoon's Rap Dictionary (now at ) defined "freak" as "dance in a provocative way": http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.rap/msg/b5c56d623381de70 But this all goes back about 15 years earlier to the disco dance craze called "the Freak", immortalized by Chic's 1978 hit "Le Freak". From an interview with Chic's Nile Rodgers: --------- http://www.superseventies.com/1979_2singles.html "At that time, Studio 54 was real big in New York," recalled Nile. "A lot of people tried to get into the club, but couldn't. It was real popular with models and people who are not inhibited, more or less. They came out late at night after working all day and were just having fun. Anyway, they had this dance they called the Freak, and it was very, very unorthodox." In order to Freak, two dancers bend at the knees, spread their legs, and bump their pelvises together, in time to the music. "The public began to pick up on it, and they made a more 'commercial' Freak. That's what we saw in the discos and started to write about. We thought it could be like the Twist. Everyone said, 'You're crazy. There'll never be another dance craze in the U.S.' But we wrote the song anyway to go along with the dance. "At first, reaction was bad because of the word "freak." A lot of stations just didn't want that word on the radio. But suddenly they just started playing it, and within two or three weeks it had sold over a million copies." --------- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 08:53:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:53:58 -0500 Subject: interrogation techniques (Mutt & Jeff, good cop/bad cop, etc.) Message-ID: http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_terrorists.html City Journal, Winter 2005 Army doctrine gives interrogators 16 "approaches" to induce prisoners of war to divulge critical information. Sporting names like "Pride and Ego Down" and "Fear Up Harsh," these approaches aim to exploit a detainee's self-love, allegiance to or resentment of comrades, or sense of futility. Applied in the right combination, they will work on nearly everyone, the intelligence soldiers had learned in their training. ... Similar restrictions ? a specific finding of military necessity and notice to Rumsfeld ? applied to other tried-and-true army psychological techniques. These included "Pride and Ego Down" ? attacking a detainee's pride to goad him into revealing critical information ? as well as "Mutt and Jeff," the classic good cop?bad cop routine of countless police shows. OED3 has a first cite of 1974 for "Mutt and Jeff (routine)" in the interrogation sense. Proquest has it a decade earlier: ------- 1964 _Washington Post_ 30 Aug. A13/1 An interesting sidelight on how FBI agents operate was described to a traveler by a Philadelphia businessman. According to his story, one of the FBI interrogation techniques is the old "Mutt and Jeff" routine taught by Army Intelligence. It operates this way: One agent abuses his subject, firing tough questions and snide accusations. Then the other agent, who acts as the higher-ranking of the two, reprimands his partner and treats his subject with kid gloves. He might even talk about fishing and football to try to gain the subject's confidence, and then will slip in the pertinent questions. ------- I don't see anything in OED or HDAS for "good cop/bad cop (routine)". Surprisingly, I couldn't find any cites before 1973-74, in two NY Times articles by Leslie Gelb about negotiations with Israel made by Henry Kissinger and James Schlesinger: ------- 1973 _New York Times_ 21 Oct. Sec. 4 (Week in Review) 1/5 Was this a bad cop-good cop routine? Was Mr. Kissinger fixing the diplomatic deal, but keeping Mr. Schlesinger in reserve as a threat to keep the Soviets from taking chances? ------- 1974 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. (Magazine) 44/4 But another version is that the two Secretaries arranged to play a good cop-bad cop routine with the Israelis. ------- As for "pride and ego up/down" and "fear up/down", that's Army lingo that has only turned up in post-9/11 reporting. This WSJ article on the Army's interrogation school apparently first brought the terms to light: ------- Wall Street Journal, Apr 26, 2002, p. A1 (Proquest) "Fear-up" employs "heavy-handed, table-banging violence," an Army field manual says. "The interrogator behaves in a heavy, overpowering manner with a loud and threatening voice" and may "throw objects across the room to heighten the source's implanted feelings of fear." ... "Fear-down," in contrast, targets terrified prisoners. Interrogators try to calm them, asking about personal or family life, eventually interjecting the questions they really want answered. ... When all else fails, there's "pride and ego down," where interrogators belittle a prisoner's "loyalty, intelligence, abilities, leadership qualities, slovenly appearance or any other perceived weakness," the manual says. ... Depending on their personality, age and physical bearing, interrogators tend to prefer different approaches. "My favorite is 'pride and ego up,'" says Spc. Carrie Clark, 26, of Stoneboro, Pa., because "you have to make them feel good, that you're their best friend." In it, a prisoner thought to have been "looked down upon for a long time" is flattered and made to feel that by providing information, he can "show someone that he does indeed have some 'brains,'" the manual says. ------- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 11 11:13:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:13:23 EST Subject: "He's just not that into you" Message-ID: There's nothing like working 8:30 a.m. to 7 p.m. again in a room with no air. If I do this for twenty five years and save up every writing dollar I've ever earned, maybe I could afford a trip to the ADS meeting in Oakland. ... The local newspapers are advertising the signings of baseball players as "Big Unit in the Big Apple" and "Beltran in the Big Apple." So I did a little math, and to make the same money as Carlos Beltran (who strikes out over 100 times a year and who hit .258 last year), I'd have to work every day for 10,000 years! ... So I called my sister and wished my niece a happy 16th birthday; my sister had bought her a book, HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. And you swear you're gonna kill yourself, but you have to wait another month for the Chicago Tribune ombudsman to get back to you to correct what you never said. ... Anyway, the phrase "he's just not that into you" supposedly comes from SEX AND THE CITY. The Atlanta Rhythm Section song "So Into You" was very popular in the 1970s. I found one Google Groups 1999 hit, but otherwise not much. ... ... ... ... (_WWW.AMAZON.COM_ (http://www.AMAZON.COM) ) ... He's Just Not That Into You: The No-Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys by _Greg Behrendt_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Greg%20Behrendt/002-9917336-6364062) , _Liz Tuccillo_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Liz%2 0Tuccillo/002-9917336-6364062) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Approaches and/or Openers??_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.seduction.fast/browse_frm/thread/27b4b487aed4dc63/33990c448df2d894?q="not+that+into+y ou"&_done=/groups?q="not+that+into+you"&start=40&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8& c2coff=1&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#33990c448df2d894) ... If she doesn't nibble, or gives a brief answer, she's probably not that into you and you'll have to do all the work. That's just one example. ... _alt.seduction.fast_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.seduction.fast) - Dec 21 1999, 4:21 pm by Outfoxing The Foxes - 10 messages - 6 authors ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Atlanta Rhythm Section lyrics - So Into You_ (http://www.letssingit.com/atlanta-rhythm-section-so-into-you-z8jl3tn.html) [Ad] A Atlanta Rhythm Section music So Into You lyrics. lyrics, discussion, ... So Into You. by Atlanta Rhythm Section. Album, : Submitted by, : Dogboy. ... www.letssingit.com/ atlanta-rhythm-section-so-into-you-z8jl3tn.html - 10k - ... Hoping you'll get into me I am so into you I can't think of nothing else I am so into you I can't think of nothing else Thinking how it's going to be Whenever I get you next to me It's gonna be good, dont you know >From your head to your toe Gonna love you all over, over and over Me into you, you into me, me into you I am so into you I am so into you, ooh When you walked into the room There was voodoo in the vibes I was captured by your style But I could not catch your eyes Now I stand here helplessly Hoping you'll get into me From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 11 11:49:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:49:52 -0500 Subject: interrogation techniques (Mutt & Jeff, good cop/bad cop, etc.) Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:53:58 -0500, I wrote: >I don't see anything in OED or HDAS for "good cop/bad cop (routine)". >Surprisingly, I couldn't find any cites before 1973-74, in two NY Times >articles by Leslie Gelb about negotiations with Israel made by Henry >Kissinger and James Schlesinger: > >------- >1973 _New York Times_ 21 Oct. Sec. 4 (Week in Review) 1/5 Was this a bad >cop-good cop routine? Was Mr. Kissinger fixing the diplomatic deal, but >keeping Mr. Schlesinger in reserve as a threat to keep the Soviets from >taking chances? >------- >1974 _New York Times_ 4 Aug. (Magazine) 44/4 But another version is that >the two Secretaries arranged to play a good cop-bad cop routine with the >Israelis. >------- There are earlier cites for "good guy/bad guy"... 1963 _New York Times_ 7 Nov. 42/7 Other detectives interviewed explained that one carryover of the past was still used today, but to a much greater extent. It is called "good guy-bad guy." Under this system, a "tough" detective begins questioning an uncooperative prisoner. ... As the tough, or "bad guy," appears about to strike the prisoner, the "good guy" comes into the picture. He remonstrates with the bad guy and says he will take over the case. --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jan 11 12:55:44 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:55:44 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"He's=20just=20not=20that?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20into=20you"?= Message-ID: Barry, I' sooo into you, and apparently so are Alliyah (1992) and, more recently, Brit. Spears (see Google). (NOTE: "Na na na na na na!!!" is THE SONG's lyrics, not my comment on Barry's complaints about his income--by the way, who pays for all those trips to exotic places, Barry? Does New York Traffic Court pay for eating trips? You were wise to skip Oakland, though, if all you were interested in was food. There are MUCH better Vietnamese restaurants in Orlando, and much better Mexican restaurants in Durham, North Carolina.) AALIYAH LYRICS "I'm So Into You" [Chorus] I'm so into you I'm so into you I'm so into you I'm so into you [Verse 1] Baby can't you see I got a thing for you I really like the way you do the things you do Take control of me fullfill my fantasies Here's my page and number won't you get with me [Bridge] It's just the little things you do that turns me on You really turn me on And you got it goin' on I'm into you [chorus] [verse 2] My dear I feel so weak you knock me off my feet And it's good to know you love me just for me I'll be here all the time I'll never let you go There is something that I have to let you know [bridge] [chorus] [rap] Well can't you see Aaliyah's got a thing for you And the second chapter like the things you do So pull up to my bumper and I'll ride wit' you And let's go rollin' down a block or two Now add a little bass to the E Q but Now all of a sudden I gotta whisper sweet little nothing Aaliyah told me to tell you to call her (I'm so into you) [chorus till fade...] Na na na na na na na Na na na na na na na Na na na na na na na Na na na na na na!!! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 14:08:59 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:08:59 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: <51934.69.142.143.59.1105422578.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 00:49, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > But this all goes back about 15 years earlier to the disco dance craze > called "the Freak", immortalized by Chic's 1978 hit "Le Freak". From > an interview with Chic's Nile Rodgers: Which in turn seems to be a natural off-shoot of the various sexually related forms of "freak" which predate the song. I'd be interested to see if we can uncover a freaking = dancing before Chic's super disco hit. Grant Barrett From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 14:15:50 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:15:50 -0500 Subject: "He's just not that into you" In-Reply-To: <74.4ad6059d.2f1526d0@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine with one another, but he missed good Thai and excellent bistro fare in Oakland (with no SF hype or prices). He's right about the Vietnamese; I didn't try the Mexican. dInIs >Barry, I' sooo into you, and apparently so are Alliyah (1992) and, more >recently, Brit. Spears (see Google). (NOTE: "Na na na na na na!!!" >is THE SONG's >lyrics, not my comment on Barry's complaints about his income--by the way, who >pays for all those trips to exotic places, Barry? Does New York Traffic Court >pay for eating trips? You were wise to skip Oakland, though, if all you were >interested in was food. There are MUCH better Vietnamese restaurants >in Orlando, >and much better Mexican restaurants in Durham, North Carolina.) > > > >AALIYAH LYRICS > >"I'm So Into You" > >[Chorus] > >I'm so into you >I'm so into you >I'm so into you >I'm so into you > >[Verse 1] > >Baby can't you see I got a thing for you >I really like the way you do the things you do >Take control of me fullfill my fantasies >Here's my page and number won't you get with me > >[Bridge] >It's just the little things you do that turns me on >You really turn me on >And you got it goin' on I'm into you > >[chorus] > >[verse 2] > >My dear I feel so weak you knock me off my feet >And it's good to know you love me just for me >I'll be here all the time I'll never let you go >There is something that I have to let you know > >[bridge] > >[chorus] > >[rap] >Well can't you see Aaliyah's got a thing for you >And the second chapter like the things you do >So pull up to my bumper and I'll ride wit' you >And let's go rollin' down a block or two >Now add a little bass to the E Q but >Now all of a sudden I gotta whisper sweet little nothing >Aaliyah told me to tell you to call her >(I'm so into you) > >[chorus till fade...] > >Na na na na na na na >Na na na na na na na >Na na na na na na na >Na na na na na na!!! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 11 14:47:00 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:47:00 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: Nah, we depended on the girls. Doubtless it would have been different if the penis were a muscle and became larger when exercised. Then we would have had something to sing about. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:07 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Re: > >I must >I must >I must develop a bust. >I better >I better >So I can wear a sweater. >We must, we must >increase the size of our bust >the bigger the better >the tighter the sweater >the boys depend on us and so on... This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm wondering is what we *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. larry From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 16:18:40 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:40 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: This interesting guestbook was posted to BoingBoing.net yesterday: http://www.webgenie.com/Software/Guestar/Evaluation/Guestbooks/ anne901753785.html It seems to be in-house messages passed between dispatchers at an an escort service, which clearly seems to be a a prostitution ring. It also seems to be authentic. Only one interesting lexical item jumped out: POC. "Pissed off customer" was my first guess, but given the messages, it seems to be an acronym for some sort of undercover cop. Any ideas what it might mean? Here are the relevant parts: "There was a blacklist of about a combination of 20 either dangerous guys or POCS that was on the wall at the old office." "Everyone - important - it's POC night - thursdays are BAD nights. Be very, very careful. Verify EVERYONE, double check - talk to the guys on the phone for a minute and try to get a feeling about them before sending someone. Pay special attention to Coral Springs hotels, LaQuinta, etc. Have the girls check ROUND-TRIP plane tickets AND licences, if a guy is from around here and is at a hotel, that should raise a red flag - why is he not at his residence?? Also, there should be suitcases around and stuff in the room and in the bathroom. Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive hotels. BE CAREFUL!!! DO NOT SEND ANYONE IF YOU HAVE 1 TINK INKLING OF SOMETHING FISHY. BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY." "Be careful of a DAVID HARTSHORN possible POC. He has a British accent and I verified him at the hotel but when Sasha got there she suspected he that he was POC (no toiletries, luggage, didn't initiate and finally arguing about the Intent form.) He's very charming on the phone." "Also, beware of JOHN GRAGG.. we think he's a POC and when I called to verify his 2hr. appt. w/Meisha tonight he had checked out." "The call for Mackenzie at the La Quinta in Coral Springs is bad news. I did not speak to the guy, but it is Thursday night - POC night and that hotel is one of the most dangerous and the POCS have been trying to get Mackenzie for the longest time, so I'm not comfortable sending anyone there, especially tonight, but he thinks she is showing up." "Sara, that guy that might be a POC called again....Bill Caccia....I told him I was sending over Vicki and Mackenzie again but, of course, I won't send them." "DO NOT BOOK A BILL CIACCIA 2 GIRL CALL MIGHT BE POC." "Sara got a possible 'poc' call, so be on the lookout." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Jan 11 14:54:02 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:54:02 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: Larry Horn wrote:<> You don't remember, because there wasn't any thing more dithyrambic than "No pain, no gain". <> "If you would see his monument, look around." Se?n Fitzpatrick Beer...not just for breakfast anymore. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 11 16:44:26 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:44:26 -0500 Subject: "Hinglish" (Hindi-English) Message-ID: article on "Hinglish"; reference found on the LINGUIST List A Hindi-English Jumble, Spoken By 350 Million http://csmonitor.com/2004/1123/p01s03-wosc.html From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jan 11 16:47:38 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:47:38 -0800 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <18493.69.142.143.59.1105394533.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after an absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but it seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in addition to its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it pronounced other than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the other words in question pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and "naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to high school with, who was British, was famous for saying "naw-she-ated," but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers I've heard--even very recently--were not all British. Peter Mc. --On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has > undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion > amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner > introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I > believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that > some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing > usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage > is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the > prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided > entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of > "nauseated" and "nauseating". ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 16:58:32 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:58:32 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1105433258@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Peter, Then you never heard me and a bunch of my kind who all use -zh- rather than -sh-. It's certainly a LH (i.e, Lowland Hillbilly) form but may have wider distribution. dInIs >I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after an >absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but it >seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in addition to >its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it pronounced other >than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the other words in question >pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and "naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to >high school with, who was British, was famous for saying "naw-she-ated," >but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers I've heard--even very recently--were >not all British. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: > >>In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that has >>undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of confusion >>amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. Bryan A. Garner >>introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern American Usage_ (I >>believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). Garner notes that >>some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if the new, prevailing >>usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect and the earlier usage >>is no longer generally understood by anyone other than the >>prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >>entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >>"nauseated" and "nauseating". > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:03:53 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:53 -0600 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: [...]Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive hotels. [...] > ---------- > Check Google under "POC, prostitution." It looks like "points of contact." Gerald Cohen From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 17:15:39 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw that on the Acronym Finder, too, but isn't it too generic? It's clear the girls are avoiding the "POCs," which makes no sense if it's "points of contact." It does, however, make me think that it's something similar: that the POCs aren't dangerous but are infatuated with the girls. But why Thursday? Why should Thursday be POC night? It's clear they have customer contact every night of the week. Grant Barrett On Jan 11, 2005, at 12:03, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > [...]Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive > hotels. [...] >> ---------- >> > Check Google under "POC, prostitution." It looks like "points > of contact." > > Gerald Cohen > From gd2 at NYU.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:21:00 2005 From: gd2 at NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: well, look at the things said about poc's in what was first posted -- it sounds as if these are tips for avoiding being entrapped by undercover cops -- so mightn't poc's be an acronym for something like 'police officer customers' ??? -- just a thought... -- maybe for shift/overtime/staffing reasons thursdays are a common undercover entrapment night, at least in the jursidiction in question? greg downing At 12:15 PM 1/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: > I saw that on the Acronym Finder, too, but isn't it too generic? It's >clear the girls are avoiding the "POCs," which makes no sense if it's >"points of contact." It does, however, make me think that it's >something similar: that the POCs aren't dangerous but are infatuated >with the girls. But why Thursday? Why should Thursday be POC night? >It's clear they have customer contact every night of the week. > >Grant Barrett > >On Jan 11, 2005, at 12:03, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > >> [...]Less expensive hotels are used for POCS, usually not expensive >> hotels. [...] >>> ---------- >>> >> Check Google under "POC, prostitution." It looks like "points >> of contact." >> >> Gerald Cohen >> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:36:06 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:36:06 -0500 Subject: aff Message-ID: what is the meaning of this abbreviation, which I keep seeing on the Web? This set of ads is verbatim: Ads by Goooooogle Peanuts Brown for Sale. New & used Peanuts Brown. aff Check out the deals now! <----- www.ebay.com Cat Comics for cat owners Check out my daily comics Why not laugh a little today Mows.com Search for Peanuts Gang Snoopy at eBay Millions of items daily. Aff <----- www.ebay.com Free Cartoons Here Download and watch Free Cartoons All the cartoons you'll ever need! Freeze.com -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jan 11 17:38:21 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:38:21 -0800 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I'm sure I've heard "naw-zhe-ated" as well as "naw-ze-ated," though from different speakers. What strikes me is hearing "nawshus" from speakers the rest of whose speech would lead me to expect "naw-ze-ated" rather than "naw-she-ated," since they weren't British. I assume "naw-zhe-ated" speakers would use the -zh- consistently (i.e., "naw-zhe-ous" or "nawzhus"). Peter --On Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:58 AM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Peter, > > Then you never heard me and a bunch of my kind who all use -zh- > rather than -sh-. It's certainly a LH (i.e, Lowland Hillbilly) form > but may have wider distribution. > > dInIs > > > >> I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after >> an absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but >> it seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in >> addition to its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it >> pronounced other than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the >> other words in question pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and >> "naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to high school with, who was British, was >> famous for saying "naw-she-ated," but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers >> I've heard--even very recently--were not all British. >> >> Peter Mc. >> >> --On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer >> wrote: >> >>> In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that >>> has undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of >>> confusion amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. >>> Bryan A. Garner introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern >>> American Usage_ (I believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). >>> Garner notes that some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if >>> the new, prevailing usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect >>> and the earlier usage is no longer generally understood by anyone other >>> than the >>> prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >>> entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >>> "nauseated" and "nauseating". >> >> >> >> ***************************************************************** >> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 17:52:30 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:52:30 -0500 Subject: aff In-Reply-To: <20050111123515.P56597@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I believe it's for "affiliate," meaning the ad was placed by someone who gets a cut of any business they generate for a third party. Grant Barrett On Jan 11, 2005, at 12:36, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > what is the meaning of this abbreviation, which I keep seeing on the > Web? This set of ads is verbatim: > Ads by Goooooogle Peanuts Brown for Sale. New & used Peanuts Brown. > aff Check out the deals now! From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 18:05:53 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:05:53 -0500 Subject: nauseous = nauseated (1885) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1105436301@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Peter, My point was for the pronunciation of nauseous with =zh-, and I am a naw-ze-ated speaker, contrary to your prediction. dInIs >Oh, I'm sure I've heard "naw-zhe-ated" as well as "naw-ze-ated," though >from different speakers. What strikes me is hearing "nawshus" from >speakers the rest of whose speech would lead me to expect "naw-ze-ated" >rather than "naw-she-ated," since they weren't British. I assume >"naw-zhe-ated" speakers would use the -zh- consistently (i.e., >"naw-zhe-ous" or "nawzhus"). > >Peter > >--On Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:58 AM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston" > wrote: > >>Peter, >> >>Then you never heard me and a bunch of my kind who all use -zh- >>rather than -sh-. It's certainly a LH (i.e, Lowland Hillbilly) form >>but may have wider distribution. >> >>dInIs >> >> >>>I came in on this discussion in progress when I rejoined the list after >>>an absence, so I apologize if this aspect has already been covered, but >>>it seems to me that "nauseous" is isolated by its pronunciation in >>>addition to its other peculiarities. I don't recall ever hearing it >>>pronounced other than "nawshus," whereas I don't recall hearing the >>>other words in question pronounced other than "naw-ze-ating" and >>>"naw-ze-ated." A kid I went to high school with, who was British, was >>>famous for saying "naw-she-ated," but I'm sure the "nawshus" pronouncers >>>I've heard--even very recently--were not all British. >>> >>>Peter Mc. >>> >>>--On Monday, January 10, 2005 5:02 PM -0500 Benjamin Zimmer >>> wrote: >>> >>>>In other words, "nauseous" has become a "skunked word" -- a word that >>>>has undergone a recent semantic shift and is therefore a source of >>>>confusion amongst those unsure of which sense is the accepted one. >>>>Bryan A. Garner introduced the idea of "skunked words" in his _Modern >>>>American Usage_ (I believe "nauseous" is a prime example on his list). >>>>Garner notes that some anxious speakers simply avoid skunked words if >>>>the new, prevailing usage is disparaged by prescriptivists as incorrect >>>>and the earlier usage is no longer generally understood by anyone other >>>>than the >>>>prescriptivists. In the case of "nauseous", the word can be avoided >>>>entirely because the speaker has recourse to the unambiguous choices of >>>>"nauseated" and "nauseating". >>> >>> >>> >>>***************************************************************** >>>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From orinkh at CARR.ORG Tue Jan 11 17:54:50 2005 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:54:50 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: > I saw that on the Acronym Finder, too, but isn't it too generic? It's >clear the girls are avoiding the "POCs," which makes no sense if it's >"points of contact." It does, however, make me think that it's >something similar: that the POCs aren't dangerous but are infatuated >with the girls. But why Thursday? Why should Thursday be POC night? >It's clear they have customer contact every night of the week. > >Grant Barrett > Tempting to think that it might be "plainclothes officer," except why wouldn't they use PCO (other than that it's not pronounceable as a monosyllable?). As for Thursdays: in order to spoil all the weekend trade? Orin Hargraves (who doesn't seem to have enough to do this afternoon) From dacolb at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 11 18:07:10 2005 From: dacolb at GMAIL.COM (David Colburn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:07:10 -0800 Subject: POC: a cop term? In-Reply-To: <-7786455297135469533@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: POC is COP backwards. Any chance that it's simply thinly-veiled "code" for "cop"? Just a thought. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 18:34:25 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:34:25 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: gunsel > ---------------------------------------------------------- > E.g., remember the > scene in Red River in which John Wayne says to Montgomery > Clift, "You young punk"? It had the audience of the Dugout > (actually, the Douglas) rolling in the aisles. Given what is now common knowledge about Clift, but was probably "on the down low" back then, maybe the Duke was expressing a double meaning??? From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 19:18:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:18:34 -0500 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 1:34 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: gunsel > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: gunsel >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> E.g., remember the >> scene in Red River in which John Wayne says to Montgomery >> Clift, "You young punk"? It had the audience of the Dugout >> (actually, the Douglas) rolling in the aisles. > > Given what is now common knowledge about Clift, but was probably > "on the down low" back then, maybe the Duke was expressing a > double meaning??? > Yes. Even if the Duke himself had no idea, it's possible that the scriptwriter and MG got together for a little inside joke. Like the "Mongo! Santa Maria!" bit in Blazing Saddles. -Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 11 19:24:46 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:46 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's the best answer so far, given that it's the simplest and none of the people on the message board seem all that brilliant. Grant Barrett On Jan 11, 2005, at 13:07, David Colburn wrote: > POC is COP backwards. Any chance that it's simply thinly-veiled "code" > for "cop"? Just a thought. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Tue Jan 11 19:22:35 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:22:35 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: >> >Tempting to think that it might be "plainclothes officer," except why wouldn't >they use PCO (other than that it's not pronounceable as a monosyllable?). As >for Thursdays: in order to spoil all the weekend trade? > >Orin Hargraves >(who doesn't seem to have enough to do this afternoon) Why not 'police officer, covert' or 'policeman operating covertly'? Why ask this list, and not a hooker, or maybe a lawyer (who represents prostitutes, since this might be quasi-legal procedural jargon), or even, heaven help us, a cop? Oops, could this simply be 'cop' spelled backwards, so in disguise? also, where are all the puns? ('Howdoya know a poc? -by his pocmarks...') Michael McKernan From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jan 11 19:33:12 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:12 -0500 Subject: WotY in Slate Message-ID: I wrote an article about the WotY vote for _Slate_; you can see it at http://www.slate.com/id/2112150/ It was originally to be somewhat longer, so I specifically want to apologize to Allan Metcalf, Wayne Glowka, David Barnhart, and Erin McKean, whose contributions and wit now lie on the cutting-room floor. However, many ADSers are mentioned and quoted. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 19:34:48 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:34:48 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: > Yes. Even if the Duke himself had no idea, it's possible that > the scriptwriter and MG got together for a little inside > joke. Like the "Mongo! Santa Maria!" bit in Blazing Saddles. > Okay, you'll have to explain that one to me. Blazing Saddles rewards the careful viewer. I just recently found out the origin of of the name of Mel Brooks' character: Gov. William J. LePetomaine (Le Petomaine was a French music hall performer who could play tunes by expelling gas from his lower GI tract, or blow out candles from a few feet away -- them French are _so_ cultured!) From martha at FUNWORDS.COM Tue Jan 11 19:38:06 2005 From: martha at FUNWORDS.COM (Martha Barnette) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:38:06 -0500 Subject: POC: a cop term? Message-ID: A cop friend of mine in North Carolina says: >>>> I've used POC as point of contact in police work, especially when working with CI's (confidential informants). I just called a couple cop friends and asked them if they've ever heard it used in connection with a person and they have not. My best guess is that it might be a regional thing. There is a significant portion of cop jargon that is universal: CI is a good example. But there are some terms that are both regional and -- occasionally -- peculiar to that department. My best guess is that POC is some type of shorthand for "person of interest" or someone who is hot (wanted) with outstanding warrants.<<<< Wonder if the regional explanation makes sense, in much the same way that "aural brevity codes" (10-4, 10-20), mean the same thing nationwide up to a certain number (40, maybe? I forget), and then for numbers beyond that, there's a good bit of variation from department to department. Martha Barnette From katherine.martin at OUP.COM Tue Jan 11 19:58:23 2005 From: katherine.martin at OUP.COM (Martin, Katherine) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:58:23 -0500 Subject: Faro/Pharoah Message-ID: This is only tangentially related to the recent discussion about the origins of 'faro', but I thought I'd share it anyway just for the strained pun: 1905 _Ada (Indian Territory) Evening News_ 28 Dec. (newspaperarchive): "I've been reading that learned Egyptologist's account of the funeral of Rameses," said Jokely. "It's a wonder the whole place wasn't pinched." "Why?" asked Cokely. "Well, it was a Pharoah layout." [pinched = raided by the police] From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 20:41:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:41:23 -0500 Subject: gunsel In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6CA@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 1:34 PM -0600 1/11/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > Yes. Even if the Duke himself had no idea, it's possible that >> the scriptwriter and MG got together for a little inside >> joke. Like the "Mongo! Santa Maria!" bit in Blazing Saddles. >> >Okay, you'll have to explain that one to me. > >Blazing Saddles rewards the careful viewer. I just recently found out >the origin of >of the name of Mel Brooks' character: Gov. William J. LePetomaine >(Le Petomaine was a French music hall performer who could play tunes by >expelling >gas from his lower GI tract, or blow out candles from a few feet away -- >them French are _so_ cultured!) I think the governor's name must be a blend of Le Petomane (the actual sobriquet of Pujol, the professional flatulist) and ptomaine. Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 20:43:38 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:38 -0600 Subject: "whole nine yards" -- another (semi) early military cite Message-ID: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1972/jul-aug/j ames.html Transcription of an Q&A by Brigadier General Daniel (Chappie) James, Jr. The moderator, who is unnamed, opens by saying: "Ladies and gentlemen, General James indicated that he would field your questions on the full range of subject material, including race relations, public information, budgeting-the whole nine yards." The linked page is HTML, not a pdf or page image, but I suppose the transcription is accurate. The associated search feature of the magazine yields no more cites, but it is a Google search of the domain, which is not always complete. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 20:54:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:54:21 -0600 Subject: gunsel Message-ID: > > I think the governor's name must be a blend of Le Petomane > (the actual sobriquet of Pujol, the professional flatulist) > and ptomaine. > Note: "Flatulist" is not in the OED, but clearly there is a need for it . . . From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 21:01:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:01:06 -0600 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: > > This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the > material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm > wondering is what we > *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the > life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. > > larry > In _my_ eighth-grade locker room, no self-respecting boy would admit to _needing_ to increase the size of his parts. Despite any evidence in the shower to the contrary ("The water was too cold -- shrinkage!"). It would be much more likely to have heard something like "Well, you may walk up and stick it in, but I stick it in and then walk up". From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 21:14:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:14:36 -0500 Subject: "He's just not that into you" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:15 AM -0500 1/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Barry, > >Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine >with one another, but he missed good Thai and excellent bistro fare >in Oakland (with no SF hype or prices). He's right about the >Vietnamese; I didn't try the Mexican. > >dInIs > The Mexican (next to the Thai and Vietnamese), while by no means memorable, wasn't too bad, at least when accompanied by a couple of pitchers of margarita. And (semi-)pace Ron and dInIs, I found the Vietnamese fine on some dishes (especially for squidophiles and when enough sambal was squeezed on), not so on others. I was quite taken with the very nice $2 Vietnamese vegetarian subs (on Italian bread) purveyed by a nearby Chinatown luncheonette; I'm sure they have a name that--as Barry would point out, although not in so many words--needs included in the OED. Nice seeing y'all, or y'almost all. larry >>Barry, I' sooo into you, and apparently so are Alliyah (1992) and, more >>recently, Brit. Spears (see Google). (NOTE: "Na na na na na na!!!" >>is THE SONG's >>lyrics, not my comment on Barry's complaints about his income--by >>the way, who >>pays for all those trips to exotic places, Barry? Does New York Traffic Court >>pay for eating trips? You were wise to skip Oakland, though, if all you were >>interested in was food. There are MUCH better Vietnamese restaurants >>in Orlando, >>and much better Mexican restaurants in Durham, North Carolina.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 11 21:39:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:09 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6CF@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 3:01 PM -0600 1/11/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > >> This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the >> material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm >> wondering is what we >> *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the >> life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. >> >> larry >> > >In _my_ eighth-grade locker room, no self-respecting boy would admit >to _needing_ to increase the size of his parts. Despite any >evidence in the shower to the contrary ("The water was too cold -- >shrinkage!"). It would be much more likely to have heard something >like "Well, you may walk up and stick it in, but I stick it in and then >walk up". Ah, yes--shrinkage. Is that an anachronism, or did this exist as a technical term of art before that Seinfeld episode with Jerry and George, and the incredulous Elaine ("It...shrinks??!!")? L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 11 21:39:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:39:27 -0800 Subject: "Podicissinist " (Was Re: gunsel) Message-ID: Anthony Burgess referred to such performers as "podicissinists." He seemed to think they were boffo in the Middle Ages. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: gunsel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think the governor's name must be a blend of Le Petomane > (the actual sobriquet of Pujol, the professional flatulist) > and ptomaine. > Note: "Flatulist" is not in the OED, but clearly there is a need for it . . . __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 11 22:47:38 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:47:38 EST Subject: Exergaming; Rolodex Ranger; Smash & Grab Message-ID: WOTY: I just read Jesse Sheidlower's account in SLATE. "Tsunami" didn't get a single vote for WOTY? No special mention? Would it have made a difference if 500,000 people died? One million people? Second place was "wardrobe malfunction"? ... Here are a few terms in today's newspapers. I've heard them before, but I don't know if we recorded them. ... ... ... ... ROLODEX RANGER ... METRO (NY) 11 January 2005 pg. 11, col. 1 MY VIEW by Dave Levy _Hi Yo, politics lovers-- _it's a Rolodex Ranger_ (...) When asked on NBC's "Meet the Press" recently to defend the delayed response for the tsunami disaster in SOutheast Asia, Secretary of State Colin Powell said that you can always find a "Rolodex Ranger"--someone in a card file guaranteed to back up any point of view--to criticize a government action. Most Americans would not dispute Powell; America's response, in my opinion, is generally compassionate and as punctual as possible. But when New York Times columnist William Safire remarked later in the program that he liked this new term, Rolodex Ranger, it was clear to me that we are gearing up for another round of the Republicans' favorite method of attack--the name game. ... ... ... METRO (NY) 11 January 2005 pg. 19, col. 1 _Entrepreneurs optimistic on "exergaming"_ (...) Company executives insist that "exergaming" or "exertainment"--the marriage of physical exercise and video gaming--is becoming a hot new niche, and the most bullish aficionados say it might even help reduce the nation's obesity epidemic. ... ... ... ... NEW YORK POST 11 January 2005 pg. 19, col. 5: _JEWEL_ _HEIST_ _BUSTS_ _Smash & Grabsky_ (The Russian mob has a member named Oleg Grabsky! - ed.) ... SMASH AND GRAB--59,200 Google hits SLASH AND GRAB--1.150 Google hits From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 11 23:05:41 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:05:41 -0500 Subject: Exergaming; Rolodex Ranger; Smash & Grab In-Reply-To: <1da.3391c600.2f15b18a@aol.com> Message-ID: Word of the YEAR, Barry. Not a few weeks. Wait a year. I've already seen 'tsunami' broadened to include even famines. dInIs >WOTY: I just read Jesse Sheidlower's account in SLATE. "Tsunami" didn't get >a single vote for WOTY? No special mention? Would it have made a difference if > 500,000 people died? One million people? Second place was "wardrobe >malfunction"? >... >Here are a few terms in today's newspapers. I've heard them before, but I >don't know if we recorded them. >... >... >... >... >ROLODEX RANGER >... >METRO (NY) >11 January 2005 >pg. 11, col. 1 >MY VIEW by Dave Levy >_Hi Yo, politics lovers-- >_it's a Rolodex Ranger_ >(...) >When asked on NBC's "Meet the Press" recently to defend the delayed response >for the tsunami disaster in SOutheast Asia, Secretary of State Colin Powell >said that you can always find a "Rolodex Ranger"--someone in a card file >guaranteed to back up any point of view--to criticize a government >action. Most >Americans would not dispute Powell; America's response, in my opinion, is >generally compassionate and as punctual as possible. But when New York Times >columnist William Safire remarked later in the program that he liked this new >term, Rolodex Ranger, it was clear to me that we are gearing up for another >round of the Republicans' favorite method of attack--the name game. >... >... >... >METRO (NY) >11 January 2005 >pg. 19, col. 1 >_Entrepreneurs optimistic on "exergaming"_ >(...) >Company executives insist that "exergaming" or "exertainment"--the marriage >of physical exercise and video gaming--is becoming a hot new niche, and the >most bullish aficionados say it might even help reduce the nation's obesity >epidemic. >... >... >... >... >NEW YORK POST >11 January 2005 >pg. 19, col. 5: >_JEWEL_ >_HEIST_ >_BUSTS_ >_Smash & Grabsky_ > >(The Russian mob has a member named Oleg Grabsky! - ed.) >... >SMASH AND GRAB--59,200 Google hits >SLASH AND GRAB--1.150 Google hits -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 23:08:18 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:08:18 -0600 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) Message-ID: AFAIK it is an anachronism -- I never heard the term in this specific context until Seinfeld. > Ah, yes--shrinkage. Is that an anachronism, or did this > exist as a technical term of art before that Seinfeld episode > with Jerry and George, and the incredulous Elaine > ("It...shrinks??!!")? > > L > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 11 23:13:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:13:15 -0500 Subject: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$54ftn5@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" (1970) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> >> This is all very interesting, and it's great to have the >> material for comparative textual analysis. But what I'm >> wondering is what we >> *boys* were singing in *our* locker room at the same time. For the >> life of me, I can't recall. Much less whether it worked. >> >> larry >> > > In _my_ eighth-grade locker room, no self-respecting boy would admit > to _needing_ to increase the size of his parts. Despite any > evidence in the shower to the contrary ("The water was too cold -- > shrinkage!"). It would be much more likely to have heard something > like "Well, you may walk up and stick it in, but I stick it in and then > walk up". > Well, I've waited over half a century to get this bit of sociology out to the reading public and this may well be my chance. Strange as it may seem, back in the bad old days, the concept of "hung-ness" did not exist among the colored. And it wasn't because we were all so well-hung as to render the concept moot. As is the case with all humanity, with adolescence comes acne. However, this was not generally known among black male youths of my day. In those days, acne was known to us colored boys as "fist-bumps." Why "fist-bumps"? Well, the only term we had for masturbation was "fist-fucking." And we all "knew" that acne was one of the two side-effects of masturbation. The other side-effect - are you ready for this? - was abnormal penile growth! Therefore, if a boy was found to be unusually well-endowed, it was prima-facie evidence that said boy was addicted to masturbation, whether said enlargement was accompanied by a bad case of acne or not. And what would cause a guy to become addicted to masturbation? Well, it was obviously the result of not getting any trim (the term of choice at the Texas grade school that I attended). When he's not getting the real thing, well, a boy's gotta do what a boy's gotta do and damn the consequences. This attitude endured well into the 'Fifties. When I was in college in St. Louis in those days, a black prof of phys ed was well-known for the unusually-large size of his dork. We guys felt sorry for him, since we knew that he couldn't be getting much. It was said that women screamed and bolted for the door as soon as they saw the size of that thing. I was amused by the irony. I knew from reading porn that fictional black guys were reputed to possess extremely large genitalia, whereas, among actual black guys, a larger-than-normal dork was a source of laughter or sympathy. -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 11 23:34:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:34:04 -0600 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: A prior sense, apparently meaning "that wacky shit those kids are doing nowadays," without a explicit sexual component (although we all know that dancing leads to, well, you know . . . Why don't Baptists/Church of Christ/(insert your favorite conservative Southern Christian denomination) have sex standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.) New York | Syracuse | Syracuse Herald | 1912-05-05 >From a Roller Rink ad, p. 22 "ALL FREAK DANCING BARRED" "Their Married Life" by Mabel Herbert Urner | Lincoln Daily Star | 1914-04-17 p. 10/4 "Well, it will be a long time before I shell out my good money to any of these counter jumpers for their freak dancing lessons." Ohio | Mansfield | Mansfield News | 1910-12-14 >From a Dance Academy ad, p. 12 "No freak dancing allowed. " "Freak Dancing Has Caused a Complete Revolution in the Terpsichorean Artistry" [unsigned] Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1926-10-27 p. 11/4 "A concensus of opinion indicates when the freak dances were innovated last year, both young and old were then enjoying dancing, but after the jazz steps had really developed, dancing became so uncomfortable for the middle-aged and older dancers that they soon quit visiting the parks and pavilions where assembly dancing was permitted. The result is that, this year, with the Charleston, Bobby Jones and other freak steps being barred, and dancers of these eccentricities are not visiting dance places while the older, more graceful dancers have not yet realized that an effort is being made to restore the more conservative dances." "Officer Loses First Round To Dancer" Michigan | Holland | Holland Evening Sentinel | 1966-02-26 p. 6/1 "Brodie, 40, hauled Karen's boss, Henry Roman, into court Wednesday on a charge of "allowing immoral, vulgar, suggestive or freak" dancing at the discotheque." From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jan 12 00:16:31 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:16:31 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6D1@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Please remember that us American Baptists are dancin fools. dInIs >A prior sense, apparently meaning "that wacky shit those kids are doing >nowadays," without a explicit sexual component (although we all know >that dancing leads to, well, you know . . . Why don't Baptists/Church of >Christ/(insert your favorite conservative Southern Christian >denomination) have sex standing up? Someone might think they are >dancing.) > > >New York | Syracuse | Syracuse Herald | 1912-05-05 >>From a Roller Rink ad, p. 22 >"ALL FREAK DANCING BARRED" > >"Their Married Life" by Mabel Herbert Urner | Lincoln Daily Star | >1914-04-17 p. 10/4 >"Well, it will be a long time before I shell out my good money to any of >these counter jumpers for their freak dancing lessons." > >Ohio | Mansfield | Mansfield News | 1910-12-14 >>From a Dance Academy ad, p. 12 >"No freak dancing allowed. " > >"Freak Dancing Has Caused a Complete Revolution in the Terpsichorean >Artistry" [unsigned] >Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1926-10-27 p. 11/4 >"A concensus of opinion indicates when the freak dances were innovated >last year, both young and old >were then enjoying dancing, but after the jazz steps had really >developed, dancing became so uncomfortable for the middle-aged and older >dancers that they soon quit visiting the parks and pavilions where >assembly dancing was permitted. The result is that, this year, with the >Charleston, Bobby Jones and other freak steps being barred, and dancers >of these eccentricities are not visiting dance places while the older, >more graceful dancers have not yet realized that an effort is being made >to restore the more conservative dances." > > >"Officer Loses First Round To Dancer" >Michigan | Holland | Holland Evening Sentinel | 1966-02-26 p. 6/1 >"Brodie, 40, hauled Karen's boss, Henry Roman, into court Wednesday on a >charge of "allowing immoral, vulgar, suggestive or freak" dancing at the >discotheque." -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 12 00:45:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:45:07 -0500 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:08:59 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: >On Jan 11, 2005, at 00:49, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> But this all goes back about 15 years earlier to the disco dance craze >> called "the Freak", immortalized by Chic's 1978 hit "Le Freak". From >> an interview with Chic's Nile Rodgers: > >Which in turn seems to be a natural off-shoot of the various sexually >related forms of "freak" which predate the song. I'd be interested to >see if we can uncover a freaking = dancing before Chic's super disco >hit. Chic's song came out in Nov. '78, by which time the "Freak" dance craze had been spreading around the East Coast for several months. Cites over the course of 1978 trace how "the Freak" bubbled up from the disco subculture in various cities. The earliest cite I've found is from March '78 in Boston's _Bay State Banner_ (included in Proquest's "Ethnic NewsWatch" database). That cite and several others below appeared in Arthur Baker's "Breakdown" column, a good source on Boston's disco scene. An April '78 Banner cite and a Washington Post feature in October indicate that the Michael Zager Band was the first to capitalize on the dance craze with a song called "Freak". --------- Bay State Banner, Mar 30, 1978, p. 15 (Proquest) It looks as if dancing fever has truly caught our city by its kicks. Such disco steppin' stompers as "the worm" and "the freak" have made an appearance and Boston has broken out in a rash of dance contests. --------- Bay State Banner, Apr 13, 1978, p. 16 (Proquest) The Michael Zager Band: the "woo-woo" people have released their first lp on Private Stock Records, which features ... two cuts that have been making some noise at Boston's discos -- "Music Fever" and "Freak." --------- Bay State Banner, Jun 15, 1978, p. 20 (Proquest) For those of you who are more in tune to LTD's funk offerings, there are three tunes that'll have you freakin' in a second. --------- Washington Post, Aug 4, 1978 (Weekend) p. 1 (Nexis) [Review of Tiffane, a disco] Dancing is effortless and evocative, technique is de-emphasized. The unorthodox "freak hustle" is a favorite. --------- Bay State Banner, Aug 10, 1978, p. 10 (Proquest) And, together, they began the "freak line." Falling right in line, Sharon Van Allston freaked with the other models and also wearing a pegged pant outfit which featured a one-shoulder qiana big top. Not one to see a lady freaking alone, Levi Downing, Jr., joined the fun modeling a leather pilot-styled jacket that cinched at the waistline. --------- Daily Intelligencer (Doylestown, PA), Sep 12, 1978, p. 24 [Earl Wilson's syndicated NY Post column] Right now, millions are dancing the Disco Freak without knowing it. The word freak is used as in "freaking out." It's a form of free-style dancing. One expert said to me, "I'll explain it." Then he said, "You can't explain it." "It's nothing," he said, "but two people facing each other making sexual movements and gyrating in time to the music as if they were trying to seduce each other without touching each other. Not a bad trick! "The hippies used to freak out to rock and roll. Freaking out hasn't changed, just the disco music is different and louder than the rock music." --------- Washington Post, Oct 10, 1978 (Style) p. B1 (Nexis) Under the blast of strobe lights, here at Tiffane's, wrists rub ribs, nylon knees acquaint themselves with gabardine thighs, fingernails rake necks, so slowly, slowly in these heavy-lidded heavings and twitchings which are the hottest new dance in town. It's called The Freak. ... Let them do The Freak, a huge animal convolvulus down there - accompanied by strangely torpid faces, the sinking lids, the pouting lower lips - it's like the ultimate 1950's dirty boogie. ... In Baltimore, at Star's disco, they call it Body Language. In Philadelphia, at The Library, it's the Freaky-Deaky. Boston's Boston Boston disco is throwing a Freaker's Formal party... Staring at the dance floor of Georgetown's St. Tropez, for instance, you can see the razor-cool formalities of the cocaine '70s giving way to, well, a couple closing on each other while the translucent floor pulses red and the sound of a song called The Freak by the Michael Zager Band rattles through the beige palm trees... At Plum, manager Mike Parrish says they get a lot of Freaking "when things get a little rowdy at the end of a Saturday night." --------- Washington Post, Nov 16, 1978, p. DC2 (Nexis) Announcements of disco parties punctuated the blaring music. As the sound began to shake the gymnasium, the college crowd sprang to its feet, discoing and "freaking" in front of seats and against the walls to songs like "Don't Hold Back if It Feels Good." --------- Bay State Banner, Nov 16, 1978, p. 17 (Proquest) The disco scene has gone through some changes over the past month--from the freakin and rockin' on the dance floors to a new above-ground after-hour club. --------- Bay State Banner, Dec 7, 1978, p. 17 (Proquest) He took the acetate plate to the club with him one night and the place went wild. "The feeling was better than going number one, says Rodgers recalling his elation and pride at seeing dancers screaming and freaking to his songs. --------- Bay State Banner, Dec 28, 1978, p. 1 (Proquest) "Le Freak" is a joke and also a lie because the Freak is not "a new dance" as it proclaims -- black kids are now doing the Rock, and only white kids think the Freak is new. Nonetheless "Le Freak" was a number one hit. --------- By May '79 "the Freak" had been elevated to public menace, according to _Parade Magazine_, the Sunday newspaper supplement... --------- Syracuse Herald Journal, May 6, 1979 (Parade) p. 18 (N-archive) Police say the "Freak," which is sweeping the nation's discos, is the most dangerous new dance in a long time. Some call it "the dance of death" or "the sex dance," others "the dance of jealousy" or "the trouble dance." When Jim Moore performed the Freak in Detroit with his girlfriend, an incensed young man named Jimmie Rogers allegedly shot him in the chest three times. Rogers has been charged with first-degree murder. In the same city, Oscar Ross is [illegible] Sharon after watching her do the Freak at a neighbor's house. The Freak is danced by partners who bend their knees, spread their legs, advance upon each other with whirling hips until they touch. At this point, some couples retreat while others improvise. [Photo caption:] Freaking couples on the disco floor. --------- --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 03:12:38 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:12:38 EST Subject: Oakland food Message-ID: We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in deseperation went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef molcajete, which was so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience of even the sause was distressing. Ugh. In a message dated 1/11/05 4:14:49 PM, Dennis Preston writes: > >Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine > >with one another, but he missed good Thai > From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 03:20:42 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:20:42 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20dirty=20words=20in=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dict=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20ionaries=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?revisted?= Message-ID: In a message dated 12/16/04 10:53:07 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > No N's in sight; perhaps left to the reader/audience to insert ad libitum. > "C's U's, 'n' T's -- from whence cometh her big P's"? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 12 03:40:35 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:40:35 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in deseperation >went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef >molcajete, which was >so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience of even >the sause was distressing. Ugh. > OK, de gustibus and all that. Actually my meal there was relatively mild (enchiladas poblanas w/mole sauce), but livenable up with the salsa, and as mentioned the margaritas helped. But maybe at all the places on the block it was basically luck of the menu--a not uncommon failing of non-top-of-the-line eateries, although one ameliorated at the Thai place with its lunch buffet where you can go back for more of the good stuff. I'm willing to concede that SF would have had tastier options, but I don't want to (as it were) bad mouth what I thought was a pretty decent block of restaurants to find a few yards from the side door of the hotel. L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 04:48:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:48:12 -0500 Subject: Izakaya (Japanese Pub); Shochu (1893); "Devil's Tongue" Konnyaku Sashimi Message-ID: WOTY: Maybe there should be a December cut-off, then? -------------------------------------------------------------- ? IZAKAYA--72,900 Google hits, 657 Google Groups hits (Not in OED) ? ? All right, so the Wednesday NY Times piece swayed me. I tried En Japanese Brasserie on Hudson Street and Leroy. ? Is it the best tofu on the planet? I couldn't taste that. It comes in a small portion in a lacquered box. The place is huge. It looks like some huge movie set, not a restaurant. You can see the food preparers right before you--don't they have to wear gloves? ? I was told that one specialty is "'DEVIL'S TONGUE' KONNYAKU SASHIMI." OED actually has "konnyaku"! It was bound to happen sometime. ? There was an "'Omakase' Tasting Menu" for $60 that I didn't try. Get me outta this place! ? Here's a recent review: (GOOGLE) http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/reviews/restaurant/10383/ (...) The latest Big Box Japanese establishment to land in town is called EN Japanese Brasserie, a great aircraft carrier of a place, which opened two months ago on Hudson Street. The owners of EN run a chain of restaurants in Japan specializing in a homey, pub style of dining called izakaya. Izakayas, typically, are small, neighborly places where groups of gruff gentlemen sip sake and eat local, rustic dishes like grilled beef tongue or boiled burdock root. You can actually get a good bowl of boiled burdock root at EN, but the experience isn???t exactly neighborly, and there???s nothing very rustic about it. (...) It turns out that tofu, in various fresh-made forms, is central to EN???s culinary identity. Tofu is to this peculiar style of restaurant what frites are to a French brasserie. It???s skimmed into thin sheets of tofu skin called yuba, or steamed in clay pots with yams and bits of crab, or scooped into lacquer boxes and served warm or chilled, with different varieties of soy sauce. (...) There???s also an esoteric sashimi made from a root-vegetable paste called konnyaku, which is infused with bits of seaweed and served on crushed ice. Dipped in miso, it has a sweet, jellied, curiously dissolving quality, like some exotic form of vegan candy. (...) Aside from all the sakes (brought to the table in pointy bamboo beakers) available at EN, you can also dizzy yourself with shochu, the fierce Japanese vodka drink, which is newly in vogue in Tokyo. I observed crowds of party-animal stockbrokers knocking back cups of sweet-potato shochu, and shochu infused with Turkish apricots, both of which tasted more or less like fiery rotgut to me. ? ? -------------------------------------------------------------- SHOCHU ? ? (OED) shochu ? ? A rough Japanese spirit distilled from various ingredients, including sake dregs. Also attrib. ? 1938 BUSH & KAGAMI Japanalia 143/1 Sak?? contains 12 to 14 per cent. alcohol... Shch, distilled from sak?? dregs contains up to 60 per cent. alcohol. 1964 I. FLEMING You only live Twice x. 124 The herdsman..handed Bond a bottle of what appeared to be water. Tiger said, ???This is shochu. It is a very raw gin.??? ? ? ? ? ? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WHOLESALE TEMPERANCE REFORM.; How an Island in the Sea of Japan Turned Over a New Leaf and Prospered. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 20, 1893. p. 14 (1 page): Yet they consumed annually $3,000 worth of sake in addition to shochu and other strong drinks. ? ? MANY INTERESTING FACTS TOLD BY MR. BRYAN ABOUT THINGS IN JAPAN BY WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYAN.Special Correspondence of The Washington Post.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 11, 1906. p. SM6 (1 page): Ordinarily this beverage contains from 11 to 14 per cent. alcohol, but there is a stronger kind called shochu, which contains as much as 50 per cent. alcohol. ? ? Strong Drink in far East.; SOME OF THE QUALITIES OF THE INTOXICATING LIQOURS USED BY THE ORIENTALS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 15, 1910. p. MS4 (1 page): A stronger variety, shochu, contains from 20 to 50 per cent of alcohol. Another form, mirin, is more or less a liquor. The Chinese have to alcoholic drinks--samshu and hocshu. Samshu is simply another name for arrack, but hocshu is a much more aristocratic drink. (From LANCET. Could Fred Shapiro get the original?--ed.) DRINKS IN THE FAR EAST. (Same as above--ed.) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 17, 1910. p. M4 (1 page): A stronger variety, shochu, contains from 20 to 50 per cent of alcohol. Another form, mirin, is more or less a liquor. The Chinese have to alcoholic drinks--samshu and hocshu. Samshu is simply another name for arrack, but hocshu is a much more aristocratic drink. ? ? -------------------------------------------------------------- KONNYAKU ? (OED) koniak, koniaku Also konjak, konnyaku. [ad. Jap. ko-n-nya-ku, ko-nya-ku.] ? ? A local name for Amorphophallus rivieri, a large herb of the family Arace??, cultivated in Japan for the flour obtained from its roots. ? 1884 tr. A. de Candolle's Orig. Cultivated Plants II. i. 76 The konjak is a tuberous plant of the family Arace??, extensively cultivated by the Japanese. 1954 J. M. MORRIS Wise Bamboo iv. 54 Anything edible can be put into sukiyaki. ? ? ? (GOOGLE) Asia Food Glossary Page ... In Japan it is known as 'devil's tongue' or konnyaku. Through a complicated process similar to the making of tofu, the large brown ... www.asiafood.org/glossary_1.cfm?alpha=D& wordid=2545&startno=1&endno=25 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages ? ? ? -------------------------------------------------------------- IZAKAYA ? ? (FACTIVA) Genroku menu a festival of Japanese delicacies Adriel Bettelheim; Denver Post Staff Writer 768 words 31 July 1992 Denver Post 30 English (Copyright 1992) How does a restaurant get by serving Japanese delicacies like eel, egg custard soup and cold buckwheat noodles in a city where Nipponese food is basically limited to sushi and tempura? In the case of Genroku, quite well. This unusual dining spot in an old International House of Pancakes on South Colorado Boulevard reintroduces Denver to the izakaya, those out-of-the-way Japanese watering holes where patrons swig beer or sake while downing appetizer-sized portions of steamed fish, meat stews, sashimi and noodle dishes. ? ? (FACTIVA) Dining out (1105). 1,276 words 24 February 1998 Mainichi Daily News English (c) 1998 Chamber World Network This cross between an izakaya and a yakitoriya has something for everyone. Sporting a quiet Japanese ambience mixed with the soft strains of jazz music, it is a perfect place to take friends for a relaxed evening. ? ? (FACTIVA) Cultural Conundrums / Enjoy rudeness in a 'barlet' Kate Elwood Special to The Daily Yomiuri 1,163 words 21 December 2004 Daily Yomiuri 17 English (c) 2004 The Daily Yomiuri All Rights Reserved. Gin joint, saloon, tavern, pub, watering hole, drinking establishment and good old bar--there are lots of ways in English, some perhaps a bit dated--to describe about the place where we go to wet our whistles. Pub and bar are also used in Japanese, as well as izakaya and nomiya and no doubt there are other expressions I have yet to come across. The Japanese words seem to each have their own specific nuances in terms of what types of drinks and food are served, what the interior design is like, and whether it's a place a solitary drinker might go or for convivial groups. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 12 05:43:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:43:01 -0800 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in >> deseperation >> went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef >> molcajete, which was >> so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience >> of even >> the sause was distressing. Ugh. >> > OK, de gustibus and all that... > ...I'm willing to concede that SF would have had > tastier options, but I don't want to (as it were) bad mouth what I > thought was a pretty decent block of restaurants to find a few yards > from the side door of the hotel. until very recently, sf wouldn't have had anything like this variety within a few blocks of the hotel. now there are the restaurants in the ferry building and in soma. but to get ethnic variety or fabulous high-end food you have to go a significant distance from the hyatt recency. similarly in most of the other cities we meet in. it's also true that ethnic neighborhoods have a big range of places. you can get routine or even truly bad food (including dim sum) at dozens of places in sf's chinatown. within a mile or two of the hotel in oakland there were truly fabulous restaurants. for instance, jojo, where i was provided dinner on saturday night. it's about as far from the hotel as zuni is from the hyatt regency in sf. roughly comparable, though jojo is much more intimate than zuni. similar observations about the hotels we routinely go to in nyc, chicago, and l.a. in san diego, we're *way* off the beaten track. i've been amazed how downtown oakland has preserved most of the ethnic neighborhoods and turned slum land back into a mixture of renovated buildings and new development (like the marriott). [fairness statement: my step-brother dennis power is the director of the Oakland Museum of California, which i think is a really cool museum.] i'm going on to this extent because i thought the location was great and that the hotel went to extraordinary lengths to suit us (LSA, ADS, ANS, NAHOLS, SSILA, and SPCL), in ways that no other hotel (in my roughly 40 years of having a hand in such arrangements) has. i want to go back. (ok, yes, the drive from palo alto to downtown oakland is *much* easier than the drive from palo alto to market st. and the embarcadero in sf. but i've been in love with downtown sf for, oh, about 40 years, so i don't think i can be accused of bias towards the ease of oakland.) arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 05:45:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:45:21 -0500 Subject: Mandarinquat (Mandarin orange + kumquat) Message-ID: MANDARINQUAT--58 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit For those who love "pluot" and "plumcot" and "pomato" and "citrange" and "tangelo," this one's for you. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/dining/12QUAT.html Mandarinquat is the clunky if accurate name coined for this small citrus hybrid, a cross between a mandarin orange and a kumquat. It is similar to calamansi, an ancient Asian cross between the two fruits that is rounder and often green, and tastes pretty much the same. Each mandarinquat yields a generous tablespoon of lip-smacking, tart juice. It is a good substitute for Seville or sour oranges in dishes like duck ? l'orange. The skin, however, has the tender sweetness of kumquat, so simmer strips of the peel in sugar syrup to garnish the duck. A pound of them, easily a dozen, is $9.99 at Agata & Valentina and the Orchard in Midwood, Brooklyn, and $12.99 at Eli's Manhattan and the Vinegar Factory. (FACTIVA) Life And Arts A RARE TREAT 148 words 13 June 2003 Seattle Post-Intelligencer FINAL G1 English Copyright (c) 2003 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. Mandarinquats quietly hit town a few weeks ago. Mandarin-what? Mandarinquat. It's a cross between a mandarin orange and a kumquat. It resembles a huge kumquat and is maybe a couple of inches long. The juicy-tart pulp is balanced by the sweetness of the edible rind. Because of the short season and limited crop (only two acres of it are grown in Southern California), Seattle received fewer than 10 cases. A few lucky chefs, such as Seastar's John Howie, have had the chance to play with mandarinquats. Howie garnishes oysters with a sliver of the fruit and offers a white chocolate mandarinquat cheesecake for dessert. Look for dishes using this lovely citrus at Cassis Bistro, marjorie, the Golf Club at Newcastle, and from Lowell- Hunt Catering. Mandarinquats are still "experimental" and not available yet for retail. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 08:03:29 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:03:29 -0500 Subject: Dough Nuts, Crullers (1802) Message-ID: (OED) doughnut 1. A small spongy cake made of dough (usually sweetened and spiced), and fried or boiled in lard. Freq. made in the shape of a thick ring. 1809 W. IRVING Knickerb. (1861) 90 An enormous dish of balls of sweetened dough, fried in hog's fat, and called doughnuts, or olykoeks. 1847 THOREAU in Atlantic Monthly June (1892) 757 The window was..the size of an oblong doughnut, and about as opaque. 1861 R. F. BURTON City of Saints 104 note, The Dough-nut is properly speaking, a small roundish cake made of flour, eggs, and sugar, moistened with milk and boiled in lard. 1870 HAZLITT Brand's Pop. Antiq. I. 48 At Baldock, Herts, the children call..[Shrove Tuesday] Dough-nut Day, from the small cakes fried in brass skillets over the fire with hog's lard. http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq1.html#doughnuts "Doughnuts are deep-fried cakes with a long European history and roots in still earlier Middle Eastern cuisine. They were introduced to America by the Dutch in New Newtherland as oliekoecken (oil cakes or fried cakes)...The were eaten during the Dutch Christmas season...and for special occasions throughout the year. Once in the New World, the Dutch replaced their frying oil with the preferred lard (far more available here), as it produced a tender and greaseless crust. The other ethnic groups brought their own doughnut variations. The Pennsylvania Dutch and the Moravians who settled in North Carolina made fastnachts on Shrove Tuesday, and the French established beignets in New Orleans. Ultimately, the English American cooks adopted them as well. By 1845 doughtnuts appeared in American Cookbooks as staples, and the weekly Saturday baking (breads, cakes, and ies) included doughtnut frying. In this same antebellum period, two changes in technology contributed to a basic alteration of the doughnut. Chemical leavening (notably baking powder) was substituted for yeast, producing a more cakelike and less breadlike product. In the same era inexpensive tin doughnut cutters with holes were manufactured commercially and sold widely." ---Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith [Oxford University Press:New York] 2004 (p. 408) (OED) cruller [app. a. Du. cruller, f. crullen to curl: cf. EFris. kruller curl, paper-curl, LG. kroll-koken wafer-cakes.] A cake cut from dough containing eggs, butter, sugar, etc., twisted or curled into various shapes, and fried to crispness in lard or oil. 1818 W. IRVING Sketch-Bk., Leg. Sleepy Hollow, The doughty dough-nut..the crisp and crumbling cruller. 1866 HOWELLS Venet. Life vi, A species of cruller, fried in oil, which has all seasons for its own. 1890 G. RUDMANI Royal Baker (N.Y.) 8 [Recipe]. -------------------------------------------------------------- 10,000 years. To earn as much money as a baseball player. 10,000 years of work. 10,000 years of parking tickets. My food etymology earnings will never make me enough money to actually buy a single doughnut or cruller, but here goes. The origin of two great American foods. (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) Paper: Commercial Advertiser.; Date: 1802-12-13; Vol: VI; Iss: 1610; Page: [2]; By G. & R. WAITE, price 75 cents, handsomely bound in red, for the pocket THE FRUGAL HOUSEWIFE, OR COMPLETE WOMAN COOK; (...) An Appendix, containing receipts for making Pumpkin-Pie, Dough Nuts, Sausages, Blood Puddings, Cranberry-Tarts, Peach Sweetmeats, Pear do. Quince do. Green Gage do.; to pickle Peppers and Beets; to make Maple Suage, Maple Molasses, Maple Beer, Spruce Beer out of the essence, do. out of Shred Spruce; to make Pork-Pie, Bath Pudding, Pot-Pie, Short Gingerbread, Wharfles, Crullers; methods of raising Turkies, method of destroying the putrid smell which meat acquires during hot weather, &c. &c.; together with a Bill of Fare for every month in the year. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 11:48:34 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:48:34 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Oakland=20food?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/12/05 12:43:28 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > i'm going on to this extent because i thought the location was great > and that the hotel went to extraordinary lengths to suit us (LSA, ADS, > ANS, NAHOLS, SSILA, and SPCL), in ways that no other hotel (in my > roughly 40 years of having a hand in such arrangements) has.? i want to > go back. > > I agree with Arnold about this. The hotel staff was outstanding, and it WAS nice to be able to get to such a variety of restaurants within easy walking distance. The food at the Marriott itself was good, too, for that matter. The fact that the Vietnamese and Mexican food did not quite come up to Orlando/Durham standards has to take into account that in Orlando and Durham I know where to go. There is also some bad food in Orlando (which has NO really good Mexican or Chinese that I have found, not anywhere) and Durham. It was a WONDERFUL conference. Congratulations to all who planned this event. From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Jan 12 12:26:10 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:26:10 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, Too bad you didn't wait longer; the soups at Siam Bay were really delicious, and the BBQ mussels came with a hot pepper garlic sauce even garlicky enough for me. (Remember, my family home is not that far from Transylvania, and I've got to keep vampires away, especially important at LSA meetings.) Only the stuffed chicken wings were slightly overcooked. All in all about an 8 (on a 10 scale). They were simply overwhelmed by too much bidness. I'd like to go back now that all the linguists have gone back to where they belong. The real find in Oakland was Soizic, an Asian-owned, Latino cooked, Middle-Eastern served French Bistro. Seafood ravioli, seared tuna, fried escolar, squash soup - everything we had was delicious (went twice). Plenty of stuff for veggie-snappers, and an good wine list (with plenty of choices under $40, some even under $30). Corner of 3rd and Broadway (entrance around the corner on 3rd; looks like a deserted white stone block warehouse from Broadway). dInIs >We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in deseperation >went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the beef >molcajete, which was >so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so picante that the experience of even >the sause was distressing. Ugh. > >In a message dated 1/11/05 4:14:49 PM, Dennis Preston writes: > > >> >Since Ron and I belong to different generations, we don't often dine >> >with one another, but he missed good Thai >> From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 12 14:37:14 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:37:14 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_Oakland_food?= In-Reply-To: <27.69790a79.2f166892@aol.com> Message-ID: > I agree with Arnold about this. The hotel staff was > outstanding, and it WAS > nice to be able to get to such a variety of restaurants within > easy walking > distance. The food at the Marriott itself was good, too, for that > matter. The > fact that the Vietnamese and Mexican food did not quite come up to > Orlando/Durham standards has to take into account that in Orlando > and Durham I know where > to go. There is also some bad food in Orlando (which has NO really good > Mexican or Chinese that I have found, not anywhere) and Durham. I'm not sure what restaurants you're referring to. Le Cheval, which despite the name is a Vietnamese restaurant near the hotel, is quite good (or at least it was, I haven't been there in a few years). Some of us also went out to the Mexicali Rose, which was passable but nothing to write home about. There is also some superb Chinese nearby, but as Ron says you have to know where to go. I don't know downtown Oakland that well, but there are some top-notch restaurants further afield in the city and in Berkeley, and at very good prices. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net, http://www.wilton.net From stevekl at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 12 14:41:41 2005 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:41:41 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of us went down to 7th Street, which seemed to be a block further than most hotel traffic would go, and went to a sushi place (Sui Sui K) where we got all you could eat sushi for $9.95 per person. And it was really good! From packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 12 15:11:24 2005 From: packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM (=?iso-8859-1?B?VmFs6XJpYSBTb3V6YQ==?=) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:11:24 -0500 Subject: Word of the Year: A Proposal Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 12 15:19:28 2005 From: packedby776 at HOTMAIL.COM (=?iso-8859-1?B?VmFs6XJpYSBTb3V6YQ==?=) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:19:28 -0500 Subject: Proposal Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 12 15:37:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:37:01 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:37 AM -0800 1/12/05, Dave Wilton wrote: > > I agree with Arnold about this. The hotel staff was >> outstanding, and it WAS >> nice to be able to get to such a variety of restaurants within >> easy walking >> distance. The food at the Marriott itself was good, too, for that >> matter. The >> fact that the Vietnamese and Mexican food did not quite come up to >> Orlando/Durham standards has to take into account that in Orlando >> and Durham I know where >> to go. There is also some bad food in Orlando (which has NO really good >> Mexican or Chinese that I have found, not anywhere) and Durham. > >I'm not sure what restaurants you're referring to. Le Cheval, which despite >the name is a Vietnamese restaurant near the hotel, is quite good (or at >least it was, I haven't been there in a few years). Thanks for the (ahem) feedback, everyone--I'll have to save these messages for what I also hope will be a next LSA/ADS meeting in our lifetime. As for the somewhat maligned Le Cheval, besides their nice squid dishes, I very much liked their red snapper with okra, a dish which they may offer in Durham and Orlando but which I've never encountered in the northern cities Vietnamese/Thai joints I know. larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 12 17:17:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:17:57 -0800 Subject: Freak Dancing (1998) Message-ID: "Freak" dancing in its current sense could have evolved at any time since "freak-out" days of the late sixties when "freak" was a big word. Meanwhile, a recent episode of the syndicated reality freak show "Elimidate" (urgent viewing for those who doubt we live in the End Times) featured two young women on a dance floor being urged to "do the lesbian dance!" Perhaps a folk holdover from idyllic days on Lesbos (goak), this turned out to be the smae rhythmical butt-to-bellybutton feminine writhing that created new fans of Sharon Stone in the film "Basic Instinct" (Paul Verhoeven, 1992). On the same dance floor, a self-described "shy daddy's girl" from Long Island demonstrated the unmistakably hetero step de jour with her guy of the hour which, had it been taped even in the freaky sixties, would have landed everybody, including the producers, in jail or in the nuthouse. "Freak, that I may know thee!" JL, now flirting with Prudery. ("Hiya, Toots!") "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: Freak Dancing (1998) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A prior sense, apparently meaning "that wacky shit those kids are doing nowadays," without a explicit sexual component (although we all know that dancing leads to, well, you know . . . Why don't Baptists/Church of Christ/(insert your favorite conservative Southern Christian denomination) have sex standing up? Someone might think they are dancing.) New York | Syracuse | Syracuse Herald | 1912-05-05 >From a Roller Rink ad, p. 22 "ALL FREAK DANCING BARRED" "Their Married Life" by Mabel Herbert Urner | Lincoln Daily Star | 1914-04-17 p. 10/4 "Well, it will be a long time before I shell out my good money to any of these counter jumpers for their freak dancing lessons." Ohio | Mansfield | Mansfield News | 1910-12-14 >From a Dance Academy ad, p. 12 "No freak dancing allowed. " "Freak Dancing Has Caused a Complete Revolution in the Terpsichorean Artistry" [unsigned] Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1926-10-27 p. 11/4 "A concensus of opinion indicates when the freak dances were innovated last year, both young and old were then enjoying dancing, but after the jazz steps had really developed, dancing became so uncomfortable for the middle-aged and older dancers that they soon quit visiting the parks and pavilions where assembly dancing was permitted. The result is that, this year, with the Charleston, Bobby Jones and other freak steps being barred, and dancers of these eccentricities are not visiting dance places while the older, more graceful dancers have not yet realized that an effort is being made to restore the more conservative dances." "Officer Loses First Round To Dancer" Michigan | Holland | Holland Evening Sentinel | 1966-02-26 p. 6/1 "Brodie, 40, hauled Karen's boss, Henry Roman, into court Wednesday on a charge of "allowing immoral, vulgar, suggestive or freak" dancing at the discotheque." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 12 17:29:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:29:13 -0800 Subject: Dough Nuts, Crullers (1802) Message-ID: My grandmother, born in NYC in 1888, was certain that in her youth a "doughnut" was exclusively solid, usu. with a jelly filling ("what today you'd call a 'jelly doughnut'") and that the ring kind was invariably called a "cruller." At least in NYC when ice was delivered daily, horse droppings littered the streets, and there was no aspirin. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Dough Nuts, Crullers (1802) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (OED) doughnut 1. A small spongy cake made of dough (usually sweetened and spiced), and fried or boiled in lard. Freq. made in the shape of a thick ring. 1809 W. IRVING Knickerb. (1861) 90 An enormous dish of balls of sweetened dough, fried in hog's fat, and called doughnuts, or olykoeks. 1847 THOREAU in Atlantic Monthly June (1892) 757 The window was..the size of an oblong doughnut, and about as opaque. 1861 R. F. BURTON City of Saints 104 note, The Dough-nut is properly speaking, a small roundish cake made of flour, eggs, and sugar, moistened with milk and boiled in lard. 1870 HAZLITT Brand's Pop. Antiq. I. 48 At Baldock, Herts, the children call..[Shrove Tuesday] Dough-nut Day, from the small cakes fried in brass skillets over the fire with hog's lard. http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq1.html#doughnuts "Doughnuts are deep-fried cakes with a long European history and roots in still earlier Middle Eastern cuisine. They were introduced to America by the Dutch in New Newtherland as oliekoecken (oil cakes or fried cakes)...The were eaten during the Dutch Christmas season...and for special occasions throughout the year. Once in the New World, the Dutch replaced their frying oil with the preferred lard (far more available here), as it produced a tender and greaseless crust. The other ethnic groups brought their own doughnut variations. The Pennsylvania Dutch and the Moravians who settled in North Carolina made fastnachts on Shrove Tuesday, and the French established beignets in New Orleans. Ultimately, the English American cooks adopted them as well. By 1845 doughtnuts appeared in American Cookbooks as staples, and the weekly Saturday baking (breads, cakes, and ies) included doughtnut frying. In this same antebellum period, two changes in technology contributed to a basic alteration of the doughnut. Chemical leavening (notably baking powder) was substituted for yeast, producing a more cakelike and less breadlike product. In the same era inexpensive tin doughnut cutters with holes were manufactured commercially and sold widely." ---Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith [Oxford University Press:New York] 2004 (p. 408) (OED) cruller [app. a. Du. cruller, f. crullen to curl: cf. EFris. kruller curl, paper-curl, LG. kroll-koken wafer-cakes.] A cake cut from dough containing eggs, butter, sugar, etc., twisted or curled into various shapes, and fried to crispness in lard or oil. 1818 W. IRVING Sketch-Bk., Leg. Sleepy Hollow, The doughty dough-nut..the crisp and crumbling cruller. 1866 HOWELLS Venet. Life vi, A species of cruller, fried in oil, which has all seasons for its own. 1890 G. RUDMANI Royal Baker (N.Y.) 8 [Recipe]. -------------------------------------------------------------- 10,000 years. To earn as much money as a baseball player. 10,000 years of work. 10,000 years of parking tickets. My food etymology earnings will never make me enough money to actually buy a single doughnut or cruller, but here goes. The origin of two great American foods. (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) Paper: Commercial Advertiser.; Date: 1802-12-13; Vol: VI; Iss: 1610; Page: [2]; By G. & R. WAITE, price 75 cents, handsomely bound in red, for the pocket THE FRUGAL HOUSEWIFE, OR COMPLETE WOMAN COOK; (...) An Appendix, containing receipts for making Pumpkin-Pie, Dough Nuts, Sausages, Blood Puddings, Cranberry-Tarts, Peach Sweetmeats, Pear do. Quince do. Green Gage do.; to pickle Peppers and Beets; to make Maple Suage, Maple Molasses, Maple Beer, Spruce Beer out of the essence, do. out of Shred Spruce; to make Pork-Pie, Bath Pudding, Pot-Pie, Short Gingerbread, Wharfles, Crullers; methods of raising Turkies, method of destroying the putrid smell which meat acquires during hot weather, &c. &c.; together with a Bill of Fare for every month in the year. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 12 19:12:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:12:07 -0500 Subject: How soon they forget! Message-ID: Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read French, no doubt. -Wilson Gray From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jan 12 19:44:58 2005 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:44:58 -0500 Subject: Oakland food - Albuquerque food Message-ID: Now that our appetites have been retroactively whetted, how about proactively? LSA/ADS will be in Albuquerque a year from now, and if we have astute advance vetting, we'll know exactly where to go. We're to be at the Hyatt in A., wherever that is. - Allan Metcalf From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 12 22:18:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:18:36 -0800 Subject: How soon they forget! Message-ID: In those pricey vacation brochures, holidays in Indochina are now labeled "Indochine." The more things change, the more a rose by any other name smells different. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: How soon they forget! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read French, no doubt. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 12 23:01:10 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:01:10 -0800 Subject: the blendoid Message-ID: uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion in Oakland: ... put your balls on the table this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity associated with "balls" as in "have the balls to". (of course, actually putting your balls on the table would be both open and audacious, not to mention risky and probably uncomfortable.) this is not your usual blend, for two reasons: (a) the combining elements are not competing expressions for the same or similar meanings, but each contributes meaning to the result, which (i surmise, though grant can speak for himself here) conveys something like 'have the balls to put one's cards on the table' ; and (b) the result is not really a structural amalgam of "put one's cards on the table" and "have to balls to", but really just the former with "balls" taking the place of "cards". the closest thing to this that we've discussed here is, i think, "bunker down". in the words of jerry cohen, on 10/10/03: ----- "Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea of hunkering down in a bunker. ----- "bunker down" also might have an eggcornesque/malapropistic tinge to it, if those who use it think that "bunker" makes more sense than "hunker" (if, for example, they're more familiar with "bunker" than "hunker"). such a tinge is entirely missing in "put one's balls on the table". in any case, we have one clear model expression, and then a lexical intrusion from another expression that's floating in the air (more accurately, in the speaker's mind). a sort-of-blend, or blendoid. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 12 23:49:21 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:21 -0500 Subject: the blendoid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2005, at 18:01, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion > in Oakland: > ... put your balls on the table > this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, > candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity associated with > "balls" as in "have the balls to". I would add in "balls on the line" as a contributor. Grant Barrett From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 00:48:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:48:42 EST Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang Message-ID: HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: THE CARNEGIE DELI A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) and Allyn Freeman 171 pages, $21.95 Hoboken, NJ: John WIley & Sons 2005 10,000 years. So I said to my co-workers, to be as good as Carlos Beltran is, I'd have to do parking tickets every single day until the time of Jesus. And then I'd have to work another 8,000 years! I was so depressed I bought this ridiculous book, which should be given out for free. It's about as deep as HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. Nevertheless, there are a few items of interest. Pg. 59: DELI SLANG Pistol Pastrami Betty Grable...Cheesecake Dressed Russian dressing, coleslaw Jack Grilled American cheese, tomato Wreck 'em Scrambled eggs One with Hot dog with sauerkraut Brown cow Chocolate milk Dry No butter on toast Whiskey Rye bread Full house Grilled cheese with bacon CB Corned beef Grade A Milk Draw one Coffee Combo Swiss cheese added to any sandwich Dutch American cheese added to any sandwich Schmear Cream cheese Coney Hot dog Down Toast Seaboard A takeout order One off Plain hot dog Pg. 114: Pastrami has its own ordering nickname, "a pistol." At the Carnegie Deli, you will hear the servers calling out, "A pistol on whiskey down," (rye bread toasted) or "A pistol dressed" (Russian dressing and coleslaw on the bread). The reason is not because pastrami is the king of sandwiches and merits its own special name. You be the counterman for a moment. What would you make if you heard a server shout, "Ordering a ..._ami_ on rye to go." Did you answer, "pastrami"? Or on (Pg. 115--ed.) second thought, do you think it was "salami"? When you hear the words pistol or salami, there's never any confusion. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 13 01:22:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:22:10 -0500 Subject: How soon they forget! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well put, Jonathan! And now, as suggested by the local broadsheet, I'm going to take it on the lamb. -Wilson On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: How soon they forget! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In those pricey vacation brochures, holidays in Indochina are now > labeled "Indochine." > > The more things change, the more a rose by any other name smells > different. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: How soon they forget! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it > should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a > French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans > that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read > French, no doubt. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Jan 13 01:39:00 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:39:00 -0500 Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: >HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: >THE CARNEGIE DELI >A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS >by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) >and Allyn Freeman While there may only be a tiny bit of deli dialect in this book, I assume (and hope that ADS-L has discussed deli and short-order language in detail. Where else could we find a better test case for examining our assumptions about jargon, dialect, etc.? I have nothing except encouragment and an anecdote to offer: I first encountered short-order jargon at 'The Waffle Shop', an all-night diner-like establishment fairly high up Wisconsin Avenue in Washington, D.C., where I was a hopelessly naive undergraduate at Georgetown University in the early 1970s. Adrift in an anomic world, I often found myself eating waffles there at any hour of day or night (when I could cadge a ride that far, and had enought cash for a short stack.) The waffle irons, as far as I could tell, had never been cleaned, and bore countless layers of spilled batter outside their upright halves, but the waffles came out impeccably solid, ready for customer-added fats and sugars. What I noticed there, more than the batter strata going back to primordial times, was that my order, whatever it was, expressed however precisely in the language of the menu card, was instantaneously translated into a language which, while it resembled English, and used only English words, syntax, etc., was beyond my immediate comprehension. It was enough to make even lame-brain, disenchanted me pay a little attention: there was something very special going on there, language-wise. With my typical laziness, I of course merely noted the wonder of it all, and relapsed to my usual passivity, at least until my order arrived. But to this day, I want to learn that language, how it came to be, how it was learned by new workers, and so on. Were there enough people in the workforce who knew this language that they didn't have to hire the ignorant? Or did the cooks actually understand the 'standard English' of the menu, but disdain to respond to it? I did manage to observe that one side of the communication-interaction, the cooks, were all male, beefy guys with multiple tatoos, which led me to hypothesize that they were _all_ ex-Navy/Marine cooks, and I supposed that at least some of the lingo had come from their military service. The other side of the interaction, the middle-women, the interpreters, were all women 'of a certain age' (i.e., none as young as me, then about 20), yet able to speak both my language, and the short-order language of the cooks. This bi-lingualism would, I suppose, be considered by some to be rather limited, restricted to dealing with menu items, etc. But I wonder about that. Were there other aspects, hidden from customers? Maybe they were saying things like this 'expletive changed to the unrecognizable' thinks he wants a couple of waffles. Burn 'em or pull 'em out raw, he's being a pain in the ...' Or whatever. As far as I knew, they could be telling the cooks anything at all (but it had to include my order, since I always got the right stuff, more or less. Lazy, (as I say) me, about the only thing I seem to remember from back then was that a 'side' meant french fries. But I could be wrong about that. French fries don't really 'go' with waffles, do they? (They did serve all manner of short-order.) Hoping you'll talk this one to death, and manage to decrease my ignorance at least a little, Michael McKernan From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Jan 13 02:15:18 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:15:18 -0500 Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang Message-ID: All I can say is, I've had perhaps 50 Carnegie Deli Pastrami/Corned Beef sandwiches in my life. A meal for two. The finest corned beef/pastrami on the face of the earth. Not linguistic, merely commenting as a patron. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:48 PM Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang > HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: > THE CARNEGIE DELI > A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS > by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) > and Allyn Freeman > 171 pages, $21.95 > Hoboken, NJ: John WIley & Sons 2005 > > 10,000 years. So I said to my co-workers, to be as good as Carlos Beltran is, > I'd have to do parking tickets every single day until the time of Jesus. And > then I'd have to work another 8,000 years! > > I was so depressed I bought this ridiculous book, which should be given out > for free. It's about as deep as HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. Nevertheless, > there are a few items of interest. > > Pg. 59: DELI SLANG > Pistol Pastrami > Betty Grable...Cheesecake > Dressed Russian dressing, coleslaw > Jack Grilled American cheese, tomato > Wreck 'em Scrambled eggs > One with Hot dog with sauerkraut > Brown cow Chocolate milk > Dry No butter on toast > Whiskey Rye bread > Full house Grilled cheese with bacon > CB Corned beef > Grade A Milk > Draw one Coffee > Combo Swiss cheese added to any sandwich > Dutch American cheese added to any sandwich > Schmear Cream cheese > Coney Hot dog > Down Toast > Seaboard A takeout order > One off Plain hot dog > > Pg. 114: > Pastrami has its own ordering nickname, "a pistol." At the Carnegie Deli, you > will hear the servers calling out, "A pistol on whiskey down," (rye bread > toasted) or "A pistol dressed" (Russian dressing and coleslaw on the bread). > > The reason is not because pastrami is the king of sandwiches and merits its > own special name. You be the counterman for a moment. What would you make if > you heard a server shout, "Ordering a ..._ami_ on rye to go." Did you answer, > "pastrami"? Or on (Pg. 115--ed.) second thought, do you think it was "salami"? > When you hear the words pistol or salami, there's never any confusion. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 13 03:31:20 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:31:20 -0500 Subject: How soon they forget! In-Reply-To: <20050112221836.72147.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:18 PM -0800 1/12/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >In those pricey vacation brochures, holidays in Indochina are now >labeled "Indochine." > >The more things change, the more a rose by any other name smells different. > >JL Not just vacation brochures. One of the five choices in the Thai restaurant ghetto (there are 5 such joints within a 2 block strip) in New Haven is a place called the Indochine Pavilion (formerly "Indochine" tout court), which I've always assumed to be a bit pricier than it would have been had it been named "Indochina", or "Thai Pavilion" for that matter. larry >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: How soon they forget! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it >should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a >French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans >that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read >French, no doubt. > >-Wilson Gray > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 13 03:39:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:39:22 -0500 Subject: Carnegie Deli book (2005) and deli slang In-Reply-To: <1e9.33345876.2f171f6a@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:48 PM -0500 1/12/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >HOW TO FEED FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE: >THE CARNEGIE DELI >A GIANT SANDWICH, A LITTLE DELI, A HUGE SUCCESS >by Milton Parker (Owner of the Carnegie Deli) >and Allyn Freeman >171 pages, $21.95 >Hoboken, NJ: John WIley & Sons 2005 >Pg. 114: >Pastrami has its own ordering nickname, "a pistol." At the Carnegie Deli, you >will hear the servers calling out, "A pistol on whiskey down," (rye bread >toasted) or "A pistol dressed" (Russian dressing and coleslaw on the bread). > >The reason is not because pastrami is the king of sandwiches and merits its >own special name. You be the counterman for a moment. What would you make if >you heard a server shout, "Ordering a ..._ami_ on rye to go." Did you answer, >"pastrami"? Or on (Pg. 115--ed.) second thought, do you think it was "salami"? >When you hear the words pistol or salami, there's never any confusion. And of course, someone *could* have been ordering a tsunami on rye, which is therefore referred to by the Carnegie disambiguators as a tsuris. Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jan 13 03:54:25 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:54:25 -0800 Subject: How soon they forget! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Given that Vietnam was once part of the colony, _French_ Indo-China, it > should come as no surprise that a Vietnamese restaurant would have a > French name like "Le Cheval." And, of course, the number of Americans > that can read Vietnamese is even smaller than the number that can read > French, no doubt. I was well aware of the connection when I made the comment. But I still think it's an odd name for a Vietnamese Restaurant. It was the marketeer in me speaking, not the historian. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 04:02:47 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:02:47 -0500 Subject: Bombay Talkie (1943) Message-ID: BOMBAY TALKIE--5,980 Google hits, 87 Google Groups hits Over the weekend, I went to get the oldest book the NYPL had on "tofu," going way back to 1975. The book was off-site. I requested it. So now it's Wednesday, and I go to the great New York Public Library, and my book...is not there. I walked over to "Bombay Talkie" (Ninth Avenue and West 21st Street) for dinner. The restaurant says that's the pre-"Bollywood" name for those kinds of movies. It was popularized by the Merchant-Ivory film title BOMBAY TALKIE in 1970, but ProQuest has "Bombay Talkie" from 1943. "Bombay Talkie" is not in the OED. The restaurant was small and somewhat busy (it was the second day), but that doesn't excuse the service. I had to wait forever to order my meal. I never got a placemat. Finally, I got a knife and fork. I never got the "raita" that comes with it. Then I had to wait forever for my check, then forever for my change. The restaurant got some big press lately for its design, but I could pick a hundred Indian restaurants in New York City where you can get cheap Indian food and get outta there. I sat at a little bar-stool type thing. The plates are rectangular, the meals small. The starters (which I didn't order) such as "beggar's purse" looked better. Another diner's date, an Asian woman, took pity on me. And I thought, how do you do, I'm Barry Popik--ah, forget it. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) The Home Front TOM TREANOR. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 14, 1943. p. A (1 page): Menaka made one exception in favor of the movies. "Bombay Talkies," she said, "often do authentic dances." (FACTIVA) Rev of film 'Bombay Talkie' 11 words 19 November 1970 New York Times Abstracts Pg. 42, Col. 1 English c. 1970 New York Times Company Rev of film 'Bombay Talkie' (NEW YORK TIMES) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/dining/12QUAT.html?oref=login SUNITHA RAMAIAH'S idea for an Indian restaurant featuring street food has become BOMBAY TALKIE, new to 189 Ninth Avenue (21st Street). There are kathi rolls, dosas and blue-plate dishes, each $15; (212) 242-1900. (NEW YORK) http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/food/openings/10782/ On a Roll: Indian street food has become a legitimate New York restaurant subgenre, and the latest entrant in a newly crowded field, Bombay Talkie, is scheduled to open next week, with Aix pastry chef Jehangir Mehta as culinary consultant, Aix chef Didier Virot as wine director, and a menu of dosas and kathi rolls. Bombay Talkie 189 Ninth Ave., nr. 21st St.; 212-242-1900 (NEW YORK TIMES) House & Home/Style Desk; SECTF CURRENTS: INTERIORS For an Indian Restaurant, Birch and Bollywood By ELAINE LOUIE 176 words 30 December 2004 The New York Times Late Edition - Final 3 English Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company. All Rights Reserved. Minimalism meets Bollywood excess at Bombay Talkie, a restaurant that will open on Jan. 10 in Chelsea. ''It's a clean, modern take on Indian teahouses,'' said Sunitha Ramaiah, the owner and a former corporate lawyer. The restaurant features lushly colored paintings based on Bollywood movie posters by J. P. Krishna, an artist in Ms. Ramaiah's home state of Tamil Nadu. ''The paintings had to be prominent, and the backdrop simple,'' said Thomas Juul-Hansen, the architect, below right with Ms. Ramaiah. He painted the walls white and designed simple birch tables, black leather banquettes and a birch veneer ceiling, bottom. His one nod to ornateness is the laser-cut wood veneer wallpaper, called Marquetry, below left, from Maya Romanoff ($100 to $170 a square yard through architects and designers, 800-465-6909). Bombay Talkie is at 189 Ninth Avenue (22nd Street), (212) 242-1900. ELAINE LOUIE From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 13 05:09:38 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:09:38 -0800 Subject: the blendoid In-Reply-To: <94F4972C-64F4-11D9-818B-001124325C14@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2005, at 3:49 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Jan 12, 2005, at 18:01, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion >> in Oakland: >> ... put your balls on the table >> this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, >> candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity associated >> with >> "balls" as in "have the balls to". > > I would add in "balls on the line" as a contributor. ah, well, that makes things more complicated. if "put one's balls on the line" were an idiom, then "put one's balls on the table" would be be a straightforward syntactic blend. *but*... the idiom is "put one's X on the line" 'risk one's X', with X pretty much a free variable. so "balls" really can't be seen as coming from another formulaic expression. still, we have to grant that "put one's balls on the line", as an instantiation of "put one's X on the line", might in fact have been in gb's mind at the moment in question. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 07:20:15 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:20:15 EST Subject: "Let's play two"--from Ed Kranepool? (1969) Message-ID: (ADS-L ARCHIVES, SEPTEMBER 2004) (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) Sun Thursday, October 12, 1972 Lowell, Massachusetts ...It's a great day for baseball. LET'S PLAY TWO." Best-Looking Ushers the Hot.....games are featured on television with PLAY-backs of the interesting incidents.. Pg. 41(?), col. 4: By SCOTT STEWART Copley News Service (...)(Col. 6--ed.) Worst Quote of Year--Chicago's Ernie Banks: "It's a great day for baseball. Let's play two." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- ... Fred Shapiro is finishing his quotations book. I don't know what he has, but Newspaperarchive added some more Chicago newspapers. I took another look at "Let's play two," leaving out "let's." ... I don't know why it was the "worst quote" of 1972. It appears in 1969. ... Did Ed Kranepool of the New York Mets originate it, "paraphrasing" Ernie Banks? 21 June 1969, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 7, cols. 1-3: _Do-It-All Banks Powering_ _Cubs Along Victory Route_ (This is a great Ernie Banks article, going to great lengths to describe his wonderful attitude toward the game, but the quote is NOT here!--ed.) ... ... ... THE VALLEY INDEPENDENT (Monessen, PA) 23 June 1969, pg. 6, col. 1: ... Kranepool listened to Yogi Berra and said: ... "We play the Cubs the last (Col. 2--ed.) two days of the season in Chicago. You know how Ernie Banks is, always happy and so enthusiastic. He always says 'it's a wonderful day, a great day to play two.' Well, I'd love to go into Chicago those last two days with a three-game lead. I'd wait until Banks came out of the dugout and I'd say to him, 'wonderful day, Ernie. Great day to play two.'" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 08:17:05 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:17:05 EST Subject: Dill Pickle (1887) Message-ID: COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: MY NEXT VACATION ... Andy "Tomato/Ketchup/Popcorn.Turkey/Tuna Fish" Smith had speculated that my next trip would be to Bora Bora. The facts are, the dollar is lousy, and I've been to so many places, and with this tsunami devastation, there are not many places to go. ... ALABAMA/FLORIDA--Bill's finding of "the whole nine yards" at Maxwell AFB (Alabama) is interesting. However, Woodford A. Heflin wrote a SECOND AERONAUTICS GLOSSARY (1966) from Maxwell AFB, and "nine yards" ain't there. I would like a second clue before I travel down there. It would help for ProQuest to reach about 1975 with the Los Angeles Times digitization. ... DOMINICAN REPUBLIC--My next trip figures to be the Dominican Republic in February, with my sister and my autistic nephew. She spends about $25,000 for these autism treatments. I have a wonderful sister. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- DILL PICKLE ... In Wednesday's New York Times was a profile of the bachelor "pickler" of the Union Square market. Like the "pickle guy" in the movie CROSSING DELANCEY (1988, starring Amy Irving and Peter Reigert), this guy just needs love. The women at Gothamist.com agreed. ... I'm sure he's a nice guy, and much better than me. ... I had posted on the "dill pickle." Here's earlier. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2pJ1AH6xc8LWLPxDPGUfmIIFSiiXnTayT0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, March 28, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...Mix PICKLES by the Quart. German DILL PICKLES 3 Doz.for 25c. IN GLASS .1.....with the ComThe best value we have in PICKLES is A QUART OF LITTLE GHERKINS.. ... _Atlanta Constitution _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2iTaMNmKYLJYIo5lH3re/d4jbtL4V7NJxQ==) Sunday, October 30, 1887 _Atlanta,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:atlanta+dill+pickles+AND) _Georgia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:georgia+dill+pickles+AND) ...received our mixed PICKLES and DILL PICKLES in bulk. This will also save you.. Pg. 10(?) , col. 3: We have just received our mixed pickles--chow-chow--sweet pickles and Dill pickles in bulk. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2vafQ6uVLFmzRDzVk0lmrE0l7VRH4gCfYw==) Wednesday, January 11, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...PICKLES 15 cts per quart. German DILL PICKLES. Spiced PICKLES. Natural Color.. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2riChRfkj6dGnaF5yTujZi+SUhZhZCKmaUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 29, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...Mix PICKLES by the Quart. German DILL PICKLES 3 Doz. for 25c. cwri WALNUTS, ,N.....ii and de-. The best value we have in PICKLES is A QUART OF LITTLE GHERKINS.. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2pJ1AH6xc8LWh+r3T/oQ1EYtfW0/xA5jwEIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, March 27, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...Mix PICKLES by the Quart. German DILL PICKLES 3 Doz.for 25c. i-l A U I, on oil.....PiCKieS CY The best value we have in PICKLES is QUART Or LITTLE GHERKINS FOR.. ... _Dunkirk Observer Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2vafQ6uVLFmzGMZji3Gv35Bdna2cJLSR6g==) Friday, January 13, 1888 _Dunkirk,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+dill+pickles+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+dill+pickles+AND) ...by leiepbune Mixed PICKLES German DILL PICKLES. 15 els (juart. Spiced PICKLES.....TTCOMOMYC Block, W. C. HECSKK CO. PICKLES FOR ALL PALATES. Will Try to.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 08:53:06 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:53:06 EST Subject: Jewish Champagne (seltzer, celery tonic) (1939) Message-ID: JEWISH CHAMPAGNE--10 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits ... Arthur Schwartz's book on New York food mentions "Jewish champagne." I guess it wasn't of interest to the folks at the Historical Dictionary of American Slang. ... My SABR ProQuest connection is down at the moment. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Rutgers University Press_ (http://rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html) ... Jacob Riis, social critic and photographer. ? Seltzer---"Jewish champagne". "More than the usual appreciation of the Yiddish language. ... rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/ acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html - 32k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BquK1yXjZ4oJ:rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html+"jewish+champagne"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=related:rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Live_And_Be_Well_233.html) Heard on NPR affiliate out of Albany NY: "So what's happening in your neck of the world?" Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Jan 13 17:39:51 2005 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:39:51 -0600 Subject: the blendoid Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arnold M. Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:01 PM > Subject: the blendoid > > uttered by our own Grant Barrett, 1/7/05, at the first WOTY discussion > in Oakland: > ... put your balls on the table > > this is clearly based on "put one's cards on the table" 'be open, > candid', but with an element of bravery and/or audacity > associated with > "balls" as in "have the balls to". (of course, actually putting your > balls on the table would be both open and audacious, not to mention > risky and probably uncomfortable.) this is not your usual blend, for > two reasons: (a) the combining elements are not competing expressions > for the same or similar meanings, but each contributes meaning to the > result, which (i surmise, though grant can speak for himself here) > conveys something like 'have the balls to put one's cards on > the table' Though Lewis Caroll's original description of the 'portmanteau' called for exactly the unusual kind of process: it's what happens when you think two different things simultaneously so that parts of both are uttered. Whether the two slightly different processes (maybe 'lexical access poverty' and 'lexical access surplus'?) give rise to different products is an open question. > ; and (b) the result is not really a structural amalgam of "put one's > cards on the table" and "have to balls to", but really just the former > with "balls" taking the place of "cards". > > the closest thing to this that we've discussed here is, i think, > "bunker down". in the words of jerry cohen, on 10/10/03: > ----- > "Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the > intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea > of hunkering down in a bunker. > ----- > "bunker down" also might have an eggcornesque/malapropistic tinge to > it, if those who use it think that "bunker" makes more sense than > "hunker" (if, for example, they're more familiar with "bunker" than > "hunker"). such a tinge is entirely missing in "put one's > balls on the table". > I'd imagine that any attempt to formalize blending would have to see bunker/hunker as at least a candidate for blending, otherwise you'd have to assume some kind of blanket prohibition against blending occurring between any two items that have a difference of a single phoneme. You could call it "exchange" or "intrusion" if you like, but if the mechanisms are otherwise the same, then where's the benefit? Of course, if we don't follow Carroll's process account, but instead categorize blends on form only (why am I tempted to say 'surface structure'?), then blendoid is fine. Google gives 229 hits for "your balls on the table", with about half of the first 30 not referring to billiards and at least some of the billiards contexts taking clear advantage of the pun ("Put your balls on the table & give them a good whacking.") 134 hits for "his balls on the table" with fewer pool but more poker, and at least one positive reference each to Bush, Kerry, and Chomsky. > in any case, we have one clear model expression, and then a lexical > intrusion from another expression that's floating in the air (more > accurately, in the speaker's mind). a sort-of-blend, or blendoid. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > --Clai Rice From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 13 17:49:32 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:49:32 -0500 Subject: Dill Pickle (1883) Message-ID: Ah, my SABR ProQuest is working again. The ProQuest and Newspaper Archive "Atlanta Constitution" years do not overlap. It's earlier here. Back to work. Another 12,000 years of this stuff tobe a fractionas good as Jason Giambi. Solving "Yankees" sure doesa lot of good! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Display Ad 1 -- No Title The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Nov 11, 1883. p. 1 (1 page) ...and talk about Pickles, where can you see such an assortment of Pickles both imported and domestic, such as mixed Chow Chow, Gherkens Red Hot, German Salt, German Dill, Pickles in barrels, half-barrel, gallons, quarts, pints, and pickles for everybody. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Jan 13 19:44:41 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:44:41 -0500 Subject: Oakland food Message-ID: At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: : We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in : deseperation went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the : beef molcajete, which was so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so : picante that the experience of even the sause was distressing. Ugh. Interesting. Actually, i wasn't too impressed with Le Cheval (especially with the claim on the restaurant guide that it was the best Vietnamese food in Oakland)--yes, Orlando has *much* better Vietnamese places. There was a Cambodian place i had dinner one night and liked it so much i came back for lunch--it was excellent. Battambang, i believe it was called. And i'll agree with others who've said that the hotel was a most excellent host. My general summary, though: This was the most Oriental food-themed conference i've ever been to, no question. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 13 19:56:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:56:54 -0500 Subject: Oakland food In-Reply-To: <017101c4f9a8$5749e8e0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: At 2:44 PM -0500 1/13/05, David Bowie wrote: >At 10:12 PM -0500 1/11/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >: We stood in line at the Thai restaurant for an hour, then in >: deseperation went to the Mexican place down the street. I order the >: beef molcajete, which was so tough I had trouble dhewing it and so >: picante that the experience of even the sause was distressing. Ugh. > >Interesting. Actually, i wasn't too impressed with Le Cheval (especially >with the claim on the restaurant guide that it was the best Vietnamese food >in Oakland)--yes, Orlando has *much* better Vietnamese places. > >There was a Cambodian place i had dinner one night and liked it so much i >came back for lunch--it was excellent. Battambang, i believe it was called. > >And i'll agree with others who've said that the hotel was a most excellent >host. > >My general summary, though: This was the most Oriental food-themed >conference i've ever been to, no question. > Same here. This was the first time I recall voting specifically for a non-Asian choice the last night (that was when we visited the Margarita-chased Mexican place down the block). Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 13 19:57:03 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:57:03 -0500 Subject: A new equivalent of "Joe Blow"? Message-ID: Further to the mysterious surname "Blomee" and the AP news story beginning "STOCKHOLM -- On hundreds of websites worldwide, the messages are brief but poignant: "Missing: Christina Blomee in Khao Lak" or "Where are you?"": I asked my nephew, a Peace Corps volunteer who assisted with the tsunami recovery in Thailand, and he responded as follows: <> Of course, Blomee could still be, so far as I know, a legitimate European surname (presumably Swedish, in light of the Stockholm dateline), but the "blow me" theory seems far more plausible. Incidentally, I didn't give my nephew the dateline when I asked the question. He knows the difference between Switzerland and Sweden. John Baker From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 13 23:37:19 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:37:19 -0500 Subject: codicil gentlemen Message-ID: COMMUNICATION. It is said that a MASQUERADE is held two or three times in the week, at the large house in Warren-street, composed of white, black and yellow, to the great annoyance of the neighborhood and public in general -- besides the total destruction of all the servants, 'prentice-boys and codicil gentlemen in the city. -- Where is the usual vigilance of our Magistrates, that this growing evil is permitted to go on? Commercial Advertiser, January 16, 1800, p. 3, col. 2 "Codicil" is italicized in the original, as is white, black, yellow and growing. I don't see a meaning for "codicil" in the OED that explains this. Perhaps the family scapegrace who is allowed a small allowance in the codicil to his unhappy father's will? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 13 23:39:33 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:39:33 -0500 Subject: codicil gentlemen (minor correction for the fastidious) Message-ID: It was "gentlemen", not codicil, that was italicized. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Thompson Date: Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:37 pm Subject: codicil gentlemen > COMMUNICATION. It is said that a MASQUERADE is held two or three > timesin the week, at the large house in Warren-street, composed of > white,black and yellow, to the great annoyance of the neighborhood > and public > in general -- besides the total destruction of all the > servants, 'prentice-boys and codicil gentlemen in the city. -- > Where is > the usual vigilance of our Magistrates, that this growing evil is > permitted to go on? > Commercial Advertiser, January 16, 1800, p. 3, col. 2 > > "Codicil" is italicized in the original, as is white, black, > yellow and > growing. > > I don't see a meaning for "codicil" in the OED that explains this. > Perhaps the family scapegrace who is allowed a small allowance in the > codicil to his unhappy father's will? > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 14 03:00:18 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:00:18 -0600 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin of "file 13" or "file (sth.) in 13," meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this expression and asked her for an example. She said that if she got sth. of no importance, she might say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in the waste-basket. Years ago I heard a similar expression: "I'll file it under G" (for garbage). Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? Any help would be much appreciated. Gerald Cohen From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 14 03:12:53 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:12:53 -0600 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <200501132200.3241e735c674@rly-na04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: gcohen at UMR.EDU wrote: > Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? > > I use the term all the time myself with that exact same meaning (I've also used "circular file" for the same thing). However, I don't know the origin unless it's an oblique reference to the fact that 13 is unlucky and therefore, many buildings don't have 13th floors (hence a "file 13" would be a "nonexistent" file? It's a pure guess and a stretch on my part.. Patti Kurtz Minot State University > Any help would be much appreciated. > >Gerald Cohen > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 14 03:13:06 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:13:06 -0600 Subject: Richard Bailey (Am.Dial. Soc.) on animal terms Message-ID: > Ads-l member Richard Bailey was interviewed for the item below, forwarded by J. McCollum to Barry Popik and then to me. Btw, the 1870s are way too early for "hot dog" = hot sausage; (first attestation:1895, Yale, discovered by Barry). As for "eat crow," Barry also treated this item in his article: "Material for the Study of _Eat Crow_: Three Versions of Humorous Story Agree That Scotch Snuff Made the Boiled Crow Particularly Unappetizing." in: _Comments on Etymology_, Oct. 2003, vol. 33, no. 1, pp. 7-9. > > Gerald Cohen > > ---------- > From: Joe McCollum > Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2005 6:51 PM > To: bapopik at aol.com > Subject: NewsEMail > > Hey, I don't belong to the linguistics listserv any more, but take a look > at: > > Talking About Words > With Prof. Richard W. Bailey > Eating crow, hot-dogging it and other animal metaphors > quick and dead. > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic09550.jpg)A spiritual > discipline known as breatharianism invites its adherents to > eat only air. Vegetarians eat vegetables. Fruitarians eat > fruit. Breatharians may be forced to eat solid food > sometimes but only because air pollution interferes with > the assimilation of the four gasses fundamental to life: > hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and nitrogen. In a better, > cleaner world, breatharians could thrive solely on inhaling > and exhaling. > > English-speaking breatharians face a further obstacle: Our > language is designed for carnivores and, everywhere we > look, we discover the traces of meat-eating. Eating crow is > accepting humiliation. Chow (and the verb chow down) comes > straight into American English from the China trade. It > means, as a California newspaper of 1856 explained, > > "> something good to eat.> "> So a chow hound is doubly a dog > since the food eaten comes metaphorically from the edible > Chinese dog, the chow chow, and the eager eating from a > famished beagle or blue-tick. > > Hot dog (a noun to describe a cocksure young man) and the > hot dog (an adjective for something pleasant or exciting) > were recorded in American college slang at almost the same > time> -> the former at Yale and the latter at Michigan, both in > the 1890s. (At the University in 1896, a student reported > that there were some hot dog drawings available.) > > > Not long after that we got hot dog! the equivalent of > > "> Bravo!> "> -> and its companions: hot doggies! and hot diggety > dog! Nowadays aviators, surfers, snowboarders and all > manner of athletes attract attention by hot-dogging, though > these verbal meanings came much later. (Somewhere in this > barking collection of words come the wiener or frankfurter. > Examples of eating hot dogs come earlier than these > meanings, and in the 1870s it was common for people to > frequent the hot-dog parlors of New York. It remains to be > seen how the sausage made a metaphor for the sassy and > smart.) > > Greedy people wolf down food or pig out. In The Merry Wives > of Windsor, Shakespeare gave us the expression, > "> The > world's mine oyster> "> for having boundless opportunities, > > having a juicy delicacy to slurp down. > > Animals are not just the eating or the eaten, of course. > Animals are everywhere. > "> Don't have a cow, man,> "> admonishes > Bart Simpson. He might as well have said go bananas, but > Bart's an animal guy. People flounder around indecisively, > weasel out of obligations, horse around having fun, > squirrel away their savings, beef up their resum?, chicken > out when courage fails, grouse about their boss, beaver > away at their job, outfox the competition. > > > Of course some of these expressions just look like animals. > The bum steer (bad advice) is probably not bovine, any more > than we should expect quacking in duck down or duck out. > But once these words come to our attention, we want the > animals to come alive. > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic30894.jpg) > > > We imagine animals. Is there a bison in the person who is > buffaloed by a problem? Do dances like the mamba and the > bunny hug actually resemble the behavior of the creatures > for which they seem to be named? Is there a baby deer > hovering around the person who fawns on her best friend or > a tropical bird squawking in the guy who parrots the ideas > of others? > > > Some of these metaphors we can be pretty sure about if > we've seen the beast involved. Clam up makes sense, but > does the mullet > "> bad hair style> "> have something to do with > the fish? Bear hug, yes, but have a gander, no. People can > be catty or turkeys or gorillas or coltish or skunks. Do > animals come to mind with equal vividness? Go bats and buck > naked are not very obviously connected with animals at all. > > > Everybody has a different piece of the language and a > different set of associations and imaginings. Some of these > animals are quick, some dead. They are all metaphors. > > (Crow image on front page from quilt at > http://www.joyfield.net) > > > (Embedded image moved to file: pic08892.jpg)Richard W. > Bailey is the Fred Newton Scott Collegiate Professor of > English. His most recent book is Rogue Scholar: The > Sinister Life and Celebrated Death of Edward H. Rulloff, > University of Michigan Press, 2003> -> a biography of an > American thief, impostor, murderer and would-be philologist > who lived from 1821 to 1871. It was published by the > University of Michigan Press in 2003. > > U-M News Service Link: http://www.umich.edu/news/MT/NewsE > > From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Jan 14 03:33:58 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:33:58 -0600 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: I'm reasonably certain that I know it as pre-1980. My wife also knows it as waste-basket and she last worked in an office in 1980 (in St. Louis) but has no idea when she heard it first. Both of us are mid-60s central Illinois HS products. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 14 04:28:13 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:28:13 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin of "file 13" or "file >(sth.) in 13," >meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this expression and asked >her for an example. She said that if she got sth. of no importance, she >might say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in the waste-basket. >Years ago I heard a similar expression: "I'll file it under G" (for >garbage). > Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone >know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? > Any help would be much appreciated. >Gerald Cohen ~~~~~~ I haven't heard this, but the choice of "13" woould seem to be a normal extension of superstitions about that number. Sort of like the non-exisence of a 13th floor in some buildings: consigning it to oblivion, like dropping it in the oubliette. A. Murie From lgerrd at ROCHESTER.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 04:34:15 2005 From: lgerrd at ROCHESTER.RR.COM (Michael McGrath) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:34:15 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: Long shot: a common size garbage bag is a 13-gallon size. Mike McGrath ----- Original Message ----- From: "sagehen" To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin of "file 13" or "file >>(sth.) in 13," >>meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this expression and asked >>her for an example. She said that if she got sth. of no importance, she >>might say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in the waste-basket. >>Years ago I heard a similar expression: "I'll file it under G" (for >>garbage). > >> Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in 13"? And would anyone >>know why "13" was chosen and not, say, 12? > >> Any help would be much appreciated. > >>Gerald Cohen > ~~~~~~ > I haven't heard this, but the choice of "13" woould seem to be a normal > extension of superstitions about that number. Sort of like the > non-exisence of a 13th floor in some buildings: consigning it to oblivion, > like dropping it in the oubliette. > A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 14 04:52:29 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:52:29 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <05ba01c4f9ea$7238b900$065f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Dave Hause > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > > > I'm reasonably certain that I know it as pre-1980. My wife also > knows it as > waste-basket and she last worked in an office in 1980 (in St. > Louis) but has > no idea when she heard it first. Both of us are mid-60s central > Illinois HS > products. I know it from 1986, which is when I entered the workforce. So a pre-1980 date is certainly reasonable. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 14 05:05:49 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:05:49 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Zanesville Signal_ (Zanesville OH), 5 April 1955: p. 1, col. 2: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From gorion at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 14 05:17:09 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:17:09 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <6711908395276628027@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: My cousin -- born (late 70s) and raised in Buckner, MO (outside Kansas City) -- has for several years had a band called File 13. What I recall of his explanation of its usage referred mainly to stopping a discussion of intimately unpleasant topics -- say someone asked about the recent death of a relative, and you tried to be game but you get sick of talking about it, you'd say "let's put that under file 13." I found that description unsatisfying but it was the best I could get. Oh, maybe he doesn't have that band anymore -- at least the domain file13.net is now taken by someone else, who calls it his "personal web trash bin". whois gives a Michigan zip and area code. O. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 14 05:51:16 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:51:16 EST Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) Message-ID: THIRD RAIL + SOCIAL SECURITY--18,800 Google hits, 776 Google Groups hits ... Wednesday's Comedy Central DAILY SHOW started off with Jon Stewart's riff on George Bush and Social Security. Bush promised that he wouldn't touch it. "Touch it?" Stewart asked. Stewart reminded viewers that Social Security was "the third rail of American politics." ... I don't know what Fred Shapiro has on this classic American political description. ... I don't know much about American political slang (I'm in the middle of ten thousand years of parking tickets, some divine punishment from God), so I turned to the expert source. That would be Oxford University Press and HATCHET JOBS AND HARDBALL: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POLITICAL SLANG (2004), edited by Grant Barrett. "Third rail of American politics" is not there!! (In fairness, Grant has been spending late nights all year on _www.barrypopik.com_ (http://www.barrypopik.com) . Oh, I jest!) ... My SABR ProQuest doesn't get the Wall Street Journal, but it does include the Washington Post. I noticed that NYU has a new Congressional full-text database, and it might be there. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Intelligencer _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2phGE4QmaoT/fSOAITjOXz7Ix/AhcDwM1UIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, August 11, 1985 _Doylestown,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:doylestown+third+rail+and+social+security+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+third+rail+and+so cial+security+AND) ...to cover. It has been called the THIRD RAIL of American politics. Two.....a statement mark- ing the 50th called SOCIAL SECURITY of the most successful.. ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3YGl/Jks4m6KID/6NLMW2kBd5KOrlaK1X0QO/gnlWXX6rqRKGZwYe0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 14, 1985 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+third+rail+and+social+security+AND) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+third+rail+and+social+ security+AND) ...coun- the system has evolved into THIRD RAIL of American poli- touch it.....AND New Rochelle. Syracuse August 1985 SOCIAL SECURITY survives By Thomas.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) . _Reagan Tiptoes Around Some Economic Liabilities_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=120348837&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=30 9&VName=HNP&TS=1105680428&clientId=65882) By STEVEN R. WEISMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1982. p. E4 (1 page) : ... But it is no secret at the White House that in the back of everybody's mind there us another possible item for the agenda of a lame-duck session--Social Security, an issue so hazardous that an aide to Speaker O'Neill refers to it as "the third rail of American politics." Anyone who touches it gets electrocuted politically. ... _A Hand Reaches for Hot Potato of Social Security_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=112300504&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 09&VName=HNP&TS=1105680428&clientId=65882) Hedrick SmithSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1983. p. A12 (1 page) : ... WASHINGTON, Jan. 6--Revising the SOcial Security system has become such a politically lethal issue that most politicians refer to it as the "third rail--touch it and you're dead." From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 05:58:41 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:58:41 -0500 Subject: antedating of "waiting for the other shoe to drop" 1905 Message-ID: Barry took it back to 1921 in the NY Times early last year. I searched the archive, but don't believe anyone got farther than that. Using Proquest Chicago Tribune, April 16, 1905, p. D7 >>"At one time we lived under a couple for months. The man came home 'loaded' half the time, and Mark Twain's story about waiting to hear the other shoe drop was borne in upon me. He always knocked over a chair while preparing for bed, and I have waited in an agony of suspense for half an hour, listening to him prowling around in the dark looking for his nightshirt, for him to knock over that chair, and when it finally crashed down upon the floor I went to sleep happy.<< So, perhaps Twain first used this. Any takers? Ben? Sam Clements From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 06:16:42 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:16:42 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: There's a 1945 cite in the NY Times from a GI, saying "1. War. "(A) Lay off it, put it in File 13. Together with a 1955 cite saying that File 13 is Pentagonese, and "deep six" is Navy for the same thing, one concludes a military origin. SC From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 14 06:28:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:28:02 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David Feldman's book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in which he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill sergeant's marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to Feldman, suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": -------- _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his signal when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the signal [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for the players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. -------- This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The quarterback may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or third "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: -------- Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as immune from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three backs in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the backs shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a second "Hip," but always the play is off. -------- Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, aged 3, was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he was calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he changed positions and everything. -------- New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, two, three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! -------- Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole point of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! They could knit a sweater between your signals!" -------- Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have evoked not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to the Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). -------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field moves hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. -------- _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin coach has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their hip-hip-hop shift. -------- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 14 06:58:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:58:53 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:17:09 -0500, Orion Montoya wrote: >My cousin -- born (late 70s) and raised in Buckner, MO (outside Kansas >City) -- has for several years had a band called File 13. What I >recall of his explanation of its usage referred mainly to stopping a >discussion of intimately unpleasant topics -- say someone asked about >the recent death of a relative, and you tried to be game but you get >sick of talking about it, you'd say "let's put that under file 13." I >found that description unsatisfying but it was the best I could get. > >Oh, maybe he doesn't have that band anymore -- at least the domain >file13.net is now taken by someone else, who calls it his "personal >web trash bin". whois gives a Michigan zip and area code. There's also , a site for a postpunk record label. More info here: . And I see that Allmusic.com lists a band named "File 13" whose single "Taste So Good" hit #37 on the Billboard dance charts in 1984. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 14 08:55:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 03:55:43 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:51:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: >Sep 26, 1982. p. E4 (1 page) : >... >But it is no secret at the White House that in the back of everybody's >mind there us another possible item for the agenda of a lame-duck >session--Social Security, an issue so hazardous that an aide to Speaker >O'Neill refers to it as "the third rail of American politics." Anyone >who touches it gets electrocuted politically. That aide, according to many sources, was Kirk O'Donnell. First explicit attribution I can find to O'Donnell is in a 1988 Boston Globe column by Thomas Oliphant. This is from a 1998 Oliphant column that was read into the Congressional record after O'Donnell died: ------ http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r105:E15SE8-10: Just for the record, O'Donnell was more than enough of a city lover and urban scholar to know about subway analogies in politics. But he was the guy, in 1981, who called Social Security the third rail of American politics; few lines have been ripped off more. ------ See also this piece by Lawrence O'Donnell, Jr.: ------ http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/columns/nationalinterest/2851/ "Social Security is the third rail of American politics. You touch it and you die." My cousin Kirk O'Donnell was the first to speak those words twenty years ago, when he was counsel to the Democratic Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill. ------ --Ben Zimmer From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 14 10:47:23 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:47:23 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O Message-ID: For those interested in the term, see The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8.3, 1993, p 109). David barnhart at highlands.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 13:14:20 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:14:20 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Round file", meaning the waste basket, is the expression I'm familiar with. I don't recall ever hearing "file 13" or "file under G". --- "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: > Today a secretary asked me if I know the origin > of "file 13" or "file (sth.) in 13," > meaning to throw sth. away. I had never heard this > expression and asked her for an example. She said > that if she got sth. of no importance, she might > say, "Oh, I'll file this in 13," i.e., toss it in > the waste-basket. Years ago I heard a similar > expression: "I'll file it under G" (for garbage). > > Has anyone heard of "file 13" or "file it in > 13"? And would anyone know why "13" was chosen and > not, say, 12? > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Gerald Cohen > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 14 15:21:00 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:21:00 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) In-Reply-To: <80.1f136c2f.2f18b7d4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 12:51:16AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ... > I don't know much about American political slang (I'm in the middle of ten > thousand years of parking tickets, some divine punishment from God), so I > turned to the expert source. That would be Oxford University Press and HATCHET > JOBS AND HARDBALL: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POLITICAL SLANG (2004), > edited by Grant Barrett. "Third rail of American politics" is not there!! It is, however, in OED. I'd love to get a 1981 quote, which is the date attributed to the use in the Congressional Record quote Ben posted, but for now our best is May 1982. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jan 14 15:43:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:43:14 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail of American Politics" (Social Security) (1982, Tip O'Neill?) In-Reply-To: <80.1f136c2f.2f18b7d4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 00:51, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know much about American political slang (I'm in the middle of > ten > thousand years of parking tickets, some divine punishment from God), > so I > turned to the expert source. That would be Oxford University Press > and HATCHET > JOBS AND HARDBALL: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN POLITICAL SLANG > (2004), > edited by Grant Barrett. "Third rail of American politics" is not > there!! (In > fairness, Grant has been spending late nights all year on > _www.barrypopik.com_ > (http://www.barrypopik.com) . Oh, I jest!) Don't be a jerk, Barry. Grant Barrett From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 14 16:11:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:11:21 -0600 Subject: saucermen Message-ID: OED has 1967 for "saucermen" (under saucer, n.). This comic book http://www.cufon.org/comics/1950/SpaceWestern40.htm has a story titled "Spurs Jackson vs. the Saucer-Men" _Space Western Comics_ No.40, Charlton Publications, September/October 1952 The gallery of comic book covers from which it comes http://cufon.org/comics/ComicsGal1947-9.htm has several pictures of "flying saucers" that predate June 1947, but do not use the term "flying saucer" (at least on the front covers shown) to describe them. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 16:52:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:52:48 -0800 Subject: saucermen Message-ID: What a great collection of sub-artistic illustrations, Bill! It nearly froze my heart to see Lana Turner falling out of that saucer! And Captain Marvel beating up a potato! Wonder what happened next...? JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: saucermen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OED has 1967 for "saucermen" (under saucer, n.). This comic book http://www.cufon.org/comics/1950/SpaceWestern40.htm has a story titled "Spurs Jackson vs. the Saucer-Men" _Space Western Comics_ No.40, Charlton Publications, September/October 1952 The gallery of comic book covers from which it comes http://cufon.org/comics/ComicsGal1947-9.htm has several pictures of "flying saucers" that predate June 1947, but do not use the term "flying saucer" (at least on the front covers shown) to describe them. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 16:56:14 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:56:14 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: I guess some people were just too cheap to buy HDAS I.... JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's a 1945 cite in the NY Times from a GI, saying "1. War. "(A) Lay off it, put it in File 13. Together with a 1955 cite saying that File 13 is Pentagonese, and "deep six" is Navy for the same thing, one concludes a military origin. SC --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 14 17:38:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:38:44 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? In-Reply-To: <20755.69.142.143.59.1105684082.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David Feldman's >book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in which >he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill sergeant's >marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. > >One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to Feldman, >suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of football... > >-------- >_Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his signal >when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the signal >[he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for the >players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >-------- > >This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The quarterback >may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or third >"hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: > >-------- >Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as immune >from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three backs >in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the backs >shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a second >"Hip," but always the play is off. >-------- >Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, aged 3, >was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he was >calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >changed positions and everything. >-------- >New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, two, >three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >-------- >Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >"Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole point >of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! They >could knit a sweater between your signals!" >-------- > >Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have evoked >not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to the >Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >"hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). > >-------- >_Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field moves >hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >-------- >_Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin coach >has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >hip-hip-hop shift. >-------- > > >--Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 14 18:08:13 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:08:13 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) In-Reply-To: <20050114050055.1665DB296C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dave Hause says: >>>>> I'm reasonably certain that I know it as pre-1980. <<<<< Likewise, as a nominal referring to the trash basket. New York City area. Maybe even pre-1970. I always associated it with 13= 'unlucky', rather than specifically with the missing number of the floor. Semi-apropos, is anyone else familiar with "A Tale of the 13th Floor" by Ogden Nash? Untypically for him, it is in strict rhyme and meter, what I later learned is the Reading Gaol stanza. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 14 19:11:48 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:11:48 EST Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: I'm reasonably certain I heard both "file 13" and either "round file" or "circular file" in elementary school in the late 1950's. I seem to recall one teacher who consistently used at least one of those expressions . Why "13"? Because 13 is the unluckly number, and it's easy to make a mental transfer between "unlucky" and "oblivion"---other ADS-L members have suggested such transfers already. By the way, why do so many buildings lack a 13th floor while nobody seems to mind being in a building on 13th Street? I can state with some confidence that I first became aware of "bit-bucket" (a mythical place to which missing data disappears, sort of a wastebasket for computer data) in late 1969, when I first reported to the Pentagon. There was a standing joke that my supervisor Major Hodge had with a straight face put in a written requisition for a bit bucket. - Jim Landau From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Jan 14 19:21:06 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:21:06 -0500 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) > I guess some people were just too cheap to buy HDAS I.... > > JL Just to stupid to pull my copy off the shelf before I wasted everyone's time. RHDAS has 1941 and after, most all military cites. SC From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 14 19:27:56 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:27:56 EST Subject: shack up Message-ID: It probably hasn't made the major media markets, but down here in South Jersey we've been having fun with the Fox reality show "The SImple Life." First they were banned from /byoona/ Township, where they were originally supposed to take cafeteria jobs in Buena-Cleary Middle School. Banned! Yes, parents protested that Paris Hilton, who once did an X-rated video, was not a good role model for their kids. So Hilton and Richie ended up at Caprioni Portable Toilets, a business that cleans portable toilets at construction sites. I almost think I'll watch that episode. >From Brian Ianieri "'Simple Life' lands in Cape County" _Atlantic City Press_ January 13, 2005, page A1 with jump to page A7 It's "The Simple life," a reality-based Fox television show that puts Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie in situations that the young millionaires and their diamond-encrusted cell [page A7] phones would otherwise never encounter. They shack up with pre-selected families, and chaos ensues. - James A. Landau From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Jan 14 19:53:12 2005 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:53:12 -0500 Subject: shack up In-Reply-To: <200501141928.j0EJS7p9002680@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: On my dorm hall Fall 1968 Brandeis U. two freshmen were put together by the housing office: Phil Shack and Ted Gup. S. Goranson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 14 21:10:57 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:10:57 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >> Feldman's >> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >> which >> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >> sergeant's >> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >> >> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >> Feldman, >> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": > > thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of > football... Well-played, Larry! For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any case. -Wilson > >> >> -------- >> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >> signal >> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >> signal >> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >> the >> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >> -------- >> >> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >> quarterback >> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >> third >> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >> >> -------- >> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >> immune >> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >> backs >> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >> backs >> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >> second >> "Hip," but always the play is off. >> -------- >> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >> aged 3, >> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >> was >> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >> changed positions and everything. >> -------- >> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >> two, >> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >> -------- >> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >> point >> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! >> They >> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >> -------- >> >> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >> evoked >> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >> the >> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >> >> -------- >> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >> moves >> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >> -------- >> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >> coach >> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >> hip-hip-hop shift. >> -------- >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 22:14:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:49 -0800 Subject: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) Message-ID: My mother uses "round file." She says it was common in NYC in the forties. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: Query: "file 13" (throw sth. away) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm reasonably certain I heard both "file 13" and either "round file" or "circular file" in elementary school in the late 1950's. I seem to recall one teacher who consistently used at least one of those expressions . Why "13"? Because 13 is the unluckly number, and it's easy to make a mental transfer between "unlucky" and "oblivion"---other ADS-L members have suggested such transfers already. By the way, why do so many buildings lack a 13th floor while nobody seems to mind being in a building on 13th Street? I can state with some confidence that I first became aware of "bit-bucket" (a mythical place to which missing data disappears, sort of a wastebasket for computer data) in late 1969, when I first reported to the Pentagon. There was a standing joke that my supervisor Major Hodge had with a straight face put in a written requisition for a bit bucket. - Jim Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 14 22:15:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:15:21 -0500 Subject: shack up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 2:27 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: shack up > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It probably hasn't made the major media markets, but down here in South > Jersey we've been having fun with the Fox reality show "The SImple > Life." First > they were banned from /byoona/ Re: /byoona/ There's a town in California named Buena /byoona/ Park. However, the name of the town of Buena Vista has the pseudo-Spanish pronunciation Buena /bweyna/ Vista. -Wilson > Township, where they were originally supposed to > take cafeteria jobs in Buena-Cleary Middle School. Banned! Yes, > parents > protested that Paris Hilton, who once did an X-rated video, was not a > good role > model for their kids. > > So Hilton and Richie ended up at Caprioni Portable Toilets, a business > that > cleans portable toilets at construction sites. I almost think I'll > watch that > episode. > > From Brian Ianieri "'Simple Life' lands in Cape County" _Atlantic City > Press_ January 13, 2005, page A1 with jump to page A7 > > It's "The Simple life," a reality-based Fox television show that > puts > Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie in situations that the young > millionaires and their > diamond-encrusted cell [page A7] phones would otherwise never > encounter. > They shack up with pre-selected families, and chaos ensues. > > > - James A. Landau > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 22:18:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:18:51 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote:---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >> Feldman's >> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >> which >> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >> sergeant's >> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >> >> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >> Feldman, >> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": > > thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of > football... Well-played, Larry! For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any case. -Wilson > >> >> -------- >> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >> signal >> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >> signal >> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >> the >> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >> -------- >> >> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >> quarterback >> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >> third >> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >> >> -------- >> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >> immune >> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >> backs >> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >> backs >> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >> second >> "Hip," but always the play is off. >> -------- >> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >> aged 3, >> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >> was >> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >> changed positions and everything. >> -------- >> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >> two, >> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >> -------- >> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >> point >> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! >> They >> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >> -------- >> >> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >> evoked >> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >> the >> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >> >> -------- >> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >> moves >> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >> -------- >> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >> coach >> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >> hip-hip-hop shift. >> -------- >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 14 22:28:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:28:06 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a fifties novel. "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" Was phonological change in Middle English ever so expressive as this? JL || "Ev'ry time I stand retreat, / Jody gets a piece of meat." || Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >> Feldman's >> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >> which >> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >> sergeant's >> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >> >> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >> Feldman, >> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": > > thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of > football... Well-played, Larry! For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any case. -Wilson > >> >> -------- >> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >> signal >> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >> signal >> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >> the >> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >> -------- >> >> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, which >> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >> quarterback >> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >> third >> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >> >> -------- >> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >> immune >> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >> backs >> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >> backs >> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >> second >> "Hip," but always the play is off. >> -------- >> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >> aged 3, >> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >> was >> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >> changed positions and everything. >> -------- >> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two three"... >> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >> two, >> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >> -------- >> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >> point >> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! >> They >> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >> -------- >> >> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >> evoked >> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >> the >> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >> >> -------- >> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >> moves >> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >> -------- >> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a length >> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >> coach >> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >> hip-hip-hop shift. >> -------- >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 14 23:15:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:15:27 -0500 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > Was phonological change in Middle English ever so expressive as this? > > JL > > || "Ev'ry time I stand retreat, / Jody gets a piece of meat." || Jon, your example cadence sounds like one from the marines, where the sergeants seem to pride themselves in making the cadence count as unusual as their artistry in dismounted drill - marching practice - will permit. Back in the day, there was a TV show called "The Lieutenant," about life in the pre-Vietnam Corps, which opened with the sound of sergeants calling cadence. It sounded very much like your horrible example. As coincidence would have it, at that time, I was dating a former woman marine. (It's not funny, dammit! She was my best buddy's girlfriend's best friend. You know the drill.) She often commented that she enjoyed that show because she loved to hear the various countings of cadence that separated the show from the commercials. It took her back to the good old days at Camp Pendleton. Our packs are heavy / Our belts are tight / Our scrotes are swingin' from / LEFT to RIGHT -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >>> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >>> Feldman's >>> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >>> which >>> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >>> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >>> sergeant's >>> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >>> >>> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >>> Feldman, >>> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": >> >> thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of >> football... > > Well-played, Larry! > > For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended > approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" > I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is > codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any > case. > > -Wilson > >> >>> >>> -------- >>> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >>> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >>> signal >>> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >>> signal >>> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >>> the >>> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >>> -------- >>> >>> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, >>> which >>> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >>> quarterback >>> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >>> third >>> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >>> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >>> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >>> >>> -------- >>> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >>> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >>> immune >>> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >>> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >>> backs >>> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >>> backs >>> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >>> second >>> "Hip," but always the play is off. >>> -------- >>> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >>> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >>> aged 3, >>> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >>> was >>> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >>> changed positions and everything. >>> -------- >>> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >>> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two >>> three"... >>> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >>> two, >>> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >>> -------- >>> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >>> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >>> point >>> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! >>> They >>> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >>> -------- >>> >>> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >>> evoked >>> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >>> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >>> the >>> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >>> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >>> >>> -------- >>> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >>> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >>> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >>> moves >>> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >>> -------- >>> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >>> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a >>> length >>> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >>> coach >>> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >>> hip-hip-hop shift. >>> -------- >>> >>> >>> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sat Jan 15 02:09:43 2005 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:09:43 +1000 Subject: hullawaley Message-ID: Dear colleagues A word has come up which looks British dialectal, but I can't track it down. A Berkshire, UK migrant en route to Australia in 1855 wrote in his diary that there had been "A regular hullawaley" on deck, meaning a hullabaloo. Can anyone help with this? is it known in American dialect dictionaries? Nowt on the web, so it could be rather local. Many thanks Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA University's CRICOS provider number: 00025B Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sat Jan 15 05:09:32 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:09:32 -0600 Subject: New-to-me: Virtual Assistant Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:46:43 -0000 From: "Ari" Subject: JOB: Professional/Virtual Assistant needed | Nationwide This is a salaried position. Must have a great work ethic and personality. Please visit: http://www.arihinnant.com/jobs.html -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 15 13:38:43 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:38:43 -0500 Subject: The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" In-Reply-To: <80.1f136c2f.2f18b7d4@aol.com> Message-ID: At the risk of providing further ammunition to a certain person's extensive complaints of neglect, let me point out that The New Yorker, 17 Jan. 2005, p. 40, has an item about the New-York Historical Society that includes the following: "The most commonly asked question is about the origin of the term 'The Big Apple.' (It seems to have started with African-American stable-hands in New Orleans in the nineteen-twenties; an earlier usage of the term, in a 1909 collection of vignettes called 'The Wayfarer in New York,' is, according to the Historical Society's official line, a red herring.)" In terms of spreading truth rather the usual etymological bullshit, the above scores pretty highly. Regrettably, however, it fails to give credit to Barry Popik for his pivotal role in illuminating this term. Fred Shapiro From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 15:45:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:45:01 -0800 Subject: hullawaley Message-ID: Unknown to me. JL "Prof. R. Sussex" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Prof. R. Sussex" Subject: hullawaley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear colleagues A word has come up which looks British dialectal, but I can't track it down. A Berkshire, UK migrant en route to Australia in 1855 wrote in his diary that there had been "A regular hullawaley" on deck, meaning a hullabaloo. Can anyone help with this? is it known in American dialect dictionaries? Nowt on the web, so it could be rather local. Many thanks Roly Sussex -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA University's CRICOS provider number: 00025B Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32) Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 6799 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Applied linguistics website: http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm ********************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 15:55:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:55:27 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Wish I could remember my source, Wilson - maybe it WAS "The Lieutenant," though I usually watched something else in that time slot - can't remember what, though. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > Was phonological change in Middle English ever so expressive as this? > > JL > > || "Ev'ry time I stand retreat, / Jody gets a piece of meat." || Jon, your example cadence sounds like one from the marines, where the sergeants seem to pride themselves in making the cadence count as unusual as their artistry in dismounted drill - marching practice - will permit. Back in the day, there was a TV show called "The Lieutenant," about life in the pre-Vietnam Corps, which opened with the sound of sergeants calling cadence. It sounded very much like your horrible example. As coincidence would have it, at that time, I was dating a former woman marine. (It's not funny, dammit! She was my best buddy's girlfriend's best friend. You know the drill.) She often commented that she enjoyed that show because she loved to hear the various countings of cadence that separated the show from the commercials. It took her back to the good old days at Camp Pendleton. Our packs are heavy / Our belts are tight / Our scrotes are swingin' from / LEFT to RIGHT -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> At 1:28 AM -0500 1/14/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>> A couple of weeks ago Barry Popik inquired about the origin of the >>> quarterback's interjection "hut". I recently came across David >>> Feldman's >>> book of "Imponderables", _When Did Wild Poodles Roam the Earth?_, in >>> which >>> he discusses the question. Feldman's sources on football history all >>> agree that the quarterback's "hut" is modeled on the Army drill >>> sergeant's >>> marching cadence of "hut 2-3-4". That had been my guess. >>> >>> One of the football historians also sent the following tidbit to >>> Feldman, >>> suggesting that the preferred interjection was once "hip": >> >> thereby demonstrating the seminal role of Wolof in the evolution of >> football... > > Well-played, Larry! > > For the record, the official spelling - and the officially-recommended > approximate pronunciation - of the cadence is "HUT! TOOP! THREEP! FAW!" > I can no longer remember the number of the Army manual in which this is > codified. But I don't think that anybody here really cares, in any > case. > > -Wilson > >> >>> >>> -------- >>> _Spalding's How to Play Football_, 1921 >>> When shift formations are tried, the quarter-back should give his >>> signal >>> when the men are in their original places. Then after calling the >>> signal >>> [he] can use the word "hip" for the first shift and then repeat for >>> the >>> players to take up their new positions on the line of scrimmage. >>> -------- >>> >>> This seems a bit different from the use of "hut" since the '50s, >>> which >>> doesn't necessarily signal a shift of the offensive line. The >>> quarterback >>> may signal for the center to snap the ball on the first, second, or >>> third >>> "hut" without any shift being called. But perhaps the origins of the >>> modern "hut" can be traced to this signal for a shift, most often >>> associated with Knute Rockne's teams at Notre Dame. Some cites: >>> >>> -------- >>> Lincoln Star (Nebraska), Oct 31, 1926, p. 7/4 >>> Let us take a look at the Notre Dame offense. At the start it is as >>> immune >>> from power as an 1888 formation would be if brought into play today. >>> Merely a balanced line and the old style backfield arrangement three >>> backs >>> in a row with the quarter under center. Then comes the "Hip" and the >>> backs >>> shift to either side of center into a "Z" formation, occasionally a >>> second >>> "Hip," but always the play is off. >>> -------- >>> Chicago Daily Tribune, Dec 6, 1929, p. 28/2 >>> Well, I went out to see Rockne all right and the youngest Rockne, >>> aged 3, >>> was in the living room playing football with an older brother, and he >>> was >>> calling signals and doing the Notre Dame shift with the "hip" as he >>> changed positions and everything. >>> -------- >>> New York Times, Oct 17, 1935, p. 30/2 >>> The Blue quarterback barks: "One, two, three-- hip! One, two >>> three"... >>> The Blue came rushing up to the line with renewed savage shouts. One, >>> two, >>> three-- hip! One, two, three-- and away! >>> -------- >>> Gettysburg Compiler (Penn.), Dec 7, 1940, p. 4/7 >>> "Listen, Stuhldreher! You're calling the 'hip' too slow! The whole >>> point >>> of this shift is to catch our opponents by surprise?- off-balance! >>> They >>> could knit a sweater between your signals!" >>> -------- >>> >>> Interestingly, the "hip" signal of Rockne's quarterbacks might have >>> evoked >>> not only marching cadences but also the "hip-hop" movement that the >>> offensive line made with every shift. There are cites referring to >>> the >>> Notre Dame shift with the terms "hip-hop", "hippity-hop", and >>> "hip-hip-hop" (half a century before "Rapper's Delight"!). >>> >>> -------- >>> _Chicago Daily Tribune_ Oct 7, 1928, p. N3/8 >>> There's that rhythmic shift of Rockne's-- one, two-- to the left-- >>> hip-hop! ... Now watch that dancing sidestep, the whole back field >>> moves >>> hippity-hop to the left in perfect tempo. >>> -------- >>> _Los Angeles Times_ Sep 18, 1931, p. II9/6 >>> After more than an hour of this tough work, Spaulding started a >>> length >>> signal drill with the teams aligned as mentioned above. The Bruin >>> coach >>> has his backs counting one, two, three, a la Notre Dame, on their >>> hip-hip-hop shift. >>> -------- >>> >>> >>> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 15 17:01:43 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:01:43 -0600 Subject: The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: Any criticism for the failure of the NY Historical Society to credit Barry Popik for his "Big Apple" discoveries should be directed at me rather than the NYHS. A year or two ago I contacted Mariam Touba (reference librarian, NYHS) about Peter Salwen's hoax that "The Big Apple" derives from a story about prostitutes. The NYHS was previously unaware of the hoax and considered the story a possible bona fide deriviation. Ms. Touba was very grateful for the correction and sent me a revised treatment--evidently the one which the New Yorker has recently relied on. And here we get to my mea culpa: I never got back to Ms. Touba to thank her for the rewritten version and to mention it would be good to include specific mention of Barry. I'll belatedly try to make good on both points next week. Gerald Cohen P.S. The planned second edition of my _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple"_ will have Barry as co-author and include his very valuable material. The revised edition will be completed this summer (2005) or at the latest in 2006. > ---------- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Fred Shapiro > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:38 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" > > At the risk of providing further ammunition to a certain person's extensive complaints of neglect, let me point out that The New Yorker, 17 Jan. 2005, p. 40, has an item about the New-York Historical Society that includes the following: "The most commonly asked question is > about the origin of the term 'The Big Apple.' (It seems to have started with African-American stable-hands in New Orleans in the nineteen-twenties; an earlier usage of the term, in a 1909 collection of vignettes called 'The Wayfarer in New York,' is, according to the > Historical Society's official line, a red herring.)" > > In terms of spreading truth rather the usual etymological bullshit, the above scores pretty highly. Regrettably, however, it fails to give credit to Barry Popik for his pivotal role in illuminating this > term. > > Fred Shapiro > > > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 15 18:00:33 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:00:33 -0800 Subject: birthday pants Message-ID: caught in the most recent New Yorker, "in one's birthday pants" 'naked from the waist down': Nancy Franklin, ?Women Gone Wild? (review of tv show ?Desperate Housewives?), The New Yorker, 1/17/05, p. 92: ----- At the same time, the stresses in the women?s lives are played for comedy (and sometimes as an attempt to get two laughs out of one joke?in two episodes early in the series, two different characters are caught outside naked, one in her full birthday suit and one in his birthday pants). ----- google had ca. 470 webhits on "birthday pants", most about pants as birthday presents, some from porn sites that i don't understand, a fair number from .ru sites selling clothes (which i also don't understand). but then, from the Moxy Fruvous (canadian rock group, very entertaining) fan site (i haven't figured out the year of posting): ----- http://www.fruhead.com/mod/forum/view-thread.php? forum_id=8&thread_id=392 I was having an argument recently with a friend about whether or not "Birthday Suit" (nakedness) could be modified to "Birthday Pants" in the event that one is not wearing any pants. Any thoughts on this? (Zacques, July 13) does that mean you can also have a birthday shirt? (siobhan, July 14) ----- and from yet another site, suggesting that "birthday pants" might refer to crotchless pants (obviously not what was featured in "Desperate Housewives", but possibly what the porn sites were going on about): ----- http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13412.html Originally posted by sweet sensation Lol !! Or crotchless ones...:eyebrow: Disgraceful words from such a pleaseant young lady :naughty: Them birthday pants are comfy, but best not go out in public in em eh. (pacman, 1/15/03) ----- arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 15 18:26:24 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:26:24 EST Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: THE NEW YORKER ON "THE BIG APPLE" ... Maybe in fifty years when most of us are dead, The New Yorker will actually cover "the Big Apple." If there still is a The New Yorker or New York. About THIRTEEN YEARS AGO, I walked into the place and asked to speak to someone, or to address my work to someone. I said there was an upcoming "Big Apple" dinner of the American Name Society, and people were still alive, and this was something they had to do. I was told that's not how they do things. There was no one I could speak to. .. Charles Gillett died ten years ago. It's a great story now. It's amazing that I'm still alive and doing parking tickets. ... I need to repair my relationship with Grant Barrett and pay him to get the 1937 "Big Apple" dance song (which I now have rights to) on the website this month. I sorry for what I said. (Talk about "third rail"!) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- MY COMPUTER ... I now get some pop-ups that I had previously blocked. I checked my SPAM folder today, and there was a rejected e-mail to this ADS-L listserv that I had never sent. The subject was "important screensaver." ... Maybe I should buy some firewall stuff and spyware stuff to clean everything out. I don't know. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TUNA MELT ... Google Answers was asked about the origin of the "tuna melt." It's interesting to see what GA came up with, without asking me or Ben Zimmer or Andy Smith. ... Google Answers incorrectly, I believe, places "tuna melt" in the very first JOY OF COOKING (the text changed many times). But hey, that's why they get paid. ... ... ... (GOOGLE ANSWERS) ... _Google Answers: restaurant menus_ (http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... I've since turned up a 1968 restaurant reference ... the mid-1960s there was a tuna melt sandwich on ... a drive-in restaurant called Pennington's, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. ... www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182 - 11k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:DEbLIiPhm1EJ:www.answers.google.com/answers/threa dview?id=454182+"tuna+melt"+1968+Oklahoma&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.answers.google.c om/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 240 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=9&did=513404422&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110577 6432&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 6, 1968. p. WS12 (1 page) : ... NORM'S PATTY MELT...79c Our Own Original Patty Melt, with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... TUNA MELT...79c Served with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... NORM'S SANTA MONICA--LINCOLN & COLORADO ... ... ... (LOS ANGELES PUBLIC LIBRARY MENU COLLECTION) ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg) ... "Melted Cheese Sandwich on Toast" The Brown Derby Coffee Shop September 1952 ... ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg) ... "PATTY MELT...95" Tropicana Coffee Shop Inglewood, CA 10/1968 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 15 19:14:55 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:14:55 -0800 Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" In-Reply-To: <9a.1dec57b0.2f1aba50@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2005, at 10:26 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ... > TUNA MELT > ... > Google Answers was asked about the origin of the "tuna melt." It's > interesting to see what GA came up with, without asking me or Ben > Zimmer or Andy Smith. > ... > Google Answers incorrectly, I believe, places "tuna melt" in the very > first > JOY OF COOKING (the text changed many times). But hey, that's why they > get > paid. i don't have a 1st edition (1931), but i do have the 1946 edition, which is (i think) the 6th edition. it certainly does not have anything *called* a "tuna melt" (or "patty melt", for that matter). it does have a recipe for Tuna Fish Sandwiches with Cheese (p. 30) -- "Broil them under a flame until the cheese is melted" -- that's in the ball park, though it isn't called a "tuna melt". as for "patty melt", this one's not in there at all, under any name. though rombauer is enthusiastic about Hamburger Patties (p. 316: "These are good--so good that one need not hesitate to serve them at any time") and offers a number of variations on the basic patty (which already includes bacon), none of these variations involve cheese. there is also no "cheeseburger". in any case, i'm guessing that "patty melt" and "tuna melt" originated as diner/luncheonette labels. that's the context where i first encountered them, though unfortunately i can't recall when, and the diners and luncheonettes of that period are all long gone. i do remember the restaurant at Whitner's Department Store in downtown Reading, Pa., where i often had lunch when i worked at the Reading Eagle (1958-61); i fondly recall their Philadelphia Pepperpot Soup, and *think* i sometimes ordered a tuna melt (under that name) there. in fact, i'm not sure if i've ever heard "patty melt" or "tuna melt" in a home cooking context. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 20:41:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:41:40 -0800 Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: Last week's New Yorker blithely noted that the "first expletive" in Bernard Kerik's autobiography, "Lost Son," "comes two words in." You're supposed to interpret this fact as a further dollop pf shame. But it's not true. The expletive does appear two words into Chapter One, but there are pages of prologue before that. A minor point, certainly, but further reflection on journalistic accuracy none the less. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Tuna Melt (1968); The New Yorker on "The Big Apple" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE NEW YORKER ON "THE BIG APPLE" ... Maybe in fifty years when most of us are dead, The New Yorker will actually cover "the Big Apple." If there still is a The New Yorker or New York. About THIRTEEN YEARS AGO, I walked into the place and asked to speak to someone, or to address my work to someone. I said there was an upcoming "Big Apple" dinner of the American Name Society, and people were still alive, and this was something they had to do. I was told that's not how they do things. There was no one I could speak to. .. Charles Gillett died ten years ago. It's a great story now. It's amazing that I'm still alive and doing parking tickets. ... I need to repair my relationship with Grant Barrett and pay him to get the 1937 "Big Apple" dance song (which I now have rights to) on the website this month. I sorry for what I said. (Talk about "third rail"!) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- MY COMPUTER ... I now get some pop-ups that I had previously blocked. I checked my SPAM folder today, and there was a rejected e-mail to this ADS-L listserv that I had never sent. The subject was "important screensaver." ... Maybe I should buy some firewall stuff and spyware stuff to clean everything out. I don't know. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TUNA MELT ... Google Answers was asked about the origin of the "tuna melt." It's interesting to see what GA came up with, without asking me or Ben Zimmer or Andy Smith. ... Google Answers incorrectly, I believe, places "tuna melt" in the very first JOY OF COOKING (the text changed many times). But hey, that's why they get paid. ... ... ... (GOOGLE ANSWERS) ... _Google Answers: restaurant menus_ (http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... I've since turned up a 1968 restaurant reference ... the mid-1960s there was a tuna melt sandwich on ... a drive-in restaurant called Pennington's, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. ... www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454182 - 11k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:DEbLIiPhm1EJ:www.answers.google.com/answers/threa dview?id=454182+"tuna+melt"+1968+Oklahoma&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.answers.google.c om/answers/threadview?id=454182) ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 240 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=9&did=513404422&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110577 6432&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 6, 1968. p. WS12 (1 page) : ... NORM'S PATTY MELT...79c Our Own Original Patty Melt, with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... TUNA MELT...79c Served with Cottage Cheese & Sliced Pineapple ... NORM'S SANTA MONICA--LINCOLN & COLORADO ... ... ... (LOS ANGELES PUBLIC LIBRARY MENU COLLECTION) ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/j/rb03516-02.jpg) ... "Melted Cheese Sandwich on Toast" The Brown Derby Coffee Shop September 1952 ... ... _http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg_ (http://dbase1.lapl.org/images/menus/fullsize/c/1477-inside1.jpg) ... "PATTY MELT...95" Tropicana Coffee Shop Inglewood, CA 10/1968 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 15 20:48:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:48:24 -0500 Subject: poor man's copyright (1988) Message-ID: Came across a website recently on "the poor man's copyright": http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poor-mans-copyright/ Most references are to the legally dubious practice of mailing oneself a work to be copyrighted and using the postmark as proof of the creation date (though the 1988 Usenet cite below simply refers to using a copyright notice without registering the work with a copyright office). The 1992 cite quoting Willie Dixon suggests that the term has long been in circulation among blues musicians and songwriters. ------- Newsgroups: news.sysadmin, misc.legal Subject: Re: No RTM trial? Message-ID: <2458 at aplcomm.jhuapl.edu> Date: 16 Nov 88 18:20:50 GMT I think Morris has to actually claim copyrights on this material in some manner, even if it is just having a listing notorized or prepending "the poor man's copyright" (a "copyright" comment at the top of the module). ------- Newsgroups: rec.games.frp Subject: Publishing Games and Copyrights. Message-ID: <2705 at naucse.cse.nau.edu> Date: 17 Oct 90 16:37:17 GMT If you plan on selling your work for royalties or a fee, to another company, then the poor man's copyright is acceptable. (That is sending a copy of your product to yourself registered mail.) Do not break the seal. The judge will do that if you ever must go to court. ------- The CVN (New Bedford, Mass.), Jun 21, 1991, p. 8 (Proquest) Let's say you then present a poor man's copyright of the song as proof. (This is a copy of the song mailed to yourself and never opened.) It won't hold up in court either, mainly because there are many ways to open and reseal a letter without showing any evidence of tampering. ------- Washington Post, Feb 2, 1992, p. G1 (Nexis) [Blues songwriter Willie] Dixon was for years master of what he called "the poor man's copyright" -- he sent lyrics and sheet music to himself as registered letters, proof that songs had been written at a particular time. ------- Associated Press, Aug 16, 1996 (Nexis) She said this fear of the business end of things perpetrates misleading information through the grapevine "where you come up with silly things like poor man's copyright" - when a writer believes that sending a script to himself proves the date the script was written because of the postmark. ------- St. Petersburg Times (Florida), Feb 6, 1999, p. 1 (Nexis) [Comic book illustrator Bruce] Miller also talked about what he called "the poor man's copyright." He told the audience that if they could not afford to register their work, they should get the work notarized and then mail it to themselves, leaving it unopened. The post office dates the envelopes, thus making a written record of when the work was complete. ------- Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, Mar 18, 2002, p. 1 (Proquest) At 18, seven years after he came up with the idea for Maggen, Vigliotti mailed the idea back to himself -- a "poor-man's copyright" -- just like he had done when he wrote songs. That way he would have an official conception date, using the postmark to show that "I started building it first," Vigliotti said. ------- Louisville Eccentric Observer, Nov 6, 2002, p. 25 (Proquest) At the post office he'd run into Theo, who had made a cassette of mixes of the songs they'd done and was mailing it back to himself. "Poor man's copyright," Theo told him. ------- Billboard, Mar 13, 2004, p. 9 (Proquest) Make sure all of your band's songs have copyright protection. Full federal registration with the U.S. Copyright Office is always advisable. Yes, you can do the "poor man's copyright" and mail yourself a CD of songs to prove the creation date. ------- Market Wire, Jul 14, 2004 (Nexis) Tom also addressed the fact that the LSA provides a legitimate alternative to the poor man's copyright. "Creative artists and individual inventors have been misled by numerous methods to get a 'poor man's copyright.'" ------- --Ben Zimmer From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jan 15 22:19:31 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:19:31 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050115204140.73455.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The discussion of "gorram" (an expletive invented by Joss Whedon for his SF series "Firefly") during the WOTY nominations caused me to notice another, similar term this weekend. On the new "Battlestar Galactica" series the characters use "frack" as an expletive, as in "Frack me!" While not as inventive as "gorram," "frack" is simpler and phonetically more abrasive. The term dates to the original 1978 series. Another term on the original series was "felgercarb," meaning, roughly, shit. "You certainly have a way of cutting through the felgercarb." Haven't heard that one on the new series yet. (And if you're an SF fan, I recommend the new Battlestar Galactica. It's really quite good--orders of magnitude better than the hokey, original '78 series. It's on the Sci-Fi Channel.) --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 15 22:44:46 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:44:46 -0600 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: I think the "yodelep" version is in "Full Metal Jacket". From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sat 1/15/2005 9:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Wish I could remember my source, Wilson - maybe it WAS "The Lieutenant," though I usually watched something else in that time slot - can't remember what, though. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 22:46:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:46:29 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: About twenty or so years ago, DC Comics inroduced the supervillain "Lobo," last survivor of an obliterated planet. He was the last survivor because he obliterated it himself - to be somebody special. At some early point in the saga, Lobo began muttering about "fragging this" and "fraghging that" and "stupid fraggers," "frag up." I've never heard anyone actually use these quasi-euphemistic expletives, but a Web search shows they're moving stealthily into American English. You read it here first. JL Dave Wilton wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Wilton Subject: Gorram and Frack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The discussion of "gorram" (an expletive invented by Joss Whedon for his SF series "Firefly") during the WOTY nominations caused me to notice another, similar term this weekend. On the new "Battlestar Galactica" series the characters use "frack" as an expletive, as in "Frack me!" While not as inventive as "gorram," "frack" is simpler and phonetically more abrasive. The term dates to the original 1978 series. Another term on the original series was "felgercarb," meaning, roughly, shit. "You certainly have a way of cutting through the felgercarb." Haven't heard that one on the new series yet. (And if you're an SF fan, I recommend the new Battlestar Galactica. It's really quite good--orders of magnitude better than the hokey, original '78 series. It's on the Sci-Fi Channel.) --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 15 22:51:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:51:44 -0800 Subject: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Message-ID: Possibly so, but my memory of it goes back at least to the mid sixties. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the "yodelep" version is in "Full Metal Jacket". From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sat 1/15/2005 9:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? Wish I could remember my source, Wilson - maybe it WAS "The Lieutenant," though I usually watched something else in that time slot - can't remember what, though. Jon Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 14, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Hip" in Football: Precursor to "Hut"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Naturally, I care. Presumably before standardization, the call could > be uttered as "Hup! Toop! Treep! Haw!" Or so I once saw it in a > fifties novel. > > "Your left! ...Left!...Your left, right, left!" could be > "Yodelep!...Lep!...Yodelep, rye lep!" > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 15 23:10:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:10:21 EST Subject: Nassi Goreng (1924) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes (Jan. 6th): OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and 1939... I've got more books to look at and NYU's longer hours on Tuesday will help. Meanwhile, there's this. EASTWARD by Louis Couperus translated by J. Menzies-Wilson and C. C. Crispin London:Hurst & Blackett, Ltd. 1924 Pg. 142: If a European wishes to remain healthy he needs the rice-table. And I am willing to bet that whoever says that it is a bad thing does not know how to eat it. For there are many Dutchmen who have been in India for years and who do not know how to eat rice-table. They pile upon their plates rice, vegetables, meat and sambals, one on top of the other, and mix it into a sort of olla prodida. The taste is good, just as the taste of nassi-goreng (baked rice) is good. But, mixed up like this, it is an indigestible and unaesthetic mess, most unattractive in appearance. Whoever eats rice in this manner will not keep healthy and will take a dislike to rice-table. At the same time he runs the risk that his clever cook, if he has one, will think, "Why should I take the trouble to prepare my boemboe (spices) if my toean mixes up all these fragrant delicacies on his plate?" ("Toean" or "tuan" is a "European" or "master." OED from 1779, from Malay--ed.) From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 16 00:15:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:15:21 -0600 Subject: "eat crow" Message-ID: I recently bought a stack of "Comments on Etymology" (thanks Jerry!), and the Oct 2003 issue presents some of Barry's work on "eat crow" (ADS-L 6/22/2003). This phrased has nagged at me since, until I remembered why: Thomas Harris, _Silence of the Lambs_, Ch. 35, about 3-1/2 pages in (bottom of p. 224 in the St. Martin's paperback edition). Lecter, speaking to Clarice: "Dumas tells us that the addition of a crow to boullion in the fall, when the crow has fattened on juniper berries, greatly improves the color and flavor of stock." This dish must agree with Harris; in an article, "An Ideal English Class Syllabus for 9th Graders" from the Spring '94 issue of the teen magazine, _Mouth2Mouth_, he says: "Alexandre Dumas' _Dictionary of Cuisine_ will give us history and good practical information. We will cook now and then. . . . Dumas has sound advice on when to flavor your beef stock by putting in a crow." The local libraries don't have a copy of the English translation of Alexandre Dumas' (pere) _Grand dictionnaire de cuisine_, nor can I find it online, but apparently he thought crow can be quite tasty. Probably doesn't have anything to do with the phrase "eat crow," though. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 16 01:05:18 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:05:18 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050115224629.49763.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >About twenty or so years ago, DC Comics inroduced the supervillain "Lobo," >last survivor of an obliterated planet. He was the last survivor because >he obliterated it himself - to be somebody special. > >At some early point in the saga, Lobo began muttering about "fragging >this" and "fraghging that" and "stupid fraggers," "frag up." I've never >heard anyone actually use these quasi-euphemistic expletives, but a Web >search shows they're moving stealthily into American English. > >You read it here first. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~ There is an earlier, more sinister, significance for "fragging," probably derived from *fragmentation grenade.* It meant taking advantage of a messy combat situation to dispose of an intolerable superior officer. "Friendly fire" so to speak. A. Murie From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 02:35:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:35:25 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: I foolishly took it for granite (n.b.) that all members of this forum were sufficiently advanced in age and learning to be conversant with the earlier sense of "to frag," undoubtedly the inspiration of the comic-book term. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Gorram and Frack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >About twenty or so years ago, DC Comics inroduced the supervillain "Lobo," >last survivor of an obliterated planet. He was the last survivor because >he obliterated it himself - to be somebody special. > >At some early point in the saga, Lobo began muttering about "fragging >this" and "fraghging that" and "stupid fraggers," "frag up." I've never >heard anyone actually use these quasi-euphemistic expletives, but a Web >search shows they're moving stealthily into American English. > >You read it here first. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~ There is an earlier, more sinister, significance for "fragging," probably derived from *fragmentation grenade.* It meant taking advantage of a messy combat situation to dispose of an intolerable superior officer. "Friendly fire" so to speak. A. Murie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 16 02:46:57 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:46:57 -0600 Subject: viggerish Message-ID: One of my hobbies is magic. John Scarne was a famous magician of the mid-20th century who also did a great deal to educate the public, particularly WWII GI's, about crooked gambling games. I found an article about him on ProQuest: Help for G.I. Suckers By John Desmond New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 10, 1943; pg. SM14 from the jump on p. 34: "Gamblers don't call it mathematics. They call it "viggerish," which probably is a slurring over of the familiar gambling-house phrase, "How do you figure it?" Scarne says. "Viggerish" is the hidden percentage which all gambling houses take against the player." I've always known vigorish, "the vig," as the exhorbitant interest charged by a loan shark. >From the letters, 3 weeks later: New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 31, 1943; pg. SM2 " "Viggerish" To The Editor: The article on gambling in THE TIMES magazine was an interesting expose of games of chance, but there is one question raised which I think I can explain better than John Scarne. I have heard the word "viggerish" used for the cut the house takes in dice games. But it seems highly improbable to me that the word is a corruption of "how you figure it" because it requires too much of an assumption to make the transition from one to the other. My theory is far simpler. If you take the word as a corrupt form of "vicarage" then consult the dictionary. You will find that it is a collection of tithes. Pfc. David Shulman New York." Many of you will recognize the author of the letter. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 16 03:37:52 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:37:52 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050116023525.51934.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I foolishly took it for granite (n.b.) that all members of this forum were >sufficiently advanced in age and learning to be conversant with the >earlier sense of "to frag," undoubtedly the inspiration of the comic-book >term. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course. You're probably right. Sorry about my tone. Sometimes I feel as if I'm older'n nearly everyone else & it leads me into pomposities & other foolishness. A. Murie From cejone01 at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU Sun Jan 16 04:35:56 2005 From: cejone01 at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU (Charles Jones) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:35:56 -0500 Subject: unsubscribe me please. Message-ID: please take me off this list. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 16 05:59:17 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:59:17 -0500 Subject: Eye-catching snack name Message-ID: At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other products from the same company, chips or whatever. Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's Booty". Probably a few bags should sell on the name alone. Will these be permitted in school lunches? Am I the last one to notice this product on the shelf? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 16 06:55:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 01:55:20 EST Subject: "Walking on eggshells" (1900, 1922) Message-ID: TSUNAMI--William Safire's column this Sunday is on "tsunami." He gives the Hearn quote as 1897 and not 1896. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- WALKING ON EGGSHELLS--41,600 Google hits, 7.030 Google Groups hits WALKING ON EGG SHELLS--5,970 Google hits, 978 Google Groups hits ... I saw some promos for the American version on the IRON CHEF television show. The promos said that you'll be "walking on eggshells." ... What's the deal with eggshells? I tried the STARS AND STRIPES in the American Memory database, but appear to have come up with bad hits for 1918 and 1919. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _FEW TO WITNESS THE CLIMAX; Final Convention Thrills Staged Before Only 800 Spectators. DETAILS OF COX LANDSLIDE Colorado's Switch Marked the Moment When the Ohioan's Victory Became Assured. TEXAS HEADED COX PARADE McAdoo's Stanchest Supporters Carried Lone Star Standard to Strains of "Ohio! Ohio!" Relatively Few Saw the Climax. Hopes of Late Stayers Revived. FEW TO WITNESS THE CLIMAX Ready for Forty-fourth Ballot. Fear of a Bryan Speech Dispelled. Taggart Plumps for Cox. Colorado's Switch Proves Decisive. Texas Leads the Cox Parade. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102866792&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105854115&clientId=65882) Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857. Jul 7, 1920. p. 1 (2 pages) ... (I couldn't find it easily here--ed.) ... _BRIAND AND GEORGE CONFER AT CANNES_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=519685022&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1105855773&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 5, 1922. p. 3 (1 page) ... "The situation is delicate," said Loucheur just before the informal session began. "We are walking on eggshells and we cannot continue in this way. We must come to some definite decisions on many questions." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Atlanta Constitution _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2nSRkRoZrWvdWBb611kQhR8jbtL4V7NJxQ==) Thursday, May 03, 1900 _Atlanta,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:atlanta+walking+on+egg+shells+AND) _Georgia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:georgia+walking+on+egg+shells+AND) ...gait of a man who IR WALKING ON EGG SHELLS From Mitchell the man turn.....of th3 bare- footed man He was not WALKING for nor was he going without.. ... Pg. 7, col. 2: The barefooted man started at the corner of Pryor and Mitchell streets. He placed one toe tentatively on the hot brick pavement in front of him, eased the full weight of one leg slowly down as one who tries cold water before taking a swim at this season of the year, and was soon off down the street with the mincing gait of a man who is walking on egg shells. ... .. ... (NYPL) Author _Simmons, Herbert._ (http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aSimmons,+Herbert./asimmons+herbert/-5,-1,0,B/browse) Title Man walking on eggshells. Imprint Boston, Houghton Mifflin [c1962] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 16 07:45:47 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:45:47 EST Subject: Scrunter Message-ID: SCRUNTER--3,840 Google hits, 102 Google Groups hits (Not in OED) ... ... On Saturday, I tried Mama Jean's. 536 Ninth Avenue (between 39th and 40th Streets), "The taste of Trinidad & Tobago with the soul of the Caribbean." The "Scrunters Special" ($7) was "stewed chicken served with peas and rice or white rice and salad." I was told "scrunter" is a poor person who scrambles for a living. I had the "roti," which was very good. ... Othe dishes include accra, shandon bene shrimp, doubles, buccoo belly-full, paramin pork, and pelau. ... ... _http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/story/268712p-230143c.html_ (http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/story/268712p-230143c.html) At age 80, Dominique St. Hillaire can still take the heat and has no desire to leave the kitchen. That's where she is every day (except Sunday) cooking lunch and dinner at Mama Jean's, a West Indian restaurant at 536 Ninth Ave. (between 39th and 40th Sts.). The menu at the snug spot includes island eats she grew up on in Trinidad, says co-owner Fedner La Chapelle, her son. Specialties include braised oxtails and Soca Sunday, a homey dish of stewed chicken served with macaroni pie, stewed peas and rice. Originally published on January 7, 2005 ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Gleaner _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2lHP7jjKKTg8Bq1tjw67nfJQGZhvGBj3c0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 25, 1982 _Kingston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:kingston+scrunter) _Kingston_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kingston+scrunter) ...virtually incident free. Calypsonian SCRUNTER, warming the hearts of.....off the 1982 calypso monarch crown. SCRUNTER dethroned last year's winner.. _Daily Gleaner _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2tngo9VDqiL2X2nYiD3zsyqiaZWG2PmcqkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, March 02, 1980 _Kingston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:kingston+scrunter) _Kingston_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kingston+scrunter) ...she misses the school bus. TRIBUTE SCRUNTER's other song. "Woman on the is.. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 16 07:52:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:52:23 -0500 Subject: Eye-catching snack name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2005, at 12:59 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Eye-catching snack name > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American > Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's > Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other > products > from the same company, chips or whatever. > > Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's > Booty". Probably a few bags should sell on the name alone. Will these > be > permitted in school lunches? Am I the last one to notice this product > on > the shelf? > > -- Doug Wilson > You could be. My wife has been buying that stuff for months. She thinks the names are cute. I think they take the meat. -Wilson Gray From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 16 14:31:07 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:31:07 -0500 Subject: Real Mackay/Real McCoy Message-ID: I appeal to the etymological wisdom of this list for input on the following question: In 2003 Sam Clements posted this: > From ancestry.com, I found a poem in the Waukesha(WI) Plaindealer, > February 7, 1871: page 1(I think), col. 3. There are five stanzas. > Rather than print the entire poem, suffice it to say that the final > line in each stanza was "For he's no the real Sandy Mackay." > > The title of the poem was "THE REAL SANDY MACKAY*" At the conclusion > of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: < used in some parts of Scotland, equivalent to saying, "it's not the > real thing.">> Sam's sensational discovery is actually the second earliest known occurrence of "real Mackay" or similar phrases, the earliest being an 1856 mention of "A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay" in a Scottish poem recorded by the Scottish National Dictionary. The SND states that in 1870 the Edinburgh distillers, G. Mackay & Co. adopted this as an advertising slogan, but no documentation of that has ever been found. I have tried hard to figure out who "Sandy Mackay" might refer to, and have come up with something that is probably a total red herring but that I find intriguing. Charles Kingsley's 1850 book, Alton Locke, Tailor and Poet, features a character named Sandy Mackaye, a bookseller modelled on Thomas Carlyle. I find nothing in the book relating to "the real Sandy Mackaye," but I wonder, is it plausible that this book, a fairly important one in its time, could have been behind the reference in Sam's 1871 poem? The timing is possible, although "used in some parts of Scotland" suggests more of an older folk origin and my theory would require the term migrating in six years from a literary reference to an alcoholic one. A final point to ponder, probably of no significance except a remarkable coincidence, is that Jonathon Green's 1901 citation for the form "real McCoy," the earliest ever discovered for that form, is from The Boy's Own Paper, described by Jonathon as embodying the philosophy of "muscular Christianity." The father of the "muscular Christianity" movement was Charles Kingsley. Does anyone find any plausibility in the Alton Locke connection? Was Thomas Carlyle the real Mackay? Fred Shapiro From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 16:24:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:24:29 -0800 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: That's OK, Alison. I should have learned long ago "never to assume." JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Gorram and Frack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I foolishly took it for granite (n.b.) that all members of this forum were >sufficiently advanced in age and learning to be conversant with the >earlier sense of "to frag," undoubtedly the inspiration of the comic-book >term. > >JL ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course. You're probably right. Sorry about my tone. Sometimes I feel as if I'm older'n nearly everyone else & it leads me into pomposities & other foolishness. A. Murie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 17:25:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:25:58 -0800 Subject: Tree-huggers Message-ID: Who'd have thunk that the conservative epithet "tree-hugger," applied to a person who supports an environmentalist agenda, may have been inspired by an actual stress-reductive practice? According to Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams, "Hugging trees has a calming effect on me....I'm talking about enormous trees that will be there when we are all dead and gone. I've hugged trees in every part of this little island....[A]ll I know is that it works." In an interview with Radio Eireann's "RTE Guide" (as reported in the Daily Telegraph of July 5, 2001), Adams revealed that he has hugged trees in Tony Blair's garden, as well as at the White House when he met with President Clinton. A later term, "panda-hugger" (a Westerner or other non-Chinese who favors generous policies toward the People's Republic of China), also exists. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From ddr11 at UVIC.CA Sun Jan 16 18:13:39 2005 From: ddr11 at UVIC.CA (Dave Robertson) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:13:39 -0800 Subject: Eye-catching snack name Message-ID: Reminds me of the health-food store snack named "Nookie", made by the Frookie company if memory serves. --Dave R ----- Original Message ----- >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Eye-catching snack name >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American >> Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's >> Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other >> products >> from the same company, chips or whatever. >> >> Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's >> Booty". From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 16 18:47:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:47:27 -0600 Subject: Tree-huggers Message-ID: I don't know how much stock I'd put in Adams' stress reduction techniques. While held in Long Kesh in the 1970's, he decided the proper way to decorate his cell was to smear his own excrement on the walls. Sort of a stress enhancing move, I'd say. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sun 1/16/2005 11:25 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Tree-huggers According to Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams, "Hugging trees has a calming effect on me....I'm talking about enormous trees that will be there when we are all dead and gone. I've hugged trees in every part of this little island....[A]ll I know is that it works." In an interview with Radio Eireann's "RTE Guide" (as reported in the Daily Telegraph of July 5, 2001), Adams revealed that he has hugged trees in Tony Blair's garden, as well as at the White House when he met with President Clinton. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 16 22:09:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:09:48 -0500 Subject: Word of the Week: blogola Message-ID: There's a new "blog" blend to join "blogorrhea", "blognoscenti", etc. "Blogola" (BLOG + payOLA) has been circulating on the blogosphere this past week due to a mini-scandal (blown out of proportion by a Jan. 14 _Wall St. Journal_ article) about bloggers receiving payments from Howard Dean's presidential campaign. A good source for blog citations is , which gives chronologically ordered search results (unlike, say, Google): http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?rank=&url=blogola -------- Posted by: jbm (October 26, 2004 10:58 AM) http://www.snappytheclam.com/archives/000657.html Doesn't this imply that this wasn't paid for, but a freebie? If so, why aren't we getting disclaimers for what otherwise amounts to shilling for free schwag - blogola? -------- Posted by: Ann Althouse (December 20, 2004 1:27 PM) http://althouse.blogspot.com/2004/12/bloggers-promoting-products.html An emailer writes that there should be a spiffy little word for blogger payola, like "blogola." Maybe we could also do with a word for blog product placement, like maybe "product blogment." -------- Posted by: Ronald Coleman (January 13, 2005 8:56 PM) http://instapundit.com/archives/020436.php The only real difference I can see is that one form of blogola is liquidated, but the other sources of bias can be and of course are in some cases far stronger. -------- Posted by: Major John (January 13, 2005 10:05 PM) http://instapundit.com/archives/020436.php If you really care if someone is getting blogola, you'll make your choice of whom you read based on their disclosure (or lack thereof) and/or who is paying/hiring them. -------- Posted by: Impacted Wisdom Truth (January 14, 2005 6:25 AM) http://impactedwisdomtruth.blogspot.com/2005/01/blogola.html Perhaps we should call paying off bloggers to shill for politicians, "Blogola" in tribute to "payola." -------- Posted by: Jeff Jarvis (January 15, 2005) http://www.buzzmachine.com/archives/2005_01_15.html Give credit to the coining of blogola to an Ann Althouse reader. -------- Posted by: Ann Althouse (January 16, 2005 7:17 AM) http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/01/blogola.html Is it fair for me to get traffic from links to posts of mine where I note a term coined by someone who emailed me? Thanks to Jeff Jarvis for linking to this December 20th post of mine, where I offer the word "blogola" for money secretly paid to bloggers for positive postings. My emailer originally suggested "payblogga" as the word, then added: That's a horrible name for it, no flow at all. "Blogola" sounds better, but it loses the derivation of the term. It could just be left as "payola", but today's buzzword/catchphrase world would desperately want to have "blog" in there somewhere. I preferred "blogola," because it does flow better. There are other examples of coinages that misuse the root term. Consider the way the "-oholic" ending of "alcoholic" is used in words like "workaholic" and "chocoholic." Really, only the "-ic" should be needed, as that's all that's been added to "alcohol" to produce "alcoholic." The problem is that "-ic" won't be recognized for what it's supposed to be unless more of "alcoholic" is brought along. It just doesn't work to say "workic" and "chocolatic." The "Watergate" ending "-gate" is a similar example. Nothing about "-gate" meant scandal in the original word, but it's a distinctive ending, and we know what it means. I think "-ola" is like that. The loss of "pay-" might seem wrong, because that was where the original meaning was, but I think we need a suffix, not a prefix, and somehow "-ola" has come to signify the corruptness of under-the-table payments. -------- --Ben Zimmer From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jan 16 23:17:16 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:17:16 -0500 Subject: another early 'boxing/real McCoy" cite-1902 Message-ID: Inspired by Fred Shapiro's message about the Real MacKay today, I searched again for "real McCoy" in Newspaperarchive. 28 Feb. 1902 _Daily Nevada State Journal_ 1/5 (Headline) The Real McCoy <> I've tried to find out more about a fighter named "Daniel McCoy" but am stumped so far. I though perhaps they didn't know that "Kid McCoy's" first name was 'Charles' but, in searching Newspaperarchive for Kid McCoy's travel schedule at the time, it would appear that this "Daniel McCoy" is someone else. The headline would indicate that the term "Real McCoy" was known in the US at the time, and most interesting that it was used about a boxer. But not our Charles Selby=Kid McCoy, evidently. It might be worth searching further to see if it was INDEED "Kid McCoy." If anyone can identify in more detail the boxer Daniel McCoy, that would be helpful. Sam Clements From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 16 23:50:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:50:16 -0800 Subject: Eye-catching snack name Message-ID: There are two "Nookie's" restaurants in Chicago. The first opened in 1978. JL Dave Robertson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Robertson Subject: Re: Eye-catching snack name ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reminds me of the health-food store snack named "Nookie", made by the Frookie company if memory serves. --Dave R ----- Original Message ----- >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Eye-catching snack name >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American >> Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's >> Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other >> products >> from the same company, chips or whatever. >> >> Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's >> Booty". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 00:29:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:29:08 -0500 Subject: Walking on eggshells (1860) Message-ID: More eggshells. I guess it's not American. (LITERATURE ONLINE) Collins, Wilkie, 1824-1889 [Author Page] The Woman in White (1860) 1515Kb The Woman in White. By Wilkie Collins ... In Three Volumes. New Edition [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): VOL. II. [Durable URL for this text] THE STORY CONTINUED BY MARIAN HALCOMBE. [Durable URL for this text] IX. [Durable URL for this text] ...me a hundred times---I walk, in your English phrase, upon egg-shells! And this grand creature---I drink her health in my sugar... From PZebe at CS.COM Mon Jan 17 01:24:53 2005 From: PZebe at CS.COM (Paul Zebe) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:24:53 EST Subject: "Corn" as expletive? Message-ID: Does anyone have any knowledge about the use of "Corn" as an expletive? I just heard a report of it being used that way in Alabama in the 1950s or 60s. Curiously, Paul Zebe From PZebe at CS.COM Mon Jan 17 01:49:00 2005 From: PZebe at CS.COM (Paul Zebe) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:49:00 EST Subject: "Fit to a T"? Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about the origins of "Fit to a T"? Curiously, Paul Zebe From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 01:52:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:52:12 -0500 Subject: "Third Rail" and Kirk O'Donnell Message-ID: Fred Shapiro might want to follow this up for his quotations dictionary. A simple e-mail to Boston College's John J. Burns Library might do it. TIP O'NEILL AND THE DEMOCRATIC CENTURY by John Aloysius Farrell Boston: Little, Brown and Company 2001 Pg. 581: "The Republicans will never trust the Democrats again on Social Security. It was made clear to them, indelibly and lastingly, that this is the third rail and if you touch it you get burned. It will never be anything other now, because nobody will ever trust each other again, and that was almost totally Tip's doing," said Lud Ashley.(8) Pg. 693 ABBREVIATIONS USED IN THE NOTES ONBC--Thomas P. O'Neill Jr. papers, Boston College RRL--Ronald Reagan Library Pg. 738 (Notes): 8. Newt Gingrich, O'Donnell, Ashley interviews; O'Donnell "Memorandum: Political Agenda for House Democrats," Aug. 4, 1981, ONBC; Richard Wirthlin to Richard Richards, July 29, 31, 1981, RRL; Pepper to O'Neill, July 14, 1981, ONBC. http://www.bc.edu/libraries/centers/burns/resources/collections/congressional/#oneill O'Neill, Thomas P. Title: Thomas P. O'Neill Papers, 1936-1994 (bulk 1953-1986). Description: 428.25 linear ft. Arrangement: Organized into seven series: Personal/Office Files; Staff Files; Legislative Files; Grants/Projects/Subject Files; Party Leadership/Administrative Files; Press Relations; and Audiovisual Materials. Finding aids: Finding aid available. Summary: Composed of correspondence, publications, photographs, audio tapes, videocassettes, artifacts, newspaper clippings, and scrapbooks. Most of the material relates to O'Neill's career in Congress, and documents his views on such issues as the Vietnam War, Watergate, and relations with Ireland. Also includes papers of O'Neill's staff, files of Democratic Committees, and some letters of late twentieth century presidents. Biog/Hist Note: Congressman from Massachusetts. O'Neill was born in North Cambridge, Massachusetts in 1912, and attended Boston College. From 1936 to 1952 he served in the State Legislature, and from 1953 to 1986 he was a member of the United States House of Representatives. O'Neill served as Speaker of the House from 1977 to 1986. A loyal Democrat and proud Irish-American, he actively supported human rights issues. He died in 1994. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 17 01:55:37 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:55:37 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: Oh, for Pete's sake! This thread has been going for several days now, and only now do I remember that I was on a panel at Worldcon last fall(World Science Fiction Convention; http://www.noreascon.org/index.html) on this very topic, invented expletives in sf. Unfortunately I was very tired at the time -- why? -- and I barely remember anything of that panel. -- Aha; after looking up the program on the web, here's the reason: >>>>> Sunday 11:00 p Exeter: Open Filk [from which I probably got to bed about 3:00 AM or later.] [...] Monday 10:00 a H311: Curses! Profanity for fantasy and SF -- what makes made-up profanity either work or fail? Panelists can bring in examples of both and share their own techniques for creating profanity that has the same emotional weight that real profanity does. Hilari L. Bell (m), Susan Casper, Larry Ganem, Mark Mandel, Vera Nazarian, Shara R. Zoll <<<<< However, a few thoughts off the top of my head: smeg, from the very funny sf TV show Red Dwarf. Evidently from "smegma". Used as various parts of speech. tanj, From Ringworld and other works in the same future history series, by Larry Niven. Explicitly an acronym for "there ain't no justice". His substitute for "damn": - "Tanj!" - "Tanjit!" (I think) - "... that tanj computer..." godsrotted, from C.J. Cherryh's Chanur series. One of my own favorites. Also gods-be-feathered, rag-eared, motherless. These last three refer to, respectively, an obscure theological controversy, a person's alleged inability to defend herself or himself (the point of view characters are cat-people), and lack of position in a matrilineal society. Cherryh puts a lot of work and knowledge into her linguistic inventions, more than almost any other sf author I can think of (main exceptions: Janet Kagan, Suzette Haden Elgin, and of course, though not sf, Tolkien; well, I have a list, but that's another topic). -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From PZebe at CS.COM Mon Jan 17 01:55:38 2005 From: PZebe at CS.COM (Paul Zebe) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:55:38 EST Subject: "Target" as a French word? Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her Southern students? Curiously, Paul Zebe From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Jan 17 02:10:47 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:10:47 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com> Message-ID: >Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? >That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the >past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her >Southern students? All I can tell you is that I have used - and heard - that pronunciation in the Knoxville area for many years = since the early 1980s, probably. It is used jokingly but with such frequency that the joking aspect is not always front and center. Bethany From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 02:17:25 2005 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:17:25 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Target"=20as=20a=20Frenc?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=20word=3F?= Message-ID: I wager if you do a Google or Nexis search on Target, the store, you will find many articles about this. I have read several in the New York Times alone in the past few years. Apparently, the word is jokingly pronounced "tar-zhay" by upper middle class shoppers who go there for some of the store's more upscale or chic goods. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Mon Jan 17 02:43:48 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:43:48 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE=3A_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=22Target=22_as_a_French_w?= =?utf-8?Q?ord=3F?= Message-ID: We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle of the verb 'marcher'. Anyway, KMart was known as K-Marche', and Target was 'La target.' I've never heard anyone say 'Wal-marche'' but I bet if I did it, no one around here would bat an eyelash. For us, there was no 'upscale' or 'chic' feel to saying 'la target' a la francaise, it was just funny, and a little bit derisive. We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: Jack in the Box = jack in the crack Pizza Time = pizza crime Pizza Answer = pizza cancer Pizza Hut = pizza slut Taco Bell = toxic hell I can attest to hearing all of those, but I'm not sure I've ever heard "burger thing " for Burger King. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Steve Boatti Sent: Sun 1/16/2005 18:17 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Steve Boatti Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Target"=20as=20a=20Frenc? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=20word=3F?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wager if you do a Google or Nexis search on Target, the store, you will find many articles about this. I have read several in the New York Times alone in the past few years. Apparently, the word is jokingly pronounced "tar-zhay" by upper middle class shoppers who go there for some of the store's more upscale or chic goods. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 02:58:45 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:58:45 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Target"=20as=20a=20Frenc?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=20word=3F?= Message-ID: We were saying "Crow-zhay" for "Kroger" in the 1970s here in Durham, North Carolina. When TARGET came along, it was natural to use the same Frenchified pronunciation for it, too. In the beginning I heard this only among gay men; as others have indicated, the purpose was sardonic: 'If we queers are shopping in the store, it MUST be a cut above others--or so we like to assume'. In a message dated 1/16/05 8:55:59 PM, PZebe at CS.COM writes: > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the > past 10 years.? Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her > Southern students? > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Jan 17 03:07:42 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:42 -0600 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <200501170155.j0H1tdqi019911@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel lists several more examples of invented expletives in SF. I would add: from Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_ (1951), "frab" (as in "frab joint") and "slok" (as in "pile of slok"); and from the TV series "Farscape", a number of epithets including "frell" (n. and v.: "what the frell", "this is a frelling mess"), "dren" (again, "pile of..."), and "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). (I'm sure there are more from that series that I'm forgetting.) Jim Parish From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Jan 17 03:07:42 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:42 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <200501170155.j0H1tgct019926@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Paul Zebe asked: > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her > Southern students? One of my sisters, who lives in Orange County CA, uses that pronunciation sardonically. I know of no connection between her and Tennessee, although I could ask. Jim Parish From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Jan 17 03:11:42 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:11:42 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_=22Target=22_as_a_French_word=3F?= Message-ID: How far back does "Jacques C. Penne" for J.C. Penney's go? Sorry if I don't have the spelling correct. Sam Clements From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 03:49:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:49:21 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack (Farscape slang) Message-ID: There is an online FARSCAPE encyclopedia: http://www.farscape-1.com/index.php?title=Slang The Farscape Encyclopedia - Slang ... the draz out if here!" -Chiana drannit: adjective -Sebacean slang for a ... PK Tech Girl" frell: noun, verb, interjection -The most well-known Farscape word, used ... www.farscape-1.com/index.php?title=Slang - 66k - Cached - Similar pages From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jan 17 03:53:50 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:53:50 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=A0_=A0_=A0_=22Target=22_as_a_French_word=3F?= In-Reply-To: <008701c4fc42$450e6970$df631941@sam> Message-ID: > How far back does "Jacques C. Penne" for J.C. Penney's go? > > Sorry if I don't have the spelling correct. > > Sam Clements > > There's also "Roi Rozher" for Roy Rogers. (Also, sorry for the spelling. I've only heard it pronounced.) Affecting a faux-European name for working-class establishments is a pretty standard joke. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 17 04:26:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:26:35 -0500 Subject: "Corn" as expletive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A clipped derivative of "cornsarn it," perhaps? Stabbing in the dark, -Wilson Gray On Jan 16, 2005, at 8:24 PM, Paul Zebe wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Zebe > Subject: "Corn" as expletive? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Does anyone have any knowledge about the use of "Corn" as an > expletive? I > just heard a report of it being used that way in Alabama in the 1950s > or 60s. > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 17 04:46:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:46:36 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard "Target" pronounced as "Tar ZHAY" for the past couple of years or so. Like Red Lobster, Target has ads on local TV, though neither chain has a local outlet in this area. I assume that the Frenchified pronunciation is just a joke, like referring to a neighborhood beer bar as the "El God-Damn," thereby adding a touch of ironic pseudo-class. -Wilson Gray On Jan 16, 2005, at 8:55 PM, Paul Zebe wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Zebe > Subject: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French > word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area > within the > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm > by her > Southern students? > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > From jlk at 3GECKOS.NET Mon Jan 17 05:01:58 2005 From: jlk at 3GECKOS.NET (James Knight) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:01:58 -0800 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com> Message-ID: Yes. Jacque C Penn? got a similar treatment in the early 80s by my sister-in-law, early 80s, fashion majorj, Ariz State U. -jk At 05:55 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word? >That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the >past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her >Southern students? > >Curiously, >Paul Zebe From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 07:02:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:02:54 EST Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: TAR-GAY--130 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits TAR-ZHAY--1,140 Google hits, 106 Google Groups hits TAR-JAY--1,890 Google hits, 410 Google Groups hits ... This is an old topic. At alt.folklore urban on October 20, 2004, some people named Alice Faber and Ben Zimmer addressed this: ... ... Alice Faber wrote: > I wonder if this is based on the mock-French pronunciation "tar-zhay" > that some people use. Then the nefarious Jacques Penn? should be the next target. Ben "and then it's Krog?r's turn" Zimmer ... ... The HDAS has covered retail nicknames such as this. However, neither "Jacques C." nor "Jean-Claude" Pen-NAY is there....One hopes for "Wal-fart" and "Taco-Hell" entries...Under "Needless Markup," there are 1995 and 1996 entries collected by "J. Sheidlower." That nickname is from at least 1991. (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Clothing Store Peeves + Misc. Bitching_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.peeves/browse_frm/thread/cb677c7b1d453612/c76dd0e42518600e?q="tar+zhay"&_d one=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=tar+zhay&as_oq=&as_e q=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_min m=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2001&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+t o+Search&&d#c76dd0e42518600e) ... When it comes to discount chains, I patronize that upscale French store, Target (pronounced "tar-ZHAY.") Buy your clothing from the flea market, like I do. ... _alt.peeves_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.peeves) - Aug 20 1991, 12:52 pm by Geoff Miller - 17 messages - 11 authors ... ... _Standard English_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bit.listserv.mbu-l/browse_frm/thread/2ca5579472b7d577/0970216717f0316b?q="tar+jay"&_done=/groups?q=" tar+jay"&start=200&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&num=100&as_drrb=b&as_ mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2001&&_doneTitle=Ba ck+to+Search&&d#0970216717f0316b) ... PRINT, --GET IT-- But the words are, you know, like the KIND OF YAP YOU HERE AT FACULTY MEETINGS, ****NOT!!!!* Imean like gossip by the undies at TAR-JAY. ... _bit.listserv.mbu-l_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bit.listserv.mbu-l) - Dec 7 1992, 3:38 pm by mer - 34 messages - 18 authors ... ... _Boycott "Toy Story" ??_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.urban/browse_frm/thread/79978203db03df2f/799d01dd644265bb?q="wal+fart"&_done=/gro ups?q="wal+fart"&start=100&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drr b=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_m axm=1&as_maxy=2001&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#799d01dd644265bb) "Oh gee, we're pretty stupid and lame-ass" Wal-Fart responded when they put the shirts back up after massive, nationwide protest. False. ... _alt.disney.secrets_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.urban) - Jan 22 1996, 2:20 pm by Michael Heinz - 33 messages - 26 authors ... ... _BEWARE NEIMAN-MARCUS CAFE: $250-00 RECIPE FOR COOKIES!_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.restaurants/browse_frm/thread/e1c1247862b37b48/e2af6 541b43b9011?q="needless+markups"&_done=/groups?q="needless+markups"&start=0&sc oring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&num=100&as_drrb =b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1999&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#e2af6 541b43b9011) ... soda 4 eggs 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 tsp. vanilla 1-8 oz. Hershey bar, grated They'd use *Hershey* at Needless-Markups? Now you KNOW this is a crock. ... _rec.food.restaurants_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.restaurants) - Dec 22 1991, 12:42 pm by Roger Lustig - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... _Capitalism means stratification_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.anarchy/browse_frm/thread/f300d0e4818f3f97/f477e8be18a9ee8f?q="needless+m arkup"&_done=/groups?q="needless+markup"&start=100&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&ie= UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=16&as_max m=1&as_maxy=2000&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f477e8be18a9ee8f) ... is used very frequently in the sweat shops of San Francisco's Chinatown, where clothes are sewn for the fashion plates who shop at Needless Markup stores. ... _alt.society.anarchy_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.anarchy) - Nov 8 1993, 4:14 am by Lizard - 21 messages - 5 authors ... ... ...... ... Neil Koomen Sep 6 1997, 12:00 am Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living From: Neil Koomen _neilkoo... at NOSPAMearthlink.net_ (mailto:neilkoo... at NOSPAMearthlink.net) Date: 1997/09/06 Subject: Re: pottery barn-target connection? > And my friends and I have called Target "tar-ZHAY" for a while (no, I'm not > a teenager) -- > we also occasionally shop "Jacques Pen-NAY" Here, it's "Jean-Claude Pen-NAY!" ... ... RWeidwall Sep 6 1997, 12:00 am Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living From: rweidw... at aol.com (RWeidwall) Date: 1997/09/06 Subject: Re: pottery barn-target connection? In article <34103CF3.7... at NOSPAMearthlink.net>, Neil Koomen writes: >Note: I've read that teenage girls call Target "tar-ZHAY," giving it >sort of a humorous pseudo-French pronunciation. I've heard Marshalls, the off-price store, referred to as "La Mar-SHALS." R. Wallace ... Kevin Schnitzius Sep 23 1992, 2:33 pm Newsgroups: talk.bizarre From: kschn... at encore.com (Kevin Schnitzius) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 21:09:30 GMT Local: Wed, Sep 23 1992 2:09 pm Subject: Re: supermarkets schni... at cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) writes: >i... at kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana) writes: >>(Of course, I usually say "King Stoopids," just as the Martin Acres >>subdivision has mutated into Martian Acres, and the K-Mart clone Target is >>often pronounced Tar-zhay.) > Taco Bell becomes Taco Hell > Albertson's becomes Albertscums > Niemann-Marcus becomes Needless Markup > Magic Market becomes Tragic Markup > The Foot Locker becomes The Foot Licker Publix becomes Pube Licks -- mr asynchronous kschnitz... at encore.com _Reply_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.bizarre/post?inreplyto=78f59f78990a56e4) ... ... D. Glenn Arthur Jr. Sep 24 1992, 9:35 am Newsgroups: talk.bizarre From: g... at moeng2.morgan.edu (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) Date: 24 Sep 1992 16:58:55 -0500 Local: Thurs, Sep 24 1992 2:58 pm Subject: Re: supermarkets In article schni... at cs.ucf.edu writes: >i... at kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana) writes: >>[...] "King Stoopids," [...] Martian Acres, [...] Tar-zhay. > Taco Hell [...] Albertscums [...] Needless Markup [...] Tragic Markup > [...] The Foot Licker ... and there's Radio Snack, Burger Thing, Hardly's, Boob's Big Boy, the Honda Accodion, Toyauto, Volkswagon Bunny, MacDeath, Densley's, Macintoy, Amoeba, MS-LOSS, and so on. Of course, I keep thinking that all those are _normal_ things to say until someone reacts to them. So far the biggest reaction-getter is "Gnu Hampster Avenue" for New Hampshire Ave. -- D. Glenn Arthur Jr., The Human Vibrator, g... at bessel.umd.edu "Being a _man_ means knowing that one has a choice not to act like a 'man'." How much interest is there in a TV/TS newsgroup? How many would post there? You can send me mail anonymously at _anonymus+... at godiva.nectar.cs.cm_ (mailto:anonymus+... at godiva.nectar.cs.cm) From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Mon Jan 17 07:37:57 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:37:57 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: Was my previous message just a bunch of code? Sorry, I'll try again.--jpv ------ We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle of the verb 'marcher'. Anyway, KMart was known as K-Marche', and Target was 'La target.' I've never heard anyone say 'Wal-marche'' but I bet if I did it, no one around here would bat an eyelash. For us, there was no 'upscale' or 'chic' feel to saying 'la target' a la francaise, it was just funny, and a little bit derisive. We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: Jack in the Box = jack in the crack Pizza Time = pizza crime Pizza Answer = pizza cancer Pizza Hut = pizza slut Taco Bell = toxic hell I can attest to hearing all of those, but I'm not sure I've ever heard "burger thing " for Burger King From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 09:21:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:21:11 EST Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) Message-ID: TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART Over at Wilton "Word Origins" (_http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1_ (http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1) ), someone asked about this. Is it old? Is it Swedish? ... It appears to be modern mock German. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO:; POPPIES FOR SOLDIERS _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=500480052&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& VName=HNP&TS=1105949754&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 22, 1952. p. 16 (1 page) : Vy iss it dot we are too soon oldt und too late schmardt? Bill of Zurich Heights ... ... _have you heard?; Reading _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=498560862&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105949 447&clientId=65882) ELIZABETH RANNELLS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 14, 1952. p. F2 (1 page) : _So Right_ Sign in bar: Ve get too soon old und too late schmart. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Independent Record _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=qfOSkbCfQu2KID/6NLMW2rFG07Of0fw50DtPMpH1n0HHiBf35r4+zA==) Thursday, July 17, 1952 _Helena,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:helena+too+late+schmart+AND) _Montana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:montana+too+late+schmart+AND) ...damd dey TOO soon gel oldt and TOO LATE SCHMART. Dey no stopt bark so much..... _Bedford Gazette _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Rvj45z7SpqiKID/6NLMW2l4qRlnRyCdXos9q5Hm/cYOd5XSGz6G6XQ==) Tuesday, September 16, 1952 _Bedford,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bedford+too+soon+oldt+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+too+soon+oldt+AND) ...on the side of his desk which Get TOO SOON OLDT Undt TOO Late Olniously. the.....is elected he is likely to looJc to TOO. for at least advice on the Interior.. ... _Vidette Messenger _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2lqHByk0SOnh2mQjJmV3J2+AyUg438K2n0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, October 28, 1952 _Valparaiso,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:valparaiso+too+soon+oldt+AND) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+too+soon+oldt+AND) ...said in regard to our Gedt TOO SOON OLDT Und TOO late TAX IS BAROMETER.....higher education at j Valparaiso was TOO demanding and this weary exhausted.. ... _Lemars Globe Post _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2j8w7oqfMOLPdboUuO68vluUNB3I6gXroA==) Thursday, October 22, 1953 _Le Mars,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:le_mars+too+soon+oldt+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+too+soon+oldt+AND) ...as the Old Dutchman said: "Ve get TOO SOON OLDT. und TOO late schmardt." FOR.. ... _Joplin Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2us9CmA0QzheSxaN9J6Srqid5XSGz6G6XQ==) Sunday, April 11, 1954 _Joplin,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:joplin+too+soon+old+AND) _Missouri_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:missouri+too+soon+old+AND) ...with the OLD German TOO SOON OLD TOO late through March more Fords were.....way patrol safety division said it was TOO early to definitely credit the.. ... _Mountain Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2s9Nds2WYffd55p0rxJSumSd5XSGz6G6XQ==) Thursday, July 15, 1954 _Placerville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:placerville+too+soon+old+AND) _California_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+too+soon+old+AND) ...999 Insurance. Phone 135-J-l GET TOO SOON OLD and TOO LATE SCHMARTf' Buy your.....The total prce is only ---------o It's TOO hot todcjy to write a have oil types.. ... _Mansfield News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2iuIzOhaxBk9wNvuDXiLglz87fxoN0o0p0IF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, August 07, 1954 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+too+late+schmart+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+too+late+schmart+AND) ...and Public Sale TOO Soon Oldt Und TOO LATE SCHMART if vou lm.pre.st.cd in a ta.. ... _Mansfield News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2iuIzOhaxBk947fws1mWRqmXpoDC2uAKs0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, August 06, 1954 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+too+late+schmart+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+too+late+schmart+AND) ...VeGet TOO Soon Oldt Und TOO LATE SCHMART But if you are interested.....level lot. A truly good buv at si 6. TOO. CALL LEONARD 8127-9 A. B. Reese, 42.. ... _Great Bend Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2nGh3t6QIOeDi5tlgjaSsRzHA3kqa20dxkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, October 10, 1954 _Great Bend,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:great_bend+too+late+smart+AND) _Kansas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kansas+too+late+smart+AND) ...said, 'We are TOO soon oldt und TOO LATE SMART." A Pirate teammate, asked.....a hole. Once in the open he was TOO fast to be run down. Hutch Salt.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- OT. MISC. THE ORIGIN OF CHESS-- ... I spent the day Sunday at the Asia Society. I was impressed by the Asia food glossary on its web site, and I checked out the bookstore. This was the last day of its exhibit, "Asia Games: The Art of Contest." ... The docent told us that chess comes from India. The companion book, pg. 137: "A majority of chess historians agree that the game originated in northern India (as _chaturanga_, in Sanskrit) sometime before 600, spread to Iran (Persian _chatrang_) and thence to Mesopotamia (Arabic _shatranj_), and reached Europe about the year 1000." ... The book and exhibit have been sponsored by the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. My scholarship is sponsored by...parking tickets. ... Actually, the majority of scholars agree that chess comes from CHINA. The India theory was set into stone by H. J. R. Murray, brother of the OED's Murray. But that was 100 years ago! ... The exhibit noted that no early chess pieces have been found in India. D'OH! ... How is scholarship--government-paid scholarship--so freaking awful? Do theses people take clues from the government-paid scholars at the Chicago Public Library? ... ... ... THE ORIGIN OF LANGUAGE-- ... _http://phrontistery.info/index.html_ (http://phrontistery.info/index.html) ... The Word Origins site also mentions the above site, called "THE PHRONTISTERY: ENGLISH WORD LISTS & LANGUAGE RESOURCES." ... Most of the site is just a ridiculous jumble of words, presenting without dates, context, or etymology. ... The site's author had a 2003 doctoral dissertation at McGill titled THE COMPARATIVE HISTORY OF NUMERICAL NOTATION. (He's turning that into a book.) An extensive Numerical Notation Bibliography follows. He cites several books and papers by Denise Schmandt-Besserat. (On September 10, 2001, I got an Iranian visa to visit ancient Persia on one of her tours, only to cancel that on September 11th.) ... In 1988, I moved to New York City and took over my sister's co-op. And I got a parking ticket and was found guilty for a sign that wasn't there. And I picked up this book by John F. Michell, THE DIMENSIONS OF PARADISE: THE PROPORTIONS AND SYMBOLIC NUMBERS OF ANCIENT COSMOLOGY (London: Thames and Hudson, 1988). In this web guy's extensive bibliography, he never cites this very influential and readable Michell book. And I watched this PBS show with Bill Moyers, and it was an interview with Joseph Campbell, and he said to "follow your bliss." ... And the first thing I realized was that the Greek number-name of the sun, _helios_, was a representation of Pi. And I turned to THE BOOK OF PI, and this information wasn't there. And then I solved the naming of the Parthenon and Saul to Paul, and no one knew those things, either. ... And then, while in the library, I met someone named Gerald Cohen, and he was working on "the Big Apple," and I thought I solve that right away, and people would believe that, and the mayor would surely thank me and help find living witnesses, and then I'd move on... From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 17 10:55:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:55:32 -0500 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:21:11 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART > >Over at Wilton "Word Origins" >(_http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1_ >(http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1) ), someone asked about >this. Is it old? Is it Swedish? >... >It appears to be modern mock German. >... >... >_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO:; POPPIES FOR SOLDIERS _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=500480052&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& >VName=HNP&TS=1105949754&clientId=65882) >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 22, 1952. p. 16 (1 >page) : >Vy iss it dot we are too soon oldt und too late schmardt? >Bill of Zurich Heights [...] Slightly earlier variants with "so" instead of "too": Chicago Daily Tribune, Feb 17, 1949, p. 21 And we close by quoting that sign distributed by a Milwaukee brewery to so many Chicago taverns: "Why iss it ve are so soon old, und so late schmart?" Deming (N.M.) Headlight, June 24, 1949, p. 10 I think it was R. J. (Bob) Mullins, of Santa Fe, the genial head of the New Mexico Educational Association who gave me a little motto to hang up in my office. It read: "Ve grow so oldt soon, undt yet so late shmardt." Council Bluffs (Iowa) Nonpareil, Jan 1, 1950, p. 17 With the following quotation, credited to a Pennsylvania Dutchman we will wish you all a very Happy New Year. "Ve get so soon old und yet so late schmart." Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 6, 1950, p. A6 A sign seen by a reader in Milwaukee: "Ve get so soon old Und yet so late schmadt--" Sheboygan (Wisc.) Press, June 19, 1951, p. 21 Ve Get So Soon Old Und Yet So Late Schmart. Smart people shop at McMullen. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 12:29:17 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:29:17 -0500 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) In-Reply-To: <200501170921.j0H9LGEe029762@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM: > Actually, the majority of scholars agree that chess comes from CHINA. > The > India theory was set into stone by H. J. R. Murray, brother of the > OED's Murray. H. J. R. Murray was James Murray's son. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 14:09:42 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:09:42 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Responsibility" In-Reply-To: <200501170152.j0H1qIw3014097@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: responsibility (OED 1787) 1778 _Pennsylvania Packet_ 14 July (Accessible Archives) The plans I am laying here for your future benefits, and the responsibility of my estate in case of any loss (which cannot happen) warrant my placing full confidence in your compliance with this eager solicitation. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 14:21:10 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:21:10 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Responsibility" In-Reply-To: <1105970982.41ebc72617f14@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: responsibility (OED 1787) 1737 O. Sedgewick _The World Turn'd Inside-Out_ I. 102 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) And if the Effects exceed his Responsibility, his Conscience, if he had any, will never acquit him of the Deficiency till made up, or atton'd for. Fred Shapiro From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 14:33:52 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:33:52 EST Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: Quite a discussion arose on the History of Eng. Lang. list over the pronunciation of cannot. A non-native speaker, a teacher, had been teaching the pronunciation of the second syllable as schwa--because that's what the OED has. UK and US speakers responding agreed that that is incorrect--it's the same vowel as "not." That seems right to me. So where did the OED get schwa? On a related note, I'm wondering if the spelling "cannot" may be fighting a losing battle against "can not" in the youngest generation, based on the number of my students who seem never to have absorbed the single-word convention in high school--maybe because their teachers didn't teach it. I don't know if "can not" has slipped past any editors yet, or made its way into dictionaries, but maybe it won't be long. Dale Coye Wilton, NH From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 14:37:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:37:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Unemployment" In-Reply-To: <1105971670.41ebc9d67991f@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: This is a word whose history has been much written about, including by E. P. Thompson in The Making of the English Working Class (Thompson said he had seen it used in the 1830s, but gave no citations). I remember Geoffrey Nunberg was interested in it a while back. unemployment (OED 1888) 1717 _The Censor_ (ed. 2) 191 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) When I look forwards, and anticipate in Thought the Prospect of those burning Months ... when the _Female Shopkeepers_ will be the only Beauties left us; when scarce a _powder'd Perriwig_ will be seen in the Evening from a _Coffeehouse-Balcony_, and I may lay all Day on the Solitary Board buried in Dust and Obscurity, and owe a Perusal only to the Unemployment of the indolent _Waiters_. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 15:27:17 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:27:17 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Ontology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This one antedates the revised OED. ontology (OED3 1721) 1706 Richard Brocklesby _An Explication of the Gospel-Theism and the Divinity of the Christian Religion_ 72 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) For this Platonic _Ontology_ is an ascent of the Mind. From hstahlke at BSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 15:45:51 2005 From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:45:51 -0500 Subject: burb/blurg/blog? Message-ID: Tore Janson's A Natural History of Latin (Oxford 2004) states (166): A recent coining in English is burb, used first as an abbreviation of suburb and later to mean a region of a space, especially on the internet, where numerous special interest groups have established burbs to exchange news and thoughts. "burb" gets 73k hits on Google, including special interest group sites, reference to suburban life "burb pants", and a number of "burb cloths" for babies. In one entry, both "burb" and "burp" appear in the same blurb to describe this baby accessory. Herb From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 17 16:02:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:02:19 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" commented upon some weeks ago: "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat (AP) January 12, 2005 http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains now, you should switch to refined ones. Thoughts? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:09:04 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:09:04 -0500 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) In-Reply-To: <1ec.328aeeb1.2f1cdd87@aol.com> Message-ID: At 4:21 AM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART > >Over at Wilton "Word Origins" >(_http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1_ >(http://pub122.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1) ), someone asked >about >this. Is it old? Is it Swedish? >... >It appears to be modern mock German. >... >... We had this as a legend on a pitcher in our house when I was growing up, almost certainly pre-dating '52, in the form (more or less) "We get too soon oldt und too late schmardt". I'd be surprised if it couldn't be pushed back into the 40's or earlier. > >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO:; POPPIES FOR SOLDIERS _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=500480052&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& >VName=HNP&TS=1105949754&clientId=65882) >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 22, 1952. p. 16 (1 >page) : >Vy iss it dot we are too soon oldt und too late schmardt? >Bill of Zurich Heights >... >... >_have you heard?; Reading _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=498560862&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105949 >447&clientId=65882) >ELIZABETH RANNELLS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 14, > 1952. p. F2 (1 page) : >_So Right_ >Sign in bar: Ve get too soon old und too late schmart. >... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:24:42 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:24:42 -0600 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains for refined ones" + "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." In my article "Contributions To The Study of Blending" (_Etymology And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald Leonard Cohen, 1988; self-published but very favorably reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): "As a result of blending, words are often thrust into a new environment which changes the meaning of those words." (Then: two examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems to be a third one, albeit not from the standard language.). Gerald Cohen > ---------- > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January 17, 2005: > This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" commented upon some weeks ago: > > "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat (AP) > January 12, 2005 > > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > > This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains now, you should switch to refined ones. > > Thoughts? > # # # From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:41:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:41:56 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <7e.612700d7.2f1d26d0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 9:33 AM -0500 1/17/05, Dale Coye wrote: >Quite a discussion arose on the History of Eng. Lang. list over the >pronunciation of cannot. A non-native speaker, a teacher, had been >teaching the >pronunciation of the second syllable as schwa--because that's what >the OED has. UK >and US speakers responding agreed that that is incorrect--it's the same vowel >as "not." That seems right to me. So where did the OED get schwa? > On a related note, I'm wondering if the spelling "cannot" may be >fighting a losing battle against "can not" in the youngest >generation, based on the >number of my students who seem never to have absorbed the single-word >convention in high school--maybe because their teachers didn't teach >it. I don't >know if "can not" has slipped past any editors yet, or made its way into >dictionaries, but maybe it won't be long. > One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation (not-possible/permitted): An Episcopalian priest can not marry (if he doesn't want to). [CAN [NOT]] (*cannot) A Catholic priest can not marry (whether he wants to or not). [NOT [CAN]] (cannot is OK) You can not finish your dissertation (can't you?) [CAN [NOT]] You {cannot/can't} finish your dissertation (*can't you?) [only NOT [CAN]] You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) and so on. (I have a little story on why such lexical items tend to be interpretable with only the not-possible or not-permitted scope, while non-lexicalized phrases like "can not" may be freer in their interpretive possibilities, but that's another story.) Once we accept that "cannot" is a lexical item, it would not be too surprising to find variation in how it's pronounced, but I confess I'm equally ignorant about the detection of a [kaen at t] pronunciation. Maybe upper-crust RPish? Also perhaps worth noting: "couldn't" exhibits the same restriction (wide scope negation) vis-?-vis "could not", but there's no corresponding "orthographic lexicalization" of the form _couldnot_. So at least the semantic restriction on "can't" should survive even if, God forfend, _cannot_ disappears. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 16:49:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Unemployment" In-Reply-To: <1105972645.41ebcda5269b9@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 9:37 AM -0500 1/17/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >This is a word whose history has been much written about, including by >E. P. Thompson in The Making of the English Working Class (Thompson >said he had seen it used in the 1830s, but gave no citations). I >remember Geoffrey Nunberg was interested in it a while back. > > >unemployment (OED 1888) > >1717 _The Censor_ (ed. 2) 191 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) >When I look forwards, and anticipate in Thought the Prospect of those >burning Months ... when the _Female Shopkeepers_ will be the only >Beauties left us; when scarce a _powder'd Perriwig_ will be seen in >the Evening from a _Coffeehouse-Balcony_, and I may lay all Day on the >Solitary Board buried in Dust and Obscurity, and owe a Perusal only to >the Unemployment of the indolent _Waiters_. > >Fred Shapiro as I think may have come up in our earlier discussion, this is not clearly the very same abstract nominal attested in the 1888 cite, which represents the usual modern sense: 1888 Science XI. 192/1 The chief purpose of the inquiry was to ascertain..the extent of unemployment generally. In this case, _unemployment_ is a general condition for which statistics can be computed, benefits offered, etc. In the 1717 cite, it appears more to be a temporary state in which a particular individual finds him/herself (akin to _idleness_). Are the two really identical? Should the OED have two distinct listings for the state and the societal phenomenon under the main entry? (I would say it should.) larry From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 17:02:01 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:02:01 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as I have heard some posh RP types do), the pronunciation [kaen at t] works. There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >At 9:33 AM -0500 1/17/05, Dale Coye wrote: >>Quite a discussion arose on the History of Eng. Lang. list over the >>pronunciation of cannot. A non-native speaker, a teacher, had been >>teaching the >>pronunciation of the second syllable as schwa--because that's what >>the OED has. UK >>and US speakers responding agreed that that is incorrect--it's the same vowel >>as "not." That seems right to me. So where did the OED get schwa? >> On a related note, I'm wondering if the spelling "cannot" may be >>fighting a losing battle against "can not" in the youngest >>generation, based on the >>number of my students who seem never to have absorbed the single-word >>convention in high school--maybe because their teachers didn't teach >>it. I don't >>know if "can not" has slipped past any editors yet, or made its way into >>dictionaries, but maybe it won't be long. >> >One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" >as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not >interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as >such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can >be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, >while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation >(not-possible/permitted): > >An Episcopalian priest can not marry (if he doesn't want to). >[CAN [NOT]] (*cannot) >A Catholic priest can not marry (whether he wants to or not). [NOT >[CAN]] (cannot is OK) > >You can not finish your dissertation (can't you?) >[CAN [NOT]] >You {cannot/can't} finish your dissertation (*can't you?) >[only NOT [CAN]] > >You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) >You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) > >and so on. (I have a little story on why such lexical items tend to >be interpretable with only the not-possible or not-permitted scope, >while non-lexicalized phrases like "can not" may be freer in their >interpretive possibilities, but that's another story.) > >Once we accept that "cannot" is a lexical item, it would not be too >surprising to find variation in how it's pronounced, but I confess >I'm equally ignorant about the detection of a [kaen at t] pronunciation. >Maybe upper-crust RPish? > >Also perhaps worth noting: "couldn't" exhibits the same restriction >(wide scope negation) vis-?-vis "could not", but there's no >corresponding "orthographic lexicalization" of the form _couldnot_. >So at least the semantic restriction on "can't" should survive even >if, God forfend, _cannot_ disappears. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 17 17:23:05 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:23:05 +0000 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <200501171702.j0HH29AL031321@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > larry, > > If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as > I have heard some posh RP types do), the > pronunciation [kaen at t] works. > > There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). > > dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general > Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon outburts other than as: 'You kuh-naht be serious!' - Neil Crawford From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 17 17:46:27 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:46:27 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <20050117050056.8BBA2B299B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jim Parish writes: >>>>> and from the TV series "Farscape", [...] "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). <<<<< Pronounced how? Rhyming with "chalk" /t r O k/? With "calque" /t r ae l k/)? The web site you cite doesn't give pronunciations, which seems strange when talking about a TV show. -- Mark, who will be at Arisia next weekend (http://www.arisia.org/) [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:27:16 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:27:16 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Neil, Not bad, lacking IPA; he certainly is not a posh RP speaker, and his stress is on the second element, but I'm not sure what that has to do with my message. dInIs >on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> larry, >> >> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >> >> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >> >> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >> >Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon >outburts other than as: >'You kuh-naht be serious!' > >- Neil Crawford -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:45:49 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:45:49 -0600 Subject: Gorram and Frack In-Reply-To: <200501171746.j0HHkSVq004749@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: > and from the TV series "Farscape", [...] > "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). Mark Mandel asked: > Pronounced how? Rhyming with "chalk" /t r O k/? With "calque" > /t r ae l k/)? The web site you cite doesn't give pronunciations, which > seems strange when talking about a TV show. "Tralk" rhymes with "calque". Jim Parish From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:47:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:47:01 -0800 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as I have heard some > posh RP types do), the > pronunciation [kaen at t] works. i identify the forestressed pronunciation as specifically british and fairly posh. but such judgments are notoriously unreliable. we need data. arnold From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 18:49:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:49:48 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:27 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Neil, > >Not bad, lacking IPA; he certainly is not a posh RP speaker, and his >stress is on the second element, but I'm not sure what that has to do >with my message. > >dInIs > Agreed that the McEnroe example doesn't really touch on the possibility of [KAEn at t] as an alternant of [KAEnat], which now that you mention it do both seem possible to me for RP. I'll have to listen for these next time I watch a BBC telly show or British movie. (They will tend to differ in stress as well, I should expect--the former much like "can it" with fully reduced second syllable, the latter with some stress retained on the second half.) As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case below, I'm sure I've heard both first and second syllable stress on "cannot" in U. S. English, based inter alia on the rhythm rule. "You canNOT be SERious" would be natural enough, but I think "You CANnot COUNT on him" might be more likely (when there's a stressed syllable immediately following the "cannot") than "You canNOT COUNT on him". Or maybe it's just that both patterns are possible in this context. In any case, I share Dale's intuition that the "can it" pronunciation (my description, not his*) is impossible in the varieties of U. S. English I'm familiar with. larry *and now that I think of it, a bit misleading, since "can it" can or must undergo raising (=> "kee'un it") for many U.S. speakers for whom "cannot" cannot. From what I've been told, this difference won't arise for U.K. speakers, RP or otherwise, but I could be wrong about that. > >>on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--> - >>> >>> larry, >>> >>> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >>> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >>> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >>> >>> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >>> >>> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >>> >>Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon >>outburts other than as: >>'You kuh-naht be serious!' >> >>- Neil Crawford > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 19:02:02 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:02:02 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <2C992FF8-68B8-11D9-B0FC-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, Well, I'm a datum (and one who probably even overbelieves in the notorious unreliability of such). I'll see a bunch of such speakers come end of January and try to remember to report. dInIs >On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as I have heard some >>posh RP types do), the >>pronunciation [kaen at t] works. > >i identify the forestressed pronunciation as specifically british and >fairly posh. but such judgments are notoriously unreliable. we need >data. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 19:06:39 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:06:39 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Even in nonraisers, the nasal element in the stressed syllable would cause the vowel to be raised (or at least cause the perception of it to indicate raising, based on the nasal formant). dInIs >At 1:27 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Neil, >> >>Not bad, lacking IPA; he certainly is not a posh RP speaker, and his >>stress is on the second element, but I'm not sure what that has to do >>with my message. >> >>dInIs >> > >Agreed that the McEnroe example doesn't really touch on the >possibility of [KAEn at t] as an alternant of [KAEnat], which now that >you mention it do both seem possible to me for RP. I'll have to >listen for these next time I watch a BBC telly show or British movie. >(They will tend to differ in stress as well, I should expect--the >former much like "can it" with fully reduced second syllable, the >latter with some stress retained on the second half.) > >As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case below, I'm sure I've heard both >first and second syllable stress on "cannot" in U. S. English, based >inter alia on the rhythm rule. "You canNOT be SERious" would be >natural enough, but I think "You CANnot COUNT on him" might be more >likely (when there's a stressed syllable immediately following the >"cannot") than "You canNOT COUNT on him". Or maybe it's just that >both patterns are possible in this context. In any case, I share >Dale's intuition that the "can it" pronunciation (my description, not >his*) is impossible in the varieties of U. S. English I'm familiar >with. > >larry > >*and now that I think of it, a bit misleading, since "can it" can or >must undergo raising (=> "kee'un it") for many U.S. speakers for whom >"cannot" cannot. From what I've been told, this difference won't >arise for U.K. speakers, RP or otherwise, but I could be wrong about >that. > >> >>>on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >>>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>--> - >>>> >>>> larry, >>>> >>>> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >>>> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >>>> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >>>> >>>> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >>>> >>>> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >>>> >>>Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's Wimbledon >>>outburts other than as: >>>'You kuh-naht be serious!' >>> >>>- Neil Crawford >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 17 20:02:12 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:02:12 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains for refined ones" + > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of Blending" (_Etymology > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald Leonard Cohen, 1988; > self-published but very favorably reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust into a new > environment which changes the meaning of those words." (Then: two > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems to be a third one, > albeit not from the standard language.). >> > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January 17, 2005: > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" >> commented upon some weeks ago: >> >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat >> (AP) >> January 12, 2005 >> >> http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html >> >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains >> now, you should switch to refined ones. >> >> Thoughts? to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are three usages: (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW [an extension of the "replace" pattern] (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and (2). note that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD before NEW, iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new information] now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" example -- "swap NEW for OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's an extension of the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics similar to "substitute" ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" as well; i'd add "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the fact that "swap", "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* substitution, for which (in central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: in "I swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball cards", the marbles replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which participant is expressed by the direct and which by the oblique object could be entirely determined by matters of focus and topicality in the discourse. so lighter's example could result from an extension of a construction to new head verbs semantically similar to existing ones, a phenomenon that is very widely attested. cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as pretty implausible. in clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible to maintain that the speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing plans for expressing the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up with elements of each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or substitution, to use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, "Substitutions and splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's proposal is that "swap NEW for OLD" results from blending (1) substitute NEW for OLD and (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, which involves, at the surface, switches in three places, holding only the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, possible that blending takes place at a more abstract level of analysis, in which the allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is separated from the choice of "for" as the oblique marker. extensions of constructions to new head items semantically related to existing heads *could* always be analyzed as syntactic blends, with a certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this seems to me like the wrong way to go, especially since people who produce these extensions so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in general, the extensions look like innovations in grammars, made independently by some number of speakers and then spread to other speakers by the usual means. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 20:54:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:54:23 EST Subject: "Too soon Oldt und too late Smart" (1933) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer. Hate that guy...Yes, H. J. R. Murray was the son--not the brother--of James Murray. Sixteen years of parking tickets. What a life. ... Mock German spelling is always a search problem. I looked for "oldt" and "und." ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 6 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=109595240&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105994 403&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 9, 1933. p. 5 (1 page) ... _"GET SMART"_ ... Once an old German diagnosed the trouble with too many of us humans, this way: ... _"The trouble is ve get too soon Oldt und too late Smart."_ ... We disagree. It's never too late to "get SMART"--that is, get Wise. Ben Franklin wrote: ... _"The doors of wisdom are never shut."_ ... Many thousands since 1888 have been smart enough to find Safety for Savings in ... _The Franklin Society_ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 21:03:10 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:03:10 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:06 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Even in nonraisers, the nasal element in the stressed syllable would >cause the vowel to be raised (or at least cause the perception of it >to indicate raising, based on the nasal formant). > >dInIs > I'm not sure I follow--are you saying that all speakers distinguish "Can it!" ('put it in a physical or metaphorical can') from "Can it" (as a response to "It can get down to 50 below in Lansing") on the basis of the first vowel's formants? I was assuming that for many raisers, only the lexical verb and not the modal will undergo raising, or a high degree of raising. Is this wrong? And aren't there non-raisers (e.g. in the U.K.) who would neutralize the distinction between these expressions? If so, would some of them also merge "cannot" with these? I'm not sure how "the nasal element in the stressed syllable" would affect this, since they all have such. (And now that I think of it,it wouldn't be an American-style script [a] that the non-schwa RP cannotters opt for in the secondary stressed syllable, of course, but open [O].) larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 17 21:35:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:35:23 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how they originate) become "part of the language." In simple terms, more young (I guess) people - including young people who wind up as print journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part of the established meaning of "swap" and "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is beginning to embrace this entire category of words. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains for refined ones" + > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of Blending" (_Etymology > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald Leonard Cohen, 1988; > self-published but very favorably reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust into a new > environment which changes the meaning of those words." (Then: two > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems to be a third one, > albeit not from the standard language.). >> > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January 17, 2005: > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of "substitute" >> commented upon some weeks ago: >> >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are expected to place >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising daily, along with >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating a lot more >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not Carbs, Make You Fat >> (AP) >> January 12, 2005 >> >> http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html >> >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains >> now, you should switch to refined ones. >> >> Thoughts? to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are three usages: (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW [an extension of the "replace" pattern] (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and (2). note that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD before NEW, iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new information] now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" example -- "swap NEW for OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's an extension of the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics similar to "substitute" ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" as well; i'd add "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the fact that "swap", "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* substitution, for which (in central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: in "I swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball cards", the marbles replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which participant is expressed by the direct and which by the oblique object could be entirely determined by matters of focus and topicality in the discourse. so lighter's example could result from an extension of a construction to new head verbs semantically similar to existing ones, a phenomenon that is very widely attested. cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as pretty implausible. in clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible to maintain that the speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing plans for expressing the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up with elements of each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or substitution, to use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, "Substitutions and splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's proposal is that "swap NEW for OLD" results from blending (1) substitute NEW for OLD and (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, which involves, at the surface, switches in three places, holding only the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, possible that blending takes place at a more abstract level of analysis, in which the allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is separated from the choice of "for" as the oblique marker. extensions of constructions to new head items semantically related to existing heads *could* always be analyzed as syntactic blends, with a certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this seems to me like the wrong way to go, especially since people who produce these extensions so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in general, the extensions look like innovations in grammars, made independently by some number of speakers and then spread to other speakers by the usual means. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 21:41:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:41:56 EST Subject: "Never withhold good" proverb Message-ID: I was looking for "tsunami" plus "slang" or "proverb." I suppose Fred has a good citation for "teach a man to fish." ... This one didn't show up much on searches. ... ... ... _http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18386/article_detail.asp_ (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18386/article_detail.asp) ... Yet in the tsunami's wake, as in the world at large, the U.S. military represents only a fraction of American generosity. Contrary to popular misconceptions, America's willingness to help those in need began long before Mr. Egeland tried to shame Americans into giving by slurring them. Americans understand, as the old proverb says, that we should never withhold good from those who deserve it when it is within our power to act. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Impact International Fellowship of Ministers_ (http://www.impactministries.com/IIFOM/iifomapplication.htm) ... Never withhold good from any man when it is within my power to serve. Provide services that are relevant to the needs of my community. ... www.impactministries.com/IIFOM/iifomapplication.htm - 30k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:4z5F1L6PIZwJ:www.impactministries.com/IIFOM/iifom application.htm+"never+withhold+good"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.impactministries.com /IIFOM/iifomapplication.htm) From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 17 21:58:50 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:58:50 +0000 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation UK In-Reply-To: <200501171722.j0HHMnAL007057@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 17/1/05 5:23 pm, neil at neil at TYPOG.CO.UK wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --> - >> >> larry, >> >> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >> >> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >> >> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general Just chucking a stone in the water. Of course Charles, a monarch in waiting (dream on - what's the origin of that?), would say 'You kent be serious!' - Neil Crawford From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 17 22:04:28 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:04:28 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope; I was just observing that the vowel would be raised even in the dialects of nonraisers as a result of the following nasal (or appear to be raised as a result of the influence of the nasal formant). You are quite right however to observe that function words, including modals, often show considerably less raising among raisers, but whether that would extend to nonraisers, all of whose low vowels would appear to be raised in nasal environments, is hard to say. If the same distinction existed, however, it could be attributed to stress. dInIs >At 2:06 PM -0500 1/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>larry, >> >>Even in nonraisers, the nasal element in the stressed syllable would >>cause the vowel to be raised (or at least cause the perception of it >>to indicate raising, based on the nasal formant). >> >>dInIs >> > >I'm not sure I follow--are you saying that all speakers distinguish >"Can it!" ('put it in a physical or metaphorical can') from "Can it" >(as a response to "It can get down to 50 below in Lansing") on the >basis of the first vowel's formants? I was assuming that for many >raisers, only the lexical verb and not the modal will undergo >raising, or a high degree of raising. Is this wrong? And aren't >there non-raisers (e.g. in the U.K.) who would neutralize the >distinction between these expressions? If so, would some of them >also merge "cannot" with these? I'm not sure how "the nasal element >in the stressed syllable" would affect this, since they all have >such. (And now that I think of it,it wouldn't be an American-style >script [a] that the non-schwa RP cannotters opt for in the secondary >stressed syllable, of course, but open [O].) > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 17 22:18:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:18:52 EST Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: No, I'm Barry Popik. Serious plays first base. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _John's Wish Comes True, Almost; Sports of The Times _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=116983188&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105999363&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 (1 page) : ... And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge Herself: Mary Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. ... (...) ... "I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the "cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 17 22:41:51 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:41:51 -0500 Subject: "Never withhold good" proverb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I was looking for "tsunami" plus "slang" or "proverb." I suppose Fred has a > good citation for "teach a man to fish." I have that back to 1945, but would welcome anything earlier. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 18 00:02:49 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:02:49 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Agreed that the McEnroe example doesn't really touch on the > possibility of [KAEn at t] as an alternant of [KAEnat], which now that > you mention it do both seem possible to me for RP. I'll have to > listen for these next time I watch a BBC telly show or British movie. > (They will tend to differ in stress as well, I should expect--the > former much like "can it" with fully reduced second syllable, the > latter with some stress retained on the second half.) > > As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far as the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the Johnny Mac sort of case...." -Wilson > below, I'm sure I've heard both > first and second syllable stress on "cannot" in U. S. English, based > inter alia on the rhythm rule. "You canNOT be SERious" would be > natural enough, but I think "You CANnot COUNT on him" might be more > likely (when there's a stressed syllable immediately following the > "cannot") than "You canNOT COUNT on him". Or maybe it's just that > both patterns are possible in this context. In any case, I share > Dale's intuition that the "can it" pronunciation (my description, not > his*) is impossible in the varieties of U. S. English I'm familiar > with. > > larry > > *and now that I think of it, a bit misleading, since "can it" can or > must undergo raising (=> "kee'un it") for many U.S. speakers for whom > "cannot" cannot. From what I've been told, this difference won't > arise for U.K. speakers, RP or otherwise, but I could be wrong about > that. > >> >>> on 17/1/05 5:02 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>> Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------- >>> --> - >>>> >>>> larry, >>>> >>>> If you shift the stress to the first syllable (as >>>> I have heard some posh RP types do), the >>>> pronunciation [kaen at t] works. >>>> >>>> There are also British Isles [kaen@] dialect forms (less posh). >>>> >>>> dInIs, who is known for hanging around posh types in general >>>> >>> Not being a linguist, I know not how to record Mr Mackenroe's >>> Wimbledon >>> outburts other than as: >>> 'You kuh-naht be serious!' >>> >>> - Neil Crawford >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >> Wells Hall A-740 >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> Office: (517) 353-0740 >> Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 18 01:41:32 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:41:32 -0800 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <4AB62522-68E4-11D9-ADB3-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case > > Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far as > the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the > Johnny Mac sort of case...." see: Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of the verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg 71.1.102-31. arnold, *not* a co-author From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 02:25:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:25:22 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) In-Reply-To: <8a.1e7468d2.2f1d93cc@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >No, I'm Barry Popik. Serious plays first base. >... >... >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_John's Wish Comes True, Almost; Sports of The Times _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=116983188&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R >QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105999363&clientId=65882) >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 (1 >page) : >... >And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the >highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge >Herself: Mary >Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. >... >(...) >... >"I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the >"cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. Ah, but which half of the "cannot", inquiring minds want to know. (Presumably the latter half.) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 02:28:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:28:44 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <14FDF6B0-68F2-11D9-B0FC-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 5:41 PM -0800 1/17/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >>>... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case >> >>Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far as >>the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the >>Johnny Mac sort of case...." > >see: > >Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli >Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of the >verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg >71.1.102-31. > >arnold, *not* a co-author Aha--there I am in the vanguard again. Either that, or it was a lapsus. I forget which. larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 03:28:18 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:28:18 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:18:52 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >_John's Wish Comes True, Almost; Sports of The Times _ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=116983188&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R >QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1105999363&clientId=65882) >New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 (1 >page) : >... >And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the >highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge Herself: Mary >Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. >... >(...) >... >"I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the >"cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. Christian Science Monitor, March 30, 1984, p. 34 (Nexis) [I]n spite of all the heroics that Connors, Borg, and Billie Jean King have introduced into the game - not to mention You Cannot Be Serious McEnroe - there remains an Edwardian summer garden-party flavor to tennis. --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 18 03:34:41 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:34:41 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 5:41 PM -0800 1/17/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>>> ... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case >>> >>> Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far >>> as >>> the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the >>> Johnny Mac sort of case...." >> >> see: >> >> Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli >> Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of >> the >> verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg >> 71.1.102-31. >> >> arnold, *not* a co-author > > Aha--there I am in the vanguard again. Either that, or it was a > lapsus. I forget which. > > larry > Sigh! Unfortunately, Lar, you're hardly in the vanguard. As far as "as far as NP" without "is concerned" is concerned, it's been around for so long that you may well be in the rearguard. Who knows? Like "irregardless," it may just die out. Actually, let me restructure that. *I* haven't heard anyone say "irregardless" in years, but my social life is not what it was fifty years ago. I don't get around much, anymore. So, I no longer have a clear idea of the language used in today's American street. "Irregardless" may not have died out. By sheer coincidence, I just haven't heard it. That's really all the farther that I can go. -Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 03:44:51 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:44:51 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:25:22 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 5:18 PM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 20, 1996. p. B15 >>... >>And if they still cannot agree, they will take their grievance to the >>highest figure of authority in the entire Garden, the Hanging Judge >>Herself: Mary >>Carillo, McEnroe's childhood friend and adult nemesis. >>... >>"I will tell John, 'You cannot be serious,'" Carillo said, emphasis on the >>"cannot." She got his Queens inflections perfectly. > >Ah, but which half of the "cannot", inquiring minds want to know. >(Presumably the latter half.) Sure sounds that way from this audio clip: http://simplythebest.net/sounds/other_formats/Sun_Audio/AU_files/miscellaneous_AU_files/mcenroe_on_the_line.au >From this page: http://simplythebest.net/sounds/other_formats/Sun_Audio/miscellaneous_au.html --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 18 04:01:01 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:01:01 -0500 Subject: Nineteenth-century sexual slang Message-ID: William Herndon, a friend and law partner of Abraham Lincoln, once noted that, "desirous to have _a little_," Lincoln asked, "where I can get _some_." [Emphases in original} In the Boston Sunday Globe January 16, 2005, p.C3, col.1 : Capozzola, Christopher, The Gay Lincoln Controversy p.2C-3C -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jan 18 05:36:32 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:36:32 -0500 Subject: Real Mackay/Real McCoy In-Reply-To: <1105885867.41ea7aab637aa@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: >In 2003 Sam Clements posted this: > > > From ancestry.com, I found a poem in the Waukesha(WI) Plaindealer, > > February 7, 1871: page 1(I think), col. 3. There are five stanzas. > > Rather than print the entire poem, suffice it to say that the final > > line in each stanza was "For he's no the real Sandy Mackay." > > > > The title of the poem was "THE REAL SANDY MACKAY*" At the conclusion > > of the poem, the starred term was explained thusly: < > used in some parts of Scotland, equivalent to saying, "it's not the > > real thing.">> > >Sam's sensational discovery is actually the second earliest known >occurrence of "real Mackay" or similar phrases, the earliest being an >1856 mention of "A drappie [drop] o' the real MacKay" in a Scottish >poem recorded by the Scottish National Dictionary. The SND states >that in 1870 the Edinburgh distillers, G. Mackay & Co. adopted this as >an advertising slogan, but no documentation of that has ever been >found. > >I have tried hard to figure out who "Sandy Mackay" might refer to, and >have come up with something that is probably a total red herring but >that I find intriguing. Charles Kingsley's 1850 book, Alton Locke, >Tailor and Poet, features a character named Sandy Mackaye, a >bookseller modelled on Thomas Carlyle. I find nothing in the book >relating to "the real Sandy Mackaye," but I wonder, is it plausible >that this book, a fairly important one in its time, could have been >behind the reference in Sam's 1871 poem? The timing is possible, >although "used in some parts of Scotland" suggests more of an older >folk origin and my theory would require the term migrating in six >years from a literary reference to an alcoholic one. The record suggests (per SND) that by 1870 "real Mackay" was already a stock phrase. The SND has one speculation as to the ultimate origin ("reay" > "real" IIRC). Why "Sandy"? One possibility is that the given name was appended arbitrarily as an archetypical or stereotypical Scots name. Along with "Angus" and "Fergus", "Sandy" has been used in jokes etc. as the name of a Scot from auld lang syne. More specific alternatives are available, including the above fictional character and also a few real Alexander Mackays of the time. -- Doug Wilson From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 18 05:43:46 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:43:46 -0800 Subject: Too soon oldt und too late schmardt (1952) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 4:21 AM -0500 1/17/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> TOO SOON OLD, TOO LATE SMART > > We had this as a legend on a pitcher in our house when I was growing > up, almost certainly pre-dating '52, in the form (more or less) "We > get too soon oldt und too late schmardt". I'd be surprised if it > couldn't be pushed back into the 40's or earlier. when i was a child, back in the 40's and 50's in pennsylvania dutch country, this slogan was offered in various ways -- burned into pieces of wood, mostly -- in gifte shoppes in my native land. along with "throw momma from the train a kiss" and similar crap. it did not occur to me at the time that i should actually *buy* some of this stuff so that fifty years later i could prove that people were saying that sort of thing (however grossly inaccurately) back then. oh lord. had i but known. arnold From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 05:53:34 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:53:34 -0500 Subject: "You cannot be serious" (McEnroe, 1996) Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:28:18 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Christian Science Monitor, March 30, 1984, p. 34 (Nexis) >[I]n spite of all the heroics that Connors, Borg, and Billie Jean King >have introduced into the game - not to mention You Cannot Be Serious >McEnroe - there remains an Edwardian summer garden-party flavor to tennis. Just to pin this down further, McEnroe's "you cannot be serious" outburst occurred in 1981, in the first round at Wimbledon against Tom Gullikson. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,343-316639,00.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wimbledon2000/778283.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/newsmakers/2072245.stm --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 18 05:55:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:55:08 EST Subject: Cork taint & Trichloroanisole (TCA); Bicerin Message-ID: CORK TAINT, TRICHLOROANISOLE (TCA) ... CORK TAINT--8,290 Google hits, 204 Google Groups hits TCA + CORK--13,500 Google hits, 302 Google Groups hits TRICHRLOROANISOLE--4,270 Google hits, 79 Google Groups hits ("Cork taint" is not in OED, "miserable on wine") ... There's an article in today's METRO about the wine screw-top bottle making its way in New York wine culture. "Cork taint" is a big issue and has been written up in many places. OED should enter it, along with "trichloroanisole." ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Amorim CorkFacts - FAQs_ (http://www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm) ... Q: What is the incidence of cork taint? ... A: No. TCA is often referred to as cork taint; this wrongly suggests the cork is the sole cause of TCA. ... www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm - 19k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:uO7f4dB1uPYJ:www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm+"cork+t aint"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.corkfacts.com/contpges/faqsmain.htm) ... _Supreme Corq Inc._ (http://www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm) What is cork taint? Cork taint, also known as TCA (2,4,6 trichloroanisole) develops during the processing of tree bark cork. ... Why is cork taint a problem? ... www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm - 7k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:2MRiAO6gHjsJ:www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm+"cork+taint"&hl=en&ie =UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.supremecorq.com/faq/taint.htm) ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Cork taint_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.beer/browse_frm/thread/ac40b7f668e3089b/341e2f5e2bbeed32?q="cork+taint"&_done=/groups?q="co rk+taint"&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#341e2f5e2bbeed32) Is cork taint (a musty smell from the compound trichloroanisole, or TCA) an issue in beer circles as it is in the wine industry? ... _rec.food.drink.beer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.beer) - May 10 2000, 5:55 pm by Toby Guidry - 10 messages - 8 authors ... _Corkiness - TCA_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.crafts.winemaking/browse_frm/thread/eca618134ee9a91b/b696a22c85507c6b?q="cork+taint"&_done=/ groups?q="cork+taint"&start=0&scoring=d&n um=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2000&safe =off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b696a22c85507c6b) ... facetious). I usually play with the cork and smell the wine. Cork grade is not related to likelihood to have cork taint. Part of ... _rec.crafts.winemaking_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.crafts.winemaking) - Jun 4 1995, 9:41 pm by Tamiko Matsumura Toland - 7 messages - 5 authors ... _What's the name for that taste?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.food.wine/browse_frm/thread/d5dc3444b1f96ffd/b72c25095ff910f0?q="cork+taint"&_do ne=/groups?q="cork+taint"&start=0&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&lr=&as_qdr= &as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2000& safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b72c25095ff910f0) If the wine smells like wet newspaper, shower mildew, or moldy leaves, the culprit is likely "cork taint", which is a chlorine-containing organic compound ... _alt.food.wine_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.food.wine) - Mar 23 1995, 5:21 pm by Richard Sowalsky - 2 messages - 2 authors ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Star Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2vuAAzIFKE5kzgbhu8BpXn3f2sV1UZiPpUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 20, 2001 _Scottsbluff,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:scottsbluff+cork+taint) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+cork+taint) ...per- cent of bottles are affected by CORK TAINT each year. Natural CORKs are.....the wine went bad because of a bad CORK in the bottle. CORK is a natural.. ... ... _Valley Independent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEtCta+6b/pqDCb3KCJ1LXsrUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 05, 1998 _Monessen,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:monessen+trichloroanisole) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+trichloroanisole) ...wine sealed with natural cork contains TRICHLOROANISOLE a wine-tainting mold.. ... _News Record _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2kUSjmbV/tEt3CPvhO08yB76rqRKGZwYe0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 05, 1998 _North Hills,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_hills+trichloroanisole) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+trichloroanisole) ...wine sealed with natural cork contains TRICHLOROANISOLE a wine-tainting mold.. ... _Capital _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2kqKKdP1sBkRfB5FyHWJUF/3SKrR+9ycuUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 27, 1995 _Annapolis,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+trichloroanisole) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+trichloroanisole) ...DEAR It's a chemical compound called TRICHLOROANISOLE that gives wine its.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- BICERIN ... BICERIN--6,670 Google hits, 64 Google Groups hits (Not in OED, "miserable on coffee") ... ... The Saveur 100 is out again, with its usual quirkiness. From SAVEUR, February 2005, pg. 57, col. 2: ... 52. _Why Italians Don't Drink FRAPPUCCINO_ THE EMBLEMATIC drink of Turin is the BICERIN, a layered concoction of hot chocolate, espresso, and thick, cold cream, invented in the 1800s. Nowhere is it finer than at its probable birthplace, the city's tiny, wood-paneled Caffe Al Bicerin, once frequented by Italy's great unifier, Cavour, as well as by Nietzsche, Puccini, and Calvino--all of whom (like us) found fortification in this dark, delicious restorative. ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _WHAT'S DOING IN Turin; Events Sightseeing Where to Stay Where to Eat _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=364909 652&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106026591&clientId=65882) ALESSANDRA STANLEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 17, 2000. p. TR14 (1 page) ... Turin lays claim to the famous Giandujotti chocolates, and its pastry shops are unforgettable. The Al Bicerin Caffe, Piazza della Consolata 5, (39) 011 436 9325, has been serving its coffee with chocolate and whipped cream practically since it opened in 1763. ... From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 10:06:18 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:06:18 -0500 Subject: twixters and tweeners Message-ID: _Time_'s cover story this week features a purportedly new coinage: "twixters"... ---------- http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050124/story.html Grow Up? Not So Fast Meet the twixters. They're not kids anymore, but they're not adults either. why a new breed of young people won't ? or can't? ? settle down [...] The years from 18 until 25 and even beyond have become a distinct and separate life stage, a strange, transitional never-never land between adolescence and adulthood in which people stall for a few extra years, putting off the iron cage of adult responsibility that constantly threatens to crash down on them. They're betwixt and between. You could call them twixters. [...] The sociologists, psychologists, economists and others who study this age group have many names for this new phase of life ? "youthhood," "adultescence" ? and they call people in their 20s "kidults" and "boomerang kids," none of which have quite stuck. Terri Apter, a psychologist at the University of Cambridge in England and the author of The Myth of Maturity, calls them "thresholders." ---------- Though the article doesn't say so, _Time_ seems to have modeled its post-teen label "twixter" after the pre-teen label "tweener". (The forms "tween" and "tweenager" date back to the '40s -- see cites in OED3 and the ADS-L archive -- but "tweener" is favored in the media these days.) In two Newspaperarchive cites from 1955, "twixter" is apparently used as an equivalent to "tween(ager)": ---------- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio) May 5, 1955, p. 26/1 "In Tune With Tots, Twixters and Teens" was the keynote of the North District Spring Conference of the Ohio Child Conservation League yesterday. ---------- Newport Daily News (R.I.), Oct 26, 1955, p. 5 (advt.) If you wear a size 7 to 14, 8 to 14, or a highschooler size 10 to 16, shop in exclusive privacy for the nicest "up-to-the-minute" fashion in our new Jr. Deb Shop. [...] Black watch Milliken Skirts that are washable... Sizes 10-16 and twixter sizes 8-14. ---------- But in this 1959 cite, "twixter" is simply synonymous with "teenager": ---------- Newport Daily News (R.I.) Feb 4, 1959, p. 7/1 HOLLYWOOD (AP) -- How did teen-agers take over the popular music field? There can be no doubt that they did. The best-selling records in the nation are those favored by that age group called "'Twixt Twelve and Twenty" by Pat Boone in his best-selling book. These twixters call the tune, and the adults grudgingly follow. ---------- Another sense of "tweener" (usually capitalized) refers to those born between the Baby Boom and Generation X -- a sense evidently popularized by a 1996 _USA Today_ article: . Not surprisingly, "Twixter" has also been suggested as an alternative to this sense of "Tweener": ---------- Subject: Re: A new adult is among us! Date: 1998/02/19 Message-ID: <34ed1883.1915966 at news.primenet.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc >>Generations usually span two decades. >>To repeat: >>1945-1964 Baby Boomers >>1964-1984 Gen X >> >>Trust me on this! :) > >Ummmm - sorry, but I am definitiely *not* a GenX person. I was born 2 >days into 1965, and I think that you can probably carve out the expanse >of about 3 years on either side (1962-1968) as being those too young to >be boomers, but to old to be classified as X'ers. "Tweeners". Bill Johnson is right! I coined my own phrase for it in a column once: "Twixters." I rejected "Tweeners" because it sounded too much like "weiners." I also rejected both GenX and the boomers because I neither slacked nor yupped. ---------- --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 12:13:46 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:13:46 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Computer Science" Message-ID: computer science (OED 1961 in plural, 1964 in singular) 1959 E. D. Cashwell & C. J. Everett (title) A Practical Manual on the Monte Carlo Method for Random Walk Problems (International Tracts in Computer Science and Technology and Their Application). 1959 _Communications of the ACM_ Sept. 11 Computers, data processing and closely related fields (let us call them the "computer sciences"). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 18 12:16:35 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:16:35 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 'Irregardless' is live and well here in MI, but it's so damn cold some people would say anything just to establish the fact that phonation is possible under these circumstances. In fact, I hear it all the time - on the news, on sports shows, and on other TV shows (which I monitor for linguistic purposes only). dInIs PS: I first typed "Irregradless" and the speller honked at me; I changed it to "irregardless" and got no honk! Somebody up there loves us. >On Jan 17, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>At 5:41 PM -0800 1/17/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>>On Jan 17, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>>On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>>> >>>>>... As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case >>>> >>>>Et _tu_, Laurentie?! Nope, it can't be happening. Clearly, "[a]s far >>>>as >>>>the Johnny Mac sort of case...." must be a lapsus for "[a]s for the >>>>Johnny Mac sort of case...." >>> >>>see: >>> >>>Rickford, John R.; Thomas A. Wasow; Norma Mendoza-Denton; & Juli >>>Espinoza. 1995. Syntactic variation and change in progress: Loss of >>>the >>>verbal coda in topic-restricting _as far as_ constructions. Lg >>>71.1.102-31. >>> >>>arnold, *not* a co-author >> >>Aha--there I am in the vanguard again. Either that, or it was a >>lapsus. I forget which. >> >>larry >> > >Sigh! Unfortunately, Lar, you're hardly in the vanguard. As far as "as >far as NP" without "is concerned" is concerned, it's been around for so >long that you may well be in the rearguard. Who knows? Like >"irregardless," it may just die out. Actually, let me restructure that. >*I* haven't heard anyone say "irregardless" in years, but my social >life is not what it was fifty years ago. I don't get around much, >anymore. So, I no longer have a clear idea of the language used in >today's American street. "Irregardless" may not have died out. By sheer >coincidence, I just haven't heard it. That's really all the farther >that I can go. > >-Wilson From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 13:29:10 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:29:10 -0800 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com> Message-ID: I heard that pronunciation used in jest in England this past summer. --- Paul Zebe wrote: > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) > pronounced as a French word? > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the > Nashville area within the > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New > England schoolmarm by her > Southern students? > > Curiously, > Paul Zebe > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 13:56:03 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:56:03 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050117160219.30766.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To me, the meaning is straightforward; replace refined grains with whole grains. No confusing or nonsensical meaning. If it were "swapping whole grains AND refined ones", I would agree with your comment. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of > "substitute" commented upon some weeks ago: > > "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are > expected to place more emphasis on counting calories > and exercising daily, along with swapping whole > grains for refined ones and eating a lot more > vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not > Carbs, Make You Fat (AP) > January 12, 2005 > > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > > This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're > eating whole grains now, you should switch to > refined ones. > > Thoughts? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage > less. > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 14:11:25 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:11:25 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050117213523.5594.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hardly young at 59, the use of "swap" to mean trade, exchange, or substitute seems totally natural to me. What is the so-called "established" meaning of swap? --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of > the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to > explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how > they originate) become "part of the language." In > simple terms, more young (I guess) people - > including young people who wind up as print > journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part > of the established meaning of "swap" and > "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). > > There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is > beginning to embrace this entire category of words. > JL > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains > for refined ones" + > > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of > Blending" (_Etymology > > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald > Leonard Cohen, 1988; > > self-published but very favorably > reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust > into a new > > environment which changes the meaning of those > words." (Then: two > > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems > to be a third one, > > albeit not from the standard language.). > >> > > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January > 17, 2005: > > > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of > "substitute" > >> commented upon some weeks ago: > >> > >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are > expected to place > >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising > daily, along with > >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating > a lot more > >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not > Carbs, Make You Fat > >> (AP) > >> January 12, 2005 > >> > >> > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > >> > >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're > eating whole grains > >> now, you should switch to refined ones. > >> > >> Thoughts? > > to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are > three usages: > (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD > (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW > [an extension of the "replace" pattern] > (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW > [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and > (2). note > that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD > before NEW, > iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new > information] > > now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" > example -- "swap NEW for > OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's > an extension of > the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics > similar to "substitute" > ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" > as well; i'd add > "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the > fact that "swap", > "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* > substitution, for which (in > central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: > in "I > swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball > cards", the marbles > replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which > participant is > expressed by the direct and which by the oblique > object could be > entirely determined by matters of focus and > topicality in the > discourse. > > so lighter's example could result from an extension > of a construction > to new head verbs semantically similar to existing > ones, a phenomenon > that is very widely attested. > > cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as > pretty implausible. in > clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible > to maintain that the > speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing > plans for expressing > the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up > with elements of > each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or > substitution, to > use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, > "Substitutions and > splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's > proposal is that "swap > NEW for OLD" results from blending > (1) substitute NEW for OLD > and > (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, > which involves, at the surface, switches in three > places, holding only > the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, > possible that > blending takes place at a more abstract level of > analysis, in which the > allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is > separated from the > choice of "for" as the oblique marker. > > extensions of constructions to new head items > semantically related to > existing heads *could* always be analyzed as > syntactic blends, with a > certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this > seems to me like the > wrong way to go, especially since people who produce > these extensions > so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in > general, the extensions > look like innovations in grammars, made > independently by some number of > speakers and then spread to other speakers by the > usual means. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Jan 18 14:20:31 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:20:31 EST Subject: we can't not go Message-ID: This is what my wife said to me this morning: "But we can't not go" meaning (more or less) 'we have to go' I had just been thinking of Larry's list of examples including: You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) I don't think anyone could say *But we cannot not go." Dale Coye Wilton, NH From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Jan 18 14:32:08 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:08 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" : as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not : interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as : such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can : be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, : while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation : (not-possible/permitted): Okay, i've tried, and i just can't (no pun intended) get the distinction from the orthography. To me, the two sentences "An Episcopalian priest cannot/can not marry" are both quite equally ambiguous, at least in written form. (In writing, i prefer the "can not" method for both, but i've been smacked down for that often enough that i've learned to search and replace before sending something out for other people to look at it.) The stress pattern disambiguates the sentences, of course, but i can read either sentence with either stress pattern. I realize this makes me evil and mentally weak and all that, but i'll get over it. FWIW, just to add more fuel, in my pronunciation (where @ is short-a): can (n., container; v., to put in a container): [k at n] can (v., showing possibility or permission): [kEn] cannot/can not (negative of v., possibility): [kEnat] (w/ second syllable stress) can't: [k at nt] I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor said that only speakers of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two verbs 'can' and 'can'. I said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a distinction, and said professor responded that i didn't (by definition, i suppose), and that i was merely forcing the distinction i'd just demonstrated. Not the most glorious moment in the history of teaching about American dialects, i'd say. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Tue Jan 18 14:46:42 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:46:42 -0500 Subject: we can't not go Message-ID: Dale Coye wrote: >This is what my wife said to me this morning: "But we can't not go" meaning >(more or less) 'we have to go' I had just been thinking of Larry's list of >examples including: > >You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) >You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) > >I don't think anyone could say *But we cannot not go." Rightly or wrongly, I do think that someone could say this phrase, for particular emphasis, perhaps in an argumental exchange such as: A: 'But we can't not go!' B: 'Oh, yes we can!' ['not go' understood, affirming the second half of the double negative!] A: 'No. We...cannot...not...go!' And I would say that your wife's remark would be better interpreted as 'for us, the option of not going does not exist', rather than the much simpler form 'we have to go' (your interpretation is weighted toward the 'less' of your 'more or less'). Michael McKernan From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 14:54:10 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: twixters and tweeners In-Reply-To: <62857.69.142.143.59.1106042778.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 5:06 AM -0500 1/18/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >_Time_'s cover story this week features a purportedly new coinage: >"twixters"... > >---------- >http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050124/story.html >Grow Up? Not So Fast >Meet the twixters. They're not kids anymore, but they're not adults >either. why a new breed of young people won't ? or can't? ? settle down >[...] >The years from 18 until 25 and even beyond have become a distinct and >separate life stage, a strange, transitional never-never land between >adolescence and adulthood in which people stall for a few extra years, >putting off the iron cage of adult responsibility that constantly >threatens to crash down on them. They're betwixt and between. You could >call them twixters. >[...] >The sociologists, psychologists, economists and others who study this age >group have many names for this new phase of life ? "youthhood," >"adultescence" ?... Plus ?a change--the word "adult" is itself originally from the past participle (_adultus_) of the verb _adolescere_, the idea being that once one has finished growing up--adolesced--one is a grown-up. And of course _adolescent_ is the present participle of the same verb. So adultescence is a blend of two lexical items that were originally inflectional variants of the same lexical item. There may be a word for this, but if so I don't know it. (auto-doublet?) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 14:59:25 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:59:25 -0500 Subject: we can't not go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:20 AM -0500 1/18/05, Dale Coye wrote: >This is what my wife said to me this morning: "But we can't not go" meaning >(more or less) 'we have to go' I had just been thinking of Larry's list of >examples including: > >You can not go to the party. (it's up to you) >You {cannot/can't} go to the party. (sorry about that) > >I don't think anyone could say *But we cannot not go." > >Dale Coye >Wilton, NH Au contraire. It's just a bit more formal. Google score: can't not: 146,000 cannot not: 98,600 The raw numbers don't mean much, but the proportion seems right to me. (In many languages, necessity/obligation is normally or typically expressed by just such a combo, which works nicely given that (as Aristotle observed) NOT [CAN [NOT]] = MUST.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 15:13:24 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:13:24 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <00d301c4fd6a$805f5ab0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: At 9:32 AM -0500 1/18/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Laurence Horn > >: One point worth making is that despite the standard gloss of "cannot" >: as "can not" in a number of dictionaries, the two expressions are not >: interchangeable. "Cannot", like "can't", is a lexical item, and as >: such it has a partially opaque meaning. In this case, "can not" can >: be used when the modal takes wide scope with respect to the negation, >: while "cannot"/"can't" are always understood with wide-scope negation >: (not-possible/permitted): > > > >Okay, i've tried, and i just can't (no pun intended) get the distinction >from the orthography. To me, the two sentences "An Episcopalian priest >cannot/can not marry" are both quite equally ambiguous, at least in written >form. (In writing, i prefer the "can not" method for both, but i've been >smacked down for that often enough that i've learned to search and replace >before sending something out for other people to look at it.) The stress >pattern disambiguates the sentences, of course, but i can read either >sentence with either stress pattern. > >I realize this makes me evil and mentally weak and all that, but i'll get >over it. > Very interesting. So for you it's possible to write An Episcopalian priest cannot marry if he doesn't want to marry. You cannot go to the meeting, can't you? For me, these are impossible, although they'd be fine with "can not" in place of "cannot". (Note that the reading I'm trying to force with these frames is the 'possible not' or 'permitted not', as in "can, if he wants, not marry".) My claim, perhaps not optimally expressed, is that "can not" allows both interpretations, 'not possible' (or 'not permitted') and 'possible not' (or 'permitted not'), but "cannot" only allows the former. In this respect, "cannot" is like "can't" rather than like "can not". If you don't share this intuition, that would be interesting (to me, anyway). Notice that I'm making no claim that "can not" is unambiguous; the claim is only about "cannot". If you can write the above sentences in the indicated way, do you distinguish between the "cannot" versions and the inflected versions with "can't", i.e. An Episcopalian priest can't marry if he doesn't want to marry. You can't go to the meeting, can't you? ? Or are these possible for you as well? Larry, *trying* to do descriptive and not prescriptive semantic dialectology From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:20:23 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:20:23 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: <16BFF7C3.17E119F1.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. This has the searchable full text of pretty much all British and United States legal treatises published between 1800 and 1926. Please let me know if there are any law-related words or phrases you want searched in this resource. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumasb at UTK.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:26:30 2005 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:26:30 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gale? Bethany On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. > This > has the searchable full text of pretty much all British and United > States > legal treatises published between 1800 and 1926. Please let me know if > there are any law-related words or phrases you want searched in this > resource. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:29:53 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:29:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Statutory Rape" In-Reply-To: <200501181719.j0IHJA8T020100@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: statutory rape (OED 1898) 1873 Joel P. Bishop _Commentaries on the Law of Statutory Crimes_ 319 (Making of Modern Law) (heading) Carnal ravishment of children under statutes, with some further views of statutory rape. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jancarsho at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 18 17:43:55 2005 From: jancarsho at YAHOO.COM (J C) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:43:55 -0800 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: jancarsho at yahoo.com unsubscribe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 17:59:30 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:59:30 -0500 Subject: "blown out of context" Message-ID: last paragraph of article. blend of "blown out of proportion" and "taken out of context". >>> January 18, 2005 Harvard Chief Defends His Talk on Women By SAM DILLON "Initially all of the questions were from women, and I think there was definitely a gender component to how people interpreted his remarks," Dr. Didion said. "Male colleagues didn't say much afterwards and later said they felt his comments were being blown out of context. Female colleagues were on the whole surprised by his comments." Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company <<< mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:01:50 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:01:50 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <20050118050009.93A05B2956@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: JP Villanueva wrote: >>> V2FzIG15IHByZXZpb3VzIG1lc3NhZ2UganVzdCBhIGJ1bmNoIG9mIGNvZGU/ICBTb3JyeSwgSSds bCB0cnkgYWdhaW4uLS1qcHYNCiANCi0tLS0tLQ0KV2UndmUgc2FpZCAndGFyLXpoYXknIG9yIGV2 ZW4gJ2xhIHRhci16aGF5JyBoZXJlIGluIHRoZSBQYWNpZmljIE5vcnRod2VzdCBldmVyIHNpbmNl [...] <<< Howzat again?? mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:06:18 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:06:18 -0500 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050118050009.93A05B2956@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter notes-- >>> "...swapping whole grains for refined ones ..." This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're eating whole grains now, you should switch to refined ones. Thoughts? <<< Same for me. mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:14:25 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:14:25 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <20050118050009.93A05B2956@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson writ: >>> On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: [...] > As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case Et _tu_, Laurentie?! <<< Et tu, Wilson? Marcus Laurentius Marci Laurenti Marco Laurentio Marcum Laurentium Marco Laurentio Marce Laurenti <----- Second declension nouns in -ius take the vocative in long -i, not -ie. A manu scripsit Marcus Mandelensis From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:14:54 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:14:54 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation of Humira In-Reply-To: <20050118130600.K75042@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this make sense to anyone? Now I admit I will remember their product (which may be their point), but I find I am unlikely to buy it--not just because I don't need it (yet), but because of the disconnect between the spelling and pronunciation. Barbara From dsgood at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 18 18:08:03 2005 From: dsgood at GMAIL.COM (Daniel S. Goodman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:08:03 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <-2252481709480023702@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I've heard that pronunciation in Minneapolis since some time in the 1980s or 1990s. And I believe I've seen it in a novel by native Minneapolitan sf/fantasy writer Eleanor Arnason. > I heard that pronunciation used in jest in England > this past summer. > > --- Paul Zebe wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) > > pronounced as a French word? > > That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the > > Nashville area within the > > past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New > > England schoolmarm by her > > Southern students? > > > > Curiously, > > Paul Zebe > > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > -- -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 18:18:44 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:18:44 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack #Pizza Time = pizza crime #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer #Pizza Hut = pizza slut #Taco Bell = toxic hell I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. mark by hand From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Jan 18 13:25:49 2005 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:25:49 +0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Humira In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw the ad, and thought they were saying . Maybe my brain was supplying what I thought ought to be the case? Wendalyn >There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . >However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this >make sense to anyone? > > >Barbara From miriammeyers at VISI.COM Tue Jan 18 18:08:25 2005 From: miriammeyers at VISI.COM (Miriam Meyers) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:08:25 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <20050118132911.7C5B24E3C@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation is referred to regularly in the news. Miriam Meyers Metropolitan State University (emerita) On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:29 AM, James Smith wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Smith > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I heard that pronunciation used in jest in England > this past summer. > > > --- Paul Zebe wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) >> pronounced as a French word? >> That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the >> Nashville area within the >> past 10 years. Could it be a joke played on a New >> England schoolmarm by her >> Southern students? >> >> Curiously, >> Paul Zebe >> > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Tue Jan 18 18:25:55 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:25:55 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: Was my previous message just a bunch of code? Sorry, I'll try again.--jpv ------ We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle of the verb 'marcher'. Anyway, KMart was known as K-Marche', and Target was 'La target.' I've never heard anyone say 'Wal-marche'' but I bet if I did it, no one around here would bat an eyelash. For us, there was no 'upscale' or 'chic' feel to saying 'la target' a la francaise, it was just funny, and a little bit derisive. We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: Jack in the Box = jack in the crack Pizza Time = pizza crime Pizza Answer = pizza cancer Pizza Hut = pizza slut Taco Bell = toxic hell I can attest to hearing all of those, but I'm not sure I've ever heard "burger thing " for Burger King -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.13 - Release Date: 1/16/2005 From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jan 18 18:29:05 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:29:05 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: > This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many > Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, > and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation > is referred to regularly in the news. Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the call it out as being unusual or jocular? Grant Barrett From miriammeyers at VISI.COM Tue Jan 18 18:37:28 2005 From: miriammeyers at VISI.COM (Miriam Meyers) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:37:28 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <20050118182912.A1FEF548A@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: >> This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many >> Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, >> and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation >> is referred to regularly in the news. > > Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the > call it out as being unusual or jocular? > > Grant Barrett > If memory serves, it usually appears in quotation marks, with a spelling like Targzhay. The Star Tribune archives would no doubt yield examples. Target is in the news frequently. Miriam Meyers From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 18 18:56:37 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:56:37 -0500 Subject: "Target" as a French word? Message-ID: From the Star-Tribune, 4/7/1986: <<"Years ago the consumer would say, 'I shop at Tarzhay,"' quipped Ken Macke, Dayton Hudson Corp. chairman and chief executive. "Socially unacceptable. Now they almost brag about saving money." >> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Miriam Meyers Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: >> This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many >> Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, >> and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French pronunciation >> is referred to regularly in the news. > > Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the > call it out as being unusual or jocular? > > Grant Barrett > If memory serves, it usually appears in quotation marks, with a spelling like Targzhay. The Star Tribune archives would no doubt yield examples. Target is in the news frequently. Miriam Meyers From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Jan 18 19:05:51 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:05:51 -0800 Subject: birthday pants and crotch rocket Message-ID: This reminds me of something that I heard from one of my students recently. When I asked her about her weekend, she went on and on about riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably surprised that she would speak so openly and gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this except for me. Who would have known?!! Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 01/15/05 10:00AM >>> caught in the most recent New Yorker, "in one's birthday pants" 'naked from the waist down': At the same time, the stresses in the women's lives are played for comedy (and sometimes as an attempt to get two laughs out of one joke?in two episodes early in the series, two different characters are caught outside naked, one in her full birthday suit and one in his birthday pants). ----- ----- and from yet another site, suggesting that "birthday pants" might refer to crotchless pants (obviously not what was featured in "Desperate Housewives", but possibly what the porn sites were going on about): ----- http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13412.html From debaron at UIUC.EDU Tue Jan 18 19:15:20 2005 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:15:20 -0600 Subject: "Target" as a French word? In-Reply-To: <200501181856.j0IIufCd014803@relay6.cso.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Our family always called Taget "tarzhay" in the 1980s and into the early 90s -- with a tinge of irony in the voice (never did see it in print) -- because it was the elite of discount stores both in terms of the brands it offered and the clientele who shopped there, compared to the other options (at the time, by us, K-Mart and Venture). Venture has long-since gone under, and with the closing of our two local K-Marts, and with Target in a head-to-head with a WalMart that now carries some organic foods and has a more generous return policy, that distinction no longer applies, despite the fact that Target still has some designer brands the other stores don't. In any case, tarzhay has gotten old. Dennis On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > From the Star-Tribune, 4/7/1986: > > <<"Years ago the consumer would say, 'I shop at Tarzhay,"' > quipped Ken Macke, Dayton Hudson Corp. chairman and chief executive. > "Socially unacceptable. Now they almost brag about saving money." >> > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Miriam Meyers > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:37 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? > > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Grant Barrett >> Subject: Re: "Target" as a French word? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jan 18, 2005, at 13:08, Miriam Meyers wrote: >>> This topic was discussed briefly on the list a few years ago. Many >>> Minneapolitans I know use this pronunciation. (Target is based here, >>> and many of us have shopped here for years.) The French >>> pronunciation >>> is referred to regularly in the news. >> >> Do they use that pronunciation in the news without comment, or do the >> call it out as being unusual or jocular? >> >> Grant Barrett >> > If memory serves, it usually appears in quotation marks, with a > spelling like Targzhay. The Star Tribune archives would no doubt yield > examples. Target is in the news frequently. > > Miriam Meyers > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 19:53:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:53:37 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: <20050118131011.Y75042@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: > Wilson writ: >>>> >On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > [...] >> As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case > >Et _tu_, Laurentie?! ><<< > >Et tu, Wilson? > Marcus Laurentius > Marci Laurenti > Marco Laurentio > Marcum Laurentium > Marco Laurentio > Marce Laurenti <----- > >Second declension nouns in -ius take the vocative in long -i, not -ie. > >A manu scripsit Marcus Mandelensis Aha! That explains why I'm always addressed as "Laurenti" whenever I visit the Forum. I was wondering. Laurentius Robertus Cornuensis From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Jan 18 19:56:15 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:15 EST Subject: Pronunciation of Humira Message-ID: In a message dated 1/18/2005 1:15:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes: There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this make sense to anyone It's not clear from your spelling how they pronounced it. Can you write it phonetically, indicating also where the main stress falls? Dale Coye Wilton, NH From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 19:57:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:57 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:25 AM -0800 1/18/05, JP Villanueva wrote: >We've said 'tar-zhay' or even 'la tar-zhay' here in the Pacific >Northwest ever since Target stores first came in the 80s. We used >to have an upscale department store called The Bon Marche' (now >Bon-Macy's; soon to be Macy's, to satisfy someone's corporate ego). >Pronounce 'marche'' as /mar-shEy/ as in the french past participle >of the verb 'marcher'. > Bon March? is also French for 'inexpensive'; the crucial etymon is not _marcher_ 'walk' but _march?_ 'market', I believe from Lat. mercatus, and hence a cognate for "market" itself. (To get something at good market is getting it cheap.) L From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:19:13 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:19:13 -0500 Subject: birthday pants and crotch rocket In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah! Shades of the past. "Crotch rocket" reminds me of "crotch cricket," our adolescent synonym for crab louse. What wags we were! dInIs >This reminds me of something that I heard from >one of my students recently. When I asked her >about her weekend, she went on and on about >riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably >surprised that she would speak so openly and >gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't >sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll >pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. >Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of >motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this >except for me. Who would have known?!! >Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' > >>>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 01/15/05 10:00AM >>> >caught in the most recent New Yorker, "in one's birthday pants" 'naked >from the waist down': > >At the same time, the stresses in the women's lives are played for >comedy (and sometimes as an attempt to get two laughs out of one >joke?\in two episodes early in the series, two different characters are >caught outside naked, one in her full birthday suit and one in his >birthday pants). >----- > >----- > >and from yet another site, suggesting that "birthday pants" might refer >to crotchless pants (obviously not what was featured in "Desperate >Housewives", but possibly what the porn sites were going on about): >----- >http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13412.html From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:29:06 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:29:06 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation of Humira In-Reply-To: <7f.55c97d42.2f1ec3df@aol.com> Message-ID: Dale Coye writes: > >In a message dated 1/18/2005 1:15:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes: >>There is an ad on TV for a medication which they spell . >>However, they pronounce it as if it were spelled Humera. Does this >>make sense to anyone >It's not clear from your spelling how they pronounced it. Can you write it >phonetically, indicating also where the main stress falls? I'll try: hjumaira--stress on the second syllable. I'm a little uncertain as to how to write the second vowel because of the following r, but I would pronounce what they have spelled hjumeera. Barbara From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:37:15 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:37:15 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Contractual" In-Reply-To: <200501181719.j0IHJA8T020100@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Jeremy Bentham was one of the greatest of English-language neologists: he coined "maximize," "minimize," "utilitarian," "codify," and, his most important coinage, "international." Here's another one to add to his list. contractual (OED 1861) 1827 Jeremy Bentham _Rationale of Judicial Evidence_ II. 441 Laws, whether of the purely public or of the private (or contractual) class, as above, have no other object, effect, or use, than in as far as they give birth or termination to rights or obligations. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:55:26 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:55:26 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: <176BE431-6976-11D9-8D8A-000A27D87258@utk.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > Gale? > > Bethany > > On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > > Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. Gale is a leading publisher. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 20:59:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:59:52 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:08 -0500, David Bowie wrote: >FWIW, just to add more fuel, in my pronunciation (where @ is short-a): > >can (n., container; v., to put in a container): [k at n] >can (v., showing possibility or permission): [kEn] >cannot/can not (negative of v., possibility): [kEnat] (w/ second > syllable stress) >can't: [k at nt] > >I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor said that only >speakers of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two verbs 'can' and >'can'. I said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a distinction, >and said professor responded that i didn't (by definition, i suppose), >and that i was merely forcing the distinction i'd just demonstrated. > >Not the most glorious moment in the history of teaching about American >dialects, i'd say. Yep, your professor should have known that the "short a split" distinguishing lax "(I) can" from tense "(tin) can" characterizes not only New York City but also the Mid-Atlantic region encompassing Baltimore, Wilmington, and Philadelphia. Labov notes that short a is tensed in a much wider range of environments in the NYC system compared to the Mid-Atlantic system, but in both regions short a is tensed in closed syllables before front nasals (except for auxiliaries and irregular verbs). See: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch13/Ch13.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch17/Ch17.html Hmm, based on Labov's maps the part of Maryland south of DC *is* a bit far south for inclusion in the Mid-Atlantic system. Perhaps that region (or your idiolect) is influenced by Baltimore? I also wonder how extensive your short-a split is beyond the nasal environment -- you might have grown up in a transitional region. The NYC and Mid-Atlantic regions are separated by a swath of New Jersey that lacks the short a split (or has an intermediate system in which short a is tensed only before /n/ and in a few other lexical items). I grew up in a part of central New Jersey where short a is tensed very sporadically if at all. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 21:05:05 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:05:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Double Jeopardy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: double jeopardy (OED 1910) 1862 Stephen Vincent Benet _A treatise on military law and the practice of courts-martial_ (ed. 2) 103 This case disposeof the question of _autrefois acquit_, or of _autrefois convict_ at common law, or of double jeopardy of life and limb, for the same offence, in the amendments of the constitution. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jan 18 21:24:22 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:24:22 -0500 Subject: Making of Modern Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> > Gale has just brought up a new database called Making of Modern Law. > >Gale is a leading publisher. Ah - thanks. I am checking it out. Bethany From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 18 21:27:09 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:27:09 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Double Jeopardy" Message-ID: <> Fox v. State of Ohio, 46 U.S. 410, 431 (1847) (argument of plaintiff in error). John Baker From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 21:57:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:57:03 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B30@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: chain gang (OED 1834) 1833 [copyright 1831] Henry St. Clair _The United States Criminal Calendar_ 350 (Making of Modern Law) He was then taken out and lodged in the same room with the chain gang convicts, who are permitted to work abroad in the city every day. 1833 James Ross _An Essay on Prison Discipline_ (ed. 2) 16 (Making of Modern Law) It is a matter of daily observation that the men sentenced to the chain-gang from the service probably of a settler ... at first fall of considerably and are much wasted. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:09:26 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:09:26 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Extradition" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: extradition (OED 1839) 1810 Bijnkershoek, Cornelis von. A treatise on the law of war. 174 (Making of Modern Law) The important question respecting the delivering up, or as it has is called, the _extradition_ of deserters from one country to another, has been the subject of much controversy in _America_ as well as in _Europe_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:20:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:20:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:57:03 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >chain gang (OED 1834) > >1833 [copyright 1831] Henry St. Clair _The United States Criminal >Calendar_ 350 (Making of Modern Law) He was then taken out and lodged in >the same room with the chain gang convicts, who are permitted to work >abroad in the city every day. > >1833 James Ross _An Essay on Prison Discipline_ (ed. 2) 16 (Making of >Modern Law) It is a matter of daily observation that the men sentenced to >the chain-gang from the service probably of a settler ... at first fall of >considerably and are much wasted. >From APS via Proquest: 1831 _Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post_ 19 Feb. 3/4 At New Orleans, on the 26th ult. a sailor, named Borden, was stabbed to the heart by a man called the Jack of Clubs, who was attempting to rob him of a handkerchief. The murderer had just been discharged from the chain gang. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:32:23 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:32:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Juvenile Delinquent" In-Reply-To: <200501182208.j0IM8C7R007319@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: juvenile delinquent (OED 1817) 1816 _Report of the Committee for Investigating the Causes of the Alarming Increase of Juvenile Delinquency in the Metropolis_ 21 The severity of the criminal code, which inflicts the punishment of death on upwards of two hundred offences, acts very unfavourably on the mind of the juvenile delinquent. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 18 22:32:37 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:32:37 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:20:58 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:57:03 -0500, Fred Shapiro >wrote: > >>chain gang (OED 1834) >> >>1833 [copyright 1831] Henry St. Clair _The United States Criminal >>Calendar_ 350 (Making of Modern Law) He was then taken out and lodged in >>the same room with the chain gang convicts, who are permitted to work >>abroad in the city every day. >> >>1833 James Ross _An Essay on Prison Discipline_ (ed. 2) 16 (Making of >>Modern Law) It is a matter of daily observation that the men sentenced to >>the chain-gang from the service probably of a settler ... at first fall of >>considerably and are much wasted. > >>From APS via Proquest: > >1831 _Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post_ 19 Feb. 3/4 At New Orleans, on the >26th ult. a sailor, named Borden, was stabbed to the heart by a man called >the Jack of Clubs, who was attempting to rob him of a handkerchief. The >murderer had just been discharged from the chain gang. 1830 _Times_ (London) 18 June 4/2 In the month of November, 1826, General Darling altered the sentence of two soldiers who had been convicted at the quarter-sessions there of a felony, and sentenced to seven years' transportation, and instead of allowing them to undergo that punishment, he issued a regimental order, directing that they should be worked in chains in the public roads for the period of seven years; that they should be stripped of their uniforms, and dressed in felons' clothes; and that they should be worked in chain gangs, after being drummed publicly on parade out of the garrison, as rogues. --Ben Zimmer From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 18 22:39:07 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:39:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Extradition" Message-ID: <> United States v. Robins, 27 F.Cas. 825, 870 (D.S.C. 1799). The Metzger case referred to does not appear to be available on Westlaw. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Extradition" extradition (OED 1839) 1810 Bijnkershoek, Cornelis von. A treatise on the law of war. 174 (Making of Modern Law) The important question respecting the delivering up, or as it has is called, the _extradition_ of deserters from one country to another, has been the subject of much controversy in _America_ as well as in _Europe_. Fred Shapiro From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 18 23:51:24 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:51:24 -0500 Subject: can( )not (was: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <200501180500.AAA16634@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Just a couple of remarks on *can( )not* from a native speaker of Standard Southern British English. 1. INITIAL STRESS: As Larry and dInIs have said, there are indeed British dialects that stress the first syllable of *cannot* (note the spelling, and see point 2). Personally, though I'm a middle-class speaker from London, I wouldn't have identified the initial stress as an RP feature, which isn't to say that it isn't one, of course. But there definitely are the following: - the stereotyped Scottish pronunciation ['kaen@], usually rendered - Geordie and other dialects of the North-East of England, which have ['kaen@?] (where [?] is a glottal stop) 2. SPELLING: The spelling *can not* has always struck me as an American-only variant, but that is only anecdotal; I don't know whether other Brits on the list would back me up, or whether a Google search for *can not* would show predominately American sites or posters for it. As far as teaching goes, all I can say is that I was probably taught how to spell *cannot* around 1980 and that I was not aware of *can not* with narrow scope, really, until I came to America, unless it was from American sources. Obviously, though, there's now a generation that has been taught that sort of thing since I was taught it, so practices may have been widened. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 00:06:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:06:08 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: I first heard "Tarzhay" in the early '90s, though I now see I was behind the curve. The first of these corporate nicknames to reach my notice were "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both around 1983-84. Since then "Taco Hell" and "Pizza Slut" have come along. "Burger Thing" never got into HDAS, but I've used it. My wife says "Food Hyena." There's also "Office Creepo," formerly "Office Clown" (i.e., "Depot" & "Town"). JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack #Pizza Time = pizza crime #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer #Pizza Hut = pizza slut #Taco Bell = toxic hell I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. mark by hand __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 19 01:04:16 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:04:16 -0500 Subject: Yet another new blend: "folksonomy" Message-ID: Hard to keep track of all the new cyberblends. Now there's "folksonomy". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folksonomy http://www.iawiki.net/FolksOnomy Some cites: Gene Smith, "Atomiq: Folksonomy: social classification." Aug 3, 2004 http://atomiq.org/archives/2004/08/folksonomy_social_classification.html Last week I asked the AIfIA members' list what they thought about the social classification happening at Furl, Flickr and Del.icio.us. In each of these systems people classify their pictures/bookmarks/web pages with tags (e.g. wedding), and then the most popular tags float to the top (e.g. Flickr's tags or Del.icio.us on the right). Thomas Vander Wal, in his reply, coined a great name for these informal social categories: a folksonomy. Thomas Vander Wal, "You Down with Folksonomy?" Aug 4, 2004 http://www.vanderwal.net/random/entrysel.php?blog=1529 Gene supplies a good overview of Folksonomy, which is the bottom-up social classification that takes place on Flickr, del.icio.us, etc. Clay Shirkey, "Folksonomy." Aug 25, 2004 http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2004/08/25/folksonomy.php Folksonomy, a new term for socially created, typically flat name-spaces of the del.icio.us ilk, coined by Thomas Vander Wal. Adam Mathes, "Folksonomies - Cooperative Classification and Communication Through Shared Metadata." December 2004 http://www.adammathes.com/academic/computer-mediated-communication/folksonomies.html The organic system of organization developing in Delicious and Flickr was called a ?folksonomy? by Thomas Vander Wal in a discussion on an information architecture mailing list (Smith, 2004). It is a combination of "folk" and "taxonomy." Louis Rosenfeld, "Folksonomies? How about Metadata Ecologies?" Jan 6, 2005 http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000330.html Lately, you can't surf information architecture blogs for five minutes without stumbling on a discussion of folksonomies (there; it happened again!). Peter van Dijck, "Emergent i18n effects in folksonomies." Jan 15, 2005 http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2005/01/15/2419/ Folksonomies are taxonomies created by users who add tags to things. Folksonomies are messy and have a lot of problems, but their great merit is that they're scalable and they use the users' terminology by definition, a serious problem with more classic taxonomies that are created by information architects or librarians. --Ben Zimmer From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 01:37:10 2005 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:37:10 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I first heard "Tarzhay" in the early '90s, though I now see I was behind the > curve. The first of these corporate nicknames to reach my notice were > "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both around 1983-84. > Since then "Taco Hell" and "Pizza Slut" have come along. > > "Burger Thing" never got into HDAS, but I've used it. My wife says "Food > Hyena." There's also "Office Creepo," formerly "Office Clown" (i.e., > "Depot" & "Town"). In the 80's and early 90's my friends and I also used "Little Seizure's" (Little Caesar's) and "Cropduster" (Blockbuster Video). McDonald's was affectionately known as "McDeath". I can't even guess what "Food Hyena" would be. Jeff Prucher > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: > > #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: > #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack > #Pizza Time = pizza crime > #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer > #Pizza Hut = pizza slut > #Taco Bell = toxic hell > > I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of > these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. > > mark by hand > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 02:20:47 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:20:47 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <20050119013710.60692.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote: > I can't even guess what "Food Hyena" would be. Food Lion. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 02:23:30 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:23:30 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <20050119000608.93059.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 4:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ... "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both > around 1983-84. i have HoJo's from at least 1959, when Howard Johnson's took over catering [in some sense] for the Princeton Freshman Commons. arnold From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Jan 19 02:43:17 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:43:17 -0500 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. In-Reply-To: <20050119022055.E134D7AE28@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jan 19 03:53:45 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:53:45 -0500 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no >one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in >the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. > >Erik ------- Monkey Ward was the standard nickname for MW in the 30s, at least, and probably earlier. We used to call Abercrombie & Fitch "Evergrabby & Snatch." A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 04:31:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:31:29 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 1:14 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: cannot: OED pronunciation again > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson writ: >>>> > On Jan 17, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > [...] >> As far as the Johnny Mac sort of case > > Et _tu_, Laurentie?! > <<< > > Et tu, Wilson? > Marcus Laurentius > Marci Laurenti > Marco Laurentio > Marcum Laurentium > Marco Laurentio > Marce Laurenti <----- > > Second declension nouns in -ius take the vocative in long -i, not -ie. > > A manu scripsit Marcus Mandelensis > Nonhaudquaquam. Sed bonus dormitat Homerus. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 04:44:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:44:00 EST Subject: "You can't be serious" (June 22, 1981) Message-ID: It's "You can't be serious," not "You cannot be serious." You cannot always get what you want. ... ... ... YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS by John McEnroe with James Kaplan New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons 2002 ... Pg. 132: Although this was to become one of my most famous matches, I'm positive almost nobody remembers who I played, and where I played it: Tom Gullikson, first round, Wimbledon, 1981. ... Pg. 133: I threw my _new_ racket and gave a scream that came straight from Queens--but that traveled very far in the years since. ... ""Man, you cannot be serious!" ... (...) ... "You guys are the absolute pits of the world you know that?" I screamed. Another colorful bit of Queens-ese. ... ... 22 June 1981, New York Post, pg. 53, col. 3: "Why can't I argue--is it against the law to argue?" McEnroe snapped. ... In the 12th game he hammered his racquet on the turf and shouted at James after a sideline placement was called out. The crowd, which had been solidly on McEnroe's side, then began a slow handclap as a sign of disapproval, and resumed it in the tie-breaker when he argued over a service fault. ... Before the seventh game of the second set, while changing ends, McEnroe banged his chair with his racquet. ...' This brought a rebuke from James, who said: "You are misusing your racquet, Mr. McEnroe." ... Two games later another call went against McEnroe. ... "You can't be serious," McEnroe shrieked at the umpire. "You are an incompetent fool, an offense against the world." ... ... ... 23 June 1981, New York Daily News, pg. 52, col. 3: Two game later another call went against McEnroe. "You can't be serious," McEnroe shrieked at the umpires. "You are an incompetent fool, an offense against the world." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 19 04:50:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:50:27 -0500 Subject: Yet another new blend: "folksonomy" Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:04:16 -0500, I wrote: >Hard to keep track of all the new cyberblends. Now there's "folksonomy". >See: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folksonomy >http://www.iawiki.net/FolksOnomy > >Some cites: > >Gene Smith, "Atomiq: Folksonomy: social classification." Aug 3, 2004 >http://atomiq.org/archives/2004/08/folksonomy_social_classification.html >Last week I asked the AIfIA members' list what they thought about the >social classification happening at Furl, Flickr and Del.icio.us. In each >of these systems people classify their pictures/bookmarks/web pages with >tags (e.g. wedding), and then the most popular tags float to the top (e.g. >Flickr's tags or Del.icio.us on the right). Thomas Vander Wal, in his >reply, coined a great name for these informal social categories: a >folksonomy. [snip] I was wondering if any of these techno-folk were at all familiar with the anthropological current known variously ethnoscience, ethnographic semantics, or cognitive anthropology -- Conklin, Frake, et al. were analyzing "folk taxonomies" back in the mid-'50s. >From the looks of this blog entry by Peter Merholz, those in the "information architecture" field are just discovering this work: --------- http://www.peterme.com/archives/000387.html "Ethnoclassification and vernacular vocabularies" (August 30, 2004) First off, I think we should drop the term "folksonomy." No offense to Thomas -- it's a catchy term, which, I guess, is why it has caught on. It's also inaccurate. What bugs me most is the use of the word "taxonomy." Taxonomies tend toward hierarchy, and they tend to be imposed. Tagging does not a taxonomy make. What we're talking about here is "classification." In rooting around, trying to find some prior research on this topic, I plugged "folk classification" into Google, it turns out that anthropologists have done some thinking around this, particularly with respect to ethnobiology, or how the folk approach biology, and ethnoscience. This lead me to think that the appropriate term would be "ethnoclassification", and when I plugged that into Google, I found "Slouching Toward Infrastructure", a page for a 1996 Digital Libraries Workshop lead by Susan Leigh Star. --------- Merholz expanded on "ethnoclassification" in a widely cited article called "Metadata for the Masses" (October 19, 2004): http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000361.php He gives UCSD communications professor Susan Leigh Star credit for coining "ethnoclassification", but I'm sure that Leigh Star is aware of the term's history in cognitive anthropology. A quick search finds cites in anthropological journals back to the '70s, and I'd guess that it dates back to the '50s. Regardless of the term's pedigree, it looks like "folksonomy" has indeed become the preferred buzzword. The digerati sure love blending... --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 04:53:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:53:31 -0500 Subject: The name "Womack" Message-ID: I have friends, both black and white and from both Texas and Oklahoma, with this surname. They all agree that this name is pronounced approx. [w^m at k]. However, everybody that I know or have heard of with this name who is *not* from either TX or OK - regardless of race, creed, color, country of origin, or sexual orientation - pronounces the name as approx. [womaek]. Is this another coincidence, like "irregardless"? Or are Texas and Oklahoma truly out of step with the rest of the country? -Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 05:04:24 2005 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:04:24 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20The=20name=20"Womack"?= Message-ID: Assuming the name is most common in TX/OK, and not too common elsewhere, this is likely a case of the "locals" pronouncing a local name their way, while those outside the area, not hearing it spoken often, say it as they read it according to the normal rules of pronunciation. This occurs often with town and city names. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Jan 19 05:05:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:05:32 -0500 Subject: "You can't be serious" (June 22, 1981) Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:44:00 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >It's "You can't be serious," not "You cannot be serious." You cannot always >get what you want. > [snip] > >22 June 1981, New York Post, pg. 53, col. 3: [...] >"You can't be serious," McEnroe shrieked at the umpire. "You are an >incompetent fool, an offense against the world." >... >... >... >23 June 1981, New York Daily News, pg. 52, col. 3: >Two game later another call went against McEnroe. "You can't be serious," >McEnroe shrieked at the umpires. "You are an incompetent fool, an offense >against the world." Actually, I think he said both -- according to various sources the outburst went: "You can't be serious, man... You canNOT be serious!" Here's one rendition of the complete tantrum: http://www.bbc.tv/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A640081 Mac: The ball... chalk came up off of the ball... (walks toward umpire's chair) Umpire: It was a bit of chalk spread Mr McEnroe, that was a good call. Mac: Excuse me? Umpire: It was a good call... Mac: You can't be serious man; you CANNOT BE SERIOUS! That ball was on the line! Chalk flew up! (Waves his arms to demonstrate.) It was clearly in! How can you POSSIBLY call that out?!? (Audience starts to clap - possibly in appreciation for this bit of entertainment.) How can you even miss?!? Now he's walking over, and everyone knows it's in in this whole stadium. And you call that out?!? Explain that to me! You can hear "You cannot be serious! That ball was on the line! Chalk flew up!" via the audio link I provided earlier, accessible from this page: http://simplythebest.net/sounds/other_formats/Sun_Audio/miscellaneous_au.html --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 07:21:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:21:45 EST Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) Message-ID: PREACHING TO THE CHOIR--150,000 Google hits, 42,700 (Not in OED. The OUP doesn't hire choirboys.) ... Jets coach Herman Edwards was asked about keeping free agent running back Lamont Jordan. Edwards would like to keep him, he said, but that's "preaching to the choir." ... What does the revised OED have in store? ... The Newspaperarchive citation appears bad. Surprisingly, the next citation appears to be a late 1970. ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Nashua Reporter _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2uGIogR4goW5qXXpdYO8LVGUNB3I6gXroA==) Wednesday, October 06, 1937 _Nashua,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:nashua+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) ...church' at 'Nashua. I felt "more like, PREACHING TO THE CHOIR ttian THE.....TO sell. THE president talked on THE rummage sale TO he held during.. ... _Nashua Reporter _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2uGIogR4goW5JfeDA/C+EiKUNB3I6gXroA==) Wednesday, October 06, 1937 _Nashua,_ (http://www.ne wspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:nashua+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+preaching+to+the+choir+AND) ...lyedv and f8e.Te.raf 'UookVpaclt like PREACHING TO THE CHOIR than HO sell. THE.....was asTOnished TO see cation address. CHOIR anTHEms will be given at each.. ..Pg. 4?, col. 3: I felt more like preaching to the choir than the audience. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPER) ... 1. _Pentagon Expert Says Soviet Has 300 SS-9s_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=145365212&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam e=HNP&TS=1106118046&clientId=65882) By Michael GetlerWashington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Sep 24, 1970. p. A27 (1 page) : ... Porter spoke yesterday before a packed Air Force Association seminar on "the threat" to national security. Admitting that this was like "preaching to the choir," he nevertheless went on to detail a rather gloomy Pentagon view of declining U.S. defense capabilities in the face of an increasingly well armed Soviet Union. ... 2. _The "Reckless" Talk About Military Spending; Agnew Pep Meeting vs. Congressional Views _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=144185972&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106118046&clientId =65882) By Michael Getler. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1971. p. A18 (1 page) ... 3. _Industry's Conflict on Bribery Abroad Is Laid to Guidelines 'After the Fact'; LACK OF GUIDANCE FOUND ON BRIBERY _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=78274147&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN ame=HNP&TS=1106118046&clientId=65882) By RICHARD PHALON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 5, 1975. p. 57 (2 pages) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Jan 19 13:19:20 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:19:20 -0500 Subject: Monkey Wards Message-ID: I've heard this in the 1960s. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 19 13:40:33 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:40:33 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_The_name_"Womack"?= In-Reply-To: <127.53d63a69.2f1f4458@aol.com> Message-ID: An aunt of mine was married to a man Womack: they did not pronounce it the TX/OH way. I'll resist responding further to the "are Texas and Oklahoma out of step" question. Grant Barrett On Jan 19, 2005, at 00:04, Steve Boatti wrote: > Assuming the name is most common in TX/OK, and not too common > elsewhere, this > is likely a case of the "locals" pronouncing a local name their way, > while > those outside the area, not hearing it spoken often, say it as they > read it > according to the normal rules of pronunciation. This occurs often with > town and > city names. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 19 14:06:06 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:06:06 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: From: Benjamin Zimmer : On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:32:08 -0500, David Bowie wrote: :: I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor said that only :: speakers of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two verbs 'can' :: and 'can'. I said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a :: distinction, and said professor responded that i didn't (by definition, :: i suppose), and that i was merely forcing the distinction i'd just :: demonstrated. :: Not the most glorious moment in the history of teaching about :: American dialects, i'd say. : Yep, your professor should have known that the "short a split" : distinguishing lax "(I) can" from tense "(tin) can" characterizes not : only New York City but also the Mid-Atlantic region encompassing : Baltimore, Wilmington, and Philadelphia... Even to the extent that it had never occurred to me before the incident i mentioned that rhymes matching "(I) can" with ?an words (ban, man, tan, &c.) could be *actual* rhymes, as opposed to laziness on the part of the poet. : Hmm, based on Labov's maps the part of Maryland south of DC *is* a : bit far south for inclusion in the Mid-Atlantic system. Perhaps that : region (or your idiolect) is influenced by Baltimore? I also wonder how : extensive your short-a split is beyond the nasal environment -- you might : have grown up in a transitional region. Actually, the LAB maps show Southern Maryland as a kind of a linguistic no-man's-land, unassigned to any region. It's kind of fun being from a nobody knows sort of place. Anyway, it could be a transitional thing, maybe--but there really isn't any Baltimore influence the speak of in the part of Southern Maryland i grew up in (as opposed to Calvert County), unless it came indirectly from Annapolis. Kurath & McDavid pool Southern Maryland in with the Virginia Piedmont region. Given my experience with speakers from the Virginia side of the Potomac, i think that's probably correct, though Northern norms seem to be creeping into Southern Maryland (see, for example, my own work on the disappearance of monophthongal /ai/ there)--though they may be creeping into the rest of the Virgninia Piedmont, as well. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 19 13:59:03 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:59:03 -0500 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn : At 9:32 AM -0500 1/18/05, David Bowie wrote: :: Okay, i've tried, and i just can't (no pun intended) get the :: distinction from the orthography. To me, the two sentences "An :: Episcopalian priest cannot/can not marry" are both quite equally :: ambiguous, at least in written form.... : Very interesting. So for you it's possible to write : An Episcopalian priest cannot marry if he doesn't want to marry. : You cannot go to the meeting, can't you? Yes--and they're both ambiguous. : If you can write the above sentences in the indicated way, do you : distinguish between the "cannot" versions and the inflected versions : with "can't", i.e. : An Episcopalian priest can't marry if he doesn't want to marry. : You can't go to the meeting, can't you? : ? Or are these possible for you as well? Oooooooooooooooh, cool! The first one forces the meaning that an Episcopalian priest's unwillingness to marry makes it impossible for him to get married--that is, "can't" can only be what was originally claimed as solely "cannot". The second sentence is right out, though if it's "You can't go to the meeting, can you?" it would be *marginal* as saying it's impossible for you to go to the meeting--AIR, also the meaning originally claimed for "cannot". Seems to suggest that i *do* have a cannot/can not distinction, but it's utterly detached from orthography. Interesting. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 19 14:11:21 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:11:21 +0000 Subject: JONG Message-ID: In 'Swimming Sinners', by Ralph Burch (Hustler paperbacks, c1980) online at http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels/hp10/Ralph_Burch.Swi msuit_Sinners.hp10-280.txt I came across 'jong' for penis. At first I assumed it was a misprint for 'dong' or 'yang', but have now come across two more instances, and I'm only half-way through. Any record of this term elsewhere? Neil neil at typog.co.uk From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 14:52:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:52:06 -0800 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. Message-ID: Indeed, "Monkey Ward" has been used since 1918 at least. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no >one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in >the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. > >Erik ------- Monkey Ward was the standard nickname for MW in the 30s, at least, and probably earlier. We used to call Abercrombie & Fitch "Evergrabby & Snatch." A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 14:53:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:53:21 -0800 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: It's "Food Lion," a large supermarket chain in the South. JL Jeff Prucher wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jeff Prucher Subject: Re: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I first heard "Tarzhay" in the early '90s, though I now see I was behind the > curve. The first of these corporate nicknames to reach my notice were > "Mickey D's" (now trademarked, I believe) and "HoJo's" - both around 1983-84. > Since then "Taco Hell" and "Pizza Slut" have come along. > > "Burger Thing" never got into HDAS, but I've used it. My wife says "Food > Hyena." There's also "Office Creepo," formerly "Office Clown" (i.e., > "Depot" & "Town"). In the 80's and early 90's my friends and I also used "Little Seizure's" (Little Caesar's) and "Cropduster" (Blockbuster Video). McDonald's was affectionately known as "McDeath". I can't even guess what "Food Hyena" would be. Jeff Prucher > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, JP Villanueva wrote: > > #We have a rhyming phenomenon with fast food and pizza restaurants: > #Jack in the Box = jack in the crack > #Pizza Time = pizza crime > #Pizza Answer = pizza cancer > #Pizza Hut = pizza slut > #Taco Bell = toxic hell > > I know "Taco *H*ell", not the others. We lived two doors down from one of > these our first year in Berkeley, and the smell made me sick. > > mark by hand > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Jan 19 15:34:04 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:34:04 -0800 Subject: Was: Tar-Zhay &c. Message-ID: My mom knew Monkey Wards from when she was a girl/young woman back in the 1940s or 1950s. I also knew 'Taco Hell' long before I heard Mickey D's. Fritz >>> grinchy at GRINCHY.COM 01/18/05 06:43PM >>> In discussing jocular names for chain store giants, I am surprised no one chimed in with Monkey Wards. I first encountered the expression in the early Eighties and it seemed well-known. Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 15:39:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:39:18 -0800 Subject: "blown out of context" Message-ID: syntactic blends enthusiast liz coppock responds to mark mandel's posting on "blown out of context": ----- Beautiful! Google "taken out of proportion" and you'll get some good ones. ----- arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 15:46:21 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:46:21 -0800 Subject: admirable job titles Message-ID: a NYT Science Times, 1/18/05, p. D3, article about performing autopsies on whales refers to David W. Grunden, one of the volunteers in such an undertaking on Martha's Vineyard, by his job title: "a shellfish constable and herring warden in the Martha's Vineyard town of Oak Bluffs". a perfectly serious and important job, i understand. still, an admirable job title. arnold, construction wrangler From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Jan 19 15:50:29 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:50:29 +0000 Subject: admirable job titles In-Reply-To: <200501191546.j0JFkTt5022091@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 19/1/05 3:46 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: admirable job titles > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > a NYT Science Times, 1/18/05, p. D3, article about performing autopsies > on whales refers to David W. Grunden, one of the volunteers in such an > undertaking on Martha's Vineyard, by his job title: "a shellfish > constable and herring warden in the Martha's Vineyard town of Oak > Bluffs". > > a perfectly serious and important job, i understand. still, an > admirable job title. > > arnold, construction wrangler how about: lexicographer, harmless drudge neil, typographer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 19 15:51:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:51:40 -0500 Subject: JONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:11 PM +0000 1/19/05, neil wrote: >In 'Swimming Sinners', by Ralph Burch (Hustler paperbacks, c1980) online at > >http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels/hp10/Ralph_Burch.Swi >msuit_Sinners.hp10-280.txt > >I came across 'jong' for penis. At first I assumed it was a misprint for >'dong' or 'yang', but have now come across two more instances, and I'm only >half-way through. > >Any record of this term elsewhere? > >Neil >neil at typog.co.uk in homage to Erica ("zipless fuck") Jong, you think? or just a palatalized "dong"? larry From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 19 16:15:20 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:15:20 -0800 Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) In-Reply-To: <192.379d2125.2f1f6489@aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) > > > PREACHING TO THE CHOIR--150,000 Google hits, 42,700 > (Not in OED. The OUP doesn't hire choirboys.) The OED does have "preaching to the converted." 1867 MILL Exam. Hamilton's Philos. (ed. 3) xiv. 319 Dr. M'Cosh is preaching not only to a person already converted, but to an actual missionary of the same doctrine. 1916 G. SAINTSBURY Peace of Augustans iii. 144 One may be said to be preaching to the converted and kicking at open doors in praising..the four great novelists of the eighteenth century. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 17:07:43 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:07:43 -0800 Subject: admirable job titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:50 AM, neil wrote: > on 19/1/05 3:46 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: >> arnold, construction wrangler > > how about: lexicographer, harmless drudge ah, i'm not actually a lexicographer, though i play one on the net sometimes. what i am is an appreciator of lexicography. sometimes i lend a hand to the professionals. arnold From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 19 18:05:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:05:34 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: <200501182239.j0IMd9B2029870@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: > < reference to extradition under a treaty with a foreign state, it is only > necessary to turn to the admirable opinion of Judge Betts, in the late > Case of Metzger [Case No. 9,511]. . . . Whether the judiciary has > authority in habeas corpus, after the fugitive is under arrest, to > prevent his extradition, if the president decides to make it, was not > decided.>> > > United States v. Robins, 27 F.Cas. 825, 870 (D.S.C. 1799). The Metzger > case referred to does not appear to be available on Westlaw. As more and more of our "antedatings" are obtained from online sources, it is more and more important to be conscious of the bibliographic and textual complexities that are so important to the accuracy and the authority of the OED. One of the things that makes Barry Popik's research so special is that he still is in the research libraries looking up print sources when the rest of us are limited to our computers (well, I sometimes get into the stacks, but far less than I used to). The citation above is a great case in point. This is really an 1896 occurrence, not a 1799 occurrence. Federal Cases is a set of books that frequently pops up in Lexis and Westlaw searches without any indication of its true nature. It was a late 19th-century reprint of federal decisions, in which the opinions from older "nominative" reporters are imperceptibly blended in with late 19th-century editorial additions. Here the word "extradition" appears only in the 1896 editorial additions. The Metzger case cited above is an 1847 case, so it clearly could not be referred to in 1799. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 19 18:18:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:18:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Chain Gang" In-Reply-To: <6777.69.142.143.59.1106086858.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 5:20 PM -0500 1/18/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >From APS via Proquest: > >1831 _Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post_ 19 Feb. 3/4 At New Orleans, on the >26th ult. a sailor, named Borden, was stabbed to the heart by a man called >the Jack of Clubs, who was attempting to rob him of a handkerchief. The >murderer had just been discharged from the chain gang. > any relation to Dylan's Jack of Hearts (from "Blood on the Tracks"), another denizen of the underworld? larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 19 18:31:32 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:31:32 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating Message-ID: Fred's warning is well-taken (and I thank him for the correction), but I'm not sure what the answer is, short of checking every online citation against a hard copy. I went back and looked again at the Westlaw document, and there is simply no setoff of the 1896 editorial material from the 1799 document. We clearly don't want to give up our use of online resources, even though they occasionally have errors. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating As more and more of our "antedatings" are obtained from online sources, it is more and more important to be conscious of the bibliographic and textual complexities that are so important to the accuracy and the authority of the OED. One of the things that makes Barry Popik's research so special is that he still is in the research libraries looking up print sources when the rest of us are limited to our computers (well, I sometimes get into the stacks, but far less than I used to). The citation above is a great case in point. This is really an 1896 occurrence, not a 1799 occurrence. Federal Cases is a set of books that frequently pops up in Lexis and Westlaw searches without any indication of its true nature. It was a late 19th-century reprint of federal decisions, in which the opinions from older "nominative" reporters are imperceptibly blended in with late 19th-century editorial additions. Here the word "extradition" appears only in the 1896 editorial additions. The Metzger case cited above is an 1847 case, so it clearly could not be referred to in 1799. Fred Shapiro From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 19:23:28 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:23:28 -0600 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating Message-ID: When I got started doing antedatings, it was from the OED SF project: http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml The guidance given to me by Jeff Prucher, Malcolm Farmer and/or Jesse Sheidlower was to be able to trace it to a page image, at least. Then you aren't dependent on OCR, and can look up the bibliographic info yourself. I've tried to follow this rule since with submissions directly to the OED, the HDAS, and this list. The only place this rule has caused me problems is with the turn of the century sports magazines which have been scanned into the AAFLA's web site: http://www.aafla.org/search/search.htm I'm pretty sure the pdf/"page images" in it are combinations of graphic images, pasted in from scanned originals, and OCR'ed text which has been put into new fonts and otherwise reworked. But they seem to have done an _excellent_ job. Fortunately, most of the big databases that people use here have page images incorporated. Nexis/Lexis and Factiva don't but they are so recent that they don't come into play for most of the antedatings discussed here. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Baker, John > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Pitfalls of Online Antedating > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Pitfalls of Online Antedating > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Fred's warning is well-taken (and I thank him for the > correction), but I'm not sure what the answer is, short of > checking every online citation against a hard copy. I went > back and looked again at the Westlaw document, and there is > simply no setoff of the 1896 editorial material from the 1799 > document. We clearly don't want to give up our use of > online resources, even though they occasionally have errors. > > John Baker > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 19 19:34:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:34:39 EST Subject: Salade Composee; Next Best Thing to Brad Pitt Message-ID: SALADE COMPOSEE ... OED doesn't have "salade composee" either. Just miserable. Thank goodness for this parking ticket work release program to write a food dictionary. ... I was kindly supplied the following "salade composee" cite by an ADS-L lurker. It's from someone named Julia Child, whoever that is. ... ... ... Can't remember your first citing for 'composed salad' which appears in Simone Beck, Louisette Bertolle & Julia Child's 'Mastering the Art of French Cooking' (Knopf, 1961) Penguin, London, 1966, 579 as 'Salades Compos?es [don't know if the e acute will come out in email], but the index further defines a Ni?oise as a 'Combination', ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Create a Work of Art With Shades of Green on Green; VINAIGRETTE SALADE COMPOSEE The French Chef _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=154833182&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106162273&cl ientId=65882) By Julia Child. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 11, 1967. p. C10 (1 page) ... _French Salads; Salade Compoqsee Julia Child will demonstrate the preparation of today's feature recipe on "The French Chef" on WETA-TV (Channel 26) tonight at 6 and Monday at 8. Last week's recipe may be obtained by sending a stamped, self-addressed envelope to Channel 26, Washington, D.C. 20001. Salade Verte Vinaigrette _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=132592992&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106162273&client Id=65882) By Julia Child. The Washington Post, Times. Aug 17, 1969. p. 159 (1 page) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- NEXT BEST THING TO BRAD PITT ... I keep waiting for ProQuest to add more material to the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune for 2005, but no. So "the Next Best Thing Since Robert Redford" is still on hold. ... If Jennifer Aniston gets too depressed and doesn't want to marry me, she can always have "The Next Best Thing to Brad Pitt." I saw this sold at a bakery on Bleecker Street. (I ate at the Indian restaurant at Bleecker and 7th Avenue.) ... (GOOGLE) ... _The Next Best Thing to BRAD PITT Recipe_ (http://www.recipezaar.com/66338) ADVERTISEMENT - PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS Click Here. you are here: Home > The Next Best Thing to BRAD PITT. ... The Next Best Thing to BRAD PITT #66338. ... www.recipezaar.com/66338 - 27k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:53dV2KT-uy4J:www.recipezaar.com/66338+"next+best+thing +to+brad+pitt"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.recipezaar.com/66338) From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 19 19:43:48 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:43:48 -0500 Subject: "Preaching to the choir" (1970) In-Reply-To: <192.379d2125.2f1f6489@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 02:21:45AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > PREACHING TO THE CHOIR--150,000 Google hits, 42,700 > (Not in OED. The OUP doesn't hire choirboys.) > ... > Jets coach Herman Edwards was asked about keeping free agent running back > Lamont Jordan. Edwards would like to keep him, he said, but that's "preaching to > the choir." > ... > What does the revised OED have in store? OED will incorporate this under the "preach to the converted" lemma. The earliest we have is the 1970 quote in your message, which I don't reproduce here. Jesse Sheidlower OED From marshaalley at MSN.COM Wed Jan 19 19:51:05 2005 From: marshaalley at MSN.COM (Marsha Alley) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:51:05 -0800 Subject: Yet, instead of but ?? Message-ID: I have a friend who has begun to use "yet" to the exclusion of "but." I remember early on in her usage I saw the same thing in print; alas, I cannot remember where. Am I correct that the two are not synonyms and this is a new (and confusing/irritating) usage? Marsha Alley /not a linguist, but somewhat of a language prude From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jan 19 19:54:16 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:54:16 -0500 Subject: Yet, instead of but ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Example? Thanks, Bethany On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Marsha Alley wrote: >I have a friend who has begun to use "yet" to the exclusion of "but." I remember early on in her usage I saw the same thing in print; alas, I cannot remember where. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 19:55:16 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:55:16 -0600 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell Message-ID: Also computer terms: Windoze Microsuck Microshit Microscoff Microsloth Microshaft Tandy/Radioshack TRASH-80 A-O-Hell Mac-in-trash From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 19 19:55:16 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:55:16 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of cutlery. Her message is below. Note her observations that the words are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of piece. Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? Thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED ----- begin included message ----- Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the "Lotus" price list: SPOONS Extra plate, per dozen Leper Mustard $4.75 Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 FORKS etc. Levigated Pickle, Long Levitical Fruit Lewdly Child's Lewdness Fish KNIVES Lexicology Fish Lexigraphy Pie SHELLS Libellous Sugar SIFTERS Magically Sugar CHILD'S SETS Libertine No. 192 LADLES Libidinous Cream Licentious Medium Licorice Soup Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: SPOONS Daunted Egg Dauphin Ice Cream Dayspring Orange Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls Deaconry Bouillon FORKS Deafness Dessert Deathbed Oyster Deathless Fruit Debauch Child's Limitedly Cake Debility Fish and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. ----- end included message ----- From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 19:59:28 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:59:28 -0600 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: It reminds me of the ads for Women's shoes that show up in our newspaper -- I don't know where they get the names of the various lines. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Unusual names for cutlery > > > Her message is below. Note her observations that the words > are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different > ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably > that many of the words are not complimentary, which would > seem to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of piece. > From gorion at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 19 20:38:16 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:38:16 -0500 Subject: Tar-Zhay; Jean-Claude Penne; Wal-Fart; Albertscums; Needless Markup; Taco Hell In-Reply-To: <8042433129378670828@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Home Despot Office Despot Whore Foods Ho Foods (Whole Paycheck has been discussed) Around Denver there's a grocery store chain called King Soopers. They have a stores is in a historically gay neighborhood and everyone calls that location Queen Soopers. This seems to me a slightly different phenomenon than most of this name-mangling because it refers only to this single location from the chain. In my family -- and presumably in my neighborhood in general, since we were equidistant from Queen Soopers and from another King Soopers store -- we often had occasion to distinguish between the two, and this made it easy. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 19 20:51:46 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:51:46 -0500 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. >From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in 1923: [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." p. 91 I am reading the edition by the Overlook Press, Woodstock & N. Y., 2003 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From gingi at POBOX.COM Wed Jan 19 21:20:13 2005 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:20:13 -0500 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I did) and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more learned folks have any ideas? -- --<@ Rachel L.S. Sommer http://www.gingicat.org "If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jan 19 21:41:22 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:41:22 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! See HDAS. of course. Bethany >My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I did) >and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more learned >folks have any ideas? From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 21:47:35 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:47:35 -0600 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) pg. SM6 "It's hard luck to be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as completely broke as the Ten Commandments." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: broker than the 10 commandments > >> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a > book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. > Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and > familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the > archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. > > From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in > 1923: > [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" > [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." > p. 91 > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 21:49:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:49:51 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! > > See HDAS, of course. > > Bethany Yes, HDAS. The OED says only, "[origin unknown]." -Wilson Gray > >> My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I >> did) >> and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more >> learned >> folks have any ideas? > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 22:07:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:07:36 -0500 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These aren't exactly the same as "_broker_ than...," but they're close enough for government work. Actually, I have nothing serious to say against either of these cites. I just wanted a reason to mention that I appear to have outlived the expression, "close enough for government work." When I use it in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or thereabouts, they have no idea what the point of the expression is. -Wilson Gray On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- > New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest Historical > Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) > pg. SM6 > "It's hard luck to be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as > completely broke as the Ten Commandments." > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: broker than the 10 commandments >> >>> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a >> book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. >> Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and >> familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the >> archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. >> >> From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in >> 1923: >> [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" >> [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." >> p. 91 >> > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 19 22:09:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:09:06 -0600 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: Well, as a civilian engineer for the U.S. Army, I (unfortunately) know _exactly_ what you mean. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > These aren't exactly the same as "_broker_ than...," but > they're close enough for government work. Actually, I have > nothing serious to say against either of these cites. I just > wanted a reason to mention that I appear to have outlived the > expression, "close enough for government work." When I use it > in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or thereabouts, they > have no idea what the point of the expression is. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- > > New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest > Historical > > Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) pg. SM6 "It's > hard luck to > > be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as > completely broke as > > the Ten Commandments." > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society > >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: broker than the 10 commandments > >> > >>> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a > >> book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. > >> Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and > familiar, and > >> someone else also responded, but if I read the archives > correctly no > >> one produced an example from before 1954. > >> > >> From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally > published in > >> 1923: > >> [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" > >> [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." > >> p. 91 > >> > > > From marshaalley at MSN.COM Wed Jan 19 22:14:13 2005 From: marshaalley at MSN.COM (Marsha Alley) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:14:13 -0800 Subject: Yet, instead of but ?? Message-ID: Oops - forgot that little detail. Please ignore other grammar and punctuation - this was informal emailing: "I know I've mentioned it before, yet there are amino acids that are great for cravings and they work." ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: Re: Yet, instead of but ?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Example? Thanks, Bethany On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Marsha Alley wrote: >I have a friend who has begun to use "yet" to the exclusion of "but." I remember early on in her usage I saw the same thing in print; alas, I cannot remember where. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 22:18:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:18:18 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and that the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. -Wilson Gray On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Unusual names for cutlery > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. > > A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American > cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain > descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of > cutlery. > > Her message is below. Note her observations that the words > are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different > ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably > that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem > to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of > piece. > > Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? > > Thanks. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ----- begin included message ----- > > Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around > 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and > knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various > patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each > pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the > left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the > "Lotus" price list: > > SPOONS Extra > plate, per dozen > > Leper Mustard $4.75 > Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 > Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 > > FORKS > etc. > > Levigated Pickle, Long > Levitical Fruit > Lewdly Child's > Lewdness Fish > > KNIVES > > Lexicology Fish > Lexigraphy Pie > > SHELLS > > Libellous Sugar > > SIFTERS > > Magically Sugar > > CHILD'S SETS > > Libertine No. 192 > > LADLES > > Libidinous Cream > Licentious Medium > Licorice Soup > > Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: > > SPOONS > > Daunted Egg > Dauphin Ice Cream > Dayspring Orange > Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls > Deaconry Bouillon > > FORKS > > Deafness Dessert > Deathbed Oyster > Deathless Fruit > Debauch Child's > Limitedly Cake > Debility Fish > > and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up > the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the > catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make > sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least > half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. > > ----- end included message ----- > From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 22:48:52 2005 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:48:52 -0800 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: --- Wilson Gray wrote: > > I just wanted a reason to mention that I > appear to have outlived the expression, "close enough for government > work." When I use it in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or > thereabouts, they have no idea what the point of the expression is. That's surprising to me. When I was but a preemie in my 20's (I'm an infant in my 30's now), I temped for the administrative office of the Judicial Council of California for a year or so, and the phrase "good enough for government work" was never far from my lips (but far enough that my supervisors didn't hear me say it), and people seemed to know what I meant. Jeff Prucher __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 22:57:19 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:57:19 -0800 Subject: probably just a spelling error, but... Message-ID: from the Palo Alto Daily News, 1/4/05, p. 7, article by Edward Carpenter, "Two killed in unrelated Taser incidents": ----- According to Warner, Barajas appeared unaffected by the first stun gun shot, used his machete to cut the wires of [the] second shot and charged police on the third shot, jumping through the window of a house where he had been hold up for about seven hours. ----- it's barely possible that the writer thought that "hold" made more sense than the rarer word "holed". most likely, it was dictated, and "holed" ended up being replaced by the more common spelling "hold". arnold From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Jan 19 23:16:44 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:16:44 -0600 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: <05842EA2-6A68-11D9-ADCE-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: Wasn't it "Wistful Vista Drive"? Wilson Gray wrote: > I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. > sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and that > the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >> Subject: Unusual names for cutlery >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. >> >> A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >> cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >> descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >> cutlery. >> >> Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >> are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >> ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >> that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >> to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >> piece. >> >> Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> >> ----- begin included message ----- >> >> Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >> 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >> knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >> patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each >> pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >> left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >> "Lotus" price list: >> >> SPOONS Extra >> plate, per dozen >> >> Leper Mustard $4.75 >> Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >> Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 >> >> FORKS >> etc. >> >> Levigated Pickle, Long >> Levitical Fruit >> Lewdly Child's >> Lewdness Fish >> >> KNIVES >> >> Lexicology Fish >> Lexigraphy Pie >> >> SHELLS >> >> Libellous Sugar >> >> SIFTERS >> >> Magically Sugar >> >> CHILD'S SETS >> >> Libertine No. 192 >> >> LADLES >> >> Libidinous Cream >> Licentious Medium >> Licorice Soup >> >> Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: >> >> SPOONS >> >> Daunted Egg >> Dauphin Ice Cream >> Dayspring Orange >> Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >> Deaconry Bouillon >> >> FORKS >> >> Deafness Dessert >> Deathbed Oyster >> Deathless Fruit >> Debauch Child's >> Limitedly Cake >> Debility Fish >> >> and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up >> the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >> catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >> sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least >> half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. >> >> ----- end included message ----- >> > > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 19 23:32:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:32:39 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes. I remember hearing it as "Wiss Vovista" and wondering what that was. Even I was so young at the time that neither "wistful" nor "vista" was in my vocabulary. -Wilson On Jan 19, 2005, at 6:16 PM, paulzjoh wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wasn't it "Wistful Vista Drive"? > > Wilson Gray wrote: > >> I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. >> sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and >> that >> the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >>> Subject: Unusual names for cutlery >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. >>> >>> A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >>> cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >>> descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >>> cutlery. >>> >>> Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >>> are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >>> ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >>> that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >>> to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >>> piece. >>> >>> Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Jesse Sheidlower >>> OED >>> >>> ----- begin included message ----- >>> >>> Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >>> 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >>> knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >>> patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in >>> each >>> pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >>> left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >>> "Lotus" price list: >>> >>> SPOONS >>> Extra >>> plate, per dozen >>> >>> Leper Mustard $4.75 >>> Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >>> Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 >>> >>> FORKS >>> etc. >>> >>> Levigated Pickle, Long >>> Levitical Fruit >>> Lewdly Child's >>> Lewdness Fish >>> >>> KNIVES >>> >>> Lexicology Fish >>> Lexigraphy Pie >>> >>> SHELLS >>> >>> Libellous Sugar >>> >>> SIFTERS >>> >>> Magically Sugar >>> >>> CHILD'S SETS >>> >>> Libertine No. 192 >>> >>> LADLES >>> >>> Libidinous Cream >>> Licentious Medium >>> Licorice Soup >>> >>> Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: >>> >>> SPOONS >>> >>> Daunted Egg >>> Dauphin Ice Cream >>> Dayspring Orange >>> Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >>> Deaconry Bouillon >>> >>> FORKS >>> >>> Deafness Dessert >>> Deathbed Oyster >>> Deathless Fruit >>> Debauch Child's >>> Limitedly Cake >>> Debility Fish >>> >>> and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks >>> up >>> the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >>> catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >>> sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at >>> least >>> half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. >>> >>> ----- end included message ----- >>> >> >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 23:37:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:37:53 -0800 Subject: broker than the 10 commandments Message-ID: "Close enough for government work": first heard this in 1973 from a Bard College undergrad who later went into DNA-splicin' and bio-engineerin'. You have been warned. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These aren't exactly the same as "_broker_ than...," but they're close enough for government work. Actually, I have nothing serious to say against either of these cites. I just wanted a reason to mention that I appear to have outlived the expression, "close enough for government work." When I use it in speaking with toddlers in their 40's or thereabouts, they have no idea what the point of the expression is. -Wilson Gray On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: broker than the 10 commandments > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > THE BACHELOR CYNIC, HE SAYS--- > New York Times (1857-Current file); Oct 30, 1904; ProQuest Historical > Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) > pg. SM6 > "It's hard luck to be on your uppers, but no man would care to be as > completely broke as the Ten Commandments." > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of George Thompson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:52 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: broker than the 10 commandments >> >>> Barry posted on this not long ago, citing a passage from a >> book by Louis Armstrong, as quoted in a review, from 1954. >> Wilson Gray responded that the expression was old and >> familiar, and someone else also responded, but if I read the >> archives correctly no one produced an example from before 1954. >> >> From Leave It to Psmith, by P. G. Wodehouse, originally published in >> 1923: >> [Freddie Threepwood:] "Are you really broke?" >> [Psmith:] "As broke as the Ten Commandments." >> p. 91 >> > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 19 23:42:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:42:01 -0800 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: Mr. Chester Riley (William Bendix) and family resided at 1313 Blue View Terrace, an address worthy of Dickens. JL paulzjoh wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: paulzjoh Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wasn't it "Wistful Vista Drive"? Wilson Gray wrote: > I haven't the foggiest, but I do recall that 1847 Rogers Bros. > sponsored the old radio program, "Fibber Magee(sp?) and Molly" and that > the couple lived at 1847 Rogers Road. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >> Subject: Unusual names for cutlery >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. >> >> A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >> cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >> descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >> cutlery. >> >> Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >> are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >> ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >> that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >> to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >> piece. >> >> Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> >> ----- begin included message ----- >> >> Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >> 1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >> knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >> patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each >> pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >> left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >> "Lotus" price list: >> >> SPOONS Extra >> plate, per dozen >> >> Leper Mustard $4.75 >> Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >> Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 >> >> FORKS >> etc. >> >> Levigated Pickle, Long >> Levitical Fruit >> Lewdly Child's >> Lewdness Fish >> >> KNIVES >> >> Lexicology Fish >> Lexigraphy Pie >> >> SHELLS >> >> Libellous Sugar >> >> SIFTERS >> >> Magically Sugar >> >> CHILD'S SETS >> >> Libertine No. 192 >> >> LADLES >> >> Libidinous Cream >> Licentious Medium >> Licorice Soup >> >> Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: >> >> SPOONS >> >> Daunted Egg >> Dauphin Ice Cream >> Dayspring Orange >> Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >> Deaconry Bouillon >> >> FORKS >> >> Deafness Dessert >> Deathbed Oyster >> Deathless Fruit >> Debauch Child's >> Limitedly Cake >> Debility Fish >> >> and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up >> the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >> catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >> sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least >> half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. >> >> ----- end included message ----- >> > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 19 23:51:06 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:51:06 -0800 Subject: Eye-catching snack name In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050116004849.02f7c150@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2005, at 9:59 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > At the local grocery store, there are products from "Robert's American > Gourmet": snacks in bags. The first product I saw was named "Pirate's > Booty". Later I saw "Veggie Booty", "Fruity Booty", etc.: other > products > from the same company, chips or whatever. > > Now I see the product line has been extended to include "Girlfriend's > Booty". Probably a few bags should sell on the name alone. Will these > be > permitted in school lunches? Am I the last one to notice this product > on > the shelf? the first three of these were among the first solid foods consumed by the utterly adorable opal eleanor armstrong zwicky. as i recall, no salt or sugar beyond what's in the raw ingredients to start with, and no wheat flour. opal was especially fond of the Veggie version, because of the broccoli, we think. now she has lots of teeth and takes her broccoli raw and straight. i'd never heard of the products before then. now i discover that my grad students snack on them (when they can refrain from descending into chocolate). arnold From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 19 23:53:25 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:53:25 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: <20050119195516.GA19424@panix.com> Message-ID: These appear to be arbitrary words taken from a dictionary. As Jesse Sheidlower pointed out, they are not chosen for any advertising purpose and their meanings are of no consequence AFAICT. I can see two advantages to having a unique arbitrary word attached to each catalogue item: (1) to enable briefer messages when ordering the items; (2) to provide redundancy and avoid errors (if the code-word accompanied clear text). Nowadays we'd have something like "Item # XY-00067-J" available as the code for a certain product. However, back in the day a single word would have been advantageous, particularly when sent by telegraph: (1) the telegraph operator would be less likely to make an error; (2) if the telegraph charges were by word, the code word would be cheaper than an alphanumeric gobbledegook (e.g., "XY-00067-J" would be billed as eight words maybe). Just a guess. -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 19 23:59:10 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:59:10 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: I guess there's something about that 1313 combination. The Munsters, of course, lived at 1313 Mockingbird Lane. Were there any other 1313 addresses? It's not quite the same, but Donald Duck's license plate, in the comic books, was 313. This was back in the days when license plate numbers were shorter. Our license plate, when I was a boy, was 920. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery Mr. Chester Riley (William Bendix) and family resided at 1313 Blue View Terrace, an address worthy of Dickens. JL From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 01:06:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:06:53 -0500 Subject: probably just a spelling error, but... In-Reply-To: <78AACF8D-6A6D-11D9-9253-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 2:57 PM -0800 1/19/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from the Palo Alto Daily News, 1/4/05, p. 7, article by Edward >Carpenter, "Two killed in unrelated Taser incidents": >----- >According to Warner, Barajas appeared unaffected by the first stun gun >shot, used his machete to cut the wires of [the] second shot and >charged police on the third shot, jumping through the window of a house >where he had been hold up for about seven hours. >----- > >it's barely possible that the writer thought that "hold" made more >sense than the rarer word "holed". most likely, it was dictated, and >"holed" ended up being replaced by the more common spelling "hold". > >arnold with "hold up" as a--what it's called, meme?--in such police contexts larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 01:27:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:27:53 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:41 PM -0500 1/19/05, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! > >See HDAS. of course. Where it's tracked back to a 1919 hit (spelled "copesetic"), and assigned a wonderful negative etymology: [orig. unkn.; not, as sometimes claimed, from Heb., It., or Louisiana F] larry > >Bethany > >>My boss asked me today if I remembered the word "copacetic" (which I did) >>and wondered aloud how the word had evolved. Do any of you more learned >>folks have any ideas? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 01:29:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:29:37 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: <0C164676-6A64-11D9-ADCE-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: >On Jan 19, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" >>Subject: Re: copacetic? >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I don't know how it evolved, but I remember its 1950s use vividly! >> >>See HDAS, of course. >> >>Bethany > >Yes, HDAS. The OED says only, "[origin unknown]." > Hmph. For all *they* know, it could come from Hebrew, Italian, or Louisiana French! Ignoramuses! larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 20 01:49:14 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:49:14 -0500 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery In-Reply-To: <20050119195516.GA19424@panix.com> Message-ID: Some sort of commercial code? They are so inappropriate to the corresponding items, it would seem that some sort of obfuscation is intended. With the exception of "licorice" & "letterbox" they don't even relate to ordinary household words, whereas cutlery is eminently a household domain. The list reminds me of these curious flotillas of spam with attachments that show up several times a week in my email. They, too, are labelled apparently randomly from word lists in groups all beginning with the same letter. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ >No, I'm not talking about runcible spoons. > >A friend who is working on a late-nineteenth century American >cutlery catalogue has e-mailed a question about certain >descriptive (?) words found with the names of each piece of >cutlery. > >Her message is below. Note her observations that the words >are generally in the same alphabetical range (two different >ranges, the difference between which is unclear), and notably >that many of the words are not complimentary, which would seem >to argue against an adopted name for a particular kind of >piece. > >Anyone have an idea what the purpose of these words is? > >Thanks. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > >----- begin included message ----- > >Catalogue no. 43 of the Meriden Britannia Company, published around >1890 in Meriden, CT (the date is uncertain), shows spoons, forks, and >knives from the product line known as "1847 Rogers Bros." The various >patterns are illustrated, with descriptive lists of the pieces in each >pattern. What fascinates and intrigues me are the words listed to the >left of each item. For instance, here are some examples from the >"Lotus" price list: > >SPOONS Extra >plate, per dozen > >Leper Mustard $4.75 >Leporine Salt, Individual 3.75 >Letterbox Vegetable 36.00 > >FORKS etc. > >Levigated Pickle, Long >Levitical Fruit >Lewdly Child's >Lewdness Fish > >KNIVES > >Lexicology Fish >Lexigraphy Pie > >SHELLS > >Libellous Sugar > >SIFTERS > >Magically Sugar > >CHILD'S SETS > >Libertine No. 192 > >LADLES > >Libidinous Cream >Licentious Medium >Licorice Soup > >Under the "Columbia" Pattern we find: > >SPOONS > >Daunted Egg >Dauphin Ice Cream >Dayspring Orange >Limewater Ice, Perforated Bowls >Deaconry Bouillon > >FORKS > >Deafness Dessert >Deathbed Oyster >Deathless Fruit >Debauch Child's >Limitedly Cake >Debility Fish > >and so on. The insertion of various words beginning with "L" breaks up >the alphabetical order, which is not in any case consistent in the >catalogue. I really can't figure out what's going on -- it would make >sense to me if positive words were attached to the pieces, but at least >half of them are decidedly negative. No key is provided. > >----- end included message ----- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 20 02:07:58 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:07:58 -0500 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 at 8:29 PM -0500 wrote: > >Hmph. For all *they* know, it could come from Hebrew, Italian, or >Louisiana French! >Ignoramuses! > >larry The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology: "...1919 _copasetic_, in I.A. Bacheller's _A Man for the Ages_, American English, said to have originated among southern blacks in the 1800's, of uncertain origin. The suggestion that copacetic came from a Hebrew phase such as _(ha)kol b'seder_all in order, or (unrecorded) _kol b'sedek_ all with justice, is not accepted among scholars in American English, such as Frederic G. Cassidy." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 02:37:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:37:22 -0500 Subject: 1847 Rogers Road... Message-ID: was the address of Ozzie Nelson and Harriet Hilliard, probably best-known nowadays as the parents of the late, pseudo-great Ricky Nelson. -Wilson Gray From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 02:39:48 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:39:48 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: <200501191831.j0JIVXI1030115@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: > Fred's warning is well-taken (and I thank him for the > correction), but I'm not sure what the answer is, short of checking > every online citation against a hard copy. I went back and looked again > at the Westlaw document, and there is simply no setoff of the 1896 > editorial material from the 1799 document. We clearly don't want to > give up our use of online resources, even though they occasionally have > errors. As the person who was the pioneer of the use of full-text online databases for historical-lexicographical research (beginning in 1978!), I certainly don't want to discourage such online antedating. I have greatly enjoyed seeing new researchers such as Bill Mullins, Ben Zimmer, and others post their findings on this list. Ultimately there is a backup to our errors stemming from the bibliographic weaknesses of online tools, namely the fact that the OED verifies quotations from original print sources. In the meantime, while waiting for the verification to happen, we need to try to be alert at least to the more obvious bibliographic problems of the online resources, such as the Federal Cases problem on Lexis and Westlaw and the need to look at the date on the page image for Newspaperarchive.com, which often misdates newspapers in the search results. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 02:58:36 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:58:36 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Interstate" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: interstate (OED 1845) 1844 Gardner, Daniel. A treatise on international law, and a short explanation of the jurisdiction and duty of the government of the republic of the United States. 310 (Making of Modern Law) Congress has exclusive power over inter-state communication. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 03:03:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:03:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Folk-Law" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: folk-law (OED 1884) 1875 J. W. Probyn _Local Government and Taxation_ 397 (Making of Modern Law) Folk-law was immutably localised. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jan 20 03:30:47 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:30:47 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it is possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > /T/, I think. From N'archive: ---------- _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: <> ---------- IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". IMHO the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some sort of a shibboleth. -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 04:52:40 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:52:40 -0600 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating Message-ID: Is the below a hard and fast rule? I've submitted some science fiction cites from scanned fanzines that I would bet that no one at the OED _can_ look up on original print sources. ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Fred Shapiro Sent: Wed 1/19/2005 8:39 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Pitfalls of Online Antedating On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: Ultimately there is a backup to our errors stemming from the bibliographic weaknesses of online tools, namely the fact that the OED verifies quotations from original print sources. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 04:54:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:54:42 EST Subject: Queer as folk (1872); Fire the gay linguists? (Richard Cohen, 1-17-05) Message-ID: QUEER AS FOLK ... I've been looking at THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS by Elizabeth Knowles. The sixth edition came out in September 2004. ... On page 632, "There is nowt so queer as folk" is given as "early 20th century." ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Gettysburg Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2mj6fsBztgh/gqP9vk7XH4os8fAZDtJHFEIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, July 14, 1936 _Gettysburg,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+queer+as+folk+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+queer+as+folk+AND) ...may be in parts there's nothing AS QUEER AS FOLK. Nancy led him along a.....in his mind the old, Old truth that QUEER though nature.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _WATER FRAUDS.; Further Report from the Subcommittee of the Brooklyn Fifty. The Hempstead Storage Reservoir--Further Particulars Respecting the Matter--A Question of Veracity._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=79023977&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106195847&cli entId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 30, 1872. p. 3 (1 page) ... There is nothing so queer as folks, and we simple-living country people can hardly comprehend such downright nonsense. .. _THE GREWELTHORPE FEUD._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=98656343&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106196274& clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 15, 1881. p. 3 (1 page) .. "Weel! there's nou't sae wueer as folks!" ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------- FIRE THE GAY LINGUISTS? ... That's after we kill all the lawyers. ... >From a Richard Cohen story about the "gay" President Lincoln, in yesterdays newspapers. ... ... _New York Daily News - News & Views Columnists - Richard Cohen ..._ (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html) ... evolution is today. Facts do not matter when faith is at stake. Fire the gay linguists. Originally published on January 17, 2005. ... www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html - 40k - Jan 18, 2005 - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yFxbMDbfpP8J:www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html+"fire+the+gay+linguists"&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/272255p-233116c.html) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 20 04:56:28 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:56:28 -0800 Subject: unfortunate editorial choices Message-ID: from the 1/19/05 Palo Alto Daily News, p. 1 headline Prominent local hit by train, dies the sad story of "Robert Pringle, a 54-year-old father of three and member of one of the Peninsula's most recognized families", who died after being struck by a Caltrain in Menlo Park. the p. 1 story says: "The coroner has not ruled on the cause of death." the jump from p. 1 to the continuation on p. 58 is CALTRAIN. alas, the pickup on p. 58 is SUICIDE. a precipitous judgment, an unfortunate editorial choice, though likely to be accurate. well, we have a suicide a month, roughly, on the train line that runs south from san francisco, north from san jose, just two blocks from my house. level grade crossings, so you can just walk out onto the line and face your death as you want to. distraught teenagers, the down and out, the lonely elderly slipping uncontrollably into alzheimer's, people of all ages and stations who are depressed, often without their friends and families having any sense of the depth of their despair. some of them lie down on the tracks or curl into a ball, so as not to be so visible. some of them face the oncoming train right on, standing up. it's hell on the engineers who drive the trains. arnold From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 04:55:21 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:55:21 -0600 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: Yeah, but they are trying to get past spam filters. At least there is some logic behind them. My most recent example: "ammonia upshot gerard invincible plunder inhibition allied thereupon latus pain baroness afro defiant explosion apse encyclopedic gloriana falsehood deify knox tempestuous format rhythmic cushion spectrophotometer couch indecipherable rufus egg handclasp advert grosbeak regis sec midsection yin caret nursery against memento " ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen Sent: Wed 1/19/2005 7:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery The list reminds me of these curious flotillas of spam with attachments that show up several times a week in my email. They, too, are labelled apparently randomly from word lists in groups all beginning with the same letter. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Jan 20 05:04:41 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:04:41 -0600 Subject: crotch rocket Message-ID: I know I've heard it since the mid 80s - typically light weight, high powered Japanese motorcycles. I think the type model was the Kawasaki 1000cc three cylinder two stroke, maybe called the Z-3 from the mid 70s. The Kawasaki ZX-10, in the late 80s, with about 425 lbs dry weight, >100 hp, out-of-the-box top speed of 175 mph, was typical. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" This reminds me of something that I heard from one of my students recently. When I asked her about her weekend, she went on and on about riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably surprised that she would speak so openly and gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this except for me. Who would have known?!! Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 05:25:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:25:57 EST Subject: Justice delayed is justice denied (1882); Pay peanuts and get monkeys (1968) Message-ID: JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED ... Maybe Fred can look this up? On page 670, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has "late-20th century"? ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _GLADSTONE'S CAREER; Fifty Years of Public Life as a Statesman and Political Leader. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102561757&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106198072&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1898. p. 7 (1 page) ... "But, above all, if we be just men, we shall go forward in the name of truth and right, bearing this in mind, that when the case is proved and the hour is come, justice delayed is justice denied." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _New Era _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2iyydr2TaKO5FGsi+Iubyj/YLWPMWea2nkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, June 04, 1890 _Humeston,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:humeston+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) ...JUSTICE DELAYED always seems like JUSTICE DENIED. business ought to be on.....tons of -hay AND straw soid: clover AND grass seeds produced AND sold; silos.. ... _Democratic Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2txpGaSPLSh92M4cXMYzOcZZIVxqICXOJw==) Friday, May 08, 1896 _Coshocton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:coshocton+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) ...Co. __ ____________ JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Eczema is a frightful.....about II. Ricard, tho minister of JUSTICE. Some time ago ho bought two.. ... _North Adams Transcript _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2rDi9gc698uaPNSygvV5UZXhortEDFjRn0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, June 09, 1898 _North Adams,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_adams+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Massachusetts_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+justice+del ayed+and+justice+denied+AND) ...the hoar is como JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Yes, tho disease of an.....AND Boiton, aUt> tor.ew York, Albany, AND the W eat. Timetables AND lurlher.. ... _Cambridge Jeffersonian _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2vwO68F74opK0VwgH0GtsDKEa1p7zZRV1UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November 09, 1882 _Cambridge,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:cambridge+justice+delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delayed+and+justice+d enied+AND) ...cannot brook delay JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED He htiili rirfies.....magic. It in per- fectly Biifo in nil AND pleaaant to tho tnateL AND ia the.. ...g ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- PAY PEANUTS, GET MONKEYS ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this on page 623, without a source. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Post Crescent _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vJ991pK8TtNtsqQzTcvSySGmEXLbiHku0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January 05, 1969 _Appleton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Every square.....belts, pinafores, long vests, checks AND stripes AND Marks AND Spencer avoid.. ... _Daily Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nBPamMwH9mnbkxsM8UVRftSSzADCEye80IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January 05, 1969 _Salisbury,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...five applicants. Their policy: you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS. Worcester.....This time, full sar AND Caspar. PEANUTS for asthmatic chil dren? it UK.. ... _Frederick Post _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2ixoM9zSKR1kF5h3RrkOyOQJerZEPB3jikIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, January 16, 1995 _Frederick,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...get good employees. He also says, PAY PEANUTS AND you get MONKEYS. Keith. Ada.....sit for her. But your sister should PAY you an hour AND she should clean her.. ... _Ironwood Daily Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2k5Qn7hXhBlxpG8+Qg8ArTFR8EGbLuKp0kIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, December 30, 1968 _Ironwood,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+pay+peanuts+and+monkeys) ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Licenses to.....value fn other words Flexnit will PAY you up to more than your purchase.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 05:50:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:50:04 EST Subject: To err is human, screwup requires computer (1969); Business like a car (1948) Message-ID: "TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO REALLY FOUL THINGS UP REQUIRES A COMPUTER." ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (pg. 670) has this from the 1978 Farmer's Almanac. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Newark Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2j9XsOl8n7XVFkphzCh5q5EXxiRLfvW9i0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, November 18, 1969 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) ...they just get taller TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO really foul things up requires a.....COMPUTER. You won't need a COMPUTER TO tell you where TO get real.. ... _Newark Advocate _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2rewa1Rtu3mdWbrltY6gaY9MeCdzzNldC0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, October 03, 1969 _Newark,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+to+err+is+human+and+computer+AND) ...ii makes snap Great Northern Goat. TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO really foul it takes a.....dropped 9 rubber bAND inTO the office COMPUTER. Now.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "BUSINESS IS LIKE A CAR. IT WILL NOT RUN BY ITSELF, EXCEPT DOWNHILL." ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this on page 669 as an "American saying," but doesn't given a proper date. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _In the WAKE of the NEWS; In the WAKE of the NEWS _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=499875322&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT =309&VName=HNP&TS=1106199645&clientId=65882) ARCH WARD. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 22, 1948. p. B1 (2 pages) ... First page: _Particularly These Days_ Many a business is like an automobile. It will not run by itself, except down hill. --Hugh Gesshugh. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lowell Sun _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2u2qRZj2h8Cf23XB+HdNRpd9QQ5DvbVNuUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 14, 1963 _Lowell,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lowell+business+is+like+an+automobile) _Massachussetts_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachussetts+business+is+like+an+automobile) ...Nov. 22 to 21) BUSINESS IS LIKE AN AUTOMOBILE; it won't run itself.....196 World rights reserved. WHO'D MOD LIKE TO BE IF YOU COULD BE ANYONE VDU.. .. _Van Wert Times Bulletin _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2uCR2UafPvZDnE20gOQRBlutCpK032G9OkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, February 24, 1971 _Van Wert,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:van_wert+business+is+like+a+car+and+downhill) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+business+is+like+a+car+and+ downhill) ...By: Neil GAreISs BUSINESS IS LIKE A cAr. Only wAy it'll run by itself IS.....event IS SArAh Giessler, I At the BUSINESS s e s s i o n I A motion wAs.. ... _ Daily Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2tmXyS5dAHQuOlq8SuiHLGT2VDJo3xSXyEIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, February 24, 1971 _Salisbury,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+business+is+like+a+car) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+business+is+like+a+car) ...OF WISDOM By JACK PURNELL BUSINESS IS LIKE A cAr. Only wAy it'll run by itself.....ig out A pArtISAn view of event: Some, LIKE the Voice of Ameri :A, the BritISh.. ... _Walla Walla Union Bulletin _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2vc6+OxrT1VRxm9HEmsGebbjgAOtQflF0EIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, March 25, 1971 _Walla Walla,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:walla_walla+business+is+like+a+car) _Washington_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:washington+business+is+like+a+car) ...EASY CHAIR By Vern Brown BUSINESS IS LIKE A cAr. Only wAy it'll run by itself.....Oregon tribe highly successful in BUSINESS And industry, Are fighting A.. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Jan 20 05:55:29 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:55:29 -0500 Subject: Justice delayed is justice denied (1882); Pay peanuts and get monkeys (1968) Message-ID: Perhaps from Milton. In Making of America(U of Mich.) there is an 1866 book called "Treasures from the prose writings of John Milton, 1608-1674. p. 393 "Then was justice delayed, and soon after denied." SC ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:25 AM Subject: Justice delayed is justice denied (1882); Pay peanuts and get monkeys (1968) > JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED > ... > Maybe Fred can look this up? On page 670, the Oxford Dictionary of > Quotations has "late-20th century"? > > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _GLADSTONE'S CAREER; Fifty Years of Public Life as a Statesman and Political > Leader. _ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102561757&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=1 0&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106198072&clientId=65882) > > New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1898. p. 7 (1 > page) > ... > "But, above all, if we be just men, we shall go forward in the name of truth > and right, bearing this in mind, that when the case is proved and the hour > is come, justice delayed is justice denied." > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _New Era _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2iyydr2 TaKO5FGsi+Iubyj/YLWPMWea2nkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, June 04, > 1890 _Humeston,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:humeston+justice+de layed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Iowa_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+justice+delay ed+and+justice+denied+AND) > > ...JUSTICE DELAYED always seems like JUSTICE DENIED. business ought to be > on.....tons of -hay AND straw soid: clover AND grass seeds produced AND sold; > silos.. > > ... > _Democratic Standard _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2txpGaS PLSh92M4cXMYzOcZZIVxqICXOJw==) Friday, May 08, 1896 > _Coshocton,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:coshocton+justice+d elayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delay ed+and+justice+denied+AND) > ...Co. __ ____________ JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Eczema is a > frightful.....about II. Ricard, tho minister of JUSTICE. Some time ago ho bought > two.. > > ... > _North Adams Transcript _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2rDi9gc 698uaPNSygvV5UZXhortEDFjRn0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > June 09, 1898 _North Adams,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_adams+justice +delayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Massachusetts_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+just ice+del > ayed+and+justice+denied+AND) > ...the hoar is como JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED. Yes, tho disease of > an.....AND Boiton, aUt> tor.ew York, Albany, AND the W eat. Timetables AND > lurlher.. > > ... > _Cambridge Jeffersonian _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2vwO68F 74opK0VwgH0GtsDKEa1p7zZRV1UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > November 09, 1882 _Cambridge,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:cambridge+justice+d elayed+and+justice+denied+AND) _Ohio_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+justice+delay ed+and+justice+d > enied+AND) > ...cannot brook delay JUSTICE DELAYED is JUSTICE DENIED He htiili > rirfies.....magic. It in per- fectly Biifo in nil AND pleaaant to tho tnateL AND ia > the.. > ...g > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > -------------------------------------------------------- > PAY PEANUTS, GET MONKEYS > ... > The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this on page 623, without a source. > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Post Crescent _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2vJ991p K8TtNtsqQzTcvSySGmEXLbiHku0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January > 05, 1969 _Appleton,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+pay+peanut s+and+monkeys) _Wisconsin_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+pay+pean uts+and+monkeys) > ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Every > square.....belts, pinafores, long vests, checks AND stripes AND Marks AND > Spencer avoid.. > > ... > _Daily Times _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nBPamM wH9mnbkxsM8UVRftSSzADCEye80IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, January 05, 1969 > _Salisbury,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:salisbury+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) > ...five applicants. Their policy: you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS. > Worcester.....This time, full sar AND Caspar. PEANUTS for asthmatic chil dren? it > UK.. > > ... > _Frederick Post _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2ixoM9z SKR1kF5h3RrkOyOQJerZEPB3jikIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, January 16, > 1995 _Frederick,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) _Maryland_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) > ...get good employees. He also says, PAY PEANUTS AND you get MONKEYS. Keith. > Ada.....sit for her. But your sister should PAY you an hour AND she should > clean her.. > > ... > _Ironwood Daily Globe _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2k5Qn7h XhBlxpG8+Qg8ArTFR8EGbLuKp0kIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, > December 30, 1968 _Ironwood,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+pay+peanut s+and+monkeys) _Michigan_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+pay+peanu ts+and+monkeys) > ...applicants. Their policy: "If you PAY PEANUTS, you get MONKEYS." Licenses > to.....value fn other words Flexnit will PAY you up to more than your purchase.. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 06:31:13 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:31:13 EST Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE ... I don't know if this helps. Is it earlier or later than the feminist version? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Stevens Point Daily Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2lUtwWpTPNrLkRmdKtUtKqbDP+pMrf3HhkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a +bicycle+AND) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....been Able to roll out A pie crust WITHOUT the edges crAcking All the wAy.. ... Pg. 6, col. 7: The term graffiti no longer has a derogatory meaning at the University pf Wisconsin-Stevens Point. (...) ... "A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." "War is the periodic failure of politics." ... _Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nEL5Biq1wj8cgvo6I+NX31fF16a+mADDUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 22, 1973 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a+bicycle+AN D) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....cruciAl AreAs. Controls cAn'toperAte WITHOUT quick, efficient Access to dAtA.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" ... Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Forgiving: A Kind Of Freedom_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=118637351&SrchMode=1&sid=18&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110 6201822&clientId=65882) Glenn Collins. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, 1982. p. B10 (1 page) ... Gandhi's message is unequivocal: "If everyone took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind." ... _'Gandhi': Introduction To a Moral Teacher_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=126681702&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1106201249&clientId=65882) Colman McCarthy. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 2, 1983. p. K2 (1 page) ... Attenborough's film did what it could to convey the breadth of what Gandhi called _ahimsa_, organized and determined nonviolence. The line is uttered twice. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "CLOSE YOUR EYES AND THINK OF ENGLAND" ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations should have nailed this, but gives it as an anonymous proverb. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Broadway Gazette_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=291212242&SrchMode=1&sid=20&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106202073&clie ntId=65882) LEONARD LYONS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 18, 1943. p. 10 (1 page) ... ROMANCE DEPT>: Stanley Baldwin's son tells this story of the day his sister went out with a young man who wanted to marry her. She asked her mother for advice, in case the young man should want to kiss her..."Do what I did," said her mother, reminiscing of the beginning of her romance with the man who was to become Prime Minister. "Just close your eyes and think of England." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 06:37:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:37:58 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it > is > possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of > unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a > fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" > perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. > > "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of > "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > > /T/, I > think. But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever heard. A. And you know what was in it? B. Naw. What was in it? A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! -Wilson Gray > > From N'archive: > > ---------- > > _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: > > < becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I think > they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look > crowded.">> > > ---------- > > IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". > IMHO > the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some > sort > of a shibboleth. > > -- Doug Wilson > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 06:58:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:58:07 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: >"AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" >... >Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. >... >... >(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >... >_Forgiving: A Kind Of Freedom_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=118637351&SrchMode=1&sid=18&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110 >6201822&clientId=65882) >Glenn Collins. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, >1982. p. B10 (1 page) >... >Gandhi's message is unequivocal: "If everyone took an eye for an eye, the >whole world would be blind." Or was it Martin Luther King? ------ Washington Post, Sep 21, 1958, p. E6 [Review of _Stride Toward Freedom_ by Martin Luther King] Violence by Negroes, he says, is impractical: "The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind." ------ New York Times, Jul 7, 1959, p. 30 "Nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to people in the struggle for human dignity," Dr. King said. "The old eye-for-an-eye philosophy ends up leaving everybody blind." ------ King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in the 1958 review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 07:10:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:10:20 EST Subject: "Idea whose time has come" (1919); "Hammer sees nail" (1979) Message-ID: AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this in English from The Nation, 15 April 1943. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Article 34 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=522705392&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110620417 1&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jun 8, 1919. p. C6 (1 page) ... There is one thing stronger than armies, and that is an idea whose time has come.--Victor Hugo. ... _President's Address Features First Session of Federation_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=516560962&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType= PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106204171&clientId=65882) LOUISE DOOLY. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Nov 9, 1921. p. 7 (1 page) ... Victor Hugo says "There is one thing that is stronger than armies, and that is an idea whose time has come." ... _Queries and Answers; Queries and Answers _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=100003124&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam e=HNP&TS=1106203825&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1926. p. BR37 (2 pages) ... First page: _"Stronger Than Armies"_ D. E. A.--Can you tell me who wrote the following and where it may be found and its correct wording? I am not certain of my version. ... There is only one thing stronger than armies, and that is the power of an idea whose time has come. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS A HAMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE A NAIL" ... Maybe Ben can do better. Oxford says late 20th century. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _The Family Doctor Makes a Comeback_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=111202298&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1106203020&clientId=65882) By LOUISE SAUL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1979. p. NJ2 (1 page) : ... "There's an old saying that, when you were trained to use a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 07:35:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:35:05 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:58:07 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>"AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" >>... >>Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. [...] > >Or was it Martin Luther King? > >------ >Washington Post, Sep 21, 1958, p. E6 >[Review of _Stride Toward Freedom_ by Martin Luther King] >Violence by Negroes, he says, is impractical: "The old law of an eye for >an eye leaves everybody blind." >------ >New York Times, Jul 7, 1959, p. 30 >"Nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to people in the struggle >for human dignity," Dr. King said. "The old eye-for-an-eye philosophy ends >up leaving everybody blind." >------ > >King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in the 1958 >review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. According to this article (available on JSTOR), King cribbed the line from Harris Wofford, who was also studying Gandhian nonviolence: --------- "Composing Martin Luther King, Jr." by Keith D. Miller PMLA Vol. 105, No. 1 (Jan., 1990), pp. 70-82 [...] Several sentences of King's explication of nonviolence, including several quotations from Gandhi, stem from Harris Wofford's "Non-violence and the Law: The Law Needs Help." [...] Wofford: The old law of an eye-for-an-eye leaves everyone blind. ("Non-violence" 32) King: The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. (_Stride_ 213) [Citing: Wofford, Harris. "Non-violence and the Law: The Law Needs Help." Journal of Religious Thought 15 (Autumn-Winter 1957-58): 25-36. Rpt. in _Civil Disobedience: Theory and Practice_. Ed. Hugo Bedau. New York: Pegasus, 1969. 59-71.] --------- The article notes that Wofford had traveled to India to study nonviolence, so perhaps he'd heard the saying attributed to Gandhi there. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 07:48:10 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:48:10 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:31:13 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE >... >I don't know if this helps. Is it earlier or later than the feminist version? >... >... >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >... > _ Stevens Point Daily Journal _ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2lUtwWpTPNrLkRmdKtUtKqbDP+pMrf3HhkIF+CsZYmrz) >Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ >(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a >+bicycle+AND) >...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the >periodic.....been Able to roll out A pie crust WITHOUT the edges crAcking All the wAy.. >... >Pg. 6, col. 7: >The term graffiti no longer has a derogatory meaning at the University pf >Wisconsin-Stevens Point. (...) >... >"A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." >"War is the periodic failure of politics." >... This has come up on the alt.usage.english newsgroup. Quoting what I wrote: ---------- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/03488e6db3003d87 There's also "A man without *God* is like a fish without a bicycle." This version is remembered by a contributor to the Phrase Finder forum as a graffito c. 1961: http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/9/messages/150.html A New York Times article from Aug 20, 1975 ("Quick Time of Modern Life Takes Hold In a Village Isolated in Alaskan Tundra") mentions the same version on a wall of graffiti in Bethel, Alaska. (And see below.) > A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle OR > A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle > Sighted by a.u.e. participant on a T-shirt in 1973; as graffiti in 1976. > Attributed by some references to Gloria Steinem. > But believed by many feminists to be by civil rights lawyer Florynce R. > Kennedy. Steinem wrote a March 1973 article in MS Magazine about her > witticisms, "The Verbal Karate of Florynce R. Kennedy, Esq." Gloria Steinem gave credit to Irina Dunn in a letter to Time Magazine, according to a posting on the AWAD forum in October 2000: http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Board=miscellany&Number=5821 This news just in from last week's Time magazine: "In your note on my new and happy marital partnership with David Bale, you credit me with the witticism 'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.' In fact, Irina Dunn, a distinguished Australian educator, journalist and politician, coined the phrase back in 1970 when she was a student at the University of Sydney. She paraphrased the philosopher who said, "Man needs God like fish needs a bicycle." Dunn deserves credit for creating such a popular and durable spoof of the old idea that women need men more than vice versa." -Gloria Steinem More corroboration here: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3255/herstory.htm Irina Dunn has confirmed this story, in an e-mail of January 28, 2002: Yes, indeed, I am the one Gloria referred to. I was paraphrasing from a phrase I read in a philosophical text I was reading for my Honours year in English Literature and Language in 1970. It was "A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle". My inspiration arose from being involved in the renascent women's movement at the time, and from being a bit of a smart-arse. I scribbled the phrase on the backs of two toilet doors, would you believe, one at Sydney University where I was a student, and the other at Soren's Wine Bar at Woolloomooloo, a seedy suburb in south Sydney. The doors, I have to add, were already favoured graffiti sites. ---------- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 08:24:19 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:24:19 EST Subject: "Rich man's ice in summer, poor man's ice in winter" (1899) Message-ID: Last one tonight. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (pg. 630) has "early 20th century" for "The rich man has his ice in the summer and the poor man gets his in the winter." ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _MERCURY'S LONG DROP; One Degree Below Zero Recorded Yesterday. THE COLD WAVE SEEMS BROKEN Decided Rise in Temperature During the Afternoon, and a Further Moderation Is Predicted for To-day--Charitable Associations Kept Busy Relieving Distress, and Demand Will Be Even Heavier--Many Find Work Shoveling Away Snow. Merry Sleighing Parties. Busy Dispensing Charity. Brought Work for Many. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=281225292&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106207915&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 3, 1899. p. 3 (1 page): ... Mr. Dooley's theory of equalization of all things, by the process of which the rich man gets his ice in summer while the poor man gets his in winter, is being thoroughly appreciated by the poor of Washington during the present cold spell. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jan 20 10:48:40 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 05:48:40 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3DC9@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 10:52:40PM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Is the below a hard and fast rule? I've submitted some science fiction cites from > scanned fanzines that I would bet that no one at the OED _can_ look up on original > print sources. A scanned fanzine is good enough, for our purposes. A transcribed fanzine would be a problem, but we'll accept a scan as we would a page image or a photocopy or anything similar. Jesse Sheidlower OED From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 12:22:22 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:22:22 -0500 Subject: press defense (1945) Message-ID: OED2 has 1961 for the basketball sense of "press" and 1976 for "full-court press"... * press defense [1943 _Chicago Tribune_ 2 Jan. 14/4 There was little use for their pressing defense in the last quarter as the Trout-coached quintet opened up offensively to make a rout out of what had previously been a tightly contested game.] [1943 _Hammond Times_ (Indiana) 15 Mar. 9/1 Rochester, for some strange reason, came to Hammond unprepared to operate against a pressing defense. Although Lebanon has been "picking 'em up" all over the court through an entire season, the favored Rochester five acted as though it had never seen such tactics.] 1945 _Daily Register_ (Harrisburg, Ill.) 26 Feb. 5/4 They have been told of the "press defense" used by Champaign and they were given an education in the "block and fade" of the Taylorville Tornadoes last year. 1945 _Dixon Evening Telegraph_ (Ill.) 19 Mar. 5/3 Minus one key player, Champaign fought gamely in the championship tilt Saturday night at Champaign, but even its famous press defense couldn't stop Decatur's drive-in shots and rebounding monopoly. * full-court press [1947 _Post-Standard_ (Syracuse, NY) 16 Jan. 14/7 Niland cut the margin to one with another foul conversion and Canisius went into a full-court pressing defense.] [1948 _Iowa City Press Citizen_ 1 Mar. 12/2 Further Iowa hope centers on its full-court defensive press, something Michigan has not faced all season.] 1949 _Waterloo Daily Courier_ (Iowa) 16 Jan. 40/1 The Tigers tried a full-court press at the start of the second half, but for the most part it backfired as the GoHawks began to click with their fast break. 1950 _New York Times_ 8 Jan. S3/7 The Brooks packed too much height for Kings Point and put on an effective full-court press which puzzled the sailors throughout the initial half. * over-the-court press 1947 _Lima News_ (Ohio) 6 Mar. 13/2 New Knoxville led only 25-21 starting the final period but Kuck, Roger Settlage and Lee Kattman, pint-sized guard in the skyscraper Rangers' lineup, tossed in buckets from in close as New Knoxville broke up St. Rose's over-the-court press. 1948 _Lima News_ (Ohio) 25 Jan. 26/2 Coach Dick Bechtol switched his Jays to an over the court press after losing three games in succession and the Delphos club has gone great guns since. * all-court press 1948 _Post Standard_ (Syracuse, NY) 26 Feb. 12/5 Harried by Yale's all-court press during the first half and a sudden switch to the zone in the second, Columbia finally came from behind with 14 minutes to play. 1948 _New York Times_ 15 Dec. 50/1 From the eleven-minute mark until the last minute, when the all-court press of the desperate Blackbirds permitted two unguarded opportunities from point-blank range by the Cowboys, they took hardly a shot. * back-court press 1949 _Washington Post_ 6 Mar. III1/8 North Carolina threw a strangling back court press on George Washington and with it the Wolfpack squeezed out the Southern Conference basketball championship, 55-39, here tonight. 1950 _Washington Post_ 16 Feb. 17/5 Then the Hoyas invoked a back-court press, and Little Bob Makatura stole the ball four times to score field goals. * full-floor press 1950 _Chicago Tribune_ 29 Dec. 3-1/8 The Illini then went into a full floor press defense and, with Govedarica out on five personal fouls, De Paul started to crumble. 1951 _Ames Daily Tribune_ (Iowa) 22 Jan. 6/1 Two of the scrappiest Roland players were guards Halvorson and Hagen, but on each team both forwards and guards began defensive tactics beside the scoring attempts, which were almost equivalent to a full floor press in the second and fourth quarters. * half-court press 1953 _Waukesha Daily Freeman_ (Wisc.) 19 Dec. 7/5 A close, half-court press helped the Indians knot the count at 18-18 with 3:13 seconds remaining in the half. 1954 _New York Times_ 3 Jan. S3/1 Navy started a half-court press but committed three fouls, losing Capt. Ed Hogan in the process. --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 13:54:42 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:54:42 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) In-Reply-To: <31576.69.142.143.59.1106207290.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > >Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ > >"A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." The Yale Dictionary of Quotations has this back to 1958. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 14:01:09 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:01:09 -0500 Subject: "Idea whose time has come" (1919); "Hammer sees nail" (1979) In-Reply-To: <8d.1ec3b311.2f20b35c@aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM: > "WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS A HAMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE A NAIL" > ... > Maybe Ben can do better. Oxford says late 20th century. > > By LOUISE SAUL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Nov 25, > 1979. p. NJ2 (1 page) : > ... > "There's an old saying that, when you were trained to use a hammer, > everything begins to look like a nail." This is from Abraham Maslow, The Psychology of Science (1966). Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 14:09:52 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:09:52 -0500 Subject: To err is human, screwup requires computer (1969); Business like a car (1948) In-Reply-To: <156.48cdfdba.2f20a08c@aol.com> Message-ID: Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM: > "TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO REALLY FOUL THINGS UP REQUIRES A COMPUTER." > ... > _Newark Advocate _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx? img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2rewa1Rtu3mdWbrltY6gaY9MeCdzzNldC0IF+CsZYmrz) > Friday, October 03, > 1969 _Newark,_ > snap Great Northern Goat. TO ERR IS HUMAN. TO really foul it > takes > a.....dropped 9 rubber bAND inTO the office COMPUTER. Now.. Another great find. I had this in 1971. Fred Shapiro From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 20 14:19:00 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:19:00 -0500 Subject: Quotations and Sayings In-Reply-To: <1106230192.41efbbb0c234e@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Much of the material posted last night by Barry, Sam, and Ben, related to quotations and sayings, was quite brilliant. For selfish reasons, I'd like to encourage this trend toward quotational postings on this list, unless the linguists feel that such a trend is too far out of scope for the list. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:27:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:27:39 -0800 Subject: Unusual names for cutlery Message-ID: John, I've been searching eBay for years for a copy of "The Junior Woodchucks' Handbook." My first choice for grad school was Duckburg University, but there was a physical. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess there's something about that 1313 combination. The Munsters, of course, lived at 1313 Mockingbird Lane. Were there any other 1313 addresses? It's not quite the same, but Donald Duck's license plate, in the comic books, was 313. This was back in the days when license plate numbers were shorter. Our license plate, when I was a boy, was 920. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Unusual names for cutlery Mr. Chester Riley (William Bendix) and family resided at 1313 Blue View Terrace, an address worthy of Dickens. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 20 14:33:34 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:33:34 -0500 Subject: Pitfalls of Online Antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2005, at 21:39, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Ultimately there is a backup to our errors stemming from the > bibliographic weaknesses of online tools, namely the fact that the OED > verifies quotations from original print sources. Of course, this list demonstrates another backup: colleagues sharing their work, and not just antedatings. We see error-proofing happen on the list as a matter of course. I think more than a few ideas ultimately used for papers and presentations (not to mention news articles, web sites, books, etc.) have been discussed here to the benefit of all. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:35:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:35:02 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: Doug, this is my first encounter with "copathetic." Whatever its significance, the occurrence of this form is so far unique. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it is possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > /T/, I think. >From N'archive: ---------- _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: > ---------- IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". IMHO the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some sort of a shibboleth. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:39:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:39:18 -0800 Subject: crotch rocket Message-ID: "Crotch rocket" is in HDAS from early-mid '70s. JL Dave Hause wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Hause Subject: Re: crotch rocket ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know I've heard it since the mid 80s - typically light weight, high powered Japanese motorcycles. I think the type model was the Kawasaki 1000cc three cylinder two stroke, maybe called the Z-3 from the mid 70s. The Kawasaki ZX-10, in the late 80s, with about 425 lbs dry weight, >100 hp, out-of-the-box top speed of 175 mph, was typical. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" This reminds me of something that I heard from one of my students recently. When I asked her about her weekend, she went on and on about riding a "crotch rocket." I was noticeably surprised that she would speak so openly and gleefully of this with her teacher and wasn't sure if she was saying this just to, if you'll pardon the expression, get a rise out of me. Turns out, a 'crotch rocket' is a kind of motorcycle. Of course, everyone knows this except for me. Who would have known?!! Fritz--who just isn't 'with it' --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:45:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:45:58 -0800 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." The "God" version is textually a bit older, but I saw the feminist version on a poster in 1975 or '76. Does it have a known author? Might both versions stem from something earlier? JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE ... I don't know if this helps. Is it earlier or later than the feminist version? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Stevens Point Daily Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2lUtwWpTPNrLkRmdKtUtKqbDP+pMrf3HhkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, July 21, 1973 _Stevens Point,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a +bicycle+AND) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....been Able to roll out A pie crust WITHOUT the edges crAcking All the wAy.. ... Pg. 6, col. 7: The term graffiti no longer has a derogatory meaning at the University pf Wisconsin-Stevens Point. (...) ... "A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle." "War is the periodic failure of politics." ... _Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2nEL5Biq1wj8cgvo6I+NX31fF16a+mADDUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 22, 1973 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fish+without+a+bicycle+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fish+without+a+bicycle+AN D) ...mAn WITHOUT A God is like A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE. is the periodic.....cruciAl AreAs. Controls cAn'toperAte WITHOUT quick, efficient Access to dAtA.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" ... Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Forgiving: A Kind Of Freedom_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=118637351&SrchMode=1&sid=18&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110 6201822&clientId=65882) Glenn Collins. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 27, 1982. p. B10 (1 page) ... Gandhi's message is unequivocal: "If everyone took an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind." ... _'Gandhi': Introduction To a Moral Teacher_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=126681702&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1106201249&clientId=65882) Colman McCarthy. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 2, 1983. p. K2 (1 page) ... Attenborough's film did what it could to convey the breadth of what Gandhi called _ahimsa_, organized and determined nonviolence. The line is uttered twice. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "CLOSE YOUR EYES AND THINK OF ENGLAND" ... The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations should have nailed this, but gives it as an anonymous proverb. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Broadway Gazette_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=291212242&SrchMode=1&sid=20&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106202073&clie ntId=65882) LEONARD LYONS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 18, 1943. p. 10 (1 page) ... ROMANCE DEPT>: Stanley Baldwin's son tells this story of the day his sister went out with a young man who wanted to marry her. She asked her mother for advice, in case the young man should want to kiss her..."Do what I did," said her mother, reminiscing of the beginning of her romance with the man who was to become Prime Minister. "Just close your eyes and think of England." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 14:51:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:51:23 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's good to get these later examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it > is > possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of > unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a > fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" > perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. > > "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of > "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > > /T/, I > think. But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever heard. A. And you know what was in it? B. Naw. What was in it? A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! -Wilson Gray > > From N'archive: > > ---------- > > _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: > > <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I think > they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look > crowded.">> > > ---------- > > IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". > IMHO > the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some > sort > of a shibboleth. > > -- Doug Wilson > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From martha at FUNWORDS.COM Thu Jan 20 15:23:38 2005 From: martha at FUNWORDS.COM (Martha Barnette) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0500 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere denoting "awkward glances or sexually ambiguous dialogue between guys" (short for "Homoeroticism Yay!"), usually exclaimed while watching TV programs featuring romantic tension between male characters. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827282/site/newsweek/ From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 15:57:15 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:57:15 -0600 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: > King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in > the 1958 review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. King, from his days as a grad student onward, had a problem with proper attribution: http://chem-gharbison.unl.edu/mlk/plagiarism.html From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Thu Jan 20 16:26:12 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:26:12 EST Subject: the naked LUNCH of scientific etymologists Message-ID: Naked Hunch on Lunch: Scientific Etymology like Scientific Racism Could Only Have Been Dreamed Up at Oxford Lunch Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-hesh, the ?fh" ="h" slender ?s? = ?sh?) A feast of meat (Dineen, p. 675) L?n, g. l?in, pl. id., l?nta, l?inte, m., Food, meats, provisions, supplies, stores; diet, dinner. ?The Gael of old, like the other ancient nations, had but one meal or diet daily ? the l?n.? (Dwelly, p. 598). Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-esh), a feast of meat, is found in an Irish aisling or ?dream poem,? Aisling Meic Conglinne, edited by Kuno Meyer in 1892. (Dineen, p. xxiii) Luncheon Lo/in-fheis ?n (Pron. lowneshan) A noble, ?royal? feast of meat and dainties. ?n, adj : noble. Oxford's Naked Hunch on the Irish and Gaelic "Lunch" The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology gives the origin of ?lunch? and ? luncheon? as first appearing ?towards the end of the 16th century in the sense of a ?thick piece, hunch, hunk; perhaps ? Spanish lonja slice, the longer form being probably an extension on the analogy of punch and puncheon, trunch and truncheon. The sense ?slight repast between morning meals? appears XVIIth C., for luncheon, and first in form lunchin?(g); the present use of lunch (XIX) is a shortening of this whence lunch vb. (p. 540) (?) Barnhart, the American etymologists, also traces the word luncheon to a word meaning a ?thick piece, or hunk,? claiming its source in a North English dialect in the 17th century. Unfortunately neither etymological dictionaries provide any citations for this source. Oxford goes with a Spanish word lonja, for a slice, while Barnhart connects lunch to Proto-Germanic ?skankon? and Old English ?scanca,? meaning a hollow bone used to draw booze out of a cask. So from lunch to hunk to hollow bone. A skankon scientific etymology. This "scientific" etymology of Lunch really has to be read in full to be believed. Luncheon, n. 1580 luncheon a thick piece, hunk; later, a light meal (lunching before 1652 and luncheon, 1706). The semantic development was probably influenced by North English lunch hunk of bread or cheese; the morphological development may have been by alteration of dialectical Nuncheon light meal, developed from Middle English nonechenche, nonschench (1342), a compound of none NOON + schench drink, from Old English scenc, from scencan pour out. Old English scencan is cognate with Old Frisian skenka pour out, Old saxon, skenkian, Middle Dutch scencen (Modern Dutch schenken), and Old High German skenken (modern German einschenken), from Proto-Germanic *skankjanan draw off (liquor), formed from *skankon shinbone, SHANK (in Old English scanca), ? a hollow bone...and hence a pipe, a pipe thrust into a cask to tap it.? (W.W. Skeat). (Barnhart, p. 615) Lunch, n. 1829, shortened form of luncheon. -V. eat lunch. 1823 in Issac Disraeli?s Curiousities of Literature (no pg citation, Ed. note); from the noun. though of preceding date. ?lunchroom n. (1830, American English) ?lunchtime n., (1859, in George Eliot?s Letters). Lunch Lo/in-fheis (pron. lownesh: ?f? is silent; slender ?s? =- ?sh?,) Feast of meat, food, and dainties. Free loin-fheis (lunch). Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of Clifornia San Francisco 1.19.05 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 16:48:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:48:00 -0800 Subject: "situation" Message-ID: "Situation" is frequently used rather evasively or euphemistically to mean "a problematic situation; problem." The earliest example I have encountered is in the film, "Best Foot Forward" (1943), screenplay by Irving Brecher, Fred F. Finklehoffe, and John Cecil Holm: "Don't they have girls here [at a military academy]?" "No. They say it creates situations." The film is based on a play by Holm, so the usage may appear there as well. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 20 17:08:12 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:08:12 -0500 Subject: unfortunate editorial choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >from the 1/19/05 Palo Alto Daily News, p. 1 headline > Prominent > local hit by > train, dies > >the sad story of "Robert Pringle, a 54-year-old father of three and >member of one of the Peninsula's most recognized families", who died >after being struck by a Caltrain in Menlo Park. the p. 1 story says: >"The coroner has not ruled on the cause of death." > >the jump from p. 1 to the continuation on p. 58 is CALTRAIN. > >alas, the pickup on p. 58 is SUICIDE. a precipitous judgment, an >unfortunate editorial choice, though likely to be accurate. > >well, we have a suicide a month, roughly, on the train line that runs >south from san francisco, north from san jose, just two blocks from my >house. level grade crossings, so you can just walk out onto the line >and face your death as you want to. distraught teenagers, the down and >out, the lonely elderly slipping uncontrollably into alzheimer's, >people of all ages and stations who are depressed, often without their >friends and families having any sense of the depth of their despair. >some of them lie down on the tracks or curl into a ball, so as not to >be so visible. some of them face the oncoming train right on, standing >up. > >it's hell on the engineers who drive the trains. > >arnold ~~~~~~~~~~ An old family friend, an historian at Stanford who lived in Menlo Park, met his death in just this manner, perhaps at the same level crossing, in 1953 or 54. I never heard a breath of suspicion that it was suicide. He was totally deaf & the accident was attributed to that. A. Murie p.s. in another unfortunate editorial choice, I learned of this, in Berkeley, listening to the radio news, which declared that a man, identified as so & so, was "decapitated by a passing train" while taking his daily walk, &c. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 20 20:06:35 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:06:35 -0500 Subject: "Rich man's ice in summer, poor man's ice in winter" (1899) Message-ID: "Mr. Dooley" will be the character in Finley Peter Dunne's wonderful sketches. I have also seen this thought attributed to Bat Masterson, who, after his gunfighting days, became a sports-writer on a NYC newspaper. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Thursday, January 20, 2005 3:24 am Subject: "Rich man's ice in summer, poor man's ice in winter" (1899) > Last one tonight. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (pg. 630) > has "early > 20th century" for "The rich man has his ice in the summer and the > poor man > gets his in the winter." > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _MERCURY'S LONG DROP; One Degree Below Zero Recorded Yesterday. > THE COLD > WAVE SEEMS BROKEN Decided Rise in Temperature During the > Afternoon, and a > Further Moderation Is Predicted for To-day--Charitable > Associations Kept Busy > Relieving Distress, and Demand Will Be Even Heavier--Many Find > Work Shoveling Away > Snow. Merry Sleighing Parties. Busy Dispensing Charity. Brought > Work for > Many. _ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? index=0&did=281225292&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 09&VName=HNP&TS=1106207915&clientId=65882) > The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 3, 1899. > p. 3 (1 > page): > ... > Mr. Dooley's theory of equalization of all things, by the process > of which > the rich man gets his ice in summer while the poor man gets his in > winter, is > being thoroughly appreciated by the poor of Washington during the > present cold > spell. > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 20:43:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:43:36 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." -Wilson Gray On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's > good to get these later > examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) > > Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in > The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >> is >> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" >> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >> >> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >> /T/, I >> think. > > But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or > to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In > My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some > other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to > have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard > "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country > talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. > It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever > heard. > > A. And you know what was in it? > B. Naw. What was in it? > A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! > > -Wilson Gray > > >> >> From N'archive: >> >> ---------- >> >> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >> >> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >> think >> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >> crowded.">> >> >> ---------- >> >> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >> IMHO >> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >> sort >> of a shibboleth. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 20 20:50:02 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:50:02 -0800 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: i posted Martha Barnette's note on "HoYay!" to the newsgroup soc.motss, because of its obvious motss-relevance (i.e., relevance to lgbt people), and almost immediately there came this response: Begin forwarded message: > From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) > Newsgroups: soc.motss > Subject: Re: HoYay! > Date: 20 Jan 2005 12:41:50 -0600 > > In article , > Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> Subject: HoYay! >> >> Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere > > I found the origin of "HoYay". > > - from the _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ episode "Lie to Me" > (season 2, episode 7): > Xander: Are you probably noticing a theme here? > Willow: As in 'Vampires, yay?' > > - > (sometime since Feb 2004 rendered unaccessable without login *sob*): > "'Homoeroticism, Yay?' was a thread originated by Jennifer Godwin > (jengod) on the Mighty Big TV (now Television without Pity) Angel > message boards sometime during that show's first season (1999-2000)" > This page credits the BtVS exchange as the inspiration. > > - : > "Cut to spring 2001. ... summer reruns were looming. Whatever were > we fans to do? I, who was going by the username whofleck at the > time, posted something like, 'We should have a Camp HoYay for the > summer.' I can't find the exact post because MBTV gakked their > boards unannounced in the fall of 2001." > > - The first use of the phrase "Homoeroticism Yay" on Usenet was in > alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer.creative, alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, alt.tv.angel, > originated by Kate Bolin, pointing to > , on 15 February 2001, > "takes it name from the Mighty Big TV Angel thread started by > JenGod. ... We love big gay TV." > > - The first use of "HoYay" on Usenet (per Google Groups) was Mike > Zeares, in alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, 2001-06-28 05:24:35 PST. > > I posted a little more info (expanded quotations and definitions) in > > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:25:35 -0500 (EST) > From: > Message-Id: <200402070025.i170PZI29327 at panix3.panix.com> > X-Also-Posted-To: alt.tv.angel > Subject: Re: The HoYay Fight Scene (was Re: Did anyone else liked > the fight scene? ** POSSIBLE SPOILERS**) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 20:50:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:50:45 -0500 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0500, Martha Barnette wrote: >Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere denoting "awkward >glances or sexually ambiguous dialogue between guys" (short for >"Homoeroticism Yay!"), usually exclaimed while watching TV programs >featuring romantic tension between male characters. > >http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827282/site/newsweek/ Well, it's a bit inaccurate for Newsweek to say the term is from "the blogosphere", since it originated in the fan forums for the TV show "Angel" on the website Mighty Big TV (now called Television Without Pity). (Or perhaps "blogosphere" is now being extended beyond blogs to any online chatter?) Sadly, MBTV/TWoP regularly prunes the forum archives, so the original use of "HoYay!" may be lost in the mists of cyberspace. The earliest salvageable cites appear to be from Spring 2001. Tim McDaniel did some sleuthing: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.tv.angel/msg/e859caac95f5c5b3 More MBTV/TWoP terminology listed here: http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/faq.cgi?show=0&q=1766 Some of their other terms have become popular on the Net, e.g.: ---- Anvil/anvilicious: Used to indicate obvious or heavy-handed writing that has no regard for the viewer's intelligence, thus bludgeoning them over the head with parallels et al. in the manner of Wile E. Coyote and his Acme Brand anvils ---- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 20 21:17:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:17:09 -0500 Subject: "Fish without bicycle"(1973); Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982); Eyes/England(1943) Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:57:15 -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> King was a student of Gandhi, of course (this is mentioned in >> the 1958 review), but I don't know if he attributed the quote to him. > >King, from his days as a grad student onward, had a problem with proper >attribution: > >http://chem-gharbison.unl.edu/mlk/plagiarism.html The article that I cited upthread ("Composing Martin Luther King, Jr." by Keith D. Miller, _PMLA_ Vol. 105, No. 1 (Jan. 1990), pp. 70-82), gives many examples of King's, uh, liberal attribution policy. The "eye for an eye" quote, as I mentioned, was borrowed from Harris Wofford (who may have heard it attributed to Gandhi). The quote appeared (with other passages lifted from Wofford's 1957 lecture "Non-violence and the Law") in King's _Stride toward Freedom_, published in September 1958. Miller writes in a footnote: ----- Although _Stride_ does not mention any coauthors, Wofford apparently worked as a ghostwriter on portions of the manuscript. He states that he cannot recall whether he or King "picked something up from my [earlier] work" and inserted it in _Stride_ (Interview). King's practice of borrowing discourse inclines one to believe that King himself borrowed material from Wofford's lecture. Wofford comments that he would be "complimented" if that was the case (Interview). ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 21:47:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:47:34 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: I have friend from Armuchee, Ga., who observes that it is univerally pronounced "ArMURchee" by the locals. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." -Wilson Gray On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's > good to get these later > examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) > > Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in > The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >> is >> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + "sympathetic" >> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >> >> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >> /T/, I >> think. > > But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or > to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In > My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some > other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to > have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard > "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country > talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. > It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever > heard. > > A. And you know what was in it? > B. Naw. What was in it? > A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! > > -Wilson Gray > > >> >> From N'archive: >> >> ---------- >> >> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >> >> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >> think >> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >> crowded.">> >> >> ---------- >> >> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >> IMHO >> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >> sort >> of a shibboleth. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 22:40:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:40:34 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can tell that you're the responsible party, etc." Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of ownership, etc.) on it." In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 23:28:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:28:15 -0800 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: The stink/The stank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can tell that you're the responsible party, etc." Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of ownership, etc.) on it." In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 20 23:35:43 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:35:43 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have friend from Armuchee, Ga., who observes that it is univerally > pronounced "ArMURchee" by the locals. > > JL Damn! I have a phonological analysis of this phenomenon that fails, unless the locals also replace spelled -rC with pronounced -IC in at least some cases. My mother never says "murch." Rather, she says [m^IC]. Well, even if my analysis fails, it's never gotten beyond the thought-experiment stage, in any case. I haven't written a single word. -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've > always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, > or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds > like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its > obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. > > Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to > everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih > say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be > used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than > "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. > My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman > himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces > "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by > Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of > the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's >> good to get these later >> examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) >> >> Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in >> The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: copacetic? >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >>> is >>> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >>> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >>> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + >>> "sympathetic" >>> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >>> >>> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>> /T/, I >>> think. >> >> But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur >> or >> to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >> My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some >> other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to >> have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard >> "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country >> talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. >> It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever >> heard. >> >> A. And you know what was in it? >> B. Naw. What was in it? >> A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >>> >>> From N'archive: >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >>> >>> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >>> think >>> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >>> crowded.">> >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >>> IMHO >>> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >>> sort >>> of a shibboleth. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 20 23:46:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:46:11 -0800 Subject: copacetic? Message-ID: My friend is now a high-school English teacher and she's always said "much." It may be that "Armuchee" (near Rome, Ga.) originally had a vowel like that in "book" and "look"; maybe that was somehow conducive to an intrusive "r." Dunno, as usual. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: copacetic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 20, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I have friend from Armuchee, Ga., who observes that it is univerally > pronounced "ArMURchee" by the locals. > > JL Damn! I have a phonological analysis of this phenomenon that fails, unless the locals also replace spelled -rC with pronounced -IC in at least some cases. My mother never says "murch." Rather, she says [m^IC]. Well, even if my analysis fails, it's never gotten beyond the thought-experiment stage, in any case. I haven't written a single word. -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > FWIW - not much, admittedly, since there's no documentation - I've > always had the feeling that "bullco(r)n" is a kind of euphemism for, > or, perhaps, merely a mishearing of, "bullcome," This latter sounds > like "bullkahm," just as "come," used in both its standard and its > obscene meanings, sounds like "kahm" to the untutored Northern ear. > > Since both "bullshit" and the use of "con" as a verb are known to > everyday people, such a person, hearing fresh-off-the-bus Cudn Willih > say "Bullkahm!" in precisely those places in which "Bullshit!" would be > used, overcorrects it to "bullcon," which makes more sense than > "bullcalm" does. And r-insertion is nih 'bout as common as r-deletion. > My mother pronounces "George" as "Jawidge," just as ol' George Foreman > himself, likewise a native of Marshall, Texas, does. But she pronounces > "judge" as "jurge." I've even heard "much" pronounced as "murch" by > Marshallites: Do you know what Besame Mucho (title of a Top-40 song of > the '40's) mean? It mean "kiss me murch." > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> "Bullco(r)n" dates from 1890s in print. See HDAS. Ho hum. (But it's >> good to get these later >> examples: "bullcome" is a new one.) >> >> Is anybody familiar with "bullfuck," meaning gravy? It's attested in >> The American Thesaurus of Slang in 1942 (amazingly!). >> >> JL >> >> Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: copacetic? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: copacetic? >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> I don't believe the origin of "copasetic" is established, but IMHO it >>> is >>> possible that the original form was "copathetic". This is still is of >>> unknown origin but it has a less opaque form ... one could imagine a >>> fanciful coinage based on "congenial" (or even "cozy") + >>> "sympathetic" >>> perhaps ("a real copathetic place"), for example. >>> >>> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>> /T/, I >>> think. >> >> But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur >> or >> to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >> My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? What are some >> other examples of this change? And it's not unknown for slang terms to >> have local variants. In East Texas, we said "bullcome." I've heard >> "bullcorn" in L.A., though this form is low-rated as being "country >> talk." I first heard a usage close to the "standard" one in St. Louis. >> It was in the punch line of the first shaggy-dog story that I ever >> heard. >> >> A. And you know what was in it? >> B. Naw. What was in it? >> A. All this bull I'm shittin' you! Har! Har! Har! >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >>> >>> From N'archive: >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln NE), 3 Dec. 1919: p. 6, col. 3: >>> >>> <> becomingness of rubber-tired spectacles, "Yas'm," said Mandy, "I >>> think >>> they's becoming 'cep I does think they makes a pusson's face look >>> crowded.">> >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> IMHO this "copathetic" is likely to be the same word as "copasetic". >>> IMHO >>> the context suggests that "copathetic" may have been considered some >>> sort >>> of a shibboleth. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 20 23:50:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:50:51 -0600 Subject: HoYay! Message-ID: Also "pedeconferencing", the practice of having discussions while walking around, mostly in reference to "West Wing". I remember during its first or second season, MAD-TV did a pretty good parody of the practice (although it may not yet have been named). > > Some of their other terms have become popular on the Net, e.g.: > ---- > Anvil/anvilicious: Used to indicate obvious or heavy-handed > writing that has no regard for the viewer's intelligence, > thus bludgeoning them over the head with parallels et al. in > the manner of Wile E. Coyote and his Acme Brand anvils > ---- > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 21 00:12:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:12:56 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: <20050120143502.18637.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Doug, this is my first encounter with "copathetic." Whatever its >significance, the occurrence of this form is so far unique. It's the only example know of from 1919. But then there are not many examples of "copasetic" (any spelling) that early either. Google "copathetic" and you'll find more recent examples, some of which are clearly synonymous with "copacetic" ... presumably an error for it ... or has the form with "th" had a below-the-radar parallel existence all along? I think there's an example of "copasthetic" in HDAS. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 21 00:27:16 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:27:16 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>"Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>"copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>/T/, I >>think. > >But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur or >to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? It doesn't occur very often, but I find it more likely than the opposite one, all else equal. And in this case I find it hard to believe that the two words are independent and unrelated. Of course one can also speculate that /s/ > /T/ occurred here under influence from "sympathetic", "apathetic", etc. All just speculation so far! -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 01:09:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:09:15 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it difficult or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. Here's a good quote from http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058?q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D10%26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af31e83cb3058 (2000) "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration of Independence?" Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody else notice this? JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jan 21 02:08:09 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:08:09 -0500 Subject: another sense for gov't work Message-ID: During WW2 my father worked nights as an engraver for Sperry Gyroscope (afterwards acquired by Remington Rand and renamed Sperry-Rand) and he used "gov't work" to mean "private jobs done for friends" such as nameplates; it was useful as a label because a supervisor would never query a worker who said he was doing "gov't work." ________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:08:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:08:42 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar about it at all. -Wilson On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." > > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of > ownership, etc.) on it." > > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. > > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, > both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is > used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In > other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, > "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer > reading of the data may yield other meanings. > > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:13:28 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:13:28 -0600 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 p.m.: [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody else notice this? ******** Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. Gerald Cohen From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:16:01 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:16:01 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: copacetic? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> "Copathetic" can be found just about as early as any spelling of >>> "copasetic" AFAIK. Phonetically /T/ > /s/ is more likely than /s/ > >>> /T/, I >>> think. >> >> But is this a sound change that one could reasonably expect to occur >> or >> to have occurred in English, even if, e.g. Robert Johnson's "Stones In >> My Passway" is accepted as derived from "... Pathway"? > > It doesn't occur very often, but I find it more likely than the > opposite > one, all else equal. And in this case I find it hard to believe that > the > two words are independent and unrelated. > > Of course one can also speculate that /s/ > /T/ occurred here under > influence from "sympathetic", "apathetic", etc. > > All just speculation so far! > > -- Doug Wilson > Sigh! Ain't it the stone truth? On the other hand, what would we do for mental recreation, if we already knew everything? -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 21 02:17:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:17:56 -0500 Subject: another sense for gov't work In-Reply-To: <009201c4ff5e$0f5f5090$92b99b3f@chaos> Message-ID: >During WW2 my father worked nights as an engraver for Sperry Gyroscope >(afterwards acquired by Remington Rand and renamed Sperry-Rand) and he used >"gov't work" to mean "private jobs done for friends" such as nameplates; it >was useful as a label because a supervisor would never query a worker who >said he was doing "gov't work." I heard something like this occasionally on the job in the 1960's, usually in the form "a government job": "he's working on a government job" meant "he's engaged in a personal project [on company time, probably using company resources]". Of course no such thing was said to the supervisor, who knew very well what a "government job" was. -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:24:36 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:24:36 -0600 Subject: Quotations and Sayings--(Yes, continue) Message-ID: Original message from Fred Shapiro, Jan. 20, 2005, 8:19 a.m.: > Much of the material posted last night by Barry, Sam, and Ben,related to quotations and sayings, was quite brilliant. For selfish reasons, I'd like to encourage this trend toward quotational postings on this list, > unless the linguists feel that such a trend is too far out of scope for the list. > ************ FWIW, I support those postings, which are so beneficial to Fred in the preparation of his magnum opus and which are of general interest to many other members of our list. Expressions and sayings are a part of language, so they fall within the pale. Gerald Cohen (linguist) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Jan 21 02:36:39 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:36:39 -0600 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just 170 miles south of you, in Ar., we hear "ideers" > >Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), >and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. > >Gerald Cohen > > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:37:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:37:07 -0500 Subject: copacetic? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050120190618.02f80690@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0500 1/20/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Doug, this is my first encounter with "copathetic." Whatever its >>significance, the occurrence of this form is so far unique. > >It's the only example know of from 1919. But then there are not many >examples of "copasetic" (any spelling) that early either. > >Google "copathetic" and you'll find more recent examples, some of which are >clearly synonymous with "copacetic" ... presumably an error for it ... or >has the form with "th" had a below-the-radar parallel existence all along? > >I think there's an example of "copasthetic" in HDAS. Yup, from 1930: "I had to sock him in the jaw, but he'll be copasthetic." There are also several examples of "copasetty" from the 1920s (or copesettee, or copsetty), and none of "copathetty", for what that's worth. One of the HDAS cites is a quote from a John O'Hara letter, opining that "'Copacetic' is a Harlem and gangster corruption of an Intalian word...In American it means all right" (1934). So I guess that's one of the trial balloons the negative etymology was intended to shoot down. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:40:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:40:29 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it difficult > or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." > They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. > > Here's a good quote from > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ > 656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? > q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D10% > 26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af31 > e83cb3058 (2000) > > "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of > Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration > of Independence?" > > Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat > ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. > > The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody > else notice this? > > JL I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way because, for him, that way of speaking is the right was to speak. -Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:52:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:52:57 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:40 PM -0500 1/20/05, Wilson Gray wrote: > >I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my >pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >because, for him, that way of speaking is the right was to speak. Indeed. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague today, an Australian whose Historical Linguistics students kept mishearing her pronunciation of _drawer_ ("The readings are in the course drawer") as _draw_ until she finally wrote it on the blackboard. Her pronunciation is indeed r-less, but clearly bisyllabic--unlike that of many of my fellow N'Yawkers, who do indeed have homonyms for the two words (e.g. "in the draw"). I guess those final schwas must be hard to hear (for those who don't have them in their own speech), but she was somewhat put out. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 02:52:54 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:52:54 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:13 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 > p.m.: > [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for > "idea." Anybody else notice this? > > ******** > > Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, > Missouri), > and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were > looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. > That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. > > Gerald Cohen > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. -Wilson Gray From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:08:53 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:08:53 -0500 Subject: Who's your daddy? Message-ID: Seen on a campus poster today: "Who's Your Daddy? The Meaning of Parenthood"--a lecture by ----, professor of philosophy, ---. The latest on the inspirational talk circuit, I guess. From jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG Fri Jan 21 03:06:42 2005 From: jpvillan at SEAPREP.ORG (JP Villanueva) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:06:42 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: Lah-berry. Pungkin. Sammich. Life is more interesting down here in the tube! >>> Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. -Wilson Gray --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 02:57:38 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:57:38 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:40 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Idea/ideal >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it difficult >>or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." >>They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. >> >>Here's a good quote from >>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ >>656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? >>q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D10% >>26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af31 >>e83cb3058 (2000) >> >>"John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of >>Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration >>of Independence?" >> >>Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat >>ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. >> >>The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody >>else notice this? >> >>JL > >I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my >pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. > >-Wilson >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is common in the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students do it all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since they very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I think) by her teacher. She never got over it. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:04:00 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:04:00 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <5FE64DC4-6B51-11D9-8D53-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: A subdialect? Ah thank not. At 09:08 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote from Hank >should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not getting your point. I >could say "it stanks," if that fitted in with what the people around me >said and I didn't want to draw attention to myself by speaking a >different subdialect. But the people around me use "stinks" and so do >I. So, in what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I once had a >chat with an Englishman who was unable to pronounce "Wanda" in >isolation so that it could be distinguished from "wander" spoken in >isolation. Or do you mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the >extent that, in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or >"it stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and "stank" fall >together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just ordinary English speech, >with nothing special or peculiar about it at all. > >-Wilson > >On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >>Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >> >>JL >> >>Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: The stink/The stank >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >>cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the >>stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years >>since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody can >>tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >> >>Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >>Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put >>yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of >>ownership, etc.) on it." >> >>In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >> >>So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >>spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the spelling, >>both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is >>used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In >>other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the skinny," >>leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other cases, >>"put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A closer >>reading of the data may yield other meanings. >> >>IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >>whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:15:12 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:15:12 -0800 Subject: HoYay! In-Reply-To: <44122.69.142.143.59.1106254245.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0500, Martha Barnette > > wrote: > >> Newsweek reports this expression from the blogosphere denoting >> "awkward >> glances or sexually ambiguous dialogue between guys" (short for >> "Homoeroticism Yay!"), usually exclaimed while watching TV programs >> featuring romantic tension between male characters. >> >> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827282/site/newsweek/ > > Well, it's a bit inaccurate for Newsweek to say the term is from "the > blogosphere", since it originated in the fan forums for the TV show > "Angel" on the website Mighty Big TV (now called Television Without > Pity). > (Or perhaps "blogosphere" is now being extended beyond blogs to any > online chatter?) ben and i cited tim mcdaniel at pretty much the same time. meanwhile, about "blogosphere"... for many years i've had trouble explaining to people the difference between mailing lists (like this one) and newsgroups (like sci.lang) and websites and IRC. now blogs are added to the (indistinguishable) mix: it's all web stuff. i suppose the confounding was inevitable. like ben says, online chatter. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:29:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:29:18 -0800 Subject: unfortunate editorial choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:08 AM, sagehen wrote: >> from the 1/19/05 Palo Alto Daily News, p. 1 headline >> Prominent >> local hit by >> train, dies... > ~~~~~~~~~~ > An old family friend, an historian at Stanford who lived in Menlo > Park, met > his death in just this manner, perhaps at the same level crossing, in > 1953 > or 54. I never heard a breath of suspicion that it was suicide. He > was > totally deaf & the accident was attributed to that. yes, we have these non-suicide deaths too, especially at grade crossings with significant pedestrian traffic. there are three of these within walking distance (indeed, routes i often do walk) of my house. in some cases, there's just no way to tell what happened. today's PADN is being more cautious about robert pringle's death, in any case. arnold From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 03:32:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:32:03 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Evidentiary" In-Reply-To: <2431.69.142.143.59.1106255829.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: Another Bentham coinage. evidentiary (OED 1810) 1802 Jeremy Bentham _Traites de legislation civile et penale : ublies en francois par Et. Dumont ... d'apres les manuscrits confies par l'auteur_ 118 (Making of Modern Law) Evidentiary offenses. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 04:58:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:58:13 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:06 PM, JP Villanueva wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: JP Villanueva > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Lah-berry. Pungkin. Sammich. Life is more interesting down here in > the tube! Sammich?! WTF! I much prefer to have a sangwich. I know that no less a light than Richard Pryor is a sammich man. Nevertheless, I gotta go with the dialect of my birthplace and have a sangwich. But, WRT the other lexical items, I gotta give you your props. You're the man. -Wilson Gray > > >>>> > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, > but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid > that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. > > -Wilson Gray > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 06:02:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:02:42 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$5slqjs@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:57 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 09:40 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Idea/ideal >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it >>> difficult >>> or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." >>> They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. >>> >>> Here's a good quote from >>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ >>> 656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? >>> q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D1 >>> 0% >>> 26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af >>> 31 >>> e83cb3058 (2000) >>> >>> "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of >>> Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration >>> of Independence?" >>> >>> Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat >>> ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. >>> >>> The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody >>> else notice this? >>> >>> JL >> >> I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >> upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >> suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and >> my >> pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >> mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >> occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >> when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >> while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >> because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >> because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. >> >> -Wilson > > > Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is > common in > the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students > do it > all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant > pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since > they > very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply > spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled > "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I > think) by > her teacher. She never got over it. > Now that you mention it, I can recall also saying "crawl" for "craw," etc. Are you familiar with "rules" such as the one that food that has fallen onto floor can be eaten, if it's picked up within n-number of seconds? In my family, we just picked up the food and ate it, ritually commenting that "a little grit is good for your crawl." And, according to Crystal et al., East Texas is in the South, WRT dialect. Your student has my sympathy. When I was in grade school, Harvey suggested that we follow Lee, surnamed Lanier, around the schoolyard, chanting, "Lanier is a Frenchy name." It took only a couple of minutes of this to reduce Lee to tears. And he wasn't a crybaby. If being teased by peers can make a person cry, I can imagine what it must have felt like to be put down by a teacher. -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 06:09:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:09:21 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$5slqk6@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:04 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > A subdialect? Ah thank not. Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into a defensive posture. -Wilson > > At 09:08 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote from Hank >> should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not getting your point. I >> could say "it stanks," if that fitted in with what the people around >> me >> said and I didn't want to draw attention to myself by speaking a >> different subdialect. But the people around me use "stinks" and so do >> I. So, in what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >> It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I once had >> a >> chat with an Englishman who was unable to pronounce "Wanda" in >> isolation so that it could be distinguished from "wander" spoken in >> isolation. Or do you mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the >> extent that, in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or >> "it stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >> But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and "stank" >> fall >> together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just ordinary English >> speech, >> with nothing special or peculiar about it at all. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >>> Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: The stink/The stank >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >>> cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, "You got the >>> stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about sixty years >>> since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, "everybody >>> can >>> tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >>> >>> Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >>> Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go 'hayid. Put >>> yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put your mark (of >>> ownership, etc.) on it." >>> >>> In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >>> >>> So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >>> spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the >>> spelling, >>> both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, "stink/stank" is >>> used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, disgusting odor." In >>> other cases, it's used to mean "the word, the inside dope, the >>> skinny," >>> leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other >>> cases, >>> "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul up," etc. A >>> closer >>> reading of the data may yield other meanings. >>> >>> IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >>> whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 07:02:55 2005 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:02:55 EST Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least since high school. -doug -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Department of Linguistics University of Texas - Austin http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 21 07:29:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:29:00 -0500 Subject: figurative "full-court press" Message-ID: In an email, Jonathan Lighter recalls hearing "full-court press" as a political metaphor around 1982-84. OED2 has this: ----- 1978 W. SAFIRE Political Dict. 248 'Full-court press' became White House lingo in the late sixties... In politics, the term has come to mean a strenuous effort to get legislation passed probably because of its resemblance to 'all-out pressure'. In basketball, however, the phrase is used only to describe a defense. ----- >From what I can tell the first significant public usage of the metaphor was on Feb. 28, 1973, when L. Patrick Gray faced the Senate Judiciary Committee in the confirmation hearing for the post of FBI director. Gray insisted that the FBI's Watergate investigation had been "a full-court press" -- a sports metaphor that would prove as inauspicious as George Tenet's notorious claim that the case for WMDs in Iraq was "a slam-dunk". Cites for the figurative usage follow -- as sticklers like Safire would point out, the term is usually (mis)applied to offensive rather than defensive maneuvers. 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 13 Jun. IV-12/6 Nothing so embarrassing as humor which doesn't come off, and John Godey's actor mistaken for a gangster doesn't in spite of a full court press. 1973 _Wall St. Journal_ 1 Mar. 16/4 Mr. Gray repeatedly insisted the investigation was thorough, and using what he said was FBI jargon, said that when he heard of the Watergate break-in "I pushed the FBI button and said, 'Go, give it a full-court press.'" 1973 _Washington Post_ 1 Mar. A1/2 Gray called the investigation a "full court press" and a "massive special" with no holds barred and no interference, despite implications of involvement high in the Nixon administration. 1973 _Wall St. Journal_ 8 Mar. 16/1 L. Patrick Gray III has been getting what the FBI calls a "full court press," or an all-out grilling, from the Senate Judiciary Committee in preparation for a Senate vote on whether to confirm him as the FBI's permanent director. In basketball, a full-court press can either break the opposing team's nerve or give it renewed determination. Mr. Gray is holding up reasonably well. ... The Senate is fully justified in giving a candidate for such a sensitive post its full-court press. 1973 _New York Times_ 10 May 16/3 A more thorough examination, called "full court press," apparently because it recalls hard-driving basketball tactics, has also achieved a kind of notoriety in the division [sc. Third Armored Division] and elsewhere. 1973 _Advocate_ (Newark, Ohio) 24 Jul. 15/3 In Illinois, for instance, Republican investigators were scurrying around Cook County, but we had a full-court press operating in Southern Illinois. 1973 _Daily Times News_ (Burlington, N.C.) 22 Nov. 15B/4 It's not the job of a doctor to make moral judgments about his patients. ... No matter who is on the table, you give it the full court press. 1974 _Washington Post_ 30 Jan. B1/1 The evidence developed in court showed the Army was practicing something it called "the Full Court Press" on its own men. This consists of ordering a whole company out into the yard, ordering them to strip naked as jay birds while the officers go down the line inspecting every "cavity" for the feared contraband. 1974 _New York Times_ 6 Feb. 29 (heading) Sports under full-court press as lawsuits keep increasing. 1974 _Progress_ (Clearfield, Pa.) 23 Dec. 4/5 [T]he hostess launched a full-court press to find us. 1975 _New York Times_ 4 Apr. 25/3 [H]e described "the full-court press" that the city plans for the Democratic National Committee officials who plan to visit New York next month as part of their quest for a host city for next year's Democratic National Convention. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 08:12:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:12:20 EST Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: GOD IN THE DETAILS ... I know that Fred has been looking over "the details." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Holland Evening Sentinel _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2pa1aF2SG5x4qrwzAyB2nWyuAqBQxf4vKUIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 14, 1960 _Holland,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:holland+god+is+in+the+details+AND) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+god+is+in+the+details+AND) ...up THE whole of anythINg. THE idea of "GOD IN THE DETAILS" has far more than.....for one month payable IN advance. "GOD IS IN THE DETAILS." As an architect.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Who's in Those Details?; Why do we philologists concern ourselves with the origin of a specific phrase? Because we know where God and the Devil meet. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=115636754&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&V Inst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106294082&clientId=65882) BY WILLIAM SAFIRE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 30, 1989. p. SM8 (2 pages) ... ... _They Coined 'Modern' More. Than 30 Years Ago; 'Modern' (Cont.) _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=132970832&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD& VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106294530&clientId=65882) By BARBARA PLUMB. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 3, 1966. p. SM40 (2 pages) ... First page: Mies, an elegant perfectionist who delights in custom-tailored suits and _haute cuisine_, once said: "God is in the details." ... ... _A Sense of Common Purpose Needed to Halt Europe's Drift; Joseph Kraft _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=146199192&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VIns t=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106294323&clientId=65882) The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 10, 1969. p. A19 (1 page): ... "The devil is in the details," says a senior French civil servant who has spent most of the past decade in fruitless haggling over various projects for British membership in the Common Market. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL ... This is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2004), pg. 627. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... Newark Advocate Thursday, April 24, 1930 Newark, Ohio ...it's an aNOnymous story NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL. Once upon a j time, there.....by the The company expects to DRILL in the well on the Davis lease.. ... Key West Citizen Thursday, April 24, 1930 Key West, Florida ...in it. It's an aNOnymous NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL. Once upon a time there was a.....But 1 have NO doubt he will do so, AND when he does he will pretend it has.. ... Appleton Post Crescent Monday, August 04, 1930 Appleton, Wisconsin ...It's an aNOnymous story NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL. Once upon a time there a man.....PAY HAJ ARRW6P WH6N WORN OUT CREEDS AND afUER NO LON66R HdlP. NOW v.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... THE WHISPERER; SYNOPSIS. ROY VICKERS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 26, 1932. p. 12 (1 page): "This is Walter. Walter Who, says you. Never mind who--no names, no pack-drill." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 21 08:39:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:39:45 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:02:55 EST, Douglas Bigham wrote: >Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least since >high school. Note also that in hiphop/funk circles, "stank" has followed the ameliorative path of "funk(y)", from malodorous to melodious. The positive sense was popularized on the album _Stankonia_ (2000) by the Atlanta hiphop duo Outkast (who have a penchant for saying things like "Stank you very much"). ----- Message-ID: <52idpk$1rta at useneta1.news.prodigy.com> Date: 1996/09/28 Newsgroup: rec.music.funky Subject: Re: Essential funk from '95-'96 This record is soooo Funky that I call it "stank"... ----- Message-ID: <3c86f2fa&v02140b0db21fb570f641@[209.239.198.134]> Date: 1998/09/12 Newsgroup: rec.music.hip-hop Subject: On Deck Reviews (Sep 98) So funky it's stank nasty. ----- Message-ID: <3716ac55 at news.usenetserver.com> Date: 1999/04/15 Newsgroup: rec.music.hip-hop Subject: Everybody loves the sunshine..... Donald Byrd is funky...but James Brown is straight up STANK! ----- Message-ID: <19991109230633.24298.00003677 at ng-fb1.aol.com> Date: 1999/11/10 Newsgroup: rec.music.funky Subject: The reason you should buy Prince's new CD... good to see da man can crank out a hot jam and put sum stank on it!! ----- Message-ID: Date: 2000/03/29 Newsgroup: rec.music.funky Subject: Re: New Maceo If it ain't stank, it stinks. ----- New York Times October 29, 2000, Section 2; p. 32 OutKast, the Atlanta group that made Southern hip-hop competitive with anything from the East or West Coast, puts a funky Southern-accented "stank" at the core of its fourth album, "Stankonia" (LaFace/Arista 26072). ----- Atlanta Journal-Constitution February 26, 2002, p. 1E They christened the studio "Stankonia," which Benjamin created by combining a slang synonym for funky --- "stank"--- with "Plutonia," the title of a poster depicting a futuristic city that hangs in the rapper's bedroom. ----- --Ben Zimmer From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 21 09:54:22 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:54:22 +0000 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <200501210306.j0L36iE9016790@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, but I > know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that "library" > is going to follow "February" right down the tube. > > -Wilson Gray > Not to worry. Your missing 'r' finds it's unnecessary place in one UK arts commentator's pronunciation on BBC2 TV: she says 'drawring' for 'drawing'. From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 10:06:15 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:06:15 EST Subject: Sanas of Big Shot Message-ID: Big Shot Big Seo/d, Big Sead (pron. shod ) A Big Chief, Hero, or Warrior. Seod, al. sead (pron. sh?od): A jewel. Often used figuratively: a hero, a valiant man, a chief, a warrior. A wealthy person. (Dwelly p. 808) ERIE: ? I told him I knew all the Big Shots. Well, so I do, most of ?em, to say hello, and sometimes they hello back. Who wouldn?t know ?em that hangs around Broadway and the joints. (Eugene O'Neill, Hughie, pp. 283-284) Big Shot is often used in a deprecatory sense in the Irish American community. The NY-Irish Big Shot after the Civil War was John "Old Smoke" Morrissey, Five Points gang leader, world-heavyweight champion boxer, Tammany and anti-Tammany Congressman, Ward Heeler of Heelers, and Ard Ri/ (High King) of the Fiaradh (Turning) Game Brace (breith as) House,. Note: this is not a big seod etymology, just a humble little shot (seo/d, jewel) in the ancient linguistic light of Irish and Scots-Gaelic. That's me seo/d tonight. Pax Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of California San Francisco 1.21.05 From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 21 10:20:21 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:20:21 -0500 Subject: fun-tastic (1939) Message-ID: Grant Barrett has a new DTWW entry for the suffix "-tacular": http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/tacular/ Grant found cites for nominal forms back to 1958 ("spook-tacular"), but adjectival forms (e.g., "craptacular") only date to the mid-'90s. I'd guess that the "X-tacular" adjectives were modeled on "X-tastic", which became a productive formation for US advertisers in the '60s... a quick scan of Newspaperarchive shows "shoe-tastic" (1966), "carpet-tastic" (1966), "fang-tastic" (1968), "shag-tastic" (1969), "swim-tastic" (1970), etc. (During the NFL players' strike of 1987, David Letterman had a Top Ten list called "Top 10 Slogans of the Scab NFL"-- the number one slogan was, "It's scab-tastic!") But the granddaddy of them all is the obvious blend "fun-tastic": ----- 1939 _Los Angeles Times_ 27 Apr. 13/7 In-a-word description of the Ritz zanies: Fun-tastic. ----- 1942 _Nevada State Journal_ 27 Oct. 4/4 Fantastic and fun-tastic; manna for theater-goers who want "something different." ----- 1942 _Nevada State Journal_ 17 Nov. 4/4 Fun-tastic nonsense guaranteed to tickle your sense of humor. ----- All three examples come from Jimmie Fidler's syndicated column, "Fidler in Hollywood". --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 11:20:07 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 06:20:07 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is it any surprise that /l/ would behave like /r/ in English? There is not only the perceptual/articulatory fuzziness which introduces/deletes a final /l/, there is also a historical background. In the West of English, centered perhaps on Bristol, /l/-vocalization is common. The city name itself is pronounced "Bristow." This /l/ vocalization (or outright loss in some cases) is also very common in the American South (including the South Midlands). Where I grew up, the vocalizers (Kin Ah hewp yu) made fun of the deleters (Kin Ah hep yu); boy was it a wakekup call to us when we went a little farther North and found out that the vocalizing got lumped together with the deleting so that we were all classified as SKs. I digress into perception; my bad. So some teachers and others defenders of the tongue went around in Bristol telling people that the city had an /l/ in final position, whuppin chillun somethin awful till they said it. Don't take smart kids long to figger out that if they start puttin /l/s in after final vowels, they will risk their butts less. So, of course, they started saying "Bristol," but they also started saying "ideal," "sofal," "sodal," and lots of other treasures of the tongue. Now I don't want to claim that hypercorrection is the only source of "Bristol L" (as this phenomenon is known amongst us dialectologists). Once an indeterminate pronunciation is in the air as regards the treatment of these final vowel words, whether a child learns the lexical item "idea" as "idea" or "ideal" is up for grabs. Note, for example, how, without teacher supervision, the linking /r/ of "pizzar and beer" has caused some learners to reanalyze the underlying form of the first word as "pizzar," in spite of general phonotactic constraints is the local dialect. The hypercorrection story is similar to one of the accounts of the Cincinnati, Missouri pronunciations with final schwa. Since some of us old-timey SKs say "sodi" and "sofi" (for "soda" and "sofa"), we got whacked just like them little Pistols from Bristol, and started eschewing all final schwas; oncet you do that, hit's easy to get Cincinnat@ and Missour at . (I know there's other accounts of this, specially for the state name.) Course, it's obvious that little poopers who have made one rather than another analysis of the phonemic composition of a word during their growing up years will clearly constitute the class known as the ignorant in adulthood. We all know that. dInIs > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 p.m.: > [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for >"idea." Anybody else notice this? > >******** > >Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), >and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were >looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. >That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. > >Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 12:03:33 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:03:33 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > GOD IN THE DETAILS > ... > _Holland Evening Sentinel _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2pa1aF2SG5x4qrwzAyB2nWyuAqBQxf4vKUIF+CsZYmrz) > Wednesday, September 14, 1960 _Holland,_ > > ...up THE whole of anythINg. THE idea of "GOD IN THE DETAILS" has far more > than.....for one month payable IN advance. "GOD IS IN THE DETAILS." As an > architect.. I've done a lot of work on this one, and have it back to 1925. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 21 12:34:02 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:34:02 +0100 Subject: Resignable Message-ID: http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article505391.html Paul _________________________________________ Paul Frank English translation >From Chinese: social sciences and humanities >From German, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Dutch: sinology e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jan 21 13:40:26 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:40:26 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Sammich is alive and well in P'burgh! From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 13:52:01 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:52:01 -0800 Subject: cannot: OED pronunciation In-Reply-To: <00d301c4fd6a$805f5ab0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: --- David Bowie wrote: > FWIW, just to add more fuel, in my pronunciation > (where @ is short-a): > > can (n., container; v., to put in a container): > [k at n] > can (v., showing possibility or permission): [kEn] > cannot/can not (negative of v., possibility): > [kEnat] (w/ second > syllable stress) > can't: [k at nt] > > I was in a graduate seminar once where the professor > said that only speakers > of NYC English phonetically distinguish the two > verbs 'can' and 'can'. I > said i (from Maryland, south of DC) make such a > distinction, and said > professor responded that i didn't (by definition, i > suppose), and that i was > merely forcing the distinction i'd just > demonstrated. I (SE PA) also make a distinction between the two verbs but it's different from yours: can (v. to put in a container) [kaen] can (v. to show possibility or permission) [kEn] But oddly, can't [kaent] Ed __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 13:52:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:52:20 -0800 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning Message-ID: Sorry - I certainly didn't mean to imply anyone was younger than I am. The definition of to "swap" as "to trade or exchange" insufficently describes its historical usage. "Swapping X for Y" usually entails the idea that X is in my possession or under my control and Y is something new that isn't. "I swapped whole grains for refined ones" means to most of us just the opposite of what the writer clearly intended. As to the "novelty" of this newer usage - it caught my eye because even after hearing and reading billions and billions of words of English, I'd never encountered it before. This seems also to be true for the other posters to this thread. Arnold's analysis of the shift is fairly technical but may account for what happened. JL James Smith wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Smith Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardly young at 59, the use of "swap" to mean trade, exchange, or substitute seems totally natural to me. What is the so-called "established" meaning of swap? --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of > the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to > explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how > they originate) become "part of the language." In > simple terms, more young (I guess) people - > including young people who wind up as print > journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part > of the established meaning of "swap" and > "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). > > There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is > beginning to embrace this entire category of words. > JL > > "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains > for refined ones" + > > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." > > > > In my article "Contributions To The Study of > Blending" (_Etymology > > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald > Leonard Cohen, 1988; > > self-published but very favorably > reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on > > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): > > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust > into a new > > environment which changes the meaning of those > words." (Then: two > > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems > to be a third one, > > albeit not from the standard language.). > >> > > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January > 17, 2005: > > > >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of > "substitute" > >> commented upon some weeks ago: > >> > >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are > expected to place > >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising > daily, along with > >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating > a lot more > >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not > Carbs, Make You Fat > >> (AP) > >> January 12, 2005 > >> > >> > http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html > >> > >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're > eating whole grains > >> now, you should switch to refined ones. > >> > >> Thoughts? > > to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are > three usages: > (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD > (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW > [an extension of the "replace" pattern] > (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW > [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and > (2). note > that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD > before NEW, > iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new > information] > > now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" > example -- "swap NEW for > OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's > an extension of > the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics > similar to "substitute" > ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" > as well; i'd add > "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the > fact that "swap", > "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* > substitution, for which (in > central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: > in "I > swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball > cards", the marbles > replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which > participant is > expressed by the direct and which by the oblique > object could be > entirely determined by matters of focus and > topicality in the > discourse. > > so lighter's example could result from an extension > of a construction > to new head verbs semantically similar to existing > ones, a phenomenon > that is very widely attested. > > cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as > pretty implausible. in > clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible > to maintain that the > speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing > plans for expressing > the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up > with elements of > each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or > substitution, to > use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, > "Substitutions and > splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's > proposal is that "swap > NEW for OLD" results from blending > (1) substitute NEW for OLD > and > (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, > which involves, at the surface, switches in three > places, holding only > the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, > possible that > blending takes place at a more abstract level of > analysis, in which the > allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is > separated from the > choice of "for" as the oblique marker. > > extensions of constructions to new head items > semantically related to > existing heads *could* always be analyzed as > syntactic blends, with a > certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this > seems to me like the > wrong way to go, especially since people who produce > these extensions > so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in > general, the extensions > look like innovations in grammars, made > independently by some number of > speakers and then spread to other speakers by the > usual means. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 13:54:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:54:45 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: I never make my students cry. It's the other way round. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Idea/ideal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:57 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 09:40 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 8:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Idea/ideal >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> I've had several (mostly ill-educated) students who found it >>> difficult >>> or impossible to tell the difference between "idea" and "ideal." >>> They'd spell both as "ideal" - none went the other way. >>> >>> Here's a good quote from >>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/kc.chat/browse_frm/thread/ >>> 656aa361c3805b35/474af31e83cb3058? >>> q=%22neat+ideal%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22neat+ideal%22%26start%3D1 >>> 0% >>> 26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#474af >>> 31 >>> e83cb3058 (2000) >>> >>> "John Adams said 'Hey, guys, let's write a Declaration of >>> Independence.' 'Neat ideal,' said John Hancock."What's a Declaration >>> of Independence?" >>> >>> Other examples as far back as 1991 are easily found by Googling "neat >>> ideal." Other collocations would turn up more, I'm sure. >>> >>> The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for "idea." Anybody >>> else notice this? >>> >>> JL >> >> I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >> upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >> suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and >> my >> pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >> mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >> occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >> when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >> while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >> because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >> because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. >> >> -Wilson > > > Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is > common in > the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students > do it > all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant > pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since > they > very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply > spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled > "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I > think) by > her teacher. She never got over it. > Now that you mention it, I can recall also saying "crawl" for "craw," etc. Are you familiar with "rules" such as the one that food that has fallen onto floor can be eaten, if it's picked up within n-number of seconds? In my family, we just picked up the food and ate it, ritually commenting that "a little grit is good for your crawl." And, according to Crystal et al., East Texas is in the South, WRT dialect. Your student has my sympathy. When I was in grade school, Harvey suggested that we follow Lee, surnamed Lanier, around the schoolyard, chanting, "Lanier is a Frenchy name." It took only a couple of minutes of this to reduce Lee to tears. And he wasn't a crybaby. If being teased by peers can make a person cry, I can imagine what it must have felt like to be put down by a teacher. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 14:02:11 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:02:11 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <005b01c4ffbe$c50c18f0$13b89b3f@chaos> Message-ID: How come my informal pronunciation is being ignored - the obviously correct 'samwich'? Doesn't this nicely reflect the labiovelar nature of /w/, the latter of which students often find hard to believe? For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage 'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. (By the way, the next, nearly most informal stage, for good speakers like me is a loss of the nasal altogether, excepting nasalization of the vowel, of course but still with a /w/. ["Still with a /w/!" An unfortunate choice of words today, though I guess it would have been worse yesterday.] Of course, you can get here from 'sangwich' as well. Most informally, I can realize this item as a monosyllable, with loss of /w/ - /s [+nasal ae:] ch/.) A related issue, lots of beginning phonetics students 'hear' a velar /ng/ when a vowel is nasalized, regardless of the source of the nasalization dInIs Sammich is alive and well in P'burgh! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 14:10:15 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:10:15 -0500 Subject: "swap": inversion of meaning In-Reply-To: <20050121135220.25164.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is my favorite lurking presupposition for the new year. Course, we got a long time to go. "Arnold's analysis of the shift is fairly technical but may account for what happened." This is kind of a new twist to the economy principle, ain't it? dInIs >Sorry - I certainly didn't mean to imply anyone was younger than I am. > >The definition of to "swap" as "to trade or exchange" insufficently >describes its historical usage. "Swapping X for Y" usually entails >the idea that X is in my possession or under my control and Y is >something new that isn't. > >"I swapped whole grains for refined ones" means to most of us just >the opposite of what the writer clearly intended. > >As to the "novelty" of this newer usage - it caught my eye because >even after hearing and reading billions and billions of words of >English, I'd never encountered it before. This seems also to be true >for the other posters to this thread. > >Arnold's analysis of the shift is fairly technical but may account >for what happened. > >JL > >James Smith wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: James Smith >Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hardly young at 59, the use of "swap" to mean trade, >exchange, or substitute seems totally natural to me. >What is the so-called "established" meaning of swap? > > > >--- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "Blending" could account for the occasional slip of >> the tongue or pen, but Arnold is probably closer to >> explaining how such "slips" (if indeed that's how >> they originate) become "part of the language." In >> simple terms, more young (I guess) people - >> including young people who wind up as print >> journalists - have failed to comprehend a big part >> of the established meaning of "swap" and >> "substitute" (and perhaps "trade" and "switch"). >> >> There's enough evidence to suggest that the shift is >> beginning to embrace this entire category of words. >> JL >> >> "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: "swap": inversion of meaning >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Jan 17, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote: >> >> > This looks like a blend: "subsitute whole grains >> for refined ones" + >> > "swap/switch refined grains for whole ones." >> > >> > In my article "Contributions To The Study of >> Blending" (_Etymology >> > And Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1---by Gerald >> Leonard Cohen, 1988; >> > self-published but very favorably >> reviewed---pp.81-94), I comment on >> > semantic change as a result of blending (p.89): >> > "As a result of blending, words are often thrust >> into a new >> > environment which changes the meaning of those >> words." (Then: two >> > examples; Jonathan Lighter's example below seems >> to be a third one, >> > albeit not from the standard language.). >> >> >> > Original message from Jonathan Lighter, January >> 17, 2005: >> > >> >> This is much like the odd shift in the meaning of >> "substitute" >> >> commented upon some weeks ago: >> >> >> >> "New dietary guidelines coming out Wednesday are >> expected to place >> >> more emphasis on counting calories and exercising >> daily, along with >> >> swapping whole grains for refined ones and eating >> a lot more >> >> vegetables and fruits." -- Gov't: Calories, Not >> Carbs, Make You Fat >> >> (AP) >> >> January 12, 2005 >> >> >> >> >> >http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/333/7228/411784.html >> >> >> >> This says to me (nonsensically) that if you're >> eating whole grains >> >> now, you should switch to refined ones. >> >> >> >> Thoughts? >> >> to recap the old "substitute" discussion: there are >> three usages: >> (1) original: substitute NEW for OLD > > (2) encroached: substitute OLD with/by NEW >> [an extension of the "replace" pattern] >> (3) reversed: substitute OLD for NEW >> [denison suggests that this is a blend of (1) and >> (2). note >> that both (2) and (3) have the virtue of putting OLD >> before NEW, >> iconically to the preferred sequence of old and new >> information] >> >> now, the obvious analysis of lighter's "swap" >> example -- "swap NEW for >> OLD", instead of "swap OLD for NEW" -- is that it's >> an extension of >> the pattern in (1) to new verbs with semantics >> similar to "substitute" >> ("swap", and possibly, as cohen suggests, "switch" >> as well; i'd add >> "trade"). this extension would be facilitated by the >> fact that "swap", >> "switch", and "trade" are verbs of *mutual* >> substitution, for which (in >> central uses) NEW replaces OLD and OLD replaces NEW: >> in "I >> swapped/switched/traded my marbles for her baseball >> cards", the marbles >> replace the baseball cards and vice versa. which >> participant is >> expressed by the direct and which by the oblique >> object could be >> entirely determined by matters of focus and >> topicality in the >> discourse. >> >> so lighter's example could result from an extension >> of a construction >> to new head verbs semantically similar to existing >> ones, a phenomenon >> that is very widely attested. >> >> cohen's syntactic blend analysis strikes me as >> pretty implausible. in >> clear examples of syntactic blends, it's plausible >> to maintain that the >> speaker (or writer) was entertaining two competing >> plans for expressing >> the same meaning (or very similar ones) and ended up >> with elements of >> each, usually in pretty simple ways (by splicing or >> substitution, to >> use the terminology from davld fay's 1981 paper, >> "Substitutions and >> splices: A study of sentence blends"). cohen's >> proposal is that "swap >> NEW for OLD" results from blending >> (1) substitute NEW for OLD >> and >> (2) swap/switch OLD for NEW, >> which involves, at the surface, switches in three >> places, holding only >> the preposition "for" constant. it is, of course, >> possible that >> blending takes place at a more abstract level of >> analysis, in which the >> allocation of OLD and NEW to syntactic arguments is >> separated from the >> choice of "for" as the oblique marker. >> >> extensions of constructions to new head items >> semantically related to >> existing heads *could* always be analyzed as >> syntactic blends, with a >> certain amount of ingenuity (as above). but this >> seems to me like the >> wrong way to go, especially since people who produce >> these extensions >> so rarely treat them as inadvertent errors; in >> general, the extensions >> look like innovations in grammars, made >> independently by some number of >> speakers and then spread to other speakers by the >> usual means. >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively >|or slowly and cautiously. > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? >http://my.yahoo.com > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 21 14:39:39 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:39:39 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: > >For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 21 14:43:39 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:43:39 +0000 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <200501211439.j0LEdpFM022852@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: > But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 14:52:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:52:24 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is. -Wilson On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Douglas Bigham > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least > since > high school. > > -doug > > -dsb > Douglas S. Bigham > Department of Linguistics > University of Texas - Austin > http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 14:55:44 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:55:44 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Well, you got your assimilators and your non-assimilators. Why any self-respecting person would like to stick an alveolar in front of a labiovelar is beyond me. It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country to ruin. dInIs >American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >> >>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. > >But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. > >Regards, >David > >barnhart at highlands.com -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 21 15:18:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:18:17 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Dennis, I'm not ashamed to say I am NOT a Republican. So, don't lay all the ruin at my door. American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 9:55 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >Subject: Re: sammich >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >David, > >Well, you got your assimilators and your non-assimilators. Why any >self-respecting person would like to stick an alveolar in front of a >labiovelar is beyond me. It's you people who don't assimilate who are >driving this country to ruin. > >dInIs > > > > > >>American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >>2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >>> >>>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. >> >>But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. >> >>Regards, >>David >> >>barnhart at highlands.com > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 21 15:19:04 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:19:04 -0500 Subject: sammich Message-ID: I say "hang ker ch at f" American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, 2005 at 9:43 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: sammich >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: > >> But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? > >Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:00:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:39 AM -0500 1/21/05, Barnhart wrote: >American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >> >>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. > >But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. > Besides which, if we go with dInIs, we have to give up the old riddle-- "Why do you never go hungry at the beach" [SPOILER SPACE] Because of all the san(d)-which-is there. [#Because of all the sam(w)iches there.] larry From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:13:49 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:13:49 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, AHA! You do assimilate to velars (at least sometimes). I take all (uh, most) of it back. dInIs >I say "hang ker ch at f" > >American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >2005 at 9:43 AM -0500 wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: neil >>Subject: Re: sammich >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: >> >>> But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? >> >>Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 16:15:38 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:15:38 -0600 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different pronounciation? (I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun "stink") I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music videos, around the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar Melonhead) "Little Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a pink house, but it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh muther pank." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote > from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not > getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted > in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to > draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. > But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in > what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? > It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I > once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to > pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be > distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you > mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, > in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it > stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. > But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and > "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just > ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar > about it at all. > > -Wilson > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably > > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. > > > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated > > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, > "You got the > > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about > sixty years > > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, > "everybody can > > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." > > > > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country > > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go > 'hayid. Put > > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put > your mark (of > > ownership, etc.) on it." > > > > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. > > > > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both > > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the > > spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, > > "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, > > disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the > word, the inside dope, the skinny," > > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other > > cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul > up," etc. > > A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. > > > > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following > > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:18:22 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:18:22 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Phony phonetics in riddle-puns (e.g., the Parade magazine's last page, that stuff you don't read folded into your Sunday paper) piss me off. I'm always getting the dang things wrong because they either stretch (or spelling-pronounce) some of their answers (like Larry's beach answer). dInIs >At 9:39 AM -0500 1/21/05, Barnhart wrote: >>American Dialect Society on Friday, January 21, >>2005 at 9:02 AM -0500 wrote: >>> >>>For speakers for whom the velar wins out, "sangwich' emerges; for us >>>labial champions, it's 'samwich,' surely the input for the next stage >>>'sammich,' that last clearly the pronunciation of the ignernt. >> >>But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? Mine is clearly not labial. >> >Besides which, if we go with dInIs, we have to give up the old riddle-- > >"Why do you never go hungry at the beach" > >[SPOILER SPACE] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Because of all the san(d)-which-is there. > >[#Because of all the sam(w)iches there.] > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:28:53 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:28:53 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA705@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: I reckon all this is simply the common Southern - South Midlands modification of /I/ before nasals. Before labial and alveolar nasals /I/ goes to [E]; before the velar, it goes to [Ey]. There is important lexical influence; in my speech, for example, this [Ey] realization is obligatory in 'thing' and 'bring' but not so strong in 'ring' and hardly there at all in 'king.' (Word frequency; order of acquisition?) Tin-eared foreigners often her 'bring' and the variant preterite 'brang' as the same, but they ain't. 'Bring' is pronounced '[brEyng] (by the above rule) and 'brang' is pronounced 'braeyng,' the the following velar nasal causing the rising diphthongization of /ae/, but the onsets are quite distinct. dInIs >Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different >pronounciation? >(I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun >"stink") > >I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music >videos, around >the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar >Melonhead) "Little >Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a pink >house, but >it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh >muther pank." > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote >> from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not >> getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted >> in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to >> draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. >> But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in >> what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >> It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I >> once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to >> pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be >> distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you >> mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, >> in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it >> stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >> But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and >> "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just >> ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar >> about it at all. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > - >> > -------- >> > >> > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >> > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >> > >> > JL >> > >> > Wilson Gray wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Wilson Gray >> > Subject: The stink/The stank >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > - >> > -------- >> > >> > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >> > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, >> "You got the >> > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about > > sixty years >> > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, >> "everybody can >> > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >> > >> > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >> > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go >> 'hayid. Put >> > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put >> your mark (of >> > ownership, etc.) on it." >> > >> > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >> > >> > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >> > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the >> > spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, >> > "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, >> > disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the >> word, the inside dope, the skinny," >> > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other >> > cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul >> up," etc. >> > A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. >> > >> > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >> > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >> > >> > -Wilson Gray >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:11:31 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:11:31 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When we discussed the Bristol L in my Soclx class a couple years ago, a student surnamed Bristow lit up with the shock of recognition. She said the family knew it came from Bristol but always wondered why they didn't spell their name with an 'l'. In my studies of early English contacts with American Indians, I found great variation between the two spellings (Bristol was the port of origin for many of the trading and slaving ships). At 06:20 AM 1/21/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Is it any surprise that /l/ would behave like /r/ in English? There >is not only the perceptual/articulatory fuzziness which >introduces/deletes a final /l/, there is also a historical >background. In the West of English, centered perhaps on Bristol, >/l/-vocalization is common. The city name itself is pronounced >"Bristow." This /l/ vocalization (or outright loss in some cases) is >also very common in the American South (including the South >Midlands). Where I grew up, the vocalizers (Kin Ah hewp yu) made fun >of the deleters (Kin Ah hep yu); boy was it a wakekup call to us when >we went a little farther North and found out that the vocalizing got >lumped together with the deleting so that we were all classified as >SKs. > >I digress into perception; my bad. > >So some teachers and others defenders of the tongue went around in >Bristol telling people that the city had an /l/ in final position, >whuppin chillun somethin awful till they said it. Don't take smart >kids long to figger out that if they start puttin /l/s in after final >vowels, they will risk their butts less. So, of course, they started >saying "Bristol," but they also started saying "ideal," "sofal," >"sodal," and lots of other treasures of the tongue. > >Now I don't want to claim that hypercorrection is the only source of >"Bristol L" (as this phenomenon is known amongst us dialectologists). >Once an indeterminate pronunciation is in the air as regards the >treatment of these final vowel words, whether a child learns the >lexical item "idea" as "idea" or "ideal" is up for grabs. > >Note, for example, how, without teacher supervision, the linking /r/ >of "pizzar and beer" has caused some learners to reanalyze the >underlying form of the first word as "pizzar," in spite of general >phonotactic constraints is the local dialect. > >The hypercorrection story is similar to one of the accounts of the >Cincinnati, Missouri pronunciations with final schwa. Since some of >us old-timey SKs say "sodi" and "sofi" (for "soda" and "sofa"), we >got whacked just like them little Pistols from Bristol, and started >eschewing all final schwas; oncet you do that, hit's easy to get >Cincinnat@ and Missour at . (I know there's other accounts of this, >specially for the state name.) > >Course, it's obvious that little poopers who have made one rather >than another analysis of the phonemic composition of a word during >their growing up years will clearly constitute the class known as the >ignorant in adulthood. We all know that. > >dInIs > > > > >> Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 p.m.: >> [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for >>"idea." Anybody else notice this? >> >>******** >> >>Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, Missouri), >>and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were >>looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. >>That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. >> >>Gerald Cohen > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 16:51:08 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:51:08 -0500 Subject: New York Post Research Need Message-ID: I wonder whether Barry Popik or George Thompson or some other New York City ADS-Ler might be willing to look something up for me in the microfilm of the New York Post. I realize this is a big imposition, so I will understand if the answer is no. I am trying to trace Woodrow Wilson's alleged remark after screening the film Birth of a Nation: "It is like writing history in lightning. My only regret is that it is all so terribly true." According to Russell Merritt, "Dixon, Griffith, and the Southern Legend," Cinema Journal 12: 26-45 (1972), "This famous remark was first quoted in the New York Post, March 4, 1915." This is the citation I would like to verify, as well as checking that the exact wording as given above is correct. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 16:59:00 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:59:00 EST Subject: sammich in Iowa and France Message-ID: "sa'wich" is, I'm sure, my normal, informal pronunciation (with nasalization of the firfst vowel, of course). This strikes me as the "most informal stage," with the /nd/ pronunciation as the most formal and the /nw/ pronunciation the "nearly" least "formal." The pronuncation with the velar nasal sounds alien to me (not that David Barnhart is an alien in any sense except that he is apparently not a member of my sub-dialect clan with respect to this important word." The pronunciation with the velar nasal sounds like something that a French vampire would delight in (to continue with the silly puns). In a message dated 1/21/05 9:02:40 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > (By the way, the next, nearly most informal stage, for good speakers > like me is? a loss of the nasal altogether, excepting nasalization of > the vowel, of course but still with a /w/. ["Still with a /w/!" An > unfortunate choice of words today, though I guess it would have been > worse yesterday.] Of course, you can get here from 'sangwich' as > well. Most informally, I can realize this item as a monosyllable, > with loss of /w/ - /s [+nasal ae:] ch/.) > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 17:03:31 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:03:31 EST Subject: Query: women > wimming Message-ID: I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a velar nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" pronunciation? From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:13:11 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:13:11 -0600 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've noticed a similar phenomenon in the use of velar nasal in "given" (e.g. Given our present situation...) within fairly formal speech contexts (e.g. academic meetings). In this case, of course, the velar pronunciation may be promoted in part by a reanalysis of the word as "giving". On 1/21/05 11:03 AM, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, > sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects > himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a > velar > nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. > > Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a > hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" > pronunciation? From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:41:42 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:41:42 -0500 Subject: sammich in Iowa and France In-Reply-To: <190.37cebf3e.2f228ed4@aol.com> Message-ID: Ron, You sure (in fast speech) you ain't got the monosyllable (with an admittedly long /ae/? dInIs >"sa'wich" is, I'm sure, my normal, informal pronunciation (with nasalization >of the firfst vowel, of course). This strikes me as the "most informal stage," >with the /nd/ pronunciation as the most formal and the /nw/ pronunciation the >"nearly" least "formal." The pronuncation with the velar nasal sounds alien >to me (not that David Barnhart is an alien in any sense except that he is >apparently not a member of my sub-dialect clan with respect to this important >word." > >The pronunciation with the velar nasal sounds like something that a French >vampire would delight in (to continue with the silly puns). > >In a message dated 1/21/05 9:02:40 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> (By the way, the next, nearly most informal stage, for good speakers >> like me is a loss of the nasal altogether, excepting nasalization of >> the vowel, of course but still with a /w/. ["Still with a /w/!" An >> unfortunate choice of words today, though I guess it would have been >> worse yesterday.] Of course, you can get here from 'sangwich' as >> well. Most informally, I can realize this item as a monosyllable, >> with loss of /w/ - /s [+nasal ae:] ch/.) >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:43:20 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:43:20 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. dInIs >I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >with a velar >nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. > >Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >"-ing" pronunciation? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:44:25 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:44:25 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt, You fergot that they might jus be ignernt. dInIs >I've noticed a similar phenomenon in the use of velar nasal in "given" (e.g. >Given our present situation...) within fairly formal speech contexts (e.g. >academic meetings). >In this case, of course, the velar pronunciation may be promoted in part by >a reanalysis of the word as "giving". > > >On 1/21/05 11:03 AM, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > >> I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >> sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >> himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a >> velar >> nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >> >> Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >> hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" >> pronunciation? -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Fri Jan 21 17:57:00 2005 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:57:00 -0600 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <200501211703.j0LH3bJk026804@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: My great-grandparents (rural Alabamians, born before 1920) said "chicking" instead of "chicken" whenever the preacher came to eat. A case of the same hypercorrection, I would think. Rachel RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: Query: women > wimming >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" with a velar >nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. > >Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the "-ing" pronunciation? > > -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:08:44 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:08:44 -0800 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country > to ruin. just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. arnold From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:16:11 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:16:11 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <7D1104FF-6BD7-11D9-9253-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: arnold, Yes, I (in)famously recently said in a talk that "African Americans and Appalachian immigrants are retarded in their acquisition of the Northern Cities Shift." Course in my opinion (from a purely affective point of view of course), it ain't no better kind of retardation to have than that which holds off the NCS, but some folk did have to take others aside and explain Kindly Old Perfessor Preston's rhetorical ineptitude. Please don't do the same with the above. dInIs >On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >>to ruin. > >just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. > >arnold -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:15:38 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:15:38 -0800 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <7D1104FF-6BD7-11D9-9253-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: --On Friday, January 21, 2005 10:08 AM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> ...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >> to ruin. > > just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. > > arnold Of course you meant to say "blown out of context," right? :) ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 18:29:16 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:29:16 EST Subject: Sanas of Naked Lunch Message-ID: Naked Lunch Lunch is a word-perfect example of how the orthodoxy of so-called "scientific etymology" mirrors the 19th and 20th century Oxford-Ivy league orthodoxy of "scientific racism;" wing-nut etymologies that read like a genealogy of the German English Royal family, who lunch for a living. But first, the lowly lunch of Irish and Scots-Gaelic. Lunch Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-hesh, the ?fh" ="h" slender ?s? = ?sh?) A feast of meat (Dineen, p. 675) Lo/n, g. lo/in, pl. id., lo/nta, lo/inte, m., Food, meats, provisions, supplies, stores; diet, dinner. ?The Gael of old, like the other ancient nations, had but one meal or diet daily ? the lo/n.? (Dwelly, p. 598). Lo/in-fheis (Pron. lown-esh), a feast of meat, is found in an Irish aisling or ?dream poem,? Aisling Meic Conglinne, edited by Kuno Meyer in 1892. (Dineen, p. xxiii) Luncheon Lo/in-fheis a/n (Pron. lowneshan) A noble, ?royal? feast of meat and dainties. A/n, adj : noble. The adjective A/n is a highfalutin word like the moniker Windsor (from the Old German Battenburg.) So the callow young prince's Nazi costume was really a family heirloom. Oxford Dictionary's Hunch on "Lunch" The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology gives the origin of ?lunch? and ? luncheon? as first appearing ?towards the end of the 16th century in the sense of a ?thick piece, hunch, hunk; perhaps ? Spanish lonja slice, the longer form being probably an extension on the analogy of punch and puncheon, trunch and truncheon. The sense ?slight repast between morning meals? appears XVIIth C., for luncheon, and first in form lunchin?(g); the present use of lunch (XIX) is a shortening of this whence lunch vb. (p. 540) Barnhart, the American etymological dictionary, also traces the word luncheon to a word meaning a ?thick piece, or hunk,? claiming the source is an obscure North English dialect in the 17th century. Of course, neither scientific etymological dictionary provides a single citation for their source. When you wallpaper the discourse, who needs steenking citations? Oxford goes with a Spanish word lonja, for a slice, while Barnhart connects lunch to Proto-Germanic ?skankon? and Old English ?scanca,? meaning a hollow bone used to draw booze out of a cask. So from lunch to hunk to hollow bone. A skankon etymology. This "scientific" etymology of Lunch really has to be read in full to be believed. Though I would never question an Oxford English professor's lunch or faith. Luncheon, n. 1580 luncheon a thick piece, hunk; later, a light meal (lunching before 1652 and luncheon, 1706). The semantic development was probably influenced by North English lunch hunk of bread or cheese; the morphological development may have been by alteration of dialectical Nuncheon light meal, developed from Middle English nonechenche, nonschench (1342), a compound of none NOON + schench drink, from Old English scenc, from scencan pour out. Old English scencan is cognate with Old Frisian skenka pour out, Old saxon, skenkian, Middle Dutch scencen (Modern Dutch schenken), and Old High German skenken (modern German einschenken), from Proto-Germanic skankjanan draw off (liquor), formed from skankon shinbone, SHANK (in Old English scanca), ? a hollow bone...and hence a pipe, a pipe thrust into a cask to tap it.? (W.W. Skeat). (Barnhart, p. 615) Lunch, n. 1829, shortened form of luncheon. -V. eat lunch. 1823 in Issac Disraeli?s Curiosities of Literature (no pg citation); from the noun. though of preceding date. ?lunchroom n. (1830, American English) ?lunchtime n., (1859, in George Eliot?s Letters). Lunch Lo/in-fheis (pron. lownesh) Feast of meat, food, and dainties. Free lo/in-fheis (lunch.) Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of Clifornia San Francisco 1.19.05 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 18:40:30 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:40:30 -0600 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into > a defensive posture. > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:44:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:44:20 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not only that; someone recently (I think it was Diane Rheam) interviewed some novelist or other and referred to his model as "Charles Dickings." At 12:43 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >Ron, > >I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. > >dInIs > > > >>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>with a velar >>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >> >>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>"-ing" pronunciation? > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:47:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:47:48 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Ron, > >I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. > >dInIs > that's Dicking's, innit? > >>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake Charles, LA, >>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then corrects >>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>with a velar >>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >> >>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>"-ing" pronunciation? > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 18:57:47 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:57:47 -0600 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: I don't understand what this one means. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > > NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL > ... > This is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2004), pg. 627. > ... > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > THE WHISPERER; SYNOPSIS. > ROY VICKERS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, > Ill.: Apr 26, 1932. > p. 12 (1 page): > "This is Walter. Walter Who, says you. Never mind who--no > names, no pack-drill." > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 18:53:59 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:53:59 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) Message-ID: Here's a comment on "nasi goreng" by a Javanese/Indonesian colleague of mine. >X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:58:24 -0500 >From: Suharni Soemarmo >To: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) >X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) >X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: >2005.1.21.4 (pm5) >X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/filtering/ >X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CD 0, __CT 0, __CTE >0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __LINES_OF_YELLING >0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' > >Thanks Bev. > >Actually fried rice "nasi goreng" is not complicated. What is intended is >probably "nasi rames", a small version of "rijstafel," a 21-course >dinner. The rice is put on a plate with at least ten kinds of side dish, >usually without sauce. > >Suharni > > >>> ; >>>Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:10:47 -0800 >>>Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys >>>From: lanang lanang >>>Subject: Re: nasi goreng (1938, 1939) >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: >>>2005.1.7.0 (pm2) >>>X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/filtering/ >>>X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=XXIIIIII, Probability=26%, Report='RCVD_IN_CBL 3, __CT >>>0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __DOMAINKEYS_YAHOO 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, >>>__MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' >>> >>>I am Indonesian, to be more specific I am Javanese. What Mr. ZImmer >>>wrote is correct about nasi goreng: there's no standard way of making >>>nasi goreng and what ingredients are used. However, there are certain >>>exact similarities among those differences: you must grind all >>>ingredients (spices), like cabai, salt, onion, garlic, before you star >>>frying the rice, and the result of grinding here is "sambel ulek" (not >>>sambel ulik") :). And most people will use soy sauce (kecap) and egg. >>>Most chinese restaurants in Indonesia consider nasi goreng as their >>>main food to sell. Besides all the ingredients I mentioned earlier, >>>the chinese in Indonesia will put (optionally) shrimp, sausage, meat >>>balls (we call it here bakso), squid, ham, lamb, even petai or pete >>>(small look-like-nut vegetable and can cause smell in your mouth and >>>urine after consuming it; this is loved by many lower middle people[and >>>some upper middle, but they wouldn't admit it :p ]). hopefully this >>>info will benefit our understanding about fried rice... >>> >>>A. Lanang >>> >>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>> >>>OED3 has 1958 for "nasi goreng" (Indonesian/Malaysian fried rice). I'm >>>sure Barry can do better, but here are LA Times cites from 1938 and >>>1939... >>> >>> >>>Los Angeles Times, May 23, 1938, p. III4/5 >>>FRIED RICE (Nasi Goreng) >>>As its Malay name implies, this consists basically of rice fried until it >>>is brown. There is no uniform recipe by which other ingredients are >>>determined; individual taste and chance as to ingredients available are >>>determining factors, with the result that the dish is never the same in >>>any two households. Usually small cubes of meat, fish or chicken are >>>fried with the rice. Sliced onions and cocoanut may be included. Spices >>>used include paprika and "sambal ulik" (very hot red pepper). >>> >>>Los Angeles Times, Sep 4, 1939, p. II2/8 >>>At the Dutch East Indies restaurant I found a 21-course feast called >>>Rijstaffel. >>>"What," I inquired of the beturbaned brown man who brought the 16th >>>offering, "is this tasty dish?" >>>"Nasi goreng." >>>"Thank you," I said, "and tell me, do you Javanese fear a Japanese >>>invasion?" "Nasi goreng." >>> >>>Los Angeles Times, Sep 24, 1939, p. I11/2 >>>A great many Javanese dishes would not be practical for home cooking, >>>because so many spices are needed and must be so skilfully comibned. But >>>one of the chef's special dishes is entirely practical and very, very >>>good. He calls it fried rice nasi Goreng, and he has given us the >>>following recipe. >>> >>> >>>--Ben Zimmer > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 19:28:24 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:28:24 -0600 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Didn't Walt Kelly's Pogo Possum eat sammiches? Or maybe Albert Alligator? From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 21 19:50:50 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:50:50 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: neil writes: >on 21/1/05 2:39 pm, Barnhart at barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM wrote: > >> But what about ignernts who say "sanwich"? > >Are they the same ignernts who say "hankerchief"? ~~~~~~~~ Yup. In my case, anyway. An' han'some, of course. AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 19:49:09 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:49:09 -0500 Subject: church sign Message-ID: Here's another sign I just noticed: A predominantly black church in Athens has this in its outdoor sign case: "Help us build a bridge over trouble waters." The pastor is an AAE speaker and a professor of African American Studies at OU. Good example of final t/d deletion reflected in spelling. Come to think of it, the wording is right on (though the sign predated the tsunami); we now know waters can be big trouble. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jan 21 20:47:11 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:47:11 -0500 Subject: Query: "Can't handle whitey" Message-ID: A correspondent writes with the following question. Please respond to him directly, as well as to the list. > From: francis reilly > Date: January 21, 2005 13:14:21 EST > Subject: phrase? > > I recently heard the phrase "C. H. Dub," standing for > "can't handle it whitey." Evidently, it was used > (circa 1960) by a waiter (black) who was an > aquaintance of a friend. I've searched for other > instances of its use and can't find anything, so I am > not sure if this was made up by the waiter. > > Frank Reilly > ottorino_respighi at yahoo.com From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 21:15:57 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:15:57 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20sammich=20in=20Iowa?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20and=20France?= Message-ID: In a message dated 1/21/05 12:41:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > Ron, > > You sure (in fast speech) you ain't got the monosyllable (with an > admittedly long /ae/? > > dInIs > No, if there is anything there it is a kind of very weak glottal stop--or that is the way it feels to me. My tongue NEVER touches my alveolar ridge. (Or am I misunderstanding the question?) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 21:31:01 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:31:01 EST Subject: Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982) Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:31:13 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND" > ... > Did Gandhi really say this? The movie Gandhi did. Something similar appears in "Fiddler on the Roof" (1964). I don't have a script available, but from memory: someone says something about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and someone else (probably Tevye) responds that the whole world will be blind and toothless. If someone is interested in pursuing this, the place to check is Shalom Aleichem's book "Tevye the Dairyman" (on which "Fiddler on the Roof" was based). - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 21 21:36:47 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:36:47 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Filmography" In-Reply-To: <156.48cdfdba.2f20a08c@aol.com> Message-ID: filmography (OED 1962) 1960 _Film Quarterly_ Autumn 32 Each of the two volumes concludes with 25-30 pages of stills ... and with a very detailed filmography. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jan 21 21:36:06 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:36:06 EST Subject: We is Message-ID: For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American woman who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most lightly-AAVE-flavored which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" but so do a lot of Anglos). Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of this particular speaker? - Jim Landau From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 21:58:32 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:58:32 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:40 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into >> a defensive posture. >> > > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, > and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just > got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). > > The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, > "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, > purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) > Back in the '60's in LA, amongst the colored, at least, "bogart" - very often also overcorrected to "BO god" by young peppers who didn't remember Humphey Bogart - had the same meaning as "gorilla," which meant, "force one to unball one's fists." that is, being bad enough to cause an opponent, by sheer force of personality, to abandon his opposition, without the necessity of actually having to kick said opponent's ass. WRT "bogarting" a joint, I interpreted that to mean that the alpha toker had the habit of forcing his fellows to ask/beg him for a hit, as a means of underlining his status as "the man." Schoolyard bullies did literally say to a kid who was contemplating standing up for himself, "Unball your fists, man! Don't make me have to hurt you!" Of course, even after the kid had unballed his fists, the bully would hurt him, anyway, just on general principles, that being the nature of bullies. -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 22:18:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:18:24 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wasn't "wimming" Popeye's normal pronunciation of "women"? FWIW, my mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. -Wilson On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Ron, >> >> I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >> hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. >> >> dInIs >> > > that's Dicking's, innit? > >> >>> I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake >>> Charles, LA, >>> sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then >>> corrects >>> himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>> with a velar >>> nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >>> >>> Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>> hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>> "-ing" pronunciation? >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >> Wells Hall A-740 >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> Office: (517) 353-0740 >> Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 21 22:39:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:39:29 -0800 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: Well, they are the *same* word, but for people who reserve the differing pronunciations for specific meanings - or parts of speech - they're inching toward becoming different dictionary entries. Different "words." Not quite the same, since the difference arose in spelling rather than pronuciation, but comparable in principle, are "complete" and "compleat," which now generally have separate dictionary entries, "compleat" (largely from allusions to Izaak Walton) now means "consummate" only and is no longer just a variant spelling of "complete." JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: The stink/The stank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different pronounciation? (I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun "stink") I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music videos, around the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar Melonhead) "Little Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a pink house, but it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh muther pank." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote > from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not > getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted > in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to > draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. > But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in > what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? > It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I > once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to > pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be > distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you > mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, > in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it > stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. > But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and > "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just > ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar > about it at all. > > -Wilson > > On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably > > Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. > > > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: The stink/The stank > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > -------- > > > > About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated > > cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, > "You got the > > stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about > sixty years > > since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, > "everybody can > > tell that you're the responsible party, etc." > > > > Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country > > Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go > 'hayid. Put > > yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put > your mark (of > > ownership, etc.) on it." > > > > In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. > > > > So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both > > spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the > > spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, > > "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, > > disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the > word, the inside dope, the skinny," > > leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other > > cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul > up," etc. > > A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. > > > > IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following > > whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 22:41:07 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:41:07 -0500 Subject: sammich in Iowa and France In-Reply-To: <11.3d3f5be4.2f22cb0d@aol.com> Message-ID: It's the disappearance of an onset /w/ which I am after. dInIs >In a message dated 1/21/05 12:41:59 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> Ron, >> >> You sure (in fast speech) you ain't got the monosyllable (with an >> admittedly long /ae/? >> >> dInIs >> > >No, if there is anything there it is a kind of very weak glottal stop--or >that is the way it feels to me. My tongue NEVER touches my alveolar >ridge. (Or am >I misunderstanding the question?) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 22:44:43 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:44:43 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <5DC46052-6BFA-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: Your mother and me. (No offense intended.) dInIs >Wasn't "wimming" Popeye's normal pronunciation of "women"? FWIW, my >mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > >-Wilson > >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Ron, >>> >>>I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >>>hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. >>> >>>dInIs >>> >> >>that's Dicking's, innit? >> >>> >>>>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake >>>>Charles, LA, >>>>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then >>>>corrects >>>>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>>>with a velar >>>>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >>>> >>>>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>>>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>>>"-ing" pronunciation? >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Dennis R. Preston >>>University Distinguished Professor >>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >>> Asian and African Languages >>>Wells Hall A-740 >>>Michigan State University >>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>>Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jan 21 22:55:21 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:55:21 -0800 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <5DC46052-6BFA-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray wrote: > FWIW, my > mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any other way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been miss-pronouncing women all these years? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 22:59:26 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:59:26 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:54 AM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, >> but I >> know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that >> "library" >> is going to follow "February" right down the tube. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> > Not to worry. Your missing 'r' finds it's unnecessary place in one UK > arts > commentator's pronunciation on BBC2 TV: she says 'drawring' for > 'drawing'. > Yes. That "r" is very common in the Northeast of the US - New England, in fact. Once, I overheard a conversation between two local women in Cambridge, Massachsetts. One, describing a trip out west, said to her friend, "While I was in California - "California," that's the way they pronounce it out there." At that time, I lived in California. I thought, somewhat indignantly, "WTF! Is she saying that Californians don't know how to pronounce the name of their own state?! How bad is that?!" I was able to relax, though, as soon as I recalled that Boston-area locals are themselves so inept at speaking English that *they* think that "California " is pronounced "Califo'nia"! This is the same - well, close enough to being the same for government work - pronunciation used by country folk in East Texas. -Wilson Gray From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 23:01:07 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:01:07 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <5DC46052-6BFA-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: And has anyone heard the plural pronounced the same as the singular, [wU m at n/wo m at n]? I hear this from radio people in particular--a spelling pronunciation/hypercorrection, I assume. At 05:18 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >Wasn't "wimming" Popeye's normal pronunciation of "women"? FWIW, my >mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > >-Wilson > >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Ron, >>> >>>I'm pretty sure you;re right. Dicken's has got some '-ing' >>>hypercorrectors among his characters; I done forgot who. >>> >>>dInIs >> >>that's Dicking's, innit? >> >>> >>>>I have a videotape from a 1961 press conference in which a Lake >>>>Charles, LA, >>>>sherriff pronounces "women" with a final velar nasal and then >>>>corrects >>>>himself. In general in this press conference, he pronounces "-ing" >>>>with a velar >>>>nasal, and there are other indications of formality as well. >>>> >>>>Am I right in concluding that the "wimming" pronunciation is a >>>>hypercorrection occassioned by the sherriff's self-conscious of the >>>>"-ing" pronunciation? >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Dennis R. Preston >>>University Distinguished Professor >>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >>> Asian and African Languages >>>Wells Hall A-740 >>>Michigan State University >>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>>Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 23:07:04 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:07:04 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$5t87k2@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:20 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Is it any surprise that /l/ would behave like /r/ in English? There > is not only the perceptual/articulatory fuzziness which > introduces/deletes a final /l/, there is also a historical > background. In the West of English, centered perhaps on Bristol, > /l/-vocalization is common. The city name itself is pronounced > "Bristow." This /l/ vocalization (or outright loss in some cases) is > also very common in the American South (including the South > Midlands). Where I grew up, the vocalizers (Kin Ah hewp yu) made fun > of the deleters (Kin Ah hep yu); boy was it a wakekup call to us when > we went a little farther North and found out that the vocalizing got > lumped together with the deleting so that we were all classified as > SKs. > > I digress into perception; my bad. > > So some teachers and others defenders of the tongue went around in > Bristol telling people that the city had an /l/ in final position, > whuppin chillun somethin awful till they said it. Don't take smart > kids long to figger out that if they start puttin /l/s in after final > vowels, they will risk their butts less. So, of course, they started > saying "Bristol," but they also started saying "ideal," "sofal," > "sodal," and lots of other treasures of the tongue. Hm. I reckon that the kids in Bristol are sharp as a pistol even when they're not doing the "Bristol stomp." -Wilson Gray > > Now I don't want to claim that hypercorrection is the only source of > "Bristol L" (as this phenomenon is known amongst us dialectologists). > Once an indeterminate pronunciation is in the air as regards the > treatment of these final vowel words, whether a child learns the > lexical item "idea" as "idea" or "ideal" is up for grabs. > > Note, for example, how, without teacher supervision, the linking /r/ > of "pizzar and beer" has caused some learners to reanalyze the > underlying form of the first word as "pizzar," in spite of general > phonotactic constraints is the local dialect. > > The hypercorrection story is similar to one of the accounts of the > Cincinnati, Missouri pronunciations with final schwa. Since some of > us old-timey SKs say "sodi" and "sofi" (for "soda" and "sofa"), we > got whacked just like them little Pistols from Bristol, and started > eschewing all final schwas; oncet you do that, hit's easy to get > Cincinnat@ and Missour at . (I know there's other accounts of this, > specially for the state name.) > > Course, it's obvious that little poopers who have made one rather > than another analysis of the phonemic composition of a word during > their growing up years will clearly constitute the class known as the > ignorant in adulthood. We all know that. > > dInIs > > > > >> Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 20, 2005, 7:09 >> p.m.: >> [...] The students I'm thinking of even *said* "ideal" for >> "idea." Anybody else notice this? >> >> ******** >> >> Yes, In past years I was active in two community groups (Rolla, >> Missouri), >> and the leaders of both groups would sometimes say that they were >> looking for "good ideals" or "new ideals" (ideas) from the members. >> That and "liberry" (library) stick in my mind. >> >> Gerald Cohen > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African > Languages > A-740 Wells Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > Phone: (517) 432-3099 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > preston at msu.edu > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 21 23:14:48 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:14:48 -0600 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:59 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > Back in the '60's in LA, amongst the colored, at least, > "bogart" - very often also overcorrected to "BO god" by young > peppers who didn't remember Humphey Bogart - had the same > meaning as "gorilla," which meant, "force one to unball one's > fists." that is, being bad enough to cause an opponent, by > sheer force of personality, to abandon his opposition, > without the necessity of actually having to kick said > opponent's ass. WRT "bogarting" a joint, I interpreted that > to mean that the alpha toker had the habit of forcing his > fellows to ask/beg him for a hit, as a means of underlining > his status as "the man." > Thanks for the background -- that's the only reasonable explanation I've ever heard for the term. In the experience of my friends, those who bogarted weren't trying to assert their "alpha toker" status, they were just stoned and forgot to pass it on. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 23:16:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: sammich > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > arnold, > > Yes, I (in)famously recently said in a talk that "African Americans > and Appalachian immigrants are retarded in their acquisition of the > Northern Cities Shift." Jesus, dInIs, you really stepped on your dick with that one!;-) -Wilson > > Course in my opinion (from a purely affective point of view of > course), it ain't no better kind of retardation to have than that > which holds off the NCS, but some folk did have to take others aside > and explain Kindly Old Perfessor Preston's rhetorical ineptitude. > > Please don't do the same with the above. > > dInIs > >> On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> >>> ...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >>> to ruin. >> >> just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. >> >> arnold > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 21 23:28:49 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:28:49 -0500 Subject: sammich In-Reply-To: <7FEDC6D0-6C02-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: Thank you for suggesting I could (without being a contortionist). dInIs (who still succumbs to some adolescent fantasies) >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>Subject: Re: sammich >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>arnold, >> >>Yes, I (in)famously recently said in a talk that "African Americans >>and Appalachian immigrants are retarded in their acquisition of the >>Northern Cities Shift." > >Jesus, dInIs, you really stepped on your dick with that one!;-) > >-Wilson > >> >>Course in my opinion (from a purely affective point of view of >>course), it ain't no better kind of retardation to have than that >>which holds off the NCS, but some folk did have to take others aside >>and explain Kindly Old Perfessor Preston's rhetorical ineptitude. >> >>Please don't do the same with the above. >> >>dInIs >> >>>On Jan 21, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>> >>>>...It's you people who don't assimilate who are driving this country >>>>to ruin. >>> >>>just wanted to see that accusation again, out of context. >>> >>>arnold >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jan 21 23:31:03 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:31:03 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: <19288904-6C00-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 05:59 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: >On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:54 AM, neil wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: neil >>Subject: Re: Idea/ideal >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, >>>but I >>>know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid that >>>"library" >>>is going to follow "February" right down the tube. >>> >>>-Wilson Gray >>Not to worry. Your missing 'r' finds it's unnecessary place in one UK >>arts >>commentator's pronunciation on BBC2 TV: she says 'drawring' for >>'drawing'. > >Yes. That "r" is very common in the Northeast of the US - New England, >in fact. Once, I overheard a conversation between two local women in >Cambridge, Massachsetts. One, describing a trip out west, said to her >friend, "While I was in California - "California," that's the way they >pronounce it out there." At that time, I lived in California. I >thought, somewhat indignantly, "WTF! Is she saying that Californians >don't know how to pronounce the name of their own state?! How bad is >that?!" I was able to relax, though, as soon as I recalled that >Boston-area locals are themselves so inept at speaking English that >*they* think that "California " is pronounced "Califo'nia"! This is the >same - well, close enough to being the same for government work - >pronunciation used by country folk in East Texas. > >-Wilson Gray But the /r/ in 'drawring' is not a loss but an addition, akin to the /l/ I cited earlier with reference to my grad student's pronunciation and spelling 'drawling' (then a 6-year-old, if I didn't make that clear before). It's the same word-final or intervocalic insertion Dennis alluded to earlier today, in this case, of a liquid. (Compare 'oncet/twicet' and 'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 21 23:37:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:37:31 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Most people pronounce "women" as though it's spelled "wimmin." My mother pronounces "women" as though it's spelled "wimmun," with a *very* clear schwa in the final syllable. She forms the plural of "woman" by raising and fronting the [^] of the first syllable to [I] while leaving the schwa of the final syllable unmodified. I find it very annoying. But, what can you do, if it's your own mom? -Wilson Gray On Jan 21, 2005, at 5:55 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> FWIW, my >> mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > > ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any > other > way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables > before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been > miss-pronouncing women all these years? > > ***************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon > ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 00:21:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:21:16 -0500 Subject: We is In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American > woman > who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most > lightly-AAVE-flavored > which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" > but so do a > lot of Anglos). > > Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of this > particular speaker? > > - Jim Landau > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? -Wilson Gray From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 22 00:29:32 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:29:32 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1106319321@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: >--On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray > wrote: > >>FWIW, my >>mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. > >??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any other >way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables >before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been >miss-pronouncing women all these years? > As Wilson says, the standard version would have an unstressed [I] in the second syllable rather than [@], but I don't think I'm alone in having trouble detecting quality differences in unstressed English vowels, as in the old "roses"/"Rosa's" minimal pair, or "hand in glove"/"hand an' glove". (I mentioned a number of these in my "spitten image" paper from last year's AS. Besides [I] and [@], it's claimed that some speakers have a vowel closer to barred-i, which I won't try to asciify.) larry From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Jan 21 18:07:21 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:07:21 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: I hear 'polm' for 'poem' all the time and even hear 'bolth' for 'both' fairly often. Fritz >> >>JL > >I haven't noticed this particular phenomenon. However, FWIW, I once >upon a time pronounced the word "cow" as "cowl." Then, one day, I >suddenly noticed the disconnect between the spelling of the word and my >pronunciation thereof. Nobody ever said anything to me about my >mispronunciation, out of kindness or, perhaps, fear. As I've had >occasion to find out the hard way, some people don't take it lightly >when someone else presumes to "correct" their speech. It took me a >while to realize that a person doesn't speak a particular idiolect >because he's too stupid to know any better. Rather, he speaks that way >because, for him, that way of speaking is the right way to speak. > >-Wilson >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' Adding a "dark /l/ after a vowel and especially intervocalicly is common in the South Midland and, presumably, South. My southern Ohio students do it all the time. And it isn't a "mispronunciation"; it's simply a variant pronunciation; no one in the same region would "correct" you, since they very likely used it themselves. "Ill-educated" students are simply spelling the way they speak. I had a graduate student who spelled "drawing" as "drawling" until she was slapped down (literally, I think) by her teacher. She never got over it. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Jan 21 18:09:20 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:09:20 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal Message-ID: My wife says 'mongster' and can hardly say 'monster'--only with GREAT difficulty. I don't understand why it' so difficult for her. Fritz Sammich?! WTF! I much prefer to have a sangwich. I know that no less a light than Richard Pryor is a sammich man. Nevertheless, I gotta go with the dialect of my birthplace and have a sangwich. But, WRT the other lexical items, I gotta give you your props. You're the man. -Wilson Gray > > >>>> > Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, > but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid > that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. > > -Wilson Gray > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Jan 22 00:38:19 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:38:19 -0800 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To me, an [I] in the second syllable sounds decidedly Eastern. Or like my wife indicating the sometime feminist spelling "wimmin" for ironic effect. My own pronunciation feels like a barred i or possibly a schwa. Certainly not a front vowel. Peter Mc. --On Friday, January 21, 2005 7:29 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: >> --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray >> wrote: >> >>> FWIW, my >>> mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. >> >> ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any other >> way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables >> before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been >> miss-pronouncing women all these years? >> > As Wilson says, the standard version would have an unstressed [I] in > the second syllable rather than [@], but I don't think I'm alone in > having trouble detecting quality differences in unstressed English > vowels, as in the old "roses"/"Rosa's" minimal pair, or "hand in > glove"/"hand an' glove". (I mentioned a number of these in my > "spitten image" paper from last year's AS. Besides [I] and [@], it's > claimed that some speakers have a vowel closer to barred-i, which I > won't try to asciify.) > > larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Jan 22 00:40:04 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:40:04 -0800 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jeez, Fritz--you gotta get outta Salem! Peter Mc. --On Friday, January 21, 2005 10:07 AM -0800 FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > I hear 'polm' for 'poem' all the time and even hear 'bolth' for 'both' > fairly often. Fritz ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 22 01:26:43 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:26:43 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: <97A3D39C-6BF7-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 4:58 PM -0500 1/21/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:40 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>>From: American Dialect Society >>>[mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >>>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>> >>>Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into >>>a defensive posture. >>> >> >>Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, >>and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just >>got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). >> >>The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, >>"Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, >>purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) >> > >Back in the '60's in LA, amongst the colored, at least, "bogart" - very >often also overcorrected to "BO god" by young peppers who didn't >remember Humphey Bogart - had the same meaning as "gorilla," which >meant, "force one to unball one's fists." that is, being bad enough to >cause an opponent, by sheer force of personality, to abandon his >opposition, without the necessity of actually having to kick said >opponent's ass. WRT "bogarting" a joint, I interpreted that to mean >that the alpha toker had the habit of forcing his fellows to ask/beg >him for a hit, as a means of underlining his status as "the man." > Well, since nobody's chimed in yet with HDAS's entry... The first cites of the verb are indeed associated with "Black E.", 'to force or coerce, bully, intimidate', from 1966. Us whiteys' sense for the verb as 'hog, esp. of a marijuana cigarette' dates back to its memorable occurrence in the "Easy Rider" movie, 1969. I couldn't remember (duh!) the "artists" who popularized that song--Fraternity of Man? If you say so.... Artist: The Fraternity Of Man Lyrics Song: Don't Bogart Me Lyrics Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Roll another one Just like the other one. This one's burnt to the end Come on and be a friend. Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Don't bogart that joint, my friend Pass it over to me. Ro-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-oll another one Just like the other one. You've been hanging on to it And I sure would like a hit. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 02:06:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:06:49 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: "If they don't know (and we don't tell) our names, they can't punish us with pack-drill," a British Army disciplinary exercise involving marching or running under full pack for an extended period. "Pack-drill," AFAIK, is not an American phrase. F. H. Snow wrote a WWI novel so titled (London: Palmer, 1932). JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand what this one means. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 2:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > > NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL > ... > This is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2004), pg. 627. > ... > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > THE WHISPERER; SYNOPSIS. > ROY VICKERS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, > Ill.: Apr 26, 1932. > p. 12 (1 page): > "This is Walter. Walter Who, says you. Never mind who--no > names, no pack-drill." > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 02:09:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:09:23 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 5:44 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Your mother and me. (No offense intended.) > > dInIs None taken, needless to say. -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 02:09:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:09:49 -0800 Subject: The stink/The stank Message-ID: "To bogart" = to intimidate, bully (usu. "into" something), kind of like a Bogart character. Thanks, Wilson, for the first example in many years. Am proud to be a part of it. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: The stink/The stank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > > Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into > a defensive posture. > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 02:14:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:14:08 -0800 Subject: "second-hand" Message-ID: Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." Since then I've heard this many times. Have you? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 02:31:52 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:31:52 -0500 Subject: Idea/ideal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:09 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING > Subject: Re: Idea/ideal > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My wife says 'mongster' and can hardly say 'monster'--only with GREAT > difficulty. I don't understand why it' so difficult for her. > Fritz > Back in the days before ibuprofen went generic and I saw the name spelled out in ads, I pronounced "Motrin" as "Moltrin." And your lady wife (I used to watch the Celtic Channel) has my sympathy. It's only by thinking before speaking that I can make the distinction between -im-/-in- and -em-/-en-. Otherwise, they fall together as -im-/-in-. -Wilson > Sammich?! WTF! I much prefer to have a sangwich. I know that no less a > light than Richard Pryor is a sammich man. Nevertheless, I gotta go > with the dialect of my birthplace and have a sangwich. But, WRT the > other lexical items, I gotta give you your props. You're the man. > > -Wilson Gray > >> >> >>>>> >> Sigh. To quote Leon, I hate to be the one to break it to you, Jerry, >> but I know librarians who say "liberry" and "liberrian." I'm afraid >> that "library" is going to follow "February" right down the tube. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004 >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 03:35:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:35:34 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "To bogart" = to intimidate, bully (usu. "into" something), kind of > like a Bogart character. > > Thanks, Wilson, for the first example in many years. Am proud to be a > part of it. > > JL 'Twas my pleasure, Jon! -Wilson > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> Good point, Bev! I shouldn't have let Jonathan bogart me into >> a defensive posture. >> > > Bogart? Don't know the verb that way. Bogart isn't in the OED, > and I need to remind myself to look it up in HDAS tonight (just > got a copy of Vol 1, ha!). > > The only way I know the verb "to bogart" is like the song, > "Don't bogart that joint, my friend". (My interest was, ah, > purely academic -- that is, I _was_ in college at the time ....) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Jan 22 02:54:42 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:54:42 -0600 Subject: sammich Message-ID: Wilson's posts of recent days don't suggest that was a compliment. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" Thank you for suggesting I could (without being a contortionist). dInIs (who still succumbs to some adolescent fantasies) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 04:00:52 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:00:52 -0500 Subject: Query: women > wimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 7:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Query: women > wimming > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> --On Friday, January 21, 2005 5:18 PM -0500 Wilson Gray >> wrote: >> >>> FWIW, my >>> mother is unique in my experience in pronouncing "women" as [wI m at n]. >> >> ??? Am I being dense? Aside from "wimming," I can't think of any >> other >> way it could be pronounced. Or do you mean she divides the syllables >> before the [m] instead of after? Or inserts a pause? Or have I been >> miss-pronouncing women all these years? >> > As Wilson says, the standard version would have an unstressed [I] in > the second syllable rather than [@], but I don't think I'm alone in > having trouble detecting quality differences in unstressed English > vowels, as in the old "roses"/"Rosa's" minimal pair, or "hand in > glove"/"hand an' glove". (I mentioned a number of these in my > "spitten image" paper from last year's AS. Besides [I] and [@], it's > claimed that some speakers have a vowel closer to barred-i, which I > won't try to asciify.) > > larry > IMO, I can distinguish "roses" from "Rosa's," at least when I speak these aloud to myself. That is, I admit the possibility that I wouldn't necessarily be able tell the difference under any other circumstances. But there's no difference at all that I can discern between "hand in glove" and "hand and glove" in normal speech, even when I speak them aloud to myself. And, of course, "spit and image," spitten image," and "spittin' image" all fall together. -Wilson From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Jan 22 06:30:37 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:30:37 -0500 Subject: Mighty white of you-1916 Message-ID: I couln't find that we had done this in the archive. Maybe I did it at Straight Dope. Using Proquest, 6 Aug. 1916, _Chicago Tribune_ pg A1 col. 3 <> Sam Clements From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 22 09:51:08 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:51:08 -0800 Subject: We is In-Reply-To: <8833D552-6C0B-11D9-BE7C-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: I think "We was" is much more typical. What is the context of the African American woman's use of "we is"? Does it replace the traditional zero copula construction? Any example sentences? Wilson Gray wrote:On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American > woman > who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most > lightly-AAVE-flavored > which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" > but so do a > lot of Anglos). > > Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of this > particular speaker? > > - Jim Landau > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? -Wilson Gray Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Professor of English & Linguistics and University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 22 09:57:37 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:57:37 -0500 Subject: Mighty white of you-1916 Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:30:37 -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >I couln't find that we had done this in the archive. Maybe I did it at Straight Dope. > >Using Proquest, 6 Aug. 1916, _Chicago Tribune_ pg A1 col. 3 > ><> There's an OED2 cite for "this is white of you" from 1913 (Edith Wharton's _The Custom of the Country_). And here's another variant from 1893: "It's deuced white of you, Vertner," said Philip, with gloomy gratitude. "Benefits Forgot" by Wolcott Balestier, p. 773 The Century, Volume 45, Issue 5, Mar 1893 http://tinyurl.com/46dj8 --Ben Zimmer From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 10:01:25 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:01:25 EST Subject: church sign Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:49:09 -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > Here's another sign I just noticed: > A predominantly black church in Athens has this in its outdoor sign > case: "Help us build a bridge over trouble waters." The pastor is an AAE > speaker and a professor of African American Studies at OU. Good example of > final t/d deletion reflected in spelling. First, it is quite likely that the sign was put up not by the pastor/professor but by the sexton or the office secretary of the church. Second, as best as I can recall, on the Simon and Garfunkel recording of "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" the /d/ in "troubled" is either missing or extremely weak, and is easily interpreted as /trouble waters/. This may even have been deliberate, as the second syllable of "troubled" is (if I remember correctly) stretched out, and S and/or G may have decided that ending that syllable with the stop /d/ would have been jarring in that long legato passage. - Jim Landau Aside to Wilson Gray: good point on "Anglo". I don't know why I wrote "Anglo" when I meant "white", as I was meaning to say that "he don't" is NOT restricted to AAVE. Anyway, I'm sure there are numerous Lationos who say "he don't". From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 10:37:40 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:37:40 EST Subject: Tartufo (1955) Message-ID: TARTUFO ... This week, I continued the ethnic restaurants of Ninth Avenue chowdown with Basilica, 676 Ninth Avenue between 46th and 47th Streets, an OK, reasonably-priced Italian restaurant. For dessert, there was "tiramisu" and "tartuffo." ... While dictionaries rushed to include "tiramisu," "tartufo" is not in my Merriam-Webster. A few weeks ago, I heard "tartufo" lavishly explained to tourists at DiTamasso on Eight Avenue and West 56th. ... William Grimes's EATING YOUR WORDS, pg. 214, explains: "an Italian dessert, containing chocolate, of a creamy mousselike consistency. --ORIGIN Italian, literally 'truffle.'" ... "Tartufo," in this dessert sense, is not in the OED. You'd never know about the dessert's history at the Tre Scalini restaurant at the Piazza Navona in Rome. You could consult my online food dictionary, but...I'm busy doing parking tickets. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 168 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=170398692&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110638 5458&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 20, 1955. p. M8 (1 page) ... ROMAN FEVER...Once you've had it, you never really recover. And spring is the very worst time. YOU DREAM of _fragole_, the tiny woodland strawberries, and baby _piselli_, of fat creamy _fettuccine carciofi alla romano_ and the wines of the Castelli Romani and Valadiev's on the Pincio (Where Nathaniel Hawthorne used to go) and of the Tartufo at the Tre Scalini in the Piazzo Navona, the most beautiful square in _tutto il mondo_. ... _An Effortless Way to Give a Greek Wedding Feast or an Italian Picnic_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?i ndex=0&did=79674779&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106382777&clientId=65882) By JEAN HEWITT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 3, 1971. p. 31 (1 page) ... There's Galliano in the rich chocolate tartufo dessert for 75 cents and rum in the zuppa Inglese for 75 cents a slice. ... _Respite in San Gimignano; Quick Orientation Courtly Stylists A Respite in San Gimignano, a Tuscan Town of Beautiful Towers _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=110864541&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309 &VName=HNP&TS=1106382777&clientId=65882) By SARAH FERRELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 11, 1978. p. XX1 (2 pages) ... Pg. 21: Unable, for want of a kitchen, to justify the real thing, I order a "tartufo" for dessert, a thick disk of chocolate ice cream topped with a chocolate-coated cherry, the whole dipped in yet more chocolate. It is either utterly delicious or wretchedly excessive; I am unable to make up my mind. ... _Restaurants; Flavors from a Roman piazza. Tre Scalini _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=111008773&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD &RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106383257&clientId=65882) Mimi Sheraton. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 23, 1979. p. C16 (1 page): ... (Tre Scalini, 230 East 58th Street - ed.) The owners took their name from the same Tre Scalini Restaurant on the Piazza Navona in Rome (it means "three little steps," which appear at the entrance to make it all authentic).. ... The chocolate covered ice cream tartufo, a trademark at the original Roman restaurant, is just as well made here. ... _The Lighter Ice Creams: Now Less Is More; The Lighter Ice Creams and Ices: Now Less Is More _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=118609411&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106383701&client Id=65882) By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 21, 1982. p. C1 (2 pages) ... Pg. C6: But at the prices they are charging, they should also offer a truffle flavor - tartufo - as the superrich chocolate ice cream is called in Italy. ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _Northwest Airlines Travel to Rome_ (http://www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers/rome/0064020003.html) ... Best Desserts: It's a bit of an exaggeration to say that people fly to Rome just to sample the tartufo at Tre Scalini, Piazza Navona 30 (tel. ... www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers/rome/0064020003.html - 52k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:79csmiJmgA8J:www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers /rome/0064020003.html+tartufo+and+tre+scalini&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nwa.com/travel/world/frommers/rome/0064020003.html) ... _The Kiechle Family / Trips / Rome Christmas_ (http://www.kiechle.com/trips/romexmas/romexmas.htm) ... But the real reason to visit the Piazza Navona is, of course, the caf? and restaurant Tre Scalini, home of the world's best Tartufo (ice cream coated with ... www.kiechle.com/trips/romexmas/romexmas.htm - 33k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:bMqQg0j__roJ:www.kiechle.com/trips/romexmas/romexmas.htm+ tartufo+and+tre+scalini&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.kiechle.com/trip s/romexmas/romexmas.htm) ... _Rome : Restaurants : Dessert | Frommers.com_ (http://www.frommers.com/destinations/rome/0064022435.html) ... A close second is Tre Scalini, Piazza Navona 30 (tel. 06-687-9148;), which is celebrated for its tartufo. Gelato connoisseurs say ... www.frommers.com/destinations/rome/0064022435.html - 33k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:mjjX_mNPTDsJ:www.frommers.com/destinations/rome/00 64022435.html+tartufo+and+tre+scalini&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.f rommers.com/destinations/rome/0064022435.html) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- OT MISC. LIFE"S LITTLE IRONIES, OR, IT"S DAMN COLD OUT-I had a day off on Tuesday and went for a dental cleaning. On my last cleaning, a cavity was spotted. This time, I was told that I had cracked a molar way in the back of my mouth. And the dentist will have to cap it, but first, I have to see a periodontist, because I have to cut my gums, of course. In the dentist's waiting room was the latest issue of THE NEW YORKER. And I told the dentist that my "Big Apple" work was, after a mere 13 years, "The Talk of The Town." Without my name there, of course. And then you realize that if you added up all you've ever earned over 25 years, it still wouldn't pay for one tooth. So you go to work the next day, and the most important story in the world, according to the News and the Post, is that baseball player Mike Piazza is marrying a woman. And then you arrive at the parking ticket place, and you realize there's no heat. And the guard tells you you're lucky, you have the room with no windows, it's nice and comfy. And you should have been here yesterday, they worked from 8:30 a.m. to 7:30 p.m., and it was much colder then and everyone worked wearing coats, he says. And you say why doesn't anyone call 311, and they all say that nobody listens to us. And it's like this every damn day of your life. ... WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON FRIDAY?--Waverly Restaurant on Sixth Avenue and Waverly. It's been around Greenwich Village forever, but I'd never gone there. You get a lot of food (soup, salad, fish, potato, vegetable) for $15.95.- WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON THURSDAY?--Four restaurants! I had a slice of pizza at the four-week-old DeMarco's, at MacDougal and West Houston. It supposedly has great pizza and is a spin-off of a successful Brooklyn pizzeria. It's $2.50 a slice. Some nice cheese, but burnt crust that I skipped. I then had once slice at Pizza Booth and one slice at Pizza Box, opposite each other on Bleecker, again skipping the crust. Average stuff, for $2, and $2.25 a slice. I then had French onion soup at Dojo on West Fourth Street and Mercer, for $2.75. The best bargain of all. PAST WEEK: Our Place (Chinese) and Shanghai Pavilion, both on Third Avenue, between 77th and 82nd Streets. Excellent places. I'll probably go to the West Side for Teng's on West 55th Street (opposite La Bonne Soup) and Shanghai Palace on Ninth Avenue later this week. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 22 20:11:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:11:29 -0500 Subject: We is In-Reply-To: Message-ID: that's a good point. I have a friend, originally from Vermont, who *always* uses "ize" for "I was" and occasionally uses "weze" for "we were." -Wilson Gray On Jan 22, 2005, at 4:51 AM, Margaret Lee wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Margaret Lee > Subject: Re: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I think "We was" is much more typical. What is the context of the > African American woman's use of "we is"? Does it replace the > traditional zero copula construction? Any example sentences? > > Wilson Gray wrote:On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, > James A. Landau wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau" >> Subject: We is >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American >> woman >> who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most >> lightly-AAVE-flavored >> which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" >> but so do a >> lot of Anglos). >> >> Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of >> this >> particular speaker? >> >> - Jim Landau >> > > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any > circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. > However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" > wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say > that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a > speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. > > BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a > Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a > little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was > something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? > > -Wilson Gray > > > > Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. > Professor of English & Linguistics > and University Editor > Department of English > Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 > 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) > margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Jan 22 20:21:23 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:21:23 -0500 Subject: Tartufo (1955) Message-ID: For what it's worth, tartufo is in Canadian Oxford. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 20:28:37 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:28:37 EST Subject: Tartufo (1955) Message-ID: Ah, I looked around the house here and found this book. The 1955 citation in English won't be too bad. ... ... A COOK'S TOUR OF ROME: THE BEST ROMAN FOOD AND WHERE TO FIND IT by Doris Muscatine New York: Charles Scribner's Sons 1964 ... Pg. 310 (TRE SCALINI): His father began operating the restaurant here in 1932, joined later by his sons. The current chef has been with the family for over a dozen years. His specialties are two: cannelloni and bauletto )the stuffed veal recipe below). The bar is famous for an ice cream confection that the Ciampinis invented, according to Luigi, and you can have it for dessert in the restaurant. it is the gelato tartufo, rich chocolate ice cream with a surprise cherry in the middle, riddled generously with solid chocolate slivers, and topped off gloriously with a fluff of whipped cream. It is perhaps wise, if you plan to finish with this, to start with something like ham and melon instead of cannelloni. ... ... ... (I love chocolate, but "tartfuo" is decadent even for me!--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 20:48:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:48:42 EST Subject: Getaway Game Message-ID: THE NBA''s Atlantic Division continues to be exciting, with all the teams below .500 and the NY Knicks coach the first to be be gone. ... The last place New Jersey Nets beat first place Boston Celtics last night, Four games separates all the teams. The Nets leave for a tough five day road trip, with a Sunday game in Phoenix. ... "We call this the 'getaway game.'" said commentator and former player Kelly Tripucka. "You always want to get away with a win." ... Is "getaway game" from basketball or baseball? Is it the last home game before a road trip, or the last game on a road trip before returning home? ... (GOOGLE) ... _OrlandoSentinel.com: Magic Basketball_ (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... Spurs, now 18-5, would test his team's heart and toughness, considering some players refer to the last game of an arduous road trip as a "getaway game," as in ... www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/ magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic - 50k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tJpF4UufD-UJ:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagi c16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic+"getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604 dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... _Yahoo! Sports_ (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014) ... ``You always want to get the getaway game and take ... www.fansedge.com. 2. Los Angeles Clippers Fan Shops - Buy your favorite NBA basketball team merchandise here. ... sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014 - 28k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BUgyPOBW8rUJ:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014+ "getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=200 4013014) ... The significance of winning their last home game until Feb. 19 was not lost on the Clippers, who are 7-2 in home contests immediately preceding road trips. ``You always want to get the getaway game and take that positive feeling on the road with you,'' _Quentin Richardson_ (http://sports.yahoo.co m/nba/players/3417/) said. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 22 21:00:45 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:00:45 -0600 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) Message-ID: Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 21, 2005: > Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." > > Since then I've heard this many times. [...] > ********* This may be a blend: "...until it becomes second nature" + "until you know it like the back of your hand." Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 22 21:54:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:54:58 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:00 PM -0600 1/22/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 21, 2005: > >> Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second >>nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." >> >> Since then I've heard this many times. [...] >> > ********* > >This may be a blend: >"...until it becomes second nature" + "until you know it like the >back of your hand." > Is the latter clearly involved? I'd certainly think that besides the meaning of "second nature", the existence of "second-hand" is relevant. The sense of 'at one remove' is common to both, albeit in somewhat different ways: the standard term "second-hand" is glossed 'Not original or obtained from the original source' which seems not that distant in meaning from 'second nature': If you learn something second-hand and absorb it, it becomes second nature to you. "know...like the back of one's hand" may be involved, but I don't see it as necessary. Larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 22 22:14:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:14:05 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:54:58 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 3:00 PM -0600 1/22/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >>Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 21, 2005: >> >>> Around 1979 I heard a student using "second-hand" to mean "second >>>nature" : "You keep doing it till it becomes second-hand." >>> >>> Since then I've heard this many times. [...] >>> >> ********* >> >>This may be a blend: >>"...until it becomes second nature" + "until you know it like the >>back of your hand." >> >Is the latter clearly involved? I'd certainly think that besides the >meaning of "second nature", the existence of "second-hand" is >relevant. The sense of 'at one remove' is common to both, albeit in >somewhat different ways: the standard term "second-hand" is glossed >'Not original or obtained from the original source' which seems not >that distant in meaning from 'second nature': If you learn something >second-hand and absorb it, it becomes second nature to you. >"know...like the back of one's hand" may be involved, but I don't see >it as necessary. Perhaps this usage of "second-hand" is better understood as a shortened form of "second-hand nature". Google throws up dozens of examples... As we get older and cooking becomes second hand nature it's easy to forget all of the skills that it takes to cook. http://allrecipes.com/advice/coll/cooking/articles/123P1.asp Technique needs to be second hand nature. http://www.tennisexpress.com/Discount-Tennis-Shoesi.html As you gain experience teaching, you will find this becomes second-hand nature. http://www.teach-nology.com/forum/ showthread.php?t=288&page=1 At first counting calories may seem weird or out of place, but after a short while, it will become second hand nature to you. http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/fatlossdiet.htm "She tried it and it was like second hand nature to her," said Carol Miller, Allison's mother. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/062904_someone_fencing.html Once you get it setup and play with it for about an hour it'll be second hand nature. http://www.remotecentral.com/ureview/2.htm It's second hand nature now, but I was definitely a nervous beginner. http://justsmile.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t982.html In fact, it's second-hand nature to the Brisbane, Australia native. http://projects.jou.ufl.edu/ktrammell/ project1/ball/greenland2.htm In 2008 most of them will have it down and by 2012, it will be second-hand nature. http://blogs.salon.com/0001137/2003/07/01.html A lot of these players don't know NBA sets and personnel in a second-hand nature. That only comes with experience. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/askthewriter/cs-041202askkcjohnson,1,4906245.story?coll=cs-bulls-ask-headlines We wrote a novel together, a 22-page baseball novel in sixth grade. So it's kind of second-hand nature for us. http://www.moviehabit.com/essays/gpff_interviews.shtml She looks at non-places, rubble tips, shopping malls and overgrown concrete deserts, shows a second-hand nature human beings have to fit in, adapt to, and - survive in. http://www.kurzfilmtage.de/ikf/pages/festival/ index.php?id=540&lang_id=2&item_id=2928 Therefore, talking to student affairs offices is now second hand nature to me. http://www.unhmub.com/leadership/leadershaper_winter03.pdf As we submit ourselves to Him, surrender our wants/desires, and allow His desires to become our own, then God's will, will become second hand nature. http://www.fallennotforsaken.com/nickandbrittany/ 2004/11/here-is-my-qualifier-its-gods-will.html You just need to practice drawing hands from life and it will become *ahem* second hand nature. http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/ art/y/h/yhchang/carnelia.gif.html It's a very valuable project because these children are going to be adults soon and it's good to set good habits now, so they become second hand nature in life. http://www.yonet.co.uk/diary/rubbish.html Once you do a couple billion (exaggeration) of these you?ll get the hang of it, and, inshallah, it will become second hand nature to you. http://www.glimmermagazine.com/200402/ramadan.html --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 22 23:23:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:23:14 -0500 Subject: Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982) (FURY, 1936) Message-ID: NEW YORK POST RESEARCH: While in the Bronx Help Center on Friday, I brought up the topic of a storm. "You"ve been here a long time," I was told. "Have we ever closed?" Before I could answer, there was this: "When the electricity went out. We had a skeletal staff." That was last year, when there was a blackout and the subways weren't working. Parking tickets usually need computer databases for processing. Today, I went to the New York Public Library to do Fred Shapiro research. It was closed for the storm. So, I took a train to NYU, where I am now. There were subway announcements that no one could understand. (Thank goodness the fares are going up again.) I got to NYU a little after 5 p.m. There was a sign that most services would be closed at 5 p.m. -------------------------------------------------------------- EYE FOR AN EYE I checked NYU's database of AMERICAN FILM SCRIPTS ONLINE, but the movie GANHDI's script isn't there. FWIW, there's this: 3. Lang, Fritz; Cormack, Bartlett; Krasna,... . "Fury (1936)" [Page 38 | Paragraph | (SCENE) | Section | Table of Contents] over again. KATHERINE That doesn't matter. I'll never stop going over it as long as I live-- (She pauses a moment, fumbles with her bag, and then looks up at him quickly.) I don't want anything as blood-thirsty as an eye for an eye, or a life for a life, or whatever it is the law demands. I'll leave those details to you and Charlie and Tom. But part of that mob were women, Mr. Adams! And those men-- they have wives, some of them-- they have women who love them the way I loved Joe! I want those women to suffer. I 4. Lang, Fritz; Cormack, Bartlett; Krasna,... . "Fury (1936)" [Page 40 | Paragraph | (SCENE) | Section | Table of Contents] Voice says "innocent man," the scene dissolves to JOE'S HIDEOUT, where JOE is sitting hunched intently over a small, cheap radio, listening with a fixed grin of satisfaction. DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S VOICE The law is the only safeguard against "an eye for an eye," "a tooth for a tooth" and blind chaos! We again see the COURTROOM as the District Attorney concludes. DISTRICT ATTORNEY American democracy and its system of fair play for the rights of individuals under the law is on -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results Bibliography Platoon (1987): Shooting script. Written by: Stone, Oliver, 1946-. Electronic Edition by Alexander Street Press, L.L. C., 2002.Copyright ? 1986, Hemdale Film Corporation. Published edition used by permission of Oliver Stone.. Also published in Stone, Oliver, 1946-, Oliver Stone's Platoon & Salvador, New York, NY, Vintage Books, 1987. [Writer Information] [Bibliographic Details] [Character Information] Murder in the First (1995): Shooting script. Written by: Gordon, Dan. Electronic Edition by Alexander Street Press, L.L. C., 2002.Copyright ? 1995, Warner Bros. Reproduced by permission of Dan Gordon.. [Writer Information] [Bibliographic Details] [Character Information] Fury (1936): Shooting script. Written by: Cormack, Bartlett, 1898-1942; Lang, Fritz, 1890-1976. Story by: Krasna, Norman, 1909-1984. Electronic Edition by Alexander Street Press, L.L. C., 2002.Copyright ? Turner Entertainment Co. Reproduced by permission of Warner Bros. Consumer Products, a Division of Time Warner Entertainment Company, L.P.. Also published in Twenty Best Film Plays, Gassner, John; Nichols, Dudley, eds., New York, NY, Crown Publishers, 1943. [Writer Information] [Bibliographic Details] [Character Information] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 00:21:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:21:50 -0500 Subject: "History with Lightning" quote; "Big Apple" in Daily Mirror (Jan. 2005) Message-ID: "BIG APPLE" IN DAILY MIRROR The Big Apple whore hoax appeared just this week in London's Daily Mirror. It's enough to make you cry. Last year, I wrote to "Help Me Howard" of the Channel 11 News at Ten, and to the similar problem-solver on NY1. I said that this "Big Apple Whore Hoax" has to be firmly exposed, its creator publicly humiliated, and that it must finally be taken off the web. No one responded. Awright! Listen up everybody! Listen up, Daily News and New York Post! Listen up, television news directors! Not only did I solve "the Big Apple" thirteen years ago, and the origin of the "Yankees," and the origin of the baseball "fan," but...I made homosexual love to Mike Piazza! I MADE HOMOSEXUAL LOVE TO MIKE PIAZZA! (FACTIVA) Features QUESTION TIME 68 words 11 January 2005 Mirror 38 English (c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd Q WHY is New York called The Big Apple? D Moncaster, Chesterfield, Derbys A THE Dutch who first settled there planted a variety of apple they brought with them and the climate was so good it grew enormous fruit. John Smith, Northwich, Cheshire Features Dear Mirror: QUESTION TIME 69 words 12 January 2005 Mirror 38 English (c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd Q WHY is New York "the Big Apple"? D Moncaster, Chesterfield, Derbys A: JOHN Smith is wrong (Dear Mirror, Jan 11). In 1803 Evelyn de saint-Evremond fled France and opened a high-class bordello in New York. Her women were known as her "irresistible apples". Sam Maurice, Liverpool Letters Dear Mirror: Question Time 187 words 18 January 2005 Mirror 38 English (c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd Q WHY is New York called The Big Apple? D Moncaster Chesterfield, Derbys A FURTHER to the answers printed (Dear Mirror, January 11 & 12), some guide books suggest the moniker was first used in the 20s by John Fitzgerald, a racing reporter for the Morning Telegraph. Stablehands at a New Orleans racetrack apparently called the New York races "the Big Apple" because they offered the best reward. -------------------------------------------------------------- "HISTORY WITH LIGHTNING" QUOTE I'll try again tomorrow, if NYU decides to open. The quotation was used in Ken Burns' latest documentary just this past week about Jack Johnson. D. W. GRIFFITH: AN AMERICAN LIFE by Richard Schickel New York : Simon and Schuster 1984 Pg. 267: CHAPTER TEN "History with Lightning" Pg. 270: We do not know to whom Wilson addressed his famous two-sentence evaluation of the movie, but it passed quickly into general circulation, despite later attempts to disown it: "It is like writing history with Lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true."(5) Pg. 619: 5. Cripps, _Slow Fade to Black_, p. 52. This quotation, perhaps the most famous words ever spoken about a film, is accepted by this distinguished scholar, as by many of his predecessors. I accept it, too. Yet no one has been able to fulyl authenticate it. In print, so far as I can determine, its provenenace is based entirely on secondary sources. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 23 01:04:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:04:49 -0800 Subject: We is Message-ID: No news from here both are still common among blue-collar whites wherever I've been in the South. In fact, pretty universal for working folks who didn't go on to college. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: We is ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that's a good point. I have a friend, originally from Vermont, who *always* uses "ize" for "I was" and occasionally uses "weze" for "we were." -Wilson Gray On Jan 22, 2005, at 4:51 AM, Margaret Lee wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Margaret Lee > Subject: Re: We is > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I think "We was" is much more typical. What is the context of the > African American woman's use of "we is"? Does it replace the > traditional zero copula construction? Any example sentences? > > Wilson Gray wrote:On Jan 21, 2005, at 4:36 PM, > James A. Landau wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau" >> Subject: We is >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> For the last two weeks I have been in a class with an African-American >> woman >> who habitually says "We is". Her speech is at most >> lightly-AAVE-flavored >> which makes this particular usage stand out (she also says "he don't" >> but so do a >> lot of Anglos). >> >> Is "we is" a typical feature of AAVE or a personal idiosyncracy of >> this >> particular speaker? >> >> - Jim Landau >> > > For me, it's hard to say. I personally don't use "we is" under any > circumstances. Rather, I'm not conscious of using it, in any case. > However, its use by other speakers is so common that hearing "we is" > wouldn't get my attention. So, if I had to make a decision, I'd say > that it was typical, at least of some registers/subdialects. It's not a > speech defect that would be peculiar to a particular speaker. > > BTW, why is it that an Anglo can be only of the white race, whereas a > Latino "can be of any race?" Doesn't that strike anyone else as a > little strange, given that its original meaning in American Spanish was > something like, "anyone whose first language is English"? > > -Wilson Gray > > > > Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. > Professor of English & Linguistics > and University Editor > Department of English > Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 > 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home) > margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 23 01:30:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:30:57 -0800 Subject: Getaway Game Message-ID: To my mind, the "getaway game" in baseball is the final game of a road-trip series, esp. if the visitors have fared badly up to that point. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Getaway Game ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE NBA''s Atlantic Division continues to be exciting, with all the teams below .500 and the NY Knicks coach the first to be be gone. ... The last place New Jersey Nets beat first place Boston Celtics last night, Four games separates all the teams. The Nets leave for a tough five day road trip, with a Sunday game in Phoenix. ... "We call this the 'getaway game.'" said commentator and former player Kelly Tripucka. "You always want to get away with a win." ... Is "getaway game" from basketball or baseball? Is it the last home game before a road trip, or the last game on a road trip before returning home? ... (GOOGLE) ... _OrlandoSentinel.com: Magic Basketball_ (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... Spurs, now 18-5, would test his team's heart and toughness, considering some players refer to the last game of an arduous road trip as a "getaway game," as in ... www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/ magic/orl-sptmagic16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic - 50k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tJpF4UufD-UJ:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagi c16121604dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic+"getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sptmagic16121604 dec16,1,4946359.story?coll=orl-magic) ... _Yahoo! Sports_ (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014) ... ``You always want to get the getaway game and take ... www.fansedge.com. 2. Los Angeles Clippers Fan Shops - Buy your favorite NBA basketball team merchandise here. ... sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014 - 28k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BUgyPOBW8rUJ:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2004013014+ "getaway+game"+basketball&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=200 4013014) ... The significance of winning their last home game until Feb. 19 was not lost on the Clippers, who are 7-2 in home contests immediately preceding road trips. ``You always want to get the getaway game and take that positive feeling on the road with you,'' _Quentin Richardson_ (http://sports.yahoo.co m/nba/players/3417/) said. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 02:03:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:03:01 -0500 Subject: Keyboard Quarterbacks (1992) Message-ID: ROLODEX RANGER: Grant Barrett is in this Sunday's "On Language" column by William Safire. Safire discusses "Rolodex Ranger," something I recently posted here. -------------------------------------------------------------- KEYBOARD QUARTERBACK KEYBOARD QUARTERBACK--16 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits KEYBOARD QUARTERBACKS--415 Google hits, 5 Google Groups hits Like "Monday morning quarterback," someone who second-guesses from the quiet of a keyboard (perhaps, while in pajamas, like a "pajama pundit"). Newsday (http://newsdaysports.blogspot.com) uses this a lot...There's a nice "Keyboard Quarterbacks" article about the "Halle Berry Syndrome," of athletes marrying up and performing down, but that doesn't seem to have caught on. (GOOGLE) Keyboard Quarterbacks: November 2004 ... indifference to human life. Hackett may think he's safe from the media, but no one is safe from the Keyboard Quarterbacks. We're equal ... newsdaysports.blogspot.com/ 2004_11_01_newsdaysports_archive.html - 82k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) massbike August 2002: Re: [massbike] What not to do, and what t ... It's easy to play keyboard quarterback and say, "they should be fixed or removed." But come time to actually do something, some of us need real information ... www.massbike.org/email/archive/200208/0262.html - 10k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Hey, HERE'S an IDEA!!!! Could all of the over-zealous keyboard quarterbacks out there please contain their convulsive fits and whining? It's bad enough ... rec.sport.football.pro - Oct 29 1992, 1:48 pm by d'may... at tier.key.edu - 3 messages - 3 authors From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 02:13:22 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:13:22 -0800 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" in Alice Message-ID: an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any light to shed on "exactually"? Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold M. Zwicky > Date: January 22, 2005 6:04:21 PM PST > To: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Re: [rec.arts.books.childrens] Re: Please ID this 1970's > Children's Book > > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 10:35 PM, you wrote: [forwarded message] >> From: lenona321 at aol.com (Lenona321) >> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.childrens >> Subject: Re: Please ID this 1970's Children's Book >> Date: 04 Jan 2005 17:08:52 GMT >> > ... >> ?Let?s consider your age to begin with?how old are you?? asked the >> White Queen. >> >> ?I?m seven and a half exactly,? said Alice. >> >> ?You needn?t say ?exactly?,? the Queen remarked: ?I can believe it >> without that. Now I?ll give you something to believe. I?m just one >> hundred >> and one, five months and a day.? >> > ... >> (Oddly, some editions have the Queen saying "exactually." Can't >> imagine why - >> it doesn't strike me as typical Carrollian humor.) >> [Ann Burlingham] >> also: >> http://www.pseudodictionary.com/search.php?letter=e&browsestart=420 >> >> i like "exactually." people in Google examples seem to use it >> unconsciously. >> >> i must have an _annotated alice_ around here somewhere.... [AMZ] > curioser and curioser. the original Annotated Alice (1960) has > "exactually", but More Annotated Alice (1990) has "exactly". neither > has an annotation on this word. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 23 03:10:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:10:51 -0500 Subject: The stink/The stank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:15 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: The stink/The stank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Is the verb really a different word than "stink", not just a different > pronounciation? > (I agree that the noun "stank" has a separate meaning from the noun > "stink") Whether there's any distinction in meaning between "stink" and "stank" or not is dependent upon context, so that "stink" and "stank" don't have separate meanings. There's no automatic distinction. At least, there isn't in BE. Back in the '60's, hanging around the watercooIer, I mentioned "stinkfinger;" while chatting with white, Asian, and Latino colleagues (all male, needless to say). They didn't know what I was talking about, till I explained. Of course, they actually did know what I was talking about. They just weren't familiar with the term that I had used. But, if I'd been talking to blacks, they would have understood immediately, whether I'd said "stinkfinger" or "stankfang-uh," just as easily as you would have understood Mellencamp, whether he sang "Paint thuh muther pank" or "Paint the mother pink." -Wilson Gray > > I've heard "thank" for "think", and back when MTV still played music > videos, around > the time of John Cougar Mellencamp's (we called him John Cougar > Melonhead) "Little > Pink Houses", the network had a promotion where they gave someone a > pink > house, but > it had to be painted. I remember clearly Mellencamp saying "Paint thuh > muther pank." > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:09 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> I *do* agree with you. Oh. Now I see your point. The quote >> from Hank should read "stink." No, maybe I'm still not >> getting your point. I could say "it stanks," if that fitted >> in with what the people around me said and I didn't want to >> draw attention to myself by speaking a different subdialect. >> But the people around me use "stinks" and so do I. So, in >> what sense would this be impossible for any other speakers? >> It's not as though the string -ank- is foreign to English. I >> once had a chat with an Englishman who was unable to >> pronounce "Wanda" in isolation so that it could be >> distinguished from "wander" spoken in isolation. Or do you >> mean that "it stanks" would be impossible to the extent that, >> in some sense, no English speaker could say "it rans" or "it >> stoods" or "it wents"? Then I was right. I *do* agree with you. >> But, for people speaking a suddialect in which "stink" and >> "stank" fall together as "stank," "it stanks" would be just >> ordinary English speech, with nothing special or peculiar >> about it at all. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: The stink/The stank >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> I'd be inclined to agree, except that for many speakers (presumably >>> Hank Hill is one), the verbal " *It stanks " would be impossible. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> Wilson Gray wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: The stink/The stank >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> -------- >>> >>> About a year ago, I heard the character, Hank Hill, of the animated >>> cartoon, "King of The Hill," which is set in Texas, say, >> "You got the >>> stank on you and everybody can smell it." It's been about >> sixty years >>> since I've anyone use this turn of phrase, which means, >> "everybody can >>> tell that you're the responsible party, etc." >>> >>> Then, on Comedy Central a while ago, on a show called "Country >>> Comedians" or some such, one person says to another, "Go >> 'hayid. Put >>> yo' stank(sic) on it," which, from context, meant, "Put >> your mark (of >>> ownership, etc.) on it." >>> >>> In both cases, the speakers were white, FWIW. >>> >>> So, I was moved to see what Google had to say. It showed that both >>> spellings, "stink" and "stank," are in use. But, whatever the >>> spelling, both of the meanings above are rare. In some cases, >>> "stink/stank" is used to replace "funk" in the sense of "foul, >>> disgusting odor." In other cases, it's used to mean "the >> word, the inside dope, the skinny," >>> leading to puns like, "The stink on anal glands." In still other >>> cases, "put the stink/stank on" is used to mean "jinx, foul >> up," etc. >>> A closer reading of the data may yield other meanings. >>> >>> IMO, there's only one word, "stink," with the spelling following >>> whichever pronunciation is hip or boss in a given area. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >>> >> > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 23 03:14:03 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:14:03 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. Message-ID: beverly writ: (Compare 'oncet/twicet' and 'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) "An" is the older form, a destressed cousin whose fully-stressed form became "one". "A" before consonants shows a deletion. mark by hand at arisia, snowbound in boston www.arisia.org From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 23 03:31:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:31:06 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$61ceh2@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: What you say is historically true, Mark, but couldn't Bev's reanalysis be relevant for the contemporary language? [Bev, don't I ain't never did nothing for you.] -Wilson On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: drawring, etc. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > beverly writ: > > (Compare 'oncet/twicet' and > 'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) > > "An" is the older form, a destressed cousin whose fully-stressed form > became > "one". "A" before consonants shows a deletion. > > > mark by hand at arisia, snowbound in boston > www.arisia.org > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 07:09:19 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:09:19 EST Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) Message-ID: The FYI column in the City Section of the Sunday New York Times discusses an old, outdated term--"butter and egg man." ... This was not coined by the George S. Kaufman play of 1925. It is said to come from Texas Guinan in 1924. ... Guinan probably very definitely influenced the slang use of "butter and egg man," but the "butter and egg man" had been named that since at least the 1890s. ... Also, the second citation in the HDAS ("1925 in DA: A couple of big butter and egg men from Verona, New Jersey") should probably be 1926, not 1925. OED has 1926 for it. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _GENERAL BUSINESS TOPICS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=321915612&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11064620 97&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1895. p. 5 (1 page) ... The butter and egg men will also insist on the return of their crates and cases, or will charge for the same. ... _Display Ad 4 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=19&did=386538601&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106462 319&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 1, 1911. p. 6 (1 page) ... Maybe you didn't look in the basement before you leased your flat. Maybe you don't know or care anything about this heating subject. It means more to you than your butter and egg man--a blamed sight more. (...) KEWANEE BOILER COMPANY ... _BUTTER AND EGG MEN WILL QUIT SOUTH WATER STEET; BIG MARKET TO BE MOVED TO THE NORTH SIDE Fruit and Vegetable Men May Locate on a Pier. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=42&did=370222372&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106462388&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 21, 1919. p. A13 (1 page) ... _FIGHT H. C. L.; Butter and Egg Men, Who Met Here to Try to Cut Prices. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=43&did=370295012&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VI nst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106462388&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 4, 1919. p. 6 (1 page) ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lincoln Evening News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2vlfAIE1tu5eysOEjyS5uuLHrKB7KkA88kIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, September 11, 1891 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...evanog. Rlcbardeotat the BUTTER AND EGG MAN from Eagle, attempted to cross.....ind Injured about the legs, while his BUTTER jars AND their contents were.. ... ... _Bismarck Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2kq7kgeRNpFFVdv51sRxqTd+C/D8AbE0ug==) Friday, April 08, 1892 _Bismarck,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bismarck+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _North Dakota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north_dakota+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...to attend the national the BUTTER AND EGG MAN i meetmc of railroad.....homes. B. ureaeer. orders at WANTED- A MAN of push AND energy to a branch.. ... ... _Iowa Citizen _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2gFwP6hU2tCe/5734+KWc+bJAadI/QMUOUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 01, 1892 _Iowa City,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:iowa_city+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...Gafford traveled for his a BUTTER-AND-EGG MAN at MAN- ning. His parents are.....March Abner N. a young traveling MAN from shot AND killed Mabel Stevens.. ... ... _Lima Times Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2ur2+NtA79WmuUFZbtE3ddzJP1nJbieLS0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, December 05, 1894 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+butter+and+egg+man+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+butter+and+egg+man+AND) ...them to memory. The BUTTER AND EGG MAN is rarely ever known in a.....known in our town for years. It is a MAN affairs who is spoken of AND.. ...... ... ... (OED) butter-and-egg man U.S. slang, a wealthy, unsophisticated man who spends money freely; 1776 _WITHERING_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#withering) Bot. Arrangem. (1796) III. 552 Toadflax, Snap dragon, *Butter and Eggs. 1880 _JEFFERIES_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-j.html#jefferies) Gt. Estate 83 In shady woodlands the toadflax or butter-and-eggs is often pale,a sulphur colour. 1926 _H. C. WITWER_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#h-c-witwer) Roughly Speaking 229 A couple of big *butter and egg men from Verona, New Jersey. 1927 Daily Express 31 Aug. 8/7 ?Butter and egg man ? is an American slang expression practically equal to our term ?greenhorn? , that is, a man of money who spends lavishly and is an easy prey of the gold-digger and other unscrupulous persons. 1948 Antioch Rev. Spring 105 The ? butter-and-egg? man who startles the foreign lecturer with blunt questions. ... ... (NYPL CATNYP) Title Roughly speaking, by H.C. Witwer. Imprint New York, London, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1926. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Sun Jan 23 07:27:22 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:27:22 +0000 Subject: Bean Curd Mad In-Reply-To: <200501221037.j0MAblJQ021969@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: To-Fou anyone? Don't know whether Barry Popik has the following spelling, so here goes: "Ma Po Tou-fu - This nationally well-known dish was invented in the reign of Emperor Tung Chi (1862-75) of the Manchu Dynasty by the wife of one Chen Ling-fu, a well known chef in Chengtu. The lady had a badly pock-marked face; hence the name, Tou-fu of the Pock-marked Wife." - Kenneth Lo, 'Chinese Provincial Cooking', Elm Tree/Hamish Hamilton, London, 1979 (Sphere Books, London, 1981, 255) Where did Neil Crawford eat last night? Chez nous: fresh egg tagliatelle with home-made red pepper and mushroom sauce. Email me if you'd like the pasta sauce recipe. neil at typog.co.uk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 07:51:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:51:00 EST Subject: "Butter and Egg Man"--from Muriel Hanford? Message-ID: More butter-and-eggs. Maybe I'll look up Muriel Hanford's file in the NYPL's performing arts library. ... YOU correct the Sunday New York Times FYI column. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Hammond Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2ndGMeAapqD+PVDMpDxLZSM02LEj41a9ukIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, February 28, 1936 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+guinan+and+butter+and+egg) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+guinan+and+butter+and+egg) ...50, who originated the "big BUTTER AND EGG man" phrase which the late Tex.....Sioux City transport magnate, her "BUTTER AND EGG man." "I decided I wanted.. Pg. 4, col. 1: _PEACOCK GIRL_ _OF BROADWAY_ _GETS DOMESTIC_ ... _Muriel Window Hanford, Who_ _Jarred Metropolises, Liv-_ _ing in Iowa_ ... [INTERNATIONA NEWS SERVICE} ARNOLD PARK, Ia., Feb. 28.--Shades of Flo Ziegfeld and Tex Guinan--Muriel Window Hanford has settled down! ... Her whirlwind start and night club career which jarred and pleased Paris, New York, Hollywood--even Siouz City, Ia.--has gone definitely domestic in the more or less rustic scenes of this Iowa lake region. (...) To the community, she may become just Mrs. Howard G. Turnley, housewife and home maker. That is her new husband's name, and he lives at Mankato, Minn. ... To her old friends, it is certaiin she will remain Muriel Hanford, the girl, now 40 or 50, who originated the "big butter and egg man" phrase which the late Tex Guinan popularized, and whose Siouz City night club bore the slogan, "You Can't Beat Fun." ... "Yes, we were married two years ago, in Old Mexico," she said when questioned about Turnley. Her previous husbands were Emmet Keane, actor, and Arthur Hanford, Siouz City transport magnate, her "butter and egg man." ... ... ... (ANCESTRY) ... Name: Muriel Turnley SSN: 482-38-5403 Last Residence: 33062 Pompano Beach, Broward, Florida, United States of America Born: 16 Feb 1892 Died: Aug 1965 State (Year) SSN issued: Iowa (1951-1952 ) From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Sun Jan 23 08:03:55 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:03:55 +0000 Subject: Nowt so queer... In-Reply-To: <200501230727.j0N7RAO0016609@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: >From my file of homosexual qualifiers: queer as a cat fart queer as a clockwork orange queer as a coot queer as a curly-headed monkey queer as a flute queer as a football bat queer as a four-leaf shamrock queer as a green horse queer as a nine-bob note queer as a nine-dollar bill queer as a set of purple teeth queer as a six pound note queer as a square donut queer as a square egg queer as a three-dollar bill queer as a three-speed walking stick queer as a turnip queer as a two-bob clock queer as a two quid note queer as crystal queer as fuck queer as green horses Any additional citations (with source) welcome. Neil Crawford neil at typog.co.uk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 08:23:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 03:23:54 EST Subject: "Butter and Egg Man"--from Muriel Hanford? (of "Muriel Cigar") Message-ID: "Sioux" City. Sorry for typo...Also, who knew this about the Muriel Cigar? It's nowhere on the web...The FYI column begins with "Hell's Hundred Acres." That's on my web site. ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/nyregion/thecity/23fyi.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/nyregion/thecity/23fyi.html) Dairy and Fleece Q. At the theater the other day, I overheard a reference to a "butter and egg man," which I gather means an out-of-town investor waiting to be fleeced. But why butter and eggs? A. The phrase gave its name to a famous play, but that's not how it originated. "The Butter and Egg Man," the great collaborator George S. Kaufman's only venture as a solo playwright, told a story about a na?ve young man from Ohio who learns lessons about the realities of theater finance from some sharpies. The sendup of Broadway hit Broadway in 1925, and was most recently revived Off Broadway in 2002. But Kaufman didn't originate the term. That honor goes to Texas Guinan, the brassy lady who ran a series of nightclubs in the Roaring Twenties that brought together flappers, society figures and gangsters when they weren't being raided by the police. Her most famous contribution to the American idiom was her greeting "Hello, sucker." Her second-most-famous idiom came about this way, according to The Home Book of American Quotations: A generous stranger at her club in 1924 announced he was picking up all the checks in the house, threw $50 bills to the female entertainers, and, when asked his name, said only that he was in "the dairy produce business." Miss Guinan responded by introducing him to the crowd as "the big butter and egg man." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ... _Holland Evening Sentinel _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2l/4j8Trxob5DUgctSR0XKdOM+OnbmZKZkIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, August 30, 1965 _Holland,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:holland+peacock+girl+and+muriel) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+peacock+girl+and+muriel) ...died i Sunday at the age of 74. The PEACOCK GIRL in the 1913 Ziegfield.....Will Rogers AND Sir Harry Lauder. The MURIEL Cigar was named i in her honor.. ... Pg.8, col. 7: _Former Vaudeville_ _Star Dies at Age 74_ POMPANO BEACH, Fla. (UPI)--Mrs. Muriel Window Turnley, who introduced the world to such songs as "'Til We Meet Again" and "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles," died Sunday at the age of 74. ... The Peacock Girl in the 1913 Ziegfield Follies SHow, she played opposite such big names as Al Jolson, Will Rogers and Sir Harry Lauder. ... The Muriel Cigar was named in her honor. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 23 13:59:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:59:05 -0500 Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:09:19 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >The FYI column in the City Section of the Sunday New York Times discusses >an old, outdated term--"butter and egg man." >... >This was not coined by the George S. Kaufman play of 1925. It is said to >come from Texas Guinan in 1924. >... >Guinan probably very definitely influenced the slang use of "butter and egg >man," but the "butter and egg man" had been named that since at least the >1890s. >... >Also, the second citation in the HDAS ("1925 in DA: A couple of big butter >and egg men from Verona, New Jersey") should probably be 1926, not 1925. >OED has 1926 for it. I wasn't familiar with the George Kaufman play, but I knew the Louis Armstrong/May Alix song from 1926. I always assumed it was roughly equivalent to "sugar daddy"... http://www.heptune.com/bigbutte.html Heptune presents: Big Butter and Egg Man (Venables/Armstrong) Transcribed from vocals by Louis Armstrong and May Alix, recorded 11/16/26, >From Louis Armstrong, Hot Fives & Hot Sevens, the 25 Greatest; Living Era AJA 5171. May Alix: I want my butter and egg man, >From 'way out in the west. 'Cause I'm getting tired of working all day; I want somebody who wants me to play; Pretty clothes have never been mine, But if my dream comes true, The sun is going to shine; 'Cause I want my butter and egg man; Don't some great big butter and egg man want me? Louis Armstrong: Here, here, Now, mama, I'm your big butter and egg man! But I'm different, honey, 'Cause I'm from 'way down in the south! Now listen, baby, I'll buy you all the pretty things that you think you need As long as I can keep this cornet up to my mouth; Oh, I'll play you a little minor in G, Now, if you'll stay and sit there, baby, I'll even hit high C! 'Cause I'm your big butter and egg man, Come here, baby, kiss me, Big butter and egg man from 'way down south! May Alix: Pretty clothes have never been mine, But if my dream comes true, Something's going to change! --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 23 15:34:11 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:34:11 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) In-Reply-To: <23001.24.225.205.195.1106432045.squirrel@24.225.205.195> Message-ID: At 5:14 PM -0500 1/22/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Perhaps this usage of "second-hand" is better understood as a shortened >form of "second-hand nature". Google throws up dozens of examples... > > >As we get older and cooking becomes second hand nature it's easy to forget >all of the skills that it takes to cook. >http://allrecipes.com/advice/coll/cooking/articles/123P1.asp >... Interesting--I've never heard one of these to my knowledge but I suspect I have heard a number of instances of the "second-hand" form with the "second nature" meaning. There are, of course, several cases of adjustments in either form or meaning brought about by the proximity of two originally unrelated expressions that seem to vie for the same space in the mental lexicon. These can begin as eggcorns, but once they catch on the language has changed. Examples that have been commented on (by Bolinger and others) are daylight savings time (orig. "daylight saving time", but influenced by "savings bank" and such) safety deposit box (orig. "safe deposit", but influenced by "safety belt") "second-hand"/"second nature" isn't quite the same phenomenon, but I think a second cousin larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 15:38:07 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:38:07 EST Subject: Gandhi's "eye for eye"(1982) (FURY, 1936) Message-ID: In a message dated Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:23:14 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM quoted: > While in the Bronx Help Center on Friday, I brought up the topic of a storm. > "You"ve been here a long time," I was told. "Have we ever closed?" Before I > could answer, there was this: "When the electricity went out. We had a > skeletal staff." MWCD10 has "skeletal" as meaning "...resembling a skeleton" so presumably the staff was stranded for days with no food and when rescued were down to skin and bones. - Jim Landau From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 23 15:55:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:55:59 -0800 Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) Message-ID: A "butter and egg man" literally means a farmer who raises cows and chickens. Texas Guinan's usage was intentionally derisive, usually as "a big butter and egg man," i.e., an ignorant farmer or other non-urban rube visiting the bag bad city for the first time. This nuance may not come through in HDAS I, done when I was ten years younger and dumber. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The FYI column in the City Section of the Sunday New York Times discusses a= n=20 old, outdated term--"butter and egg man." ... This was not coined by the George S. Kaufman play of 1925. It is said to =20 come from Texas Guinan in 1924. ... Guinan probably very definitely influenced the slang use of "butter and egg=20= =20 man," but the "butter and egg man" had been named that since at least the =20 1890s. ... Also, the second citation in the HDAS ("1925 in DA: A couple of big butter =20 and egg men from Verona, New Jersey") should probably be 1926, not 1925. OED= =20 has 1926 for it. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _GENERAL BUSINESS TOPICS._=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D0&did=3D321915612&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D11064620 97&clientId=3D65882)=20 Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1895. p= .=20 5 (1 page)=20 ... The butter and egg men will also insist on the return of their crates and =20 cases, or will charge for the same. ... _Display Ad 4 -- No Title_=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D19&did=3D386538601&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1106462 319&clientId=3D65882)=20 Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 1, 1911. p. 6 (1 page= )=20 ... Maybe you didn't look in the basement before you leased your flat. Maybe yo= u=20 don't know or care anything about this heating subject. It means more to you= =20 than your butter and egg man--a blamed sight more. (...) KEWANEE BOILER COMPANY ... _BUTTER AND EGG MEN WILL QUIT SOUTH WATER STEET; BIG MARKET TO BE MOVED TO=20 THE NORTH SIDE Fruit and Vegetable Men May Locate on a Pier. _=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D42&did=3D370222372&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VTyp e=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1106462388&clientId=3D65882)=20 Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 21, 1919. p. A13 (1=20 page)=20 ... _FIGHT H. C. L.; Butter and Egg Men, Who Met Here to Try to Cut Prices. _=20 (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3D43&did=3D370295012&SrchMode=3D1&sid= =3D3&Fmt=3D10&VI nst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1106462388&clientId=3D6588= 2)=20 Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 4, 1919. p. 6 (1 page= )=20 ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lincoln Evening News _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3DW0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2vlfA= IE1tu5eysOEjyS5uuLHrKB7KkA88kIF+CsZYmrz) Friday,=20 September 11, 1891 _Lincoln,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:lincoln+butter+an= d+egg+man+AND) _Nebraska_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:nebraska+butter+= and+egg+man+AND) =20 ...evanog. Rlcbardeotat the BUTTER AND EGG MAN from Eagle, attempted to =20 cross.....ind Injured about the legs, while his BUTTER jars AND their conte= nts=20 were.. ... ... _Bismarck Daily Tribune _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3DwSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2kq7k= geRNpFFVdv51sRxqTd+C/D8AbE0ug=3D=3D) Friday, April=20 08, 1892 _Bismarck,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:bismarck+butter+a= nd+egg+man+AND) _North Dakota_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:north_dakota+but= ter+and+egg+man+AND) =20 ...to attend the national the BUTTER AND EGG MAN i meetmc of =20 railroad.....homes. B. ureaeer. orders at WANTED- A MAN of push AND energy=20= to a branch.. ... ... _Iowa Citizen _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3D/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2gFwP= 6hU2tCe/5734+KWc+bJAadI/QMUOUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 01,=20 1892 _Iowa City,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:iowa_city+butter+= and+egg+man+AND) _Iowa_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:iowa+butter+and+= egg+man+AND) =20 ...Gafford traveled for his a BUTTER-AND-EGG MAN at MAN- ning. His parents= =20 are.....March Abner N. a young traveling MAN from shot AND killed Mabel=20 Stevens.. ... ... _Lima Times Democrat _=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3D9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2ur2+= NtA79WmuUFZbtE3ddzJP1nJbieLS0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday,=20 December 05, 1894 _Lima,_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity:lima+butter+and+e= gg+man+AND) _Ohio_=20 (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate:ohio+butter+and+= egg+man+AND) ...them to memory. =20 The BUTTER AND EGG MAN is rarely ever known in a.....known in our town for=20 years. It is a MAN affairs who is spoken of AND.. ...... ... ... (OED) butter-and-egg man U.S. slang, a wealthy, unsophisticated man who spends=20 money freely; 1776 _WITHERING_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#withering= )=20 Bot. Arrangem. (1796) III. 552 Toadflax, Snap dragon, *Butter and Eggs.=20 1880 _JEFFERIES_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-j.html#jefferies)=20= Gt.=20 Estate 83 In shady woodlands the toadflax or butter-and-eggs is often=20 pale,a sulphur colour. 1926 _H. C. WITWER_=20 (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#h-c-witwer) Roughly Speak= ing 229 A couple of big *butter and egg=20 men from Verona, New Jersey. 1927 Daily Express 31 Aug. 8/7 =E2=80=98Butter=20= and egg man =E2=80=99 is an American slang expression practically equal to our term =20= =E2=80=98greenhorn=E2=80=99 , that is, a man of money who spends lavishly and is an easy prey of the=20 gold-digger and other unscrupulous persons. 1948 Antioch Rev. Spring 105 The= =E2=80=98 butter-and-egg=E2=80=99 man who startles the foreign lecturer with blunt qu= estions. =20 ... ... (NYPL CATNYP) Title Roughly speaking, by H.C. Witwer. Imprint New York, London, G.P.= =20 Putnam's Sons, 1926. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Jan 23 16:56:08 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:56:08 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. In-Reply-To: <3721C8E0-6CEF-11D9-95FC-000A95E82154@rcn.com> Message-ID: In first language acquisition (and early second also), children typically use unmarked 'a' in all contexts, adding liaison /n/ before vowels quite late (4 or 5, if memory serves away from my books). In some "subdialects" (I don't like the word, but OK for now) the lack of liaison may persist throughout adulthood, esp. in informal contexts (my Baltimorean ex-husband, a comp. lit scholar, was a good example of this). Witness 'a apple', 'a egg', 'a angel', etc. I have a Peanuts cartoon in which Charlie Brown tries to instruct Sally in its use, after which she writes in a letter to someone or other, "Dear Sir, You are an ucklehead." And of course, there's 'a napron' --> 'an apron' and Shakespeare's 'nuncle' (a reverse reanalysis), both of which suggest a psycholinguistic awareness of the "a to an before vowels" rule dating at least to Early Modern English. Ditto for 'my to mine', 'thy to thine', etc.--even my American grad students are amazed when they realize that this is what causes the pronoun variation in the Lord's Prayer, not to mention Shakespeare. Beverly Flanigan At 10:31 PM 1/22/2005 -0500, you wrote: >What you say is historically true, Mark, but couldn't Bev's reanalysis >be relevant for the contemporary language? [Bev, don't say I ain't never >did nothing for you.] > >-Wilson > >On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >>Subject: drawring, etc. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>beverly writ: >> >>(Compare 'oncet/twicet' and >>'an' < 'a' for other insertions before vowels.) >> >>"An" is the older form, a destressed cousin whose fully-stressed form >>became >>"one". "A" before consonants shows a deletion. >> >> >>mark by hand at arisia, snowbound in boston >>www.arisia.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 23 17:56:34 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:56:34 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" in Alice In-Reply-To: <5B799132-6CE4-11D9-8888-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: My copy of Alice (New York; The Macmillan Company; 1922) has: ' "You nedn't say 'exactually,' " the Queen remarked. ' [p. 100] The printing history on the verso of the title page suggests that this text was taken from the "New edition September 1906." The printing is credited to the Norwood Press, Berwick & Smith Co, Norwood, Mass., but I think the plates were probably those of the earlier Macmillan (London) printing. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~ >an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any >light to shed on "exactually"? > >Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Arnold M. Zwicky >> Date: January 22, 2005 6:04:21 PM PST >> To: Ann Burlingham >> Subject: Re: [rec.arts.books.childrens] Re: Please ID this 1970's >> Children's Book >> >> >> On Jan 21, 2005, at 10:35 PM, you wrote: > >[forwarded message] > >>> From: lenona321 at aol.com (Lenona321) >>> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.childrens >>> Subject: Re: Please ID this 1970's Children's Book >>> Date: 04 Jan 2005 17:08:52 GMT >>> >> ... >>> ?Let?s consider your age to begin with?how old are you?? asked the >>> White Queen. >>> >>> ?I?m seven and a half exactly,? said Alice. >>> >>> ?You needn?t say ?exactly?,? the Queen remarked: ?I can believe it >>> without that. Now I?ll give you something to believe. I?m just one >>> hundred >>> and one, five months and a day.? >>> >> ... >>> (Oddly, some editions have the Queen saying "exactually." Can't >>> imagine why - >>> it doesn't strike me as typical Carrollian humor.) >>> > >[Ann Burlingham] > >>> also: >>> http://www.pseudodictionary.com/search.php?letter=e&browsestart=420 >>> >>> i like "exactually." people in Google examples seem to use it >>> unconsciously. >>> >>> i must have an _annotated alice_ around here somewhere.... > >[AMZ] > >> curioser and curioser. the original Annotated Alice (1960) has >> "exactually", but More Annotated Alice (1990) has "exactly". neither >> has an annotation on this word. A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:03:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:03:18 -0800 Subject: "bait and switch" Message-ID: Buried in the flap about SpongeBob SquarePants, which hit the papers on Thursday (1/20/05), is the following from Paul Batura, assistant to James C. Dobson at Focus on the Family: "We see the video as an insidious means by which the organization [the We Are Family Foundation] is manipulating and potentially brainwashing kids. It's a classic bait and switch." (from the NYT, p. A12) Most of the flap has concerned Dobson's claim that the music video, starring cartoon characters and created to teach elementary school children about multiculturalism, promotes homosexuality. According to Nile Rodgers, the founder of the foundation, nothing in the video or its accompanying materials refers to sexual orientation, nor does the video mention the "tolerance pledge" (borrowed from the Southern Poverty Law Center) that appears on the foundation's web site; the pledge counsels tolerance for "sexual identity", among a variety of other things. The Focus on the Family position seems to be that the video is "pro-homosexual" (Dobson's word) because it will lead its young viewers to the website and so to a mention of respect for "sexual identity" (not further explained), a mention that transparently (to Dobson's way of thinking) furthers the homosexual agenda; or perhaps that counseling tolerance in general terms is covert advocacy of homosexuality and therefore reprehensible. But that dubious reasoning isn't what I'm interested in here. My interest is in the expression "bait and switch" as applied the association between the video and the homosexual agenda. This is a *big* extension of the meaning of the expression. Your classic bait and switch is, in the words of AHD4, "a sales tactic in which a bargain-priced item is used to attract customers who are then encouraged to purchase a more expensive similar item." Batura's use preserves the component of deception, the assertion that one thing is offered (but not specifically for sale) and another provided (but in addition to, rather than instead of, the first), and the presupposition that the thing provided is in some way unsatisfactory (but morally offensive rather than expensive). You can get from AHD4 to Batura, but it's a long trip. I'd guess that Batura settled on "bait and switch" as a vivid alternative to "deception" or "hidden agenda", without thinking through the details. Are there other occurrences of such extended uses of this expression? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:15:14 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0600 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: > ~~~~~~~~ > >an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any > >light to shed on "exactually"? > > ************ Just an obvious comment; In "exactly"and "actually" we see partial phonetic overlap ("act" and "-ly" in both). So "actually" was partially grafted onto "exactly", producing "exactually." In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah song contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see partial phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" was grafted onto "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with the loss of the -"tory" ("satisfactory"). Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. Gerald Cohen From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Jan 23 19:42:00 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:42:00 -0500 Subject: ANS Presentations in SF Chronicle Message-ID: The highly interesting "Queer Names of Stage, Screen and Fiction" presentations of the American Names Society at the recent conference in Oakland are covered today in the San Francisco Chronicle: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/23/LVGT7ASCMR1.DTL Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:44:53 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:44:53 -0800 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted Message-ID: it started with a story in the Economist ("Corpus colossal") about linguists using the world wide web as a source of data, with favorable mention of the Language Log: http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3576374 mark liberman duly reported this in LL: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001818.html and then, this morning, LL was slashdotted. piles of comments in no time at all, most of them just "blather" (to quote mark liberman in e-mail): http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/01/23/0311209.shtml geoff pullum has already chosen to reply to one of the comments: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001829.html this was from someone posting as "phaln": ----- It came to me that the English language was in deep trouble when people started saying "rotfl" and "lol" in person. ----- pullum sensibly notes that there is absolutely no need for alarm here. my own favorite of the comments i've read so far -- my enthusiasm for reading them waned rapidly -- is one from "Dracos", which begins: ----- I think that for most of the 20th century, English, and most languages in the industrialized world, was largely static, dominated by the written word which was dominated by proper grammar. Since WWII, popular culture and faster communications have increasingly exposed us to local vernaculars, mostly through radio and television. The written word lagged behind in its cultural evolution. ----- an interesting reading of history. i also like that first sentence, which illustrates the trouble that parentheticals can cause for subject-verb agreement; neither "was" nor "were" is really satisfactory, and the sentence should have been reshaped to avoid the problem. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 23 19:59:00 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:59:00 -0800 Subject: ANS Presentations in SF Chronicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > The highly interesting "Queer Names of Stage, Screen and Fiction" > presentations of the American Names Society at the recent conference in > Oakland are covered today in the San Francisco Chronicle... good coverage. but just to be picky, it's American Name Society (singular Name). the Chron story has it wrong, and grant has reproduced this small error. arnold, knowing how hard it is to remember that it's the Berkeley Linguistics Society, but the Chicago Linguistic Society (and the Linguistic Society of America) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 20:19:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:19:45 EST Subject: "Here's Johnny!" (1962) (Johnny Carson dies) Message-ID: Former late night king Johnny Carson has died. ... The famous introduction to the tonight show was, "And now, heeere's Johnny!" This was voiced by Ed McMahon. "Here's Johnny!" was further popularized by a creepy Jack Nicholson in the Stephen King-based movie, THE SHINING (1980), by director Stanley Kubrick. ... Fred Shapiro should include the phrase. Johnny Carson trademarked it, but several "johnny" manufacturers also tried to trademark it. The case eventually went to court and Johnny Carson won. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Other 37 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=487677072&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106510963&c lientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 3, 1965. p. D9 (1 page) ... HERE--Johnny Carson hosts Tonight Show from Burbank at 11:15 p.m. ... _Carson Readies 'Fun Romp'_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=496926552&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106510 706&clientId=65882) JOHN L SCOTT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 19, 1966. p. C9 (1 page) ... Once a year Johnny Carson deserts his Tonight show on TV for a sojourn at Hotel Sahara in Las Vegas. So this evening the familiar introduction, "And now, here's Johnny," will come piping out of Congo Room speakers as the comedian begins what he terms his "midsummer fun romp." ... ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark HEEERE'S JOHNNY! Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 041. US 107. G & S: ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES-NAMELY, THE RENDERING OF ENTERTAINMENT TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC BY WAY OF PERSONAL PERFORMANCES AT SHOWS SUCH AS BY MONOLOGUES, COMEDY ROUTINES AND THE HOSTING OF GUEST APPEARANCES OF OTHERS. FIRST USE: 19621001. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19621001 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73186474 Filing Date September 21, 1978 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition December 11, 1979 Registration Number 1149180 Registration Date March 24, 1981 Owner (REGISTRANT) CARSON, JOHN W. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 270 N. CANON DR. BEVERLY HILLS CALIFORNIA 94708 Attorney of Record BUSHKIN, GAIMS, GAINES & JONAS Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date March 30, 2002 ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark HERE'S JOHNNY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 011. US 013. G & S: PORTABLE CHEMICAL TOILETS. FIRST USE: 19760511. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19760511 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73091178 Filing Date June 21, 1976 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition December 28, 1976 Owner (APPLICANT) HERE'S JOHNNY PORTABLE TOILETS, INC. CORPORATION MICHIGAN 26750 PARK COURT MADISON HEIGHTS MICHIGAN 48071 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 25, 1985 ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark HERE'S JOHNNY Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: Wearing Apparel-Namely, Suits, Sport Coats, Jackets, Slacks, Vests, Belts, Tuxedos, Sweaters, Shirts, All Weather Coats, Headwear, Neckwear, Sleepwear, Swimwear, Scarves, Ascots, Underwear, Hosiery and Shoes. FIRST USE: 19710200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19710200 (CANCELLED) IC 003. US 051 052. G & S: Cologne, Aftershave Lotion, All Weather Skin Protective Lotion and Shower Soap. FIRST USE: 19771007. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19771007 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73188317 Filing Date October 5, 1978 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition February 21, 1984 Registration Number 1277658 Registration Date May 15, 1984 Owner (REGISTRANT) Johnny Carson Apparel, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE P.O. Box 1121 Buffalo NEW YORK 14240 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Robert M. Newbury Prior Registrations 0188317;0903927;1140161 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date October 23, 1990 ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark JOHNNY'S HERE! Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RENTING AND PUMPING PORTABLE TOILETS. FIRST USE: 19840515. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19840515 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 73505643 Filing Date October 26, 1984 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition October 22, 1985 Registration Number 1378554 Registration Date January 14, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) JOHNNY'S HERE, INC. CORPORATION MICHIGAN 50575 RYAN ROAD UTICA MICHIGAN 48087 Attorney of Record ALLEN M. KRASS Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 4, 1992 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 20:21:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:21:04 EST Subject: "Here's Johnny!" (1962) (Johnny Carson dies) Message-ID: Forgot the joke! Johnny Carson was once asked what he'd like written on his tombstone... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 23 20:39:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:39:08 -0500 Subject: "bait and switch" In-Reply-To: <711F4581-6D71-11D9-8888-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0800 1/23/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >... >I'd guess that Batura settled on "bait and switch" as a vivid >alternative to "deception" or "hidden agenda", without thinking through >the details. Are there other occurrences of such extended uses of this >expression? > That is curious. In recent political contexts, I've more often come across "bait and switch" in op-ed pieces from the left, or at least from those critical of the current administration and its policies. Economist Paul Krugman in particular seems very font of this turn, as applied especially (but not only) to the handling of Social Security and tax cuts. Nexis turns up 11 hits of "bait and switch" (not necessarily requiring the propinquity of an actual conjoined NP, as the first example shows) from Krugman op-ed columns or, in one case, a piece by him for the Magazine. Some random examples appear below. But clearly these are all much more conventional applications of the figure than the one involving Messrs. SpongeBob and Batura. I wonder if there are enough critics of Bush et al. who follow Krugman in this accusation to have inspired Batura to apply the same term for their own ends, whether or not the circumstances justify it. larry ===== But it's even worse than that. Before Greenspan became Fed chairman, he headed a commission that recommended changes in Social Security to secure its future. The most important recommendation, adopted by Congress, was for an increase in the payroll tax -- a regressive tax that falls much more heavily on lower- and middle-income families than it does on the well-off. The ostensible purpose was to generate a surplus within the Social Security system, building up a trust fund to pay benefits once the baby boomers retire. That was the *bait*; now Greenspan has pulled the *switch*. The sequence looks like this: he pushed through an increase in taxes on working Americans, generating a Social Security surplus. Then he used the overall surplus, mainly coming from Social Security, to argue for tax cuts that deliver very little relief to most people but are worth a lot to those making more than $300,000 a year. And now that those tax cuts have contributed to a soaring deficit, he wants to maintain the tax cuts while cutting Social Security benefits. He never said, ''Let's raise taxes and cut benefits for working families so that we can give big tax cuts to the rich!'' But that's the end result of his advice. ====== Last week The Washington Post got hold of an Office of Management and Budget memo that directed federal agencies to prepare for post-election cuts in programs that George Bush has been touting on the campaign trail. These include nutrition for women, infants and children; Head Start; and homeland security. The numbers match those on a computer printout leaked earlier this year -- one that administration officials claimed did not reflect policy. Beyond the routine mendacity, the case of the leaked memo points us to a larger truth: whatever they may say in public, administration officials know that sustaining Mr. Bush's tax cuts will require large cuts in popular government programs. And for the vast majority of Americans, the losses from these cuts will outweigh any gains from lower taxes. It has long been clear that the Bush administration's claim that it can simultaneously pursue war, large tax cuts and a ''compassionate'' agenda doesn't add up. Now we have direct confirmation that the White House is engaged in **bait and switch**, that it intends to pursue a not at all compassionate agenda after this year's election. That agenda is to impose Dooh Nibor economics -- Robin Hood in reverse. The end result of current policies will be a large-scale transfer of income from the middle class to the very affluent, in which about 80 percent of the population will lose and the bulk of the gains will go to people with incomes of more than $200,000 per year. ============ And the reason Social Security is in fairly good shape is that during the 1980's the Greenspan commission persuaded Congress to increase the payroll tax, which supports the program. The payroll tax is regressive: it falls much more heavily on middle- and lower-income families than it does on the rich. In fact, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates, families near the middle of the income distribution pay almost twice as much in payroll taxes as in income taxes. Yet people were willing to accept a regressive tax increase to sustain Social Security. Now the joke's on them. Mr. Greenspan pushed through an increase in taxes on working Americans, generating a Social Security surplus. Then he used that surplus to argue for tax cuts that deliver very little relief to most people, but are worth a lot to those making more than $300,000 a year. And now that those tax cuts have contributed to a soaring deficit, he wants to cut Social Security benefits. The point, of course, is that if anyone had tried to sell this package honestly -- ''Let's raise taxes and cut benefits for working families so we can give big tax cuts to the rich!'' -- voters would have been outraged. So the class warriors of the right engaged in **bait-and-switch** ============ At one level, this pattern of cuts is standard operating procedure. Just about every apparent promise of financial generosity this administration has made (other than those involving tax cuts for top brackets and corporate contracts) has turned out to be nonoperational. No Child Left Behind got left behind -- or at least left without funds. AmeriCorps got praised in the State of the Union address, then left high and dry in the budget that followed. New York's firefighters and policemen got a photo-op with the president, but very little money. For that matter, it's clear that New York will never see the full $20 billion it was promised for rebuilding. Why shouldn't soldiers find themselves subject to the same kind of **bait and switch**?. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 23 20:44:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:44:40 -0500 Subject: ANS Presentations in SF Chronicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:42 PM -0500 1/23/05, Grant Barrett wrote: >The highly interesting "Queer Names of Stage, Screen and Fiction" >presentations of the American Names Society at the recent conference in >Oakland are covered today in the San Francisco Chronicle: > >http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/23/LVGT7ASCMR1.DTL > Nice coverage, despite the reattribution of the WOTY vote to the "Linguistic Society". Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 21:02:59 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:02:59 EST Subject: Bob's Your Uncle (1945) Message-ID: Not much new in a "Bob's you uncle" search. The British Library online is still awful. The 1890 Chicago Tribune horseracing citation is not what we're looking for. Paper of Record has a 1945 citation, if that helps any. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _FAME FOR UNCLE BOB; He Is the Winner of the Great American Derby. THE MILE AND A HALF IN 2:55 3/4. Thirty-five Thousand Spectators at Washington Park. FASHION AT THE CLUB-HOUSE. Society People Drive to the Track in Stylish Turnouts. AT THE GRAND STAND--THE INCIDENTS. How Uncle Bob Did It. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=430209422&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106511778&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune. Jun 22, 1890. p. 1 (1 page) ... _'The Captive Heart'; Integrity Marks Film About POWs _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=293169602&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD& RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106512691&clientId=65882) By Richard L. Coe. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 10, 1947. p. 13 (1 page) ... There are the lads who say "Bob's your uncle," and who sing that song which one will always identify with World War II--"Bless 'Em All." ... ... (PAPER OF RECORD) ... 25 July 1945, THE MAPLE LEAF--UK EDITION, pg. 2, col. 5: ...he liked the idea very much, wrapped up the handsome, silk-lined box that holes the gloves, and--as they say--Bob's your uncle. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 23 22:06:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:06:47 -0500 Subject: (high-)pressured Message-ID: * high-pressured, a. (OED2 1947) 1915 _Elyria Evening Telegram_ (Ohio) 19 Oct. 4/4 Tea and coffee come pretty near to being Nature's beneficent contribution to the welfare of the high-pressured, so to speak, human race. 1919 _Coshocton Tribune_ (Ohio) 16 Sep. 8 (advt.) For every "flashlight" ... use an Eveready Tungsten battery -- the high-pressured power plant that shoots out the long, strong stream of all-seeing light. 1920 _Sheboygan Press_ (Wisc.) 14 Dec. 8 (advt.) Friede's Clothes Shop whips into the gap with unmuzzled guns and decks cleared for action! In 9 of the biggest high-pressured selling days ever experienced in Sheboygan. * high-pressure, v. 'to coerce (someone) to do something' (OED2 1962) 1924 _Los Angeles Times_ 20 Jul. V-2/4 The real-estate dealers cannot afford to antagonize prospective customers by creating ill feeling among a few who have been "high-pressured" into buying. 1927 _Los Angeles Times_ 9 Dec. 7 (advt.) You know you'll not be "high pressured" into buying a higher priced suit when you come to Brooks. 1928 _Decatur Herald_ (Ill.) 28 Mar. 6/3 They advertise how thoroughly some signal salesman has high pressured the president and boards of trustees of little towns which didn't need a single light, and all but had one of them on every corner. * high-pressuring, vbl. n. (not in OED) 1936 _Clearfield Progress_ (Pa.) 30 Nov. 5/6 When Navy trimmed the Army by a touchdown Saturday as a direct result of getting the ball on the West Pointers' three-yard l|ne through such an interference penalty, it probably was the "payoff" penalty which will lead to "high-pressuring" for alteration of the ruling. 1937 _Chicago Tribune_ 14 Feb. B10/1 The one-sided conversation was one of the smoothest jobs of high-pressuring you ever would want to hear. * pressure, v. 'to coerce (someone) to do something' (OED2 1939) [different sense?] 1933 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 5 Jun. 6/7 Head Play broke from outside of the starting gate, lost some ground when moving into the lead, held on gamely when pressured by Gold Basis, but faltered when the real racing began. 1934 _Lincoln Star_ (Neb.) 2 Feb. 6/5 A good many years ago Arthur told a small group of us that his friends had never "pressured" him into anything. 1934 _Washington Post_ 11 Aug. 9/3 One leading banker objected strongly to having been pressured into selling the RFC $250,000 of preferred stock in his bank. * pressure, v. 'press, force (something)' 1935 _New York Times_ 17 Nov. 27/1 The planned attempt more and more to shift the tax burden for the support of the State government from special privilege to the backs of men and women who live from the wages of their labor, should be countered before more shifting is pressured into law. 1936 _Nevada State Journal_ 25 Jun. 12/2 (heading) Meanwhile Bill Green's bill was pressured through Senate. * pressured, ppl. a. 'pressurized' (and related senses) 1920 _Chicago Tribune_ 29 Mar. 5/5 When the tornado passes over the roof of a house the higher pressured air inside explodes. 1928 _Los Angeles Times_ 13 Oct. II-2/8 As soon as the drill hole is made the balls will be injected into the pressured casing and are expected to be forced to the surface by the gas and clog there. 1942 _Los Angeles Times_ 27 Feb. A/2 On the other hand, if the cabin is pressured, it is vulnerable to bullets. 1943 _Clearfield Progress_ (Pa.) 3 Jul. 2/5 Rubber experts say that tires properly pressured at all times and never driven at excessive speed should last as long as the car itself. 1944 _News_ (Frederick, Md.) 14 Feb. 8/5 At the height of the fire, while firemen were attempting to carry out a gas range, a tank of pressured gas, half buried at the corner of the cabin, exploded with a loud report, shortly after the roof had caved in on it. 1944 _Berkshire Evening Eagle_ (Mass.) 22 Jun. 3/7 After many variations Boeing settled on a device of tapping air for the cabin from an engine pipe carrying pressured air to the carburetor. 1944 _New York Times_ 26 Jun. 23/8 Pressured cabins will permit comfortable flying above bad weather at about four miles altitude. 1947 _New York Times_ 8 Jul. 29/3 Pressure-cooked beans kept 70 per cent of their ascorbic acid, as did those that were steamed. ... As for the color, the "pressured" beans were almost as green as when raw, while those that were steamed or cooked in a snugly covered kettle lost most of their green and became yellowish. * pressured, ppl. a. '(of a person) under pressure; stressed' (OED2 1976) 1951 _Los Angeles Times_ 29 May II-5/6 Meantime, though, the reader will have met ... the men who are so pressured that they are dishonest in spite of themselves. 1952 _Chicago Tribune_ 7 Jun. 8/4 And so there's economic war / While each the other passes, / With liquidation coming for / The pressured middle classes. 1954 _Washington Post_ 27 Jun. (American Weekly) 9/1 In fact he's super normal until pressured. And then he blows up. [Humphrey Bogart on Captain Queeg] --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 23:00:12 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:00:12 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(LONG); Asked you to jump (1928) Message-ID: NY POST ON "BIRTH OF A NATION" I walked to the New York Public Library. It's open on Sunday. But, of course, it was closed. There was not even a sign on the door. So I splurged $2 on a subway to NYU. I don't see the quotation here...Way back, about 20 years ago, I wrote a play about the Ku Klux Klan and Plessy V. Ferguson called A FOOL'S ERRAND, based on the work of Albion Tourgee. It was about as successful as my etymology career. NEW YORK POST, March 4, 1915, pg. 9, col. 3: _"Birth of a Nation."_ An appeal to race prejudice as subtle and malicious as any that has been made in New York, a thrilling historic spectacle of the battles and life of the days of the Civil War, and an explanation of Southern feeling in the reconstruction days in defence of the Ku Klux Klan which terrorized negroes during that period--these were the things presented to the spectators who filled the Liberty Theatre last evening for the first presentation of the motion-picture drama, "The Birth of a Nation." As an achievement in motion-picture photography upon a tremendous scale, surprisingly effective in artistic realization, the film is as remarkable as it is audacious in its characterization of the negro as a primitive brute, either vicious or childlike, only to be controlled by violence. People were moved to cheers, hisses, laughter, and tears, apparently unconscious, and subdued, by tense interest in the play; they clapped when the masked riders took vengeance on negroes, and they clapped when the hero refused to shake the hand of a mulatto who has risen by political intrigue to become lieutenant-governor. This remark, made by a typical New Yorker leaving the theatre, characterizes the sentiment which was expressed to much of the comment: "THat show certainly does make you hate those blacks. And if it gets that effect on me, when I don't care anything about it, imagine what it would be in the South, with a man whose family was mixed up in it. It makes you feel as if you'd do the same thing." That is the element which mars one of the most ambitious and successful picture (Col. 4--ed.) dramas which has yet been attempted; and it is an element which does not seem necessary to the effectiveness of the film. To show the fact that there were individual outrages which roused the Southern whites of the 60's to organized violence, it does not appear necessary to characterize a race as either so vicious or so simple-minded that extermination or feudal control were the only methods of managing them; and this is the conclusion of "The Birth of a Nation." The blame for much of the trouble is shown to have lain upon the unscrupulous or misguided white political leaders of the North, who went to excess in their power to institute radical measures for negro freedom and equality of right. Stoneman, known really under another name, the Congressional leader, who held the reins of influence after the assassination of Lincoln, is represented as the cause of reconstruction turbulence. The war scenes in the first half of the play have been photographed with striking realism. Troops charging, artillery trains galloping, flags waving, shells bursting over barricades, the flow of battle over a field miles in length, are shown in full detail, and immediately after the excitement of the charge there is the sight of trenches full of torn and tangled bodies. The truth of the horror of war is not forgotten in presenting its fascination. The assassination of Linsoln has also been well reproduced. THe scene in the theatre, with the play, "Our American COusin," going forward in the stage, is shown in careful accordance with the historical accounts of it. How lincoln's guard left his post to get a view of the play; how Booth, waiting in the rear of another box, slipped through the door in the interval and fired at the President as he watched the play, are all seen. Booth's leap to the stage and his escape in the sudden excitement are faithfully portrayed, amid an equal excitement on the part of the spectators of to-day reviewing the scene. The second part of the play, in which attempted outrages by a renegade negro and the mulatto protege of Stoneman upon the white girls, and the election injustices (Col. 5--ed.) in which whites were refused the vote and in which negroes gained control of legislative power, with the resulting intense hatred and friction between the races, are shown, is the part which roused the emotion of the audience. A long chase of a white girl by a negro, ending with the girl's suicide by throwing herself over a cliff, called forth many excited whispered comments, and from them on to the end of the film there was ready applause for anything derogatory to negroes and for the activity of the Ku Klux Klan. Thomas Dixon, author of "The Clansman," upon which the picture-drama is based, was called, before the curtain last evening and made a short speech. In introducing D. W. Griffith, the producer of the pictures, he declared that none but the son of a Confederate soldier could have represented the spirit of his book. -------------------------------------------------------------- IF FRED SHAPIRO ASKED YOU TO JUMP OFF THE GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE, YOU'D DO THAT, TOO? This was popular in the 1960s. I remember Saturday Night Live's Jane Curtin playing a mother and saying this, about 1978. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Film Actor Leads Band and Likes It Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 9, 1928. p. C13 (2 pages): Pg. 31: "Those were glorious days," he recalled. "Never was there a more considerate director, a finer man than Frank Boggs. If he had lived, he would have been another D. W. Griffith. When Frank asked you to jump off a cliff, you did it. If Frank said it was all right, it had to be." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ("asked you to jump") Syracuse Herald Wednesday, September 17, 1930 Syracuse, New York ...YOU do a uskcd mo If Holnnlo ASKED YOU TO JUMP oil roof 1 .suppose YOU'd do.....loo Now I'd like TO know v.ho la TO p.iy for UK- damage YOU Have done TO.. Chronicle Telegram Tuesday, July 14, 1936 Elyria, Ohio ...DJS face reddpr.ing. voice anger ASKED YOU TO JUMP in cab. rniste n.....sw that man demanded briiUy. Eeyut ASKED Careive shook his head. WHERE did.. Appleton Post Crescent Thursday, September 18, 1930 Appleton, Wisconsin ...a "Hennie ASKED me TO." "And if Hennie ASKED YOU TO JUMP off the roof I suppose.....Now I'd like TO know who is going TO pay for the damage YOU have done TO.. Dixon Evening Telegraph Thursday, February 05, 1953 Dixon, Illinois ...rAr-V WE TOOK WELL-SAY A TACK- oimjRe ASKED YOU TO JUMP KEAL SWEET ID FACEStR.....we Contempt of court doesn't mean much TO a piece of TOwn Qnd City Answer TO.. Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, February 05, 1953 Syracuse, New York ...WINDS UP OJ THIS N'OTE- YOUR ANOTHER ASKED YOU TO JUMP N TWE LAKE IT-SHEfe.....has been subjected TO no one ever has ASKED him whether or not he was named TO.. Chronicle Telegram Tuesday, July 14, 1936 Elyria, Ohio ...aud children.. Ill MrrlM 411 DlckfTOi ASKED YOU TO JUMP m What's YOUr name.....than ni pi SIMPLE TO SEW Railroad Bids ASKED 12 No Buyers Vlnn -Xo ore could.. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Jan 23 23:29:08 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:29:08 -0500 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted In-Reply-To: <40C9C53E-6D77-11D9-8888-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2005, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > .... and then, this morning, LL was slashdotted. ... slashdotted? ? Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 23 23:37:43 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:37:43 -0500 Subject: Barking up the wrong tree (1832); No names, no pack-drill (1924) Message-ID: BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE "Barking up the wrong tree" came up in Dave Wilton's Word Origins page. An 1833 date was cited. Need I remind everyone that "barking up the wrong tree" is the WOTY for 1832 in the modern classic, AMERICAN IN SO MANY WORDS, by David Barnhart and Allan Metcalf. (DAVE WILTON'S WORD ORIGINS) Barking up the wrong tree The earliest cite I can find for this is 1833, Davy Crockett, no less, from Sketches and Eccentricities. (Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs). I told him that he reminded me of the meanest thing on God's earth, an old coon dog, barking up the wrong tree. This suggests an American origin. Anybody have anything earlier on it (assuming that Crockett didn't coin the phrase himself)? (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) March 27, 1834 SunBarking up the Wrong Tree May 22, 1832 Vermont Gazette From the Clinton, Miss Flag September 17, 1835 Sun Barking up the Wrong Tree Headline: From the Clinton, Miss Flag; Paper: Vermont Gazette; Date: 1832-05-22; Vol: L; Iss: 2546; Page: [1]; The Governor, we apprehend, will find himself like our old friend, Davy Crockett--"barking up the wrong tree." (LITERATURE ONLINE) Hall, James, 1793-1868 [Author Page] Legends of the West . . . (1832) 459Kb Legends of the West . . . [Durable URL for this text] Found 2 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] THE DIVINING ROD. [Durable URL for this text] ...to go to the devil; you are barking up the wrong tree , Johnson,---take a fresh start, and try to get... ...am sorry to find you are still barking up the wrong tree . Blank Page. Hall, James, 1793-1868 [Author Page] Tales of the Border . . . (1835) 426Kb Tales of the Border . . . [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] THE SILVER MINE. A TALE OF MISSOURI. [Durable URL for this text] Section [Durable URL for this text] ...dog on a pest trail---but he is barking up the wrong tree this time." He now ordered his horse. "Sorry to... Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Page] Westward Ho! , Volume 1 (1832) 371Kb Westward Ho! , Volume 1 [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] WESTWARD HO! [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER XIV. A voyage, a story, and a land adventure. [Durable URL for this text] ...country; so I thought I'd set him barking up the wrong tree a little. And I told him some stories that... Pike, Albert, 1809-1891 [Author Page] Prose Sketches and Poems, Written in the Western Country . . . (1834) 481Kb Prose Sketches and Poems, Written in the Western Country . . . [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY IN THE PRAIRIE. [Durable URL for this text] ...but they, to use another western phrase, `barked up the wrong tree,' when they got hold of Tom Smith. The Bald... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Ohio Repository Friday, May 03, 1833 Canton, Ohio ...ler, Hndinj; Ihnt he had barked up the WRONG TREE in that volfi, now .navslhc.. Peoples Press Friday, October 02, 1835 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...thai" they have barked up the WRONG TREE." WILLIAM McCLEAF, WILLIAM.. Adams Sentinel Monday, March 17, 1834 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania ...d says Gineial you are barkin' up the WRONG TREE this for I jest see that jump.....niggers to work culling- down the ilns TREE stood right along- side an old.. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) The silver mine Anonymous. The Illinois Monthly Magazine (1830-1832). Cincinnati: May 1832. Vol. 2, Iss. 20; p. 365 (10 pages) Pg. 374: "It all comes of trusting too much to uncle Mose," thought he; "the old man used to be as true on the scent of money, as an old 'coon dog on a pest trail--but his is barking up the wrong tree this time." -------------------------------------------------------------- NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL I searched the TIMES (London). The Times, Monday, May 05, 1924; pg. 7; Issue 43643; col F Selfridge & Co. Ltd. Category: Display Advertising: For instance, only the other day I learned that when one or two men who are very much in the public eye, received appointments, ("no names no pack drill") they immediately turned to the "Ready-for-Service departments for complete new outfits, in which to grace their new posts. (Ad for the Man's Shop at Selfridge & Co. Ltd.--ed.) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Jan 23 23:38:35 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:38:35 -0500 Subject: horse's neck In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D01B498B2@rdec-exch8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: > horse's neck (OED: "horse's neck slang (orig. U.S.), a beverage of ginger >ale flavoured with lemon-peel, with or without the addition of whisky, A much better version is seltzer or club soda + a twist (I prefer lime to lemon) + a dash of Angostura bitters. (Whisky? Mileage varies.) Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 23 23:52:51 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:52:51 -0500 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 06:29:08PM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2005, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > > .... and then, this morning, LL was slashdotted. ... > > slashdotted? Slashdot, http://slashdot.org , a website devoted to tech news and discussions thereof. When Slashdot mentions another site, that site tends to get a huge amount of traffic, so quickly that it can overwhelm the target site, sometimes causing it to crash or at least become unavailable. This is called "getting slashdotted". Jesse Sheidlower From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Jan 24 00:00:41 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:00:41 -0500 Subject: Language Log is slashdotted Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Language Log is slashdotted > Slashdot, http://slashdot.org , a website devoted to tech news > and discussions thereof. When Slashdot mentions another site, > that site tends to get a huge amount of traffic, so quickly > that it can overwhelm the target site, sometimes causing it to > crash or at least become unavailable. This is called "getting > slashdotted". > > Jesse Sheidlower Maybe someone could slashdot Barry and his site, and he might not come up for air for weeks! SC > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 00:37:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:37:13 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(LONG); Asked you to jump (1928) In-Reply-To: <157CDDD4.1AAE552E.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:00 PM -0500 1/23/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >NY POST ON "BIRTH OF A NATION" > >I walked to the New York Public Library. It's open on Sunday. But, >of course, it was closed. There was not even a sign on the door. > >So I splurged $2 on a subway to NYU. I don't see the quotation >here...Way back, about 20 years ago, I wrote a play about the Ku >Klux Klan and Plessy V. Ferguson called A FOOL'S ERRAND, based on >the work of Albion Tourgee. It was about as successful as my >etymology career. > > >NEW YORK POST, March 4, 1915, pg. 9, col. 3: > >_"Birth of a Nation."_ > >An appeal to race prejudice as subtle and malicious as any that has >been made in New York, a thrilling historic spectacle of the battles >and life of the days of the Civil War, and an explanation of >Southern feeling in the reconstruction days in defence of the Ku >Klux Klan which terrorized negroes during that period--these were >the things presented to the spectators who filled the Liberty >Theatre last evening for the first presentation of the >motion-picture drama, "The Birth of a Nation." As an achievement in >motion-picture photography upon a tremendous scale, surprisingly >effective in artistic realization, the film is as remarkable as it >is audacious in its characterization of the negro as a primitive >brute, either vicious or childlike, only to be controlled by >violence. > >People were moved to cheers, hisses, laughter, and tears, apparently >unconscious, and subdued, by tense interest in the play; they >clapped when the masked riders took vengeance on negroes, and they >clapped when the hero refused to shake the hand of a mulatto who has >risen by political intrigue to become lieutenant-governor. This >remark, made by a typical New Yorker leaving the theatre, >characterizes the sentiment which was expressed to much of the >comment: "THat show certainly does make you hate those blacks. And >if it gets that effect on me, when I don't care anything about it, >imagine what it would be in the South, with a man whose family was >mixed up in it. It makes you feel as if you'd do the same thing." > Of course that was then (although I can imagine the same objection leveled in the Post of my own childhood, quite a liberal rag at the time). Anymore, the Post would probably defend the racial portrayals in BOAN. >-------------------------------------------------------------- >IF FRED SHAPIRO ASKED YOU TO JUMP OFF THE GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE, >YOU'D DO THAT, TOO? > >This was popular in the 1960s. I remember Saturday Night Live's Jane >Curtin playing a mother and saying this, about 1978. > and in the 1950s, especially if you were growing up in Washington Heights, almost in the shadow of the bridge. But I've also long heard the alternate version involving the Empire State Building, which must have implied a greater degree of gullibility, given the relative difference in the heights of the two structures. Larry From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 24 01:04:20 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:04:20 +0100 Subject: Polari In-Reply-To: <20050123235253.51F45198C@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Article about Polari http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=entertainmentNews&storyID=658899 Paul _________________________________________ Paul Frank English translation >From Chinese: social sciences and humanities >From German, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Dutch: sinology e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 01:24:12 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:24:12 -0500 Subject: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT Message-ID: From a polyreview of crime books by Marilyn Stasio in today's NYTBR. Can we assume Fulmer's attribution of "jass" for the musical genre in "turn of the 20th century" New Orleans is an anachronism? Of course we don't know from the review exactly how far (if at all) past the actual turn of the century the story and word are set. Larry ================ The New York Times January 23, 2005 Sunday SECTION: Section 7; Column 1; Book Review Desk; CRIME; Pg. 21 BYLINE: By Marilyn Stasio Music is the pulsating idiom of David Fulmer's hot-blooded JASS (Harcourt, $23), the sequel to ''Chasing the Devil's Tail'' (2001) and another voyeuristic tour of Storyville, New Orleans's red-light district during its heyday at the turn of the 20th century. Valentin St. Cyr, the private security agent for the underworld ''King of Storyville,'' is still keeping the lid on violence in the fancy bordellos and flashy gambling establishments of the district. But when the young piano man who calls himself Jelly Roll Morton tips off St. Cyr that someone is killing black musicians who are crossing Basin Street to play the new ''jass'' music in white bands, he starts making the rounds of the lowdown dives and dance halls where that raw and raunchy music is being played. Fulmer's dialogue adds its lyric voice to the gutbucket sounds and ragtime rhythms pouring out of the bars and up from the streets. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 01:50:31 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:50:31 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(LONG); Asked you to jump (1928) In-Reply-To: <157CDDD4.1AAE552E.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > So I splurged $2 on a subway to NYU. I don't see the quotation > here... Thanks to Barry for his help on this! The inaccuracy of the claim that the Wilson "history with lightning" quote appeared in 1915 is significant beyond just the matter of first use; it supports the idea that Wilson never said the quote altogether, since I think other claimed or documented appearances of the quote don't start until the 1930s. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 01:50:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:50:58 -0500 Subject: Coinage of "Movie" (1915); Re: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT Message-ID: JASS Yes, it's another anachronism by another author who doesn't know better. I spent many hours looking for "jass" or "jazz" in the New Orleans newspapers. When "jazz" was finally discussed in 1917, it was a new word to New Orleans. My post (to the old ADS-L archives in 1996) has long since been destroyed. -------------------------------------------------------------- MOVIE I was looking for the "Birth of a Nation" quote in film magazines when I saw this. I'll have to go to the NYPL to look at PHOTOPLAY. "Movie" was coined? By PHOTOPLAY? 20 March 1915, THE MOVING PICTURE WORLD, pg. 1749, col. 1: One thousand editors in the United States, asked by the Photoplay Magazine as to whether the word "movie" shall be entered in the dictionaries and used as pure English, have decided in the affirmative. Of the 733 who voted, 511 voted "yes" and 222 "no." 27 March 1915, THE MOVING PICTURE WORLD, pg. 1912, col. 1: CHICAGO LETTER BY JAS. S. McQUADE _Regarding the Childish Word, "Movie"_ IN a brevity in my Chicago letter last week, it was stated that out of 733 editors throughout the country who cast a vote for or against the use of the coined word "movie," 511 voted "yes," and 222 "no." It is to be regretted that the reasons for their voting for or against were not given and printed. Within the past week I have read an article in one CHicago newspaper in which the hope was expressed that the word "movie" would be retained, because it comes in so handily in the writing of newspaper headings! In another instance a writer was gleeful over the fact that even the infant, among the first words mastered by him, used the word "movie," and that "movie" was also the children's word and so had come to stay. But somehow, much as I still like the old nursery rhymes and love to hear children repeat them, I am of the opinion that it is best to put away tenderly childish things when one has reached manhood or womanhood. The coinage of "movie" was most assuredly childish. It stands for "moving picture." The coined word, please note, is not taken from the name of the thing itself, but from the qualifying word "moving." It is not at all unreasonable, therefore, to call everything which is not at rest a "movie," including the sun, moon and stars, the earth, an automobile, an airplane and the city garbage cart. Even man himself when in motion is a "movie," and so is a fly, and so is that other pestiferous insect with a name nearly alike. Is this childish word "movie," on the ground of etymology, a correct word to represent "moving picture" in our dictionaries? Is it a correct word from the common sense point of view? Is it a correct word for grown-ups to use, unless they are still fit for the nursery in mind and accomplishments? By all means let the children use "movie" to their little hearts' content; but in the name of all that is logical and customary in the making and adoption of the words of a language, let us, grown-ups, put it tenderly away. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jan 24 02:07:08 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:07:08 -0600 Subject: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT--(anachronism) Message-ID: I second Barry's rejection of this "jass" as an anachronism. There's no evidence--none, zero, zip, nada--of the term "jass" or "jazz" attested for the New Orleans music being played ca. 1900. At that time the music was simply played; the name came over a decade later and is first attested in California baseball, not New Orleans music. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:24 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT > > From a polyreview of crime books by Marilyn Stasio in today's NYTBR. Can we assume Fulmer's attribution of "jass" for the musical genre in "turn of the 20th century" New Orleans is an anachronism? Of course > we don't know from the review exactly how far (if at all) past the actual turn of the century the story and word are set. > > Larry > ================ > The New York Times > January 23, 2005 Sunday > > SECTION: Section 7; Column 1; Book Review Desk; CRIME; Pg. 21 > BYLINE: By Marilyn Stasio > > Music is the pulsating idiom of David Fulmer's hot-blooded JASS (Harcourt, $23), the sequel to ''Chasing the Devil's Tail'' (2001) and another voyeuristic tour of Storyville, New Orleans's red-light district during its heyday at the turn of the 20th century. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 02:51:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:51:11 -0500 Subject: NY Post on "Birth of a Nation" (1915)(1937) Message-ID: THE PAPERS OF WOODROW WILSON Arthur S. Link, editor Volume 32 January 1-April 16, 1915 Princeton University Press Princeton, New Jersey 1980 Pg. 267 (Footnotes): 1 Dixon (Thomas Dixon Jr.--ed.) and a projection crew showed "The Birth of a Nation" for Wilson and his family and wives of cabinet members in the East Room of the White House on the evening of February 18. There is a tradition, repeated, for example, in Raymond A. Cook, _Fire from the Flint: The Amazing Careers of Thomas Dixon_ (Winston-Salem, N. C. 1968), p. 170, that WIlson, after the showing, said to Dixon: "It is like writing history with lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true." This quotation first appears (without attribution) in all known sources and literature in Milton MacKaye, "The Birth of a Nation," _Scribner's Magazine_, CII (Nov. 1937), 69. Dixon did not use the quotation in his memoirs, "Southern Horizons" (composition date unknown). Marjorie Brown King, the only survivor among the persons at the showing in the East Room, told the Editor on June 23, 1977, that Wilson seemed lost in thought during the showing, and that he walked out of the room without saying a word when the movie was over. (Maybe I'll check the BIRTH OF A NATION file in the NYPL Lincoln Center library on Tuesday. Right after I solve the origin of "movies"--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 04:06:34 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:06:34 -0500 Subject: Coinage of "Movie" (1915); Re: "jass" < c. 1900 in today's NYT In-Reply-To: <3444151B.389EA869.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:50 PM -0500 1/23/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >JASS > >Yes, it's another anachronism by another author who doesn't know better. > >I spent many hours looking for "jass" or "jazz" in the New Orleans >newspapers. When "jazz" was finally discussed in 1917, it was a new >word to New Orleans. My post (to the old ADS-L archives in 1996) has >long since been destroyed. > Yes, I figured it was likely an anachronism. Thanks VERY much to Barry for the article below, which is just the sort of critical commentary on "illogical" coinage and lexical change I collect. This sort of truncation is precisely as "illogical" as the use of liberated "qualifying words" like "private" or "general" as truncations of "private soldier" or "general officer". But equally interesting to me is the parallel between McQuade's opposition to singling out just one thing that moves as a "movie" and Quintilian's objection to the claim that Lat. "homo" derived from "humus" (which of course it did) because after all, every creature came from the earth. larry > >27 March 1915, THE MOVING PICTURE WORLD, pg. 1912, col. 1: >CHICAGO LETTER >BY JAS. S. McQUADE > >_Regarding the Childish Word, "Movie"_ > >IN a brevity in my Chicago letter last week, it was stated that out >of 733 editors throughout the country who cast a vote for or against >the use of the coined word "movie," 511 voted "yes," and 222 "no." >It is to be regretted that the reasons for their voting for or >against were not given and printed. > >Within the past week I have read an article in one CHicago newspaper >in which the hope was expressed that the word "movie" would be >retained, because it comes in so handily in the writing of newspaper >headings! In another instance a writer was gleeful over the fact >that even the infant, among the first words mastered by him, used >the word "movie," and that "movie" was also the children's word and >so had come to stay. But somehow, much as I still like the old >nursery rhymes and love to hear children repeat them, I am of the >opinion that it is best to put away tenderly childish things when >one has reached manhood or womanhood. > >The coinage of "movie" was most assuredly childish. It stands for >"moving picture." The coined word, please note, is not taken from >the name of the thing itself, but from the qualifying word "moving." >It is not at all unreasonable, therefore, to call everything which >is not at rest a "movie," including the sun, moon and stars, the >earth, an automobile, an airplane and the city garbage cart. Even >man himself when in motion is a "movie," and so is a fly, and so is >that other pestiferous insect with a name nearly alike. > >Is this childish word "movie," on the ground of etymology, a correct >word to represent "moving picture" in our dictionaries? Is it a >correct word from the common sense point of view? Is it a correct >word for grown-ups to use, unless they are still fit for the nursery >in mind and accomplishments? > >By all means let the children use "movie" to their little hearts' >content; but in the name of all that is logical and customary in the >making and adoption of the words of a language, let us, grown-ups, >put it tenderly away. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 24 04:18:26 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:18:26 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> ~~~~~~~~ >>> an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any >>> light to shed on "exactually"? >>> > ************ > Just an obvious comment; In "exactly"and "actually" we see > partial phonetic overlap ("act" and "-ly" in both). So "actually" was > partially grafted onto "exactly", producing "exactually." > > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah > song contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see > partial phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" > was grafted onto "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with > the loss of the -"tory" ("satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. > > Gerald Cohen > "It's the truth! It's akchul! Ev'rything is sa-tis-fak-chul!" Your memory is close enough for government work, Gerald. I can't vouch for the accuracy of my pseudo-phonetic spelling, but that's certainly what it sounded like to me. -Wilson Gray From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 24 06:20:47 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:20:47 -0600 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. Which is a shame, because despite its antediluvian portrayal of 19th century Blacks, it is a good movie. ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Sun 1/23/2005 10:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > >> ~~~~~~~~ >>> an exchange with a friend on the text of Alice... anyone have any >>> light to shed on "exactually"? >>> > ************ > Just an obvious comment; In "exactly"and "actually" we see > partial phonetic overlap ("act" and "-ly" in both). So "actually" was > partially grafted onto "exactly", producing "exactually." > > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah > song contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see > partial phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" > was grafted onto "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with > the loss of the -"tory" ("satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. > > Gerald Cohen > "It's the truth! It's akchul! Ev'rything is sa-tis-fak-chul!" Your memory is close enough for government work, Gerald. I can't vouch for the accuracy of my pseudo-phonetic spelling, but that's certainly what it sounded like to me. -Wilson Gray From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 08:19:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:19:14 EST Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! Message-ID: >From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS (6th edition, 2004), pg. 222: ... NANCY ASTOR: If I were your wife I would put poison in your coffee! CHURCHILL: And if I were your husband I would drink it. Consuelo Vanderbilt Balsan _Glitter and Gold_ (1952) ... Oxford surely checked and checked again. Does Fred have this? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _IN NEW PLAYS_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101222024&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554110&clientId =65882) Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) ... These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree appeared at the Manhattan: ... Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. .. ... _HERE IN WASHINGTON_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=260085892&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554533&cl ientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1906. p. ES4 (1 page) ... "Mr. Blank, if I were your wife, I'd give you a cup of poison." "Madam," he responded, without a smile. "If you were my wife, I'd be glad to drink it." ... ... ... ... I couldn't find this in the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. I suppose Fred has it from 1951 on ProQuest. ... 23 January 2005, NEW YORK POST, pg. 41, col. 1: "IN wartime," said Winston Churchill, "truth is so precious that she should wlways be attended by a bodyguard of lies." From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 24 10:36:21 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:36:21 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <200501200631.j0K6VH56015325@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: Sounds like braided armpits (1960s Polish joke) have nothing on this: "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute ass. She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1969 From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 24 12:15:46 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:15:46 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3DDD@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.a rmy.mil> Message-ID: >And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, >since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be >released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. But the song is found in at least one of the videotape music collections by Disney. It does say "satisfactual", pronounced about as Gerald Cohen did IMHO. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 12:44:10 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:44:10 -0500 Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! In-Reply-To: <1b9.b91987a.2f260982@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New > York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) > ... > These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree > appeared at the Manhattan: > ... > Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. > Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. Great discovery, Barry. I already knew this was an old, pre-Churchillian joke, but I had it from 1923. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Mon Jan 24 13:06:36 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:06:36 +0000 Subject: Butter and Egg Man (1891) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This doesn't antedate, but the use, reinforced by 'sugar papa', is irrefutably slang: I haven't encountered 'bracelet buyer' in this context elsewhere. 1924 O.O. McIntyre ?New York Day by Day? [syndicated col.] 10 Dec. They are the boys below the scale of the heavy sugar papas and butter and egg men and are designated bracelet buyers. Jonathon Green From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 24 13:14:11 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:14:11 -0500 Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:19:14 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >_IN NEW PLAYS_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101222024&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554110&clientId >=65882) >Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New >York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) >... >These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree >appeared at the Manhattan: >... >Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. >Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. >.. >... >_HERE IN WASHINGTON_ >(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=260085892&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554533&cl >ientId=65882) >The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1906. p. ES4 (1 >page) >... >"Mr. Blank, if I were your wife, I'd give you a cup of poison." >"Madam," he responded, without a smile. "If you were my wife, I'd be glad >to drink it." Taking it back to 1900... Scored Last. Chicago Tribune, Jan 3, 1900, p. 12 "If I had a husband like you," she said, with concentrated scorn, "I'd give him poison!" "Mad'm," he rejoined, looking her over with a feeble sort of smile, "'f I had a wife like you I'd take it." [Also reprinted in: Washington Post, Jan 11, 1900. p. 6] Mutually Agreeable (from the Boston Transcript) Los Angeles Times, Jan 7, 1900, p. IM9 "If you were my husband, sir, I'd give you a dose of poison!" The man looked at her. "If I were your husband," said he, "I'd take it!" And two later iterations... Illinois Club Women Tell Stories, "the Funniest They Ever Heard." Chicago Tribune, Oct 25, 1908, p. A3 "If I were your wife I would give you poison." He turned, looked here from top to toe with deepest contempt and replied: "Well, bedad, I'd take it." Tit for Tat (from the Kansas City Independent) Washington Post, Aug 5, 1909, p. 6 "If you were my husband I'd give you poison." "Well, mum," returned the Irishman, as he puffed away at his pipe, "if you wuz me wife I'd take it." [Also reprinted in: Atlanta Constitution, Aug 25, 1910, p. 3] --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 13:15:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:15:23 -0800 Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! Message-ID: In the version I remember, from a kids' book of baseball anecdotes in 1957, the actors were an irate lady fan and a put-upon umpire. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Churchill & Mrs. Astor repartee--in 1902! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS (6th edition, 2004), pg. 222: ... NANCY ASTOR: If I were your wife I would put poison in your coffee! CHURCHILL: And if I were your husband I would drink it. Consuelo Vanderbilt Balsan _Glitter and Gold_ (1952) ... Oxford surely checked and checked again. Does Fred have this? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _IN NEW PLAYS_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101222024&SrchMode=1&sid=14&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554110&clientId =65882) Where the Laughs Come. By "A.K.". New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1902. p. 27 (1 page) ... These lines are saved from "Captain Molly," in which Elizabeth Tyree appeared at the Manhattan: ... Bunner--If I were your husband I'd give you poison. Molly--If I were your wife I'd take it. .. ... _HERE IN WASHINGTON_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=260085892&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106554533&cl ientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 30, 1906. p. ES4 (1 page) ... "Mr. Blank, if I were your wife, I'd give you a cup of poison." "Madam," he responded, without a smile. "If you were my wife, I'd be glad to drink it." ... ... ... ... I couldn't find this in the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. I suppose Fred has it from 1951 on ProQuest. ... 23 January 2005, NEW YORK POST, pg. 41, col. 1: "IN wartime," said Winston Churchill, "truth is so precious that she should wlways be attended by a bodyguard of lies." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 16:48:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:48:13 -0500 Subject: drawring, etc. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050123113548.02294b10@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:56 AM -0500 1/23/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >In first language acquisition (and early second also), children typically >use unmarked 'a' in all contexts, adding liaison /n/ before vowels quite >late (4 or 5, if memory serves away from my books). In some "subdialects" >(I don't like the word, but OK for now) the lack of liaison may persist >throughout adulthood, esp. in informal contexts (my Baltimorean ex-husband, >a comp. lit scholar, was a good example of this). Witness 'a apple', 'a >egg', 'a angel', etc. I have a Peanuts cartoon in which Charlie Brown >tries to instruct Sally in its use, after which she writes in a letter to >someone or other, "Dear Sir, You are an ucklehead." And of course, there's >'a napron' --> 'an apron' and Shakespeare's 'nuncle' (a reverse >reanalysis), both of which suggest a psycholinguistic awareness of the "a >to an before vowels" rule dating at least to Early Modern English. Ditto >for 'my to mine', 'thy to thine', etc.--even my American grad students are >amazed when they realize that this is what causes the pronoun variation in >the Lord's Prayer, not to mention Shakespeare. > >Beverly Flanigan I'm not sure what the metanalyses show about directionality, given that as you mention there are a number of examples in each direction: an + V > a + nV a newt (cf. _eft_) a nuncle (didn't take) a n a (whole) nother thing a nonce (word) vs. a + nV > an + V an apron an orange an adder (the snake) an umpire This shows speakers are aware that the "@nV-" sequence for indef. art. + CN can reflect either phonological structure, but not that there's an insertion rule vs. a deletion rule for the article. (In fact, there's a similar allomorphic alternation for the Greek privative prefix: anechoic, anhydrous, anaerobic, anesthetic vs. amoral, aphasic, asymptomatic.) The best evidence for deletion rather than insertion is that it's easier to predict what isn't there before consonants than what pops up before vowels, especially given the similarity between the article case and the prefix case, although the latter is frozen (whence the fixed nature of "anhydrous" vs. the online alternation between "a/an historical accident" depending on whether the /h/ is pronounced). The best evidence for insertion is the dialectal and developmental evidence noted by Wilson and Beverly--the frequently attested occurrence of "a apple" and the like vs. the non-occurrence of "an pear". (Well, yes, there is the very small group of speakers I mentioned earlier--including one of my undergraduates--who do have "an" before consonants, but since this involves a specific semantic value and prosody ("I'm (just) *an* person", meaning 'only one') rather than a variant of the indefinite article as such, I think we can discount it heavily.) larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 24 16:49:27 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:49:27 -0800 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: > "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute ass. > She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, > affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. > > -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1969 one annoying characteristic of malapropisms is that they tend to block the reader's (or hearer's) attempts at retrieving the right word in the context -- the word the writer (or speaker) *should have used*. "abundant"? by the way, was there really a comma between "firm" and "muscles"? arnold, marveling at the conflict in tone between "hirsute" and "ass" From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 24 17:04:16 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:04:16 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute 2 In-Reply-To: <200501241649.j0OGnYIS016486@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 24/1/05 4:49 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: > >> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute ass. >> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >> >> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1969 > > one annoying characteristic of malapropisms is that they tend to block > the reader's (or hearer's) attempts at retrieving the right word in the > context -- the word the writer (or speaker) *should have used*. > > "abundant"? > > by the way, was there really a comma between "firm" and "muscles"? 'Fraid so - but then the text has presumably been OCRd, which may account for the unlikely comma (? dirt on the page). The story was found at http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels I believe affluent can also mean flowing, but perhaps not in the sense of these locks. > > arnold, marveling at the conflict in tone between "hirsute" and "ass" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 24 17:26:48 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:26:48 -0800 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on Jan 24, 2005, at 8:49 AM, i wrote: > On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: > >> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute >> ass. >> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >> >> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, >> 1969? > > ... arnold, marveling at the conflict in tone between "hirsute" and > "ass" probably the result of cycling through (near-)synonyms, a common practice of inexperienced writers, of those who have been taught not to repeat words (but haven't been taught to maintain a consistent tone), and of writers in certain genres (for instance, porn/erotica). in two sentences we have "ass" and "rear". "bottom":, "posterior", "buttocks", "butt", etc. might well be lurking in the neighborhood. "hirsute", meanwhile, looks like an elegant substitute for "hairy", which in this context would a bit too vividly physical; "hairy ass" would be right out, though "hirsute posterior" might have worked. (eventually i'll report on some discussion from soc.motss a while back on "cock" vs. "dick"; a number of americans reported that "cock" seemed more sexual to them than "dick".) arnold, noting the nice displacement in having the man's *hair* stiffen under the woman's smooth palms From panis at PACBELL.NET Mon Jan 24 17:29:36 2005 From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:29:36 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: Apparently a Britishism, but found in a USian newspaper. Rotten Kids, British Style, Collide With American Back to Nature By VIRGINIA HEFFERNAN Published: January 24, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/24/arts/television/24heff.html From a review of "Brat Camp", an "enlightening, four-part teen-reform reality series, which has its penultimate episode on ABC Family tonight. On this show six sulky, brawling British adolescents are forced to grow up under the pressure of frontier-style American discipline." The article concludes with: But Tom, who initially feigns madness, Hamlet-style, has at least one moment of lucidity. Explaining himself to Fran, he gives a rap sheet with details that suggest a quintessentially British burnout. "I'm a screwed-up little druggie," he says. "He's been disrespectful to his mum. He broke his mum's ribs by pushing her onto a washing machine. What else have I done? Oh, yeah, I glass-bottled someone." Impressive. At least the tuneless singers on "American Idol" don't glass bottle people, whatever that is. (end quote) Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search field did turn up this article, though: Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm Pubs and clubs should sell bottled beer and alcopops in plastic bottles in order to cut street violence, a conference has heard. (end quote) The verb doesn't appear here, though. On the other hand, another (British-only?) term I'd not seen before does, apparently unusual enough to warrant quotes: Delegates from the drinks industry, the police, public health, the drug and alcohol advisory sector and local authorities heard how happy hours, alcopops, growing affluence and the British obsession with "necking it" as the night goes on all play a part. (end quotes) Another British article defines it by context: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2004/02/14/paul14.xml&sSheet=/education/2004/02/14/ixteright.html Sipping it, not necking it (Filed: 14/02/2004) Students are as keen as ever on drinking - but more want quality, not quantity, says Simon Brooke. (end quote) John -- *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A. *** From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 17:50:00 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:50:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Literary" In-Reply-To: <200501240819.j0O8JM33015550@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: literary (OED 1646 in the sense "pertaining to the letters of the alphabet," 1749 in the sense "of, or pertaining to, or of the nature of, literature") 1605 Francis Bacon _The tvvoo bookes of Francis Bacon. Of the proficience and aduancement of learning, diuine and humane. To the King._ 7 (Early English Books Online) HISTORY is NATURAL, CIVIL, ECCLESIASTICALL & LITERARY, whereof the three first I allow as extant, the fourth I note as deficient. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 17:57:13 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:57:13 EST Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0600, "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" writes: > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah song > contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see partial > phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" was grafted onto > "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with the loss of the -"tory" (" > satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. Yes, your memory is correct. If my memory is correct, the song is sung by Uncle Remus inthe Walt Disney movie "Song of the South", which is based (more or less) on the Uncle Remus stories by Joel Chandler Harris. "Satisfactual" is poetic licence, nothing more. It was invented to have a rhyme with "actual" which ended the previous line of the song. My guess is that the writer of the song realized he had to do something to make Uncle Remus sound like a black slave, or more exactly to sound like Harris's rendition of supposed ante-bellum AAVE. The rest of the song having no features not in educated white English, the writer apparently stuck in "satisfactual" to keep Uncle Remus from sounding like his white owner. Now to go way off topic: I saw "Song of the South" only once, and I was in elementary school at the time and don't recall much of the movie. In these Politically Correct days, how is "Song of the South" considered? PC? Politically Incorrect? or what? Also, I am curious as to today's PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo". - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jan 24 17:59:56 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:59:56 EST Subject: Raining cats and dogs Message-ID: I heard the following story about the phrase "raining cats and dogs" and would like to know if it is true, etymythology, or undecided: "The phrase comes from the days when most roofs were thatch. Now thatch contains seeds, which means it attracts mice and rats who eat the seeds. To get the rhodents out of their rooves, people would turn their cats and dogs loose on the roof. When it rained, the felines and canines were washed off the roof, hence the expression." - James A. Landau From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Mon Jan 24 18:00:39 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:00:39 -0500 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: <20050124173122.13D597AEE9@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: > Found this cite of "glass bottle" on Google. I wrote the writer for clarification of the term. Whatever it is, it is unpleasant: [Quote] That is sad. My mate Sean also gets hit by his dad. He lives over here Birmingham with his uncle now, but when he lived down in London, his dad was giving him boiling showers, freezing showers, blackeyes, he was getting hit, punched, kicked, and once his dad glass bottled him. [End Quote] Cite: http://newsbyteens.com/articles/view.asp?articleid=719 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 18:11:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:11:05 -0800 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: I thought "Song of the South" was great as a kid and that Uncle Remus was a great guy. Disney has not yet released it to video or DVD. A friend who is knowledgeable in such things assures me they never will, but here's a different opinion: http://dvd.ign.com/articles/576/576790p1.html JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0600, "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" writes: > In a similar vein (if I remember right), The Zippidy doo-dah song > contains the line "Everything is satisfactual." Here too we see partial > phonetic overlap ("ac" in "fac(t)" and "actual." So "actual" was grafted onto > "satisfac-", perhaps merely as poetic licence, with the loss of the -"tory" (" > satisfactory"). > Again, this is valid only if my memory is correct. Yes, your memory is correct. If my memory is correct, the song is sung by Uncle Remus inthe Walt Disney movie "Song of the South", which is based (more or less) on the Uncle Remus stories by Joel Chandler Harris. "Satisfactual" is poetic licence, nothing more. It was invented to have a rhyme with "actual" which ended the previous line of the song. My guess is that the writer of the song realized he had to do something to make Uncle Remus sound like a black slave, or more exactly to sound like Harris's rendition of supposed ante-bellum AAVE. The rest of the song having no features not in educated white English, the writer apparently stuck in "satisfactual" to keep Uncle Remus from sounding like his white owner. Now to go way off topic: I saw "Song of the South" only once, and I was in elementary school at the time and don't recall much of the movie. In these Politically Correct days, how is "Song of the South" considered? PC? Politically Incorrect? or what? Also, I am curious as to today's PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo". - James A. Landau __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Jan 24 18:24:26 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:24:26 -0800 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: Song of the South is WAY PI. Disney has locked it in the vaults indefinitely and it cannot be purchased in the US except on places such as EBAy. The video copies usually come from Great Britain in PAL format or from American individuals who have converted (pirated) it into NTSC. Be prapared to pay a lot. Fritz Now to go way off topic: I saw "Song of the South" only once, and I was in elementary school at the time and don't recall much of the movie. In these Politically Correct days, how is "Song of the South" considered? PC? Politically Incorrect? or what? Also, I am curious as to today's PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo". - James A. Landau From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Jan 24 18:24:05 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:24:05 -0600 Subject: Raining cats and dogs In-Reply-To: <200501241314.3a41f53b0a12a@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Snopes has this to say: I'll describe their houses a little. You've heard of thatch roofs, well that's all they were. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. They were the only place for the little animals to get warm. So all the pets; dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs, all lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery so sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Thus the saying, "it's raining cats and dogs," Mice, rats, and bugs definitely take up residence in thatch roofs -- to them it's a highrise hay mow. Cats and dogs, however, don't go up there. The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th century, not the 16th. A number of theories as to its origin exist: * By evoking the image of cats and dogs fighting in a riotous, all-out manner, it expresses the fury of a sudden downpour. * Primitive drainage systems in use in the 17th century could be overwhelmed by heavy rainstorms, leading to gutters overflowing with debris that included dead animals. * In Northen European mythology, it is believed cats influence the weather and dogs represent wind. * The saying might have derived from the obsolete French word catadoupe, meaning waterfall or cataract. * It might have come from a similar-sounding Greek phrase meaning "an unlikely occurrence." Patti Kurtz Minot State University laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: Raining cats and dogs >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 12:59 PM -0500 1/24/05, James A. Landau wrote: > > >>I heard the following story about the phrase "raining cats and dogs" and >>would like to know if it is true, etymythology, or undecided: >> >>"The phrase comes from the days when most roofs were thatch. Now thatch >>contains seeds, which means it attracts mice and rats who eat the >>seeds. To get >>the rhodents out of their rooves, people would turn their cats and dogs loose >>on the roof. When it rained, the felines and canines were washed >>off the roof, >>hence the expression." >> >> >> >This is an entry in the immortal "Life in the 15th century" >collection, a web-circulated panoply of etymythology if there ever >was one. Without checking the snopes folks, I would expect it's >exactly as accurate as the Hellenized reconstruction of "rhodent" >above--stemming no doubt from the days of yore in which rats' teeth >were shaped like the 17th letter of the Greek alphabet. > >larry > > -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 18:14:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:14:37 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs In-Reply-To: <146.3d1a4d71.2f26919c@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:59 PM -0500 1/24/05, James A. Landau wrote: >I heard the following story about the phrase "raining cats and dogs" and >would like to know if it is true, etymythology, or undecided: > >"The phrase comes from the days when most roofs were thatch. Now thatch >contains seeds, which means it attracts mice and rats who eat the >seeds. To get >the rhodents out of their rooves, people would turn their cats and dogs loose >on the roof. When it rained, the felines and canines were washed >off the roof, >hence the expression." > This is an entry in the immortal "Life in the 15th century" collection, a web-circulated panoply of etymythology if there ever was one. Without checking the snopes folks, I would expect it's exactly as accurate as the Hellenized reconstruction of "rhodent" above--stemming no doubt from the days of yore in which rats' teeth were shaped like the 17th letter of the Greek alphabet. larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jan 24 18:38:59 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:38:59 -0500 Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: FYI Song of the South Lyrics: Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah As a song writer-- I actually write more music than I do lyrics -- all I have to say is that you takes your rhymes wherever you can get them and if you are lucky the music will overcome the fact that some of your words do not actually rhyme. The old gag is June, moon, spoon, etc. but there is a reason for it. The music demands that the lyrics end up in the right place and not all of us are geniuses like Gilbert and Sullivan who were able to combine their talents in order to make their songs work perfectly. Dialect songs are even worse because very few lyric writers have any idea of what the dialects they are attempting to imitate sound like. If you want to learn more about this process I would suggest that you look up Lieber and Stoller who wrote some of the most fascinating songs of the past 50 or so years, everything from, "You Ain't Nothing But a Hound Dog" on up for Black performers. I have no idea where the word "satisfactual" in this song came from but it is my guess that Ray Gilbert thought that it sounded kinda Black in terms of the audience for the picture whose audience would have been for the most part White and thus used it. Anyone out there have any better ideas. Page Stephens Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah Music by Allie Wrubel Lyrics by Ray Gilbert Performed by James Baskett ? 1945 Walt Disney Music Company Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay My, oh my, what a wonderful day Plenty of sunshine headin' my way Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder It's the truth, it's actual Ev'rything is satisfactual Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Wonderful feeling, wonderful day, yes sir! Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay My, oh my, what a wonderful day Plenty of sunshine headin' my way Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder It's the truth, it's actual Ev'rything is satisfactual Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Wonderful feeling, feeling this way Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder It is the truth, it's actual... huh? Where is that bluebird? Mm-hm! Ev'rything is satisfactual Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay Wonderful feeling, wonderful day! 1946 song teaser ad [Mat 212]. This is without a doubt the most well-known song of the movie and, appropriately enough, won an Academy Award for best motion picture song in 1948. Sung by James Baskett (Uncle Remus), this song is still very popular and well-known today. View Original Sheet Music Listen to Sound Clip This song is available on CD: Classic Disney, Vol. 1. This song is available on VHS: Disney Sing-Along Songs, Vol. 2. Other Song Lyrics: Song of the South How Do You Do? Everybody Has A Laughing Place Uncle Remus Said Sooner Or Later Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah Let The Rain Pour Down All I Want Who Wants To Live Like That? Demonstration Songs Return to Lyrics ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:15 AM Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "exact(ual)ly" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, >>since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be >>released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. > > But the song is found in at least one of the videotape music collections > by > Disney. It does say "satisfactual", pronounced about as Gerald Cohen did > IMHO. > > -- Doug Wilson From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 24 18:51:48 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:51:48 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs Message-ID: American Dialect Society on Monday, January 24, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote: > >The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th >century, not the 16th. 1738 Swift _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation_ ..... But, compare: [a1652 tr. J.F. Gmelin's Linnaeus' Syst. Nat. ... It shall raine .. Dogs and Polecats.] For what it's worth. David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 18:56:43 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:56:43 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have previously antedated "computer" in its modern (machine) sense. Here is an antedating of the original sense (person who computes). computer (OED 1646) 1614 R. B. _The yong mans gleanings_ 1 (Early English Books Online) I haue read the truest computer of Times, and the best Arithmetician that euer breathed. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jan 24 19:21:51 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:21:51 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs Message-ID: Question: What's worse than raining cats and dogs? Answer: Hailing taxi cabs. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Raining cats and dogs > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barnhart > Subject: Re: Raining cats and dogs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > American Dialect Society on Monday, January 24, > 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote: >> >>The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th >>century, not the 16th. > > 1738 Swift _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation_ > ..... > > But, compare: > > [a1652 tr. J.F. Gmelin's Linnaeus' Syst. Nat. ... It shall raine .. Dogs > and Polecats.] > > For what it's worth. > > David K. Barnhart > > barnhart at highlands.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 19:36:49 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:36:49 -0500 Subject: Raining cats and dogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:51 PM -0500 1/24/05, Barnhart wrote: >American Dialect Society on Monday, January 24, >2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote: >> >>The saying it's raining cats and dogs was first noted in the 17th >>century, not the 16th. > >1738 Swift _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation_ >..... Swift's _Polite Conversation_, as it's usually called, was evidently begun about 1704 or so, but first published in 1738 (official catchy title: _A Complete Collection of Genteel and Ingenious Conversation, According to the Most Polite Mode and Method Now used at Court, and in the Best Companies of England_, published under the byline of Simon Wagstaff, Esq.) FWIW, in my edition, OUP 1963, commentator Eric Partridge notes under the relevant line-- LORD SPARKISH. Nay, I know Sir John will go, though he was sure it would rain Cats and Dogs. --that "rain Cats and Dogs" for 'rain violently' is attested "probably since c. 1600" (p. 155), although he doesn't give any further cites. A bit earlier in the same Dialogue II in _Polite conversation_, Swift offers his own retelling of the much-purveyed etymythology for "sirloin" (actually < Fr. sur 'over' + loin): MISS NOTABLE. But pray, why is it called a Sirloyn? LORD SPARKISH. Why, you must know that our King James I. who loved good Eating, being invited to Dinner by one of his Nobles, and seeing a large Loyn of Beef at his Table; he drew out his Sword, and in a Frolick Knighted it. Few People know the Secret of this. (p. 124) Larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 19:48:33 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: political economy (OED 1767) 1732 John Pullen _ Memoirs of the maritime affairs of Great Britain, especially in relation to our concerns in the West-Indies_ 57 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The only essential Maxim which runs through the whole Political OEconomy of the _Spaniards_, in respect of their Territories here, is the keeping them in an absolute Dependance upon _Spain_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 19:51:18 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:51:18 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: political economy (OED 1767) 1704 James Whiston _England's State-distempers_ 3 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Not one Revolution that happened in the Jewish Political Oeconomy but what was for the Punishment of their Crimes. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jan 24 19:52:23 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:52:23 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 02:51:18PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > political economy (OED 1767) > > 1704 James Whiston _England's State-distempers_ 3 (Eighteenth Century > Collections Online) Not one Revolution that happened in the Jewish > Political Oeconomy but what was for the Punishment of their Crimes. Keep going, Fred, eventually you'll find the a1687 example in EEBO.... JTS From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 20:02:52 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:02:52 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: <20050124195223.GA11529@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > Keep going, Fred, eventually you'll find the a1687 example in EEBO.... Actually I searched EEBO and got no hits. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jan 24 20:06:03 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:06:03 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Political Economy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 03:02:52PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > Keep going, Fred, eventually you'll find the a1687 example in EEBO.... > > Actually I searched EEBO and got no hits. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. a1687 W. Petty _Polit. Anat. Ireland_ (1691) 63 This brings me to the most important Consideration in Political Oeconomies, _viz._ how to make a _Par_ and _Equation_ between Lands and Labour, so as to express the Value of any thing by either alone. Jesse Sheidlower OED From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 20:49:21 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:49:21 -0500 Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") Message-ID: Under "fly", adjective, HDAS discerns two related senses: sense 1a (= wide awake) *1724, *1821, *1850, &c. (all English); 1872 (US); sense 1b (= aware) *1811, *1812 (both English); 1839 (US) (I abbreviate the definitions and leave out the supporting quotations, but we all sleep with HDAS on the nightstand, don't we?) Whichever sense the first of these two below goes under, it is a pretty neat antedating in the U. S. The fact that it comes 50+ years before the 2nd earliest English citation is all right, too. 1749: That the fly Ones should not suspect you for a Courtier, you have been likewise very arch in giving us to understand, that you had been heretofore pleased to encourage and support the Party. N-Y Gazette Revived, January 16, 1748-9, p. 1, col. 1 [from a political diatribe, responding to last week's political diatribe] 1824: The carriages, wagons, horsemen, and pedestrians, who seemed to make Coney Island their place of destination, amounted to a considerable number; the roads were lined and adorned with them in every direction; the regulars were numerous -- the knowing ones were up, and the downy ones were all fly. The Emerald, October 16, 1824, p. 109, cols. 1-2. [a report on a prizefight] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 21:02:10 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: a desperado's brag Message-ID: I began my career as a gatherer of curious words and expressions with the expression "I can do it standing on my head" -- by which villains express thier disdain for a prison sentence. I found it interesting that this expression was a fixed set-phrase yet also variable. Sometimes the villain will stand on his head, other times on his hands. Here is another fixed expression that is even more highly variable: 1851: Joseph Clark when asked why the sentence of the law should not be pronounced against him said that he had no intention of taking the life of Gillespie, but that he cared as little about being hung as the judge did about taking a bad breakfast. Brooklyn Daily Eagle, September 29, 1851, p. 2, col. ? [Brooklyn Eagle on Line] 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more of the hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. Thos. J. Dimsdale, The Vigilantes of Montana. . . . Virginia City, M. T.: Montana Post Pr., 1866, p. 138 ("Classics of the Old West" reprint, Time-Life Books, n. d.) 1866: He [Bill Bunton] was very particular about the exact situation of the knot, and asked if he could not jump off himself. Being told that he could, he said that he didn't care for hanging, any more than he did for taking a drink of water; but he should like to have his neck broken. Thos. J. Dimsdale, The Vigilantes of Montana. . . . Virginia City, M. T.: Montana Post Pr., 1866 ("Classics of the Old West" reprint, Time-Life Books, n. d.) GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 24 21:03:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:03:13 -0500 Subject: "I'm (just) 'an' person" Message-ID: That's really interesting, Larry. Back in the day. didn't folk used to say, "I'm (just) _[ei]_ person," changing the pronunciation of "a" [@] to [ei] and placing the main stress thereupon? I've even heard folk say, "I'm (just) _[^]_ person. But, "I'm (just) *an* person"?. Whoa! Who'd a thunk it? -Wilson From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jan 24 21:22:41 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:22:41 -0500 Subject: a desperado's brag In-Reply-To: <1154454115783b.115783b1154454@nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2005, at 16:02, George Thompson wrote: > 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more of the > hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. That reminds me of another expression, supposedly said by men about to be hung. A year ago I found an item in a newspaper article posted to a genealogy email list for Wayne Co., Missouri, where my father's family is from. The article concerns two fellows are accused of murdering a man for $700. (I'm not related to any of them). The article (15 May 1902) ends thusly: > This is the blackest crime and darkest spot in the history of Wayne > County. Brown has as yet made no confession but is reported to have > said that if he is executed, he desires to be hanged 15 minutes before > 12 o?clock so as to get to hell in time for dinner. I liked the last remark, so I hit Google and found that Ruloff's Restaurant in Ithaca claims Edward Rulof said much the same thing. Dick Bailey (who published "Rogue Scholar," a book about the criminal and philologist Edward Ruloff, last year), says there's no record of Ruloff having said it. Then I found another link for a fellow in Wyoming who supposedly said it, too, 5 March 1886. So it's one of those fanciful pass-alongs, I guess. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 21:38:39 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:38:39 -0500 Subject: Callithumpians Message-ID: The OED has "callithumpian A. adj. Designating, pertaining to, or resembling, a band of discordant instruments. B. n. A member of a callithumpian band." Its earliest citation is 1836. It is not in HDAS 1810: The Serenade. We were promised, in a pompous manner, a grand serenade last evening by the Calathumpian Glee Society, from off the battery; and the weather being extremely fine, the citizens assembled in great numbers and paraded to and fro for a long time in anxious expectation of the promised treat. Columbian, August 15, 1810, p. 3, col. 1 1828: Callithumpian Band. [headline] ["boys furnished with conches, tin-horns, tongs, kettles, warming pans and shovels Commercial Advertiser, December 23, 1828, p. 2, col. 2. 1843: About 12 o'clock, however, a band of "Callithumpians," with tin pans for bass drums, and tin horns for trumpets, marched into the Tombs, and notwithstanding two of the Justices were within calling distance, took possession of the officer's large room, and began to discourse such music as was rarely heard by ears of mortals. NY Herald, January 2, 1843, p. 2, col. 4. 1853: A band of Callithumpian rowdies made last night hideous in the neighborhood of Eighth street and Fourth Avenue, by beating tin pans, blowing fish horns and howling and hooting like savages. Evening Mirror, January 4, 1853, p. 2, col. 1 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 24 21:51:38 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:51:38 -0500 Subject: cut = drunk Message-ID: I perhaps ought not to flaunt this one before the membership, since it isn't close to being an antedating, but in a way it is, since HDAS's citations were not caught in the wild. HDAS has cut = drunk from dictionaries: 1650 from Partridge's DSUE; 1698-9 from (I must admit) a genuine 17th C. dictionary, B. E.'s Dict of the Canting Crew; 1722, from Ben Franklin, but as quoted in Amer Speech; and 1748, from Farmer & Henley); then 1813-18 & 1821, from U. S. sources. *** On enquiry, I found these amateurs were assembled to see a Boxing- Match, between a Mr. Crosby and a Scotch baker. *** After waiting a considerable time to see the anticipated spectacle, the Scotch baker disappointed us. Crosby went away in triumph, half cut. *** Daily Advertiser, October 5, 1802, p. 3, col. 2 Go ahead and delete it, if you find it unworthy. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 21:52:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:52:08 -0800 Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") Message-ID: Thanks, George. 1824 is unambiguous, but could 1749 be "sly"? I've been fooled a few times by the long "s" myself. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Under "fly", adjective, HDAS discerns two related senses: sense 1a (= wide awake) *1724, *1821, *1850, &c. (all English); 1872 (US); sense 1b (= aware) *1811, *1812 (both English); 1839 (US) (I abbreviate the definitions and leave out the supporting quotations, but we all sleep with HDAS on the nightstand, don't we?) Whichever sense the first of these two below goes under, it is a pretty neat antedating in the U. S. The fact that it comes 50+ years before the 2nd earliest English citation is all right, too. 1749: That the fly Ones should not suspect you for a Courtier, you have been likewise very arch in giving us to understand, that you had been heretofore pleased to encourage and support the Party. N-Y Gazette Revived, January 16, 1748-9, p. 1, col. 1 [from a political diatribe, responding to last week's political diatribe] 1824: The carriages, wagons, horsemen, and pedestrians, who seemed to make Coney Island their place of destination, amounted to a considerable number; the roads were lined and adorned with them in every direction; the regulars were numerous -- the knowing ones were up, and the downy ones were all fly. The Emerald, October 16, 1824, p. 109, cols. 1-2. [a report on a prizefight] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 24 21:57:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:57:13 -0800 Subject: cut = drunk Message-ID: Given their scarcity in print, no 18th or 19th C. slang ex. is unworthy. Am familiar with "callithumpian," but OED dissuaded me from listing it as slang. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: cut = drunk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I perhaps ought not to flaunt this one before the membership, since it isn't close to being an antedating, but in a way it is, since HDAS's citations were not caught in the wild. HDAS has cut = drunk from dictionaries: 1650 from Partridge's DSUE; 1698-9 from (I must admit) a genuine 17th C. dictionary, B. E.'s Dict of the Canting Crew; 1722, from Ben Franklin, but as quoted in Amer Speech; and 1748, from Farmer & Henley); then 1813-18 & 1821, from U. S. sources. *** On enquiry, I found these amateurs were assembled to see a Boxing- Match, between a Mr. Crosby and a Scotch baker. *** After waiting a considerable time to see the anticipated spectacle, the Scotch baker disappointed us. Crosby went away in triumph, half cut. *** Daily Advertiser, October 5, 1802, p. 3, col. 2 Go ahead and delete it, if you find it unworthy. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 24 22:47:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:47:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Political Science" In-Reply-To: <20050124200603.GA23270@panix.com> Message-ID: political science (OED 1779) 1606 Edward Forset _A comparatiue discourse of the bodies natural and politique_ 85 (Early English Books Online) There bee sometimes such nimble headed Pragmatickes, that taking vpon them to be great entermedlers in state affaires, do for want of grounded knowledge in the politicall science, make many foule escapes. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 25 02:46:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:46:56 -0800 Subject: a desperado's brag Message-ID: Grant, Vaguely comparable, from http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.irish/browse_frm/thread/b18b31a07243cf8/6bf9567c8b057b0a?q=%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-11,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#6bf9567c8b057b0a "BTW, is it true that every Irish blessing has a corresponding curse? i.e. May you be a half hour in hell before God knows you're dead." Though I couldn't find it on the Net, I did once read or hear "in hell before God gets the news." JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: a desperado's brag ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 24, 2005, at 16:02, George Thompson wrote: > 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more of the > hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. That reminds me of another expression, supposedly said by men about to be hung. A year ago I found an item in a newspaper article posted to a genealogy email list for Wayne Co., Missouri, where my father's family is from. The article concerns two fellows are accused of murdering a man for $700. (I'm not related to any of them). The article (15 May 1902) ends thusly: > This is the blackest crime and darkest spot in the history of Wayne > County. Brown has as yet made no confession but is reported to have > said that if he is executed, he desires to be hanged 15 minutes before > 12 o?clock so as to get to hell in time for dinner. I liked the last remark, so I hit Google and found that Ruloff's Restaurant in Ithaca claims Edward Rulof said much the same thing. Dick Bailey (who published "Rogue Scholar," a book about the criminal and philologist Edward Ruloff, last year), says there's no record of Ruloff having said it. Then I found another link for a fellow in Wyoming who supposedly said it, too, 5 March 1886. So it's one of those fanciful pass-alongs, I guess. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 25 03:59:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:59:45 EST Subject: "Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" (Tom Lehrer?) Message-ID: You think life can't get worse, and then it always does. No heat at work. But it's the city, so they open up the place anyway. And I'm doing parking tickets for ten hours with a coat and a scarf on. And then I think, OK, at least I'll have tomorrow off to go to the Lincoln Center library for "Birth of a Nation" and "movie," and then the manager comes in and says they need me tomorrow, and they might have heat... ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- "IF HE TOLD YOU TO GO JUMP IN A LAKE, YOU'D DO THAT, TOO?" ... The river and lake versions are earlier than the Empire State Building and George Washington Bridge versions. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Grand Rapids Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2tOnVnenEfHSCj3mbiwjUonLnesTayQdBg==) Thursday, October 14, 1915 _Grand Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:grand_rapids+told+you+to+jump+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+told+you+to+jump+ AND) ...She TOLD me interposed Heap. "If she TOLD YOU TO JUMP in the lake would YOU.....who is only sixteen years old, TOLD at her home of how HEMP PROVES ITS.. ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _HILGERT'S MAGIC CURE.; Left Boy Helpless, Mother Testifies -- Boots Held Cheap Now. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=101832849&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106623241&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1906. p. 2 (1 page) ... "If I told you to jump into the river, would you do it?" ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "BESIDES THAT, MRS. LINCOLN, HOW DID YOU LIKE THE PLAY?" ... MRS. LINCOLN + LIKE THE PLAY--1,430 Google hits, 801 Google Groups hits MRS. LINCOLN + ENJOY THE PLAY--5,420 Google hits, 1,050 Google Groups hits ... This line was probably coined by Tom Lehrer. The American Heritage Dictionary of American Quotations contains not a single Tom Lehrer line. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has four Tom Lehrer lines, but "Mrs. Lincoln" isn't one of them. It's a bit off topic, but that fateful night went something like this. Mary Todd Lincoln was sitting around the house, playing with Lincoln logs. And Lincoln, good Republican family man that he was, was sitting with her, watching Spongebob Squarepants. So then Lincoln said, aw Mare!, let's go out to the Kennedy Center for LA CAGE. Some of my friends are in that... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Tasteful Good Looks in Scarsdale_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=283630092&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS= 1106621509&clientId=65882) By M.H. REED. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 29, 1983. p. WC25 (1 page) ... But, as the old line goes, "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" ... _The Serious, Mind-Bending Work of Laughing at Washington; THE OUTLOOK INTERVIEW; MARK RUSSELL, COMEDIAN, TALKS TO LEE MCHAEL KATZ _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=126055712&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD& RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106621051&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1983. p. C3 (1 page) ... Q: Are there emergencies or political actions that don't lend themselves to humor? A: Yes. I may feel like commenting about them when they've resolved themselves. That might be in a few days, it might be in a few months. Lincoln's assassination, that took what, 100 years. Then finally they said, "Well, outside of what happened, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" ... _Running First Women's Bank Is Now a Man's Job_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=120610910&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& VName=HNP&TS=1106620673&clientId=65882) By N.R. KLEINFIELD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 8, 1987. p. F6 (1 page) ... "Asking how the bank was doing aside from a lack of capital," Mr. Simon said, "is like saying, aside from the assassination, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2m5Fx6ttXJZLWKHt5aW2Y6knyVnYmGViGw==) Saturday, September 21, 1996 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+mrs.+Lincoln+and+like+the+play) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+mrs.+Lincoln+and+like+the+play) ...may ask. Right Except for that, MRS. LINCOLN, how did you LIKE THE PLAY? But.....pockets, he had built what seemed LIKE a viable political party. Now Perot.. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jan 25 07:59:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:59:11 EST Subject: Smythe's "Beat 'em in alley" (1972); Fluffragette, Graphic Novel; "Moan Tones" Message-ID: SMYTHE'S "IF YOU CAN'T BEAT "EM IN THE ALLEY, YOU CAN'T BEAT "EM ON THE ICE" ... What a world. There's no hockey season and absolutely no one misses it. Yet, baseball players are the kings of the universe. And I work for just about nothing and have to beg (unsuccessfully) for heat. ... This hockey quotation is quite famous and deserves to be in a book of quotations. I can probably pin it down to the exact day using the digitized Toronto Star's "Pages of the Past." Anyone want to pay the five dollars for one day to do that and post it here? ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _'95 Wings avenge early playoff ouster with tournament upset_ (http://nhl.com/fancentral/fungames/quest/round1_series7_112604.html) NHL.com - Dec ... Maple Leafs owner Conn Smythe coined the expression, "You can't beat them on the ice if you can't beat them in the alley," and he instructed GM Frank Selke ... ... ... 25 March 1972, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 8, col. 1: When Smythe was manager of the Tornto Maple Leafs (late '20s through early '50s), he set the theme of the tough hockey player. ... "If you can't beat 'em in the alley," Smythe would say, "you can't beat 'em on the ice." ... ... _Red Smith; Fun, Games and a Little Blood No Dumps in Piedras Negras The Hammer Is Nailed _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=102750332&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106638375&clientId= 65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1975. p. 58 (1 page) ... "If you can't beat them in the alley, you can't beat them on the ice."--Conn Smythe, a patron saint of ice hockey. ... ... _Conn Smythe, 85, Former Owner Of Maple Leafs Team in Hockey; 'Call Me Conn' _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=111310792&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106638630&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 19, 1980. p. A31 (1 page) ... Once, when he thought players were not aggressive enough, he told them, "If you can't beat them out in the alley, you can't beat them in here on the ice." ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- TEN FEET TALL AND BULLETPROOF ... TEN FEET TALL AND BULLETPROOF--4,420 Google hits, 287 Google Groups hits ... I guess Travis Tritt coined it with the 1994 song. I don't have FACTIVA handy. ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _TRAVIS TRITT LYRICS - Ten Feet Tall And Bulletproof_ (http://www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis/027.htm) ... Ten Feet Tall And Bulletproof (Travis Tritt) I'ma full grown man That's plain to see But nowhere near as full grown As I'd like to be But I'll find a bar And I ... www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis/027.htm - 21k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:8cwTpV4r87QJ:www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis/027.htm+"te n+feet+tall+and+bulletproof"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.lyricscafe.com/t/tritt_travis /027.htm) (NEWSPAPERAR ... _Mountain Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2ojYp1oVUXRSYmFvuBH3lwgYi59hdc/tUg==) Friday, October 20, 1995 _Placerville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:placerville+ten+feet+tall+and+bulletproof) _California_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+ten+feet+tall+and+bulletproof) ...TAHOE Travis Tritt brings his "TEN FEET TALL AND BULLETPROOF tour to.....m. today, Monday, Tuesday AND Thursday AND at noon on Saturday. Sunday AND.. ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- FLUFFRAGETTE,; GRAPHIC NOVEL; ... I checked "coined the" on Google News. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _Since you asked_ (http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2005/0120/local/stories/20local.htm) Mail Tribune, OR - Jan 20, ... Columnist Cherri Gilham has coined the term "fluffragette" for a woman who presents herself as hip and contemporary but who seeks to control men through such ... ... _Post-feminist author to speak_ (http://www.courier-journal.com/features/books/2005/01/16/speak.html) Louisville Courier-Journal, KY - Jan 16, Cris Mazza, who with co-editor Jeffrey DeShell coined the term "chick lit" in 1995, will read from her latest novel, "Homeland," at 7 pm Wednesday at ... ... _Serpas in the spotlight_ (http://www.tennessean.com/government/archives/05/01/63918063.shtml?Element_ID=63918063) The Tennessean, TN - Jan 10, ... He coined the phrase ''boo-boo lip'' ? as in, ''We aren't going to tell you what we can't do; you won't see any boo-boo lip from us.''. ... ... _Will Eisner, a Pioneer of Comic Books, Is Dead at 87_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/books/05eisner.html) New York Times - Ja ... NC Christopher Couch, one of the authors of "The Will Eisner Companion" (DC Comics, 2004), noted that "Eisner independently coined the term graphic novel in ... ... _Medicare Looms As Budget, Logistical Issue for States_ (http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/4-12-27MedicareStates.htm) SeniorJournal.com, TX - Dec 27, ... Instead, states will get hit with what?s been coined the ?clawback? provision, which will require states to finance a large share of the federal drug ... ... _Early Detection, Alerting Medical Authorities Can Combat Death Due ..._ (http://press.arrivenet.com/edu/article.php/546305.html) ArriveNet (press release), CO - Dec 2 ... "In 1999, a doctor wrote an editorial for a medical journal in which he coined the terms, "Merry Christmas coronary" and the "Happy New Year heart attack ... ... _'Rejuveniles' treasure childhood thrills_ (http://www.fox11az.com/news/other/stories/KMSB-20041222-dnbp-rejuvenile.35fffb08.html) KMSB, AZ - Dec 22, ... Los Angeles-based writer Christopher Noxon says he was researching a book on the subject when he coined the term "rejuveniles." Mr. Noxon, 36, met his wife ... ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- MOAN TONES ... In my job, you tell people to turn of all cell phones, and before you can finish that sentence, a cell phone goes off. A porn star cell phone moan tone. Just what the world needed. ... ... _http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000267028272/#comments_ (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000267028272/#comments) ... Everyone needs a moantone Posted Jan 20, 2005, 11:53 AM ET by Joshua Fruhlinger ... We didn?t say it. Jenna Jameson did. The sultry sex machine of the adult film biz is teaming up with Wicked Wireless to provide Latin American cell phone users with things like boobalicious wallpapers and ringtones that moan (? moantones,? as they call them). Why this hasn?t happened before and why it is happening in Latin America we?re not sure. In Jenna?s words, which are priceless, ?We?ll provide [moantones] in the universal language of sexy sighs recognized around the world but with our own personal touch. The technology is way beyond most of us, but the bottom line is that you?ll able to hear the other Jenna?s Web Girls moan and me when your phone starts to ring. We?ll also provide audio content in Spanish plus photos and text features ... ... Posted Jan 20, 2005, 4:15 PM ET by _Streeter D_ (http://www.moantones.com/) Moantones are not really new and neither is Jenna Jameson. If you would like some real news about "moantones" there is an article by the two Canadian lads who invented the term in 2002 and who started the website in 2003. The interview is at _http://www.totalmanipulation.com/moan_tones.html_ (http://www.totalmanipulation.com/moan_tones.html) I have moantones on my phone and only use them sometimes on the weekend as ringers. Otherwise I download truetones or something besides the bibbity bip on my V220. I have to agree with the first comment though...this is not really news as much as Wicked trying to promote themselves. Peace Out Streeter D From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 25 08:33:35 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:33:35 -0500 Subject: The Language of Baseball (1910) Message-ID: Found this on Newspaperarchive... it's extracted from "The Humming Bird" by Owen Johnson (1910), which I see is included in _Dead Balls and Double Curves: An Anthology of Early Baseball Fiction_ (SIU Press, 2004): http://www.siu.edu/~siupress/titles/s04_titles/strecker_dead.htm Notable not just for all the baroque baseballese, but also for the innovative affixation of "-wise" and "-sburg" to players' names ("De Soto-wise", "Waladersburg"). ----------- _Post Standard_ (Syracuse, NY), June 18, 1910, p. 4/4 The Language of Baseball In the little book, "The Humming Bird" (Baker & Taylor), a small American named Dennis de Brian de Boru Finnegan tells how the great American game is played and presents to his prep school paper an account of the match between Lawrenceville and Pennington. One of the faculty asks him to explain. He does so: "'Lawrenceville, 5; Pennington, 4,' said Finnegan. In the breakaway Tyrell, first to dust the rubber for the Chaperons." "Chaperons?" said Bingham, puzzled. "It's co-ed, you know, sir. 'Chaperons' gives rather a touch of humor, don't you think?" "'In the breakaway Tyrell, the first to dust the rubber for the Chaperons, selected a hole in the circumambient and poked a buzzer over short --'" "Go slow, Finnegan." "Yes, sir -- 'Minds soaked a clover kisser to the far station, which Walader kittened to and whipped to first --'" "I don't get that Finnegan." "What is it, sir?" "Well, the whole episode is a trifle hazy. What is a clover kisser?" "Why, a daisy scorcher, sir." "You mean a grounder?" "A certain kind of grounder, sir, very low -- one that doesn't rise from the grass. Quite different from a broncho-buster or a dew-drop, sir." "I'm afraid I have specialized too much in medieval English; what is this thing you call a broncho buster?" "A broncho-buster is a grounder, or rather a tobasco grounder, that bucks and kicks." "Very lucid, Finnegan, and a 'dew-drop'?" "Why, that's a weakling -- a toddler -- all luck, you know." "Ah, yes. Now let me think, Walader stopped the daisy scorcher --" "Clover-kisser, sir." "Exactly. So Walader stopped it and retired the man at first?" "Why, yes, sir." "Proceed, Finnegan, proceed." "Tyrell, who had purloined the second perch, started to ramble to Waladersburg when Jackson stung the planet De Soto-wise for a safety, but our iridescent little body snatcher lassoed it and slaughtered the rally with a staccato lunge to the midway that completed the double demise." "Ah, yes. that is simpler," said the Master, gravely. "Now for Lawrenceville." "De Soto streaked the empyrean blue with a white winger that was strangled in center." "A fly, Finnegan?" "Yes, sir." "Just an ordinary fly?" "Oh, no, sir, a rather high one." "Continue." "Hickey ticked off a slow freight to the pretzel counter and cannon to first just ahead of Tyrell's slap." "Let us go back." "Why, what's wrong, sir?" "Ticked off a slow freight?" "Bunted a slow one." "Naturally -- but pretzel counter?" "The curve box -- the pitcher." "Of course!" "Stevens frisked the lozenge once to the back woods and then unmuzzled a humming bird to the prairies which nested in Jackson's twigs --" "I don't like unmuzzled." "I could say uncorked, sir." "No, I don't fancy uncorked, either." "Unhitched, then." "Never unhitched. The fact is, the use of the words humming bird in this connection does not seem to me appropriate at all." Finnegan looked solemn and said with difficulty: "Please, sir, I would like to keep that expression, sir. I'm rather proud of that. A humming bird is a liner, you know, that hums, Please, sir, I hope you'll let me have that in." ----------- --Ben Zimmer From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Jan 25 09:36:05 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:36:05 +0000 Subject: Beverage architecture In-Reply-To: <200501200631.j0K6VH56015325@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the latter if I used more than one component). Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, but also repair/rebuild them! 'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' 'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' -Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 130 From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 25 10:05:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:05:52 -0500 Subject: pretzel curve (1886), pretzel battery (1887) Message-ID: * pretzel curve (originally referring to the curve ball of Charles "Pretzel" Getzein of the Detroit Wolverines in the 1880s; later applied to other, often German-American, pitchers) 1886 _Daily News_ (Frederick, Md.) 26 Jul. 4/5 The Chicago's describe the course of the ball from his [sc. Charles Getzein's] hand to their bats as a "pretzel curve." 1886 _Atlanta Constitution_ 27 Jul. 8/4 Wells's pretzel curves were too much for the Memphis yesterday, and they gave the champions another victory. 1886 _Atlanta Constitution_ 17 Aug. 8/4 (heading) Wells, the pretzel curver, retires the Charlestons. (ibid.) Kappel, Phillips and Brosnan, the heavy hitters of the team, went down before the midget's pretzel curves. 1890 _Chicago Tribune_ 1 Aug. 6/1 (heading) Stein's pretzel curves. (ibid.) Perhaps he copied his curves from the twists of a pretzel; at any rate he can make a ball take all the curves peculiar to that German article of diet. 1890 _Middletown Daily Press_ (N.Y.) 10 Sep. 1/6 Getzein's pretzel curves were not so effective. 1891 _Chicago Tribune_ 22 Aug. 7/1 Charley Getzein, he of the famous "pretzel" curves, was in the box for the visitors. Those who remembered the weird twists that Charley carried with him when he was twirling the old Detroits into the championship felt that it would at least take some time for the Colts to solve the intricacies of those "pretzel" curves. 1894 _Atlanta Constitution_ 14 May 5/4 But the Atlanta boys being from Cincinnati say they are onto "pretzel" curves and will teach Mr. Klopf a lesson he'll never forget. 1894 _New York Times_ 16 Aug. 8/5 Breitenstein, a youth with a strong left arm and pretzel curves, prevented the New Yorks from winning a game yesterday. 1897 _Times Democrat_ (Lima, Ohio) 14 Jun. 4/3 Charley Mooney and R.T. Wilmot dispensed their choicest assortment of pretzel curves. 1897 _Times Democrat_ (Lima, Ohio) 18 Aug. 5/2 Mr. Blackburn kept the batters dodging by the pretzel curves that he put on the sphere. 1899 _Trenton Evening Times_ (N.J.) 15 Apr. 6/2 George Reed, of the Rogers, has one of Griffith's pretzel curves this season, which he claims will fool some of the hitters. 1905 _New York Times_ 13 Oct. 6/1 (heading) Philadelphians unable to stand against his pretzel curves. (ibid.) That professor of occult speed and pretzel curve, Christie Mathewson. 1906 _Bucks County Gazette_ (Pa.) 31 Aug. 3/7 He had grape vine shoots, pretzel curves and fade-away drops. Cohan pitched so many fancy curves that his wrist got twisted and had to finish the game by tossing jew-drops. 1908 _Chicago Tribune_ 31 Aug. 6/1 No longer will Chicago's fans struggle with the pretzel curves of the great sou'paw's patronymic. 1914 _New York Times_ 5 Sep. 8/1 Ruelbach then went through all the motions of uncurling a pretzel curve with nothing in his hand but his fist. 1916 _Lancaster Daily Gazette_ (Ohio) 11 Aug. 2/3 Baus' pretzel curves could not puzzle the printers. 1934 _Washington Post_ 13 Aug. 11/5 The Earl started to pitch -- throwing those pretzel curves at Foxx. 1938 _Nebraska State Journal_ 8 Oct. (Sports) 1/6 Marcellus Monte Pearson, a burly right hander who can toss his pretzel curve thru the eye of a needle. 1942 _Los Angeles Times_ 6 May 20/7 Jimmy Wallace, a tiny, apple-cheeked boy with a winning smile and a pretzel curve. 1951 _Chicago Tribune_ 3 Apr. III-1/4 Marvin Rotblatt, the lefty with the pretzel curve. ------ * pretzel battery (Charles Geitzen and Charles Ganzel of the Detroit Wolverines, 1886-88, or various other German-American pitcher/catcher combinations) 1887 _Daily Northwestern_ (Oshkosh, Wisc.) 19 May 1/2 Krock and Gastfield, Oshkosh's "pretzel" battery, verify everything said in their favor. 1887 _Daily Northwestern_ (Oshkosh, Wisc.) 25 May 1/2 The Blues will present their pretzel battery -- Lang and Simpson. 1894 _Chicago Tribune_ 10 Nov. 6/1 Among the jurors is Charles Getzein, the professional baseball player, famous some years ago as the pitcher in the "pretzel" battery of Getzein and Ganzel. 1895 _Washington Post_ 23 Aug. 6/1 The original "pretzel battery" consisted of Pitcher Getzein and Catcher Gas[t]field, and not of Getzein and Ganzel, as many suppose. 1896 _Chicago Tribune_ 31 Aug. 8/2 Charley Getzien, the ex-league pitcher, and at one time a member of the famous Detroit "pretzel" bettery of Getzein and Ganzel. 1905 _Atlanta Constitution_ 27 Dec. 9/3 The dissolution of the pretzel battery came long ago. After Breitenstein left Heine Peitz remained the star of the catching class here. 1908 _New York Times_ 18 Apr. 7/1 The work of the pair [sc. Schlitzer and Schreckengost] yesterday indicated that there will be another pretzel battery to achieve success similar to that attained by Getzein and Ganzel years ago in St. Louis [sic]. 1909 _Mansfield News_ (Ohio) 3 Sep. 3/1 However, the soft pedal end of the pretzel battery, "Hezzy Schreck" Breymaier will also be in the game. 1909 _Washington Post_ 5 Sep. S2/5 A noted team of bygone days was composed of Getzein and Ganzel -- the pretzel battery they were called when they played for the Detroits in 1887. 1914 _Clearfield Progress_ (Pa.) 5 Aug. 3/2 Another pretzel battery. Der Herr Pitcher Schauffalaufe and der Herr Catcher Ehlminghle have signed with Manager Herzog of the Cincinnati Reds. 1925 _Chicago Tribune_ 20 Jul. 21/5 Getzien and Ganzel, playing for Detroit in the 80s, were known as the "pretzel battery." 1943 _Mansfield News Journal_ (Ohio) 18 Jun. 12/1 We called Osborne and Delahanty the Shamrock Battery, to distinguish them from the Pretzel Battery of Petie Sommers, pitcher, and Fritz Grumbling, catcher. 1944 _New York Times_ 24 Aug. 14/6 There were some great names on the St. Louis rosters in those early years -- Ted Breitenstein and Heinie Peitz (the Pretzel Battery). ------ --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Jan 25 10:16:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:16:57 -0500 Subject: pretzel curve (1886), pretzel battery (1887) Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:05:52 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >* pretzel curve (originally referring to the curve ball of Charles >"Pretzel" Getzein of the Detroit Wolverines in the 1880s; later applied to >other, often German-American, pitchers) > >1886 _Daily News_ (Frederick, Md.) 26 Jul. 4/5 The Chicago's describe the >course of the ball from his [sc. Charles Getzein's] hand to their bats as >a "pretzel curve." More on Getzein's curveball here: ----- http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_18/outXVIII05/outXVIII05n.pdf The Theory and Introduction of Curve Pitching. O.P. Caylor, Outing, August, 1891, No. 5, p. 404, col. 2 The early idea that it was possible to curve the ball either to the right or left by the use of the same hand was, of course, a physiological impossibility. ... But the belief in the double curve still exists among the more ignorant ball players. As an instance of it we have the nickname of "the Pretzel Pitcher," given to Getzein by players who imagine the ball from his hands comes at them with the curves of a pretzel. ----- --Ben Zimmer From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Jan 25 15:52:42 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:52:42 -0800 Subject: Beverage architecture Message-ID: Never heard that. Fritz J >>> neil at TYPOG.CO.UK 01/25/05 01:36AM >>> As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the latter if I used more than one component). Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, but also repair/rebuild them! 'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' 'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' -Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 130 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 25 16:03:26 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:03:26 -0500 Subject: Beverage architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:52 AM -0800 1/25/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >Never heard that. >Fritz J > >>>> neil at TYPOG.CO.UK 01/25/05 01:36AM >>> >As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the >latter if I used more than one component). > >Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, but also >repair/rebuild them! very odd. in the old days, refreshing them was enough. Well, this way it does sound as though we're burning more calories when we do it--"The snow was too deep to go out to exercise, but I worked out rebuilding my drinks." larry > >'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' > >'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' > >-Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 130 From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 25 16:13:27 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:13:27 -0500 Subject: "second-hand"--(possible blend) In-Reply-To: <20050123050055.D84B0B29B5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer posits: >>>>> Perhaps this usage of "second-hand" is better understood as a shortened form of "second-hand nature". Google throws up dozens of examples... <<<<< That just pushes the question back one stage further. "Second-hand nature" is one I have never heard before, and makes me ask whether *it* originated as a blend of "second-hand" and "second nature". And that still wouldn't mean that this meaning of "second-hand" hadn't had multiple origins. -- Mark [I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is perfect.] From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jan 25 17:07:21 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:07:21 -0500 Subject: a desperado's brag Message-ID: I've seen on t-shirts a supposed "Irish" blessing, to the effect that "may St. Peter welcome you into heaven a half hour before the devil knows you're dead". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:46 pm Subject: Re: a desperado's brag > Grant, > Vaguely comparable, from > http://groups- > beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.irish/browse_frm/thread/b18b31a07243cf 8/6bf9567c8b057b0a?q=%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22&_done=% 2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22before+God+knows+you%27re+dead%22%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D% 26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-11,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg% 26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#6bf9567c8b057b0a > "BTW, is it true that every Irish blessing has a corresponding curse? > > i.e. May you be a half hour in hell before God knows you're dead." > > Though I couldn't find it on the Net, I did once read or hear "in > hell before God gets the news." > > JL > > > Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------- > ------------ > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: a desperado's brag > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > On Jan 24, 2005, at 16:02, George Thompson wrote: > > 1866: Lane was a man of iron nerve; he seemed to think no more > of the > > hanging than a man would of eating his breakfast. > > That reminds me of another expression, supposedly said by men > about to > be hung. A year ago I found an item in a newspaper article posted > to a > genealogy email list for Wayne Co., Missouri, where my father's family > is from. The article concerns two fellows are accused of murdering a > man for $700. (I'm not related to any of them). The article (15 May > 1902) ends thusly: > > > This is the blackest crime and darkest spot in the history of Wayne > > County. Brown has as yet made no confession but is reported to have > > said that if he is executed, he desires to be hanged 15 minutes > before> 12 o?clock so as to get to hell in time for dinner. > > I liked the last remark, so I hit Google and found that Ruloff's > Restaurant in Ithaca claims Edward Rulof said much the same thing. > DickBailey (who published "Rogue Scholar," a book about the > criminal and > philologist Edward Ruloff, last year), says there's no record of > Ruloffhaving said it. Then I found another link for a fellow in > Wyoming who > supposedly said it, too, 5 March 1886. So it's one of those fanciful > pass-alongs, I guess. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 25 17:41:48 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:41:48 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: <20050122050143.76D66B25F1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the details", which I think I have seen at least as often. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Jan 25 18:41:40 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:41:40 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <200501241726.j0OHQsVg027643@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 24/1/05 5:26 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > on Jan 24, 2005, at 8:49 AM, i wrote: > >> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: >> >>> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute >>> ass. >>> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >>> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >>> >>> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, >>> 1969? > > probably the result of cycling through (near-)synonyms, a common > practice of inexperienced writers, of those who have been taught not to > repeat words (but haven't been taught to maintain a consistent tone), > and of writers in certain genres (for instance, porn/erotica). in two > sentences we have "ass" and "rear". "bottom":, "posterior", > "buttocks", "butt", etc. might well be lurking in the neighborhood. > "hirsute", meanwhile, looks like an elegant substitute for "hairy", > which in this context would a bit too vividly physical; "hairy ass" > would be right out, though "hirsute posterior" might have worked. > > (eventually i'll report on some discussion from soc.motss a while back > on "cock" vs. "dick"; a number of americans reported that "cock" seemed > more sexual to them than "dick".) 'Dick' doesn't even get a mention in 'The Anonymous Pornographic Genre: Language, Sequences, Plots, Publishing and Pressures', Other Scholars, New York, Number 1, April 1973 - though the writers do observe that: "Prick is obsolete because of its popular usage denoting stupidity, foolishness." I take it that the unfamiliar word below is another porn-writer's attempt at erudition. Not in my 2-vol Shorter Oxford, but I presume it means 'sheep's-eyes'. 'With a supreme effort she managed to shift her gaze from Dick's arm [under Rene's skirt]; as she looked at Rene's face and saw the agnuopic stare of those green eyes and the wet, parted lips, she received confirmation of the woman's enjoyment.' - Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, 129 From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 19:15:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:15:19 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 12:41 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the > details", > which I think I have seen at least as often. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > Mark's version with "the devil" is the only version that I've ever read. (This is strictly a literary allusion for me.) -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 25 19:31:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:31:34 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes much more fascinating. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the details", which I think I have seen at least as often. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 19:38:44 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:38:44 -0500 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$68e42b@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 1:41 PM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > on 24/1/05 5:26 pm, Arnold M. Zwicky at zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: Richly hirsute >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > --> - >> >> on Jan 24, 2005, at 8:49 AM, i wrote: >> >>> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:36 AM, neil quoted: >>> >>>> "Now," she murmured, sliding her hand down his back to his hirsute >>>> ass. >>>> She pulled at the firm, muscles of his rear, feeling the coarse, >>>> affluent hair stiffen under her smooth palms. >>>> >>>> -Alex Ayers, 'The Soldier's Wife', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, >>>> 1969? > >> >> probably the result of cycling through (near-)synonyms, a common >> practice of inexperienced writers, of those who have been taught not >> to >> repeat words (but haven't been taught to maintain a consistent tone), >> and of writers in certain genres (for instance, porn/erotica). in two >> sentences we have "ass" and "rear". "bottom":, "posterior", >> "buttocks", "butt", etc. might well be lurking in the neighborhood. >> "hirsute", meanwhile, looks like an elegant substitute for "hairy", >> which in this context would a bit too vividly physical; "hairy ass" >> would be right out, though "hirsute posterior" might have worked. >> >> (eventually i'll report on some discussion from soc.motss a while back >> on "cock" vs. "dick"; a number of americans reported that "cock" >> seemed >> more sexual to them than "dick".) > > 'Dick' doesn't even get a mention in 'The Anonymous Pornographic Genre: > Language, Sequences, Plots, Publishing and Pressures', Other Scholars, > New > York, Number 1, April 1973 - though the writers do observe that: > "Prick is > obsolete because of its popular usage denoting stupidity, foolishness." > > > I take it that the unfamiliar word below is another porn-writer's > attempt at > erudition. Not in my 2-vol Shorter Oxford, but I presume it means > 'sheep's-eyes'. > > 'With a supreme effort she managed to shift her gaze from Dick's arm > [under > Rene's skirt]; as she looked at Rene's face and saw the agnuopic stare > of > those green eyes and the wet, parted lips, she received confirmation > of the > woman's enjoyment.' > - Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, > 129 > My word! This stuff makes "Ten-Four: Sex Life of a Cop" from ca.1960 read like Shakespeare! For those of us who learned our English south of the Mason-Dixon Line, continually having to remember to read "cock" as "dick" renders the former *far* less erotic than "dick," I'd wager. All pornographers should be forced to use "love muzzle." Then, even when it's overcorrected to "love muscle," it's still less jarring than the Northern "misuse" of "cock." -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 19:56:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:56:13 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. > > JL But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition is no easy task. -Wilson > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the > details", > which I think I have seen at least as often. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 25 20:03:06 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:03:06 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: <20050125193134.33819.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the "devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows 18,000 hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of "god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas "devil is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like one of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in import. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 20:22:41 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:22:41 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 3:03 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >> much more fascinating. > > I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the > "devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows > 18,000 > hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of > "god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas > "devil > is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like > one > of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in > import. > > Fred Shapiro How old would you guess the "God" version to be? Back in the very early '80's, I was an assistant librarian in an academic architectural library for about three years, without ever hearing - my housemate was a student at that school of architecture and my girlfriend was one of my colleagues - or reading the "God" version. On the other hand, I've been familiar with the "devil" version practically since I got past seeing Dick and Jane run in the mid '40's. -Wilson Gray > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Jan 25 21:04:09 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:04:09 +0000 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: <200501251938.j0PJcuC8009589@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 25/1/05 7:38 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > > For those of us who learned our English south of the Mason-Dixon Line, > continually having to remember to read "cock" as "dick" renders the > former *far* less erotic than "dick," I'd wager. All pornographers > should be forced to use "love muzzle." Then, even when it's > overcorrected to "love muscle," it's still less jarring than the > Northern "misuse" of "cock." > > -Wilson Gray And I expect that now readers will realise that 'cocksucker' is not an implication of homosexuality, but rather of supposed male 'weakness' in that the object of the allegation would (pre-New-Man enlightenment) stoop to performing the 'genital kiss.' -Neil Crawford From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Jan 25 21:33:07 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:33:07 -0500 Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") -- a retraction Message-ID: Jon Lighter asked me whether I was sure that the 1749 passage given below read "fly" and not "sly" (with a long s). This is a trap I am wary of, but this time I got caught. On re-examination, the first letter looks like an "f", but the horizontal stroke pretty clearly is no the left side of the rising stroke; it isn't a cross-stroke. So it is a long s, and the word is "sly". Sorry about that. These 18th C. chaps must have had pretty sharp eyes. In addition: the passage came from the sort of political slanging that ordinarily I don't look at, but somehow the supposed "fly" caught my eye. I skimmed the essay to see whether there was any other slang words in it, and all the rest was in the chastest vocabulary you could wish for, so that "fly" would have been incongruous, which should have occurred to me at the time. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Thompson Date: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:49 pm Subject: "fly" = "hip" (or, if you prefer, "hep") > Under "fly", adjective, HDAS discerns two related senses: sense 1a (= > wide awake) *1724, *1821, *1850, &c. (all English); 1872 (US); > sense 1b > (= aware) *1811, *1812 (both English); 1839 (US) (I abbreviate the > definitions and leave out the supporting quotations, but we all sleep > with HDAS on the nightstand, don't we?) > > Whichever sense the first of these two below goes under, it is a > prettyneat antedating in the U. S. The fact that it comes 50+ > years before > the 2nd earliest English citation is all right, too. > > 1749: That the fly Ones should not suspect you for a Courtier, you > have been likewise very arch in giving us to understand, that you had > been heretofore pleased to encourage and support the Party. > N-Y Gazette Revived, January 16, 1748-9, p. 1, col. 1 > [from a > political diatribe, responding to last week's political diatribe] > > 1824: The carriages, wagons, horsemen, and pedestrians, who > seemed to > make Coney Island their place of destination, amounted to a > considerable number; the roads were lined and adorned with them in > every direction; the regulars were numerous -- the knowing ones were > up, and the downy ones were all fly. > The Emerald, October 16, 1824, p. 109, cols. 1-2. [a report on a > prizefight] > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 25 21:43:27 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:43:27 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:03 PM -0500 1/25/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >> much more fascinating. > >I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the >"devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows 18,000 >hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of >"god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas "devil >is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like one >of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in >import. > One factor may be the alliterative effect of the "devil in the details" version, along the lines of "give the devil his due". Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 25 22:02:28 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:02:28 -0800 Subject: innovations in headlinese Message-ID: over on the newsgroup sci.lang, ron hardin (rnhardin at mindspring.com) posts about some innovative Washington Post headlines (possibly from the same headline writer): ----- Re: To May Date: Sun Jan 23 01:27:41 PST 2005 Ind. Fire Said May Take Days to Burn Out http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11424-2005Jan15.html? ABTest=blurb_A Seepage Said Likely Didn't Cause Oil Spill LOS ANGELES - A mysterious oil spill that killed hundreds of birds on the Southern California coast was probably not caused by natural seepage from the ocean floor, investigators said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29901-2005Jan22.html? ABTest=blurb_A ------ these are of the form SUBJECT said VPfinite. a follow-up misses the point (note hardin's header "To May") by citing ordinary headlinese, of the form SUBJECT said PREDICATIVE understood as meaning something like 'SUBJECT is said to be PREDICATIVE', that is as involving a passive of a Subject-to-Object Raising (SOR) clause with a copular VP. ----- From: Bart Mathias Re: To May Date: Sun Jan 23 19:34:13 PST 2005 "Ind. Fire Said Difficult to Extinguish" and "Seepage Said Not Likely Cause of Oil Spill" wouldn't have caught my attention. How different are they, really? ----- the innovative headlines look like a syntactic generalization from the everday ones, which are pretty straightforwardly "telegraphic"; copular "to be" is omitted. in fact, they're two steps away from the everyday ones. ordinary headlinese doesn't allow the omission of "to" with non-copular VPs in SOR passives: (1) Risk Said Increase With Age 'the risk is said to increase with age' if things like this were possible, they'd be a source for extension to finite VPs, as in (2) Risk Said Increases With Age (3) Risk Said Can Increase With Age. but they're not possible, so the reanalysis of headlinese looks like it was direct, with "said" in (4) Fire Said Difficult to Extinguish (mis)taken to be a kind of reportive particle: 'it is said: Fire Difficult to Extinguish'. or more generally, "SUBJECT said XP" is understood as something like 'it is said: HEADLINE-CLAUSE-OF-FORM-SUBJECT+XP". then since (5) Risk Increases With Age (6) Risk Can Increase With Age are perfectly fine headline clauses, headlines (2) and (3) are licensed. and so are the Washington Post examples. note that this story depends on the headline writer(s) *not* treating things like (4) as telegraphic. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), wondering if verbs other than "said" ("reported", "claimed", "alleged", etc.) can go the same route From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 25 22:04:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:04:51 -0600 Subject: google video Message-ID: Google has an experimental feature where they are capturing the Closed Caption feed for several channels/networks, and letting you do searches on them. This opens up a whole 'nother corpus of spoken English. http://video.google.com/ From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Jan 25 22:05:56 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:05:56 -0500 Subject: Richly hirsute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 4:04 PM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: Richly hirsute > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > on 25/1/05 7:38 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> >> For those of us who learned our English south of the Mason-Dixon Line, >> continually having to remember to read "cock" as "dick" renders the >> former *far* less erotic than "dick," I'd wager. All pornographers >> should be forced to use "love muzzle." Then, even when it's >> overcorrected to "love muscle," it's still less jarring than the >> Northern "misuse" of "cock." >> >> -Wilson Gray > > And I expect that now readers will realise that 'cocksucker' is not an > implication of homosexuality, but rather of supposed male 'weakness' > in that > the object of the allegation would (pre-New-Man enlightenment) stoop to > performing the 'genital kiss.' > -Neil Crawford > As a matter of actual fact, a woman once asked me how it could be that "cocksucker" is an an insult when her own experience was that men loved to have their cocks sucked. This happened after I had become with the Northern/White-English usage. Otherwise, such a question would have been empty of content. When I was familiar with only the Southern/Black-English usage, the only meaning that "cocksucker" had was that of "cunnilinctor" and it had not the slightest insinuation of weakness. Any one of the very few who claimed to be a cocksucker was regarded with shock and awe and respect, as one who had the nerve, the desire, the willingness, and the skill to do whatever it took to fetch a girl or a woman to climax. In order to combat this, a guy who didn't have the nerve to perform cunnilingus or, at least, the balls to claim that he had (FWIW, the first time that I saw this seriously discussed in print, the word used was "cunnilinctus"), would say, "When I come, I don't come from the lip. When I come, I come from the hip!" As any fool can plainly see, this was a pretty lame comment that never succeeded in drawing the attention of the clique away from the reputed cocksucker, in this case, one Marion Thames ([tEmz] => [tImz]), who had a great name, great looks, and strong conversation. -Wilson Gray From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Jan 25 22:08:36 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:08:36 -0600 Subject: Beverage architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was a full time bartender in the late 60s, in Chicago and "build" was common then Laurence Horn wrote: > At 7:52 AM -0800 1/25/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > >> Never heard that. >> Fritz J >> >>>>> neil at TYPOG.CO.UK 01/25/05 01:36AM >>> >>>> >> As a Limey I'd get you a drink, make you a drink or fix you a drink (the >> latter if I used more than one component). >> >> Just when did Americans begin to build drinks? Not only build them, >> but also >> repair/rebuild them! > > > very odd. in the old days, refreshing them was enough. Well, this > way it does sound as though we're burning more calories when we do > it--"The snow was too deep to go out to exercise, but I worked out > rebuilding my drinks." > > larry > >> >> 'She sipped at the repaired drink with pleasure...' >> >> 'His own drink was almost gone so he rebuilt it.' >> >> -Marty Machlia, 'Electric Swap', Greenleaf Classics, San Diego, 1970, >> 130 > > > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jan 25 22:07:04 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:07:04 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know how old it is, but the German equivalent, "Der Teufel steckt im Detail," is a staple in books of German idioms, and I've never heard *"(Der Herr) Gott steckt im Detail." It doesn't sound like a recent borrowing, nor is alliteration a factor, and the presence of the same idiom in both languages makes me think they must both go back a ways. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:43 PM -0500 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 3:03 PM -0500 1/25/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >>> much more fascinating. >> >> I always thought of the "god" version as the primary saying and the >> "devil" one as a less common derivative, but a Google search shows 18,000 >> hits for "god" and 109,000 for "devil." It may be that the currency of >> "god is in the details" is mostly in architecture contexts whereas "devil >> is in the details" has become a popular general proverb. Seems like one >> of those situations where there are two proverbs that are opposite in >> import. >> > One factor may be the alliterative effect of the "devil in the > details" version, along the lines of "give the devil his due". > > Larry ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 25 22:28:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:28:56 -0800 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: So "God is in the details" means exactly the opposite. If there is an opposite. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. > > JL But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition is no easy task. -Wilson > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the > details", > which I think I have seen at least as often. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 25 22:40:09 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:40:09 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) Message-ID: I think the meaning of the two phrases is pretty close, though not identical. "God is in the details" is typically applied in artistic contexts (particularly in architecture) and means that great art is achieved through attention to detail. "The devil is in the details" means that close attention to detail is required to find problems with a complex proposal or arrangement. I believe that the latter phrase achieved broad popularization in the 1980s in political contexts, particularly with respect to arms control treaties and tax legislation, in both of which areas very close attention indeed to the details is required to find the devil. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 5:29 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) So "God is in the details" means exactly the opposite. If there is an opposite. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes > much more fascinating. > > JL But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition is no easy task. -Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 01:55:17 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:55:17 EST Subject: "exact(ual)ly" Message-ID: FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > > Song of the South is WAY PI. "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >And unfortunately, we won't be able to find out by watching the film, >since Disney is quietly leaving it on the shelf, not to be >released again in theaters, on the tube, or in videotape or DVD. >Which is a shame, because despite its antediluvian portrayal >of 19th century Blacks, it is a good movie. Thanks to both of you for answering my question about the PC-ness of "Song of the South". Do you happen to know the PC rating of Vachel Lindsay's poem "The Congo"? - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 02:01:43 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:01:43 EST Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:29:36 -0800, John McChesney-Young quoted > The verb doesn't appear here, though. On the other hand, another > (British-only?) term I'd not seen before does, apparently unusual > enough to warrant quotes: > > Delegates from the drinks industry, the police, public health, the > drug and alcohol advisory sector and local authorities heard how > happy hours, alcopops, growing affluence and the British obsession > with "necking it" as the night goes on all play a part. > > (end quotes) > > Another British article defines it by context: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2004/02/14/ > paul14.xml&sSheet=/education/2004/02/14/ixteright.html > > Sipping it, not necking it > (Filed: 14/02/2004) > > Students are as keen as ever on drinking - but more want quality, not > quantity, says Simon Brooke. "Necking" certainly seems to mean "drinking from [the neck of] a bottle instead of from a glass", i.e. "chug-a-lugging". I have a 1963 citation for "drinking from the neck" if anyone be interested. Did "happy hour" originate in the US and get exported to Britain, or vice versa, or what? And what pray tell is an "alcopop"? (and how long will it take Barry "Alco" Popik to find an antedating?) - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 02:06:58 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:06:58 EST Subject: Antedating of "Computer" Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:56:43 -0500, Fred Shapiro writes > > I have previously antedated "computer" in its modern (machine) sense. Could you please give us the citation? The earliest I know of is 1943 (from Goldstine discussing the ENIAC committee) and there is no reason to conclude this was an original coinage. (I will be happy to repost this cite if anyone asks). - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 02:45:23 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:45:23 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > Could you please give us the citation? The earliest I know of is 1943 (from > Goldstine discussing the ENIAC committee) and there is no reason to conclude > this was an original coinage. (I will be happy to repost this cite if anyone > asks). 1869 Marion Harland _Phemie's Temptation_ 12 Phemie made no reply. Her pen was slowly traversing the length of the page, at an elevation of a quarter of an inch above the paper, her eyes following the course of the nib, as if it were the index of a patent computer. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 03:00:48 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:00:48 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: > How old would you guess the "God" version to be? I have traced it back to 1925. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Jan 26 02:37:25 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:37:25 -0600 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club but to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McChesney-Young" Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search field did turn up this article, though: Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 03:46:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:46:33 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: It may not fit all the cites, but consider the possibility that "glass-bottle" means (or will someday mean) "to throttle." Just a Yank's wild guess. JL Dave Hause wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Hause Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club but to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McChesney-Young" Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search field did turn up this article, though: Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 04:29:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:29:25 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$69fgu3@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Fred. I had no idea that it was so recent. For some reason, it's always seemed kind of 19th-century to me. -Wilson Gray On Jan 25, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Fred Shapiro > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> How old would you guess the "God" version to be? > > I have traced it back to 1925. > > Fred Shapiro > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 04:33:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:33:31 -0500 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 10:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It may not fit all the cites, but consider the possibility that > "glass-bottle" means (or will someday mean) "to throttle." > > Just a Yank's wild guess. > > JL But, according to the rules of rhyming slang, wouldn't we expect "to glass" to come to mean "to throttle"? -Wilson > > Dave Hause wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Hause > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would > suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club > but > to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the > handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John McChesney-Young" > > Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of > speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and > strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful > as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search > field did turn up this article, though: > > Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 04:46:30 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:46:30 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2005, at 5:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill > (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > So "God is in the details" means exactly the opposite. > > If there is an opposite. > > JL Good point. The "God" version obviously must mean something like, "Not bringing an idea to fruition is an easy task." -Wilson > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 25, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill >> (1930) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> The version with "devil" is so common that the "God" version becomes >> much more fascinating. >> >> JL > > But what does it mean? I've always assumed that the "devil" version > means something like, "a good opening sentence, in and of itself, does > not the Great American Novel make." I.e., bringing an idea to fruition > is no easy task. > > -Wilson > >> >> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960); No names, no pack-drill (1930) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I don't see any mention in this thread of "The devil is in the >> details", >> which I think I have seen at least as often. >> >> -- Mark >> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 26 06:15:39 2005 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:15:39 -0800 Subject: antedate for "love child" Message-ID: THE NATURAL SON, or, Lover's Vows, a Play, in 5 Acts. Bu Augustus von Kotzerik, Poet-Laureat, and Director of the Imperial Theaters at Vienna.... The Natural Son, or Child of Love, is the justly-admired Play which is now performing, wich such universal Applause, at the Theatre Royal, Covent Garden, under the altered Title of LOVER'S VOWS. Advertisement in the Times, Oct 19, 1798. The OED has 1805 for 'love child', and the cite suggests a German origin: "Miss Blenheim being, what in that country is denominated, a love-child." Perhaps the Kotzerik play was the point of entry. I'm interested in "love child" because while it was originally a euphemism for 'bastard' (Trench wrote in 1855, "what a source of mischief in all our country parishes is the one practice of calling a child born out of wedlock, a 'love-child' instead of a bastard"), it's still being used after "bastard" has become pretty much outdated in its literal meaning and illegitimacy itself is no longer a topic people feel they have to dance around. I've been trying to think of other cases where an expression retains a euphemistic character -- as the frequent use of quotes around "love child" demonstrates it surely does -- even after the word it was originally meant to euphemize is no longer used in the relevant sense. Geoff Nunberg From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 26 04:19:40 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:40 -0500 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: <13cf01c5034f$fafcd320$895f12d0@dwhause> Message-ID: If "glass bottle" [verb] is in use one might expect to find more-or-less equivalent "bottle" [verb] either as the basic version or by abbreviation. Google for <<"bottled him">> shows a number of instances where "bottle" appears to mean "strike with a bottle", i.e., "use a bottle as a club or blunt weapon" (not "use a broken bottle as a cutting weapon"). There are also some examples where "bottle" [v.t.] would seem to mean "throw bottles at". I would suppose that "glass-bottle" [v.t.] must at least sometimes have the same meaning. Note that almost all bottles which are readily available and suitable for use as weapons are glass bottles. The expression seems to be more popular in the UK, maybe. -- Doug Wilson From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 26 07:11:42 2005 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:11:42 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050125230704.02f84970@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:40 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > If "glass bottle" [verb] is in use one might expect to find more-or-less > equivalent "bottle" [verb] either as the basic version or by abbreviation. > > Google for <<"bottled him">> shows a number of instances where "bottle" > appears to mean "strike with a bottle", i.e., "use a bottle as a club or > blunt weapon" (not "use a broken bottle as a cutting weapon"). There are > also some examples where "bottle" [v.t.] would seem to mean "throw bottles at". > > I would suppose that "glass-bottle" [v.t.] must at least sometimes have the > same meaning. Note that almost all bottles which are readily available and > suitable for use as weapons are glass bottles. > > The expression seems to be more popular in the UK, maybe. Probert gives (among other slang bottle defns) "Bottle is slang for to injure by thrusting a broken bottle into a person." peevish.co.uk gives (among other slang bottle defns) "Verb. To smash a bottle into a person's face, very often a beer bottle after a drinking spree." There may be other definitions at sites out there. Found these with From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM Wed Jan 26 07:20:36 2005 From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:20:36 -0800 Subject: Oscar bait: 1955? Message-ID: A curious dilettante tries his hand at documenting slang, inspired by this morning's Oscar nominations. Oscar bait 16,700 hits on Google 349 hits on Google Groups and, what the hey, 39 hits on Google News The earliest I can find with what's available through the Seattle Public Library's website is Dec. 4, 1955, from the New York Times p. X5, via ProQuest: "Hollywood Views: 'Harder They Fall' Production Team's Counterpunches--Other Matters" by Thomas M. Pryor The Academy Award fever is mounting. Columbia is so anxious to put "Picnic" in the running that the studio has arranged a special one-week engagement of the film at the Warner Beverly Theatre, starting Tuesday. Academy rules stipulate that pictures must be show publicly for at least seven days in Los Angeles before Dec. 31 to be eligible for nomination. Columbia is so certain its production of the Broadway stage success is "Oscar" bait that Harry Cohn, president, took a page advertisement in Hollywood trade papers inviting the prospective Academy member voters to view the show "as guests of Columbia Pictures Corporation" during the special theatre run. -- James Callan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 08:47:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:47:39 EST Subject: Smythe's "Lick in alley, beat in rink" (1955) Message-ID: All right, I'll look through the Toronto Star "Pages of the Past." But I guarantee you, the $5 I spent is more than I'll make all year, if ever. ... The quote was very difficult to find. Is it "beat" or "lick"? "Ice" or "rink"? "Them" or "'em"? Further complicating matters was a personal name of "Alley." Also, there's more than one "Smythe." And is it "Conn" or "Connie" or "Conny"? ... I found the quote from 1955. I'll also check out the book below. ... ... ... (NYPL CATNYP) Title War games : Conn Smythe and hockey's fighting men / Doug Hunter. Imprint Toronto : Viking, 1996. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2v7LMnx6KqPyvlgkk2UCGfUI9PdM+A/LeEIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 18, 1976 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+lick+em+in+the+alley) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+lick+em+in+the+alley) ...pro hockey. THE man who once you can't LICK 'EM IN THE ALLEY you can't beat 'EM.....to wIN THE he said. He did not strike IN THE 10th and did not need too IN THE.. ... _Bucks County Courier Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2uZ3shyR7xZuvoi/obeoj4DQHalkHYTMtkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 18, 1976 _Levittown,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:levittown+lick+em+in+the+alley) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+lick+em+in+the+alley) ...pro hockey. THE man who once you can't LICK 'EM IN THE ALLEY you can't beat 'EM.....THE tangle of legal problEMs because IN THE courts THE Rozelle Rule and THE.. ... ... (PAGES OF THE PAST) ... 9 October 1955, Toronto Star, pg. 22, col. 1: One of Smythe's more publicized utterances was that he'd fine any Leaf who won the Lady Byng trophy, an award that's associated with politeness on skates. Smiddy (Sidney James Smith--ed.) has won it twice in the last four years. So he winds up as captain of the club. Smythe couldn't have been misquoted, because he never bothered to deny the yarn. So the chances are his proclamation was meant for the particular situation which existed at the time. He also got international credit--or discredit--for the theory, "if you can't lick 'em in the alley, you can't lick 'em in the rink." Capt. Sid never spent more than 28 minutes in the penalty coop during one season. His nirmal stretch in stir, over a 70-game schedule, is something like 10 to 13 minutes. So if Sid licked anyone, it must have been out in the alley, well removed from the referees. ... ... 19 November 1980, Toronto Star, "Smythe leaves a rich legacy" editorial, pg. 8, col. 1: His most famous quote--"If you can't lick 'em in the alley, you can't beat 'em on the ice"--reflected his approach to life as much as his philosophy of hockey. He was a scrappy little gambler who relentlessly pursued whatever he thought was right. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jan 26 10:25:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:25:02 EST Subject: "Clod" from Texas Message-ID: "Clod," as in a shoulder of beef from Texas. "Clod" is in OED and DARE, but not in this sense. It's not in William Grimes's EATING YOUR WORDS. ... This was written up in this week's Village Voice: ... _http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0504,sietsema,60393,15.html_ (http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0504,sietsema,60393,15.html) ... Though you can also get pork ribs and pork chops, the emphasis is on beef, most especially brisket ("fat beef") and shoulder ("lean beef"). Also known as "clod," the latter resembles a clod of earth from the surrounding cotton fields in its humpy blackness, and tastes something like smoked roast beef. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _The Sonoran Grill - meats & fi: Texas Slow-smoked Clod Of Beef_ (http://www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display.asp?rec=117) ... Texas Slow-smoked Clod Of Beef. This process also works well with beef brisket. print it! Clod Of Beef. Barbecue Rub. Barbecue Sauce. ... www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display.asp?rec=117 - 25k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_YZ0xbH1OrcJ:www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display.as p?rec=117+clod+and+texas&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.sonorangrill.com/recipes/display. asp?rec=117) ... _The Lone Star Iconoclast Online_ (http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50news05.htm) ... market.? On the recent trip, the Russian chefs focused on Texas cuisine through ... foodservice gets high value from cuts like the shoulder clod, brisket, and ... www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50news05.htm - 11k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:CYx-YvYX2q0J:www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50new s05.htm+clod+and+texas&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2004/50ne ws05.htm) ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _Recipe for Beef Shoulder_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_frm/thread/dd0f21a89817f5 4c/ed4981c0c2035a8b?q=clod+and+texas+beef&_done=/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=clod+and+texas+beef&&_doneTitle=Back+to +Search&&d#ed4981c0c2035a8b) Are you talking about shoulder clod? As in what you get at Kruez' Market in Texas? ... Hi, I'm looking for a recipe that uses beef shoulder. _rec.food.cooking_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking) - May 7 2001, 4:36 pm by smokin - 5 messages - 5 authors ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2l5T0pCunoRROMyErHIGbQz/XFyoqAKe1w==) Friday, April 10, 1896 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+shoulder+and+clod+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+shoulder+and+clod+AND) ...neck, brisket, knuckle AND SHOULDER CLOD, were quite as rich ia protein AND.....its nutritive qualities. The SHOULDER CLOD by aaa'yMs contains quite as much.. ... _Davenport Daily Republican _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3YGl/Jks4m6KID/6NLMW2nM/LzxMe8RXIbkV9xtXMBpJ+q0wEqLFskIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, April 19, 1896 _Davenport,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:davenport+shoulder+and+clod+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+shoulder+and+clod+AND) ...its nutritive qualities. The SHOULDER CLOD by analysis contains quite as much.....muscle with names such as knuckle AND SHOULDER were quite as rich iu protein.. ... _North Adams Transcript _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2vp0bHPUdKT4KZkvmd44PDK4z8x9dnNO0EIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, October 12, 1900 _North Adams,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:north_adams+shoulder+and+clod+AND) _Massachusetts_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+shoulder+and+clod+AND ) ...U 15 20 20 10 to 5 to 10 11 SHOULDER CLOD Corned 10 11 H 1G i TInncy Comb 3.....1000 Ibs. MurraH'a SOO Iba. KiTs 10 SHOULDER Slum Rib 11 Sirloin 16.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- OT: TYLER & COWANS ... Someone asked about the words "Tyler" and "Cowans" on Dave Wilton's word origins site. Tyler Cowan, as I've mentioned before, is my old chess friend who has a web page on Washington, DC restaurants. Hm, maybe I should eat out at restaurants. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 13:20:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:20:15 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: Yes, but not necessarily right away. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2005, at 10:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It may not fit all the cites, but consider the possibility that > "glass-bottle" means (or will someday mean) "to throttle." > > Just a Yank's wild guess. > > JL But, according to the rules of rhyming slang, wouldn't we expect "to glass" to come to mean "to throttle"? -Wilson > > Dave Hause wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Hause > Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would > suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club > but > to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the > handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John McChesney-Young" > > Since Google inconveniently doesn't allow one to distinguish parts of > speech in searches, "glass bottle" is useless as a search phrase, and > strings like "to glass bottle" and "glass bottled" aren't as helpful > as I'd hoped at first they might be. Adding "violence" to the search > field did turn up this article, though: > > Surgeon on glass bottle 'weapon' > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3211769.stm > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Wed Jan 26 13:37:15 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:37:15 +0000 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 13:40:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:40:34 -0800 Subject: "Glass bottle" (vb) Message-ID: Thanks, Jon. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Hause wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dave Hause Subject: Re: "Glass bottle" (vb) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- With absolutely no literary citation, but an ex-cop's memory, I would suggest that "glass bottle" as a verb refers not to using it as a club but to smashing it in the middle of the dilated part, using the neck as the handle, and using the broken end as a cutting or slashing weapon. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO I missed some of this thread - notably its inception, so my apologies if this has already been put forward - but Dave Hause's suggestion fits with the UK use of the slang verb glass, a term which has been around since at least the 1930s and means to slash someone's face by hitting them there with a broken beer glass or bottle. It is, unsurprisingly, a popular means of violence within public houses. With respect to JL, glass bottle has yet to appear in any collection of rhyming slang I have encountered. Indeed I can't trace any term that means to throttle. Given the mutability of the rhyming slang lexis, this of course doesn't guarantee that it isn't out there somewhere. Jonathon Green __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 26 14:30:52 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:30:52 -0500 Subject: Truly, truly awful Message-ID: Dave Plotkin, a DJ at WPRK (the radio station for Rollins College, the local liberal arts college) and an acquaintance of mine, recently stayed on the air for 110 hours straight to set a new world record (and raise money for the station). There were a few bits in the local media about it, one of which described the station as playing ...the most godawful and sublime music you've never heard before. (Exact wording of the line from memory.) Jeanne, my wife, was reading this column out loud to our daughters, and she read the word "godawful" as [g@'da.fl] (where @ is a schwa); i asked her to reread the sentence, and she did so with the same pronunciation. This contrasts with my pronunciation, which is ['ga.dO.fl] (where O is open-o). The cot-caught thing aside, has anyone else here ever run across Jeanne's pronunciation (or never heard mine, FTM) of this word? My first thought was that it was a strategy for avoiding saying "god", since Jeanne and i were both raised in a faith culture in which one simply doesn't *say* "god" outside of religious or technical contexts, but i'm curious if it's more widespread than just that. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Jan 26 14:37:38 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:37:38 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb Message-ID: Last evening Jeanne (my wife) and i went to our 5yo daughter's school's "reading night", which had a "parenting tips" session as part of it. One (linguistic) thing i was struck by is that "consequence" was used as a verb multiple times, and that by both the person leading the session *and* a couple of the parents. Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being used as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun "consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among child-rearing types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a while now? It made me think of George Carlin's routine on the emotional bleaching of "shellshock" as it changed, by stages, into "post-traumatic stress disorder". Anyway, might as well consider this a very, very early nomination for the "most useless" category in the WotY 2k5 voting. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 26 14:38:44 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:38:44 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Today's For Better or for Worse comic strip uses a number of slang terms that are unfamiliar to me. I don't know if that's because the strip is set in Ontario, or if it's because I'm an old fogey, but I suspect the latter. Two teenagers are discussing a friend: April: Becky thinks she's so hot because she's going out with a guy in grade 12. Duncan: Yeah, she's hangin' high! April: She's only just turned 14. What would a guy who's 17 see in her?! Duncan: You're kidding me, right? Duncan: April, Becky is "hands on" . . . She's a "gig"! She's "roadside," man! April: You mean . . . she's "been there"? Duncan: Yeah . . . an' once you've "been there," you ain't comin' back! The strip is at http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/000938.php. John Baker From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Jan 26 14:47:31 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:47:31 -0000 Subject: Grass roots In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA6F9@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: A subscriber has asked about the origins of this expression in the sense of the rank and file of an political body. Back in March, David Barnhart asked whether anybody knew of it from the 1880s but I can't find a reply in the archives. The OED has it from June 1912 in reference to the attempt by Teddy Roosevelt to become president. I've found a number of examples from that year, all in reference to his campaign, which might suggest it was coined by somebody connected to it. There's also one from 1920 on newpaperarchive.com that links the sense to Roosevelt's principles. "America in So Many Words" dates it to 1902, but that is in the sense of the fundamentals of a situation. Before I go public suggesting a direct link to the 1912 Roosevelt campaign, can anybody provide evidence that suggests it isn't so? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 15:31:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:31:57 -0800 Subject: "at your own risk" Message-ID: The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and Destroy - Use at your own risk!" Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? What's with this? JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 15:42:27 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:42:27 -0500 Subject: antedate for "love child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:15 PM -0800 1/25/05, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >THE NATURAL SON, or, Lover's Vows, a Play, in 5 Acts. Bu Augustus von >Kotzerik, Poet-Laureat, and Director of the Imperial Theaters at >Vienna.... The Natural Son, or Child of Love, is the justly-admired >Play which is now performing, wich such universal Applause, at the >Theatre Royal, Covent Garden, under the altered Title of LOVER'S >VOWS. Advertisement in the Times, Oct 19, 1798. > >The OED has 1805 for 'love child', and the cite suggests a German >origin: "Miss Blenheim being, what in that country is denominated, a >love-child." Perhaps the Kotzerik play was the point of entry. > >I'm interested in "love child" because while it was originally a >euphemism for 'bastard' (Trench wrote in 1855, "what a source of >mischief in all our country parishes is the one practice of calling a >child born out of wedlock, a 'love-child' instead of a bastard"), >it's still being used after "bastard" has become pretty much outdated >in its literal meaning and illegitimacy itself is no longer a topic >people feel they have to dance around. I've been trying to think of >other cases where an expression retains a euphemistic character -- as >the frequent use of quotes around "love child" demonstrates it surely >does -- even after the word it was originally meant to euphemize is >no longer used in the relevant sense. > As an exercise, I imagined first Edmund stage center (Lear I.ii) declaiming Edmund the base Shall top the legitimate. I grow, I prosper. Now, gods, stand up for love children! and then Diana Ross belting out, with the other Supremes backing her: Tenement slum (ooh, ooh, ooh, aaah) You think that I don't feel love What I feel for you is real love In other's eyes I see reflected A hurt, scorned, rejected Bastard Bastard Born in poverty Bastard Never meant to be Bastard Scorned by society Bastard Different from the rest Bastard Always second-best (or was that second hand? or second nature?) Larry From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Jan 26 15:58:11 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:58:11 -0500 Subject: "at your own risk" In-Reply-To: <20050126152441.E8A9523C455@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? My guess is that SpyBot is emphatically declining to take responsibility if something goes wrong. Erik From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jan 26 16:23:37 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:23:37 -0800 Subject: Hotel Journalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is it too early to start collecting WOTY nominees for 2005? hotel journalism, n., the practice of reporting on events in a dangerous place from the safety of one's western-style hotel. AFP, 12 Jan 2005 1433 hrs (GMT +8) in http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/126951/1/.html (time is when it was posted to this web site; I believe the AFP wire story may be dated 11 Jan): Leonard Doyle, foreign editor of The Independent in London, said, "we make a big effort not to do what you might call 'hotel journalism,' and we make a very big effort not to sub-contract work to local Iraqi journalists -- we think that's basically unfair. It's a risk to them. We carry the same risk." Of some 2200 Google hits, almost all are associated with the Independent or with Robert Fisk, its Baghdad correspondent. We'll see if it catches on. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 16:23:02 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:23:02 -0600 Subject: Oscar bait: 1955? Message-ID: "Looking at Hollywood" Hedda Hopper Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963); Jun 1, 1948; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Chicago Tribune (1890 - 1958) pg. A8 "Oscar Bait" is a paragraph title in this article. >From Newspaper archive: Ohio | Zanesville | Zanesville Signal | 1942-04-28 "Walter Winchell on Broadway", p. 6 col 2. "The Magic Lantern: The week's cargo of celluloid included no Oscar bait, but most of the photos were very genic." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of James Callan > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:21 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Oscar bait: 1955? > > The earliest I can find with what's available through the > Seattle Public Library's website is Dec. 4, 1955, from the > New York Times p. > X5, via ProQuest: > > "Hollywood Views: 'Harder They Fall' Production Team's > Counterpunches--Other Matters" by Thomas M. Pryor > > The Academy Award fever is mounting. Columbia is so anxious > to put "Picnic" in the running that the studio has arranged a > special one-week engagement of the film at the Warner Beverly > Theatre, starting Tuesday. > Academy rules stipulate that pictures must be show publicly > for at least seven days in Los Angeles before Dec. 31 to be > eligible for nomination. Columbia is so certain its > production of the Broadway stage success is "Oscar" bait that > Harry Cohn, president, took a page advertisement in Hollywood > trade papers inviting the prospective Academy member voters > to view the show "as guests of Columbia Pictures Corporation" > during the special theatre run. > > -- > James Callan > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 26 16:33:48 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:33:48 -0500 Subject: Hotel Journalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice find. It is similar to the "toe-touch," a trip taken by a reporter merely to acquire the proper dateline on a story, even though all reporting is done somewhere else or by someone else. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Jan 26, 2005, at 11:23, Dave Wilton wrote: > Is it too early to start collecting WOTY nominees for 2005? > hotel journalism, n., the practice of reporting on events in a > dangerous > place from the safety of one's western-style hotel. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Jan 26 16:45:39 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:45:39 -0500 Subject: "at your own risk" In-Reply-To: <20050126153157.77164.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's the software equivalent of the warning stickers on ladders that say "don't fall off, and don't sue us if you do." SpyBot mucks about in strange places in the system software, which can be treacherous because some viruses and trojans enmesh themselves so tightly with it. If SpyBot hoses your puter when it's supposed to be getting rid of baddies, then the developers of SpyBot absolve themselves of all responsibility for your data loss or loss of days. The developers are German, I believe, so puns and jokes seem a little less likely than if they were from the anglosphere. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org PS: In your case, Jon, it would be at *my* own risk. : 0 ) On Jan 26, 2005, at 10:31, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? From gorion at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 26 16:42:25 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:42:25 -0500 Subject: Truly, truly awful In-Reply-To: <41f7ab3f.5ff6ca09.48fe.03b1SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: I heard your wife's pronunciation once, in the mid-late nineties, on a high-school girl from Phoenix. I assumed it was a mis-parsing of the words in the compound, like the couple people I've met who pronounce "albeit" with two syllables to rhyme with German "arbeit" (i.e. /Al'baIt/). But the idea that godawful might be euphemistically "mispronounced" is interesting; reminds me of the OED citation from Farquhar that says, of "zounds": "Zoons is only us'd by the disbanded Officers and Bullies: but Zauns is the Beaux pronuncation [sic]" -- that the invocation of god's wounds is less coarse if they can't really make out that you're saying "wounds". On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:30:52 -0500, David Bowie wrote: > Jeanne, my wife, was reading this column out loud to our daughters, and she > read the word "godawful" as [g@'da.fl] (where @ is a schwa); i asked her to > reread the sentence, and she did so with the same pronunciation. This > contrasts with my pronunciation, which is ['ga.dO.fl] (where O is open-o). > > The cot-caught thing aside, has anyone else here ever run across Jeanne's > pronunciation (or never heard mine, FTM) of this word? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:28:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:28:31 -0800 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts (16 [2004]: 151). Is anyone familiar with this usage? JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 26 17:40:13 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:40:13 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: <20050126050239.CCE13B25F1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: John Baker says: >>> I think the meaning of the two phrases is pretty close, though not identical. "God is in the details" is typically applied in artistic contexts (particularly in architecture) and means that great art is achieved through attention to detail. "The devil is in the details" means that close attention to detail is required to find problems with a complex proposal or arrangement. I believe that the latter phrase achieved broad popularization in the 1980s in political contexts, particularly with respect to arms control treaties and tax legislation, in both of which areas very close attention indeed to the details is required to find the devil. <<< I hadn't heard the God version enough to have figured out a supposed meaning for it. I understood the devil version much as you did. I'd've defined it thus: There can be / are likely to be errors or gotchas down at fine levels of detail, where you won't notice them until it's too late unless you examine and predict interactions and so on very carefully. I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not sought out and eliminated. I like the hominess of the troublemaker hiding amidst the firewood out back, and I have tried to keep that image in use as "the goblin in the woodpile". It helps, I guess, that my family and many of my friends are sf/fantasy fans. mark by hand From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:45:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:45:38 -0800 Subject: Thou & You in 1713 Message-ID: The following exchange was imagined in 18th C. York. It well exemplifies the days when plural or honorific "you" was replacing singular "thou" in daily speech. (Actually, there's something this paragraph for just about everyone!) "Passing over Foss-Bridge, a couple of Brawny brawling Shrews, well match'd in a Tongue-Duel, out-did all the Bells in the Parish, or Bull-baitings in Christendom, for unmannerly Noise and Barbarity; their jangling Clappers were enough to turn all the Drink in the Neighbourhood, and sour the very Society of the World. Why, says one, thou lyest [sic] like a Punk, a Thief, and a Witch. Well, but you Bitch, you, says the other, You lie [sic] like an Almanack-maker, that lies every Hour of the Day, and all the Year long. No, you Jade, you out-do the famous Bully P----tridge, and the infamous Dr. O--ts in Lying; and are as well known throughout the Town, amongst Men, Women, and Children, as the Church Catechism, or Practice of Piety, amongst the Religious." -------"Captain Bland," The New Atalantis; or The York Spy (1713), p. 52. "Bland"'s satirical little book seems to have been inspired by those of Edward Ward, "The London-Spy." The above selection well typifies its still entertaining contents. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:48:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:48:16 -0800 Subject: "at your own risk" Message-ID: Obviously I thought of that, Erik. If so, it's the most candid security product in the world. Good, too. JL Erik Hoover wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Erik Hoover Subject: Re: "at your own risk" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? My guess is that SpyBot is emphatically declining to take responsibility if something goes wrong. Erik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 17:50:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:50:04 -0600 Subject: limousine liberal WAS Grass roots Message-ID: The 1912 McClure's Magazine cite from the OED is in the APS ProQuest database. That same article includes an interest antecedent for "limousine liberal": MANUFACTURING PUBLIC OPINION BY GEORGE KIBBE TURNER McClure's Magazine (1893-1926); Jul 1912; VOL. XXXIX, No. 3; APS Online pg. 316 "The silk-hat and limousine vote, bound together in the Taft leagues, swung heavily for Taft; the factory vote went strongly for Roosevelt." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Quinion > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:48 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Grass roots > > > The OED has it from June 1912 in reference to the attempt by > Teddy Roosevelt to become president. I've found a number of > examples from that year, all in reference to his campaign, > which might suggest it was coined by somebody connected to > it. There's also one from 1920 on newpaperarchive.com that > links the sense to Roosevelt's principles. > "America in So Many Words" dates it to 1902, but that is in > the sense of the fundamentals of a situation. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 17:52:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:52:34 -0800 Subject: "at your own risk" Message-ID: Curses. Hoisted foully by my own petard. That's life in the swamp. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: "at your own risk" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's the software equivalent of the warning stickers on ladders that say "don't fall off, and don't sue us if you do." SpyBot mucks about in strange places in the system software, which can be treacherous because some viruses and trojans enmesh themselves so tightly with it. If SpyBot hoses your puter when it's supposed to be getting rid of baddies, then the developers of SpyBot absolve themselves of all responsibility for your data loss or loss of days. The developers are German, I believe, so puns and jokes seem a little less likely than if they were from the anglosphere. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org PS: In your case, Jon, it would be at *my* own risk. : 0 ) On Jan 26, 2005, at 10:31, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The title of the dialogue box in SpyBot says "SpyBot Seach and > Destroy - Use at your own risk!" > > Is this a pseudo-clever pun of some sort? Does it mean - or is it > supposed to suggest - "Use AGAINST your potential RISKS?" Or is it a > message from Windows warning me to use Bill Gates's products only? > > What's with this? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 26 17:59:43 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:59:43 -0500 Subject: Truly, truly awful In-Reply-To: <29d6fbaf05012608425064b53f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:42 AM -0500 1/26/05, Orion Montoya wrote: >I heard your wife's pronunciation once, in the mid-late nineties, on a >high-school girl from Phoenix. I assumed it was a mis-parsing of the >words in the compound, like the couple people I've met who pronounce >"albeit" with two syllables to rhyme with German "arbeit" (i.e. >/Al'baIt/). > On that last one, a compromise that I often hear is a nod to the well-known concessionaire "Al B. It", with focus on his middle initial-- /ael'biyIt/. Still trisyllabic, no German diphthong, but first syllable definitely "al", with no connection to "all". I haven't heard this spelling pronunciation with "altogether" or "already", so I assume it's partly a widespread loss of transparency in the case of "albeit". Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 18:10:53 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:10:53 -0600 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" or "considerable" > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, > extent, etc.)" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." > Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my > eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. > > "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It > piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough > to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes > from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts > (16 [2004]: 151). > > Is anyone familiar with this usage? > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 18:37:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:37:26 -0800 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a standard English context. Still recovering from the shame, JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" or "considerable" > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, > extent, etc.)" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." > Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my > eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. > > "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It > piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough > to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes > from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts > (16 [2004]: 151). > > Is anyone familiar with this usage? > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 21:21:20 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:21:20 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > John Baker says: >>>> > > I think the meaning of the two phrases is pretty close, though > not > identical. "God is in the details" is typically applied in artistic > contexts (particularly in architecture) and means that great art is > achieved > through attention to detail. "The devil is in the details" means that > close > attention to detail is required to find problems with a complex > proposal or > arrangement. I believe that the latter phrase achieved broad > popularization > in the 1980s in political contexts, particularly with respect to arms > control treaties and tax legislation, in both of which areas very close > attention indeed to the details is required to find the devil. > > <<< > > I hadn't heard the God version enough to have figured out a supposed > meaning > for it. I understood the devil version much as you did. I'd've defined > it > thus: There can be / are likely to be errors or gotchas down at fine > levels > of detail, where you won't notice them until it's too late unless you > examine and predict interactions and so on very carefully. > > I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in > the > woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not sought > out and > eliminated. Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. -Wilson Gray > > I like the hominess of the troublemaker hiding amidst the firewood out > back, > and I have tried to keep that image in use as "the goblin in the > woodpile". > It helps, I guess, that my family and many of my friends are sf/fantasy > fans. > > > mark by hand > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 26 21:38:43 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:38:43 -0600 Subject: Mentalist antedates Message-ID: Mentalist >From OED: (n) d. A magician who performs feats which apparently demonstrate extraordinary mental powers, such as telepathy, precognition, etc.; a mind-reader. 1925 _Sphinx_ July 159/2 (heading) Attention, Mentalists! Indianapolis Star | 1909-10-16 p 5 col 4. "MENTALIST FINDS LETTERS IN WILSON MURDER CASE" "Several letters and papers which seem to in involve John Wilson, charged with the murder of his wife on the third day of March, have been found in a trash pile on East Fifth street through the agency of a mentalist." Syracuse Herald Journal | 1909-06-06 p 40 col 6. [advertisement for the Grand theater] "Special Engagement of Pearl Tangley The Egyptian Mentalist. The most astounding exhibition of mental telepathy ever witnessed. She will tell you IF You ought to marry You will succeed Your sweetheart loves you." Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-11-21 page 2 col 4. "Mental Marvel at The Colonial" "Manager Abbott of The Colonial has secured Ethel Roberts, a girl mentalist, for a limited engagement, starting Monday night. Miss Roberts, who is a prot?g? of Anna Eva Fay, presents a remarkable exhibition of telepathy wherein she calls people by name, tells them of events that have transpired in their past and gives them advise in love affairs, business, etc." Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-08-13, p. 5 col 7 "Mental Photography A Wonderful Phase of Psychical Phenomena" "Professor J. Edgar Marion, telephotist, expert mentalist and master of silent forces, of Boston, Mass., who is now located at the Standen hotel,possesses the greatest mental power ever displayed in this city." Davis County [Utah] Clipper 1921-04-01 p. 5 col 3. "Bill for Orpheum Theatre Commencing Wed., March 30" "Harry Kahno, "The Incomparable Mentalist," performs wonderful feats featuring "the Evolution of the Human Brain." " Monessen [Pennsylvania] Daily Independent, 1911-12-20 p. 6 col 2. "Mind Reading Strange Silent Power" "Professor William Walter Lipsin, Philospher and Scientist, is now in this city on business pertaining to the Boston Telepathy Club, under the auspices of the Morgan-Russell Institutue, and has arranged to give a portion of his time to those wishing to learn certain things concerning their own affairs or the affairs of others in whom they are interested." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 21:44:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:44:28 -0500 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Slater's usage seems strange to me, too, Jon. And I've actually known people who said "right smart." If I'd come across this usage of "smart" in situ, I would have assumed that it was some sort of typo, perhaps for "small." But "small" doesn't clarify things much, either. -Wilson On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, > etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a > standard English context. > > Still recovering from the shame, > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" > or "considerable" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, >> extent, etc.)" >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." >> Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my >> eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. >> >> "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It >> piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough >> to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes >> from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts >> (16 [2004]: 151). >> >> Is anyone familiar with this usage? >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Jan 26 21:57:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:57:21 -0500 Subject: Mentalist antedates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:38 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Mentalist antedates > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Mentalist > > From OED: (n) d. A magician who performs feats which apparently > demonstrate extraordinary mental powers, such as telepathy, > precognition, etc.; a mind-reader. 1925 _Sphinx_ July 159/2 > (heading) Attention, Mentalists! > > Indianapolis Star | 1909-10-16 p 5 col 4. > "MENTALIST FINDS LETTERS IN WILSON MURDER CASE" > "Several letters and papers which seem to in involve John Wilson, > charged with the murder of his wife on the third day of March, have > been found in a trash pile on East Fifth street through the agency of > a mentalist." > > > Syracuse Herald Journal | 1909-06-06 p 40 col 6. > [advertisement for the Grand theater] > "Special Engagement of Pearl Tangley The Egyptian Mentalist. The most > astounding exhibition of mental telepathy ever witnessed. She will > tell you IF You ought to marry You will succeed Your sweetheart loves > you." > > Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-11-21 page 2 col 4. > "Mental Marvel at The Colonial" > "Manager Abbott of The Colonial has secured Ethel Roberts, a girl > mentalist, for a limited engagement, starting Monday night. Miss > Roberts, who is a prot?g? of Anna Eva Fay, presents a remarkable > exhibition of telepathy wherein she calls people by name, tells them > of events that have transpired in their past and gives them advise in > love affairs, business, etc." > > > Coshocton [Ohio] Morning Tribune, 1911-08-13, p. 5 col 7 > "Mental Photography A Wonderful Phase of Psychical Phenomena" > "Professor J. Edgar Marion, telephotist "telephotist" is not in the OED. Also just heard someone overcorrect "cushion" to "cushing." -Wilson Gray > > Davis County [Utah] Clipper 1921-04-01 p. 5 col 3. > "Bill for Orpheum Theatre Commencing Wed., March 30" > "Harry Kahno, "The Incomparable Mentalist," performs wonderful feats > featuring "the Evolution of the Human Brain." " > > Monessen [Pennsylvania] Daily Independent, 1911-12-20 p. 6 col 2. > "Mind Reading Strange Silent Power" > "Professor William Walter Lipsin, Philospher and Scientist, is now in > this city on business pertaining to the Boston Telepathy Club, under > the auspices of the Morgan-Russell Institutue, and has arranged to > give a portion of his time to those wishing to learn certain things > concerning their own affairs or the affairs of others in whom they are > interested." > From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Jan 26 22:21:29 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:21:29 -0000 Subject: Chillaxing Message-ID: Another subscriber asks about "chillaxing", which a Web search shows easily enough is a recent slang term (~2000?) created as a blend of "chill" and "relaxing". It turned up in a reader's review in the issue of Newsday for 8 December last year about "Destiny Fulfilled", the reunion album of Destiny's Child: "The album as a whole ... actually sounds like a parody of a hip-hop record, and is, in fact, too played out for servin', too wack for chillaxing, and much too bunk to twurk to." Could somebody give me a translation of the last bit? And what's the cultural context here - is it enough to say it's rap slang, or is there more that needs to be said? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jan 26 22:33:33 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:33:33 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: <78cfebf8024ca7859d39ee637c93c507@rcn.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray writes: >> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not sought >> out and eliminated. > >Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. ~~~~~~~~~ There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years ago (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that quite a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them were young enough that their experience of its use was probably literary or at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But here you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding general among blacks of your generation? A. Murie From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 26 23:31:39 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:31:39 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb In-Reply-To: <073701c503b4$9a3ad270$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: >Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being used >as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun >"consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to >realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among child-rearing >types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a while now? Robert Hartwell Fiske's "Dictionary of Disagreeable English" defines this verb and provides a brief critique: <> -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 23:38:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:38:54 -0800 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" Message-ID: Slater, USAFR, used to be an English professor and, back from Asia where he was a PAO, resumed his current job with National Public Radio in Ohio. So he's literate. Actually, his short memoir is gracefully written (and available on-line). Color photos, too. "Smart" shouldn't be a misprint. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Slater's usage seems strange to me, too, Jon. And I've actually known people who said "right smart." If I'd come across this usage of "smart" in situ, I would have assumed that it was some sort of typo, perhaps for "small." But "small" doesn't clarify things much, either. -Wilson On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, > etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a > standard English context. > > Still recovering from the shame, > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" > or "considerable" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, >> extent, etc.)" >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." >> Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my >> eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. >> >> "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It >> piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough >> to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes >> from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts >> (16 [2004]: 151). >> >> Is anyone familiar with this usage? >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 26 23:48:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:48:58 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: These odd terms seem to be made up. JL (with no credibility) "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's For Better or for Worse comic strip uses a number of slang terms that are unfamiliar to me. I don't know if that's because the strip is set in Ontario, or if it's because I'm an old fogey, but I suspect the latter. Two teenagers are discussing a friend: April: Becky thinks she's so hot because she's going out with a guy in grade 12. Duncan: Yeah, she's hangin' high! April: She's only just turned 14. What would a guy who's 17 see in her?! Duncan: You're kidding me, right? Duncan: April, Becky is "hands on" . . . She's a "gig"! She's "roadside," man! April: You mean . . . she's "been there"? Duncan: Yeah . . . an' once you've "been there," you ain't comin' back! The strip is at http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/000938.php. John Baker --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 27 00:13:56 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:13:56 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. Notwithstanding which, I note that one of the definitions for "gig" at UrbanDictionary.com is a "scandolous female...a slut" [sic]. The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, or at least would be out of context. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 6:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse These odd terms seem to be made up. JL (with no credibility) "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's For Better or for Worse comic strip uses a number of slang terms that are unfamiliar to me. I don't know if that's because the strip is set in Ontario, or if it's because I'm an old fogey, but I suspect the latter. Two teenagers are discussing a friend: April: Becky thinks she's so hot because she's going out with a guy in grade 12. Duncan: Yeah, she's hangin' high! April: She's only just turned 14. What would a guy who's 17 see in her?! Duncan: You're kidding me, right? Duncan: April, Becky is "hands on" . . . She's a "gig"! She's "roadside," man! April: You mean . . . she's "been there"? Duncan: Yeah . . . an' once you've "been there," you ain't comin' back! The strip is at http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/000938.php. John Baker --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU Thu Jan 27 00:41:12 2005 From: salovex at WPO.CSO.NIU.EDU (MICHAEL SALOVESH) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:41:12 -0600 Subject: Grass roots Message-ID: >>> Michael Quinion 01/26/05 8:47 AM >>> A subscriber has asked about the origins of this expression in the sense of the rank and file of an political body. Back in March, David Barnhart asked whether anybody knew of it from the 1880s but I can't find a reply in the archives. Just slightly off-topic: In the Quadrangle, open space at the center of The University of Chicago (see note, below), generations of students, faculty, and visitors taking shortcuts across campus had worn deep ruts in the lawns that were supposed to grace the area between buildings. Desperate defenses from the Building and Grounds staff used chains, signs, and public pleas to keep off the grass. It simply didn't work. Some marketing genius from the School of Business prevailed on the powers-that-were in the 1970's to initiate a grass roots campaign. Take that phrase literally: There were stories in campus publications, more than one general rally, wise words from the president's office, and other ways to plug The Grass Roots Campaign. The neatest ploy was a general giveaway of green buttons bearing the words "Grass Roots !" Once there had been sufficient noise, the entire area was spaded and reseeded -- and "Grass Roots !" signs were prominently spotted around campus. Public disapproval ended the reign of the shortcut abusers. Grass Roots worked! (At least it worked that one spring.) The campus lawns took on a beautifully verdant look everywhere. It didn't hurt, either, when some genius responded to the vox populi by paving some of the most notorious ruts in the lawn. If people insist on following their own view of where campus paths ought to go, it makes more sense to join them than to fight them. Promised note: Notice that I capitalized The University's name as The University of Chicago. That was once the only accepted form: The University, as if there were no other. (I understand that latter- day campus stylebooks have dropped that initial T to mere lowercase status. O tempora, o mores.) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! P.S.: There was one flaw in the Grass Roots movement. Somehow, the seed bags were contaminated by an occasional kernel of good midwestern maize seed. (That might even have been a nod to a former Chancellor of the University -- later demoted to the mere title of President. He was an internationally famous plant geneticist, most renowned for his work on the origins and domestication of maize.) As far as I was concerned, the cornstalks were a pleasant diversion. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 01:40:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:40:19 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray writes: > >>> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >>> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not >>> sought >>> out and eliminated. >> >> Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >> person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >> suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. > ~~~~~~~~~ > There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years > ago > (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that > quite > a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them > were young enough that their experience of its use was probably > literary or > at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But > here > you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding > general among blacks of your generation? > A. Murie > Yes, it is. That it might have some other meaning is a possibility that has caught me completely by surprise. I've consulted my brother and a few old - no pun intended - friends and they agree with me. We know only the "passing-for-white" meaning and the 'hidden-problem" meaning is one that none of us has come across before. -Wilson Gray From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jan 27 01:48:20 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:48:20 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B3C@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: > The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to > me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably > means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" > sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, > or at least would be out of context. In this context, I read "roadside" to be a reference to a streetwalker. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 01:46:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:46:23 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6bp2ik@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 6:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Consequence, as a verb > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being >> used >> as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun >> "consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to >> realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among >> child-rearing >> types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a >> while now? > > Robert Hartwell Fiske's "Dictionary of Disagreeable English" defines > this > verb and provides a brief critique: > > < _punish_. .... / Not yet in many dictionaries, the politically correct, > though completely inane and pathetic, to _consequence_ is increasingly > used > by psychologists and human resource personnel, themselves often inane > and > pathetic. ....>> > > -- Doug Wilson > "Human resource personnel"?! Shouldn't that be "human-resource human resources"?;-) -Wilson Gray From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jan 27 01:47:47 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:47:47 -0600 Subject: Vulgarity in a cell-phone product-name Message-ID: This is to the American Dialect Society and American Name Society. ---- I was startled today to see a serious article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch contain the vulgar Russian term for excrement, evidently without the knowledge of the journalist. --- Article title: "A Pair of New Viruses Can Disable Cell Phones." Subtitle: "Gavno 'Trojan horses" enter "smart" models disguised as repair files." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, January 25, 2005, Section C (Business), p. 1, cols. 1-4, p. 6, cols. 1-2. Here's the beginning of the article: "Cell phone viruses just became more lethal. Now, two can disable your phone entirely. "The antivirus firm SimWorks said Gavno.a is the first 'Trojan horse' targeting 'smart' phones that actually interferes with the phone's ability to make calls. Trojan horses are malicious programs disguised to entice people to download them. [...] Okay, now for a language lesson. The Russian vulgar term for excrement is spelled "govno" and is stressed on the final vowel. Also, in standard Russian the vowel "o" right before a stress is pronounced "a" (the official term for this feature is "akanie"). So "govno" (please forgive me for repeating this word) is pronounced "gavno" (with final stress). And along comes a malicious product whose very name contains the word for "excrement," a clear indication to anyone who knows Russian (which, of course, excludes most people in the U.S.) that the product cannot possibly be beneficial. If anyone in the American Name Society is collecting examples of unusual product names, Gavno.a may be added to the list. Btw, The St. Louis Post-Dispatch article contains the following highlighted quote from the chief executive of SimWorks: "Once a user installs Gavno, they may find it difficult, if not impossible, to repair the phone." Considering the literal meaning of "Gavno," the creators of this product name must be having as good a chuckle as their twisted little minds will allow. Gerald Cohen Professor of German and Russian Department of Arts, Languages, and Philosophy, University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 email: gcohen at umr.edu From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Thu Jan 27 01:49:22 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:49:22 -0500 Subject: God in the deatils (1960) In-Reply-To: <20050126211408.DCAF423C3EC@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a > person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was > suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. > > -Wilson Gray That's what it meant when my Grandmother said it to my Grandfather, FWIW. Erik From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 01:55:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:55:15 -0500 Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was thinking more along the lines of an error by the editor or by the typesetter, not one by the author himself, part-time zoomie though he be. -Wilson On Jan 26, 2005, at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, > etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Slater, USAFR, used to be an English professor and, back from Asia > where he was a PAO, resumed his current job with National Public Radio > in Ohio. > > So he's literate. Actually, his short memoir is gracefully written > (and available on-line). Color photos, too. "Smart" shouldn't be a > misprint. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Slater's usage seems strange to me, too, Jon. And I've actually known > people who said "right smart." If I'd come across this usage of "smart" > in situ, I would have assumed that it was some sort of typo, perhaps > for "small." But "small" doesn't clarify things much, either. > > -Wilson > > On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, >> etc.)" >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> OED thinks so too, Bill. But Slater's usage seems odd tp me, esp. in a >> standard English context. >> >> Still recovering from the shame, >> >> JL >> >> "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >> Subject: Re: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, >> etc.)" >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> It seems related to "right smart", which I've seen used to mean "very" >> or "considerable" >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: American Dialect Society >>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:29 AM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, extent, etc.)" >>> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: "smart" = "considerable (in number, amount, >>> extent, etc.)" >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----------------- >>> >>> OED has this from 1778-1882, marked "Chiefly dial. and U.S." >>> Here is an ex. from more than a century later. It caught my >>> eye because at first I thought it was only a bad metaphor. >>> >>> "I get used to the dust...fine dust like talcum powder....It >>> piles up wherever it finds a niche...The dust is smart enough >>> to ground an aircraft." --Major Richard C. Slater, "Notes >>> from a Journal: Afghanistan...," War, Literature, & the Arts >>> (16 [2004]: 151). >>> >>> Is anyone familiar with this usage? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Jan 27 01:56:50 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:56:50 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: <> This is lifted from the website http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their assertions about rolling papers in the 1500's. Thx. Sam Clements PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:02:28 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:02:28 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? In-Reply-To: <000801c50413$77fb6120$df631941@sam> Message-ID: I can remember rolling papers only as early as 1959. When I moved to Fayetteville, AR, to attend grad school, I - a smoker then - lucked into a great deal. Living in the house where I rented an apt. were a couple from NC - they had brought their own tobacco supply with them, and they shared it with me. I learned to roll cigarettes - I even bought a little machine. Given my takehome pay, it was WONDERFFUL! Bethany On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Sam Clements wrote: .... >While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their assertions about rolling papers in the 1500's. From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Jan 27 02:13:20 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:13:20 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of "good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's something my characters would say. Thanks! Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From Karaeverman at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 02:29:01 2005 From: Karaeverman at AOL.COM (Kara Everman) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:29:01 EST Subject: hello Message-ID: please take me the fuck off of this stupid web list From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 02:31:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:31:39 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > < = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:32:49 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:32:49 -0500 Subject: Chillaxing Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:21:29 -0000, Michael Quinion wrote: >Another subscriber asks about "chillaxing", which a Web search shows >easily enough is a recent slang term (~2000?) created as a blend of >"chill" and "relaxing". DTWW has Usenet cites from 1994 for "chillax" and 1998 for "chillaxin": http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chillax/ >It turned up in a reader's review in the issue of Newsday >for 8 December last year about "Destiny Fulfilled", the reunion album >of Destiny's Child: "The album as a whole ... actually sounds like a >parody of a hip-hop record, and is, in fact, too played out for >servin', too wack for chillaxing, and much too bunk to twurk to." > >Could somebody give me a translation of the last bit? And what's the >cultural context here - is it enough to say it's rap slang, or is >there more that needs to be said? Sounds like ironic hyper-hiphoppery, perhaps assisted by the online Rap Dictionary... http://www.rapdict.org/Bunk bunk 1. Unpleasant, bad. 2. A load of bunk: a lot of nonsense. http://www.rapdict.org/Twurk Twurk 1. Twurk is a type of dance. "Shorty you can twurk in your skirt, if you want to" -- Ying Yang Twins (Whistle While You Twurk) [1] (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/yingyang/walking/whistle.yng.txt), "How many dollars its gone take, to see you bounce that ass girl make that ass twurk" -- Beelow f/ Ms. Peaches (How Many Dollars) [2] (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/beelow/holic/how_many.bee.txt) 2. To have sexual intercourse. --Ben Zimmer From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 02:38:33 2005 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:38:33 EST Subject: indenting paragraphs Message-ID: Not a dialect question, but maybe of interest: what's going on with indentation of the first line of paragraphs? I've been noticing that more of my students are not indenting. Did someone change the rules since Miss Farley taught me in fourth grade? I've got a series of books here from the Open University --none indent paragraphs--they put spaces between them instead. I've got a St. Martin's Handbook on academic and professional writing--2003 and it not only does it not even mention indenting paragraphs, its own style is to not indent the first paragraph in each section, and then to indent all subsequent paragraphs. AND--now that I look at American Speech, it's doing the same thing: indents all but the first paragraph in each section. Some of my students coming from community college are telling me they were taught not to indent. How long has this been going on? Dale Coye Wilton, NH From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:53:20 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:53:20 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter: > >These odd terms seem to be made up. John Baker: > >The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW Team": >Hi there, > >Thanks for writing! > >Yes - Lynn did make up the ?jive talk? >that the kids in the strip are using. > >Have a great day, > >Allison >Allison Zadorozny >FBorFW Team >www.fborfw.com This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times fell for: . Perhaps Lynn Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into circulation. --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 02:57:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:57:48 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <19980.69.142.143.59.1106794400.squirrel@69.142.143.59> Message-ID: At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Jonathan Lighter: >> >>These odd terms seem to be made up. > >John Baker: >> >>The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >>According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. > >Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW >Team": > >>Hi there, >> >>Thanks for writing! > > >>Yes - Lynn did make up the ?jive talk? >>that the kids in the strip are using. >> >>Have a great day, >> >>Allison >>Allison Zadorozny >>FBorFW Team > >www.fborfw.com > >This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >circulation. Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the "Mean Girls" version of Evanston... Larry From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Thu Jan 27 02:58:51 2005 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:58:51 -0600 Subject: indenting Message-ID: I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 03:27:22 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:27:22 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:13:20 -0600, Patti J. Kurtz wrote: >Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of >"good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's >something my characters would say. Newspaperarchive dates it back to 1879: Marion Daily Star (Ohio), March 25, 1879, p. 3/2 "Call again -- very busy -- see you later -- got to go right over the river!" said the restaurant man as he got away out of sight. Looks fairly common in the 1880s-90s. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 03:53:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:53:03 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:57:48 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >>This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >>fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >>Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >>circulation. > >Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the >"Mean Girls" version of Evanston... And then there's "grotty" from _A Hard Day's Night_... ----- http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html This word actually came into public use from the film... The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty (The Beatles, Making). ----- Ah-- I see this was discussed on the list back in 2002: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0207a&L=ads-l&D=0#60 --Ben Zimmer From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 27 04:19:07 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:19:07 -0500 Subject: God in the details (1960) In-Reply-To: <31d0cd00adbbb49f3c34c77d339f9853@rcn.com> Message-ID: >On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, sagehen wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sagehen >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Wilson Gray writes: >> >>>> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >>>> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not >>>> sought >>>> out and eliminated. >>> >>> Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >>> person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >>> suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years >> ago >> (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that >> quite >> a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them >> were young enough that their experience of its use was probably >> literary or >> at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But >> here >> you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding >> general among blacks of your generation? >> A. Murie >> > >Yes, it is. That it might have some other meaning is a possibility that >has caught me completely by surprise. I've consulted my brother and a >few old - no pun intended - friends and they agree with me. We know >only the "passing-for-white" meaning and the 'hidden-problem" meaning >is one that none of us has come across before. > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ I found an old posting to ads-l from Doug Wilson, summer 2000: >RHHDAS shows the sense of (1) "hidden nefarious thing" from 1843, the >>sense of (2) "black ancestor" from 1953. >It is my belief that the use of the expression in the first sense was >virtually obsolete in many circles by the time of the origin of the second >sense. Thus (I think) many people around 1950 still recognized the >expression but no longer remembered what it meant, and therefore applied it >to something different. ~~~~~~~~~~ One is bound to wonder whether the source of the RHHDAS entry was ignorant of or inattentive to the interpretation given this by blacks before 1953. AM From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Jan 27 04:19:59 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:19:59 -0500 Subject: Copasetic Message-ID: With the originator's permission, I cross-post this message from the Publore listserv (Public Sector Folklore, not the 'lore of pubs'). They are currently discussing 'copasetic.' >Credit where credit is due: the word was coined by the great jazz tap >artist Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949). As his entry in American >National Biography Online notes >(http://www.anb.org/articles/18/18-00990.html), it was in his >hometown of Richmond, Va., that "he invented the famous phrase >'everything's copasetic,' meaning everything's tip-top or first-rate." > >--Jurretta Heckscher ~~~~~~ >Dr. Jurretta Jordan >Heckscher >Research Specialist >Digital Reference Team >The Library of Congress >Washington, D.C. 20540-4604 Michael McKernan From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 04:33:54 2005 From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:33:54 -0800 Subject: indenting paragraphs Message-ID: I'd like to know the current status of "indenting paragraphs," too. Perhaps the dropping of indentions comes from web writing? Those learning to write for the web (especially in web journalism classes) are taught to write shorter paragraphs and put spaces between them because it is easier to read online that way. If I'm not mistaken, indenting paragraphs on a web site used to be more difficult than it is now because of technology. Have the "official" style guides changed their rules on this? If they have, I'd love to know, too. I'd also like to know if anyone is aware of the history of paragraph indention. When did it begin? Why? When did it become the standard way of writing? Jason Norris Dale Coye wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Dale Coye Subject: indenting paragraphs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not a dialect question, but maybe of interest: what's going on with indentation of the first line of paragraphs? I've been noticing that more of my students are not indenting. Did someone change the rules since Miss Farley taught me in fourth grade? I've got a series of books here from the Open University --none indent paragraphs--they put spaces between them instead. I've got a St. Martin's Handbook on academic and professional writing--2003 and it not only does it not even mention indenting paragraphs, its own style is to not indent the first paragraph in each section, and then to indent all subsequent paragraphs. AND--now that I look at American Speech, it's doing the same thing: indents all but the first paragraph in each section. Some of my students coming from community college are telling me they were taught not to indent. How long has this been going on? Dale Coye Wilton, NH If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it? -- Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 06:38:59 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:38:59 EST Subject: "What have you done for me lately?" (1944); Movie (1915); "Beat 'em in alley" Message-ID: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY? ... It's earlier here in the Barkley story in 1944, but I think the 1946 joke by Lou Holtz (told for years?) is the source of this. Don't know what Fred has lately. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_ _Barkley's Favorite Story Is Being Used Against Him_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=217835252&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT =309&VName=HNP&TS=1106805327&clientId=65882) By DREW PEARSON. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 5, 1944. p. B5 (1 page) ... "Then why is it," asked Barkley, "that you're going to vote against me now?" .. The veteran pondered a minute, then replied: "But what have you done for me lately?" ... _WHAT MAKES YOU LAUGH?_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=415595711&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106805327& clientId=65882) Maurice Zolotow. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 8, 1946. p. E4 (3 pages) First page: "HINKEL," he cries, "why did you keep stalling me off like this> Why did you make me wait outside four fays? Aren't we old friends? Didn't I save your life at Chateau-Thierry in 1918? Didn't I? ... "Sure," remarks Hinkel casually. ... "And after the war, didn't I give you your first job? And when you wanted to go into business for yourself, who loaned you the money? Who introduced you to the girl who is now your wife? And during the depression when you were nearly in bakruptcy, who came to your rescue and staked you? I did, didn't I?" ... Hinkel listens thoughtfully, and then he inquires, "Yes, Schartz--but what have you done for me _lately_?" ... Holtz sighed as he finished the story. He sucked on his cigar. "It's a funny story, isn't it?" he said. "I've told it in every theater I played in the last couple of years. Nobody laughs. Nobody laughs at it in New York. Nobody laughs at it in California. It's the funniest story I ever heard but nobofy laughs at it. Maybe the audience is waiting to find out what Schwartz _did_ do for Hinkel lately?" ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "IF YOU CAN BEAT 'EM IN THE ALLEY" ... Fortunately, Conn Smythe wrote an autobiography, with Scott Young. It was titled with the catchphrase: IF YOU CAN BEAT 'EM IN THE ALLEY (Toronto: McClelland and Stewart, 1981). ... Does the New York Public Library have it? Of course not! I'm not going to inter-library loan it--that will take five years. Fred Shapiro or Gerald Cohen can do that, or it will have to wait for my next Library of Congress trip. ... (PAGES OF THE PAST) 1 March 1958, Toronto Star, pg. 29: He might even have been raised in this tradition that i you can't lick 'em in the alley you're a dead pigeon on ice, and Solly looks tough enough to take care of himself. ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "MOVIE" IN PHOTOPLAY ... No source is cited for the word in this long article of editors' opinions. ... ... April 1915, PHOTOPLAY, pg. 129: _The Question Is Now Settled_ ... _THE WORD IS ELECTED BY_ _THE NATION'S EDITORS, TO_ _A PLACE IN THE DICTIONARY_ ... _MOVIE_ ... YES: 511. NO: 222. MOVIE WINS!! ... Five weeks ago PHOTOPLAY MAGAZINE sent a question to one thousand editors throughout the United States. Answers were received from 733 of these. ... Here was the query: "Do you consider the word 'movie,' as applied to a moving picture theatre of film, a good word, and do you approve of its use in your newspaper?" ... Care was taken to reach every sort of community that patronizes pictures in America. PHOTOPLAY MAGAZINE's ballot scattered down through Arizona, New Mexico and the orange-lands of California; up the North Coast into the land of the apple and wheat; through the cotton states; over the great Middle West; into the sanctums of Eastern intellectuals; up into Maine and New Hampshire; into Pennsylvania's coal and iron; over the rolling hills of Virginia and the chivalrous South. ... There was rousing enthusiasm for "movie;" rumblings, denunciations, thunders and growls against it. ... The consensus of opinion, as given above, makes for its use. ... The majority vote in its favor is not sectional; if it were it might well be doubted. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 08:20:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 03:20:52 EST Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) Message-ID: >From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, pg. 669: ... 11. [Death is] nature's way of telling you to slow down. life insurance proverb, in Newsweek 25 April 1960. ... 12 The Devil is in the details. late 20th century saying ... ... ... Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _Display Ad 25 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=330602592&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106812 688&clientId=65882) The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). May 1, 1917. p. I6 (1 page) ... _distress after eating_ Nature's way of telling you that your digestion is out of order. (...) Dr. Williams Pink Pills for Pale People ... ... _Display Ad 31 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=480962502&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813 028&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 13, 1930. p. 33 (1 page) ... When you feel any of the every-day occurences of sour stomach, sick headache, heartburn, biliousness, it is nature's way of telling you there's something wrong. (...) MILNESIA WAFERS ... ... _Graffiti To Print_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=82582599&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813236&clien tId=65882) By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) First page: ,,,e.g., DEATH IS NATURE'S WAY OF TELLING YOU TO SLOW DOWN. Second page: "Jesus Saves" bulletins rarely escape defacement. The two most common subscripts: PLAID STAMPS and BUT MOSES INVESTS. ... ... JESUS SAVES + MOSES INVESTS--2,400 Google hits, 1,210 Google Groups hits ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Playground Daily News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2kQ7QBcVsKGhXZvXpAhGlDHKP8ZE3bvS0UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, October 13, 1966 _Fort Walton Beach,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:fort_walton_beach+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Florida_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:florida+jesus+saves+a nd+moses+invests) ...on flat at 20th CenturyFox: ''JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS Lee Marvin turned.....tones. Instead it added to the mvsterv AND international intrigue, AND ;ami IOH.. ... _Port Arthur News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2q96Cko3h3jZSP2dDFM8I/P6Axh5ozcn+UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November 03, 1966 _Port Arthur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:port_arthur+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Texas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:texas+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) ...on a fiat at 20th CenturyFox: "JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS" Lee Marvin turned.....where a burglar had broken awindow AND attempted to steal from a vending.. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jan 27 13:18:49 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:18:49 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 03:20:52AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? You're probably thinking of Spirit, from their great 1970 album _The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus._ Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:17:35 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:17:35 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: OED incredibly offers no exx. of "See you later!" in either a literal or formulaic sense, but has formulaic "See you soon!" from 1891 and "See you again!" from 1906. In 1950s N.Y.C., these were common, as were the even more informal "See ya!" and "See ya 'round!" In my own mind, at least, "See ya later!" always seemed to be literal, referring to a particular time that day. That it was also used as a mere formula didn't occur to me until I left N.Y.C. in the mid-'70s. I actually remember being slightly taken aback by it. When I said it to my mother over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? You're in Tennessee." The point of all this is that you could place "See ya later!" any time after 1890 without derailing history, though the reality might bemore complicated and somebody could still carp at you. Meanwhile, we should all send Jesse some sorely needed cites. JL "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" Subject: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of "good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's something my characters would say. Thanks! Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jan 27 14:24:24 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:24:24 +0000 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >When I said it to my mother over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? You're in Tennessee." > > > So does that give us a 2005 cite for 'Ameche', Jon? JG From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Jan 27 14:25:48 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:25:48 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: From: Dave Wilton :somebody else wrote: :: The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to :: me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably :: means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" :: sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, :: or at least would be out of context. : In this context, I read "roadside" to be a reference to a : streetwalker. As for me, i read it as a reference to sex in a parked car. (And "hands on" didn't seem short of intercourse to me--but that may have been from the later "been there".) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:27:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:27:49 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. JL Jonathon Green wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathon Green Subject: Re: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >When I said it to my mother over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? You're in Tennessee." > > > So does that give us a 2005 cite for 'Ameche', Jon? JG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jan 27 14:39:06 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:39:06 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050127142749.72855.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:27:49AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. > > P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. Here's a completely unexplained and natural use from British socialite and convicted cokehead Taki Theodoracopulos, in a British publication no less: 1997 'Taki' in _Spectator_ 23 Aug. 46 All I did was lift the Ameche. The next thing was instant immortality. And here's one from Nick Tosches, again unexplained: 2002 N. Tosches _In Hand of Dante_ 44, I got no complaints, really. Except maybe that quick draw on the Ameche that you're developin' there. I have other uses from the 2000s, but they're all self-referential. Still, I think we can all get away with using it. We're professionals; no one would dare question us. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:41:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:41:24 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: All these conjectures attest to the ingenuity of our correspondents, but then look what I did with "Use at your own risk." If the terms are real, all (except I suppose for the suggested nuance of "been there") are so recent and/or local that it would make hbetter sense to watch out for earlier attestations. "Gig," by the way, has become so vague and general in recentryears (= "thing") that the lone entry in UrbanDictionary may even be coincidental. BTW, for twenty-two years a friend of mine has applied "user-friendly" to amatively cooperative Vagino-Americans. Is he alone in this? BTW, "Vagino-American" came from "The National Lampoon" ca1977 and I've been waiting since then for a chance to use it. Apologies to all. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Wilton :somebody else wrote: :: The wording seems a little odd. "Hands on" suggests, to :: me, something short of intercourse, while "been there" presumably :: means that the 14-year-old has lost her virginity and "gig" :: sounds like she's sexually active. "Roadside" is, to me, opaque, :: or at least would be out of context. : In this context, I read "roadside" to be a reference to a : streetwalker. As for me, i read it as a reference to sex in a parked car. (And "hands on" didn't seem short of intercourse to me--but that may have been from the later "been there".) David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Thu Jan 27 14:44:02 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:44:02 +0000 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "See You Later" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. > >P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. > > > I ought to throw this in, then: 2004 Tim Dorsey _Cadillac Beach_ 189: 'How?d you hear?? ?Jawed with him on the Ameche.? That said, it occurs in a page of conscious archaisms - Dorsey has a deranged modern cop pretending to be his 40s equivalent - nonetheless... JG From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 14:44:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:44:01 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we *can* imagine." --Some Guy. Before Now. Fred? JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:27:49AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. > > P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this term, let us know. Here's a completely unexplained and natural use from British socialite and convicted cokehead Taki Theodoracopulos, in a British publication no less: 1997 'Taki' in _Spectator_ 23 Aug. 46 All I did was lift the Ameche. The next thing was instant immortality. And here's one from Nick Tosches, again unexplained: 2002 N. Tosches _In Hand of Dante_ 44, I got no complaints, really. Except maybe that quick draw on the Ameche that you're developin' there. I have other uses from the 2000s, but they're all self-referential. Still, I think we can all get away with using it. We're professionals; no one would dare question us. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Jan 27 15:01:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:01:28 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6chkfh@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: I remember hearing "Pain is nature's way of telling you to slow down" a zillion times a day on the radio, back in the '40's. It was the slogan for some patent medicine or other of the day, Dr. Bengu?'s Ointment, I think it was, but I can't recall for certain. This ointment is, of course, the same patent medicine still being sold to this day as "Ben-Gay." According to a book of graffiti that I once read - I can't recall whether it was in the late '50's or the early '60's - the "death" version began life as a graffito parodying the "pain" slogan. This same book claimed that "Moses invests" was a grafitto written in response to a "Jesus saves" graffito. The book also contained the following: 1) My mother made me a homosexual 2) If I get her the material, will she make me one, too? -Wilson Gray "Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but > Moses > invests" (1966) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, pg. 669: > ... > 11. [Death is] nature's way of telling you to slow down. > life insurance proverb, in Newsweek 25 April 1960. > ... > 12 The Devil is in the details. > late 20th century saying > ... > ... > ... > Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _Display Ad 25 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=330602592&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106812 > 688&clientId=65882) > The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). May 1, 1917. p. I6 (1 page) > ... > _distress after eating_ > Nature's way of telling you that your digestion is out of order. > (...) > Dr. Williams Pink Pills for Pale People > ... > ... > _Display Ad 31 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=480962502&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813 > 028&clientId=65882) > Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 13, 1930. p. 33 > (1 > page) > ... > When you feel any of the every-day occurences of sour stomach, sick > headache, heartburn, biliousness, it is nature's way of telling you > there's something > wrong. > (...) > MILNESIA WAFERS > ... > ... > _Graffiti To Print_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=82582599&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1106813236&clien > tId=65882) > By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Feb > 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) > First page: > ,,,e.g., DEATH IS NATURE'S WAY OF TELLING YOU TO SLOW DOWN. > Second page: > "Jesus Saves" bulletins rarely escape defacement. The two most common > subscripts: PLAID STAMPS and BUT MOSES INVESTS. > ... > ... > JESUS SAVES + MOSES INVESTS--2,400 Google hits, 1,210 Google Groups > hits > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Playground Daily News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/ > 6NLMW2kQ7QBcVsKGhXZvXpAhGlDHKP8ZE3bvS0UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > October 13, 1966 _Fort Walton Beach,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > fort_walton_beach+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Florida_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > florida+jesus+saves+a > nd+moses+invests) > ...on flat at 20th CenturyFox: ''JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS Lee Marvin > turned.....tones. Instead it added to the mvsterv AND international > intrigue, AND > ;ami IOH.. > > ... > _Port Arthur News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/ > 6NLMW2q96Cko3h3jZSP2dDFM8I/P6Axh5ozcn+UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November > 03, 1966 _Port Arthur,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > port_arthur+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Texas_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > texas+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) > ...on a fiat at 20th CenturyFox: "JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS" Lee > Marvin > turned.....where a burglar had broken awindow AND attempted to steal > from a > vending.. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 15:03:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:03:53 -0800 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: I actually researched this once, so naturally I can't remember anything I found out except that cigarettes in one form another predate the Crimean War. Hey, the OED has "French ladies" smokin' like chimneys in 1842! So my credibility is thoroughly back! Before then, I seem to recall, "cigarettes" might be referred to in literature as "(little) cigars" or something similar. Most of my early knowledge came from comic books, Wilson, so I share what must be your profound disillusionment. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > <> = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 15:06:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:06:25 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050127144401.72672.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than > we *can* imagine." > --Some > Guy. Before Now. Fred? Now, my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J. B. S. Haldane, Possible Worlds and Other Essays (1927) Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 27 15:15:30 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:15:30 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: According to Wikipedia, cigarettes were largely unknown in the English-speaking world prior to the Crimean War. However, Tobacco.org was this account of the invention of the modern cigarette: <<1832: TURKEY: Invention of the paper-rolled cigarette? While Southwest Indians, Aztecs and Mayans had used hollow reeds, cane or maize to fashion cylindrical tobacco-holders, and Sevillians had rolled cigar-scraps in thrown-away paper (papeletes), an Egyptian artilleryman [in the Turk/Egyptian war] is credited with the invention of the cigarette as we know it. In the siege of Acre, the Egyptian's cannon crew had improved their rate of fire by rolling the gunpowder in paper tubes. For this, he and his crew were rewarded with a pound of tobacco. Their sole pipe was broken, however, so they took to rolling the pipe tobacco in the paper. The invention spread among both Egyptian and Turkish soldiers. And thus . . . (Good-Bye to All That, 1970)>> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:04 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? I actually researched this once, so naturally I can't remember anything I found out except that cigarettes in one form another predate the Crimean War. Hey, the OED has "French ladies" smokin' like chimneys in 1842! So my credibility is thoroughly back! Before then, I seem to recall, "cigarettes" might be referred to in literature as "(little) cigars" or something similar. Most of my early knowledge came from comic books, Wilson, so I share what must be your profound disillusionment. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > <> = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 15:27:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:27:48 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) Message-ID: Those graffiti books were almost certainly from ca1970. I saw "Death is nature's way..." around 1976 and the "mother made me..." a year or so earlier. A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At You, Earthman." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but Moses invests" (1966) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember hearing "Pain is nature's way of telling you to slow down" a zillion times a day on the radio, back in the '40's. It was the slogan for some patent medicine or other of the day, Dr. Bengu?'s Ointment, I think it was, but I can't recall for certain. This ointment is, of course, the same patent medicine still being sold to this day as "Ben-Gay." According to a book of graffiti that I once read - I can't recall whether it was in the late '50's or the early '60's - the "death" version began life as a graffito parodying the "pain" slogan. This same book claimed that "Moses invests" was a grafitto written in response to a "Jesus saves" graffito. The book also contained the following: 1) My mother made me a homosexual 2) If I get her the material, will she make me one, too? -Wilson Gray "Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917); "Jesus saves, but > Moses > invests" (1966) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > From the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, pg. 669: > ... > 11. [Death is] nature's way of telling you to slow down. > life insurance proverb, in Newsweek 25 April 1960. > ... > 12 The Devil is in the details. > late 20th century saying > ... > ... > ... > Who sang a song with this "nature's way of telling you" lyric? > ... > ... > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > ... > _Display Ad 25 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=330602592&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106812 > 688&clientId=65882) > The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). May 1, 1917. p. I6 (1 page) > ... > _distress after eating_ > Nature's way of telling you that your digestion is out of order. > (...) > Dr. Williams Pink Pills for Pale People > ... > ... > _Display Ad 31 -- No Title_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=480962502&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= > 309&VName=HNP&TS=1106813 > 028&clientId=65882) > Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 13, 1930. p. 33 > (1 > page) > ... > When you feel any of the every-day occurences of sour stomach, sick > headache, heartburn, biliousness, it is nature's way of telling you > there's something > wrong. > (...) > MILNESIA WAFERS > ... > ... > _Graffiti To Print_ > (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb? > index=0&did=82582599&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 > 09&VName=HNP&TS=1106813236&clien > tId=65882) > By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Feb > 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) > First page: > ,,,e.g., DEATH IS NATURE'S WAY OF TELLING YOU TO SLOW DOWN. > Second page: > "Jesus Saves" bulletins rarely escape defacement. The two most common > subscripts: PLAID STAMPS and BUT MOSES INVESTS. > ... > ... > JESUS SAVES + MOSES INVESTS--2,400 Google hits, 1,210 Google Groups > hits > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Playground Daily News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/ > 6NLMW2kQ7QBcVsKGhXZvXpAhGlDHKP8ZE3bvS0UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, > October 13, 1966 _Fort Walton Beach,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > fort_walton_beach+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Florida_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > florida+jesus+saves+a > nd+moses+invests) > ...on flat at 20th CenturyFox: ''JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS Lee Marvin > turned.....tones. Instead it added to the mvsterv AND international > intrigue, AND > ;ami IOH.. > > ... > _Port Arthur News _ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/ > 6NLMW2q96Cko3h3jZSP2dDFM8I/P6Axh5ozcn+UIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, November > 03, 1966 _Port Arthur,_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city: > port_arthur+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) _Texas_ > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state: > texas+jesus+saves+and+moses+invests) > ...on a fiat at 20th CenturyFox: "JESUS SAVES. MOSES INVESTS" Lee > Marvin > turned.....where a burglar had broken awindow AND attempted to steal > from a > vending.. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 15:31:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:31:15 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <41F8FE32.5080601@abecedary.net> Message-ID: At 2:44 PM +0000 1/27/05, Jonathon Green wrote: >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: "See You Later" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Jon, Why the hell not? We are the custodians of language. >> >>P.S.: If anybody besides Jon, Jesse, Grant, & Erin ever used this >>term, let us know. >> >> >I ought to throw this in, then: > >2004 Tim Dorsey _Cadillac Beach_ 189: 'How'd you hear?' 'Jawed with him >on the Ameche.' > >That said, it occurs in a page of conscious archaisms - Dorsey has a >deranged modern cop pretending to be his 40s equivalent - nonetheless... > >JG Googling "the Ameche" brings up 195 hits, and judging from a quick look-see, many of these have the intended telephonic referent, even after you eliminate references to "the Ameche ballroom", "the Ameche story", and for all I know, if you look through all the hits, "the Ameche 1-yard touchdown run to defeat the Giants in 1958". larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 15:50:05 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:50:05 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:44 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "See You Later" > > > "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is > stranger than we *can* imagine." > > --Some Guy. Before Now. Fred? "The universe is not only queerer than what we suppose, it is queerer than we can suppose." I've seen it attributed to Arthur Eddington (and Arthur C. Clarke), but it looks like it was said by J. B. S. Haldane. Wikipedia says it was in his story "My Friend Mr. Leakey", but an online version: http://www.marxists.org/archive/haldane/works/1930s/leakey.htm does not have it. Let's hear it for open source . . . . From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 16:29:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:29:27 -0600 Subject: "the ameche" was RE: "See You Later" Message-ID: >From the comic strip "Freckles and his Friends" 11/23/1944, Merrill Blosser, NEA Service. Panel 1: Mr. Wilson (principal?) "-- And if this keeps up, the English Language will eventually lose its identity! -- For instance, studying is not "worming." High school is NOT a "brain factory." A diploma is NOT a "parole." Freckles: "Yes, Sir!" Panel 2 Secretary (answering phone): "Mr. Wilson's office!" Mr. Wilson (still talking to Freckles): "If this strange language is continued, it may even contaminate the FACULTY!" Panel 3 Secretary (to Mr. Wilson): "Somebody wants to talk to you on the Ameche!" Mr. Wilson's pince nez glasses pop off his face in astonishment! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:29:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:29:40 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Yesssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. "Dish" = "desirable guy" predates Jasper. Young women were already referring to such guys as "foxes" in the '70s. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Jonathan Lighter: >> >>These odd terms seem to be made up. > >John Baker: >> >>The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >>According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. > >Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW >Team": > >>Hi there, >> >>Thanks for writing! > > >>Yes - Lynn did make up the ?jive talk? >>that the kids in the strip are using. >> >>Have a great day, >> >>Allison >>Allison Zadorozny >>FBorFW Team > >www.fborfw.com > >This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >circulation. Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the "Mean Girls" version of Evanston... Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:30:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:30:44 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Last message went out before I could change "predates" to "should predate." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:53 PM -0500 1/26/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Jonathan Lighter: >> >>These odd terms seem to be made up. > >John Baker: >> >>The Comics Curmudgeon blog, http://joshreads.com/, discusses this strip. >>According to one of the comments, the slang terms are indeed made up. > >Someone on the comments list got this official response from the "FBorFW >Team": > >>Hi there, >> >>Thanks for writing! > > >>Yes - Lynn did make up the ?jive talk? >>that the kids in the strip are using. >> >>Have a great day, >> >>Allison >>Allison Zadorozny >>FBorFW Team > >www.fborfw.com > >This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York Times >fell for: . Perhaps Lynn >Johnston was trying to see if she could get some coinages into >circulation. Well, it worked pretty well for "fetch", in real life if not in the "Mean Girls" version of Evanston... Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:34:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:34:33 -0800 Subject: God in the details (1960) Message-ID: Pre-1953 cites welcomed. In fact, demanded. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: God in the details (1960) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:33 PM, sagehen wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sagehen >> Subject: Re: God in the deatils (1960) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Wilson Gray writes: >> >>>> I associated that "devil" with the (mega-unPC) proverbial "n*gger in >>>> the woodpile", the hidden problem that will cause trouble if not >>>> sought >>>> out and eliminated. >>> >>> Interesting! I've always assumed that this saying meant only that a >>> person purporting to be of pure European(-American) ancestry was >>> suspected of hiding African(-American) ancestry. >> ~~~~~~~~~ >> There was some discussion of this expression on ADS-L several years >> ago >> (perhaps the archives could be consulted) in which it appeared that >> quite >> a few people understood its meaning to be as you describe. Most of them >> were young enough that their experience of its use was probably >> literary or >> at least second-hand. Only us old farts knew the real skinny. But >> here >> you are, one of us (OF), and had the same idea. Was this understanding >> general among blacks of your generation? >> A. Murie >> > >Yes, it is. That it might have some other meaning is a possibility that >has caught me completely by surprise. I've consulted my brother and a >few old - no pun intended - friends and they agree with me. We know >only the "passing-for-white" meaning and the 'hidden-problem" meaning >is one that none of us has come across before. > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ I found an old posting to ads-l from Doug Wilson, summer 2000: >RHHDAS shows the sense of (1) "hidden nefarious thing" from 1843, the >>sense of (2) "black ancestor" from 1953. >It is my belief that the use of the expression in the first sense was >virtually obsolete in many circles by the time of the origin of the second >sense. Thus (I think) many people around 1950 still recognized the >expression but no longer remembered what it meant, and therefore applied it >to something different. ~~~~~~~~~~ One is bound to wonder whether the source of the RHHDAS entry was ignorant of or inattentive to the interpretation given this by blacks before 1953. AM --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 27 16:34:37 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:34:37 -0500 Subject: limousine liberal WAS Grass roots Message-ID: NYC's beloved (to some) Big Tim Sullivan described the "goo-goos' (good government reformers, who were chief among those to whom he was not beloved) as "silk hats, silk stockings, and nothing much in between". GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill" Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:50 pm Subject: limousine liberal WAS Grass roots > The 1912 McClure's Magazine cite from the OED is in the APS ProQuest > database. > That same article includes an interest antecedent for "limousine > liberal": > > MANUFACTURING PUBLIC OPINION > BY GEORGE KIBBE TURNER > McClure's Magazine (1893-1926); Jul 1912; VOL. XXXIX, No. 3; APS > Onlinepg. 316 > > "The silk-hat and limousine vote, bound together in the Taft leagues, > swung > heavily for Taft; the factory vote went strongly for Roosevelt." > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Quinion > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:48 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Grass roots > > > > > > > The OED has it from June 1912 in reference to the attempt by > > Teddy Roosevelt to become president. I've found a number of > > examples from that year, all in reference to his campaign, > > which might suggest it was coined by somebody connected to > > it. There's also one from 1920 on newpaperarchive.com that > > links the sense to Roosevelt's principles. > > "America in So Many Words" dates it to 1902, but that is in > > the sense of the fundamentals of a situation. > > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 16:37:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:37:13 -0800 Subject: Copasetic Message-ID: A: Evidence ? B: If there is any, the question of etymology remains unresolved. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Copasetic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With the originator's permission, I cross-post this message from the Publore listserv (Public Sector Folklore, not the 'lore of pubs'). They are currently discussing 'copasetic.' >Credit where credit is due: the word was coined by the great jazz tap >artist Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949). As his entry in American >National Biography Online notes >(http://www.anb.org/articles/18/18-00990.html), it was in his >hometown of Richmond, Va., that "he invented the famous phrase >'everything's copasetic,' meaning everything's tip-top or first-rate." > >--Jurretta Heckscher ~~~~~~ >Dr. Jurretta Jordan >Heckscher >Research Specialist >Digital Reference Team >The Library of Congress >Washington, D.C. 20540-4604 Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 27 16:51:04 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:51:04 -0500 Subject: hello In-Reply-To: <20050127050314.011DAB2854@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Kara Everman wrote: >>> please take me the fuck off of this stupid web list <<< When you subscribed to this list, you received a message with the subject "You are now subscribed to the ADS-L list". It contained the following sentence, prominently displayed in a paragraph of its own: >>> You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF ADS-L" command to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU. <<< I recommend that you RTFM. In case you are unfamiliar with that initialism, it means "read the fucking manual", or in this case "read the fucking message". Sincerely yours, Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jan 27 16:52:02 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:52:02 -0800 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <012601c5041c$22428f70$c5c23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: I haven't indented a paragraph in years. For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using the 14th edition. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to > Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they > rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn > to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail > sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 16:57:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:57:11 -0600 Subject: Canadian Ballet Message-ID: >From the blog The Comics Curmudgeon: http://joshreads.com/index.php?p=53 "And so, just as there are enormous fireworks warehouses mere yards over the Indiana border, dozens of strip clubs line the streets of the Canadian towns just across the Niagara River from Buffalo. (These clubs were collectively known as "the Canadian ballet," a euphemism I find terrifically amusing to this day.) " From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 17:04:10 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:04:10 -0500 Subject: Channumas Message-ID: >From the minutes of the December 15, 1978 meeting of the Washington [DC] Science Fiction Association, posted on-line at http://www.wsfa.org/journal/j79/1/ "The seasonal shrub, in honor of Channimas, was decorated with fannish trinkets, around its feet were piled the books we voted ourselves, in sentimental profusion: there would be egg nog." "Channimas" apparently is a misspelling of "Channumas". I don't recall anything about Channumas (in any spelling), even though the same minutes claim I was present at the meeting. It was a long-standing tradition in WSFA to have a "pagan tree trimming" in December, but I don't recall anyone in WSFA referring to the occasion as "Channumas". A Google search turns up a little less than 2,000 hits on various spellings of "Channumas". - Jim Landau From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Jan 27 17:12:20 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:12:20 +0000 Subject: the genital case In-Reply-To: <200501252206.j0PM6HsQ007462@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: Couldn't resist sharing this with you. Incidentally, typographic slang for an exclamation mark/point is a dog's cock. Perhaps that influenced the author: "Why don't you help Terry to a shower," he said, "later, I have some more questions I want to put to her." "Why is a shower important?" Mavis pouted. She frowned at Phil's wide grin. "I am to use my exclamation point on her again and I want a nice, clean, perfumy sentence to punctuate." - Dana Swanson, 'Blackmailed Into Swapping', Chelsea Library Press, San Diego, 1970s Online at http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/libertine/novels/clp/Dana_Swanson.Bla ckmailed_Into_Swapping.CLP-174.txt From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Jan 27 17:22:19 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:22:19 -0500 Subject: "the ameche" was RE: "See You Later" Message-ID: Bill Mullins wrote: >>From the comic strip "Freckles and his Friends" 11/23/1944, Merrill >Blosser, NEA Service. Nice to see 'Freckles and his Friends' (an old research subject of mine) in the limelight. But I believe that some time before 1944, Henry Formhals had taken over production of the strip, ghostwriting/drawing, while still using originator Merrill Blosser's signature and syndication. Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 17:20:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:20:20 -0800 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: Nothing Graves *ever* says about things he didn't see should be accepted on faith. Some of what he did see is questionable too. Outstanding poet, great story-teller. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Wikipedia, cigarettes were largely unknown in the English-speaking world prior to the Crimean War. However, Tobacco.org was this account of the invention of the modern cigarette: <<1832: TURKEY: Invention of the paper-rolled cigarette? While Southwest Indians, Aztecs and Mayans had used hollow reeds, cane or maize to fashion cylindrical tobacco-holders, and Sevillians had rolled cigar-scraps in thrown-away paper (papeletes), an Egyptian artilleryman [in the Turk/Egyptian war] is credited with the invention of the cigarette as we know it. In the siege of Acre, the Egyptian's cannon crew had improved their rate of fire by rolling the gunpowder in paper tubes. For this, he and his crew were rewarded with a pound of tobacco. Their sole pipe was broken, however, so they took to rolling the pipe tobacco in the paper. The invention spread among both Egyptian and Turkish soldiers. And thus . . . (Good-Bye to All That, 1970)>> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:04 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? I actually researched this once, so naturally I can't remember anything I found out except that cigarettes in one form another predate the Crimean War. Hey, the OED has "French ladies" smokin' like chimneys in 1842! So my credibility is thoroughly back! Before then, I seem to recall, "cigarettes" might be referred to in literature as "(little) cigars" or something similar. Most of my early knowledge came from comic books, Wilson, so I share what must be your profound disillusionment. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" died of lung cancer. -Wilson Gray On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > <> = > time - 400+ years. That's right. It was in the mid 1500's when a > member = > of the LaCroix family made the first tobacco rolling papers. They = > weren't called Rizla then, not until they started using rice compounds > = > for paper. (Riz - French for Rice and La - for LaCroix). They became = > popular in the US and Europe (they originated in France) by the mid = > 1800's. >> > > This is lifted from the website = > http://www.ryomagazine.com/january/papers.htm > > While this may be slightly out of the scope of this list, I'd love = > anyone who has insights or abilities to confirm or deny their > assertions = > about rolling papers in the 1500's. =20 > > Thx. > > Sam Clements > > PS--as usual, this one came up over at The Straight Dope. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jan 27 17:31:39 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:31:39 -0500 Subject: Consequence, as a verb In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050126182532.02f7feb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Well, now I can see why Fiske's dictionary itself might be disagreeable. At 06:31 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: >>Eventually, i figured out the translation: "To consequence" was being used >>as a 1-for-1 stand-in for "to punish". (It was realizing that the noun >>"consequences" was being used in place of "punishments" that got me to >>realize this.) Is this a new(-ish) linguistic fashion among child-rearing >>types, or has this been bubbling along beneath my awareness for a while now? > >Robert Hartwell Fiske's "Dictionary of Disagreeable English" defines this >verb and provides a brief critique: > ><_punish_. .... / Not yet in many dictionaries, the politically correct, >though completely inane and pathetic, to _consequence_ is increasingly used >by psychologists and human resource personnel, themselves often inane and >pathetic. ....>> > >-- Doug Wilson From Vocabula at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 17:52:07 2005 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:52:07 EST Subject: Consequence, as a verb Message-ID: In a message dated 1/27/2005 12:35:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: Well, now I can see why Fiske's dictionary itself might be disagreeable. Yeah? Well, I'm no fan of Flanigan ... (Fiske himself is far more disagreeable than his dictionary) Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com/ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 _________________________ Two Vocabula Books: The Dictionary of Disagreeable English http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp "However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this lovely, sour, virtuous book." ? Wall Street Journal Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in The Vocabula Review over the last few years From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 27 17:58:14 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:58:14 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: I forwarded Benjamin Zimmer's post to my wife. She comments: >>>>> Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" <<<<< -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 18:02:35 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:02:35 -0600 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: I've been doing some biographical research on Robert A. Heinlein late. As part of it, I ran across some comments about _Astounding Science Fiction_, the pulp that published much of his early work. They censored _everything_ that was remotely dirty, and apparently writers would make a game of getting stuff in. I read about alien names that were phonetic matches for foreign cuss words, and reference to a "ball bearing rat catcher" (nominally, a device that includes ball bearings, but the in-joke was that it was a tomcat, i.e., it bears balls). > > Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the > only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a > censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if > you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" > > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 27 18:05:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:05:14 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <20050127162941.22297.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2005, at 11:29, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> This reminds me of the old "grunge speak" hoax that the New York >> Times fell for: . Perhaps Lynn Johnston was trying to see if she >> could get some coinages into circulation. Let's not forget the dreadful "Hipster's Handbook" while we're at it. Reporters with quicklimed brains and bloggers desperate to appear fetch still quote it. I'll deck the man who farted out "deck" if I ever meet him. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jan 27 18:04:01 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:04:01 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <012601c5041c$22428f70$c5c23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: Janis, Is this a computer program, and if so, where did you get it? Would it be useful for ESL students and their teachers. If it's too child-focused, can it be upgraded? At 09:58 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: > I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to > Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they > rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn > to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail > sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:06:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:06:38 -0800 Subject: Consequence, as a verb Message-ID: To "consequence" isn't "politically correct," it's just stupid! One thing that makes it stupid is its vagueness: it doesn't = "punish" or "discipline," particularly, it's just a mealy-mouthed way of getting out of saying one or the other. It means "give, oh, I dunno, consequences, I guess. Is that OK?" Fiske and I may be consequenced for this view with cruel caricatures now and the ridicule of the English-speakers (if any) of the 22rd century. Tough. JL Robert Hartwell Fiske wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Robert Hartwell Fiske Subject: Re: Consequence, as a verb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/27/2005 12:35:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: Well, now I can see why Fiske's dictionary itself might be disagreeable. Yeah? Well, I'm no fan of Flanigan ... (Fiske himself is far more=20 disagreeable than his dictionary) Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review http://www.vocabula.com/ =20 The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 _________________________ =20 Two Vocabula Books:=20 =20 The Dictionary of Disagreeable English http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp=20 =20 "However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... Hi= s=20 own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this=20 lovely, sour, virtuous book." =E2=80=94 Wall Street Journal =20 =20 Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp =20 Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in= =20 The Vocabula Review over the last few years --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jan 27 18:11:10 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:11:10 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1106815922@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >I haven't indented a paragraph in years. > >For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and >signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now >I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied >to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the >indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no >space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using >the 14th edition. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart > wrote: > >> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to >>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they >>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn >>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail >>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:15:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:15:57 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: I am shocked and offended by made-up, meaningless language palmed off on us and our young children as having a recognizable and recoverable meaning. Reading the "funny papers" used to be a warm, family activity at our house, but "For Better or for Worse" has ended that forever. We without humor are Americans too! My righteous message to the appropriate governmental guardian agencies has been sent. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I forwarded Benjamin Zimmer's post to my wife. She comments: >>>>> Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" <<<<< -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:17:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:17:03 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: For proof, check out "ball-bearing WAC" in HDAS. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been doing some biographical research on Robert A. Heinlein late. As part of it, I ran across some comments about _Astounding Science Fiction_, the pulp that published much of his early work. They censored _everything_ that was remotely dirty, and apparently writers would make a game of getting stuff in. I read about alien names that were phonetic matches for foreign cuss words, and reference to a "ball bearing rat catcher" (nominally, a device that includes ball bearings, but the in-joke was that it was a tomcat, i.e., it bears balls). > > Good for her! Media censors are so crazy these days that the > only way to talk about anything may be to make it up. If a > censor challenged this, she could double dare him: "Okay, if > you think I'm using vulgar language, what does it mean?" > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Jan 27 18:19:32 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:19:32 -0800 Subject: indenting Message-ID: That's why we indent. Fritz >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 01/27/05 10:11AM >>> I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 18:20:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:20:46 -0500 Subject: "Mother made me a homosexual" (1967) Message-ID: This is in the same "Jesus Saves, Moses Invests" graffiti article. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Graffiti To Print By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) Second page: Underneath the confession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL, someone scribbled: IF I GET HER THE WOOL, WILL SHE MAKE ME ONE, TOO? (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Mansfield News Friday, March 11, 1977 Mansfield, Ohio ...soggy And hArd to light. MOTHER MADE ME A homosexuAl. I send her the wool.....dirty And got the reply, New York MADE ME dirty- When soMEbody suggested, is no.. Daily Gleaner Wednesday, March 01, 1967 Kingston, Kingston ...on A wAll 'the con fession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL- Anc underneAth.....The pArticu1 r incident which MADE ME record the detAils took plAce on.. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 18:21:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:21:29 -0800 Subject: indenting Message-ID: Setting the margins in this d@^^'3d program is so impossible without RTFM that I don't bother. Others may have the same problem. Otherwise, indent or get consequenced. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: indenting ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >I haven't indented a paragraph in years. > >For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and >signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now >I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied >to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the >indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no >space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using >the 14th edition. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart > wrote: > >> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to >>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they >>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn >>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail >>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jan 27 18:58:52 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:58:52 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse In-Reply-To: <20050127162941.22297.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: >"Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still >occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. > >JL ~~~~~~~~ Dunno about FB or FW, but FWIW, "grunge" & "grungy" were both alive & well and in constant use in the late 40s early 50s on the Reed College campus. They were sort of all-purpose words: could mean "stuff," could mean "crud," could be an expletive ("grunge!"). It was thought to have been an import from the USNavy: there were a lot of GI Bill vets in school then. I rarely heard it after leaving Reed, except among old Reedies, though "grungy" would turn up sporadically in fiction (esp. Brit), meaning dirty or ratty. The reappearance in the Pac NW music scene (when? late 80s, early 90s) seemed like a spontaneous new birth. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 27 20:31:05 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:31:05 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <20050127182129.53412.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Setting the margins in this d@^^'3d program is so impossible without >RTFM that I don't bother. Others may have the same problem. > >Otherwise, indent or get consequenced. > >JL Jon's point anticipates mine, which was that a lot of the motivation for switching from indenting paragraphs to spacing between them comes from switching between formats and platforms, in particular between plain text (as in e-mail) and word processing software. The indentation tends to just get lost; the extra spacing doesn't. L >Beverly Flanigan wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: indenting >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between >paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from >students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. > >At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >>I haven't indented a paragraph in years. >> >>For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and >>signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now >>I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied >>to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the >>indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no >>space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using >>the 14th edition. >> >>Peter Mc. >> >>--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart >> wrote: >> >>> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to >>>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they >>>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn >>>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail >>>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. >> >> >> >>***************************************************************** >>Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 20:33:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:33:13 -0500 Subject: krumping Message-ID: I'm surprised this one hasn't come up here or on doubletongued.org... This year's Sundance Film Festival features "Rize", David LaChapelle's documentary about the "krumping" dance style (LaChapelle directed a short called "Krumped" that played at Sundance last year). See: . * krumping, n. 2004 _NY Times_ 21 Jan. (Arts) 1 (Nexis) His quick, excitable mode of speaking is similar to krumping, the whip-quick dancing of his subjects that includes bits of hip-hop and pantomime martial-arts movement. ... "I got to be there before krumping became a Burger King commercial, before it started getting used in videos," he said. "You can see krumping in the OutKast video, where the kids are dancing and breaking into it while wearing tuxedos." 2004 _MTV News_ 23 Apr. (online) We've gotten a potent dosage of clown dancing ? or krumping, as it's called ? in videos such as Missy Elliott's "I'm Really Hot" and the Black Eyed Peas "Hey Mama." ... The dance form eventually evolved into what he calls krumping. "Krumping is when you're dancing and your body is doing a lot of different moves," Tommy explained. 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) Another artist who will be arriving next week is Tommy the Clown, one of the stars of the current underground movement in Los Angeles, "krumping", which is taking over inner-city neighbourhoods. 2004 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland) 1 Jul. F1 (Nexis) Johnson sees krumping as a creative, "happy" way for teens to express themselves. There are no set moves to krumping, which is done at a hyperfast speed and mixes herky-jerky break-dance and martial-arts-style moves with spasmodic booty shaking. "It's freestyle; we go with the flow," says Johnson, who coined the term krumping. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) The allure of krumpin', a furiously energetic street dance unique to South Los Angeles, is its no-holds-barred physicality, its encouragement of improvisation and its unexpected and imaginative use of theatrical face paint. ... With Tommy's encouragement, Dragon and some of the troupe's best dancers, including 'Lil C, split off to form a group of their own, incorporating elements of break-dancing, karate and pantomime, as well as an undercurrent of very grown-up aggression. They named their new style krumpin'. * krump, v. 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) Some of Tommy's dancers were krumping in Christina Aguilera's video for "Dirty". 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) Daisy is 14 years old, with red tennis shoes, pigtails and a broad, sweet face that, when she's krumpin', becomes suddenly lean and cat-like, beautiful in the fierce manner of Egyptian queens. "It all comes out when I'm krumpin'," she says. "Everything that frustrates me and hurts me, it all comes out. I'm angry when I'm krumpin', but when I'm done, it's all good. When I'm done, I'm calm." ... "We're all of the same tree, but we're different branches," says a 19-year-old clowner named Rocco. "If we're krumpin', it's more aggressive. If we're clownin', it's more happy and go-lucky. There's a style for every mood." * krumping, attrib. 2004 _MTV News_ 23 Apr. (online) The krumping era just may be upon us. "The clowning and the krumping dance movement, it is a very positive thing because it really does keep kids off the streets," krumping originator Thomas Johnson, a.k.a. Tommy the Clown, explained in Los Angeles recently. 2004 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland) 1 Jul. F1 (Nexis) Johnson, who recently completed a krumping workshop in England, is hoping to take his show on the road. He wants to set up krumping classes in other cities and is in talks for a TV program. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) Once you've watched Daisy in a krumpin' competition, this catharsis comes as no surprise. ... As more and more clownin' and krumpin' groups began to form through the late '90s, Tommy sensed a hunger for some healthy competition between the crews. ... As Miss Prissy says this, a round of cheers marks the end of Daisy's second krumpin' session of the day. * krumped, ppl. adj. 2004 _NY Times_ 21 Jan. (Arts) 1 (Nexis) "Apparently the word krumped goes back a long ways, from the black church," Mr. LaChappelle said. "When you're krumped, you're feeling it. It's about being brave and doing something with grace." 2004 _NY Arts_ Mar./Apr. (online) When a person is said to be "Krumped" they are dancing the most intense form of a dance called "Clowning". ... "[I]f you're in that zone, if you're being brave, you're not intellectualizing and you're just flowing, you?re doing your thing and just creating ? then you're 'Krumped'. That's why you're probably going to be hearing this term, it's going to become part of the vernacular." 2004 _Financial Times_ 1 May 12 (Nexis) Most of the moves are practised and rehearsed, but when a dancer is "krumped" (completely engrossed), he or she will perform moves that are purely improvisational. 2004 _Dance_ Jul. (online) "Getting krumped" is the state in which a dancer feeds off the energy of the audience, the other participants, the music, and his or her own adrenaline until the movement grows theatrical, inventive, and sometimes cathartic. * krump, n. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) As 'Lil C puts it, grinning: "The dance floor is our canvas, and krump is our 'Mona Lisa.'" * krump, attrib. 2004 _NY Arts_ Mar./Apr. (online) You go to the Krump sessions and there's not one other person there taking pictures. ... I looked at Krump Dancing as a valid art form. 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) Tommy and the Hip Hop Clowns' krump dancing and hip-hop clowning demonstrations over the weekend are set to shake up the normally measured conservatism of Sadler's Wells. "It will be explosive," promises Tommy, the Clown who is bringing over 11 krump practitioners. * krump, adj. (= "krumped") 2004 _Independent_ (London) 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) "I started saying "He's getting krump" when a dancer was getting really busy with the dance moves," he says about his hyper version of clown dancing (a blend of hip-hop dancing and traditional party clowning) "but it is more athletic, more adult." 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) "You can't be krump unless you're pure, unless you truly believe in yourself." ... "You have to be born krump, you have to be in a krump state of mind." * krumpness, n. 2004 _NY Arts_ Mar./Apr. (online) The thing about "Krumpness" this term that they use is it is not just for the dancers; it's not just Krump dancing. They say this in the film - "Krumpness", can be applied to your everyday life. 2004 _Dance_ Jul. (online) As Dragon, a dancer featured in Krumped, describes it, "Krumpness is an abstraction of your inner being." 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) "Krumpness," explains Miss Prissy, a whip-thin 23-year-old and one of the original female krumpers, "is an attitude. You can see my story when I dance. There?s a lot going on down here in South Central that?s hard. There are homes being disrupted by violence, and a lot of people do drugs to deal with that, or they drink. Instead of doing that, we dance." ... "It's a real tribal movement," she says quietly. "It's hip-hop in its raw form; it's the meat before it's on the grill. That's what krumpness is, and that's how we give it to you, every time. ... Krumpness changes every day, and I think that's what's going to make it stick around." * krumper, n. 2004 _Financial Times_ 1 May 12 (Nexis) By then, he had renamed his group Tommy and the Hip Hop Clowns. Now they're called Tommy the Clown and the Hip Hop Krumpers. 2004 _Plain Dealer_ (Cleveland) 1 Jul. F1 (Nexis) Not only do krumpers frenetically dance like clowns, they look like them, too. 2004 _Dance_ Jul. (online) The krumpers are young and work hard. 2004 _LA Times_ 21 Aug. E1 (Nexis) She and several similarly adorned krumpers have gathered in the parking lot... Interspersed among the krumpers is another group of dancers, the clowners, so named for their colorful carnival gear -- baggy patchwork pants, faces decorated with bright mosaics of circus greasepaint. Where the krumpers are tribal in their choice of makeup, the clowners have opted for a look reminiscent of turn-of-the-century vaudeville. * krumpy, adj. 2004 _Independent_ 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) "It all kicked off when we started to get all krumpy at weekends," explains Tommy the Clown, who has been up all night at a party. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 20:50:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:50:25 -0500 Subject: krumping Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:33:13 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >* krumpy, adj. > >2004 _Independent_ 27 Apr. 14 (Nexis) "It all kicked off when we started >to get all krumpy at weekends," explains Tommy the Clown, who has been up >all night at a party. Upon rereading, it's pretty clear that this quote was "corrected" by the _Independent_ reporter or her editors. I highly doubt that a speaker from South Central LA would ever say "at weekends" rather than "on weekends" or "on the weekend". --Ben Zimmer From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Thu Jan 27 20:42:17 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:42:17 EST Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: The Pizzazz of Jazz: the Sanas (etymology) of Jazz (rough notes to a ragged tune) The recent research of Gerald Cohen and others has uncovered that the word "Jazz" suddenly starts to appear in the San Francisco Bulletin in March 1913 in a series of articles about baseball by Irish American reporter Edward ? Scoop? Gleeson. Early examples of jazz have nothing to do with music but refer to an intangible quality possessed by baseball players, what another writer in the S.F. Bulletin, Ernest Hopkins, described in April that year as ?life, vigor, energy, effervescence of spirit, joy, pep, magnetism, verve, virility, ebulliency, courage, happiness ? oh, what?s the use? ? Jazz. Nothing else can express it? . (Online Etymological Notes) Teas, m, (pron. jass or chass) Heat, High spirits, Excitement, Ardor, Passion, Vigor, Fervor, Zeal, Highest Temperature.(Dineen, pp. 1194-95; O'Donaill, pp. 1221-22, Dwelly, p. 994) Teasa?, adj. (pron. jassy, chassy). Hot, high spirited, exciting, ardent, passionate, vehement, fiery. (see cites above) Jazz or Jass is the American English phonetic spelling and pronunciation of the Irish and Gaelic word Teas, pronounced jass or chass. Its first published sources in San Francisco are all Irish Americans, which should have given someone a clue. But then modern Anglo-American linguists treat Irish Americans and their culture and dialect as balbh (mute), despite the fact that through the 1920s, more than half of Irish emigrants to the US were Irish-Speakers, like my own Brooklyn Irish family. If it had been any other ethnic group, someone might have at least cracked an Irish dictionary. But the rule of scientific English etymology is that "there are no Irish words in the American or English languages, not even in slang." This is the Iron Linguistic Law of faux scientific English etymology. But back to the teasai (pron. jassy) tale... The San Francisco Irish American sports reporter Scoop Gleeson claimed he heard the word jazz from fellow Irish American newspaperman, Spike Slattery, while they were at the training camp of the local baseball team, the San Francisco Seals. Slattery said he had heard it in a crap game. Art Hickman, an unemployed local Irish American musician, was at the camp to make contacts among the newsmen, but took on the job of organizing some entertainment. Among these was a Rag (Raig, rush, on impulse, rapid, frivolous) Time band he created from other out-of-work musicians, including a couple of banjo players. It was this band that developed a new sound that was allegedly described for the first time in the baseball training camp as "jazz." This name went with Hickman to engagements in San Francisco and later to New York. (Online Etymological Notes, ADS-L notes) Raig, (also spelled Riodhg, dh = h) a sudden rush, a sudden impulse, a strong and sudden impulse to do something reckless; rapid time; frivolity; fig. ? drifting, enjoying life.? (Dineen, pp. 873-74, O'Donaill, Dwelly) Which is how you play Raig Time. New Orleans Irish American "Papa Jack" Laine, the founder of the early integrated Reliance Band in New Orleans, called his early version of ragtime music Ragged music. It was the music that the brass bands broke into when they left the cemetery after a funeral , letting loose with up-tempo, syncopated songs as they strolled through the streets with the Second Line, acting the fool, and cutting loose with the ragged hot syncopations of upbeat tunes. Ragged Raig?ocht (ch = h) Strolling about, acting the tramp, straying. Like the march of the Second Line. But let's wander back like a bunch of happy tramps to the heat of teas (pron. jass, chass.) The words Jazz then seems to stroll and stray to Chicago, through the effort of Irish American bandleader, Bert Kelly. In 1916 Jazz appeared there in a different spelling in the name of the New Orleans Jass Band. Despite this band ?s name, according to this new research, the word still wasn?t known in New Orleans until 1917, as early jazz musicians attested. It is said to have arrived through the medium of a letter from Freddie Keppard in Chicago to the cornet player Joe Oliver. Oliver showed the letter to protege Louis Armstrong and the name soon became applied to the hot, passionate, high-spirited Teas (pron. jass or chass) that was the New Orleans style that became dominant, and which was later called hot jazz (teas, pron. jass, also means "heat, hottest, highest temperature") to distinguish it from the Art Hickman sort of cool jazz. The big question remains: where did those San Francisco Irish American crapshooters of 1913 get their word from? Of course, given the Iron Rule of Scientific English Etymology it can never ever be Irish or even Scots-Gaelic. The Scientific Iron Rule decrees that even the millions of Irish American children of Irish speakers do not retain even one word of Irish in their American slang and speech. Edward Gleason, the Irish American reporter, said that when they rolled the dice the crap shooters would call out ?Come on, the old jazz?. (Teas, pron. Jass, high spirits, excitement) It looks as though they were using the word as an incantation, a call to the gambling "gods of the odds" to smile on them. Teas is jazz. The Iron Rule of Scientific English Etymology melts into a puddle of malarkey (moll labharchta) in the teas (heat, high spirits, fervor, excitement, high spirits, highest temperature) of the non-scientific, hot, hybrid-Irish slang and speech of Irish America. Jazz is made of Pizzazz January 27, 2005, a NY Times headline reads ?Publishing Sees Pizazz Potential in New Awards.? Pizzazz or pizazz means ? a piece of heat, ardor, passion, excitement." Little sparkles and bits of jazz (teas, heat, excitement) It?s a small but very jazzy word. P?osa theas (pron. peesa has)is the hot Irish source of pizzazz and means ?a piece of heat or excitement or passion.? It also melts the scientific etymological English Iron Rule: No Irish In English. When the Irish word Teas (pron. jass, or chass) is aspirated it shape shifts in the mouth to theas (pron. has or hass.) P?osa Theas, (pronounced Pees-hass, the "Th" is aspirated to "H" in speech. A piece of heat, excitement, ardor, passion, vigor, high spirits, fervor, zeal, and highest temperature. Its plural is piosai theas. I was not going to include pizzazz in these very rough notes, because English speakers are baffled by Irish aspiration. But pizzazz is such a jazzy (teasai, pron. Jassy or chassy, ?high spirited?) word I went with my aspirations, instead. The Irish language after all adds Jazz, Pizzazz, and aspiration to the American Language. Many thanks to the mighty research of Gerald Cohen on ADS-L and other scholars. I look forward to any comments. I am using this material for my non Iron-Rule non-scientific book project on the tongue of the Irish poor of the English and American saol luim, the Gangs of NY, and the Jazz Age. . Peace and thanks to the members of ADS-L. Daniel Cassidy Professor of Irish Studies The Irish Studies Program, New College of California, San Francisco. Jan. 27, 2005 FOLK + From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Jan 27 21:15:11 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:15:11 -0500 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? In-Reply-To: <200501261831831.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Columbus and his crew, landing in the Bahamas on October 12th, 1492 were the first Europeans to encouter the Taino People. The Ta?no spoke a form of Arawak and used the words: barbecue, "hammock", canoe, and tabaco which have been incorporated into the English and Spanish languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%EDnos best, karen ellis >FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented >until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out >of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. >So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for >rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read >this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of >history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had >nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that >occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" >died of lung cancer. > >-Wilson Gray <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 21:39:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:39:09 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050127141905.3476.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patti J. Kurtz wrote: > >Anyone know about when this expression was used as a casual form of >"good-bye"? I'm writing a historical novel and am not certain it's >something my characters would say. Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >OED incredibly offers no exx. of "See you later!" in either a literal >or formulaic sense, but has formulaic "See you soon!" from 1891 and >"See you again!" from 1906. In 1950s N.Y.C., these were common, as >were the even more informal "See ya!" and "See ya 'round!" In my own >mind, at least, "See ya later!" always seemed to be literal, referring >to a particular time that day. That it was also used as a mere formula >didn't occur to me until I left N.Y.C. in the mid-'70s. I actually >remember being slightly taken aback by it. When I said it to my mother >over the Ameche (inside slangster humor here), she too answered, "Later? >You're in Tennessee." > >The point of all this is that you could place "See ya later!" any time >after 1890 without derailing history, though the reality might bemore >complicated and somebody could still carp at you. > >Meanwhile, we should all send Jesse some sorely needed cites. Earlier I had written: >Newspaperarchive dates it back to 1879: > >Marion Daily Star (Ohio), March 25, 1879, p. 3/2 "Call again -- very >busy -- see you later -- got to go right over the river!" said the >restaurant man as he got away out of sight. > >Looks fairly common in the 1880s-90s. In an email, Jonathan notes that the 1879 usage sounds "literal", not "formulaic". I would say that even if the phrase was "literal", in that the speaker was expressing an intention to see the interlocutor at some later point, it could still have been "formulaic" (an idiomatic shortening of "I will see you later"). Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: ----- 1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. ----- 1882 _Freeborn Co. Standard_ (Minn.) 7 Sep. 2/6 The bore (with a wink:) "I understand, old fellow. See you later." Departs without the remotest suspicion that he was the bore. ----- 1883 _Indiana Democrat_ (Pa.) 12 Jul. 4/6 Kate Field thus describes the American dude... Place a cigarette in its mouth: teach it a brief vocabulary of verbs and adjectives, commencing with 'immensely clever,' and 'see you later, you know,' and in my humble opinion you obtain a fair conception of the brains and capacity of the American dude. ----- 1887 _Olean Democrat_ (N.Y.) 10 Nov. 2/2 I have discovered that there are three kinds of English spoken in Europe, namely: British English (best), American English (picturesque), Continental English (more or less broken): at Waterloo [Belgium] I think I have found the nearest to American English of any I have heard. It is spoken by the girls who sell trinkets, relics, etc., on the field... A little party had gathered by this time, all bareheaded and rosy cheeked, and when I started away there was a chorus of "Ta, ta!" "Come again," "See you later" and other Americanisms, which, I learned afterward, the girls had picked up in various flirtations with spry young men from Uncle Sam's dominions. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Jan 27 22:15:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:15:43 -0500 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:58:52 -0500, sagehen wrote: > Jonathan Lighter writes: >>"Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still >>occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. > >Dunno about FB or FW, but FWIW, "grunge" & "grungy" were both alive & >well and in constant use in the late 40s early 50s on the Reed College >campus. They were sort of all-purpose words: could mean "stuff," could >mean "crud," could be an expletive ("grunge!"). It was thought to have >been an import from the USNavy: there were a lot of GI Bill vets in school >then. >I rarely heard it after leaving Reed, except among old Reedies, though >"grungy" would turn up sporadically in fiction (esp. Brit), meaning dirty >or ratty. >The reappearance in the Pac NW music scene (when? late 80s, early 90s) >seemed like a spontaneous new birth. Just to clarify... the "grunge speak" hoax to which Jonathan and I referred had nothing to do with the term "grunge" itself. The link that I gave provides the whole story of how an overzealous New York Times reporter was bamboozled by Megan Jasper, a sales representative for Sub Pop Records, into printing an entirely spurious lexicon of "grunge" terminology (e.g., "swingin' on the flippety-flop" for "hanging out"). After the hoax was revealed, some ironic types started using Jasper's pseudo-slang with tongue in cheek. --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 22:16:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:16:19 -0800 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: Alison, "grunge" & "grungey" (=crud, cruddy) were in wide use at NYU in 1970-74, but this is the first report of ca1950 currency. Have never seen either one in fiction written or even set before the '60s. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter writes: >"Grunge speak" was indeed a hoax, but several of Jasper's terms are still >occurring - in small numbers - on the Net. > >JL ~~~~~~~~ Dunno about FB or FW, but FWIW, "grunge" & "grungy" were both alive & well and in constant use in the late 40s early 50s on the Reed College campus. They were sort of all-purpose words: could mean "stuff," could mean "crud," could be an expletive ("grunge!"). It was thought to have been an import from the USNavy: there were a lot of GI Bill vets in school then. I rarely heard it after leaving Reed, except among old Reedies, though "grungy" would turn up sporadically in fiction (esp. Brit), meaning dirty or ratty. The reappearance in the Pac NW music scene (when? late 80s, early 90s) seemed like a spontaneous new birth. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 22:37:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:37:43 -0800 Subject: Chillaxin' Message-ID: Derived from the name of Eric Chill-Ax, famous Viking. (Note to lurking undergrads: not true, not a real dewd.) JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 27 22:41:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:41:21 -0800 Subject: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? Message-ID: Well, yeah, Karen, but did they really roll the makin's into coffin nails? One wonders. JL Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround Subject: Re: Rolling papers/Rizla/1500's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Columbus and his crew, landing in the Bahamas on October 12th, 1492 were the first Europeans to encouter the Taino People. The Ta?no spoke a form of Arawak and used the words: barbecue, "hammock", canoe, and tabaco which have been incorporated into the English and Spanish languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%EDnos best, karen ellis >FWIW, I've always had the impression that cigarettes weren't invented >until the time of the Crimean War. Supposedly, Turkish troops ran out >of the easily-broken clay pipes that they normally used for smoking. >So, someone came up with the bright idea of using the paper meant for >rolling gunpowder to make cartridges to roll tobacco, instead. I read >this in an official, board of education-sanctioned comic book of >history when I was in about the fifth grade. Though the comic book had >nothing to say on this point, clearly, it was the use tobacco that >occasioned the downfall of the Turkish Empire. The "Sick Man of Europe" >died of lung cancer. > >-Wilson Gray <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 23:01:41 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:01:41 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive without extraneous characters inserted? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Cassidy > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 2:42 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Daniel Cassidy > Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > The Pizzazz of Jazz: the Sanas (etymology) of Jazz (rough > notes to a > ragged tune) > > The recent research of Gerald Cohen and others has uncovered > that the word "Jazz" suddenly starts to appear in the San > Francisco Bulletin in March 1913 in a series of articles > about baseball by Irish American reporter Edward aEURoe > ScoopaEUR? Gleeson. > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 27 23:34:13 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:34:13 -0600 Subject: For Better or for Worse Message-ID: For the Parent Who Is a 'Grunge': A Glossary of New College Slang By ANGELA TAYLOR New York Times (1857-Current file); Dec 27, 1965; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2001) pg. 20 "A difficult date is an "octopus," a dull one a "grunge" and an untidy one a "dip" or a "spooke." " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 4:16 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: For Better or for Worse > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Alison, "grunge" & "grungey" (=crud, cruddy) were in wide use > at NYU in 1970-74, but this is the first report of ca1950 > currency. Have never seen either one in fiction written or > even set before the '60s. > > JL > > From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Thu Jan 27 23:36:35 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:36:35 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050127225359.7687D23C5D5@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: There aren't any extraneous characters in Mr. Cassidy's post. He is using the correct AOL setting. The list serve software is not able to render the necessary diacriticals correctly. It happens when Barry writes 'nicoise' using the accurate spelling, too. Erik From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 28 00:03:02 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:03:02 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA73B@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > without > extraneous characters inserted? Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies are not Irish in origin? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From write at SCN.ORG Fri Jan 28 01:24:12 2005 From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:24:12 -0800 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050127130854.0347d820@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I ask my students to double space so I can write comments between the lines. I think four spaces between paragraphs looks strange (and wastes paper), so I ask for indenting. Jan On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between > paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from > students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. > > At 11:52 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: > >I haven't indented a paragraph in years. > > > >For letters, the indented style (indented paragraphs, date, address and > >signature on the right) has been out of fashion for a long time. Just now > >I tried without success to find a statement about the two styles as applied > >to books in The Chicago Manual of Style, but I notice that they use the > >indented style (first paragraph flush, subsequent paragraphs indented, no > >space between paragraphs) in their preface. Admittedly, I'm still using > >the 14th edition. > > > >Peter Mc. > > > >--On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:58 PM -0600 Janis Vizier Nihart > > wrote: > > > >> I teach second grade. I have been doing a program called Step Up to > >>Writing with my students for 2 years. They had better indent or they > >>rewrite the whole thing. By the way, the program is great. They learn > >>to write an introductory sentence and a conclusion, with detail > >>sentences, supporting sentences, and transition words.. > > > > > > > >***************************************************************** > >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon > >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 02:14:01 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:14:01 -0500 Subject: "Mother made me a homosexual" (1967) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A graffito that I saw on the wall of the mens' room of the Jellybean Lounge at Brown University: "God didn't create the world in six days. Instead, He fucked off for five days, then pulled an all-nighter." I saw this in 1972, but who knows when it was written. Just heard someone say, "He tells it how it is." I wonder when "how" began to replace "like." (This is just a random thought, y'all. No need to go to the trouble of researching the answer for me, though I do appreciate the kindness.) -Wilson On Jan 27, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Mother made me a homosexual" (1967) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > This is in the same "Jesus Saves, Moses Invests" graffiti article. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Graffiti To Print > By JACOB BRACKMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: > Feb 12, 1967. p. 259 (2 pages) > Second page: > Underneath the confession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL, someone > scribbled: IF I GET HER THE WOOL, WILL SHE MAKE ME ONE, TOO? > > > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Mansfield News Friday, March 11, 1977 Mansfield, Ohio > ...soggy And hArd to light. MOTHER MADE ME A homosexuAl. I send her > the wool.....dirty And got the reply, New York MADE ME dirty- When > soMEbody suggested, is no.. > > Daily Gleaner Wednesday, March 01, 1967 Kingston, Kingston > ...on A wAll 'the con fession MY MOTHER MADE ME A HOMOSEXUAL- Anc > underneAth.....The pArticu1 r incident which MADE ME record the > detAils took plAce on.. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 02:42:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:42:46 EST Subject: "Step on a crack, break your mother's back" (1917) Message-ID: I can't find a date for this saying anywhere. I don't know if Fred Shapiro has or needs "crack," but here's some. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _CHILD INTERVIEW REVEALS GLOOM IN THIS HOME; Trimly Frocked Miss Casually Tells of Struggle and "Nonsupport." _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=381027691&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS= 1106876875&clientId=65882) AUDRIE ALSPAUGH CHASE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 13, 1917. p. 5 (1 page) : ... You must remember yourselves how serious a business that was when once you hopped--it was usually a board sidewalk in your hopping days, was it not?--down the walk to the legend, "Step on a crack, break your mother's back," endeavoring with great filial devotion to avoid the necessity for any such maternal outrage. ... ... _WALKING LORE_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=363334472&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106877062&clientId= 65882) DORIS BLAKE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 23, 1921. p. F2 (1 page) ... "STEP on a crack, you break your mother's back," is a ridiculous superstition which almost every youngster has put faith in at one time or another by hopping over the crack in the sidewalk. Didn't you do it? ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Nebraska State Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2mAEsrI2zXwGEGTxk5ZDlUdnBe+4gPju0EIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 25, 1897 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+step+on+a+crack+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+step+on+a+crack+AND) ...dozens of persONs who believe thAt to STEP ON A crAck Is A sign thAt they will.....And is trying to Avoid STEPpingON A crAck between tho flAgstONes forming the.. Pg. 4, col. 7: ... The peculiar manner in which a well dressed gentleman walked down Chestnut street a few evenings ago attracted attention. Some of his steps were of ordinary length, while others were very short, and others still very long. A stalwart policeman explained the peculiarity. "That man," said he, "is a crack-stepper--that is, he is superstitious and is trying to avoid stepping on a crack between the flagstones forming the sidewalk. There are dozens of persons who believe that to step on a crack is a sign that they will meet with bad luck. They soon get into the habit of regulating their steps so as to avoid the cracks, and they are unconscious of the peculiarity of their movements. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 03:04:20 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:04:20 EST Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes: ... Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: ----- 1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. ... ... ... ... Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. ... ... (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) ..., Stephens, Ann S. (Ann Sophia), (1810-1886): Ruby Gray's Strategy Stephens 1 match in 1 of 399 pages ... _CHAPTER XIV._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div1;q1=see%20you %20later;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl 1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-2372;node =Wright2-2372:17) * was able; but he pleaded great haste to be gone, and said I might tell you that he would be sure to see you later in the evening at your own house." / "Did he? Did he promise that?" / "Yes, ... ... Fleming, May Agnes, (1840-1880): A Mad Marriage Flemin 2 matches in 2 of 455 pages ... _PART THIRD._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div1;q1=see%20you% 20later;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl1 =1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0913;node= Wright2-0913:4) _CHAPTER XII._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div2;q1=see%20you %20later;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl 1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0913;node =Wright2-0913:4.12) * You have heard of me?I am the Prince Di Venturini. For you, madame," with a low bow, "I shall see you later." / Before either could speak he turned, made his way through the throng, and qui _CHAPTER XIV._ (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=simple;c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=div2;q1=see%20you %20later;cite1restrict =title;cite2restrict=title;cite3restrict=title;firstpubl1=1850;firstpubl2=1875;submit=Submit%20search;view=text;idno=Wright2-0913;node =Wright2-0913:4.14) * "Nothing, madame; but that he would see you later at the reception." / So madame knew he was coming, and was prepared for all chanc * ... ... ... ... We should not forget "C U L8er" in internet jargon. It's an early one. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _The Jargon File v2.3.1 03 JAN 1991, part 9 of 11_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/browse_frm/thread/d2c0424c82b24703/9c7fe7b32 c5c5591?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq =&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_ mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_don eTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#9c7fe7b32c5c5591) ... Are you OK? X THX Thanks (mutant of TNX) X CU l8er See you later (mutant of CU l8tr) XX See also , , . X X adj. ... _alt.folklore.computers_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers) - Jan 3 1991, 8:44 pm by Eric S. Raymond - 1 message - 1 author ... _Bif ?_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc/browse_frm/thread/15bcede7b1739488/2d2b476d34118eb3?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d &hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr= &as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_ma xy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#2d2b476d34118eb3) ... JEE I TINK I HEER HIM CUMMIN` HOME SO I MUST FINIS DIS LETTER!!! BY!!! SEE U L8ER ALLIG8ER!!! DID U GET IT?? SEE U LATER ALIGEITER!!! K00L HA!!! K0WABUNGA!!!! ... _news.misc_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc) - Oct 22 1990, 5:02 pm by BIFF JOHNSON - 7 messages - 5 authors ... _Testing chumly_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test/browse_frm/thread/7500668f75f26bd8/da34fcceeebee21c?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&n um=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=& as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27 &as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#da34fcceeebee21 c) Does is a toest, wat'n sonst ? No Reply, please c ya l8er, bye _sub.test_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test) - Aug 11 1990, 8:45 am by Walter Mildenberger - 1 message - 1 author ... _XmFileSelectionBox is buggy_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif/browse_frm/thread/7c37ddb3459b7f16/796ce252e097ce27?q=l8er&_done=/g roups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugro up=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_min y=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&& d#796ce252e097ce27) ... experience with this widget (I never used it before), but it is clear to me that this part of the Motif code has *never* been tested by the dev team :-( l8er ... _comp.windows.x.motif_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif) - Aug 2 1990, 8:48 am by Riccardo Pizzi - 3 messages - 3 authors ... _Anyone heard Of MORIA_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games/browse_frm/thread/eb08ca234d4ec767/c516f735de6825e9?q=l8er&_done=/groups? as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as _usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981 &as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#c516 f735de6825e9) ... extraordinarily well-ported game which DOES support the Amiga features instead of trying to emulate Unix's weak text version. L8er Paul _comp.sys.amiga.games_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games) - Jun 10 1990, 1:45 pm by Paul Douglas Stafford - 6 messages - 5 authors ... _Uruguay a cynic team? (was Re: Marlboro Cup results wanted)_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/17232d0d25eb37c/b5b73 c3943 e054fe?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b &as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&& _doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#b5b73c3943e054fe) ... PS Walter, what happened to Morena (ex-Penarol)? Are you a Nacional or a Penarol fan? Talk to you l8er... _rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) - Feb 13 1990, 11:00 pm by Ronald F Gruia - 15 messages - 9 authors ... _][e enhancement_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple/browse_frm/thread/6a013b668aa1d84c/1468459ff0a913f4?q=l8er&_done=/groups?as_q=l8er&nu m=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&a s_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=27& as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1992&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#1468459ff0a913f4 ) ... buffer, but of course you can send the next cmd to the modem while the prgm is still putting out to screen, which causes the buffer to overflow sooner or l8er ... _comp.sys.apple_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple) - Jun 25 1988, 6:23 am by Paul Nakada - 8 messages - 7 authors From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 03:13:44 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:13:44 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > > without > > extraneous characters inserted? > > Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies > are not Irish in origin? Hahahahaha! BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has at least been his recent pattern. Jesse Sheidlower From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:14:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:14:28 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: These two are not formulaic enough for me. So many Civil War diaries have been published that you'd think that such a simple formula would have appeared inthem many times, if it was current. As a formula. "So long!" was the formula Whitman favored in 1855. Maybe they didn't need another one till a generation later. Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something about "Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's three generations of Americans." "Generations" has been used loosely for a long time, but this must be the briefest specific interpretation yet since *all* Americans are included. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- =20 Ben Zimmer writes: ... Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: ----- 1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. ... ... ... ... Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I=20 wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. ... ... (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) ..., Stephens, Ann S. (Ann Sophia), (1810-1886): Ruby Gray's Strategy Stephens 1= =20 match in 1 of 399 pages ... _CHAPTER XIV._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv1;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u %20later;cite1restrict=3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;f= irstpubl 1=3D1850;firstpubl2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWrigh= t2-2372;node =3DWright2-2372:17) =20 * was able; but he pleaded great haste to be gone, and said I might=20 tell you that he would be sure to see you later in the evening at your own=20 house." / "Did he? Did he promise that?" / "Yes, =20 ... ... Fleming, May Agnes, (1840-1880): A Mad Marriage Flemin 2 matches in 2 of 45= 5=20 pages ... _PART THIRD._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv1;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u% 20later;cite1restrict=3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;fi= rstpubl1 =3D1850;firstpubl2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWright= 2-0913;node=3D Wright2-0913:4) =20 _CHAPTER XII._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv2;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u %20later;cite1restrict=3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;f= irstpubl 1=3D1850;firstpubl2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWrigh= t2-0913;node =3DWright2-0913:4.12) =20 * You have heard of me=E2=80=94I am the Prince Di Venturini. For you,=20= madame,"=20 with a low bow, "I shall see you later." / Before either could speak he=20 turned, made his way through the throng, and qui=20 _CHAPTER XIV._=20 (http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?type=3Dsimple;c=3Dwright2;= cc=3Dwright2;sid=3D584a34c82834398a5ac9f94271501145;rgn=3Ddiv2;q1=3Dsee%20yo= u %20later;cite1restrict =3Dtitle;cite2restrict=3Dtitle;cite3restrict=3Dtitle;firstpubl1=3D1850;first= publ2=3D1875;submit=3DSubmit%20search;view=3Dtext;idno=3DWright2-0913;node =3DWright2-0913:4.14) =20 * "Nothing, madame; but that he would see you later at the reception.= "=20 / So madame knew he was coming, and was prepared for all chanc =20 * ... ... ... ... We should not forget "C U L8er" in internet jargon. It's an early one. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) ... _The Jargon File v2.3.1 03 JAN 1991, part 9 of 11_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/browse_frm/threa= d/d2c0424c82b24703/9c7fe7b32 c5c5591?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&i= e=3DUTF-8&as_epq =3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as_usubject=3D&as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qd= r=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_ mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&= safe=3Doff&&_don eTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#9c7fe7b32c5c5591) =20 ... Are you OK? X THX Thanks (mutant of TNX) X CU l8er See you later =20 (mutant of CU l8tr) XX See also , , . X X adj. ... =20 _alt.folklore.computers_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers) - Jan 3 1991,=20= 8:44 pm by Eric S. Raymond - 1 message - 1 author=20 ... _Bif ?_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc/browse_frm/thread/15bcede7b17= 39488/2d2b476d34118eb3?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scorin= g=3Dd &hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as_usubject=3D&= as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D &as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&a= s_maxm=3D1&as_ma xy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#2d2b476d34118eb3) =20 ... JEE I TINK I HEER HIM CUMMIN` HOME SO I MUST FINIS DIS LETTER!!! BY!!!=20 SEE U L8ER ALLIG8ER!!! DID U GET IT?? SEE U LATER ALIGEITER!!! K00L HA!!! K0WABUNGA!!!= !=20 ... =20 _news.misc_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.misc) - Oct 22 1990,= =20 5:02 pm by BIFF JOHNSON - 7 messages - 5 authors ...=20 _Testing chumly_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test/browse_frm/thread/7500668f= 75f26bd8/da34fcceeebee21c?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&n um=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugrou= p=3D&as_usubject=3D& as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny= =3D1981&as_maxd=3D27 &as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#da34f= cceeebee21 c) =20 Does is a toest, wat'n sonst ? No Reply, please c ya l8er, bye =20 _sub.test_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hacknet.test) - Aug 11=20 1990, 8:45 am by Walter Mildenberger - 1 message - 1 author ... _XmFileSelectionBox is buggy_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif/browse_frm/thread/= 7c37ddb3459b7f16/796ce252e097ce27?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/g roups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq= =3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugro up=3D&as_usubject=3D&as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&= as_minm=3D1&as_min y=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBa= ck+to+Search&& d#796ce252e097ce27) =20 ... experience with this widget (I never used it before), but it is clear t= o=20 me that this part of the Motif code has *never* been tested by the dev team :-( l8e= r=20 ... =20 _comp.windows.x.motif_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.windows.x.motif) - Aug 2 1990, 8:= 48 am by Riccardo Pizzi - 3 messages - 3 authors ... _Anyone heard Of MORIA_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games/browse_frm/thread/= eb08ca234d4ec767/c516f735de6825e9?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups? as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_e= q=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as _usubject=3D&as_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm= =3D1&as_miny=3D1981 &as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Se= arch&&d#c516 f735de6825e9) =20 ... extraordinarily well-ported game which DOES support the Amiga features=20 instead of trying to emulate Unix's weak text version. L8er Paul =20 _comp.sys.amiga.games_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.games) - Jun 10 1990, 1= :45 pm by Paul Douglas Stafford - 6 messages - 5=20 authors ... _Uruguay a cynic team? (was Re: Marlboro Cup results wanted)_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_frm/thread/1723= 2d0d25eb37c/b5b73 c3943 e054fe?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&num=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie= =3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup=3D&as_usubject=3D&as_uauthors= =3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db &as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny=3D1981&as_maxd=3D27&as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1= 992&safe=3Doff&& _doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#b5b73c3943e054fe) =20 ... PS Walter, what happened to Morena (ex-Penarol)? Are you a Nacional or a Penarol fan? Talk to you l8er... =20 _rec.sport.soccer_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.soccer) -= =20 Feb 13 1990, 11:00 pm by Ronald F Gruia - 15 messages - 9 authors ... _][e enhancement_=20 (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple/browse_frm/thread/6a013b= 668aa1d84c/1468459ff0a913f4?q=3Dl8er&_done=3D/groups?as_q=3Dl8er&nu m=3D100&scoring=3Dd&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&as_epq=3D&as_oq=3D&as_eq=3D&as_ugroup= =3D&as_usubject=3D&a s_uauthors=3D&lr=3D&as_qdr=3D&as_drrb=3Db&as_mind=3D1&as_minm=3D1&as_miny= =3D1981&as_maxd=3D27& as_maxm=3D1&as_maxy=3D1992&safe=3Doff&&_doneTitle=3DBack+to+Search&&d#146845= 9ff0a913f4 ) =20 ... buffer, but of course you can send the next cmd to the modem while the=20 prgm is still putting out to screen, which causes the buffer to overflow sooner or l8er =20 ... =20 _comp.sys.apple_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple) - Ju= n=20 25 1988, 6:23 am by Paul Nakada - 8 messages - 7 authors =20 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jan 28 03:15:05 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:15:05 -0600 Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies Message-ID: FWIW, Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologizing no doubt contains many "false positives." But I'll say this for his efforts: If there are in fact any words currently regarded as being of unknown origin but in fact deriving from Irish, Cassidy will likely find them. At that point I'll very willingly overlook all the suggestions which didn't pan out and rejoice at the few which did. "Kibosh" may be one such item (let's wait and see), and perhaps his suggestion on the card game faro deserves further consideration too. Gerald Cohen From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 03:15:14 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:15:14 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) In-Reply-To: <200501272204.3741f9abbd62@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 >Ben Zimmer writes: >... >Here are a few more early cites, suggesting that "see you later" came to >be recognized as an idiomatic American sendoff in the 1880s: > >----- >1881 _Bucks Co. Gazette_ (Pa.) 10 Feb. 1/3 "Tain't six -- that's a fact," >said one of the young fellows. "Come along, boys; Miss Dustin's right. See >you later." With this and a laugh they walked away. >... >... >... >... >Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I=20 >wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. >... >... > > Just wanted to thank everyone for the help on this one. My novel's set in 1889, so it looks like I'm okay using this phrase. You've all been a great help! Patti Kurtz Minot State University Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:19:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:19:41 -0800 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Jesse, I assume you're checking your Irish dictionary and your team of experts if indicated. Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point. If it is, then shame on me. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > > without > > extraneous characters inserted? > > Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies > are not Irish in origin? Hahahahaha! BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has at least been his recent pattern. Jesse Sheidlower __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 03:20:51 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:20:51 -0600 Subject: Candy stripers Message-ID: Okay, a bit off topic, but does anyone know if they even still use the term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the east)? If not, what do they call them? Thanks again! Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:21:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:21:06 -0800 Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies Message-ID: But he hasn't yet responded to my request to look into "palooka." JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW, Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologizing no doubt contains many "false positives." But I'll say this for his efforts: If there are in fact any words currently regarded as being of unknown origin but in fact deriving from Irish, Cassidy will likely find them. At that point I'll very willingly overlook all the suggestions which didn't pan out and rejoice at the few which did. "Kibosh" may be one such item (let's wait and see), and perhaps his suggestion on the card game faro deserves further consideration too. Gerald Cohen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 03:35:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:35:02 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw you!" Pithy. Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion suddenly became plausible. To me. The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this interesting suggestion." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 28 04:10:49 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:10:49 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: Jonathan L writes: >Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something about >"Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's three generations >of Americans." "Generations" has been used loosely for a long time, but >this must be the briefest specific interpretation yet since *all* >Americans are included.< ~~~~~~~ All the talk about Carson has me somewhat bemused. It is taken for granted that Everyone knows Johnny Carson. I don't. I "know" -- as a bit of rote -- that he was the host of a tv program (Late Night?) for many years. I wouldn't recognize his picture if I saw it. We never had a tv until about 15 years ago, and I do know that there are lots of real, live, quite normal, ordinary people who live without tv. Moreover, it is even possible to have a tv and not watch some particular program. There are known to be some Canadians, even, who don't watch Hockey Night in Canada (that is, in years when the season isn't cancelled)! Strange, but true. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 04:45:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:45:46 -0800 Subject: "See You Later" Message-ID: You know, I never watched his 11:15 p.m.-to-whenever show either. I felt obligated to tune in for the incredibly hyped and touted finale but quit early because it didn't seem funny or interesting or much of anything. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: "See You Later" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan L writes: >Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something about >"Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's three generations >of Americans." "Generations" has been used loosely for a long time, but >this must be the briefest specific interpretation yet since *all* >Americans are included.< ~~~~~~~ All the talk about Carson has me somewhat bemused. It is taken for granted that Everyone knows Johnny Carson. I don't. I "know" -- as a bit of rote -- that he was the host of a tv program (Late Night?) for many years. I wouldn't recognize his picture if I saw it. We never had a tv until about 15 years ago, and I do know that there are lots of real, live, quite normal, ordinary people who live without tv. Moreover, it is even possible to have a tv and not watch some particular program. There are known to be some Canadians, even, who don't watch Hockey Night in Canada (that is, in years when the season isn't cancelled)! Strange, but true. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 05:13:53 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:13:53 EST Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) Message-ID: I've been looking at this book of children's rhymes, mostly jump-rope rhymes. It's a nice collection. Fred Shapiro must include some of these. ... ... RIMBLES: A BOOK OF CHILDREN'S CLASSIC GAMES, RHYMES, SONGS AND SAYINGS by Patricia Evans Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1961 (copyright 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961) ... ... Pg. 31: Acka-backa, soda cracker, Does your father chew tobacco? Yes. No. Maybe So. Ye. No, etc. ... Pg. 33: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the ladies How to dance. First the heel And then the toe Left foot forward Out you go. ... Pg. 37: I love coffee I love tea I love the boys And the boys love me. ... Pg. 37: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the girls The hula-hula dance. First on the heel, Then on the toe, Round and round and round you go. Salute to the Captain Bow to the Queen And turn your back On the dirty submarine. ... Pg. 131: I'm rubber and you're glue. it bounces off me and it sticks on you. ... Pg. 132: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire, Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. ... Pg. 135: No more pencils, no more books, No more teachers' dirty looks. ... Pg. 139: Look up. Look down. Your pants is falling down. ... Pg. 142: Goof morning to you, You belong in the zoo. You look like a monkey And act like one too. ... Pg. 147: Scairdy cat, scairdy cat, Don't know what you're looking at. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE & PROQUEST) ... ... _Jump-Rope Jingles; In the spring a little girl's fancy turns to an old sidewalk sport. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=91094973&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106883417&clientId=6588 2) By KATHLEEN F. McDOWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 14, 1946. p. 109 (1 page) ... Charlie Chaplin went to France To teach the ladies how to dance. Heel and toe and away we go. Heel and toe and away we go. Bow to the captain. Kneel to the Queen. And give a salute to the big Marine. ... ... _Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2g8MtMfQZCKyMc1c9B3RWiMnyVnYmGViGw==) Wednesday, April 15, 1925 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) ...the skIppIng. Her verse LOVE COFFEE, I LOVE TEA I LOVE the boys, and the boys.. Pg. 6, col. 3: THOSE "Flaming Youth" tendencies being manifest in the present generation will be nothing compared to the generation that follows, if early indications bear any weight. Three small girls at Gastman school were jumping rope--a long rope, and the girl at one end was chanting cadence for the one in the middle who was doing the skipping. Her verse was: "I love coffee, I love tea, I love the boys, and the boys love me How many boys are stuck on me? One, two, three, four, five, six--" The little miss whose "turn" it was proved to have sixteen ardent suitors. ... ... _Jackie Crams on Knowledge of Holy Land_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=361464752&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=H NP&TS=1106888179&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 8, 1924. p. 39 (1 page) ... Soon the boys and girls of Jackie Coogan's age will be singing the annual vacation anthem--"No more history, no more books, no more teachers' sassy looks." ... ... _ Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2l3oysEnhf/RIQ7ZpP8KnKd+C/D8AbE0ug==) Thursday, June 05, 1924 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+no+more+books+and+no+more+teachers+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+no+more+books+and+no+more+teach ers+AND) ...MORE pencils; NO MORE BOOKS; NO MORE TEACHERS' saucy is theory heard.....to decide the question in Saginaw AND MORE time will be needed for MORE.. Pg. 16, col. 3: "No more pencils; no more books; no more teachers' saucy looks," is the cry heard today from the school children. Why? Because the last day of school, that day so welcome to boys and girls from six to eighteen, has arrived. ... ... _Other 9 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=505192962&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106888559&c lientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 20, 1953. p. 16 (1 page) ... Vivian Volk's "modern" jump-rope song [Aug. 12] was in daily use at Parkside school [69th st. and East End av.] back in the early 1920s. Another variation was /// my mother, your mother, Loved across the way; Fifteen and fourteen East Broadway. Every night they had a fight, And this is what they'd day: Acka-backa soda cracka, acka-backa boo! Acka-backa soda cracka, out goes you! Gloria C. Marsteller From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 05:53:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's correspondent's point. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. -Wilson Gray On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" > comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that > sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested > Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar > synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an > expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned > and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian > especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply > meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw > you!" Pithy. > > Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic > immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion > suddenly became plausible. To me. > > The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this > interesting suggestion." > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 06:25:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:25:13 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Jesse, I assume you're checking your Irish dictionary and your team of > experts if indicated. > Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point. > > If it is, then shame on me. > > JL "Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point." I'm standing with you foursquare on this one. I've always felt that the decades-long attempt to connect the colored American with the devil's music is totally misplaced. Clearly, Irish jigs, reels, and such like are the true source of such cacophony. A more recent example is the recording of the song "Colours" by the Irish singer Donovan. Notice the oddly-rhythmic drumming that is heard as part of the background music, not to mention the singer's own particular method of playing the guitar. It's a revelation! And then there's the fact that, for an Irish-American former colleague of mine, one David Beach ("Beach" doesn't strike me as being an Irish name, but, since I found out that the "obviously" Teutonic name, "Hindelang," is of Irish provenance, I've learned to reserve judgment on such points), the word "jazz" was a living, active part of his normal vocabulary for that for which others would substitute "fuck." -Wilson Gray > > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> >>> Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive >>> without >>> extraneous characters inserted? >> >> Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some >> etymologies >> are not Irish in origin? > > Hahahahaha! > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has > at least been his recent pattern. > > Jesse Sheidlower > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 28 04:43:43 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:43:43 -0500 Subject: Candy stripers In-Reply-To: <41F9AF93.3060702@netscape.net> Message-ID: >... does anyone know if they even still use the >term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the >east)? I've heard it in the last decade. Not often, though. >If not, what do they call them? 'Volunteers', in my limited experience. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 06:36:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:36:13 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > >Wright American Fiction has one cite from 1869 and several from 1875. I >wouldn't date "see you later" later than 1875. [...] >* was able; but he pleaded great haste to be gone, and said I might >tell you that he would be sure to see you later in the evening at your >own house." / "Did he? Did he promise that?" / "Yes, [...] >* You have heard of me -- I am the Prince Di Venturini. For you, >madame," with a low bow, "I shall see you later." / Before either >could speak he turned, made his way through the throng, and qui [...] >* "Nothing, madame; but that he would see you later at the reception. Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >These two are not formulaic enough for me. So many Civil War diaries have >been published that you'd think that such a simple formula would have >appeared inthem many times, if it was current. As a formula. I checked Alexander Street's "Civil War: Letters and Diaries" database, and the only example of the collocation "see you later" was in a letter after the war, in 1869-- also lacking formulaicity like Barry's examples: Letter from John Milton Hay to Edmund Clarence Stedman February 11, 1869 I hope to see you later in the Spring. "See you soon" has numerous attestations in the CWLD database but only in phrases like "hoping to see you soon". But I think the standalone phrase "see you soon" may have become idiomatic some time after "see you later"-- I don't find anything on N-archive predating OED2's 1891 cite. (And then there's "see you real soon", c. 1955. Proquest and N-archive actually show that catchphrase appearing in ads for Safeway in 1954, a year before "The Mickey Mouse Club" premiered.) --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jan 28 04:32:07 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:32:07 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <20050128033503.58804.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is "khuy", in the expression "khuy voyne" ("f*ck war" or so) on the famous T-shirts of the "Russian teen faux-lesbian" singing duo Tatu. Supposedly these T-shirts appeared on US TV, through oversight and/or ignorance of Russian. http://taty-tatu.org/breve.php3?id_breve=6 -- Doug Wilson From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 07:48:18 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:48:18 EST Subject: The Sanas and Teas (heat) of Fizz, Fizzle, and Sizzle Message-ID: More notes on the Irish and Gaelic word Teas (pron. jass or chass) meaning Heat. . The Sanas of Fizz, Fizzle, and Sizzle. When something fizzes or fizzles it loses its Teas (pron. jass or chass) or Heat, Highest Temperature, Excitement, and High Spirit. The Oxford Dictionary ?s Fizz is imitative and its fizzle is literally a silent fart. Fizz, fiz, make a hissing sound, as of effervescence; 17th century; imitative, compare fizzle. Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, p. 359. Fizzle, break wind silently 16th C.; (orig. from US) come to a lame conclusion, 18th C.; from fizz (but this is recorded later) + LE, cf. fist. (ODEE, p. 359) The Barnhart Etymological Dictionary also opts for the fizz of the silent fart, but with a little Middle English imitation. Fizz v. 1655, move with a hiss or a sputter; imitative of the sound, and perhaps related to fizzle. ?n. 1812, a hissing or sputtering sound, from the verb. Barnhart, p. 386. Barnhart's fizzle is an old fart and an ancient fist. Fizzle v. About 1532, to break wind without noise, probably an alteration of obsolete fist (Middle Eng., break wind, 1440) + le, frequentative suffix. The meaning of make a hissing sound or sputtering is first recorded in 1859...in American English.... Barnhart, p. 386. The Irish and Gaelic Sanas of Fizz, Fizzle and Sizzle Like a verbal star, fizz and fizzle are perpetually losing their Teas (pron. chass or jass), or heat, excitement, ardor, and high spirit. Fizz F? theas, fa theas ( pron. fay has; the aspirated T is silent) Less than highest heat, warmth, passion, ardor, and excitement F?, F?, faoi : less than, under (in all senses), low. Teas (aspirated to Theas, pron. has). heat, hotness, warmth, degree of hotness, high temperature, passion, excitement, ardor, fever. Hottest, highest stage. The Gaelic Phrase Fizzle Fizzes Forever.. Fizzle F? theas uile (fay has ila) Less than all heat, vigor, passion, ardor, or excitement. F?, F?, faoi : less than, under (in all senses), low Teas, aspirated to Theas, still means heat, hotness, warmth, degree of hotness, high temperature, passion, excitement, ardor, high spirits. Hottest, highest stage. Uile: all, wholly. Fizzles?s hot jazzy cousin is Sizzle. With sizzle the Barnhart again opts for "imitative." But of course it is a pure English imitation. Sizzle...to make a hissing sound as fat does when frying. 1603, to burn or scorch so as to produce a hissing sound; perhaps a frequentative verb form of Middle English sissen make a hissing sound, buzz (before 1300), of imitative origin. The sense of making a hissing sound when frying is first recorded. in English before 1825. ?n. 1823, in Edward Moor?s Suffolk Words and Phrases; from the verb. Barnhart p. 1913 The Irish and Gaelic Sizzle holds at its core the perpetual heat, passion, excitement, and ardor of Teas (jazz or chass.) Sizzle Sa theas uile (pron. sa has ila ; T is aspirated) In a state of all heat, highest temperature, excitement, passion, ardor. Sa: In ( a state or condition of) Theas (pron. has): heat, vigor, passion, ardor, or excitement. . Uile: all, whole. The Sizzle of Teas (pron. chass, jass) holds the spirit of jazz (teas, heat) and gives off heat even when it fizzles. On the other hand when you easy fry chicken in New Orleans you don't sizzle it, you fricasee (friocadh samh) the boid (bird.) Friocadh (pron fricah): frying Sa/mh (pron saah), easy. Friocadh sa/mh (pron. Fricah saah) Easy frying. . Daniel Cassidy The Irish Studies Program New College of California San Francisco 1.28.05 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 08:03:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:52 EST Subject: "Not just happen, but made to happen" (FDR?) Message-ID: >From Google Answers. FDR pre-WWI sounds bogus. ... ... ... (GOOGLE ANSWERS) ... _http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=464460_ (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=464460) ... Subject: Quotation Category: _Reference, Education and News _ (http://answers.google.com/answers/browse?catid=1500) Asked by: pakorrwk-ga List Price: $2.50 Posted: 27 Jan 2005 14:28 PST Expires: 26 Feb 2005 14:28 PST Question ID: 464460 Looking for the original author of the quotation "Things do not merely happen, they are made to happen." It has been attributed to John F. Kennedy but I wrote it down in my diary in the early 1940s so I think it was either Thoreau or Franklin Roosevelt. Thank you for your help. ... ... Subject: Re: Quotation From: _pinkfreud-ga_ (http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785) on 27 Jan 2005 14:54 PST Here a similar quote is attributed to Franklin Delano Roosevelt: "To those who believe that a chaotic world is a more plausible explanation for wierd [sic] happenings, I can only point to the following remark by F.D.R. before the first world war: 'Things in politics do not just happen; they are made to happen...I will be Secretary of the Navy, governor of New York, and president, in that order'. And he was." _http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.misc/msg/39533ca88e86b980? dmode=source_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.misc/msg/39533ca88e86b980?dmode=source) ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _de Returns as a Prodigal. Virtues in a Rose Pink Romantic Comedy. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=408221831&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PR OD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106898631&clientId=65882) Burns Mantle. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 25, 1908. p. H1 (1 page) ... It has the common fault of similar plays of never suggesting reality in its emotions or its scenes. Things happen because they are made to happen. ... ... _Behind The Line With DICK HYLAND_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=409112721&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS= 1106898817&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 25, 1940. p. 10 (1 page) ... In short, on a football field there is no such thing as coincidence, happy or otherwise. Things do not "just happen," they are MADE to happen, one team does a job of patsying the other gents. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2vzHp//zVGGJ+IXTt4mYTlc3QLE6cFF6Yw==) Tuesday, February 04, 1913 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+do+not+just+happen+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+do+not+just+happen+AND) ...Blue Tag Price. V Things DO NOT "JUST HAPPEN But are the result of the.....confined to his bed at his farm-house JUST south of the city, on the DOty.. ... _Coshocton Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Rvj45z7SpqiKID/6NLMW2onVueaCXTVdWG87BOSLSVbHiBf35r4+zA==) Monday, December 15, 1919 _Coshocton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:coshocton+do+not+just+happen+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+do+not+just+happen+AND) ...Things Are Brought About. They DO NOT JUST HAPPEN. This Applies To Accumu.....comment from the depositors that it is JUST like finding that much JUST since.. From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Fri Jan 28 10:06:29 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:06:29 EST Subject: Strumpet, hussy not such bad names Message-ID: Strumpet, hussy not such bad names SEATTLE (UPI) -- A Washington state legislator wants a 1905 law forbidding calling a woman a strumpet or hussy removed from state law, the New York Times said Wednesday. Under the state's "Slander of a Woman" law from 1909, it is a misdemeanor to slander any female older than 12 -- other than prostitutes -- by uttering "any false or defamatory words or language which shall injure or impair the reputation of any such female for virtue or chastity or which shall expose her to hatred, contempt or ridicule." The statute was upheld by the State Supreme Court in 1914, which researchers say was the last time the law was before the courts. But Democratic state Sen. Jeanne Kohl-Welles believes it's time to banish the old statute, and has filed a bill to repeal it. Kohl-Welles admits there are more pressing priorities facing a state with a $1.8 billion deficit, but said the old law is nonetheless a vestige of sexism and an unconstitutional affront to free speech. >From another list. Jerry E. Kane Los Angeles, CA From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 10:55:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:55:24 -0500 Subject: rocksteady (1967), reggae (1968) Message-ID: Jamaica's _Daily Gleaner_ is obviously a good source for early cites of "rocksteady" and "reggae" (though Newspaperarchive lacks the editions from the early '60s necessary to antedate "ska")... * rocksteady, n. (OED2 1969) 1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 4 Mar. 6/7 (advt.) Tonite it's "rock steady" night at the Ocean View Club ... Dance to the soul "rock steady" beat of the Virtues. 1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 18 Jun. 8/5 This column is no place to debate who "originated" the rock steady rhythm and probably, like many musical phenomena, it actually evolved out of several different circumstances. However, Hopeton Lewis personally wrote and sang several of the most popular of the rock steady hits. * rocksteady, v. (not in OED) 1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 9 Aug. 2/6 The majority of people therefore just sipped beer and watched the few who had elbow room enough to rock-steady. * reggae, n. (OED2 has Toots & the Maytal's 1968 song title "Do the Reggay"; 1969 for "reggae" spelling) 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 7 Sep. 7/5 (advt.) Come do this brand new dance - the reggae. 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 27 Sep. 7/1 (advt.) Tonight! It's reggae time when the exciting Wildcats present a pre-opening fun-filled dance at The Road House. 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 25 Oct. 24/3 The cleared area for dancing was easily filled with the more elderly couples who danced the Calypso their way and even had a go at the Ska. One gentleman was brave enough to attempt the Reggae-reggae. 1968 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 22 Nov. 10/3 Commenting on the rendition of excerpts from Bizet's "Carmen" by the Alpha girls, Mr. Wynter, in a light vein, said that if there were any composers of "The Reggae" present then he would be sure that "Carmen" would soon be put to the Reggae beat. * reggae, v. (not in OED) 1969 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 8 Jun. 8/6 All like we, Miss, we have to reggae for we poor. 1970 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 2 Jan. 9 (caption) Here guests reggaed and moonwalked to the music of the Caribs. 1970 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 24 Jul. 46/6 Sharon Emanuel drew heavy applause and laughter from the audience for reggaeing her way through her piece. (The penultimate cite also beats Michael Jackson's "moonwalk" by about 13 years.) --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 11:14:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:14:24 -0500 Subject: rocksteady (1967), reggae (1968) Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:55:24 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >* rocksteady, n. (OED2 1969) > >1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 4 Mar. 6/7 (advt.) Tonite it's >"rock steady" night at the Ocean View Club ... Dance to the soul "rock >steady" beat of the Virtues. > >1967 _Daily Gleaner_ (Kingston, Jamaica) 18 Jun. 8/5 This column is no >place to debate who "originated" the rock steady rhythm and probably, like >many musical phenomena, it actually evolved out of several different >circumstances. However, Hopeton Lewis personally wrote and sang several of >the most popular of the rock steady hits. And Leonard Feather wrote about it early on in the LA Times: 1967 _Los Angeles Times_ 2 Jul. (Calendar) 6/3 Organized 10 years ago, the unit [sc. Byron Lee's Dragonaires] ... is currently dedicated to the propagation of a new gimmick, something called Rock Steady. Like most short-lived crazes of this kind, the term refers both to a musical beat (part Latin, part R&B) and a dance that matches it. --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 28 11:21:54 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:21:54 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050127232558.02f7d2f0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: There is also the surprise or amazement "Hooooeee" in AmerEng (Hooooeeee; look at the size of that sumbitch.')). It made an old country song ('Hoooeeeee, it was the Tennessee Ghost,' sung by Tennessee Enie Ford?) very popular in Poland. Chuj (as it is spelled in Polish) is a very good East-West dialect test. The /ch/ of Eastern Polish preserves a [x] pronunciation, and is distinct from /h/, but the contrast is lost in Western Polish, and one can even see badly spelled graffiti - "huj" in public places alongside the more elegantly spelled "chuj." In the East, of course, where the phoneme is intact, it is always "chuj." dInIs >Here is "khuy", in the expression "khuy voyne" ("f*ck war" or so) on the >famous T-shirts of the "Russian teen faux-lesbian" singing duo Tatu. >Supposedly these T-shirts appeared on US TV, through oversight and/or >ignorance of Russian. > >http://taty-tatu.org/breve.php3?id_breve=6 > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 13:19:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:19:00 -0800 Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) Message-ID: My grandparents told me (1955) that their little friends used to say the "No more pencils..." rhyme in the '90s in NYC, exactly as given in Barry's post. Both their versions had "dirty looks." On the rare occasions when my grandmother used the word "saucy" in conversation she pronounced it "sassy." I don't believe my grandfather even used the word. (Usually they used the synonyms "fresh" or "smart.") JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been looking at this book of children's rhymes, mostly jump-rope rhymes. It's a nice collection. Fred Shapiro must include some of these. ... ... RIMBLES: A BOOK OF CHILDREN'S CLASSIC GAMES, RHYMES, SONGS AND SAYINGS by Patricia Evans Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1961 (copyright 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961) ... ... Pg. 31: Acka-backa, soda cracker, Does your father chew tobacco? Yes. No. Maybe So. Ye. No, etc. ... Pg. 33: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the ladies How to dance. First the heel And then the toe Left foot forward Out you go. ... Pg. 37: I love coffee I love tea I love the boys And the boys love me. ... Pg. 37: Charlie Chaplin Went to France To teach the girls The hula-hula dance. First on the heel, Then on the toe, Round and round and round you go. Salute to the Captain Bow to the Queen And turn your back On the dirty submarine. ... Pg. 131: I'm rubber and you're glue. it bounces off me and it sticks on you. ... Pg. 132: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire, Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. ... Pg. 135: No more pencils, no more books, No more teachers' dirty looks. ... Pg. 139: Look up. Look down. Your pants is falling down. ... Pg. 142: Goof morning to you, You belong in the zoo. You look like a monkey And act like one too. ... Pg. 147: Scairdy cat, scairdy cat, Don't know what you're looking at. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE & PROQUEST) ... ... _Jump-Rope Jingles; In the spring a little girl's fancy turns to an old sidewalk sport. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=91094973&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106883417&clientId=6588 2) By KATHLEEN F. McDOWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 14, 1946. p. 109 (1 page) ... Charlie Chaplin went to France To teach the ladies how to dance. Heel and toe and away we go. Heel and toe and away we go. Bow to the captain. Kneel to the Queen. And give a salute to the big Marine. ... ... _Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2g8MtMfQZCKyMc1c9B3RWiMnyVnYmGViGw==) Wednesday, April 15, 1925 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+I+love+coffee+I+love+tea) ...the skIppIng. Her verse LOVE COFFEE, I LOVE TEA I LOVE the boys, and the boys.. Pg. 6, col. 3: THOSE "Flaming Youth" tendencies being manifest in the present generation will be nothing compared to the generation that follows, if early indications bear any weight. Three small girls at Gastman school were jumping rope--a long rope, and the girl at one end was chanting cadence for the one in the middle who was doing the skipping. Her verse was: "I love coffee, I love tea, I love the boys, and the boys love me How many boys are stuck on me? One, two, three, four, five, six--" The little miss whose "turn" it was proved to have sixteen ardent suitors. ... ... _Jackie Crams on Knowledge of Holy Land_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=361464752&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=H NP&TS=1106888179&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 8, 1924. p. 39 (1 page) ... Soon the boys and girls of Jackie Coogan's age will be singing the annual vacation anthem--"No more history, no more books, no more teachers' sassy looks." ... ... _ Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2l3oysEnhf/RIQ7ZpP8KnKd+C/D8AbE0ug==) Thursday, June 05, 1924 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+no+more+books+and+no+more+teachers+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+no+more+books+and+no+more+teach ers+AND) ...MORE pencils; NO MORE BOOKS; NO MORE TEACHERS' saucy is theory heard.....to decide the question in Saginaw AND MORE time will be needed for MORE.. Pg. 16, col. 3: "No more pencils; no more books; no more teachers' saucy looks," is the cry heard today from the school children. Why? Because the last day of school, that day so welcome to boys and girls from six to eighteen, has arrived. ... ... _Other 9 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=505192962&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106888559&c lientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 20, 1953. p. 16 (1 page) ... Vivian Volk's "modern" jump-rope song [Aug. 12] was in daily use at Parkside school [69th st. and East End av.] back in the early 1920s. Another variation was /// my mother, your mother, Loved across the way; Fifteen and fourteen East Broadway. Every night they had a fight, And this is what they'd day: Acka-backa soda cracka, acka-backa boo! Acka-backa soda cracka, out goes you! Gloria C. Marsteller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 13:37:58 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:37:58 -0600 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth ministries web site. But it might be of interest: http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 28 13:39:45 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:39:45 -0500 Subject: monetized? Message-ID: as in "... these superstars are finally doing something productive bysides spinning off crap to shareholders when it should have been monetized ..." Today was the first time I had seen monetized (on a yahoo finance board). Has it been around long? Bethany From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Fri Jan 28 13:43:09 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:43:09 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this query. Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jan 28 13:42:56 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:42:56 -0600 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: <200501280838.2041fa40393af@rly-na03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: I wrote: >ironically posted by a Christina youth >ministries web site. > Too early in the morning. Of course, I mean "Christian" >But it might be of interest: > >http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > >Patti Kurtz >Minot State University >-- > >Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > >Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > >Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > >Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 28 13:45:14 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:45:14 +0000 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: <200501281338.j0SDc1BI032570@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 28/1/05 1:37 pm, Patti J. Kurtz at kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET wrote: > Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a > "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth > ministries web site. But it might be of interest: Christina youth ministries? Next they'll be telling us God is female neil at typog.co.uk From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Jan 28 13:48:33 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:48:33 -0500 Subject: Candy stripers Message-ID: Candy-stripers exist in my experience. I've been to hospitals in the Toronto area since 1964. "candy-striper" is an entry in the Concise Oxford (2002). The Canadian Oxford (1998) has it without the hyphen; I haven't checked the new edition though. t.m.p. www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patti J. Kurtz" To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:20 PM Subject: Candy stripers > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" > Subject: Candy stripers > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Okay, a bit off topic, but does anyone know if they even still use the > term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the > east)? If not, what do they call them? > > Thanks again! > > Patti Kurtz > Minot State University > -- > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > > Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 13:52:17 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:52:17 -0500 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 08:39:45AM -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > as in "... these superstars are finally doing something productive bysides > spinning off crap to shareholders when it should have been monetized ..." > > Today was the first time I had seen monetized (on a yahoo finance board). > Has it been around long? OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending on which sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jan 28 13:55:13 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:55:13 -0500 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: <20050128135217.GB1680@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending on which sense. Thanks - I'll check the OED entry. Is its use today relatively rare? Or do I just not move in the monetized circles? Bethany From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Fri Jan 28 13:58:51 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:58:51 -0500 Subject: Fw: Candy stripers Message-ID: Forgot to add the Concise Oxford (correctly I believe) has "a female volunteer nurse in a hospital." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Paikeday" To: "American Dialect Society" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Candy stripers > Candy-stripers exist in my experience. I've been to hospitals in the > Toronto area since 1964. "candy-striper" is an entry in the Concise Oxford > (2002). The Canadian Oxford (1998) has it without the hyphen; I haven't > checked the new edition though. > > t.m.p. > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patti J. Kurtz" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:20 PM > Subject: Candy stripers > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" >> Subject: Candy stripers >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Okay, a bit off topic, but does anyone know if they even still use the >> term "candy stripers" for the hospital volunteers (particularly in the >> east)? If not, what do they call them? >> >> Thanks again! >> >> Patti Kurtz >> Minot State University >> -- >> >> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? >> >> >> >> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. >> >> >> >> Freeman - It's called dedication. >> >> >> >> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. >> > From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 14:27:13 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:27:13 -0800 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a word I've heard but not often, and the only use I've heard has been in connection with governments monetizing their debts by printing increasingly (decreasingly?) worthless money, as in pre-WWII Germany. The sentence Bethany posted doesn't really make sense to me, as I understand the meaning of the word. JIM --- "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > >OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending > on which sense. > > Thanks - I'll check the OED entry. Is its use today > relatively rare? Or do > I just not move in the monetized circles? > > Bethany > ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 14:33:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:33:31 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: Thanks, Wilson. [xui] it is, despite the oddly Chinese look. Never missing a chance to make history leap to life, I offer the following early ex. of "swearing like a trooper": "I then chanced to tread upon the Foot of a Female Quaker, to all outward Appearance, but was surprised to hear her cry out D-------n you, you Son of a B----------- upon which I immediately rebuked her, when all of a sudden resuming her character, Verily, says she, I was to blame; but thou hast bruised me sorely. A few moments after this Adventure, I had like to been knocked down by a Shepherdess for having run my Elbow a little inadvertently into one of her sides. She swore like a Trooper and threatned [sic] me with a very masculine Voice. ---------------"Lucifer," "To Nestor Ironsides, Esq.," in The Guardian No. 454 (2: 262) (London, 1714). This was at a high-toned masquerade ball. It beats OED by 25 years. "Trooper" itself seems not to be findable before 1640. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's correspondent's point. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. -Wilson Gray On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" > comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that > sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested > Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar > synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an > expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned > and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian > especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply > meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw > you!" Pithy. > > Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic > immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion > suddenly became plausible. To me. > > The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this > interesting suggestion." > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 15:03:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:03:37 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is also the surprise or amazement "Hooooeee" in AmerEng (Hooooeeee; look at the size of that sumbitch.')). It made an old country song ('Hoooeeeee, it was the Tennessee Ghost,' sung by Tennessee Enie Ford?) very popular in Poland. Chuj (as it is spelled in Polish) is a very good East-West dialect test. The /ch/ of Eastern Polish preserves a [x] pronunciation, and is distinct from /h/, but the contrast is lost in Western Polish, and one can even see badly spelled graffiti - "huj" in public places alongside the more elegantly spelled "chuj." In the East, of course, where the phoneme is intact, it is always "chuj." dInIs >Here is "khuy", in the expression "khuy voyne" ("f*ck war" or so) on the >famous T-shirts of the "Russian teen faux-lesbian" singing duo Tatu. >Supposedly these T-shirts appeared on US TV, through oversight and/or >ignorance of Russian. > >http://taty-tatu.org/breve.php3?id_breve=6 > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 15:05:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:05:41 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Looks interesting. Thanx Patti. JL "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" Subject: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth ministries web site. But it might be of interest: http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp Patti Kurtz Minot State University -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 15:25:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:25:17 -0800 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of "cawed" and "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All these of course are still monophthongs in my speech, but after muttering them aloud even I can hear what you're talking about. Have never thought about this before. JL Terry Irons wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Terry Irons Subject: Low Back Vowel Query ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this query. Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM Fri Jan 28 15:25:19 2005 From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:25:19 -0700 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: <200501280727601.SM01424@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/28/2005 7:27 AM James Smith wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's a word I've heard but not often, and the only use > I've heard has been in connection with governments > monetizing their debts by printing increasingly > (decreasingly?) worthless money, as in pre-WWII > Germany. The term is often used among folks in Web-related businesses, who might want to profit from their Web site's popularity by "monetizing their eyeballs." I suppose the use is roughly synonymous with "cash in". -- Steve Clason From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 28 15:36:10 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:36:10 -0800 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: <20050128142713.43342.qmail@web50602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > It's a word I've heard but not often, and the only use > I've heard has been in connection with governments > monetizing their debts by printing increasingly > (decreasingly?) worthless money, as in pre-WWII > Germany. The sentence Bethany posted doesn't really > make sense to me, as I understand the meaning of the > word. It's very common in the business world in a slightly different sense than that given in the OED (whose definition and examples focus on debt and financial instruments), meaning to find a way to charge money for something that had previously been provided for free, to convert a "cost center" into a "P and L" (profit and loss center). This appears to be the sense used in the quote at the start of the thread. Another example: "I'd like to answer once and for all the question, 'how does Sun monetize Java?' with a historical reference: the same way GE and General Motors have monetized standard rails, Vodafone monetizes GSM, banks monetize ATM networks, and oil and gas companies monetize the fact that my car can use 'gas.'" 12 July 2004, http://sys-con.com/story/?storyid=46265&DE=1 --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 15:44:17 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:44:17 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: What's the diacritical marks in quote starts****************** articles about baseball by Irish American reporter Edward aEURoe ScoopaEUR? Gleeson. quote ends*************** I read that as if quote marks " " (how does one put quote marks in quote marks unambiguously?) were replaced by the strings aEURoe or aUER? And this one quote starts************** oh, whataEUR(tm)s the use? quote ends***************** looks like an apostrophe, denoting a conjunction, has been replaced by aEUR(tm) . If AOL can't handle the basic quote mark and apostrophe, then "the correct AOL setting" is pretty bad. I get the impression that some folks on this list find Daniel's posts repetitious, if not tiresome. It's pretty easy to hit the delete key. I just think his welcome would be less worn-out if he used some sort of standard English ASCII code to post. I know I'd be more likely to read his stuff if it wasn't an effort to translate it. They guy works for a university -- can't he post from their account? (And yes, I sometimes find myself glossing over some of Barry's posts for the same reason. This is not a criticism of their content -- just a statement that for whatever reason (and clearly the reason has to do with AOL), it is a pain to figure out what is being said.) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Erik Hoover > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:37 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > > There aren't any extraneous characters in Mr. Cassidy's post. > He is using the correct AOL setting. The list serve > software is not able to render the necessary diacriticals > correctly. It happens when Barry writes 'nicoise' using the > accurate spelling, too. > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 16:03:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:03:51 -0600 Subject: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "See You Later" (1869, 1875); C U L8er (1990) > > > Speaking of which, a TV talking head yesterday said something > about "Johnny Carson was a favorite for thirty years. That's > three generations of Americans." "Generations" has been used > loosely for a long time, but this must be the briefest > specific interpretation yet since *all* Americans are included. Agree that this is lazy writing, but my grandparents, my parents and I all were Johnny-watchers. So three generations isn't too inaccurate. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 16:01:01 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:01:01 -0600 Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) Message-ID: >From my elementary school days (ca. 1970) Ungawa Ungawa Yo mamma needs a shower Don't Laugh Don't Laugh Yo daddy needs a bath Kiss my acka backa my Soda Cracker My GTO Your stereo Yo Mama Yo Daddy Your Greasy Granny got holes in her Panties And (to the tune of the commercial jingle) McDonald's is your kind of place Hamburgers in your face Two pickles up your nose French fries between your toes The last time that I was there They fried my underwear McDonalds is your kind of place From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Jan 28 16:05:28 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:05:28 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <200501271913670.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bill re: extraneous characters in email the adl list software doesn't handle machine code formatting very well thats why you see extraneous characters everyone could try to send plain text w/o any formatting to the list everyone can choose that preference in their email clients and then again you'd still have to have your browser working well to see it correctly on your screen Not all software play nice with others it's not about language it's about technology. hope that helps, Karen Ellis >On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > > > Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive > > > without > > > extraneous characters inserted? > > > > Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some etymologies > > are not Irish in origin? /// Karen Ellis /// Educational CyberPlayGround __ /// National Children's Folksong Repository \\\/// Guavaberry Books \X/ Funk Brothers WebQuest \/ "Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect." - Chief Seattle "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Mark Twain From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:05:44 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:05:44 -0500 Subject: "See You Later" In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >>> Now, my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J. B. S. Haldane, Possible Worlds and Other Essays (1927) Fred Shapiro <<< I keep this in my collection of natural laws (like Murphy's) under the name "Haldane's Suspicion". mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:10:12 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:10:12 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter sez: >>> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At You, Earthman." <<< I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes more sense to me as a graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a lot... though I can't be sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 but stayed close for many years after). -- Mark M. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:16:51 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:16:51 -0500 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: inquit Bev: >>> I don't mind nonindented papers as long as there's doublespacing between paragraphs; otherwise they drive me crazy (and I get this a lot from students). I encourage indenting mainly because of this problem. <<< And I get a lot of grief when copying text electronically between applications. F'rex, I see a nicely formatted web page or MS Word document, with the paragraphs separated by blank lines, and I copy it and paste it into a plaintext document (the only universal format, or the closest thing there is to one)... and those blank lines disappear, because they're part of the formatting, not the text. Grrr. mark by hand From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:19:09 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:19:09 -0500 Subject: just too small Message-ID: Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & Taylor's collection of American proverbs. New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 28 16:22:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:22:06 -0500 Subject: Teachers' Saucy Looks (1924); I Love Coffee, Tea (1925); Liar, Liar (1961) In-Reply-To: <20050128131900.8036.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:19 AM -0800 1/28/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My grandparents told me (1955) that their little friends used to say >the "No more pencils..." rhyme in the '90s in NYC, exactly as given >in Barry's post. > >Both their versions had "dirty looks." our version did too (early 50's NYC); we didn't know from "saucy" or "sassy" larry > On the rare occasions when my grandmother used the word "saucy" in >conversation she pronounced it "sassy." I don't believe my >grandfather even used the word. (Usually they used the synonyms >"fresh" or "smart.") > >JL > From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Jan 28 16:29:46 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:29:46 +0000 Subject: indenting In-Reply-To: <200501281616.j0SGGrMU014090@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 28/1/05 4:16 pm, Mark A. Mandel at mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU wrote: > > And I get a lot of grief when copying text electronically between > applications. F'rex, I see a nicely formatted web page or MS Word document, > with the paragraphs separated by blank lines, and I copy it and paste it > into a plaintext document (the only universal format, or the closest thing > there is to one)... and those blank lines disappear, because they're part of > the formatting, not the text. Grrr. As a typographer, I work in QuarkXpress on a Mac. Text, however, arrives in all formats from a variety of programmes. I normally set text with indented paragraphs (either an indent equivalent to the text size or to the overall leading). Full out paras are used in chapter openings and after cross/sub-heads. I tend to find that Word users who indent use a tab, rather than an indent style-sheet. This means that when I reformat the text I have to do a find/replace on all the tabs, then apply a para indent style-sheet. Not too difficult. With double-spaced, full-out paras I simply do a find/replace for two para returns and substitute one para return. Then apply my para indent style-sheet. Printed text requires different treatment from that of correspondence or emails. neil at typog.co.uk From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 16:34:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:34:56 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) Message-ID: So it was just a joke? That's a relief. I saw it in the singular because it was written at exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in an university men's room. Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The museum was badly affected, a number of priceless paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an urgent effort was being made try to restore what paintings could be saved. Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building up inside a completely different university's lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the men's rooms. Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" And I've never forgotten. JL JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter sez: >>> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At You, Earthman." <<< I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes more sense to me as a graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a lot... though I can't be sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 but stayed close for many years after). -- Mark M. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 16:36:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:36:39 -0800 Subject: just too small Message-ID: As I've heard it, undoubtedly in a western, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: just too small ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & Taylor's collection of American proverbs. New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 16:39:26 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:39:26 -0500 Subject: "super"model inflation Message-ID: I was amused by this article in the otherwise financially inclined TheStreet.com, which made some interesting observations on the description of Donald Trump's wife's former occupation: --- Back in April and May 2004 -- when Trump and Knauss' engagement became public -- we found 104 press mentions of Knauss that mentioned her occupation. In 101 of them, she was described as a model. In three, a supermodel. Fast forward to this month, when we found 212 mentions of Knauss' job. She was identified as a supermodel in 33 of them. In other words, a model who was rated a supermodel 3% of the time eight months ago got bumped up to being a supermodel 16% of the time today. --- No mention of Barry Popik's work on this term, however. Full article at http://www.thestreet.com/_tscs/markets/dumbestgm/10205701_4.html Jesse Sheidlower OED From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jan 28 17:11:02 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:11:02 -0600 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query In-Reply-To: <41FA416D.809CB079@moreheadstate.edu> Message-ID: I have some evidence that suggests the opposite of what you're finding. In written responses to a minimal pair test for the low back vowel merger in Missouri, there are generally small differences in the reactions to the pairs Don/Dawn and cot/caught. People who have the merger tend to have it in both environments. One exception is in the southeast part of the state, the area of strongest Southern influence historically. Here the merger appears to be much more common prenasally (i.e. in Don/Dawn) than before /t/ (i.e. cot/caught). I too would be interested to hear about any work on the conditioning effects of the upglided open o vowel. On 1/28/05 7:43 AM, "Terry Irons" wrote: > Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a > strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that > distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in > the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in > Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this > query. > > Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before > voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an > upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are > monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented > on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may > be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the > merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by > expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) > > -- > Virtually, Terry > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu > Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 > Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jan 28 17:51:13 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:51:13 -0800 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query In-Reply-To: <20050128152517.30351.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They're not monophthongs to a listener from points west! Peter Mc. --On Friday, January 28, 2005 7:25 AM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of "cawed" and > "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All these of course > are still monophthongs in my speech, but after muttering them aloud even > I can hear what you're talking about. > > Have never thought about this before. > > JL ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 28 17:59:27 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:59:27 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) In-Reply-To: <20050128163456.86264.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My fave, from the men's room of Dirty Frank's at 13th & Pine in Philly ca. 1987: Free Soviet jews! And get valuable coupons too! Ed --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > So it was just a joke? That's a relief. > > I saw it in the singular because it was written at > exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in > an university men's room. > > Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a > devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The > museum was badly affected, a number of priceless > paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an > urgent effort was being made try to restore what > paintings could be saved. > > Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building > up inside a completely different university's > lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, > unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged > phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, > and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while > Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a > janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the > men's rooms. > > Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny > words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - > "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" > > And I've never forgotten. > > JL > > JL > > > "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) > (etc.) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter sez: > >>> > A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At > You, Earthman." > <<< > > I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes > more sense to me as a > graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a > lot... though I can't be > sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 > but stayed close for many > years after). > > -- Mark M. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jan 28 18:18:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:18:48 -0500 Subject: monetized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >>OED has it from the 1860s or the 1950s, depending on which sense. > >Thanks - I'll check the OED entry. Is its use today relatively rare? Or do >I just not move in the monetized circles? > >Bethany ~~~~~~~~~ Its negative, "demonetize" was heard in the UK quite a bit when I was last there, shortly before the decimalization of the currency. It had to do with taking certain coins out of circulation by removing their monetary value altogether. A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 28 18:28:27 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:28:27 -0800 Subject: agreement with nearest Message-ID: ADS-L figures prominently in my latest posting ("Agreement with nearest always bad?") on Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001846.html From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Jan 28 18:43:17 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:43:17 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query In-Reply-To: <20050128152517.30351.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have never heard any New Yorker do this vowel (in any position) with other than an inglide; an upglide seems impossible in that variety. dInIs >There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of >"cawed" and "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All >these of course are still monophthongs in my speech, but after >muttering them aloud even I can hear what you're talking about. > >Have never thought about this before. > >JL > > > >Terry Irons wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Terry Irons >Subject: Low Back Vowel Query >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a >strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that >distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in >the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in >Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this >query. > >Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before >voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an >upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are >monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented >on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may >be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the >merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by >expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) > >-- >Virtually, Terry >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) >Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu >Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 >Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 18:59:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:59:36 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This, interesting in itself, also illustrates the thou/you split. Good on you, Jon! -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson. [xui] it is, despite the oddly Chinese look. > > Never missing a chance to make history leap to life, I offer the > following early ex. of "swearing like a trooper": > > "I then chanced to tread upon the Foot of a Female Quaker, to all > outward Appearance, but was surprised to hear her cry out D-------n > you, you Son of a B----------- upon which I immediately rebuked her, > when all of a sudden resuming her character, Verily, says she, I was > to blame; but thou hast bruised me sorely. A few moments after this > Adventure, I had like to been knocked down by a Shepherdess for having > run my Elbow a little inadvertently into one of her sides. She swore > like a Trooper and threatned [sic] me with a very masculine Voice. > > ---------------"Lucifer," > "To Nestor Ironsides, Esq.," in The Guardian No. 454 (2: 262) (London, > 1714). > > This was at a high-toned masquerade ball. It beats OED by 25 years. > "Trooper" itself seems not to be findable before 1640. > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former > West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in > "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the > Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the > phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, > "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation > hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the > genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian > military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase > respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us > American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob > tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck > thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used > "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the > case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse > like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. > > The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of > taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that > the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like > "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration > of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's > correspondent's point. > > I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were > using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" > and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault > rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: hooey >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" >> comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that >> sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested >> Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar >> synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an >> expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned >> and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian >> especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply >> meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw >> you!" Pithy. >> >> Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic >> immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion >> suddenly became plausible. To me. >> >> The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this >> interesting suggestion." >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 19:13:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:13:27 -0500 Subject: just too small In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether Jim Fisk is an ancestor of Wilson "The Kingpin" Fisk. -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: just too small > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & > Taylor's collection of American proverbs. > > New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, > Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. > Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: > National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally > financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 19:31:49 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:31:49 -0500 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can top that one. This is from a men's-room wall at Washington University in Saint Louis: Please join us in the struggle to stamp out racism! Take a nigger home with you for dinner. (Yes, I'm black. But does that mean that I can't have a sense of humor?) -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My fave, from the men's room of Dirty Frank's at 13th > & Pine in Philly ca. 1987: > > Free Soviet jews! > And get valuable coupons too! > > Ed > > > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> So it was just a joke? That's a relief. >> >> I saw it in the singular because it was written at >> exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in >> an university men's room. >> >> Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a >> devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The >> museum was badly affected, a number of priceless >> paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an >> urgent effort was being made try to restore what >> paintings could be saved. >> >> Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building >> up inside a completely different university's >> lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, >> unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged >> phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, >> and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while >> Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a >> janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the >> men's rooms. >> >> Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny >> words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - >> "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" >> >> And I've never forgotten. >> >> JL >> >> JL >> >> >> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >> Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) >> (etc.) >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter sez: >>>>> >> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At >> You, Earthman." >> <<< >> >> I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes >> more sense to me as a >> graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a >> lot... though I can't be >> sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 >> but stayed close for many >> years after). >> >> -- Mark M. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From davemarc at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 28 17:54:20 2005 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:54:20 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: From: Jesse Sheidlower > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has > at least been his recent pattern. > Ah, that Hopalong Cassidy! David From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 28 20:36:40 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:36:40 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of davemarc > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:54 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > > From: Jesse Sheidlower > > > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > > read the responses (though of course he could be using the > archives). > > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. > This has at > > least been his recent pattern. > > > Ah, that Hopalong Cassidy! > You probably weren't aware, but "hopalong" derives from the Irish. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 28 20:40:21 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:40:21 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice Message-ID: In a letter printed in the NYT 1/28/05 (p. A20), John A. Viteritti asserts: ----- In "Winning Cases, Losing Voters" (Op-Ed, Jan. 26), Paul Starr presents the Democratic Party with the Hobbesian choice of living by its convictions [AMZ: and losing votes] or compromising its principles in order to get more votes. ----- At first i thought this was a malapropism ("Hobbesian" for "Hobson's") followed by a semantic extension, from 'no choice at all' to 'a bad choice, between two unacceptable alternatives'. In any case, the expression was unfamiliar to me. But then Google told me that the Hobbesian path was well trodden, especially in 2003. First, at http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-wood042103.asp there's a National Review piece (4/21/03), "Hobbesian Choice: An oral translation", by Peter Wood, which begins: ----- MR. PAYTON: I think that decision which would say that we have to choose, would be a Hobbesian choice here. I _thought_ that's what I heard Mr. Payton said, but I had to wait for the transcript to be sure. John Payton is the lawyer who argued the University of Michigan's case to the Supreme Court in _Gratz_ v. _Bollinger_ on April 1. ----- After some Payton-bashing, Wood gets around to asking: "... What in the world is a Hobbesian choice?" He rejects the Hobson's choice interpretation, in favor of invoking the ideas of political philosopher Thomas Hobbes. Later that year, in July, the folks on STUMPERS-L coped with Hobbesian choices. Here's our very own Fred Shapiro: ----- On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Sidney Allinson wrote: > > Wall Street Journal (via ProQuest Nat'l Newspapers - 1988 to present): > > Harbrandt, Robert F. "Letter to the editor:EDB goes against the grain" > > Wall Street Journal_, April 10, 1984. > > "EPA did not make a Hobbesian choice when they banned EDB." > Surely, the correct phrase is: > "HOBSON'S Choice." No, actually "Hobbesian choice" appears to be a legitimate term that is not a malapropism for "Hobson's choice." It is used to mean a choice between brutish options, whereas "Hobson's choice" means no choice at all. ----- At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto Hobson's, a suspicion that was not allayed by a column (later in 2003) in which it's maintained that a choice between two bad alternatives *is* no choice at all: ----- http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/tar.htm "Tar Baby II" by Edgar J. Steele, 10/25/03, about G. W. Bush: George's current dilemma is a classic Hobbesian choice, which is no choice at all, the name of which derives from Thomas Hobbes' belief that man must choose between living in a state of nature (a life which is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short") or suffering under an arbitrary and absolute government (Thomas Hobbes, _The Elements of Law: Natural and Politic_, 1640). ----- So, are these references to Hobbes just after-the-fact reworkings, or did someone devise "Hobbesian choice" independently of Hobson? How far back has anyone gotten with "Hobbesian choice"? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 21:02:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:02:58 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: A version of this is the only instance of anti-Semitism that I recall from my childhood, ca.1940-1950. Acka-backa soda cracker If your daddy chews tobacco He's a dirty Jew One two three means "Out goes you" The first person out was "it" in a game of hide-and-(go-)seek or whatever. Adults who overheard us stopped us children from using such language. At the time, though, we had no referent for the term "soda cracker," let alone for the term "dirty Jew." Hence, we had no idea what the problem was. So, we simply stopped using this rhyme where adults could overhear us, just as we stopped using the other usual obscenities in the presence of adults, though we continued to use them otherwise. Well, we did stop using "Acka-backa" when we became old enough to lose interest in playing "it" games. -Wilson Gray From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jan 28 21:40:54 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:40:54 -0500 Subject: lavatory signs Message-ID: The best men's room sign ever has to be on the brass plate affixed to the wall in the British Museum's men's room: "Casual Ablutions Only" From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Jan 28 21:50:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:50:26 -0500 Subject: just too small Message-ID: George Thompson wrote: > >Here is a familiar expression that I don't see in HDAS or in Whiting & >Taylor's collection of American proverbs. > >New York city at that time wasn't big enough to hold Josie Mansfield, >Jim Fisk and Stokes all at once. >Samuel A. Mackeever, Glimpses of Gotham and City Characters, N. Y.: >National Police Gazette, 1880, p. 18, col. 2 [Jim Fisk, the rascally >financier; Edward Stokes wound up shooting him.] Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >As I've heard it, undoubtedly in a western, "This town ain't big enough for >the both of us!" And let's not forget this classic exchange... ------ "Bugs Bunny Rides Again" (1948, directed by Friz Freleng) Yosemite Sam: This town ain't big enough fer the two of us! Bugs Bunny: It ain't? Sam: No, it ain't! (Bugs builds up the town until it resembles the New York skyline) Sam: No, still not big enough! ------ Here's an early example from Warrenton, Georgia (not exactly the Wild West, but apparently notorious at the time for blood feuds): ------ M'GREGOR KILLS CODY; THE END OF A BLOODY FEUD IN WARRENTON. M'GREGOR FIRES THREE SHOTS And Puts an End to the Life of Cody, Who Had Attempted to Assassinate Him--A Woman in the Case. Atlanta Constitution, Oct 13, 1889, p. 15 Well, Jim," said McGregor. "I always thought you did it, and I want to say that this town isn't big enough for both of us. I have nothing to leave for, and you have. I won't hurt you. You didn't think of my wife and children, but I will think of yours, but you must leave here in ten days." "But, Mack, I can't get ready in that time." "How long do you want?" "I don't know." "Will a hundred days suit you?" "Yes." "Then in a hundred days you musg go. The town ain't big enough for both of us, and if you go, all right; if you don't, I will prosecute you." ------ --Ben Zimmer From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Fri Jan 28 22:11:09 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:11:09 -0500 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: <20050128204027.0CC7F7AE93@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Arnold, Your post reminds me, eggcorn-wise, that on today's NPR program "Science Friday" I heard a caller "exult" the guest and host to spread the word about avian flu. Probably an overly sincere stumble but I exult you to add it to your ongoing research. Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Jan 28, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Hobbesian choice > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a letter printed in the NYT 1/28/05 (p. A20), John A. Viteritti > asserts: > ----- > In "Winning Cases, Losing Voters" (Op-Ed, Jan. 26), Paul Starr presents > the Democratic Party with the Hobbesian choice of living by its > convictions [AMZ: and losing votes] or compromising its principles in > order to get more votes. > ----- > > At first i thought this was a malapropism ("Hobbesian" for "Hobson's") > followed by a semantic extension, from 'no choice at all' to 'a bad > choice, between two unacceptable alternatives'. In any case, the > expression was unfamiliar to me. But then Google told me that the > Hobbesian path was well trodden, especially in 2003. > > First, at > http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-wood042103.asp > there's a National Review piece (4/21/03), "Hobbesian Choice: An oral > translation", by Peter Wood, which begins: > ----- > MR. PAYTON: I think that decision which would say that we have to > choose, would be a Hobbesian choice here. > > I _thought_ that's what I heard Mr. Payton said, but I had to wait for > the transcript to be sure. John Payton is the lawyer who argued the > University of Michigan's case to the Supreme Court in _Gratz_ v. > _Bollinger_ on April 1. > ----- > After some Payton-bashing, Wood gets around to asking: "... What in the > world is a Hobbesian choice?" He rejects the Hobson's choice > interpretation, in favor of invoking the ideas of political philosopher > Thomas Hobbes. > > Later that year, in July, the folks on STUMPERS-L coped with Hobbesian > choices. Here's our very own Fred Shapiro: > ----- > On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Sidney Allinson wrote: > >>> Wall Street Journal (via ProQuest Nat'l Newspapers - 1988 to > present): >>> Harbrandt, Robert F. "Letter to the editor:EDB goes against the > grain" >>> Wall Street Journal_, April 10, 1984. >>> "EPA did not make a Hobbesian choice when they banned EDB." > >> Surely, the correct phrase is: >> "HOBSON'S Choice." > > No, actually "Hobbesian choice" appears to be a legitimate term that is > not a malapropism for "Hobson's choice." It is used to mean a choice > between brutish options, whereas "Hobson's choice" means no choice at > all. > ----- > > At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very > far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than > Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime > (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still > suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto > Hobson's, a suspicion that was not allayed by a column (later in 2003) > in which it's maintained that a choice between two bad alternatives > *is* no choice at all: > ----- > http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/tar.htm > > "Tar Baby II" by Edgar J. Steele, 10/25/03, about G. W. Bush: > > George's current dilemma is a classic Hobbesian choice, which is no > choice at all, the name of which derives from Thomas Hobbes' belief > that man must choose between living in a state of nature (a life which > is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short") or suffering under an > arbitrary and absolute government (Thomas Hobbes, _The Elements of Law: > Natural and Politic_, 1640). > ----- > > So, are these references to Hobbes just after-the-fact reworkings, or > did someone devise "Hobbesian choice" independently of Hobson? How far > back has anyone gotten with "Hobbesian choice"? > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 28 22:53:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:53:59 -0500 Subject: Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologies In-Reply-To: <20050128050206.B3D82B2877@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen writes: >>>>> FWIW, Daniel Cassidy's Irish etymologizing no doubt contains many "false positives." But I'll say this for his efforts: If there are in fact any words currently regarded as being of unknown origin but in fact deriving from Irish, Cassidy will likely find them. At that point I'll very willingly overlook all the suggestions which didn't pan out and rejoice at the few which did. "Kibosh" may be one such item (let's wait and see), and perhaps his suggestion on the card game faro deserves further consideration too. <<<<< I'll admit that. Now, who is willing to plow through it all to sift the gold from the dross? -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Jan 28 23:12:33 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:12:33 -0600 Subject: lavatory signs In-Reply-To: <002b01c50582$0d265330$28b99b3f@chaos> Message-ID: In the mid 50s at Jimmy's: "Irving DePriest is a homosexual" Which, when everyone was being called a fag or queer, I thought was high praise for both the U of C's erudition and the inherent politeness of scholars. In '57 saw the same graffito in a men's room in Los Angeles > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 28 23:19:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:19:01 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: <65abe5f740ce717c30fe5a234556b00a@grinchy.com> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Erik Hoover wrote: > Arnold, > > Your post reminds me, eggcorn-wise, that on today's NPR program > "Science Friday" I heard a caller "exult" the guest and host to spread > the word about avian flu. > > Probably an overly sincere stumble but I exult you to add it to your > ongoing research. a lovely classical malapropism, but not actually eggcorny. meanwhile, over on the Language Log, my colleague David Beaver seems to have made a two-part error himself: a lexical substitution, of "snowclone" for "eggcorn" (this is semantically based, unlike Hoover's "exult" example, which is phonologically based), but then the word choice errors he cites look like plain ol' classical malapropisms, with no eggcornic tendencies. entertaining though: "defecated" for "dedicated" and "defected". arnold From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 23:28:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:28:23 -0500 Subject: Irish Gaelic Message-ID: I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" [il,I]? I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely stating that that's what happened, surely? -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Jan 28 23:32:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:32:21 -0500 Subject: lavatory signs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ving is gay?! Who knew? On Jan 28, 2005, at 6:12 PM, paulzjoh wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: lavatory signs > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In the mid 50s at Jimmy's: "Irving DePriest is a homosexual" Which, > when everyone was being called a fag or queer, I thought was high > praise > for both the U of C's erudition and the inherent politeness of > scholars. > > In '57 saw the same graffito in a men's room in Los Angeles > >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:14:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:14:45 -0800 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: The sexual sense of "jazz," v., further complicates etymological investigation. There is widespread testimony from the '20s and later that this was known before the word for the music, yet - perhaps for obvious reasons - pre-WWI cites are unavailable. If "jazz" = "screw" antedates "jazz" = "music," the problem is very different than if the reverse obtains. Raven McDavid, Jr., recalled once that when his father first heard that a "jazz" band was coming to Charleston, he couldn't believe his ears. And his reaction allegedly had nothing to do with music. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Jesse, I assume you're checking your Irish dictionary and your team of > experts if indicated. > Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point. > > If it is, then shame on me. > > JL "Cassidy's suggestion is not obviously absurd at this point." I'm standing with you foursquare on this one. I've always felt that the decades-long attempt to connect the colored American with the devil's music is totally misplaced. Clearly, Irish jigs, reels, and such like are the true source of such cacophony. A more recent example is the recording of the song "Colours" by the Irish singer Donovan. Notice the oddly-rhythmic drumming that is heard as part of the background music, not to mention the singer's own particular method of playing the guitar. It's a revelation! And then there's the fact that, for an Irish-American former colleague of mine, one David Beach ("Beach" doesn't strike me as being an Irish name, but, since I found out that the "obviously" Teutonic name, "Hindelang," is of Irish provenance, I've learned to reserve judgment on such points), the word "jazz" was a living, active part of his normal vocabulary for that for which others would substitute "fuck." -Wilson Gray > > > > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:03:02PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> >>> Is there some setting in AOL you can change so your posts come arrive >>> without >>> extraneous characters inserted? >> >> Is there some setting in AOL that he can change so that some >> etymologies >> are not Irish in origin? > > Hahahahaha! > > BTW, Daniel Cassidy does not stay on this list even long enough to > read the responses (though of course he could be using the archives). > He joins, immediately posts, and then immediately resigns. This has > at least been his recent pattern. > > Jesse Sheidlower > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:19:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:19:07 -0800 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: Inglide, upglide, it's a glide, OK? Let God sort 'em out. JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Low Back Vowel Query ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have never heard any New Yorker do this vowel (in any position) with other than an inglide; an upglide seems impossible in that variety. dInIs >There seems to be a slight upglide in my NYC pronunciation of >"cawed" and "sawed" but virtually none in "bought" or "caught." All >these of course are still monophthongs in my speech, but after >muttering them aloud even I can hear what you're talking about. > >Have never thought about this before. > >JL > > > >Terry Irons wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Terry Irons >Subject: Low Back Vowel Query >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Across much of the south, the back vowel in words such as hawk has a >strong back upglide. In fact, in some cases, it is the upglide that >distinguishes words such as cod and cawed, which show a near merger in >the speech of some. But in analyzing the speech of some people in >Kentucky, I have noticed a curious pattern, which is the basis of this >query. > >Again and again, I have observed the lose of the back upglide before >voiceless alveolar stops. For example, cawed and talk both have an >upglide, but words such as bought and taught do not. They are >monophthongal. I am wondering if anyone else has observed or commented >on such a conditioned loss of this glide, and whether this process may >be a factor in the back vowel merger. If so, it might such that the >merger is merger by approximation in some places, rather than merger by >expansion as has been argued by others (e.g. Herold) > >-- >Virtually, Terry >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) >Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu >Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 >Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 >(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:21:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:21:56 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: Thanks, Wilson. I didn't even catch the "thou/ you." That's two big contributions to thou/ you studies in two days! (And they're contemporary with each other as well.) JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This, interesting in itself, also illustrates the thou/you split. Good on you, Jon! -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks, Wilson. [xui] it is, despite the oddly Chinese look. > > Never missing a chance to make history leap to life, I offer the > following early ex. of "swearing like a trooper": > > "I then chanced to tread upon the Foot of a Female Quaker, to all > outward Appearance, but was surprised to hear her cry out D-------n > you, you Son of a B----------- upon which I immediately rebuked her, > when all of a sudden resuming her character, Verily, says she, I was > to blame; but thou hast bruised me sorely. A few moments after this > Adventure, I had like to been knocked down by a Shepherdess for having > run my Elbow a little inadvertently into one of her sides. She swore > like a Trooper and threatned [sic] me with a very masculine Voice. > > ---------------"Lucifer," > "To Nestor Ironsides, Esq.," in The Guardian No. 454 (2: 262) (London, > 1714). > > This was at a high-toned masquerade ball. It beats OED by 25 years. > "Trooper" itself seems not to be findable before 1640. > > JL > > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > When I was a voice-intercept operator at Tempelhof AFB in the former > West Berlin, we routinely used the word "dick" to mean "nothing," as in > "I don't hear dick." By a coincidence that I still find amazing, the > Russians whose voice communication we intercepted likewise used the > phrase,heard to say, "Ya ne huya ne slyshu." Or, as we say in English, > "I don't hear dick." Word for word, it's "I negation dick negation > hear." (Multiple negation is obligatory in Russian and "huya" is the > genitive singular of "huy," pronounced approx. "hooey.") The Russian > military used "huy" relatively rarely and only in the one phrase > respecting the clarity of a radio connection, which was also true of us > American soldiers. The Russian soldiers much more commonly used "Yob > tvoyu mat'," which ambiguously means "(I) fucked thy mother!" and "Fuck > thy mother!" as an exclamation in situations in which Americans used > "Motherfucker!" or "Son of a bitch!" In other words, as is so often the > case, the military language differs from the civilian language. "Curse > like a trooper/a sailor" has a factual basis. > > The transliteration of the Slavic sound [x] is pretty much a matter of > taste. "Khooy" tends to give the untutored masses the impression that > the Slavic word is pronounced [kui], when it sounds a lot more like > "hooey," though not quite exactly like it. However, the transliteration > of [x] as "h" does a better job of clarifying Jonathan's > correspondent's point. > > I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were > using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" > and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault > rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: hooey >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> A few years ago a Polish colleague suggested to me that AmE "hooey" >> comes directly from similar Polish, Russian; and Ukrainian words that >> sound much like it (don't know how they're spelled). The suggested >> Slavic etymon (if I may simplify just slightly) is the common vulgar >> synonym for the penis, which is used widely in these languages as an >> expletive, much like our beloved F-word. Probing more deeply, I yawned >> and said "So what?" The answer was that in Russian and Ukrainian >> especially this "khooy" is very often used as a one word reply >> meaning, essentially, "That's a whole lotta shit and what's more screw >> you!" Pithy. >> >> Given the circa 1917 appearance of AmE "hooey" and that Slavic >> immigrants had been arriving for some time previously, the suggestion >> suddenly became plausible. To me. >> >> The moral is, "Always demand 'So what?' and be sure to check out this >> interesting suggestion." >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 00:23:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:23:53 -0800 Subject: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) Message-ID: Your sense of humor must be as prescribed by us liberal white guys. Well, duh! JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can top that one. This is from a men's-room wall at Washington University in Saint Louis: Please join us in the struggle to stamp out racism! Take a nigger home with you for dinner. (Yes, I'm black. But does that mean that I can't have a sense of humor?) -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:59 PM, Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) (etc.) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My fave, from the men's room of Dirty Frank's at 13th > & Pine in Philly ca. 1987: > > Free Soviet jews! > And get valuable coupons too! > > Ed > > > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> So it was just a joke? That's a relief. >> >> I saw it in the singular because it was written at >> exactly eye-level on the reverse of a stall door in >> an university men's room. >> >> Similarly: in 1970, I think, Venice suffered a >> devastating flood. (Yeah, I know; get over it.) The >> museum was badly affected, a number of priceless >> paintings were ruined or seriously damaged, and an >> urgent effort was being made try to restore what >> paintings could be saved. >> >> Meanwhile, in the New World, graffiti was building >> up inside a completely different university's >> lavatories. It was the usual stupid, goofy, >> unpleasant collection of misspelled curses, alleged >> phone numbers, contextless words, assignation notes, >> and crude sexual drawings. Then, one night, while >> Venice was still prominent on the evening news, a >> janitorial crew showed up and repainted all the >> men's rooms. >> >> Within 24 hours, again at eye level, I read the tiny >> words - the only ones on a now pristine surface - >> "Restore NYU's Graffiti Treasures!" >> >> And I've never forgotten. >> >> JL >> >> JL >> >> >> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >> Subject: Re: "Nature's way of telling you" (1917) >> (etc.) >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter sez: >>>>> >> A personal favorite from ca1975: "We Are Laughing At >> You, Earthman." >> <<< >> >> I remember it in the plural, "Earthmen", which makes >> more sense to me as a >> graffito. A h.s. buddy of mine used to use it a >> lot... though I can't be >> sure he was using it in h.s. (we were class of '65 >> but stayed close for many >> years after). >> >> -- Mark M. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam >> protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 29 01:04:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:04:30 -0500 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:40 PM -0800 1/28/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote (quoting various authorities): >In a letter printed in the NYT 1/28/05 (p. A20), John A. Viteritti >asserts: >----- >In "Winning Cases, Losing Voters" (Op-Ed, Jan. 26), Paul Starr presents >the Democratic Party with the Hobbesian choice of living by its >convictions [AMZ: and losing votes] or compromising its principles in >order to get more votes. >----- >... >> Surely, the correct phrase is: >> "HOBSON'S Choice." > >No, actually "Hobbesian choice" appears to be a legitimate term that is >not a malapropism for "Hobson's choice." It is used to mean a choice >between brutish options, Or more generously, a choice of nasty, brutish, or short. Reminds me of my favorite question on one of those standardized career-options psych exams (sort of like SATs, but with life choices rather than the usual academic questions) they used to give us in high school and college: Would you rather be a. lazy b. stupid c. mean Little did I know at the time that this too was a Hobbesian choice. (Of course I chose (a), since I figured I had a head-start on that.) >whereas "Hobson's choice" means no choice at >all. >----- L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 01:36:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:36:26 -0800 Subject: Irish Gaelic Message-ID: Simple assertion does get us nowhere. If - and I speak as a celtolinguistic moron - the word is phonetically, semantically, and socially plausible as an English etymon, it's another semifinalist with some plausibility. Ideally, we'd like to have an unmistakable citational antedating with the Irish spelling or an approximation of it in an Irish context saying something like "playin' 'at divil's ceas music de whole night t'rough!" That kind of citation shows up in the OED frequently, though not, obviously, in this case. Jerry Cohen has seriously called into question the idea that "jazz" was applied to the music by people, presumably in or around N.O., who were familiar with the sexual sense of the word. The fact *seems* to be that "jazz music" was applied first to "Livery Stable Blues" and similar pieces as played by "The Original New Orelans Jazz Band" in Chicago. Of course other N.O. musicians were playing even bluesier music at the same time, but my limited research seems to support Jerry's conclusion that this early generation of black "jazzmen" went right on calling their music "ragtime," which was certainly one of its prime ingredients. In those long dead days before ubiquitous mass-media publicity, there was no pressing need to "repackage" the music as something brand-new. It was just extra-bluesy ragtime with a few other ideas, and guys like Jelly Roll had been playing it for years. By 1918, its newest aficionados were routinely calling it "jazz." If a pre-1912 cite ever appears, esp. outside of San Francisco, the entire linguistic picture might very well change. The musical picture hasn't and wouldn't. Jazz < ceas ? I don't know. At least there is some plausibility there. For the moment. If Cassidy is in error about the Irish prununciation or meaning, well, that's another story. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Irish Gaelic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" [il,I]? I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely stating that that's what happened, surely? -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 29 02:29:35 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:29:35 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <812a80f8a32a0c667f5149ec186e32dd@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 4:02 PM -0500 1/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >A version of this is the only instance of anti-Semitism that I recall >from my childhood, ca.1940-1950. > >Acka-backa soda cracker >If your daddy chews tobacco >He's a dirty Jew >One two three means >"Out goes you" > >The first person out was "it" in a game of hide-and-(go-)seek or >whatever. Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go My mother said to pick this very one Y-O-U spells you (If you got away with it, you stretched it out with fillers until you picked whoever you wanted to pick in the first place, but the first three lines were invariant.) But at some point I learned, to my horror, that this was bowdlerized from the original, which was not based on the t-word. And I see the cultural memory persists-- http://www.promoguy.net/archives/001874.php March 05, 2003 Toe Jam From the ArcaMax news service: An April 15 trial date has been set by a Kansas City, Mo., judge for a lawsuit against Southwest Airlines over a flight attendant who was heard on the plane's intercom system saying, "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, pick a seat, we've got to go." Flight attendant Jennifer Cundiff was boarding passengers, the Kansas City Star reports, when she recited the ditty that has, in the past, been used as a racial slur against blacks. Sisters Grace Fuller and Louise Sawyer sued, claiming the airline was guilty of racism because the saying -- the original version goes: Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, catch a n----- by the tow (sic) -- was aimed at them. larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 03:20:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:20:14 EST Subject: Pay-to-Sway; You have to be in it to win it; Proseccheria Message-ID: PAY-TO-SWAY ... No, not that kind of sway! Errol Louis (the former New York Sun columnist who the New York Times should have hired) has a great column (again) in today's New York Daily News, 28 January 2005, pg. 51, cols. 1-3, "On Ethics" by Errol Louis, "Wake up, Maggie: Another conservative columnist is clueless in pay-to-sway scandal." ... It's about conservative media members Armstrong Williams and Maggie Gallagher being paid by the Bush White House. Saturday Night Live recently did a fake "Hardball" with Chris Matthews parody, with an actor playing Armstrong Williams as a guest. "Armstrong Williams, any final comments?" Matthews asked. "Yes. One phone call can save you a bundle on car insurance," Williams replied. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS_ ... _Another conservative columnist is clueless in pay-to-sway scandal_ (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/275530p-235931c.html) New York Daily News, NY - 17 hour ... running their own racket. The Bush administration's pay-to-sway scandal continues to spread like an oil slick. The latest disclosure ... ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT TO WIN IT ... >From the New York Sun, 28 January 2005, "Bob Brown, 79, Mets Radio Host, TV Lottery Presenter," pg. 24, col. 3: ... "He was the one who came up with the phrase 'You have to be in it to win it," Ms. Mayer (Joanne Mayer, his daughter--ed.) said in a telephone interview with the Associated Press. A (Col. 4--ed.) New York lottery spokeswoman in Albany, N. Y., could not confirm that claim. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) ... _Radio host Brown remembered_ (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20050127&content_id=935325&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp) MLB.com - Jan 2 ... Brown also hosted the weekly New York State televised lottery drawing and is credited with coining the phrase "You have to be in it to win it.". ... ... ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- PROSECCHERIA (WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?) ... (GOOGLE) ... _New York's Premier Alternative Newspaper. Arts, Music, Food ..._ (http://www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm) ... Proseccheria. ... Window boxes of tulips line the front of Pasticcio restaurant, and a sign titles its adjacent barroom as Proseccheria. ... www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm - 39k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QzaMKAD8m78J:www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm+proseccheria&hl= en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nypress.com/16/16/food/food.cfm) ... ... "Proseccheria" is not in the OED. Revised OED, perhaps? I ate tonight at Pasticchio, 447 Third Avenue, between East 30th amd East 31st streets. It's OK Italian. ... Other places visited this past week included the Plaza Diner at Second Avenue and East 56th Street (good food and prices) and the Westway Diner on Ninth Avenue and West 44th Street. I had Westway's French Onion Soup ($3.25), and it was terrific, perhaps the best French Onion Soup in New York that's not from La Bonne Soupe. ... I asked the owner how come New York Metro ran a piece on French Onion Soup recently, but his place wasn't even listed. He told me that you have to pay to get mentioned in those newspapers. You know, take out ads. ... I guess I'm figuring out how this news business works. OK, Chicago Tribune reader representative! I want to get credit for my work when it appears for free in your newspaper, eight years after it was rejected. How much will that cost me? ... From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Jan 29 03:36:17 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:36:17 -0500 Subject: Pay-to-Sway; You have to be in it to win it; Proseccheria Message-ID: Barry Popik asked: >>I guess I'm figuring out how this news business works. OK, Chicago Tribune >>reader representative! I want to get credit for my work when it appears for >>free in your newspaper, eight years after it was rejected. How much will >>that >>cost me? Can't resist the opportunity to repeat the time-honored wisdom that if you have to ask...it's more than you can afford. Unless you've got some spare limbs hanging around? And don't waste your time trying to 'get a leg up on them', Barry. Just like personal days, you can't carry over personal parts from pay period to pay period. Michael McKernan From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Sat Jan 29 03:54:05 2005 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:54:05 -0600 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Message-ID: Here in southern La. was our version. (By the way I had no idea what a Jew was until I was in high school. ) Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Catch a N------ by the toe I f he hollers make him pay Fifty Dollars every day. My mother cut her finger, what color was the blood? (Answer:red) R--E--D-- spell red and Out you go with a dirty dishrag in your mouth. Anyone remember this one? I'm not sure about the words.. Inka Dink A Bottle of Ink You sure do stink. Then there was ... A tisket a Tasket A green and Yellow Basket I wrote a letter to my mom And on the way I dropped it. A little N----- picked it up and Put it in his pocket. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 29 04:02:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:02:27 -0500 Subject: Irish Gaelic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well argued, Jonathan, and I agree with you. I'm assuming that Prof. Cassidy is truly fluent in at least literary Irish Gaelic and one dialect. But I can only assume that. If he would say something like, the word "teas" is pronounced [however] and means "whatever" in literary Irish Gaelic (Society for the Resuscitation of Irish, Dictionary1999, p.1033). However, in dialect D, spoken in area A, from which a large portion of the Irish-American population originated, this string has the pronunciation "chazz" or even "jazz" and has the meaning, "a type of syncopated music" (O'Whoever, Irish Folksong, 1901, p.137). Or, failing that, something like, when I was a kid in Brooklyn, my grandparents used to sing a particular song. When I asked about it, they said whatever. I could go for that. But not Irish seol, pronounced shell and pisce, vocative (a) phisce, pronounced fish: English shellfish. I have to ask, are both words from the same dialect? And what dialect of Irish is that, so that we can know that what you say are the pronunciation and the meaning are correct? Is your spelling the traditional one or the modern one? What is the approximate date? etc. etc. Somewhere in my junkyardish office cum library, I have a pamphlet that shows that the use of spoken Irish in what is now the United States was not unknown in the 18th century. And there's the Irish signatory of the Declaration, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, whose brother, John, a Jesuit, was the first American Catholic bishop. Every word of Cassidy's etymologies could be correct, but he doesn't provide enough info for people not well-trained in Irish to be able to tell. -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Simple assertion does get us nowhere. If - and I speak as a > celtolinguistic moron - the word is phonetically, semantically, and > socially plausible as an English etymon, it's another semifinalist > with some plausibility. > > Ideally, we'd like to have an unmistakable citational antedating with > the Irish spelling or an approximation of it in an Irish context > saying something like "playin' 'at divil's ceas music de whole night > t'rough!" That kind of citation shows up in the OED frequently, > though not, obviously, in this case. > > Jerry Cohen has seriously called into question the idea that "jazz" > was applied to the music by people, presumably in or around N.O., who > were familiar with the sexual sense of the word. The fact *seems* to > be that "jazz music" was applied first to "Livery Stable Blues" and > similar pieces as played by "The Original New Orelans Jazz Band" in > Chicago. Of course other N.O. musicians were playing even bluesier > music at the same time, but my limited research seems to support > Jerry's conclusion that this early generation of black "jazzmen" went > right on calling their music "ragtime," which was certainly one of its > prime ingredients. In those long dead days before ubiquitous > mass-media publicity, there was no pressing need to "repackage" the > music as something brand-new. It was just extra-bluesy ragtime with a > few other ideas, and guys like Jelly Roll had been playing it for > years. By 1918, its newest aficionados were routinely calling it > "jazz." > > If a pre-1912 cite ever appears, esp. outside of San Francisco, the > entire linguistic picture might very well change. The musical picture > hasn't and wouldn't. > Jazz < ceas ? I don't know. At least there is some plausibility > there. For the moment. > > If Cassidy is in error about the Irish prununciation or meaning, > well, that's another story. > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish > Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it > formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a > professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of > Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. > > E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a > citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English > word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has > the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" > of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And > if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. > Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to > move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of > "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" > [il,I]? > > I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as > [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely > stating that that's what happened, surely? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 29 04:29:58 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:29:58 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was a kid during WWII, so the Eenie Meenie that we learned went: Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a Jap by his toe If he hollers "Oh-Ee-Yo" Throw him over in To-ke-yo! I was well into my thirties before I knew that there was any other version. I'm familiar with the book and the movie, "If He Hollers, Let Him Go." But, not knowing any other version of Eenie Meenie, I lived half my life without making the connection. -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 4:02 PM -0500 1/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >> A version of this is the only instance of anti-Semitism that I recall >> from my childhood, ca.1940-1950. >> >> Acka-backa soda cracker >> If your daddy chews tobacco >> He's a dirty Jew >> One two three means >> "Out goes you" >> >> The first person out was "it" in a game of hide-and-(go-)seek or >> whatever. > > Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In > our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > (If you got away with it, you stretched it out with fillers until you > picked whoever you wanted to pick in the first place, but the first > three lines were invariant.) > > But at some point I learned, to my horror, that this was bowdlerized > from the original, which was not based on the t-word. > > And I see the cultural memory persists-- > > http://www.promoguy.net/archives/001874.php > March 05, 2003 > Toe Jam > > From the ArcaMax news service: > An April 15 trial date has been set by a Kansas City, Mo., judge for > a lawsuit against Southwest Airlines over a flight attendant who was > heard on the plane's intercom system saying, "Eenie, meenie, minie, > moe, pick a seat, we've got to go." Flight attendant Jennifer Cundiff > was boarding passengers, the Kansas City Star reports, when she > recited the ditty that has, in the past, been used as a racial slur > against blacks. Sisters Grace Fuller and Louise Sawyer sued, claiming > the airline was guilty of racism because the saying -- the original > version goes: Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, catch a n----- by the tow > (sic) -- was aimed at them. > > larry > From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 04:39:39 2005 From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800 Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell New York Message-ID: Hello Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? My father, who grew up in NY and Philly, taught them to me back in the 50s. He had known them as a boy in the 20s. While watching a movie, Cinema Paradiso, they cut to a scene of chickens roosting in the back of an abandoned car. This somehow triggered the memory of the "Chicago rhyme". Teaching geography at the time, I was inspired to write what came to be called a "riddle rhyme' for each of the 50 states. These are riddles in verse wherein the name of the city or state is disquised amidst extraneous sounds, and must be deciphered through a listening process in which the appropriate name literally arises and finds its resonance. They are most effective when done orally, with no visual clues. So after you have guessed them you can administer them to others, a very interesting process in and of itself in terms of thought process and group dynamic. It is hard to be too competitive, for eg., when guessing riddle-rhymes. Also avoid looking up the answers in frustration. Rather take a second pass at them and note that you had halfway gotten them the first time. I have now also completed 100 riddle rhymes on the capitals and the major cities. This will be published this year as CHICKEN IN THE CAR AND THE CAR CAN'T GO. A KNIFE AND A FORK AND A BOTTLE AND A CORK is available in an xerox edition for $9.95 PPd from LemonTree Press Box 841 Santa Cruz CA 95060 send check; or email postmaster at lmntreepress.com I hope to have both books out within the year in regular editions, whenever I can find out where these rhymes originated. Knife and a Fork will have a more modern title PAPER OR PLASTIC THEY ALWAYS ASK YA (Alaska) Howard Schrager, Santa Cruz CA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Jan 29 05:07:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:07:35 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart > Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Here in southern La. was our version. (By the way I had no idea what a > = > Jew was until I was in high school. ) > Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > Catch a N------ by the toe > I f he hollers make him pay > Fifty Dollars every day. > My mother cut her finger, what color was the blood? (Answer:red) > R--E--D-- spell red and=20 > Out you go with a dirty dishrag in your mouth. > > Anyone remember this one? I'm not sure about the words.. > Inka Dink > A Bottle of Ink > You sure do stink. The version that we had (in St. Louis, though I'm a native of Marshall, Texas, about 35 mi. west of "Sreepote") was: Ink-a stink-a Bottle of ink-a Oh, how you do stink! It ain't none of me It ain't none of you It ain't nobody but Y-O-U! -Wilson Gray > > Then there was ... > A tisket a Tasket=20 > A green and Yellow Basket > I wrote a letter to my mom > And on the way I dropped it. > A little N----- picked it up and=20 > Put it in his pocket. > From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 05:28:10 2005 From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:28:10 -0800 Subject: Riddle Rhymes Message-ID: Sorry I forgot to include the sample riddle rhymes I spoke of earlier. Here they are with answers below: STATES 1) Glue can connect and a scissors can cut...That's how you spell... 2) Noah built the ark with a hammer and saw...That's how you spell... 3)Ten cents tax to step on the bus...THYS... 4) How to swim? Why to ski?...THYS... 5) Whiskey mixed in the cotton gin...THYS... CITIES 6)Sometimes I wonder why am I me...THYS 7)Many jobs have many applicants...THYS... 8) Just the kind of bog not to get lost in...THYS... 9) Don't just break it, destroy iy!...THYS... 10)The first of the month's when I feel the wealthiest...THYS... ans. 1)ct 2)ak 3)tx 4)hi 5)wi 6)miami 7)minneapolis 8)bos 9)det 10)phila Happy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 29 07:01:20 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:01:20 -0600 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: Another bowdlerized one from youth -- The grade school version of the Daniel Boone Show theme song went: Daniel Boone was a man, Yes a big man, But the bear was bigger so he ran like a n----- up a tree which cleaned up to: ran like a rabbit up a tree. I went to a neighborhood elementary school which was essentially all caucasian until after I reached third grade, at which time court-ordered busing integrated it. It was that year that I learned that the n-word was not just a word that you were careful who you said it around, but was a word that would get your ass whooped. A lot of rhymes got "cleaned up" that year. > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > But at some point I learned, to my horror, that this was bowdlerized > from the original, which was not based on the t-word. > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Jan 29 07:49:40 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:49:40 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: For a bit more-recent kidlore: Not long after Michael Jackson suffered burns during the shooting of a Pepsi Cola commercial (when was that?), a bunch of third-graders in Bernardston, MA taught me the following, which had 'made the rounds' in a very short time: I pledge allegiance to the flag, Michael Jackson is a fag, Pepsi Cola burnt him up, Now he's drinking Seven Up. Seven Up goes out of style, He'll be drinking Coke awhile. Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Jan 29 08:27:59 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:27:59 -0500 Subject: netroots Message-ID: "Netroots", analogized from "grassroots", gained popularity among Deaniacs in 2003-04, but the term is still going strong in the lefty blogosphere. Recent cites refer to the camaign for DNC chair (one candidate, Simon Rosenberg, is touting his "netroots" experience) and mobilization against Bush's Social Security plan. As always, Technorati is useful for tracking blog usage: . 1993 "Reply to Cliff Figallo" in _bit.listserv.words-l_ 15 Jan., Too bad there's no netroots organization that can demand more than keyboard accountability from those who claim to be acting on behalf of the "greater good" when they do things like this. 1995 _Socialism and Democracy_ Spring 151 (Proquest) New York based Paper Tiger Television ... has pioneered work on progressive uses of the electronic media through its two programs, "Staking a Claim in Cyberspace" and "Netroots: Cultivating Digital Park." 2003 _Dean Nation_ (weblog) 10 Mar., The challenge is for all of us Meetup.com enthusiasts and netroots fans of Dean to raise a million dollars for Dean's candidacy by March 31st. http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003/03/take-million-dollar-meetup-challenge.html 2003 _Daily Kos_ (weblog) 1 Jul., The Dean campaign has shown the power of the Netroots to raise money. ... It'll also help the grass- and netroots choose candidates that are not afraid to be Democrats. http://www.dailykos.net/archives/003234.html 2003 _CommonDreams.org_ 11 Aug., What we have in Dean is a man who can articulate liberal positions intelligently, passionately, and commandingly, and who has the grassroots/netroots support and an appeal to diverse constituencies that will allow him to defeat George Bush. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0811-09.htm 2003 _Boston Globe_ 9 Oct. A41 (Nexis) "You have a team of consultants completely at odds with what a real net-roots effort is all about," Moulitsas said. 2004 _Blog for America_ (weblog) 18 Oct., This surge of net roots support persuaded the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee to get behind Ginny, and her contest is now one of the DCCC's top targeted races. http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/005355.html 2004 _East Bay Express_ 15 Dec. (Proquest) Mastery of the mechanisms of netroots mobilization is a different thing from mastery of the methods. 2005 _Swing State Project_ (weblog) 18 Jan., A revolutionary website that gives the netroots the tools necessary to protect the integrity of social security. http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/01/there_is_no_cri_1.html 2005 _Salon.com_ 28 Jan., "What you get with me is a proven track record of winning in red states and the proven history of working with grass roots and 'net roots,'" Rosenberg said. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/01/28/dnc/ --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 11:40:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:40:01 EST Subject: Cross-Word Puzzle (1912) Message-ID: I'm about to add "cross-word puzzle" to my "Big Apple" web page. As everyone knows, the crossword puzzle first appeared in the New York World on December 21, 1913. OED's first cite of "cross-word puzzle" is December 1914. ... I found "cross word puzzle" in 1912. Maybe someone from the National Puzzlers' League can help solve this one? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Lincoln Daily News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2jFr1uBtmIzdyKynFfWkvsOG3aI9wJZLu0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, March 26, 1912 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+cross+word+and+puzzle+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+cross+word+and+puzzle+AND) ...is it an enigma, nor as it a CROSS WORD PUZZLE although those who solve.....of state AND nation which governs her AND am a complete favorer of Recall AND.. ... Pg. 1, col. 3: The "Plat Form," as Mr. Ross designates it, is not a rebus, neither is it an enigma, nor is it a cross word puzzle--although those who solve such things might be able to read it with considerable more alacrity than those who do not. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("cross-word" and "puzzle") ... 1. _Display Ad 2 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=277355432&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11069985 83&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 27, 1884. p. 3 (1 page) ... 2. _OUR PUZZLE DEPARTMENT. 1_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=277520312&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11069985 83&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 8, 1885. p. 6 (1 page) ... 3. _I " ''ooiuiiiittit^'''-- 'o-'"- ''-_ (http://proquest. umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=277545072&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP& TS=1106998583&clientId=65882) I EDmCfr BY MACK. : .. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 22, 1885. p. 6 (1 page) ... 4. _YOUNG FOLKS CORRESPONDENCE_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=532380202&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110699 8583&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Aug 1, 1897. p. A3 (1 page) ... 5. _Solution of Last Sunday's Puzzles._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=259587832&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1106998583&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 1, 1903. p. FP10 (1 page) ... 6. _Answer to Puzzle._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=254885372&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106998583&clie ntId=65882) BERNICE D. RANDALL.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 24, 1904. p. A12 (1 page) ....\ 7. _Solution of Algebraical Picture Puzzle._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=255011832&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName= HNP&TS=1106998583&clientId=65882) The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 25, 1904. p. B8 (1 page) ... 8. _Comic 1 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=520467302&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1106998583&cl ientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Sep 15, 1922. p. 8 (1 page) ... ... ... (Oxford English Dictionary) crossword, cross-word In full crossword puzzle. A puzzle in which a pattern of chequered squares has to be filled in from numbered clues with words which are written usu. horizontally and vertically, occas. diagonally. Also attrib. and Comb. 1914 N.Y. World 6 Dec. (?Fun?) 7/2 Solution to last week's cross-word puzzle. ... ... ... _http://www.crosswordtournament.com/more/wynne.html_ (http://www.crosswordtournament.com/more/wynne.html) Crossword puzzles are said to be the most popular and widespread word game in the world, yet have a short history. The first crosswords appeared in England during the 19th century. They were of an elementary kind, apparently derived from the word square, a group of words arranged so the letters read alike vertically and horizontally, and printed in children's puzzle books and various periodicals. In the United States, however, the puzzle developed into a serious adult pastime. The first known published crossword puzzle was created by a journalist named Arthur Wynne from Liverpool, and he is usually credited as the inventor of the popular word game. December 21, 1913 was the date and it appeared in a Sunday newspaper, the New York World. Wynne's puzzle(see below) differed from today's crosswords in that it was diamond shaped and contained no internal black squares. During the early 1920's other newspapers picked up the newly discovered pastime and within a decade crossword puzzles were featured in almost all American newspapers. It was in this period crosswords began to assume their familiar form. Ten years after its rebirth in the States it crossed the Atlantic and re-conquered Europe. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 12:54:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:54:16 -0800 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Message-ID: The 1890s NYC version had "Little Johnny picked it up." Have never heard this one with the "N" word. In NYC in the '50s, I never heard "eenie meenie..." with it either. My grandmother used "kitten." When I heard my second-grade teacher using "tiger," I was confused and angry, as kids are when others mess up cultural heirlooms. In fact, neither grandparent ever used the "N" word so far as I know. When the word first came up - can't remember how or when - my grandmother warned me forcefully never to use it. JL Janis Vizier Nihart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here in southern La. was our version. (By the way I had no idea what a = Jew was until I was in high school. ) Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Catch a N------ by the toe I f he hollers make him pay Fifty Dollars every day. My mother cut her finger, what color was the blood? (Answer:red) R--E--D-- spell red and=20 Out you go with a dirty dishrag in your mouth. Anyone remember this one? I'm not sure about the words.. Inka Dink A Bottle of Ink You sure do stink. Then there was ... A tisket a Tasket=20 A green and Yellow Basket I wrote a letter to my mom And on the way I dropped it. A little N----- picked it up and=20 Put it in his pocket. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 12:57:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:57:34 -0800 Subject: Irish Gaelic Message-ID: Right on, Wilson. I just feel that some who should know better tend to throw the baby out with the bath water. There does seem to be a lot of bath water, however. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Irish Gaelic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well argued, Jonathan, and I agree with you. I'm assuming that Prof. Cassidy is truly fluent in at least literary Irish Gaelic and one dialect. But I can only assume that. If he would say something like, the word "teas" is pronounced [however] and means "whatever" in literary Irish Gaelic (Society for the Resuscitation of Irish, Dictionary1999, p.1033). However, in dialect D, spoken in area A, from which a large portion of the Irish-American population originated, this string has the pronunciation "chazz" or even "jazz" and has the meaning, "a type of syncopated music" (O'Whoever, Irish Folksong, 1901, p.137). Or, failing that, something like, when I was a kid in Brooklyn, my grandparents used to sing a particular song. When I asked about it, they said whatever. I could go for that. But not Irish seol, pronounced shell and pisce, vocative (a) phisce, pronounced fish: English shellfish. I have to ask, are both words from the same dialect? And what dialect of Irish is that, so that we can know that what you say are the pronunciation and the meaning are correct? Is your spelling the traditional one or the modern one? What is the approximate date? etc. etc. Somewhere in my junkyardish office cum library, I have a pamphlet that shows that the use of spoken Irish in what is now the United States was not unknown in the 18th century. And there's the Irish signatory of the Declaration, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, whose brother, John, a Jesuit, was the first American Catholic bishop. Every word of Cassidy's etymologies could be correct, but he doesn't provide enough info for people not well-trained in Irish to be able to tell. -Wilson On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Simple assertion does get us nowhere. If - and I speak as a > celtolinguistic moron - the word is phonetically, semantically, and > socially plausible as an English etymon, it's another semifinalist > with some plausibility. > > Ideally, we'd like to have an unmistakable citational antedating with > the Irish spelling or an approximation of it in an Irish context > saying something like "playin' 'at divil's ceas music de whole night > t'rough!" That kind of citation shows up in the OED frequently, > though not, obviously, in this case. > > Jerry Cohen has seriously called into question the idea that "jazz" > was applied to the music by people, presumably in or around N.O., who > were familiar with the sexual sense of the word. The fact *seems* to > be that "jazz music" was applied first to "Livery Stable Blues" and > similar pieces as played by "The Original New Orelans Jazz Band" in > Chicago. Of course other N.O. musicians were playing even bluesier > music at the same time, but my limited research seems to support > Jerry's conclusion that this early generation of black "jazzmen" went > right on calling their music "ragtime," which was certainly one of its > prime ingredients. In those long dead days before ubiquitous > mass-media publicity, there was no pressing need to "repackage" the > music as something brand-new. It was just extra-bluesy ragtime with a > few other ideas, and guys like Jelly Roll had been playing it for > years. By 1918, its newest aficionados were routinely calling it > "jazz." > > If a pre-1912 cite ever appears, esp. outside of San Francisco, the > entire linguistic picture might very well change. The musical picture > hasn't and wouldn't. > Jazz < ceas ? I don't know. At least there is some plausibility > there. For the moment. > > If Cassidy is in error about the Irish prununciation or meaning, > well, that's another story. > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Irish Gaelic > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I by no means claim much more than almost a reading knowledge of Irish > Gaelic - well, I recognize when I see it, but I have studied it > formally with a native speaker of the Munster dialect who is a > professor of Irish at UC Dublin and I have a few problems with some of > Prof. Cassidy's claims, some of which seem to be unsupported. > > E.g. what are the circumstances under which "teas" can be given a > citation pronunciation that corresponds, however roughly, to an English > word spelled "jazz" or "jass"? In the Munster dialect, this string has > the pronunciation [t,aes], in which [t,] is a sound like the "soft" "t" > of Russian, [ae] represents "aesc," and [s] is the "-ss" of "mess." And > if the "t" of "teas" is soft to the point of shifting to "ch" in Prof. > Cassidy's dialect, then how does the "l" of "uile" escape this shift to > move in the opposite direction and receive the hard pronunciation of > "ila," presumably [il@], and not the soft pronunciation of "ilyih" > [il,I]? > > I'm willing to grant that "teas" could, or even would, be heard as > [Caes]. But how do we get to "jass" or "jazz" from there? Not by merely > stating that that's what happened, surely? > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 13:14:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:14:50 -0800 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: I grew up in what has long been a very liberal area of New York. Back in the fifties, they were Dems and "liberal Republicans" (yes, there once were such things: fiscally conservative, cautiously liberal on most social issues, tough but not apocalyptic on the Commies, strong on Civil Rights - which in those days often included the now sexist and forbidden word "brotherhood.") Maybe that's why I cannot recall ever hearing a kids' rhyme of any kind with the "N" word or any other ethnic slur. Even today I read examples of proto-racist kidlore here and elsewhere with a feeling of what I can only describe as "weirdness." The racial allusions seem somehow obsessive, or something. Must just be me. Carry on. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 14:55:32 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:55:32 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050129050009.98282B286B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "Mullins, Bill" sez: >>> I get the impression that some folks on this list find Daniel's posts repetitious, if not tiresome. It's pretty easy to hit the delete key. <<< Not if you subscribe to the digest and you want to read what anyone else has to say, as I do. (The continual flashing of incoming posts is too distracting.) The same applies to those who top-post a two-line -- or two-paragraph -- reply to a hundred-line post, which they are too lazy to delete or edit down. mark by hand From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 15:03:27 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:03:27 -0500 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050129050009.98282B286B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Karen Ellis wrote: >>> "Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect." - Chief Seattle "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Mark Twain <<< Indeed. The stirring speech attributed to Chief Seattle by a screenwriter over a century after his death will never be detached from his name. See http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm . -- Mark A. Mandel From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 15:15:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:15:44 -0800 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Damned good speech, too! JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karen Ellis wrote: >>> "Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect." - Chief Seattle "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Mark Twain <<< Indeed. The stirring speech attributed to Chief Seattle by a screenwriter over a century after his death will never be detached from his name. See http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm . -- Mark A. Mandel --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 15:39:31 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:39:31 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050129050009.98282B286B@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>> Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go My mother said to pick this very one Y-O-U spells you <<< NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". mark by hand From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 15:57:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:57:05 -0800 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: Yes, Mark. My grandmother's version in full was, Eenie, meenie, miney, mo, Catch a kitten by the toe. If he hollers, let him go. Eenie, meenie, miney, mo! At "mo!" you'd point to the child who was to be it. Your own version is the way the other kids did it, with "tiger" and "Out goes Y-O-U !" One could cheat by saying "You!" after the spelling and pointing to the next victim. Observe the absence of subject-verb agreement in the chants of these preliterate people. "Eenie, meenie, meenie, tekel upharsin, Out goes Neboo!" ---Daniel. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurence Horn said: >>> Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always Eenie meenie meinie moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers let him go My mother said to pick this very one Y-O-U spells you <<< NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". mark by hand __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 29 16:27:34 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:27:34 -0600 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: A few thoughts on the recent "jazz" discussion: 1) A bibliographic reference is my compilation (with due credit given) "_Jazz_ Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #2" in: Comments on Etymology, vol. 32, no 4-5 (Dec.2002/Jan. 2003, 91 pp. --- Draft #3 will appear sometime in the next 12 months incorporating the later disicussion. 2) In 1913, "jazz" was heralded as a new word which had just entered the language, and the first attestations were in connection with baseball. There were none at this time--none at all--in reference to music. As for the sexual use of "jazz," this must have come some time after 1913. Even if the worldly-wise sports writers of the San Francisco Bulletin were unaware of the sexual meaning of "jazz" (had it existed then), someone would have certainly tapped them on the shoulder to clue them in. The term could not have been used repeatedly as it was in the 1913 baseball columns if it had a sexual meaning at that time. 3) As for "jazz" referring to a type of music in New Orleans prior to 1913, there are no contemporary attestations of this--none, zip, nada. 4) Daniel Cassidy attaches importance to the term "jazz" being first used by Irishmen (Gleeson, Slattery); Slattery reportedly first heard it as an incantation in a crapshooting game he happened to witness. But Gleeson's Irish background had absolutely nothing to do with his acquiring and then using the term. And Slattery apparently didn't use the term in 1913 beyond telling Gleeson the story about the crapshooting game. Also, the crapshooters might have been Irish, but they just as plausibly could have been African-American. 5) The etymology of "jazz" is still open for discussion. I.e., if the crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting "jazz" (in: "Come on, the old jazz!") might plausibly derive from now obsolete "jasm" (energy, force). The incantation would then have meant roughly "May the force be with me." 6) So bringing Irish into the picture adds nothing to what we already know and is based on no evidence other than a possible similarity in sound (how close?) between "jazz" and Irish teas (sp.?). 7) A remaining point of uncertainty concerns the very few attestations of "jazz" in 1912, so named by Portland pitcher Ben Henderson because (according to Henderson), his jazz pitch "wobbles". My guess (and it is only that) is that it is somehow connected with "jag" (intoxication; "jags" in plural?). Now, if some similar-sounding Irish word meaning "wobble" could be found, maybe an Irish connection would be worthy of further consideration here. Gerald Cohen From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 16:43:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:43:43 -0800 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Jerry, I agree that no SF Bulletin editor in his right mind would have printed "jazz" in 1912 if he had the slightest suspicion that the word was indecent. And no reporter would have expected him to. Moreover, no group would have openly called itself a "Jazz Band" in 1916, if they knew better. However, if the sexual verb had been sufficiently regional, they mightn't have known of it. Ordinarily one could dismiss allegations of an earlier sexual meaning, but these seem to me to be so credible as to require consideration. Jerry's research on this topic has been exemplary as always, and a strict application of Occam's Razor would say the onus is now on others to prove him wrong. Yet we have (comparatively) so little data about American sexual slang in the 19th C. that I think any solid conclusion would be hasty even now. JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Re: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A few thoughts on the recent "jazz" discussion: 1) A bibliographic reference is my compilation (with due credit given) "_Jazz_ Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #2" in: Comments on Etymology, vol. 32, no 4-5 (Dec.2002/Jan. 2003, 91 pp. --- Draft #3 will appear sometime in the next 12 months incorporating the later disicussion. 2) In 1913, "jazz" was heralded as a new word which had just entered the language, and the first attestations were in connection with baseball. There were none at this time--none at all--in reference to music. As for the sexual use of "jazz," this must have come some time after 1913. Even if the worldly-wise sports writers of the San Francisco Bulletin were unaware of the sexual meaning of "jazz" (had it existed then), someone would have certainly tapped them on the shoulder to clue them in. The term could not have been used repeatedly as it was in the 1913 baseball columns if it had a sexual meaning at that time. 3) As for "jazz" referring to a type of music in New Orleans prior to 1913, there are no contemporary attestations of this--none, zip, nada. 4) Daniel Cassidy attaches importance to the term "jazz" being first used by Irishmen (Gleeson, Slattery); Slattery reportedly first heard it as an incantation in a crapshooting game he happened to witness. But Gleeson's Irish background had absolutely nothing to do with his acquiring and then using the term. And Slattery apparently didn't use the term in 1913 beyond telling Gleeson the story about the crapshooting game. Also, the crapshooters might have been Irish, but they just as plausibly could have been African-American. 5) The etymology of "jazz" is still open for discussion. I.e., if the crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting "jazz" (in: "Come on, the old jazz!") might plausibly derive from now obsolete "jasm" (energy, force). The incantation would then have meant roughly "May the force be with me." 6) So bringing Irish into the picture adds nothing to what we already know and is based on no evidence other than a possible similarity in sound (how close?) between "jazz" and Irish teas (sp.?). 7) A remaining point of uncertainty concerns the very few attestations of "jazz" in 1912, so named by Portland pitcher Ben Henderson because (according to Henderson), his jazz pitch "wobbles". My guess (and it is only that) is that it is somehow connected with "jag" (intoxication; "jags" in plural?). Now, if some similar-sounding Irish word meaning "wobble" could be found, maybe an Irish connection would be worthy of further consideration here. Gerald Cohen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jan 29 17:23:25 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:23:25 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: <001001c505b6$2eac2eb0$6cc23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: The substitution of "tiger" for "nigger" in eeny-meeny came long after my childhood. While we were forbidden to use "nigger" in general, that is, in expressions such as "nigger toes" for Brazil nuts or "niggerheads" for coneflowers, or "nigger in the woodpile" for the obscure bad factor, I don't remember that eeny-meeny was out-of-bounds. I think this was because our parents made a distinction between culturally-embedded usage and voluntary use. They would look askance at bowdlerization, but would avoid the incivility of gratuitous insult. Blackface was instrinsically bad, so_ Amos & Andy_ was out, nevermind that it was a staple in black households with radios. We employed a black daily maid, but, oddly, this was a mark of liberal enlightenment in that place & time: all the other households on the street had white maids only. Sorry, I seem to be wandering off the track here. A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 17:43:14 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:43:14 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:40 PM, I wrote: > At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very > far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than > Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime > (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still > suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto > Hobson's... OED online has no entry for "Hobbesian choice". The first cite for "Hobson's choice" is from 1660: ----- S. FISHER Rusticks Alarm Wks. (1679) 128 If in this Case there be no other (as the Proverb is) then Hobson's choice..which is, chuse whether you will have this or none. ------ arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 18:34:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:34:33 -0800 Subject: Hobbesian choice Message-ID: Here's my third contribution to "you/thou" studies. The OED's quote appears in an earlier form in the first printing: 1660 S. Fisher Rusticus ad academicos in exercitationibus expostulatoriis 88: He must needs have the worst or neither: such choice (as the Proverb is) is no other then Hobson's choice, which is, chuse whether thou wilt have this or none. Something big was evidently shakin' between 1660 and '79. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Hobbesian choice ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:40 PM, I wrote: > At this point, though, "Hobbesian choice" hadn't been tracked back very > far, though the reference to Hobson, a much less well-known person than > Hobbes, pretty much has to date back to the actual Hobson's lifetime > (c. 1544-1631, overlapping with Hobbes's, 1588-1679). So I was still > suspicious that Hobbes's name and ideas had gotten grafted onto > Hobson's... OED online has no entry for "Hobbesian choice". The first cite for "Hobson's choice" is from 1660: ----- S. FISHER Rusticks Alarm Wks. (1679) 128 If in this Case there be no other (as the Proverb is) then Hobson's choice..which is, chuse whether you will have this or none. ------ arnold __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Jan 29 19:11:22 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:11:22 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: In response to Matt's observation, I should make clear that it is not the case the the phenomenon which I am observing is not in speakers who have a merger or near-merger of the vowels in cot/caught, don/dawn, hod/hawed, cod/cawed. They vowels are distinct. What I see (and have seen in some speakers who are moving toward merger) is the loss of the upglide before the voiceless alveolar. Upon further investigation, I also see the loss before the alveolar nasal and also the voiceless labio-dental (f). But these same speakers, who are not merging, have a strong upglide before voiced alveolar stops and velar stops. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Jan 29 19:18:03 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:18:03 -0500 Subject: Low Back Vowel Query Message-ID: Please accept my apologies for my last post. It is riddled with grammatical solecisms. There shouldn't be so many negative and complex constructions in the first sentence. What is see is the (conditioned) loss of the glide in speakers who are not merging, in 3 contexts: alveolar nasal, voicless alveolar stop, and voiceless labio-dental fricative. My other observation is that it is the presence of the upglide that distinguishes the two vowels in speakers who have an apparent merger. I hope to do some commutation experiments, using natural and re-synthesized vowels ,to see how sensitive speakers are to the glide presence/absence in distinguishing nearly-merged vowels. The next hypothesis to examine is whether the gradual (or abrupt loss) of the glide is a factor in the mechanism of the merger, where the merger is occurring. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From AAllan at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 19:34:02 2005 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:34:02 EST Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" Message-ID: I noted this expression in the comment of a Boston doctor on NPR's Morning Edition January 19, meaning that a bright idea came along. But lights going off (as opposed to on) doesn't make sense to me. Found half a dozen other examples by googling, including: <<"The loss of speech, the melancholy, the behavioral problems that go along with mercury toxicity were identical to what Will was exhibiting and that's when I guess the light bulb went off," Redwood said. The light bulbs began to go off in the minds of other Georgia parents, as well, whose children were also diagnosed with autism.>> There are almost 14,000 Google hits for "light bulb went off," like this one: <> I'm old enough to think this metaphor comes from flash bulbs going off. But there are few Google examples of that. - Allan Metcalf From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jan 29 20:42:12 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:42:12 -0600 Subject: The Sanas Jazz, Jazz and Teas--(sexual origin of "jazz"?) Message-ID: [Original message from Jonathan Lighter, Jan. 29]: [...]However, if the sexual verb had been sufficiently regional, they mightn't have known of it. Ordinarily one could dismiss allegations of an earlier sexual meaning, but these seem to me to be so credible as to require consideration. [...] ************* I'd suggest caution in describing as "credible" any of the allegations about an earlier (say, pre-1913) sexual meaning of "jazz." I haven't yet seen even one account which fits that bill. Gerald Cohen P.S. Btw, note Dick Holbrook's comment (Our Word Jazz. in: Storyville, 1973-1974, 46-58; p. 52): "Gleeson has also repeatedly and flatly insisted that he never heard the word jazz used in a sex sense at that time [1914]--though he was no stranger to gutter slang." From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 29 21:01:25 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:01:25 -0500 Subject: make do --> make due Message-ID: extracted from a personal e-mail letter >>> We will have to reschedule our weekend visit. My sister just called to say she is making her semi annual visit the 15-20 [...] My apologies for the screw up. My sister is famous for last minute appearances but since she comes so rarely we make due and I need to capture her for some serious discussions[...] <<< -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 20:58:38 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:58:38 EST Subject: teas, teasi/ocht (heat, passion) Message-ID: Seosamh Mac Muir? (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104) Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 02:43 pm: (http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/board-profile.pl?action=editpost&postid=9378&page= 12465/11811) (http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=12465&post=9379#) ____________________________________ Go raibh maith agat a Lochlainn/Larry. Feicfimid tuilleadh beag eile ce/n passion go di/reach ata/ uaithi anseo. GRMA - thanks for getting back so quickly Lauren. Looking at what you received, below are words for passion. teasai/ocht (strong emotion, be it sexual, intellectual and such in it's own context) From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:12:45 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:12:45 EST Subject: {ronunciation of slender D in irish Message-ID: Thanks so much for the feedback. It is very helpful. Here is the main rule taught in Irish language classes in Ireland and USA on the slender T. The rule of Tir. The Irish pronunciation rule of the slender T Or the rule of Tir. Tir, land country can be pronounced correctly Cheer Tear Jeer. Every native speaker would understand no matter which I said. Posted by Padraig - a native speaker -- on Daltai Irish language discussion group Jan 28, 2005. I am not a native speaker. Though my grandparents were native speakers of Donegal dialect who emigrated to Greenpoint, Brooklyn.. They pronounced Tir Jeer. And Teas Jass. Thanks so much. Go raibh maith agat. Teas, pron. jass or chass or t'ass. Dan Cassidy From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:41:35 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:41:35 EST Subject: pronunciation of slender T in Irish Message-ID: Thanks so much for the feedback. It is very helpful. Here is the main rule taught in Irish language classes in Ireland and USA on the slender T. The rule of Tir. The Irish pronunciation rule of the slender T Or the rule of Tir. Tir, land country can be pronounced correctly Cheer Tear Jeer. Every native speaker would understand no matter which I said. Posted by Padraig - a native speaker -- on Daltai Irish language discussion group Jan 28, 2005. I am not a native speaker. Though my grandparents were native speakers of Donegal dialect who emigrated to Greenpoint, Brooklyn.. They pronounced Tir Jeer. And Teas Jass. Thanks so much. Go raibh maith agat. Teas, pron. jass or chass or t'ass. Dan Cassidy From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:53:57 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:53:57 EST Subject: German Irish language scholar Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" Message-ID: << Deir Quiggin fa dtaobh de t?: 'I have not noticed any tendency in Donegal for t? to pass into t?? as in parts of Connaught, Manx and Scotch Gaelic. The contact for t? is however broken very gradually and a glide resembling ? is heard.' Ni/ thig an cur si/os seo le Gaedhilge Theilinn. N?thear...t?, d? + sleamhna/n...n? t??...affricata cheart...i dTeilionn, aig o/g agus aig aosta.>> --Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" The southern Donegal dialect merges with Connaught and a glide resembling ? is heard. Daniel Cassidy From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 21:50:28 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:50:28 EST Subject: Slender T and D in Irish - notes on affricates, Eamonn Mhac an Fhailigh Message-ID: Notes on affricates: The slender T and D << d?, t? -- These Erris affricates are not very different from [those in] English...?jig? and...?cheer? respectively. There does seem however to be a difference, which is this: for t? as in English ?cheer? the tip of the tongue is up, and there is also some protrusion of the lips. For t? as in Erris Irish t?it? tuit, t?ax teach [i.e. t?it?, t?ax], the tip of the tongue is down against the lower teeth and the lips are spread. For the Erris Irish affricates, then, it may be said that the primary articulation is palatal, the secondary alveolar. The front of the tongue is raised to make a closure at the junction of the teeth-ridge and hard palate, and is then slowly released, causing friction in a narrowing between tongue and teeth-ridge, while the tip of the tongue remains against the lower front teeth... Plosive d? replaces affricate d? following ?. When it occurs in utterance final position it is unvoiced. Examples--?d?u:ru: stiu/rughadh, ba?d?u: baisteadh, e:?d?@xd e/isteacht, ma:?d?ir? maighistir, k?e?d? ceist. In sandhi plosive d? and t? regularly replace the corresponding affricates d? and t? respectively, preceding homorganic affricates, laterals, and nasals. For example in @ bant? d?il?i?g? _ag baint duilisg_ the t? of bant? is an unexploded plosive while the d? of d?il?i?g? is an affricate. Similarly in @ xid? d?el?ign?i: _a chuid deilgni/_ the d? of xid? is an unexploded plosive and the d? in d?el?ign?i: is an affricate.>> --Eamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, ?The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo? From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 22:09:26 2005 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:09:26 EST Subject: The January issue of The Vocabula Review is now online Message-ID: The January issue of The Vocabula Review is now online at www.vocabula.com Only the opening paragraphs of each feature are shown in this announcement. Breve New World: Thoughts on an Emergent Pidgin Kerr Houston Late last summer, as much of America pondered swift boats and WMDs, a group of bloggers and iced coffee aficionados focused instead upon an improbable but momentarily fascinating conjunction of neologism, corporate identity, and small-town law governing the entry of cattle into restaurants. In June of 2004, Dairy Queen had rolled out its MooLatte, a frozen coffee beverage that came in several different varieties. Shortly after, Slate's Timothy Noah attracted notice with a post arguing that the drink's name was uncomfortably close to the word mulatto and its potentially racist overtones. The Houston Press soon got into the act, with a phone conversation with a Dairy Queen spokesman, in which they suggested that five more flavors be added, which would allow the firm to market an Octaroonie. But when the spokesman responded, apparently in earnest, that "that's actually a pretty good idea," some observers wondered if the company was playing with a poker face ? a feeling compounded when, in August, Dairy Queen subsequently announced that any customer bringing a cow to a participating restaurant would receive a free MooLatte. Over the next few months, the Web hummed with reports of ordinances governing the passage of livestock into eateries, and with opinions regarding the appropriateness of the product name (including a further posting by Noah that pointed to a Senegalese film entitled Moolaade, which was concerned with female genital mutilation). More ... The Mermaid Heinz Insu Fenkl Recently, as I was waiting in line at the local Starbucks, I overheard two customers arguing about the Starbucks' logo. Is it a siren or a mermaid? The current logo doesn't give enough visual information, as one customer pointed out, but the original logo was a creature with the upper half of a woman and a split fish tail ? a mermaid by his reckoning. The other customer pointed out that Starbucks refers to the image as a siren. Could they be wrong about their own corporate logo? The argument was lively enough to perk the interest of other customers, and soon various bits of interesting information came up, including reference to an online debate about the nature of mermaid sexuality and, specifically, regarding the reproductive organs of Disney's Ariel. I, myself, did not join in this debate but merely kept within earshot, considering the price of a latte well worth this synchronistic field research. More ... Blog, Bloggers, Blague Joseph Epstein No big surprise, I suppose, in Merriam-Webster's recent announcement that blog was the word most looked up on its Internet sites during the past year. Bloggers were much in the news; in fact, they often turned the direction of the news, and made a fair amount of news on their own. Bloggers caught up with many campaign lies during the past presidential election; by catching him out in shoddy journalistic practice, they cost Dan Rather an honorable departure from a long career. More ... Foggy Blogs David Isaacson Bloggers are to old-fashioned journal writers as joggers to runners: they are narcissists rather than genuine self-lovers. The word blog means a personal journal that is made available on the Web. In other words, another example in our tell-all, confessional culture of information we seldom need and ought not to want. True, some bloggers not only have an axe to grind but priceless information to publish we'd not otherwise have. Imagine if I. F. Stone's "Weekly" were a daily blog! And Joseph Epstein is right: a few dedicated fact-checkers helped to bring a hasty end to Dan Rather's career. But with some exceptions, bloggers pretend to be "sharing" their private, and sometimes even their intimate thoughts with a few privileged friends. They are the early twenty-first-century equivalent of that remarkable moment in Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest when Earnest, noticing Cicely Cardew writing in her diary, asks "What is that?" and she replies, "Oh, this is simply a very young girl's record of her own thoughts and impressions, and consequently meant for publication." More ... A Stylish Inauguration Speech Richard Lederer More than four decades ago, on January 20, 1961, thousands of visitors converged on Washington, D.C., for the inauguration of our thirty-fifth president, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. A blizzard had struck the eastern seaboard that day. The streets of the capital were clogged with snow and stranded automobiles, but the inaugural ceremony went on, and a new president delivered one of the most memorable addresses in American history. More ... Two Poems Melodica The guests arrive, their coats are hung. They linger at the entrance praising the fixtures and the paint. The hostess peals with pleasantries and laughter. She seats them (after showing the home) to Mozart, and a meal: More ... The Elder Statesman English Romantic Poets and ... Hollywood? Clark Elder Morrow I am always amazed at how well women can remember the earliest incidents of their youth. I'm lucky if I can recall a single incident from kindergarten, yet my wife and my sister tell me that they remember much of their third and fourth years on earth. No doubt a clear conscience makes for a limpid memory. More ... The Critical Reader Key Words of Our Times: Curling up with a Good Dimension on a Rainy Day Mark Halpern Albert Einstein cannot be held responsible for the misuse made of some of his ideas and utterances. It's not his fault that many people think that the General Theory of Relativity, his revolutionary concept of how gravity shapes space, somehow means that nothing is really true since everything is really relative to ... well, something. Nor is it his fault that many people think that there is a fourth dimension that, if they keep their eyes wide open, they will be able to spot someday before it can get away. Modern physicists, however, are largely responsible for a kind of confusion that is widespread among the general, nonscientific population, and that originated with Einstein's great discoveries. That is the notion that science has discovered a fourth, fifth, or even an eleventh dimension that you can see only if you have a PhD in physics. This misconception is a serious one because it seems to confirm the nonscientists' gloomy feeling that what scientists are talking about is utterly beyond them, and that it's hopeless to try to understand anything they say ? not the frame of mind that we want an enlightened citizenry to be in. More ... Shibboleths Frisking the Governor's Daughter: On Puns John Kilgore There was this fabulous chicken, unlike any other. Her motion was so fluid, so swift, people said she was sheer poultry in motion. Humblest of tropes, the paronomasia ? "pun" to its siblings and golf buddies ? typically earns not an appreciative chuckle but a groan of pain. It can inspire Bronx cheers or mock insults, like John Dennis's declaration that "The man who would make so vile a pun would not scruple to pick a pocket," an upside-down compliment that seems, nonetheless, founded in real annoyance. Clearly we think the punster has somehow cheated, though in a way merely foolish and petty, childish perhaps but not evil. What could lie at the root of this feeling? The answer, I think, has to do with the basic nature of listening: with the mental gymnastics we continually perform, without quite knowing it, in order to understand even the simplest phrase. Unjustly despised, the pun turns out to be surprisingly profound, not a silly game with language but part of its fundamental nature. More ... Postcards from Babel Turtles All the Way Down Amalia Gnanadesikan My spam was unusually entertaining the other day. Unlike most, it offered me not health, wealth, or satisfaction, but merely enlightenment and information. It came not from Nigeria but from Turkey. Among other things, it claimed that Turkish is the world's most ancient language, and that whole families of other languages were artificially created by making anagrams out of ancient Turkish words. The similarity of the French expression vis-?-vis to Turkish y?z y?ze (both meaning "face-to-face") is supposedly evidence of French being but a camouflaged derivative of Turkish. More ... Bethumped with Words Four Northern Words Flenched Bill Casselman Let us take up the whaler's flenching knife and slice away the circumambient lexical blubber from four stout words of the north. Here is a setting of four gelid gems for a winter night's perusal. One gives warmth; one gives taste; one spits in the arrogant eye of the OED, and one brings madness near. More ... Please renew my soul. ? John Maybury I have just renewed via Amazon. Will try to talk up your site to my contacts. I think it's well worth the reasonable subscription rate. ? Rick Horgan I have stolen a Vocabula subscription. How 'bout that? I just renewed. ... You gotta admit it's a steal, and bound to be the best value I'll get for my hard-earned in '05. ? David Murray-Smith I thought I had lost Vocabula! Help me connect anew! ? Charles Hunter Vocabula is like nothing I?ve seen on the Internet. $9.95 is far too modest. ... I am overwhelmed by the wealth of resources available with this subscription, and all the helpful functionality of the site. ? Tom McGlinn I have renewed my subscription. I can't imagine being without it. ? Jenell Larson I can no longer imagine my life without TVR. ? 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Vocabula logo is a registered service mark of Vocabula Communications Company. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 22:40:44 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:40:44 -0800 Subject: make do --> make due In-Reply-To: <20050129155934.W55215@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > extracted from a personal e-mail letter > >>> > We will have to reschedule our weekend > visit. My sister just called to say she is making her semi annual > visit the > 15-20 > [...] My apologies for the screw up. My sister is famous for last > minute > appearances but since she comes so rarely we make due and I need to > capture > her for some serious discussions[...] > <<< ah, an old friend. my current file on this (about to be amended by mark's addition) goes: ----- make do > make due Edward Carpenter, ?Two jurors got normal pay?, PADN 12/15/04, p. 4: Two San Mateo County public employees... were lucky enough to not miss a single paycheck [while serving on the Scott Peterson jury], while other jurors would have had to make due with with a $15 a day court stipend... thousands of Google examples: 01/26/03 - Posted from the Daily Record newsroom. Charities try to make due with less cash. ...Charities try to make due with less cash Colleges staying afloat ... www.dailyrecord.com/business/ forecast2003/012603-charities.html ...Cities trying to figure out how to make due with less by Tom Robertson, Minnesota Public Radio February 21, 2003 Larger view. Bemidji ... news.minnesota.publicradio.org/ features/2003/02/21_robertsont_lgacuts/ Cubans make due with limited assistive technology. Even with a more independent culture, Cuba's streets and lack of resources provides barriers. ... www.atnet.org/news/2003/feb03/020101.htm ----- arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 22:45:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:45:17 -0800 Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" Message-ID: Not old enough, Allan! Or not lowbrow enough! It has long, long been common practice for cartoonists to show a bulb lighting up in a thought balloon to represent a "bright" idea. I once saw these caqrtoon bulbs referred to specifically as "Mazda bulbs," but never bothered to probe why this brand was specified. The cartoonists may have gotten the idea from elsewhere - maybe even a lightbulb advertisement. JL AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: AAllan at AOL.COM Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I noted this expression in the comment of a Boston doctor on NPR's Morning Edition January 19, meaning that a bright idea came along. But lights going off (as opposed to on) doesn't make sense to me. Found half a dozen other examples by googling, including: <<"The loss of speech, the melancholy, the behavioral problems that go along with mercury toxicity were identical to what Will was exhibiting and that's when I guess the light bulb went off," Redwood said. The light bulbs began to go off in the minds of other Georgia parents, as well, whose children were also diagnosed with autism.>> There are almost 14,000 Google hits for "light bulb went off," like this one: > I'm old enough to think this metaphor comes from flash bulbs going off. But there are few Google examples of that. - Allan Metcalf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 22:51:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:51:38 -0800 Subject: {ronunciation of slender D in irish Message-ID: Can the well attested 19th C. "jasm" = "energy" be accounted for as part of this cluster? It is also logically possible that the adj. "jazzy" came first, if I read the Irish "teasai" correctly. Do I ? JL Daniel Cassidy wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Daniel Cassidy Subject: {ronunciation of slender D in irish ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks so much for the feedback. It is very helpful. Here is the main rule taught in Irish language classes in Ireland and USA on the slender T. The rule of Tir. The Irish pronunciation rule of the slender T Or the rule of Tir. Tir, land country can be pronounced correctly Cheer Tear Jeer. Every native speaker would understand no matter which I said. Posted by Padraig - a native speaker -- on Daltai Irish language discussion group Jan 28, 2005. I am not a native speaker. Though my grandparents were native speakers of Donegal dialect who emigrated to Greenpoint, Brooklyn.. They pronounced Tir Jeer. And Teas Jass. Thanks so much. Go raibh maith agat. Teas, pron. jass or chass or t'ass. Dan Cassidy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 29 22:58:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:58:29 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other. Anyone else notice this? I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." E pede Herculem, JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 22:59:31 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:59:31 -0800 Subject: "light bulbs began to go off" In-Reply-To: <9b.57f8bf93.2f2d3f2a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 11:34 AM, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > I noted this expression in the comment of a Boston doctor on NPR's > Morning > Edition January 19, meaning that a bright idea came along. But lights > going off > (as opposed to on) doesn't make sense to me. isn't this just the 'become active/activated' sense of "go off"? admittedly, for light bulbs we have two senses in conflict, but that's not so incredibly rare. arnold From douglas at NB.NET Sat Jan 29 22:42:50 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:42:50 -0500 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050129164343.93076.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >... I agree that no SF Bulletin editor in his right mind would have >printed "jazz" in 1912 if he had the slightest suspicion that the word was >indecent. But "the word is indecent" seems stronger than what would be implied by the pre-existence (even well-known) of "jazz" meaning "f*ck". Many verbs routinely mean exactly "f*ck" (among other meanings): even such basic ones as "do", "have", "know", "make". There is no shying away from these verbs in general. Other verbs may even have "f*ck" as a dominant or very likely meaning, without causing any avoidance of a homonymous noun: e.g., "bed", "prong", "pork". Suppose that ca. 1900 "jazz" was used casually like "fizz" and/or like "zig-zag" and/or like "jasm" -- and also widely used as a verb equivalent (in denotation) to the F-word. I think in this case "jazz" would have been printed freely, at least as long as it didn't appear as a transitive verb. By comparison, when I was young[er] (ca. 1960) it was common knowledge that (e.g.) "He was banging her" referred to sex and this sentence would not have appeared in the newspaper (AFAIK), but all sorts of other uses of "bang" were OK, even "He gets a bang out of her" for example. OTOH, the F-word itself has generally been treated as indecent in all applications, and I agree that "jazz" cannot have been such a word. But I think there are only a few such globally unacceptable words. -- Doug Wilson From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 29 23:07:45 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:07:45 -0600 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter >Sent: Sat 1/29/2005 9:57 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > > One could cheat by saying "You!" after the spelling and pointing to the next victim. My remembrance is that cheating could be done with all of these (one potato, two potato was the other most common one). If the count didn't land on the "right" person at the end, the person counting would append: "My mo-ther said to pick [and the next word would be "you" if that brought forth the desired result, otherwise it would go on as ...] the ve-ry best one [could stop here] and that would be [or "is", which reduces the number of syllables by one] YOU [which could, as said above, be said as a word or spelled out]" Watching the person counting going through the mental gymnastics to force the desired outcome removed all semblance of randomness. I always preferred elimnations by "rock paper scissors", until somebody would throw in "dynamite", which beat rock and paper, but lost to scissors because they could cut the fuse. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 29 23:16:18 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:16:18 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse In-Reply-To: <20050129225829.59114.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" > threatening to oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? another old friend. i last wrote about it on Language Log in november: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001671.html arnold From DanCas1 at AOL.COM Sat Jan 29 23:43:36 2005 From: DanCas1 at AOL.COM (Daniel Cassidy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:43:36 EST Subject: Cut out the mick jazz (teas), Cassidy (last postl) Message-ID: A Chairde (My Friends): On the sexual aspects of teas and jazz, Teas (pron jass, chass, or t'ass) does mean ardor and passion. (See O?Donaill, p. 1221.) Teas gra/ means passion of love; teas cra/bhaidh means fervent devotion. So there may be something of a sexual connotation to teas or jazz. Though I do agree with G. Cohen that Irish American journalists would never use jazz (teas) in that way. I am not going to bore the list with all the jazz (teas, fervor, heat) about Irish Catholics and sexuality. But much of it is true. I know. I am an Irish Catholic. A related noun teasai/ocht, m. (gs. ~a) is a common word in Irish for passion, though it can also mean a hot temper and feverishness. It can also mean the passion of suffering. In my own Brooklyn Irish-Sicilian-Jewish family, sometimes the heat, ardor, or passion would be misplaced and someone might say, cut that jazz, or I don? t wannna hear that jazz, Danny, meaning all that heat and ardor and passion. Finally, there were no Irish printing presses in Ireland until the late 19th century and no Irish language popular press, scholarly press, or publications. They had been banned by the Tudors in the 16th century and later under the Penal Laws in the 18th century. Though Protestant evangelicals in the Elizabethan period did devise a Gaelic typeface for Protestant religious texts only. So, ironically pre-1927 most of the best sources are in Ms. form from the 6th-11th CE. Interestingly, these Irish words of orality often play out in strings like jazz, pizzazz, fizz, fizzle, and sizzle. Orality and oral sources are important and often overlooked in all the jazz (teas, heat) over published first sources. But that?s an old debate and a lotta old teas (jass, passion), as most people know. Though, I do apologize if my Jazz (Teas, ardor, heat) gets on people?s noives (nerves.) But it ain?t all razzmatazz. Rois mo/rtas, A burst or blast of high spirits, exultation, pride. My posts all concern Irish and Scots Gaelic because that is the focus of my book projects. I might add there were people in my family who also spoke Yiddish and Sicilian. My Uncle Franky was a Brooklyn bookmaker and a shtarker and macher (a macher is a big shot, a shtarker is a tough guy.) His wife, my Aunt Margaret, was the daughter of Irish-speakers from the north of Ireland, but she kept a kosher house in the Bronx for the 60 years she was married to Uncle Frank. So I grew up with a fair amount of Yiddish. Today hybridity is heresy in American scholarly discourse. In my family it was everyday life. My Uncle Tommy spoke Sicilian. He was a longshoreman and gentleman. . I will go balbh (mute) again for a few months.. I don't want my mick teas (jass) to frazzle any scientific English noives (nerves.) Peace, Beannacht, Daniel Cassidy Jazz Teas, heat, passion, excitement, high spirit, highest temperature. Pizzazz Pi/osa theas, piece or bit of heat, passion, excitement, high spirit, highest temperature. Fizz fe/ theas, less than heat, passion, excitement. Fizzle Fe/ theas uile, less than all heat, excitement, passion, etc. Sizzle Sa theas uile, in a state of all heat, excitement, passion, etc. Frazzle (fia-rois uile.) No relation to teas. A total wild unraveling. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 01:37:50 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:37:50 EST Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800, howard schrager writes: > Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell > New York > Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken > in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? One I learned in (I think) elementary school: Cin, Cin, a needle and a pin, and that's how you spell "Cincinnati" I don't know how widespread that one was. I lived in Louisville, KY, a hundred miles downriver from Cincinnati, so the spelling of the latter city was more important for us than for most of the rest of the country. Probably irrelevant, but are you familiar with the song My gal's a corker She's a New Yorker I've bought her everything to keep her in style She's got a head of hair Just like a grizzly bear That's where my mo-o-oney go-o-oe! This stanza is sung endlessly, with differently lines 5 and 6, until the singer's imagination (or the audience's patience) runs out, e.g. She's got a pair of lips/ just like potato chips She's got a pair of hips/just like two battleships - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 01:40:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:40:56 -0500 Subject: Battered Child (1962); Children's Rhymes (1941); Sunny Roll Message-ID: BATTERED CHILD I read in the Daily News (from AP) today that the person who coined "battered child" has died. (OED) b. battered baby, an infant exhibiting symptoms (the battered baby syndrome) resulting from repeated injuries inflicted upon it over a period; battered wife, woman, a woman who has been repeatedly injured or otherwise ill-treated by her partner. [1962 C. H. KEMPE et al. in Jrnl. Amer. Med. Assoc. 7 July 17/1 The battered-child syndrome is a term used by us to characterize a clinical condition in young children who have received serious physical abuse, generally from a parent or foster parent.] 1963 Brit. Med. Jrnl. 21 Dec. 1558 (heading) Multiple epiphysial injuries in babies (?*battered baby? syndrome). Ibid. 1560/1 The x-ray changes in the ?battered baby? are..like those often described in infantile scurvy. (GOOGLE NEWS) U.S. psychiatrist Brandt Steele, who helped break ground on child abuse, dies DENVER (AP) - Dr. Brandt Steele, a psychiatrist who helped pioneer the treatment of child abuse victims and coined the term "battered child," died Jan. 19. He was 97. In a 1962 paper, Steele and longtime associate Dr. C. Henry Kempe, a pediatrician, became the first to detail the physical and psychological symptoms of child abuse by parents, dubbing the result "battered child syndrome." The paper was pronounced one of the 20th century's 50 most important medical contributions by the Journal of the American Medical Association. Steele and Kempe also were first to document that abusers themselves often were childhood victims of abuse and neglect. Steele grew up in Indiana, attended Indiana University and studied under Alfred Kinsey, who later became famous for his research on sexuality. He later joined the faculty of the University of Colorado Medical School. -------------------------------------------------------------- CHILDREN'S RHYMES I've been looking into more of these. What else could follow "battered child"? Here are some from the Christian Science Monitor. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Jump-Rope Rhymes HORACE REYNOLDS. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 11, 1941. p. 12 (1 page): ... "One, two, buckle my shoe, Three, four, shut the door, Five, six, pick up sticks, Seven, eight, lay them straight" ... "Way down South, where bananas grow, A fly stepped on an elephant's toe. The elephant cried with tears in his eyes, 'You big brute, take someone your size!'" ... "Done the Mississippi where the steamboats 'putt,' An elephant stepped on a cocktoach's foot. 'Ouch,' cried the cockroach, with tears in his eyes, 'Why don't you pick on someone your size?'" ... "Missus Sippi lived by the shore, She had children three or more. The oldest one was twenty-four. How many children did she have?" Little Girl Jump-Rope Chants: Folk Rhymes in the Making; From Nantucket To New Mexico Wandering Minstrels Rhythmic Tap Of Jumping Feat Special to The Christian Science MonitorMarian Gregg.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, 1941. p. 9 (1 page): ... Charlie Chaplin went to France To teach the ladies how to dance; First the heel, then the toe, Round and round and round we go. Bow to the queen, Salute to the king, Turn your back to the submarine.. ... Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, turn around Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, touch the ground, Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, tie your shoe. Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, that will do. ... Mabel, Mabel, set the table, Don't forget the vinegar, salt and red hot pepper. ... Amos and Andy, Sugar and candy, I spy down; AMos and Andy, Sugar and candy, I spy up. Sidewalk Rhymes FRANCIS RUSSELL. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 4, 1951. p. 8 (1 page): ... Eeny, meeny, miney. mo, Catch a nigger by the toe. If he hollers, let him go, Eeny, maany, miney, mo. ... Inty, minty, dibbeldy fig, Deelya, meelya, dominig, Eitcha, peitcha, dibbeldy eitcha Uliga, buliga, boo, Out goes Y-O-U. ... No more pencils, no more books, No more teachers' cross-eyed looks. ...,,, One, two, button my shoe, Three, four, shut the door, Five, six, pick up sticks, Seven, eight, lay them straight, Nine, ten, start all over again. ... One, eat a plum, put your right foot over, Two, button my shoe, etc., Three, come with me, Four, shut the door, Five, I'm alive, Six, pick up sticks, Seven, I'm in heaven, Eight, shut the gate, Nine, be on time, Ten, start all over again. ... Eeny, meeny, Mussolini, Hit him on the bumble beany. ... Eeny, meeny, miney mo, Catch a Jap by the toe, If he hollers, make him say: "I surrender U.S.A." -------------------------------------------------------------- SUNNY ROLL (WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?) I ate at Tiny Thai, 694 Ninth Avenue between West 47th And West 48th streets. I had a "sunny roll." Sunny, one so true? (GOOGLE) New York Daily News - City Life - Dishes with a little kick at ... ... is a wonderful warmup, a bowlful of coconut broth spiked with spicy Thai herbs and tender slices of white-meat chicken. Meanwhile, the "Sunny roll" ($3.50) is ... www.nydailynews.com/city_life/ story/247147p-211705c.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 01:54:53 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:54:53 EST Subject: hooey Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were > using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed telephony" > and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault > rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or simply a "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime around 1980, due to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system in which a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of limited range so that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the area simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell to another, your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell you are entering (hence the need for computer power). The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they expect to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either non-existent or is out of service due to battle damage. A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets had over the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German radiotelephones. When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why don't you simply call it a "guttural"? - James A. Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 02:09:09 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:09:09 -0500 Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... (1948); "Never been to Yale" Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800, howard schrager writes: > Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell > New York > Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken > in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? I'm working on them. It's not like Chicago or New York pay me a lot of money for this! Author Withers, Carl, comp. Title A rocket in my pocket, the rhymes and chants of young Americans. Illustrated by Susanne Suba. Imprint [New York] H. Holt [c1948] Pg. 101: A knife and a fork A bottle and a cork That's the way To spell NEW YORK. Pg. 102: Chicken in the car And the car won't go That's the way to spell CHICAGO. Lots more of interest here! Pg. 3: I says, you says, We all want ices. Pg. 11: Girls are dandy, Made of candy-- That's what little irls are made of. Boys are rotten, Made of cotton-- That's what little boys are made of. Pg. 15: I've got a rocket In my pocket; I cannot stop to play. Away it goes! I've burnt my toes. It's Independence Day. Pg. 16: I love my wife and I love my baby. I love my biscuits sopped in gravy. Pg. 40: Charlie Chuck Married a duck Duck died Charlied cried. Pg. 42: Beef and bacon's out of season; I want a knife to eat my peas on. Pg. 67: Apple on a stick Makes me sick; Gives me aa stomache ache. Two, four, six. Pg. 67: I should worry, I should care, I should marry a millionaire; He should die, I should cry-- Then I'd marry a richer guy. Pg. 77: Eat fresh fried fish free at the fish fry. Pg. 128: I'm rubber and you're glue. What you say to me will bounce back and stick to you. Pg. 159: You be the ice cream, I'll be the freezer. You be the lemon and I'll be the squeezer. Pg. 163: U R 2 good 2 B 4 got 10. (You are too good to be forgotten.) Pg. 168: I made you look, I made you look. I made you buy a penny book. Pg. 172: Laugh before you eat, Cry before you sleep. Touch black, touch black! You'll never get it back. Pg. 175: If you stub your tow, You're bound to meet your beau. Pg. 193: Oh, you may drive a horse to water, But a pencil must be lead. -------------------------------------------------------------- "NEVER BEEN TO YALE" MISS MARY MAC ALL DRESSED IN BLACK: TONGUE TWISTERS, JUMP-ROPE THYMES AND OTHER CHILDREN'S LORE FROM NEW ENGLAND by Scott E. Hastings, Jr. Little Rock, AK: August Houst Publishers, Inc. 1990 This is a fine collection, but no dates are given. (As with much of this stuff.) Here's one for Yale. Pg. 115: I've never been to Paris, I've never been to Yale, The only place I've ever been is the good old county jail. One day when I was sleeping I looked upon the wall, The quiddys (_cooties?_) and the bedbugs were having a game of ball. The score was two to zero, the quiddys were ahead The bedbugs hit a homerun and knocked me out of bed! From gorion at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 30 02:30:46 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:30:46 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: <6920430746197484983@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: By the mid-early 80s outside of Denver, we had Ink-a bink A bottle of ink. [The] cork fell off And yoooooouu stink! I learned it from my older sister. On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:07:35 -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > The version that we had (in St. Louis, though I'm a native of Marshall, > Texas, about 35 mi. west of "Sreepote") was: > > Ink-a stink-a > Bottle of ink-a > Oh, how you do stink! > It ain't none of me > It ain't none of you > It ain't nobody but > Y-O-U! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 03:36:59 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:36:59 -0500 Subject: "I should marry a millionaire" (1913); Republican/Horse Thief & Will Rogers (1925) Message-ID: (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Monday, June 16, 1913 Syracuse/, New York/ ...SHOULD I SHOULD cAre. I SHOULD MARRY A mIllIonAIre. If he SHOULD dIe. 1 SHOULD.....newspAper. nevcr'Slxey. oIl mutlrrA SHOULD bA AddrxMwII to to lu emplojn flf.. Pg. 8, col. 5: I should worry, I should care. I should marry a millionaire. If he should die, I should cry; I should marry another guy. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("I should marry a millionaire") 1. OUT OF THE MOUTHS -- JAMES NEILD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 19, 1926. p. XX12 (1 page) 2. B.A. Botkin, Folklore Expert, Is Dead By MURRAY ILLSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 31, 1975. p. 30 (1 page): Dr. Botkin's investigators found that one of the most popular and widespread children's chants was: I should worry, I should care, I should marry a millionaire. He should die, I should cry. I should marry another guy. Another was: Take a local, Take an express, Don't get off Till you reach success. (...) One of its characteristic anecdotes was the following: "Why," asked the Northerner, "are you a Democrat?" "Well," drawled the Southerner, "my father was a Democrat, my grandfather was a Democrat, and my great-grandfather was a Democrat, so of course I'm a Democrat." "Ah," said the Northerner, "suppose your father had been a horse thief, what would you have been then?" "Oh, I guess I'd a been a Republican." --Buffalo Commercial. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("horse thief") The Worst Story I Have Heard Today By Will Rogers. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1925. p. 6 (1 page): He (Gov. Al Smith--ed.) said one time President Roosevelt was making a political speech in Maine; he asked if there was a Democrat in the audience. An old, long-whiskered man arose in the back of the room and said: "I am a Democrat. My father was a Democrat, and my grandfather was a Democrat." Roosevelt then said: "Then if your father had been a horse theif and your grandfather had been a hose thief, you would be a horse thief?" "No," he said. "I would be a Republican." Now, I claim that a story to be good must be true or based on truth. That story Al told is not true. In the first place, Roosevelt wouldn't be speaking in Maine. No politican ever wasted speeches in a State he already controlled. And in the second place, all Republicans are not horse thieves. At the biggest estimate not over 90 per cent are horse thieves. Every once in a while you meet a pretty nice one. Coming to Terms With Politics; Book World SAFIRE'S POLITICAL DICTIONARY. By William Safire (Random House, 845 pp. $15.95) Reviewed by Norman J. Ornstein. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 20, 1978. p. D13 (1 page) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 03:55:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:55:30 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050129103740.D42351@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 10:39 AM -0500 1/29/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Laurence Horn said: >>>> >Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In >our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > >Eenie meenie meinie moe >Catch a tiger by the toe >If he hollers let him go >My mother said to pick this very one >Y-O-U spells you > > ><<< > >NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". > Yeah, we had that version too; as noted, it was just the first three lines that were invariant. L From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 03:58:02 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:58:02 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: My mother told me to pick the very best one O-U-T spells out goes YOU! It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Laurence Horn said: >>>> > Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In > our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > > <<< > > NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". > > > mark by hand > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 04:33:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:33:21 -0500 Subject: Cohen and "jazz" Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: "The etymology of 'jazz' is still open for discussion. I.e., if the crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting 'jazz' (in: 'Come on, the old jazz!') might plausibly derive from now obsolete 'jasm' (energy, force). The incantation would then have meant roughly 'May the force be with me.'" In similar situations, I've heard the bruthuhs shout, "Snake Mary! (or, perhaps,) ... Merry!/merry! Come on! Hunch me, Snake/snake!" Unfortunately for further discussion, I have no idea what the referent was. Obviously, this was some kind of call for luck. "Hunch" among blacks can, as a verb, mean "poke someone in the ribs with one's elbow so as to get that person's attention." Hence, I assume that the player was calling upon a deity of good fortune to hunch him and supply him with whatever mojo it took for his play to win. Further deponent sayeth not. -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 04:40:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:40:54 -0800 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: Ah, Doug, Doug. So innocent. As recently as the 1950s - make that the 1960s - in fact, up till the late '70s if I recall correctly, the censorship of certain words was still so strong that no TV show in prime time or later would or could transmit any colloquialism that had a well-known sexual or scatological meaning, unless, as in the exx. you suggest, no simple synopnym ws available. You may recall the more recent minor uproar in far more permissive times, the early '90s, when the word "sucks" = "stinks" was broadcast for apparently the first time on network TV. Nothing came of the protests, but they were widely and seriously reported. (Nobody had ever objected to "stinks," so far as I know.) Here's an example of what could happen from 1969. Following the great success of NBC's "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In," ABC tried its hand at a comedy show in a similar format - lots of one-liners and black-out comedy. This show sported the double entendre name of "Turn-On" (get it?). The high point for me was when a busty blonde in an evening dress looked directly into the camera's eye and cooed, "Richard Nixon is the titular head of the Republican Party." That was it. Blackout. The outburst of condemnation for this unbelievable indecency knocked the show off the air after one episode. Thank God I caught it. Lest you think it was the inclusion of the President's name in the gag that brought the hammer down, the various "concerned" editorials that I read were equally in the "liberal" press of the day, and none of them indicated that "political satire" was the problem. Sure, "make" and "do," etc., have sexual meanings and were not banned - but communication would be almost impossible without these words- and I guarandamntee you that if a TV star or journalist of 35 or 40 years ago had uttered either one with the right intonation or facial expression, said individual would be pounding the pavement within forty-eight hours. In those days even the hint of a sexual or scatological nuance would get a TV employee in trouble with the network. (Janet Jackson could not have malfunctioned back then because the entire halftime show as presented in 2004 would have been banned ahead of time as obscene.) Much greater license, of course, was permitted in books, but not in movies or magazines. About 1966 Ralph Ginzburg was sent to Federal prison for a few years - not for *publishing* his high-class and pricey erotic art magazine "Eros," but for *humorously* mailing the subscription ads from - are you sitting down? - INTERCOURSE and BLUE BALL Pennsylvania ! When the Merriam-Webster 3 included "bed" as a transitive verb in 1961, this was cited as one more (idiot) reason why this greatest American dictionary should not be purchased or referred to. The "F" word was not included, reportedly because during a meeting held to decide the issue, nobody there, proponents included, could bring themselves to say the word itself - in a closed meeting of some of the top lexicographers of their generation! And all that was in the "wild" '60s. Even now, Hollywood movies are dubbed for network broadcast to remove any bad words. Had anyone on any aboveboard paper in 1912-13 known of the sexual senses of "jazz" and knowingly allowed the word to be printed in any sense at all, he or she would likely have faced a misdemeanor charge or worse. JL Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >... I agree that no SF Bulletin editor in his right mind would have >printed "jazz" in 1912 if he had the slightest suspicion that the word was >indecent. But "the word is indecent" seems stronger than what would be implied by the pre-existence (even well-known) of "jazz" meaning "f*ck". Many verbs routinely mean exactly "f*ck" (among other meanings): even such basic ones as "do", "have", "know", "make". There is no shying away from these verbs in general. Other verbs may even have "f*ck" as a dominant or very likely meaning, without causing any avoidance of a homonymous noun: e.g., "bed", "prong", "pork". Suppose that ca. 1900 "jazz" was used casually like "fizz" and/or like "zig-zag" and/or like "jasm" -- and also widely used as a verb equivalent (in denotation) to the F-word. I think in this case "jazz" would have been printed freely, at least as long as it didn't appear as a transitive verb. By comparison, when I was young[er] (ca. 1960) it was common knowledge that (e.g.) "He was banging her" referred to sex and this sentence would not have appeared in the newspaper (AFAIK), but all sorts of other uses of "bang" were OK, even "He gets a bang out of her" for example. OTOH, the F-word itself has generally been treated as indecent in all applications, and I agree that "jazz" cannot have been such a word. But I think there are only a few such globally unacceptable words. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 04:46:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:46:17 -0800 Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... Message-ID: "She's got a pair of tits/ Just like two boxing mitts." "I am not making this up." -- Dave Barry. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:39:39 -0800, howard schrager writes: > Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork...That's how you spell > New York > Does anyone know the origin of the above street rhyme and its mate, Chicken > in the Car and the Car Can't Go... That's how you spell Chicago? One I learned in (I think) elementary school: Cin, Cin, a needle and a pin, and that's how you spell "Cincinnati" I don't know how widespread that one was. I lived in Louisville, KY, a hundred miles downriver from Cincinnati, so the spelling of the latter city was more important for us than for most of the rest of the country. Probably irrelevant, but are you familiar with the song My gal's a corker She's a New Yorker I've bought her everything to keep her in style She's got a head of hair Just like a grizzly bear That's where my mo-o-oney go-o-oe! This stanza is sung endlessly, with differently lines 5 and 6, until the singer's imagination (or the audience's patience) runs out, e.g. She's got a pair of lips/ just like potato chips She's got a pair of hips/just like two battleships - Jim Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 04:54:21 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:54:21 -0500 Subject: Kissing poem (1969); Peanut Butter poem (1922) Message-ID: Here are two I've seen in several books. The kissing poem must be earlier than this. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Coshocton Tribune Tuesday, February 25, 1969 Coshocton, Ohio ...then COMES MARRIAGE: then here she COMES with a BABY CARRIAGE." .Liquor j n.....complex .Childhood Chants remembered: "FIRST COMES love.. Pg. 6, col. 1 (Bert Bacharach column from Los Angeles): FADED PHRASES: "She's a caution," "Little pitchers have big ears" and "He's dead to the world"...Childhood chants remembered: "First comes love, then comes marriage; then here she comes with a baby carriage." Daily Herald Sunday, July 07, 1985 Chicago, Illinois ...favorite anONymous. A PEANUT A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD It's heart was all a.....Choo-choo train comes round THE Toot PEANUT When THE Dark Comes Dancing. a.. Bee Wednesday, June 14, 1922 Danville, Virginia ...powder pufts. Life. Toot Toot A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD track, Its heart was.....THE came thundering past Toot Toot1. PEANUT Butter. Nowadays. H. E. says an.. Pg. 4, col. 2: _Toot! Toot!_ A peanut sat on the railroad track, Its heart was all a-flutter, The 3:45 came thundering past-- Toot! Toot! Peanut Butter. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:04:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:04:16 -0800 Subject: "I should marry a millionaire" (1913); Republican/Horse Thief & Will Rogers (1925) Message-ID: This joke just came to mind and I'd better record it for Posterity. I believe I saw it in some 19th century magazine. Maybe it's not that funny after all. After the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Court House, Southern soldiers were given parole on the sole condition that they endorse a paper pledging their permanent allegiance to the duly elected Government of the United States. During one of these signings, after many and many a erbel soldier had accepted his pardon from the government of Uncle Sam, an old grizzled veteran of Joe Johnston's army appeared before the Yankee officer to be paroled. After reading the document, the old veteran looked the hated Yankee in the eye, and said with bitterness, "Well, we guv you *H--l* at Chickamaugy!" "Just sign the paper," exclaimed the Union man. "And no more of your sauce!" "I *said*, 'We guv you *H--l* at Chickamaugy!'" "Come, come!" expostulated the officer, whose patience with the old fellow was now wearing thin. "Come sign immediately or I'll have you arrested and imprisoned as the traitor that you have been and are !" The old man shifted his tobacco, and realizing his dire circumstances, quickly affixed his signature to the official document sanctioning his freedom. "There, my good man," said his interlocutor. "Now you are once again a citizen of this Great Republic, as good as any man you see here." "The clever old man replied, 'You mean I'm a Yankee now?'" "Yes, of course!" came the reply. "Jest like you?" "Yes, yes, I have siad it is so." "Wall, in that case I just have one thing left to say." "And that thing is --- ? "They guv us *H--l* at Chickamaugy!" (With a tear for the America that was,) JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "I should marry a millionaire" (1913); Republican/Horse Thief & Will Rogers (1925) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Monday, June 16, 1913 Syracuse/, New York/ ...SHOULD I SHOULD cAre. I SHOULD MARRY A mIllIonAIre. If he SHOULD dIe. 1 SHOULD.....newspAper. nevcr'Slxey. oIl mutlrrA SHOULD bA AddrxMwII to to lu emplojn flf.. Pg. 8, col. 5: I should worry, I should care. I should marry a millionaire. If he should die, I should cry; I should marry another guy. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("I should marry a millionaire") 1. OUT OF THE MOUTHS -- JAMES NEILD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 19, 1926. p. XX12 (1 page) 2. B.A. Botkin, Folklore Expert, Is Dead By MURRAY ILLSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 31, 1975. p. 30 (1 page): Dr. Botkin's investigators found that one of the most popular and widespread children's chants was: I should worry, I should care, I should marry a millionaire. He should die, I should cry. I should marry another guy. Another was: Take a local, Take an express, Don't get off Till you reach success. (...) One of its characteristic anecdotes was the following: "Why," asked the Northerner, "are you a Democrat?" "Well," drawled the Southerner, "my father was a Democrat, my grandfather was a Democrat, and my great-grandfather was a Democrat, so of course I'm a Democrat." "Ah," said the Northerner, "suppose your father had been a horse thief, what would you have been then?" "Oh, I guess I'd a been a Republican." --Buffalo Commercial. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("horse thief") The Worst Story I Have Heard Today By Will Rogers. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1925. p. 6 (1 page): He (Gov. Al Smith--ed.) said one time President Roosevelt was making a political speech in Maine; he asked if there was a Democrat in the audience. An old, long-whiskered man arose in the back of the room and said: "I am a Democrat. My father was a Democrat, and my grandfather was a Democrat." Roosevelt then said: "Then if your father had been a horse theif and your grandfather had been a hose thief, you would be a horse thief?" "No," he said. "I would be a Republican." Now, I claim that a story to be good must be true or based on truth. That story Al told is not true. In the first place, Roosevelt wouldn't be speaking in Maine. No politican ever wasted speeches in a State he already controlled. And in the second place, all Republicans are not horse thieves. At the biggest estimate not over 90 per cent are horse thieves. Every once in a while you meet a pretty nice one. Coming to Terms With Politics; Book World SAFIRE'S POLITICAL DICTIONARY. By William Safire (Random House, 845 pp. $15.95) Reviewed by Norman J. Ornstein. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 20, 1978. p. D13 (1 page) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:09:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:09:37 -0800 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: . . . It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. ******************************************************************************** "There was an old man of Milan Whose verses never would scan. He said, "As a poet, My fault, and I know it, Is that I always try to get as many words into the very last line as I possibly can." --Anon., with the middle lines by JL because I can't remember the originals. JL ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: My mother told me to pick the very best one O-U-T spells out goes YOU! -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Laurence Horn said: >>>> > Curious the way these choosing rituals incorporated ethnic slurs. In > our neighborhood (Washington Heights, NYC, c. 1950) it was always > > Eenie meenie meinie moe > Catch a tiger by the toe > If he hollers let him go > My mother said to pick this very one > Y-O-U spells you > > > <<< > > NYC,fifties: same except that the last line was "out goes Y-O-U". > > > mark by hand > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:15:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:15:58 -0800 Subject: Kissing poem (1969); Peanut Butter poem (1922) Message-ID: NYC, 1961: Ooey Gooey was a worm, A mighty worm was he! He sat upon a railroad track, The train he could not see: [Slowly, with great disgust and force, contorted features, drool, rictus sardonicus, etc.:] OOOOOOOOEEEEE GOOOOOOEEEEEEEY! ! ! ! ! ! ! Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Kissing poem (1969); Peanut Butter poem (1922) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are two I've seen in several books. The kissing poem must be earlier than this. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Coshocton Tribune Tuesday, February 25, 1969 Coshocton, Ohio ...then COMES MARRIAGE: then here she COMES with a BABY CARRIAGE." .Liquor j n.....complex .Childhood Chants remembered: "FIRST COMES love.. Pg. 6, col. 1 (Bert Bacharach column from Los Angeles): FADED PHRASES: "She's a caution," "Little pitchers have big ears" and "He's dead to the world"...Childhood chants remembered: "First comes love, then comes marriage; then here she comes with a baby carriage." Daily Herald Sunday, July 07, 1985 Chicago, Illinois ...favorite anONymous. A PEANUT A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD It's heart was all a.....Choo-choo train comes round THE Toot PEANUT When THE Dark Comes Dancing. a.. Bee Wednesday, June 14, 1922 Danville, Virginia ...powder pufts. Life. Toot Toot A PEANUT SAT ON THE RAILROAD track, Its heart was.....THE came thundering past Toot Toot1. PEANUT Butter. Nowadays. H. E. says an.. Pg. 4, col. 2: _Toot! Toot!_ A peanut sat on the railroad track, Its heart was all a-flutter, The 3:45 came thundering past-- Toot! Toot! Peanut Butter. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 05:21:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:21:28 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 12:23 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The substitution of "tiger" for "nigger" in eeny-meeny came long > after my > childhood. While we were forbidden to use "nigger" in general, that > is, in > expressions such as "nigger toes" for Brazil nuts or "niggerheads" for > coneflowers, or "nigger in the woodpile" for the obscure bad factor, I > don't remember that eeny-meeny was out-of-bounds. I think this was > because > our parents made a distinction between culturally-embedded usage and > voluntary use. They would look askance at bowdlerization, but would > avoid > the incivility of gratuitous insult. Blackface was instrinsically bad, > so_ > Amos & Andy_ was out, nevermind that it was a staple in black > households > with radios. We employed a black daily maid, but, oddly, this was a > mark of > liberal enlightenment in that place & time: all the other households > on the > street had white maids only. > Sorry, I seem to be wandering off the track here. > A. Murie > Oh, what the hey? Why can't we just assume that dialectology is but a form of sociolinguistics and go with that? I was completely unaware of the term "nigger toe" till I was in the Army in 1961. A white, fellow G.I., also from Texas, explained it to me. Of course, once I'd heard the explanation, the relevance of the usage was immediately obvious. I have no idea what a "coneflower" is, so you've lost me on that one. However, I do know "niggerhead," but primarily as a literary term for an underwater obstruction that can rip out the bottom of a commercial fishing boat. -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 05:47:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:47:28 -0500 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" Message-ID: Back in the '30's, '40's, and '50's, GE had practically a lock on light bulb sales and "Mazda" was a trademark that GE used. Back then, even Westinghouse was practically an off-brand by comparison, when it came to light bulbs. In fact, when I worked for the Los Angeles Department of Water & Power, GE turbo-electric generators were considered to be superior to those made by Westinghouse. At the power plant where I worked, there were four Westinghouse generators - the plant was built during the war and GE generators were hard to come by - and one GE generator. The Westinghouse generators were always breaking down. Fortunately, the one GE generator could generate as much electricity by itself, when necessary, as the four Westinghouse generators could together. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 05:50:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:50:54 -0800 Subject: Ho ho ho! Message-ID: OED has "ho ho (ho) ! " as far back as the Middle Ages, but for some reason restricts it to a representation of "derisive laughter." Damn, Santa ! I thought you were laughing *with* us ! Sheesh ! JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 05:52:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:52:18 -0500 Subject: diffuse/ defuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The teacher didn't notice anything wrong with the sentence, "Which is the write word?" -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: diffuse/ defuse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" > threatening to oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? > > I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: > > "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / > defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" > > She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further > inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." > > E pede Herculem, > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 06:18:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:18:29 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: She would have. This is what happens when one quotes from memory. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: diffuse/ defuse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The teacher didn't notice anything wrong with the sentence, "Which is the write word?" -Wilson On Jan 29, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: diffuse/ defuse > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" > threatening to oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? > > I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: > > "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / > defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" > > She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further > inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." > > E pede Herculem, > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 06:19:59 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:19:59 -0500 Subject: Children's Rhymes (1941) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anna! Anna! Get the Ipana! Mother just bit A wax banana! "Ipana" was a brand of toothpaste and, once upon a time, dining-room tables were routinely decorated with a bowl of wax fruit. -Wilson Gray On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------- > CHILDREN'S RHYMES > > I've been looking into more of these. What else could follow "battered > child"? > Here are some from the Christian Science Monitor. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Jump-Rope Rhymes > HORACE REYNOLDS. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). > Boston, Mass.: Jul 11, 1941. p. 12 (1 page): > ... > "One, two, buckle my shoe, > Three, four, shut the door, > Five, six, pick up sticks, > Seven, eight, lay them straight" > ... > "Way down South, where bananas grow, > A fly stepped on an elephant's toe. > The elephant cried with tears in his eyes, > 'You big brute, take someone your size!'" > ... > "Done the Mississippi where the steamboats 'putt,' > An elephant stepped on a cocktoach's foot. > 'Ouch,' cried the cockroach, with tears in his eyes, > 'Why don't you pick on someone your size?'" > ... > "Missus Sippi lived by the shore, > She had children three or more. > The oldest one was twenty-four. > How many children did she have?" > > > Little Girl Jump-Rope Chants: Folk Rhymes in the Making; From > Nantucket To New Mexico Wandering Minstrels Rhythmic Tap Of Jumping > Feat > Special to The Christian Science MonitorMarian Gregg.. Christian > Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 27, 1941. p. 9 > (1 page): > ... > Charlie Chaplin went to France > To teach the ladies how to dance; > First the heel, then the toe, > Round and round and round we go. > Bow to the queen, > Salute to the king, > Turn your back to the submarine.. > ... > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, turn around > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, touch the ground, > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, tie your shoe. > Teddy Bear, Teddy Bear, that will do. > ... > Mabel, Mabel, set the table, > Don't forget the vinegar, salt and red hot pepper. > ... > Amos and Andy, > Sugar and candy, > I spy down; > AMos and Andy, > Sugar and candy, > I spy up. > > > Sidewalk Rhymes > FRANCIS RUSSELL. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). > Boston, Mass.: Jan 4, 1951. p. 8 (1 page): > ... > Eeny, meeny, miney. mo, > Catch a nigger by the toe. > If he hollers, let him go, > Eeny, maany, miney, mo. > ... > Inty, minty, dibbeldy fig, > Deelya, meelya, dominig, > Eitcha, peitcha, dibbeldy eitcha > Uliga, buliga, boo, > Out goes Y-O-U. > ... > No more pencils, no more books, > No more teachers' cross-eyed looks. > ...,,, > One, two, button my shoe, > Three, four, shut the door, > Five, six, pick up sticks, > Seven, eight, lay them straight, > Nine, ten, start all over again. > ... > One, eat a plum, put your right foot over, > Two, button my shoe, etc., > Three, come with me, > Four, shut the door, > Five, I'm alive, > Six, pick up sticks, > Seven, I'm in heaven, > Eight, shut the gate, > Nine, be on time, > Ten, start all over again. > ... > Eeny, meeny, Mussolini, > Hit him on the bumble beany. > ... > Eeny, meeny, miney mo, > Catch a Jap by the toe, > If he hollers, make him say: > "I surrender U.S.A." > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > SUNNY ROLL (WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?) > > I ate at Tiny Thai, 694 Ninth Avenue between West 47th And West 48th > streets. I had a "sunny roll." Sunny, one so true? > > > (GOOGLE) > New York Daily News - City Life - Dishes with a little kick at ... > ... is a wonderful warmup, a bowlful of coconut broth spiked with > spicy Thai herbs and > tender slices of white-meat chicken. Meanwhile, the "Sunny roll" > ($3.50) is ... > www.nydailynews.com/city_life/ story/247147p-211705c.html - 38k - > Cached - Similar pages > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Jan 30 06:57:54 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:57:54 -0500 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:40:54 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Ah, Doug, Doug. So innocent. As recently as the 1950s - make that the >1960s - in fact, up till the late '70s if I recall correctly, the >censorship of certain words was still so strong that no TV show in prime >time or later would or could transmit any colloquialism that had a >well-known sexual or scatological meaning, unless, as in the exx. you >suggest, no simple synopnym ws available. You may recall the more recent >minor uproar in far more permissive times, the early '90s, when the word >"sucks" = "stinks" was broadcast for apparently the first time on network >TV. Nothing came of the protests, but they were widely and seriously >reported. (Nobody had ever objected to "stinks," so far as I know.) >From _The Philadelphia Story_ (1940): Dinah: This stinks. Margaret: Don't say 'stinks,' darling. If absolutely necessary, 'smells' - but only if absolutely necessary. http://www.filmsite.org/phil.html Coincidentally enough, I recently noticed this bit of dialogue from another 1940 classic, _His Girl Friday_: Walter: Handle him with kid gloves. Put him to work writing poetry. No, no, we don't want him. Just stall him along till the Extra's out. Then tell him his poetry smells and kick him down the stairs. http://www.filmsite.org/hisg4.html That struck me as a euphemistic substitution for "his poetry stinks", which seemed odd coming from the hard-boiled newsman Walter Burns (Cary Grant's character). --Ben Zimmer From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 07:19:49 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:19:49 EST Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women Message-ID: In Los Angeles circa 1940/1950, we used several expressions: When asked, "How do you like your coffee?", the response would be: " I like my coffee just like my women, hot, black and only costs a dime." Another expression used when alluding to a sexual liason with a black woman: "Once you go black, you never come back." Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 07:30:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:30:57 EST Subject: "Two Tutors" (1899 limerick) and Puddentame (1940) Message-ID: "A tutor was teaching two tutors to toot" is on page 132 of MISS MARY MAC, ALL DRESSED IN BLACK: TONGUE TWISTERS, JUMP ROPE RHYMES AND OTHER CHILDREN'S LORE FROM NEW ENGLAND (1990). ... ... ... _NOVEL ADVERTISING SCHEMES; Poetry and High Class Literature Sent Out Without Credit--A Striking Example _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=426747561&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11070 68757&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 19, 1899. p. D2 (1 page) ... An example of this style of advertising is the following, which has been issued from the office of the Second Vice President of a prominent insurance company: ... A tutor who tooted the flute Tried to tutor two tutors to toot. Said the two to the tutor, "Is it harder to toot, or To tutor two tutors to toot?" ... ... ... >From MISS MARY MAC (1990), pg. 103: _PUDDENTAME_ ... What's your name? Puddentame. Where are you from? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's your trade? Lemonade. Show us some if you're not afraid. ... ... _HERE'S SQUEEZE PLAY TO DEFEAT HEAT: LEMONADE; Variations on This Cool Drink Are Many. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pq dweb?index=0&did=466662732&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107069760&clientId=658 82) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 26, 1940. p. 12 (1 page) ... "What's your trade?" "Lemonade." It's part of the rigamarole that went with the old game of charades, but many a mother may feel pushed to the point of adopting it as her theme song during a hot spell.2940 From Jerryekane at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 07:45:36 2005 From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:45:36 EST Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties Message-ID: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm Shaving brushes You'll soon see 'em On a shelf In some museum Burma-Shave His cheek Was rough His chick vamoosed And now she won't Come home to roost Burma-Shave On curves ahead Remember, sonny That rabbit's foot Didn't save The bunny Burma-Shave If your peach Keeps out Of reach Better practice What we preach Burma-Shave Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 07:52:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:52:29 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were >> using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed >> telephony" >> and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault >> rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or > simply a > "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a > particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime > around 1980, due > to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system > in which > a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called > "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of > limited range so > that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the > area > simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell > to another, > your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell > you are > entering (hence the need for computer power). > > The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they > expect > to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either > non-existent or > is out of service due to battle damage. > > A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets > had over > the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of > Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German > radiotelephones. > > When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why > don't > you simply call it a "guttural"? > > - James A. Landau Jeez, I understand all of that, Jimbo. Clearly, a military telephonic radio from fifty years ago the size of an overnight bag and weighing fifty pounds or more is not the same as one of today's cellular telephones, any more than a Model-T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. But the development of one did lead to the development of the other. And yes, I know that the argument, post hoc, ergo propter hoc, is logically meaningless, just as is the concept of the "doorway drug." So what if 70% or whatever percentage of heroin addicts started out smoking pot, given that 100% per cent of them started out by being born? Clearly, birth is a better indicator of future narcotic use than grass-use can ever be. As for the Russian [x], I don't simply call it a "guttural" because it's a velar. -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Jan 30 08:10:40 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:10:40 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A couple from the 'Forties: We know How much You love that gal But use both hands When driving, pal Burma-Shave Car in ditch Man in tree Moon was full So was he Burma-Shave -Wilson Gray On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > Shaving brushes > You'll soon see 'em > On a shelf > In some museum > Burma-Shave > > His cheek > Was rough > His chick vamoosed > And now she won't > Come home to roost > Burma-Shave > > On curves ahead > Remember, sonny > That rabbit's foot > Didn't save > The bunny > Burma-Shave > > If your peach > Keeps out > Of reach > Better practice > What we preach > Burma-Shave > > > Jerry E Kane > Los Angeles, CA > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 08:26:01 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:26:01 EST Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't Message-ID: FUZZY WUZZY: ... _Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2oe7tDcJpnAoDSNq4Zbmrbl9tCUTeh+JM0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, July 31, 1942 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fuzzy+wuzzy+and+bear+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fuzzy+wuzzy+ and+bear+AND) ...Wis. FUZZY WUZZY was a BEAR; FUZZY WUZZY had no hair; FUZZY WUZZY wasn't.....very FUZZY was 'e? Anna Carol Kingdon Dear.. {g. 8, col. 1: Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair; Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't very fuzzy, was 'e?--Anna Carol Kingdon. ... ... ... TEN LITTLE INDIANS: ... _RECENT FICTION._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=109775174&SrchMode=1&sid=19&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107070952&clien tId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 17, 1880. p. 4 (1 page) ... Mr. Russell's story is something like the refrain of the "Ten Little Indians," only the savages are of a seafaring character. ... ... ... DON'T SAY AIN'T ... I like this one from MISS MARY MAC, pg. 38, but I couldn't find it on the databases. ... ... Don't say ain't, your mother will faint, And your father will fall in a bucket of paint. Your sister will cry, your brother will die, And you dog will call the FBI. ... (My dog will call the FBI??--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 30 05:57:13 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:57:13 -0500 Subject: The Sanas, Jazz, Jazz and Teas In-Reply-To: <20050130044055.66447.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >.... Had anyone on any aboveboard paper in 1912-13 known of the sexual >senses of "jazz" and knowingly allowed the word to be printed in any sense >at all, he or she would likely have faced a misdemeanor charge or worse. Hmmm. So how did the term "screwball" get accepted? Is it thought that the obscene verb "screw" was unknown to those who first published the word "screwball"? Or is it decontaminated by the combination with "ball"? Surely the referent does not demand this word (in its baseball sense or its other one); was there any attempt to avoid the word, to introduce a sanitized equivalent? What about "snafu", which has been in the papers since WW II? Was it really arguably innocent at first? Or did everybody already know what the "F" stood for? [I'm not sure we really know the answer to this one.] When it became clear, did the word suddenly disappear from the papers, from fear of the censor? [Maybe it did transiently, I don't know.] Why has "pussy" been used in the papers with impunity all along, with reference to cats and otherwise? "Pussy[cat]" is never necessary; "cat" will do, or "kittycat". Is it suggested that the newspaper editors would have claimed ignorance of the existence of the sexual senses of "pussy"? Of course I am still young and naive, but it is my impression that (except for a few globally unacceptable words, e.g., "f*ck", "c*nt") an 'innocent' neologism might appear freely in the newspapers in spite of the existence of a known obscene homonym, provided that the obscene sense was not too dominant and that there was no indication of deliberate double-entendre. -- Doug Wilson From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Sun Jan 30 11:01:59 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:01:59 +0000 Subject: diffuse/ defuse In-Reply-To: <200501292258.j0TMwVj1018714@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 29/1/05 10:58 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: diffuse/ defuse > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to > oust the other. > > Anyone else notice this? > > I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: > > "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / > defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" > > She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she > confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." > > E pede Herculem, > > JL > Was that the rong write? Neil Crawford From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:04:17 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:17 -0500 Subject: "Complicit" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050130000643.02e7fca0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: complicit (not in OED) 1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein Online) Consumers, as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be almost solely the cause for any misperceptions that occur. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:11:20 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:11:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Eminent Domain" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: eminent domain (OED 1850) 1805 Emer de Vattel _The Law of Nations_ 173 (Making of Modern Law) The right which belonged to the society or to the sovereign, of disposing, in case of necessity and for the public safety, of all the wealth contained in the state is called the _eminent domain_. ... If the nation disposes of the _public property_, in virtue of his eminent domain, the alienation is valid, as having been made with a sufficient power. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From orinkh at CARR.ORG Sun Jan 30 14:03:46 2005 From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:03:46 -0500 Subject: "Complicit" Message-ID: >Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: > > >complicit (not in OED) > >1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein Online) Consumers, >as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are >complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be almost solely >the cause for any misperceptions that occur. It's also curiously missing from RHUD, WNW-4, and Collins. ODE's got it, however, and says "1940s: back-formation from complicity." (but with no citational evidence). MW-11 says 1973. AH-4 doesn't date it. Orin Hargraves From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:30:39 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:30:39 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Executive Privilege" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: executive privilege (OED 1940) 1912 Francis Wharton _A Treatise on the Law of Evidence in Criminal Issues_ (ed. 10) 2323 (Making of Modern Law) EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, against testimony of public matters. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 14:38:39 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:38:39 -0500 Subject: Earlier Citation for "Complicit" In-Reply-To: <200501301429.j0UEThN4014691@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: complicit (not in OED) 1928 _Federal Reporter, 2nd Series_ 28: 423 (Lexis) The plaintiff was complicit in the matters which caused the revocation of the Waterloo Company's permits. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 30 14:39:46 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:39:46 -0500 Subject: Earlier Citation for "Complicit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 09:38:39AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > complicit (not in OED) > > 1928 _Federal Reporter, 2nd Series_ 28: 423 (Lexis) The plaintiff was > complicit in the matters which caused the revocation of the Waterloo > Company's permits. Thanks for this. As Orin suggested, we have a 1949 example in our draft entry. Jesse Sheidlower OED From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Jan 30 14:42:35 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:42:35 -0500 Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- >From: > ... > I like this one from MISS MARY MAC, pg. 38, but I couldn't find it on the > databases. > ... > Don't say ain't, your mother will faint, > And your father will fall in a bucket of paint. > Your sister will cry, your brother will die, > And you dog will call the FBI. > ... > (My dog will call the FBI??--ed.) > So, what SHOULD he have done--call the CIA? {rimshot} SC From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Sun Jan 30 15:39:36 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:39:36 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties Message-ID: My favorite Burma Shave doggerel: They took the curve, the car was whizzin'. The fault was hers, the funeral his'n. Burma Shave. Alan Baragona ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:10 AM Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > A couple from the 'Forties: > > We know > How much > You love that gal > But use both hands > When driving, pal > Burma-Shave > > Car in ditch > Man in tree > Moon was full > So was he > Burma-Shave > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerry E Kane > > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > > > Shaving brushes > > You'll soon see 'em > > On a shelf > > In some museum > > Burma-Shave > > > > His cheek > > Was rough > > His chick vamoosed > > And now she won't > > Come home to roost > > Burma-Shave > > > > On curves ahead > > Remember, sonny > > That rabbit's foot > > Didn't save > > The bunny > > Burma-Shave > > > > If your peach > > Keeps out > > Of reach > > Better practice > > What we preach > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > Jerry E Kane > > Los Angeles, CA > > > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jan 30 15:57:54 2005 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:57:54 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Mazda=20bulbs"?= Message-ID: What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered if it's related to the name of the Japanese car. Steve Boatti sjb72 at columbia.edu From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Sun Jan 30 16:08:38 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:08:38 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] Message-ID: As a lexicographer, I'd say "ho ho ho" should be a dictionary entry/definition because of its distinctive meaning. If it's relevant, here is something that I wrote some time back in a trademark affidavit: ". . . iteratives like "Bang-Bang" and "Hear, Hear" may be repeated indefinitely, but the lexeme, or meaningful linguistic unit that qualifies as a dictionary entry, is composed of the same word repeated once. . . . The odd triple formation, as in "Oyez, oyez, oyez!" is usually a rhetorical, poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, bells" (Edith Sitwell?), "the hoop-hoop-hoop of the large-bodied, grey-bearded monkey" (R. H. Elliot), or Santa Claus's trademark greeting "Ho-ho-ho!" Thomas Paikeday www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:50 AM Subject: Ho ho ho! > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Ho ho ho! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED has "ho ho (ho) ! " as far back as the Middle Ages, but for some > reason restricts it to a representation of "derisive laughter." > > Damn, Santa ! I thought you were laughing *with* us ! Sheesh ! > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! > From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Sun Jan 30 16:13:48 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:13:48 -0500 Subject: Fw: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] Message-ID: SORRY, PLEASE DELETE LAST FIVE WORDS! CORRECTED VERSION BELOW. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Paikeday" To: "American Dialect Society" Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] > As a lexicographer, I'd say "ho ho ho" should be a dictionary > entry/definition because of its distinctive meaning. If it's relevant, > here is something that I wrote some time back in a trademark affidavit: > > ". . . iteratives like "Bang-Bang" and "Hear, Hear" may be repeated > indefinitely, but the lexeme, or meaningful linguistic unit that qualifies > as a dictionary entry, is composed of the same word repeated once. . . . > The odd triple formation, as in "Oyez, oyez, oyez!" is usually a > rhetorical, poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the > bells, bells, bells" (Edith Sitwell?), "the hoop-hoop-hoop of the > large-bodied, grey-bearded monkey" (R. H. Elliot)." > > Thomas Paikeday > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonathan Lighter" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:50 AM > Subject: Ho ho ho! > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Ho ho ho! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OED has "ho ho (ho) ! " as far back as the Middle Ages, but for some >> reason restricts it to a representation of "derisive laughter." >> >> Damn, Santa ! I thought you were laughing *with* us ! Sheesh ! >> >> JL >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! >> > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:33:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:33:15 -0500 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" In-Reply-To: <13e.bc4c951.2f2e5e02@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:57 AM -0500 1/30/05, Steve Boatti wrote: >What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered if >it's related to the name of the Japanese car. > Isn't it directly from Ahura-Mazda, Zoroastrian god of light? (Sorry for inaccuracies in the spelling or mythology, but I think that's the basic idea.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:36:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:36:23 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: <027401c506e5$f6234070$97406395@paikeday> Message-ID: At 11:08 AM -0500 1/30/05, Thomas Paikeday wrote: >As a lexicographer, I'd say "ho ho ho" should be a dictionary >entry/definition because of its distinctive meaning. If it's relevant, here >is something that I wrote some time back in a trademark affidavit: > >". . . iteratives like "Bang-Bang" and "Hear, Hear" may be repeated >indefinitely, but the lexeme, or meaningful linguistic unit that qualifies >as a dictionary entry, is composed of the same word repeated once. . . . The >odd triple formation, as in "Oyez, oyez, oyez!" is usually a rhetorical, >poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, >bells" (Edith Sitwell?), I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". LH From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:44:07 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:44:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Authoritarianism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: authoritarianism (OED 1909) 1902 _Amer. Jrnl. Theology_ VI. 451 (JSOTR) The historic Protestant theory of the sources of religious knowledge has been an unstable compromise between rationalism and authoritarianism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:49:14 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:49:14 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <20050130050011.8E487B28C5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jim Landau suggests: >>> When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why don't you simply call it a "guttural"? <<< "Guttural" means 'of/in the throat', and is widely (mis)used by nonlinguists to describe any vocal sound considered rough or savage, including some that are not "in the throat" at all. Why not accurately call it a voiceless velar fricative? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:50:46 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:50:46 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, > >bells" (Edith Sitwell?), > > I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". You are clearly both wrong. All quotations are derived from Irish sources, as I demonstrate in my forthcoming quotation dictionary. Neither Sitwell nor Poe was Irish. Q.E.D. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 30 16:52:46 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:52:46 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050130050011.8E487B28C5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray-vo': >>> I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: My mother told me to pick the very best one O-U-T spells out goes YOU! It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. <<< If the rhythm were maintained it would be easier to predict in real time (or, as we used to say, on the fly) where the count would end up. ISTM that it's less predictable this way, and so a desirable characteristic (a "survival trait") in a counting-out verse. mark by hand From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 17:01:48 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:01:48 -0800 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>> poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, >>> bells, >>> bells" (Edith Sitwell?), >> >> I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". > > You are clearly both wrong. All quotations are derived from Irish > sources, as I demonstrate in my forthcoming quotation dictionary. > Neither > Sitwell nor Poe was Irish. What makes you so sure? I haven't thought through Sitwell yet -- I suggest a long hard look at the Sit- element -- but Poe is obviously Pogue, from an Irish word meaning 'kiss'. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells" is pretty much the only occasion for most people to utter, or hear, the wonderful word "tintinnabulation" From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 17:05:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:05:08 -0800 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:01 AM, I wrote: > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells"... oops: *Pogue's* "The Bells". From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 17:07:13 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:07:13 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > What makes you so sure? I haven't thought through Sitwell yet -- I > suggest a long hard look at the Sit- element -- but Poe is obviously > Pogue, from an Irish word meaning 'kiss'. Of course... I forgot that not only are all words are Irish in origin and all quotations Irish in origin, but all names are Irish in origin as well. Fred O'Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred O'Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jan 30 17:12:22 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:12:22 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: <186201EA-72E1-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 09:05:08AM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:01 AM, I wrote: > > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells"... > > oops: *Pogue's* "The Bells". Pogue Mahone is, I believe, his full name. Jesse Sheidlower OED From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Sun Jan 30 17:30:23 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:30:23 -0500 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" In-Reply-To: <20050130163309.08FC07AE68@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: From what I see on the Internet, it is something of a marketo-mytho-etymology from the get-go. So 'Ahura Mazda' does not mean god of light until General Electric gets involved? I can't vouch for it. I only know what I read in the funny papers. see: Selection below from http://www3.sympatico.ca/zoroastrian/topic.htm: Zarathushtra was the first to introduce a novel way of thinking and a completely new philosophy of life. He taught that there is only ONE God whom he called Ahura Mazda. This term consists of two Avestan (a language used during the time of Zarathushtra) words, Ahura and Mazda. The first word Ahura was already used by the pre-Zoroastrians for their God and Zarathushtra introduced the concept of God as the creator who infused life into the physical world. This is probably why many scholars have derived the word Ahura from the root Ahu meaning life giving force and translate it to mean Lord. The new word, Mazda, that Zarathutra introduced means super-intellect or supreme wisdom. Hence the term Ahura Mazda means Lord of Wisdom. (GE had named their light bulb Mazda to honor the God of Light, probably in the misconception that Mazda means light. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 30 17:57:56 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:56 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: <7e65f0abb27ad5d2e1fb4acbaf3ff072@rcn.com> Message-ID: >-Wilson Gray writes: >I was completely unaware of the term "nigger toe" till I was in the >Army in 1961. A white, fellow G.I., also from Texas, explained it to >me. Of course, once I'd heard the explanation, the relevance of the >usage was immediately obvious. I have no idea what a "coneflower" is, >so you've lost me on that one. However, I do know "niggerhead," but >primarily as a literary term for an underwater obstruction that can rip >out the bottom of a commercial fishing boat. > ~~~~~~~~~ Coneflowers are composites. The one in question, /Rudbeckia occidentalis/, has a dome-shaped disc and is missing ray flowers altogether. Sort of like Echinacea or Black-eyed susan without the outer ring of petals. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 18:09:00 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:09:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Liberalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: liberalism (OED 1819) 1817 _Times_ 29 Dec. 2 Liberalism, the love of country, the feeling of duty, have little to do with this extraordinary division. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 18:30:32 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:30:32 -0800 Subject: "bait and switch" on Language Log Message-ID: a version of my posting here on 1/23/05 (and larry horn's response to it): http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001858.html arnold From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jan 30 18:47:37 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:47:37 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >poetical, or similar use, as in "the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells, >> >bells" (Edith Sitwell?), >> >> I thought it was Poe, "The Bells". > >You are clearly both wrong. All quotations are derived from Irish >sources, as I demonstrate in my forthcoming quotation dictionary. Neither >Sitwell nor Poe was Irish. Q.E.D. > >Fred Shapiro > ~~~~~~~~ IF IRISH, I don't suppose it was: The bells of Shandon That sound so grand on The pleasant waters Of the River Lea by slips-my-mind? This was the first thing that occurred to me! A. Murie From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Jan 30 18:59:52 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:59:52 -0600 Subject: Antedating of "Executive Privilege", complicit Message-ID: >From the Hein Online legal journal database: 22 Harv. L. Rev. 377 (1908-1909) p. 377 "When only attendance ad testificandum is required, executive privilege is not as well established either in reason or in practice, but as a general rule the court should assume that the executive is acting properly and that his absence is due to his official duties or engagements rather than to contempt of court." Note that this database also has some antedatings of "complicit" beyond what Fred has already posted, but they are all of the French word. The first English usage is 1935. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Fred Shapiro Sent: Sun 1/30/2005 8:30 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Executive Privilege" executive privilege (OED 1940) 1912 Francis Wharton _A Treatise on the Law of Evidence in Criminal Issues_ (ed. 10) 2323 (Making of Modern Law) EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, against testimony of public matters. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:38:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:38:09 -0800 Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women Message-ID: What I heard in the '70s (as a brag) was "Once black, never back." An old movie provided "I like my coffee like I like my women: hot, blonde, and sweet." And who could forget Goddess Judy Tenuta (she of the eternal accordion) saying (mid '90s) "I like my men the way I like my subways! Hot [accordion discord here] ! Packed [accordion discord] ! And coming every five minutes !" JL Jerry E Kane wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jerry E Kane Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Los Angeles circa 1940/1950, we used several expressions: When asked, "How do you like your coffee?", the response would be: " I like my coffee just like my women, hot, black and only costs a dime." Another expression used when alluding to a sexual liason with a black woman: "Once you go black, you never come back." Jerry E Kane Los Angeles, CA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:40:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:40:09 -0800 Subject: hooey Message-ID: I couldn't remember whether "velar" was correct, so I just didn't say nuthin'. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: hooey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were >> using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed >> telephony" >> and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault >> rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. > > No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or > simply a > "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a > particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime > around 1980, due > to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system > in which > a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called > "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of > limited range so > that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the > area > simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell > to another, > your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell > you are > entering (hence the need for computer power). > > The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they > expect > to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either > non-existent or > is out of service due to battle damage. > > A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets > had over > the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of > Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German > radiotelephones. > > When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why > don't > you simply call it a "guttural"? > > - James A. Landau Jeez, I understand all of that, Jimbo. Clearly, a military telephonic radio from fifty years ago the size of an overnight bag and weighing fifty pounds or more is not the same as one of today's cellular telephones, any more than a Model-T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. But the development of one did lead to the development of the other. And yes, I know that the argument, post hoc, ergo propter hoc, is logically meaningless, just as is the concept of the "doorway drug." So what if 70% or whatever percentage of heroin addicts started out smoking pot, given that 100% per cent of them started out by being born? Clearly, birth is a better indicator of future narcotic use than grass-use can ever be. As for the Russian [x], I don't simply call it a "guttural" because it's a velar. -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:41:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:41:19 -0800 Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't Message-ID: Yes, so reviled is "ain't." JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Fuzzy Wuzzy (1942); Ten Little Indians (1880); Don't Say Ain't ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FUZZY WUZZY: ... _Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2oe7tDcJpnAoDSNq4Zbmrbl9tCUTeh+JM0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, July 31, 1942 _Wisconsin Rapids,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wisconsin_rapids+fuzzy+wuzzy+and+bear+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+fuzzy+wuzzy+ and+bear+AND) ...Wis. FUZZY WUZZY was a BEAR; FUZZY WUZZY had no hair; FUZZY WUZZY wasn't.....very FUZZY was 'e? Anna Carol Kingdon Dear.. {g. 8, col. 1: Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair; Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't very fuzzy, was 'e?--Anna Carol Kingdon. ... ... ... TEN LITTLE INDIANS: ... _RECENT FICTION._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=109775174&SrchMode=1&sid=19&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107070952&clien tId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 17, 1880. p. 4 (1 page) ... Mr. Russell's story is something like the refrain of the "Ten Little Indians," only the savages are of a seafaring character. ... ... ... DON'T SAY AIN'T ... I like this one from MISS MARY MAC, pg. 38, but I couldn't find it on the databases. ... ... Don't say ain't, your mother will faint, And your father will fall in a bucket of paint. Your sister will cry, your brother will die, And you dog will call the FBI. ... (My dog will call the FBI??--ed.) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:51:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:51:45 -0800 Subject: "Complicit" Message-ID: As many will recognize, this word has become something os a buzz word in the area of sociocultural literary theory and kindred realms. For example, if you read and enjoy a murder mystery, you are "complicit" in societal violence. If you don't enjoy it, you're still highly complicit if you bought the book, because the profit reaped from your payment encourages the production of still more violent tales and images in society, which are complicit in the accomplishment of real violence. If you borrowed the book from the library, you are most deeply complicit because you are contributing to the perceived popularity of such books, leading to the library's purchase of further violence-encouraging publications, and the pattern contuinues. Another example: suppose you like NFL football. That makes you complicit in societal violence because...Aw, the hell with it. JL Fred Shapiro wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Fred Shapiro Subject: "Complicit" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: complicit (not in OED) 1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein Online) Consumers, as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be almost solely the cause for any misperceptions that occur. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 30 19:55:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:55:16 -0800 Subject: "Mazda bulbs" Message-ID: Yes. That's what the antique bulb collectors' websites say. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Mazda bulbs" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 10:57 AM -0500 1/30/05, Steve Boatti wrote: >What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered if >it's related to the name of the Japanese car. > Isn't it directly from Ahura-Mazda, Zoroastrian god of light? (Sorry for inaccuracies in the spelling or mythology, but I think that's the basic idea.) Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:14:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:14:02 -0500 Subject: "bait and switch" on Language Log In-Reply-To: <0663E3EC-72ED-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:30 AM -0800 1/30/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >a version of my posting here on 1/23/05 (and larry horn's response to >it): > >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001858.html > >arnold Thanks for the pub. Did I really say that Paul Krugman and other administration critics were "font of" the _bait and switch_ construction? Yes, as the archives reveal, I surely did. Argle bargle. Larry, who's font of Times New Roman but has a crush on Comic Sans MS From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:16:00 2005 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:16:00 -0800 Subject: antedate for "cover girl" (1899) Message-ID: Poem in the NYT Jul. 30, 1899 entitled "To A Magazine Cover Girl," which begins: I'll not gainsay you your beauty, for indeed you're wondrous fair, But tell me, oh, I pray you, how you ever fix your hair? The OED has 1915. Geoff Nunberg From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 30 20:18:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:18:17 -0500 Subject: give...five Message-ID: OED deosn't seem to have an entry for _give (me) five_. It's earliest date for _high five_ is 1980. The following two entries offer an interesting possible foundation for _high five_. >From _Current Slang_ (U. of South Dakota, 1970, Vol. V, no. 3, p 7): "give ... five, v. To off an open-handed slap as a handshake. --High school males, Chicano, New Mexico" >From _Current Slang_ (U. of South Dakota, 1970, Vol. V, no. 2, p 7): "give five, v. To express agreement and comraderie by an open-palmed slap." Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:20:28 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:20:28 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Authoritarianism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: authoritarianism (OED 1909) 1886 _Liberty (Not the Daughter But the Mother of Order_ 17 July 4 (American Periodical Series) In thus "assuming to plumb" Powderly, was he "in the direct line of authoritarianism"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:27:16 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:27:16 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Battered Child" In-Reply-To: <0D134172.7CDEB374.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > [1962 C. H. KEMPE et al. in Jrnl. Amer. Med. Assoc. 7 July 17/1 The > battered-child syndrome is a term used by us to characterize a clinical > condition in young children who have received serious physical abuse, > generally from a parent or foster parent.] 1963 Brit. Med. Jrnl. 21 Dec. > 1558 (heading) Multiple epiphysial injuries in babies (???*battered > baby??? syndrome). Ibid. 1560/1 The x-ray changes in the ???battered > baby??? are..like those often described in infantile scurvy. 1854 _Graham's American Monthly Magazine_ Jan. (American Periodical Series) I wish ... that one might read those horrible police reports every morning, with some sort of composure, feeling that the mangled wives and battered children ... were really not of the same flesh and blood as your own smiling Mrs. Jones. Fred Shapiro From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jan 30 20:37:03 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:37:03 -0800 Subject: Nouse (2003) In-Reply-To: <0663E3EC-72ED-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: "This application--called Nouse, for nose as a mouse--tracks the movements of your nose, and was developed by Dmitry Gorodnichy. You can play NosePong, a nose-driven version of the Pong video game, or test your ability to paint with your nose or to write with your nose." "Recent Advances in Computer Vision," Massimo Picardi and Tony Jan, The Industrial Physicist, Vol. 9, No. 1, Feb-Mar 2003, http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-1/p18.html "A computer vision scientist at the National Research Council of Canada made headlines a couple of months ago with the introduction of the nouse--a system that allows for cursor control by tracking the tip of the user's nose." "Communications of the ACM" (Association for Computing Machinery), Vol. 48, No. 1, Jan 2005, p. 9. There are about 16 Usenet hits for the word on Google Groups. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:42:24 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:42:24 -0800 Subject: "bait and switch" on Language Log In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Larry Horn addressed me: > Thanks for the pub. Did I really say that Paul Krugman and other > administration critics were "font of" the _bait and switch_ > construction? Yes, as the archives reveal, I surely did. Argle > bargle. > > Larry, who's font of Times New Roman but has a crush on Comic Sans MS oh crap. i should have silently corrected that, but i didn't catch it. i'll fix it now. for about a minute, my previous LL posting was out there on the web under the title "Contaminating identies". arnold, erroneous From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 20:49:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Nouse (2003) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0800 1/30/05, Dave Wilton wrote: >"This application--called Nouse, for nose as a mouse--tracks the movements >of your nose, and was developed by Dmitry Gorodnichy. You can play NosePong, >a nose-driven version of the Pong video game, or test your ability to paint >with your nose or to write with your nose." "Recent Advances in Computer >Vision," Massimo Picardi and Tony Jan, The Industrial Physicist, Vol. 9, No. >1, Feb-Mar 2003, http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-1/p18.html > >"A computer vision scientist at the National Research Council of Canada made >headlines a couple of months ago with the introduction of the nouse--a >system that allows for cursor control by tracking the tip of the user's >nose." "Communications of the ACM" (Association for Computing Machinery), >Vol. 48, No. 1, Jan 2005, p. 9. > >There are about 16 Usenet hits for the word on Google Groups. Sounds intriguing. Does one's nose need to be hooked up to a USB port, though? Sounds uncomfortable. L From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Sun Jan 30 21:12:10 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: Children's Chants Songs Games live sound field recording Message-ID: hi, i'm really into this topic - its something i've been thinking about for 30 years. hope this might be of interest to some folks re: Children's Chants, Songs ,Games, "Domino" ?1990 by me http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/_DOMINO_.html Traditional Children's Songs,Proverbs, and Culture From the United States Virgin Islands collected by me 1977 - 79 60 Traditional Children's Songs, Games, Proverbs 45 minute Live Sound Field Recording ?1979 Description - all the stuff in there http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/descript.html can see and hear both Ding Dong and Down In The River then check out the National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html from the playground to the cyberplayground best, karen <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:30:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bureaucracy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: bureaucracy (OED 1837) 1826 _Times_ 22 Dec. 2 We have then to defend the monastic Government ... against the administrative maxims of Ministerial bureaucracy. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:33:10 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:33:10 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Industrial Revolution" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: industrial revolution (OED 1848) 1847 _Times_ 29 Nov. 5 An industrial revolution has taken place throughout Europe, and Flanders has not kept pace with its progress either in agricultural or manufacturing improvement. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:35:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:35:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: conservatism (OED 1835) 1832 _Times_ 17 Oct. 3 The reformers, disgusted by Cobbett's coarseness and want of principle on the one hand, and Loyd's modified conservatism on the other, saw in Thomson just the sort of man they desired to have. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:38:28 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:38:28 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Radicalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: radicalism (OED 1820) 1819 _Times_ 11 Nov. 3 If Ministers and Magistrates will take the hint, this meeting furnishes a lesson to prevent them from rousing the slumbering fire of radicalism to fresh fury, by gagging bills, suspension acts, and the sword. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:42:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:42:34 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cosmopolitan" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cosmopolitan, adj. (OED 1844) 1833 _Times_ 5 Feb. 3 The institutions of his own country are, of course, not excluded from the benefit of his cosmopolitan sympathy. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:48:01 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:48:01 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Plutocrat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: plutocrat (OED 1850) 1841 _Times_ 23 Apr. 5 Conservatism ... is not the creed of the aristocrat or the plutocrat, who regard the distinctions of rank, the privileges of place, or the rights of property, as the things best worth preserving. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:52:38 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:52:38 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Reactionary" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: reactionary (OED 1840) 1815 _Times_ 30 Oct. 2 Many _employees_ have reported, that the elections of the department have been conducted in a completely re-actionary spirit. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 21:54:49 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:54:49 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Protectionism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: protectionism (OED 1852) 1846 _Times_ 12 Jan. 4 We must pronounce it mere obstinacy or mere fatuity to charge Sir ROBERT PEEL with the sin of inveterate protectionism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 30 23:01:14 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0500 Subject: give...five Message-ID: Dear All, Now that I'm home and looked in HDAS, I find it's even older. That's what happens when one doesn't check all the sources. Sorry to all whose time I wasted. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 30 23:59:49 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:59:49 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Journalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: journalism (OED 1833) 1827 _Times_ 22 Dec. 2 The "journalism" of the _Moniteur_ and _Gazette de France_ is resorted to by the same ingenious Minister, as the organ through which their own profession and privileges are held up to alternate fear and scorn. Journalism, it appears, in the eyes of M. de VILLELE, ought to resemble Irish reciprocity. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 01:13:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:13:23 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_"Mazda_bulbs"?= In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6o5e9a@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Steve Boatti wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Steve Boatti > Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Mazda=20bulbs"?= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb trademark? I've wondered > if > it's related to the name of the Japanese car. > > Steve Boatti > sjb72 at columbia.edu > Isn't Ahura-Mazda the name of the god of goodness and light in the pre-Islamic religion of Persia/Iran, whose name escapes me? Its modern form is the religion of the Parsees/Farsees of India. -Wilson Gray From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 01:28:15 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:28:15 -0500 Subject: "Ching-Ching Chinaman" (1897) and American Folklore Society Message-ID: AMERICAN FOLKLORE SOCIETY Roger D. Abrahams edited two books for the American Folklore Society. One was JUMP-ROPE RHYMES: A DICTONARY (1969) and another is COUNTING-OUT RHYMES: A DICTIONARY (1980). NYU has the former at the New School only, but I've read portions at the NYPL. Abrahams cites collections of books, but many of these rhymes and sayings first appeared in regional NEWSPAPERS. We now have digitized newspapers, so we should be improving on every entry. I don't know what Fred Shapiro plans to include from all this, but certain rhymes are famous. "I scream" was first cited here from 1947. "I should marry a millionaire" has a 1940 date. "Acca, bacca" is from North Carolina in 1948. "Charlie Chaplin sat on a pin" and "Charlie Chaplin went (came) to France" are both cited from 1926. "Spell Chicago" and "Spell New York" are both cited from 1947. "Cinderella, dressed in yellow" is from 1926. "I see London, I see stars, I see someone's underdrawers" is from 1963. --------------------------------------------------------------- CHING CHING CHINAMAN "Ching Ching Chinaman" is probably one of the most important of children's rhymes, just after they were taught "Ten Little Niggers." Oh, that innocent age. It's clearly from the 1800s, but JUMP-ROPE RHYMES doesn't help much here...The Library of Congress's American Memory seems to be down at the moment. JUMP-ROPE RHYMES: A DICTIONARY edited by Roger D. Abrahams Published for the American Folklore SOciety by the University of Texas Press, Austin & London 1969 Pg. 29: Ching, chang, Chinaman, Chop, chop, chop, Eating Candy at the candy shop. ...Abrahams, _SFQ_, 27 (1963), 202 [Texas]. Ching, chang, Chinaman bought a toy doll, Washed it, dyed it, then caught a cold. Send for the doctor; Doctor wouldn't come Because he had a pimple on his tum-tum-tum. ...Douglas (1916), 95 [London]. "...penny doll....and called it penny poll." ...Sutton-Smith, _WF_, 12 (1953), 21 [New Zealand]. Pg. 30: Ching, Ching, Chinaman Eats dead rats, Swallows them down Like ginger-snaps! ...Yoffie, _JAF_, 60 (1947), 49 [Missouri]. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A MONOLOGUE UPON CATS.; With Several Incidental Digresions to Other Subjects. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 12, 1897. p. 14 (1 page): [Illegible--ed.] she was a little girl, that was at the time when the children wore their hair braided down their backs and my little niece called after a little girl on the street, "Ching, Ching, Chinaman!" and all about a pigtail, and the little girl hit her, and she fell down and hurt her hip. (GOOGLE) http://www.smartfellowspress.com/Invisible/Chapter2.htm "Ching Ching Chinaman sitting on a fence Trying to make a dollar out of fifteen cents. Along came a Chinaman and hit him on the head. Ching Ching Chinaman fell down dead." (GOOGLE) http://faculty.virginia.edu/vafolk/ffv1a.htm Rhyming Verses: Tippy recited verses to accompany his dancing.The purpose seemed to be two-fold: while maintaining the rhythm of his dance with these stanzas, Tippy added to the overall comic nature of his performances. Some of his rhyming verses were comic variations of standard folk rhymes like: [End page 37] Ching, Ching, Chinaman, sittin' on the fence, Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents. Which became: Ching, Ching, Chinaman, sittin' on the fence, If you ain't got a dollar give me fifteen cents. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: The Best short stories of 1917 Author(s): O'Brien, Edward Joseph Harrington,; 1890-1941. Publication: [S.l.] : Houghton, Year: 1918 Description: xxvi, 482 p. Language: English Series: Variation: Corefiche.; Short stories.; Phase 8 ;; 2127. Contents: Excursion / Edwina Stanton Babcock -- Onnie / Thomas Beer -- Cup of tea / Maxwell Struthers Burt -- Lonely places / Francis Buzzell -- Boys will be boys / Irvin S. Cobb -- Laughter / Charles Caldwell Dobie -- Emperor of Elam / H.G. Dwight -- Gay old dog / Edna Ferber -- Knight's move / Katharine Fullerton Gerould -- Jury of her peers / Susan Glaspell -- Bunker mouse / Frederick Stuart Greene -- Rainbow Pete / Richard Matthews Hallet -- Get ready the wreaths / Fannie Hurst -- Strange looking man / Fanny Kemble Johnson --Caller in the night / Burton Kline -- Interval / Vincent O'Sullivan -- Certain rich man- / Lawrence Perry -- Path of glory / Mary Brecht Pulver -- Ching, ching, chinaman / Wilbur Daniel Steele -- None so blind / Mary Synon. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Ching ching Chinaman / Author: Gottschalk, Louis F.; Unsell, Eve. Publication: New York : Jerome H. Remick & Co., 1923 Document: English : Musical Score : Printed music : Songs (LITERATURE ONLINE) Foster, Stephen Collins, 1826-1864: DON'T BET YOUR MONEY ON DE SHANGHAI. [from The Music of Stephen C. Foster [1990]] [Editorial note: 1Kb] 1 De Shanghai chicken when you put him in de pit 2 He'll eat a loaf of bread up but he can't fight a bit 3 De Shanghai fiddle is a funny little thing 4 And ebry time you tune him up he goes ching! ching! Chorus--- 5 Oh! de Shanghai! 6 Don't bet your money on de Shanghai! 7 Take de little chicken in de middle of de ring 8 But don't bet your money on de Shanghai. (LITERAURE ONLINE) 1. Brough, Robert B. (Robert Barnabas), 1828-1860 [Author Page] / Brough, William, 1826-1870 [Author Page] The second calender [1853] 167Kb THE SECOND CALENDER; And the Queen of Beauty, WHO HAD THE FIGHT WITH THE GENIE. AN EXTRAVAGANZA, In Two Acts, [Durable URL for this text] Found 2 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] ACT II. [Durable URL for this text] SCENE. I. [Durable URL for this text] ...friends to see; [Stage direction] Ching-a-ring-a-ring- ching-ching-ching-cha, Chinamen arrive from Pekin far;... ...friends to see; [Stage direction] Ching-a-ring-a-ring-ching- ching-ching-cha, Chinamen arrive from Pekin far;... From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 01:28:53 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:28:53 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:05 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho > ho ho!] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:01 AM, I wrote: > >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells"... > > oops: *Pogue's* "The Bells". > The Pogues made a recording of this? I did not know this. [Historical note: The Pogues originally styled themselves as the "Pogue Mahone," until some Irish-speaking person pointed out to the English censors that the sound - though not the spelling, of course - "Pogue Mahone" is a very close approximation of the Irish translation of "Kiss my ass!"] -Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 31 01:34:15 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:34:15 -0500 Subject: Slang of 1912 (including "pizzazz") Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Mansfield News_ (Mansfield OH), 7 Dec. 1912: p. 10(?), col. 3: << The Clean Language League of America, which is plum nuts about being dead set against slang, cuss words, risque stories, purple ragtime and wriggly cabaret shindigs -- not because it cares a whoop, but because such things always sound like heck to strangers -- held a wild-eyed jamboree here tonight and cooked up plans for a grand hallelujah campaign to induce everybody to climb into the pure-words wagon and swear off on throwing the lowbrow lingo. Quite a considerable bunch of language bugs took the splurge and the enthusiasm was all to the velvet. According to the dope that was passed out today by one of the high moguls, Tommy Russell, the main doing tonight was to pick out a publicity gang which will have the job of throwing this line of bull into every state in the union, being particularly strong on the schools and colleges, and not passing up the educational hangouts for skirts. The side show of the movement will be to go after the kind of music that you hear in the all-night dumps and the public hog-rassles. Brother Russell declared, bo, that his crowd had already framed it up with some of the big guys in the music world to put the kibosh on this line of junk, and that it was only a question of time before they would have such pieces as "When I Get You Alone Tonight" completely on the pizzazz. Another idea of the league is to put a straw boss in every other state for the purpose of hitching up with mutts as dippy as himself in order to help the good word along. This state gink is to be a sort of an Old-Miss-Over-All and the purity expert in his particular neck of the woods. The crowd passed a whole lot of hifalutin resolutions. They said that it made them as sore as a goat to have to hear mothers using slang in the presence of the kids, because it was a 10 to 1 shot that it would put the little duffers' morals on the blink. They said that sister must not say "fudge" -- not even when there was nobody but guineas around -- because "fudge" wasn't a proper dido to find in the flossie's vocabulary. They pulled quite a bunch of stuff about what was O.K. for little brother to let himself loose on, but they swore to goodness that "doggone" was a doggone bad thing to say, and that "gosh darn" was putrid, and that "hully gee" and "I'll be swimdiggled" were expressions that a mucker might use, but that a giltedged young gazabo would never attempt to play up, even before a coon. The language [sic] said that fathers must not say --!**?!--!, no matter if a guy waltzed up and walloped poor old pop on the beezer, and that only pie-trimmers and hash-slingers would ever condescend to come across with such rough stiff as "Aw, nix on that," "Cheese it" and "Shut your trap." >> ---------- I think this is an early appearance of "pizzazz" but the word does not seem to be in its usual (later) sense. "Hog-wrestle" and the interjection "fudge" seem to be early, too, and maybe some other items. -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 01:36:02 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:36:02 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: Acka-backa, soda cracker > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray-vo': >>>> > I knew only the "Catch-a-Jap" version of Eenie Meenie. But, now that I > see your version of it, Larr, I'm reminded that the version that I > learned of Acka-Backa had, after the ethnic slur, a line: > > My mother told me to pick the very best one > O-U-T spells out goes YOU! > > It's an interesting coincidence that two different chants both include > a very similar line that kinda blows up the rhythm of each chant. > <<< > > If the rhythm were maintained it would be easier to predict in real > time > (or, as we used to say, on the fly) where the count would end up. ISTM > that > it's less predictable this way, and so a desirable characteristic (a > "survival trait") in a counting-out verse. > > > mark by hand > That is quite obvious, Mark. Well, at least it *became* quite obvious, once you had pointed it out.;-) -Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 01:47:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:47:04 -0800 Subject: Slang of 1912 (including "pizzazz") Message-ID: Really takes me back! JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Slang of 1912 (including "pizzazz") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From N'archive: ---------- _Mansfield News_ (Mansfield OH), 7 Dec. 1912: p. 10(?), col. 3: << The Clean Language League of America, which is plum nuts about being dead set against slang, cuss words, risque stories, purple ragtime and wriggly cabaret shindigs -- not because it cares a whoop, but because such things always sound like heck to strangers -- held a wild-eyed jamboree here tonight and cooked up plans for a grand hallelujah campaign to induce everybody to climb into the pure-words wagon and swear off on throwing the lowbrow lingo. Quite a considerable bunch of language bugs took the splurge and the enthusiasm was all to the velvet. According to the dope that was passed out today by one of the high moguls, Tommy Russell, the main doing tonight was to pick out a publicity gang which will have the job of throwing this line of bull into every state in the union, being particularly strong on the schools and colleges, and not passing up the educational hangouts for skirts. The side show of the movement will be to go after the kind of music that you hear in the all-night dumps and the public hog-rassles. Brother Russell declared, bo, that his crowd had already framed it up with some of the big guys in the music world to put the kibosh on this line of junk, and that it was only a question of time before they would have such pieces as "When I Get You Alone Tonight" completely on the pizzazz. Another idea of the league is to put a straw boss in every other state for the purpose of hitching up with mutts as dippy as himself in order to help the good word along. This state gink is to be a sort of an Old-Miss-Over-All and the purity expert in his particular neck of the woods. The crowd passed a whole lot of hifalutin resolutions. They said that it made them as sore as a goat to have to hear mothers using slang in the presence of the kids, because it was a 10 to 1 shot that it would put the little duffers' morals on the blink. They said that sister must not say "fudge" -- not even when there was nobody but guineas around -- because "fudge" wasn't a proper dido to find in the flossie's vocabulary. They pulled quite a bunch of stuff about what was O.K. for little brother to let himself loose on, but they swore to goodness that "doggone" was a doggone bad thing to say, and that "gosh darn" was putrid, and that "hully gee" and "I'll be swimdiggled" were expressions that a mucker might use, but that a giltedged young gazabo would never attempt to play up, even before a coon. The language [sic] said that fathers must not say --!**?!--!, no matter if a guy waltzed up and walloped poor old pop on the beezer, and that only pie-trimmers and hash-slingers would ever condescend to come across with such rough stiff as "Aw, nix on that," "Cheese it" and "Shut your trap." >> ---------- I think this is an early appearance of "pizzazz" but the word does not seem to be in its usual (later) sense. "Hog-wrestle" and the interjection "fudge" seem to be early, too, and maybe some other items. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 01:51:17 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:51:17 -0500 Subject: "I see London, I see France" (1967) Message-ID: MISC. LONDON TIMES--It looks like NYU has stopped subscribing to this, so I can't check "I see London, I see stars" and "I see London, I see France." Is NYU saving money, George Thompson? PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--Wasn't the Boston Globe supposed to arrive some time in January?...Aren't they supposed to finish the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune this year? Wouldn't it help if ProQuest ADDED SOME NEW MATERIAL FOR 2005?? -------------------------------------------------------------- "I SEE LONDON, I SEE FRANCE" (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Playground Daily News Wednesday, June 28, 1967 Fort Walton Beach, Florida ...to hIs teenage granddaughter: "I SEE LONDON, I SEE France I sI.'0 someone's.....good graces of a southern neIghbor to SEE to It that harassed and ImprIsoned.. Pg. 4, col. 1: The other day we heard a grandfather reach back into his mental notebook and come up with this very timely, appropriate limerick as he spoke to his teenage granddaughter: "I see London, I see France I see someone's underpants."--Springfield (Minn.) Advance-Press From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 02:05:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:05:50 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh. Okay. I got it. WRT the underwater obstruction, the point is that such an object is very hard, as the head of a black person was once widely reputed to be. It was believed that a black person could suffer no harm from a good beating, as long as all blows were directed to and landed on his head. The uncharted underwater mountain peak that the submarine struck is a perfect example of a niggerhead in the nautical sense. About thirty years ago, former Senator Hollings, in a speech in which he abjured his former stand-in-the-schoolhouse-door defense of segregation, noted that he had seen with his own eyes black people who had been beaten into imbecility by white people who truly believed that they were just working off a little excess energy, having a little fun, and not doing any permanent damage. -Wilson Gray On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:57 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> -Wilson Gray writes: >> I was completely unaware of the term "nigger toe" till I was in the >> Army in 1961. A white, fellow G.I., also from Texas, explained it to >> me. Of course, once I'd heard the explanation, the relevance of the >> usage was immediately obvious. I have no idea what a "coneflower" is, >> so you've lost me on that one. However, I do know "niggerhead," but >> primarily as a literary term for an underwater obstruction that can >> rip >> out the bottom of a commercial fishing boat. >> > ~~~~~~~~~ > Coneflowers are composites. The one in question, /Rudbeckia > occidentalis/, > has a dome-shaped disc and is missing ray flowers altogether. Sort of > like > Echinacea or Black-eyed susan without the outer ring of petals. > AM > > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jan 31 02:37:08 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:37:08 -0500 Subject: "I see London, I see France" (1967) Message-ID: This I remember from my elementary school days. It must be 1950 anyway. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Sunday, January 30, 2005 at 8:51 PM -0500 wrote: >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Playground Daily News Wednesday, June 28, 1967 Fort Walton Beach, >Florida >...to hIs teenage granddaughter: "I SEE LONDON, I SEE France I sI.'0 >someone's.....good graces of a southern neIghbor to SEE to It that >harassed and ImprIsoned.. > >Pg. 4, col. 1: >The other day we heard a grandfather reach back into his mental notebook >and come up with this very timely, appropriate limerick as he spoke to >his teenage granddaughter: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 02:45:03 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:45:03 -0500 Subject: Pudden Tame (1904) Message-ID: More "Pudden Tame." Don't ask. (GOOGLE) http://landofmagic.co.uk/text_files/Whats%20Your%20Name.txt What's your name? Pudden Tame. What's your other? Bread and Butter. Where do you live? In a sieve. What's your number? Cucumber. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) THE NEW NEIGHBORS.; JIM MAKES HIS DEBUT AND CREATES A SENSATION. MAUDE BAYLISS MOSHER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 27, 1904. p. F5 (1 page): "There's a bricktop, again," sang out the teasing voice. "What's your name?" "Pudden Tame! Ask me again, and I'll tell you the same!" shouted Priscilla, goaded to anger. In the Wake of the News; DO YOU REMEMBER WAY BACK WHEN: Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 21, 1930. p. 28 (1 page): We kids were asked our name by the new kid in the neighborhood, we replied, "Puddin' Tame, ask me again and I'll tell you the same"!--C. V. C. WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE collected by Clifton Johnson edited with an introduction by Carl Withers New York: Columbia University Press 1963 Pg. 118: RHYMES AND JINGLES Question: What's your name? Answer: Pudden tame; Ask me again And I'll tell you the same. Some of the boys give a much ruder answer to this question in these words: John Brown, Ask me again and I'll knock you down. Second form: Question: What's your name? Answer: Pudden tame. Question: What's your natur'? Pg. 119: Answer: Pudden tater. Question: What's your will? Answer: Pudden swill. Third form: Question: What's your name? Answer: Pudden tame. Question: What's your other? Answer: Bread and butter. Question: Where do you live? Answer: In a sieve. Question: What's your number? Answer: Cucumber. (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) IN THE ARENA BY EDWIN L. SABIN. Century Illustrated Magazine (1881-1906). New York: May 1904. Vol. VOL. LXVIII, Iss. No. 1; p. 76 (6 pages) Fifth page, page 80: "Say--What's your name?" you inquired, as you had every right to do. "Puddin' tame; ask me again, an' I'll tell you the same," he replied insolently. From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Jan 31 02:48:44 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:48:44 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22smart=22_=3D_=22considerable?= (in number, amount, extent, =?utf-8?Q?etc.)=22?= In-Reply-To: <20050126172832.89765.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My mother (b 1919, Hart Cty, KY) used "smart" in this sense, but, as I recall, usually in the phrase "right smart" to mean something like a goodly amount, more than you might expect. She would use it in phrases such as, "you have to put a right smart of x in y." Jim Stalker stalker at msu.edu James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 03:10:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:10:10 -0500 Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I first heard the "Black/back" saying in July, 1971, at the LSA Summer Linguistics Institute. A white woman from Cleveland, Tennessee, said, "My daddy told me, 'Once you try black, you never go back.'" In those days, Cleveland, TN, was best known as the place where white students rioting against "forced integration" parodied the call - response, "See you later, alligator - After 'while, crocodile" as "See you later, integrator - After 'while, chocolate chile." -Wilson Gray On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Sexual expressions regarding black women > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > What I heard in the '70s (as a brag) was "Once black, never back." > > An old movie provided "I like my coffee like I like my women: hot, > blonde, and sweet." > > And who could forget Goddess Judy Tenuta (she of the eternal > accordion) saying (mid '90s) > > "I like my men the way I like my subways! Hot [accordion discord > here] ! Packed [accordion discord] ! And coming every five minutes > !" > > JL > > Jerry E Kane wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerry E Kane > Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In Los Angeles circa 1940/1950, we used several expressions: > > When asked, "How do you like your coffee?", the response would be: > > " I like my coffee just like my women, hot, black and only costs a > dime." > > Another expression used when alluding to a sexual liason with a black > woman: > > "Once you go black, you never come back." > > Jerry E Kane > Los Angeles, CA > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 03:12:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:12:58 -0500 Subject: "Two's a couple, Three's a crowd, Four..." (1914) Message-ID: I've seen this one in several collections...Four people on a New York City sidewalk, filled with snow. Seen just this week. WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE collected by Clifton John edited with an introduction by Carl Withers New York: Columbia University Press 1963 Pg. 134: Two's a couple, Three's a crowd, Four on the sidewalk Is never allowed. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A LINE-O'-TYPE OR TWO Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 21, 1914. p. 6 (1 page): _Signs of the Times._ In an Oskaloosa livery barn: "Two's a couple, three's a crowd, four in a buggy is not allowed." Teen Etiquette; Sidewalk Courtesies Kitte Turmell. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 1, 1949. p. G17 (1 page): That childhood chant "two's company, three's a crowd, four on the sidewalk not allowed" is a reminder to divide a foursome, two by two, and to avoid jostling, crowding, or weaving which might make any stranger regret that he or she "met" you, smack-bang, accidentally. From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 03:29:30 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:29:30 -0500 Subject: German Irish language scholar Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" In-Reply-To: <20050130050011.8E487B28C5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Daniel Cassidy wrote: >>> << Deir Quiggin fa dtaobh de t?: 'I have not noticed any tendency in Donegal for t? to pass into t?? as in parts of Connaught, Manx and Scotch Gaelic. The contact for t? is however broken very gradually and a glide resembling ? isheard.' --Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn" The southern Donegal dialect merges with Connaught and a glide resembling ? is heard. <<< Daniel, I am cc-ing this to you since I understand that you are now popping onto the subscriber list only long enough to post, then unsubbing. (I do not know of a web term for this behavior, but I might call it "sniping". It is not, IMHO, the behavior of one who wishes to engage in discussion.)) The character I see after "a glide resembling" is the section symbol, resembling a capital S with a doubled midsection. I have no idea what this is supposed to represent phonetically. I would guess, from context, something like the English "sh", a palato-alveolar voiceless fricative; but that's just a guess, and "something like" is hardly precise. -- Mark A. Mandel by hand From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 04:09:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:09:50 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought that the symbol [x] was sufficient. If the symbol is meaningless, what clarification will "voiceless velar fricative" provide? -Wilson On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I couldn't remember whether "velar" was correct, so I just didn't say > nuthin'. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:54 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau" >> Subject: Re: hooey >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> In a message dated Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:53:45 -0500, Wilson Gray >> wrote: >> >>> I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what the Russians were >>> using for communication was then called "using radio-relayed >>> telephony" >>> and is now known as "using a cell phone." So, it's not always assault >>> rifles and such that trickle down from the military for civilian use. >> >> No, no, no. What you are describing is called a "radiotelephone" or >> simply a >> "mobile phone". A "cell phone" (originally a "cellular phone") is a >> particular type of radiotelephone that did not exist until sometime >> around 1980, due >> to its need for computer power. From MWCD10 "a radiotelephone system >> in which >> a geographical area (as a city) is divided into small sections [called >> "cells", hence "cellular" - JAL] each served by a transmitter of >> limited range so >> that any available radio channed can be used in different parts of the >> area >> simultaneously." MW does not mention that as you move from one cell >> to another, >> your connection is switched automatically to the frequency of the cell >> you are >> entering (hence the need for computer power). >> >> The military does not use cell phones in combat, simply because they >> expect >> to be operating in areas in which cell phone service is either >> non-existent or >> is out of service due to battle damage. >> >> A piece of military history: one of the advantages that the Soviets >> had over >> the Germans starting about 1943 was that they had a large supply of >> Lend-Lease radio sets that they could use to eavesdrop on German >> radiotelephones. >> >> When discussing the sound represented by the Cyrillic letter "X", why >> don't >> you simply call it a "guttural"? >> >> - James A. Landau > > Jeez, I understand all of that, Jimbo. Clearly, a military telephonic > radio from fifty years ago the size of an overnight bag and weighing > fifty pounds or more is not the same as one of today's cellular > telephones, any more than a Model-T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. But > the development of one did lead to the development of the other. And > yes, I know that the argument, post hoc, ergo propter hoc, is logically > meaningless, just as is the concept of the "doorway drug." So what if > 70% or whatever percentage of heroin addicts started out smoking pot, > given that 100% per cent of them started out by being born? Clearly, > birth is a better indicator of future narcotic use than grass-use can > ever be. > > As for the Russian [x], I don't simply call it a "guttural" because > it's a velar. > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 04:16:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:16:44 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people Message-ID: WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE collected by Clifton Johnson edited with an introduction by Carl Withers New York: Columbia University Press 1963 Pg. 132: At picnics you will sometimes hear the children say: Lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade, By an old maid. (...) Here is one way to amuse a child. Clasp your hands with the fingers turned inward and repeat the following ditty, which you illustrate by changing the position of your fingers and hands: Here's the meeeting house, there's the steeple, Look inside and see all the people. Stirred by an old maid? Isn't it usually a kid? (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE) THE FIREMEN'S TOURNAMENT BY EUGENE WOOD. McClure's Magazine (1893-1926). New York: Oct 1904. Vol. VOL. XXIII, Iss. No. 6; p. 631 (11 pages) Pg. 633: Tents are raised in the vacant lots along Center Street and counters knocked together for the sale of ice-cold lemonade, lemo, lemo, lemo, made in the shade, with a spade, by an old maid, lemo, lemo. Here y'are now, gents, gitch nice cool drink, on'y five a glass. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) SOME FOURTHS OF JULY THAT THEY WILL NEVER FORGET New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 2, 1905. p. SM3 (1 page): "Here's your ice-cold lemonade, made in the shade--only five cents a glass. Walk up, roll up, tumble up, any way to get up, so that you get your money out." Other 8 -- No Title The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1905. p. B10 (1 page): A carpet-covered corner; A soap-box for a counter; A lemon, a lump of sugar, and A bucketful of water; A boy with face all freckled; And shirt and trousers ragged, With hair uncombed and feet unshod; With voice of power ringing loud, Crying his wares: Cold lemonade! Made fresh and sweet-- Stirred with a spade: At one cent for a guzzle small. And two cents if you drink your fill!" Such is the trade the Summer Boy Doth grow rich by, and much enjoy. --HELENA DAVIS. Served Under a Tree. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 26, 1910. p. 6 (1 page): >From the Newark News. It is open season for: Fried chicken (in a shoe box). Deviled eggs (skewered with toothpicks). Peanut sandwiches. (No, Charles, you remove the oiled paper before you eat them.) Potato salad (including a few ants). Sweet pickles and olives (in a butter boat). Chocolate cake (Smartboy calls it fudge). Watermelon (unripe and warm). Lemonade (stirred with a spade, in the shade, by an old made). Mrs. Donald Ryerson, Mrs. Charles E. Brown Start Journey East NANCY R--. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 10, 1926. p. 31 (1 page): Members of the Omaha Junior League are using a novel idea to swell the coffers of its treasury. They will serve lemonade each Saturday on the tenth tee at the Omaha Country club, asking no set fee for the drinks. As Saturday is men's day only, the "stirred with a spade" probably will bring in an amazing amount of money. STREET CALLS OF THE SOUTH; The Negro Pedler, Using Rhyme, Is an Adept In Advertising His Wares Vocally -- The Psychology of His Slogans New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1927. p. X24 (1 page): "Lemonade--made in the shade--stirred with a spade--lemonade!" As children are used to giving it, there is the news in the fact that it is "stirred by the hand of an old maid," prosaic information in itself and of what allure in the coaxing of a sale can only be imagined. (...) "Green corn--sure as you're born--yard long--ears strong--green corn." Shrine Circus Goes to Childrens Hospital Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 11, 1946. p. A1 (1 page): There was one slight variation: instead of pink lemonade "made in the shade and stirred with a spade," there wa cold milk in sanitary cartons. Juices, Fruits, and Ice Cream Combine In Array of Cooling Summer Drinks; Snowy Citrus Cooler Mint Delight Banana Dream Potion Raspberry Cream Fizz Strawberry Home Soda Fresh Peach Soda Purple Cow Black Cow By Eleanor Richey Johnston Written for The Christian Science Monitor. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 30, 1951. p. 10 (1 page) : >From childhood days, when one of summer's recreations was to repeat loudly and monotonously, "Lemonade made in the shade, stirred with a spade--" to adults, this beerage has been a smacking favorite. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Stevens Point Daily Journal Thursday, October 13, 1910 Stevens Point, Wisconsin ...lemo, lemonAde, MAde in the shAde, STIRRED WITH A spAde Five cents A big.....this most Interesting fungi, they mAy WITH A good book And An occAsionAl hunt.. Pg. 3?, col. 1: No one knows who invented the (Col. 2--ed.) glad refrain of the lemonade stand barker, who in stentorian tones, calls: "Lemo, lemo, lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade-- Five cents a big glass!" (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Clearfield Progress Saturday, October 28, 1944 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...THIS IS THE Church. THIS IS THE STEEPLE, Open THE Doors and THEre Are.....nade of THE tools and wea (ab.) 37 THIS unit IS a part of THE forces of THE.. Pg. 4, col. 1: One of the more intriguing bits of literature which Dr. (Dwight J.--ed.) Bradley has put out is a 16-page size leaflet bearing the old nursery rhyme title, "This is the Church, This Is the Steeple, Open the Doors...and There Are the People." Portsmouth Herald Thursday, November 04, 1954 Portsmouth, New Hampshire ...here's THE STEEPLE. Open THE doors AND SEE ALL THE PEOPLE." Unconsciously, Dr.....THE difference in his case is that ALL THE "PEOPLE" are sprawled on THE.. Pg. 5, col. 1: There's a game adults play with children to amuse them. Clasping the hands with fingers entwined inside the palms, they maneuver them, chanting: "Here's the church and here's the steeple. Open the doors and see all the people." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 04:22:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:22:50 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$6hd68j@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: Very interesting. Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a clue. -Wilson Gray On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:37 AM, Patti J. Kurtz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" > Subject: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Not sure if this site's been posted here or not. Teen Lingo is a > "dictionary" of teen slang, ironically posted by a Christina youth > ministries web site. But it might be of interest: > > http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > Patti Kurtz > Minot State University > -- > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > > Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 04:57:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:57:18 -0500 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) Message-ID: I don't know if Fred Shapiro wants this or has a variant. I heard that his wife is on the staff of the YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. OT: Nice work, DOug, on "Pizzazz." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) MAN'S HELPMEET. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 29, 1909. p. II4 (1 page): "A woman, a dog and a hickory tree, The more you beat them the better they'll be." (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284: pp. 145-192 p. 156 1 match of 'the more you beat them' in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284 Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: October 27, 1849 A spaniel, a wife, and a walnut tree, The more you beat them the better they be. TWISS's _Eldon_, iii. 136. I've been going through this book at NYU. Gotta type fast before midnight. FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS by Harry Middleton Hyatt second and revised edition memoirs of the Alma Egan Hyatt Foundations 1965 (first edition 1935) Pg. 631: RHYMES A woman, a dog, a hickory tree, The more you beat them,the better they be. Aunt Jemima ate cake, Aunt Jemima ate jelly, Aunt Jemima went home WIth a pain in her -- Now don't get excited, And don't be misled, For Aunt Jemima went home With a pain in her head. Pg. 632: Beefsteak when I'm hungry. Whiskey when I'm dry, Money when I'm hard up, And heaven when I die. Chink, chink, Chinaman, itting on fence, Trying to make dollae, Out of fifteen cents, Along came a policeman, And clubbed him on the head, Chink, chink, Chinaman, Fell down dead. Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please put a nickel, In grandpa's hat. If you haven'et a nickel, A penny will do. If you haven't that, God bless you. Pg. 634: I asked my mother for fifty cents, To see the elephant jump the fence; He jumped so high, he touched the sky, And didn't get back till the fourth of July. Pg. 636: I should worry, I should fret, I should marry a suffregette. Pg. 638: I've got a rocket, In y pocket, I cannot stop to play. Away she goes, I've burnt my toes, 'Tis Independence Day. Lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade, Good enough for any old maid. Pg. 639: One's company, Two's a couple, Three's a crowd. Pg. 644: What shall e do? Spit in our shoe. What's your name? John Brown. Ask me again, And I'll knock you down. What's your name? Pudding and tame. Ask me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's the news? The cat has new shoes. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 05:08:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:08:25 -0500 Subject: Mirror image Message-ID: NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 "... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." instead of "... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 31 06:00:19 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:00:19 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >.... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >clue. >> >>http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 06:02:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:02:24 -0500 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Pg. 632: > Beefsteak when I'm hungry. > Whiskey when I'm dry, > Money when I'm hard up, > And heaven when I die. One version of the final verse of "Junker Partner," a New Orleans black traditional song: Give me water when I'm thirsty Give me whiskey when I'm dry Give me kindness when I'm sickly Give me heaven when I die Black traditional rhyme of unknown origin When I die Bury me deep Put two jugs of molasses At my feet Put two big biscuits in my hand I'm gon' sop my way to the Promised Land > Pg. 634: > I asked my mother for fifty cents, > To see the elephant jump the fence; > He jumped so high, he touched the sky, > And didn't get back till the fourth of July. The way I learned it as a child in Texas Mary Mack Dressed in black Silver and gold buttons all down her back She asked her mother for fifty cents To see the elephant jump the fence He jumped so high, he touched the sky And didn't come down till the Fourth of July Euphemism: I'll be John Brown! for I'll be God-damned! -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 31 06:17:27 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:17:27 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people In-Reply-To: <573EAD4C.0D397B46.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >At picnics you will sometimes hear the children say: >Lemonade, >Made in the shade, >Stirred with a spade, >By an old maid. Is this the inspiration for "[somebody] has got it made in the shade" = "[somebody] has got it made"? -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 31 06:20:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:20:02 -0500 Subject: skinny-dipping, skinny dip (1947) Message-ID: >From Michael Quinion's review of _The Oxford Dictionary of Slang_: ----- http://www.worldwidewords.org/reviews/ayto.htm I do hope it will be taken advantage of, so that we don't get quite so many dreadful anachronisms, such as the scene in a recent BBC play, set in the 1930s, in which the American heroine said she was going skinny dipping; this book would have questioned that usage instantly with its note that it was first recorded only in 1966. ----- Perhaps it wasn't quite that anachronistic. Sam Clements already found "skinny-dip" from 1956: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401C&L=ads-l&P=R1191 Now "skinny-dipping" and "skinny(-)dip" can be dated back to 1947: ----- 1947 _Marion Star_ (Ohio) 2 Jul. 6/7 The height of daring was attained by boys who trudged miles into the country until they reached a swimming hole far from the madding crowd where skinny-dipping wouldn't offend anybody. The same kids, grown up, now are accustomed to see what amounts to skinny-dipping in mixed company without batting an eye. ----- 1947 _Marion Star_ (Ohio) 13 Sep. 6/7 If town moppets must be given miniature staircases because their parents are bothered about an environment of elevators, what's going to be done about giving them some of the other things city boys and girls never will have, such as as skinny dips in creeks instead of swimming pools. ----- 1948 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Texas) 14 May 2-6/1 For the present, he did not foresee skinny dipping becoming a popular pastime with American women. ----- Both of the 1947 cites are from the columnist Truman Twill, while the 1948 cite is from a United Press wire story with the headline "Scanty Swim Suit Prescribed For Your Ego" (quoting the psychologist James F. Bender, who thought that "girls should liberate themselves from their clothing"). --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 31 06:33:30 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:33:30 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:17:27 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>At picnics you will sometimes hear the children say: >>Lemonade, >>Made in the shade, >>Stirred with a spade, >>By an old maid. > >Is this the inspiration for "[somebody] has got it made in the shade" = >"[somebody] has got it made"? That's what is suggested by the HDAS entry for "have it made [in the shade]", which lists in square brackets the exact quote that Barry gave above but with the source as "1896 in Botkin _Treas. Amer. Folk._ 789". --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 06:37:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:37:07 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:00 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >> clue. >>> >>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? > > -- Doug Wilson > Exactly. It still is, as far as i'm concerned. "Wolf" is pronounced [wUf], but "woof" is pronounced [wuf]. People get thrown off by pseudo-phonetic spellings. I've noticed that the BE/Southern pronunciation of "whip, which used to be spelled "whup," by outsiders, is now more and more often being spelled "whoop," as in, "open a can of whoop-ass." Given that I pronounce "whoop" as "hoop," (cf. the '50's jump-blues song, "Whooping and Hollering," pronounced as though spelled "Hoopin 'n' Hollin," for the old-school black pronunciation and there's whooping [hupiN] cough, a common disease of my childhood now making a comeback, as an example of the old-school standard pronunciation), I'd much rather see the standard spelling used: "open a can of whip-ass." -Wilson Gray From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Jan 31 08:13:03 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:13:03 -0500 Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe Message-ID: Outside Washington, D.C., in the early 1950s, I learned of the "Catch a nigger by his toe" version when a teen-aged playground monitor cautioned us to say "tiger" instead. Well, who doesn't ?, I thought. Wilson Gray wrote: <> Besides the underwater obstacle, I have heard "niggerhead" applied to a kind of broadleaf lawn weed. It sends up a thin stalk (thinner than a dandelion stem) topped by a tight seed cluster that has a nubbly texture somewhat like the standard pre-Afro Negro hair style. (More often seen on women nowadays.) My father referred to them as "whiskers". To a lad just taking up the responsibility of lawnmowing, the weeds were more annoying than dandelions. The stalks bent out of the way of the reel-type push mower and had to be clipped or cut with a grass whip. Se?n Fitzpatrick Beer is good food http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 08:21:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:21:57 EST Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875) Message-ID: WHISKEY WHEN I'M DRY--303 Google hits, 27 Google Groups hits WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY--15 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits ... I searched for "Whisk(e)y when I'm dry." The last verse of "Heaven when I die" is too common, and the other verses change too much. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2rZD+Ozvm9zBpFEr7LzuxiLHiBf35r4+zA==) Sunday, December 31, 1989 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+whisky+when+I) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+whisky+when+I) ...toast: "Beefsteak WHEN I'M hungry; rye WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY; greenbacks WHEN I'M.....WHEN you swear, swear by your country; WHEN you lie, lie for a pretty woman.. ... _Hornellsville Tribune _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2rW6FhYaJ5pn/1t5Jt0KJKb4/ogBf4WUUg==) Friday, February 05, 1875 _Hornellsville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hornellsville+whisky+when+I) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+whisky+when+I) ...Dnluth: ''Beefsteak WHEN I'M huugryt WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY. Greenbacks WHEN I'M.....to a fountain wliieb has lorg ago run DRY. WHEN liuman hearts aro seeking.. Pg. 2, col. 6: The following is said to be a popular song in Duluth: "Beefsteak when I'm hungry, Whisky when I'm dry, Greenbacks when I'm hard-up, And Heaven when I die." ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html_ (http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html) Shortcuts: I hadn?t heard much of James "Son" Thomas before the release of Beefsteak Blues" (Evidence 26095), sessions originally recorded between 1980 and 1985. He?s got a gentle voice that sometimes rises to a sweet falsetto. The thing I like best about this pleasant journeyman is his self-penned epitaph: "Give me beefsteak when I?m hungry/Whiskey when I?m dry/Pretty women when I? m living/Heaven when I die." ? ... ... _"Rye Whisky" Traditional American Folksong 1. I'll eat when I'm ..._ (http://www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt) ... (CHORUS) 13. Seet milk when I'm hungry, Rye whisky when I'm dry, If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die. (CHORUS) 14. ... www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TNO3rvVwYr4J:www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt+"whisky+when+I'm+ dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt) ... _Corn Bread When I'm Hungry - 98.11_ (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm) ... Dock Boggs, an Appalachian banjo player and singer born in 1898: "Give me corn bread when I'm hungry, good people,/Corn whiskey when I'm dry,/Pretty women a ... www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/ban jo.htm) ... _Rye Whiskey (2)_ (http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html) ... It's beefsteak when I'm hungry, Rye Whiskey when I'm dry Greenbacks when I'm hard up and religion when I die Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry, If I ... sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html - 3k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:gVsiuxdU2NsJ:sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad /pages/tiRYEWHISx.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html) ... _Lyrics- Moonshiner_ (http://www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm) ... They're all just as sweet as the dew on the vine. Well it's rye bread when I'm hungry. Rye whiskey when I'm dry. Give greenbacks when I'm hard up. ... www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm - 7k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:I88segWvnXgJ:www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm+"wh iskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm ) ... _Tex Ritter - Rye Whiskey_ (http://www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html) ... It's a whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry If I don't get rye whiskey, well, I think I will die Sweet milk when I'm hungry, rye whiskey when I'm dry If a ... www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:L5oZLJ3CEN8J:www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/ry e.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_fi le/tex/rye.html) ... _Going to Georgia - Family Tradition Lyrics Database_ (http://www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia) ... my life a way. Beef when I'm hungry, whiskey when I'm dry, Cornbread when I'm hard up, sweet heaven when I die. Going down to Georgia ... www.playingbyear.com/resources/ Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia - 6k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:NZYiIt4oKdcJ:www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UTF -8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=Going+to+Georgia) ... _adamjhu's Yahoo! Profile_ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu) ... Favorite Quote. "Give me beefsteak when I'm hungry, whiskey when I'm dry, womens when I'm lonely, and heaven when I die. --James "Son" Thomas". ... profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu - 17k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:7ahhCM5tbSoJ:profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=en&ie=UT F-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--El Cantinero. It's the best Mexican I've ever had in New York City...in Greenwich Village...on University Place...between 11th and 12th Streets. Definitely the best of that lot. ... WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT?--Au Bon Pain. I'd like to try "hot chocolate" as I've tested NYC places for "French onion soup." Au Bon Pain has a new product called "Choco Bon Loco." (I guess that's French.) I was going to try it. "It's not like hot chocolate," a worker told me. It's four dollars, and they fill up half the cup only, all with undrinkable sludge. Thank goodness he wasn't on commission and was honest! ... WHAT WAS ON THE COVER OF SUNDAY'S NEW YORK POST?--The Iragi elections, perhaps? No way. The most important story in the world, according to the New York Post, is that Mike Piazza is marrying a woman. It's now made the front page twice in about a week. Is it any wonder that I have to beg the entire world for thirteen years to honor the black stablehands who called New York "the Big Apple"? Well, it's off to parking tickets on Monday, and they usually shut down the place over the weekend, so Mondays we have no heat... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jan 31 09:02:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:02:46 EST Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1888, 1893); Peppadew (Piquante Pepper) Message-ID: PEPPADEW (PIQUANTE PEPPER) ... PEPPADEW--5,690- Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits ... _http://www.peppadew.com/webroot/english1/PEPPADEW%20Brand.htm_ (http://www.peppadew.com/webroot/english1/PEPPADEW%20Brand.htm) ... I was walking past MANDLER'S, THE ORIGINAL SAUSAGE CO., 26 East 17th Street, _www.mandlers.com_ (http://www.mandlers.com) . Mandler's serves "Peppadew." "Peppadew" seems to be trademarked. However, OED has "Jarlsberg" and other trademarked foods. What about "pquante pepper"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- LEMONADE, MADE IN THE SHADE ... Ah! I was searching first for the third line, "stirred with a spade," hoping to get the whole thing. There's an 1891 "lemonade + made in the shade" ProQuest hit, but I couldn't find it in the text. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _MINEOLA'S FARMERS' FAIR; THE AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY HAS A GREAT DAY. JEFFREY YORKE, THE TRAINER, MEETS WITH A PROBABLY FATAL ACCIDENT --MANY INTERESTING RACES. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=106195329&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107160651&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 27, 1888. p. 2 (1 page) ... The most strident voice of all belonged to an ancient lemonade vendor, who chanted unceasingly: "Ere y'are. Ice cold lemminyade, made in the shade, stirred by the four fingers of Jenny Lind, and cooled by the ice Napoleon shot the bear upon. Only a nickel a glass and no suds." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Daily Citizen _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2kqHM4h2z9EpHA/KT95ukREvtts+CdaVtA==) Tuesday, June 27, 1893 _Iowa City,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:iowa_city+lemonade+and+made+in+the+shade+AND) _Iowa_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+lemonade+and+made+in+the+shade+AND) ...at which old fashioned LEMONADE, "MADE IN THE SHADE AND stirred by an old.....i thorough search of THE buildINg was MADE by THE police while a number of men.. Pg. 3, col. 3: Tiffin has been making great preparations for a Fourth of July celebration. During the day there will be a "grand old-fashioned picnic" at which old fashioned lemonade "made in the shade and stirred by an old maid with a rusty spade" will be served, and delicious ice cream, made from "real cream," will be there. From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Mon Jan 31 09:36:51 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:36:51 -0500 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) In-Reply-To: <20050131045722.3A85076B80@spf6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Barry, This old chestnut goes way back: A woman, a spaniel, and walnut tree, The more you beat them, the better they be. Brewer's Readers Handbook (1897) attributes it to John Taylor "The Water Poet" (1630). Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) > The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284: pp. 145-192 > p. 156 1 match of 'the more you beat them' > > in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284 > Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: October 27, > 1849 > > A spaniel, a wife, and a walnut tree, > The more you beat them the better they be. > TWISS's _Eldon_, iii. 136. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Mon Jan 31 09:49:31 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:49:31 +0000 Subject: Sexual expressions regarding black women In-Reply-To: <200501310310.j0V3AQQ6032108@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 31/1/05 3:10 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Sexual expressions regarding black women >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> What I heard in the '70s (as a brag) was "Once black, never back." >> >> An old movie provided "I like my coffee like I like my women: hot, >> blonde, and sweet." >> JL Can't remember where I heard the 'sick' topper: "I like my women like I like my coffee - ground up and in the freezer." Neil Crawford From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 12:38:02 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:38:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Imperialism" In-Reply-To: <5aa77e7ca0ea7ebdf038eec40d355df4@grinchy.com> Message-ID: imperialism (OED 1858) 1833 _Times_ 5 Aug. 3 "Yet there are among these," you observe with disdain, "pretenders to imperialism? And the dust of the Buonapartes thinks to create a party, though it has proved itself destitute of power, imagination, youth, and courage." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 12:46:49 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:46:49 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Collectivism" In-Reply-To: <5aa77e7ca0ea7ebdf038eec40d355df4@grinchy.com> Message-ID: collectivism (OED 1880) 1869 _Times_ 16 Sept. 6 He was ... little prepared to see the discussion turn on the expediency of abolishing all rights of individual property, and establishing the principle of "Collectivism," or Communism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 12:53:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:53:57 -0800 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 12:56:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:56:31 -0800 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) Message-ID: "A woman, a dog, and a hickory tree..." appears (in full) in Crane's "The Red Badge of Courage" (1894-95). JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if Fred Shapiro wants this or has a variant. I heard that his wife is on the staff of the YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS. OT: Nice work, DOug, on "Pizzazz." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) MAN'S HELPMEET. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 29, 1909. p. II4 (1 page): "A woman, a dog and a hickory tree, The more you beat them the better they'll be." (MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN) The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284: pp. 145-192 p. 156 1 match of 'the more you beat them' in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 23, Issue 284 Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: October 27, 1849 A spaniel, a wife, and a walnut tree, The more you beat them the better they be. TWISS's _Eldon_, iii. 136. I've been going through this book at NYU. Gotta type fast before midnight. FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS by Harry Middleton Hyatt second and revised edition memoirs of the Alma Egan Hyatt Foundations 1965 (first edition 1935) Pg. 631: RHYMES A woman, a dog, a hickory tree, The more you beat them,the better they be. Aunt Jemima ate cake, Aunt Jemima ate jelly, Aunt Jemima went home WIth a pain in her -- Now don't get excited, And don't be misled, For Aunt Jemima went home With a pain in her head. Pg. 632: Beefsteak when I'm hungry. Whiskey when I'm dry, Money when I'm hard up, And heaven when I die. Chink, chink, Chinaman, itting on fence, Trying to make dollae, Out of fifteen cents, Along came a policeman, And clubbed him on the head, Chink, chink, Chinaman, Fell down dead. Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please put a nickel, In grandpa's hat. If you haven'et a nickel, A penny will do. If you haven't that, God bless you. Pg. 634: I asked my mother for fifty cents, To see the elephant jump the fence; He jumped so high, he touched the sky, And didn't get back till the fourth of July. Pg. 636: I should worry, I should fret, I should marry a suffregette. Pg. 638: I've got a rocket, In y pocket, I cannot stop to play. Away she goes, I've burnt my toes, 'Tis Independence Day. Lemonade, Made in the shade, Stirred with a spade, Good enough for any old maid. Pg. 639: One's company, Two's a couple, Three's a crowd. Pg. 644: What shall e do? Spit in our shoe. What's your name? John Brown. Ask me again, And I'll knock you down. What's your name? Pudding and tame. Ask me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's the news? The cat has new shoes. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 12:59:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:59:44 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >.... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >clue. >> >>http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 13:01:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:01:52 -0800 Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) Message-ID: "Beefsteak when I'm hungry..." Frequently reported in the traditional song "Rye Whiskey." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 30, 2005, at 11:57 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Pg. 632: > Beefsteak when I'm hungry. > Whiskey when I'm dry, > Money when I'm hard up, > And heaven when I die. One version of the final verse of "Junker Partner," a New Orleans black traditional song: Give me water when I'm thirsty Give me whiskey when I'm dry Give me kindness when I'm sickly Give me heaven when I die Black traditional rhyme of unknown origin When I die Bury me deep Put two jugs of molasses At my feet Put two big biscuits in my hand I'm gon' sop my way to the Promised Land > Pg. 634: > I asked my mother for fifty cents, > To see the elephant jump the fence; > He jumped so high, he touched the sky, > And didn't get back till the fourth of July. The way I learned it as a child in Texas Mary Mack Dressed in black Silver and gold buttons all down her back She asked her mother for fifty cents To see the elephant jump the fence He jumped so high, he touched the sky And didn't come down till the Fourth of July Euphemism: I'll be John Brown! for I'll be God-damned! -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Mon Jan 31 13:05:32 2005 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:05:32 -0500 Subject: slip-shucking Message-ID: Reading a local op-ed piece this morning, I ran across the phrase "slip-shucking." From context I was able to determine that it means something like "hoodwink." I found that SlipShuck is the name of a mountain or something and that the term "slip shuck" is used in racing to refer to something about putting nuts on bolts. Since Dare 4 ends at sk, I thought I would ask if anyone has anymore information on this term, what it means, and widespread its use is. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 13:05:56 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:05:56 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Impressionism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: impressionism (OED, 2., 1882) 1878 _Times_ 6 Dec. 3 In these days of "impressionism," when the "blottesque" is apt to run riot, in reaction against the over-minuteness intolerantly insisted on in certain schools, such work as Mrs. Allingham's is specially noticeable as showing how conscientiousness and thoroughness may be reconciled with artistic requirements. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 13:10:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:10:56 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." Losing it. JL Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >.... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >clue. >> >>http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 14:03:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:03:47 -0500 Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The variation among these old songs is impressive. I know at least three other versions of "Junker/Junko/Junkie Partner." The one I gave is the version that I learned first, in 1950, so I tend to think of it as the "right" version. But, actually, I have no clue as to what version is oldest. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 3:21 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > WHISKEY WHEN I'M DRY--303 Google hits, 27 Google Groups hits > WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY--15 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits > ... > I searched for "Whisk(e)y when I'm dry." The last verse of "Heaven > when I =20 > die" is too common, and the other verses change too much. > ... > ... > ... > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > ... > _Chronicle Telegram _=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3D9OTicI1+LyyKID/ > 6NLMW2rZD+= > Ozvm9zBpFEr7LzuxiLHiBf35r4+zA=3D=3D) Sunday, December 31,=20 > 1989 _Elyria,_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity: > elyria+whisky+whe= > n+I) _Ohio_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate: > ohio+whisky+when= > +I) =20 > ...toast: "Beefsteak WHEN I'M hungry; rye WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY; > greenbacks=20 > WHEN I'M.....WHEN you swear, swear by your country; WHEN you lie, lie > for a= > =20 > pretty woman.. > ... > > _Hornellsville Tribune _=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3DONKPmHWqWNiKID/ > 6NLMW2rW6F= > hYaJ5pn/1t5Jt0KJKb4/ogBf4WUUg=3D=3D) Friday, February 05,=20 > 1875 _Hornellsville,_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dcity: > hornellsville+whi= > sky+when+I) _New York_=20 > (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=3Dstate: > new_york+whisky+= > when+I) ...Dnluth: ''Beefsteak WHEN=20 > I'M huugryt WHISKY WHEN I'M DRY. Greenbacks WHEN I'M.....to a > fountain=20 > wliieb has lorg ago run DRY. WHEN liuman hearts aro seeking.. > Pg. 2, col. 6: > The following is said to be a popular song in Duluth: "Beefsteak when > I'm =20 > hungry, Whisky when I'm dry, Greenbacks when I'm hard-up, And Heaven > when I=20= > =20 > die." > ... > ... > ... > (GOOGLE) > ... > _http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html_=20 > (http://www.bluesaccess.com/No_35/again.html)=20 > Shortcuts: I hadn=E2=80=99t heard much of James "Son" Thomas before > the rele= > ase of =20 > Beefsteak Blues" (Evidence 26095), sessions originally recorded > between 198= > 0=20 > and 1985. He=E2=80=99s got a gentle voice that sometimes rises to a > sweet fa= > lsetto. =20 > The thing I like best about this pleasant journeyman is his > self-penned epit= > aph:=20 > "Give me beefsteak when I=E2=80=99m hungry/Whiskey when I=E2=80=99m > dry/Pre= > tty women when I=E2=80=99 > m living/Heaven when I die." =E2=80=A6 > ... > ... > _"Rye Whisky" Traditional American Folksong 1. I'll eat when I'm > ..._=20 > (http://www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt)=20 > ... (CHORUS) 13. Seet milk when I'm hungry, Rye whisky when I'm dry, > If a > tree don't fall on me, I'll live till I die. (CHORUS) 14. ... =20 > www.pdmusic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt - 4k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:TNO3rvVwYr4J:www.pdmusic.org/ > folk/Ry= > e_Whisky.txt+"whisky+when+I'm+ > dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.pdmus= > ic.org/folk/Rye_Whisky.txt) =20 > ... > =20 > _Corn Bread When I'm Hungry - 98.11_=20 > (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm)=20 > ... Dock Boggs, an Appalachian banjo player and singer born in 1898: > "Give=20 > me corn bread > when I'm hungry, good people,/Corn whiskey when I'm dry,/Pretty women > a ...= > =20 > www.theatlantic.com/issues/98nov/banjo.htm - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.theat= > lantic.com/issues/98nov/ban > jo.htm) =20 > ... =20 > _Rye Whiskey (2)_=20 > (http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html)=20 > ... It's beefsteak when I'm hungry, Rye Whiskey when I'm dry > Greenbacks=20 > when I'm hard > up and religion when I die Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I > cry, If=20= > I=20 > ...=20 > sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html - 3k - > _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:gVsiuxdU2NsJ: > sniff.numachi.com/~rick= > heit/dtrad > /pages/tiRYEWHISx.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - > _Simila= > r=20 > pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > sniff.num= > achi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRYEWHISx.html) =20 > ...=20 > _Lyrics- Moonshiner_ > (http://www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm)=20 > ... They're all just as sweet as the dew on the vine. Well it's rye > bread=20 > when I'm hungry. > Rye whiskey when I'm dry. Give greenbacks when I'm hard up. ...=20 > www.dubba.com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm - 7k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:I88segWvnXgJ:www.dubba.com/ > hookah/ly= > rics/moonshiner.htm+"wh > iskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.dubba= > .com/hookah/lyrics/moonshiner.htm > ) =20 > ...=20 > _Tex Ritter - Rye Whiskey_=20 > (http://www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html)=20 > ... It's a whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry If I don't get > rye=20 > whiskey, well, > I think I will die Sweet milk when I'm hungry, rye whiskey when I'm > dry If=20= > a=20 > ...=20 > www.twin-music.com/azlyrics/r_file/tex/rye.html - 4k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:L5oZLJ3CEN8J:www.twin- > music.com/azly= > rics/r_file/tex/ry > e.html+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.twin-= > music.com/azlyrics/r_fi > le/tex/rye.html) =20 > ...=20 > _Going to Georgia - Family Tradition Lyrics Database_=20 > (http://www.playingbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx? > song=3DGoing+to+Georgia)=20 > ... my life a way. Beef when I'm hungry, whiskey when I'm dry, > Cornbread =20 > when > I'm hard up, sweet heaven when I die. Going down to Georgia ... =20 > www.playingbyear.com/resources/ Lyrics.aspx?song=3DGoing+to+Georgia - > 6k -=20 > _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:NZYiIt4oKdcJ: > www.playingbyear.com/re= > sources/Lyrics.aspx? > song=3DGoing+to+Georgia+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&i= > e=3DUTF > -8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > www.playi= > ngbyear.com/resources/Lyrics.aspx?song=3DGoing+to+Georgia) =20 > ...=20 > _adamjhu's Yahoo! Profile_ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu)=20 > ... Favorite Quote. "Give me beefsteak when I'm hungry, whiskey when > I'm =20 > dry, womens > when I'm lonely, and heaven when I die. --James "Son" Thomas". ...=20 > profiles.yahoo.com/adamjhu - 17k - _Cached_=20 > (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:7ahhCM5tbSoJ: > profiles.yahoo.com/adam= > jhu+"whiskey+when+I'm+dry"&hl=3Den&ie=3DUT > F-8) - _Similar pages_=20 > (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated: > profiles.= > yahoo.com/adamjhu) =20 > ...=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----= > -- > --------------------------------------------------------=20 > COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:=20 > WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--El Cantinero. It's the best Mexican I've > ever=20 > had in New York City...in Greenwich Village...on University > Place...between=20= > =20 > 11th and 12th Streets. Definitely the best of that lot.=20 > ...=20 > WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT?--Au Bon Pain. I'd like to try "hot=20 > chocolate" as I've tested NYC places for "French onion soup." Au Bon > Pain h= > as a new=20 > product called "Choco Bon Loco." (I guess that's French.) I was going > to tr= > y=20 > it. "It's not like hot chocolate," a worker told me. It's four > dollars, and= > =20 > they fill up half the cup only, all with undrinkable sludge. Thank > goodness= > he=20 > wasn't on commission and was honest!=20 > ...=20 > WHAT WAS ON THE COVER OF SUNDAY'S NEW YORK POST?--The Iragi > elections,=20 > perhaps? No way. The most important story in the world, according to > the Ne= > w York=20 > Post, is that Mike Piazza is marrying a woman. It's now made the > front page= > =20 > twice in about a week. Is it any wonder that I have to beg the entire > world= > =20 > for thirteen years to honor the black stablehands who called New York > "the=20= > Big=20 > Apple"? Well, it's off to parking tickets on Monday, and they usually > shut=20 > down the place over the weekend, so Mondays we have no heat...=20 > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 14:10:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:10:51 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How can one tell? -Wilson, just wondering On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." > > Losing it. > > JL > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >> clue. >>> >>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 15:15:03 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:15:03 -0500 Subject: Acka-backa, soda cracker In-Reply-To: <20050131050024.33349B2532@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: >>>>> ****************************** "There was an old man of Milan Whose verses never would scan. He said, "As a poet, My fault, and I know it, Is that I always try to get as many words into the very last line as I possibly can." --Anon., with the middle lines by JL because I can't remember the originals. <<<<< This has something in common with 2. There was a young man of Peru whose limericks stopped at line 2. and 1. There was a young man of Verdun which I heard or read I-don't-remember-where, and which seem to require a finisher: 0. [This limerick would be about the young man from St. Paul whose limericks had no lines at all... but, of course, it doesn't exist.] -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 15:22:08 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: "ho ho ho" should be in the dictionary [was Re: Ho ho ho!] In-Reply-To: <20050131050024.33349B2532@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >>>>> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that Poe's "The Bells" is pretty much the only occasion for most people to utter, or hear, the wonderful word "tintinnabulation" <<<<< ... perhaps is unaware of the excellent musical setting of that poe-m by the late folksinger Phil Ochs. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 31 15:28:35 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:28:35 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: <20050131050024.33349B2532@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray comments: >>>>> I thought that the symbol [x] was sufficient. If the symbol is meaningless, what clarification will "voiceless velar fricative" provide? <<<<< um, I was responding to "guttural", without ready access to the preceding discussion. Of course I agree with you there. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 15:30:21 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:30:21 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Eminent Domain" Message-ID: Nice work, Fred. This may be the origin of the term. But wasn't The Law of Nations published in 1758? "Eminent domain" must have been in it before 1805, because there are cases from 1796 that discuss eminent domain and cite Vattel. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 9:11 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Eminent Domain" eminent domain (OED 1850) 1805 Emer de Vattel _The Law of Nations_ 173 (Making of Modern Law) The right which belonged to the society or to the sovereign, of disposing, in case of necessity and for the public safety, of all the wealth contained in the state is called the _eminent domain_. ... If the nation disposes of the _public property_, in virtue of his eminent domain, the alienation is valid, as having been made with a sufficient power. Fred Shapiro From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 16:12:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:12:54 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: Words mispelled. Buttons rongpushed. Ize blured. World sems nycer.. JL. Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How can one tell? -Wilson, just wondering On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." > > Losing it. > > JL > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >> clue. >>> >>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp > > I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 31 16:54:20 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:54:20 -0600 Subject: "I see London, I see France" (1967) Message-ID: > PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--Wasn't the Boston Globe > supposed to arrive some time in January?...Wouldn't it help if ProQuest ADDED SOME > NEW MATERIAL FOR 2005?? I subscribe through SABR, and they say it won't be until March before the Boston Globe is online. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 31 17:22:09 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:22:09 -0500 Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people Message-ID: I learned the church-steeple finger game from my mother or possibly great-aunt in the mid 1940s. Mother born 1900, great-aunt born ca. 1870, both in Springfield, Mass. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Date: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:16 pm Subject: Lemonade, made in the shade (1904); Church steeple & people > WHAT THEY SAY IN NEW ENGLAND AND OTHER AMERICAN FOLKLORE > collected by Clifton Johnson > edited with an introduction by Carl Withers > New York: Columbia University Press > 1963 > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Clearfield Progress Saturday, October 28, 1944 Clearfield, > Pennsylvania...THIS IS THE Church. THIS IS THE STEEPLE, Open THE > Doors and THEre Are.....nade of THE tools and wea (ab.) 37 THIS > unit IS a part of THE forces of THE.. > Pg. 4, col. 1: > One of the more intriguing bits of literature which Dr. (Dwight J.- > -ed.) Bradley has put out is a 16-page size leaflet bearing the > old nursery rhyme title, "This is the Church, This Is the Steeple, > Open the Doors...and There Are the People." > > Portsmouth Herald Thursday, November 04, 1954 Portsmouth, New > Hampshire...here's THE STEEPLE. Open THE doors AND SEE ALL THE > PEOPLE." Unconsciously, Dr.....THE difference in his case is that > ALL THE "PEOPLE" are sprawled on THE.. > Pg. 5, col. 1: > There's a game adults play with children to amuse them. Clasping > the hands with fingers entwined inside the palms, they maneuver > them, chanting: "Here's the church and here's the steeple. Open > the doors and see all the people." > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 31 17:28:23 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:28:23 -0500 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Perhaps he meant to say "prejudge"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:53 am Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) > Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : > > "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, > who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice > Jackson from the start." > > What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson > from the start. > > JL > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jan 31 17:36:49 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:36:49 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties Message-ID: The children among us will not know that Burma Shave was a brand of shaving soap which posted these rhymes on sets of small signs by the roadside, each line on a separate sign. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:10 am Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > A couple from the 'Forties: > > We know > How much > You love that gal > But use both hands > When driving, pal > Burma-Shave > > Car in ditch > Man in tree > Moon was full > So was he > Burma-Shave > > -Wilson Gray > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jerry E Kane > > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > -------- > > > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > > > Shaving brushes > > You'll soon see 'em > > On a shelf > > In some museum > > Burma-Shave > > > > His cheek > > Was rough > > His chick vamoosed > > And now she won't > > Come home to roost > > Burma-Shave > > > > On curves ahead > > Remember, sonny > > That rabbit's foot > > Didn't save > > The bunny > > Burma-Shave > > > > If your peach > > Keeps out > > Of reach > > Better practice > > What we preach > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > Jerry E Kane > > Los Angeles, CA > > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 17:38:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:38:28 -0800 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Good suggestion, George. But the bigger question is, "Why didn't he say it?" Lapsus linguae ? Or something far more sinister ? Wondering, Jon George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps he meant to say "prejudge"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:53 am Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) > Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : > > "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, > who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice > Jackson from the start." > > What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson > from the start. > > JL > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jan 31 17:52:17 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:52:17 -0600 Subject: "Complicit" In-Reply-To: <41CCD315@mail.carr.org> Message-ID: 'Complicit' is in WNW 4th ed, run in at the entry 'complicitous'. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 Fred Shapiro wrote: > > >Here's a fairly common word that is not in the OED: > > > > > >complicit (not in OED) > > > >1969 _University of Kansas Law Review_ XVII. 631 (Hein > Online) Consumers, > >as the result of their peculiar personalities and motivations, are > >complicit partners in deception, and in some cases may be > almost solely > >the cause for any misperceptions that occur. And Orin Hargraves replied: > It's also curiously missing from RHUD, WNW-4, and Collins. > ODE's got it, > however, and says "1940s: back-formation from complicity." > (but with no > citational evidence). MW-11 says 1973. AH-4 doesn't date it. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 18:03:23 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:03:23 -0500 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: It's a legalism. Events and evidence that are unfair to one party are said to prejudice that party. Here's a few examples from recent cases. I'm not going to bother with cites, because this usage is extremely common. "Conversely, evidence which is not relevant to prove some part of the prosecution's case should not be admitted solely to inflame the jury and prejudice the defendant." "An error is harmless if (1) the error did not prejudice the defendant or the prejudice was de minimis . . . ." "To be defamatory, a statement need only prejudice the plaintiff in the eyes of a substantial and respectable minority of the community." Presumably, what the attorney meant was that the nature of the jury would prejudice (i.e., be prejudicial to) Jackson. It would not be idiomatic, in this context, to say that persons prejudice Jackson. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:54 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 18:18:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:18:03 -0800 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: Thank you, John. So it's a well established stupidism. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a legalism. Events and evidence that are unfair to one party are said to prejudice that party. Here's a few examples from recent cases. I'm not going to bother with cites, because this usage is extremely common. "Conversely, evidence which is not relevant to prove some part of the prosecution's case should not be admitted solely to inflame the jury and prejudice the defendant." "An error is harmless if (1) the error did not prejudice the defendant or the prejudice was de minimis . . . ." "To be defamatory, a statement need only prejudice the plaintiff in the eyes of a substantial and respectable minority of the community." Presumably, what the attorney meant was that the nature of the jury would prejudice (i.e., be prejudicial to) Jackson. It would not be idiomatic, in this context, to say that persons prejudice Jackson. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:54 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jan 31 18:35:51 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:35:51 -0500 Subject: Mirror image In-Reply-To: <84ef48cc78a84a3a7bcfc6eb809dd46e@rcn.com> Message-ID: >NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 > >"... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." > >instead of > >"... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." ~~~~~~~~~~ Total confusion over the inflexions of /to lie/ and /to lay/ is the order of the day. The contemporary writer, for instance, who will boldly use "laid" for the preterit of /lay/ is rarer than those who feebly use "lay." The boo-boo with "lain" above is a rarity in itself, since even the existence of /lain/ is nearly unknown, nowadays, nevermind attaching it to the right verb. Factors such as being rudely corrected by persons like me; the sexual connotations of /laid/; embedded tropes like "Now I lay me....."; and the "lay of the land", probably add to the confusion. I very much doubt that the old paradigms will ever become firmly reestablished. I wish I didn't find it so irritating. Perhaps I should, like the White Queen, practice believing impossible things before breakfast each day. (It might help in swallowing the world news, too.) A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 18:37:57 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:37:57 -0500 Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Message-ID: I'm not convinced that it's a stupidism. It's a term that fills an (extremely important) need and for which there is no precisely equivalent term. ("Prejudge" doesn't work; that's something that can be done only by the judge or jury.) Like many specialized terms, it sounds odd to the broader community. The lawyer on Fox and Friends should have used different wording, especially since most people know about prejudice only in the sense of racial/group prejudice, but I don't have a problem with any of the uses I quoted. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Thank you, John. So it's a well established stupidism. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a legalism. Events and evidence that are unfair to one party are said to prejudice that party. Here's a few examples from recent cases. I'm not going to bother with cites, because this usage is extremely common. "Conversely, evidence which is not relevant to prove some part of the prosecution's case should not be admitted solely to inflame the jury and prejudice the defendant." "An error is harmless if (1) the error did not prejudice the defendant or the prejudice was de minimis . . . ." "To be defamatory, a statement need only prejudice the plaintiff in the eyes of a substantial and respectable minority of the community." Presumably, what the attorney meant was that the nature of the jury would prejudice (i.e., be prejudicial to) Jackson. It would not be idiomatic, in this context, to say that persons prejudice Jackson. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:54 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: prejudice, v. (as stupidism) Fox & Friends, Jan. 31, 2005 : "If you have a jury of older people, who believe in family values, who are Christians, who have children, they're going to prejudice Jackson from the start." What the attorney means is, they'll be prejudiced against Jackson from the start. JL From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 18:52:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:52:20 -0500 Subject: final or linking /l/ Message-ID: Our local Sunday paper had a column by the managing editor stipulating rules for letters to the editor. She noted that some writers, having sent in a letter, then decide "to withdrawal it." I can only assume that she is from Southeast Ohio, where a linking /l/ is common. As in the case of my earlier cited "drawling," her pronunciation has slipped into her spelling. (No doubt she'll get some irate letters from the J-School or the English dept.) Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 1-740-593-4568 http://www.ohio.edu/linguistics/ From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Mon Jan 31 19:06:34 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:06:34 -0500 Subject: Mirror image In-Reply-To: <20050131183500.EF2117ADB6@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Does lie/lay confusion derive in part from overcorrection? "As I have heard a man say ... his Wife was not to be beleev'd, for she would lye like a Dogge; marry, (quoth the other) I would give twelve pence to see that trick, for I have seene a Dogge to lye with his Nose in his Tayle." - John Taylor "A Dogge of Warre" (1630) On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:35 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Mirror image > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 >> >> "... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." >> >> instead of >> >> "... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." > ~~~~~~~~~~ > Total confusion over the inflexions of /to lie/ and /to lay/ is the > order > of the day. > The contemporary writer, for instance, who will boldly use "laid" for > the > preterit of /lay/ is rarer than those who feebly use "lay." > The boo-boo with "lain" above is a rarity in itself, since even the > existence of /lain/ is nearly unknown, nowadays, nevermind attaching > it to > the right verb. > Factors such as being rudely corrected by persons like me; the sexual > connotations of /laid/; embedded tropes like "Now I lay me....."; and > the > "lay of the land", probably add to the confusion. I very much doubt > that > the old paradigms will ever become firmly reestablished. I wish I > didn't > find it so irritating. Perhaps I should, like the White Queen, practice > believing impossible things before breakfast each day. (It might help > in > swallowing the world news, too.) > A. Murie > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 18:55:38 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:55:38 -0500 Subject: Mirror image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've read this too, but never heard it. It's a typical hypercorrection, not unusual in the NY Times, which often uses "whom" where subjective "who" is required. At 01:35 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: > >NYT Magazine Jjanuary 30, 2005 p.76, col.2 > > > >"... bamboo poles _lain_ over ... crud ..." > > > >instead of > > > >"... bamboo poles _laid_ over ... crud ..." >~~~~~~~~~~ >Total confusion over the inflexions of /to lie/ and /to lay/ is the order >of the day. >The contemporary writer, for instance, who will boldly use "laid" for the >preterit of /lay/ is rarer than those who feebly use "lay." >The boo-boo with "lain" above is a rarity in itself, since even the >existence of /lain/ is nearly unknown, nowadays, nevermind attaching it to >the right verb. >Factors such as being rudely corrected by persons like me; the sexual >connotations of /laid/; embedded tropes like "Now I lay me....."; and the >"lay of the land", probably add to the confusion. I very much doubt that >the old paradigms will ever become firmly reestablished. I wish I didn't >find it so irritating. Perhaps I should, like the White Queen, practice >believing impossible things before breakfast each day. (It might help in >swallowing the world news, too.) >A. Murie > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Jan 31 19:15:27 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:15:27 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: Didn't she say anything about 'write word'? >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/29/05 02:58PM >>> These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other. Anyone else notice this? I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." E pede Herculem, JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 19:52:46 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:52:46 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Eminent Domain" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACB63@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Baker, John wrote: > Nice work, Fred. This may be the origin of the term. But > wasn't The Law of Nations published in 1758? "Eminent domain" must have > been in it before 1805, because there are cases from 1796 that discuss > eminent domain and cite Vattel. Probably so. Here's an earlier, non-Vattel citation: 1783 _Board of American Loyalists.. The case and claim of the American loyalists impartially stated and considered. Printed by order of their agents._ 22 All these acts, with many others, are justifiable under the fundamental law of _eminent domain_, common to all civil societies. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From larry at SCROGGS.COM Mon Jan 31 20:14:36 2005 From: larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:14:36 -0800 Subject: Children's chant In-Reply-To: <20050131045215.0C6A223C568@spf7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Heard at my school in the late 1950s. Whistle while you work Khrushchev is a jerk Eisenhower's got the power But it doesn't work. I scream You scream We all scream For ice cream The first Marine went over the wall Parle vous The second Marine went over the wall Parle vous The third Marine went over the wall Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball Inkey dinkey parle vous (There were several different verses of this) Larry Larry at Scroggs.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 20:57:44 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:57:44 -0500 Subject: hooey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, okay. That makes complete sense. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 10:28 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: hooey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Wilson Gray comments: >>>>>> > I thought that the symbol [x] was sufficient. If the symbol is > meaningless, what clarification will "voiceless velar fricative" > provide? > <<<<< > > um, I was responding to "guttural", without ready access to the > preceding > discussion. Of course I agree with you there. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 21:08:08 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:08:08 -0500 Subject: California vowels Message-ID: Here's a question: I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay [ok@] or possibly [okE]. Is this backing or laxing common in California speech? The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/. Might /e/ have gone to /E/ first and then to /@/? The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed. These guys are supposed to be in San Diego, maybe LA, but only Church seemed "native." Any comments? From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jan 31 21:15:39 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:15:39 -0500 Subject: I'd Hit It? Message-ID: I'm not sure if this is intentional, a huge screwup, or an inadvertent success: McDonald's is currently running a banner ad on ESPN.com, http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index, with the message "Double Cheeseburger? | I'd Hit It | I'm a Dollar Menu Guy." As you all know, "I'd hit it" means "I would like to have sex with that person," a sentiment that seems out of place when applied to a double cheeseburger. The ad is drawing comment, one example being http://andrewteman.typepad.com/worldchamp/2005/01/mcdonalds_wants. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Jan 31 21:28:38 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:28:38 -0800 Subject: final or linking /l/ Message-ID: I'm not sure this would qualify as linking /l/. I know many people who say withdrawal because they do not know that it is not a verb--they confuse the noun and verb. They use it in sentences like "I need to withdrawal the money." One would not expect linking /l/ before /th/ and I never hear these people say linking /l/ anywhere else. Might be analogous to 'acrosst.' fritz Juengling >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 01/31/05 10:52AM >>> Our local Sunday paper had a column by the managing editor stipulating rules for letters to the editor. She noted that some writers, having sent in a letter, then decide "to withdrawal it." I can only assume that she is from Southeast Ohio, where a linking /l/ is common. As in the case of my earlier cited "drawling," her pronunciation has slipped into her spelling. (No doubt she'll get some irate letters from the J-School or the English dept.) Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 1-740-593-4568 http://www.ohio.edu/linguistics/ From pds at VISI.COM Mon Jan 31 21:32:21 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:21 -0600 Subject: California vowels In-Reply-To: <20050131211022.D6DEC94FA@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Just curious, Beverly: where was the stress? --Tom Kysilko At 1/31/2005 04:08 PM -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Here's a question: I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that >the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay >[ok@] or possibly [okE]. Is this backing or laxing common in California >speech? The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and >backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/. Might /e/ have gone >to /E/ first and then to /@/? The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't >hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed >u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Jan 31 21:50:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:50:13 -0500 Subject: Teen Lingo site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, I was really asking for info, not being defensive, Jon. How *would* a person tell? I've never seen any spelling in print except "woof" in this particular context, But, I heard this spoken years before I ever saw it in print. Even if "wolf" and "woof" had exactly the same pronunciation, I would still have to go with "wolf" and not "woof," because a "wolf-ticket" is a threat to mount a physical attack against someone. The "woofing" of a little cockerpoo would render the term ridiculous. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not every threat is made seriously. But even a joking threat has to sound threatening. At my age, I doubt that any young pepper-chest would take me seriously, if I threatened to kick his ass till my knee-joint caught on fire or if I threatened to reach down his throat and tear his asshole out. But if I threatened to step on his toes the next time that I saw him barefooted, I would sound brain-damaged and beyond ridiculous. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Words mispelled. Buttons rongpushed. Ize blured. World sems nycer.. > > JL. > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > How can one tell? > > -Wilson, just wondering > > On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." >> >> Losing it. >> >> JL >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. >> >> JL >> >> "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >>> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >>> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >>> clue. >>>> >>>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp >> >> I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > From stamasi at LINGUO.NET Mon Jan 31 22:03:44 2005 From: stamasi at LINGUO.NET (Susan Tamasi) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:44 -0500 Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male genitalia. Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"? Thanks, Susan Susan Tamasi Visiting Assistant Professor Program in Linguistics Emory University 404-727-7843 From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Jan 31 22:06:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:06:47 -0500 Subject: Gorram and Frack Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:42 -0600, Jim Parish wrote: >Mark A. Mandel lists several more examples of invented expletives in >SF. I would add: > >from Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_ (1951), "frab" (as in "frab >joint") and "slok" (as in "pile of slok"); > >and from the TV series "Farscape", a number of epithets including >"frell" (n. and v.: "what the frell", "this is a frelling mess"), "dren" >(again, "pile of..."), and "tralk" (roughly meaning "slut"). (I'm sure >there are more from that series that I'm forgetting.) A belated followup to this thread... I recently came across this list on Wikipedia: . Most of the examples mentioned thus far are included on the list, plus many more from "joojooflop" to "shpadoinkle". --Ben Zimmer From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Jan 31 22:11:41 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:11:41 -0500 Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties In-Reply-To: <20050131093605.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The irresistible, singable, stick-in-your-mindable jingle is dead With more and more pop songs selling products, the world of advertising is being turned upside down. By Joan Anderman, Globe Staff | January 9, 2005 In 1929, a barbershop quartet in Minneapolis sang a song about breakfast cereal on the radio. So began the long, lucrative, endearing, and excruciating heyday of the jingle, when cheerful tunes about things for sale permanently lodged themselves in people's brains. Humming consumers would then go out and buy Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat, or double their pleasure with Doublemint gum, or be a Pepper. best, karen At 12:36 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: George Thompson >Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The children among us will not know that Burma Shave was a brand of >shaving soap which posted these rhymes on sets of small signs by the >roadside, each line on a separate sign. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Wilson Gray >Date: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:10 am >Subject: Re: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > > A couple from the 'Forties: > > > > We know > > How much > > You love that gal > > But use both hands > > When driving, pal > > Burma-Shave > > > > Car in ditch > > Man in tree > > Moon was full > > So was he > > Burma-Shave > > > > -Wilson Gray > > > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 2:45 AM, Jerry E Kane wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jerry E Kane > > > Subject: Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > > -------- > > > > > > Burma Shave Slogans of the Fifties > > > http://www.fiftiesweb.com/burma.htm > > > > > > Shaving brushes > > > You'll soon see 'em > > > On a shelf > > > In some museum > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > His cheek > > > Was rough > > > His chick vamoosed > > > And now she won't > > > Come home to roost > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > On curves ahead > > > Remember, sonny > > > That rabbit's foot > > > Didn't save > > > The bunny > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > If your peach > > > Keeps out > > > Of reach > > > Better practice > > > What we preach > > > Burma-Shave > > > > > > > > > Jerry E Kane > > > Los Angeles, CA > > > > > <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jan 31 22:32:02 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:32:02 -0500 Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2005, at 17:03, Susan Tamasi wrote: > Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"? It's usually "frotteurist," less rarely "frotterist" or "frottist": someone who takes an erotic thrill from rubbing others in a sexual way, usually in public and usually unbeknownst to, or out of control of, the frottee. From the French verb "frotter," 'to rub or rub against," I believe. Google "frotteurist" for more than you ever wanted to know about it. The Wikipedia entry is decent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage_%28sexology%29 Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 22:59:41 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:59:41 -0500 Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex In-Reply-To: <47f243c441792055d1b51ea9e1a1f954@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: At 5:32 PM -0500 1/31/05, Grant Barrett wrote: > > >Google "frotteurist" for more than you ever wanted to know about it. >The Wikipedia entry is decent: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage_%28sexology%29 well, depending on one's sense of decency... L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:04:35 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: speak of the devil... Message-ID: ..hear the rustle of his wings. Note the last entry. L --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-16-302. Mon Jan 31 2005. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Subject: 16.302, TOC: English Today 20/4 (2004) Publisher: Cambridge University Press http://us.cambridge.org Journal Title: English Today Volume Number: 20 Issue Number: 4 Issue Date: October 2004 Main Text: Singapore, grammar, and the teaching of "internationally acceptable English" Tom Mcarthur Learning world languages Tom Mcarthur Persian loanwords in English Alan s. Kaye So what's in a book? Bob Blaisdell Latin and English as world languages Roger Wright The psychic rewards of teaching James e. Alatis Playful English: kinds of reduplication Paul Rastall "Is English we speaking": Trinbagonian in the twenty-first century Valerie Youssef Cucurbits Orin Hargraves The faces and facets of English in Malaysia Joanne Rajadurai Consonantal beginnings Michael Bulley Is the devil in the details? Jennifer Speake (ed.), 2003, The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, Oxford University Press (pp.xiv + 375. hb 0-19-860524-2) Robert Allen ----------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-16-302 --- end forwarded text From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:19:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:19:26 -0500 Subject: California vowels In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20050131153055.01c99960@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: I think it was on the first syllable. The context had the Giamatti character explaining something to Church, and Church was just nodding and saying "Okay" agreeably. I think my memory is right on this! At 04:32 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: >Just curious, Beverly: where was the stress? >--Tom Kysilko > >At 1/31/2005 04:08 PM -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>Here's a question: I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that >>the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay >>[ok@] or possibly [okE]. Is this backing or laxing common in California >>speech? The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and >>backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/. Might /e/ have gone >>to /E/ first and then to /@/? The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't >>hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed >>u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:21:54 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:21:54 -0500 Subject: final or linking /l/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting--I had never heard of this before. You may be right. But of course "acrosst" began with liaison to a vowel (if I'm not mistaken), though now it's generalized by many to all contexts. At 04:28 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote: >I'm not sure this would qualify as linking /l/. I know many people who >say withdrawal because they do not know that it is not a verb--they >confuse the noun and verb. They use it in sentences like "I need to >withdrawal the money." One would not expect linking /l/ before /th/ and I >never hear these people say linking /l/ anywhere else. Might be analogous >to 'acrosst.' >fritz Juengling > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 01/31/05 10:52AM >>> >Our local Sunday paper had a column by the managing editor stipulating >rules for letters to the editor. She noted that some writers, having sent >in a letter, then decide "to withdrawal it." I can only assume that she is >from Southeast Ohio, where a linking /l/ is common. As in the case of my >earlier cited "drawling," her pronunciation has slipped into her >spelling. (No doubt she'll get some irate letters from the J-School or the >English dept.) > >Beverly Olson Flanigan >Associate Professor of Linguistics >Ohio University >Athens, OH 45701 >1-740-593-4568 >http://www.ohio.edu/linguistics/ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 23:42:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:42:15 -0800 Subject: diffuse/ defuse Message-ID: I've already answered this one, Fritz.... JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: diffuse/ defuse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Didn't she say anything about 'write word'? >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/29/05 02:58PM >>> These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other. Anyone else notice this? I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test: "Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'" She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong." E pede Herculem, JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 23:50:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:50:39 -0800 Subject: I'd Hit It? Message-ID: Krafft-Ebing had an extensive chapter on cheeseburgers, but a "double"? If this is current elsewhere - and why not? - I haven't seen or heard it. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: I'd Hit It? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure if this is intentional, a huge screwup, or an inadvertent success: McDonald's is currently running a banner ad on ESPN.com, http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index, with the message "Double Cheeseburger? | I'd Hit It | I'm a Dollar Menu Guy." As you all know, "I'd hit it" means "I would like to have sex with that person," a sentiment that seems out of place when applied to a double cheeseburger. The ad is drawing comment, one example being http://andrewteman.typepad.com/worldchamp/2005/01/mcdonalds_wants. John Baker --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 31 23:59:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:59:51 -0800 Subject: Teen Lingo site Message-ID: The only way I could tell was that I saw the phrase in print back in '69 and it was explained that "wolf" was either the "correct" spelling or that "wolf" varied freely with "woof." Can't remember. As the kind of guy for whom these spelling unambiguously denote distinct words, it didn't occur to me right away that they were almost necessarily the same for many speakers. I was thinking not cockerpoo but mastiff. (To me, cockerpoos arf; things bigger than I am woof. These, along with "yip," are hyponyms of "bark.") (Could have said "are subsumed in," but I get even fewer opportunities to say "hyponym.") So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the published ones will be spelled "woof." In this racket, you can't win and you can't even break even! JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, I was really asking for info, not being defensive, Jon. How *would* a person tell? I've never seen any spelling in print except "woof" in this particular context, But, I heard this spoken years before I ever saw it in print. Even if "wolf" and "woof" had exactly the same pronunciation, I would still have to go with "wolf" and not "woof," because a "wolf-ticket" is a threat to mount a physical attack against someone. The "woofing" of a little cockerpoo would render the term ridiculous. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not every threat is made seriously. But even a joking threat has to sound threatening. At my age, I doubt that any young pepper-chest would take me seriously, if I threatened to kick his ass till my knee-joint caught on fire or if I threatened to reach down his throat and tear his asshole out. But if I threatened to step on his toes the next time that I saw him barefooted, I would sound brain-damaged and beyond ridiculous. -Wilson On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Words mispelled. Buttons rongpushed. Ize blured. World sems nycer.. > > JL. > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > How can one tell? > > -Wilson, just wondering > > On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:10 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I meant "woof," of course, "by 1969." >> >> Losing it. >> >> JL >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Yes. But it was already "wolf" by 1969. >> >> JL >> >> "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >>> .... Some of the terms are about seventy years old, others >>> are terms so new that, if I hadn't read the list, I wouldn't have a >>> clue. >>>> >>>> http://www.thesource4ym.com/teenlingo/index.asp >> >> I like "selling woof tickets". It used to be "wolf", didn't it? >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Mon Jan 31 03:50:55 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:50:55 -0500 Subject: n-heads Message-ID: ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871 [Rochester, Indiana] http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/Html/Newspape rs%201871-72.htm >CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house he >proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He has >collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose. Michael McKernan From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Mon Jan 31 05:16:32 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:16:32 -0500 Subject: Children's chant Message-ID: Larry Scroggs wrote: >The first Marine went over the wall >Parle vous >The second Marine went over the wall >Parle vous >The third Marine went over the wall >Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball >Inkey dinkey parle vous >(There were several different verses of this) Also 1950s; interservice rivalry The first Marine went over the top Parlez vous? The first Marine went over the top Parlez vous? The first Marine went over the top To pick up the nickels the infantry dropped Hinky dinky parlez vous. Michael McKernan