Scribner's Monthly

> > --------
> >
> > Wilson, was this in common
use in the army in the

> '50s?  Could you

> > provide a

Hey, folks, if it's already been said, do we need to say it five times more?
(Rhetorical question. Answer in deeds, not words, if you please. Definitely
not in more words.)

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text wearily prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 23 23:30:37 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:30:37 -0700
Subject: making it across the pond?
Message-ID: 

I've seen it in recent U.S .usage, but I think it's still a novelty here, confined to high-toned journalists looking for "new" expressions.

Same thing for the far more interesting "shambolic."

JL
Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: making it across the pond?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reprinted below is the conclusion of yesterday's NYT Op-Ed by Thomas
Friedman, in which the columnist is imagining the difference it would
make to GWB's policies if his vice president, instead of being Dick
Cheney, were someone who intended to run for president him- or
herself--and, to my ear, were also someone who'd spent a lot of time
in Britain:

==================
But if Mr. Bush had a vice president with an eye on 2008, I have to
believe he or she would be saying to the president right now: ''Hey
boss. What are you doing? Where are you going? How am I going to get
elected running on this dog's breakfast of antiscience,
head-in-the-sand policies?'' ==================

This led me to wonder whether "dog's breakfast" has become standard
U.S. usage. I don't remember coming across it before outside of
British, or maybe Australian or Canadian, writing, but I'm pretty
sure Friedman is no Brit, and both he and his editors presumably
believed that his readers would understand the allusion--or that they
would google it and find e.g.

The Phrase Finder (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/114550.html)
Dog's breakfast

Meaning
A mess or muddle.

Origin
Derived from the unpleasant habit of dogs, rising early before the
local townsfolk, or eating the mess of food dropped or vomited onto
the pavement the previous night.

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 23 23:38:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:38:25 -0700
Subject: "Tom Brown" as an 1896 baseball term
Message-ID: 

Certainly not news to Paul Dickson, but Tom Brown was a 36-year-old outfielder with the Washington Senators in 1896, according to

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/stats/alltime/rosters/senators/1896.html.

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: "Tom Brown" as an 1896 baseball term
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The request below comes from the assistant to Paul Dickson (author of the standard dictionary on baseball terminology). In another email Skip McAfee guesses that "Tom Brown" likely arose from an incident (involving a player by that name) which occurred shortly before the attestation in the Boston Globe--a suspicion I agree with.

Still, with his permission I'm running this by ads-l to see if anyone here sees something that we might be missing.

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From: Skip McAfee
> Reply To: xerxes7 at earthlink.net
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:37 PM
> To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Cc: Paul Dickson
> Subject: FW: "Tom Brown"
>
> Gerald:
>
> Do you have anything on the term "Tom Brown"? Peter Morris believes it may refer to a ball hit feebly back to the pitcher.
>
> Skip McAfee
> xerxes7 at earthlink.net
>
> ---
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Joanne Hulbert
> > To:
> > Date: 6/21/2005 11:34:24 PM
> > Subject: "Tom Brown"
> >
> > Paul,
> > I came across this in the Boston Globe of April 18, 1896:
> >
> > "Hamilton hit a "Tom Brown" to the pitcher and turned to the water tank with disgust depicted on his Clinton brow. . . . "
> >
> > Could a Tom Brown be a fly ball to the pitcher?
> >
> > Joanne Hulbert
> >
>
>
>
>
>

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 23 23:44:22 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:44:22 -0700
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

My impression is that I started using this in the early to mid '60s, but I was reluctant to push it so far back till Ben produced the '66 example.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote:
>
>from Garry Tudeau's Doonesbury strip of 6/21/05:
>
>-----
>A: So basically you're quitting your job to go to a party.
>B: Oh, like you've never done that?
>-----
>
>here, "like" + clause is punctuated as a question (presumably with a
>rising final intonation), but a somewhat more assured response would
>use an assertion.
>
>"as if" can be used in a similar way.
>
>i don't recall having seen any treatment, synchronic or diachronic,
>of this construction. if it's alluded to in the OED, i haven't found
>it.

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>I can't prove it, but I'm sure I was using this construction by 1970 and
>probably some years before that, though as an ironic or sarcastic
>statement rather than a question. The interrogatory force may come
>simply from the widely disdained "uptalk" phenomenon, which I at least
>took no note of till the mid '70s.

When it's an ironic/sarcastic assertion, there is often heavy stress on
the NP following "like" (especially if it's a monosyllabic pronoun):

"Like *that* matters!"
"Like *you* care!"
"Like *he* would know!"

The sarcasm can be emphasized by a preceding interjection ("yeah", "oh",
"ah", "hah", etc.).

This construction is hard to search for in the databases, but here's an
example of ironic assertional "like" from 1966 (in the same interview with
Country Joe and the Fish that I recently cited for "get spaced"):

-----
"Country Joe and the Fish" by Greg Shaw
_Mojo Navigator_, 22 November 1966 (rocksbackpages.com)
BARRY: Every time Joe McDonald gets spaced he sings old folk songs.
TOM: Now the truth comes out.
DAVID: Yeah, that's a good point, man, we all do. As a matter of fact we
all sing old folksongs when we're not doing rock'n'roll to keep our heads
straight.
JOE: That's for security; you want to go back to something that you know.
TOM: Yeah, but you just said you don't have any roots there. Yeah, like
it's a fraud for you to sing folk songs.
-----

The sarcasm isn't too heavy here, but there is clearly an ironic intent,
since Tom Weller (the band's poster designer) isn't really accusing Joe
McDonald of being a fraud for singing folk songs.

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 23 23:56:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:56:55 -0700
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

Back in those days, the introductory "like" was customarily followed by a comma, as there was almost always a slight pause between it and what followed.  Of course,  _Mojo Navigator_ may have been less punctilious.

For those who fear that the construction was lost to English with the fading away of the hippie movement and the increasing ex-beatnik mortality rate, let me reassure you. I just Googled up 16,000 exx. of "Like, who cares?"

When the sitcom _The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis_, premiered in the fall of 1959, the "like" construction was instantly popularized among youngsters such as myself, thanks to its constant use by beatnik character Maynard G. Krebs (Bob Denver in, yes, his greatest role).

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:16:12 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
wrote:

>This construction is hard to search for in the databases, but here's an
>example of ironic assertional "like" from 1966 (in the same interview
>with Country Joe and the Fish that I recently cited for "get spaced"):
>
>-----
>"Country Joe and the Fish" by Greg Shaw
>_Mojo Navigator_, 22 November 1966 (rocksbackpages.com)
>BARRY: Every time Joe McDonald gets spaced he sings old folk songs.
>TOM: Now the truth comes out.
>DAVID: Yeah, that's a good point, man, we all do. As a matter of fact we
>all sing old folksongs when we're not doing rock'n'roll to keep our heads
>straight.
>JOE: That's for security; you want to go back to something that you know.
>TOM: Yeah, but you just said you don't have any roots there. Yeah, like
>it's a fraud for you to sing folk songs.
>-----
>
>The sarcasm isn't too heavy here, but there is clearly an ironic intent,
>since Tom Weller (the band's poster designer) isn't really accusing Joe
>McDonald of being a fraud for singing folk songs.

On second thought, maybe Weller really was making a playful accusation. As
the interview continues, the charge seems to be taken (semi-)seriously:

-----
DAVID: That's his field man, he used to sing old...
JOE: Well, I'm going to forget this; I feel hostility growing in the room.
What we're doing now is just like a hint of what I think should be done
[etc.]
-----

So perhaps this is just a case of "like" used "to introduce or call
attention to the following clause" (HDAS def 3). One would probably need
to hear a recording of the interview to know for sure.

--Ben Zimmer

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From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Fri Jun 24 00:14:10 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:14:10 +0200
Subject: "conceptual plans"
Message-ID: 

Arnold Zwicky wondered about the "concept" in "conceptual plan":
>I came across this puzzling expression in the Palo Alto Daily News of
>6/16/05, in "High school plans unveiled" by Luke Stangel, which begins:
>
>-----
>Conceptual plans for a new $17 million performing arts center at
>Menlo-Atherton High School were unveiled to the public last night at
>a meeting planned for gathering feedback.
>-----
>[...]
>
>-----
>Conceptual plans are home designs that have not yet been
>finalized. ... Each of
>the conceptual plans includes a "copyright release" that gives you
>and your ...
>www.conceptualhouseplans.com/faqs.shtml
>-----
>
>I would have used "preliminary plans" here, but I suppose that
>architects and designers prefer to present themselves as dealing in
>*concepts*.
>[...]

I was sure I had come across the notion recently, most likely in French.
Google shows that "conceptual plan" is a technical term in Canadian bureaucratese.

Here  is a page about
some sort of reorganization of the child welfare services that Manitoba
provides for *its First Nations and Metis communities. We don't find out what
the problem was in the first place, and what the actual content of their
initiative is, but the bureaucratic steps are made clear; they involve a
number of different types of plans:

*    * Phase 1 – September 2000 to December 2000
      Proposals and recommendations for an initial draft plan
    * Phase 2 – January 2001 to July 2001
      Completion of the AJI-CWI Conceptual Plan
    * Phase 3 – August 2001 to April 2003
      Completion of the public feedback process, development of the Detailed
      Implementation Plan (DIP), and transition into Phase 4
    * Phase 4 – February 2003 to March 2005
      Plan substantially implemented
    * Phase 5 – April 2005 to October 2005
      Stabilization of changes implemented
*
Note that "Conceptual Plan" and "Detailed Implementation Plan" are capitalized;
the latter even gets an abbreviation.

Chris Waigl

--
Back from a two-month separation from my mailbox. Apologies to everyone I owe a message.

*

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 01:31:08 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:31:08 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:56:55 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>Back in those days, the introductory "like" was customarily followed by
>a comma, as there was almost always a slight pause between it and what
>followed.  Of course,  _Mojo Navigator_ may have been less punctilious.

Like, I think the comma is/was most often used when introducing a
sentence-initial clause, but like if it's mid-sentential then the comma
would often be dropped.

Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:

-----
At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would come
in, and like theyre white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
-----
The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just don't
go down there unless you have a spade friend with you.
("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
-----
I always used to sip my mother's beer, so like I started playin' right
then and just listened to all the different music around the country.
("Country Joe and the Fish", 22 Nov. 1966)
-----

Here's commaless "like" in both initial and medial position:

-----
Like you go to the Avalon now and you'll see... it used to be like just a
small group of people in front that were listening and then like 90% of
the audience was running around and dancing...and now like almost the
whole auditorium is covered with sitting people, and it's, I think,
considered uncool to freak out.
("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
-----

But elsewhere in the same article initial "like" gets a comma:

-----
Like, they're really good musicians, and they're tight, but so's Wilson
Pickett, you know?
("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
-----

I think the magazine staff punctuated however they, like, liked.

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 01:49:32 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:49:32 -0700
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

Like, crazy !

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:56:55 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
wrote:

>Back in those days, the introductory "like" was customarily followed by
>a comma, as there was almost always a slight pause between it and what
>followed. Of course, _Mojo Navigator_ may have been less punctilious.

Like, I think the comma is/was most often used when introducing a
sentence-initial clause, but like if it's mid-sentential then the comma
would often be dropped.

Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:

-----
At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would come
in, and like theyre white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
-----
The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just don't
go down there unless you have a spade friend with you.
("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
-----
I always used to sip my mother's beer, so like I started playin' right
then and just listened to all the different music around the country.
("Country Joe and the Fish", 22 Nov. 1966)
-----

Here's commaless "like" in both initial and medial position:

-----
Like you go to the Avalon now and you'll see... it used to be like just a
small group of people in front that were listening and then like 90% of
the audience was running around and dancing...and now like almost the
whole auditorium is covered with sitting people, and it's, I think,
considered uncool to freak out.
("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
-----

But elsewhere in the same article initial "like" gets a comma:

-----
Like, they're really good musicians, and they're tight, but so's Wilson
Pickett, you know?
("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
-----

I think the magazine staff punctuated however they, like, liked.

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 02:02:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:02:15 -0400
Subject: some figurative "evergreens"
Message-ID: 

OED has only one cite for the figurative sense of "evergreen" (n.):

-----
1878 E. JENKINS Haverholme 98 Lady Willowgrove..was an evergreen. She had
been a distinguished figure in society for three generations.
-----

Here are a few different senses:

* person (esp. a woman) with lasting appeal

-----
1806 _Evening Fire-Side_ 30 Aug. 278/3 _Evergreen_ -- A lady, who by dint
of arts preserves her complexion and the appearance of youth till sixty.
[APS]
-----
1826 _The Escritoir_ 22 Apr. 99/2 She may be considered an ever-green,
having kept possession of her attractions for forty years with
undiminished fame.
[APS]
-----

* perennially popular composition, play, etc.

-----
1858 _N.Y. Times_ 8 Jun. 5/2 If any opera deserves to be called an
evergreen, "Trovatore" is certainly that one.
-----

* perennial news topic, or an article about such a topic

-----
1968 _N.Y. Times_ 11 Aug. D19/3 Timeless topics -- "evergreens" they're
called in radio and TV -- are great favorites on talk shows. "Girl Talk"
goes in for such evergreens as fashion, adoption, manners, cancer cures,
the pros and cons of separate vacations for husbands and wives, family
relationships in general, and suicide.
-----
1999 _Slate_ 7 Sep. Evergreen: An article that could run at any time.
There are two types of evergreens: 1) an article without a direct tie-in
to the day's news (e.g., "Traffic on the Rise in Metro Area"); and 2) a
story that recurs regularly (e.g., "Elderly Threatened by Record Heat").
http://slate.msn.com/id/1003564/
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Thu Jun 23 14:49:15 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:49:15 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'? as we say
 in gb english
Message-ID: 

Here's one reply; her work is very good.

>X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:49:14 -0700
>From: elaine andersen 
>Subject: Re: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'? as we say in
>  gb     english
>To: Aubrey Nunes 
>Cc: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>X-Mailer: Sun Java(tm) System Messenger Express 6.1 HotFix 0.08 (built Dec
>   8 2004)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>Priority: normal
>Sender: 
>List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC.
>List-Unsubscribe: 
>X-LR-SENT-TO: ohiou.edu
>X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data:
>2005.6.23.13 (pm2)
>X-PMX-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/filtering/
>X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__C230066_P5 0, __CD 0,
>__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0,
>__MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __STOCK_CRUFT 0'
>
>Hi Aubrey,
>
>In my 1991 book, Speaking with Style: The Sociolinguistic Skills of
>Children, and in subsequent
>papers (some of them cross-linguistic), I report evidence of children
>showing clear sensitivity to
>the correlation between speech style (i.e., register) and power/prestige
>as early as age 4.
>
>Best,
>Elaine
>*********************************
>Elaine S. Andersen
>Professor
>Psychology, Linguistics & Neuroscience
>Hedco Neuroscience Program
>HNB 18
>University of Southern California
>  Los Angeles, CA 90089-2520
>eanderse at usc.edu
>phone: 213 740-9192
>  fax: 213 740-5687
>  *********************************
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Aubrey Nunes 
>Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:05 pm
>Subject: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'? as we say in gb
>         english
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > What I am asking about is perhaps a very British English phenomenon
> > - or
> > perhaps a point of sensitivity sharper in britain than elsewhere.
> >
> > My question is this: how early and how accurately do children learn to
> > detect corelations between a particular sort of speech and the
> > exercise of
> > authority and power?
> >
> > I once read an unpublished BEd thesis from the early 90's showing
> > that the
> > issues at stake here were pretty well understood by children of
> > around 8;0,
> > as I recall. Since the implications are kind of obvious, I am sure
> > that this
> > must have been well studied and reported.
> >
> > I would be most grateful for any pointers to literature on this.
> >
> > Aubrey
> >
> >
> > Aubrey Nunes,
> > Pigeon Post Box Ltd
> > 52 Bonham Road
> > London, SW2 5HG
> >
> > T:  0207 652 1347
> > E:  aubrey at pigeonpostbox.co.uk
> > I:  www.pigeonpostbox.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 02:39:53 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:39:53 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

OED recently added a draft entry for the verb "spaz", with a surprisingly
early first cite (via Newspaperarchive, of course):

-----
spaz, v.
slang (orig. U.S.). Often considered offensive. [< SPAZ n.]
intr. To lose physical or emotional control, usually as the result of an
intense emotional experience; to act in a bizarre or uncharacteristic way.
Freq. with _out_. Also in extended use.

1957 Hammond (Indiana) Times 6 Nov. B2/6 Jewelers, furriers, and furniture
dealers go through similar merchandising tortures whenever Wall Street
spazzes. [...]
-----

So if the verb derives from the noun, where are the earlier nominal
usages? The OED entry for nominal "spaz" has yet to be updated, so this is
currently the first cite:

-----
1965 P. KAEL I lost it at Movies III. 259 The term that American
teen-agers now use as the opposite of 'tough' is 'spaz'. A spaz is a
person who is courteous to teachers, plans for a career..and believes in
official values. A spaz is something like what adults still call a square.
-----

>From the same year, I find:

-----
1965 R. BAKER in _N.Y. Times_ 11 Apr. E14/6 Your teen-age daughter asks
what you think of her "shades," which you are canny enough to know are her
sunglasses, and you say, "Cool," and she says, "Oh, Dad, what a spaz!"
(Translation: "You're strictly from 23-skidoo.")
-----

So by 1965 "spaz" had come to mean someone uncool (note that Russell
Baker's daughter considered him uncool because he used "cool", dated slang
before its '70s revival).  Presumably in the '50s and early '60s, the more
"spastic" sense of "spaz" was floating around but was deemed unfit for
print.  Burchfield includes this note in the OED2 entry for "spastic"
meaning "one who is uncoordinated or incompetent; a fool" (first cite
1981): "Although current for some fifteen years or more, it is generally
condemned as a tasteless expression, and is not common in print."

So what is the earliest occurrence of uncoordinated "spaz" (as opposed to
uncool "spaz")?  As a starting point, there is the undeniably tasteless
garage-rock single "Spazz" by the Elastik Band (Atco #6537, Nov. 1967),
included in the box set _Nuggets: Original Artyfacts from the First
Psychedelic Era 1965-1968_.  The single is described here:

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:wvk9kebtjq7z~T1
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:ni2m968oher3

Lyrics include: "I said, get offa the floor, get offa the floor, boy,
people gonna think, yes they're gonna think, people gonna think you're a
spazz."

This is also the earliest example I know of for the double-z spelling of
"spazz".  Any antedatings?

--Ben Zimmer

From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 24 02:55:11 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:55:11 -0400
Subject: Vowel perception experiment
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The site says that one needs to have headphones (attached to the computer's
sound output, I assume) in order to participate, BTW. I don't know whether
sound from regular speakers is acceptable.

-- Doug Wilson

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 02:57:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd never heard them before. The same was true of
"retard," n.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: spaz(z), n.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OED recently added a draft entry for the verb "spaz", with a surprisingly
early first cite (via Newspaperarchive, of course):

-----
spaz, v.
slang (orig. U.S.). Often considered offensive. [< SPAZ n.]
intr. To lose physical or emotional control, usually as the result of an
intense emotional experience; to act in a bizarre or uncharacteristic way.
Freq. with _out_. Also in extended use.

1957 Hammond (Indiana) Times 6 Nov. B2/6 Jewelers, furriers, and furniture
dealers go through similar merchandising tortures whenever Wall Street
spazzes. [...]
-----

So if the verb derives from the noun, where are the earlier nominal
usages? The OED entry for nominal "spaz" has yet to be updated, so this is
currently the first cite:

-----
1965 P. KAEL I lost it at Movies III. 259 The term that American
teen-agers now use as the opposite of 'tough' is 'spaz'. A spaz is a
person who is courteous to teachers, plans for a career..and believes in
official values. A spaz is something like what adults still call a square.
-----

>From the same year, I find:

-----
1965 R. BAKER in _N.Y. Times_ 11 Apr. E14/6 Your teen-age daughter asks
what you think of her "shades," which you are canny enough to know are her
sunglasses, and you say, "Cool," and she says, "Oh, Dad, what a spaz!"
(Translation: "You're strictly from 23-skidoo.")
-----

So by 1965 "spaz" had come to mean someone uncool (note that Russell
Baker's daughter considered him uncool because he used "cool", dated slang
before its '70s revival). Presumably in the '50s and early '60s, the more
"spastic" sense of "spaz" was floating around but was deemed unfit for
print. Burchfield includes this note in the OED2 entry for "spastic"
meaning "one who is uncoordinated or incompetent; a fool" (first cite
1981): "Although current for some fifteen years or more, it is generally
condemned as a tasteless expression, and is not common in print."

So what is the earliest occurrence of uncoordinated "spaz" (as opposed to
uncool "spaz")? As a starting point, there is the undeniably tasteless
garage-rock single "Spazz" by the Elastik Band (Atco #6537, Nov. 1967),
included in the box set _Nuggets: Original Artyfacts from the First
Psychedelic Era 1965-1968_. The single is described here:

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:wvk9kebtjq7z~T1
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:ni2m968oher3

Lyrics include: "I said, get offa the floor, get offa the floor, boy,
people gonna think, yes they're gonna think, people gonna think you're a
spazz."

This is also the earliest example I know of for the double-z spelling of
"spazz". Any antedatings?

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
 Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 04:34:20 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:34:20 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
>the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd never
>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.

Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
 I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
other.

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 24 04:38:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:38:51 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4dvue3@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: "like" and "as if"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:56:55 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
>  wrote:
>
>> Back in those days, the introductory "like" was customarily followed
>> by
>> a comma, as there was almost always a slight pause between it and what
>> followed.  Of course,  _Mojo Navigator_ may have been less
>> punctilious.
>
> Like, I think the comma is/was most often used when introducing a
> sentence-initial clause, but like if it's mid-sentential then the comma
> would often be dropped.
>
> Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>
> -----
> At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
> come
> in, and like theyre white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
> -----
> The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
> don't
> go down there unless you have a spade

FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the word
"spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
about to sing some Western ditty.

Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not to
refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall, to
coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.

-Wilson Gray

>  friend with you.
> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
> -----
> I always used to sip my mother's beer, so like I started playin' right
> then and just listened to all the different music around the country.
> ("Country Joe and the Fish", 22 Nov. 1966)
> -----
>
> Here's commaless "like" in both initial and medial position:
>
> -----
> Like you go to the Avalon now and you'll see... it used to be like
> just a
> small group of people in front that were listening and then like 90% of
> the audience was running around and dancing...and now like almost the
> whole auditorium is covered with sitting people, and it's, I think,
> considered uncool to freak out.
> ("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
> -----
>
> But elsewhere in the same article initial "like" gets a comma:
>
> -----
> Like, they're really good musicians, and they're tight, but so's Wilson
> Pickett, you know?
> ("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
> -----
>
> I think the magazine staff punctuated however they, like, liked.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 05:15:50 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:15:50 -0500
Subject: making it across the pond?
Message-ID: 

The (London) Times, Friday, Sep 28, 1928; pg. 7; Issue 45010; col A 
     The Coming Election. Mr. Baldwin On His Policy., Safeguarding Pledge Repeated. 

[quoting a speech by PM Baldwin]

"Mr. Tom Johnston, for whom I confess a sneaking regard, described the programme as a sort of dog's breakfast, in which there were scraps for every palate. (Laughter.)"

>This led me to wonder whether "dog's breakfast" has become standard
>U.S. usage. I don't remember coming across it before outside of
>British, or maybe Australian or Canadian, writing, but I'm pretty
>sure Friedman is no Brit, and both he and his editors presumably
>believed that his readers would understand the allusion--or that they
>would google it and find e.g.
>
>The Phrase Finder (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/114550.html  )
>Dog's breakfast
>
>Meaning
>A mess or muddle.
>
>Origin
>Derived from the unpleasant habit of dogs, rising early before the
>local townsfolk, or eating the mess of food dropped or vomited onto
>the pavement the previous night.

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 24 06:23:31 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:23:31 -0400
Subject: "Each one teach one" (1923)
Message-ID: 

http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1058/rucker-basketball-tournament-each-one-teach-one
...
...
EACH ONE TEACH ONE--31,800 Google hits, 2,390 Google Groups hits
...
...
I don't know if Fred is going to include "each one teach one." It clearly seems to come out of the literacy campaigns of the 1920s. It's been used in Harlem and other black neighborhoods.

From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU  Fri Jun 24 06:14:32 2005
From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:14:32 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

In early '60s New Jersey, both, I'm afraid.  I was called that a lot in high
school, and didn't know whether it was because I was a "nerd", because I
have (subclinical) cerebral palsy, or both.  I don't remember the verb too
much from those days.

Paul Johnston
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Zimmer" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: spaz(z), n.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
>  wrote:
>
> >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
> >the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd never
> >heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>
> Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
> who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
>  I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
> other.
>
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU  Fri Jun 24 06:05:45 2005
From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:05:45 -0400
Subject: "Tom Brown" as an 1896 baseball term
Message-ID: 

I'd say more likely the player (Thomas Tarleton Brown), an British-born
outfielder and occasional pitcher, who played with a number of AA and NL
teams from 1882-98.  The Boston attestation would fit; he played with the
Red Stockings (i. e. Braves) in '88 and '89, jumped to the Boston Players
League club in '90 and followed that team--quite a good one--to the AA for
the league' final year in '91.  He was a .265 lifetime hitter; he would have
been in the twilight of his career with the Washington Nats in '96.  Weak
hits back to the pitcher?  I don't know, but he had a lousy year in '95, and
probably hit his share of these.

Paul Johnston
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: "Tom Brown" as an 1896 baseball term

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: "Tom Brown" as an 1896 baseball term
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> At 3:15 PM -0500 6/23/05, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:
> >The request below comes from the assistant to Paul Dickson (author
> >of the standard dictionary on baseball terminology).  In another
> >email Skip McAfee guesses that "Tom Brown" likely arose from an
> >incident (involving a player by that name) which occurred shortly
> >before the attestation in the Boston Globe--a suspicion I agree with.
> >
> >     Still, with his permission I'm running this by ads-l to see if
> >anyone here sees something that we might be missing.
> >
> >Gerald Cohen
>
> Could there be an allusion here to the Tom Brown of _Tom Brown's
> Schooldays_, despite the Victorian England provenance of that book,
> which would certainly have been well known in the U.S. as well as
> Britain at that time?  Just a thought.
>
> Larry
>
> >  > ----------
> >>  From:         Skip McAfee
> >>  Reply To:     xerxes7 at earthlink.net
> >>  Sent:         Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:37 PM
> >>  To:   Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> >>  Cc:   Paul Dickson
> >>  Subject:      FW: "Tom Brown"
> >>
> >>  Gerald:
> >>
> >>  Do you have anything on the term "Tom Brown"?  Peter Morris
> >>believes it may refer to a ball hit feebly back to the pitcher.
> >>
> >>  Skip McAfee
> >>  xerxes7 at earthlink.net
> >>
> >>  ---
> >>
> >>
> >>  > [Original Message]
> >>  > From: Joanne Hulbert 
> >>  > To: 
> >>  > Date: 6/21/2005 11:34:24 PM
> >>  > Subject: "Tom Brown"
> >>  >
> >>  > Paul,
> >>  > I came across this in the Boston Globe of April 18, 1896:
> >>  >
> >>  > "Hamilton hit a "Tom Brown" to the pitcher and turned to the
> >>water tank with disgust depicted on his Clinton brow. . . . "
> >>  >
> >>  > Could a Tom Brown be a fly ball to the pitcher?
> >>  >
> >>  > Joanne Hulbert
> >>  >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 07:11:58 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:11:58 -0400
Subject: For the snowclone files: "What is this 'X'...?"
Message-ID: 

For Arnold and any other snowclone connoisseurs out there... I recently
noticed a snowclone with two basic variants:

"What is this 'X' (that) you speak of?"
"What is this 'X' of which you speak?"

One can find examples all the way back to the early days of Usenet:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/net.misc/msg/da67fe94b296df17
net.misc - Aug 24 1983, 1:06 pm
There has been a lot of net discussion about "toilet paper" recently. Just
what is this "toilet paper" of which you speak?  Where can I find it?
-----

The origin seems to be in the collective memory of big-screen and
small-screen science fiction from the '50s and '60s. It has the sound of a
cliched line spoken by an alien to a human exploring other planets (often
the vocative "earthling" is appended). In such "first contact" scenes,
aliens can of course speak perfect English yet lack certain key concepts
and their associated significations, which the humans can then explain.
(It's also possible to imagine the line spoken in intra-human settings
involving time travel, lost tribes, unfrozen cavemen, etc.)

The fronted version with "...of which you speak" adds an extra component
of alien formality (cf. Yoda's inverted syntax, as discussed on Language
Log). I haven't found any firm evidence that either version was actually
used in classic sci-fi on film or TV.

Closely related to this snowclone is the line, "'Kiss'? What is 'kiss'?"--
emblematic of campy interplanetary romance, which of course is invariably
between a male human and a female alien. (It was a favorite catchphrase of
the crew on _Mystery Science Theater 3000_.) The line is often attributed
to Altaira (Anne Francis) in _The Forbidden Planet_ (1956) or to one of
Kirk's conquests in the original series of _Star Trek_.  This was
investigated on the rec.arts.sf.tv newsgroup, and they've ruled out _The
Forbidden Planet_ and _Star Trek_:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv/browse_frm/thread/ac73f4fe4affc423

It's probably just a spurious quotation, along the lines of "Play it
again, Sam" or "Judy, Judy, Judy" (or for that matter "Beam me up,
Scotty"). _Star Trek_ did, however, have many "What is 'X'?" scenes, most
notoriously in the episode "Spock's Brain", which had the immortal line,
"'Brain' and 'brain'! What is 'brain'?" And here is a partial transcript
of another episode featuring cross-planetary misunderstanding, "The
Apple":

-----
http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/39theappletrans.htm
These are the people of Vaal.
Where are the others?
There are no others.
The, uh, children.
Children?
Ha ha. You use unknown words to me.
Little ones like yourselves.
They grow.
Ahh! Replacements.
None are necessary.
They are forbidden by Vaal.
But when a man and woman fall in love ...
"Love." Ha ha ha ha.
Strange words -- children, love.
What is love?
Love is ...
when two people are ...
Ahh ...
Yes. The holding. The touching.
Vaal has forbidden this.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 24 11:06:06 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:06:06 -0400
Subject: Vowel perception experiment
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050623225116.03043410@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

Good speakers are fine; I thought it said that; we'll change it.

>The site says that one needs to have headphones (attached to the computer's
>sound output, I assume) in order to participate, BTW. I don't know whether
>sound from regular speakers is acceptable.
>
>-- Doug Wilson

Bartek,

Didn't we change the instructions to say that good quality (or just
"speakers") would be OK?

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 24 11:23:45 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:23:45 -0400
Subject: Vowel perception experiment
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 07:06:06AM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> Good speakers are fine; I thought it said that; we'll change it.
>
> >The site says that one needs to have headphones (attached to the computer's
> >sound output, I assume) in order to participate, BTW. I don't know whether
> >sound from regular speakers is acceptable.
> >
> >-- Doug Wilson
>
>
> Bartek,
>
> Didn't we change the instructions to say that good quality (or just
> "speakers") would be OK?

Yes, you did.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 11:35:07 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:35:07 -0700
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

A "spazz" was, as you say, primarily clumsy and uncoordinated, but could be inordinately stupid as well. The word had nothing to do with being cool or uncool, since a "spazz" was such an oaf that coolness was not even a consideration.  "Spastic," n. & adj., was also in occasional use.

My impression is that "uncool" is too precise a refinement. Dad in the Baker cite is a spazz, not because he uses an "archaic" word (which by the way has never  been archaic or needed a "revival" over the pas 60 years), but because he's a parent using a "teen" word.  And I think Paulene Kael's information represents the outer limit of the word's reach, rather than a core definition.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
wrote:

>"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
>the fall of 1959. At least among us kids. I remember because I'd never
>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.

Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
other.

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
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From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 24 11:27:07 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:27:07 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
In-Reply-To: <40395.69.142.143.59.1119587660.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu>
Message-ID: 

> >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
> >the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd never
> >heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>
>Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
>who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
>  I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
>other.

As I recall from the early 1960's, "spastic" was used for "uncoordinated
person" ... obviously based on "spastic" = "person afflicted with a spastic
[neurologic] disorder". "Spaz[z]" was used as an alternative to "spastic"
[n.] and I think it was understood to be some sort of an abbreviation for
"spastic". At that time I don't recall "spastic" or "spaz[z]" applied to
those who were nerdy or unfashionably dressed but rather to those who were
awkward, poorly coordinated physically, poor at sports ... or, indeed, to
those who had neurological disorders. "Spaz[z]" in the more general
"uncool" sense I remember only from much later (maybe 1980's) (although
apparently it was around by 1965, unsurprisingly).

-- Doug Wilson

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 11:47:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:47:48 -0700
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

In my bemused observation of New York's hippie subculture in the early '70s, I noticed "spade" being used by white guys as a very positive term.  Far-out radical wannabes (a word not known then) said it.  It was the only slang synonym for "black person" that could be so used, and my impression was that it must have been picked up from usage by Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown, though that was only a guess.

I never met a black hippie.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:56:55 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> Back in those days, the introductory "like" was customarily followed
>> by
>> a comma, as there was almost always a slight pause between it and what
>> followed. Of course, _Mojo Navigator_ may have been less
>> punctilious.
>
> Like, I think the comma is/was most often used when introducing a
> sentence-initial clause, but like if it's mid-sentential then the comma
> would often be dropped.
>
> Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>
> -----
> At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
> come
> in, and like theyre white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
> -----
> The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
> don't
> go down there unless you have a spade

FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the word
"spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
about to sing some Western ditty.

Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not to
refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall, to
coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.

-Wilson Gray

> friend with you.
> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
> -----
> I always used to sip my mother's beer, so like I started playin' right
> then and just listened to all the different music around the country.
> ("Country Joe and the Fish", 22 Nov. 1966)
> -----
>
> Here's commaless "like" in both initial and medial position:
>
> -----
> Like you go to the Avalon now and you'll see... it used to be like
> just a
> small group of people in front that were listening and then like 90% of
> the audience was running around and dancing...and now like almost the
> whole auditorium is covered with sitting people, and it's, I think,
> considered uncool to freak out.
> ("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
> -----
>
> But elsewhere in the same article initial "like" gets a comma:
>
> -----
> Like, they're really good musicians, and they're tight, but so's Wilson
> Pickett, you know?
> ("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
> -----
>
> I think the magazine staff punctuated however they, like, liked.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 12:03:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:03:34 -0700
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
Message-ID: 

Can anyone establish an early date for "little green men"? OED no have. I suspect it comes from the pulp sf days of the interwar period, because I've never heard of a UFO case that seriously reported "little green men" hopping from a landed saucer.

Another query: Was there originally a cartoon or something with the stereotypical alien demand, "Take me to your leader ?"

I've known both these phrases since the late '50s.

JL

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From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 24 12:08:28 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:08:28 -0400
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
In-Reply-To: <20050624120334.93063.qmail@web53911.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 05:03:34AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> Can anyone establish an early date for "little green men"?
> OED no have. I suspect it comes from the pulp sf days of the
> interwar period, because I've never heard of a UFO case that
> seriously reported "little green men" hopping from a landed
> saucer.

The OED science-fiction project has a relatively full entry on
this, with a first citation (in this sense) from 1940 (not
currently shown on the site). By the 1946 quote it was already
being regarded as a cliche: "I thought it was just a phrase, a
gag, one of those things you say."

http://www.jessesword.com/sf/view/304

No entry on "take me to your leader" though.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 12:16:53 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:16:53 -0700
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

Yes, "awkward" also figured significantly into it.  If you dropped your fifteen cents (sic) while trying to put it in the vending machine slot you were a "spazz."  Also if you tripped. Also if you tried too hard to get the teacher to call on you in class. (Unbelievable these days, but we actually tried.)  A "spazz" was a combination oaf and idiot. I cannot recall it ever referring to a person having an actual "spastic" disorder, but the etymology was well known.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
> >the fall of 1959. At least among us kids. I remember because I'd never
> >heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>
>Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
>who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
> I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
>other.

As I recall from the early 1960's, "spastic" was used for "uncoordinated
person" ... obviously based on "spastic" = "person afflicted with a spastic
[neurologic] disorder". "Spaz[z]" was used as an alternative to "spastic"
[n.] and I think it was understood to be some sort of an abbreviation for
"spastic". At that time I don't recall "spastic" or "spaz[z]" applied to
those who were nerdy or unfashionably dressed but rather to those who were
awkward, poorly coordinated physically, poor at sports ... or, indeed, to
those who had neurological disorders. "Spaz[z]" in the more general
"uncool" sense I remember only from much later (maybe 1980's) (although
apparently it was around by 1965, unsurprisingly).

-- Doug Wilson

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 12:19:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:19:25 -0700
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Jesse.  So the phrase antedates interest in "flying saucers" by a number of years.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: Re: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 05:03:34AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> Can anyone establish an early date for "little green men"?
> OED no have. I suspect it comes from the pulp sf days of the
> interwar period, because I've never heard of a UFO case that
> seriously reported "little green men" hopping from a landed
> saucer.

The OED science-fiction project has a relatively full entry on
this, with a first citation (in this sense) from 1940 (not
currently shown on the site). By the 1946 quote it was already
being regarded as a cliche: "I thought it was just a phrase, a
gag, one of those things you say."

http://www.jessesword.com/sf/view/304

No entry on "take me to your leader" though.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

__________________________________________________
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From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 24 12:31:39 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:31:39 -0400
Subject: Camels (was countdown was: "As If")
In-Reply-To: <20050624040028.E32AAB24B9@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

wilson ponders:
>>>
Has there ever been a more pleasant fragrance than that of a
newly-opened, fresh pack of Camels?
<<<
How about the fragrance of camel droppings? It's all subjective, m'man.

-mark, whose subjectivity is informed by the autobiographical truth behind
my song "secondhand smoke", whose first verse is:

Well, my dad was a two-pack-a-day man
And the poison went straight to his heart.
He never made it to fifty
And I swore that I never would start.

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 24 12:44:14 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:44:14 -0400
Subject: "Birth of a Nation" and "History written with lightning"
In-Reply-To: <20050624040028.E32AAB24B9@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Bonnie Taylor-Blake writes:
>>>>
Oops.  About "teaching history by light[n]ing" and *The Birth of a Nation*,
it's a good thing that film historian Arthur Lennig's already tracked it.

All the way back to the end of February, 1915, a mere ten days after the
film had been screened at the White House.

        [...]

Wilson was impressed with the work, which echoed his own views as offered in
his *History of the American People* (1902) . . . and he reputedly said that
it was like 'writing history with lightning ... My only regret is that it is
all too true.'
<<<<

This may already have been noted here, but how likely is it that "lightning"
referred to the new medium of movies (flashes of light), rather than to
either the force and dynamicism of that particular movie, as I'd been
assuming in following this discussion?

-MAM

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 12:51:51 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:51:51 -0400
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
In-Reply-To: <20050624120334.93063.qmail@web53911.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Can anyone establish an early date for "little green men"? OED no have.
> I suspect it comes from the pulp sf days of the interwar period, because
> I've never heard of a UFO case that seriously reported "little green
> men" hopping from a landed saucer.

There has been a lot of research into this, and I believe the OED science
fiction site has citations back to 1949, as well as a literal usage by
Rudyard Kipling in 1906.

> Another query: Was there originally a cartoon or something with the
> stereotypical alien demand, "Take me to your leader ?"

Yes, the forthcoming Yale Dictionary of Quotations traces this to a 1953
cartoon.  There is also at least one non-science fiction usage before
this.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 12:54:36 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:54:36 -0400
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> There has been a lot of research into this, and I believe the OED science
> fiction site has citations back to 1949, as well as a literal usage by
> Rudyard Kipling in 1906.

I meant to say 1946.  I'm pleased that the OED has even earlier evidence
now (1940).

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 13:20:33 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:20:33 -0400
Subject: "Football is a collision sport" (1963)
In-Reply-To: <8C73F88FFBEFE46-130-1858B@MBLK-M03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> I had posted 1965, but the same guy (and NOT Vince Lombardi).

One of my coworkers was a neighbor and goddaughter of Lombardi when he was
a high school coach in New Jersey; I'll ask her about whether VL ever said
this to her.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 24 13:23:48 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:23:48 -0400
Subject: making it across the pond?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

From:    Laurence Horn 

> Reprinted below is the conclusion of yesterday's NYT Op-Ed by Thomas
> Friedman, in which the columnist is imagining the difference it would
> make to GWB's policies if his vice president, instead of being Dick
> Cheney, were someone who intended to run for president him- or
> herself--and, to my ear, were also someone who'd spent a lot of time
> in Britain:

> This led me to wonder whether "dog's breakfast" has become standard
> U.S. usage...

I don't recall ever running across it before i read Friedman's column
(which runs in the Orlando Sentinel) the other day, but i just thought
that given the context it was a fairly clear image for what he was
getting at. Didn't know it was British, and it didn't sound (look?) like
a Britishism to me at the time.

--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 13:31:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:31:01 -0700
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Fred.

JL

Fred Shapiro  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: Re: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Can anyone establish an early date for "little green men"? OED no have.
> I suspect it comes from the pulp sf days of the interwar period, because
> I've never heard of a UFO case that seriously reported "little green
> men" hopping from a landed saucer.

There has been a lot of research into this, and I believe the OED science
fiction site has citations back to 1949, as well as a literal usage by
Rudyard Kipling in 1906.

> Another query: Was there originally a cartoon or something with the
> stereotypical alien demand, "Take me to your leader ?"

Yes, the forthcoming Yale Dictionary of Quotations traces this to a 1953
cartoon. There is also at least one non-science fiction usage before
this.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
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From lalheghaderifard at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 24 13:32:31 2005
From: lalheghaderifard at HOTMAIL.COM (Lalhe Ghaderifard)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:32:31 -0500
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Jun 24 13:46:03 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:46:03 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Fulbright Grant Opportunities in TEFL and Applied
 Linguistics in Latin America and Africa
Message-ID: 

> From: "Green, Jenai" 
> Date: June 24, 2005 09:20:02 EDT
> Subject: Fulbright Grant Opportunities in TEFL and Applied
> Linguistics in Latin America and Africa
>
> To Whom It May Concern:
> I am writing to bring to your attention Fulbright grant
> opportunities, which may be of interest to members of the American
> Dialect Society. If you could pass along this information to the
> members of your association it would be greatly appreciated. Thank
> you very much for your assistance and please let me know if
> additional information is required.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jenai Green
> Senior Program Coordinator, Africa/Western Hemisphere
> Council for International Exchange of Scholars
> *******************************************************************
> The Fulbright Scholar Program for Faculty and Professionals offers
> valuable professional development opportunities to scholars working
> in TEFL and Applied Linguistics under the 2006-07 academic year
> competition currently underway. While award are available in all
> world regions, Latin America offers especially plentiful award
> opportunities for TEFL scholars to design new BA and MA programs,
> upgrade teacher preparation and professionalize the discipline via
> special awards in Mexico, Chile, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua
> and Panama. In Africa, awards in TEFL in Mauritius and linguistics
> in Swaziland are available to TEFL scholars in addition to any All
> Disciplines award in the region. Applicants should have U.S.
> citizenship and possess an advanced degree as well as teacher
> training experience. The application deadline is August 1, 2005.
> Visit www.cies.org for award descriptions and application
> guidelines and Carol Robles at crobles at cies.iie.org for information
> about Latin America awards or Debra Egan, degan at cies.iie.org for
> information on Africa.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 15:30:59 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:30:59 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050624003532.030574b0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

At 7:27 AM -0400 6/24/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>  >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
>>>the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd never
>>>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>>
>>Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
>>who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
>>  I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
>>other.
>
>As I recall from the early 1960's, "spastic" was used for "uncoordinated
>person" ... obviously based on "spastic" = "person afflicted with a spastic
>[neurologic] disorder". "Spaz[z]" was used as an alternative to "spastic"
>[n.] and I think it was understood to be some sort of an abbreviation for
>"spastic". At that time I don't recall "spastic" or "spaz[z]" applied to
>those who were nerdy or unfashionably dressed but rather to those who were
>awkward, poorly coordinated physically, poor at sports ... or, indeed, to
>those who had neurological disorders. "Spaz[z]" in the more general
>"uncool" sense I remember only from much later (maybe 1980's) (although
>apparently it was around by 1965, unsurprisingly).
>
>-- Doug Wilson

And everything Doug says here holds of 1950's use in the New York
area.  Unlike "spastic", it was primarily used (in my experience)
semi-jocularly or metaphorically--the "awkward, poorly coordinated
physically, poor at sports" sense Doug mentions, more than the
literal neurological sense.  In this way, it's a bit like "RE-tard",
which wasn't used (in my presence) for those actually suffering from
mental retardation.  But it was also more jocular and less cruel than
REtard, and one would have been more likely to describe oneself as "a
real spaz" than as "a real REtard".

Larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 15:42:23 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:42:23 -0400
Subject: making it across the pond?
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3ED1@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

At 12:15 AM -0500 6/24/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>The (London) Times, Friday, Sep 28, 1928; pg. 7; Issue 45010; col A
>      The Coming Election. Mr. Baldwin On His Policy., Safeguarding
>Pledge Repeated.
>
>[quoting a speech by PM Baldwin]
>
>"Mr. Tom Johnston, for whom I confess a sneaking regard, described
>the programme as a sort of dog's breakfast, in which there were
>scraps for every palate. (Laughter.)"

Predating the OED's first cite from a 1937 Partridge dictionary
entry, thereby presupposing earlier establishment.  (Partridge claims
a low Glaswegian origin for the phrase.)  Of course Baldwin's is
precisely the kind of transpondine usage I was referring to, and I
could imagine Blair making a similar comment today.   Would an
American politician make a similar comment?  And if so would it be
met with laughter or bewilderment?

Larry

>  >This led me to wonder whether "dog's breakfast" has become standard
>>U.S. usage. I don't remember coming across it before outside of
>>British, or maybe Australian or Canadian, writing, but I'm pretty
>>sure Friedman is no Brit, and both he and his editors presumably
>>believed that his readers would understand the allusion--or that they
>>would google it and find e.g.
>>
>>The Phrase Finder (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/114550.html
>> )
>>Dog's breakfast
>>
>>Meaning
>>A mess or muddle.
>>
>>Origin
>>Derived from the unpleasant habit of dogs, rising early before the
>>local townsfolk, or eating the mess of food dropped or vomited onto
>>the pavement the previous night.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 15:42:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:42:57 -0700
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

I agree with Larry. Anybody could be despised as a "spazz" now and then, but, in general, a "RE-tard" was contemptible most all the time.  I don't think I heard the word applied to a truly or apparently retarded person either. My wife recalls "RE-tard" from the *early* '50s, BTW, but she grew up in a different part of the city and was unfamiliar with "spazz" till the '80s.

Interesting that both these sophomoric terms are still in wide use in the (pre-)pubescent community nearly half a century later.

BTW, though HDAS has a very early cite for "bitchin'" ("splendid") from James T. Farrell, I never heard it in the '50s. Did anybody?  It's still around after 70 years.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 7:27 AM -0400 6/24/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>> >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
>>>the fall of 1959. At least among us kids. I remember because I'd never
>>>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>>
>>Was nominal "spazz" used in the 'uncoordinated' sense (i.e., for someone
>>who frequently "spazzed out"), or in the 'uncool' sense of the 1965 cites?
>> I realize there may have been a subtle gradation from one sense to the
>>other.
>
>As I recall from the early 1960's, "spastic" was used for "uncoordinated
>person" ... obviously based on "spastic" = "person afflicted with a spastic
>[neurologic] disorder". "Spaz[z]" was used as an alternative to "spastic"
>[n.] and I think it was understood to be some sort of an abbreviation for
>"spastic". At that time I don't recall "spastic" or "spaz[z]" applied to
>those who were nerdy or unfashionably dressed but rather to those who were
>awkward, poorly coordinated physically, poor at sports ... or, indeed, to
>those who had neurological disorders. "Spaz[z]" in the more general
>"uncool" sense I remember only from much later (maybe 1980's) (although
>apparently it was around by 1965, unsurprisingly).
>
>-- Doug Wilson

And everything Doug says here holds of 1950's use in the New York
area. Unlike "spastic", it was primarily used (in my experience)
semi-jocularly or metaphorically--the "awkward, poorly coordinated
physically, poor at sports" sense Doug mentions, more than the
literal neurological sense. In this way, it's a bit like "RE-tard",
which wasn't used (in my presence) for those actually suffering from
mental retardation. But it was also more jocular and less cruel than
REtard, and one would have been more likely to describe oneself as "a
real spaz" than as "a real REtard".

Larry

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 24 15:53:34 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:53:34 -0400
Subject: bitchin (was: Re: spaz(z))
In-Reply-To: <20050624154257.30425.qmail@web53913.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 08:42:57AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>  BTW, though HDAS has a very early cite for "bitchin'"
> ("splendid") from James T. Farrell, I never heard it in the
> '50s. Did anybody?  It's still around after 70 years.

It does? I must have the discount version.

The earliest in my HDAS is 1957 in _Gidget_, with a number of
other early-1960s cites. At the DSNA meeting in Boston, the
term came up in a discussion, and a woman attested it in
exactly the Gidget use: mid-late 1950s, California, no hint
whatsoever of offensiveness or vulgarity (as would have been
expected to be the case with any _bitch_-derived word), and
always, always an -en or -in ending (i.e. not "-ing").

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 16:08:01 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:08:01 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <3923da3845425c6bdb7e13df3b7d9d39@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:38 AM -0400 6/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>>
>>-----
>>At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
>>come
>>in, and like theyre white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
>>("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>>-----
>>The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
>>don't
>>go down there unless you have a spade
>
>FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the word
>"spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
>cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
>about to sing some Western ditty.
>
>Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not to
>refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
>spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
>school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
>Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
>as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
>been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
>her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall, to
>coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.
>
>-Wilson Gray

Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:

      SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
      I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
      call ____.  Love Kitty.

There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
hipster meaning in mind--

A spade cat from Port Washington joined the Quarry and tried to tell
us what was on his mind. He was a fairly good singer...

If Barton had been a spade cat they would have thrown his ass into
jail before you could say Bull Conners.

--many clearly involve the eggcornish reading:

Like the difference between the behavior of a spade cat and an unspade cat.

I still cant quite beleive that a portrayal of a recently spade cat
could be such great comedy material

My female spade cat has a problem peeing on my bath rugs.

(Actually, after coping recently with a (male) cat who had *no*
problem peeing on my bath rugs, I wouldn't complain about a cat
having a problem doing so.)

Larry

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 16:17:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:17:48 -0700
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

"Spade" is the spelling I see most frequently on those "Free Cat" notices on the vet's bulletin board.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 12:38 AM -0400 6/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>>
>>-----
>>At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
>>come
>>in, and like they=92re white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
>>("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>>-----
>>The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
>>don't
>>go down there unless you have a spade
>
>FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the word
>"spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
>cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
>about to sing some Western ditty.
>
>Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not to
>refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
>spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
>school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
>Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
>as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
>been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
>her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall, to
>coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.
>
>-Wilson Gray

Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:

SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet. Please
call ____. Love Kitty.

There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
hipster meaning in mind--

A spade cat from Port Washington joined the Quarry and tried to tell
us what was on his mind. He was a fairly good singer...

If Barton had been a spade cat they would have thrown his ass into
jail before you could say Bull Conners.

--many clearly involve the eggcornish reading:

Like the difference between the behavior of a spade cat and an unspade cat.

I still cant quite beleive that a portrayal of a recently spade cat
could be such great comedy material

My female spade cat has a problem peeing on my bath rugs.

(Actually, after coping recently with a (male) cat who had *no*
problem peeing on my bath rugs, I wouldn't complain about a cat
having a problem doing so.)

Larry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 16:23:24 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:23:24 -0400
Subject: bitchin (was: Re: spaz(z))
In-Reply-To: <20050624155334.GA1238@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:53 AM -0400 6/24/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 08:42:57AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>   BTW, though HDAS has a very early cite for "bitchin'"
>>  ("splendid") from James T. Farrell, I never heard it in the
>>  '50s. Did anybody?  It's still around after 70 years.
>
>It does? I must have the discount version.
>
>The earliest in my HDAS is 1957 in _Gidget_, with a number of
>other early-1960s cites. At the DSNA meeting in Boston, the
>term came up in a discussion, and a woman attested it in
>exactly the Gidget use: mid-late 1950s, California, no hint
>whatsoever of offensiveness or vulgarity (as would have been
>expected to be the case with any _bitch_-derived word), and
>always, always an -en or -in ending (i.e. not "-ing").
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED

My guess is that it took a while for it to make it out (or back)
east.  I certainly don't remember it in the NYC of the 1950's or
upstate NY of the early 1960's.

Larry

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 16:30:07 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:30:07 -0500
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
Message-ID: 

>
> Thanks, Jesse.  So the phrase antedates interest in "flying
> saucers" by a number of years.
>

Interest in flying saucers goes back well before the phrase's (probable)
origins, in 1947:

http://www.frankwu.com/Paul-8.html

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 24 17:04:54 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:04:54 -0700
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 23, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Larry Horn wrote:

> At 4:16 PM -0400 6/23/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>> "Arnold M. Zwicky"  wrote:
>>
>>> from Garry Tudeau's Doonesbury strip of 6/21/05:
>>>
>>> -----
>>> A: So basically you're quitting your job to go to a party.
>>> B: Oh, like you've never done that?
>>> -----
>>>
>>> here, "like" + clause is punctuated as a question (presumably with a
>>> rising final intonation), but a somewhat more assured response would
>>> use an assertion...
>>
>> Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
>>
>>> I can't prove it, but I'm sure I was using this construction by
>>> 1970 and
>>> probably some years before that, though as an ironic or sarcastic
>>> statement rather than a question. The interrogatory force may come
>>> simply from the widely disdained "uptalk" phenomenon, which I at
>>> least
>>> took no note of till the mid '70s.
>>
>> When it's an ironic/sarcastic assertion, there is often heavy
>> stress on
>> the NP following "like" (especially if it's a monosyllabic pronoun):
>>
>> "Like *that* matters!"
>> "Like *you* care!"
>> "Like *he* would know!"
>>
>> The sarcasm can be emphasized by a preceding interjection ("yeah",
>> "oh",
>> "ah", "hah", etc.).
>
> cf. also "a lot" in the same frames, e.g. "A lot *that* matters!"
>
> Larry
>
>> This construction is hard to search for in the databases, but
>> here's an
>> example of ironic assertional "like" from 1966...

just to bring out something we're all assuming here: what makes this
construction "ironic assertional" is that it conveys the negation of
the expressed proposition.  "like that matters" conveys 'that doesn't
matter', and "like you've never done that" conveys 'you've done that'.

(i'm weaseling by using "conveys", so as not to have to decide
whether it's implication or some kind of implicature that's at issue.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 24 18:02:45 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:02:45 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <20050624161749.74349.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>"Spade" is the spelling I see most frequently on those "Free Cat" notices
>on the vet's bulletin board.
>
>JL
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've frequently heard "spaded" cat or dog, esp. up here in northern NY.
Probably appears on notices, too, but I haven't been reading them.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 24 17:30:41 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:30:41 -0400
Subject: Fwd: RE: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'?
Message-ID: 

This sounds more like style shifting than code (dialect) switching, but
nonetheless the age is going down.

>X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
>From: "Caroline Bowen" 
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'? as we say in
>  gbenglish
>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:42:15 +1000
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
>Sender: 
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>0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0'
>
>Dear Aubrey
>
>Very young children, much younger than 8;0, code switch. I have just been
>listening to two three year olds, twins 3;4, "being" the trains (Thomas the
>Tank Engine and friends) talking dead common, and the Fat Controller talking
>dead posh. The interesting thing is that the three year old with the
>language disorder (my client) could change voices, apparently as easily as
>the one with typical language development.
>
>I don't know how relevant this is to what you are seeking, Aubrey, but two
>year olds "talk down" to children they perceive as younger. I have seen two
>and three year olds talk down to older children with Down Syndrome in the DS
>clinic at Macquarie and at DS Association social functions. Young children
>also talk in a bossy, authoritative way to dollies, teddies and pets, don't
>they?
>
>I would look in the autism/pragmatics literature, particularly the work that
>has been done on teaching individuals with pragmatics issues to adopt an
>appropriate "tone" and demeanour to talk to peers vs. those in authority,
>etc. There is a lot of work done with children and young people with HFA,
>autism, semantic pragmatic disorder in "social skills training groups" along
>these lines.
>
>I don't have any references at my fingertips, but have you talked to Gina
>Conti-Ramsden? Nicola Botting?
>
>Caroline
>
>Caroline Bowen PhD
>cbowen at ihug.com.au
>Speech Language Pathologist
>9 Hillcrest Road
>Wentworth Falls NSW 2782
>Australia
>
>Do you know about the
>Speech Pathology Australia National Tour?
>INFORMATION HERE:
>http://members.tripod.com/Caroline_Bowen/2005nt.htm
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>
>My question is this: how early and how accurately do children learn to
>detect corelations between a particular sort of speech and the exercise of
>authority and power?
>
>Aubrey Nunes,
>Pigeon Post Box Ltd
>52 Bonham Road
>London, SW2 5HG
>I:  www.pigeonpostbox.co.uk

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 24 17:46:48 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:46:48 -0400
Subject: frog strangler
Message-ID: 

>From another list that I'm on:
    >>>>>
PS We just went through a frog strangler of a storm, according the US
Weather service, it dumped nearly 3 inches of rain in the past two
hours! And it's still raining! Yikes, my dirt road will be a disaster!
  <<<<<

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 18:05:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:05:14 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:35:07 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>A "spazz" was, as you say, primarily clumsy and uncoordinated, but could
>be inordinately stupid as well. The word had nothing to do with being
>cool or uncool, since a "spazz" was such an oaf that coolness was not
>even a consideration.  "Spastic," n. & adj., was also in occasional use.
>
>My impression is that "uncool" is too precise a refinement. Dad in the
>Baker cite is a spazz, not because he uses an "archaic" word (which by
>the way has never  been archaic or needed a "revival" over the pas 60
>years), but because he's a parent using a "teen" word.

OK, but that's still not a context where I would think the 'uncoordinated'
(or even 'stupid') sense of "spaz(z)" would apply.  Isn't it a textbook
example of uncoolness?  A parent using a teen word is unhip/uncool,
precisely because of the earnest yet off-the-mark attempt to be hip/cool.

>And I think Paulene Kael's information represents the outer limit of
>the word's reach, rather than a core definition.

This matches my experience of the '80s revival of "spaz(z)" (perhaps
repopularized by the 1979 movie _Meatballs_, which featured a character
named Spaz).  But when the term has come up on the alt.usage.english
newsgroup, there have been some who have attested to the 'uncool' sense,
e.g.:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/7522a9ae151243f8
Date: 1999/01/19
Subject: Re: What does 'spaz' mean?

It is also a noun to label said person, or a person who is not "cool"
Synonyms: Spaz, Dork, Nerd, Geek
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 18:13:01 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:13:01 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:02:45 -0400, sagehen  wrote:

>>"Spade" is the spelling I see most frequently on those "Free Cat" notices
>>on the vet's bulletin board.
>>
>I've frequently heard "spaded" cat or dog, esp. up here in northern NY.
>Probably appears on notices, too, but I haven't been reading them.

Has anyone seen the following bumper sticker?  (Imagine card suit symbols.)

   I [heart] my cat.
   I [spade] my dog.
   I [club]  my wife.

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 18:49:38 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:49:38 -0500
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

>
> This matches my experience of the '80s revival of "spaz(z)"
> (perhaps repopularized by the 1979 movie _Meatballs_, which
> featured a character named Spaz).

_Meatballs_ is the earliest movie in the Internet Movie Database in
which searching for "spaz" or "spazz" yields any results (in a character
name, title, or quote).

James Cann called Andy Dick's character in "Newsradio" a spaz, and it
was entirely appropriate.

Eddie Deezen http://www.eddiedeezen.com/ has made a career out of
playing spazzes in the movies (characters he has played include:
Know-It-All, The Guy Boarded Up in the Wall, Rancor Guard Who Gets Spit
On, Eddie Lipschultz, Donnie Dodo, Sphincter, Malvin Computer Nerd,
Eugene Felnic.  Clearly, he's a spaz.

Jerry Lewis in _The Nutty Professor_ is the spaz archetype, to my way of
thinking.

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 24 18:49:43 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:49:43 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <20880.69.142.143.59.1119636781.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu>
Message-ID: 

How about diamonds???

At 02:13 PM 6/24/2005, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:02:45 -0400, sagehen  wrote:
>
> >>"Spade" is the spelling I see most frequently on those "Free Cat" notices
> >>on the vet's bulletin board.
> >>
> >I've frequently heard "spaded" cat or dog, esp. up here in northern NY.
> >Probably appears on notices, too, but I haven't been reading them.
>
>Has anyone seen the following bumper sticker?  (Imagine card suit symbols.)
>
>    I [heart] my cat.
>    I [spade] my dog.
>    I [club]  my wife.
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer

From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 18:59:05 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:59:05 -0500
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <200506241813.j5OIDJ96002050@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Benjamin Zimmer asked:
> Has anyone seen the following bumper sticker?  (Imagine card suit symbols.)
>
>    I [heart] my cat.
>    I [spade] my dog.
>    I [club]  my wife.

In the TPB edition of Robert Asprin's _Little Myth Marker_, there is a
Phil Foglio illustration of a seedy gambler's den. On the wall is a
(partially obscured) poster; the legible part reads

I [club] seals
I [spade] cats
I [heart] NY

I also recall a Far Side cartoon, featuring Godzilla driving a small car,
with the bumper sticker  I8NY.

Jim Parish

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 19:02:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:02:13 -0400
Subject: Cheney on "throes"
Message-ID: 

The latest on the lexico-political front...

-----
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/23/cheney.interview/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney on Thursday defended his
recent comment that the Iraqi insurgency was in its "last throes,"
insisting that progress being made in setting up a new Iraqi government
and establishing democracy there will indeed end the violence --
eventually.

However, in an exclusive interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Cheney said he
thinks there still will be "a lot of bloodshed" in the coming months, as
the insurgents try to stop the move toward democracy in Iraq.

"If you look at what the dictionary says about throes, it can still be a
violent period, the throes of a revolution," he said. "The point would be
that the conflict will be intense, but it's intense because the terrorists
understand that if we're successful at accomplishing our objective --
standing up a democracy in Iraq -- that that's a huge defeat for them."
-----

Cheney's reliance on the dictionary definition of "throes" (conveniently
ignoring the implications of the word "last" in the collocation "last
throes") is reminiscent of Rumsfeld breaking out the OED for "slog":
.

Also, speaking of dictionaries, I can't find this transitive use of "stand
up" ("standing up a democracy in Iraq") in the OED or elsewhere. (MWCD11
only gives one definition for transitive "stand up": "to fail to keep an
appointment with".) But apparently this is common usage in the Bush
administration, usually with "a (new) government" as the object of the
verb.

See: 

--Ben Zimmer

From rwilcox at SSQI.COM  Fri Jun 24 19:11:13 2005
From: rwilcox at SSQI.COM (Wilcox, Rose)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:11:13 -0700
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

I used the word last night at 1 a.m. in a conversation with my daughter.
We were on the phone together (live in different states) and were both
on Myspace.com at the same time.  I said, "You know we're both spazzes,
don't you?" -- meaning we were  out-of-control, crazy, irrational, and
hyper.

I checked the Urban Dictionary site after reading your posts to confirm
(or not) my command of modern slang.  A few individuals had similar
usage ("momentary lapse of reason", "when you lose your brain and start
acting hyper and crazy!") but it was definitely a minority opinion.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spaz&r=f

______________________
Rose A. Wilcox
Senior Technical Writer
480-586-2645
480-580-0530 (cell)
Rwilcox at ssqi.com

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 19:31:15 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:31:15 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:04 AM -0700 6/24/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Jun 23, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>At 4:16 PM -0400 6/23/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>>"Arnold M. Zwicky"  wrote:
>>>
>>>>from Garry Tudeau's Doonesbury strip of 6/21/05:
>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>A: So basically you're quitting your job to go to a party.
>>>>B: Oh, like you've never done that?
>>>>-----
>>>>
>>>>here, "like" + clause is punctuated as a question (presumably with a
>>>>rising final intonation), but a somewhat more assured response would
>>>>use an assertion...
>>>
>>>Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
>>>
>>>>I can't prove it, but I'm sure I was using this construction by
>>>>1970 and
>>>>probably some years before that, though as an ironic or sarcastic
>>>>statement rather than a question. The interrogatory force may come
>>>>simply from the widely disdained "uptalk" phenomenon, which I at
>>>>least
>>>>took no note of till the mid '70s.
>>>
>>>When it's an ironic/sarcastic assertion, there is often heavy
>>>stress on
>>>the NP following "like" (especially if it's a monosyllabic pronoun):
>>>
>>>"Like *that* matters!"
>>>"Like *you* care!"
>>>"Like *he* would know!"
>>>
>>>The sarcasm can be emphasized by a preceding interjection ("yeah",
>>>"oh",
>>>"ah", "hah", etc.).
>>
>>cf. also "a lot" in the same frames, e.g. "A lot *that* matters!"
>>
>>Larry
>>
>>>This construction is hard to search for in the databases, but
>>>here's an
>>>example of ironic assertional "like" from 1966...
>
>just to bring out something we're all assuming here: what makes this
>construction "ironic assertional" is that it conveys the negation of
>the expressed proposition.  "like that matters" conveys 'that doesn't
>matter', and "like you've never done that" conveys 'you've done that'.
>
>(i'm weaseling by using "conveys", so as not to have to decide
>whether it's implication or some kind of implicature that's at issue.)
>
Well, it's a strong enough negation to license negative polarity
items, as I noted in a couple of old papers, citing the sentence:
"A (fat) lot of good *that* ever did me".
(Cf. the non-ironic "A lot of good has (*ever) been done by such efforts.")
And along the same lines:
"As if/Like *you'd* ever have a snowball's chance in hell of solving
any of those problems."

Larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 19:56:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:56:16 -0400
Subject: Cheney on "throes"
In-Reply-To: <27166.69.142.143.59.1119639733.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 3:02 PM -0400 6/24/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>The latest on the lexico-political front...
>...
>"If you look at what the dictionary says about throes, it can still be a
>violent period, the throes of a revolution," he said. "The point would be
>that the conflict will be intense, but it's intense because the terrorists
>understand that if we're successful at accomplishing our objective --
>standing up a democracy in Iraq -- that that's a huge defeat for them."
>-----
>...
>Also, speaking of dictionaries, I can't find this transitive use of "stand
>up" ("standing up a democracy in Iraq") in the OED or elsewhere. (MWCD11
>only gives one definition for transitive "stand up": "to fail to keep an
>appointment with".) But apparently this is common usage in the Bush
>administration, usually with "a (new) government" as the object of the
>verb.
>

Are you sure they're *not* using it in the standard MWCD11 use?   ;-)

L

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 19:56:59 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:56:59 -0500
Subject: bogeying=boogying
Message-ID: 

You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose.
But you can't pick your friend's nose.

> Jonathan Lighter:
> >>>
> My grandmother's NYC word for this (from her 1890s childhood)
> was "boogie."
> <<<
> For me, NYC, it was "booger" for a ball or blob of snot,
> hardened or not.
>
> I'm gonna drop the topic. I haven't et yet.
> -mm
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 24 19:57:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:57:16 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>  >"Spade" is the spelling I see most frequently on those "Free Cat" notices
>>on the vet's bulletin board.
>>
>>JL
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I've frequently heard "spaded" cat or dog, esp. up here in northern NY.
>Probably appears on notices, too, but I haven't been reading them.
>AM
>
Well, at least that provides a participle (although I guess some
radical mishearing must be involved).  I find "recently spade cat"
very odd, although it does preserve the phonology, given the
difficulty of taking "spade" to be a participle.

L

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 20:01:29 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:01:29 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:31:15 -0400, Laurence Horn 
wrote:

>At 10:04 AM -0700 6/24/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>>On Jun 23, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>>At 4:16 PM -0400 6/23/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>When it's an ironic/sarcastic assertion, there is often heavy
>>>>stress on the NP following "like" (especially if it's a
>>>>monosyllabic pronoun):
>>>>
>>>>"Like *that* matters!"
>>>>"Like *you* care!"
>>>>"Like *he* would know!"
>>>>
>>>>The sarcasm can be emphasized by a preceding interjection ("yeah",
>>>>"oh", "ah", "hah", etc.).
>>>
>>>cf. also "a lot" in the same frames, e.g. "A lot *that* matters!"
>>>
>>>>This construction is hard to search for in the databases, but
>>>>here's an example of ironic assertional "like" from 1966...
>>
>>just to bring out something we're all assuming here: what makes this
>>construction "ironic assertional" is that it conveys the negation of
>>the expressed proposition.  "like that matters" conveys 'that doesn't
>>matter', and "like you've never done that" conveys 'you've done that'.
>>
>>(i'm weaseling by using "conveys", so as not to have to decide
>>whether it's implication or some kind of implicature that's at issue.)
>>
>Well, it's a strong enough negation to license negative polarity
>items, as I noted in a couple of old papers, citing the sentence:
>"A (fat) lot of good *that* ever did me".
>(Cf. the non-ironic "A lot of good has (*ever) been done by such
>efforts.")
>And along the same lines:
>"As if/Like *you'd* ever have a snowball's chance in hell of solving
>any of those problems."

Also:

As if/like *he* knows anything.
As if/like *he* cares anymore.
As if/like *he* gives a shit/damn/rat's ass/etc.

"A (fat) lot" doesn't work in these frames, however.  "As if/like" can
negate a yes/no proposition, while "a (fat) lot" requires a quantitative
assessment (how much one knows/cares/etc., vs. whether one knows/cares).
But I'm sure this is all covered in Larry's negation papers...

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 20:04:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:04:44 -0500
Subject: Cheney on "throes"
Message-ID: 

>
> Also, speaking of dictionaries, I can't find this transitive
> use of "stand up" ("standing up a democracy in Iraq") in the
> OED or elsewhere. (MWCD11 only gives one definition for
> transitive "stand up": "to fail to keep an appointment
> with".) But apparently this is common usage in the Bush
> administration, usually with "a (new) government" as the
> object of the verb.
>
> See: 
>
>

It's pretty common in military speak.  Programs, project offices, etc.
are "stood up" (i.e., established, put to work).

AF Press Release, October 20, 2004, Air Force News Service. "Officials
activate National Security Space Institute"
 by Capt. Johnny Rea http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15326
"Air Force Space Command officials stood up a space education and
training organization here recently that they said will provide the
foundation to creating a new generation of space professionals. "

"Last 25th ID Unit in Afghanistan Prepares to Redeploy to Hawaii" By
Staff Sgt. Bradley Rhen, USA
Special to American Forces Press Service, May 25, 2005
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2005/20050525_1330.html
"That changed when a decision was made to stand up a new brigade in
Afghanistan, and Division Artillery was tabbed as the headquarters. "

"New Teams to Provide Expanded Human Intelligence Capabilities" By Donna
Miles
American Forces Press Service, Jan. 25, 2005
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2005/n01252005_2005012510.html
"DIA received the funding to stand up, manage and develop the teams. "

non-transitive uses of the same sense:

"Iraqi Army Day Celebrates Service, Honors Sacrifice" American Forces
Press Service, Jan. 10, 2005
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2005/n01102005_2005011003.html
"Two more squadrons will stand up in mid-January."

"Acquisition Cell to Speed Up Responses to Urgent Warfighter Needs"
WASHINGTON, Nov. 24, 2004
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2004/n11242004_2004112405.html
" "Yet, all too often, our organizations are reluctant to take advantage
of them," Wolfowitz wrote in his Sept. 3 memo ordering the new
acquisition cell's stand up. "

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 24 20:48:09 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:48:09 -0700
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> ... Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
> preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
> This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>
>      SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>      I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
>      call ____.  Love Kitty.
>
> There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
> hipster meaning in mind-- ... --many clearly involve the eggcornish
> reading...

taken at face value this looks like an "anti-eggcorn" -- a respelling
that indicates a *failure* of analysis, that is, that treats the word
as unanalyzable.  so i've been taking these occurrences of "spade" as
just ordinary misspellings, perhaps encouraged by some people's
failure to perceive "spayed" as "spay" + "ed".  (for what it's worth,
"spayed" gets more google webhits than plain "spay", but not by much:
709,000 to 660,000.  so it's not like "spay" is rare enough to be
disregarded.)

does anyone think of "spade" 'spayed' as involving one of the lexical
items "spade" (digging implement, card suit, black guy, whatever)?
that would make it a kind of eggcorn, though a non-canonical one.
otherwise, it's questionable.

it's not (yet) in the database, nor has it been brought up in the 400
+ comments there.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 21:03:47 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:03:47 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:48:09 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
 wrote:

>On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>> ... Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
>> preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
>> This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>>
>>      SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>>      I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
>>      call ____.  Love Kitty.
>>
>> There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
>> hipster meaning in mind-- ... --many clearly involve the eggcornish
>> reading...
>
>taken at face value this looks like an "anti-eggcorn" -- a respelling
>that indicates a *failure* of analysis, that is, that treats the word
>as unanalyzable.  so i've been taking these occurrences of "spade" as
>just ordinary misspellings, perhaps encouraged by some people's
>failure to perceive "spayed" as "spay" + "ed".  (for what it's worth,
>"spayed" gets more google webhits than plain "spay", but not by much:
>709,000 to 660,000.  so it's not like "spay" is rare enough to be
>disregarded.)
>
>does anyone think of "spade" 'spayed' as involving one of the lexical
>items "spade" (digging implement, card suit, black guy, whatever)?
>that would make it a kind of eggcorn, though a non-canonical one.
>otherwise, it's questionable.

For all we know, the respelling may have already engendered eggcornic
reinterpretations. And just imagine if this person's proposal was put
into effect...

-----
http://www.cal.net/~pamgreen/rescue_commandments.html
How I wish all vets would tatoo a spade symbol on each bitch's thigh
when they do a spay ! (I intend to write an article on this which will
be entitled "On Calling a Spayed a Spade.")
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 20:46:24 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:46:24 -0500
Subject: searchable New Yorker
Message-ID: 

The entire archive of _The New Yorker_ magazine is being released as
searchable DVDs

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/06/23/all_4000_issues_of_t.html

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 24 20:52:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:52:15 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:04:09 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>What we're looking for is the use of the exclamation to call attention
>to the *foolishness* of something/someone.  As HDAS points out, this is
>"typically pronounced with strong stress and falling intonation on [the]
>ultimate syllable," which is hard to represent in print (sometimes it
>shows up as a lengthened "Helloooo?" or something similar).

Oddly enough, this type of "Hello" was recently used in remarks by Gov.
Jeb Bush.  In the two press accounts I've seen, one followed the "Hello"
with an exclamation point and the other followed it with a question mark:

-----
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050623/APN/506231106
[Brent Kallestad, Associated Press Writer]
"How could you not know that you haven't paid your FICA and your Social
Security taxes?" Bush said. "Hello! That's just the craziest thing I've
ever heard."
-----
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050624/NEWS/506240382/1134
[Lloyd Dunkelberger, Ledger Tallahassee Bureau]
"How could you not know you haven't paid your (payroll) and Social
Security taxes? Hello? That's just the craziest thing I've ever heard."
-----

The Wonkette blog caught this and added some _Clueless_ embellishments...

-----
http://www.wonkette.com/politics/democrats/florida-political-dialog-ttyl-109903.php
Continued the governor: "I mean, like, I'm so sure." Reached for comment,
the chair of the Florida Dems replied, "Whatever. Bite me."
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Fri Jun 24 20:56:48 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:56:48 +0200
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
>Subject:      Re: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>
>
>>... Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
>>preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
>>This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>>
>>     SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>>     I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
>>     call ____.  Love Kitty.
>>
>>There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
>>hipster meaning in mind-- ... --many clearly involve the eggcornish
>>reading...
>>
>>
I've had this on an eggcorn list of mine for some time, but was unsure.
I thought it might be one of those ominous spell-checker slips: spayd ->
spade (leaving out the "e" of the "ed" marker is rather common.

>taken at face value this looks like an "anti-eggcorn" -- a respelling
>that indicates a *failure* of analysis, that is, that treats the word
>as unanalyzable.
>
I like the idea of anti-eggcorns.

>[..]
>
Chris Waigl

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 24 21:03:39 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:03:39 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'? as we say
 in gb english
Message-ID: 

And one more:

>X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
>X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] garnet.tc.umn.edu [160.94.23.2] #+LO+NM
>Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:43:18 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Amy Sheldon 
>To: Aubrey Nunes 
>cc: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>Subject: Re: Do children know what it means to 'talk posh'? as we say in
>  gb english
>Sender: 
>List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC.
>List-Unsubscribe: 
>X-LR-SENT-TO: ohiou.edu
>X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data:
>2005.6.24.24 (pm3)
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>X-PMX-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN
>0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0'
>
>My work on preschoolers (3-5 yrs) and others' on young children, showing
>gender differences in conflict management could be interpreted as
>*implicit* understanding and skill in making linguisic choices to manage
>one's agenda to manipulate social outcomes. I would think this skill is
>part of the phenomena you are asking about: the relationship between
>linguistic choices ('style') and the exercise of authority and power. 8
>yrs.  would be quite late to begin this skill, according the the
>literature, but also if you take a common sense approach to what it takes
>to live in groups for the first 8 or so years of life, and were to have
>any chance of getting what you want using language.
>
>Antecedents in really young kids might be behaviors such as
>smiling.
>
>Amy Sheldon
>
>On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Aubrey Nunes wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > What I am asking about is perhaps a very British English phenomenon - or
> > perhaps a point of sensitivity sharper in britain than elsewhere.
> >
> > My question is this: how early and how accurately do children learn to
> > detect corelations between a particular sort of speech and the exercise of
> > authority and power?
> >
> > I once read an unpublished BEd thesis from the early 90's showing that the
> > issues at stake here were pretty well understood by children of around 8;0,
> > as I recall. Since the implications are kind of obvious, I am sure that
> this
> > must have been well studied and reported.
> >
> > I would be most grateful for any pointers to literature on this.
> >
> > Aubrey
> >
> >
> > Aubrey Nunes,
> > Pigeon Post Box Ltd
> > 52 Bonham Road
> > London, SW2 5HG
> >
> > T:  0207 652 1347
> > E:  aubrey at pigeonpostbox.co.uk
> > I:  www.pigeonpostbox.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >

From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Fri Jun 24 21:11:32 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:11:32 +0200
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

>For all we know, the respelling may have already engendered eggcornic
>reinterpretations. And just imagine if this person's proposal was put
>into effect...
>
>-----
>http://www.cal.net/~pamgreen/rescue_commandments.html
>How I wish all vets would tatoo a spade symbol on each bitch's thigh
>when they do a spay ! (I intend to write an article on this which will
>be entitled "On Calling a Spayed a Spade.")
>-----
>
>
>
Oh, might it be the "digging something out" idea? Just found on Google:

----
And if it's female, you want to get it spade BEFORE it starts going into
heat, otherwise A.) You'll have to deal with the spawn of Satan and B.)
you have to be very careful when scheduling the surgery then because
vets charge more to spade a cat that's currently in heat.
----

To spade, spade, spade?

Chris Waigl

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 21:14:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:14:00 -0700
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
Message-ID: 

The quotes around "flying saucers" meant so-called "real"  "flying saucers" (UFOs), not incontrovertibly fictional flying "saucers."

But that is a neat "illo."

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Thanks, Jesse. So the phrase antedates interest in "flying
> saucers" by a number of years.
>

Interest in flying saucers goes back well before the phrase's (probable)
origins, in 1947:

http://www.frankwu.com/Paul-8.html

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From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 21:16:07 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:16:07 -0500
Subject: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:14 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "little green men" / "take me to your leader" origin?
>
> The quotes around "flying saucers" meant so-called "real"
> "flying saucers" (UFOs), not incontrovertibly fictional
> flying "saucers."
>
> But that is a neat "illo."
>

"Fictional" flying saucers?  The heck you say.  Where's my aluminum hat
. .  .

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 21:23:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:23:40 -0700
Subject: bogeying=boogying
Message-ID: 

NYU, 1972.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: bogeying=boogying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose.
But you can't pick your friend's nose.

> Jonathan Lighter:
> >>>
> My grandmother's NYC word for this (from her 1890s childhood)
> was "boogie."
> <<<
> For me, NYC, it was "booger" for a ball or blob of snot,
> hardened or not.
>
> I'm gonna drop the topic. I haven't et yet.
> -mm
>

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 21:25:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:25:25 -0700
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

Have heard "spaded" as well, very often.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >"Spade" is the spelling I see most frequently on those "Free Cat" notices
>>on the vet's bulletin board.
>>
>>JL
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I've frequently heard "spaded" cat or dog, esp. up here in northern NY.
>Probably appears on notices, too, but I haven't been reading them.
>AM
>
Well, at least that provides a participle (although I guess some
radical mishearing must be involved). I find "recently spade cat"
very odd, although it does preserve the phonology, given the
difficulty of taking "spade" to be a participle.

L

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 21:27:39 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:27:39 -0700
Subject: "like" and "as if"
Message-ID: 

Don't know when she picked it up, but my grandmother used to say "A fat lot of good that'll do you !"  She said it often.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:31:15 -0400, Laurence Horn
wrote:

>At 10:04 AM -0700 6/24/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>>On Jun 23, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>>At 4:16 PM -0400 6/23/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>When it's an ironic/sarcastic assertion, there is often heavy
>>>>stress on the NP following "like" (especially if it's a
>>>>monosyllabic pronoun):
>>>>
>>>>"Like *that* matters!"
>>>>"Like *you* care!"
>>>>"Like *he* would know!"
>>>>
>>>>The sarcasm can be emphasized by a preceding interjection ("yeah",
>>>>"oh", "ah", "hah", etc.).
>>>
>>>cf. also "a lot" in the same frames, e.g. "A lot *that* matters!"
>>>
>>>>This construction is hard to search for in the databases, but
>>>>here's an example of ironic assertional "like" from 1966...
>>
>>just to bring out something we're all assuming here: what makes this
>>construction "ironic assertional" is that it conveys the negation of
>>the expressed proposition. "like that matters" conveys 'that doesn't
>>matter', and "like you've never done that" conveys 'you've done that'.
>>
>>(i'm weaseling by using "conveys", so as not to have to decide
>>whether it's implication or some kind of implicature that's at issue.)
>>
>Well, it's a strong enough negation to license negative polarity
>items, as I noted in a couple of old papers, citing the sentence:
>"A (fat) lot of good *that* ever did me".
>(Cf. the non-ironic "A lot of good has (*ever) been done by such
>efforts.")
>And along the same lines:
>"As if/Like *you'd* ever have a snowball's chance in hell of solving
>any of those problems."

Also:

As if/like *he* knows anything.
As if/like *he* cares anymore.
As if/like *he* gives a shit/damn/rat's ass/etc.

"A (fat) lot" doesn't work in these frames, however. "As if/like" can
negate a yes/no proposition, while "a (fat) lot" requires a quantitative
assessment (how much one knows/cares/etc., vs. whether one knows/cares).
But I'm sure this is all covered in Larry's negation papers...

--Ben Zimmer

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From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Fri Jun 24 21:27:06 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:27:06 +0200
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

Following up myself:

I wrote:

>[...]
>To spade, spade, spade?
>
>
It's also a noun:

----
Lets talk about feral cats. Do you have any idea how many poor kitties
get gased? Spade and neutering works but these supposed cat lovers let
them breed like rats
----
*cat pissed off at me after spade  [title of a posting to
*rec.pets.cats.health+behav
]
----

Chris Waigl

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 21:33:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:33:23 -0700
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

FWIW, when I first heard the word "spayed" as a child, the only sense I could make out of it was that they used a tiny spade (a sharp instrument) to do it.

Presumably, others have been similarly misled.

JL

"Arnold M. Zwicky"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
Subject: Re: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> ... Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
> preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
> This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>
> SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
> I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet. Please
> call ____. Love Kitty.
>
> There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
> hipster meaning in mind-- ... --many clearly involve the eggcornish
> reading...

taken at face value this looks like an "anti-eggcorn" -- a respelling
that indicates a *failure* of analysis, that is, that treats the word
as unanalyzable. so i've been taking these occurrences of "spade" as
just ordinary misspellings, perhaps encouraged by some people's
failure to perceive "spayed" as "spay" + "ed". (for what it's worth,
"spayed" gets more google webhits than plain "spay", but not by much:
709,000 to 660,000. so it's not like "spay" is rare enough to be
disregarded.)

does anyone think of "spade" 'spayed' as involving one of the lexical
items "spade" (digging implement, card suit, black guy, whatever)?
that would make it a kind of eggcorn, though a non-canonical one.
otherwise, it's questionable.

it's not (yet) in the database, nor has it been brought up in the 400
+ comments there.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

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From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 21:35:02 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:35:02 -0500
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

>
> FWIW, when I first heard the word "spayed" as a child, the
> only sense I could make out of it was that they used a tiny
> spade (a sharp instrument) to do it.
>
> Presumably, others have been similarly misled.
>
Good thing the operation isn't called "pitchforked".

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Jun 24 21:34:50 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:34:50 -0500
Subject: searchable New Yorker--(request for "La Grande Pomme")
Message-ID: 

If someone already has access to the DVD, I'd be grateful if s/he would search for "La Grande Pomme" in a cartoon ca. 1970-1971.  I remember seeing the cartoon when it appeared, and I later often regretted not photocopying it.
The cartoon was drawn shortly after NYC's sobriquet "The Big Apple" was revived and shows a French mother and daughter arriving by boat in New York, with the Statue of Liberty nearby. The daughter, enraptured, says to her mother (perhaps preceded by "Oh, Maman"): "La Grande Pomme!"

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Mullins, Bill
> Sent:         Friday, June 24, 2005 3:46 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           searchable New Yorker
>
> The entire archive of _The New Yorker_ magazine is being released as searchable DVDs
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2005/06/23/all_4000_issues_of_t.html
>
>
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 21:38:37 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:38:37 -0700
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

But that wouldn't make any sense!

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> FWIW, when I first heard the word "spayed" as a child, the
> only sense I could make out of it was that they used a tiny
> spade (a sharp instrument) to do it.
>
> Presumably, others have been similarly misled.
>
Good thing the operation isn't called "pitchforked".

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 21:42:41 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:42:41 -0500
Subject: FW:      Redeye; Hammerhead; Shot in the Dark (Coffee)
Message-ID: 

> ...
> I saw a "redeye" at my local Dean & Deluca cafe. I don't
> think I've =20 discussed these coffee drinks. Unfortunately,
> I don't have FACTIVA handy. An= y  other=20 names for the same thing?

"Redeye gravy" predates this by a long shot.  Gravy made from drippings
from country ham, and hot water or possibly coffee.  I've always assumed
that the name refers to the patterns made by the grease floating in the
water or coffee, rather than the state of the consumer.

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 24 21:53:10 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:53:10 -0400
Subject: "a little sting"
In-Reply-To: <20050624040028.E32AAB24B9@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Arnold wrote:
   >>>>>
and now i can add, from direct observation at the Palo Alto Medical
Foundation this afternoon:  "a little sting", meaning 'there will be
a little sting'.  the m.d. was a bit taken aback when i commented on
his usage as he was wielding the hypodermic needle.
 <<<<<

Yeah, doctors can be funny that way. You were turning the tables by applying
your professional expertise to him. When I told mine about my tendinitis,
she was at first totally unable to deal with my description of the site of
the first symptom as "my left extensor indicis". Patients just aren't
expected to know and use accurate medical terminology.

And in fact I don't control a greater medical vocabulary than the average
educated hyperliterate layman :-). I just happen to have specialized in
American Sign Language and to have taken a term in "the anatomy of the
forelimb", as they call it over there.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 24 21:57:27 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:57:27 -0400
Subject: shahbaz
In-Reply-To: <20050624040028.E32AAB24B9@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Arnold wrote about Malcolm X's surname:
   >>>>>
Shabazz.  though you can find it misspelled as Shabbaz.
 <<<<<

I think you can find almost any word that has a double letter misspelled by
having the doubling applied to some other letter. "I know there's been a
double letter in there somewhere... well, that looks OK." I call this
phenomenon floating gemination, although of course "gemination" usually
refers to phonology, not orthography.

(Shazbot!)

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 24 22:21:53 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:21:53 -0500
Subject: searchable New Yorker
Message-ID: 

At one time, the entire National Geographic was available this way:
http://www.thejournal.com/magazine/vault/A1953.cfm

Also, Sport Aviation from the Experimental Aviation Association
http://www.eaa.org/sacd/

Also, Heritage Quest Magazine (genealogy)
http://www2.heritagequest.com/hq/sw.asp?Z_ID=ACD-2000

MotoRacing (1955 - 1964)
http://www.vintage-sportscar-photos.com/pubs/motoracing/

Mad Magazine has been available, but it seems to be out of print now
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/07/22/archive/technology/main55430.s
html

20 years worth of _The Watchtower_
http://www.witnessinc.com/cd's.html

QST (amateur radio) archives
http://www.radioera.com/_themes/cds.htm

assorted comic books on CD-ROM
http://www.comicsoncdrom.com/index.htm

every issue of Spiderman, Fantastic Four, and other assorted Marvel
comics
http://www.eagleonemedia.com/comic_book_cd-roms.htm

dentistry journals
http://www.oc-j.com/issue7/zeevab.htm

>
> The entire archive of _The New Yorker_ magazine is being
> released as searchable DVDs
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2005/06/23/all_4000_issues_of_t.html
>

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 24 22:28:16 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:28:16 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: <20050624212740.79808.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Don't know when she picked it up, but my grandmother used to say "A fat
>lot of >good that'll do you !"  She said it often.

>JL
~~~~~~~~~~~
This was (and still is) a *very* common expression among people of my
generation. I don't know what its source may have been.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 24 22:49:24 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:49:24 -0700
Subject: bitchin (was: Re: spaz(z))
Message-ID: 

Well, Jesse, I seem to have the discount edition, too.

Which indicates that the Farrell quote didn't make the cut, which indicates that it really illustrated sense 1.

Which is the likely source of sense 2 anyway.

But when you're right, you're right.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: bitchin (was: Re: spaz(z))
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 08:42:57AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> BTW, though HDAS has a very early cite for "bitchin'"
> ("splendid") from James T. Farrell, I never heard it in the
> '50s. Did anybody? It's still around after 70 years.

It does? I must have the discount version.

The earliest in my HDAS is 1957 in _Gidget_, with a number of
other early-1960s cites. At the DSNA meeting in Boston, the
term came up in a discussion, and a woman attested it in
exactly the Gidget use: mid-late 1950s, California, no hint
whatsoever of offensiveness or vulgarity (as would have been
expected to be the case with any _bitch_-derived word), and
always, always an -en or -in ending (i.e. not "-ing").

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Sat Jun 25 00:27:01 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:27:01 -0500
Subject: New Mexican Spanish, 1937, free ebook
Message-ID: 

 From the Online Books LiveJournal feed.  I have no idea how useful this
is; but the price is right.

A Study of the Phonology and Morphology of New Mexican Spanish, Based on
a Collection of 410 Folk-ta

http://standish.stanford.edu/bin/search/simple/process?query=rael
(1937; main text (Parts I and II) in English and tale volumes (Part III)
in Spanish), by Juan Bautista Rael (PDF files at Stanford)

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 25 01:48:21 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:48:21 -0400
Subject: frog strangler
In-Reply-To: <20050624134547.E13880@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

I'm sorry.  This had to be a toad strangler.  Frogs live in water.  Toads
don't.  Actually, I always heard toad strangler.

Jim

Mark A. Mandel writes:

> From another list that I'm on:
>    >>>>>
> PS We just went through a frog strangler of a storm, according the US
> Weather service, it dumped nearly 3 inches of rain in the past two
> hours! And it's still raining! Yikes, my dirt road will be a disaster!
>  <<<<<
>
>
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sat Jun 25 01:55:32 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:55:32 -0700
Subject: Change in Literacy Rate?
In-Reply-To: <200506231434.1dLwxs5eU3Nl34b0@mx-clapper.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

Has illiteracy really increased in the United States? I've always wondered
how many people really could read in the past given that documentation
methods were surely not as good as they are today.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Urdang
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 11:35 AM

> With the decline of family culture and the rise of
> semiliteracy in America, the traditional pronunciations have
> given way to spelling pronunciations. I don't care how people
> pronounce a given word, as long as I can understand what they
> mean.

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 02:52:15 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:52:15 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$fe1op1@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 7:47 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "like" and "as if"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In my bemused observation of New York's hippie subculture in the early
> '70s, I noticed "spade" being used by white guys as a very positive
> term.  Far-out radical wannabes (a word not known then) said it.  It
> was the only slang synonym for "black person" that could be so used,
> and my impression was that it must have been picked up from usage by
> Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown, though that was only a guess.
>
> I never met a black hippie.
>
> JL

Except for literary references - including the pun, "Black is the ace
of shades," used as a slogan in an ad by a St. Louis department store -
my only other personal experience with "spade" is as the punch line of
an anecdote - "spade logic" as a synonym for "illogic" - that the
teller found funny, but which I, naturally, found insulting. I felt
that the fellow had gone South Africa on me, i.e. for purposes of
telling the anecdote, he made me an honorary white man.

As for the usage of Stokely or H. Rap, I can neither confirm nor deny.

My experience WRT black hippies - and white hippies, too - is the same
as yours: never met one. Of course, this is not to say that I knew no
one with an interest in pharmaceuticals and  other popular
umrecreational activities of the era.

-Wilson

>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>> Subject: Re: "like" and "as if"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:56:55 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Back in those days, the introductory "like" was customarily followed
>>> by
>>> a comma, as there was almost always a slight pause between it and
>>> what
>>> followed. Of course, _Mojo Navigator_ may have been less
>>> punctilious.
>>
>> Like, I think the comma is/was most often used when introducing a
>> sentence-initial clause, but like if it's mid-sentential then the
>> comma
>> would often be dropped.
>>
>> Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>>
>> -----
>> At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
>> come
>> in, and like theyre white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
>> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>> -----
>> The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
>> don't
>> go down there unless you have a spade
>
> FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the word
> "spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
> cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
> about to sing some Western ditty.
>
> Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not to
> refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
> spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
> school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
> Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
> as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
> been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
> her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall, to
> coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>> friend with you.
>> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>> -----
>> I always used to sip my mother's beer, so like I started playin' right
>> then and just listened to all the different music around the country.
>> ("Country Joe and the Fish", 22 Nov. 1966)
>> -----
>>
>> Here's commaless "like" in both initial and medial position:
>>
>> -----
>> Like you go to the Avalon now and you'll see... it used to be like
>> just a
>> small group of people in front that were listening and then like 90%
>> of
>> the audience was running around and dancing...and now like almost the
>> whole auditorium is covered with sitting people, and it's, I think,
>> considered uncool to freak out.
>> ("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
>> -----
>>
>> But elsewhere in the same article initial "like" gets a comma:
>>
>> -----
>> Like, they're really good musicians, and they're tight, but so's
>> Wilson
>> Pickett, you know?
>> ("Interview with the Doors", Aug. 1967)
>> -----
>>
>> I think the magazine staff punctuated however they, like, liked.
>>
>>
>> --Ben Zimmer
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>

From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 25 03:02:24 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:02:24 -0400
Subject: frog strangler
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>I'm sorry.  This had to be a toad strangler.  Frogs live in water.  Toads
>don't.  Actually, I always heard toad strangler.

I guess I've heard both. My own favorite is "frog drowner".

-- Doug Wilson

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 25 03:27:58 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:27:58 -0400
Subject: searchable New Yorker--(request for "La Grande Pomme")
Message-ID: 

Gerald,

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:34:50 -0500, Cohen, Gerald Leonard 
wrote:

>If someone already has access to the DVD, I'd be grateful if s/he would
>search for "La Grande Pomme" in a cartoon ca. 1970-1971.  I remember
>seeing the cartoon when it appeared, and I later often regretted not
>photocopying it.
>The cartoon was drawn shortly after NYC's sobriquet "The Big Apple" was
>revived and shows a French mother and daughter arriving by boat in New
>York, with the Statue of Liberty nearby. The daughter, enraptured, says
>to her mother (perhaps preceded by "Oh, Maman"): "La Grande Pomme!"

I have _The Complete Cartoons of The New Yorker_, with every cartoon
published from 1924 to 2004 on 2 CD-ROMs.  I did a search on the relevant
keywords but came up empty.  The indexing of the cartoons seems pretty
comprehensive, so I'm wondering if perhaps this cartoon appeared somewhere
other than the New Yorker?

--Ben

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 03:41:15 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:41:15 -0400
Subject: Camels (was countdown was: "As If")
In-Reply-To: <42ut2e$3rjcga@mx21.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re : Camels (was countdown was: "As If")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> wilson ponders:
>>>>
> Has there ever been a more pleasant fragrance than that of a
> newly-opened, fresh pack of Camels?
> <<<
> How about the fragrance of camel droppings? It's all subjective, m'man.

Mirabile dictu, it has never been my misfortune to have had to deal
with any aspect of cameldom., potnuh. But my point wasn't that smoking
is good, if only one is able to restrict oneself to cigarettes made
from fragrant tobacco. Rather, my point was that the use of a mixture
of tobaccoes with an extremely pleasant fragrance was, for me, the
aspect of cigarettes that caused me to decide, while I was still in
short pants, long before I had formed the concept of looking or being
cool, that I was going to become a smoker.

> -mark, whose subjectivity is informed by the autobiographical truth
> behind
> my song "secondhand smoke", whose first verse is:
>
> Well, my dad was a two-pack-a-day man
> And the poison went straight to his heart.
> He never made it to fifty
> And I swore that I never would start.

I have full empathy for your point of view. Given that I was a smoker
for more years than your late father lived, I realize that I'm lucky
still to be alive and relatively well.

-Wilson

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 04:15:24 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:15:24 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4fpv9o@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:38 AM -0400 6/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>> Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>>>
>>> -----
>>> At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
>>> come
>>> in, and like they=92re white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
>>> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>>> -----
>>> The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
>>> don't
>>> go down there unless you have a spade
>>
>> FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the
>> word
>> "spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
>> cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
>> about to sing some Western ditty.
>>
>> Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not
>> to
>> refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
>> spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
>> school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
>> Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
>> as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
>> been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
>> her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall,
>> to
>> coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
> preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
> This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>
>       SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>       I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
>       call ____.  Love Kitty.
>
> There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
> hipster meaning in mind--
>
> A spade cat from Port Washington joined the Quarry and tried to tell
> us what was on his mind. He was a fairly good singer...
>
> If Barton had been a spade cat they would have thrown his ass into
> jail before you could say Bull Conners.
>
> --many clearly involve the eggcornish reading:
>
> Like the difference between the behavior of a spade cat and an unspade
> cat.
>
> I still cant quite beleive that a portrayal of a recently spade cat
> could be such great comedy material
>
> My female spade cat has a problem peeing on my bath rugs.
>
> (Actually, after coping recently with a (male) cat who had *no*
> problem peeing on my bath rugs, I wouldn't complain about a cat
> having a problem doing so.)
>
> Larry
>

We have two kitties. Given that they're black females, I guess you
could say that they're both spayed and spade! 

-Wilson

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 04:30:06 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:30:06 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4gng0d@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 6:28 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       sagehen 
> Subject:      Re: "like" and "as if"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Don't know when she picked it up, but my grandmother used to say "A
>> fat
>> lot of >good that'll do you !"  She said it often.
>
>> JL
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> This was (and still is) a *very* common expression among people of my
> generation.

Fuckin' A right, A!

-Wilson

>  I don't know what its source may have been.
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 25 04:33:14 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:33:14 -0400
Subject: "like" and "as if"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>  >Don't know when she picked it up, but my grandmother used to say "A fat
>>lot of >good that'll do you !"  She said it often.
>
>>JL
>~~~~~~~~~~~
>This was (and still is) a *very* common expression among people of my
>generation. I don't know what its source may have been.
>A. Murie

Note that it appears to be the same ironic "fat" that occurs in "fat
chance", i.e. 'slim chance'.  (Not that I'm claiming the
corresponding "a fat lot of good *that* will do" really means 'a slim
lot of good'...)

Larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 25 04:34:37 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:34:37 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <20050624213323.86154.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>FWIW, when I first heard the word "spayed" as a child, the only
>sense I could make out of it was that they used a tiny spade (a
>sharp instrument) to do it.

Which is what makes it a (potential) first-order, rather than anti-,
eggcorn (for such speakers).

L

>Presumably, others have been similarly misled.
>
>JL
>
>
>"Arnold M. Zwicky"  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
>Subject: Re: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>  ... Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
>>  preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
>>  This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>>
>>  SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>>  I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet. Please
>>  call ____. Love Kitty.
>>
>>  There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
>>  hipster meaning in mind-- ... --many clearly involve the eggcornish
>>  reading...
>
>taken at face value this looks like an "anti-eggcorn" -- a respelling
>that indicates a *failure* of analysis, that is, that treats the word
>as unanalyzable. so i've been taking these occurrences of "spade" as
>just ordinary misspellings, perhaps encouraged by some people's
>failure to perceive "spayed" as "spay" + "ed". (for what it's worth,
>"spayed" gets more google webhits than plain "spay", but not by much:
>709,000 to 660,000. so it's not like "spay" is rare enough to be
>disregarded.)
>
>does anyone think of "spade" 'spayed' as involving one of the lexical
>items "spade" (digging implement, card suit, black guy, whatever)?
>that would make it a kind of eggcorn, though a non-canonical one.
>otherwise, it's questionable.
>
>it's not (yet) in the database, nor has it been brought up in the 400
>+ comments there.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 25 04:37:07 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:37:07 -0400
Subject: shahbaz
In-Reply-To: <20050624175718.V80115@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

>Arnold wrote about Malcolm X's surname:
>    >>>>>
>Shabazz.  though you can find it misspelled as Shabbaz.
>  <<<<<
>
>I think you can find almost any word that has a double letter misspelled by
>having the doubling applied to some other letter. "I know there's been a
>double letter in there somewhere... well, that looks OK." I call this
>phenomenon floating gemination, although of course "gemination" usually
>refers to phonology, not orthography.
>
One frequent case in point is "assymetry" or "assymetric".  I'm
always noting in the margins that there's no "ass" in "asymmetry".

L

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 04:49:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:49:28 -0400
Subject: frog strangler
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4h8d7p@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:48 PM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       James C Stalker 
> Subject:      Re: frog strangler
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This had to be a toad strangler.  Frogs live in water.  Toads
> don't.  Actually, I've always heard toad strangler.
>
> Jim

I agree, Jim.

-Wilson

>
> Mark A. Mandel writes:
>
>> From another list that I'm on:
>>>>>>>
>> PS We just went through a frog strangler of a storm, according the US
>> Weather service, it dumped nearly 3 inches of rain in the past two
>> hours! And it's still raining! Yikes, my dirt road will be a disaster!
>>  <<<<<
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>>
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>

From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Sat Jun 25 09:12:22 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:12:22 +0200
Subject: shahbaz
Message-ID: 

Laurence Horn wrote:

>>Arnold wrote about Malcolm X's surname:
>>   >>>>>
>>Shabazz.  though you can find it misspelled as Shabbaz.
>> <<<<<
>>
>>I think you can find almost any word that has a double letter misspelled by
>>having the doubling applied to some other letter. "I know there's been a
>>double letter in there somewhere... well, that looks OK." I call this
>>phenomenon floating gemination, although of course "gemination" usually
>>refers to phonology, not orthography.
>>
>>
>>
>One frequent case in point is "assymetry" or "assymetric".  I'm
>always noting in the margins that there's no "ass" in "asymmetry".
>
>L
>
>
>
>
Or "parralel". Maths teachers all over the world lead the charge against
it.

People apparently like to select the first consonant that lends itself
to doubling.

Chris Waigl

From dravidianlinguist at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 25 10:22:44 2005
From: dravidianlinguist at REDIFFMAIL.COM (Deekonda NarsingaRao)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:22:44 -0000
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 Lalhe Ghaderifard wrote :
>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Lalhe Ghaderifard 
>Subject:      unsubscribe
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>UNSUBSCRIBE

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 25 11:08:54 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:08:54 EDT
Subject: Bubbles are for Bathtubs; Maggie Moo's Ice Cream & Treatery
Message-ID: 

BUBBLES ARE FOR BATHTUBS
...
"Bubbles are for bathtubs?" As I was just telling my friend Michael  Jackson, 
and his friend Bubbles...
...
The phrase has been used the past month. I haven't checked FACTIVA.
...
Also, bubbles are for bursting.
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Curbed_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.curbed.com/&e=912) 
... pending," of course,  especially vis-a-vis the word, "flip"), and the 
rather
catchy slogan,  "Bubbles Are For Bathtubs," runs across the homepage.  ...
www.curbed.com/ - 70k - Jun 23, 2005 - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:svcas1LO8EEJ:www.curbed.com/+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8)
  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:www.curbed.com/)  
...
_Real Estate - The New York Sun - NY Newspaper_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=6&q=http://www.nysun.com/section/22&e=912) 
"Bubbles are for Bathtubs." The statement stretches  confidently across the 
top
of the Web site Condoflip.com, a new online  marketplace for buying and ...
www.nysun.com/section/22 - 21k - Jun 23, 2005 - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:u6gp3KwJEfQJ:www.nysun.com/section/22+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en
&start=6&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:www.nysun.com/section/22)  
...
_growabrain: Apartment buildings in Riverside_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&
start=12&q=http://growabrain.typepad.com/growabrain/2005/06/apartment_build.html&e=912) 
Bubbles are for bathtubs. Condo Flip™ lets buyers  of preconstruction condos 
resell
or assign those condos to new buyers. The  387 Houses of Peter Fritz, ...
growabrain.typepad.com/growabrain/ 2005/06/apartment_build.html -  27k - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:wkVjdntw0hEJ:growabrain.typepad.com/growabrain/2005/06/apartment_build.html+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en&start=12&ie=UT
F-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:growabrain.typepad.com/growabrain/2005/06/apartment_build.html)

...
_The Kirk Report : The Long & Short Of It  All_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=20&q=http://www.thekirkreport.com/2005/06/the_long_short_.html&e=912) 
Bubbles are for bathtubs!  I'm off for the rest of the day. Without anything 
great
to trade and nice  weather outside, I plan on enjoying it. ...
www.thekirkreport.com/2005/06/the_long_short_.html - 16k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:GQiGZ-aV0i0J:www.thekirkreport.com/2005/06/the_lon
g_short_.html+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en&start=20&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:www.thekirk
report.com/2005/06/the_long_short_.html)  
...
_blogrunner: The New York Times - Weather Virtual  Weblog_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=28&q=http://annotatedtimes.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/5/3/38
6D97E000120653/&e=912) 
TopGolf ramps up driving range;  Bubbles are for bathtubs! I'm off for the 
rest
of the  day. Without anything great to trade and nice weather outside,  ...
annotatedtimes.blogrunner.com/  snapshot/D/5/3/386D97E000120653/ - 27k - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:npRlGJjE-HIJ:annotatedtimes.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/5/3/386D97E000120653/+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en&start=28&ie=UT
F-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:annotatedtimes.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/5/3/386D97E000120653/)

...
_OweBoat_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=34&q=http://www.oweboat.com/&e=912) 
“Bubbles are  for Bathtubs”, nice slogan. “Where Buyers Flippers Brokers  and
Developers Come Together” and drive up prices while reaping comissions.  ...
www.oweboat.com/ - 44k - Jun 23, 2005 - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:pbEW4sCfzkcJ:www.oweboat.com/+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en&start=34&ie=UTF
-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:www.oweboat.com/)  
...
_ACG: Message Board for ACM INCOME FD INC - Yahoo!  Finance_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=44&q=http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mb?s=acg&e=912) 
Re: Bubbles are for  Bathtubs. stockastic... 9:45am, Jun 23. Bubbles are for  
Bathtubs.
redfrecknj, 7:22am, Jun 23. Re: IMH. petros8001... 1:50am, Jun 23  ...
finance.yahoo.com/q/mb?s=acg - 23k - Jun 23,  2005 - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:D-qVqJbnpiUJ:finance.yahoo.com/q/mb?s=acg+"bubbles+are+f
or"&hl=en&start=44&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:finance.yahoo.com/q/mb?s=acg)  
...
_The Housing Bubble 2: June 2005_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=63&q=http://thehousingbubble2.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_thehousingbubble2_archive.html
&e=912) 
Condo  Flip: "Bubbles Are For Bathtubs". This condo flipping web  site is 
being
reported by Inman News, "The debut of Condo Flip comes at a  time when many 
...
thehousingbubble2.blogspot.com/  2005_06_01_thehousingbubble2_archive.html - 
460k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:uYpBdzQXiNcJ:thehousingbubble2.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_thehousingbubble2_archive.html+"bubbles+are+for"
&hl=en&start=63&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:thehousingbubble2.blogs
pot.com/2005_06_01_thehousingbubble2_archive.html)  
...
_TIME.com Print Page: Press Releases -- HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE 8/5  ..._ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=112&q=http://205.188.238.109/time/press_releases
/printout/0,8816,331995,00.html&e=912) 
... Roston report. "Bubbles  are for stocks, not homes. Real estate is an 
incredibly
steady  investment," according to TIME. - HOT SPOTS ... 
205.188.238.109/time/press_releases/  printout/0,8816,331995,00.html - 14k - 
Supplemental Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:VTpbaDaR5xYJ:205.188.238.109/time/press_releases/printout/0,8816,331995,00.html+"bubbles
+are+for"&hl=en&start=112&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:205.188.238.109/time/press_relea
ses/printout/0,8816,331995,00.html)  
...
_Citywire :: News :: Citywire's entire online free and premium news  ..._ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=23&q=http://www.citywire.co.uk/News/ArchiveB
yMonth.aspx?day=9&month=7&year=2001&e=912) 
Bubbles are for  bursting: Edmond Jackson's Notepad notes that, not 
surprisingly,
bid  speculation around Marconi got going in the weekend press, ...
www.citywire.co.uk/News/ArchiveByMonth.  aspx?day=9&month=7&year=2001 - 54k - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:7vV7IGbwy-sJ:www.citywire.co.uk/News/ArchiveByMonth.aspx?day=9&month=7&year=2001+"bubbles+are+for"&hl=en&star
t=23&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:www.citywire.co.uk/News/ArchiveByMonth.aspx?day=9&mon
th=7&year=2001)  
...
_Wallpapers - Screen Savers - Desktop Themes Hotbars and ICQ Skins  ..._ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=50&q=http://freewaresaver.com/desktop/L41.htm
l&e=912) 
Longings Wallpaper Are you trapped in  your longings as is this lovely fairy 
No
matter how beautiful, a cage is  still a cage, and bubbles are for bursting.  
...
freewaresaver.com/desktop/L41.html - 35k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:xQ1jooXGrQ8J:freewaresaver.com/desktop/L41.html+"bubbles+are+for"&
hl=en&start=50&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:freewaresaver.com/desktop/L41.html)  

...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
TREATERY
...
In my campaign to lose weight, I walked a block to the new Maggie  Moo's on 
the upper East Side, Second Avenue and E.74 Street. The area now has  MM, a 
Cold Stone Creamery, a Haagen Dazs, a Baskin Robbins, a Sedutto, an Emack  & 
Bolio's, all within about 12 blocks. I had a peanut butter attack, and  Maggie, I 
wish I'd never seen your face.
...
Is "treatery" exclusive to Maggie?
...
...
_Welcome to MaggieMoo's Ice Cream and  Treatery_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.maggiemoos.com/&e=912) 
A great franchise opportunity,  MaggieMoo's Ice Cream and Treatery. 
MaggieMoo's is
an exciting retail  chain of ice cream franchises featuring fruit smoothies 
...
www.maggiemoos.com/ - 8k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:OJlFl21Y9bsJ:www.maggiemoos.com/+treatery&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar 
pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.maggiemoos.com/)  

From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 25 11:09:54 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:09:54 -0700
Subject: Change in Literacy Rate?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

What is 'family culture'?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Urdang
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 11:35 AM

> With the decline of family culture and the rise of
> semiliteracy in America, the traditional pronunciations have
> given way to spelling pronunciations.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Sat Jun 25 11:46:11 2005
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:46:11 -0400
Subject: new Sappho translation variant
Message-ID: 

In the Sappho poem newly recovered by combining an Oxford Oxyrhynchus papyrus
with Cologne mummy cartonage, the first published translation begins:

[You for] the fragrant-blossomed Muses' lovely gifts
[be zealous] girls, and the clear melodious lyre:

but Reuters reports the first translated line:

For you the fragrant-bosomed Muses' lovely gifts,

Martin West, "A new Sappho poem," Times Literart Supplement:
http://www.the-tls.co.uk/this_week/story.aspx?story_id=2111206

Reuters:
http://today.reuters.co.uk (or via news.google)

Stephen Goranson

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 25 12:41:56 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:41:56 -0400
Subject: "Each one teach one" (1923)
Message-ID: 

This was also used by the American Bahai community in the 1980s

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 25 12:58:35 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:58:35 EDT
Subject: "Realtor" (1915-1916) and Charles N. Chadbourn(e)
Message-ID: 

"Realtor" is a great Americanism. OED will revise the entry soon.
...
Was it coined in 1915 or 1916? By Charles N. Chadbourn or Charles N.  
Chadbourne? Could OED verify the spelling of his name?
...
...
(OED)  
Realtor
U.S.
[f. _REALT(Y2_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=realtor&first=1&max_to_show=10&single=1&sort_type=alpha&xrefword=realt(y&ho
monym_no=2)   + _-OR_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=realtor&first=1&max_to_show=10&single=1&sort_type=alpha&xrefword=-or
) .]   
A proprietary term in the U.S. for a real-estate agent or  broker who belongs 
to the National Association of Realtors (formerly the  National Association 
of Real Estate Boards). Also gen., an estate agent. 

1916 C. N. CHADBOURN in Nat. Real Estate Jrnl. 15 Mar. 111/2, I propose that  
the National Association adopt a professional title to be conferred upon its  
members which they shall use to distinguish them from outsiders. That this 
title  be copyrighted and defended by the National Association against misuse... 
I  therefore, propose that the National Association adopt and confer upon its 
 members, dealers in realty, the title of realtor (accented on the first  
syllable). 1922 _S.  LEWIS_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-l.h
tml#s-lewis)  Babbitt xiii. 157 We  ought to insist that folks call us ‘realtors’ and 
not ‘real-estate men’. Sounds  more like a reg'lar profession. 1925 _O. W.  
HOLMES_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-h3.html#o-w-holmes)  Let. 17 
Dec. in  Holmes-Laski Lett. (1953) I. 807 These realtors, as they call 
themselves, I presume are  influential. 1929 Sun (Baltimore) 8 Jan. 26/3 (heading) 
Realtors doubt plan for Fox Theater here. 1931 Evening  Standard 25 Apr. 15/2 
(heading) ‘Realtor’  recommends Surrey. 1934 _E.  POUND_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-p3.html#e-pound)  Eleven New Cantos xxxv. 23 His Wife now 
acts as his model and the Egeria Has, let us say,  married a realtor. 1942 Amer. 
 Speech XVII. 209/2 The ambitious realtor's  favorites, the over~worked 
[street names] Grand, Broadway, and Inspiration. 1948 Official  Gaz. (U.S. Patent 
Office) 14 Sept. 340/2 National  Association of Real Estate Boards, Chicago, 
Ill... Service Mark.  Realtors. For services in connection with the brokerage of 
real estate...  Claims use since Mar. 31, 1916. 1962 _R. B.  FULLER_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-f2.html#r-b-fuller)  Epic Poem on 
Industrialization 139 The organized religions The world's premier realtors. 1969 Parade 
(N.Y.) 14 Dec. 18/2 The  realtor who sold most of the property to the hippies 
has had her office windows  smashed. 1970 Globe  & Mail (Toronto) 25 Sept. 40/2 
(Advt.), Metro  wide established realtor with country wide referral contacts. 
1973 R. C. DENNIS Sweat of Fear ix. 59 The  realtor said... ‘Let me point out 
some of the features of this lovely, lovely  home.’ 1979 Tucson  Mag. Apr. 
33/3 Included are..bankers and lawyers;  social and political activists; 
professors and artists, renovators and  historians, journalists and realtors. 
... 
... 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL  NEWSPAPERS) 
... 
_Editorial  of the Day; WHAT IS A "REALTOR"? _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=382971121&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN
ame=HNP&TS=1119703375&clientId=65882) 
Chicago Daily Tribune  (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 18, 1916. p. 8 (1 
page)  
... 
_URGES  FIGHT IN COURTS TO SAVE TERM REALTOR; Alan Who Coined Word Asks That 
It  Be-Protected-Association Picks San Francisco. _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=192376652&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=30
9&VName=HNP&TS=1119703375&clientId=65882) 
The  Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 9, 1922. p. 2 (1 
page)  : 
C. N. Chadbourne, of Minneapolis, who coined the term, protested  against its 
indiscriminate use. 
... 
_'REALTOR'  IN'WORD TEST.:; Girl, 14, Wins 'by 8pllin Iti Correctly -- Ori$1n 
Explained. ! _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=93469326&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1119703729&clientId=65
882) 
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York,  N.Y.: May 26, 1935. p. RE6 (1 
page)  
The occasion led Walter C. Piper, head of a realty firm bearing his  name in 
Detroit, to recall the fact that in reply to his request for suggestions  in 
1915 Charles N. Chadbourne of Minneapolis proposed that the National  
Association of Real Estate Boards adopt the word "realtor" to designate the  active 
members of the association. Mr. Piper was president of the association at  that 
time. 
... 
_Court  Enjoins Unauthorized Use of 'Realtor'; Coined Word Held to Be 
Valuable Property  Right of Board Members. _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=240267112&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS
=1119703729&clientId=65882) 
The Washington Post  (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 26, 1936. p. R10 (1 
page) 
It cited  further that ever since the term was donated to the National 
Association of Real  Estate Boards by the Minneapolis Real Estate Board, whose 
member, Charles N.  Chadbourne, coined the word,...

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 25 13:15:25 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:15:25 EDT
Subject: Browncoats
Message-ID: 

Browncoats?
...
Where is the ADS "Buffy" guy when you need him?
...
...
...
_http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/757fhfxg.as
p_
(http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/757fhfxg.asp)

The Browncoats Rise Again
The best sci-fi TV series you've never seen has gone from  cancellation to
the big screen. Will a never-tried marketing strategy work  for "Serenity"?
by M.E. Russell
06/24/2005 12:00:00 AM

Portland, May 26, 10:00 p.m.
"HI, MY NAME IS JOSS  WHEDON. Before we begin the special screening, I have a
little story  I want to tell you. It's about a TV show called Firefly."
I'm sitting in a movie theater in Portland and along with 200  other fans,
I'm staring at a 20-foot-tall projection of the bleary,  peanut-shaped head of
Joss Whedon--creator of Buffy the Vampire  Slayer; he's snarkily introducing
Serenity--the  partially-completed film we're about to watch. We're paying to
see  this unfinished movie four months before its release date. It's the  second
of three rounds of sold-out sneak-preview screenings,  scheduled for May 5
and 26 and June 23 in major cities.
It's an unprecedented way to market a movie. But then,  Serenity itself is
unusual: It's a big-screen sequel to a  canceled TV show named Firefly--a
space-Western that was the  biggest bomb of Whedon's producing career.
"Firefly went on the air two years ago," the giant Whedon  continues, "and
was immediately hailed by critics as one of the most  canceled shows of the
year."
Everyone laughs.
"It was ignored and abandoned, and the story should end  there--but it
doesn't. Because the people who made the show and the  people who saw the
show--which is, roughly, the same number of  people--fell in love with it a little bit.
Too much to let it go. .  . . In Hollywood, people like that are called
unrealistic, quixotic,  obsessive. In my world, they're called 'Browncoats.'"
(Firefly fans call themselves "Browncoats," for reasons I'll  explain in a minute.)

(...)

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bickering  outlaws.
...
...
...
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 25 15:04:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:04:49 -0700
Subject: "all the faster'
Message-ID: 

OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no surprise, since I was told in junior high English that it was at least as revolting as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or written on pain of lofty disdain.

I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:

1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the faster this Model T will go?

In other words, "as fast as."

How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ?  Is there a syntactician in the house ?  (Goak.)

JL

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 25 15:17:39 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:17:39 -0700
Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
Message-ID: 

The 1935 film _Bordertown_ (with Paul Muni and Betet Davis - fine period performances) is partially set in L.A.  My attention was caught by the fact that a snooty villain pronounced it with a  / g /  rather than the now universal / J /  (if I may use that ad-hoc symbol).

The quasi-Spanish origin of the pronunciation isn't the question. (The actor was clearly using an English pronunciation and not trying consciously to imitate Spanish.)

To me it sounded bizarre, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other old movies. The question is how widespread was this, and when did it go away ?

JL

---------------------------------
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From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Sat Jun 25 16:02:12 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:02:12 +0200
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
Message-ID: 

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

>it's not (yet) in the database, nor has it been brought up in the 400
>+ comments there.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>
>
Done. http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/388/spade/

Chris Waigl

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 25 16:23:51 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:23:51 -0400
Subject: "all the faster'
In-Reply-To: <20050625150449.4261.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no surprise,
>since I was told in junior high English that it was at least as revolting
>as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or written on pain of lofty
>disdain.
>
>I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>
>1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the
>faster this Model T will go?
>
>In other words, "as fast as."
>
>How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ?  Is
>there a syntactician in the house ?  (Goak.)
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~

This doesn't really seem objectionable to me.  It assumes, reasonably, that
there is a limit to the speed that the Model T can obtain, and is asking
where in the remaining range above the present speed it is now; has it
exhausted that range?.  "How much faster can it go?" in other words.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 25 17:32:05 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:32:05 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>On Jun 24, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>>Subject:      spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>At 12:38 AM -0400 6/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd would
>>>>come
>>>>in, and like they=92re white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
>>>>("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>>>>-----
>>>>The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
>>>>don't
>>>>go down there unless you have a spade
>>>
>>>FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the
>>>word
>>>"spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were spade
>>>cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he was
>>>about to sing some Western ditty.
>>>
>>>Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not
>>>to
>>>refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
>>>spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
>>>school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
>>>Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to spades
>>>as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
>>>been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request and
>>>her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall,
>>>to
>>>coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.
>>>
>>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>>Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
>>preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
>>This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>>
>>       SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>>       I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
>>       call ____.  Love Kitty.
>>
>>There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
>>hipster meaning in mind--
>>
>>A spade cat from Port Washington joined the Quarry and tried to tell
>>us what was on his mind. He was a fairly good singer...
>>
>>If Barton had been a spade cat they would have thrown his ass into
>>jail before you could say Bull Conners.
>>
>>--many clearly involve the eggcornish reading:
>>
>>Like the difference between the behavior of a spade cat and an unspade
>>cat.
>>
>>I still cant quite beleive that a portrayal of a recently spade cat
>>could be such great comedy material
>>
>>My female spade cat has a problem peeing on my bath rugs.
>>
>>(Actually, after coping recently with a (male) cat who had *no*
>>problem peeing on my bath rugs, I wouldn't complain about a cat
>>having a problem doing so.)
>>
>>Larry
>>
>
>We have two kitties. Given that they're black females, I guess you
>could say that they're both spayed and spade! 
>
>-Wilson

We ended up choosing two female kittens from a different litter
advertised in the same paper, a tabby and an an all-black who will
turn 10 this summer, and my reaction was that we could save some
money at the vets' because they would only need to operate on one of
the two kitties--the other one was spade when we got her.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 25 17:50:39 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:50:39 -0400
Subject: "all the faster'
In-Reply-To: <20050625150449.4261.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:04 AM -0700 6/25/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no
>surprise, since I was told in junior high English that it was at
>least as revolting as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or
>written on pain of lofty disdain.
>
>I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>
>1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all
>the faster this Model T will go?
>
>In other words, "as fast as."

or "the fastest".  (Note that it only substitutes for "as fast as" in
the above construction, not in e.g. "X is/drives as fast as Y".)

Unlike listmates Geoff Nunberg and Arnold Zwicky, I'm no syntactician
(nor do I even play one on TV), but I'd catalogue the relevant
construction as "all the X", where X is a comparative, not as "all
the faster" specifically; cf. "all the better", "all the odder", "all
the more",...  Of course it might be argued that these represent
different constructions, rather than examples of the same syntactic
process.

The OED does have under sense 1 of the adv. use of "the":

==========
Preceding an adjective or adverb in the comparative degree, the two
words forming an adverbial phrase modifying the predicate.
The radical meaning is 'in or by that', 'in or by so much', e.g. 'if
you sow them now, they will come up the sooner'; 'he has had a
holiday, and looks the better', to which the pleonastic 'for it' has
been added, and the sentence at length turned into 'he looks the
better for his holiday'
========

but that doesn't explain the "all" before the "the".

>How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ?
>Is there a syntactician in the house ?  (Goak.)

arnold, what sayest thou?  Seems like something that Construction
Grammarians might have looked at, but I don't have any on me to ask.

Larry

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 25 18:24:58 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:24:58 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of Manhattan in
>the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd never
>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.

I posted the Russell Baker quote on the alt.usage.english newsgroup, and
it elicited this response from Joe Fineman (Caltech class of '58):

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/bded7888abdc8c8c

Here, FWIW, is the entry in my journal (1956) from a section on the
language of Caltech students:

  SPAZ, n.R  (shortened from _spastic_)  1. _Obsolete._  A person
  lacking in the common social skills & virtues.  See TWITCH.  2.
  To surprise a person in a way that causes him to take some time to
  react. v.R

The "R" means "regional or national" -- i.e., I was aware at the time
that this was not just Caltech slang.  The noun was, of course,
obsolete only at Caltech, where it had been replaced by the allusive
"twitch".
-----

Thank goodness for college kids keeping slang journals! It's fascinating
that "spaz" was already considered obsolete as early as 1956 at Caltech.
Might this suggest a West Coast origin (or at least early popularization)?
While Manhattanites were picking up "spaz", the Caltechies had already
moved on to "twitch". Any other college reminiscences?

--Ben Zimmer

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 25 18:36:59 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:36:59 -0700
Subject: "a little sting"
In-Reply-To: <20050624175223.S80115@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 24, 2005, at 2:53 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> Arnold wrote:
>
> and now i can add, from direct observation at the Palo Alto Medical
> Foundation this afternoon:  "a little sting", meaning 'there will be
> a little sting'.  the m.d. was a bit taken aback when i commented on
> his usage as he was wielding the hypodermic needle.
>
Mark followed up:
>
> Yeah, doctors can be funny that way. You were turning the tables by
> applying
> your professional expertise to him.

well, this was a new guy -- a podiatrist who did minor surgery on my
foot.  all the rest of the (very) many physicians (family physicians,
neurologists, surgeons, and many more) i've dealt with over the years
have expected me to be knowledgeable.  and they used symmetric
address, calling me "doctor" or "professor" zwicky, or "arnold", and
expecting parallel terms in response. of course, they were almost all
colleagues at either ohio state or stanford.

my family doctor, jay, tells me that he's always pleased to see me,
because we have such interesting conversations.  our current joint
triumphs are

- the time i phoned to say that i'd woken up with bell's palsy and
explained how i knew it was b.p. and not a stroke.  jay agreed and
said that that meant there was no high crisis, but he still wanted to
see me that morning because he'd come across some japanese research
indicating that a particular antiviral might clear the condition up.
he noted that i was unlikely to have come across this work in a
literature search.  the antiviral worked like a charm; the palsy
passed away in days rather than weeks or months.  we were both
pleased with ourselves.

- the time i came in right after developing an apparent boil that
looked like it was turning into cellulitis.  despite having a high
fever and feeling deranged by it, i did my homework first.  at the
office visit, jay said, well, it's probably just cellulitis, which is
troublesome but not life-threatening, but that there were three very
unlikely (and life-threatening) things it could be.  oh, i said:
bubonic plague, bubonic syphilis, and necrotizing fasciitis.  right,
he crowed.  we were quickly able to rule out the first two but had to
consider the third as a remote possibility, so aggressive care and
watchfulness were called for.  the fact that i came in immediately
and that he entertained the possibility of n.f. saved my life.

> When I told mine about my tendinitis,
> she was at first totally unable to deal with my description of the
> site of
> the first symptom as "my left extensor indicis". Patients just aren't
> expected to know and use accurate medical terminology.

accurate medical terminology isn't always particularly useful.  my
experience is that doctors are grateful if you use it when it's
relevant, but are seriously annoyed if you just show off.  this makes
sense to me.

sometimes there's just no choice.  over many years i had to explain
to a series of doctors that among the many disastrous neurological
conditions my partner was suffering from was something called peri-
ictal schizophreniform-like psychosis.  many doctors have at least
heard of anosognosia (another one of his conditions with no common
name), but peri-ictal etc. is so rare that even many neurologists are
unfamiliar with it.  on several occasions, i had to spell out the
name for doctors who were filling out insurance forms.

at one point in columbus, the neurologist had me bring jacques in to
see him and a young man who was just starting his residency in
neurology.  the resident had just had his first real-life experience
with florid schizophrenia and was obviously rattled by it.  the
neurologist and i then passed the ball back and forth, explaining to
the resident the many ways in which peri-ictal etc. could be
distinguished from textbook schizophrenia of the sort he'd just
seen.  this was sort of fun, *and* i got to feel that some small
useful thing was coming out of the horror of jacques's decline.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Jun 25 18:40:10 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:40:10 -0500
Subject: "all the faster'
Message-ID: 

"Is this all the faster this Model T will go?" --- This may represent (at least to some extent) a syntactic blend, from:

"Is this all the speed this Model T will get?" and:
"Can't this Model T go faster?"

I mention this just as a suggestion. If the construction is in fact a blend, it's not one of the clear, unambiguous type.

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent:         Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:04 AM
> Subject:           "all the faster'
>

> 1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the faster this Model T will go?
>
> In other words, "as fast as."
>
> How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ?  Is there a syntactician in the house ?  (Goak.)
>
> JL
>
>
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 25 19:01:51 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:01:51 -0400
Subject: street, attrib./adj.
Message-ID: 

On the alt.usage.english newsgroup, contributor Mickwick posted this query:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/072fee00f74fd336

Ben, would it be possible for you to look up the hip adjective 'street',
the one meaning demotic or vernacular or (non-pejorative) vulgar or
'what real people are doing and saying right now without any help from
the Man' or thereabouts? (It's very hard to define without using
'street' in the definition.) I'm half-hoping that I've found an
antedating instance.

It's unlikely, though. Since I first came across it I've realised that
it's probably a different 'street', one connected with hobos rather than
urban hipsters - not life on the street but life on the road.

But I might as well post it. Whatever its meaning, it's pleasantly
oxymoronic.

It's in a transcript of a 1963 radio interview with Bob Dylan (in the
latest _Granta_). Studs Terkel is trying to get Dylan to explain why he
affects such a folksy mode of speech.

Terkel: Some will say: listen to Bob Dylan, he's talking street mountain
        talk now, though he's a literate man, see.

(Dylan says he 'got no answer' but he doesn't mind if people think he's
literate.)
-----

OED2 def. 4e has the more urban sense (e.g., "street culture") from 1967.
Can anyone antedate attributive/adjectival "street" in either the hip
urban sense or Terkel's apparently hobo-related sense?

--Ben Zimmer

From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 25 19:09:48 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:09:48 -0700
Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
In-Reply-To: <20050625151739.17328.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 8:18 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
>
>
> The 1935 film _Bordertown_ (with Paul Muni and Betet Davis - fine
> period performances) is partially set in L.A.  My attention was
> caught by the fact that a snooty villain pronounced it with a  /
> g /  rather than the now universal / J /  (if I may use that
> ad-hoc symbol).
>
> The quasi-Spanish origin of the pronunciation isn't the question.
> (The actor was clearly using an English pronunciation and not
> trying consciously to imitate Spanish.)
>
> To me it sounded bizarre, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it in
> other old movies. The question is how widespread was this, and
> when did it go away ?

The narrator on Firesign Theater's "The Further Adventures of Nick Danger"
(the flip side of the 1969 album "How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When
You're Not Anywhere At All") uses the / g / pronunciation. He's clearly
imitating the style of a 1930s radio serial and part of the conceit is that
the pronunciation is no longer current (but still recognizeable, albeit
humorously, to a 1969 audience):

"NARRATOR: Los Angeles, he walks again by night. Out of the fog, into the
smog. (cough) Relentlessly, ruthlessly (NICK: I wonder where Ruth is),
doggedly (woof woof), toward his weekly meeting with the unknown. At Fourth
and Drucker he turns left. At Drucker and Fourth he turns right. He crosses
MacArthur Park and walks into a great sandstone building (NICK: ooh - my
nose). Groping for the door (ring) he steps inside (ring) climbs the
thirteen steps to his office (ring). He walks in (ring). He's ready for
mystery (ring). He's ready for excitement (ring). He's ready for anything
(ring). He's... (answers phone)

"NICK: 'Nick Danger, third eye.'

"CALLER: 'I want to order a pizza to go and no anchovies.'

"NICK: 'No anchovies? You've got the wrong man. I spell my name Danger!'
(HANGS UP).

"CALLER: 'What?'"

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 25 19:34:09 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:34:09 -0400
Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:09:48 -0700, Dave Wilton  wrote:

>> The 1935 film _Bordertown_ (with Paul Muni and Betet Davis - fine
>> period performances) is partially set in L.A.  My attention was
>> caught by the fact that a snooty villain pronounced it with a  /
>> g /  rather than the now universal / J /  (if I may use that
>> ad-hoc symbol).
>>
>> The quasi-Spanish origin of the pronunciation isn't the question.
>> (The actor was clearly using an English pronunciation and not
>> trying consciously to imitate Spanish.)
>>
>> To me it sounded bizarre, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it in
>> other old movies. The question is how widespread was this, and
>> when did it go away ?
>
>The narrator on Firesign Theater's "The Further Adventures of Nick
>Danger" (the flip side of the 1969 album "How Can You Be In Two Places
>At Once When You're Not Anywhere At All") uses the / g / pronunciation.
>He's clearly imitating the style of a 1930s radio serial and part of the
>conceit is that the pronunciation is no longer current (but still
>recognizeable, albeit humorously, to a 1969 audience) [...]

Anjelica Huston used the /g/ pronunciation in _The Grifters_ (1990), which
was a nice neo-noir anachronism. And former the rocker Frank Black (once
and future lead singer of The Pixies) has a tune called "Los Angeles":

"I hear them saying [lOs &Ng at l@s]
In all the black and white movies
And if you think they star-spangled us
How come we say [lOs &ndZ at l@s]?"

Coby (Jacob) Lubliner had this to say in a 2002 sci.lang thread:

----------
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/e79449520dcaa810
I lived there in the 50s, and at the time people couldn't even agree
on how to pronounce "Los Angeles"  -- whether the  ought to be
[g] (as Mayor Bowron pronounced it) or [dZ], and whether the final
syllable was [li:z] or [l at s].  It took a City Council resolution to
establish [lO's&ndZ at l@s] as the norm; but still many people, not
only Arlo Guthrie and Chicano activists, pay no heed.
----------

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 25 19:36:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:36:46 -0700
Subject: "all the faster'
Message-ID: 

This is how prescriptivism works. At an impressionable age you're told sternly how bad a feature is. Then - if you're one of the few in English class actually paying attention - you can go through life feeling quietly superior to those who hadn't gotten the word.

Thank you, Alison, for your brave - if terribly misguided - stand.

JL

sagehen  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: "all the faster'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no surprise,
>since I was told in junior high English that it was at least as revolting
>as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or written on pain of lofty
>disdain.
>
>I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>
>1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the
>faster this Model T will go?
>
>In other words, "as fast as."
>
>How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ? Is
>there a syntactician in the house ? (Goak.)
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~

This doesn't really seem objectionable to me. It assumes, reasonably, that
there is a limit to the speed that the Model T can obtain, and is asking
where in the remaining range above the present speed it is now; has it
exhausted that range?. "How much faster can it go?" in other words.
A. Murie

~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sat Jun 25 19:50:03 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:50:03 -0700
Subject: Borg Sighting
Message-ID: 

The Borg are a people in Star Trek: The Next Generation who incorporate new
technologies and biological beings that they meet. The Borg are ruthless in
abducting beings and stealing technologies once they make up their
collective mind. More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg.

Here's a citation for Borg in today's Seattle Times, comparing Microsoft to
the Borg:

Saturday, June 25, 2005
RSS delivery system wins over Microsoft
By Kim Peterson 

"What you've proved to us today is once again, you are establishing
Microsoft as the standards-setting organization," said Bob Wyman, co-founder
of PubSub, a New York-based service that tracks online content for users.
"Why isn't Microsoft acting like it is not a Borg instead of continuing to
be a Borg?"

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 25 20:21:18 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:21:18 -0400
Subject: "all the faster'
In-Reply-To: <20050625193646.29084.qmail@web53913.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>This is how prescriptivism works. At an impressionable age you're told
>sternly how bad a feature is. Then - if you're one of the few in English
>class actually paying attention - you can go through life feeling quietly
>superior to those who hadn't gotten the word.
>
>Thank you, Alison, for your brave - if terribly misguided - stand.
>
>JL

~~~~~~~~~~
Aw, shucks!
Is this where I get up and publicly proclaim my conversion experience from
past prescriptivistic intransigence to broad-minded benevolence?
Hallelujah!
AM
-----------------------------

>>OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no surprise,
>>since I was told in junior high English that it was at least as revolting
>>as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or written on pain of lofty
>>disdain.
>>
>>I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>>
>>1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the
>>faster this Model T will go?
>>
>>In other words, "as fast as."
>>
>>How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ? Is
>>there a syntactician in the house ? (Goak.)
>>
>>JL
>~~~~~~~~
>
>This doesn't really seem objectionable to me. It assumes, reasonably, that
>there is a limit to the speed that the Model T can obtain, and is asking
>where in the remaining range above the present speed it is now; has it
>exhausted that range?. "How much faster can it go?" in other words.
>A. Murie

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Jun 25 20:55:20 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:55:20 +0100
Subject: making it across the pond?
In-Reply-To: <20050623233037.31888.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Jonathan Lighter wrote about "dog's breakfast":

> I've seen it in recent U.S usage, but I think it's still a novelty
> here, confined to high-toned journalists looking for "new"
> expressions.

Sorry to be late with comments, but I've only just got back - and
recovered - from a brief holiday in a baking hot Bruges.

I would have agreed that this is certainly a British expression,
though the purported origin from the Phrase Finder sounds suspicious,
since there's the related "dog's dinner" and even "pig's breakfast".
These support my own assumption that the allusion is more to the kind
of miscellaneous mixed-up food items that you might get in a dog's
bowl than to vomit.

Newspaperarchive.com has a number of US citations going back to 1948,
which imply that it has had a comparatively long-term and continuing
circulation in the US without its ever becoming widely known. Two of
them have the extended form "about as mixed up as a dog's breakfast",
which may confirm my impression of the origin of the term. That form
doesn't appear much, if at all, in British English; it may indicate
American writers felt they needed to make its origin clearer to their
readers, or at least record what they thought the origin was.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 25 21:22:08 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:22:08 EDT
Subject: Pignic
Message-ID: 

PIGNIC--4,060 Google hits, 271 Google Groups hits
...
I don't have Factiva handy. Any thoughts on "pignic"? Is Wavy Gravy
responsible for this? Is it OED or HDAS worthy?
...
Barry "No pork on my fork" Popik
...
...
_Pignic Central_
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=6&q=http://www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php&e=912)
A Pignic is basically a casual gathering of  guinea pig enthusiasts, often
with fun and ... If you know of a  Pignic in your area that's not listed below,
...
www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php - 39k -  _Cached_
(http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:OptatARC_OMJ:www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php+pignic&hl=e
n&start=6&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php)

Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Benjamin Barrett
> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:50 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Borg Sighting
>
> Here's a citation for Borg in today's Seattle Times, comparing
> Microsoft to
> the Borg:
>
> Saturday, June 25, 2005

It's a fairly common usage. Here's one going back to 1997:

"Despite the cool virtual-reality gadgets available in the TechZone wing
(sponsored by Seattle computer mega-giant, Microsoft, frequently referred to
by locals as The Borg), Seattle's science center is much like Vancouver's -
scientific principles don't change with the currency." Seattle Times, 17 Aug
1997.

Other companies are also the target of such comparisons. I used to work for
a government contractor, SAIC, that was commonly called "the Borg" by our
government clients because of the companies practice of hiring
("assimilating") clients who were retiring from government service.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sat Jun 25 22:43:15 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:43:15 -0700
Subject: Borg Sighting
In-Reply-To: <200506251826.1dMj6N5wN3Nl34a0@mx-herron.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

Thank you. I'm now on board with the Seattle use of Borg! -B in
Seattle

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton

> It's a fairly common usage. Here's one going back to 1997:
>
> "Despite the cool virtual-reality gadgets available in the
> TechZone wing (sponsored by Seattle computer mega-giant,
> Microsoft, frequently referred to by locals as The Borg),
> Seattle's science center is much like Vancouver's -
> scientific principles don't change with the currency."
> Seattle Times, 17 Aug 1997.
>
> Other companies are also the target of such comparisons. I
> used to work for a government contractor, SAIC, that was
> commonly called "the Borg" by our government clients because
> of the companies practice of hiring
> ("assimilating") clients who were retiring from government service.

From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 25 22:58:57 2005
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Your Name)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:58:57 -0400
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

I'm not at my home computer, so can't call up older messages, but I
wonder if anyone has brought up those wonderful movies of the 30's-
40's with the Dead End Kids and The Bowery Boys?  I seem to remember a
kid named "Spaz."  I can't remember now if he WAS a spaz, but I'm sure
others can track this down.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: Benjamin Zimmer 
Date: Saturday, June 25, 2005 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.

> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
>  wrote:
>
> >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of
> Manhattan in
> >the fall of 1959. At least among us kids.  I remember because I'd
> never>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>
> I posted the Russell Baker quote on the alt.usage.english
> newsgroup, and
> it elicited this response from Joe Fineman (Caltech class of '58):
>
> -----
> http://groups-
> beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/bded7888abdc8c8c
> Here, FWIW, is the entry in my journal (1956) from a section on the
> language of Caltech students:
>
>  SPAZ, n.R  (shortened from _spastic_)  1. _Obsolete._  A person
>  lacking in the common social skills & virtues.  See TWITCH.  2.
>  To surprise a person in a way that causes him to take some time to
>  react. v.R
>
> The "R" means "regional or national" -- i.e., I was aware at the time
> that this was not just Caltech slang.  The noun was, of course,
> obsolete only at Caltech, where it had been replaced by the allusive
> "twitch".
> -----
>
> Thank goodness for college kids keeping slang journals! It's
> fascinatingthat "spaz" was already considered obsolete as early as
> 1956 at Caltech.
> Might this suggest a West Coast origin (or at least early
> popularization)?While Manhattanites were picking up "spaz", the
> Caltechies had already
> moved on to "twitch". Any other college reminiscences?
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 23:10:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:10:51 -0400
Subject: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4j0nj2@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 25, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> On Jun 24, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>>> Subject:      spade cat (was Re: "like" and "as if")
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> At 12:38 AM -0400 6/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>> On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:31 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>> Mid-sentential examples from _Mojo Navigator_:
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> At ten o'clock they started to serve drinks and the older crowd
>>>>> would
>>>>> come
>>>>> in, and like they=92re white-collar drunks and all...a bad scene.
>>>>> ("Big Brother & the Holding Company", Sep. 1966)
>>>>> -----
>>>>> The only other blues clubs are in the South Side, and like you just
>>>>> don't
>>>>> go down there unless you have a spade
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, Richie Havens is the only spade that I've ever heard use the
>>>> word
>>>> "spade" to mean "spade": "I bet you didn't know that there were
>>>> spade
>>>> cowboys, did you?" A rhetorical question asked on a TV show as he
>>>> was
>>>> about to sing some Western ditty.
>>>>
>>>> Then there was the time that I asked a friend at UC Davis please not
>>>> to
>>>> refer to spades as "spades," especially when she was talking to a
>>>> spade, at least. She replied that, at her no-doubt lily-white high
>>>> school in her no-doubt lily-white town somewhere in the
>>>> Northern-California wine country, it was customary to refer to
>>>> spades
>>>> as "spades." After pondering this for over 35 years, I still haven't
>>>> been able to winkle out the logical connection between my request
>>>> and
>>>> her reply to it. Clearly, talking to her was like talking to a wall,
>>>> to
>>>> coin a phrase. She just didn't get it.
>>>>
>>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>> Which brings me to one of my favorite orthographic eggcorns,
>>> preserved from October 1995 when we were in the kitty-cat market.
>>> This classified ad appeared in our local throw-away weekly:
>>>
>>>       SR. CITIZEN KITTY needs loving home, spade, all shots, healthy.
>>>       I've been a good kitty & promise to be a purr-fect pet.  Please
>>>       call ____.  Love Kitty.
>>>
>>> There are 130 google hits for "spade cat", and while some have the
>>> hipster meaning in mind--
>>>
>>> A spade cat from Port Washington joined the Quarry and tried to tell
>>> us what was on his mind. He was a fairly good singer...
>>>
>>> If Barton had been a spade cat they would have thrown his ass into
>>> jail before you could say Bull Conners.
>>>
>>> --many clearly involve the eggcornish reading:
>>>
>>> Like the difference between the behavior of a spade cat and an
>>> unspade
>>> cat.
>>>
>>> I still cant quite beleive that a portrayal of a recently spade cat
>>> could be such great comedy material
>>>
>>> My female spade cat has a problem peeing on my bath rugs.
>>>
>>> (Actually, after coping recently with a (male) cat who had *no*
>>> problem peeing on my bath rugs, I wouldn't complain about a cat
>>> having a problem doing so.)
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>
>> We have two kitties. Given that they're black females, I guess you
>> could say that they're both spayed and spade! 
>>
>> -Wilson
>
> We ended up choosing two female kittens from a different litter
> advertised in the same paper, a tabby and an an all-black who will
> turn 10 this summer, and my reaction was that we could save some
> money at the vets' because they would only need to operate on one of
> the two kitties--the other one was spade when we got her.
>

Nice return, Larry! ;-)

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 23:41:55 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:41:55 -0400
Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4inp5d@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 25, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The 1935 film _Bordertown_ (with Paul Muni and Betet Davis - fine
> period performances) is partially set in L.A.  My attention was caught
> by the fact that a snooty villain pronounced it with a  / g /  rather
> than the now universal / J /  (if I may use that ad-hoc symbol).
>
> The quasi-Spanish origin of the pronunciation isn't the question. (The
> actor was clearly using an English pronunciation and not trying
> consciously to imitate Spanish.)
>
> To me it sounded bizarre, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other
> old movies. The question is how widespread was this, and when did it
> go away ?
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>

I recall that Cecil, an old family friend from down home in Texas who
"ran on the road" - the Santa Fe's "Chief" and its "Superchief" - using
the hard "g" pronunciation back in the '40's. I didn't really know what
the "proper" pronunciation was till after I had moved from St. Louis
and lived in L.A. for a while. However, the version with the hard "g"
is so familiar that I consider either pronunciation to be "correct,"
though I use /dZ/. But, once that you're in L.A., the only proper
pronunciation of San Pedro in English is "San PEE-dro" and not "San
PAY-dro."

Now, if only I could bring to justice those who say "Loss Vegas,"
however apt it may be!

-Wilson Gray

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 25 23:46:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:46:15 -0700
Subject: spaz(z), n.
Message-ID: 

I don't recall any "Spazz" among the Dead End Kids, Bowery Boys, or East Side Kids, and a Boolean search of Google (with both "spazz" and "spaz") came up empty.

JL

Your Name  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Your Name
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not at my home computer, so can't call up older messages, but I
wonder if anyone has brought up those wonderful movies of the 30's-
40's with the Dead End Kids and The Bowery Boys? I seem to remember a
kid named "Spaz." I can't remember now if he WAS a spaz, but I'm sure
others can track this down.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: Benjamin Zimmer
Date: Saturday, June 25, 2005 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: spaz(z), n.

> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:57:28 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
> >"Spazz," n. & v., were both in daily use on the West Side of
> Manhattan in
> >the fall of 1959. At least among us kids. I remember because I'd
> never>heard them before. The same was true of "retard," n.
>
> I posted the Russell Baker quote on the alt.usage.english
> newsgroup, and
> it elicited this response from Joe Fineman (Caltech class of '58):
>
> -----
> http://groups-
> beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/bded7888abdc8c8c
> Here, FWIW, is the entry in my journal (1956) from a section on the
> language of Caltech students:
>
> SPAZ, n.R (shortened from _spastic_) 1. _Obsolete._ A person
> lacking in the common social skills & virtues. See TWITCH. 2.
> To surprise a person in a way that causes him to take some time to
> react. v.R
>
> The "R" means "regional or national" -- i.e., I was aware at the time
> that this was not just Caltech slang. The noun was, of course,
> obsolete only at Caltech, where it had been replaced by the allusive
> "twitch".
> -----
>
> Thank goodness for college kids keeping slang journals! It's
> fascinatingthat "spaz" was already considered obsolete as early as
> 1956 at Caltech.
> Might this suggest a West Coast origin (or at least early
> popularization)?While Manhattanites were picking up "spaz", the
> Caltechies had already
> moved on to "twitch". Any other college reminiscences?
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 25 23:51:58 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:51:58 -0400
Subject: "all the faster'
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4j7hi8@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 25, 2005, at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "all the faster'
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This is how prescriptivism works. At an impressionable age you're told
> sternly how bad a feature is. Then - if you're one of the few in
> English class actually paying attention - you can go through life
> feeling quietly superior to those who hadn't gotten the word.
>
> Thank you, Alison, for your brave - if terribly misguided - stand.
>
> JL
>

Is this all the better that you can do, Jon? It's a well-known truism
that there will always be five percent of any group who never get the
word. ;-)

-Wilson

>
> sagehen  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: sagehen
> Subject: Re: "all the faster'
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no
>> surprise,
>> since I was told in junior high English that it was at least as
>> revolting
>> as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or written on pain of lofty
>> disdain.
>>
>> I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>>
>> 1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the
>> faster this Model T will go?
>>
>> In other words, "as fast as."
>>
>> How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ? Is
>> there a syntactician in the house ? (Goak.)
>>
>> JL
> ~~~~~~~~
>
> This doesn't really seem objectionable to me. It assumes, reasonably,
> that
> there is a limit to the speed that the Model T can obtain, and is
> asking
> where in the remaining range above the present speed it is now; has it
> exhausted that range?. "How much faster can it go?" in other words.
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 26 00:53:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:53:00 -0700
Subject: "all the faster'
Message-ID: 

I thought that was eighty-five per cent [sic].

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "all the faster'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 25, 2005, at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "all the faster'
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This is how prescriptivism works. At an impressionable age you're told
> sternly how bad a feature is. Then - if you're one of the few in
> English class actually paying attention - you can go through life
> feeling quietly superior to those who hadn't gotten the word.
>
> Thank you, Alison, for your brave - if terribly misguided - stand.
>
> JL
>

Is this all the better that you can do, Jon? It's a well-known truism
that there will always be five percent of any group who never get the
word. ;-)

-Wilson

>
> sagehen wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: sagehen
> Subject: Re: "all the faster'
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no
>> surprise,
>> since I was told in junior high English that it was at least as
>> revolting
>> as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or written on pain of lofty
>> disdain.
>>
>> I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>>
>> 1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all the
>> faster this Model T will go?
>>
>> In other words, "as fast as."
>>
>> How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ? Is
>> there a syntactician in the house ? (Goak.)
>>
>> JL
> ~~~~~~~~
>
> This doesn't really seem objectionable to me. It assumes, reasonably,
> that
> there is a limit to the speed that the Model T can obtain, and is
> asking
> where in the remaining range above the present speed it is now; has it
> exhausted that range?. "How much faster can it go?" in other words.
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 26 00:57:11 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:57:11 EDT
Subject: Flipping; FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate); Lindy Hop
Message-ID: 

_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1061/flip-tax_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1061/flip-tax)
_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1062/bubbles-are-for-bathtubs-housing-bubbl
e_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1062/bubbles-are-for-bathtubs-housing-bubble)
_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1063/fire-finance-insurance-real-estate-ice
-intellectual-cultural-educational_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1063/fire-finance-insurance-real-estate-ice-intellectual-cultural-educational)
_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1064/lindy-hop_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1064/lindy-hop)
...
...
The above are some of the articles written in the last 24-hours. Does  anyone
have a better FIRE (I don't have the online WSJ handy here at home with  my
SABR subscription to ProQuest)? Does OED not have the co-op/condo "flip"  at
all? Why do several web sites insist that "Lindy hop" pre-dates Lindy's 1927
hop??
...
My web page is not yet one year old. Just after midnight tonight, it will
officially record its first half-million hits. Special thank you to Grant
Barrett for all his help, and Orion Montoya, too, wherever he went.
...
_http://www.doubletongued.org/WEBALIZER_REPORTS/barrypopik.com_
(http://www.doubletongued.org/WEBALIZER_REPORTS/barrypopik.com)

From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 26 01:50:23 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:50:23 EDT
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today:  "I was as busy as jumper cables
at a Peurto Rican wedding".

Has anybody heard this comparison before?

Does anybody understand the allusion?

      - Jim Landau

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 26 01:59:13 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:59:13 -0400
Subject: frog strangler
In-Reply-To: <20050625040017.E0060B2514@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

James C Stalker  wrote:
   >>>>>

I'm sorry.  This had to be a toad strangler.  Frogs live in water.  Toads
don't.  Actually, I always heard toad strangler.

 <<<<<

Frogs live in and near water, but they breathe air. Their eggs hatch
underwater and the tadpoles have gills, but in the metamorphosis to the
adult stage they lose them.

Actually, your last sentence is the one that counts. :-)

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 26 02:07:33 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:07:33 -0400
Subject: Camels (wandering way OT... well,
 they do that if you let them)
In-Reply-To: <20050625040017.E0060B2514@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Wilson replies to my rant:
   >>>>>
Mirabile dictu, it has never been my misfortune to have had to deal
with any aspect of cameldom., potnuh.
 <<<<<

>From my ever-growing list of things to read, as described by the person
recommending this to me:

 lovely series of historical-adventure novels about the captain of an
Austrian submarine. Titles:
 -A Sailor of Austria (covers most of WWI, including his time in submarines)
pub. 1991
 -The Emperor's Coloured Coat (prior to WWI and the first year or so,
including how he learns to fly)
 -The Two-Headed Eagle (his time in the Austro-Hungarian air corps during
WWI over the Italian front)
 -Tomorrow the World (the protagonist's childhood, youth at the A-H Imperial
Naval Academy, and first voyage in the broken-down sailing warship
_Windischgraetz_)
    They're very engaging novels, IMNSHO, and the author's familiarity with
Eastern and Central Europe helps keep them authentic.  They include the
immortal line:
 "I have lived over a century now, and I can say with certainty that nobody
who has not shared the fore-cabin of a submarine with a live camel knows
what misery is."  (Otto Prohaska has to take a camel from North Africa to
Europe aboard his submarine-- it's a LOOONG story about just why he did)

   >>>>>
 But my point wasn't that smoking is good, if only one is able to restrict
oneself to cigarettes made from fragrant tobacco. Rather, my point was that
the use of a mixture of tobaccoes with an extremely pleasant fragrance was,
for me, the aspect of cigarettes that caused me to decide, while I was still
in short pants, long before I had formed the concept of looking or being
cool, that I was going to become a smoker.
 <<<<<

I confess, I got carried away. I do kind of like the smell of some tobaccos,
when they are sitting there quietly and not burning.

 >>>
I have full empathy for your point of view. Given that I was a smoker
for more years than your late father lived, I realize that I'm lucky
still to be alive and relatively well.
 <<<
And I'm glad that you are!

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 26 02:38:18 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:38:18 -0400
Subject: Camels (wandering way OT... well,
 they do that if you let them)
In-Reply-To: <42be0df2.157076ad.39cd.31ebSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 6/25/05, Mark A. Mandel  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re : Camels (wandering way OT... well, they do that if you let
>               them)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Wilson replies to my rant:
>    >>>>>
> Mirabile dictu, it has never been my misfortune to have had to deal
> with any aspect of cameldom., potnuh.
>  <<<<<
>
> From my ever-growing list of things to read, as described by the person
> recommending this to me:
>
>  lovely series of historical-adventure novels about the captain of an
> Austrian submarine. Titles:
>  -A Sailor of Austria (covers most of WWI, including his time in submarines)
> pub. 1991
>  -The Emperor's Coloured Coat (prior to WWI and the first year or so,
> including how he learns to fly)
>  -The Two-Headed Eagle (his time in the Austro-Hungarian air corps during
> WWI over the Italian front)
>  -Tomorrow the World (the protagonist's childhood, youth at the A-H Imperial
> Naval Academy, and first voyage in the broken-down sailing warship
> _Windischgraetz_)
>     They're very engaging novels, IMNSHO, and the author's familiarity with
> Eastern and Central Europe helps keep them authentic.  They include the
> immortal line:
>  "I have lived over a century now, and I can say with certainty that nobody
> who has not shared the fore-cabin of a submarine with a live camel knows
> what misery is."  (Otto Prohaska has to take a camel from North Africa to
> Europe aboard his submarine-- it's a LOOONG story about just why he did)
>
>    >>>>>
>  But my point wasn't that smoking is good, if only one is able to restrict
> oneself to cigarettes made from fragrant tobacco. Rather, my point was that
> the use of a mixture of tobaccoes with an extremely pleasant fragrance was,
> for me, the aspect of cigarettes that caused me to decide, while I was still
> in short pants, long before I had formed the concept of looking or being
> cool, that I was going to become a smoker.
>  <<<<<
>
> I confess, I got carried away. I do kind of like the smell of some tobaccos,
> when they are sitting there quietly and not burning.
>
>  >>>
> I have full empathy for your point of view. Given that I was a smoker
> for more years than your late father lived, I realize that I'm lucky
> still to be alive and relatively well.
>  <<<
> And I'm glad that you are!
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

--

In the immortal words of Barretta, "Me you, too!"

-Wilson Gray

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 26 02:44:02 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:44:02 -0400
Subject: Pignic
In-Reply-To: <20a.3b9dbf3.2fef2500@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 5:22 PM -0400 6/25/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>PIGNIC--4,060 Google hits, 271 Google Groups hits
>...
>I don't have Factiva handy. Any thoughts on "pignic"? Is Wavy Gravy
>responsible for this? Is it OED or HDAS worthy?
>...
>Barry "No pork on my fork" Popik
>...

I've only ever heard it used among roast pig barbecue enthusiasts, as
in the last cited example, not celebrants of (I assume living) guinea
pigs.

Larry ("No pork on my fork at the moment, but it's not a principled
decision") Horn

>...
>_Pignic Central_
>(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=6&q=http://www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php&e=912)
>A Pignic is basically a casual gathering of  guinea pig enthusiasts, often
>with fun and ... If you know of a  Pignic in your area that's not
>listed below,
>...
>www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php - 39k -  _Cached_
>(http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:OptatARC_OMJ:www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php+pignic&hl=e
>n&start=6&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
>(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.cavymadness.com/pigniccentral.php)
>_Wavy Gravy +|+ Wavy G +|+ A Remarkable Clown!  +|+ Hog Farm PigNic_
>(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.pernel.com/wavyg_bio.html&e=912)
>We have just  heard that the renowned HOG FARM PIGNIC will return - At a
>later  date!
>... Born: Hugh Romney, May 15, 1936, East Greenbush,  New York. ...
>www.pernel.com/wavyg_bio.html - 44k - _Cached_
>(http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:BUbJWu7So9gJ:www.pernel.com/wavyg_bio.html+pignic+"new+york"&hl=en&star
>t=2&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
>(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=related:www.pernel.com/wavyg_bio.html)
>
>...
>...
>     _Richmond  BBQ Contest 8/30 & 8/31_
>(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.food.barbecue/browse_thread/thread/5c4a6a1ad11e8126/165f1a2c38e00c8e?q=pign
>ic&rnum=10&hl=en#165f1a2c38e00c8e)
>... The "other" shindig  I mentioned is much more fun - totally non-corporate
>and a really
>fine  time - it's the annual HIGH ON THE HOG BBQ & MUSIC PIGNIC ( 27  years
>...
>_alt.food.barbecue_
>(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.food.barbecue?hl=en)  - Sep
>6  2003, 9:46 pm by CafeMojo - 2 messages - 2 authors
>The "other" shindig I mentioned is much more fun - totally non-corporate  and
>a
>really fine time - it's the annual HIGH ON THE HOG BBQ & MUSIC PIGNIC
>( 27 years  running now! )

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 26 03:11:05 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:11:05 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: <1fc.45b16c0.2fef63df@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today:  "I was as busy as jumper cables
>at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>
>Has anybody heard this comparison before?

I haven't.

>Does anybody understand the allusion?

I think I do. The jumper cables will be expected to be busy wherever a lot
of cars need assistance in starting, i.e., wherever a lot of unreliable
cars (presumably old cars and/or cars in poor condition) are parked.

-- Doug Wilson

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 26 04:41:28 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:41:28 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
Wedding."  Heard in California.  From a Texan.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Jumper cables

> >I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today:  "I was as busy as jumper
> >cables
>>at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>>
>>Has anybody heard this comparison before?
>
> I haven't.
>
>>Does anybody understand the allusion?
>
> I think I do. The jumper cables will be expected to be busy wherever a lot
> of cars need assistance in starting, i.e., wherever a lot of unreliable
> cars (presumably old cars and/or cars in poor condition) are parked.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 26 05:01:46 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 01:01:46 EDT
Subject: "Tragedy is when I cut my finger" (Mel Brooks); Broadway Brownies
Message-ID: 

COMEDY + TRAGEDY + FINGER + YOU + I--208,000 Google hits, 13,000 Google
Groups hits
...
...
20 June 2005, National Review, pg. 22, col. 2:
MEL BROOKS once offered these succinct definitions of tragedy and comedy:
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall down an open  manhole."
...
...
OK, so I wasn't the poster boy on the cover of the National Review this
week. William F. Buckley, betcha he'd never be crazy enough to get involved in
New York City politics. But back to the Fred Shapiro-worthy quote.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is  when you fall into an ..._
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://blogs.blogosphere.ca/mig14&e=912)
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when  you fall into an open sewer
and
... Go here if you want  to read it. My favourite is: I don't know what your
...
blogs.blogosphere.ca/mig14 - 39k - Jun 24, 2005 - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hsdVxm1N0LoJ:blogs.blogosphere.ca/mig14+comedy+tragedy+fing
er+you+i+&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:blogs.blogosphere.ca/mig14)
...
_Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is  when you fall into an ..._
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=3&q=http://www.1-famous-quotes.com/quotes/4716
4.html&e=912)
By Movie.  Contact Us. Select a Topic for Your Quote. Tragedy is when I cut
my
finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer  and die. -- Mel Brooks ...
www.1-famous-quotes.com/quotes/47164.html - 14k - Jun 24, 2005 - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:gbKpA8Ch_AYJ:www.1-famous-quotes.com/quotes/
47164.html+comedy+tragedy+finger+you+i+&hl=en&start=3&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar
pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.1-famous-quotes.com/quotes/47164.html)
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
    Brian  Oplinger Jun 9 1993,  4:26 pm
    Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies  From: oplin... at minerva.crd.ge.com (Brian
Oplinger)    Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1993 20:11:24 GMT  Local: Wed,Jun  9 1993 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: Help needed on a quote from Groucho M

A bunch of folks arrive at:
>>>"Tragedy is if I cut my finger.
>>>Comedy is if I walk into an  open sewer and die."
>>>(according to the Macmillan Dictionary of  Quotations, he said this  in
New
>>>Yorker magazine, 30 Oct. 1978.)
Should be
>>"Tragedy is  if I cut my finger.
>>Comedy is if  YOU walk into an open  sewer and die."

But this is on the 2000 year old man stuff Mel  Brooks and Carl Reiner
did in the 60's. So the Macmillan Dictionary is wrong  by at least 8
years and my guess is more like 18. I have a 3 LP (vinyl) set  of the
improv work they did and I'm sure its much older than 1978.
--
brian
oplin... at ra.crd.ge.com

...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
..._Funny  is money; 2,000-year-old, 48-year-old Mel Brooks: 'Comedy is not
surprise. It's  knowing.' _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=76544256&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1119761524&
clientId=65882)
By Herbert Gold. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 30,
1975. p. 179 (4 pages)
Last page:
"Tragedy is if I'll cut a finger, I go to Mount Sinai, get an X-ray, have  to
change bandages. Comedy is if you walk into an open sewer and die." (In
almost these words, the observation also appears in one of his recorded
interviews.)
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
BROADWAY BROWNIES
...
Any idea why they're called "Broadway Brownies"? Do they stop the show?
...
...
_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1066/broadway-brownie_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1066/broadway-brownie)

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Jun 26 05:18:49 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:18:49 -0500
Subject: "Tragedy is when I cut my finger" (Mel Brooks); Broadway
 Brownies
Message-ID: 

> William F. Buckley, betcha he'd never be crazy enough to get involved in
>New York City politics.

Surely Barry is pulling our legs.

Very Dark Horse In New York By JOHN LEO
New York Times; Sep 5, 1965; pg. SM8
"William F. Buckley Jr. is, in his own words, a "radical conservative running for 
Mayor [of NYC] "half in fun."  . . .  Asked what he would do if elected, he said,
"I'd demand a recount." "

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 26 05:20:38 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 01:20:38 EDT
Subject: "Tragedy is when I cut my finger" (Mel Brooks); Broadway
 Brownies
Message-ID: 

I LOVE THAT QUOTE!

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 26 06:17:43 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 02:17:43 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

Jim Landau:
>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today:  "I was as busy as jumper
>cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".

Sam Clements:
>I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>Wedding."  Heard in California.  From a Texan.

The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:

-----
Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
-----

I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.

--Ben Zimmer

From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 26 11:07:36 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:07:36 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: <1fc.45b16c0.2fef63df@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

It is pan-ethnic; I've heard it for at least four groups. It refers
to an event where lots of people drive, but the group is stigmatized
as having old, out-of-repair cars (a common slam on groups perceived
as poor); when they are ready to leave the event, they must all get a
jump to start their cars.

dInIs

>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today:  "I was as busy as jumper cables
>at a Peurto Rican wedding".
>
>Has anybody heard this comparison before?
>
>Does anybody understand the allusion?
>
>       - Jim Landau

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 26 14:55:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:55:35 -0700
Subject: Camels (wandering way OT... well,
 they do that if you let them)
Message-ID: 

I didn't think it was *that* bad....

JL

"Mark A. Mandel"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
Subject: Re : Camels (wandering way OT... well, they do that if you let
them)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wilson replies to my rant:
>>>>>
Mirabile dictu, it has never been my misfortune to have had to deal
with any aspect of cameldom., potnuh.
<<<<<

>From my ever-growing list of things to read, as described by the person
recommending this to me:

lovely series of historical-adventure novels about the captain of an
Austrian submarine. Titles:
-A Sailor of Austria (covers most of WWI, including his time in submarines)
pub. 1991
-The Emperor's Coloured Coat (prior to WWI and the first year or so,
including how he learns to fly)
-The Two-Headed Eagle (his time in the Austro-Hungarian air corps during
WWI over the Italian front)
-Tomorrow the World (the protagonist's childhood, youth at the A-H Imperial
Naval Academy, and first voyage in the broken-down sailing warship
_Windischgraetz_)
They're very engaging novels, IMNSHO, and the author's familiarity with
Eastern and Central Europe helps keep them authentic. They include the
immortal line:
"I have lived over a century now, and I can say with certainty that nobody
who has not shared the fore-cabin of a submarine with a live camel knows
what misery is." (Otto Prohaska has to take a camel from North Africa to
Europe aboard his submarine-- it's a LOOONG story about just why he did)

>>>>>
But my point wasn't that smoking is good, if only one is able to restrict
oneself to cigarettes made from fragrant tobacco. Rather, my point was that
the use of a mixture of tobaccoes with an extremely pleasant fragrance was,
for me, the aspect of cigarettes that caused me to decide, while I was still
in short pants, long before I had formed the concept of looking or being
cool, that I was going to become a smoker.
<<<<<

I confess, I got carried away. I do kind of like the smell of some tobaccos,
when they are sitting there quietly and not burning.

>>>
I have full empathy for your point of view. Given that I was a smoker
for more years than your late father lived, I realize that I'm lucky
still to be alive and relatively well.
<<<
And I'm glad that you are!

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 26 15:31:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 08:31:25 -0700
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement highway."  My interlocutor had learned it from his father.

"He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).

"Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in several WWII novels published in the '50s.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: Jumper cables
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Landau:
>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".

Sam Clements:
>I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.

The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:

-----
Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
-----

I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 26 16:29:04 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:29:04 -0400
Subject: shahbaz
In-Reply-To: <20050626040004.8FF7BB24F5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Chris Waigl hypotheses a generalization from
 - Shabazz --> *Shabbaz (Larry)  **
 - *"assymetry" or *"assymetric" (ibid.)
 - *"parralel" (Chris himself)  ***
 >>>
People apparently like to select the first consonant that lends itself to
doubling.
 <<<

Could be. That would also cover
 - the common * (googits:
about 114,000, vs. about 1,860,000 for "disappoint", for 6% of the total)
and
 - * (181,000 vs. 11,300,000, 1.6%)
 - but not * (googits: about 91,700, plus -s ,about
10,600; -ism, about 3440; -isms, about 132; -ogram, about 1160; -ograms,
about 303).

(I'm taking that last case further and will let you know if I find anything
worth mentioning... or, I guess, for honesty's sake, even if I don't.)

I'm sure that phonology functions in here too, as people try to
apply the usually reliable English spelling rule that a lax ("short") vowel
is followed by two consonant letters, often created orthographically by
doubling a consonant letter.

** But the man was a Muslim! Maybe that's why he misspelled "Shabbas".

*** Italo Calvino, somewhere in _Cosmicomics_, has his characters doing
something like sliding down the parallel "l"s of "parallel", which creates a
useful mnemonic.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 26 16:32:47 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:32:47 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: <20050626153125.67110.qmail@web53912.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
>highway."  My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>
>"He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a one-armed
>paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl Sandburg's _The
>People, Yes_ (1936).
>
>"Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
>several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>
>JL
> ~~~~~~~~~~
"Busier'n a one-armed paperhanger," without further elaboration, was a
common expression during my childhood.
Since Adolph Hitler (a k a  "Shickelgruber") was rumored to have been a
paperhanger at one point,  "paperhanger" itself became a derisive term.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 26 17:00:55 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:00:55 -0400
Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
In-Reply-To: <20050626040004.8FF7BB24F5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Jonathan Lighter  sez:
>>>
The 1935 film _Bordertown_ (with Paul Muni and [Bette] Davis - fine period
performances) is partially set in L.A.  My attention was caught by the fact
that a snooty villain pronounced it with a  / g /  rather than the now
universal / J /  (if I may use that ad-hoc symbol).

The quasi-Spanish origin of the pronunciation isn't the question. (The actor
was clearly using an English pronunciation and not trying consciously to
imitate Spanish.)

To me it sounded bizarre, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it in other old
movies. The question is how widespread was this, and when did it go away ?
<<<

Funny you should mention this just now. Just last night I was reminiscing to
my wife about the time a number of years ago when this same question came
up, either here or on the LINGUIST List. I hypothesized then that it had
come from a Spanish pronunciation with a velarized /n/: /lOsaNxElEs/.
English-speakers would hear [N + homorganic obstruent] where the orthography
has , and borrow it into English phonology as /Ng/. QEF.

Does anyone remember where this exchange occurred?

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 26 17:11:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:11:23 -0700
Subject: shahbaz
Message-ID: 

"Googits"!  Me use!

JL

"Mark A. Mandel"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
Subject: Re: shahbaz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris Waigl hypotheses a generalization from
- Shabazz --> *Shabbaz (Larry) **
- *"assymetry" or *"assymetric" (ibid.)
- *"parralel" (Chris himself) ***
>>>
People apparently like to select the first consonant that lends itself to
doubling.
<<<

Could be. That would also cover
- the common * (googits:
about 114,000, vs. about 1,860,000 for "disappoint", for 6% of the total)
and
- * (181,000 vs. 11,300,000, 1.6%)
- but not *
 (googits: about 91,700, plus -s ,about
10,600; -ism, about 3440; -isms, about 132; -ogram, about 1160; -ograms,
about 303).

(I'm taking that last case further and will let you know if I find anything
worth mentioning... or, I guess, for honesty's sake, even if I don't.)

I'm sure that phonology functions in here too, as people try to
apply the usually reliable English spelling rule that a lax ("short") vowel
is followed by two consonant letters, often created orthographically by
doubling a consonant letter.

** But the man was a Muslim! Maybe that's why he misspelled "Shabbas".

*** Italo Calvino, somewhere in _Cosmicomics_, has his characters doing
something like sliding down the parallel "l"s of "parallel", which creates a
useful mnemonic.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 26 17:39:47 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:39:47 -0400
Subject: Old pronuciation of "Los Angeles"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:00:55 -0400, Mark A. Mandel
 wrote:

>Funny you should mention this just now. Just last night I was reminiscing
>to my wife about the time a number of years ago when this same question
>came up, either here or on the LINGUIST List. I hypothesized then that it
>had come from a Spanish pronunciation with a velarized /n/: /lOsaNxElEs/.
>English-speakers would hear [N + homorganic obstruent] where the
>orthography has , and borrow it into English phonology as /Ng/. QEF.
>
>Does anyone remember where this exchange occurred?

The archive remembers.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9909E&L=ADS-L&P=R610

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun 26 17:46:42 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:46:42 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$fk1or9@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

I have a few:

"Uglier than sheep shit in shallow water"

"Uglier than Sammy Davis, Jr. eating Chinese mustard"

"Funkier than ten gallons of Get-Back"

-Wilson

On Jun 26, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: Jumper cables
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
> highway."  My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>
> "He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a
> one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl
> Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).
>
> "Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
> several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>
> JL
>
> Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: Jumper cables
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jim Landau:
>> I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>> cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>
> Sam Clements:
>> I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>> Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.
>
> The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
> newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:
>
> -----
> Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
> Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
> Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
> Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
> Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
> Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
> Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
> Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
> -----
>
> I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 26 17:58:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:58:36 -0700
Subject: "all the faster'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 25, 2005, at 10:50 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> At 8:04 AM -0700 6/25/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> OED seems not to include this common spoken construction - no
>> surprise, since I was told in junior high English that it was at
>> least as revolting as "irregardless" and must never be spoken or
>> written on pain of lofty disdain.

and since there is a proscription against the construction, it gets
an entry in MWDEU, under "all the".  MWDEU discusses two different
constructions: "all the" plus comparative adverb or adjective,
functioning as a simple intensifier ("they will like you all the
better"), which is standard written english; and "all the" plus
positive or comparative adjective/adverb, replacing written "as...
as" ("that's all the tighter I can tie it"), which seems to be spoken
and regional (and american).  on the second, MWDEU cites DARE and a
december 1953 article in American Speech.

DARE has it both with the positive degree -- "that's all the fast
this horse can run" -- said to be especially common in southern and
south midland speech, and with the comparative degree (the
construction we're discussing here), said to be especially common in
inland northern and north midland speech.  (i find the positive
examples completely beyond the pale, but who am i to deny s/smidl
speakers their syntax?)

the handbooks seem to think that "all the father/further" is
particularly common.

MWDEU had no record of it in written english, except in reports of
speech.  note than jon lighter's example (below) is from film dialogue.

>> I doubt that this ex. is particularly early, but it's a start:
>>
>> 1935 Doyle Laird & Wallace Smith _Bordertown_ (film) : Is this all
>> the faster this Model T will go?
>>
>> In other words, "as fast as."
>
> or "the fastest".  (Note that it only substitutes for "as fast as" in
> the above construction, not in e.g. "X is/drives as fast as Y".)

yes, there's a lot we don't know about the external syntax of this
construction.  i find it pretty good in questions -- it takes me a
moment to remember that some people object to "is that all the faster
(that) the car can/will go?" -- but somewhat less good in
declaratives like "that's all the faster (that) the car can/will
go".  see below for more discussion.

> Unlike listmates Geoff Nunberg and Arnold Zwicky, I'm no syntactician
> (nor do I even play one on TV),

i'm a syntactician, but i've never played one on tv.  i have played
Dr. Slang on tv (very briefly, on Columbus Qube cable, back in the
cretaceous period) and Dr. Menu Language (on several tv stations,
again very briefly, and also back in the cretaceous), but never Dr.
Syntax.  not a tremendlously sexy role, i'm afraid.

> but I'd catalogue the relevant
> construction as "all the X", where X is a comparative, not as "all
> the faster" specifically; cf. "all the better", "all the odder", "all
> the more",...

yes, of course.  in addition, the following clause appears to be part
of the construction: "that's all the faster *(that) the car will go*".

>   Of course it might be argued that these represent
> different constructions, rather than examples of the same syntactic
> process.

i find very big differences between different adverbs/adjectives.
"all the faster" and "all the further" are really good for me, but
some others are marginal at best: "is that all the bigger (that) your
dog got to be?" and (big ugh) "is that all the clearer (that) you can
write?", for instance.  this would be the hallmark of a construction
that begins with a few very specific types of examples -- maybe just
one formulaic expression -- and then spreads, often slowly, to others.

as to the comparative form of the adverb/adjective, i find
inflectional comparatives (as in the examples above) hugely better
than periphrastic comparatives: worse "is that all the more seductive
(that) you can act?" vs. better "is that all the sexier (that) you
can act?"

as to the clause that follows the adverb/adjective, it looks like a
relative clause, since it has a gap in it: "(that) the car will go
__", with a missing adverbial following the verb of the clause;
"(that) your dog got to be __", with a missing predicative following
the copula.  the relative can be a that-relative or a zero-relative,
but not (i think) a wh-relative: ??"is that all the faster which the
car can go".  these characteristics are shared by the relative
clauses of (standard) superlative constructions, as in "that's the
fastest (that) this car can/will go" vs. ??"that's the fastest which
this car can/will go".  i'd speculate that the (standard) superlative
was in fact one of the contributing constructions in the development
of this (nonstandard) comparative.

but of course comparison with "as... as" also involves a gap: " [as
fast] [as the car will go __]"  if it weren't for the "all", in fact,
the nonstandard comparative would look like a complex blend of the
nonstandard superlative with "as"-comparison (with the comparative
*form* of the adverb/adjective motivated by the semantics).

finally, all the usual examples are cleftoid, involving clauses with
a pronominal (and referential) subject "that"/"this"/"it"  and a
predicative VP with the comparative AP in it.  attempts to use these
nonstandard comparative APs in other contexts yields really weird
stuff: "he always drives all the faster (that) he can" -- though "he
always drives the fastest (that) he can" and "he always drives as
fast as he can" are both fine.  so the cleftoid structure seems to be
part of the construction too.

> The OED does have under sense 1 of the adv. use of "the":
>
> ==========
> Preceding an adjective or adverb in the comparative degree, the two
> words forming an adverbial phrase modifying the predicate.
> The radical meaning is 'in or by that', 'in or by so much', e.g. 'if
> you sow them now, they will come up the sooner'; 'he has had a
> holiday, and looks the better', to which the pleonastic 'for it' has
> been added, and the sentence at length turned into 'he looks the
> better for his holiday'
> ========
>
> but that doesn't explain the "all" before the "the".

not directly.  but it suggests a possible source.  things like "he
looks the better for his holiday in cancun" are naturally expanded
with intensifier "all" (as in "he looks all depressed").  in fact, my
guess is that this use of the comparative is particularly likely to
occur with intensifier "all" ("he looks all the better for his
holiday in cancun"); this is something that corpus mavens could
easily look at.  we'd then have three contributing constructions:
    "all the" A-comparative
    "the" A-superlative + Relative-with-A-gap
    "as" A-positive "as" Clause-with-A-gap

>> How would one describe or account for the underlying grammar here ?
>> Is there a syntactician in the house ?  (Goak.)
>
> arnold, what sayest thou?  Seems like something that Construction
> Grammarians might have looked at, but I don't have any on me to ask.

well, i've given you my thoughts on the matter. (much of the above
involves my own judgments on examples.  it's time for someone to comb
corpora and for someone to collect judgments.  there is clearly some
interesting variation going on here. and an interesting puzzle for
diachronic syntax.)   i don't recall anything published on the
construction, but i could easily have failed to notice it.  i'm
sending a copy of this to a constructional grammarian in the berkeley
tradition, in the hope that she will know if it's been discussed in
print by syntacticians.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 26 18:48:33 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:48:33 -0700
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

"Get-Back" here signifieth what?

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Jumper cables
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a few:

"Uglier than sheep shit in shallow water"

"Uglier than Sammy Davis, Jr. eating Chinese mustard"

"Funkier than ten gallons of Get-Back"

-Wilson

On Jun 26, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Jumper cables
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
> highway." My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>
> "He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a
> one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl
> Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).
>
> "Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
> several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>
> JL
>
> Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: Jumper cables
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jim Landau:
>> I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>> cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>
> Sam Clements:
>> I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>> Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.
>
> The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
> newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:
>
> -----
> Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
> Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
> Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
> Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
> Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
> Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
> Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
> Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
> -----
>
> I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 26 19:00:31 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:00:31 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I have several hundred (and references therein to several thousand more).

Dennis R. Preston. 1975 Proverbial comparisons from Southern Indiana.
Orbis 24,1:72-114.

dInIs

>I have a few:
>
>"Uglier than sheep shit in shallow water"
>
>"Uglier than Sammy Davis, Jr. eating Chinese mustard"
>
>"Funkier than ten gallons of Get-Back"
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Jun 26, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
>>Subject:      Re: Jumper cables
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
>>highway."  My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>>
>>"He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a
>>one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl
>>Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).
>>
>>"Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
>>several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>>Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Jim Landau:
>>>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>>>cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>>
>>Sam Clements:
>>>I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>>>Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.
>>
>>The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
>>newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:
>>
>>-----
>>Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
>>Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
>>Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
>>Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
>>Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
>>Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
>>Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
>>Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
>>-----
>>
>>I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.
>>
>>
>>--Ben Zimmer
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 26 20:26:41 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:26:41 EDT
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

The band Southern Culture on the Skids (SCOTS) put out an album in 1991called
"Too Much Pork for Just One Fork".  They're North Carolina based, however,
while Ludacris is Atlanta.  Still, maybe there's some connection?  I haven't
been able to find one, but the amg reference for SCOTS said one of their
influences was "chitlin circuit R&B", which is mildly interesting in its own right.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html

From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 26 20:29:28 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:29:28 EDT
Subject: "As If"
Message-ID: 

Where does "shazif" fit into the "as if" discussion?  I have "shazif" (IIRC)
written in one of my yearbooks from 1992, right next to "ai'eet" (alright) (or
some spelling thereof).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html

From bensonej at UWEC.EDU  Sun Jun 26 20:42:42 2005
From: bensonej at UWEC.EDU (Erica Benson)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:42:42 -0500
Subject: "all the faster'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Erik Thomas has an article on the all the + comparative construction (and he
cites a handful of other sources):

Thomas, Erik R. "The Use of all the + Comparative Structure² in ³Heartland²
English ed. by Timothy C. Frazer. University of Alabama Press, 1993.

Erica

-- 
Dr. Erica J. Benson
Assistant Professor
University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun 26 21:29:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:29:51 -0400
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: <44774u$4licj2@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 26, 2005, at 2:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: Jumper cables
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Get-Back" here signifieth what?
>
> JL
>

An object - solid, liquid, or gas - whose stench is so disgusting that
it induces in one a strong desire to "get back" far enough from it that
the odor is no longer perceptible.

You know, this kind of construction must be really peculiar to BE.
When, as a teen-ager, I first heard this, I immediately understood it
and I thought that it was one of the funniest expressions that I had
ever heard. In fact, it still makes me laugh, even though it was more
than fifty years ago that I first heard it. Yet, I've found few, if
any, white people who've responded with anything except a version of
"Say/Do what?"

Kummoan nigh! Don' nunna yawl undastan Merkan, I reckon. Muss not kin.

-Wilson

> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Jumper cables
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I have a few:
>
> "Uglier than sheep shit in shallow water"
>
> "Uglier than Sammy Davis, Jr. eating Chinese mustard"
>
> "Funkier than ten gallons of Get-Back"
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Jun 26, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
>> highway." My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>>
>> "He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a
>> one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl
>> Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).
>>
>> "Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
>> several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>> Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Jim Landau:
>>> I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>>> cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>>
>> Sam Clements:
>>> I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>>> Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.
>>
>> The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
>> newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:
>>
>> -----
>> Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
>> Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
>> Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
>> Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
>> Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
>> Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
>> Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
>> Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
>> -----
>>
>> I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.
>>
>>
>> --Ben Zimmer
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 26 21:39:00 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:39:00 -0700
Subject: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <209.3c5fdaf.2ff06a28@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 26, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Doug Bigham wrote:

> Where does "shazif" fit into the "as if" discussion?  I have
> "shazif" (IIRC)
> written in one of my yearbooks from 1992, right next to
> "ai'eet" (alright) (or
> some spelling thereof).

dunno.  it's new to me.  can you supply any context?  examples?

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 26 23:25:18 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:25:18 -0400
Subject: "As If"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:39:00 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
 wrote:

>On Jun 26, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Doug Bigham wrote:
>
>> Where does "shazif" fit into the "as if" discussion?  I have
>> "shazif" (IIRC) written in one of my yearbooks from 1992, right
>> next to "ai'eet" (alright) (or some spelling thereof).
>
>dunno.  it's new to me.  can you supply any context?  examples?

I'm guessing it's a blend of "sha!" + "as if!" -- two interjections
popularized by "Wayne's World" (the movie came out in '92).

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 27 00:23:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:23:47 -0700
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

And here's a merry collection from old Mizzoo:

missourifolkloresociety.truman.edu/expressions.html

JL

"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: Jumper cables
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have several hundred (and references therein to several thousand more).

Dennis R. Preston. 1975 Proverbial comparisons from Southern Indiana.
Orbis 24,1:72-114.

dInIs

>I have a few:
>
>"Uglier than sheep shit in shallow water"
>
>"Uglier than Sammy Davis, Jr. eating Chinese mustard"
>
>"Funkier than ten gallons of Get-Back"
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Jun 26, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
>>highway." My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>>
>>"He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a
>>one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl
>>Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).
>>
>>"Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
>>several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>>Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Jim Landau:
>>>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>>>cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>>
>>Sam Clements:
>>>I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>>>Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.
>>
>>The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
>>newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:
>>
>>-----
>>Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
>>Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
>>Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
>>Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
>>Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
>>Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
>>Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
>>Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
>>-----
>>
>>I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.
>>
>>
>>--Ben Zimmer
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 27 00:32:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:32:04 -0700
Subject: Jumper cables
Message-ID: 

More:

http://www.yaelf.com/vcmf.html

There must be many more of such collections on the Net.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: Jumper cables
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have several hundred (and references therein to several thousand more).

Dennis R. Preston. 1975 Proverbial comparisons from Southern Indiana.
Orbis 24,1:72-114.

dInIs

>I have a few:
>
>"Uglier than sheep shit in shallow water"
>
>"Uglier than Sammy Davis, Jr. eating Chinese mustard"
>
>"Funkier than ten gallons of Get-Back"
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Jun 26, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
>>highway." My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>>
>>"He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a
>>one-armed paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl
>>Sandburg's _The People, Yes_ (1936).
>>
>>"Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
>>several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>>Subject: Re: Jumper cables
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Jim Landau:
>>>I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today: "I was as busy as jumper
>>>cables at a Puerto Rican wedding".
>>
>>Sam Clements:
>>>I first heard a variant in about 1979 as "jumper cables at a Mexican
>>>Wedding." Heard in California. From a Texan.
>>
>>The "Canonical List Of Language Humor" maintained by the rec.humor
>>newsgroup in the mid-'90s included these similes:
>>
>>-----
>>Busier than a cat covering shit on a hot tin roof.
>>Busier than a centipede at a toe countin' contest.
>>Busier than a one-armed taxi driver with crabs.
>>Busier than a one-eyed cat watching nine mouseholes.
>>Busier than a set of jumper cables at a Mexican wedding.
>>Busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
>>Busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger with the crabs.
>>Busy as a one-legged cat trying to bury shit on a frozen pond.
>>-----
>>
>>I'm sure Rey "Maledicta" Aman has many more in his files.
>>
>>
>>--Ben Zimmer
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 27 02:05:53 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:05:53 -0400
Subject: paperhanger was jumper cables
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The derision of paperhanger in the US might have come from the use of the
term to mean a person who passes bad checks, a forger.  Farmer & Henley has
no entry for paperhanger.  Partridge gives ca. 1925, from US.  I can only
attest it from 1961 when I met a man recently released from prison after
fulfilling his sentence for paperhanging.  His sister was very graciously
letting us print our high school literary magazine at her shop, for cost.
Perhaps we were paperhanging as well.

OT (that's off topic, as I've learned), this guy was a childhood friend of
one of my paternal uncles, who, as far as I know, did not hang paper.  A
quick awakening to the smallness of the world for a 17 year old.

Jim

sagehen writes:

>>At NYU in 1970 I heard "Busier than a cat covering shit on a cement
>>highway."  My interlocutor had learned it from his father.
>>
>>"He was quiet as a wooden-legged man on a tin roof and busy as a one-armed
>>paperhanger with the hives" appears on p. 64 of Carl Sandburg's _The
>>People, Yes_ (1936).
>>
>>"Busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kickin' (contest)" shows up in
>>several WWII novels published in the '50s.
>>
>>JL
>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> "Busier'n a one-armed paperhanger," without further elaboration, was a
> common expression during my childhood.
> Since Adolph Hitler (a k a  "Shickelgruber") was rumored to have been a
> paperhanger at one point,  "paperhanger" itself became a derisive term.
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 27 03:38:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:38:44 -0500
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

"Too Much Pork for Just one Fork" is a slogan used by Gibson's Barbeque here in Huntsville.  SCOTS has played here a number of times, and perhaps picked up the slogan from Gibson's.

>The band Southern Culture on the Skids (SCOTS) put out an album in 1991called
>"Too Much Pork for Just One Fork".  They're North Carolina based, however,
>while Ludacris is Atlanta.  Still, maybe there's some connection?  I haven't
>been able to find one, but the amg reference for SCOTS said one of their
>influences was "chitlin circuit R&B", which is mildly interesting in its own right.

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 27 04:07:33 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:07:33 EDT
Subject: Charles Reynders, Jr. fills in for William Safire
Message-ID: 

LINE OF THE DAY:
24 June 2005, New York Blade (_www.nyblade.com_ (http://www.nyblade.com) ),
pg. 49, col. 2:
The show finally shits into high gear when Chin discovers that she has a
gift for expressing herself through poetry.
...
...
William Safire is on vacation. He was replaced by Charles Reynders, Jr.  Yes,
AGAIN. Is there some reason for this? Does he own the NY Times?

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 27 05:43:39 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:43:39 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:11:41 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>On Jun 17, 2005, at 12:15 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>So are there any noticeable St. Louis-isms in Chuck Berry's songs? I've
>>always wondered if, say, "gunny sack" ("Johnny B. Goode"), "juke joint"
>>("School Days"), "wiggles like a glow worm" ("Roll Over Beethoven"), or
>>"blowin' like a hurrican" ("Rock and Roll Music") were hallmarks of
>>AAVE in the St. Louis region.
>
>Well, the pronunciation "herrican" is one, but the phrase "blowing like
>a hurricane" isn't. We'd say, "The hawk talks." "Gunny sack" is used
>instead of "crocus sack." Mostly, it's Chuck's pronunciation that's
>peculiar to St. Louis.

A belated follow-up... I was recently listening to Chuck Berry's 1958
classic "Carol" and noticed one interesting dialectal form. In a line that
the lyrics pages all transcribe as "You can't dance, I know you wish you
could," Chuck distinctly sings: "...you wush /wUS/ you could." At first I
thought this might be a bit of anticipatory assimilation due to the /U/ in
"could", before realizing that it must be an AAVE variant. And I assume
this isn't specific to St. Louis, since "wush" turns up in various
eye-dialect writings:

Charles W. Chesnutt:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1931082065?v=search-inside&keywords=wush
James Weldon Johnson:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0156135396?v=search-inside&keywords=wush
Paul Laurence Dunbar:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0767919815?v=search-inside&keywords=wush
Priscilla Jane Thompson:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0195052544?v=search-inside&keywords=wush

In any case, this seems to have been a point of confusion for bands trying
to master Chuck's lyrics. When the Rolling Stones covered "Carol" in 1964,
Mick changed the line to "You can't dance, I know you *would* you could."

--Ben Zimmer

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 27 05:43:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:43:45 EDT
Subject: GOP's "Big Tent" (1955, 1957)
Message-ID: 

There has been some dispute involving the "Log Cabin Republicans."  Governor 
George Pataki has always said that the NYS GOP is a "big tent." I've  never 
seen that big tent--I live in a small co-op apartment myself--but I  suppose 
it's out there. 
... 
OED is late. Grant Barrett's book has a 1955 "big tent," but the 1957  
citation here is helpful. "Big tent" increasingly refers to gay  issues. The 
metaphor is "intense." 
... 
... 
... 
(GOOGLE) 
...   
_BoiFromTroy:New York, LA Republicans split on definition of  "Big Tent"_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=12&q=http://boifromtroy.com/archives/004129.
php&e=912)   
Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg. Those who  support the Log Cabin kids say 
including them allows the party to have a  “big tent image.” (Hee hee.) Sen. ...
boifromtroy.com/archives/004129.php - 12k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:mlDPbSvks1gJ:boifromtroy.com/archives/004129.php+"big+tent"+and+p
ataki&hl=en&start=12&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:boifromtroy.com/archives/004129.php)  
...  
_USA TODAY Education - Democracy TODAY_ 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=6&q=http://www.usatoday.com/educate/election04/article19.htm&e=912)   
George Pataki introduces Bush on Thursday. All  favor abortion rights and 
oppose ... The GOP remains "a big  tent," Castle says, even if "sometimes we have 
to  ...
www.usatoday.com/educate/election04/article19.htm - 27k -  _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:xpDwV6nE9X0J:www.usatoday.com/educate/election04/a
rticle19.htm+"big+tent"+and+pataki&hl=en&start=6&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.usatoday.com/ed
ucate/election04/article19.htm) 
bi
    3. Polit. A political party (or  coalition of parties) that permits and 
encourages a broad spectrum of  views and opinions among its members rather 
than insisting on strict  adherence to party policy; such inclusiveness espoused 
as a doctrine or  strategy. Freq. attrib.  

[1962cawe never let 
anybody unite  a major faction again 2001 Independent 2 Jan.  I. 1/2 They 
suspect that Mr  Blair will fudge key issues in the Labour manifesto in an attempt 
to  repeat the ‘Big  Tent’ appeal to all sections of  society.

...
...
       32. _How  They Got to Be President; A HISTORY OF PRESIDENTIAL ELEC- 
TIONS. By Eugene  H. Roseboom. Mac- millan. $8.50. _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=31&did=160521702&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=30
9&VName=HNP&TS=1119850611&clientId=65882) 
Reviewed by  Edward T. Folliard White House reporter for The Washington Post, 
Folliard  has covered eight presidential campaigns.. The  Washington Post and 
Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul  14, 1957. p. E6 (1 page) 
The Republicans, who are now upset by the quarrel in  their party between the 
Moderns and the Old Guard, would profit by what Prof.  Rosenboom tells about 
their party. They would be reminded that the GOP was made  up of diverse 
elements even as it won its first victory behind Abraham Lincoln  and that, over 
the years, it has held a big tent over liberals, conservatives,  
middle-of-the-roaders, and also some  crackpots.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 27 06:14:22 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:14:22 -0400
Subject: GOP's "Big Tent" (1955, 1957)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:43:45 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>There has been some dispute involving the "Log Cabin Republicans."
>Governor George Pataki has always said that the NYS GOP is a "big tent."
>I've  never seen that big tent--I live in a small co-op apartment
>myself--but I  suppose it's out there.
>...
>OED is late. Grant Barrett's book has a 1955 "big tent," but the 1957
>citation here is helpful.

-----
Ironwood Daily Globe (Mich.), July 31, 1940, p. 5/5
Of all the Democratic bolters to go Willkie in recent weeks the proudest
captive of the GOP Big Tent is John Hanes, onetime treasury under
secretary in the Roosevelt cabinet, and more recently a director of the
Hearst corporation.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Mon Jun 27 06:41:48 2005
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:41:48 +0800
Subject: Jumper cables
In-Reply-To: <200506260150.j5Q1oQfj019718@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, James A. Landau wrote:

> I heard an interesting ethnic slur(?) today:  "I was as busy as jumper cables
> at a Peurto Rican wedding".
>
> Has anybody heard this comparison before?

In the 80's Southern California:

As slow as a Mexican funeral procession with one set of jumper cables.

Russ

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 27 12:39:13 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:39:13 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <46uc7l$flcq5b@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 27, 2005, at 1:43 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:11:41 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 17, 2005, at 12:15 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>> So are there any noticeable St. Louis-isms in Chuck Berry's songs?
>>> I've
>>> always wondered if, say, "gunny sack" ("Johnny B. Goode"), "juke
>>> joint"
>>> ("School Days"), "wiggles like a glow worm" ("Roll Over Beethoven"),
>>> or
>>> "blowin' like a hurrican" ("Rock and Roll Music") were hallmarks of
>>> AAVE in the St. Louis region.
>>
>> Well, the pronunciation "herrican" is one, but the phrase "blowing
>> like
>> a hurricane" isn't. We'd say, "The hawk talks." "Gunny sack" is used
>> instead of "crocus sack." Mostly, it's Chuck's pronunciation that's
>> peculiar to St. Louis.
>
> A belated follow-up... I was recently listening to Chuck Berry's 1958
> classic "Carol" and noticed one interesting dialectal form. In a line
> that
> the lyrics pages all transcribe as "You can't dance, I know you wish
> you
> could," Chuck distinctly sings: "...you wush /wUS/ you could." At
> first I
> thought this might be a bit of anticipatory assimilation due to the
> /U/ in
> "could", before realizing that it must be an AAVE variant. And I assume
> this isn't specific to St. Louis, since "wush" turns up in various
> eye-dialect writings:
>
> Charles W. Chesnutt:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1931082065?v=search-
> inside&keywords=wush
> James Weldon Johnson:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0156135396?v=search-
> inside&keywords=wush
> Paul Laurence Dunbar:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0767919815?v=search-
> inside&keywords=wush
> Priscilla Jane Thompson:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0195052544?v=search-
> inside&keywords=wush
>
> In any case, this seems to have been a point of confusion for bands
> trying
> to master Chuck's lyrics. When the Rolling Stones covered "Carol" in
> 1964,
> Mick changed the line to "You can't dance, I know you *would* you
> could."
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

I am in complete agreement with you on this point. Another instance
occurs in the Stones' version of Bobby Womack's _It's All Over Now_.
The Stones sing "She hurt my nose open, that's no lie." The correct
line is "She had my nose open, that's no lie." I don't know what the
Stones thought that the line meant, but to say that a woman has a man's
nose open is to say that he's stone in love with her, that she can lead
him around like using the proverbial ten-foot pole to lead a bull
around by the ring in his nose.

I learned the phrase in St. Louis around the time that I reached
adolescence in the late '40's, whereas Bobby Womack's song was composed
and recorded in L.A. in the mid-'Sixties. So, I've always assumed that
the "nose" phrase is, like the pronunciation "wush," pan-BE, though, of
course, the former is phonetics and the latter is slang.

Oddly enough, I had no idea that the Stones had done a cover of _Carol_.

-Wilson Gray

From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Jun 27 12:52:48 2005
From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:52:48 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jun 2005 to 26 Jun 2005 (#2005-178)
In-Reply-To: <200506270430.j5R4RTcU268480@f05n16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:00 AM 6/27/2005, A. Murie wrote:
>"Busier'n a one-armed paperhanger," without further elaboration, was a
>common expression during my childhood.
>Since Adolph Hitler (a k a  "Shickelgruber") was rumored to have been a
>paperhanger at one point,  "paperhanger" itself became a derisive term.
>A. Murie

My mother (z'l), born and raised in London--the real one--had a slight
elaboration:

'Busier than a one-armed paperhanger with hives.'

I remember asking what a paperhanger was when I was a wee'un.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan
Department of English/Computing and Information Technology
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202

Phones:  C&IT (313) 577-1259/English (313) 577-8621

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Jun 27 13:02:49 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:02:49 +0100
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jun 2005 to 26 Jun 2005 (#2005-178)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Only yesterday i came across

1921 _Jerry on the Job_ [King Features Syndicate cartoon strip] I’m as
busy as a one-armed guy buttoning his glove.

JG

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 27 15:24:08 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:24:08 -0500
Subject: GOP's "Big Tent" (1955, 1957)
Message-ID: 

>From a non-political context:

"Humanism and Ethics" Eugene Garret Bewkes
International Journal of Ethics, Vol. 41, No. 1 (Oct., 1930), pp. 14-15.

"Humanism is a n expansiv trisyllable, a veritable "big-tent" of a word,
sheltering many varieties of performance under its spreading canvas."

> Ironwood Daily Globe (Mich.), July 31, 1940, p. 5/5 Of all
> the Democratic bolters to go Willkie in recent weeks the
> proudest captive of the GOP Big Tent is John Hanes, onetime
> treasury under secretary in the Roosevelt cabinet, and more
> recently a director of the Hearst corporation.
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 27 20:35:19 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:35:19 -0700
Subject: Wheedling
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031031103516.02640d78@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Oct 31, 2003, at 7:35 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote:

> Found on C|Net News this morning.  Presumably a malapropism, but
> who knows....
>
> Google recently started wheedling down a long list of investment
> banks it approached earlier this month about underwriting the
> offering, which could be worth from $15 billion to $25 billion, the
> executives said.

it took me a long while to get back to it, but it's now been entered
in the eggcorn database:

   http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/400/wheedle/

(#300 in the database!)

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 27 22:59:18 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:59:18 -0700
Subject: Fwd: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
Message-ID: 

a report from colorado:

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Laura Michaelis 
> Date: June 27, 2005 3:06:13 PM PDT
> To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
>
> Subject: Re: "all the faster"
>
> I'm afraid I know of no paper, in the Construction Grammar
> framework or any other, that discusses the use of 'all the faster'
> and its ilk in contexts that don't entail comparison. I quite
> frankly had never even heard of this usage, although my colleague
> Lise Menn, who grew up in Philly, is very familiar with it. Like
> Arnold, she thinks it has very limited productivity, and in
> particular that it's limited to 'bigger' and 'faster' (as in, e.g.,
> 'Is that all the bigger he's going to get?' said of a dog). For
> what it's worth, I have a paper in Studies in Language (1994, vol.
> 18, number 1) that discusses a somewhat similar semantic extension
> in Latin, in which ablative-case degree words paired with
> comparatives (e.g., quanto altius 'the higher') are used to equate
> *fixed* points on two scales, just as in English 'as...as'
> constructions. Following is in an example:
>
> Quanto altius elatus erat, tanto foedius conruit. (Livy)
> 'By the degree to which he had risen high, by that much he fell
> badly'.
>
> Compositionally, the sentence would mean 'The higher he rose, the
> worse he fell'. On this reading, the comparative words would be
> what I call 'moving standard' comparatives (as in, e.g., 'She got
> sicker and sicker'), in which comparative morphology is used to
> denote accretion of some scalar property. However, the context
> (including verbal aspect) suggests instead that that appropriate
> translation is the one I have given: what is being described is a
> single episode of falling, with a fixed 'badness' value, from a
> fixed height. In other words, the meaning of the sentence is one in
> which comparative morphology makes no semantic contribution. And in
> fact, as we might expect, we occasionally find instances of the
> 'fixed values' usage in which the comparative degree has been
> replaced by the positive in the works of Tacitus and Livy (see
> examples 11-12 in my paper), suggesting a semantic regularization
> that appears not to have happened in the English usage at issue
> (e.g., we don't find *'Is that all the big he's going to get?').
> All examples of the 'fixed degree' use of the Latin pattern date
> from Silver Age Latin, suggesting that it is an innovative use of a
> correlative pattern originally used to expressed 'linked
> variables'. Thus, it appears that the innovative use of the pattern
> 'degree word + comparative word' to express a fixed value akin to
> that expressed by 'as...as' , if that's what's going on in the
> English construction at issue, has a precedent in Latin. By the
> way, I am assuming that English 'the' in this context is
> appropriately viewed as a degree word, because it reflects an OE
> instrumental demonstrative analogous to the ablative-case 'tanto'
> of Latin --Laura

From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 28 00:56:35 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:56:35 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <7791a04d594af68f7705ab4ee95ba448@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".

In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
(rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of /wV/,
or vice-versa, or not?

"Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND on-line
gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little "Concise
Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
/wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).

-- Doug Wilson

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 01:35:48 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:35:48 -0400
Subject: Fwd: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <0E1811C2-E2CD-4FD5-821C-9CCAD6E83969@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 3:59 PM -0700 6/27/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>a report from colorado:
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>>From: Laura Michaelis 
>>Date: June 27, 2005 3:06:13 PM PDT
>>To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
>>
>>Subject: Re: "all the faster"
>>
>>I'm afraid I know of no paper, in the Construction Grammar
>>framework or any other, that discusses the use of 'all the faster'
>>and its ilk in contexts that don't entail comparison. I quite
>>frankly had never even heard of this usage, although my colleague
>>Lise Menn, who grew up in Philly, is very familiar with it. Like
>>Arnold, she thinks it has very limited productivity, and in
>>particular that it's limited to 'bigger' and 'faster' (as in, e.g.,
>>'Is that all the bigger he's going to get?' said of a dog). For
>>what it's worth, I have a paper in Studies in Language (1994, vol.
>>18, number 1) that discusses a somewhat similar semantic extension
>>in Latin, in which ablative-case degree words paired with
>>comparatives (e.g., quanto altius 'the higher') are used to equate
>>*fixed* points on two scales, just as in English 'as...as'
>>constructions.

The Latin construction Laura mentions is very interesting; I was
speculating about a connection with "the more the merrier" as well.
But as to the claim that the non-comparative "all the Xer"
construction is limited to "bigger" and "faster", I think that's a
bit too strong a constraint.  Here are some relevant google hits, all
of which sound fine to me.

unfortunately, that's all the longer it's ever lasted

So as we here at the iPod Garage enter our eleventh week (is that all
the longer
it's been?) of publication,...

is that all the longer you expect your ride to last?!

I'd do her in half a second. Is that all the longer you would last?????

That's all the older she is

Charlie Kueper is 5.1 and that's all the older he is going to get.

If that's all the older it is, it should be fine.
[from a "What's Meat Answers" site]

Because that's all the older the earth is and you weren't there to
see the dinosaurs, so you can't speak.

That's all the older you are, Duck? Now I do feel old.

Is that all the better you think I can do??

Bagheera: Try [Mowgli tries to climb the tree-trunk but can't] Is that all the
better you can climb? Mowgli: It's too, it's too big around!
[yes, from Disney's "Jungle Book"]

Is that all the better of an argument you can put up? Pitiful.

That's all the higher it needs to be.

That's all the higher I expect it to play.

You mean he was full grown then and that's all the taller he was?

and so on, of course all involving unmarked adjectives denoting the
positive quantitative scalar element (no, or at most very few, cases
of "all the lower", "all the younger", "all the shorter" in the
relevant sense).

larry

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 28 05:56:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:56:08 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <46ug4j$4ooi66@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

For me and Chuck Berry, it rhymes with "push."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 27, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" 
> Subject:      Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>
> In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
> (rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
> mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of
> /wV/,
> or vice-versa, or not?
>
> "Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND
> on-line
> gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little
> "Concise
> Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
> /wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun 28 06:20:14 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:20:14 -0700
Subject: Hot Box
In-Reply-To: <790662ae770cb14bae36fc28e3ccaf83@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

Learned a new drug term from a much younger colleague today. It's been years
since I've been anywhere near drug culture and I'm not up on the lingo.
Makes me feel old.

The term is "hot box", both a noun and a verb, meaning a confined place
where one smokes pot or to smoke pot in a confined place in order to take
advantage of the second-hand smoke.

Some Google Groups hits:

"yea...or do the same 'hot box' in an old beetle! those things ROCK!!!"
alt.drugs.pot, 17 May 1999

"me and my buds call that game 'hot box'. because during the rotation of
monster hits we keep the windows rolled up air tight so we 'roast' inside
the car...double damage." alt.drugs.pot, 16 June 1999

"We call a 'hot box' or 'clam bake' a 'Dutch Oven', or just 'Dutch'." (from
someone in Australia), alt.drugs.pot, 21 Nov 1999

"Cops would go around with breath-alizers and if you registered less than
20% blood THC, they would throw you in the car to do a "hot box" (filling
the car with lots o smoke to breathe in more smoke than normal)..."
alt.drugs, 11 Mar 2000

"For second hand smoke to show up in a piss test, you'd have to hot box a
'77 Civic with the windows closed, and chain smoke at least an ounce."
rec.music.phish, 21 June 2000

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net

From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM  Tue Jun 28 06:44:14 2005
From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:44:14 +0800
Subject: Hot Box
In-Reply-To: <200506280623.j5S6N8fj013613@zero.taolodge.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Dave Wilton wrote:

> Learned a new drug term from a much younger colleague today. It's been years
> since I've been anywhere near drug culture and I'm not up on the lingo.
> Makes me feel old.

30 years ago we used the term to describe what happens
when a cigarette (or joint) is rapidly smoked.
"Don't hotbox it."

Found this:

Hot Boxing

To hot box is to take huge drags off your
cigarette so as to smoke it all in a short time. For
example if you only had a minute or two for a smoke break,
you wold (sic) "hot box" so you'd be done in time.

http://www.wordwizard.com/slangstreet/showslang.asp?Street=Smoking

Russ

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 28 07:44:11 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:44:11 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
Message-ID: 

Doug Wilson wrote:
>
> MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>
> In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
> (rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
> mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of
> /wV/, or vice-versa, or not?

Wilson Gray wrote:
>
> For me and Chuck Berry, it rhymes with "push."

In all of the AAVE eye-dialect examples that I've seen (admittedly not a
large sample), "wush" is only used as a verb with an object clause (as in
Chuck B.'s "you wush you could").  Is it even possible to use the /wUS/
variant as an intransitive verb, or as a noun?  If it always appears as
V + obj. clause, perhaps that's an indication that the vowel in /wUS/ has
been influenced by "would" /wUd/.  "Would" historically has been used like
this form of "wish" -- though such usage is rare nowadays, except in the
formations "would rather (that)" and "would sooner (that)".

If that's the case, then Mick J. wasn't too far off when he misconstrued
the line in "Carol" as "you can't dance, I know you would you could"
(though I suspect he thought this was some exotic AAVE shortening of "you
would [dance] if you could").

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 28 11:56:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:56:38 -0700
Subject: Ironically
Message-ID: 

Here's a paradigm case of  "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.

Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.

"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"

"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 28 13:48:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:48:02 EDT
Subject: Got Hops?
Message-ID: 

GOT HOPS--804 Google hits, 99 Google Groups hits
...
I was watching the ESPN basketball draft preview last night. (The NBA draft  
is on ESPN tonight.) It was said that Syracuse's Hakim Warrick, a possible NJ  
Nets selection, "got hops."
...
Maybe he just doesn't drink milk?
...
How old is "hops"="jumping ability"? OED? HDAS?
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
_GILL possible trades..._ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.basketball.nba.seattle-sonics/browse_thread/thread/7a8e23e898f0651c/b88f5e5f02fbe3
b1?q="got+hops"&rnum=85&hl=en#b88f5e5f02fbe3b1)  
... First  off, Miner is not all that great of a guard. He's got hops, but  
he's poor
off the dribble and has a miserable shot outside of 20 ft.  ...   
_alt.sports.basketball.nba.seattle-sonics_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.basketball.nba.seattle-sonics?hl=en)  - Jan 20  1995, 8:51 pm by 
Kurtis Araki - 3 messages - 3 authors 
...
...
----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OT
...

_http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/nyregion/metrocampaigns/28manhattan.html?hp
&ex=1120017600&en=e8b8dd35276add5c&ei=5059&partner=AOL_ 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/nyregion/metrocampaigns/28manhattan.html?hp&ex=1120017600&en=e8b8
dd35276add5c&ei=5059&partner=AOL) 
The September Democratic primary includes three Hispanic candidates: Mr.  
Espaillat, Councilwoman Margarita López and Carlos Manzano, a former city  
administrator. There are two black candidates: Assemblyman Keith L. T. Wright  and 
Councilman Bill Perkins. The remaining candidates are white; they include  
Brian Ellner, a lawyer; former Councilman Stanley Michels; Councilwoman Eva  
Moskowitz and Assemblyman Scott Stringer. Barry Popik, who is an administrative  
law judge, is a Republican candidate. The large Democratic field could narrow  
after the deadline for candidate petitions on July 14, when the Board of  
Elections begins to determine who is qualified for the ballot. The candidates  are 
competing in a borough that is about 45 percent white and roughly 27 percent  
Hispanic. Black Manhattanites account for about 15 percent of the borough, and 
 Asian-Americans account for slightly less than 10 percent.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 13:58:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:58:43 -0400
Subject: Rummy and the Last Throe
Message-ID: 

Reminiscent of our earlier discussion of the singular-"kudo" eggcorn,
we now have Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld instructing us on
lexicography as follows:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N26248382.htm

Rumsfeld, speaking on "Fox News Sunday," defended Vice President Dick
Cheney's widely criticized remarks that the insurgency was in its
"last throes," even as he predicted a possible near-term increase in
violence.

The number of attacks had remained "about level," but the insurgents
were becoming more deadly, Rumsfeld said. The U.S. death toll in Iraq
exceeds 1,700, and last week six Americans were killed in a bomb
attack in Falluja.

"The lethality is up," Rumsfeld said. "Last throes could be a violent
last throe, just as well as a placid or calm last throe. Look it up
in the dictionary."

As always, one cannot be sure which dictionary is "the dictionary",
but the one closest to hand, AHD4, doesn't help identify that placid
throe, or indeed even the violent one, when it's used as a singular:

NOUN:
1. A severe pang or spasm of pain, as in childbirth. See synonyms at pain.
2. throes A condition of agonizing struggle or trouble: a country in
the throes of economic collapse

Presumably, it's not the spasm of pain that's involved here, but the
condition of agonizing struggle.  Unlike "kudos", "throes" did
originate as a (Middle English) plural, but sing. "throe" (e.g. of
revolution) has long since gone the way of "kempt" or "couth" and
thus now represents a reanalysis-cum-back-formation from "throes".
I'm sure google would have provided the Secretary with many models
for his usage, but it hasn't made it into "the dictionary" yet.

Larry

(P.S.  If you're keeping score, Rummy also allowed that this
particular last throe may last up to 12 years.)

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 28 15:26:24 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:26:24 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050627204628.03047820@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"

The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.

dInIs

>MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>
>In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>(rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
>mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of /wV/,
>or vice-versa, or not?
>
>"Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND on-line
>gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little "Concise
>Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>/wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>
>-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 28 15:37:22 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:37:22 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <20050628040029.85931B2439@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Wilson writes:
   >>>>>
I am in complete agreement with you on this point. Another instance
occurs in the Stones' version of Bobby Womack's _It's All Over Now_.
The Stones sing "She hurt my nose open, that's no lie." The correct
line is "She had my nose open, that's no lie."
 <<<<<

Similarly, while researching* my part of our recent discussion on Mose
Allison, I found
 - that Eric Clapton had covered his song "Parchman Farm"
 - that the Clapton site I looked at listed the lyrics, crediting them
properly
 - but that the line
        "I'm puttin' that cotton in a 'leven-foot sack"
   was misquoted as
        "I'm puttin' that cotton in a never-full sack"

I don't know whether that's the way Clapton sang it or whether he got it
right and somebody transcribed him wrong.

* a comforting way of describing not working at work

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 28 15:42:43 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:42:43 -0400
Subject: GOP's "Big Tent" (1955, 1957)
In-Reply-To: <20050628040029.85931B2439@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Bill Mullins quotes:
   >>>>>
"Humanism is a n expansiv trisyllable, a veritable "big-tent" of a word,
sheltering many varieties of performance under its spreading canvas."
 <<<<<

Trisyllable? Hmm. Does the schwa not count because it has no letter, or the
'm' because its letter is not a vowel, or what?

(Meta-observation: I felt I had to add ", or what" to make it clear that I
didn't mean to pose a purely binary question.)

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 15:50:56 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:50:56 -0400
Subject: GOP's "Big Tent" (1955, 1957)
In-Reply-To: <20050628114234.V19834@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:42 AM -0400 6/28/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>Bill Mullins quotes:
>    >>>>>
>"Humanism is a n expansiv trisyllable, a veritable "big-tent" of a word,
>sheltering many varieties of performance under its spreading canvas."
>  <<<<<
>
>Trisyllable? Hmm. Does the schwa not count because it has no letter, or the
>'m' because its letter is not a vowel, or what?
>
>(Meta-observation: I felt I had to add ", or what" to make it clear that I
>didn't mean to pose a purely binary question.)
>

Especially given the era of the quote, I'd wager it's the latter.  No
"vowel", no syllable.

Larry

From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun 28 16:11:22 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:11:22 -0400
Subject: Hot Box
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I did an entry for "hotbox" v. last fall and was able to take it back
to 1994:

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/hotbox/

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

On Jun 28, 2005, at 02:20, Dave Wilton wrote:
> The term is "hot box", both a noun and a verb, meaning a confined
> place
> where one smokes pot or to smoke pot in a confined place in order
> to take
> advantage of the second-hand smoke.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 28 16:15:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:15:11 -0700
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
Message-ID: 

It ain't necessarily so that "wuz" is meaningless eye-dialect.  While most people I know say
 / wVz / anyway, in East Tennessee I have also heard a very distinct / waz /.  A roommate used to say it, so I had plenty of time to observe and take notes.

So if you're a / waz /  sayer,  we  / wVz / sayers are the oddballs, and would be representedas saying "wuz."

Confusion obtains, however, when my "wuz" is written as "wuz" to represent "wuz" / wUz /.

Amyone wishing to write a monograph on the situation is welcome to use the title, " 'Wuz' : Is it is or is it Ain't ?"

JL

"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"

The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.

dInIs

>MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>
>In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>(rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
>mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of /wV/,
>or vice-versa, or not?
>
>"Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND on-line
>gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little "Concise
>Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>/wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>
>-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

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From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 28 16:24:55 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:24:55 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <20050628161511.43798.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

JL is indeed correct to note that "wuz" is ambiguous as to its true
eye-dialect status. There are some of us (standard speakers like me)
who have wedge (the vowel of "butt"). Some strange speakers appear to
have the vowel of "father." For that strange minority the spelling
"wuz" is indeed not eye-dialect but their attempt to represent the
actual pronunciation of the correct majority.

There may also be, even for us standard wedge speakers, a hint in the
"wuz" spelling that it is fronted, common among southern speakers, a
vowel nearer backwards epsilon than wedge.

As we skip around dialects, it may be difficult to find eye-dialect
that is only eye dialect for everybody.

dInIs

>It ain't necessarily so that "wuz" is meaningless eye-dialect.
>While most people I know say
>  / wVz / anyway, in East Tennessee I have also heard a very distinct
>/ waz /.  A roommate used to say it, so I had plenty of time to
>observe and take notes.
>
>So if you're a / waz /  sayer,  we  / wVz / sayers are the oddballs,
>and would be representedas saying "wuz."
>
>Confusion obtains, however, when my "wuz" is written as "wuz" to
>represent "wuz" / wUz /.
>
>Amyone wishing to write a monograph on the situation is welcome to
>use the title, " 'Wuz' : Is it is or is it Ain't ?"
>
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" 
>>  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
>are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
>difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"
>
>The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
>but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.
>
>dInIs
>
>>MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>>
>>In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>>(rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
>>mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of /wV/,
>>or vice-versa, or not?
>>
>>"Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND on-line
>>gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little "Concise
>>Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>>/wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>>
>>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of English
>Morrill Hall 15-C
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>Office: (517) 432-3791
>Fax: (517) 453-3755
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Tue Jun 28 16:33:10 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:33:10 +0100
Subject: hotbox
Message-ID: 

There is also the use of 'hotbox'  in the sense of drawing deeply on a
cigarette. Jon Lighter doesn't have it, so I assume it is not in common
use. (I may, on the other hand, simply be revealing my ignorance of US
smoking mores). Thus

1998 (context 1986) George Pelecanos _Sweet Forever_ 277: He hotboxed
his cigarette and stabbed it savagely into the ashtray.

However I have no cites for this other than in a couple of Pelecanos
books, so it may be his own (mis)reading of the more usual use. In fact
there _ is_ a reference in an Eminem lyric, but it's so opaque - 'Your
little lungs is too small to hotbox with God' - that it could refer to
closed cars, deep drags, or possibly something quite other.

JG.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 28 16:38:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:25 -0700
Subject: hotbox
Message-ID: 

I'm unfamiliar with any of these senses of "hotbox."

JL

Jonathon Green  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathon Green
Subject: hotbox
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is also the use of 'hotbox' in the sense of drawing deeply on a
cigarette. Jon Lighter doesn't have it, so I assume it is not in common
use. (I may, on the other hand, simply be revealing my ignorance of US
smoking mores). Thus

1998 (context 1986) George Pelecanos _Sweet Forever_ 277: He hotboxed
his cigarette and stabbed it savagely into the ashtray.

However I have no cites for this other than in a couple of Pelecanos
books, so it may be his own (mis)reading of the more usual use. In fact
there _ is_ a reference in an Eminem lyric, but it's so opaque - 'Your
little lungs is too small to hotbox with God' - that it could refer to
closed cars, deep drags, or possibly something quite other.

JG.

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From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 28 16:41:49 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:41:49 -0400
Subject: wush
In-Reply-To: <20050628040029.85931B2439@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>
 In any case, this seems to have been a point of confusion for bands trying
to master Chuck's lyrics. When the Rolling Stones covered "Carol" in 1964,
Mick changed the line to "You can't dance, I know you *would* you could."
 <<<

Presumably not the archaic use ("Would that you could know me as I am"). :-)

mark by hand

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 28 16:51:50 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:51:50 -0400
Subject: hotbox
In-Reply-To: <42C17BC6.806@abecedary.net>
Message-ID: 

Teenage smoking; Louisville KY area; early 1950s, especially of
shared cigarettes. "Don't hotbox that cig!" i.s., don't take several
long drags off it.

dInIs

>There is also the use of 'hotbox'  in the sense of drawing deeply on a
>cigarette. Jon Lighter doesn't have it, so I assume it is not in common
>use. (I may, on the other hand, simply be revealing my ignorance of US
>smoking mores). Thus
>
>1998 (context 1986) George Pelecanos _Sweet Forever_ 277: He hotboxed
>his cigarette and stabbed it savagely into the ashtray.
>
>However I have no cites for this other than in a couple of Pelecanos
>books, so it may be his own (mis)reading of the more usual use. In fact
>there _ is_ a reference in an Eminem lyric, but it's so opaque - 'Your
>little lungs is too small to hotbox with God' - that it could refer to
>closed cars, deep drags, or possibly something quite other.
>
>JG.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Tue Jun 28 17:05:23 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:05:23 +0100
Subject: hotbox
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>Subject:      Re: hotbox
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Teenage smoking; Louisville KY area; early 1950s, especially of
>shared cigarettes. "Don't hotbox that cig!" i.s., don't take several
>long drags off it.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
I'm aware of that one too, although I thought it was used in the context
of smoking marijuana and is as such a synonym for 'bogart'. All
citations gratefully received.

JG

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 28 17:12:15 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:12:15 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 27, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Larry Horn wrote:

> ... as to the claim that the non-comparative "all the Xer"
> construction is limited to "bigger" and "faster", I think that's a
> bit too strong a constraint.

that was lise menn's claim.  i certainly accept some other As --
"further"/"farther" for sure, and some others.

> Here are some relevant google hits, all of which sound fine to me.

LONGER

> ... that's all the longer it's ever lasted
>
> ... is that all the longer it's been?
>
> is that all the longer you expect your ride to last?!
>
> Is that all the longer you would last?????

OLDER

> That's all the older she is
>
> ... that's all the older he is going to get.
>
> If that's all the older it is,...
>
> Because that's all the older the earth is...
>
> That's all the older you are, Duck?

BETTER

> Is that all the better you think I can do??
>
> Is that all the better you can climb?
>
> Is that all the better of an argument you can put up?

HIGHER

> That's all the higher it needs to be.
>
> That's all the higher I expect it to play.

TALLER

> ... and that's all the taller he was?

(note preference for zero-relatives over "that"-relatives.  and how
many of these examples are questions.)

> and so on, of course all involving unmarked adjectives denoting the
> positive quantitative scalar element (no, or at most very few, cases
> of "all the lower", "all the younger", "all the shorter" in the
> relevant sense).

i think this is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for
occurrence in this construction.  that is, the maximum category is
unmarked As denoting the positive quantitative scalar element, and
there might be people who have the construction for all such As.  but
i'm not such a person.  things like "is that all the clearer you can
write?" and "is that all the clearer the weather gets around here?"
and many others are all odd for me.  my guess is that the best As for
this construction are those that are "semantically central" -- if
your language has any As at all, they will denote such properties
(cue reference to dixon)  -- and "everyday" (frequent, not technical
or otherwise registrally/stylistically restricted, etc.).  there's a
nice little research project for someone here, i think.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 28 17:40:02 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:40:02 -0400
Subject: LGBT (1991,
 1992); London's  "Daily Express" & Big Apple Whores (6-25-05)
Message-ID: 

LONDON'S DAILY EXPRESS & THE BIG APPLE WHORES
...
Can't people in England Google? We have some UK-based ADS-L subscribers here. Can you write in to the Daily Express? Can you tell them that I did "break a leg," too? Can you tell the Daily Express that I'm going to break both their legs???
...
...
(FACTIVA)
YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED 
670 words 
25 June 2005
The Daily Express
45
English
(c) 2005 Express Newspapers 

The Saturday briefing 
Is there anything you are desperately yearning to know? Are there any pressing factual disputes you would like us to help resolve? This is the page where we shall do our best to answer any questions you throw at us, whatever the subject. 
QWhy is New York called The Big Apple? 
Jeff Parsons, Godalming, Surrey AAccording to the Society for New York City History, it all started with a French woman called Evelyn who opened a highly successful brothel in New York around 1804 with girls whom she referred to as "Eve's irresistible apples". Early references to New York as "The Apple" or "Big Apple" were references to the city's decadence, while the politician William Jennings Bryan in 1892 called the city "the foulest Rotten Apple on the Tree of decadent Federalism". The Apple Marketing Board then turned things round by promoting slogans such as "An apple a day keeps the doctor away" and "as American as apple pie". Finally, in the Thirties, American jazz musicians adopted the phrase and it stuck. 
...
QWhy do Arsenal fans call themselves The Gooners? 
John English, by e-mail AIt all started as an insult by Spurs fans in the Sixties when they taunted their North London rivals by changing the official name of Gunners (an arsenal is where guns and ammunition are kept) to Gooners. The Arsenal fans rather liked the name and adopted it for themselves. 
...
QCould you please tell me what does the saying "FAB" in the hit puppet show Thunderbirds mean? 
Ross, age 12, by e-mail AThanks for the question, Ross. 
Don't believe anyone who tells you it's "Filed, Actioned, Briefed" or "Fine Acknowledge Broadcast" or anything like that. The official answer, according to Thunderbirds creator Gerry Anderson, is that FAB doesn't stand for anything at all. It was something they made up on the spur of the moment during a writing session and never meant anything other than "fabulous". 
...
QIs it true everyone has a doppelganger somewhere? 
Glyn Thomas, Hadleigh AThat's an easy one - the answer's No. But with six and a half billion people to choose from, you'd have a good chance of finding a near match somewhere, even if you don't have your own waxwork partner. 
...
QAbout 30 years ago, I was listening to the news when there was an item about an invention involving gyroscopes that would make it possible to fly to Australia in six hours.What happened to this? 
A Chell, Bangor ANot quite 30 years. The man was Scottish inventor Sandy Kidd who had been experimenting with gyroscopic propulsion from the midEighties. In 1988 he came up with an idea that was hailed as likely to revolutionise travel. Newspapers even talked about trips to Mars in 34 hours and London to Sydney in minutes. An Australian corporation, British Aerospace and US Universities all tried to develop the idea, but nothing ever came of it. Sandy Kidd is still working in this area but has recently described at least one aspect of it as a "disreputable pursuit". 
...
QI know the theatrical expression "break a leg" means good luck, but how did it originate? 
Robert Broadfield, Stourbridge AThere are around a dozen theories, some more far-fetched than others. 
Some link it to the assassination of Abraham Lincoln by the actor John Wilkes Booth in 1865. After firing the fatal shot, Booth jumped from the stage and broke his leg. But actors did not use the phrase until at least the Twenties, so an 1865 origin looks doubtful. Another theory is that it is a wish for the actor to take many final bows in response to applause. The more you bow, the more likely you are to break a leg. Most likely, though, is a derivation from the German actors' greeting "Hals und Beinbruch", meaning "neck and leg break". It was supposed to be a way of wishing good luck without inviting the fates to wreck your hopes.   
...
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LGBT
...  
Can anyone beat Grant Barrett's 1991 for LGBT or LGBTQ? Google Groups seems to take it back to 1992 at best...Why isn't it the more alphabetically ordered BGLT? Would that be bacon, guava, lettuce, tomato?
...
...

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/lgbtq/
LGBTQ adj. having a sexual orientation other than heterosexual. 
Acronym. English. Gay. Sexuality.  United States. [Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender/transsexual/two-spirited, queer/questioning.] 
1991 Val Codd, Rebecca Myers-Spiers Off Our Backs (Aug. 1) "Young queers unite" vol. 29, no. 8, p. 4: Many participants voiced concern that although the Castro, the city's premier gay neighborhood, is a safe space for all lgbtq people, it is primarily a gay male middle-class enclave, and is not always a safe space for queer homeless youth. 1998 Daphne Scholinski The Last Time I Wore a Dress (Oct. 1) p. 209: National caolition of organizations and agencies serving LGBTQ youth. 2004 Sheila Mullowney Newport Daily News (R.I.) (May 17) "'Queer' label still raises questions": It can be used to describe both gender identity and sexual orientation and increasingly is being used in a new, wide-ranging alphabet soup-LGBTQQ, for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and questioning in Youth Pride's case, or in the case of the Rhode Island Foundation's "Meet the Neighbors" report released last year, LGBTQ, for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, two-spirited (a Native American reference), queer and questioning. 
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
  gaynet  Aug 11 1992, 5:39 pm  

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
From: gay... at ATHENA.MIT.EDU -
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 21:17:03 -0400
Local: Tues,Aug 11 1992 9:17 pm 
Subject: GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 617

In this issue: 
                              Waldenbooks 
                              Child abuse 
                       gay men's fear of intimacy 
                    The return of Joe Clark... *not* 
                     K-Mart & Walgreens book ban... 
                                  ROTC 
                               censorship 
                           san fran and gays 
           Statistics on geographic concentrations of Gay men 
                              AIDS History 
                 1993 National LGBT Studies Conference 
                           research position 
                              IN THE LIFE 
                        Getting AIDS in the mail 

Please send messages for the entire list to gay... at ATHENA.MIT.EDU, 
requests to be added or deleted to gaynet-requ... at ATHENA.MIT.EDU, and 
personal replies directly to the other person, not the entire list. 
Postings to GayNet are public communications.  If you must keep your 
privacy, send your messages to gaynet-anonym... at ATHENA.MIT.EDU. 

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 28 18:01:09 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:01:09 -0700
Subject: LGBT (1991,
 1992); London's  "Daily Express" & Big Apple Whores (6-25-05)
In-Reply-To: <8C74A1F8C22FA4D-A2C-1191D@mblk-d32.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 28, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Barry Popik wrote:

> LGBT
> ...
> Can anyone beat Grant Barrett's 1991 for LGBT or LGBTQ? Google
> Groups seems to take it back to 1992 at best...Why isn't it the
> more alphabetically ordered BGLT? Would that be bacon, guava,
> lettuce, tomato?

there are three questions here: the ordering of initials, in
particular whether it's GL or LG; the inclusion of B (always after B
and L, i believe); the inclusion of T (always after B, i believe).
(Q is an even later addition.)

GL and LG (as in NOGLSTP, the National Organization of Gay and
Lesbian Scientists and Technical Professionals) certainly go back
before 1992.  So do GLB and LGB (as in the Ohio State AGLBFS,  the
Association of Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Faculty and Staff).  i'm
not sure when the ordering of L before G, so as not to put gay men in
the position of greatest prominence, started.  the addition of T
might actually be since 1992.

campus diversity offices and groups would be a good place to look.
i'll forward this query to a friend who runs an LGBT office, in the
hope that she knows where some of the history might be found.

arnold

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 28 18:25:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:25:32 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <46ug4j$4qhsnn@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 28, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> JL is indeed correct to note that "wuz" is ambiguous as to its true
> eye-dialect status. There are some of us (standard speakers like me)
> who have wedge (the vowel of "butt"). Some strange speakers

Damn, dInIs! "Strange speakers"?!" That sho' wahz col'! "Wuz" is
strange to those of us who use [waz] with a vowel approaching that of
"father," as you,  correctly, as usual, note. Another case is the
citation/stressed pronunciation of "of" as "ahv" instead of as "uv."
An' we aint no "_strange_ minori-tih," neevuh! Y'all BIN knowin' who we
is! ;-)

(Baugh, I believe it is, would prefer "been know," but for me and mine,
it's always been "been Verb+ing." A dialect split, I guess. I once
cited to John at the first NWAV a sentence spoken by a geechee Army
buddy of mine: "When I was stationed at Fort Polk [LA], man, I STOOD in
New Orleans," meaning, of course, that he STAYED - spent all of his
free time - in N.O. This was something that I found interesting, given
the existence of the much older use of "stood" as the past of "stay" in
"I should have stood in bed," supposedly spoken by a Jewish New Yorker
back in the '40's. John chose not to make a reply of any kind, though
this example in no way contradicted any of his points. So, he's not on
my list of good people. Not that this matters, of course. I'm dealing
with a migraine and I just feel like whining. ;-)  BTW, I've also heard
"nem" as in "Mama-nem" - generally considered to be a Southernism and
"scream on" - used in St. Louis BE slang to mean "shout at" - likewise
used by Jewish New Yorkers with the relevant meaning. Weird! IAC, if
I've offended anyone, I apologize.)

-Wilson Gray

>  appear to
> have the vowel of "father." For that strange minority the spelling
> "wuz" is indeed not eye-dialect but their attempt to represent the
> actual pronunciation of the correct majority.
>
> There may also be, even for us standard wedge speakers, a hint in the
> "wuz" spelling that it is fronted, common among southern speakers, a
> vowel nearer backwards epsilon than wedge.
>
> As we skip around dialects, it may be difficult to find eye-dialect
> that is only eye dialect for everybody.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> It ain't necessarily so that "wuz" is meaningless eye-dialect.
>> While most people I know say
>>  / wVz / anyway, in East Tennessee I have also heard a very distinct
>> / waz /.  A roommate used to say it, so I had plenty of time to
>> observe and take notes.
>>
>> So if you're a / waz /  sayer,  we  / wVz / sayers are the oddballs,
>> and would be representedas saying "wuz."
>>
>> Confusion obtains, however, when my "wuz" is written as "wuz" to
>> represent "wuz" / wUz /.
>>
>> Amyone wishing to write a monograph on the situation is welcome to
>> use the title, " 'Wuz' : Is it is or is it Ain't ?"
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>> "Dennis R. Preston" >
>>>  wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>
>> Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
>> are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
>> difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"
>>
>> The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
>> but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>> MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>>>
>>> In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>>> (rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it
>>> some
>>> mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant
>>> of /wV/,
>>> or vice-versa, or not?
>>>
>>> "Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND
>>> on-line
>>> gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little
>>> "Concise
>>> Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>>> /wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>>>
>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor
>> Department of English
>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>> Office: (517) 432-3791
>> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 28 18:29:26 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:29:26 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <46ug4j$4qh4n4@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 28, 2005, at 12:15 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> It ain't necessarily so that "wuz" is meaningless eye-dialect.  While
> most people I know say
>  / wVz / anyway, in East Tennessee I have also heard a very distinct /
> waz /.  A roommate used to say it, so I had plenty of time to observe
> and take notes.
>
> So if you're a / waz /  sayer,  we  / wVz / sayers are the oddballs,
> and would be represented as saying "wuz."
>
> Confusion obtains, however, when my "wuz" is written as "wuz" to
> represent "wuz" / wUz /.
>
> Amyone wishing to write a monograph on the situation is welcome to use
> the title, " 'Wuz' : Is it is or is it Ain't ?"
>
> JL

Thank you, Jon! You deserve a standing "O."

-Wilson

> "Dennis R. Preston" 
>> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
> Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
> are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
> difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"
>
> The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
> but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.
>
> dInIs
>
>> MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>>
>> In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>> (rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
>> mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of
>> /wV/,
>> or vice-versa, or not?
>>
>> "Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND
>> on-line
>> gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little
>> "Concise
>> Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>> /wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>>
>> -- Doug Wilson
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 18:29:34 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:29:34 -0400
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <322FFB04-BF96-443D-9308-ED9D9FB1B96A@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 10:12 AM -0700 6/28/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Jun 27, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>... as to the claim that the non-comparative "all the Xer"
>>construction is limited to "bigger" and "faster", I think that's a
>>bit too strong a constraint.
>
>that was lise menn's claim.  i certainly accept some other As --
>"further"/"farther" for sure, and some others.
>
>>Here are some relevant google hits, all of which sound fine to me.
>
>LONGER
>
>>... that's all the longer it's ever lasted
>>
>>... is that all the longer it's been?
>>
>>is that all the longer you expect your ride to last?!
>>
>>Is that all the longer you would last?????
>
>OLDER
>
>>That's all the older she is
>>
>>... that's all the older he is going to get.
>>
>>If that's all the older it is,...
>>
>>Because that's all the older the earth is...
>>
>>That's all the older you are, Duck?
>
>BETTER
>
>>Is that all the better you think I can do??
>>
>>Is that all the better you can climb?
>>
>>Is that all the better of an argument you can put up?
>
>HIGHER
>
>>That's all the higher it needs to be.
>>
>>That's all the higher I expect it to play.
>
>TALLER
>
>>... and that's all the taller he was?
>
>(note preference for zero-relatives over "that"-relatives.  and how
>many of these examples are questions.)
>
>>and so on, of course all involving unmarked adjectives denoting the
>>positive quantitative scalar element (no, or at most very few, cases
>>of "all the lower", "all the younger", "all the shorter" in the
>>relevant sense).
>
>i think this is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for
>occurrence in this construction.  that is, the maximum category is
>unmarked As denoting the positive quantitative scalar element, and
>there might be people who have the construction for all such As.  but
>i'm not such a person.  things like "is that all the clearer you can
>write?" and "is that all the clearer the weather gets around here?"

cf. "That's all the clearer the vision was, then. But it was like a
beacon, leading
me eagerly onward."  but only that one, and none for "Is that all the
clearer...?"

>and many others are all odd for me.  my guess is that the best As for
>this construction are those that are "semantically central" -- if
>your language has any As at all, they will denote such properties
>(cue reference to dixon)  -- and "everyday" (frequent, not technical
>or otherwise registrally/stylistically restricted, etc.).  there's a
>nice little research project for someone here, i think.
>
I think there's also a pragmatic element that can override the
lexical semantics.  If I'm lowering some shelf, or whatever, my
companion can ask me to lower it a bit more and I could reply (if I'm
a speaker of the relevant wider dialect) "That's all the lower it
will/can go".  Let me googlify this intuition...yup, here are a few,
some including pricing rather than literal height:

LOWER

Its more stable and I upload faster now,, which is great. Still drop
18 packets,
but that's all the lower it seems to go.

They were willing to give it up for $350, but that's all the lower
they would go.

Yea, I saw ur posted message [re Mastiff puppies] and is that all the
lower the prices are gonna be?

That's all the lower I will go because there are some in there that
are rare and
you can't find in stores,(examples: ChaiotZu, Cyborg Frieza, and Uub)

If the outside pressure is only > 28" then that's all the lower the guage
will read.

Larry

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Tue Jun 28 18:30:58 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:30:58 +0100
Subject: Hot Box
In-Reply-To: <200506281611.j5SGBFqG025962@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

> On Jun 28, 2005, at 02:20, Dave Wilton wrote:
>> The term is "hot box", both a noun and a verb, meaning a confined
>> place
>> where one smokes pot or to smoke pot in a confined place in order
>> to take
>> advantage of the second-hand smoke.

Not to mention (but, of course I will) hot box as female genitals (William
C. Joby, 'A Case', Oceanic Press, Paris, 1960), as well as female as female
as sex object /sexually responsive female (Spike Regal, 'Southern Stallion',
Extasy Books, N.P. Inc, USA, 1969).

--Neil Crawford

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 18:40:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:40:50 -0400
Subject: LGBT (1991,
 1992); London's  "Daily Express" & Big Apple Whores (6-25-05)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>On Jun 28, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Barry Popik wrote:
>
>>LGBT
>>...
>>Can anyone beat Grant Barrett's 1991 for LGBT or LGBTQ? Google
>>Groups seems to take it back to 1992 at best...Why isn't it the
>>more alphabetically ordered BGLT? Would that be bacon, guava,
>>lettuce, tomato?
>
>there are three questions here: the ordering of initials, in
>particular whether it's GL or LG; the inclusion of B (always after B

that should read G

>and L, i believe); the inclusion of T (always after B, i believe).
>(Q is an even later addition.)

I agree that the ordering is partly determined on chronological
grounds.  Bisexuals were afterthoughts historically,
Transsexual/Transgendered people a still later thought, and so on.  I
can't think of any initialisms that are ordered alphabetically, if
Barry was--contrary to my suspicion--asking non-ironically.  I think,
as Arnold suggests, that it wouldn't be that hard to find GL- as well
as LG- ordering.  Another consideration is phonology, when acronyms
are involved, as in GLAD, the Gay & Lesbian Awareness Days at Yale
(the inaugural was in '82).  I see elsewhere similar events are
called, or have mutated into, B-GLAD, where the BGL ordering is
clearly motivated on acronymic rather than alphabetic grounds.

Larry

>
>GL and LG (as in NOGLSTP, the National Organization of Gay and
>Lesbian Scientists and Technical Professionals) certainly go back
>before 1992.  So do GLB and LGB (as in the Ohio State AGLBFS,  the
>Association of Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Faculty and Staff).  i'm
>not sure when the ordering of L before G, so as not to put gay men in
>the position of greatest prominence, started.  the addition of T
>might actually be since 1992.
>
>campus diversity offices and groups would be a good place to look.
>i'll forward this query to a friend who runs an LGBT office, in the
>hope that she knows where some of the history might be found.
>
>arnold

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 18:47:15 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:47:15 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 2:25 PM -0400 6/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>   BTW, I've also heard
>"nem" as in "Mama-nem" - generally considered to be a Southernism and
>"scream on" - used in St. Louis BE slang to mean "shout at" - likewise
>used by Jewish New Yorkers with the relevant meaning. Weird! IAC, if
>I've offended anyone, I apologize.)
>
>-Wilson Gray

I don't know about Jewish New Yorkers (even though I'm one of 'em),
but Pittsburghers count "Momanem" as a shibboleth of Pittsburghese
(in "humorous" regional-pride books, newspaper articles, pamphlets
and web sites), so I'm not sure how generally it's considered to be a
Southernism.

Larry

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 28 18:58:42 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:58:42 -0700
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
Message-ID: 

Better than the running "AAAIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!"  I usually get.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 28, 2005, at 12:15 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> It ain't necessarily so that "wuz" is meaningless eye-dialect. While
> most people I know say
> / wVz / anyway, in East Tennessee I have also heard a very distinct /
> waz /. A roommate used to say it, so I had plenty of time to observe
> and take notes.
>
> So if you're a / waz / sayer, we / wVz / sayers are the oddballs,
> and would be represented as saying "wuz."
>
> Confusion obtains, however, when my "wuz" is written as "wuz" to
> represent "wuz" / wUz /.
>
> Amyone wishing to write a monograph on the situation is welcome to use
> the title, " 'Wuz' : Is it is or is it Ain't ?"
>
> JL

Thank you, Jon! You deserve a standing "O."

-Wilson

> "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
> Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
> are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
> difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"
>
> The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
> but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.
>
> dInIs
>
>> MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>>
>> In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>> (rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
>> mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of
>> /wV/,
>> or vice-versa, or not?
>>
>> "Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND
>> on-line
>> gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little
>> "Concise
>> Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>> /wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>>
>> -- Doug Wilson
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 28 19:01:33 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:01:33 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:24 PM -0400 6/28/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>JL is indeed correct to note that "wuz" is ambiguous as to its true
>eye-dialect status. There are some of us (standard speakers like me)
>who have wedge (the vowel of "butt"). Some strange speakers appear to
>have the vowel of "father." For that strange minority the spelling
>"wuz" is indeed not eye-dialect but their attempt to represent the
>actual pronunciation of the correct majority...
>

Somehow, I keep thinking of that album from the 80's, "Was (Not
Was)", which for ages I could never quite figure out because I only
saw references to it in print, until I heard someone pronounce it:
[was], not [w at z]  (or, depending on your phonology or religion,
[was], not [w^z]), an allusion to the appropriate pronunciation of
the last name of the lead singer, Don Was.

Larry

>
>>It ain't necessarily so that "wuz" is meaningless eye-dialect.
>>While most people I know say
>>  / wVz / anyway, in East Tennessee I have also heard a very distinct
>>/ waz /.  A roommate used to say it, so I had plenty of time to
>>observe and take notes.
>>
>>So if you're a / waz /  sayer,  we  / wVz / sayers are the oddballs,
>>and would be representedas saying "wuz."
>>
>>Confusion obtains, however, when my "wuz" is written as "wuz" to
>>represent "wuz" / wUz /.
>>
>>Amyone wishing to write a monograph on the situation is welcome to
>>use the title, " 'Wuz' : Is it is or is it Ain't ?"
>>
>>
>>JL
>>
>>"Dennis R. Preston" >
>>>  wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>
>>Subject: Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>First, these are not eye-dialect examples in the strict sense; they
>>are respellings which try to represent an actual pronunciation
>>difference (not such eye-dialect only stuff as "sez" and "wuz"
>>
>>The vowel we are after here is perhaps closer to "push" than "lush,"
>>but it is a central vowel, at IPA barred i.
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>MW3 shows the variant pronunciation /wUS/ for "wish".
>>>
>>>In those 'eye-dialect' examples of "wush" is the pronunciation /wUS/
>>>(rhymes with "push") or is it /wVS/ (rhymes with "lush") or is it some
>>>mixture of these? Do we know for sure? Is /wU/ an expected variant of /wV/,
>>>or vice-versa, or not?
>>>
>>>"Wush" is one conventional Scots spelling of "wiss" (= "wish"). SND on-line
>>>gives several examples from 19th and 20th century Scots. My little "Concise
>>>Scots Dictionary" seems to indicate a pronunciation /wVS/ (along with
>>>/wIs/, /wIS/, /wVs/).
>>>
>>>-- Doug Wilson
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of English
>>Morrill Hall 15-C
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>>Office: (517) 432-3791
>>Fax: (517) 453-3755
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of English
>Morrill Hall 15-C
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>Office: (517) 432-3791
>Fax: (517) 453-3755

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Jun 28 19:28:19 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:28:19 +0100
Subject: LGBT (1991,
 1992); London's  "Daily Express" & Big Apple Whores (6-25-05)
In-Reply-To: <8C74A1F8C22FA4D-A2C-1191D@mblk-d32.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Barry Popik complained:

> LONDON'S DAILY EXPRESS & THE BIG APPLE WHORES
> ...
> Can't people in England Google? We have some UK-based ADS-L
> subscribers here. Can you write in to the Daily Express?

Trying to correct the Daily Express is a waste of time. It was once a
fairly good newspaper but since Richard Desmond (the owner of several
"adult" magazines) bought it some years ago it has gone downhill to
become what in US terms would be called a supermarket tabloid.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 28 13:05:48 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:05:48 -0400
Subject: Ironically
In-Reply-To: <20050628115638.54242.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Here's a paradigm case of  "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
>
>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming
>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
>
>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"
>
>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
>
>JL
 ~~~~~~~~
Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
supposed to  benefit from association with his presumably courageous
pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 28 18:32:54 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:32:54 -0400
Subject: Answers?
Message-ID: 

>>From Barry's post:

>The Daily Express
>45
>English
>(c) 2005 Express Newspapers

>:The Saturday briefing
>Is there anything you are desperately yearning to know? Are there any
>pressing >factual disputes you would like us to help resolve? This is the
>page where we >shall do our best to answer any questions you throw at us,
>whatever the subject.
~~~~~~~~~
Somehow the quality of this come-on ought to suggest the quality of the
answers. :-)
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 28 21:38:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:38:29 -0700
Subject: Ironically
Message-ID: 

I dunno, Alison. I hear sentence-initial "ironically" all the time on live TV, and it rarely seems to draw attention to any real "irony."

Here's another ex., if I may paraphrase. (Have I posted this before?)  One local news reporter is introduced as having "come to us from KRAP in Salt Lake City."  Then he introduces a second reporter by saying, "And joining the Action News Team for the first time tonight is Susie Newsie. Ironically, Susie grew up in Salt Lake City."

Ironic ?  Or just surprisingly coincidental ?  We report, etc.

JL
sagehen  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: Ironically
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Here's a paradigm case of "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
>
>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming
>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
>
>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"
>
>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~
Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
supposed to benefit from association with his presumably courageous
pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
AM

~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 28 22:01:25 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:01:25 -0700
Subject: Hot Box
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 28, 2005, at 11:30 AM, neil wrote:

> ... Not to mention (but, of course I will) hot box as female
> genitals (William
> C. Joby, 'A Case', Oceanic Press, Paris, 1960), as well as female
> as female
> as sex object /sexually responsive female (Spike Regal, 'Southern
> Stallion',
> Extasy Books, N.P. Inc, USA, 1969).

and so to the Hot Box Girls in "Guys and Dolls"...

arnold

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 28 22:05:18 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:05:18 -0400
Subject: Ironically
In-Reply-To: <20050628213830.39838.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>I dunno, Alison. I hear sentence-initial "ironically" all the time on live
>TV, and it rarely seems to draw attention to any real "irony."
>
>Here's another ex., if I may paraphrase. (Have I posted this before?)  One
>local news reporter is introduced as having "come to us from KRAP in Salt
>Lake City."  Then he introduces a second reporter by saying, "And joining
>the Action News Team for the first time tonight is Susie Newsie.
>Ironically, Susie grew up in Salt Lake City."
>
>Ironic ?  Or just surprisingly coincidental ?  We report, etc.
>
>JL
 ~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, well.  You may be right, but it's hardly fair to attribute the errors
of others to LA.  I should admit that I know  (& care) less than nothing
about this guy beyond that he's a multi-winner of some (boring!) cycling
race.
AM
(okay, "less than" is hyperbole.)
~~~~~~~~~
>>Here's a paradigm case of "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
>>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
>>
>>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming
>>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
>>
>>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"
>>
>>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
>>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
>>
>>JL
>~~~~~~~~
>Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
>stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
>supposed to benefit from association with his presumably courageous
>pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
>AM
>
>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 28 22:23:45 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:23:45 -0400
Subject: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
In-Reply-To: <42c19c44.7e9490ea.2c2d.ffff8cb2SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

That's very interesting, Larry. I had no idea about the Pittsburgh
usage. Needless to say, I faked it in my spelling. I say "Mama-nim."
It would take about a week of practice for me to be able to lower
[nIm] to [nEm] and I'd still have to plan ahead, to use it in actual
speech.

The guy that I heard say "Mama-nem" was the Bloch Fellow at the 1971
LSA Summer Institute. He was an Americanist - the Haida language, if
memory serves - from Columbia. Unfortunately, I'm able only to
tip-of-my-tongue his name. In his speech, he sounded like the second
coming of Arnold Stang. I don't know whether you're old enough to
remember Arnold, but he made his living playing the Yiddish-accented,
token Jewish kid, with a name like "Harvey Prinzmettel"(sp?), on a
zillion radio programs - A Date With Judy, Meet Corliss Archer, Our
Miss Brooks, etc. - and a few early TV shows, back in the day.

-Wilson

On 6/28/05, Laurence Horn  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: wush (was Re: "Sock It to Me")
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 2:25 PM -0400 6/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >   BTW, I've also heard
> >"nem" as in "Mama-nem" - generally considered to be a Southernism and
> >"scream on" - used in St. Louis BE slang to mean "shout at" - likewise
> >used by Jewish New Yorkers with the relevant meaning. Weird! IAC, if
> >I've offended anyone, I apologize.)
> >
> >-Wilson Gray
>
> I don't know about Jewish New Yorkers (even though I'm one of 'em),
> but Pittsburghers count "Momanem" as a shibboleth of Pittsburghese
> (in "humorous" regional-pride books, newspaper articles, pamphlets
> and web sites), so I'm not sure how generally it's considered to be a
> Southernism.
>
> Larry
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 28 22:35:28 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:35:28 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 28, 2005, at 11:29 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> ... I think there's also a pragmatic element that can override the
> lexical semantics.  If I'm lowering some shelf, or whatever, my
> companion can ask me to lower it a bit more and I could reply (if I'm
> a speaker of the relevant wider dialect) "That's all the lower it
> will/can go".  Let me googlify this intuition...yup, here are a few,
> some including pricing rather than literal height:...

nice observations.

erik thomas's discussion of the grammar of the construction (in
frazer's "Heartland English") is very short -- only two pages.
thomas accepts a certain number of examples not in cleftoid contexts,
though they all strike me as very odd:

18.  An hour's all the longer that show lasts.
20.  I'm going all the faster I can go.
21.  I tried all the harder I could.
22.  He's washing dishes all the more quickly that he wants to.

(22 suffers from the periphrastic comparative as well as the non-
cleftoid context.)

thomas also accepts this comparative with a "than" clause (and i don't):

16.  That's all the bigger than an apple they get.

thomas notes that superlatives can take simple adverbs as modifiers,
but this comparative cannot:

14.  That's the very prettiest she can be.
15. *That's all the very prettier she can be.

[note: the examples are thomas's, not mine.]

(here, this comparative is like comparison with "as": *That's as very
pretty as she can be.)

and he notes that this comparative can't be used with "much", though
the superlative and "as" comparison can:

23.  That was   the most /as much as   we could do.
24. *That was all the more we could do.

something i've just noticed that also differentiates this comparative
from the superlative and "as" comparison is external modification:

  That was almost   the loudest /as loud as   she could sing.
*That was almost all the louder she could sing.

but enough of random observations...

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 29 01:14:32 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:14:32 -0400
Subject: Ironically
In-Reply-To: <20050628213830.39838.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>I dunno, Alison. I hear sentence-initial "ironically" all the time
>on live TV, and it rarely seems to draw attention to any real
>"irony."
>
>Here's another ex., if I may paraphrase. (Have I posted this
>before?)  One local news reporter is introduced as having "come to
>us from KRAP in Salt Lake City."  Then he introduces a second
>reporter by saying, "And joining the Action News Team for the frst
>time tonight is Susie Newsie. Ironically, Susie grew up in Salt Lake
>City."
>
>Ironic ?  Or just surprisingly coincidental ?  We report, etc.
>
>JL

I would actually distinguish between your case, which is indeed
glossable as 'surprisingly coincidental[ly]' (or maybe just
'coincidentally') and has been around for awhile, and the
Alison/Lance cite, which is I think a still nother extension or
broadening.  I've been hearing the former use of "ironically" for
some time; the latter I can't even begin to figure out.

L

P.S.  Note the draft addition to the OED entry; I guess this entry
subscribes to Jon's view that these extended uses ('curiously' as
well as 'coincidentally') are all of a piece.  I'm not sure what I
would make of all these entries, though; some seem to be in the
spirit of the traditional meaning, others may not be, but in some
cases additional context would be needed to determine if (classical)
irony is involved.

ironically, adv.
In weakened, typically parenthetical use, often opening a sentence:
paradoxically, curiously, unexpectedly, coincidentally.

1907 E. WHARTON Fruit of Tree II. xii. 187 He had done very little
with the opportunity... What he had done with it..had landed him,
ironically enough, in the ugly impasse of a situation from which no
issue seemed possible.
1947 Life 17 Nov. 11/2 One of the chief reasons for this marked-down
bonanza is, ironically, the fact that Peru is economically less
self-sufficient than many countries.
1968 Etc. June 186 Ironically, it will be the lower-class male who is
most likely to be the first to achieve the freudian concept of sexual
maturity.
1974 W. FOLEY Child in Forest II. ii. 84 My new master had..a
patronising distaste for servants, and all the 'lower orders'.
Ironically, he had married 'beneath him'.
1986 Today 9 July 9/1 The Yard was responding to claims that a
Caribbean gang--ironically called The Yardies--has moved into
London's Brixton area. 1997 B. ROWLANDS Which? Guide to Complementary
Med. 153 Homeopaths believe that this succussion confers the
therapeutic effect on the solution and that, ironically, the weaker
the solution the more effective it is.

>sagehen  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: sagehen
>Subject: Re: Ironically
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>Here's a paradigm case of "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
>>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
>>
>>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming
>>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
>>
>>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"
>>
>>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
>>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
>>
>>JL
>~~~~~~~~
>Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
>stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
>supposed to benefit from association with his presumably courageous
>pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
>AM
>
>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 29 01:44:53 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:44:53 -0700
Subject: Ironically
Message-ID: 

While sagehen's analysis of the Armstrong ex. is theoretically possible, it strikes me as quite unlikely in this case. Seeing and hearing the exchange on live TV, I did not get the sense that either Brian Kilmead (the interviewer) or Lance Armstrong was referring to any unfavorable connotations of the color yellow.  Armstrong seemed to think that it was "ironic" (however one chooses to define it) that there really were people who earned their living by studying colors and "what colors mean to people."

Nothing in either speaker's intonation, facial expression, or body language (e.g., a raised eyebrow or half-smile) suggested that the yellow might be taken unfavorably  It was not the color yellow that seemed to me to be the source of the "irony."

Somewhere OED has a cite I sent in nearly ten years ago which, as I recall, went something like this:

"Paleontologists have named the new species of dinosaur 'Seismosaurus.'  It may have been the largest creature ever to ewalk the earth.  Ironically, the technique scientists used to discover the bones is called 'seismic imaging.'"

Maybe Jesse can favor us with the accurate quotation.

Here's another (reconstructed) example from about the same time. An in-flight consumers' catalogue was offering for sale high-quality prints of an aviation painting that depicted a vintage DC-3 turning on its approach to an airport in the 1930s or '40s.  The airport, if I remember correctly, had some special connection with the DC-3; let's say it was Atlanta.  The ad's caption read something like, "Ironically, [the artist] was born in Atlanta."

It impressed me because there seemed to be no conceivable sort of irony in the fact, but the adverb did serve to make pure coincidence or trivial artistic destiny sound like something significant.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Ironically
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I dunno, Alison. I hear sentence-initial "ironically" all the time
>on live TV, and it rarely seems to draw attention to any real
>"irony."
>
>Here's another ex., if I may paraphrase. (Have I posted this
>before?) One local news reporter is introduced as having "come to
>us from KRAP in Salt Lake City." Then he introduces a second
>reporter by saying, "And joining the Action News Team for the frst
>time tonight is Susie Newsie. Ironically, Susie grew up in Salt Lake
>City."
>
>Ironic ? Or just surprisingly coincidental ? We report, etc.
>
>JL

I would actually distinguish between your case, which is indeed
glossable as 'surprisingly coincidental[ly]' (or maybe just
'coincidentally') and has been around for awhile, and the
Alison/Lance cite, which is I think a still nother extension or
broadening. I've been hearing the former use of "ironically" for
some time; the latter I can't even begin to figure out.

L

P.S. Note the draft addition to the OED entry; I guess this entry
subscribes to Jon's view that these extended uses ('curiously' as
well as 'coincidentally') are all of a piece. I'm not sure what I
would make of all these entries, though; some seem to be in the
spirit of the traditional meaning, others may not be, but in some
cases additional context would be needed to determine if (classical)
irony is involved.

ironically, adv.
In weakened, typically parenthetical use, often opening a sentence:
paradoxically, curiously, unexpectedly, coincidentally.

1907 E. WHARTON Fruit of Tree II. xii. 187 He had done very little
with the opportunity... What he had done with it..had landed him,
ironically enough, in the ugly impasse of a situation from which no
issue seemed possible.
1947 Life 17 Nov. 11/2 One of the chief reasons for this marked-down
bonanza is, ironically, the fact that Peru is economically less
self-sufficient than many countries.
1968 Etc. June 186 Ironically, it will be the lower-class male who is
most likely to be the first to achieve the freudian concept of sexual
maturity.
1974 W. FOLEY Child in Forest II. ii. 84 My new master had..a
patronising distaste for servants, and all the 'lower orders'.
Ironically, he had married 'beneath him'.
1986 Today 9 July 9/1 The Yard was responding to claims that a
Caribbean gang--ironically called The Yardies--has moved into
London's Brixton area. 1997 B. ROWLANDS Which? Guide to Complementary
Med. 153 Homeopaths believe that this succussion confers the
therapeutic effect on the solution and that, ironically, the weaker
the solution the more effective it is.

>sagehen wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: sagehen
>Subject: Re: Ironically
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>Here's a paradigm case of "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
>>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
>>
>>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming
>>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
>>
>>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"
>>
>>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
>>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
>>
>>JL
>~~~~~~~~
>Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
>stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
>supposed to benefit from association with his presumably courageous
>pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
>AM
>
>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 29 01:58:18 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:58:18 -0700
Subject: Ironically
Message-ID: 

It's hard to tell from the brief quotes, but many of the OED exx. Larry lists seem to exemplify "paradoxically."  To my mind, paradox is rather close to various forms of classical irony.  The examples that really impress me are those, as in my previous post, that seem to have no detectable relationship to "irony" of any kind.

I suppose the fuzzy borderline betwen senses may be in the realm of "coincidentally." But would the exx. of "seismic"  imaging and of the painter who grew up in a city that later figured tangentially in one of his paintings have seemed be of any interest whatsoever if the respective comments had begun, "Coincidentally..." ?

My stupid guess is that people who use this kind of "ironically" don't understand much about "irony" and have simply absorbed the mannerism from liberal arts professors who sort of do. (Who but liberal arts profs are likely to point out many ironies in the first place?)  For users naive in the ways of literature, philosophy, and history,  "ironically" is good connector whose magic makes any sentence sound more impressive.

End of cynical comment.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Ironically
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I dunno, Alison. I hear sentence-initial "ironically" all the time
>on live TV, and it rarely seems to draw attention to any real
>"irony."
>
>Here's another ex., if I may paraphrase. (Have I posted this
>before?) One local news reporter is introduced as having "come to
>us from KRAP in Salt Lake City." Then he introduces a second
>reporter by saying, "And joining the Action News Team for the frst
>time tonight is Susie Newsie. Ironically, Susie grew up in Salt Lake
>City."
>
>Ironic ? Or just surprisingly coincidental ? We report, etc.
>
>JL

I would actually distinguish between your case, which is indeed
glossable as 'surprisingly coincidental[ly]' (or maybe just
'coincidentally') and has been around for awhile, and the
Alison/Lance cite, which is I think a still nother extension or
broadening. I've been hearing the former use of "ironically" for
some time; the latter I can't even begin to figure out.

L

P.S. Note the draft addition to the OED entry; I guess this entry
subscribes to Jon's view that these extended uses ('curiously' as
well as 'coincidentally') are all of a piece. I'm not sure what I
would make of all these entries, though; some seem to be in the
spirit of the traditional meaning, others may not be, but in some
cases additional context would be needed to determine if (classical)
irony is involved.

ironically, adv.
In weakened, typically parenthetical use, often opening a sentence:
paradoxically, curiously, unexpectedly, coincidentally.

1907 E. WHARTON Fruit of Tree II. xii. 187 He had done very little
with the opportunity... What he had done with it..had landed him,
ironically enough, in the ugly impasse of a situation from which no
issue seemed possible.
1947 Life 17 Nov. 11/2 One of the chief reasons for this marked-down
bonanza is, ironically, the fact that Peru is economically less
self-sufficient than many countries.
1968 Etc. June 186 Ironically, it will be the lower-class male who is
most likely to be the first to achieve the freudian concept of sexual
maturity.
1974 W. FOLEY Child in Forest II. ii. 84 My new master had..a
patronising distaste for servants, and all the 'lower orders'.
Ironically, he had married 'beneath him'.
1986 Today 9 July 9/1 The Yard was responding to claims that a
Caribbean gang--ironically called The Yardies--has moved into
London's Brixton area. 1997 B. ROWLANDS Which? Guide to Complementary
Med. 153 Homeopaths believe that this succussion confers the
therapeutic effect on the solution and that, ironically, the weaker
the solution the more effective it is.

>sagehen wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: sagehen
>Subject: Re: Ironically
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>Here's a paradigm case of "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
>>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
>>
>>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the coming
>>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
>>
>>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the] shoe?"
>>
>>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
>>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
>>
>>JL
>~~~~~~~~
>Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
>stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
>supposed to benefit from association with his presumably courageous
>pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
>AM
>
>~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

---------------------------------
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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun 29 02:28:32 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:28:32 -0400
Subject: Ironically
In-Reply-To: <20050629015818.52794.qmail@web53911.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

 I'm happy to withdraw my supposition, in light of your further description
of the interview.
> For users naive in the ways of literature, philosophy, and history,
>"ironically" is >good connector whose magic makes any sentence sound more
>impressive.<
Yup, it'll do that.
AM

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 29 14:26:53 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:26:53 -0700
Subject: "dialogue," trans.
Message-ID: 

OED has a unique ex. of "dialogue" dated 1699 in the sense "to converse with."  It is marked obsolete. The author was a Mr Bugg.

The word has apparently been rediscovered, though usu. it is used in a narrower sense, namely "to engage in a serious dialogue with; speak seriously with, esp. in order to persuade."

1992 David Burke _Street Talk 2_ (L.A.: Optima Books, 1992) 76 Jus' go up an' dialogue 'er. No biggy! _Ibid._ 77  There's my favorite movie star! I'm gonna go dialogue her....Synonym: to chew the fat with someone.

1997 (June 11) uwo.comp.helpdesk  (Usenet) For those who are angry, we try to  dialogue them into understanding that this isn't the place or time to find fault.

2000 (Aug. 29)  alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox (Usenet) She is in that transitional group, but her peity is very beautiful and yet.....no one , not even she would "dialogue" her backwards into some Uniate state.

2001 (Apr. 8) soc.culture.nigeria (Usenet) And we can evaluate it responsibly. If we are unable to exchange ideas, how can we engage the leaders or dialogue them out.

2004 (July 24) soc.culture.lebanon (Usenet) I would have preferred to meet the guy, dialogue him and on that basis it would be safer to make my judgement , not a hasty emotional one .

The 1992 ex. appears in a book intended to increase the vocabularies of non-native speakers.

JL

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From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Jun 29 15:06:23 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:06:23 -0500
Subject: "Sloppy Joe"
Message-ID: 

   Date:         Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:16:01 EDT  Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <[log in to unmask]>  Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List   Subject:      Sloppy Joe (1946, 1948)    On July 2, 2003 Barry Popik posted a helpful item concerning "Sloppy Joe" (sandwich), but his last last quote seems partially incoherent ("'Sloppy Joe' sandwich makings" followed by 'whip cream...):      29 November 1952, CHRONICLE TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 6, col. 7:     While the guests are expending the last chord, you can warm up "Sloppy  Joe" sandwich makings whip cream to go on top of steaming cups of hot chocolate and serve the lunch in front of the fire.

Could someone with access to Newspaperarchive or a similar database check to see if this quote is accurate. Any help would be much appreciated.

Gerald Cohen

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Jun 29 15:13:39 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:13:39 -0500
Subject: "Sloppy Joe"--(2nd try)
Message-ID: 

A minute or so ago I sent a message after first transferring an older message from the ads-l archives to my email and then deleting the heading of the older message.  That deleted information in the heading then turned up somehow in the ads-l message I just sent (explanation: ?).
    Anyway, my apologies for the extra clutter. So (2nd try), here is the way message was intended to read:

  On July 2, 2003 Barry Popik posted a helpful item concerning "Sloppy Joe" (sandwich), but his last last quote seems partially incoherent ("'Sloppy Joe' sandwich makings" followed by 'whip cream...):

      29 November 1952, CHRONICLE TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 6, col. 7:     While the guests are expending the last chord, you can warm up "Sloppy  Joe" sandwich makings whip cream to go on top of steaming cups of hot chocolate and serve the lunch in front of the fire.

Could someone with access to Newspaperarchive or a similar database check to see if this quote is accurate. Any help would be much appreciated.

Gerald Cohen

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 29 15:14:17 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:14:17 -0500
Subject: "Sloppy Joe"
Message-ID: 

The quote is accurate.

The author is suggesting that the host serve the food after a bout of
singing carols to shut-ins (thus the reference to the "last chord").  It
is entirely possible that a comma should be between "sandwich makings"
and "whip cream".  The page image has room for one there, but it is not
visible.

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 29 15:59:43 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:59:43 EDT
Subject: Nanny State (1952)
Message-ID: 

NANNY STATE--175,000 Google hits, 33,000 Google Groups hits
...
I should have checked "sloppy joe," but I was busy.
...
Henry Stern's latest essay includes "nanny state":
Only one witness spoke at the public hearing.  As luck would have it,  it was 
your reporter, who, in the two minutes allotted to him delivered what he  
thought was a spirited attack on the proposed new rule restricting subway  
riders' changing cars.  "We are creating a nanny state," he warned, using a  
pejorative phrase which indicates an objection to government interference  with  an 
activity usually regarded as traditionally within the discretion  of a sane 
adult individual.
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nanny%20state_ 
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nanny%20state) 
nanny state  
n. Informal  
A government perceived as having excessive interest in or  control over the 
welfare of its citizens, especially in the enforcement of  extensive public 
health and safety regulations.
...
...
(OED)
nanny state orig. and chiefly  Brit., the government or its policies viewed 
as overprotective or as  interfering unduly with personal choice. 
1965 _I. MACLEOD_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-m.html#i-macleod)  
in Spectator 26 Feb. 255/3 The London County Council is dying, but the spirit 
of the  *Nanny State fights on. 1994 Guardian 22 Oct. 40/4 There were  
concerns voiced about the potential for unscrupulous salesmen to take advantage  of 
the public. These were brushed aside by ministers, convinced that they were  
symptoms of the ‘nanny  state’.
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...

     _The Sheboygan Press_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2rWRz0Y446NYvzL3aV4G8OpqsC6fUmwfvw==)  _Friday, June 06, 
1952_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)  _Sheboygan,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="nanny+state"+AND+cityid:26604+AN
D+stateid:103+AND+range:1753-1975)   _Wisconsin_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="nanny+state"+AND+stateid:103+AND+range:1753-1975)   
...are turning  Britain itself into a NANNY-STATE, perhaps out of long  
habit.....also filled the role of headmaster, or NANNY-governess,  ilt is an  
amusing..

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun 29 16:25:07 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:25:07 -0400
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I'm an "all the ...er" user and never thought of it as regional (Minnesota
born and bred).  But I agree that Erik's examples are odd, indeed
ungrammatical for me.

At 06:35 PM 6/28/2005, you wrote:
>On Jun 28, 2005, at 11:29 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>... I think there's also a pragmatic element that can override the
>>lexical semantics.  If I'm lowering some shelf, or whatever, my
>>companion can ask me to lower it a bit more and I could reply (if I'm
>>a speaker of the relevant wider dialect) "That's all the lower it
>>will/can go".  Let me googlify this intuition...yup, here are a few,
>>some including pricing rather than literal height:...
>
>nice observations.
>
>erik thomas's discussion of the grammar of the construction (in
>frazer's "Heartland English") is very short -- only two pages.
>thomas accepts a certain number of examples not in cleftoid contexts,
>though they all strike me as very odd:
>
>18.  An hour's all the longer that show lasts.
>20.  I'm going all the faster I can go.
>21.  I tried all the harder I could.
>22.  He's washing dishes all the more quickly that he wants to.
>
>(22 suffers from the periphrastic comparative as well as the non-
>cleftoid context.)
>
>thomas also accepts this comparative with a "than" clause (and i don't):
>
>16.  That's all the bigger than an apple they get.
>
>thomas notes that superlatives can take simple adverbs as modifiers,
>but this comparative cannot:
>
>14.  That's the very prettiest she can be.
>15. *That's all the very prettier she can be.
>
>[note: the examples are thomas's, not mine.]
>
>(here, this comparative is like comparison with "as": *That's as very
>pretty as she can be.)
>
>and he notes that this comparative can't be used with "much", though
>the superlative and "as" comparison can:
>
>23.  That was   the most /as much as   we could do.
>24. *That was all the more we could do.
>
>something i've just noticed that also differentiates this comparative
>from the superlative and "as" comparison is external modification:
>
>  That was almost   the loudest /as loud as   she could sing.
>*That was almost all the louder she could sing.
>
>but enough of random observations...
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 29 16:51:47 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:51:47 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050629122221.031658c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 29, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I'm an "all the ...er" user and never thought of it as regional
> (Minnesota
> born and bred).  But I agree that Erik [Thomas]'s examples are odd,
> indeed
> ungrammatical for me.

its regional status is pretty clear.  in the linguistic atlas
materials, it's very much a middle atlantic thing (concentrated from
new york through virginia), but by the time of DARE's collection it
was strongly a north midland/inland north thing (still in
pennsylvania, but centered in the ohio-through-illinois band).
certainly alive in minnesota.  given that my eastern pennsylvania
childhood was closer in time to the LAMAS collections than to DARE,
it's no surprise that i have the feature.

arnold

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 29 16:58:10 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:58:10 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
Message-ID: 

"That's almost the loudest she can sing."

It wouldn't be difficult for utterances of this sort to be transformed by young children and/or non-native speakers into "...all the loudest...."  Substitute the comparative degree and _voila_!

I'm not claiming that this actually happened, mind you, but it seems like a real possibility.

Or it did till I tried to summon up some Google exx. by using the likely phrase "That's all the biggest it...."  No hits whatsoever. Nor for "That's all the fastest it..."

So "all the + adj. (superlative degree)" would seem to be imaginary so far as Internet users are concerned.

Sorry.

JL

Beverly Flanigan  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm an "all the ...er" user and never thought of it as regional (Minnesota
born and bred). But I agree that Erik's examples are odd, indeed
ungrammatical for me.

At 06:35 PM 6/28/2005, you wrote:
>On Jun 28, 2005, at 11:29 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>... I think there's also a pragmatic element that can override the
>>lexical semantics. If I'm lowering some shelf, or whatever, my
>>companion can ask me to lower it a bit more and I could reply (if I'm
>>a speaker of the relevant wider dialect) "That's all the lower it
>>will/can go". Let me googlify this intuition...yup, here are a few,
>>some including pricing rather than literal height:...
>
>nice observations.
>
>erik thomas's discussion of the grammar of the construction (in
>frazer's "Heartland English") is very short -- only two pages.
>thomas accepts a certain number of examples not in cleftoid contexts,
>though they all strike me as very odd:
>
>18. An hour's all the longer that show lasts.
>20. I'm going all the faster I can go.
>21. I tried all the harder I could.
>22. He's washing dishes all the more quickly that he wants to.
>
>(22 suffers from the periphrastic comparative as well as the non-
>cleftoid context.)
>
>thomas also accepts this comparative with a "than" clause (and i don't):
>
>16. That's all the bigger than an apple they get.
>
>thomas notes that superlatives can take simple adverbs as modifiers,
>but this comparative cannot:
>
>14. That's the very prettiest she can be.
>15. *That's all the very prettier she can be.
>
>[note: the examples are thomas's, not mine.]
>
>(here, this comparative is like comparison with "as": *That's as very
>pretty as she can be.)
>
>and he notes that this comparative can't be used with "much", though
>the superlative and "as" comparison can:
>
>23. That was the most /as much as we could do.
>24. *That was all the more we could do.
>
>something i've just noticed that also differentiates this comparative
>from the superlative and "as" comparison is external modification:
>
> That was almost the loudest /as loud as she could sing.
>*That was almost all the louder she could sing.
>
>but enough of random observations...
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 29 17:08:19 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:08:19 -0400
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <20050629165810.1560.qmail@web53911.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:58 AM -0700 6/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>"That's almost the loudest she can sing."
>
>It wouldn't be difficult for utterances of this sort to be
>transformed by young children and/or non-native speakers into
>"...all the loudest...."  Substitute the comparative degree and
>_voila_!
>
>I'm not claiming that this actually happened, mind you, but it seems
>like a real possibility.
>
>Or it did till I tried to summon up some Google exx. by using the
>likely phrase "That's all the biggest it...."  No hits whatsoever.
>Nor for "That's all the fastest it..."
>
>So "all the + adj. (superlative degree)" would seem to be imaginary
>so far as Internet users are concerned.
>
>Sorry.
>
>JL
>
If you try it without the "that's", you'll pick up a couple...

www.dreamband.net/chat/ forum/read.php?TID=194&page=3
all the biggest it can be is 75 x 75 pixels

www.tabletpcbuzz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3539
If all the volume sliders are all the way up then thats all the
loudest it gets.

Larry

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun 29 17:19:36 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:19:36 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <09F56200-E05B-4B7D-AFDA-D7F6587A41DD@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

--On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:51 AM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky"
 wrote:

> On Jun 29, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>> I'm an "all the ...er" user and never thought of it as regional
>> (Minnesota
>> born and bred).  But I agree that Erik [Thomas]'s examples are odd,
>> indeed
>> ungrammatical for me.
>
> its regional status is pretty clear.  in the linguistic atlas
> materials, it's very much a middle atlantic thing (concentrated from
> new york through virginia), but by the time of DARE's collection it
> was strongly a north midland/inland north thing (still in
> pennsylvania, but centered in the ohio-through-illinois band).
> certainly alive in minnesota.  given that my eastern pennsylvania
> childhood was closer in time to the LAMAS collections than to DARE,
> it's no surprise that i have the feature.
>
> arnold

That's odd.  Then where did I get it?  I'm like Beverly: when I saw the
first message about who uses "all the ...er",  I thought, "Doesn't
everybody??"  I did most of my growing up (from age 4 to college) on the
West Coast and had a mother from Texas and Oklahoma and a father from Iowa.
The closest I ever came to any of the areas Arnold mentions, until college,
was being born in Cleveland and leaving (for Oklahoma) before age 1.  I
can't document the use of the construction by people around me, but
certainly never encountered any amusement, consternation or puzzlement when
I used it.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 29 17:43:15 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:43:15 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1120040376@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 29, 2005, at 10:19 AM, Peter McGraw wonders:

> --On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:51 AM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky"
>  wrote:

>> ...its regional status is pretty clear.  in the linguistic atlas
>> materials, it's very much a middle atlantic thing (concentrated from
>> new york through virginia), but by the time of DARE's collection it
>> was strongly a north midland/inland north thing (still in
>> pennsylvania, but centered in the ohio-through-illinois band)...

> That's odd.  Then where did I get it?  I'm like Beverly: when I saw
> the first message about who uses "all the ...er",  I thought,
> "Doesn't everybody??"  I did most of my growing up (from age 4 to
> college) on the West Coast and had a mother from Texas and Oklahoma
> and a father from Iowa.
> The closest I ever came to any of the areas Arnold mentions, until
> college,
> was being born in Cleveland and leaving (for Oklahoma) before age
> 1.  I can't document the use of the construction by people around
> me, but certainly never encountered any amusement, consternation or
> puzzlement when I used it.

the feature is "regional" in the sense that it's been concentrated in
certain regions.  but look at the DARE map for "all the farther, fu(r)
ther" (I.49) and you'll see that it's widely distributed, including
in california.  (but it's virtually absent in new england and in a
band from kentucky/tennessee through arkansas, louisiana, oklahoma,
the texas panhandle, new mexico, and arizona.  or was, when the DARE
material was collected.)

my college roommate (from louisville, ky.) was briefly baffled the
first time he noticed me using the construction.  he thought it was
just one of my quaint pennsylvania dutchisms.

arnold

From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Wed Jun 29 17:54:07 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris Waigl)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:54:07 +0200
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
Message-ID: 

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

>i think this is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for
>occurrence in this construction.  that is, the maximum category is
>unmarked As denoting the positive quantitative scalar element, and
>there might be people who have the construction for all such As.  but
>i'm not such a person.  things like "is that all the clearer you can
>write?" and "is that all the clearer the weather gets around here?"
>and many others are all odd for me.  my guess is that the best As for
>this construction are those that are "semantically central" -- if
>your language has any As at all, they will denote such properties
>(cue reference to dixon)  -- and "everyday" (frequent, not technical
>or otherwise registrally/stylistically restricted, etc.).  there's a
>nice little research project for someone here, i think.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

There's also "all the more NOUN", including one example from Mencken.
Here are a few more. (I have copied them over, for the links, to an
online wiki here:
http://palimpsest.lascribe.net/linglinks:all_the_comparative).

"All the ADJ/ADV-COMP" -- equiv "the ADJ/ADV-SUP" or "as ADJ/ADV-POS as"
(or not)

* If the above is all the more clearly you can express the idea, I doubt
it has congealed any more effectively in your mind. sci.space.shuttle
* If that’s all the harder you can look, you’re not the prospector I
thought you were. alt.mining.recreational
* Next thing I know the band stops… 10pm-ish. […] The waitress said that
is all the later they ever play; is that true? midwestboatparty.com forum
* ask them if that’s all the harder they can hit, followed with a
mumbled pussy after each hit thereafter rec.sport.fencing
* this is for a golfer that hits 2 greens a round and is within 30 ft
every time. not the question you asked but that’s all the harder i
wanted to think. rec.sport.golf

"All the more NOUN"

* Geez, why even bother to post, if this is all the more info you can
provide? comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
* It gives 1.4X, which is all the more magnification you can get from
such a small lens and still not lose any image quality. rec.video
* Is this all the more life I can expect from a mirror in that location?
autocareforum.com
* Is that all the more sense you got, groovin’ one for that big ape!
Mencken, The American Language, Appendix 1: Specimens of the American
Vulgate, ch. 2: Baseball-American

Special (strange) cases

* The more people, the more non-military, the more you would normally be
at ease at a particular place, is all the more terrified you should be
to go there. rec.arts.disney.parks
* If I try to slide, and I haven’t been sliding in practice, then I
miss. So now I’ve been sliding in practice. If I don’t have to slide, I
don’t. I feel that the slide takes more time. If I can just step into
it, that’s all the earlier I can take the ball. Venus Williams
* If the sheeple are going to stampede, better now then November.
Besides, now that I’ve finished my power conversion, that’s all the
earlier I can sell my portable generator for ten times what I paid.
misc.survivalism
* I don’t think there is anything offensive about having gay couples on
television during family time. Maybe your children would ask questions,
but that’s all the earlier to teach that there are all different kinds
of families. voy.com forum

Chris Waigl

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 29 19:55:48 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:55:48 -0400
Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
Message-ID: 

I did this TEN YEARS ago. I have never been credited in a July 4th newspaper article. So, now that Gerald Cohen and lectured on it and published a book, why should this year be any different?
...
...

Food

July Fourth weekend is approaching ... It's time for cookouts, sparklers and fun ; HOT DIGGITY-DOG; All-American weiner takes center stage on July's grill

SUE GLEITER
Of The Patriot-News
1,038 words
29 June 2005
Patriot-News
FINAL
D01
English
Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved.

Hot dog, it's July Fourth weekend. And that means it's time to crank up the grill.
The patriotic holiday is tops for grilling out and, according to experts, it's a time when hot dogs rule. During the three-day weekend, which is the biggest hot dog eating occasion of the year, it's estimated that 155 million franks will be consumed
Weber, the company that sells grills, recently did a survey and found out 86 percent of those surveyed have grilled hot dogs in the past year, second only to hamburgers. That's alot.
So what if hot dogs don't have much culinary cachet? Food snobs turn their noses up at them, and as far as cooking technique goes, hot dogs are a no-brainer.
But everyone agrees hot dogs go with summer cookouts. They're all- American and steeped in tradition.
So here we've assembled fun facts and tidbits, a guide to everything hot dogs.
* July is National Hot Dog Month. According to the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, Americans will consume 7 billion hot dogs between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
* The hot dog got its name in 1901 when sports cartoonist Ted Dorgan sketched vendors selling "dachshund sausages" at a baseball game in New York. He couldn't spell dachshund, so he called them "hot dogs."

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 29 20:10:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:10:52 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
Message-ID: 

*All* of Chris's exx. strike me as bizarre !  SOTA !  SOTA !

JL

Chris Waigl  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Chris Waigl
Subject: Re: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

>i think this is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for
>occurrence in this construction. that is, the maximum category is
>unmarked As denoting the positive quantitative scalar element, and
>there might be people who have the construction for all such As. but
>i'm not such a person. things like "is that all the clearer you can
>write?" and "is that all the clearer the weather gets around here?"
>and many others are all odd for me. my guess is that the best As for
>this construction are those that are "semantically central" -- if
>your language has any As at all, they will denote such properties
>(cue reference to dixon) -- and "everyday" (frequent, not technical
>or otherwise registrally/stylistically restricted, etc.). there's a
>nice little research project for someone here, i think.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

There's also "all the more NOUN", including one example from Mencken.
Here are a few more. (I have copied them over, for the links, to an
online wiki here:
http://palimpsest.lascribe.net/linglinks:all_the_comparative).

"All the ADJ/ADV-COMP" -- equiv "the ADJ/ADV-SUP" or "as ADJ/ADV-POS as"
(or not)

* If the above is all the more clearly you can express the idea, I doubt
it has congealed any more effectively in your mind. sci.space.shuttle
* If thatâs all the harder you can look, youâre not the prospector I
thought you were. alt.mining.recreational
* Next thing I know the band stopsâ¦ 10pm-ish. [â¦] The waitress said that
is all the later they ever play; is that true? midwestboatparty.com forum
* ask them if thatâs all the harder they can hit, followed with a
mumbled pussy after each hit thereafter rec.sport.fencing
* this is for a golfer that hits 2 greens a round and is within 30 ft
every time. not the question you asked but thatâs all the harder i
wanted to think. rec.sport.golf

"All the more NOUN"

* Geez, why even bother to post, if this is all the more info you can
provide? comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
* It gives 1.4X, which is all the more magnification you can get from
such a small lens and still not lose any image quality. rec.video
* Is this all the more life I can expect from a mirror in that location?
autocareforum.com
* Is that all the more sense you got, groovinâ one for that big ape!
Mencken, The American Language, Appendix 1: Specimens of the American
Vulgate, ch. 2: Baseball-American

Special (strange) cases

* The more people, the more non-military, the more you would normally be
at ease at a particular place, is all the more terrified you should be
to go there. rec.arts.disney.parks
* If I try to slide, and I havenât been sliding in practice, then I
miss. So now Iâve been sliding in practice. If I donât have to slide, I
donât. I feel that the slide takes more time. If I can just step into
it, thatâs all the earlier I can take the ball. Venus Williams
* If the sheeple are going to stampede, better now then November.
Besides, now that Iâve finished my power conversion, thatâs all the
earlier I can sell my portable generator for ten times what I paid.
misc.survivalism
* I donât think there is anything offensive about having gay couples on
television during family time. Maybe your children would ask questions,
but thatâs all the earlier to teach that there are all different kinds
of families. voy.com forum

Chris Waigl

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 29 20:19:30 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:19:30 -0700
Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
Message-ID: 

"He couldn't spell dachshund, so he called them 'hot dogs.'"

I can't spell "formidable," so from now on I'll call it "brontosaurus."

JL

bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did this TEN YEARS ago. I have never been credited in a July 4th newspaper article. So, now that Gerald Cohen and lectured on it and published a book, why should this year be any different?
...
...

Food

July Fourth weekend is approaching ... It's time for cookouts, sparklers and fun ; HOT DIGGITY-DOG; All-American weiner takes center stage on July's grill

SUE GLEITER
Of The Patriot-News
1,038 words
29 June 2005
Patriot-News
FINAL
D01
English
Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved.

Hot dog, it's July Fourth weekend. And that means it's time to crank up the grill.
The patriotic holiday is tops for grilling out and, according to experts, it's a time when hot dogs rule. During the three-day weekend, which is the biggest hot dog eating occasion of the year, it's estimated that 155 million franks will be consumed
Weber, the company that sells grills, recently did a survey and found out 86 percent of those surveyed have grilled hot dogs in the past year, second only to hamburgers. That's alot.
So what if hot dogs don't have much culinary cachet? Food snobs turn their noses up at them, and as far as cooking technique goes, hot dogs are a no-brainer.
But everyone agrees hot dogs go with summer cookouts. They're all- American and steeped in tradition.
So here we've assembled fun facts and tidbits, a guide to everything hot dogs.
* July is National Hot Dog Month. According to the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, Americans will consume 7 billion hot dogs between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
* The hot dog got its name in 1901 when sports cartoonist Ted Dorgan sketched vendors selling "dachshund sausages" at a baseball game in New York. He couldn't spell dachshund, so he called them "hot dogs."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun 29 20:38:23 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:38:23 -0400
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
Message-ID: 

For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
"Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.

-Wilson Gray

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun 29 20:52:18 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:52:18 -0700
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I've been hearing it for several years now.  I think the users were mostly
young people (who, of course, are still learning to talk like REAL people).

Peter Mc.

--On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:38 PM -0400 Wilson Gray
 wrote:

> For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
> replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
> someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
> "Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.
>
> -Wilson Gray

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 29 21:30:10 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:30:10 -0400
Subject: Ironically
Message-ID: 

Current usages of the word ironic almost seem to be oxymoronic with the
emphasis on the moronic to this hardly neutral observer.

Page Stephens

"I will not have a dictionary in this house which defines imply as a
synonym for infer." Nero Wolfe

> [Original Message]
> From: Jonathan Lighter 
> To: 
> Date: 6/28/2005 9:58:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Ironically
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: Ironically
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> It's hard to tell from the brief quotes, but many of the OED exx. Larry
lists seem to exemplify "paradoxically."  To my mind, paradox is rather
close to various forms of classical irony.  The examples that really
impress me are those, as in my previous post, that seem to have no
detectable relationship to "irony" of any kind.
>
> I suppose the fuzzy borderline betwen senses may be in the realm of
"coincidentally." But would the exx. of "seismic"  imaging and of the
painter who grew up in a city that later figured tangentially in one of his
paintings have seemed be of any interest whatsoever if the respective
comments had begun, "Coincidentally..." ?
>
> My stupid guess is that people who use this kind of "ironically" don't
understand much about "irony" and have simply absorbed the mannerism from
liberal arts professors who sort of do. (Who but liberal arts profs are
likely to point out many ironies in the first place?)  For users naive in
the ways of literature, philosophy, and history,  "ironically" is good
connector whose magic makes any sentence sound more impressive.
>
> End of cynical comment.
>
> JL
>
>
> Laurence Horn  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: Ironically
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> >I dunno, Alison. I hear sentence-initial "ironically" all the time
> >on live TV, and it rarely seems to draw attention to any real
> >"irony."
> >
> >Here's another ex., if I may paraphrase. (Have I posted this
> >before?) One local news reporter is introduced as having "come to
> >us from KRAP in Salt Lake City." Then he introduces a second
> >reporter by saying, "And joining the Action News Team for the frst
> >time tonight is Susie Newsie. Ironically, Susie grew up in Salt Lake
> >City."
> >
> >Ironic ? Or just surprisingly coincidental ? We report, etc.
> >
> >JL
>
> I would actually distinguish between your case, which is indeed
> glossable as 'surprisingly coincidental[ly]' (or maybe just
> 'coincidentally') and has been around for awhile, and the
> Alison/Lance cite, which is I think a still nother extension or
> broadening. I've been hearing the former use of "ironically" for
> some time; the latter I can't even begin to figure out.
>
> L
>
> P.S. Note the draft addition to the OED entry; I guess this entry
> subscribes to Jon's view that these extended uses ('curiously' as
> well as 'coincidentally') are all of a piece. I'm not sure what I
> would make of all these entries, though; some seem to be in the
> spirit of the traditional meaning, others may not be, but in some
> cases additional context would be needed to determine if (classical)
> irony is involved.
>
> ironically, adv.
> In weakened, typically parenthetical use, often opening a sentence:
> paradoxically, curiously, unexpectedly, coincidentally.
>
> 1907 E. WHARTON Fruit of Tree II. xii. 187 He had done very little
> with the opportunity... What he had done with it..had landed him,
> ironically enough, in the ugly impasse of a situation from which no
> issue seemed possible.
> 1947 Life 17 Nov. 11/2 One of the chief reasons for this marked-down
> bonanza is, ironically, the fact that Peru is economically less
> self-sufficient than many countries.
> 1968 Etc. June 186 Ironically, it will be the lower-class male who is
> most likely to be the first to achieve the freudian concept of sexual
> maturity.
> 1974 W. FOLEY Child in Forest II. ii. 84 My new master had..a
> patronising distaste for servants, and all the 'lower orders'.
> Ironically, he had married 'beneath him'.
> 1986 Today 9 July 9/1 The Yard was responding to claims that a
> Caribbean gang--ironically called The Yardies--has moved into
> London's Brixton area. 1997 B. ROWLANDS Which? Guide to Complementary
> Med. 153 Homeopaths believe that this succussion confers the
> therapeutic effect on the solution and that, ironically, the weaker
> the solution the more effective it is.
>
>
>
> >sagehen wrote:
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: sagehen
> >Subject: Re: Ironically
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> >
> >>Here's a paradigm case of "ironically" used to mean "surprisingly" (or
> >>maybe even "actually"?)with no evident "irony" intended.
> >>
> >>Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox & Friends_ about the
coming
> >>Tour de France and about a new Nike running shoe named after him.
> >>
> >>"And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on the [side of the]
shoe?"
> >>
> >>"Ironically, there are people who study color and what colors mean to
> >>people, and the yellow represents [the color of my jersey]."
> >>
> >>JL
> >~~~~~~~~
> >Probably Armstrong meant to draw attention to the irony of using a yellow
> >stripe -- symbol of cowardice -- as a feature of a product that was
> >supposed to benefit from association with his presumably courageous
> >pursuit of his outstanding achievements.
> >AM
> >
> >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 29 22:05:56 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:05:56 -0700
Subject: "all the faster" (in Latin too)
In-Reply-To: <42C2E03F.7030303@free.fr>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 29, 2005, at 10:54 AM, Chris Waigl wrote:

> There's also "all the more NOUN", including one example from Mencken.
> Here are a few more...

Erik Thomas (p. 257) says:

-----
      Crozier (1984 [AmSp59.310-31, "The Scotch-Irish Influence on
American English"]) believes that the _all the_ + comparative
construction originated with the _all the_ + substantive construction
found in most forms of standard English, as in _It's all the evidence
we need_.  In some dialects, the _all the_ + substantive construction
can also be used, with the meaning 'only', with the pronoun _one_,
and with singular forms of count nouns, such as _daughter_, with
which it is not used in standard English in the singular:
   5.  That's all the daughter he's got.
      According to Crozier, this extension continues in Ulster
English to the _all the_ + positive construction, as in his example,
_That's all the far he went_.  This construction is completely absent
in southern England, however.
      [p. 258] In the United States, the _all the_ + positive
construction is relatively uncommon and largely confined to the South...
      Far more frequent in the United States is the _all the_ +
comparative structure, which Crozier feels was an American innovation.
----

> ... "All the more NOUN"...

this would bring _all the_ *back* in combination with substantives.
the examples make me break out in asterisks, however.

Thomas says (p. 264) that

-----
a superlative can be used to modify a noun, whereas _all the_ +
comparative normally cannot be.  There is one possible exception to
this rule, though.  In my idiolect, the sentence
   12.  That's all the better of a shape he's in
can be reduced by the deletion of _of a_ to
   13.  That's all the better shape he's in
where _all the better_ becomes reanalyzed as a modifier of _shape_.
-----

not for me.  both 12 and 13 are awful for me, but from chris waigl's
examples it seems that there are those who would have no problem with
them.

lotsa variation here.

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 29 22:12:48 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:12:48 -0700
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:

> For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
> replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
> someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
> "Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.

ummm... wilson, back on 23 september, you asked me, on this list:

   Arnold, do you have "supposably" already? It's *very* common in BE.

and inaugurated a thread on "supposably", "assumably", and more,
including some google counts.

arnold

From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 29 22:24:28 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:24:28 -0400
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
Message-ID: 

Hopefully supposedly (supposably) isn't looked down on as much as hopefully
is although supposedly I would guess it is.

Page Stephens

> [Original Message]
> From: Arnold M. Zwicky 
> To: 
> Date: 6/29/2005 6:12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Who'd a thunk it?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
> Subject:      Re: Who'd a thunk it?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
> > For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
> > replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
> > someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
> > "Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.
>
> ummm... wilson, back on 23 september, you asked me, on this list:
>
>    Arnold, do you have "supposably" already? It's *very* common in BE.
>
> and inaugurated a thread on "supposably", "assumably", and more,
> including some google counts.
>
> arnold

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 29 22:34:35 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:34:35 -0500
Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 2:56 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
>
>
> I did this TEN YEARS ago. I have never been credited in a
> July 4th newspaper article. So, now that Gerald Cohen and
> lectured on it and published a book, why should this year be
> any different?
> ...

I'm guessing Barry won't have much use for this article:

Need mustard with your hot dog? Try the wienermobile
Daily Herald (Arlington Heights, IL)
April 9, 2005
Author: Susan Frissell

or

Hot dog! It's baseball season and grilling season
Tennessean, The (Nashville, TN)
April 25, 2005
Author: TAMMY ALGOOD

both of which repeat the Tad Dorgan trope.

From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 30 01:10:52 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:10:52 -0400
Subject: History of the OED (forwarded)
Message-ID: 

My colleague Peter Gilliver has asked me to post this on his behalf:

-----
I have recently begun work on a major commission to write a history of
the Oxford English Dictionary, to be published by OUP. I am planning to
cover the whole history of the project, from its beginnings in the late
1850s to the launch of OED Online; publication is not expected before
2015.

I would be pleased to hear from other scholars working in this
area, indeed from anyone with information to share which could
cast light on the history of the Dictionary.  I can be
contacted by email or by post at the address given below.

Thanks in anticipation.  (And I'm sorry to have missed many of you in
Boston.)

Best wishes

Peter Gilliver
Associate Editor, Oxford English Dictionary
Oxford University Press
Great Clarendon Street
Oxford OX2 6DP
United Kingdom
peter.gilliver at oup.com
-----

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 30 01:15:41 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:15:41 -0400
Subject: History of the OED (forwarded)
Message-ID: 

I don't mean this in a snippy way, but WHY would this be a 10 year project?
Serious question.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:10 PM
Subject: History of the OED (forwarded)

> My colleague Peter Gilliver has asked me to post this on his behalf:
>
> -----
> I have recently begun work on a major commission to write a history of
> the Oxford English Dictionary, to be published by OUP. I am planning to
> cover the whole history of the project, from its beginnings in the late
> 1850s to the launch of OED Online; publication is not expected before
> 2015.
>
> I would be pleased to hear from other scholars working in this
> area, indeed from anyone with information to share which could
> cast light on the history of the Dictionary.  I can be
> contacted by email or by post at the address given below.
>
> Thanks in anticipation.  (And I'm sorry to have missed many of you in
> Boston.)
>
> Best wishes
>
> Peter Gilliver
> Associate Editor, Oxford English Dictionary
> Oxford University Press
> Great Clarendon Street
> Oxford OX2 6DP
> United Kingdom
> peter.gilliver at oup.com
> -----
>

From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun 30 01:22:13 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:22:13 -0400
Subject: History of the OED (forwarded)
In-Reply-To: <003001c57d11$3bef1f10$3b631941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 09:15:41PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
> I don't mean this in a snippy way, but WHY would this be a 10 year project?
> Serious question.

The two main reasons are that this is to be a serious and
extensive academic history of the OED, and the amount of
materials involved are extremely vast; and that Peter will be
continuing to work on OED full-time during the writing
process, which will severely limit the amount of time he can
devote to this work.

Peter is not subscribed to this list, though, so I'd suggest
that if you have serious questions about the project you
e-mail him directly. (I'm cc'ing him on this message.)

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 30 01:24:46 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:24:46 -0400
Subject: History of the OED (forwarded)
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Jesse.

I had guessed that he had a full-time job and this was a side project.  That
is explanation enough.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: History of the OED (forwarded)

> On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 09:15:41PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
>> I don't mean this in a snippy way, but WHY would this be a 10 year
>> project?
>> Serious question.
>
> The two main reasons are that this is to be a serious and
> extensive academic history of the OED, and the amount of
> materials involved are extremely vast; and that Peter will be
> continuing to work on OED full-time during the writing
> process, which will severely limit the amount of time he can
> devote to this work.
>
> Peter is not subscribed to this list, though, so I'd suggest
> that if you have serious questions about the project you
> e-mail him directly. (I'm cc'ing him on this message.)
>
> Best,
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 30 01:32:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:32:16 -0400
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
In-Reply-To: <410-220056329222428484@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

At 6:24 PM -0400 6/29/05, Page Stephens wrote:
>Hopefully supposedly (supposably) isn't looked down on as much as hopefully
>is although supposedly I would guess it is.
>
>Page Stephens

"supposably" is at least as looked down on as "hopefully", although I
didn't count to see how many of the 14,300 google hits were devoted
to bemoaning the use of "supposably" by others.  Presumably even some
of those who grudgingly accept the latter because it is, after all,
the only adverb meaning what it does (given that "it is to be hoped"
doesn't count as an adverb), while "supposably" doesn't bring a lot
more to the table than "supposedly" is already sitting there with.

Larry

>
>>  [Original Message]
>>  From: Arnold M. Zwicky 
>>  To: 
>>  Date: 6/29/2005 6:12:52 PM
>>  Subject: Re: Who'd a thunk it?
>>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>  Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
>>  Subject:      Re: Who'd a thunk it?
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---
>>
>>  On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>
>>  > For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
>>  > replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
>>  > someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
>>  > "Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.
>>
>>  ummm... wilson, back on 23 september, you asked me, on this list:
>>
>>     Arnold, do you have "supposably" already? It's *very* common in BE.
>>
>>  and inaugurated a thread on "supposably", "assumably", and more,
>>  including some google counts.
>>
>>  arnold

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 30 01:35:05 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:35:05 -0400
Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
In-Reply-To: <8C74AFBADCC9A94-AA4-AFAF@MBLK-M31.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3:55 PM -0400 6/29/05, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>I did this TEN YEARS ago. I have never been credited in a July 4th
>newspaper article. So, now that Gerald Cohen and lectured on it and
>published a book, why should this year be any different?
>...
>...
>So here we've assembled fun facts and tidbits, a guide to everything hot dogs.
>* July is National Hot Dog Month. According to the National Hot Dog
>and Sausage Council, Americans will consume 7 billion hot dogs
>between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
>* The hot dog got its name in 1901 when sports cartoonist Ted Dorgan
>sketched vendors selling "dachshund sausages" at a baseball game in
>New York. He couldn't spell dachshund, so he called them "hot dogs."

You'd think they'd at least have the courtesy to admit they've
assembled some fun "facts"

L

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 06:05:55 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:05:55 -0400
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
In-Reply-To: <46ug4j$4v6hqf@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Damn! I must have had a senior moment! Now that I'm reminded, of course
the memory comes flooding back. Back in the 'Fifties, an old guy -
old?! he was approximately my present age and I don't feel old! - gave
me some sage advice. On several occasions, he said to me, "Don't get
old, son! Don't get old!" I didn't pay  much attention, since, of
course, I knew that I would never get old. Had I but listened! Oh,
well.

-Wilson

On Jun 29, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
> Subject:      Re: Who'd a thunk it?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>> For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
>> replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
>> someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
>> "Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.
>
> ummm... wilson, back on 23 september, you asked me, on this list:
>
>    Arnold, do you have "supposably" already? It's *very* common in BE.
>
> and inaugurated a thread on "supposably", "assumably", and more,
> including some google counts.
>
> arnold
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 06:22:06 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:22:06 -0400
Subject: Who'd a thunk it?
In-Reply-To: <46ug4j$4vjtni@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 29, 2005, at 9:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: Who'd a thunk it?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 6:24 PM -0400 6/29/05, Page Stephens wrote:
>> Hopefully supposedly (supposably) isn't looked down on as much as
>> hopefully
>> is although supposedly I would guess it is.
>>
>> Page Stephens
>
> "supposably" is at least as looked down on as "hopefully", although I
> didn't count to see how many of the 14,300 google hits were devoted
> to bemoaning the use of "supposably" by others.  Presumably even some
> of those who grudgingly accept the latter because it is, after all,
> the only adverb meaning what it does (given that "it is to be hoped"
> doesn't count as an adverb), while "supposably" doesn't bring a lot
> more to the table than "supposedly" is already sitting there with.
>
> Larry
>

FWIW, I think that "supposably" sounds "ignunt." But I've been in love
with "hopefully" from the day that we met. I've never understood why
some people wish to argue against its use. In fact, I've never even
understood the points of those arguments. Different strokes for
different folks, to coin a phrase.

-Wilson

>>
>>>  [Original Message]
>>>  From: Arnold M. Zwicky 
>>>  To: 
>>>  Date: 6/29/2005 6:12:52 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: Who'd a thunk it?
>>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>>  Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
>>>  Subject:      Re: Who'd a thunk it?
>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>> ---
>>>
>>>  On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>
>>>> For decades, I've been using the non-word "supposably" as a jocular
>>>> replacement for "supposedly." Today, for the first time, I heard
>>>> someone seriously use "supposably." It was a woman with the surname
>>>> "Zanquis" from Hartford, CT, on the Judge Judy Show.
>>>
>>>  ummm... wilson, back on 23 september, you asked me, on this list:
>>>
>>>     Arnold, do you have "supposably" already? It's *very* common in
>>> BE.
>>>
>>>  and inaugurated a thread on "supposably", "assumably", and more,
>>>  including some google counts.
>>>
>>>  arnold
>

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 30 06:28:42 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:28:42 -0700
Subject: lao lao, lao hai, lao khao
Message-ID: 

It appears this didn't go through, so I'm sending it again...

Alcohol from Laos, sometimes capitalized or italicized, sometimes not.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

In the July/August 2005 edition of Archaeology, "Plain of Jars" by Karen J.
Coates uses lao lao, italicized:

"So I can understand lots and lots of lao lao on a grave site."
-----
>From February 12, 2005, by Nate
(http://tblogs.bootsnall.com/borderlines/archives/008332.shtml):

We got to see three separate sites where the jars were located, as well as
an old Russian tank and a village where we were shown how they make the
potent Lao lao (rice whiskey).
-----
Undated, QT Luong(?)
(http://www.terragalleria.com/theravada/laos/pak-ou/picture.laos4673.html)

Making of the Lao Lao, strong local liquor in Ban Xang Hai village.
-----
>From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_cuisine#Beverages)

There are two general types of traditional alcoholic beverages, both
produced from rice: lao hai and lao lao. Lao hai means
jar alcohol and is served from an earthen jar. It is communally and
competitively drunk through straws at festive occasions. It can be likened
to sake in appearance and flavor. Lao lao or Lao alcohol is
more like a whiskey. It is also called lao khao or, in English,
white alcohol.
-----
-----
2001, by Walkter (http://www.drinkingsociety.com/khao.htm)

Made from distilled rice, "Lao Khao is Thailand's moonshine.
(There's probably supposed to be a quotation mark after khao.--ed.)
-----
September 2002, Toolbox Media Co., Ltd.
(http://www.farangonline.com/p_How_No_Lao_Khao407.asp?origin=The%20Big%20Rea
d)

For Junyee is one of hundreds of moonshiners who inhabit the towns and
villages of the far northern province of Chiang Rai, and we're about to
start cooking a fresh batch of the eye-glazingly potent, and strictly
illegal, local firewater known as lao khao (rice whiskey).
-----
-----
Apr. 26, 2003, The San Francisco Chronicle, "Soused in Laos or How I lost my
lunch so my host could save face" by Kevin Fagan
(http://www.azcentral.com/home/wine/articles/0426sousedinlaos26.html)

We had to sit in a circle on his floor and drink Lao Hai until we could
drink no more.
-----
2002, Laos National Tourism Authority
(http://www.asia-planet.net/laos/cuisine.htm)
Lao Hai (the jars of alcohol) are not only used as the custom or tradition
but they use it for worship the ghost, families rites or traditional
festival. Lao Hai and boiled chicken are the main components for any
ceremonies.
-----
January 09, 2005, The Boat Landing Guest House and Restaurant
(http://www.theboatlanding.laopdr.com/boat.html)
In some villages they may offer you "Lao Hai" - a wine made from fermented
rice in a jar which they will add unboiled river water. Ask the villagers to
boil water or offer to add your own bottled water  to the jar if you wish to
try the fermented rice wine with safe water. Lao Hai is drunk using reed
straws and can be a great way to have a party with the villagers.

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 30 06:47:08 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:47:08 EDT
Subject: Crash (v.) ("Wedding Crashers" & "Gate Crashers")(1920)
Message-ID: 

CRASH
...
A new Vince Vaughn movie is called "Wedding Crashers." HDAS has "crash"  from
1921, "crasher" from 1922, and "gate-crasher" from 1921 (That would be the
infamous dachshund non-speller, "Ted" Dorgan).
...
...
...
(_WWW.IMDB.COM_ (http://www.IMDB.COM) )

Taglines for
Wedding Crashers (_2005_ (http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2005) )
Hide your bridesmaids.
Life's a party. Crash it.
...
...
_Bits  of New York Life_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513611732&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1120113784&
clientId=65882)
O O M'INTYRE. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 8,
1920. p. 8 (1 page) :
Along Broadway they are known as Gate Crashers. A Gate Crasher is a citizen
whose one aim in life is to get into some sort of entertainment for nothing.
He  is generally a soft-collared, soft-hatted, soft-mannered fellow, who goes
about  other people's business in a way so delicate that makes other people
think the  business does not  belong to them, after all. They fawn over
journalists  and call David Belasco "Dave"--behind his back, of course.
...
...
_The  Sick Pearl; INSTALLMENT XI. OTHER TIMES, OTHER DANCES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=431899992&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp
e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1120113011&clientId=65882)
BERTA RUCK. Chicago Daily Tribune  (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 21, 1924.
p. 21 (1 page)
("crashing the party" is here somewhere--ed.)
...
...
     _The Coshocton Tribune_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Rvj45z7SpqiKID/6NLMW2snbptNuSRMeLLqLGfg1KoDHiBf35r4+zA==)  _Thursday, January
08, 1920_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)  _Coshocton,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="gate+crasher"+AND+cityid:
6316+AND+stateid:73+AND+range:1753-1921)   _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="gate+crasher"+AND+stateid:73+AND+range:1753-1921)
...known of  MaryfaniJ- 'GATE Craj-bers. A GATE CRASHER Is a1 I  citizen whose
one..
...
...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
BROOKLYN BARRISTER
...
Not much on this. Who would name a food after lawyers?
...
...
_http://menlovian.blogspot.com/2005/04/best-of-bls.html_
(http://menlovian.blogspot.com/2005/04/best-of-bls.html)
best bet for lunch at school: this one was another close  call, but the best
of BLS award goes to a very special panini called the  brooklyn barrister.
this hot concoction consists of mounds of  gooey mozzarella, sliced and breaded
chicken breast, and tons of sweet tomato  sauce, all sandwiched between two
grilled pieces of pita. it's a consistent  crowd-pleaser, and when paired with
its good friend the kosher dill, it's sure  to fill your stomach in style.
here's to you, brooklyn  barrister!

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 07:01:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:01:08 -0400
Subject: "Scown"
Message-ID: 

Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its meaning
is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
humans as a mild insult and of animals.

Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!

Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a dog/of
a dog chasing a rabbit

-Wilson Gray

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 30 07:13:39 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:13:39 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= "Scown"
Message-ID: 

Wilson, Go to bed! Think of your health!

In a message dated 6/30/05 3:01:18 AM, wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:

> Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its meaning
> is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
> humans as a mild insult and of animals.
>
> Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!
>
> Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a dog/of
> a dog chasing a rabbit
>
> -Wilson Gray
>

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 30 08:23:38 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:23:38 EDT
Subject: "Scown"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 6/30/05 3:01:18 AM, wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:

> Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its meaning
> is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
> humans as a mild insult and of animals.
>
> Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!
>
> Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a dog/of
> a dog chasing a rabbit
>
> -Wilson Gray
>

This looks like no more than a clipping from SCOUNDREL. Who used it? When? I
didn't check the OED -- did you? What else did you check? Google turned up
nothing but an 1880 word (Northumberian, as I rdecall) for a switch (such as one
might use to spank a child): <
http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/durhamdialect/heslop.htm>.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 09:30:28 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:30:28 -0400
Subject: Crash (v.) ("Wedding Crashers" & "Gate Crashers")(1920)
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:47:08 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>CRASH
>...
>A new Vince Vaughn movie is called "Wedding Crashers." HDAS has "crash"
>from 1921, "crasher" from 1922, and "gate-crasher" from 1921 (That would
>be the infamous dachshund non-speller, "Ted" Dorgan).

[snip 1920 cites]

-----
1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 31 May 14/4 Had no trouble crashing the gate,
as the doorkeeper thought he was a new kind of turtle.
["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 09:47:35 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:47:35 -0400
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

"Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently
discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:

http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11

HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).

-----
1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's a
crippled loving cup that only has one handle.
["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 10:00:38 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:00:38 -0400
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:47:35 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>"Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently
>discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:
>
>http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11
>
>HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).
>
>-----
>1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
>beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's
>a crippled loving cup that only has one handle.
>["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
>-----

Turns out this was one of Baer's favorite epithets (he was also partial to
calling people "sapp").  Here are two more cites from his column:

-----
1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 26 May 8/4 Scientists still trying to dope out
how a three-cushion beezark can miss a ball by 11 feet on a 10-foot table.
-----
1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 29 May 14/4 Saddest thing outside of a wet
straw hat is to marry an old beezark for his money and not get it.
-----

Did Baer coin it, or just popularize it?

--Ben Zimmer

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun 30 10:16:53 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:16:53 -0700
Subject: lao lao, lao hai, lao khao
Message-ID: 

My apologies if this is already posted; having trouble posting for some
reason...

Alcohol from Laos, sometimes capitalized or italicized, sometimes not.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

In the July/August 2005 edition of Archaeology, "Plain of Jars" by Karen J.
Coates uses lao lao, italicized:

"So I can understand lots and lots of lao lao on a grave site."
-----
>From February 12, 2005, by Nate
(http://tblogs.bootsnall.com/borderlines/archives/008332.shtml):

We got to see three separate sites where the jars were located, as well as
an old Russian tank and a village where we were shown how they make the
potent Lao lao (rice whiskey).
-----
Undated, QT Luong(?)
(http://www.terragalleria.com/theravada/laos/pak-ou/picture.laos4673.html)

Making of the Lao Lao, strong local liquor in Ban Xang Hai village.
-----
>From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_cuisine#Beverages)

There are two general types of traditional alcoholic beverages, both
produced from rice: lao hai and lao lao. Lao hai means
jar alcohol and is served from an earthen jar. It is communally and
competitively drunk through straws at festive occasions. It can be likened
to sake in appearance and flavor. Lao lao or Lao alcohol is
more like a whiskey. It is also called lao khao or, in English,
white alcohol.
-----
-----
2001, by Walkter (http://www.drinkingsociety.com/khao.htm)

Made from distilled rice, "Lao Khao is Thailand's moonshine.
(There's probably supposed to be a quotation mark after khao.--ed.)
-----
September 2002, Toolbox Media Co., Ltd.
(http://www.farangonline.com/p_How_No_Lao_Khao407.asp?origin=The%20Big%20Rea
d)

For Junyee is one of hundreds of moonshiners who inhabit the towns and
villages of the far northern province of Chiang Rai, and we're about to
start cooking a fresh batch of the eye-glazingly potent, and strictly
illegal, local firewater known as lao khao (rice whiskey).
-----
-----
Apr. 26, 2003, The San Francisco Chronicle, "Soused in Laos or How I lost my
lunch so my host could save face" by Kevin Fagan
(http://www.azcentral.com/home/wine/articles/0426sousedinlaos26.html)

We had to sit in a circle on his floor and drink Lao Hai until we could
drink no more.
-----
2002, Laos National Tourism Authority
(http://www.asia-planet.net/laos/cuisine.htm)
Lao Hai (the jars of alcohol) are not only used as the custom or tradition
but they use it for worship the ghost, families rites or traditional
festival. Lao Hai and boiled chicken are the main components for any
ceremonies.
-----
January 09, 2005, The Boat Landing Guest House and Restaurant
(http://www.theboatlanding.laopdr.com/boat.html)
In some villages they may offer you "Lao Hai" - a wine made from fermented
rice in a jar which they will add unboiled river water. Ask the villagers to
boil water or offer to add your own bottled water  to the jar if you wish to
try the fermented rice wine with safe water. Lao Hai is drunk using reed
straws and can be a great way to have a party with the villagers.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 11:30:58 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:30:58 -0400
Subject: smackers = dollars (1918)
Message-ID: 

OED2 has 1920 for "smackers" in the monetary sense.

-----
1918 _Chicago Tribune_ 13 Jan. V2/4 "I'm feelin' pretty good," said the
boy. "A thousan' smackers is a fancy hunk o' change, even for me."
-----
1918 _Chicago Tribune_ 27 Jan. V5/4 Jus' so's not to have no bad feelin's
an' no bother goin' in courts an' that kind o' stuff, I'll give you a thou
-- one cold, clear thousand smackers.
-----

Both of the above cites are from short stories by Jack Lait ("The Tallow
Youth" and "The Curse of an Aching Heart", both copyright 1917). Bugs Baer
also used the expression frequently in his columns in 1918-19, e.g.:

-----
1918 _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln, Neb.) 26 Dec. 10/4 The old slotted
eyed bird stepped into America when the stepping was good, grabbed off a
million smackers and abdicated back to the Formosan Islands before they
raised the price of eggs on him.
-----
1918 _Evening State Journal_ (Lincoln, Neb.) 26 Dec. 10/4 Just lamp John
Rockefeller. ... He has a billion smackers but no appetite.
-----
1919 _Bridgeport Standard Telegram_ 22 Apr. 16/1 If you want to get rid of
your wife, why waste a thousand smackers on a divorce?
-----
1919 _Bridgeport Standard Telegram_ 31 May 18/5 They hooked his mother for
$40,000 and his son brought 12,000 smackers.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 11:41:43 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:41:43 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

No way to be certain, but Baer may well have coined it. It's rare in print, and I've never heard it used.

Am surprised to find hundreds of Googits on "Bezark" as a surname.  The slang term would thus appear to be an arbitrary application of this.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: beezark (1919)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:47:35 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
wrote:

>"Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently
>discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:
>
>http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11
>
>HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).
>
>-----
>1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
>beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's
>a crippled loving cup that only has one handle.
>["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
>-----

Turns out this was one of Baer's favorite epithets (he was also partial to
calling people "sapp"). Here are two more cites from his column:

-----
1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 26 May 8/4 Scientists still trying to dope out
how a three-cushion beezark can miss a ball by 11 feet on a 10-foot table.
-----
1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 29 May 14/4 Saddest thing outside of a wet
straw hat is to marry an old beezark for his money and not get it.
-----

Did Baer coin it, or just popularize it?

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 11:46:57 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:46:57 -0400
Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
Message-ID: 

* song-plugger (OED2 1923)

1907 _Washington Post_ 14 Jul. (Magazine) 2/6 But vaudeville people with
any desire to keep up in the first rank must avoid the reputation that
comes to 'song pluggers.'

* song-plugging (OED2 1927)

1916 _Fitchburg Daily Sentinel_ (Mass.) 7 Oct. 3[?]/3 Song plugging was
given a new exemplification in this city Friday night.

1917 _Oakland Tribune_ 17 Sep. 5/2 However, he doesn't appeal to his
audiences as much with the cycles any more, relying rather upon ... a
song-plugging pair, who do their work real well.

1918 _Chicago Tribune_ 27 Jan. V4/2 That is the highest and least tainted
manifestation of that little known, unsung institution called "song
plugging."

--Ben Zimmer

From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 12:00:08 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:00:08 -0700
Subject: "Scown"
In-Reply-To: <1adffc9c13c961d25333ea131debdd12@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

It sounds to me like the AAE version of 'scoundrel.'

Wilson Gray  wrote:
Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its meaning
is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
humans as a mild insult and of animals.

Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!

Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a dog/of
a dog chasing a rabbit

-Wilson Gray

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 30 12:06:11 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:06:11 -0400
Subject: History of the OED (forwarded)
Message-ID: 

I just have one question. Where in the hell can I find an editor who will
give me ten days much less ten years to complete a project?

Yours in envy,

Page Stephens

> [Original Message]
> From: Sam Clements 
> To: 
> Date: 6/29/2005 9:24:53 PM
> Subject: Re: History of the OED (forwarded)
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Sam Clements 
> Subject:      Re: History of the OED (forwarded)
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> Thanks, Jesse.
>
> I had guessed that he had a full-time job and this was a side project.
That
> is explanation enough.
>
> Sam Clements
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jesse Sheidlower" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: History of the OED (forwarded)
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 09:15:41PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
> >> I don't mean this in a snippy way, but WHY would this be a 10 year
> >> project?
> >> Serious question.
> >
> > The two main reasons are that this is to be a serious and
> > extensive academic history of the OED, and the amount of
> > materials involved are extremely vast; and that Peter will be
> > continuing to work on OED full-time during the writing
> > process, which will severely limit the amount of time he can
> > devote to this work.
> >
> > Peter is not subscribed to this list, though, so I'd suggest
> > that if you have serious questions about the project you
> > e-mail him directly. (I'm cc'ing him on this message.)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Jesse Sheidlower
> > OED
> >

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 12:25:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:25:38 -0700
Subject: "ply" = "to hawk"
Message-ID: 

Absent from OED is this, possibly catachrestic, use of "to ply" :

2005 SignOnSanDiego.com (June 29) [ http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20050629-0500-arts-ripper.html  ] To the annoyance of local residents, the summer brings a surge in tourists to Whitechapel district, where blood from slaughterhouses once ran down the cobbled streets and around 40,000 prostitutes plied their wares by gas light.

Undoubtedly a blend of "plied their trade" and "hawked their wares."

JL

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 30 13:36:23 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:36:23 -0400
Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
Message-ID: 

Unless I am mistaken song plugger could be used in two different senses.

The first was a person who worked for a company which sold sheet music.

"In the 1910s and 1920s, if you went into a music store to buy sheet music
you would likely find a song plugger�a pianist and singer who would perform
songs for you in the same way we preview CDs in a record store today. If
you had walked into Jerome H. Remick & Company (one of the famous "Tin Pan
Alley" companies) in 1915, that song plugger might well have been the young
George Gershwin. From this humble beginning, Gershwin went on to become
both the best-known composer of popular music and the most popular composer
of concert music in America."
http://www.wwnorton.com/enjoy/shorter/composers/gershwin.htm

The sense in which Benjamin's quotes use it is somewhat different in that
it deals with vaudevillians who plugged songs in their acts. This was also
common and is related to a similar phenomenon which involved a person who
wrote a song and then found some vaudevillian or early recording artist who
would perform it in return for getting their name on the song and a
percentage of the profits. Some times this merely meant that the title
sheet would say as performed by but other times the performer if they were
famous enough might be able to demand that they be listed as a coauthor
with their name listed first.

As a result I rarely depend on any information from the sheet covers when I
am attempting to discover who wrote a song but if a famous performer's name
appears first I take it with a grain or mountain of salt.

Page Stephens

> [Original Message]
> From: Benjamin Zimmer 
> To: 
> Date: 6/30/2005 7:46:57 AM
> Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> * song-plugger (OED2 1923)
>
> 1907 _Washington Post_ 14 Jul. (Magazine) 2/6 But vaudeville people with
> any desire to keep up in the first rank must avoid the reputation that
> comes to 'song pluggers.'
>
> * song-plugging (OED2 1927)
>
> 1916 _Fitchburg Daily Sentinel_ (Mass.) 7 Oct. 3[?]/3 Song plugging was
> given a new exemplification in this city Friday night.
>
> 1917 _Oakland Tribune_ 17 Sep. 5/2 However, he doesn't appeal to his
> audiences as much with the cycles any more, relying rather upon ... a
> song-plugging pair, who do their work real well.
>
> 1918 _Chicago Tribune_ 27 Jan. V4/2 That is the highest and least tainted
> manifestation of that little known, unsung institution called "song
> plugging."
>
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer

From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 13:56:28 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:56:28 -0700
Subject: Ironically
In-Reply-To: <20050628115638.54242.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

The irony, if there is any, is naming a running shoe
after Lance, but that doesn't seem to be what he is
speaking of.

--- Jonathan Lighter  wrote:

> Here's a paradigm case of  "ironically" used to mean
> "surprisingly" (or maybe even "actually"?)with no
> evident "irony" intended.
>
> Lance Armstrong was being interviewed on _Fox &
> Friends_ about the coming Tour de France and about a
> new Nike running shoe named after him.
>
> "And what is the meaning of this yellow stripe on
> the [side of the] shoe?"
>
> "Ironically, there are people who study color and
> what colors mean to people, and the yellow
> represents [the color of my jersey]."

James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
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From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 30 15:12:45 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:12:45 -0400
Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
Message-ID: 

Interesting topic, Ben,

I have no idea who first coined the term song plugger but the occupation
goes back to almost the invention of the printing press and the broadside
ballad.

Sixteenth Century Ballads: A work in progress
.. neither is there anie tune or stroke which may be sung or plaide on
instruments, which hath not some poetical ditties framed according to the
numbers thereof: some to Rogero, some to Trenchmore, ... to Galliardes, to
Pavines, to Iygges, to Brawles, to all manner of tunes which everie Fidler
knowes better then myself.'
William Webbe, Discourse of English Poetrie, 1586

Introduction
Much attention is paid to post-1600 ballads, both traditional and
broadsides, but only a few sixteenth century ballads are known. Of the ones
which are known, most are not printed with the lyrics and tunes together,
so are not very accessible to the casual reader. The goal of this project
is to produce a collection of "interesting" ballads from before 1600,
containing sheet music and lyrics, both in their original form, and in a
form intelligible to a modern listener.
Details about the key sources can be found in the bibliography of early
music materials; Livingston and Simpson are excellent secondary sources,
while transcriptions of the words to the ballads are found in sources such
as Collmann and Lilly, which were printed in the Victorian era.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/ballads.html

Page Stephens

> [Original Message]
> From: Page Stephens 
> To: American Dialect Society 
> Date: 6/30/2005 9:36:22 AM
> Subject: RE: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
>
> Unless I am mistaken song plugger could be used in two different senses.
>
> The first was a person who worked for a company which sold sheet music.
>
> "In the 1910s and 1920s, if you went into a music store to buy sheet
music you would likely find a song plugger�a pianist and singer who would
perform songs for you in the same way we preview CDs in a record store
today. If you had walked into Jerome H. Remick & Company (one of the famous
"Tin Pan Alley" companies) in 1915, that song plugger might well have been
the young George Gershwin. From this humble beginning, Gershwin went on to
become both the best-known composer of popular music and the most popular
composer of concert music in America."
http://www.wwnorton.com/enjoy/shorter/composers/gershwin.htm
>
> The sense in which Benjamin's quotes use it is somewhat different in that
it deals with vaudevillians who plugged songs in their acts. This was also
common and is related to a similar phenomenon which involved a person who
wrote a song and then found some vaudevillian or early recording artist who
would perform it in return for getting their name on the song and a
percentage of the profits. Some times this merely meant that the title
sheet would say as performed by but other times the performer if they were
famous enough might be able to demand that they be listed as a coauthor
with their name listed first.
>
> As a result I rarely depend on any information from the sheet covers when
I am attempting to discover who wrote a song but if a famous performer's
name appears first I take it with a grain or mountain of salt.
>
> Page Stephens
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Benjamin Zimmer 
> > To: 
> > Date: 6/30/2005 7:46:57 AM
> > Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> > Subject:      song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> >
> > * song-plugger (OED2 1923)
> >
> > 1907 _Washington Post_ 14 Jul. (Magazine) 2/6 But vaudeville people with
> > any desire to keep up in the first rank must avoid the reputation that
> > comes to 'song pluggers.'
> >
> > * song-plugging (OED2 1927)
> >
> > 1916 _Fitchburg Daily Sentinel_ (Mass.) 7 Oct. 3[?]/3 Song plugging was
> > given a new exemplification in this city Friday night.
> >
> > 1917 _Oakland Tribune_ 17 Sep. 5/2 However, he doesn't appeal to his
> > audiences as much with the cycles any more, relying rather upon ... a
> > song-plugging pair, who do their work real well.
> >
> > 1918 _Chicago Tribune_ 27 Jan. V4/2 That is the highest and least
tainted
> > manifestation of that little known, unsung institution called "song
> > plugging."
> >
> >
> >
> > --Ben Zimmer

From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun 30 15:46:38 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:46:38 -0400
Subject: FYI: "Hot dog" wrong again (6-29-2005)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> At 3:55 PM -0400 6/29/05, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> I did this TEN YEARS ago. I have never been credited in a July 4th
>> newspaper article. So, now that Gerald Cohen and lectured on it and
>> published a book, why should this year be any different?

I think the best approach to getting your the word on wieners out to
the world would be to issue your own press release every year about
two weeks before July 4.

Better, you should contact the IFOCE (the International Federation of
Competitive Eating), which runs the Coney Island eating contests (and
many others elsewhere) with a summary of your findings, written in an
inverted pyramid style, that you grant them free permission to use in
any of their press materials, and a copy of the full research book-
thingy. Since the IFOCE is above all a marketing company, I think
they could spread your message quite nicely for you (although it is
probably too late this year).

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.og

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Jun 30 15:53:15 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:53:15 -0400
Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
Message-ID: 

Page Stephens cites:

"In the 1910s and 1920s, if you went into a music store to buy sheet music
you would likely find a song pluggeróa pianist and singer who would perform
songs for you in the same way we preview CDs in a record store today.(..)
~~~~~~~~~
This practice was still alive & well in the 30s & 40s in Woolworths,
Kresges ( & probably sim.), where sheet music of currently popular songs
was sold at 35c ea., or 3/1$.  If the piano bench was vacant the customer
could try his own hand.
A. Murie

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 17:22:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:22:14 -0400
Subject: song-plugger (1907), song-plugging (1916)
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:36:23 -0400, Page Stephens  wrote:

>Unless I am mistaken song plugger could be used in two different senses.
>
>The first was a person who worked for a company which sold sheet music.
>
>"In the 1910s and 1920s, if you went into a music store to buy sheet
>music you would likely find a song pluggera pianist and singer who
>would perform songs for you in the same way we preview CDs in a record
>store today. If you had walked into Jerome H. Remick & Company (one of
>the famous "Tin Pan Alley" companies) in 1915, that song plugger might
>well have been the young George Gershwin. From this humble beginning,
>Gershwin went on to become both the best-known composer of popular
>music and the most popular composer of concert music in America."
>http://www.wwnorton.com/enjoy/shorter/composers/gershwin.htm
>
>The sense in which Benjamin's quotes use it is somewhat different in
>that it deals with vaudevillians who plugged songs in their acts. This
>was also common and is related to a similar phenomenon which involved a
>person who wrote a song and then found some vaudevillian or early
>recording artist who would perform it in return for getting their name
>on the song and a percentage of the profits.

Good point, but I think only the 1907 cite uses "song-plugger" to refer to
a vaudevillian who gets paid by a publisher to perform a song:

>>1907 _Washington Post_ 14 Jul. (Magazine) 2/6 But vaudeville people
>>with any desire to keep up in the first rank must avoid the reputation
>>that comes to 'song pluggers.'

In the later cites, the "plugger" is not the performer but the person
employed by the publisher to lobby on the song's behalf. This practice is
vividly described in the short story by Jack Lait containing the 1918 cite
that I gave:

-----
1918 _Chicago Tribune_ 27 Jan. V4/2 ["The Curse of an Aching Heart: The
Song Writer Finally Got What Was Coming to Him in Royalties." by Jack
Lait, copyright 1917]
The theater is an indispensable ally of the song factory, for it is on the
stage that songs are "made" and popularized. One headliner can sell a
million copies of a likely ditty by singing it one season; and the
vaudeville canaries collect thousands of dollars as brigandage for singing
the "numbers" that they select; I have known one to draw $300 every week
from six publishers at $50 every week from six publishers at $50 each, for
as many songs that she used in her repertoire.
That is the highest and least tainted manifestation of that little known,
unsung institution called "song plugging." It employs thousands of men and
women. The smallest of the penny ante publishers has a dozen. They haunt
dressing rooms of "small time" variety houses, importuning, arguing,
bribing to get singers to "do" their songs. ...
>From two bits to a threat, from a promise to a bank roll, every instrument
that can be of effect is used by the pluggers to induce, force, or
persuade performers to advertise their goods by displaying them vocally,
instrumentally, or in any manner in which a song may be called to the
attention of an ear that has 10 cents with which to buy a copy next day.
...
More than a million songs, probably, have been published in this country,
and every one of them has been "plugged" somewhat as described, for even
the more ethical publishers maintain standing corps of pluggers to
interest the "hicks" in the theatrical bush leagues, who are accustomed to
having it done thus.
-----

And this quote suggests a more nuanced typology of song shillers:

-----
1917 _N.Y. Times_ 23 Dec. X6/1 ["The Argot of Vaudeville"]
The men who endeavor to interest the artists in songs back stage are "song
runners," and the men "planted" in the audience to applaud are "song
boosters" and "song pluggers." The "boosters" are the enthusiasts who join
in choruses or softly whistle choruses, while the "pluggers" specialize in
wild applause.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 30 17:53:37 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:37 -0500
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

My guess is it's from "beserk." For the vowel in "-zark" cf. "varsity" from "(uni)versity.

Gerald Cohen

* * * *

Original message from Benjamin Zimmer, 6/30/05:
> "Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:
>
> http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11
>
> HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).
>
> -----
> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
> beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's a crippled loving cup that only has one handle. ["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
> -----
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
>
>

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 30 17:57:15 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:57:15 -0500
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
Message-ID: 

Whoops. Insted of "beserk" make that spelling "berserk."

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent:         Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:53 PM
> Subject:           Re: beezark (1919)
>
> My guess is it's from "beserk." For the vowel in "-zark" cf. "varsity" from "(uni)versity.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 30 18:05:16 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:05:16 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 30, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Gerald Cohen wrote:

> Whoops. Insted of "beserk" make that spelling "berserk."

"geezer" might be somewhere in there too.

arnold

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 30 18:23:33 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:23:33 -0400
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Whoops. Insted of "beserk" make that spelling "berserk."
>
>Gerald Cohen

unless you're in Beserkley

L

>
>>  ----------
>>  From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
>>  Sent:         Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:53 PM
>>  Subject:           Re: beezark (1919)
>>
>>  My guess is it's from "beserk." For the vowel in "-zark" cf.
>>"varsity" from "(uni)versity.
>>
>>  Gerald Cohen
>>
>>

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 30 18:34:18 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:34:18 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)
In-Reply-To: <20050630114143.80237.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

I'm trying to square the comments so far with my only previous encounter
with the word.  In one of my favorite books as a child, Secret of the
Ancient Oak, a large-format book with stunning illustrations by Wolo,
there's a character named Bezark (or Beezark) the Snifferpuss, who guards a
strategic gate that the main character, a monkey named Sir Archibald, must
pass on his quest to retrieve the king's crown.  Bezark is female and has
feline features.  Sir Archibald expresses surprise that she knew he was
coming, and she says, "I can smell 'em coming.  If I like 'em, I let 'em
through.  If I don't, I eat 'em."  Why Bezark, I wonder?  Maybe the author
(whose name I can't remember) heard the word or the surname and just liked
the sound of it.

Peter

--On Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:41 AM -0700 Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

> No way to be certain, but Baer may well have coined it. It's rare in
> print, and I've never heard it used.
>
> Am surprised to find hundreds of Googits on "Bezark" as a surname.  The
> slang term would thus appear to be an arbitrary application of this.
>
> JL
>
> Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: beezark (1919)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:47:35 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
> wrote:
>
>> "Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently
>> discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:
>>
>> http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11
>>
>> HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).
>>
>> -----
>> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
>> beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's
>> a crippled loving cup that only has one handle.
>> ["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
>> -----
>
> Turns out this was one of Baer's favorite epithets (he was also partial to
> calling people "sapp"). Here are two more cites from his column:
>
> -----
> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 26 May 8/4 Scientists still trying to dope out
> how a three-cushion beezark can miss a ball by 11 feet on a 10-foot table.
> -----
> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 29 May 14/4 Saddest thing outside of a wet
> straw hat is to marry an old beezark for his money and not get it.
> -----
>
> Did Baer coin it, or just popularize it?
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 18:55:50 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:55:50 -0400
Subject: "Scown"
In-Reply-To: <46ug4j$50er7f@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

OED gives "scowner" as a variant of "scunner," of persons: a nuisance,
a pest, a good-for-nothing. No example of this as applying to animals.

"Scown" is a traditional "street" word in East Texas BE. Everybody is
familiar with it, nobody uses it in writing - hence, it has no spelling
- or in polite conversation. It's "low-class," but not obscene. I've
never heard it used outside of the so-called "Ark-La-Tex" region.
However, since I didn't do much traveling when I lived in that area -
I've been to, e.g. Hope, AR, but I've never been to anyplace at all in
Louisiana - I was just wondering whether anyone else with Southern
roots was familiar with it.

-Wilson

On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:23 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Re: "Scown"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated 6/30/05 3:01:18 AM, wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
>
>
>> Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its
>> meaning
>> is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
>> humans as a mild insult and of animals.
>>
>> Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!
>>
>> Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a
>> dog/of
>> a dog chasing a rabbit
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>
> This looks like no more than a clipping from SCOUNDREL. Who used it?
> When? I
> didn't check the OED -- did you? What else did you check? Google
> turned up
> nothing but an 1880 word (Northumberian, as I rdecall) for a switch
> (such as one
> might use to spank a child): <
> http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/durhamdialect/heslop.htm>.
>

From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 30 19:32:47 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:32:47 EDT
Subject: "As If"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 6/26/2005 6:25:24 PM Central Standard Time,
bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
I'm guessing it's a blend of "sha!" + "as if!" -- two interjections
popularized by "Wayne's World" (the movie came out in '92).
Yeah, that's what I always assumed it was.  As in
Speaker A: "Don't you just love the new minimalist program?"
Speaker B:    "Shazif."  (or) "Shazif.  I've so moved on to functionalism."

-doug

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 19:57:54 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:57:54 -0400
Subject: "Scown"
In-Reply-To: <46uc7l$fv03cb@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

That certainly seems to be a reasonable conclusion, though I would say
"a" rather than "the." But what I''m actually wondering is whether
"scown" or some similar word is in use outside of Harrison County in
East Texas and, so far, the only place that I've ever heard this word
used. According to some sources, e.g. The Los Angeles Times, Marshall,
the county seat of Harrison County and my birthplace, is the western
terminus of the old Black Belt. So, I've been more or less idly
wondering whether there might be relict words, phrases, or usages that
might be peculiar to that area that might have died out elsewhere, or
vice versa. "Scown" came to mind as a possibility.

-Wilson  Gray

On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:00 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Margaret Lee 
> Subject:      Re: "Scown"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> It sounds to me like the AAE version of 'scoundrel.'
>
>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its meaning
> is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
> humans as a mild insult and of animals.
>
> Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!
>
> Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a dog/of
> a dog chasing a rabbit
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
>

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Thu Jun 30 19:57:59 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:57:59 -0400
Subject: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <193.42dc8a45.2ff5a2df@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

How about the old Shazzam?  Or has this been mentioned?

At 03:32 PM 6/30/2005, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/26/2005 6:25:24 PM Central Standard Time,
>bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes:
>I'm guessing it's a blend of "sha!" + "as if!" -- two interjections
>popularized by "Wayne's World" (the movie came out in '92).
>Yeah, that's what I always assumed it was.  As in
>Speaker A: "Don't you just love the new minimalist program?"
>Speaker B:    "Shazif."  (or) "Shazif.  I've so moved on to functionalism."
>
>
>-doug
>
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham
>Department of Linguistics
>University of Texas - Austin
>http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 20:03:43 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:03:43 -0400
Subject: "Here's looking at you," etc. (1881)
Message-ID: 

"Here's looking at you, kid" from _Casablanca_ came in at #5 on the AFI's
top 100 movie quotes.  HDAS has it (minus "kid") from 1884.  Here it is
from 1881 with various other toasts and saloon-speak:

-----
_Washington Post_, Nov. 30, 1881, p. 2, col. 3
Saloon Etiquette.
>From the San Francisco Chronicle.
Some savant of the saloons has compiled the following catalogue of
alcoholic passwords: _New Jersey_-- "Well, here we go!" _New York_-- "My
regards." _California_-- "How!" _Indiana_-- "Here's to us." _Washington_--
"Here we go." _Mexico_-- "A la salud de U." (Your health.) _Illinois_--
"Another nail in the coffin." _Ohio_-- "I hope I see you well, sir."
_Kentucky_-- "Time." _Maine_-- "Take it sly." _Boston_-- "To the club."
_Wisconsin_-- "Here's looking at you." _Virginia_-- "Here's hoping."
_Pennsylvania_--"Here's to the old grudge." _North Carolina_-- "Here's all
the hair off your head." _Nevada_-- "Here we jolt." _Miscellaneous_--
"Boys, what'll you have?" "Let's go and take a ball." "Name yer pizen."
"Gentlemen, please name your beverage." "Gentlemen, will you join me?"
"Well, how will you take it?" "Gimme some of the old stuff." "A gin fizz,
if you please." "Whisky (if you can spare it)." "Let us go and shed a
tear." "Here's another luck." "Beer all the time-- nothing but beer."
"Give it to me straight." "Good-by."
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 20:05:09 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:05:09 -0400
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= "Scown"
In-Reply-To: <46uc7l$fufrvj@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Thank you! That was an excellent suggestion, Ron, and I did go to bed.

Hey! What were *you* doing still up at that time of morning?! You
nearly slipped that one past me!

-Wilson

On Jun 30, 2005, at 3:13 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:      =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Scown"?=
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, Go to bed! Think of your health!
>
> In a message dated 6/30/05 3:01:18 AM, wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
>
>
>> Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its
>> meaning
>> is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
>> humans as a mild insult and of animals.
>>
>> Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!
>>
>> Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a
>> dog/of
>> a dog chasing a rabbit
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 30 20:13:37 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:13:37 -0500
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

  If "beezark" does derive from "berserk" (crazy), this would not be inconsistent with Peter McGraw's story he read as a child. An animal guarding whatever should be intimidating, and indeed, the cat in the story devours anyone she doesn't like.  "Berserk/crazy" adds an element of unpredictability to the already ferocious qualities of a cat--and I for one would stay away.

Gerald Cohen

* * *

        [Original message from Peter McGraw, June 30, 2005]:
> I'm trying to square the comments so far with my only previous encounter with the word.  In one of my favorite books as a child, Secret of the
> Ancient Oak, a large-format book with stunning illustrations by Wolo, there's a character named Bezark (or Beezark) the Snifferpuss, who guards a
> strategic gate that the main character, a monkey named Sir Archibald, must pass on his quest to retrieve the king's crown.  Bezark is female and has feline features.  Sir Archibald expresses surprise that she knew he was coming, and she says, "I can smell 'em coming.  If I like 'em, I let 'em through.  If I don't, I eat 'em."  Why Bezark, I wonder?  Maybe the author (whose name I can't remember) heard the word or the surname and just liked the sound of it.
>
> Peter
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 21:32:33 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:32:33 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

Could also be a blend of "bizarre" + "berserk."

Unfortunately, while "be(e)zarks" might have been "bizarre," I see no evidence that they were ever regarded as "berserk," even in the manner of a "kook" or a "screwball."

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: Re: beezark (1919)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My guess is it's from "beserk." For the vowel in "-zark" cf. "varsity" from "(uni)versity.

Gerald Cohen

* * * *

Original message from Benjamin Zimmer, 6/30/05:
> "Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:
>
> http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11
>
> HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).
>
> -----
> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
> beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's a crippled loving cup that only has one handle. ["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
> -----
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
>
>

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 30 21:49:50 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:49:50 -0400
Subject: "Here's looking at you," etc. (1881)
In-Reply-To: <46uhoj$530le5@mx01.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:03 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      "Here's looking at you," etc. (1881)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Here's looking at you, kid" from _Casablanca_ came in at #5 on the
> AFI's
> top 100 movie quotes.  HDAS has it (minus "kid") from 1884.  Here it is
> from 1881 with various other toasts and saloon-speak:
>
> -----
> _Washington Post_, Nov. 30, 1881, p. 2, col. 3
> Saloon Etiquette.
> From the San Francisco Chronicle.
> Some savant of the saloons has compiled the following catalogue of
> alcoholic passwords: _New Jersey_-- "Well, here we go!" _New York_--
> "My
> regards." _California_-- "How!" _Indiana_-- "Here's to us."
> _Washington_--
> "Here we go." _Mexico_-- "A la salud de U." (Your health.) _Illinois_--
> "Another nail in the coffin." _Ohio_-- "I hope I see you well, sir."
> _Kentucky_-- "Time." _Maine_-- "Take it sly." _Boston_-- "To the club."
> _Wisconsin_-- "Here's looking at you." _Virginia_-- "Here's hoping."
> _Pennsylvania_--"Here's to the old grudge." _North Carolina_-- "Here's
> all
> the hair off your head." _Nevada_-- "Here we jolt." _Miscellaneous_--
> "Boys, what'll you have?" "Let's go and take a ball." "Name yer pizen."
> "Gentlemen, please name your beverage." "Gentlemen, will you join me?"
> "Well, how will you take it?" "Gimme some of the old stuff." "A gin
> fizz,
> if you please." "Whisky (if you can spare it)." "Let us go and shed a
> tear." "Here's another luck." "Beer all the time-- nothing but beer."
> "Give it to me straight."

You mean to say that, "Give it to me straight[, doc. Am I gonna die?]"
did not necessarily originate as a cliche of WWII war movies? Who knew?

-Wilson Gray

>  "Good-by."
> -----
>
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 22:19:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:19:49 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
Message-ID: 

Or "Bizerkley" as Snoop would have it.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Whoops. Insted of "beserk" make that spelling "berserk."
>
>Gerald Cohen

unless you're in Beserkley

L

>
>> ----------
>> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: beezark (1919)
>>
>> My guess is it's from "beserk." For the vowel in "-zark" cf.
>>"varsity" from "(uni)versity.
>>
>> Gerald Cohen
>>
>>

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 22:27:10 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:27:10 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)
Message-ID: 

_Secret of the Ancient Oak_, by the pseudonymous "Wolo," was published in New York by Morrow in 1942.

JL

"Peter A. McGraw"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Re: beezark (1919)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm trying to square the comments so far with my only previous encounter
with the word. In one of my favorite books as a child, Secret of the
Ancient Oak, a large-format book with stunning illustrations by Wolo,
there's a character named Bezark (or Beezark) the Snifferpuss, who guards a
strategic gate that the main character, a monkey named Sir Archibald, must
pass on his quest to retrieve the king's crown. Bezark is female and has
feline features. Sir Archibald expresses surprise that she knew he was
coming, and she says, "I can smell 'em coming. If I like 'em, I let 'em
through. If I don't, I eat 'em." Why Bezark, I wonder? Maybe the author
(whose name I can't remember) heard the word or the surname and just liked
the sound of it.

Peter

--On Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:41 AM -0700 Jonathan Lighter
wrote:

> No way to be certain, but Baer may well have coined it. It's rare in
> print, and I've never heard it used.
>
> Am surprised to find hundreds of Googits on "Bezark" as a surname. The
> slang term would thus appear to be an arbitrary application of this.
>
> JL
>
> Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: beezark (1919)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:47:35 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
> wrote:
>
>> "Be(e)zark" (HDAS: "an odd or contemptible man or woman") was recently
>> discussed on Ray Davis' Pseudopodium blog:
>>
>> http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050423.html#2005-05-11
>>
>> HDAS has it from ca1925 (Damon Runyon, _Poems for Men_).
>>
>> -----
>> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 25 May B3/2 THE BUGS have no use for the
>> beezark who carries a picture of himself in the back of his watch. It's
>> a crippled loving cup that only has one handle.
>> ["Two and Three: Putting the Next One Over" by Bugs Baer]
>> -----
>
> Turns out this was one of Baer's favorite epithets (he was also partial to
> calling people "sapp"). Here are two more cites from his column:
>
> -----
> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 26 May 8/4 Scientists still trying to dope out
> how a three-cushion beezark can miss a ball by 11 feet on a 10-foot table.
> -----
> 1919 _Atlanta Constitution_ 29 May 14/4 Saddest thing outside of a wet
> straw hat is to marry an old beezark for his money and not get it.
> -----
>
> Did Baer coin it, or just popularize it?
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

__________________________________________________
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From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun 30 22:34:52 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:52 -0500
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
Message-ID: 

>
> Or "Bizerkley" as Snoop would have it.
>
> JL

Was just thinking -- isn't "beezark" what a "dizzog" does?

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 22:51:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:51:34 -0700
Subject: "Scown"
Message-ID: 

A quick and dirty Googlification reveals no "scowns."

Except, of course, as a surname...

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Scown"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That certainly seems to be a reasonable conclusion, though I would say
"a" rather than "the." But what I''m actually wondering is whether
"scown" or some similar word is in use outside of Harrison County in
East Texas and, so far, the only place that I've ever heard this word
used. According to some sources, e.g. The Los Angeles Times, Marshall,
the county seat of Harrison County and my birthplace, is the western
terminus of the old Black Belt. So, I've been more or less idly
wondering whether there might be relict words, phrases, or usages that
might be peculiar to that area that might have died out elsewhere, or
vice versa. "Scown" came to mind as a possibility.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:00 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Margaret Lee
> Subject: Re: "Scown"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> It sounds to me like the AAE version of 'scoundrel.'
>
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> Is anyone else familiar with "scown" (rhymes with "clown"). Its meaning
> is akin to that of "rascal," to the extent that it can be used both of
> humans as a mild insult and of animals.
>
> Get up, you lazy scown!/rascal!
>
> Look at that scown/rascal go! E.g. of a rabbit being chased by a dog/of
> a dog chasing a rabbit
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
>

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 22:54:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:54:57 -0700
Subject: "Here's looking at you," etc. (1881)
Message-ID: 

What ! ?  No "Down the hatch " ?  No "Here's mud in yer eye ?"

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: "Here's looking at you," etc. (1881)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Here's looking at you, kid" from _Casablanca_ came in at #5 on the AFI's
top 100 movie quotes. HDAS has it (minus "kid") from 1884. Here it is
from 1881 with various other toasts and saloon-speak:

-----
_Washington Post_, Nov. 30, 1881, p. 2, col. 3
Saloon Etiquette.
>From the San Francisco Chronicle.
Some savant of the saloons has compiled the following catalogue of
alcoholic passwords: _New Jersey_-- "Well, here we go!" _New York_-- "My
regards." _California_-- "How!" _Indiana_-- "Here's to us." _Washington_--
"Here we go." _Mexico_-- "A la salud de U." (Your health.) _Illinois_--
"Another nail in the coffin." _Ohio_-- "I hope I see you well, sir."
_Kentucky_-- "Time." _Maine_-- "Take it sly." _Boston_-- "To the club."
_Wisconsin_-- "Here's looking at you." _Virginia_-- "Here's hoping."
_Pennsylvania_--"Here's to the old grudge." _North Carolina_-- "Here's all
the hair off your head." _Nevada_-- "Here we jolt." _Miscellaneous_--
"Boys, what'll you have?" "Let's go and take a ball." "Name yer pizen."
"Gentlemen, please name your beverage." "Gentlemen, will you join me?"
"Well, how will you take it?" "Gimme some of the old stuff." "A gin fizz,
if you please." "Whisky (if you can spare it)." "Let us go and shed a
tear." "Here's another luck." "Beer all the time-- nothing but beer."
"Give it to me straight." "Good-by."
-----

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 30 23:06:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:06:16 -0700
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
Message-ID: 

And "physog" is what hangs over London.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Or "Bizerkley" as Snoop would have it.
>
> JL

Was just thinking -- isn't "beezark" what a "dizzog" does?

---------------------------------
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 30 23:36:56 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:36:56 -0400
Subject: beezark (1919)--(corrected spelling)
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:52 -0500, Mullins, Bill
 wrote:

>> Or "Bizerkley" as Snoop would have it.
>>
>> JL
>
>Was just thinking -- isn't "beezark" what a "dizzog" does?

I was reminded of the lyrics by Kanye West, recently analyzed by Mark
Liberman et al. on the Language Log...

-----
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002269.html
I drink a boost for breakfast, an Ensure for dizzert
Somebody ordered pancakes I just sip the sizzurp
That right there could drive a sane man bizerk
Not to worry the Mr. H-to-the-Izzo's back wizzork
-----

Snoop, of course, prefers the "-izzle" substitution to the "-izz-" infix:
"for sure" -> "fo shizzle", "bitch" -> "bizzle", etc.

Interestingly, P.G. Wodehouse had a similar idea c. 1930.  Partridge's
Dictionary of Slang has:

-----
beazel. A girl since ca. 1930 (P.G. Wodehouse. An arbitrary formation -
prob. euph. for bitch)
-----

(This isn't in HDAS, though it does have "beazle" meaning "a worthless
fellow".)  As noted on an alt.usage.english, this sense of "beazel" also
appears in the Preston Sturges movie "Sullivan's Travels":

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/a9e01957bf2d88cd
Sullivan: Why don't you go back with the car? You look about as much like
a boy as Mae West.
The Girl: All right, they'll think I'm your frail.
Burrows: I believe it's called a "beazel," miss, if memory serves.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  1 00:47:24 2005
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:47:24 -0500
Subject: Eggcorn? disassemble
Message-ID: 

I'm surprised nobody's brought this one up; maybe I missed the posting.

In his press conference today Pres. Bush described the prisoners at Gitmo and elsewhere as  "people that have been trained in some instances to disassemble, that means not tell the truth"

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  1 00:58:13 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:58:13 -0400
Subject: Eggcorn? disassemble
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

And he always spreads a smirky grin when he "instructs" us on word meanings.

At 08:47 PM 5/31/2005, you wrote:
>I'm surprised nobody's brought this one up; maybe I missed the posting.
>
>In his press conference today Pres. Bush described the prisoners at Gitmo
>and elsewhere as  "people that have been trained in some instances to
>disassemble, that means not tell the truth"

From dcamp at CHILITECH.NET  Wed Jun  1 01:14:08 2005
From: dcamp at CHILITECH.NET (Duane Campbell)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:14:08 -0400
Subject: Eggcorn? disassemble
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----

> And he always spreads a smirky grin when he "instructs" us on word
> meanings.

Or, he always smiles when he catches himself in a mistake.

I have noticed that the people who dote on Bushisms don't have a camera
following them around 24/7. Maybe it's just as well. Or maybe we all are
errorless when we speak off the cuff to a group. Let's see hands.

D

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 01:26:22 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:26:22 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Eggcorn=3F=20disass?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?emble?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 5/31/05 9:14:48 PM, dcamp at CHILITECH.NET writes:

> ----- Original Message -----
>
> > And he always spreads a smirky grin when he "instructs" us on word
> > meanings.
>
> Or, he always smiles when he catches himself in a mistake.
>
> I have noticed that the people who dote on Bushisms don't have a camera
> following them around 24/7. Maybe it's just as well. Or maybe we all are
> errorless when we speak off the cuff to a group. Let's see hands.
>
> D
>
>

It isn't only Bush, of course. Anyone in the public eye gets this kind of
close scrutiny. One gets the impression from all this that Bush is not very
bright--that, whereas Reagan just had the good sense to read the cue cards, Bush
strikes out on his own. So I guess we should be proud of his courage.

Eisenhower was another one who was frequently made fun of for his
press-conference manner of speaking,though, as I recall, the reporters didn't so much
question his diction as his syntax.

Clinton seems to have escaped either kind of scrutiny--though he certainly
got chastized for his overintellectualizing the meaning of "is." And, as I
recall, people made fun of Carter's accent (and his encounter with a killer
rabbit), and Johnson's accent as well as his swearing.

From rshuy at MONTANA.COM  Wed Jun  1 02:12:24 2005
From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:12:24 -0600
Subject: Eggcorn? disassemble
In-Reply-To: <200506010052.j510qJSW003456@dwyer.montana.com>
Message-ID: 

on 5/31/05 6:47 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. at GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." 
> Subject:      Eggcorn? disassemble
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> I'm surprised nobody's brought this one up; maybe I missed the posting.
>
> In his press conference today Pres. Bush described the prisoners at =
> Gitmo and elsewhere as  "people that have been trained in some instances =
> to disassemble, that means not tell the truth"
>
Bush is doing a very good job of disassmbling the country. Take this any way
you want.

Roger Shuy

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun  1 03:10:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:10:29 -0400
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_Eggcorn=3F_disassemble?=
In-Reply-To: <42ftum$27mn1e@mx23.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On May 31, 2005, at 9:26 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Eggcorn=3F=20disass?
>               = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?emble?=
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated 5/31/05 9:14:48 PM, dcamp at CHILITECH.NET writes:
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>> And he always spreads a smirky grin when he "instructs" us on word
>>> meanings.
>>
>> Or, he always smiles when he catches himself in a mistake.
>>
>> I have noticed that the people who dote on Bushisms don't have a
>> camera
>> following them around 24/7. Maybe it's just as well. Or maybe we all
>> are
>> errorless when we speak off the cuff to a group. Let's see hands.
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>
> It isn't only Bush, of course. Anyone in the public eye gets this kind
> of
> close scrutiny. One gets the impression from all this that Bush is not
> very
> bright--that, whereas Reagan just had the good sense to read the cue
> cards, Bush
> strikes out on his own. So I guess we should be proud of his courage.
>
> Eisenhower was another one who was frequently made fun of for his
> press-conference manner of speaking,though, as I recall, the reporters
> didn't so much
> question his diction as his syntax.

The more mature among us may recall what was supposedly a
(stereo)typical Eisenhowerism:

"I love, as it were, my country, so to speak."

-Wilson Gray

>
> Clinton seems to have escaped either kind of scrutiny--though he
> certainly
> got chastized for his overintellectualizing the meaning of "is." And,
> as I
> recall, people made fun of Carter's accent (and his encounter with a
> killer
> rabbit), and Johnson's accent as well as his swearing.
>

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun  1 04:12:23 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:12:23 -0400
Subject: Minding the store, formerly Bush eggcorn
In-Reply-To: <4de7a7a1ef4cccd7c66b816922362334@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

        I was fixin? supper when my wife informed me of the imminent collapse of
Western civilization, that is, the disassembling of the prisoners at gitmo.
However, I was prepared.  We?ve been disassembling folks for somewhere
around four hundred years.  As for the language gaffe, Gould Brown informed
us many years ago that:

        We may not be able to effect all that is desirable; but, favoured as our
country is, with great facilities for carrying forward the work of
improvement, in every thing which can contribute to national glory and
prosperity, I would, in conclusion of this topic, submit?that a critical
knowledge of our common language is a subject worthy of the particular
attention of all who have the genius and the opportunity to attain it; that
on the purity and propriety with which Americans authors write this
language, the reputation of our national literature greatly depends;--that
in the preservation of it from all changes which ignorance may admit or
affectation invent, we ought to unite in having one common interest;--that a
fixed and settled orthography is of great importance, as a means of
preserving the etymology, history, and identity of words;--that a grammar
freed from errors and defects, and embracing a complete code of definitions
and illustrations, rules and exercises, is of primary importance to every
student and a great aid to teachers;--that as the vices of speech as well as
of manners are contagious, it becomes those who have the care of youth, to
be masters of the language in its purity and elegance, and to avoid as much
as possible every thing that is reprehensible either in thought or
expression. (p. 101)

Brown, Goold.  (1851).  The Grammar of English Grammars with an Introduction
Historical and Critical. 10th Ed.  New York: William Wood & Co.

I guess W has infected us all with his vile vice of speech and manners, and
Mr. Brown would worry not only about the youth of our country but the
leadership as well. Mr. Brown seems to be suggesting that if you can?t
handle the language  according to rule and proper expectation, you can?t
handle anything.   I get really uncomfortable when the attack becomes an
attack on usage rather than on substantive issues.

        My post is not a support of Bush.  He is not a President who generally
espouses policies I would like to see implemented.  It is a post to suggest
that we must mind our own store.  If we, as linguists who focus on variation
and change, are to be nonjudgmental observers of language use, shouldn?t
we be discussing the disassembling of the gitmo prisoners as a language
issue rather than a political one?  Is ?disassembling? a reasonable
phonological substitute for
?dissemble??  Maybe Bush is a filum guy.

As my Turkish students would say, as for our opinions of his polices, we
should post to a political site?

Jim

Wilson Gray writes:

> On May 31, 2005, at 9:26 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
>> Subject:
>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Eggcorn=3F=20disass?
>>               = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?emble?=
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> In a message dated 5/31/05 9:14:48 PM, dcamp at CHILITECH.NET writes:
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>> And he always spreads a smirky grin when he "instructs" us on word
>>>> meanings.
>>>
>>> Or, he always smiles when he catches himself in a mistake.
>>>
>>> I have noticed that the people who dote on Bushisms don't have a
>>> camera
>>> following them around 24/7. Maybe it's just as well. Or maybe we all
>>> are
>>> errorless when we speak off the cuff to a group. Let's see hands.
>>>
>>> D
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It isn't only Bush, of course. Anyone in the public eye gets this kind
>> of
>> close scrutiny. One gets the impression from all this that Bush is not
>> very
>> bright--that, whereas Reagan just had the good sense to read the cue
>> cards, Bush
>> strikes out on his own. So I guess we should be proud of his courage.
>>
>> Eisenhower was another one who was frequently made fun of for his
>> press-conference manner of speaking,though, as I recall, the reporters
>> didn't so much
>> question his diction as his syntax.
>
> The more mature among us may recall what was supposedly a
> (stereo)typical Eisenhowerism:
>
> "I love, as it were, my country, so to speak."
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>> Clinton seems to have escaped either kind of scrutiny--though he
>> certainly
>> got chastized for his overintellectualizing the meaning of "is." And,
>> as I
>> recall, people made fun of Carter's accent (and his encounter with a
>> killer
>> rabbit), and Johnson's accent as well as his swearing.
>>
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 04:27:27 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:27:27 -0700
Subject: another eggcorn?
In-Reply-To: <20050531102211.67592.qmail@web32904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On May 31, 2005, at 3:22 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> I just saw on the local news a follow-up to a recent story in which
> a woman was attacked with a hammer. A neighbor (female) who heard
> the woman scream said in an interview that "it was a blood-curling
> scream."

cool.  thousands of googleable blood-curling screams, yelps, howls,
and more.

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 04:46:44 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:46:44 -0700
Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Re:_=86_=86_=86_Re:_Origin_of_w?=
 =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?ord_"redskin"?=
In-Reply-To: <1ef.3ce7f52d.2fcd18bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On May 30, 2005, at 6:32 PM, Ron Butters wrote:

> I'm sorry that I offended Arnold Zwicky...

a generous apology.  i'm sorry i exploded.  in any case, we've taken
this offline.

arnold

From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM  Wed Jun  1 04:58:41 2005
From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:58:41 -0700
Subject: "FauxHo"
Message-ID: 

By Athima Chansanchai in today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer:

"Mod minimalist interiors, stylish seating, low lighting, $12 martinis
and lots of eye candy. After the initial shock passes, the brain tries
to process -- are we in a mirror universe? Los Angeles? SoHo?

FauxHo, more like it."

(http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/226458_fauxho31.html)

36 hits for the word on Google right now, but I'm wondering if it'll
take off. Seattlest.com has already vectored the word and the PI
article.

        James Callan

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 05:10:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:10:45 EDT
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
Message-ID: 

DEEP THROAT
...
"Deep Throat" was revealed yesterday. It had long been suspected that this  
was the guy. OED needs to update its "deep throat."
...
...  
(OED)
_deep  throat_, a person working within an  organization who supplies 
anonymously information concerning misconduct by other  members of the organization; 
orig. applied (with capital initials) to the  principal informant in the 
_WATERGATE_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=fulltext&queryword=deep+throat&first=1&
max_to_show=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id=g3LX-JNzorl-990&control_no=50059209&result_place=3&xrefword=Watergate)  
scandal [after a pornographic film (1972) so titled];

[1973 National Rev. (U.S.) 22 June 697/2 So you want to write a 
best-seller... Well, for starters, how  about the hijacking bit?.. Characters? Mafia and 
Deep Throat types are winners this season.] 1974 Time 22 Apr. 55/1 Foremost 
among  their key sources was a man whom the authors still tantalizingly refuse to 
name.  They called him ?*Deep  Throat?, and report only that he was a  
pre-Watergate friend of Woodward's, with ?extremely sensitive? antennae. 1974 
_BERNSTEIN_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b2.html#bernstein)  & 
_WOODWARD_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#woodward)  in Playboy May 
218/2 In newspaper terminology, this meant the discussions were on  ?deep 
background?. Woodward explained the arrangements to managing editor Howard  Simons 
one day. He had taken to calling the source ?my friend?, but Simons  dubbed 
him ?Deep  Throat?. The name stuck. 1982 Times 3 Nov. 1 A fresh threat of  
industrial action emerged last night after the publication of documents leaked  
by a ?deep throat? in the National Coal Board.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("deep throat" +  "Watergate")
     1. _Death  Sentence for the Movies?; Movies " One imagines the American 
public  choking on the hundredth consecutive re-release of 'Gone With the 
Wind.'"  _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=90455928&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117601616&clientId=65882) 
By ALLEN McKEE. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 
1973. p. 95  (1 page) 
2. _Of  Verse, Shadows And Votes_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=119763046&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11
17601616&clientId=65882) 
The Washington Post  (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 2, 1974. p. 
B2 (1 page)  
3. _Sloan  named as Watergate tipster_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=606355082&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&
TS=1117601616&clientId=65882) 
Chicago Tribune  (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 8, 1974. p. 3 (1 
page) 
4. _Hugh  Sloan Called Major Source for News Articles on Watergate_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=79621717&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&
VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117601616&clientId=65882) 
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr  8, 1974. p. 25 (1 
page) 
5. _Float  with Joyce thru Watergate_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=606430042&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T
S=1117601616&clientId=65882) 
William Safire.  Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago,  Ill.: Apr 24, 
1974. p. 24 (1 page) 
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
OT: JUNE 1ST
...
I've been trying to tell Mayor Bloomberg and the  Republican Party just 
what's at stake here today.  It's the entire future  of New York City.
...
Either I run for Manhattan Borough President, and they  help me, and they 
finally honor the African American who called New York City  "the Big Apple," and 
they finally Audrey Munson (our "Civic Fame" model), and I  run on "Free 
wifi! Free toilets! Free speech!" (my councilwoman wants to get rid  of all the 
newspaper boxes for the Village Voice and New York Press), and we get  a West 
Side stadium, the Olympics, and the Super Bowl, or..
...
...I do parking tickets in the room with no air, and  book a cooking tour of 
Sicily.
...
(My sister favors  Sicily.)

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 06:27:17 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:27:17 EDT
Subject: Billion here, billion there (1955, 1956)
Message-ID: 

What did we have on this?
...
...
_THESE  MODERN TIMES_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=11&did=228410252&SrchMode=1&sid=25&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117606924&c
lientId=65882)
The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jan 22,
1955. p. 18 (1 page)
Harman W. Nichols, of the United Press, sends me a dollar for Children's
Hospital pinned in a cartoon from "Taxpayers' Dollar," published by the U.S.
Chamber of Commerce.
...
The cartoon shows two fellows walking down the street, and caption reveals
that the one is explaining in the other:
"You save a billion here, a billion there, and the first thing you  know--it
mounts up."
...
...
_WASHINGTON  Scrapbook_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=12&did=509414242&SrchMode=1&sid=25&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117606704
&clientId=65882)
WALTER TROHAN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 7, 1956.
 p. 7 (1 page) :
Former President Herbert Hoover, who has twice headed commissions which
recommended means of streamlining the government and saving tax dollars,  believes
that if the federal government will save a billion here and a billion  there
it will soon add up to a substantial amount.
...
...
(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 22 AUGUST 2004)

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 06:44:32 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:44:32 EDT
Subject: Hooverville (Chicago, 1930)
Message-ID: 

_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/959/hooverville-1930_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/959/hooverville-1930)
...
HDAS has 1933. It appears that Chicago started this, not New  York.

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 08:21:52 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:21:52 EDT
Subject: Chicago hot dogs (1980); Gnudi
Message-ID: 

GNUDI
...
I ate at this place about two weeks ago. It's reviewed in today's New York
Times.
...
_http://events.nytimes.com/2005/06/01/dining/reviews/01rest.html_
(http://events.nytimes.com/2005/06/01/dining/reviews/01rest.html)
Mr. Falai is a cheese freak in general - although his menu is short, it
includes the possibility of a cheese course, with a half-dozen northern Italian
cheeses available - and a freak for Parmesan and its siblings in particular.
His  remarkable gnudi, made from an eiderdown-fluffy mixture of baby spinach and
a  less watery ricotta called ricotta impastata, came with a floppy Parmesan
hat  over each of them.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
CHICAGO HOT DOG
...
Andy Smith thinks I should devote my time to food. As if this "hot dog"
disaster could be any worse. Betcha no one quotes my "hot dog" book next month,
in July.
...
I noticed that the Chicago Tribune appears to have hit 1980 with the
digitization, so I looked for "hot dog" and "sport peppers."
...
The May 1980 article below should be read, even if the "hot dog" myth
appears in full. 1980 seems a little late, but that's what comes up. I then
searched for "Chicago hot dog."
...
...
_What  it takes to make a hot dog divine; Frank answers from Chicago's
cognoscenti What  it takes to make homemade hot dog toppings divine _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=623572742&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp
e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117613346&clientId=65882)
Margaret Sheridan. Chicago Tribune  (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: May
15, 1980. p. S_A1 (2 pages)

...
_Dog  Days on the Potomac; Red Hots! Get Your Red Hots! _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=130583372&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD
&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117613346&clientId=65882)
By  Diane GranatSpecial to The Washington Post. The  Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 11, 1980. p.  E1 (2 pages)
...
_The  great Chicago hot dog quest; The G & D is full of real hot doggers. One
guy  demolishes three beauties in less than 10 minutes. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=597156472&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD
&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117613792&clientId=65882)
NORBERT BLEI. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current  file). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 6,
1971. p. G24 (4 pages)
...
_Letters;  THE FRANKS OF CHICAGO _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=597337942&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1
117613792&clientId=65882)
Carol Sadewasser. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 18,
 1971. p. G4 (1 page)
...
_HOT  DOG RESPONSE_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=597368292&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117613792&clien
tId=65882)
Lenore Goldman. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 25,
1971. p. H5 (1 page)
...
_Chicago  is..._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=14&did=619364672&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117613921&clientI
d=65882)
Phylis Magida. Chicago  Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 8,
1979. p. E1 (2 pages)

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 09:27:10 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 05:27:10 -0400
Subject: ticktock (1973)
Message-ID: 

The journalistic term "ticktock" frequently appears in online media
criticism.  Wordspy defines it as "a news story that recounts events in
chronological order" .  It's
been applied to book-length narratives and TV programs as well.

* ticktock, n.

-----
1973 W. SAFIRE in _New York Times_ 6 Sep. 37/1 In the arcane lingo of the
newsmagazine business...a "tick-tock" is a detailed chronology of events
leading up to decision.
-----
1989 _Washington Post_ 4 Jun. W21 (Nexis) At the heart of this thriving
genre today, however, are the books that most closely resembles daily
journalism itself: sustained narratives. They're the direct descendants of
the White and Woodward-Bernstein books -- "tick-tocks," in newspaper
parlance, that deal in weeks and months rather than minutes.
-----
1999 _Slate Mag._ 11 Jan. "Ticktock" was reporter-ese for a portentous
narrative about the making of some significant event, usually having to do
with the government. It had been invented decades ago by the
newsmagazines, but appropriated in recent years by the major newspapers,
which liked to scoop the newsmagazines by running big ticktocks on
Sundays.

-----
2001 M. DOWD in _New York Times_ 16 Apr. 4-11/1 (Nexis) Blissed out
Bushies confided to reporters doing ticktocks that W. 'grilled' Condi
about the contents of the letter of regret to Beijing and 'peppered' his
staff with questions about the crew.
-----

* ticktock, adj./attrib.

-----
1985 _New York Times_ 21 Jul. 4-1/1 (Nexis) "The other press just wants to
get into tick-tock stories (about Mr. Reagan's health) and he wants to
wait a little longer to do those kinds of reflective interviews," said
Marlin Fitzwater, Mr. Bush's spokesman.
-----
1988 _Washington Post_ 12 Jul. D7 (Nexis) Life magazine's August spread on
shoplifting is jazzed up by a tick-tock account of sad Bess Myerson's
recent arrest with $44.07 worth of cheap jewelry, nail polish and penlight
batteries while visiting her boyfriend, currently residing in the nearby
federal pen.
-----
1993 _San Francisco Chronicle_ 17 Jul. A4 (Nexis) One highlight is his
tick-tock reconstruction of how ABC correspondent Jim Wooten and producer
Mark Halperin set off the Gennifer Flowers feeding frenzy based on the
now-famous unsubstantiated adultery story in the Star.
-----
2002 _New York Times_ 3 Sep. E1 (Nexis) There are ticktock accounts of
what happened, like A&E's "Minute by Minute: Attack on the Pentagon,"
which is repetitive, looks cheaply made and tries to trump up suspense
about whether some of the people it mentions lived or died.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 10:32:14 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 03:32:14 -0700
Subject: Take 'em apart
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: 

I've noticed that Bush refers to himself as *the* President,"  as in the example below, or as in "as *the* President, I believe that..." , rather than "as  President, I believe that ..."

 Margaret Lee
-----
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/07/20010702-12.html
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it's an unimaginable honor to be the
President during the 4th of July of this country. It means
what these words say, for starters. The great inalienable
rights of our country. We're blessed with such values in
America. And I -- it's -- I'm a proud man to be the nation
based upon such wonderful values. [etc.]
-----

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://mail.yahoo.com

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  1 11:28:25 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:28:25 -0400
Subject: Billion here, billion there (1955, 1956)
In-Reply-To: <200506010627.j516RMNR029336@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jan 22,
> 1955. p. 18 (1 page)
> Harman W. Nichols, of the United Press, sends me a dollar for Children's
> Hospital pinned in a cartoon from "Taxpayers' Dollar," published by the U.S.
> Chamber of Commerce.

Barry,

Is there any chance you might be able to verify the original cartoon?  I
believe that "Taxpayers' Dollar" is held by the New York Public Library.
If you are not inclined to do this, I will of course understand.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  1 11:39:55 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:39:55 -0400
Subject: Yale Dictionary of Quotations
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The Yale Dictionary of Quotations is now listed on Amazon.com with a
publication date of September 2006.  I wanted to point this out to this
list serv for a very specific reason:  If Barry or Ben or any of the other
great researchers on this list want to post any more quotation-related
discoveries, now is the time to do it, as the deadline beyond which I
cannot add material to the manuscript is fast approaching.

I also would welcome contributions of good quotations, regardless of
whether a discovery is involved.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun  1 12:17:41 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:17:41 -0400
Subject: "-less" means "less than"? Or "lacking"?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

From:    Wilson Gray 
>> somebody else wrote:

>>> I recently bought "stainless steel" forks and knives from Crate
>>> and Barrel. The product description (included inside the box, not
>>> posted outside) read "Will It Stain? Yes. The name says it all.
>>> It's stain-less steel, not stain-free steel! Nevertheless, it
>>> will stain much less than other steels: silver, bronze, etc. With
>>> proper care, staining can be minimized or eliminated."

> To me, this looks like a scam. In all my born days, which are
> uncomfortably close to seventy, I've never known a single instance in
> which stainless steel has become stained. This is also the
> experience of my 94-year-old mother. It's probably not impossible to
> stain stainless steel, but ordinary kitchen use won't stain it. I'd
> return that junk to C&B and, after I'd gotten my money back or
> received a credit ["received a credit" - is that right or should it
> be "received credit" or another construction?] suggest to them that
> they no longer deal with that company.

It depends, actually, on what you're calling a "stain". Stainless steel
can certainly discolor (it gets a rainbow-ish surface pattern if it's
used over very high heat, such as a reasonably powerful stovetop burner
on high, for a length of time), and if they'd had people complaining
about their stainless steel "staining", it makes sense to deal with it
that way.

This seems particularly likely to me given the "it will stain much less
than other steels: silver, bronze, etc." (BTW, was there *really* a
colon in there, such that silver and bronze are types of steel?) Silver
and bronze don't generally stain as much as they develop a surface
discoloration, whether one wishes to call it a patina, tarnish,
oxidation, or rust.

And speaking of rust, stainless steel rusts very readily in the presence
of ordinary table salt. If rust is viewed as a "stain", that's another
reason for the manufacturer to include the disclaimer.

--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  1 13:49:24 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:49:24 -0400
Subject: NOAD discount for scholars
In-Reply-To: <429C95EB.10100.108D618@localhost>
Message-ID: 

Yes, that's true--and what a bargain! Note that the scholar's
discount will be good for at least a year; the Amazon discount may
not last that long.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

On May 31, 2005, at 11:50, Michael Quinion wrote:
>> The URL for the discount is http://www.oup.com/us/noadscholars. The
>> dictionary, normally $60, is only $45 (and you can also get a copy of
>> Weird and Wonderful Words for only $5, as a bonus).
>
> Ahem. The current price on Amazon.com is $37.80!

From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 14:10:19 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:10:19 -0700
Subject: eggcorn
In-Reply-To: <5F355799-9D24-4E2F-B310-9C68A7DAE20D@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

Googling turns up 2 hits (only!) for "don't know
butkus" and 57 for "don't know buttkiss"

--- "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
wrote:

...
>
> but in there are at least two possible eggcorns:
> "chewy nugget" and
> "don't know buttkiss".
>
> arnold
>

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
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From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 14:30:26 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:30:26 -0700
Subject: Eggcorn? disassemble
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050531205703.03ca0500@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

I think he knows exactly what he's doing when he
misuses or mispronounces a word: he's promoting his
down-home, non-establishment image with his supporters
while giving his critics fits over trivia.  That's the
reason for the smirky grin.  GW is dumb like a fox.

--- Beverly Flanigan  wrote:

> And he always spreads a smirky grin when he
> "instructs" us on word meanings.
>
> At 08:47 PM 5/31/2005, you wrote:
> >I'm surprised nobody's brought this one up; maybe I
> missed the posting.
> >
> >In his press conference today Pres. Bush described
> the prisoners at Gitmo
> >and elsewhere as  "people that have been trained in
> some instances to
> >disassemble, that means not tell the truth"
>

James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 14:35:27 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:35:27 -0700
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before 1990? That's the earliest date I've found on Usenet.

A "poser," for those who in the dark, is a shallow but usu. self-assured show-off with only a faddish interest in some popular activity, social group, musical style, consumer durable, etc.; a "poseur," more or less, but in less refined circles.

JL

---------------------------------
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 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  1 14:55:30 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:55:30 -0400
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

        This appears to be a usage from the Boston Globe, 1/31/1981, though it sounds a bit odd and I don't know what that apostrophe or single quote mark is doing after "up-ups":

        <>

        Here's an unambiguous usage from the New York Times, 4/27/1984:

        <>

        I'm frankly unsure if I heard this in the 1980s or not, since I wasn't sure whether someone was being called a poser or a poseur.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:35 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)

Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before 1990? That's the earliest date I've found on Usenet.

A "poser," for those who in the dark, is a shallow but usu. self-assured show-off with only a faddish interest in some popular activity, social group, musical style, consumer durable, etc.; a "poseur," more or less, but in less refined circles.

JL

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 15:06:55 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:06:55 EDT
Subject: Crossing Guard (1890, 1931)
Message-ID: 

Does OED have "crossing guard"??
...
Is the first school "crossing guard" from Los Angeles?
...
...
_A  Railroad Crossing Guard._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=429998682&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111763
8250&clientId=65882)
DANIEL W CALDWELL.  Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 1,
1890. p. 22 (1 page)
...
_SCHOOL  WATCH INCREASED; Recruits From Vice and Traffic Divisions of Police
Force Swell  Crossing Guard to 180 _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=384901611&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=
1117638294&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current  File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 3, 1931. p.
A1 (1 page)
...
_CROSSING  GUARDS DRAFTED; Twenty-five Detectives Called to Protect Pupils;
More If  Citizens Demand It, Says Cross _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=384908001&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1117638294&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 4, 1931. p.
A1 (2 pages)

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  1 15:24:09 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:24:09 -0400
Subject: Eggcorn? disassemble
In-Reply-To: <20050601143026.68304.qmail@web50602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

 Jas. Smith writes:

>I think he knows exactly what he's doing when he
>misuses or mispronounces a word: he's promoting his
>down-home, non-establishment image with his supporters
>while giving his critics fits over trivia.  That's the
>reason for the smirky grin.  GW is dumb like a fox.
 ~~~~~~~~~~

Smart or dumb, ploy or eggcorn, it draws attention away from: a) the
example of the pot calling the kettle black*, and b) the actual treatment
of the prisoners.
A. Murie
*What? W dissembles? No!

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 15:46:47 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:47 +0200
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: <20050601143529.7D537156F4@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

> Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before 1990? That's the
earliest date
> I've found on Usenet.

I recall fellow students using the word "poser" in my high school in Norwich
England from 1979 to 1980 and at Leeds University from 1980 to 1984. It was
very popular in England in the early '80s.

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  1 15:56:03 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:56:03 -0500
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: <429D758300019C04@mail19.bluewin.ch> (added by
 postmaster@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: 

There was a bar/club in Georgetown in the 80's (maybe still around) called
Posers.

On 6/1/05 10:46 AM, "Paul Frank"  wrote:

>> Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before 1990? That's the
> earliest date
>> I've found on Usenet.
>
> I recall fellow students using the word "poser" in my high school in Norwich
> England from 1979 to 1980 and at Leeds University from 1980 to 1984. It was
> very popular in England in the early '80s.
>
> Paul
> ______________________________________
> Paul Frank
> English translation
> from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
> from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
> www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
> e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Jun  1 15:58:00 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:58:00 -0500
Subject: Chicago hot dogs (1980);...
Message-ID: 

        Original message, from Barry Popik, June 1, 2005:

> CHICAGO HOT DOG
> ...
> Andy Smith thinks I should devote my time to food. As if this "hot dog" disaster could be any worse. Betcha no one quotes my "hot dog" book next month, in July.

***************

Disaster?  The "hot dog" book was published last November and promptly received a newspaper article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.  It was mentioned in the obituaries on David Shulman (one of the three co-authors).  I'm slated to talk about the subject next week at the DSNA annual conference (Dictionary Society of North America).  It's a required item to be consulted in any future scholarly treatment of "hot dog."

    Call that a good beginning.

Gerald Cohen
P.S. As for Barry's other work on food items, I already have enough preliminary material in Comments on Etymology to publish a book on the subject (with Barry listed as the author).  When time permits,

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 17:12:06 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0700
Subject: eggcorn
In-Reply-To: <20050601141019.62093.qmail@web50602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 1, 2005, at 7:10 AM, James Smith wrote:

> Googling turns up 2 hits (only!) for "don't know
> butkus" and 57 for "don't know buttkiss"

yeah, but those 57 turn out to be only 2 when repeats are removed.

[AMZ]
>> but in there are at least two possible eggcorns:
>> "chewy nugget" and
>> "don't know buttkiss".

i've added them both to the eggcorn database as "questionable".

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 17:13:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:13:30 -0400
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:47 +0200, Paul Frank 
wrote:

>> Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before 1990? That's the
>> earliest date I've found on Usenet.
>
>I recall fellow students using the word "poser" in my high school in
>Norwich England from 1979 to 1980 and at Leeds University from 1980 to
>1984. It was very popular in England in the early '80s.

This sense of "poser" was popularized in British rock circles in the early
to mid-'70s.  It then spread to the U.S. in the late '70s via the punk
movement (see, for instance, the 1999 movie "SLC Punk" for an entertaining
depiction of the term's use in the early '80s by punks in Salt Lake City).

Here's what I find on Rock's Backpages:

-----
"Slade in the USA" by Keith Altham, _NME_, June 1973
I wondered if the group were allowing their visual images to bury any
musical validity they might possess: and whether things like their
campaigns for British Rail weren't just a bit too polite for Slade. Are
they turning into a bunch of posers.
-----
"King Crimson's Robert Fripp" by Steven Rosen, _Guitar Player_, May 1974
Jeff Beck?s guitar playing I can appreciate as good fun. It?s where the
guitarist and "poser-cum-ego tripper-cum-rock star-cum entertainer"
becomes all involved in the package.
-----
"Jesse Winchester: The Only Fools On The Road Tonight Are The Fools On The
Midnight Bus" by Andy Childs, _ZigZag_, November 1976
The place was so insufferably cramped with genuine fans and tedious posers
squashed side by side that it became too much of an ordeal to try and
derive any enjoyment out of the proceedings.
-----
"The Sex Pistols" by Caroline Coon, 1977 (Book Excerpt: _1988: The New
Wave Punk Rock Explosion_)
'I used to go up and down the Kings Road gobbing at the posers and pissing
around,' he [sc. Johnny Rotten] says, his eyes flashing in mischievous
memory.
-----
"Sham 69" by Danny Baker, _ZigZag_, September 1977
Sham 69 ain't the poser's idea of punk.
-----
"Voyage Of The Damned" by Peter Silverton, _Sounds_, December 1977
At 9.28 p.m. precisely, the enigmatic Brian James arrives. Erica, who?s
with him, points me out and he comes over and asks why I called him a
poser and a pain in my review of the Damned album. I don?t think he
believed me when I told him it was because he was a chronic poser and
kicked the habit when things started to get rough in the Damned camp.
"What do you mean by poser? And you?re one, anyway."
-----
[etc.]

--Ben Zimmer

From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  1 17:25:12 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:25:12 -0400
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296C10@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 10:55:30AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         This appears to be a usage from the Boston Globe,
> 1/31/1981 [...]

[and other earlier examples posted from a variety of people]

It's worth noting that OED2 has an 1888 quote defined nicely
as 'one who poses or attitudinizes'. We have another early
20th century quote, though I agree that modern popularity
stems from 1970s music contexts.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 17:39:21 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:39:21 -0700
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 1, 2005, at 8:56 AM, Matthew Gordon wrote:

> There was a bar/club in Georgetown in the 80's (maybe still around)
> called
> Posers.

i don't find evidence of it on google.

it could be the name of a gay bar.  in gay bar lingo a poser is a
beautiful young man who "stands and models" -- displays himself,
often haughtily.  (i have observed them in situ in a number of
locations, in both the u.s. and the u.k.)  some posers are hustlers,
but many are not.

Posers wouldn't be a great name for a gay bar.  but then it wouldn't
be a great name  for a bar, period, if it's taken in its current
teenage sense.

arnold

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 16:13:27 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:13:27 -0700
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

Thanks, John. Most useful.

JL

"Baker, John"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: "poser" (before 1990?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This appears to be a usage from the Boston Globe, 1/31/1981, though it sounds a bit odd and I don't know what that apostrophe or single quote mark is doing after "up-ups":

<>

Here's an unambiguous usage from the New York Times, 4/27/1984:

<>

I'm frankly unsure if I heard this in the 1980s or not, since I wasn't sure whether someone was being called a poser or a poseur.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:35 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)

Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before 1990? That's the earliest date I've found on Usenet.

A "poser," for those who in the dark, is a shallow but usu. self-assured show-off with only a faddish interest in some popular activity, social group, musical style, consumer durable, etc.; a "poseur," more or less, but in less refined circles.

JL

---------------------------------
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Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

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http://mail.yahoo.com

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 18:06:37 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:06:37 +0200
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: <20050601173918.6C4052BA9C@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

For what it's worth:

But hard men, comparative strangers, do not weep around the death-bed either
of a "fiend," or of a merely cold, selfish, indifferent man, a " poser," or
even a mere artist, as the companions of Byron wept around his death-bed at
Mesolonghi.
        Roden Noel, Life of Lord Byron, Walter Scott Publishing, 1890, p.
189.

[Of Thoreau] He has been regarded as an American Diogenes and a rural
Barnum; as a narrow Puritan, as a rebel against Puritanism, as a
German-Puritan romanticist; as a sentimentalist; as a poet-naturalist; as a
hermit worshiping Nature; as an anarchistic dreamer; as a loafer, as a
poser, as a prig and skulker; as a cynic, as a stoic, as an epicurean.
        Norman Foerster, Nature in American Literature: Studies in the
Modern View of Nature, Macmillan, 1923, p. 69.

Susan hated her mother because she felt that she was a poser and a social
climber.
        Case Studies of Normal Adolescent Girls, D. Appleton, 1933, p. 221.

He was a poser, a wearer of clothes, forever acting a part, striving to
create an impression, to draw attention to himself.
        Frank Norris, The Octopus, Sagamore Press, 1957, p. 68.

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  1 18:11:23 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:11:23 -0400
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

POSER
Has it completely lost its old meaning  of a difficult problem or question?
That is still what it says to me;  I would mentally adjust it to /poseur/
if it were used in the sense discussed so far.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Wed Jun  1 18:56:14 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:56:14 -0400
Subject: "-less" means "less than"? Or "lacking"?
In-Reply-To: <429da768.1e63b95a.35b5.5532SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

So, "stainless" has no real-world referent with respect to steel? A
seller can advertise carbon steel as "stainless steel," as long as he
includes a disclaimer _inside_ the packaging that notes that his
"stainless" steel may actually stain, under normal use?

I don't know, Dave. It still seems kinda shady to me.

-Wilson

On 6/1/05, David Bowie  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       David Bowie 
> Subject:      Re: "-less" means "less than"? Or "lacking"?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From:    Wilson Gray 
> >> somebody else wrote:
>
> >>> I recently bought "stainless steel" forks and knives from Crate
> >>> and Barrel. The product description (included inside the box, not
> >>> posted outside) read "Will It Stain? Yes. The name says it all.
> >>> It's stain-less steel, not stain-free steel! Nevertheless, it
> >>> will stain much less than other steels: silver, bronze, etc. With
> >>> proper care, staining can be minimized or eliminated."
>
> > To me, this looks like a scam. In all my born days, which are
> > uncomfortably close to seventy, I've never known a single instance in
> > which stainless steel has become stained. This is also the
> > experience of my 94-year-old mother. It's probably not impossible to
> > stain stainless steel, but ordinary kitchen use won't stain it. I'd
> > return that junk to C&B and, after I'd gotten my money back or
> > received a credit ["received a credit" - is that right or should it
> > be "received credit" or another construction?] suggest to them that
> > they no longer deal with that company.
>
> It depends, actually, on what you're calling a "stain". Stainless steel
> can certainly discolor (it gets a rainbow-ish surface pattern if it's
> used over very high heat, such as a reasonably powerful stovetop burner
> on high, for a length of time), and if they'd had people complaining
> about their stainless steel "staining", it makes sense to deal with it
> that way.
>
> This seems particularly likely to me given the "it will stain much less
> than other steels: silver, bronze, etc." (BTW, was there *really* a
> colon in there, such that silver and bronze are types of steel?) Silver
> and bronze don't generally stain as much as they develop a surface
> discoloration, whether one wishes to call it a patina, tarnish,
> oxidation, or rust.
>
> And speaking of rust, stainless steel rusts very readily in the presence
> of ordinary table salt. If rust is viewed as a "stain", that's another
> reason for the manufacturer to include the disclaimer.
>
> --
> David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>      Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>      house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>      chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  1 19:12:20 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:12:20 +0200
Subject: Merriam Webster Unabridged
In-Reply-To: <20050601180639.4C0402ACA1@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

Is this worth 30 dollars a year?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/premium/mwunabridged/

How does the Merriam-Webster Unabridged compared to the Random House
Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, which I have on CD-ROM?

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 19:17:44 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:17:44 -0700
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: <20050601143528.21689.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

I used it in the early 80's. There was a very
important poser/punk dichotomy then. A good place to
look for American cites is the fanzine Maximum
Rockn'Roll. Unfortunately I can't find any online
sources.

It seems to me that punk fanzines could be a great
place for all sorts of research. For example, you
could probably find mullet in them easily. If only
there were searchable collections online.

Ed

--- Jonathan Lighter  wrote:

> Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before
> 1990? That's the earliest date I've found on Usenet.
>
> A "poser," for those who in the dark, is a shallow
> but usu. self-assured show-off with only a faddish
> interest in some popular activity, social group,
> musical style, consumer durable, etc.; a "poseur,"
> more or less, but in less refined circles.
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
>  Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more.
> Check it out!
>

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 19:22:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:22:37 -0400
Subject: bubblegummer (1947, 1949, 1966)
Message-ID: 

HDAS has 1969 for "bubblegummer" = 'youngster, esp. a silly teenaged
girl', with a bracketed cite from 1947 explicitly referring to blowing
bubbles.  The 1947 and 1949 cites below evokes bubble-blowing bobbysoxers,
while the 1966 cite is more related to "bubblegum music" (mentioned
elsewhere in the article).

-----
_Washington Post_, Dec. 21, 1947, p. V1/2
"They Think Maybe He's The Waiter" by Aline Mosby
Not one fan magazine flashbulb popped, not one autograph hound stuck his
grmy book under Pete's schnozz and not one bubble-gummer cooed.
-----
_Nevada State Journal_, Jan. 16, 1949, p. 4/3
"Winchell on Broadway" by Walter Winchell
"Strawberry Roan" has Gene's intrepid Autrying to pop the orbs of
bubblegummers.
-----
"San Francisco Bay Rock" by Gene Sculatti, _Crawdaddy_ No. 6, Nov. 1966
(rocksbackpages.com)
Their first single, 'It's No Secret'/'Runnin' Round This World', was a
flop. It was too good. The bubble-gummers wouldn't buy it.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 19:41:54 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:41:54 -0400
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:17:44 -0700, Ed Keer  wrote:

>I used it in the early 80's. There was a very
>important poser/punk dichotomy then. A good place to
>look for American cites is the fanzine Maximum
>Rockn'Roll. Unfortunately I can't find any online
>sources.
>
>It seems to me that punk fanzines could be a great
>place for all sorts of research. For example, you
>could probably find mullet in them easily. If only
>there were searchable collections online.

Well, there's the subscription-only "Rock's Backpages", which I used for
the "poser" cites I just gave from the '70s punk scene (from _ZigZag_,
_Sounds_, etc.).  It's true, though, that the database doesn't include
_Maximum Rock n' Roll_ or other early US punk zines.

As for "mullet", would you expect the zines to antedate the 1994 Beastie
Boys song "Mullet Head"?  Rock's Backpages has one cite from 1994,
referring to the Beastie Boys' magazine _Grand Royal_:

-----
"Strange New Ways To Kill A Rock Critic" by Paul Gorman
_Mojo_, September 1994
With huge retrospectives on anyone from Bruce Lee to Fela Kuti, fashion
spreads based on the, uh, style of mullet king Joey Buttafuoco, interviews
with girlie mates Luscious Jackson, encounters between rap magnate Russell
Simmons and Jon Spencer Blues Explosion drummer Russell Simmins for no
other reason than they nearly have the same name, Grand Royal has chutzpah
in spades.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 19:46:10 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:46:10 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Merriam=20Webster=20Unabr?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?idged?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 6/1/05 3:12:30 PM, paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU writes:

> Is this worth 30 dollars a year?
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/premium/mwunabridged/
>
> How does the Merriam-Webster Unabridged compared to the Random House
> Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, which I have on CD-ROM?
>
> Paul
>

I would say it is worth $30 per year (a) if you do not already have access
through a university or public library; (b) you need to check several
dictionaries for some of your needs; and (c) you do not take advantage of the bargain
rates for NOAD2 (just discussed on ADS-L).

I think that M-W3 is excellent, as is the (free) online American Heritage. It
was my understanding that Random House has got out of the dictionary
business, so whatever you have is probably not up to date.

My favorite is NOAD. I should tell you, however, that I am on the Editorial
Advisory Board of NOAD (Geoffrey Nunberg, are you listening?)

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 19:47:29 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:47:29 -0400
Subject: hard rock (1965), blues-rock (1966)
Message-ID: 

* hard rock (OED 1967)
* blues-rock (not in OED, 1969 cite under "heavy")

-----
_New York Times_, Dec 11, 1965, p. 23/2
These far-above-average musicians make the honor roll for their joyfully
noisy "hard rock" music, heavily influenced by the Rolling Stones and
Chuck Berry.
-----
_Los Angeles Times_, Jan 18, 1966, p. II10/4
At times Rickett has guitars backing him and the sound is standard
blues-rock. ... The blues-rock stuff makes them popular; the brass-reed
stuff makes them interesting.
-----
"San Francisco Bay Rock" by Gene Sculatti, _Crawdaddy_ No. 6, Nov. 1966
(rocksbackpages.com)
The San Francisco rock scene is a complex one. It is a plentiful jumble of
hard rock, folk-rock, blues-rock, bubble-gum, and adult bands that have
given the city its title as "the Liverpool of the West" (aptly provided by
jazz critic Ralph Gleason).
...
They [sc. the Grateful Dead] are a hard blues-rock band, a powerhouse unit
of organ, drums, and three guitars.
...
The Charlatans are hard rock, specializing in John Hammond blues and
original country & western numbers.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  1 19:51:13 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:51:13 EDT
Subject: Poo-flag -- a nonce term or a Germanism?
Message-ID: 

Is anyone familiar with the term POO-FLAG (see below)? Could it be a 
Germanism, or just a nonce term? What is the German equivalent?

(I wonder how the German police go about dissembling the poo-flags)

> http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/03/1728717.php
> Uploaded file is at: http://www.indybay.org/uploads/bushpooflag.jpg
> (44.2 kibibytes)
>
> German police baffeled by Bush poo-flags
> no oneMonday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 8:43 PM
>
> German police baffeled by Bush poo-flags
>
> Police in Germany are hunting pranksters who have been sticking?
>? miniature flag portraits of US President George W. Bush into piles
> of?
>? dog poo in public parks. Josef Oettl, parks administrator for
> Bayreuth,?
>? said: "This has been going on for about a year now, and there
> must be?
>? 2,000 to 3,000 piles of excrement that have been claimed during that
>?
>? time."?
>
>? The series of incidents was originally thought to be some sort of?
>? protest against the US-led invasion ofIraq. And then when it
> continued?
>? it was thought to be a protest against President George W. Bush's?
>? campaign for re-election. But it is still going on and the police
> say?
>? they are completely baffled as to who is to blame. "We have
> sent out?
>? extra patrols to try to catch whoever is doing this in the
> act," said?
>? police spokesman Reiner Kuechler. "But frankly, we don't know
> what we?
>? would do if we caught them red handed." Legal experts say there
> is no?
>? law against using feces as a flag stand and the federal legal
> experts?
>? say there is no law against using feces as a flag stand and the
> federal?
>? constitution is vague on the issue.?

From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  1 19:59:44 2005
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:59:44 -0500
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

It was not a gay bar, at least not a full time one.

I agree it's an odd name for any kind of bar, and I remember being struck by the pejorative sense of the name at the time. FWIW it was a pretty cool, alternative club in the late 80s, not a jocky-type place. Then again, I guess it couldn't have been too cool if I got in.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Arnold M. Zwicky
Sent: Wed 6/1/2005 12:39 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject:      Re: "poser" (before 1990?)

On Jun 1, 2005, at 8:56 AM, Matthew Gordon wrote:

> There was a bar/club in Georgetown in the 80's (maybe still around)
> called
> Posers.

i don't find evidence of it on google.

it could be the name of a gay bar.  in gay bar lingo a poser is a
beautiful young man who "stands and models" -- displays himself,
often haughtily.  (i have observed them in situ in a number of
locations, in both the u.s. and the u.k.)  some posers are hustlers,
but many are not.

Posers wouldn't be a great name for a gay bar.  but then it wouldn't
be a great name  for a bar, period, if it's taken in its current
teenage sense.

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 20:04:44 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:04:44 -0400
Subject: freak rock (1966, 1968)
Message-ID: 

* freak rock (not in OED)

"Big Brother & the Holding Company" by Greg Shaw
_Mojo Navigator_, Sep. 1966 (rocksbackpages.com)
[Peter Albin:] If the record makes it, then the people?ll start digging
what we?re doing, and then we?ll lay it on them thick, with some freak
rock things. I dunno, it?s always good to drop new things on people.

"Psychedelic Music Still Keeps The Jefferson Airplane Flying" by Mike Jahn
_New York Times_, Dec. 2, 1968, p. 62/1
In a time when nearly everyone who can lift a guitar seems to be looking
to Chicago and the blues, or to Nashville and country music, Jefferson
Airplane still plays hard-line San Francisco freak rock.

--Ben Zimmer

From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 20:05:48 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:05:48 -0700
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
In-Reply-To: <23650.69.142.143.59.1117654914.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

> As for "mullet", would you expect the zines to
> antedate the 1994 Beastie
> Boys song "Mullet Head"?  Rock's Backpages has one
> cite from 1994,
> referring to the Beastie Boys' magazine _Grand
> Royal_:
>

I think so. The Beastie Boy's admit that they didn't
coin the term, that it was just around. If punks were
using it in the late 80's/early 90's it should be in a
fanzine somewhere.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  1 20:19:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:19:32 -0400
Subject: get spaced (1966)
Message-ID: 

What does HDAS have for "get spaced" = 'get high'?

"Country Joe and the Fish" by Greg Shaw
_Mojo Navigator_, 22 Nov. 1966 (rocksbackpages.com)
[Barry Melton:] Every time Joe McDonald gets spaced he sings old folk songs.

--Ben Zimmer

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun  1 21:55:40 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:55:40 -0700
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
Message-ID: 

Which was named first--the movie or the watergate guy?
Fritz

>>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 05/31/05 10:10PM >>>
DEEP THROAT
...
"Deep Throat" was revealed yesterday. It had long been suspected that this
was the guy. OED needs to update its "deep throat."
...
...
(OED)
_deep  throat_, a person working within an  organization who supplies
anonymously information concerning misconduct by other  members of the organization;
orig. applied (with capital initials) to the  principal informant in the
_WATERGATE_
(http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=fulltext&queryword=deep+throat&first=1&
max_to_show=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id=g3LX-JNzorl-990&control_no=50059209&result_place=3&xrefword=Watergate)
scandal [after a pornographic film (1972) so titled];

[1973 National Rev. (U.S.) 22 June 697/2 So you want to write a
best-seller... Well, for starters, how  about the hijacking bit?.. Characters? Mafia and
Deep Throat types are winners this season.] 1974 Time 22 Apr. 55/1 Foremost
among  their key sources was a man whom the authors still tantalizingly refuse to
name.  They called him G??*Deep  ThroatG??, and report only that he was a
pre-Watergate friend of Woodward's, with G??extremely sensitiveG?? antennae. 1974
_BERNSTEIN_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b2.html#bernstein)  &
_WOODWARD_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#woodward)  in Playboy May
218/2 In newspaper terminology, this meant the discussions were on  G??deep
backgroundG??. Woodward explained the arrangements to managing editor Howard  Simons
one day. He had taken to calling the source G??my friendG??, but Simons  dubbed
him G??Deep  ThroatG??. The name stuck. 1982 Times 3 Nov. 1 A fresh threat of
industrial action emerged last night after the publication of documents leaked
by a G??deep throatG?? in the National Coal Board.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("deep throat" +  "Watergate")
     1. _Death  Sentence for the Movies?; Movies " One imagines the American
public  choking on the hundredth consecutive re-release of 'Gone With the
Wind.'"  _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=90455928&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117601616&clientId=65882)
By ALLEN McKEE. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22,
1973. p. 95  (1 page)
2. _Of  Verse, Shadows And Votes_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=119763046&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11
17601616&clientId=65882)
The Washington Post  (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 2, 1974. p.
B2 (1 page)
3. _Sloan  named as Watergate tipster_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=606355082&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&
TS=1117601616&clientId=65882)
Chicago Tribune  (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 8, 1974. p. 3 (1
page)
4. _Hugh  Sloan Called Major Source for News Articles on Watergate_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=79621717&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&
VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117601616&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr  8, 1974. p. 25 (1
page)
5. _Float  with Joyce thru Watergate_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=606430042&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T
S=1117601616&clientId=65882)
William Safire.  Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago,  Ill.: Apr 24,
1974. p. 24 (1 page)
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
OT: JUNE 1ST
...
I've been trying to tell Mayor Bloomberg and the  Republican Party just
what's at stake here today.  It's the entire future  of New York City.
...
Either I run for Manhattan Borough President, and they  help me, and they
finally honor the African American who called New York City  "the Big Apple," and
they finally Audrey Munson (our "Civic Fame" model), and I  run on "Free
wifi! Free toilets! Free speech!" (my councilwoman wants to get rid  of all the
newspaper boxes for the Village Voice and New York Press), and we get  a West
Side stadium, the Olympics, and the Super Bowl, or..
...
...I do parking tickets in the room with no air, and  book a cooking tour of
Sicily.
...
(My sister favors  Sicily.)

From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  1 21:56:46 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:56:46 -0400
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 02:55:40PM -0700, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
> Which was named first--the movie or the watergate guy?

The Watergate guy was named after the movie.

JTS

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun  1 22:11:02 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:11:02 -0700
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
Message-ID: 

It just seems so odd to be 'named' after (I don't know how he got tagged with 'deep throat'--who tagged him with it?) something so tasteless.
Fritz
>>> jester at PANIX.COM 06/01/05 02:56PM >>>
On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 02:55:40PM -0700, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
> Which was named first--the movie or the watergate guy?

The Watergate guy was named after the movie.

JTS

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun  1 22:13:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:13:29 -0400
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
In-Reply-To: <42ut2e$21fo9c@mx21.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

The movie. I saw it in the summer of 1973 and it was already way
(in)famous long before that. A joke from those times:

Q. What's the difference between Nixon and Linda Lovelace?
A. She doesn't choke on the big ones.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2005, at 5:55 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING 
> Subject:      Re: Deep Throat (1974)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Which was named first--the movie or the watergate guy?
> Fritz
>
>>>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 05/31/05 10:10PM >>>
> DEEP THROAT
> ...
> "Deep Throat" was revealed yesterday. It had long been suspected that
> this
> was the guy. OED needs to update its "deep throat."
> ...
> ...
> (OED)
> _deep  throat_, a person working within an  organization who supplies
> anonymously information concerning misconduct by other  members of the
> organization;
> orig. applied (with capital initials) to the  principal informant in
> the
> _WATERGATE_
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?
> query_type=fulltext&queryword=deep+throat&first=1&
> max_to_show=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id=g3LX-
> JNzorl-990&control_no=50059209&result_place=3&xrefword=Watergate)
> scandal [after a pornographic film (1972) so titled];
>
> [1973 National Rev. (U.S.) 22 June 697/2 So you want to write a
> best-seller... Well, for starters, how  about the hijacking bit?..
> Characters? Mafia and
> Deep Throat types are winners this season.] 1974 Time 22 Apr. 55/1
> Foremost
> among  their key sources was a man whom the authors still
> tantalizingly refuse to
> name.  They called him G??*Deep  ThroatG??, and report only that he
> was a
> pre-Watergate friend of Woodward's, with G??extremely sensitiveG??
> antennae. 1974
> _BERNSTEIN_
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b2.html#bernstein)  &
> _WOODWARD_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#woodward)
> in Playboy May
> 218/2 In newspaper terminology, this meant the discussions were on
> G??deep
> backgroundG??. Woodward explained the arrangements to managing editor
> Howard  Simons
> one day. He had taken to calling the source G??my friendG??, but
> Simons  dubbed
> him G??Deep  ThroatG??. The name stuck. 1982 Times 3 Nov. 1 A fresh
> threat of
> industrial action emerged last night after the publication of
> documents leaked
> by a G??deep throatG?? in the National Coal Board.
> ...
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("deep throat" +  "Watergate")
>      1. _Death  Sentence for the Movies?; Movies " One imagines the
> American
> public  choking on the hundredth consecutive re-release of 'Gone With
> the
> Wind.'"  _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=0&did=90455928&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3
> 09&VName=HNP&TS=1117601616&clientId=65882)
> By ALLEN McKEE. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
> Jul 22,
> 1973. p. 95  (1 page)
> 2. _Of  Verse, Shadows And Votes_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=1&did=119763046&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS=11
> 17601616&clientId=65882)
> The Washington Post  (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 2,
> 1974. p.
> B2 (1 page)
> 3. _Sloan  named as Watergate tipster_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=2&did=606355082&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&
> TS=1117601616&clientId=65882)
> Chicago Tribune  (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 8, 1974. p. 3
> (1
> page)
> 4. _Hugh  Sloan Called Major Source for News Articles on Watergate_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3&did=79621717&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&
> VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117601616&clientId=65882)
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr  8, 1974. p.
> 25 (1
> page)
> 5. _Float  with Joyce thru Watergate_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=4&did=606430042&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&T
> S=1117601616&clientId=65882)
> William Safire.  Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago,  Ill.:
> Apr 24,
> 1974. p. 24 (1 page)
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> OT: JUNE 1ST
> ...
> I've been trying to tell Mayor Bloomberg and the  Republican Party just
> what's at stake here today.  It's the entire future  of New York City.
> ...
> Either I run for Manhattan Borough President, and they  help me, and
> they
> finally honor the African American who called New York City  "the Big
> Apple," and
> they finally Audrey Munson (our "Civic Fame" model), and I  run on
> "Free
> wifi! Free toilets! Free speech!" (my councilwoman wants to get rid
> of all the
> newspaper boxes for the Village Voice and New York Press), and we get
> a West
> Side stadium, the Olympics, and the Super Bowl, or..
> ...
> ...I do parking tickets in the room with no air, and  book a cooking
> tour of
> Sicily.
> ...
> (My sister favors  Sicily.)
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun  1 22:20:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:20:45 -0400
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
In-Reply-To: <42k64s$24vkmg@mx22.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

>
Article on Deep Throat.

> 

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2005, at 1:10 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Deep Throat (1974)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> DEEP THROAT
> ...
> "Deep Throat" was revealed yesterday. It had long been suspected that
> this =20
> was the guy. OED needs to update its "deep throat."
> ...
> ... =20
> (OED)
> _deep  throat_, a person working within an  organization who
> supplies=20
> anonymously information concerning misconduct by other  members of the
> organ=
> ization;=20
> orig. applied (with capital initials) to the  principal informant in
> the=20
> _WATERGATE_=20
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?
> query_type=3Dfulltext&queryword=3Dde=
> ep+throat&first=3D1&
> max_to_show=3D10&search_spec=3Dfulltext&sort_type=3Dalpha&search_id=3Dg
> 3LX-J=
> Nzorl-990&control_no=3D50059209&result_place=3D3&xrefword=3DWatergate)
> =20
> scandal [after a pornographic film (1972) so titled];
> =20
> [1973 National Rev. (U.S.) 22 June 697/2 So you want to write a=20
> best-seller... Well, for starters, how  about the hijacking bit?..
> Character=
> s? Mafia and=20
> Deep Throat types are winners this season.] 1974 Time 22 Apr. 55/1
> Foremost=20
> among  their key sources was a man whom the authors still
> tantalizingly refu=
> se to=20
> name.  They called him =E2=80=98*Deep  Throat=E2=80=99, and report
> only that=
>  he was a =20
> pre-Watergate friend of Woodward's, with =E2=80=98extremely
> sensitive=E2=80=
> =99 antennae. 1974=20
> _BERNSTEIN_
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b2.html#bernstein)  &=20
> _WOODWARD_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#woodward)
> in Pl=
> ayboy May=20
> 218/2 In newspaper terminology, this meant the discussions were on
> =E2=80=
> =98deep=20
> background=E2=80=99. Woodward explained the arrangements to managing
> editor=20=
> Howard  Simons=20
> one day. He had taken to calling the source =E2=80=98my
> friend=E2=80=99, but=
>  Simons  dubbed=20
> him =E2=80=98Deep  Throat=E2=80=99. The name stuck. 1982 Times 3 Nov.
> 1 A fr=
> esh threat of =20
> industrial action emerged last night after the publication of
> documents leak=
> ed =20
> by a =E2=80=98deep throat=E2=80=99 in the National Coal Board.
> ...
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("deep throat" +  "Watergate")
>      1. _Death  Sentence for the Movies?; Movies " One imagines the
> American=
> =20
> public  choking on the hundredth consecutive re-release of 'Gone With
> the=20
> Wind.'"  _=20
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3D0&did=3D90455928&SrchMode=3D1&sid=
> =3D2&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D11176
> 01616=
> &clientId=3D65882)=20
> By ALLEN McKEE. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
> Jul 22,=
> =20
> 1973. p. 95  (1 page)=20
> 2. _Of  Verse, Shadows And Votes_=20
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3D1&did=3D119763046&SrchMode=3D1&sid=
> =3D2&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D11
> 17601616&clientId=3D65882)=20
> The Washington Post  (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Feb 2,
> 1974. p.=20
> B2 (1 page) =20
> 3. _Sloan  named as Watergate tipster_=20
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3D2&did=3D606355082&SrchMode=3D1&sid=
> =3D2&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&
> TS=3D1117601616&clientId=3D65882)=20
> Chicago Tribune  (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 8, 1974. p. 3
> (1=20
> page)=20
> 4. _Hugh  Sloan Called Major Source for News Articles on Watergate_=20
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3D3&did=3D79621717&SrchMode=3D1&sid=
> =3D2&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&
> VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&TS=3D1117601616&clientId=3D65882)=20
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr  8, 1974. p.
> 25 (1=20
> page)=20
> 5. _Float  with Joyce thru Watergate_=20
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3D4&did=3D606430042&SrchMode=3D1&sid=
> =3D2&Fmt=3D10&VInst=3DPROD&VType=3DPQD&RQT=3D309&VName=3DHNP&T
> S=3D1117601616&clientId=3D65882)=20
> William Safire.  Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago,  Ill.:
> Apr 24=
> ,=20
> 1974. p. 24 (1 page)=20
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> OT: JUNE 1ST
> ...
> I've been trying to tell Mayor Bloomberg and the  Republican Party
> just=20
> what's at stake here today.  It's the entire future  of New York City.
> ...
> Either I run for Manhattan Borough President, and they  help me, and
> they=20
> finally honor the African American who called New York City  "the Big
> Apple,=
> " and=20
> they finally Audrey Munson (our "Civic Fame" model), and I  run on
> "Free=20
> wifi! Free toilets! Free speech!" (my councilwoman wants to get rid
> of all=20=
> the=20
> newspaper boxes for the Village Voice and New York Press), and we get
> a Wes=
> t=20
> Side stadium, the Olympics, and the Super Bowl, or..
> ...
> ...I do parking tickets in the room with no air, and  book a cooking
> tour of=
> =20
> Sicily.
> ...
> (My sister favors  Sicily.)
>

From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun  1 22:21:27 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:21:27 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_Merriam_Webster_Unabr_idged?=
In-Reply-To: <1a1.34e39e2d.2fcf6a82@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

> > Is this worth 30 dollars a year?

Maybe. But why not get the MW3 on CD-ROM instead, for maybe $30 or less
(one time only)?

I use MW3 and RHUD on CD-ROM. Both are good IMHO.

With the MW subscription I guess you get the 11th Collegiate too.

-- Doug Wilson

From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Fri Jun  3 02:10:02 2005
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:10:02 -0700
Subject: Ethics and Disclosures2
Message-ID: 

I suggest that. in any further discussions on this subject, some recognition
be given to the difference between the kind of activity, e.g., drug testing
by private physicians in which there is no public awareness of the
relationship between physician/tester and the drug company that employs
him/her, and the situation such as Mr. Butters was in in which his court
testimony made his position a matter of public record.

Bob Fitzke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Ethics and Disclosures2

> FWIW, here are a few thoughts on the ethics issues currently being
> discussed on ads-l:
>
> 1) I'm uncomfortable with the charge/implication of an ethical breech
> being made by either of the two participants.  Both are honorable figures
> in our field, and it is best to assume that in the "redskin" discussion
> both proceeded in a manner they deemed correct in all respects.
>
> 2) The main point of interest in our ads-l discussions is the linguistic
> material itself.  We now know that Ron was a paid consultant, but so what?
> The ads-l discussions are free-swinging affairs, and its members will
> agree or disagree or remain ambivalent to material presented based on our
> reading of that material itself.  An appeal to authority might work in the
> courtroom but not on ads-l.  To cite just one personal example, I'm
> probably one of the leading
> ads-l etymologists, but whenever I've sent messages whose content is weak,
> I've noticed no bashfulness among ads-l members to disagree.
>
> 3) If I publicly present a paper on "hot dog" to a linguistics conference
> and someone decides to tape it without notifying me first, I would not
> consider this an ethical breech. Such notification would be a courtesy,
> but since the paper is presented very publicly, with the press possibly
> present, the information in the paper should be considered as belonging in
> the public domain.  If the recording would be sold for profit, that of
> course would be different.
>
> 4) We might try to work out ethical rules/guidelines pertaining to future
> discussions such as the "redskin" one, but I suspect this would turn out
> to be a time-consuming and less-than-satisfactory endeavor--grist for the
> mill for an ethics discussion group but a tangent for our ads-l members.
> Ads-l is a
> self-correcting operation. So it's probably best to rely on its
> free-and-open discussions to bring any omitted information to light and to
> see what will survive in its market-place of ideas.
>
> Gerald Cohen

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  1 23:18:59 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:18:59 -0700
Subject: "poser" (before 1990?)
Message-ID: 

My thanks to all seven list members who replied so helpfully to my query about "poser."

The early exx. appear to be unquestionably standard English, and similar current exx. are no doubt findable.

The S.E. "poser" strikes an intellectual attitude. The slang "poser" is essentially an obnoxious outsider with no real connection with the social trend or activity he's currently aping.  Contemporary usage is also strongly associated with youthful or "countercultural" activities.

The distinction may be, I admit, a fine one.

JL
Ed Keer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Ed Keer
Subject: Re: "poser" (before 1990?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I used it in the early 80's. There was a very
important poser/punk dichotomy then. A good place to
look for American cites is the fanzine Maximum
Rockn'Roll. Unfortunately I can't find any online
sources.

It seems to me that punk fanzines could be a great
place for all sorts of research. For example, you
could probably find mullet in them easily. If only
there were searchable collections online.

Ed

--- Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Was anybody using the teenage term "poser" before
> 1990? That's the earliest date I've found on Usenet.
>
> A "poser," for those who in the dark, is a shallow
> but usu. self-assured show-off with only a faddish
> interest in some popular activity, social group,
> musical style, consumer durable, etc.; a "poseur,"
> more or less, but in less refined circles.
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
> Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more.
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  2 02:59:28 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:59:28 -0400
Subject: Billion here, billion there (1955, 1956)
In-Reply-To: <78.742c81c5.2fceaf45@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 2:27 AM -0400 6/1/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>What did we have on this?

I think the common folklore attributes this (often in the form "a
billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about
real money") to Sen. Everett Dirksen (R-Ill.), from sometime in the
1950s.  I don't have any citations to support this attribution.

Larry

>...
>...
>_THESE  MODERN TIMES_
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=11&did=228410252&SrchMode=1&sid=25&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117606924&c
>lientId=65882)
>The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jan 22,
>1955. p. 18 (1 page)
>Harman W. Nichols, of the United Press, sends me a dollar for Children's
>Hospital pinned in a cartoon from "Taxpayers' Dollar," published by the U.S.
>Chamber of Commerce.
>...
>The cartoon shows two fellows walking down the street, and caption reveals
>that the one is explaining in the other:
>"You save a billion here, a billion there, and the first thing you  know--it
>mounts up."
>...
>...
>_WASHINGTON  Scrapbook_
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=12&did=509414242&SrchMode=1&sid=25&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117606704
>&clientId=65882)
>WALTER TROHAN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 7, 1956.
>  p. 7 (1 page) :
>Former President Herbert Hoover, who has twice headed commissions which
>recommended means of streamlining the government and saving tax
>dollars,  believes
>that if the federal government will save a billion here and a billion  there
>it will soon add up to a substantial amount.
>...
>...
>(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 22 AUGUST 2004)

From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun  2 03:02:46 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:02:46 -0700
Subject: Deep Throat (1974)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Quoting FRITZ JUENGLING :

> It just seems so odd to be 'named' after (I don't know how he got tagged with
> 'deep throat'--who tagged him with it?) something so tasteless.
> Fritz
> >>> jester at PANIX.COM 06/01/05 02:56PM >>>
> On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 02:55:40PM -0700, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
> > Which was named first--the movie or the watergate guy?
>
> The Watergate guy was named after the movie.
>
> JTS
>
>

He was named by one of the Post's editors (not Ben Bradlee, but a lesser editor
who didn't know his identity). The name is a play on "deep background," a
newspaper term meaning a source who isn't quoted or even referred to
anonymously, and the movie, which was popular at the time.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  2 05:35:48 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:35:48 EDT
Subject: Never (Don't) bring (take) a knife to a gunfight (gun fight)
 (1989)
Message-ID: 

BRING A KNIFE TO A--8,110 Google hits, 968 Google Groups hits
...
I was doing some political stuff when this came up. I told the guy that  this
was a good one and that I'd look it up, and then I shot him.
...
...
...
_Advertising;  Are teachers looking for fake replicas? Why is Campbell
putting a new spin on  breakfast? _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=117052737&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117689
392&clientId=65882)
Stuart Elliott. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 17,
1998. p. D7 (1 page) :
At a time when motorists are plagued by incidents of "road rage," does it
make sense for the AM General Corporation to run a print ad for its Hummer
vehicles that carries the headline "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"?
...
_HIGHER  FUEL PRICES DO LITTLE TO ALTER MOTORISTS' HABITS; At Most, the Gas
Guzzlers Are  Choosing to Buy Regular Instead of Premium High Fuel Prices Do
Little to Alter  Habits _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=364184092&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1117689662&cl
ientId=65882)
DAVID LEONHARDT. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 10,
2000. p. A1 (2  pages)
Pg. C6:
"Driving a small car now would be like taking a knife to a gun fight," said
Doug Johnson, who owns a small construction company in Austin, Tex.
...
...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4xvNlpr06W4t0ZMbnJ1TVy3EIF+CsZYmrz)
_Wednesday, October 19, 1994_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)
_Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="knife+to+a+gun+fight"+AND+cityid:28660+AND+stateid:67)   _New  York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="knife+to+a+gun+fight"+AND+stateid:67)   ...when
A  mAn brought A KNIFE TO A GUN  FIGHT." Foody sAid. "Another.....6) June 21.
 NormAn Allen killed with A KNIFE At 430  Columbus Ave. Suspect..
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
    _Streaking_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.nude/browse_thread/thread/98d59295acc85356/4f85ff3f3aacb1a3?q="knife+to+a+gunfight"&rnum=307&hl=en#
4f85ff3f3aacb1a3)
;) Something along the lines of "Isn't that just like a wop? Brings a  knife
to a
gunfight!" Lemme see ... don't  want to waste the post. Nudity nudity ... ...

_rec.nude_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.nude?hl=en)  - Oct 21
1990, 11:59 pm  by David Taylor - 3 messages - 3 authors
...

_Early  Wide-screen movies (was: Fantasia...)_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.video/browse_thread/thread/7a2996e8c0d57437/11a81c247794c8a7?q="knif
e+to+a+gun+fight"&rnum=91&hl=en#11a81c247794c8a7)
... about the  best thing I can say is that I kept hoping Rocky and
Bullwinkle  would
show up. "Leave it to a Wop to bring a knife to  a gun fight." Moriarty, aka
...
...
_rec.video_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.video?hl=en)  - Oct 20
1990, 11:58 pm  by Jeff Meyer - 40 messages - 28 authors

   _Home Boy II - Just when you thought it was safe to read the  nets.. ..._
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex/browse_thread/thread/99cad0bdd3590
ceb/6cf29a08339ce485?q="knife+to+a+gunfight"&rnum=308&hl=en#6cf29a08339ce485)

... Well like the old  saying goes: "He was so stupid.. bringing a knife to
a gunfight."
How bout some explosives? I'ma certified  demolitions expert so I'm game. ...

_alt.sex_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex?hl=en)  - Dec 3 1989,
11:31 pm  by --SeebS-- - 14 messages - 11 authors

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Jun  2 07:41:33 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:41:33 -0700
Subject: A Fig Newton of My Imagination
Message-ID: 

108 webcites on Google for "a fig newton of my imagination", 280 for
"...your imagination" and 50 for other possessive pronouns.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

-----
BAT VAMP (THE DARK NIGHT) and Rabid, the Bat Wonder
By Duke Da "It's a fig newton of my imagination" Duck [copyright 1992 by Ken
Cooney] (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1155/batvamp002.html)
-----
I can't remember how one played it - I just remember the name. It's either a
senior moment or a fig newton of my imagination if no one else remembers it.
(Bird, 11 April 2000:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BronxRoots/2000-04/0955482136 $B!K (B
-----
Age: This is not happening. This is, as we used to say in my family, a fig
newton of my imagination. (George Bender, Summer 2001:
http://portlandwriters.com/Drift/2001_July.htm)
-----
(Capitalized webcite)
see, I finally got up enough nerve to ask out this certain young lady (any
resemblance to the actuality of anyone whom you might remember is purely a
Fig Newton of my imagination). (apparently by George "Pappy" Swan ('59),
August 2004: http://alumnisandstorm.tripod.com/htm2004/2004-08-Aug.htm)
-----
(And with a hyphen)
"Yeah, you are a fig-newton of my imagination," Zio said. (author, date
unknown: http://www.phantasy-star.net/xmas/carol2.html)

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun  2 11:14:52 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:14:52 -0400
Subject: Never (Don't) bring (take) a knife to a gunfight (gun fight)
 (1989)
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:35:48 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>... Well like the old  saying goes: "He was so stupid.. bringing a knife
>to a gunfight."
>
>_alt.sex_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex?hl=en)
>- Dec 3 1989, 11:31 pm  by --SeebS-- - 14 messages - 11 authors

-----
_San Francisco Chronicle_, Dec. 12, 1987, p. D2 (Factiva)
"Letters to the Green"
We're gonna rip into your Bears so bad that nothing will give you solace.
The Midway Morons are going to realize they shouldn't have brought a knife
to a gunfight.
-----

(The Niners fan was vindicated, as it turned out... the Bears lost that
game 41-0, and Coach Ditka memorably tossed his gum at some heckling
fans.)

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  2 11:17:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:17:44 -0700
Subject: A Fig Newton of My Imagination
Message-ID: 

I was using this in the mid 80s.  Why I don't know.  (Fig Newtons are good though!)

JL

Benjamin Barrett  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Barrett
Subject: A Fig Newton of My Imagination
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

108 webcites on Google for "a fig newton of my imagination", 280 for
"...your imagination" and 50 for other possessive pronouns.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

-----
BAT VAMP (THE DARK NIGHT) and Rabid, the Bat Wonder
By Duke Da "It's a fig newton of my imagination" Duck [copyright 1992 by Ken
Cooney] (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1155/batvamp002.html)
-----
I can't remember how one played it - I just remember the name. It's either a
senior moment or a fig newton of my imagination if no one else remembers it.
(Bird, 11 April 2000:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BronxRoots/2000-04/0955482136 $B!K (B
-----
Age: This is not happening. This is, as we used to say in my family, a fig
newton of my imagination. (George Bender, Summer 2001:
http://portlandwriters.com/Drift/2001_July.htm)
-----
(Capitalized webcite)
see, I finally got up enough nerve to ask out this certain young lady (any
resemblance to the actuality of anyone whom you might remember is purely a
Fig Newton of my imagination). (apparently by George "Pappy" Swan ('59),
August 2004: http://alumnisandstorm.tripod.com/htm2004/2004-08-Aug.htm)
-----
(And with a hyphen)
"Yeah, you are a fig-newton of my imagination," Zio said. (author, date
unknown: http://www.phantasy-star.net/xmas/carol2.html)

__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com

From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  2 11:43:16 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:43:16 -0400
Subject: A Fig Newton of My Imagination
In-Reply-To: <20050602111744.67066.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Probably because there aren't any fig mints.

dInIs

PS: Good! Sawdust wrapped around stale fruit!

>I was using this in the mid 80s.  Why I don't know.  (Fig Newtons
>are good though!)
>
>JL
>
>Benjamin Barrett  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Benjamin Barrett
>Subject: A Fig Newton of My Imagination
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>108 webcites on Google for "a fig newton of my imagination", 280 for
>"...your imagination" and 50 for other possessive pronouns.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
>
>-----
>BAT VAMP (THE DARK NIGHT) and Rabid, the Bat Wonder
>By Duke Da "It's a fig newton of my imagination" Duck [copyright 1992 by Ken
>Cooney] (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1155/batvamp002.html)
>-----
>I can't remember how one played it - I just remember the name. It's either a
>senior moment or a fig newton of my imagination if no one else remembers it.
>(Bird, 11 April 2000:
>http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BronxRoots/2000-04/0955482136 $B!K (B
>-----
>Age: This is not happening. This is, as we used to say in my family, a fig
>newton of my imagination. (George Bender, Summer 2001:
>http://portlandwriters.com/Drift/2001_July.htm)
>-----
>(Capitalized webcite)
>see, I finally got up enough nerve to ask out this certain young lady (any
>resemblance to the actuality of anyone whom you might remember is purely a
>Fig Newton of my imagination). (apparently by George "Pappy" Swan ('59),
>August 2004: http://alumnisandstorm.tripod.com/htm2004/2004-08-Aug.htm)
>-----
>(And with a hyphen)
>"Yeah, you are a fig-newton of my imagination," Zio said. (author, date
>unknown: http://www.phantasy-star.net/xmas/carol2.html)
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Jun  2 11:46:50 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:46:50 -0400
Subject: "-less" means "less than"? Or "lacking"?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

From:    Wilson Gray 

> So, "stainless" has no real-world referent with respect to steel? A
> seller can advertise carbon steel as "stainless steel," as long as he
> includes a disclaimer _inside_ the packaging that notes that his
> "stainless" steel may actually stain, under normal use?

> I don't know, Dave. It still seems kinda shady to me.

Well, that's because the "stainless" in "stainless steel" doesn't have a
real-world referent to *stains*, and, technically speaking, it doesn't
even have a single referent to a particular sort of *steel*. According
to the Stainless Steel Information Center (yes, even stainless has its
own trade group: http://www.ssina.com/), stainless steel is a low-carbon
steel with 10% or more chromium by weight (with the chromium being the
main thing, apparently), and there's more than 60 different grades  of
it, each with different properties.

So as long as the pots were made of low-carbon steel with 10% or more
chromium by weight, yes, they're stainless steel.

Apparently there's a book out there on the history of stainless steel:
Carl A. Zapffe's "Stainless steels". The use of the plural in the title
is intriguing.

(What *i* want is a good book on the history of nickel. Seriously. Maybe
i'll have to go look for the Nickel Information Center now.)

--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Jun  2 14:52:51 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:52:51 -0400
Subject: Yale Dictionary of Quotations
Message-ID: 

Fred,

        Is it advantageous to you to receive early orders, as opposed to orders after the book actually becomes available?

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Fred Shapiro
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:40 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Yale Dictionary of Quotations

The Yale Dictionary of Quotations is now listed on Amazon.com with a
publication date of September 2006.  I wanted to point this out to this
list serv for a very specific reason:  If Barry or Ben or any of the other
great researchers on this list want to post any more quotation-related
discoveries, now is the time to do it, as the deadline beyond which I
cannot add material to the manuscript is fast approaching.

I also would welcome contributions of good quotations, regardless of
whether a discovery is involved.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  2 15:04:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:04:35 -0700
Subject: get spaced (1966)
Message-ID: 

Ben, thanks for this. It's the earliest by a couple of years.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: get spaced (1966)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does HDAS have for "get spaced" = 'get high'?

"Country Joe and the Fish" by Greg Shaw
_Mojo Navigator_, 22 Nov. 1966 (rocksbackpages.com)
[Barry Melton:] Every time Joe McDonald gets spaced he sings old folk songs.

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  2 15:32:03 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:32:03 -0400
Subject: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
Message-ID: 

Over on the forensic linguistics list, Kate Haworth posted the
following, regarding Ron Butters's (standard) use of "for the nonce":

=======
On a slightly related note, I'm always bemused by colleagues from
over the pond using the term 'nonce' (see below). My understanding of
this word, from my heady days of criminal defence in Liverpool, is as
prison slang for paedophile. Am I alone in this?

Kate Haworth
PhD Student,
School of English Studies,
Nottingham
========

So of course various posters responded, including me--

========
..."nonce" is a standard term for either 'current occasion/moment',
so "for the nonce" = 'for now', or as part of a nominal compound
"nonce word" = one time only coinage, i.e. a word invented for the
occasion.  It's cognate with "once" and ultimately with "one".  Might
you be thinking of "nance", as in "nancy boy"?
=========

--and another who pointed out that while the OED does connect Kate's
"nonce" with "nance", "nancy boy", it is indeed a well-established
spelling in her sense.  But what's interesting for our purposes is
the following response.  Am I correct in supposing that this
unpacking of "nonce" as deriving from the acronym below just one more
etymythology to add to our roster?

Larry

--- begin forwarded text

Date:         Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:37:26 +0100
From: Nicci MacLeod 
Subject: Re: [FL-LIST] PhD scholarship, University of York

Kate,

The proper meaning of the word 'nonce' is a word occurring, invented,
or used just for a particular occasion, from the expression 'for the
nonce'.  A good example would be the suffix '-gate' tagged on to
imply a high-profile scandal involving audiotape (originating, of
course, from Watergate).

Nonce is also a term in cryptography, I believe first used by the
Bletchley Park team. It refers to known phrases that should appear in
plaintext, and thus help your codebreaking efforts.

I understand 'nonce' as a slang word for a child molestor was
originally a term created by prison officers, and originates from the
practice of segregating these offenders in prisons, the term actually
being an acronym for Not On Normal Communal Excercise.

Nicci MacLeod
PhD Student
Dept. of Linguistics and English Language
University of Wales, Bangor

--- end forwarded text

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  2 15:46:21 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:46:21 -0400
Subject: "Ax to Grind"
Message-ID: 

The OED states the following:

"to have axes to grind (orig. U.S. politics): to have private ends to
serve [in reference to a story told by Franklin]"

Can anyone supply any details as to where the Franklin story referred to
here is published?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  2 15:50:31 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:50:31 -0400
Subject: "-less" means "less than"? Or "lacking"?
In-Reply-To: <20050602040011.7F0EEB24F0@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Wilson writes:
   >>>>>
 So, "stainless" has no real-world referent with respect to steel? A
seller can advertise carbon steel as "stainless steel," as long as he
includes a disclaimer _inside_ the packaging that notes that his
"stainless" steel may actually stain, under normal use?

I don't know, Dave. It still seems kinda shady to me.
 <<<<<

I DO know, Wilson. It *is* shady.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Thu Jun  2 16:17:04 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:17:04 +0100
Subject: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

My sources suggest that 'nonce' as 'Not On Normal Communal Excercise' is
indeed a false acronym. Sex offenders are indeed often segregated in UK
prisons, usually at their own request, and this is known as 'going on
Rule 43' (which rule provides for voluntary solitary confinement for the
sake of a prisoner?s safety) or being 'on the rule'..

The first cite I have is from 1970, which also suggests an etymology:

1970 Tony Parker _The Frying-Pan_ 39: ?Nonces? is short for ?nonsenses?:
sex cases, professional mental patients who live in a world of their
own, they never really talk to anyone.

An article in the _Police Review_ of 18 May 1984 suggests a possible
link to 'nancy-boy', an effeminate/gay (young) male, but while some
child-molesters may well be gay, the word deals with all molesters. It
may well tell us more about police prejudices than etymology. The OED's
suggestion of a link to a UK (Lincolnshire) dialect term 'nonse',
meaning a 'good-for-nothing', which seems nearer the Parker quote (taken
from an interview with a serving prisoner), suggesting that one who is a
'nonsense' is of no human value, appears far more likely. 'Nonce',
although I have but a single example, and that from 1999, can be used as
a simple abbreviation of SE 'nonsense'.

FWIW, contemporary prisoners, while using 'nonce', also use 'beast',
with its verb 'to beast', i.e. to subject a child to molestation. (The
online OED has a 1994 cite combining both terms).

Jonathon Green

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Thu Jun  2 17:06:26 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:06:26 +0100
Subject: "Izz" (Mizzother) in 1982!; Kathleen Miller on "Izzle" (Sept.
 2004)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

For reasons that I shan't bore you with now, we are already back in
London (the flat properly secured). So please call us when it's
convenient to arrange Saturday.

Best,

J.

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Thu Jun  2 17:21:53 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:21:53 +0100
Subject: "Izz" (Mizzother) in 1982!; Kathleen Miller on "Izzle" (Sept.
 2004)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Jonathon Green wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Jonathon Green 
>Subject:      Re: "Izz" (Mizzother) in 1982!; Kathleen Miller on "Izzle" (Sept.
>              2004)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>For reasons that I shan't bore you with now, we are already back in
>London (the flat properly secured). So please call us when it's
>convenient to arrange Saturday.
>
>Best,
>
>J.
>
>
>
>

For reasons that I shan't bore you with now, that was meant to go to Jesse S. Apologies to all.

JG

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  2 17:29:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:29:36 -0700
Subject: A Fig Newton of My Imagination
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 2, 2005, at 12:41 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:

> 108 webcites on Google for "a fig newton of my imagination", 280 for
> "...your imagination" and 50 for other possessive pronouns...

as against 34,000 for "figment of my imagination".

surely this started as a (little) joke, on a par with "ladies and
germs", and is still perceived as one by most people.  are there
people who seem to take it seriously?

arnold

From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  2 17:41:38 2005
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:41:38 -0700
Subject: Ethics and Disclosures2
Message-ID: 

>I suggest that. in any further discussions on this subject, some recognition
>be given to the difference between the kind of activity, e.g., drug testing
>by private physicians in which there is no public awareness of the
>relationship between physician/tester and the drug company that employs
>him/her, and the situation such as Mr. Butters was in in which his court
>testimony made his position a matter of public record.

I don't know of existing disclosure policy that makes this
distinction, nor would it really be in the interest of readers or
authors. The fact is that many  grants made to researchers are in
fact matters of public record, in the sense that the sponsoring
corporation or agency announces them publically . That doesn't exempt
researchers from having to disclose them explicitly disclose them in
journal publications, since readers can hardly be expected to do
extensive searches on every author of every publication to find out
whether the research was funded by a corporation with a stake in the
outcome.

Legal opinions become matters of public record only when they are
explicitly cited in a published decision, which covers only a tiny
proportion of the opinions that linguists write. And even then, you
can hardly expect the average reader of a linguistic journal or
attendee at a conference to do a Lexis search every time he or she
hears a paper that bears on a question that has come up in a legal
context, assuming of course that he or she knows of the existence of
such a case (since in some instances the case itself is not mentioned
in the paper). The burden of disclosure should be on the author, not
the reader.

More to the point, what conceivable reason could a researcher have
for NOT disclosing information of this type, when readers clearly
have a right to know if the author had a financial incentive for
reaching a particular conclusion, and when omission of this
information would leave the author open to the inference, whether
fair or not, that he or she was deliberately concealing a source of
funding?

Geoff Nunberg

>Bob Fitzke
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:13 AM
>Subject: Re: Ethics and Disclosures2
>
>>FWIW, here are a few thoughts on the ethics issues currently being
>>discussed on ads-l:
>>
>>1) I'm uncomfortable with the charge/implication of an ethical breech
>>being made by either of the two participants.  Both are honorable figures
>>in our field, and it is best to assume that in the "redskin" discussion
>>both proceeded in a manner they deemed correct in all respects.
>>
>>2) The main point of interest in our ads-l discussions is the linguistic
>>material itself.  We now know that Ron was a paid consultant, but so what?
>>The ads-l discussions are free-swinging affairs, and its members will
>>agree or disagree or remain ambivalent to material presented based on our
>>reading of that material itself.  An appeal to authority might work in the
>>courtroom but not on ads-l.  To cite just one personal example, I'm
>>probably one of the leading
>>ads-l etymologists, but whenever I've sent messages whose content is weak,
>>I've noticed no bashfulness among ads-l members to disagree.
>>
>>3) If I publicly present a paper on "hot dog" to a linguistics conference
>>and someone decides to tape it without notifying me first, I would not
>>consider this an ethical breech. Such notification would be a courtesy,
>>but since the paper is presented very publicly, with the press possibly
>>present, the information in the paper should be considered as belonging in
>>the public domain.  If the recording would be sold for profit, that of
>>course would be different.
>>
>>4) We might try to work out ethical rules/guidelines pertaining to future
>>discussions such as the "redskin" one, but I suspect this would turn out
>>to be a time-consuming and less-than-satisfactory endeavor--grist for the
>>mill for an ethics discussion group but a tangent for our ads-l members.
>>Ads-l is a
>>self-correcting operation. So it's probably best to rely on its
>>free-and-open discussions to bring any omitted information to light and to
>>see what will survive in its market-place of ideas.
>>
>>Gerald Cohen

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  2 17:40:47 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:40:47 -0400
Subject: "Doom and Gloom"
In-Reply-To: <74EB57B5-1ECB-41D6-90F1-75589C4FB292@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

Oxford University Press reference works vary in quality from the
magnificent (like the Oxford English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionary
of American Legal Quotations) to the less magnificent, so one is often
unsure of where in the spectrum a given new book lands.  I am looking at
the Oxford Dictionary of Idioms, s.v. "doom and gloom," and see the
following:

"This expression, sometimes found as _gloom and doom_, was particularly
pertinent to fears about a nuclear holocaust during the cold war period of
the 1950s and 1960s.  It became a catchphrase in the 1968 film _Finian's
Rainbow_."

I doesn't see anything about "gloom and doom" in the "memorable
quotations" listed for this film by Internet Movie Database.  Can anyone
supply any information about how this phrase was used in "Finian's
Rainbow"  and how it became a catchphrase?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  2 21:24:19 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:24:19 -0700
Subject: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
Message-ID: 

Surely "nonce" owes something to "ponce" ?

JL

Jonathon Green  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathon Green
Subject: Re: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My sources suggest that 'nonce' as 'Not On Normal Communal Excercise' is
indeed a false acronym. Sex offenders are indeed often segregated in UK
prisons, usually at their own request, and this is known as 'going on
Rule 43' (which rule provides for voluntary solitary confinement for the
sake of a prisoner?s safety) or being 'on the rule'..

The first cite I have is from 1970, which also suggests an etymology:

1970 Tony Parker _The Frying-Pan_ 39: ?Nonces? is short for ?nonsenses?:
sex cases, professional mental patients who live in a world of their
own, they never really talk to anyone.

An article in the _Police Review_ of 18 May 1984 suggests a possible
link to 'nancy-boy', an effeminate/gay (young) male, but while some
child-molesters may well be gay, the word deals with all molesters. It
may well tell us more about police prejudices than etymology. The OED's
suggestion of a link to a UK (Lincolnshire) dialect term 'nonse',
meaning a 'good-for-nothing', which seems nearer the Parker quote (taken
from an interview with a serving prisoner), suggesting that one who is a
'nonsense' is of no human value, appears far more likely. 'Nonce',
although I have but a single example, and that from 1999, can be used as
a simple abbreviation of SE 'nonsense'.

FWIW, contemporary prisoners, while using 'nonce', also use 'beast',
with its verb 'to beast', i.e. to subject a child to molestation. (The
online OED has a 1994 cite combining both terms).

Jonathon Green

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun  2 23:59:28 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:59:28 -0400
Subject: "Ax to Grind"
Message-ID: 

According to Christine Amer in AHD of Idioms,

"...comes from a story by Charles Miner, published in 1811, about a boy who
was flattered into turning the grindstone for a man sharpening his ax.  He
worked hard untill the school bell rang, whereupon the man, instead of
thanking the boy, began to scold him for being late and told him to hurry to
school."

sam clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: "Ax to Grind"

> The OED states the following:
>
> "to have axes to grind (orig. U.S. politics): to have private ends to
> serve [in reference to a story told by Franklin]"
>
> Can anyone supply any details as to where the Franklin story referred to
> here is published?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun  3 00:16:57 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:16:57 -0400
Subject: "Ax to Grind"
Message-ID: 

And, to get you a little closer--  (Fred--am I correct you can read
Newspaperarchive?)

The story appears in the "Gettysburg Sentinel, 28 Nov. 1810, p.1, col. 2,
saying the story was reprinted from "The Luzerne Federalist."

In the search box, I used  the words grind and axe, and searched before
1820.

sam clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: "Ax to Grind"

> The OED states the following:
>
> "to have axes to grind (orig. U.S. politics): to have private ends to
> serve [in reference to a story told by Franklin]"
>
> Can anyone supply any details as to where the Franklin story referred to
> here is published?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  3 02:14:52 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:14:52 -0400
Subject: Yale Dictionary of Quotations
In-Reply-To: <200506021452.j52EqrHn001978@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Baker, John wrote:

>         Is it advantageous to you to receive early orders, as opposed to
> orders after the book actually becomes available?

Thanks for your thoughtful question.  I suppose early orders are good in
that the publisher sees that "there are already x number of orders" and is
impressed and more motivated to put resources into marketing.

Fred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun  3 05:20:18 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:20:18 -0500
Subject: Never (Don't) bring (take) a knife to a gunfight (gun fight)
 (1989)
Message-ID: 

This probably comes from the 1987 movie "The Untouchables".  Early in the film, Sean Connery's character says:
"You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. "  Which foreshadows a later scene in which a killer breaks into his apartment, and Connery says:  "Isn't that just like a wop? Brings a knife to a gun fight. "  Unfortunately, his character still ends up dead.

________________________________

From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Thu 6/2/2005 12:35 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Never (Don't) bring (take) a knife to a gunfight (gun fight) (1989)

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Fri Jun  3 07:03:21 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:03:21 +0100
Subject: "Going all city" (graffiti everywhere)
In-Reply-To: <200505280435.j4S4Zqjb016655@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 28/5/05 5:35 am, bapopik at AOL.COM at bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Going all city" (graffiti everywhere)
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> http://www.barrypopik.com/article/933/going-all-city-graffiti-slang
> ...
> The movie BOMB THE SYSTEM about "graffiti artists" opened today in New York.
> It mentions "going all city."
> ...
> If anyone has good "tagger slang," send it along.

'Golden Boy as Anthony Cool' by Herbert Kohl / photographs by James Hinton
(Dial Press, NY, 1972), a photo-essay on naming and graffiti, may be of
interest.

--Neil Crawford

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Fri Jun  3 07:16:02 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:16:02 +0100
Subject: "Guys and Dolls"
In-Reply-To: <200505291407.j4TE76HH003827@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 29/5/05 3:09 pm, Fred Shapiro at fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro 
> Subject:      "Guys and Dolls"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> I am including book titles in my quotation dictionary when they have
> "entered the language."  I am trying to decide whether to include Damon
> Runyon's title "Guys and Dolls."  The OED cites this as one of their
> quotations under "guy," but that may or may not mean much.  Does anyone
> have a sense of how linguistically or phraseologically influential
> Runyon's title was?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor

In the 1960s/70s, UK DJ Jimmy Saville addressed his teenage audience as
"guys and gals" -- possibly influenced by Guys and Dolls".

--Neil Crawford

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Jun  3 08:53:11 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:11 +0100
Subject: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>Surely "nonce" owes something to "ponce" ?
>
>JL
>
>
>
Setting aside the chronological disparity - ponces start appearing
(linguistically) c. 1850 and nonces (ditto) a good deal more than a
century later, and indeed the 'occupational' one - I don't think there
is a relationship, other than that of assonance. The idea of a person
being a 'bit of nonsense', or even a 'nonsense' is an acceptable London
working-class/criminal locution. As in 'That cunt at Random House, 'e's
a right bit of nonsense'. The one thing that does link them is the
imponderability of their etymologies. As regards _ponce_, the OED opts
for SE _pounce_, Partridge prefers French _pensionnaire_, a lodger, with
its links to the late 17C _pensioner at/to the petticoat_, a pimp (by
19C abbreviated to simple _pensioner_), while, albeit unlikely, Ian
Hancock in 'Shelta & Polari' (1984) notes French argot _pont
(d?Avignon)_ or _pontonni?re_, a prostitute (who works from the arches
of a bridge). I put forward what I know of _nonce_ yesterday, and still
think it springs both from 'nonsense' and the fact that in the hierarchy
of a UK prison, whence the term originates, the molester is the
considered the lowest of the low, a 'non-person'.

JG

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun  3 09:15:57 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 05:15:57 -0400
Subject: "Doom and Gloom"
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:40:47 -0400, Fred Shapiro 
wrote:

>Oxford University Press reference works vary in quality from the
>magnificent (like the Oxford English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionary
>of American Legal Quotations) to the less magnificent, so one is often
>unsure of where in the spectrum a given new book lands.  I am looking at
>the Oxford Dictionary of Idioms, s.v. "doom and gloom," and see the
>following:
>
>"This expression, sometimes found as _gloom and doom_, was particularly
>pertinent to fears about a nuclear holocaust during the cold war period
>of the 1950s and 1960s.  It became a catchphrase in the 1968 film
>_Finian's Rainbow_."
>
>I doesn't see anything about "gloom and doom" in the "memorable
>quotations" listed for this film by Internet Movie Database.  Can anyone
>supply any information about how this phrase was used in "Finian's
>Rainbow"  and how it became a catchphrase?

The OED has this from the script of the musical:

-----
1947 HARBURG & SAIDY Finian's Rainbow I. ii. 32 Doom and gloom... D-o-o-m
and gl-o-o-m! Ibid. II. iv. 131, I told you that gold could only bring you
doom and gloom, gloom and doom.
-----

Yet another Oxonian reference, _The Oxford Dictionary of New Words_, gives
a bit more information:

-----
gloom and doom
noun phrase
Also in the form doom and gloom (Business World)(Politics)
A feeling or expression of despondency about the future; a grim
prospect, especially in political or financial affairs.

Etymology:  A quotation from the musical Finian's Rainbow (1947,
turned into a film in 1968), in which Og the pessimistic
leprechaun uses the rhyming phrase as a repeated exclamation:

Doom and gloom...D-o-o-m and gl-o-o-m...I told you that
gold could only bring you doom and gloom, gloom and
doom.

History and Usage:  This allusive phrase was first picked up by
US political commentators in the sixties (perhaps as a result of
the popularity of Finian's Rainbow as a film) and was being used
as an attributive phrase to describe any worrying or negative
forecast by the seventies. In the early eighties it was perhaps
particularly associated with economic forecasting and with the
disarmament debate; the emphasis shifted in the second half of
the eighties to the pessimistic forecasts of some
environmentalists about the future of the planet. Both the
nuclear and environmental uses influenced the formation of the
word doomwatch (originally the name of a BBC television series)
for any systematic observation of the planet designed to help
avert its destruction.  A person who makes a forecast of gloom
and doom is a gloom-and-doomster.
-----

(This is a fair-use excerpt taken from a decidedly unfair-use source: the
text of the book as it appears in a Russian "Full-text Internet Library"
.  I've seen similar full-text
sites from .ru -- is this sort of copyright infringement not considered
actionable in Russia?)

Anyway, the doom/gloom combo actually began appearing in US political
discourse in the '50s, not the '60s.  For instance, a front-page story in
the Aug. 20, 1954 _New York Times_ gives details of a speech by Pres.
Eisenhower at the Illinois State Fair, where he ridiculed Democrats as
"prophets of gloom and doom."  (Oddly enough, William Safire has
misattributed that phrase to Adlai Stevenson in several columns.)
Eisenhower might have been inspired by _Finian's Rainbow_, but the
"prophets" formulation appeared well before the opening of the musical:

-----
_New York Times Magazine_ Jan. 22, 1939, p. 14, col. 4
Is the situation, after all, as bad as the prophets of gloom and doom
would have us believe?
("All Is Not Lost In The Fight For Democracy," by David S. Muzzey,
Professor of American History, Columbia University)
-----

The combinations of "doom and gloom" and "gloom and doom" both go back to
the 1890s on Proquest.

--Ben Zimmer

From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  3 09:34:06 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 05:34:06 -0400
Subject: Charlie
In-Reply-To: <4296DFE8.6010205@abecedary.net>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 09:52:56AM +0100, Jonathon Green wrote:
> George Thompson wrote:
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> >Poster:       George Thompson 
> >Subject:      Charlie
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Here is an antedating for U. S. use, and also, it seems, the first wild-
> >caught passage in which the word is used, the OED's two earlier cites
> >(from England) were taken from dictionaries.
> >
> >
> 1821 Egan Life in London (1859) 269: Tom had the CHARLEY in his box down
> in an instant
>
> How the OED missed this - with several other potential 'Charley' cites
> it comes in a three page (plus Cruikshank illustration) episode in
> which 'our heroes' 'mill a charley', apparently a popular sport for
> contemporary young bloods - I cannot say.

Nor can I for sure, but my assumption would be that with a glossarial 1819
in hand, the editors wouldn't have bothered with this 1821 example, even
if it is in running text.

JTS

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun  3 10:59:02 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:59:02 +0200
Subject: The best English dictionary
Message-ID: 

>From my blog:

http://languagejottings.blogspot.com/2005/06/best-english-dictionary.html

I realize that DARE lists ghost turd, but I still think I've found the best
English dictionary out there. Not that I was the first to find it...

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  3 12:13:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 05:13:34 -0700
Subject: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the clarification, Jon.

JL

Jonathon Green  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathon Green
Subject: Re: a "nonce" story--and another faux acronym?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>Surely "nonce" owes something to "ponce" ?
>
>JL
>
>
>
Setting aside the chronological disparity - ponces start appearing
(linguistically) c. 1850 and nonces (ditto) a good deal more than a
century later, and indeed the 'occupational' one - I don't think there
is a relationship, other than that of assonance. The idea of a person
being a 'bit of nonsense', or even a 'nonsense' is an acceptable London
working-class/criminal locution. As in 'That cunt at Random House, 'e's
a right bit of nonsense'. The one thing that does link them is the
imponderability of their etymologies. As regards _ponce_, the OED opts
for SE _pounce_, Partridge prefers French _pensionnaire_, a lodger, with
its links to the late 17C _pensioner at/to the petticoat_, a pimp (by
19C abbreviated to simple _pensioner_), while, albeit unlikely, Ian
Hancock in 'Shelta & Polari' (1984) notes French argot _pont
(d?Avignon)_ or _pontonni?re_, a prostitute (who works from the arches
of a bridge). I put forward what I know of _nonce_ yesterday, and still
think it springs both from 'nonsense' and the fact that in the hierarchy
of a UK prison, whence the term originates, the molester is the
considered the lowest of the low, a 'non-person'.

JG

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  3 12:20:53 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 05:20:53 -0700
Subject: Charlie
Message-ID: 

A good policy for historical lexicography is to present the first two (or even three, in some cases) independent citations at hand.  A big gap suggests limited early currency, a tiny gap a sudden surge.  (Emphasis on "suggests.")

HDAS does not do this consistently because I didn't think of it till some time in Vol. II, as I recall.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: Re: Charlie
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 09:52:56AM +0100, Jonathon Green wrote:
> George Thompson wrote:
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: George Thompson
> >Subject: Charlie
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Here is an antedating for U. S. use, and also, it seems, the first wild-
> >caught passage in which the word is used, the OED's two earlier cites
> >(from England) were taken from dictionaries.
> >
> >
> 1821 Egan Life in London (1859) 269: Tom had the CHARLEY in his box down
> in an instant
>
> How the OED missed this - with several other potential 'Charley' cites
> it comes in a three page (plus Cruikshank illustration) episode in
> which 'our heroes' 'mill a charley', apparently a popular sport for
> contemporary young bloods - I cannot say.

Nor can I for sure, but my assumption would be that with a glossarial 1819
in hand, the editors wouldn't have bothered with this 1821 example, even
if it is in running text.

JTS

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From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Fri Jun  3 13:26:41 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:26:41 +0100
Subject: come on like gangbusters/Buster's gang
Message-ID: 

This variant of the expression is new to me. The story is supposedly set in
the 1940s:

'She had given me a hand-job, too, and I had come like Buster's gang, going
off like a skyrocket, not just once, but twice.'

--Day Dreamer, 'A Girl Named Charlie, part 2: A High School Romance'
http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/Day_Dreamer/Day_Drea
mer.A_Girl_Names_Charlie_Part_2.txt

--Neil Crawford

From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Jun  3 13:42:05 2005
From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:05 -0400
Subject: Doom and Gloom
In-Reply-To: <200506030427.j533jp8H182288@f05n16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun  3 13:55:07 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:55:07 -0700
Subject: Ratzilla: _Phoberomys pattersoni_
Message-ID: 

"Ratzilla: Extinct rodent was big, really big," says the title of an article by Sid Perkins in _Science News_ (Sept. 20, 2003) at http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030920/fob1.asp  .

"Hide the cheese," advises the caption beneath an artist's conception of the "bison-sized" rodent, _Phoberomys Pattersoni_ ("Patterson's Fearsome Mouse," http://www.harpers.org/WeeklyReview2003-09-23.html).

Some reports prefer the marginally more accurate but minimally sexy "Guinea-zilla" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3120950.stm .

Google reveals some 4,000 hits for "ratzilla" on the Web and Usenet. Oddly, the majority seem not to refer to the big guy.

JL

---------------------------------
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  3 15:00:48 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:00:48 -0400
Subject: The best English dictionary
In-Reply-To: <429D78C40006D563@mail21.bluewin.ch> (added by
 postmaster@bluewin.ch)
Message-ID: 

At 12:59 PM +0200 6/3/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>  >From my blog:
>
>http://languagejottings.blogspot.com/2005/06/best-english-dictionary.html
>
>I realize that DARE lists ghost turd, but I still think I've found the best
>English dictionary out there. Not that I was the first to find it...
>
>Paul
>______________________________________
>Paul Frank
>English translation
>from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
>from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
>www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
>e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

Interesting claim, Paul.  But wouldn't the ideal "best dictionary"
resource also direct you somewhere useful (if only to the plural)
when you look up "ghost turd" (in the singular) rather than throw up
its hands and shrug its shoulders as http://www.onelook.com/ does?

Larry

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun  3 15:13:56 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:13:56 +0200
Subject: The best English dictionary
In-Reply-To: <20050603150555.BFFE62B9F@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

> Interesting claim, Paul.  But wouldn't the ideal "best dictionary"
> resource also direct you somewhere useful (if only to the plural)
> when you look up "ghost turd" (in the singular) rather than throw up
> its hands and shrug its shoulders as http://www.onelook.com/ does?
>
> Larry

Yes, ideally. OneLook is a machine. Nor am I denigrating the OED or DARE or
Webster 3. But all in all, I do think OneLook offers much the OED doesn't.
Anyhow, as a monolingual dictionary of contemporary English, the Canadian
Termium (a French-English-Spanish) dictionary arguably beats the OED by a
long shot, though they obviously cover very different sets of words, and
Termium is not a historical dictionary.

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun  3 15:24:13 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:24:13 -0400
Subject: The best English dictionary
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Frank" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: The best English dictionary

> Yes, ideally. OneLook is a machine. Nor am I denigrating the OED or DARE
> or
> Webster 3. But all in all, I do think OneLook offers much the OED doesn't.
> Paul
> ______________________________________

Yeah!!  Hey, OED.  When are you gonna start offering "pop ups" when I visit
your website?  :(

Sam Clements

From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun  3 18:46:12 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:46:12 -0400
Subject: The best English dictionary
Message-ID: 

Just because "dictionary" appears in the title doesn't mean that it has
been made with any understanding of "good" lexicography.  Good
dictionaries are quite complicated, perhaps in part because language is a
complex system.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society  on Friday, June 03, 2005
at 11:00 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>Subject:      Re: The best English dictionary
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 12:59 PM +0200 6/3/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>>  >From my blog:
>>
>>http://languagejottings.blogspot.com/2005/06/best-english-dictionary.html
>>
>>I realize that DARE lists ghost turd, but I still think I've found the
>best
>>English dictionary out there. Not that I was the first to find it...
>>
>>Paul
>>______________________________________
>>Paul Frank
>>English translation
>>from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
>>from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
>>www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
>>e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
>
>Interesting claim, Paul.  But wouldn't the ideal "best dictionary"
>resource also direct you somewhere useful (if only to the plural)
>when you look up "ghost turd" (in the singular) rather than throw up
>its hands and shrug its shoulders as http://www.onelook.com/ does?
>
>Larry

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun  3 18:48:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:48:32 -0400
Subject: "Guys and Dolls"
In-Reply-To: <42ftum$2f8598@mx23.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 3, 2005, at 3:16 AM, neil wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       neil 
> Subject:      Re: "Guys and Dolls"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> on 29/5/05 3:09 pm, Fred Shapiro at fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       Fred Shapiro 
>> Subject:      "Guys and Dolls"
>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> --> -
>>
>> I am including book titles in my quotation dictionary when they have
>> "entered the language."  I am trying to decide whether to include
>> Damon
>> Runyon's title "Guys and Dolls."  The OED cites this as one of their
>> quotations under "guy," but that may or may not mean much.  Does
>> anyone
>> have a sense of how linguistically or phraseologically influential
>> Runyon's title was?
>>
>> Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>
>
> In the 1960s/70s, UK DJ Jimmy Saville addressed his teenage audience as
> "guys and gals" -- possibly influenced by Guys and Dolls".
>
> --Neil Crawford
>

But "guys and gals" goes back to the 'Thirties, more that enough time
for it to have crossed the pond by the 'Sixties. FWIW, my comment
doesn't rise to the level of an opinion, even IMO. It's more like a
WAG. But ti's not impossible,

-Wilson Gray

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun  3 18:58:47 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:58:47 -0400
Subject: hick-hop
Message-ID: 

The term "hick-hop" is showing up frequently these days to describe the
country/rap fusion of performers like Bubba Sparxxx, Big & Rich, and
Cowboy Troy.  I see Grant Barrett's already spotted it:

http://www.doubletongued.org/citations.php/citations/hick_hop_1/

The earliest cites I can find are from 1993:

-----
1993 _Milwaukee Journal_ 17 Jun. D8 (Factiva) The band minus former WK
trombonist/motor-mouth Paul Finger and bassist Al Herzer bows Friday 6/18
at Shank with a sound its members have dubbed "countrified hip-hop" or
"jazzed hick-hop."
-----
1993 _Atlanta Constitution_ 20 Aug. B3 (Nexis) Guitarist Andy Hopkins
suggests the band's genre-blurring music be described as "hick-hop" or
"folk metal."
-----
1993 _Milwaukee Journal_ 4 Nov. 5 (Factiva) Citizen King, featuring former
members of the popular ska band Wild Kingdom, will open the local show at
8 p.m. with its energized brand of "countrified hick-hop."
-----

There have been other meanings of "hick hop" in the past.  It appears in
various N-Archive papers from the '40s as a blend of "hick" and "sock
hop", and a 1992 _Montreal Gazette_ article on "plane talk" defines it as
pilot slang for "a ride carrying passengers a few times around the field
for small sums of money" (also known as a "barf hop" or "flightseeing").

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun  3 19:08:50 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:08:50 -0400
Subject: come on like gangbusters/Buster's gang
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$dmeagb@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Have many people here have actually heard "Gangbusters"? FWIW, I have
and "Gangbusters" didn't "come." Rather, "Gangbusters" came *on*. But
consider this verse from the song, "Searchin'', by The Coasters:

Wherever she's a-hidin'
She's gonna hear me comin'
I'll walk right down that street
Like Bulldog Drummond

Bulldog Drummond was not known for walking down the street. So, at the
end of the day, who can say that the author below wasn't influenced by
"come on like Gangbusters"?

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 3, 2005, at 9:26 AM, neil wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       neil 
> Subject:      come on like gangbusters/Buster's gang
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This variant of the expression is new to me. The story is supposedly
> set in
> the 1940s:
>
> 'She had given me a hand-job, too, and I had come like Buster's gang,
> going
> off like a skyrocket, not just once, but twice.'
>
> --Day Dreamer, 'A Girl Named Charlie, part 2: A High School Romance'
> http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/Day_Dreamer/
> Day_Drea
> mer.A_Girl_Names_Charlie_Part_2.txt
>
> --Neil Crawford
>

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Jun  3 19:16:48 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:16:48 +0200
Subject: The best English dictionary
In-Reply-To: <20050603184618.3C2A556A33@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

> Just because "dictionary" appears in the title doesn't mean that it has
> been made with any understanding of "good" lexicography.  Good
> dictionaries are quite complicated, perhaps in part because language is a
> complex system.
>
> Regards,
> David

We all agree that good (or "good") dictionaries are complex. But I wouldn't
dismiss OneLook quite so cavalierly. A search engine that allows you to
search scores of good dictionaries, and a couple of excellent dictionaries,
at a keystroke or two is a very useful tool. And OneLook is the best such
search engine I've seen.

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun  3 22:18:05 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:18:05 -0400
Subject: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?
Message-ID: 

Perhaps this one will get into the next edition of someone's food book.

I think the earliest cite(1946) so far is Barry's.  He correctly noticed that it seemed to originate in Ohio.  

The connection to the popularity of "Sloppy Joe's" bar in Havanna the previous 30 or more years was always tempting.  Perhaps now we have proof.

>From Newspaperarchive-- _The Coshocton(OH) Tribune_  29 Oct, 1944, p. 11, columns 3 & 5.  Both are advertisements.

>From col. 3

       SLOPPY JOES' -10 cents
       Originated in Cuba
       You'll ask for more    
       THE HAMBURGER SHOP

and, from column 5 

       SLOPPY JOES' ..10 cents
       "Hap" is introducing
       The New Sandwich At
       The HAMBURG Shop
       SLOPPY JOES' 10 CENTS

Of course, we still don't know from these cites if the "Sloppy Joes' " from these cites are the sloppy joes we know from the last 30 or more years.

Sam Clements 

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  3 23:23:56 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:23:56 -0400
Subject: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?
In-Reply-To: <007201c5688a$1d9cad70$3b631941@sam>
Message-ID: 

>Perhaps this one will get into the next edition of someone's food book.
>
>I think the earliest cite(1946) so far is Barry's.  He correctly noticed
>that it seemed to originate in Ohio.
>
>The connection to the popularity of "Sloppy Joe's" bar in Havanna the
>previous 30 or more years was always tempting.  Perhaps now we have proof.
>
>>>From Newspaperarchive-- _The Coshocton(OH) Tribune_  29 Oct, 1944, p. 11,
>>columns 3 & 5.  Both are advertisements.
>
>>>From col. 3
>
>       SLOPPY JOES' -10 cents
>       Originated in Cuba
>       You'll ask for more
>       THE HAMBURGER SHOP

>and, from column 5
>
>       SLOPPY JOES' ..10 cents
>       "Hap" is introducing
>       The New Sandwich At
>       The HAMBURG Shop
>       SLOPPY JOES' 10 CENTS
>
>Of course, we still don't know from these cites if the "Sloppy Joes' "
>>from these cites are the sloppy joes we know from the last 30 or more
>years.
>
>Sam Clements
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know what connection, if any, this has with the sandwich, but
"Sloppy Joe (or Jo?)" was the term for the oversized pullover sweater (worn
with the sleeves pushed up & a small bead necklace, usually pearls), which
was the virtual uniform of adolescent girls in the early forties -- at
least from '42. Bobby socks and saddle shoes completed the acceptable look.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun  3 23:31:15 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:31:15 -0400
Subject: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "sagehen" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?

> I don't know what connection, if any, this has with the sandwich, but
> "Sloppy Joe (or Jo?)" was the term for the oversized pullover sweater
> (worn
> with the sleeves pushed up & a small bead necklace, usually pearls), which
> was the virtual uniform of adolescent girls in the early forties -- at
> least from '42. Bobby socks and saddle shoes completed the acceptable
> look.
> A. Murie

I think none.  I waded through perhaps 1000 cites for the sweater but could
never make a connection.  The fashion had begun to die around the time the
sandwich made its appearance, but the "Cuba" in the advertisement clinches
it, at least for me.

Sam Clements

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 00:26:28 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:26:28 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Ethics=20and=20Disc?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?losures2?=
Message-ID: 

Most people I have heard from on this issue seem to believe that medical 
research--or any research where the public may be directly affected by a published 
article (as distinct from the legal proceedings that may have engendered 
it)--needs somewhat stricter adherence to policies of revelation of possible 
conflict of interest than does linguistic research. This is no doubt why the 
Linguistic Society of America has never instituted a policy, despite Dr. Nunberg's 
erstwhile attempt, and perhaps also why he "dropped the ball"--it didn't seem 
important enough to anyone to pursue it.

Even so, I agree almost totally with Dr. Nunberg here. In any case, it is 
easy enough to add a footnote to a published article, and it is often not 
apparent that an author had a connection with a law firm. However, I continue to feel 
it necessary to insist that "incentives" are not only financial, and that, 
indeed, partisanship engendered by zealousness for a particular social or 
political cause can be just as damaging, if not moreso.

Another thing (again, echoing Larry Solan's posting) that any official policy 
should consider is that the research somewhere in the background to the 
"conclusions" that one comes to in a scholarly article may be relatively remote 
from the "conclusions" that one came to in court. One should no doubt err on the 
side of purity and virtue of course, as Larry suggested. But it is not 
necessarily a simple matter. 

Finally, as relates to this list-serve and to the American Dialect Society, 
it seems to me that this is not really the place to continue this discussion 
further. I have already explained why I believe that Dr. Nunberg's charge of an 
ethical lapse on my part with respect to this list-serve is not valid. He has 
never answered that, and no one else has agreed with him. I assume that, if 
the person who manages this list felt that I had been unethical, he would have 
reprimanded me. So, I consider that matter closed.

I have already made it clear that I have never (to my knowledge) published an 
article in violation of the code of ethics that Dr. Nunberg proposes that we 
now implement, and that I thank him--I'm sure we all thank him--for raising 
the issue of ethics in publication, and I suggest that he take the matter up 
with the Executive Committee of the American Dialect Society (if he is a member) 
if he has proposals to make about ADS publications.

I have also already made it clear that I accept Dr. Nunberg's proposal that I 
join with him to bring the matter before the Linguistic Society of America. 
He has not yet responded to me about that.

I propose, then, that we end this thread on this list-serve, and take the 
question to more appropriate venues.

In a message dated 6/2/05 1:42:08 PM, nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:

> >I suggest that. in any further discussions on this subject, some 
> recognition
> >be given to the difference between the kind of activity, e.g., drug testing
> >by private physicians in which there is no public awareness of the
> >relationship between physician/tester and the drug company that employs
> >him/her, and the situation such as Mr. Butters was in in which his court
> >testimony made his position a matter of public record.
> 
> I don't know of existing disclosure policy that makes this
> distinction, nor would it really be in the interest of readers or
> authors. The fact is that many? grants made to researchers are in
> fact matters of public record, in the sense that the sponsoring
> corporation or agency announces them publicly. That doesn't exempt
> researchers from having to disclose them explicitly disclose them in
> journal publications, since readers can hardly be expected to do
> extensive searches on every author of every publication to find out
> whether the research was funded by a corporation with a stake in the
> outcome.
> 
> Legal opinions become matters of public record only when they are
> explicitly cited in a published decision, which covers only a tiny
> proportion of the opinions that linguists write. And even then, you
> can hardly expect the average reader of a linguistic journal or
> attendee at a conference to do a Lexis search every time he or she
> hears a paper that bears on a question that has come up in a legal
> context, assuming of course that he or she knows of the existence of
> such a case (since in some instances the case itself is not mentioned
> in the paper). The burden of disclosure should be on the author, not
> the reader.
> 
> More to the point, what conceivable reason could a researcher have
> for NOT disclosing information of this type, when readers clearly
> have a right to know if the author had a financial incentive for
> reaching a particular conclusion, and when omission of this
> information would leave the author open to the inference, whether
> fair or not, that he or she was deliberately concealing a source of
> funding?
> 
> Geoff Nunberg
> 

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun  4 01:19:54 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:19:54 -0400
Subject: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?
Message-ID: 

Now that I've hung myself out to dry, I went back to Newspaperarchive, and
typed in "sloppy joes sandwich" as three separate words, no quote marks. And
what pops up is an earlier cite.  Don't ask me how I did this.

Again.  Ohio.

>From the _Mansfield(OH) News Journal_, 27 March, 1940, p. 14, col. 4
(Again, an advertisement).

    HAMILTON'S
             New
   SANDWICH BAR
       Featuring
           5 cent
           Hot Dogs---
          Barbecues---
          Sloppy Joes
    Over 30 Different Kinds
      of Sandwiches

So, I still say the sandwich came from Cuba, and the bar called Sloppy
Joe's, a favorite with Americans. before the war.

I'm just surprised at this earlier finding.    And, yes, I did check the
masthead of the paper to insure it wasn't a false hit.

Sam Clements

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun  4 02:36:03 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:36:03 -0400
Subject: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:19:54 -0400, Sam Clements  wrote:

>>From the _Mansfield(OH) News Journal_, 27 March, 1940, p. 14, col. 4
>(Again, an advertisement).
>
>    HAMILTON'S
>             New
>   SANDWICH BAR
>       Featuring
>           5 cent
>           Hot Dogs---
>          Barbecues---
>          Sloppy Joes
>    Over 30 Different Kinds
>      of Sandwiches
>
>So, I still say the sandwich came from Cuba, and the bar called Sloppy
>Joe's, a favorite with Americans. before the war.

How do we know there's no connection with the Sloppy Joe's Bar in Key West
frequented by Hemingway in the '30s?

A current Key West bar named Captain Tony's Saloon claims to be the true
successor of the original Sloppy Joe's and recently settled a lawsuit with
another bar down the block using the "Sloppy Joe's" name.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/26/State/Hemingway_s_old_haunt.shtml
http://www.capttonyssaloon.com/truth.html

--Ben Zimmer

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun  4 03:03:31 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:03:31 -0400
Subject: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?
Message-ID: 

Ben,

You could be correct.  I remember in all of the cites I read that there were
hundreds(thousands?) of "Sloppy Joes" in the US. in the 1930's.

I just thought the addition of the "Cuba" line in the ad was important.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Zimmer" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Sloppy Joe-the sandwich (1944)-Cuba?

> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:19:54 -0400, Sam Clements 
> wrote:
>
>>>From the _Mansfield(OH) News Journal_, 27 March, 1940, p. 14, col. 4
>>(Again, an advertisement).
>>
>>    HAMILTON'S
>>             New
>>   SANDWICH BAR
>>       Featuring
>>           5 cent
>>           Hot Dogs---
>>          Barbecues---
>>          Sloppy Joes
>>    Over 30 Different Kinds
>>      of Sandwiches
>>
>>So, I still say the sandwich came from Cuba, and the bar called Sloppy
>>Joe's, a favorite with Americans. before the war.
>
> How do we know there's no connection with the Sloppy Joe's Bar in Key West
> frequented by Hemingway in the '30s?
>
> A current Key West bar named Captain Tony's Saloon claims to be the true
> successor of the original Sloppy Joe's and recently settled a lawsuit with
> another bar down the block using the "Sloppy Joe's" name.
>
> http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/26/State/Hemingway_s_old_haunt.shtml
> http://www.capttonyssaloon.com/truth.html
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 06:18:13 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 02:18:13 EDT
Subject: Horse-Collar Tackle; Can't cover a baby with a blanket
Message-ID: 

HORSE COLLAR TACKLE
...
The "horse collar tackle" was recently banned by the NFL. The Budweiser  
horses can now breathe easier.
...
...  
_http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2067
728_ 
(http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2067728) 
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The so-called "horse-collar" tackle, which came under  
heavy scrutiny from the NFL's powerful competition committee after _Dallas 
Cowboys_ (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=dal)  safety _Roy Williams_ 
(http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5894)  injured four 
players with the maneuver in  2004, was banned by the league on Tuesday. 
...
...
_Horse-collar tackling ban_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.pitt-steelers/browse_thread/thread/c3587be9eab0987/96f2814d22a533c2
?q="horse+collar+tackle"&rnum=1&hl=en#96f2814d22a533c2)   
news:d7napv0vqr at drn.newsguy.com... Unlike the face mask, I can't recall
a  serious injury directly related to a horse-collar tackle?  ...   
_alt.sports.football.pro.pitt-steelers_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.pitt-steelers?hl=en)  - Jun 2,  9:47 pm by Dan Cosley 
- 5 messages - 5 authors
...
    _horse-collar tackle banned next  week_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.sd-chargers/browse_thread/thread/fd182801b70957df/0
e07b3bb24221460?q="horse+collar+tackle"&rnum=1&hl=en#0e07b3bb24221460)  
... But then I read " To distinguish  between a horse-collar tackle and a 
tackle  that
occurs during close, in-line play, the foul must occur at least 3  yards ...  

_alt.sports.football.pro.sd-chargers_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.sd-chargers?hl=en)  - May 21, 2:18 am by  Raymond Feist 
- 5 messages - 3 authors 
...

_Cowboys  Roy Williams Is Outlawed_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.phila-eagles/browse_thread/thread/13e76bacb18963ee/a85de625
be1a0502?q="horse+collar+tackle"&rnum=2&hl=en#a85de625be1a0502)  
... No horsing around  Cowboys safety Roy Williams is hardly the lone 
defender in the
league  to employ the so-called "horse-collar" tackle, but  his play in 2004 
was ...   
_alt.sports.football.pro.phila-eagles_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.phila-eagles?hl=en)  - May 20, 11:33 pm by  
JD$eagles$ - 115 messages - 14 authors 
...
_NFL Continues to Explore Its Feminine Side_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots/browse_thread/thread/c015a53f4aab1fa8/
14bff53f5cf96b4a?q="horse+collar+tackle"&rnum=20&hl=en#14bff53f5cf96b4a)   
... Also under discussion this week is the specific  "horse collar" tackle by 
Cowboys
safety Roy  Williams that broke the leg of Eagles receiver Terrell Owens. ... 

_alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots?hl=en)  - Mar 16, 1:37 am by  ScottLK - 40 
messages - 8 authors 

...
_Question about facemasking._ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy/browse_thread/thread/cb72d1940d41c1cd/5d0fe467a591ff3c?q="hors
e+collar+tackle"&rnum=2&hl=en#5d0fe467a591ff3c)  
... The  rb/wr ducking their helmet is a self defense move. If they don't it
gets  knocked off or it's to avoid a "horse collar" tackle.  
_rec.sport.football.fantasy_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.fantasy?hl=en)  - Jan 25 2000,  5:41 pm by James Wentworth - 6 
messages - 5 authors 
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
CAN'T COVER A BABY WITH A BLANKET
...
"Cover" in football means to prevent passes in your area of the field.  Thus, 
we have "cover corners" (cornerbacks).
...
"Can't cover a baby with a blanket" is a new insult.
...
...
_http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/NFC/NFC+East/Dallas/Features/2005/ed
holm042805.htm_ 
(http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/NFC/NFC+East/Dallas/Features/2005/edholm042805.htm) 
There?s no free safety right now, and it scares me a little that the  leading 
candidates are a special-teams guy who really never has played in the  base 
defense (Keith Davis), a sixth-round pick who was covering tight ends and  slot 
receivers in the MAC five months ago (Justin Beriault) and a strong safety  
(Roy Williams) who couldn?t cover a baby with a blanket
...
_RonFez.Net Message Board: MESSAGES: Real Giants Fans  Only_ 
(http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/82/Topic/22835/currentpage/1/page/Re
al_Giants_Fans_Only.htm)      ... Joined: Nov 2001. My Mod Quote: The  
emperor stole his clothes! At this point, Jason Sehorn  couldn't cover a baby with a 
 blanket. Why is he still out there? ... 
www.ronfez.net/.../viewmessages.cfm/Forum/  
82/Topic/22835/currentpage/1/page/Real_Giants_Fans_Only.htm - 41k -  Supplemental Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rrrY3KtLtYsJ:www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessage
s.cfm/Forum/82/Topic/22835/currentpage/1/page/Real_Giants_Fans_Only.htm+"could
n't+cover+a+baby+with"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessage
s.cfm/Forum/82/Topic/22835/currentpage/1/page/Real_Giants_Fans_Only.htm) 

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun  4 07:51:11 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:51:11 -0400
Subject: Horse-Collar Tackle; Can't cover a baby with a blanket
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 02:18:13 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>HORSE COLLAR TACKLE
>...
>The "horse collar tackle" was recently banned by the NFL. The Budweiser
>horses can now breathe easier.

-----
1949 _Monessen Daily Independent_ (Pa.) 1 Sep. 5/3 (photo caption) Alonzo
Mays put a horse collar tackle on the burly ball-carrier.
-----

I don't see any other cites in the databases before 1969.

--Ben Zimmer

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  4 10:45:21 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:45:21 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first citation
for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the foolishness of an
idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to the Future_ (1985):
"Hello? McFly?"  Would anyone hazard a guess as to whether this usage was
coined or popularized by that film?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun  4 13:20:30 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:20:30 -0700
Subject: obesiology
Message-ID: 

2005 _Natural History_ (May) 9  "Misstating Leibel's contributions to the new field of obesiology."

The study of obesity.

Incredibly, Google provides only two hits, the earliest from 1998.

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Jun  4 13:38:23 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:38:23 -0400
Subject: cupping/"Apple Computer of"
Message-ID: 

Am I  the last person to have heard?

---
EMERYVILLE, Calif. - Doug Welsh picked up the first of 12 glasses of
coffee. He noisily slurped a spoonful, savored it briefly, then
immediately spit it out.

Sales of beans make up 45 percent of the retail revenue at Peet's Coffee
and Tea, which is based in a brick warehouse in Emeryville, Calif., just
south of Berkeley. Mike Madden prepares to load beans into a roaster.
Mr. Welsh, the vice president for coffee at Peet's Coffee and Tea, a
regional coffee retailer with its home here in the San Francisco Bay Area,
was "cupping" - testing samples of beans recently shipped from the Nairobi
coffee auction.

Mr. Welsh readily concedes that most customers would never know the
difference. But buying what Peet's considers an inferior bean, he said,
"is not a road we want to go down."

In the Bay Area, Peet's has long been the Apple Computer of coffee,
serving a small but intense group of aficionados who are convinced that
the company's coffee is superior to that produced by the industry giant
from Seattle: Starbucks.
---

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/business/04coffee.html?

Bethany
Peet's aficionado

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 13:44:24 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:44:24 -0400
Subject: cupping/"Apple Computer of"
Message-ID: 

Actually, only the new Treo 650 actually makes coffee. Apple has not caught up.

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 13:50:26 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:50:26 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

I have a totally unscientific intuition that I first recall this in connection with MONTY PYTHON's
FLYING CIRCUS. If true, then the usage goes back to the 1970s (?) for US audiences. When it was actually used by someone in a US publication I don't know.

In a message dated 6/4/2005 6:45:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Fred Shapiro  writes:

>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first citation
>for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the foolishness of an
>idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to the Future_ (1985):
>"Hello? McFly?"  Would anyone hazard a guess as to whether this usage was
>coined or popularized by that film?
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

From dcamp at CHILITECH.NET  Sat Jun  4 14:04:35 2005
From: dcamp at CHILITECH.NET (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:04:35 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

I have always assumed such usage was 19th century. I can't give an exact
cite this morning, but I can picture Sherlock Holmes turning to Watson and
saying something like, "Hello. What have we here?"

D

----- Original Message -----

> I have a totally unscientific intuition that I first recall this in
> connection with MONTY PYTHON's
> FLYING CIRCUS. If true, then the usage goes back to the 1970s (?) for US
> audiences. When it was actually used by someone in a US publication I
> don't know.
>
> In a message dated 6/4/2005 6:45:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Fred Shapiro
>  writes:
>
>>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first citation
>>for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the foolishness of an
>>idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to the Future_ (1985):
>>"Hello? McFly?"  Would anyone hazard a guess as to whether this usage was
>>coined or popularized by that film?
>>
>>Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun  4 16:04:09 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:04:09 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:04:35 -0400, Duane Campbell 
wrote:
>> In a message dated 6/4/2005 6:45:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Fred
>> Shapiro  writes:
>>
>>>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first
>>>citation for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the
>>>foolishness of an idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to
>>>the Future_ (1985): "Hello? McFly?"  Would anyone hazard a guess as
>>>to whether this usage was coined or popularized by that film?
>
>I have always assumed such usage was 19th century. I can't give an exact
>cite this morning, but I can picture Sherlock Holmes turning to Watson
>and saying something like, "Hello. What have we here?"

But that's just the plain old "exclamation to call attention," as in this
OED cite:

-----
1888 BLACK Adv. House-boat xxiii, Hello--here's more about evolution.
-----

What we're looking for is the use of the exclamation to call attention to
the *foolishness* of something/someone.  As HDAS points out, this is
"typically pronounced with strong stress and falling intonation on [the]
ultimate syllable," which is hard to represent in print (sometimes it
shows up as a lengthened "Helloooo?" or something similar).

Here's a recent example of "Hello" in print that I believe requires the
"McFly" reading:

-----
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/nora-ephron/deep-throat-and-me-now-i_1917.html
Nora Ephron, "Deep Throat and Me: Now It Can Be Told, and Not for the
First Time Either"
[...]
The clues to Deep Throat?s identity were clear:
Bob and Carl wrote in All the Presidents Men that Woodward?s code name for
their source ? before he was christened Deep Throat by Washington Post
manager editor Howard Simons -- was My Friend. Hello.
[...]
-----

Ephron didn't bother trying to represent the stress pattern (or even add a
question mark), so this looks a bit odd on the page.

--Ben Zimmer

From Berson at ATT.NET  Sat Jun  4 15:58:39 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:58:39 -0400
Subject: "He's got a Piece of Bread and Cheese in his Head" = "He's drunk"?
Message-ID: 

What might be the origin of "He's got a Piece of Bread and Cheese in his
Head", meaning "he's drunk"?

I note that Benjamin Franklin, speaking of his fellow compositors at
Watts's printing house in London, wrote of "their muddling Breakfast of
Beer and Bread and Cheese" (Autobiography, ed. Labaree et al, 1964, page
101).  Does that provide any clues?

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun  4 16:53:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:53:13 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:45:21 -0400, Fred Shapiro 
wrote:
>
>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first citation
>for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the foolishness of an
>idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to the Future_ (1985):
>"Hello? McFly?"  Would anyone hazard a guess as to whether this usage was
>coined or popularized by that film?

Now that I look for the line in online sources, I think the HDAS quote may
be slightly wrong.  There are two relevant scenes: one in the present
(1985) and one in the past (1955), showing that the relationship between
George McFly (played by Crispin Glover) and Biff Tannen (played by Tom
Wilson) hasn't changed over thirty years:

-----
http://fusion-industries1.tripod.com/scene4thefamilymcfly/
Biff: And where's my reports?
George: Uh, well, I haven't finished those up yet, but you know I figured
since they weren't due til..
Biff: Hello, hello, anybody home? Think, McFly, think. I gotta have time
to get 'em retyped. Do you realize what would happen if I hand in my
reports in your handwriting? I'll get fired. You wouldn't want that to
happen would you? Would you?
-----
http://fusion-industries1.tripod.com/scene8dadthedork/
Biff: Hey, you got my homework finished, McFly?
George: Uh...well, actually, I figured since it wasn't due till Monday.
Biff: Hello, hello, anybody home? Think, McFly, think. I gotta have time
to recopy it. Do you realize what would happen if I hand in my homework in
your handwriting? I'd get kicked out of school. You wouldn't want that to
happen would you...would you?
-----

Here are sound files for the line, "Hello, hello, anybody home? Think,
McFly, think."

http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/4137/back24.wav
http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/mcfly.wav

(You can hear Biff rapping George's head, as if he's knocking on a door.)

The funny thing is, I remember the line the way it appears in HDAS -- as
simply, "Hello, McFly!"  Google suggests many others remember it that way
too.  Certainly that was the catchphrase among high schoolers after the
movie came out. (And as HDAS records, the movie _Clueless_ revitalized the
usage a decade later -- minus "McFly" of course.)

--Ben Zimmer

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  4 18:43:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:43:08 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <38230.69.142.143.59.1117903993.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

According to the Cassell Dictionary of Catchphrases,

"The actual phrase was taken from a hit record entitled 'Respect' (1967)
recorded by Aretha Franklin, which featured a chorus repeating 'Sock it to
me' quite rapidly in the background."

Can anyone confirm that this was the chorus?  Also, does anyone know of
any pre-1967 usage of "sock it to me" (I am aware of 19th-century usage of
the phrase "sock it to him")?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Sat Jun  4 19:17:13 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:17:13 -0500
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <200506041845.j54Ijn9P028015@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Fred Shapiro wrote:
> According to the Cassell Dictionary of Catchphrases,
>
> "The actual phrase was taken from a hit record entitled 'Respect' (1967)
> recorded by Aretha Franklin, which featured a chorus repeating 'Sock it to
> me' quite rapidly in the background."
>
> Can anyone confirm that this was the chorus?

Yep.

Jim Parish

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun  4 20:01:17 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:01:17 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
In-Reply-To: <38230.69.142.143.59.1117903993.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:53 PM -0400 6/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:45:21 -0400, Fred Shapiro 
>wrote:
>>
>>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first citation
>>for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the foolishness of an
>>idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to the Future_ (1985):
>>"Hello? McFly?"  Would anyone hazard a guess as to whether this usage was
>>coined or popularized by that film?
>
>Now that I look for the line in online sources, I think the HDAS quote may
>be slightly wrong.  There are two relevant scenes: one in the present
>(1985) and one in the past (1955), showing that the relationship between
>George McFly (played by Crispin Glover) and Biff Tannen (played by Tom
>Wilson) hasn't changed over thirty years:

Heh heh.  Is it part of the speech act that the speaker has to rap
the addressee on the head at the same time?  As I recall, Biff does
so to George, as if to ask "Anyone home in there?"

Larry

>
>-----
>http://fusion-industries1.tripod.com/scene4thefamilymcfly/
>Biff: And where's my reports?
>George: Uh, well, I haven't finished those up yet, but you know I figured
>since they weren't due til..
>Biff: Hello, hello, anybody home? Think, McFly, think. I gotta have time
>to get 'em retyped. Do you realize what would happen if I hand in my
>reports in your handwriting? I'll get fired. You wouldn't want that to
>happen would you? Would you?
>-----
>http://fusion-industries1.tripod.com/scene8dadthedork/
>Biff: Hey, you got my homework finished, McFly?
>George: Uh...well, actually, I figured since it wasn't due till Monday.
>Biff: Hello, hello, anybody home? Think, McFly, think. I gotta have time
>to recopy it. Do you realize what would happen if I hand in my homework in
>your handwriting? I'd get kicked out of school. You wouldn't want that to
>happen would you...would you?
>-----
>
>Here are sound files for the line, "Hello, hello, anybody home? Think,
>McFly, think."
>
>http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/4137/back24.wav
>http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/mcfly.wav
>
>(You can hear Biff rapping George's head, as if he's knocking on a door.)
>
>The funny thing is, I remember the line the way it appears in HDAS -- as
>simply, "Hello, McFly!"  Google suggests many others remember it that way
>too.  Certainly that was the catchphrase among high schoolers after the
>movie came out. (And as HDAS records, the movie _Clueless_ revitalized the
>usage a decade later -- minus "McFly" of course.)
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 21:14:35 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:14:35 -0400
Subject: SRO (1890 Standing Room Only; 1941 Single Room Occupancy)
Message-ID: 

http://www.barrypopik.com/article/965/sro-standing-room-only-single-room-occupancy
...
Both "SRO" definitions possibly come from New York City. Does anyone have earlier dates?
...
OED's 1941 "SRO" ("single room occupancy") is under "palsy," but that seems to have disappeared under the March 2005 revision of that word. Where is it?
...
Did I post an "SRO" to the old ADS-L archives?

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun  4 21:53:09 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:53:09 -0700
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

I would add that in this sense the word is pronounced in an exaggerated sing-song manner.

My feeling is that it antedates the film by a few years, but I neglected to note it before that time.  Might "Saturday Night Live" have been the effective source ?

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: Current Usage of "Hello"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:04:35 -0400, Duane Campbell
wrote:
>> In a message dated 6/4/2005 6:45:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Fred
>> Shapiro writes:
>>
>>>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first
>>>citation for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the
>>>foolishness of an idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to
>>>the Future_ (1985): "Hello? McFly?" Would anyone hazard a guess as
>>>to whether this usage was coined or popularized by that film?
>
>I have always assumed such usage was 19th century. I can't give an exact
>cite this morning, but I can picture Sherlock Holmes turning to Watson
>and saying something like, "Hello. What have we here?"

But that's just the plain old "exclamation to call attention," as in this
OED cite:

-----
1888 BLACK Adv. House-boat xxiii, Hello--here's more about evolution.
-----

What we're looking for is the use of the exclamation to call attention to
the *foolishness* of something/someone. As HDAS points out, this is
"typically pronounced with strong stress and falling intonation on [the]
ultimate syllable," which is hard to represent in print (sometimes it
shows up as a lengthened "Helloooo?" or something similar).

Here's a recent example of "Hello" in print that I believe requires the
"McFly" reading:

-----
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/nora-ephron/deep-throat-and-me-now-i_1917.html
Nora Ephron, "Deep Throat and Me: Now It Can Be Told, and Not for the
First Time Either"
[...]
The clues to Deep Throat?s identity were clear:
Bob and Carl wrote in All the Presidents Men that Woodward?s code name for
their source ? before he was christened Deep Throat by Washington Post
manager editor Howard Simons -- was My Friend. Hello.
[...]
-----

Ephron didn't bother trying to represent the stress pattern (or even add a
question mark), so this looks a bit odd on the page.

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun  4 22:06:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:06:15 -0700
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

Here's a good ex. from Usenet ( "Sentences without past tense," sci.lang, June 17, 1996) :

">-- first of all we cannot force changes like that upon a language, and
>second of all the effect those changes would have are impossible to
>predict.

Hel-lo-o??  Changes in language take place all the time.  Since WE are
the only ones using language, why shouldn't WE try to effect change?"

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: Current Usage of "Hello"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:45:21 -0400, Fred Shapiro
wrote:
>
>The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives, as its first citation
>for _hello_ 'interjection used to call attention to the foolishness of an
>idea, comment, etc.' a line from the film _Back to the Future_ (1985):
>"Hello? McFly?" Would anyone hazard a guess as to whether this usage was
>coined or popularized by that film?

Now that I look for the line in online sources, I think the HDAS quote may
be slightly wrong. There are two relevant scenes: one in the present
(1985) and one in the past (1955), showing that the relationship between
George McFly (played by Crispin Glover) and Biff Tannen (played by Tom
Wilson) hasn't changed over thirty years:

-----
http://fusion-industries1.tripod.com/scene4thefamilymcfly/
Biff: And where's my reports?
George: Uh, well, I haven't finished those up yet, but you know I figured
since they weren't due til..
Biff: Hello, hello, anybody home? Think, McFly, think. I gotta have time
to get 'em retyped. Do you realize what would happen if I hand in my
reports in your handwriting? I'll get fired. You wouldn't want that to
happen would you? Would you?
-----
http://fusion-industries1.tripod.com/scene8dadthedork/
Biff: Hey, you got my homework finished, McFly?
George: Uh...well, actually, I figured since it wasn't due till Monday.
Biff: Hello, hello, anybody home? Think, McFly, think. I gotta have time
to recopy it. Do you realize what would happen if I hand in my homework in
your handwriting? I'd get kicked out of school. You wouldn't want that to
happen would you...would you?
-----

Here are sound files for the line, "Hello, hello, anybody home? Think,
McFly, think."

http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/4137/back24.wav
http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/mcfly.wav

(You can hear Biff rapping George's head, as if he's knocking on a door.)

The funny thing is, I remember the line the way it appears in HDAS -- as
simply, "Hello, McFly!" Google suggests many others remember it that way
too. Certainly that was the catchphrase among high schoolers after the
movie came out. (And as HDAS records, the movie _Clueless_ revitalized the
usage a decade later -- minus "McFly" of course.)

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun  4 23:01:12 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:01:12 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:06:15 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>Here's a good ex. from Usenet ( "Sentences without past tense," sci.lang,
>June 17, 1996) :
>
>">-- first of all we cannot force changes like that upon a language, and
>>second of all the effect those changes would have are impossible to
>>predict.
>
>Hel-lo-o??  Changes in language take place all the time.  Since WE are
>the only ones using language, why shouldn't WE try to effect change?"

And here's an example slightly predating _Back to the Future_:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/net.auto/msg/b74597afbce21bc5

Newsgroup: net.auto
Date: Wed, 5-Sep-84 07:42:04 EDT
Subject: Re: 55 mph kills

Eh?  HellooOOoo!  Anybody home?

Hmm, Time Wasted Driving Slow == Time Being Dead  (?)
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 23:37:15 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:37:15 -0400
Subject: Cartoonist (1869?)
Message-ID: 

What's a good date for "cartoonist"? 1860s? Does it come from London or New York?
...
...
...
(OED)
cartoonist
An artist who draws cartoons.

1880 Daily News 28 Dec. 3/1. 1883 Glasgow Her. 12 July, The cartoonist of the comic papers.
...
...
...
NOTES ON BOOKS AND BOOKSELLERS.
American Literary Gazette and Publishers' Circular (1863-1872). Philadelphia: Jun 1, 1869. Vol. 13, Iss. 3; p. 53 (5 pages)
(Somewhere here on APS online--ed.)
...
...
July 1871, Scribner's Monthly, pg. 328:
ART has lost Moritz von Schwind, a celebrated painter of Vienna, well known for his genial cartoons in the Wartburg, the famous mountain retreat of Luther. His death has called forth a sweet lamentation from his great brother-cartoonist, the inimitable Kaulbach, who, on hearing of this decease, declared that the world could not repair his loss as a magic delineator of the charms of the forest.
...
...
13 April 1872, Boston Daily Globe, pg. 2:
Even the rival cartoonist, the English artist Matt Morgan, cannot refrain from giving the expressive face of the German-American a little touch os some one of the quaint "make ups," which Morgan from his experience at Drury Lane as a scene painter, must have aided in devising for Christmas Pantomimes.
(The article is about Thomas Nast - ed.)
...
...
(TIMES OF LONDON)
...
FOR BOMBAY,(last shipping day July 27,)the fine (Classified Advertising)
      The Times Tuesday, Jul 16, 1844; pg. 1; Issue 18663; col A
...
Pall-mall.-Important Collection of beautiful Modern Pictures and (Property)
      The Times Monday, Mar 17, 1862; pg. 16; Issue 24195; col A
...
Germany. (News) (FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT.).
      The Times Wednesday, May 07, 1879; pg. 5; Issue 29561; col B
...
...
(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title:Frederick Douglass letter to George W. Curtis,
1872 September 20.
Author(s):Douglass, Frederick, 1818-1895. ; Curtis, George William,; 1824-1892, ; recipient.
Year:1872
Description:2 p.
In:Allison-Shelley manuscript collection; Black history and literature collection
Language:English
Abstract:Douglass writes to George W. Curtis, editor of Harper's weekly, praising the political cartoons of Thomas Nast, suggests a German edition of Harper's to counteract Frank Leslie's illustrated newspaper, and recommends circulating the newspaper in the South to offset the "hostile though spiritless works of [cartoonist] Matt Morgan" in Leslie's newspaper.

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun  5 02:52:17 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:52:17 -0400
Subject: "He's got a Piece of Bread and Cheese in his Head" = "He's
 drunk"?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050604115317.021f0050@ipostoffice.worldnet.att .net>
Message-ID: 

>What might be the origin of "He's got a Piece of Bread and Cheese in his
>Head", meaning "he's drunk"?

First one might like to establish that the expression exists or existed at all.

I do see on the Web a quotation from a Pittsburgh newspaper from 1910
stating that this expression was used by "Italians", but in isolation this
assertion could easily be erroneous, deliberately false, or only marginally
true (e.g., the expression could be a casual translation [accurate or not]
of something in Italian which was seldom or never really used in English).

Is there an example of the above expression actually used to mean "he's
drunk" in any printed work?

-- Doug Wilson

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun  5 03:05:24 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:05:24 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42ut2e$27m4oq@mx21.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

This was indeed the chorus. However, I know of no reason to believe
that Aretha's "Respect" is either the origin or even the popularizer of
the contemporary meaning of the phrase. It was used as a catch phrase
on the TV show, "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In." This is a far more likely
source for the general public than the song. "Respect," given that
Aretha had not yet crossed the color line at that time. From the BBC
Comedy Guide: "The series [1967-1973]  was stuffed full of recurring
characters, skits and, in particular, _catch phrases_, all of which
were soon ringing around the school-halls and workplaces of America.
These included _'Sock it to me'_ (usually said by the
American-domiciled British actress Judy Carne, who duly became known as
the 'sock it to me girl')..." Before that, it was a common -
undocumented, needless to say - slang term amongst the colored.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 4, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro 
> Subject:      "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> According to the Cassell Dictionary of Catchphrases,
>
> "The actual phrase was taken from a hit record entitled 'Respect'
> (1967)
> recorded by Aretha Franklin, which featured a chorus repeating 'Sock
> it to
> me' quite rapidly in the background."
>
> Can anyone confirm that this was the chorus?  Also, does anyone know of
> any pre-1967 usage of "sock it to me" (I am aware of 19th-century
> usage of
> the phrase "sock it to him")?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>

From Berson at ATT.NET  Sun Jun  5 03:08:19 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:08:19 -0400
Subject: "He's got a Piece of Bread and Cheese in his Head" = "He's
 drunk"?
Message-ID: 

Yes, it does appear in print, in a context clearly indicating its
meaning.  I would like to keep the source private, since I am writing a paper.

The response I got from the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh:

>Unfortunately, this was just a descri[p]tive quote used on the webpage and
>there is really no background information available about it.  I think if
>you read the sentence before the "bread and cheese" line, it is to the
>Italian phrase which refers to a drunken man.  One can only surmise that
>because the combination of bread and cheese was very dense and thick, so
>would be the condition of a drunkard's head.
>
>The Italians do not say of a drunken man that he has a "souse" or a
>"skate" unless the Americanizing process is nearly complete. Instead they
>say, "He has a piece of bread and cheese in his head;" "He is as drunk as
>a wheel-barrow," or "The malt has got above the water."
>
>  As the article was written in 1910, we just do not have any more
> explanation about it that [than] what we could determine ourselves.
>
>Cindy Ulrich
>Pennsylvania Department
>Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

Joel

At 6/4/2005 10:52 PM, you wrote:
>First one might like to establish that the expression exists or existed at
>all.
>
>I do see on the Web a quotation from a Pittsburgh newspaper from 1910
>stating that this expression was used by "Italians", but in isolation this
>assertion could easily be erroneous, deliberately false, or only marginally
>true (e.g., the expression could be a casual translation [accurate or not]
>of something in Italian which was seldom or never really used in English).
>
>Is there an example of the above expression actually used to mean "he's
>drunk" in any printed work?
>
>-- Doug Wilson

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  5 03:17:18 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:17:18 -0400
Subject: Current Usage of "Hello"
In-Reply-To: <14745.69.142.143.59.1117926072.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 7:01 PM -0400 6/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>And here's an example slightly predating _Back to the Future_:
>
>-----
>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/net.auto/msg/b74597afbce21bc5
>
>Newsgroup: net.auto
>Date: Wed, 5-Sep-84 07:42:04 EDT
>Subject: Re: 55 mph kills
>
>saves has been omitted for clarity>
>
>Eh?  HellooOOoo!  Anybody home?
>
>Hmm, Time Wasted Driving Slow == Time Being Dead  (?)

I don't know.  I suspect this character just traveled back to 1984 in
his DeLorean.  (Note that he's obviously overcompensating because of
feeling remorse about going over 88 m.p.h., at which point the flux
capacitor must have kicked in.)

L

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun  5 03:19:35 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:19:35 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:05:24 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>This was indeed the chorus. However, I know of no reason to believe
>that Aretha's "Respect" is either the origin or even the popularizer of
>the contemporary meaning of the phrase. It was used as a catch phrase
>on the TV show, "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In." This is a far more likely
>source for the general public than the song. "Respect," given that
>Aretha had not yet crossed the color line at that time.

Could you clarify what you mean by that?  "Respect" hit #1 on the pop
charts in June '67, and that year she had a few other Top Ten hits ("Baby
I Love You," "I Never Loved A Man (The Way I Love You)," "(You Make Me
Feel Like) A Natural Woman").  So how exactly had she "not yet crossed the
color line"?

>>From the BBC
>Comedy Guide: "The series [1967-1973]  was stuffed full of recurring
>characters, skits and, in particular, _catch phrases_, all of which
>were soon ringing around the school-halls and workplaces of America.
>These included _'Sock it to me'_ (usually said by the
>American-domiciled British actress Judy Carne, who duly became known as
>the 'sock it to me girl')..." Before that, it was a common -
>undocumented, needless to say - slang term amongst the colored.

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun  5 03:21:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:21:38 -0400
Subject: Off topic: NPR & Public Broadcasting
Message-ID: 

On NPR's Morning Edition, Nina Tottenberg  announced
that if the Supreme Court supports Congress, it will,
in effect, be the end of the National Public Radio
(NPR), National Endowment for the  Arts (NEA), and the
Public Broadcasting System (PBS). PBS, NPR, and  the
arts are facing major cutbacks in funding. In spite of
the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs
and streamline their services, some government
officials believe that the funding currently going to
these programs is too large a portion of funding for
something which is seen as not worthwhile. This is for
anyone who thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure
of $1.12/year of their taxes. The only way that  our
representatives can be aware of the base of support
for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by
making our voices heard. Please add your name to this
list and forward it to friends who believe in what
this stands for. This list will be forwarded to the
President and the Vice  President of the United  States.
This petition is being passed around  the Internet.
Please add your name to it so that funding can be
maintained  for NPR, PBS, and the NEA.

HOW TO SIGN:
IT'S EASY: First SELECT all of the text in this
message, then COPY and PASTE it into a new email (DO
NOT  FORWARD). ADD your name to the bottom of the list
and SEND it to everyone in  your list.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT DUPLICATES. This is being sent to
several  people at once to add their names to the
petition. It won't matter if many  people receive the
same list as THE NAMES ARE BEING MANAGED.

If you decide not to sign, please don't kill it. Send
it to the email address listed  here:
wein2688 at blue.univnorthco.edu
If you happen to be the 150th, 200th,  250th, etc.,
signer of this petition, please forward a copy to the
above  address.
This way we can keep track of the lists and organize
them.
Send this to everyone you know, and help us to  keep
these programs alive.

Thank you!
Judith Ruderman
Vice Provost for Academic and Administrative Services
220 Allen, Box 90005, Duke University
(919) 684-3296 (phone) (919)  684-4421 (fax)

1401 Ian Brister, NewYork, NY  10011
1402 John  Cardoni NYC, NY 10009
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1404 Donna Jackson Westport, CT 06880
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1407 Julie Houck, Telluride, CO 81435
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CA 94062
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OR  97405
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Danville, CA 94506
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94550
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1533 Susan Dresner, New York, NY 10024
1534 Betty Hayter, New York, NY 10023
1535 Robert J. Leeder,  Towaco, NJ 07082

1636 Stephani S. Herold, Kinnelon, NJ  07405
1637 Frank Herold, Kinnelon, NJ  07405
1638  Zoe Stevens Kinnelon NJ  07405
1639 Dana Beugless-Spies Kinnelon, NJ  07405
1640 Lisa  Winter, Basking Ridge, NJ  07920
1641 George Cody, Princeton, NJ 08540
1642 James A. Amick, Princeton, NJ 08540
1643 David E. Breithaupt, Princeton, NJ 08540
1644 Garrett Gray, New Providence, NJ 07974
1645 Wilson Gray, Boston, MA 02115

From panis at PACBELL.NET  Sun Jun  5 03:29:56 2005
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:29:56 -0700
Subject: Off topic: NPR & Public Broadcasting
In-Reply-To: <200506050321.j553LfRg028860@ylpvm06.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: 

Wilson Gray wrote:

> On NPR's Morning Edition, Nina Tottenberg  announced
> that if the Supreme Court supports Congress, it will,
> in effect, be the end of the National Public Radio
> (NPR), National Endowment for the  Arts (NEA), and the
> Public Broadcasting System (PBS)...

A record of a good intention gone awry, still alive 10 years later. See:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa052798.htm

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/savepbs.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/arts/nea.asp

John

--

*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis~at~pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  5 03:51:32 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:51:32 -0400
Subject: Off topic: NPR & Public Broadcasting
In-Reply-To: <42a271b9.16aa4b2a.6886.ffff8bacSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Thanks fot straightening me out, John.

-Wilson

On 6/4/05, John McChesney-Young  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       John McChesney-Young 
> Subject:      Re: Off topic: NPR & Public Broadcasting
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  5 03:52:16 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:52:16 -0400
Subject: "Plan your work, work your plan" (1900)
Message-ID: 

PLAN YOUR WORK + WORK YOUR PLAN--12,400 Google hits, 167 Google Groups hits
...
5 June 2005, New York Daily News, Michael Daly column, pg. 20, col. 3:
The secret seemed to be the same principle that generated Bloomberg's enormous wealth: Playn your work, work your plan and stick with it.
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
Quotes on plans, making plans, planning?
... George S. Patton Even a poor plan is better than no plan at all. Mikhail Chigorin
Plan your work for today and every day, then work your plan. ...
alt.quotations - Sep 5 2000, 8:51 am by Steve - 5 messages - 5 authors
...
Plan your work for today and every day, then work your plan.
Norman Vincent Peale
...
...
Planning Your Story/Game
... So, what's the consensus? Plan your work and work your plan? Plan it but then
wing it? Or just wail away at the keyboard and see what happens? ...
rec.arts.int-fiction - Jun 5 1994, 12:30 pm by Bob Newell - 4 messages - 4 authors
...
...
(FACTIVA)
National Desk; 1
PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE IN RACE FOR LAWYERS' TOP POST
By DAVID MARGOLICK, Special to the New York Times
1,103 words
31 January 1982
The New York Times
You have to plan your work and then work your plan,'' said B.B. Gullett of Nashville, who is regarded as the preeminent tactician of the association's presidential politics.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
SOME SERMONS HHEARD IN THE PULPITS YESTERDAY; FIRST METHODIST. MERRITTS AVE. CHURCH. AT THE FIRST BAPTIST. AT TRINITY CHURCH.
The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Nov 5, 1900. p. 10 (1 page) :
"'Plan your work,'" declared the minster, "and then 'work your plan.'"
(Rev. Dr. Landrum--ed.)
...
How to Fight Cost of Living; Divorces and the High Cost of Living.
MARY ELEANOR O'DONNELL. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 15, 1912. p. 14 (1 page):
"Plan your work and work your plan."
...
...
(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
THE GIRLS' CLUB; With One Idea: To Make Money
The Ladies' Home Journal (1889-1907). Philadelphia: Oct 1904. Vol. Vol. XXI,, Iss. No. 11; p. 42 (1 page) :
A learned professor whom I know is wont to advise his students to "First plan your work, then work your plan," and I fancy that is one of the secrets of his success. It's a good rule. Try it.

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  5 04:33:07 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 00:33:07 -0400
Subject: "Be careful what you wish for" (1976)
Message-ID: 

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR--166,000 Google hits, 44,500 Google Groups hits
...
...
How can there be so many hits, and this only goes back to 1976??
...
It's a headline in Sunday's New York Post.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
DC to LA, Her Way
Susan Gailey. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Dec 10, 1978. p. SM5 (1 page)
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
 The Chronicle TelegramMonday, May 03, 1976 Elyria, Ohio
...HOLLYWOOD (UPI) "Be CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR." said Jill St John, "YOU're.....imag- ine that would improve it "BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH said Jill St. John..

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jun  5 05:00:33 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 07:00:33 +0200
Subject: "Be careful what you wish for" (1976)
In-Reply-To: <20050605043312.57F072A8@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

> Poster:       bapopik at AOL.COM
> BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR--166,000 Google hits, 44,500 Google Groups
> hits
> ...
> ...
> How can there be so many hits, and this only goes back to 1976??

"Be careful what you wish for in your youth," says an aphorism of Goethe's
by which I have long been haunted, "for you will get it in your middle-age."
        Leslie A. Fiedler, No! in Thunder: Essays on Myth and Literature,
Beacon Press, 1960, p. 169.

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun  5 05:01:16 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:01:16 -0400
Subject: "Be careful what you wish for" (1976)
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 00:33:07 -0400, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR--166,000 Google hits, 44,500 Google Groups
>hits
>...
>...
>How can there be so many hits, and this only goes back to 1976??

-----
Los Angeles Times, May 21, 1954, p. B5
"Nowadays," Mary told me once, not joking at all, "I'm careful what I wish
for because it has a way of coming along, and sometimes it isn't worth the
price."
-----
Washington Post, Nov 19, 1954, p. 75
Miss Gish also advises "be careful what you wish for, you'll probably get
it."
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun  5 05:03:56 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:03:56 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42a26f4b.647a032f.0830.ffffc289SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Of course. It will be my honor.

 In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.

The unknown black singer was Aretha, if you can believe that. Given
that her career went back to at least 1964 and probably farther, I was
stunned to discover that, clearly, no one at ABC/CBS/NBC had ever
heard of her.

Part of the show was filmed at the Motown recording studios, In one
scene, the recording of "My Girl" by The Temptations was shown. If
you're familiar with the song, then you are also familiar with the
opening guitar riff, often referred to as "the seven best-known notes
in pop music." Now, the Motown house band was integrated. So, it could
be clearly seen that the man playing first guitar and, therefore, the
person playing that magic riff was a white man.

A couple of days later, the Los Angeles Times printed a letter to the
editor from a white woman who had seen this program. The woman stated
that there was such a dearth of talent amongst the colored that they
even had to hire white people to play their own music for them. The
letter-writer had nothing to say about either of the "unknown"
singers. No other mention of the program or of Aretha appeared among
the letters to the editor or anywhere else in the paper

Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the average person on
the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave a
Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line by
1967. Q.E.D.

Another time, the popular-music critic of the other L.A. paper wrote
an article in which he claimed that the late Laura Nyro was a better
singer than any black female singers from Ma Rainey to The Supremes.

On a third occasion, a black male singer was quoted as saying that, if
Tom Jones could make a million dollars a year singing like a black
man, then a black man ought to be able to make $50,000 a year singing
like himself. Unfortunately, the man was living in a dream.

During that same time, the federal Government and the state of
California destroyed the part of Los Angeles that had been known as
the "Black Beverly Hills" by running the Harbor Freeway-Santa Monica
Freeway interchange through it.

Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
practice?

-Wilson

P.S. Ben, please don't tell me that you also believe that there's such
a thing as "reverse discrimination," too?

On 6/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:05:24 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:
>
> >This was indeed the chorus. However, I know of no reason to believe
> >that Aretha's "Respect" is either the origin or even the popularizer of
> >the contemporary meaning of the phrase. It was used as a catch phrase
> >on the TV show, "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In." This is a far more likely
> >source for the general public than the song. "Respect," given that
> >Aretha had not yet crossed the color line at that time.
>
> Could you clarify what you mean by that?  "Respect" hit #1 on the pop
> charts in June '67, and that year she had a few other Top Ten hits ("Baby
> I Love You," "I Never Loved A Man (The Way I Love You)," "(You Make Me
> Feel Like) A Natural Woman").  So how exactly had she "not yet crossed the
> color line"?
>
> >From the BBC
> >Comedy Guide: "The series [1967-1973]  was stuffed full of recurring
> >characters, skits and, in particular, _catch phrases_, all of which
> >were soon ringing around the school-halls and workplaces of America.
> >These included _'Sock it to me'_ (usually said by the
> >American-domiciled British actress Judy Carne, who duly became known as
> >the 'sock it to me girl')..." Before that, it was a common -
> >undocumented, needless to say - slang term amongst the colored.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  5 05:13:38 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:13:38 -0400
Subject: "Nixonomics," or,
 Safire fails to mention an ADS member's work yet again
Message-ID: 

William Safire's Sunday "On Language" column mentions "Nixonomics" and others like that. However, Ben Zimmer discussed that on May 13th. And he discussed it better.
...
What goes through Safire's mind? Oh, here's an ADS member! He gives out his work to other scholars for free! Well, SCREW HIM! NO CREDIT FOR YOU!
...
Amazing. Join the club, Ben. He'll recognize you in ten years, if he's still alive. This is a disgrace.
...
...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/magazine/05ONLANGUAGE.html
NOMICSNOMICS
I had a hand, as a White House speechwriter back in 1969, in popularizing the word Nixonomics. It seemed like a nice encapsulation of a philosophy of a ''full-employment budget'' but soon became a handy phrase that liberals could use to castigate stagflation and conservatives to hoot at wage and price controls.
Now the last two syllables of economics are making a comeback. Nomics is in, with or without the initial n. We have genomics, mapping the DNA sequencing of sets of genes, and the more recent proteomics, analyzing the interaction of the proteins produced by the genes of a particular cell. Ergonomics is the science of designing modern equipment to reduce discomfort as we plonk our way painfully through the carpel tunnel of love. Leaping on the -nomics bandwagon, with the vowel o inserted, is rockonomics, the monetary machinations of the huge and lucrative music industry. (For that matter, see Freakonomics.)
Here's my advice to White House aides of all stripes: If your president's name ends with an n, brace yourself for an -omics branding. Thus did we have Nixonomics, Reaganomics and Clintonomics. We did not have Fordonomics or Carternomics or Bushonomics, nor would we have had Dukakisonomics or Gorenomics or Kerrynomics. It has nothing to do with politics; it's the elision quality of the last letter of the president's last name.
...
...
...
(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 13 May 2005)
There's a Slate article today about "rockonomics":

-----
http://slate.msn.com/id/2118607/
Among the crowd rushing the stage is Alan Krueger, the Princeton labor
economist who is an expert on the minimum wage and many other things. In a
paper written with Marie Connolly, which managed to cite both singer Paul
Simon and Nobel Prize-winning economist Gary Becker, Krueger set out to
answer some fundamental questions of what he and Connolly call
"rockonomics." (This is not to be confused with Freakonomics, the book
co-written by University of Chicago economists Steven D. Levitt and
Stephen J. Dubner.)
-----

The "-(o)nomics" suffix is nothing new, of course (William Safire claims
to have coined "Nixonomics" in 1969).  As has been noted, the suffix can
appear in one of three forms depending on the final syllable of the root:

Case 1: a root ending in (or consisting of) a stressed syllable takes
_-onomics_ (Fordonomics, Bushonomics, freakonomics, rockonomics)

Case 2: a root ending in an unstressed syllable (other than Case 3 below)
takes _-nomics_ (Carternomics, Thatchernomics, Kerrynomics, cybernomics)

Case 3: a root ending in unstressed or secondarily stressed /-Vn/ takes
_-omics_ (Nixonomics, Reaganomics, Clintonomics, Putinomics, Enronomics)

Interestingly, the Slate article also uses "rockonomy":

-----
In some ways, the rockonomy resembles the increasingly winner-take-all
American economy. The rich are getting richer, and it's good to be the
king or queen of pop. In 1982, the top 1 percent of artists banked 26
percent of ticket revenues; in 2003, they garnered 56 percent.
-----

I haven't noticed the "-(o)nomy" suffix before.  Here are some other
examples off the Web:

-----
http://www.mdcbowen.org/cobb/archives/003625.html
[a critique of Levitt and Dubner's _Freakonomics_ by Michael Bowen]
A 'freakonomy' might be described as a highly indexed and tabulated view
of something of curiosity to the average American, but probably an
unlikely subject in the staid academy.
-----
http://dean4az.blogspot.com/2003/10/bush-bucks.html
I recommend you take a peek at Bush's donor list and remember who is
making Bush's re-appointment bid possible the next time you are going to
spend any money in our Bushonomy.
-----
http://new.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=nloucks&tab=weblogs&uid=65594600
Clinton thought he had the solution but we all know that failed.  How does
John Kerry want to resolve that?  Clintonomy?  I sure hope not.
-----
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2001mar/gee20010330005119.htm
Can the FCC save the techonomy?
-----
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/12/14_enronomy.html
George W. Bush believes he can coin new words for the English language, so
I thought I'd give my first shot at this practice with enronomy. Look at
the beauty in the word. Enron is a perfect analogy for the current
economic conditions in this nation.
-----

There are some morphological and prosodic constraints to this suffixation,
since the "on" syllable must receives stress.  It works best with Case 1
above, especially if the root ends in /-k/ (rockonomy, freakonomy,
techonomy, Bushonomy).  It also works, though not quite as well, with Case
3, but only when the root ends in unstressed or secondarily stressed "-on"
(Nixonomy, Clintonomy, Enronomy).  (This requires changing the stress and
also possibly the vowel quality of the root's final syllable, but there's
already the model of "Nixonian", "Clintonian", etc.)  It doesn't seem to
work for other Case 3 roots (*Reaganomy, *Putinomy) or any Case 2 roots
(*Carternomy, *Kerrynomy, *cybernomy).

Am I missing any other possibilities?

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  5 05:52:35 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:52:35 -0400
Subject: "Be careful what you set your heart upon"
Message-ID: 

Queries and Answers
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 28, 1932. p. BR31 (1 page) :
_"What You Set Your Heart Upon"_
D. F.--Wanted, the location of these lines: "Beware what you set your heart upon, for it will surely be thine."
...
...
Queries and Answers; Queries and Answers
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 20, 1932. p. BR28 (2 pages) :
_"What You Set Your Heart Upon"_
LOUELLA D. EVERETT, Boston, Mass.--Answering D. F.'s query of Feb. 28, the lines, "Be careful what you set your heart upon, for some day it will be yours," are credited to Ralph Waldo Emerson, but I am unable
(Continued on Page 31)
to find them in the books of his I have.

In his poem, "Longing," James Russell Lowell writes:
The thing we long for, that we are
For one transcendent moment.
...
...
Queries and Answers; Queries and Answers
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 18, 1932. p. BR29 (2 pages)
_"What You Set Your Heart Upon"_
M. BECKHARD, New York City--The quotation from Emerson wanted by S. E. B. (Aug. 28) is probably the following from his essay on "Fate":

...the moral is that what we seek we shall find; ... as Goethe said: "What we wish for in youth come in heaps on us in old age, too often cursed with the granting of our prayer; and hence the high caution that since we are sure of having what we wish we beware to ask only of high things."
...
...
Quotation's Source
JOSEPH VAN SUCH JR. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 14, 1966. p. A4 (1 page) :
Since 1938, I've been trying to find the source and author of the following:

"Beware of what you set your heart upon, For it shall surely be thine."

Thanks to the person who can give me the information I seek.

JOSEPH VAN SUCH, JR.
5136 Marathon St., Apt. 105,
Hollywood.
...
...
Q:
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 8, 1970. p. BR20 (1 page)
J.R.C. is trying to locate the source of the following quotation: "Beware what you set your heart upon for it shall surely be yours."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun  5 06:33:29 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:33:29 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:03:56 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

> In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
>to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
>black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
>nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
>not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.
>
>The unknown black singer was Aretha, if you can believe that. Given
>that her career went back to at least 1964 and probably farther, I was
>stunned to discover that, clearly, no one at ABC/CBS/NBC had ever
>heard of her.
>
[snip]
>
>Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
>things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>practice?

Thank you for your enlightening recollections.  I wasn't actually alive in
the Sixties, so I no doubt take certain things for granted about that era
that only developed with subsequent hindsight-- for instance, the
recognition of Aretha Franklin (by both blacks and whites) as probably the
finest singer of American popular music in the last 40 years.  Whenever
Boomer outfits like Rolling Stone or VH1 do their "Greatest Songs Ever"
lists, "Respect" routinely places in the top five.  So in retrospect, it
is indeed hard to imagine that Aretha wasn't adequately recognized at her
peak.

I can't quite believe that Aretha could have been considered an "unknown"
performer in 1968, even by relatively clueless network execs.  As I
mentioned, "Respect" had hit #1 on the Billboard charts for a few weeks in
the summer of '67 and she had numerous other pop hits.  Her albums sold
quite well too-- _Aretha Arrives_ (1967), _I Never Loved A Man The Way I
Love You_ (1967), _Aretha Now_ (1968), and _Lady Soul_ (1968) peaked at
#5, #2, #3, and #2, respectively, on the Billboard pop charts.  By 1968,
she was one of the top-selling individual recording artists, black or
white.  Is it possible that you're misremembering the year?  The
Temptations released "My Girl" in 1965-- Aretha would have been an
"unknown" to white audiences then.

I'm well aware (from reading, at least) about the difficulties black
performers faced in those days-- how even Otis Redding, one of the
all-time greats (and of course the originator of "Respect"), wasn't really
appreciated by white audiences until after his untimely death.  My
question was simply how Aretha's version of "Respect" could have been
considered behind "the color line" when it hit #1 on the *pop* charts.

This is a separate question, however, from what sort of appreciation white
audiences had regarding the song's lyrical content.  Aretha also sings
"Take care, T.C.B." and "Give me my propers" in that song, but those lines
were no doubt opaque to most white listeners.  So the "Sock it to me" line
might have been similarly ignored until the "Laugh-In" crowd brought it to
greater prominence.

--Ben Zimmer

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun  5 07:03:49 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 03:03:49 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"

> Of course. It will be my honor.
>
> In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
> to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
> black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
> nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
> not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.

Her name was Gloria Loring.  The show, titled "The Singers," was aired on
ABC on May 11, 1968.   But your characterization of the show as "devoted to
the careers of two unknown female song stylists" is incorrect.   Every major
newspaper I can read on Proquest make it clear that Aretha was big
time("Respect" had won her a Grammy earlier that year) and Loring was a
newbie.

> The unknown black singer was Aretha, if you can believe that. Given
> that her career went back to at least 1964 and probably farther, I was
> stunned to discover that, clearly, no one at ABC/CBS/NBC had ever
> heard of her.

Her career went back to at least 1961, when she was recording for Coumbia.
Trouble was, Columbia tried to make her a pop/jazz performer.  It didn't
work. When she switched to the Atlantic label, and they promoted her r&b
talents, the became very popular.

> Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the average person on
> the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave a
> Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line by
> 1967. Q.E.D.

Are you saying that all of her records were sold only to blacks?  On March
19th of 1967, "I Never Loved A Man" topped out at #9 on Billboard's Top 40.
On May 6th of that year(a year before that poor "unknown" was in that tv
show), "Respect" topped out at #1.   No doubt at least one or two "white"
stations were playing her songs.

> Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
> living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
> things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
> lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
> practice?
>-Wilson

Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call lynching
of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."

I notice that Ben has replied better than I can.

Sam Clements

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun  5 07:38:38 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 03:38:38 -0400
Subject: "Nixonomics," or,
 Safire fails to mention an ADS member's work yet again
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:13:38 -0400, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>William Safire's Sunday "On Language" column mentions "Nixonomics" and
>others like that. However, Ben Zimmer discussed that on May 13th. And he
>discussed it better.

Thanks, Barry.

>What goes through Safire's mind? Oh, here's an ADS member! He gives out
>his work to other scholars for free! Well, SCREW HIM! NO CREDIT FOR YOU!
>...
>Amazing. Join the club, Ben. He'll recognize you in ten years, if he's
>still alive. This is a disgrace.

Eh, whaddayagonnado. I was credited in a Safire column last year about
"stay the course," but he misconstrued some of my points, so perhaps it's
better to remain uncredited. And if Safire or his assistant had actually
read my post in its entirety, then the column wouldn't have included some
errors, e.g.:

>Here's my advice to White House aides of all stripes: If your
>president's name ends with an n, brace yourself for an -omics branding.
>Thus did we have Nixonomics, Reaganomics and Clintonomics.

It's not enough for the name to end in an 'n' for the -omics suffix to be
attached. If McCain is elected, would we have McCainomics?  Nope, because
the final syllable is stressed. It would have to be McCainonomics, which
isn't quite as mellifluous.

>We did not have Fordonomics or Carternomics or Bushonomics, nor would we
>have had Dukakisonomics or Gorenomics or Kerrynomics.

Ah, but we did have Fordo-/Carter-/Busho-nomics. Citations abound. The
terms just didn't catch on as much as Nixon-/Reagan-/Clinton-omics (chalk
it up to euphony).

>It has nothing to do with politics; it's the elision quality of the last
>letter of the president's last name.

The "elision quality"? Hmmmm. I think that sentence has a certain "elision
quality"-- if you restore the elisions, it might actually make sense.

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  5 07:45:28 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 03:45:28 -0400
Subject: Perfect Manhattan (1967?); "Survive first,
 then do the long-term planning"
Message-ID: 

PERFECT MANHATTAN
...
PERFECT MANHATTAN + VERMOUTH--1,060 Google hits, 22 Google  Groups hits
...
What does the next OED revision have for "perfect Manhattan"? Anything??
...
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/969/perfect-manhattan-cocktail
...
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"SURVIVE FIRST, THE DO THE LONG-TERM PLANNING"
...
The Generation Terrorist site has some nice quote lists, especially the one on computer quotes.
...
...
Generation Terrorists - Computer Quotes
... Survive first, then do the long-term planning. Important letters that contain
no errors will develop errors on the way to the printer ...
www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/computers.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages
...
...
Someone is cancelling the posts in this group.
... indistinguishable from magic. " "Survive first, then do the long-term planning "
"All probabilities are 50 percent. Either a thing ...
alt.games.lucas-arts.monkey-island - May 17 2000, 3:11 am by Doc Bean - 1 message - 1 author

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun  5 07:53:43 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 03:53:43 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 03:03:49 -0400, Sam Clements  wrote:

>> In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
>> to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
>> black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
>> nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
>> not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.
>
>Her name was Gloria Loring.  The show, titled "The Singers," was aired on
>ABC on May 11, 1968.   But your characterization of the show as "devoted
>to the careers of two unknown female song stylists" is incorrect.  Every
>major newspaper I can read on Proquest make it clear that Aretha was big
>time("Respect" had won her a Grammy earlier that year) and Loring was a
>newbie.

Thanks for pinning that down, Sam.  Never heard of Gloria Loring-- looks
like her major claim to fame was writing the theme songs for the '80s TV
shows "Diff'rent Strokes" and "The Facts of Life" (she also appeared on
the soap "Days of Our Lives").  So, basically, not quite worthy of holding
Aretha's coat.

--Ben Zimmer

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  5 11:21:19 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 07:21:19 EDT
Subject: Bouncer (1865)
Message-ID: 

Anyone have a better "bouncer"? Newspaperarchive is not working right now,  
for me at least.
...
...
(OED)
bouncer
   5. One  engaged to eject undesirable or unruly persons from a saloon, 
ballroom, etc.; a  ?chucker-out?. colloq. (orig.  U.S.). 

1865 Nat.  Police Gaz. (U.S.) 29 Apr. 4/2 Old Moyamensing is  almost as 
famous for its lawless gangs of boys and young men, as it was in the  days of the ?
killers? and ?bouncers?. 1883 Daily  News 26 July 4/8 The Bouncer..is merely 
the  English ?chucker out?. When liberty verges on licence and gaiety on 
wanton  delirium, the Bouncer selects the gayest of the gay, Thebounces him. 1888 
_A. C.  GUNTER_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-g2.html#a-c-gunter)  
Mr. Potter xx, Several  of the fighting brigade of the establishment, that in 
American slang would be  termed ?bouncers?. 1903 _A.  ADAMS_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-a.html#a-adams)  Log Cowboy xiii. 204 The  bouncer of 
the dance hall of course had his eye on our crowd. 1938 _WODEHOUSE_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w3.html#wodehouse)  Summer Moonshine i. 19  He 
held down a job for a time as bouncer at some bar. 1961 Evening  Standard 21 
Aug. 12/6 Bouncers required for dance  Sat. evenings.

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun  5 13:57:34 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:57:34 -0400
Subject: "Plan your work, work your plan" (1900)
Message-ID: 

>>From Bapopik's post:
Planning Your Story/Game
... So, what's the consensus? Plan your work and work your plan? Plan it
but then
wing it? Or just wail away at the keyboard and see what happens? ...
rec.arts.int-fiction - Jun 5 1994, 12:30 pm by Bob Newell - 4 messages - 4
authors
...
"wail away"....?
AM

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun  5 15:58:34 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:58:34 -0700
Subject: "Plan your work, work your plan" (1900)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 5, 2005, at 6:57 AM, Alison Murie wrote:

>> From Bapopik's post:
>>
> Planning Your Story/Game
> ... So, what's the consensus? Plan your work and work your plan?
> Plan it
> but then
> wing it? Or just wail away at the keyboard and see what happens? ...
> rec.arts.int-fiction - Jun 5 1994, 12:30 pm by Bob Newell - 4
> messages - 4
> authors
> ...
> "wail away"....?

lovely.  now added to the eggcorn database, as "whale" >> "wail",
especially in "wait away at".

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun  5 16:03:11 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:03:11 -0700
Subject: "Plan your work, work your plan" (1900)
In-Reply-To: <81808A8A-ACCD-41EE-BFCA-F2834E8FA9D0@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 5, 2005, at 8:58 AM, i wrote:

>> "wail away"....?
>
> lovely.  now added to the eggcorn database, as "whale" >> "wail",
> especially in "wait away at".

ok, "wail away at".

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun  5 16:58:54 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:58:54 -0400
Subject: Antedating of" fuzz" =policeman(1924)
Message-ID: 

M-W has 1927.  OED has 1929.  HDAS has 1929.

Using Proquest, _Los Angeles Times_  30 Jan. 1924.  pg. A3

(An article about pickpockets in LA)

>>>"A 'mob' can 'beat a pap' to the 'leather' and get away with it with the ordinary 'fuzz' lookin' on.  But it's a twenty-to-one shot when the 'cannon copper's are wise."<<<

(ed--the 'cannon coppers' was criminal jargon for a special unit in the LAPD to target pickpockets).

There is also a cite in the July, 1924 NY Times as uttered by a criminal in Chicago.

This, of course, doesn't get us any closer to finding the origin.  I'm sure it's probably Wolof or Irish.  :)

Sam Clements

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun  5 17:26:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:26:36 -0700
Subject: Antedating of" fuzz" =policeman(1924)
In-Reply-To: <000601c569ef$dba96860$3b631941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 5, 2005, at 9:58 AM, Sam Clements wrote:

> ...This, of course, doesn't get us any closer to finding the
> origin.  I'm sure it's probably Wolof or Irish.  :)

are we absolutely sure that there were no 17th or 18th century wolof
settlements in ireland?  or irish settlements in west africa?

arnold

From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Sun Jun  5 18:23:50 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Elaine Shuttlesworth)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:23:50 -0500
Subject: "Apple Computer of"
Message-ID: 

Here are some other uses of "The Apple Computer of X" with meanings
ranging to a user-friendly interface to having a small but enthusiastic
following and applying to TiVo, the Greens, and a horse training
program to Saab to Ram Dass!  The earliest example I found comes from
1997 in reference to  Hawaii.

All from Google:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22the+apple+computer+of%22+-century&btnG=Search

TiVo's Apple problem | PVRblog
As the competitors circle the market like vultures, I wonder if TiVo
will resign itself as the Apple Computer of DVRs, where its snooty
users will put ...
www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2003/08/tivos_apple_pro.html - 36k - Jun 4, 2005

The Green Party: Apple Computer of Politics? (8 Ways to Sunday)
Meanwhile, they?re kind of like the Apple Computer of political parties
? full of great new ideas that get co-opted by the mainstream, but with
a minority ...
www.adammessinger.com/2004/03/
02/the-green-party-apple-computer-of-politics

Dwell Magazine - Table of Contents
So is modern prefab on its way to becoming the Apple computer of the
American
housing industry? Home Cooking 101 How did such a simple act become so
complex ...
www.dwellmag.com/magazine/1382257.html

Creating Passionate Users: More on the art of giving instructions...
And talk about passionate users... the place we live has a Parelli user
group with over 1,000 members! (And if you get one started on a
conversation about it, you won't be able to stop them. It really is the
Apple Computer of the horse world.)
headrush.typepad.com/creating_
passionate_users/2004/12/more_on_the_art.html

Is Hawaii going to be the Apple Computer of tourism? - 1997-11-17
American City Business Journals Inc. is the nation's largest publisher
of
metropolitan business newspapers, serving 41 of the country's most
vibrant ...
www.bizjournals.com/pacific/ stories/1997/11/17/editorial1.html

Flexo users hoping for more vendors, competition
... set-off or show-through, a simpler and more environmentally
friendly printing process ? flexo has become the Apple Computer of the
printing industry. ...
www.newsandtech.com/issues/ 2002/11-02/nt/11-02_flexo.htm

Wednesday, March 8, 2000
Maybe CubeSat is the "Apple Computer" of the next space generation
experimenters. For details on OPAL, see the website:
ssdl.stanford.edu/opal.
nova.stanford.edu/seminars/win00/00.03.8.html

seattlepi.com Buzzworthy: TiVo: The new Apple?
Is TiVo the Apple Computer of the 2002 -- that is, the pioneer doomed
to lose its grip on a market it was instrumental in creating?
blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/buzz/archives/003159.html

MercuryNews.com | 11/05/2003 | Despite milestone, TiVo faces ...
It risks becoming the Apple Computer of the DVR market, said Gene
Walton, an analyst with Walton Holdings in New York. ``It will have a
limited reach,'' ...
www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/
business/columnists/gmsv/2741/7189492.htm

content management tool for clients?
fwiw, i hear good things about mambo. sounds like it's the Apple
computer of CMS in terms of implementation/use. No technical skills
required. ...
www.webmasterworld.com/forum46/745.htm

Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       "Bethany K. Dumas" 
>Subject:      cupping/"Apple Computer of"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>Am I  the last person to have heard?
>
>---
>EMERYVILLE, Calif. - Doug Welsh picked up the first of 12 glasses of
>coffee. He noisily slurped a spoonful, savored it briefly, then
>immediately spit it out.
>
>Sales of beans make up 45 percent of the retail revenue at Peet's Coffee
>and Tea, which is based in a brick warehouse in Emeryville, Calif., just
>south of Berkeley. Mike Madden prepares to load beans into a roaster.
>Mr. Welsh, the vice president for coffee at Peet's Coffee and Tea, a
>regional coffee retailer with its home here in the San Francisco Bay
Area,
>was "cupping" - testing samples of beans recently shipped from the
Nairobi
>coffee auction.
>
>Mr. Welsh readily concedes that most customers would never know the
>difference. But buying what Peet's considers an inferior bean, he said,
>"is not a road we want to go down."
>
>In the Bay Area, Peet's has long been the Apple Computer of coffee,
>serving a small but intense group of aficionados who are convinced that
>the company's coffee is superior to that produced by the industry giant
>from Seattle: Starbucks.
>---
>
>See:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/business/04coffee.html?
>
>Bethany
>Peet's aficionado
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  5 19:15:05 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:15:05 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <007001c5699c$b95187f0$3b631941@sam>
Message-ID: 

At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray" 
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
>
>
>>Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>>living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
>>things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>>lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>>practice?
>>-Wilson
>
>Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call lynching
>of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>
And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching (as
opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
voting registrations drives and freedom riding.  I can't recall
hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.

Larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  5 20:49:49 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:49:49 -0400
Subject: "Be careful what you wish for" (1976)
In-Reply-To: <8C7379ECE78DA0B-D38-283E@MBLK-M08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:33 AM -0400 6/5/05, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR--166,000 Google hits, 44,500 Google Groups hits
>...
>...
>How can there be so many hits, and this only goes back to 1976??
>...

And then there's the even ruefuller dictum, which I've encountered as
a bathroom graffito (USC, fall 1972) but I assume has a more
distinguished lineage:

"I wish I could be what I was when I wished I could be what I am."

(Put *that* in your tensed modal logic and smoke it!)

Larry

>It's a headline in Sunday's New York Post.
>...
>...
>...
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>...
>DC to LA, Her Way
>Susan Gailey. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
>D.C.: Dec 10, 1978. p. SM5 (1 page)
>...
>...
>(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>...
>  The Chronicle TelegramMonday, May 03, 1976 Elyria, Ohio
>...HOLLYWOOD (UPI) "Be CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR." said Jill St
>John, "YOU're.....imag- ine that would improve it "BE CAREFUL WHAT
>YOU WISH said Jill St. John..

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun  5 21:57:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:57:34 -0700
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

FWIW, "lynching" has never been restricted to hanging, though in modern usage that does seem to be the usual connotation.  Undoubtedly it's been influenced by innumerable movie lynchings of hoss and cattle thieves who are uniformly hanged by vigilantes.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray"
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
>
>
>>Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>>living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
>>things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>>lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>>practice?
>>-Wilson
>
>Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call lynching
>of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>
And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching (as
opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
voting registrations drives and freedom riding. I can't recall
hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.

Larry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun  5 23:22:53 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:22:53 -0400
Subject: Goethe Quote
In-Reply-To: <200506050552.j555qg6F025456@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 18, 1932. p.
> BR29 (2 pages) _"What You Set Your Heart Upon"_ M. BECKHARD, New York
> City--The quotation from Emerson wanted by S. E. B. (Aug. 28) is
> probably the following from his essay on "Fate":
>
> ...the moral is that what we seek we shall find; ... as Goethe said:
> "What we wish for in youth come in heaps on us in old age, too often
> cursed with the granting of our prayer; and hence the high caution that
> since we are sure of having what we wish we beware to ask only of high
> things."

Can anyone help me trace where Goethe said this?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun  5 23:47:35 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:47:35 -0400
Subject: Goethe Quote
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

http://www.wissen-im-netz.info/literatur/goethe/dichtung/2teil.htm

http://www.goethesociety.org/pages/quotes.html

-- Doug Wilson

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  6 03:36:01 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:36:01 -0400
Subject: Wall Dogs (the men who put up advertising on walls)
Message-ID: 

No, not "hot dogs." Not even "dogs." No connection to "Walmart." "Wall dogs."
...
It's not in OED. Does any slang dictionary have it?
...
I checked for "wall dogs" + "advertising" to avoid the many bad hits. Two nice NYC articles follow.
...
...
...

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-03-20/244.asp
...
The wall dogs' last stand: technology puts sign painters out of work
By Leila Abboud

PHOTO: Leila Abboud
The "wall dogs" at work high above Shea Stadium
Alberto Gonzalez gazed out onto 55,000 empty seats at Shea Stadium. He stood on a scaffold 80 feet above the ground, with his back against the towering scoreboard. Below, men with white plastic buckets and hoes were picking through the brown grass of the field. A month before opening day, Shea Stadium still looked like a woman without makeup.
It was the first day on the job for the sign painters, Alberto Gonzalez and Ruben Sacastro. Over the next month, the two would paint all the advertisements in the stadium: the murals on the scoreboard, along the outfield, the curved stands, and the interior hallways.
Gonzalez, a 54 year-old immigrant from Ecuador, turned to face the 80-by-45-foot Budweiser advertisement that flanked the scoreboard. Red paint dripped from the roller brush he held in his hand, falling onto the already-speckled toe of his worn construction boot. Another season, another paint job, Gonzalez thought.
As Gonzalez rolled the brush up and down the wall he said, "I'm the last dinosaur. We're going to disappear."
Alberto Gonzalez is one of a dying breed -- outdoor sign painters who practice their craft on brick walls and billboards all over New York City. For decades, men like Gonzalez have balanced hundreds of feet in the air on scaffolds no more than two feet wide, braving the blazing sun, wind and cold to paint advertisements.
The advent of digitally printed vinyl ads over the past decade has rendered painted ads nearly obsolete. Vinyl ads are cheaper and faster to produce, and neon and electric ads have spread. The union to which Gonzalez belongs once had hundreds of members. Now there are a dozen. Similar shrinkage has occurred across the nation.
With the sign painters will disappear the last traces of an era of American advertising when itinerant sign painters ruled. Nicknamed "wall dogs," these men traveled the country from the 1920s to the 1950s spreading the first national advertising campaigns. They emblazoned the sides of barns with logos for products like Mail Pouch Tobacco and Coca-Cola.
The men earned a reputation for being wild, said St. Louis-based photographer William Stage, who published a book about the "wall dogs" and their work. "They would drink beer as they hung from rope scaffolds high above the street, and spill paint on cars and people below," said Stage.
In many cities, including New York, traces of the wall dogs' handiwork can still be seen. The lead-based paint of the old ads survived time and weather.
Although Gonzalez may think his craft is nearly extinct, his work and that of other "wall dogs" may not be forgotten. A small but devoted band of photographers and urban archeologists across the country has tried to preserve and document the remaining ghost signs. And in Los Angeles, outdoor advertising companies have seen an increased demand for painted signs after the city outlawed large vinyl draped signs two months ago. In Fort Dodge, Iowa, a building was torn down revealing a red, white and blue Coca-Cola ad on the adjacent building. The town is debating whether to restore the sign.
"People are drawn to them because it reminds them of another time," said Frank Jump, a New York-based documentary photographer who has photographed thousands of old ads over the past five years. Restoring old ads for historic or nostalgic value has become something of a trend in the Midwest, said Jump.
High above Shea Stadium, Gonzalez has no illusions about the future of the painted signs. He rattled off the names of new sign technology, "Flexface, Paraflex, G-Flex? They replace the artists."
Gonzalez adjusted his weight as his partner Sacrasto moved closer to the right edge of the scaffold. After painting side by side for 13 years, the men move about with the ease of longtime dance partners. Novice painters are taught to make no sudden movements that can throw their partners off balance. Scaffolds tilt under the painters' boots and a sudden gust of wind can send them flying away from the wall.
As Gonzalez painted, he recalled his early days in the business. At 20, speaking no English, he came to New York where his older brother got him his first job in a sign shop. "I lived like a gypsy," Gonzalez said of his frequent moves. His older brother, who was nicknamed the Maestro for the artistic flair of the ads he painted, trained him. Gonzalez's two younger brothers followed, also getting jobs in the sign business.
"If you don't pay me money, I'll do it for free," said Gonzalez, who earns $28 an hour, the wage set by the union for a master painter. He has worked through summer sun and winter wind. He even kept painting after his older brother was killed on the job less than a week before he was to retire. No one knows how the Maestro slipped and fell off the metal scaffold, but he broke his neck, and was killed instantly.
Gonzalez looked over to his partner at the other end of the paint-speckled scaffold and jabbed his finger downward. He flipped a switch and the electric scaffold began its descent.
Mike Lugo, the union chief, greeted the painters as the scaffold reached the ground. "This job keeps you young," said Lugo. "You go places only the birds go."

...
...
...
(FACTIVA)
Ghost signs Images from bygone days linger on the bricks

Terri Finch Hamilton
1,165 words
24 June 1990
The Grand Rapids Press
b1
English
(Copyright 1990)

In this day of signs that flash, wink, blink and otherwise assail our citified senses, there's a calm in the storm of technology.
Simple letters painted on brick walls. Faded with time, ravaged by the elements, but lingering, in ghostly fashion, along the streets we drive every day.
It used to be fairly easy to overlook these faded remnants of years past. But now there's this book out by a man who writes of them with such passion, we have to wonder if there's something we're missing.
Seems there is.
"Ghost Signs: Brick Wall Signs in America," is by William Stage, a former Grand Rapidian who spent 10 years traveling across country documenting these signs.
In the book's forward, Arthur Krim, founding member of the Society for Commercial Archaeology, explains the book's eerie title:
"Some call them `ghost signs,' apparitions visible under certain light conditions when their painted letters rise from the wall to herald a forgotten flour or smoking tobacco. In this muted light, colors become tinted again and sometimes portions of different signs will appear, their letters jumbled and overlapped - a cup of alphabet soup. Yet with a patient stare, one can see the letters re-form to a recognized order, as a Mayan codex deciphered in sudden discovery and delight."
If this seems like flowery prose for paint on brick, you haven't caught the fever yet.
Stage, a 1969 graduate of Catholic Central High School and a 1976 graduate of the defunct Thomas Jefferson College of Grand Valley State is an unabashed brick wall sign fanatic.
"When a building is torn down and it exposes an old sign on the building next to it - preserved so well from the elements, it's a miracle," Stage said in a phone interview from his home in St. Louis.
You don't have to believe in miracles to appreciate these old signs - whether you see them on the pages on Stage's book or come across one in this very town.
The signs on these pages aren't in Stage's book - but he's pickier than we are. You can see these signs around town. In fact, chances are you've already seen them, dozens of times.
And we know we didn't find them all, which means those who are moved to action by Stage's words can don their safari hats, grab their binoculars and hit the streets in a summertime hunt for ghost signs.
What makes a good sign?
"A naive or outdated slogan," Stage said. "And if it has a picture along with it, not just copy, that's really cool, too. I like that."
The bad news?
"Grand Rapids doesn't really have any good ones," he said. "They've all been painted over or the buildings have been torn down."
The one Grand Rapids sign he included in his book - a sign advertising Rindge, Kalmbach, Logie and Co. shoes - "has been gone since about 1915," Stage said.
The fact that these signs disappear as abruptly as they went up is what spurred Stage to start capturing them on film.
"Sometimes I would discover a particularly fine sign, only to drive past a month later and find the building gone," he writes in the book. "Razed. Sacrificed on the altar of urban renewal. I thought, `If these choice specimens have met the wrecking ball in just the last few months, think of how many perished before I came along.' I began carrying a camera in my car."
The advent of the highway system in the 1950s was the downfall of the brick wall sign, Stage said.
"In the past, traffic was confined to the cities, but when the highways were built, people started driving outside the city, and from city to city, so along came billboards," he said. "Billboards were a big factor in the decline of the brick wall sign. That, and the fact that they just don't make big brick warehouses anymore."
The good news is the art hasn't died out. You still can see newer brick wall signs, especially in brick-laden Cincinnati, Stage said.
Brick walls have become popular city canvases for artists, too, during the past decade, he noted.
Stage has considered writing a sequel to his ode to brick signs, but for now he's working on an extended photo essay of the Midwest. He also writes a column for the Riverfront weekly newspaper in St. Louis.
Meanwhile, not all history buffs embrace brick wall signs with the same passion Stage does.
"I see them mainly as triggers to memory," observed Grand Rapids historian Gordon Olson. "In and of themselves, they're not the kind of thing you think of preserving. They're too vulnerable to outside sources.
"They're worth getting a photo of before they disappear," he noted.
Olson does talk fondly of the old Silver Foam Beer sign that used to be on the side of the Shamrock Bar at Madison and Hall streets. Now that was a sign worth preserving, he said, maybe for the new public museum. But alas. "A fire in the building did it in, I think," he said.
The old Mail Pouch Tobacco signs on the sides of barns "were an integral part of the rural landscape," Olson said. The farmers used to get their barns painted for free if they offered the side for a Mail Pouch Tobacco sign, he said, and he knows of efforts to try to preserve some of those signs.
"But they didn't paint these signs for permanence - theirs was a transitory effort," Olson said. "Then it becomes a curiosity a generation or two later.
"I'm not dismissing their importance," Olson said, "but I see them mainly as memory triggers. That's what they were initially intended for - to catch your attention for a moment."
Those who want to hunt for these old signs should picture themselves as old "wall dogs" - the men who made a living painting them, Olson said.
...
...
...
(FACTIVA)
The City Weekly Desk; Section 14
NEIGHBORHOOD REPORT: MIDTOWN
Wall Signs of Old Times

By ANDREA DELBANCO
151 words
19 March 2000
The New York Times
Page 17, Column 2
English
c. 2000 New York Times Company

THOUGH controversy swirls around today's giant advertising signs, oversized ads are nothing new. As evidence, the Municipal Art Society is putting on an exhibit called ''Art of the Wall Dogs: The Painted Signs of Yesteryear.'' The work of the ''wall dogs,'' from around the turn of the last century, has been documented in photographs by Sava Mitrovich, who was born in Belgrade and immigrated to New York in 1969.
Many of the signs he documented are still visible today though some are images of advertisers (like the one at left) that have faded into obscurity.
''Art of the Wall Dogs: The Painted Signs of Yesteryear;'' Wednesday through April 29; Mondays through Saturdays, 11 A.M. to 5 P.M.; Municipal Art Society, 457 Madison Avenue at 51st Street; free; (212) 935-3960.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun  6 05:22:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 01:22:45 -0400
Subject: Bouncer (1865)
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 07:21:19 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>Anyone have a better "bouncer"? Newspaperarchive is not working right
>now, for me at least.
>...
>(OED)
>bouncer
>   5. One  engaged to eject undesirable or unruly persons from a saloon,
>ballroom, etc.; a  'chucker-out'. colloq. (orig.  U.S.).
>
>1865 Nat. Police Gaz. (U.S.) 29 Apr. 4/2 Old Moyamensing is almost as
>famous for its lawless gangs of boys and young men, as it was in the
>days of the 'killers' and 'bouncers.'

This cite should probably be bracketed, since it refers to the names of
gangs in antebellum Philadelphia (Moyamensing was a notoriously rough
district).  Here are a few earlier cites:

-----
_National Police Gazette_, Aug. 8, 1846, p. 405, col. 1 (APS)
PHILADELPHIA RIOTS. -- The three gangs of rowdies in Philadelphia, called
"The Killers," "The Bouncers," and "The Rats," keep that city in constant
turmoil, and they or other gangs ever will, until the police of the whole
county is placed under one general head by the Legislature.
-----
_Tioga Eagle_ (Wellsboro, Pa.), Nov. 24, 1847, p. 1, col. 5-6 (NPA)
"From Philadelphia" ... Some time ago there were in the District of
Southwark, a notorious gang of rowdies, who prided themselves in being
called "Killers." When the requisition was made upon this State, for
volunteers to go to Mexico, the leader of this gang, and a number of
kindred spirits, enlisted for the campaign. In consequence the
organization was broken up. Upon the ruins of the "Killers," how ever, two
more clubs have sprung into existence, called the "Bouncers" and the
"Skinners" who bid fair to emulate the deeds of their glorious
predecessors. On Friday evening last, the "Bouncers" and "Skinners" came
in contact, at the corner of Fourth and Catherine streets.
-----
_Saturday Evening Post_ (Philadelphia), Oct. 6, 1849, p. 2, col. 4 (APS)
These measures will of course be strenuously opposed by the would-be great
men who figure at the head of the present city and district corporations,
by the rowdy portion of the firemen, and by the "Killers," "Bouncers,"
&c., and their friends.
-----

It's possible that the Philadelphia "Bouncers" were the source for the
later sense of "bouncer", but I haven't seen any evidence for that.

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun  6 06:10:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 02:10:32 -0400
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
Message-ID: 

I came across this passage looking for those Philadelphia gangs of the
1840s (Bouncers, Skinners, Killers).  Here's another sense of "skinner"
('fleecer', antedating the OED's 1856 cite) -- coupled with our old friend
"sh(u)yster", less than two years after its coinage:

-----
_Tioga Eagle_ (Wellsboro, Pa.), Feb. 26, 1845, p. 1, col. 3
"Festival of the Sucking Lawyers"
...
Mr. Van Witherem rose to give as an irregular toast: 'The Shuysters and
Skinners of the Tombs -- it is true they were the outsiders of the
profession, but still as they hung to the _skirts_ of the regulars, and
had been partakers of the _fleece_, he did not see how they could suffer
such sharp practice to be _shorn_ of every _shred_ of the usual honors.'
-- Here the president interposed and insisted that the Skinners and
Shuysters had brought the profession into disgrace, and ought to be
scratched out by a _bar_ sinister.
-----

There's no attribution given to this humorous piece, but it's possible
that it was reprinted from a New York paper (the reference to "the Tombs"
certainly suggests so).

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  6 07:33:21 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 03:33:21 -0400
Subject: "Wait 'til next year!" (1938, at least,  for Brooklyn Dodgers)
Message-ID: 

http://www.barrypopik.com/article/980/wait-til-next-year-brooklyn-dodgers
...
Anybody got a "wait until next year," with/without the Brooklyn Dodgers? I can't check the Sporting News on this computer.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun  6 09:03:42 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 05:03:42 -0400
Subject: "Wait 'til next year!" (1938, at least, for Brooklyn Dodgers)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 03:33:21 -0400, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>http://www.barrypopik.com/article/980/wait-til-next-year-brooklyn-dodgers
>...
>Anybody got a "wait until next year," with/without the Brooklyn Dodgers?
>I can't check the Sporting News on this computer.

Looks like the expression was once associated with the Washington
Senators, but even a century ago it was an old joke.

-----
Washington Post, Sep 29, 1903, p. 8
The Senators could do nothing in the next two innings.
"Wait till next year."
-----
Washington Post, Oct 7, 1906, p. S1
BASEBALL YEAR ENDS ... Manager Stahl Again Speaks of Washington Club's
Success -- Says Team Received Splendid Support, and Winds Up with "Wait
Until Next Year."
...
And with a smile, the Senators' manager sprung the old gag: "Wait until
next year."
-----

(The hapless Senators would eventually win the World Series in 1924, plus
two more pennants in 1925 and 1933.  And now Washington finally has a
first-place team again!)

--Ben Zimmer

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Jun  6 09:31:56 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:31:56 +0100
Subject: Joystick
Message-ID: 

Tom Zeller was kind enough to mention me in the New York Times
yesterday in a piece about the origins of "joystick":

 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/weekinreview/05zeller.html?hp

but he once again repeats the tale that the word derives from the
name of its inventor. He elaborates the story to a "Missouri pilot
and inventor, James Henry Joyce", hence "Joyce stick".

My attempts some months ago to find this inventive aviator failed -
the Science Museum in London and other aviation sources had no record
of him. I had assumed that we have here yet another folk etymology,
an unreal intersection of Henry James and James Joyce. Unlike Mr
Joyce, I'm not from Missouri, but I still need to be shown something
tangible before I accept he exists.

Has anyone come across him?

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Jun  6 10:57:43 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:57:43 +0100
Subject: mano on mano
Message-ID: 

1995 cite:

"Look man we talk bout this later, mano on mano. You dig?" Larry offered,
hoping to quell the tension.

http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/Paladin/Paladin-Park
er.The_Basketball_Team_Part_4.txt

--Neil Crawford

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  6 11:35:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 04:35:31 -0700
Subject: Wall Dogs (the men who put up advertising on walls)
Message-ID: 

Not in any slang dictionary. New to me.

JL

bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Wall Dogs (the men who put up advertising on walls)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, not "hot dogs." Not even "dogs." No connection to "Walmart." "Wall dogs."
...
It's not in OED. Does any slang dictionary have it?
...
I checked for "wall dogs" + "advertising" to avoid the many bad hits. Two nice NYC articles follow.
...
...
...

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-03-20/244.asp
...
The wall dogs' last stand: technology puts sign painters out of work
By Leila Abboud

PHOTO: Leila Abboud
The "wall dogs" at work high above Shea Stadium
Alberto Gonzalez gazed out onto 55,000 empty seats at Shea Stadium. He stood on a scaffold 80 feet above the ground, with his back against the towering scoreboard. Below, men with white plastic buckets and hoes were picking through the brown grass of the field. A month before opening day, Shea Stadium still looked like a woman without makeup.
It was the first day on the job for the sign painters, Alberto Gonzalez and Ruben Sacastro. Over the next month, the two would paint all the advertisements in the stadium: the murals on the scoreboard, along the outfield, the curved stands, and the interior hallways.
Gonzalez, a 54 year-old immigrant from Ecuador, turned to face the 80-by-45-foot Budweiser advertisement that flanked the scoreboard. Red paint dripped from the roller brush he held in his hand, falling onto the already-speckled toe of his worn construction boot. Another season, another paint job, Gonzalez thought.
As Gonzalez rolled the brush up and down the wall he said, "I'm the last dinosaur. We're going to disappear."
Alberto Gonzalez is one of a dying breed -- outdoor sign painters who practice their craft on brick walls and billboards all over New York City. For decades, men like Gonzalez have balanced hundreds of feet in the air on scaffolds no more than two feet wide, braving the blazing sun, wind and cold to paint advertisements.
The advent of digitally printed vinyl ads over the past decade has rendered painted ads nearly obsolete. Vinyl ads are cheaper and faster to produce, and neon and electric ads have spread. The union to which Gonzalez belongs once had hundreds of members. Now there are a dozen. Similar shrinkage has occurred across the nation.
With the sign painters will disappear the last traces of an era of American advertising when itinerant sign painters ruled. Nicknamed "wall dogs," these men traveled the country from the 1920s to the 1950s spreading the first national advertising campaigns. They emblazoned the sides of barns with logos for products like Mail Pouch Tobacco and Coca-Cola.
The men earned a reputation for being wild, said St. Louis-based photographer William Stage, who published a book about the "wall dogs" and their work. "They would drink beer as they hung from rope scaffolds high above the street, and spill paint on cars and people below," said Stage.
In many cities, including New York, traces of the wall dogs' handiwork can still be seen. The lead-based paint of the old ads survived time and weather.
Although Gonzalez may think his craft is nearly extinct, his work and that of other "wall dogs" may not be forgotten. A small but devoted band of photographers and urban archeologists across the country has tried to preserve and document the remaining ghost signs. And in Los Angeles, outdoor advertising companies have seen an increased demand for painted signs after the city outlawed large vinyl draped signs two months ago. In Fort Dodge, Iowa, a building was torn down revealing a red, white and blue Coca-Cola ad on the adjacent building. The town is debating whether to restore the sign.
"People are drawn to them because it reminds them of another time," said Frank Jump, a New York-based documentary photographer who has photographed thousands of old ads over the past five years. Restoring old ads for historic or nostalgic value has become something of a trend in the Midwest, said Jump.
High above Shea Stadium, Gonzalez has no illusions about the future of the painted signs. He rattled off the names of new sign technology, "Flexface, Paraflex, G-Flex? They replace the artists."
Gonzalez adjusted his weight as his partner Sacrasto moved closer to the right edge of the scaffold. After painting side by side for 13 years, the men move about with the ease of longtime dance partners. Novice painters are taught to make no sudden movements that can throw their partners off balance. Scaffolds tilt under the painters' boots and a sudden gust of wind can send them flying away from the wall.
As Gonzalez painted, he recalled his early days in the business. At 20, speaking no English, he came to New York where his older brother got him his first job in a sign shop. "I lived like a gypsy," Gonzalez said of his frequent moves. His older brother, who was nicknamed the Maestro for the artistic flair of the ads he painted, trained him. Gonzalez's two younger brothers followed, also getting jobs in the sign business.
"If you don't pay me money, I'll do it for free," said Gonzalez, who earns $28 an hour, the wage set by the union for a master painter. He has worked through summer sun and winter wind. He even kept painting after his older brother was killed on the job less than a week before he was to retire. No one knows how the Maestro slipped and fell off the metal scaffold, but he broke his neck, and was killed instantly.
Gonzalez looked over to his partner at the other end of the paint-speckled scaffold and jabbed his finger downward. He flipped a switch and the electric scaffold began its descent.
Mike Lugo, the union chief, greeted the painters as the scaffold reached the ground. "This job keeps you young," said Lugo. "You go places only the birds go."

...
...
...
(FACTIVA)
Ghost signs Images from bygone days linger on the bricks

Terri Finch Hamilton
1,165 words
24 June 1990
The Grand Rapids Press
b1
English
(Copyright 1990)

In this day of signs that flash, wink, blink and otherwise assail our citified senses, there's a calm in the storm of technology.
Simple letters painted on brick walls. Faded with time, ravaged by the elements, but lingering, in ghostly fashion, along the streets we drive every day.
It used to be fairly easy to overlook these faded remnants of years past. But now there's this book out by a man who writes of them with such passion, we have to wonder if there's something we're missing.
Seems there is.
"Ghost Signs: Brick Wall Signs in America," is by William Stage, a former Grand Rapidian who spent 10 years traveling across country documenting these signs.
In the book's forward, Arthur Krim, founding member of the Society for Commercial Archaeology, explains the book's eerie title:
"Some call them `ghost signs,' apparitions visible under certain light conditions when their painted letters rise from the wall to herald a forgotten flour or smoking tobacco. In this muted light, colors become tinted again and sometimes portions of different signs will appear, their letters jumbled and overlapped - a cup of alphabet soup. Yet with a patient stare, one can see the letters re-form to a recognized order, as a Mayan codex deciphered in sudden discovery and delight."
If this seems like flowery prose for paint on brick, you haven't caught the fever yet.
Stage, a 1969 graduate of Catholic Central High School and a 1976 graduate of the defunct Thomas Jefferson College of Grand Valley State is an unabashed brick wall sign fanatic.
"When a building is torn down and it exposes an old sign on the building next to it - preserved so well from the elements, it's a miracle," Stage said in a phone interview from his home in St. Louis.
You don't have to believe in miracles to appreciate these old signs - whether you see them on the pages on Stage's book or come across one in this very town.
The signs on these pages aren't in Stage's book - but he's pickier than we are. You can see these signs around town. In fact, chances are you've already seen them, dozens of times.
And we know we didn't find them all, which means those who are moved to action by Stage's words can don their safari hats, grab their binoculars and hit the streets in a summertime hunt for ghost signs.
What makes a good sign?
"A naive or outdated slogan," Stage said. "And if it has a picture along with it, not just copy, that's really cool, too. I like that."
The bad news?
"Grand Rapids doesn't really have any good ones," he said. "They've all been painted over or the buildings have been torn down."
The one Grand Rapids sign he included in his book - a sign advertising Rindge, Kalmbach, Logie and Co. shoes - "has been gone since about 1915," Stage said.
The fact that these signs disappear as abruptly as they went up is what spurred Stage to start capturing them on film.
"Sometimes I would discover a particularly fine sign, only to drive past a month later and find the building gone," he writes in the book. "Razed. Sacrificed on the altar of urban renewal. I thought, `If these choice specimens have met the wrecking ball in just the last few months, think of how many perished before I came along.' I began carrying a camera in my car."
The advent of the highway system in the 1950s was the downfall of the brick wall sign, Stage said.
"In the past, traffic was confined to the cities, but when the highways were built, people started driving outside the city, and from city to city, so along came billboards," he said. "Billboards were a big factor in the decline of the brick wall sign. That, and the fact that they just don't make big brick warehouses anymore."
The good news is the art hasn't died out. You still can see newer brick wall signs, especially in brick-laden Cincinnati, Stage said.
Brick walls have become popular city canvases for artists, too, during the past decade, he noted.
Stage has considered writing a sequel to his ode to brick signs, but for now he's working on an extended photo essay of the Midwest. He also writes a column for the Riverfront weekly newspaper in St. Louis.
Meanwhile, not all history buffs embrace brick wall signs with the same passion Stage does.
"I see them mainly as triggers to memory," observed Grand Rapids historian Gordon Olson. "In and of themselves, they're not the kind of thing you think of preserving. They're too vulnerable to outside sources.
"They're worth getting a photo of before they disappear," he noted.
Olson does talk fondly of the old Silver Foam Beer sign that used to be on the side of the Shamrock Bar at Madison and Hall streets. Now that was a sign worth preserving, he said, maybe for the new public museum. But alas. "A fire in the building did it in, I think," he said.
The old Mail Pouch Tobacco signs on the sides of barns "were an integral part of the rural landscape," Olson said. The farmers used to get their barns painted for free if they offered the side for a Mail Pouch Tobacco sign, he said, and he knows of efforts to try to preserve some of those signs.
"But they didn't paint these signs for permanence - theirs was a transitory effort," Olson said. "Then it becomes a curiosity a generation or two later.
"I'm not dismissing their importance," Olson said, "but I see them mainly as memory triggers. That's what they were initially intended for - to catch your attention for a moment."
Those who want to hunt for these old signs should picture themselves as old "wall dogs" - the men who made a living painting them, Olson said.
...
...
...
(FACTIVA)
The City Weekly Desk; Section 14
NEIGHBORHOOD REPORT: MIDTOWN
Wall Signs of Old Times

By ANDREA DELBANCO
151 words
19 March 2000
The New York Times
Page 17, Column 2
English
c. 2000 New York Times Company

THOUGH controversy swirls around today's giant advertising signs, oversized ads are nothing new. As evidence, the Municipal Art Society is putting on an exhibit called ''Art of the Wall Dogs: The Painted Signs of Yesteryear.'' The work of the ''wall dogs,'' from around the turn of the last century, has been documented in photographs by Sava Mitrovich, who was born in Belgrade and immigrated to New York in 1969.
Many of the signs he documented are still visible today though some are images of advertisers (like the one at left) that have faded into obscurity.
''Art of the Wall Dogs: The Painted Signs of Yesteryear;'' Wednesday through April 29; Mondays through Saturdays, 11 A.M. to 5 P.M.; Municipal Art Society, 457 Madison Avenue at 51st Street; free; (212) 935-3960.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From Berson at ATT.NET  Mon Jun  6 13:46:27 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:46:27 -0400
Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
Message-ID: 

The expression "Been too free with Sir John Strawberry" is in Franklin's
"Drinkers Dictionary".

I have come across the expression as "Been free with Sir John
Straw-Jacket".  How might this -- or Franklin's version -- have arisen?

What might "straw-jacket" mean?  (I do not find it Googling, but I do not
have access to the databases others on this list seem to use.)  Could it
have been a New England regionalism for "strawberry"?

Joel

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Jun  6 14:16:56 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:16:56 -0500
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
Message-ID: 

   Benjamin Zimmer's spottings of early attestations are always interesting.
His 1845 "shuyster" below is only the second example I have of this term being spelled with "-uy-."  The other example is from 1856, cited in Craigie-Hulbert's _Dictionary of Americanisms on Historical Principles._

    As for where the 1845 passage first appeared, I doubt it was in a NYC newspaper.  The mainstream NYC press in 1845 wouldn't touch "shyster"  with the proverbial ten-foot pole.  Still, whoever produced the passage below was familiar both with the Tombs (NYC courthouse and jail) and with the "shysters"
(original meaning: lowlifes who ran a scam on the prisoners) being on the periphery of the legal profession.

    Evidently the writer of the passage below was generally familiar with the Tombs and the shysters but did not read Mike Walsh's _The Subterranean_, which by the fall of 1843 had fixed the spelling of "shyster" in its present form.
And Walsh, the courageous editor to whom we largely owe this term (he sharlply criticized the scam practiced against the prisoners) never spelled the term with -uy-.

   Also, btw, Mr. Van Witherem in the passage below is most likely a fictitious name, invented to add to the humor (based on the verb "wither," i.e., his words (humorously) had a withering effect on those he criticized; and -em = them.) Cf. the names in the modern (fictitious) lawfirm Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe.

Gerald Cohen
author, two monographs on the origin of the term "shyster"
(Barry Popik has since added some new material in article form,
but the basic picture on the origin of "shyster" still seems valid after these ca. 22 years.

        ***********

            Original message, from Benjamin Zimmer, June 6, 2005:
        -- coupled with our old friend "sh(u)yster", less than two years after its coinage:

> -----
> _Tioga Eagle_ (Wellsboro, Pa.), Feb. 26, 1845, p. 1, col. 3 "Festival of the Sucking Lawyers"
> ...
> Mr. Van Witherem rose to give as an irregular toast: 'The Shuysters and Skinners of the Tombs -- it is true they were the outsiders of the profession, but still as they hung to the _skirts_ of the regulars, and
> had been partakers of the _fleece_, he did not see how they could suffer such sharp practice to be _shorn_ of every _shred_ of the usual honors.'
> -- Here the president interposed and insisted that the Skinners and Shuysters had brought the profession into disgrace, and ought to be scratched out by a _bar_ sinister.
> -----
>
> There's no attribution given to this humorous piece, but it's possible that it was reprinted from a New York paper (the reference to "the Tombs" certainly suggests so).
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
>
>

From kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG  Mon Jun  6 14:29:25 2005
From: kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG (Katy Miller)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:29:25 -0400
Subject: OT: In defense of Bill Safire
In-Reply-To: <200506050113192.SM02140@psmtp.com>
Message-ID: 

I'm pretty sure Bill isn't on this list serv, and therefore, he had no
way of knowing about the discussion. Sure, he SHOULD be on the list. But
there are many technical things a lot of 75 year olds don't get the hang
of.

In addition, he donated his language library to the Times, so he doesn't
have his books. Both Elizabeth and I are gone and I don't think the
Time's is paying for a research assistant for one column a week for a
"contributor" who doesn't work there anymore. So there was no one to
give him the heads up either.

He's on his own. Give him a break.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun  6 14:38:55 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:38:55 -0400
Subject: mano on mano
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:57:43 +0100, neil  wrote:

>1995 cite:
>
>"Look man we talk bout this later, mano on mano. You dig?" Larry offered,
>hoping to quell the tension.
>
>http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/Paladin/Paladin-Park
>er.The_Basketball_Team_Part_4.txt

Thanks-- it's been added to the Eggcorn Database entry...

http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun  6 15:05:07 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:05:07 -0400
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:16:56 -0500, Cohen, Gerald Leonard 
wrote:
>
>Benjamin Zimmer's spottings of early attestations are always interesting.
>His 1845 "shuyster" below is only the second example I have of this term
>being spelled with "-uy-."  The other example is from 1856, cited in
>Craigie-Hulbert's _Dictionary of Americanisms on Historical Principles._

There's another cite for "shuyster" on N-archive, in a reprinted letter
from a Civil War soldier who fought at Gettsyburg (no date given, but
presumably 1863).  The letter was in the possession of the soldier's
great-grandson.

-----
_Gettysburg Times_ (Pa.), Aug. 2, 1990, p. 5A, col. 2
[Lt. Isaac Newton Durboraw:] "I did not find many of the people in the
neighborhood at their homes, and their houses were occupied by skulkers
and shuysters absent from their commands. When I got back to the company I
shared out the contents of my haversack, and when we marched that night,
it was empty."
-----

>  Also, btw, Mr. Van Witherem in the passage below is most likely a
>fictitious name, invented to add to the humor (based on the verb
>"wither," i.e., his words (humorously) had a withering effect on those
>he criticized; and -em = them.) Cf. the names in the modern (fictitious)
>lawfirm Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe.

That's right.  Other names given to the "sucking" (i.e., 'budding')
lawyers in the story are: Shearem & Fishhoek, Puffendorf, Littleton Leach,
Blackstone Woodcock, Spoonbill, Pettimus, and Foggum.

>>-----
>>_Tioga Eagle_ (Wellsboro, Pa.), Feb. 26, 1845, p. 1, col. 3 "Festival
>>of the Sucking Lawyers"
>>...
>>Mr. Van Witherem rose to give as an irregular toast: 'The Shuysters
>>and Skinners of the Tombs -- it is true they were the outsiders of the
>>profession, but still as they hung to the _skirts_ of the regulars, and
>>had been partakers of the _fleece_, he did not see how they could
>>suffer such sharp practice to be _shorn_ of every _shred_ of the usual
>>honors.' -- Here the president interposed and insisted that the Skinners
>>and Shuysters had brought the profession into disgrace, and ought to be
>>scratched out by a _bar_ sinister.
>>-----

--Ben Zimmer

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun  6 15:05:36 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:05:36 -0400
Subject: mano on mano
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>1995 cite:
>
>"Look man we talk bout this later, mano on mano. You dig?" Larry offered,
>hoping to quell the tension.
>
>http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/Paladin/Paladin-Park
>er.The_Basketball_Team_Part_4.txt
>
>--Neil Crawford

N.B.  The cited speaker wasn't me.  I might have said "mano in mano",
but not "on".

Larry

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Jun  6 15:21:50 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:21:50 +0100
Subject: undue/undo
Message-ID: 

well if you pronounce it like that, why not spell it so?

'After we had finished watching the second movie, we took turns going into
her bathroom and getting ready for bed and relieving ourselves of any undo
pressures.'

And is this an eggcorn? -- shuddering/shuttering

'Martha screamed out underneath me as I pumped her faster
than before.  I could feel her shutter and arch her back up beneath me.'

http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/R_Hawk/R_Hawk.THE_CA
RLSON_SERIES_Jake_and_Christa's_Story.txt

--Neil Crawford

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun  6 15:23:55 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:23:55 -0500
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
Message-ID: 

The Pittsfield Sun.;  Date: 1858-07-08;   Vol: LVIII;   Iss: 3016;
Page: [1];

"Jacob Shuyster, alias Tom Ham, a notorious burglar, who some years
since stole jewels, &c., from the Patent Office at Washington, was
arrested at Bridgeport, Ct., on Monday, by officers from Philadelphia on
a charge of making counterfeit coin."

From rshuy at MONTANA.COM  Mon Jun  6 15:53:49 2005
From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:53:49 -0600
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
In-Reply-To: <200506061505.j56F5IVk022639@mistersix.montana.com>
Message-ID: 

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
-
>
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:16:56 -0500, Cohen, Gerald Leonard 
> wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin Zimmer's spottings of early attestations are always interesting.
>> His 1845 "shuyster" below is only the second example I have of this term
>> being spelled with "-uy-."  The other example is from 1856, cited in
>> Craigie-Hulbert's _Dictionary of Americanisms on Historical Principles._
>
> There's another cite for "shuyster" on N-archive, in a reprinted letter
> from a Civil War soldier who fought at Gettsyburg (no date given, but
> presumably 1863).  The letter was in the possession of the soldier's
> great-grandson.
>
> -----
> _Gettysburg Times_ (Pa.), Aug. 2, 1990, p. 5A, col. 2
> [Lt. Isaac Newton Durboraw:] "I did not find many of the people in the
> neighborhood at their homes, and their houses were occupied by skulkers
> and shuysters absent from their commands. When I got back to the company I
> shared out the contents of my haversack, and when we marched that night,
> it was empty."
> -----
>
>>  Also, btw, Mr. Van Witherem in the passage below is most likely a
>> fictitious name, invented to add to the humor (based on the verb
>> "wither," i.e., his words (humorously) had a withering effect on those
>> he criticized; and -em = them.) Cf. the names in the modern (fictitious)
>> lawfirm Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe.
>
> That's right.  Other names given to the "sucking" (i.e., 'budding')
> lawyers in the story are: Shearem & Fishhoek, Puffendorf, Littleton Leach,
> Blackstone Woodcock, Spoonbill, Pettimus, and Foggum.
>
>>> -----
>>> _Tioga Eagle_ (Wellsboro, Pa.), Feb. 26, 1845, p. 1, col. 3 "Festival
>>> of the Sucking Lawyers"
>>> ...
>>> Mr. Van Witherem rose to give as an irregular toast: 'The Shuysters
>>> and Skinners of the Tombs -- it is true they were the outsiders of the
>>> profession, but still as they hung to the _skirts_ of the regulars, and
>>> had been partakers of the _fleece_, he did not see how they could
>>> suffer such sharp practice to be _shorn_ of every _shred_ of the usual
>>> honors.' -- Here the president interposed and insisted that the Skinners
>>> and Shuysters had brought the profession into disgrace, and ought to be
>>> scratched out by a _bar_ sinister.
>>> -----
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
I am somewhat amused at the spelling of shuyster. I've lived all my life
assuming that "uy" pronounced /ay/ was limited to "buy," "guy," and my
family name, Shuy. I'm not sure that I like your new found addition a whole
lot though.

Roger Shuy

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun  6 16:16:13 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:16:13 -0700
Subject: Half-orphan
Message-ID: 

This word, suggested by Wayne Leman on the lexicography list is missing from
the OED and AHD. It means a child who has lost one parent.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Jun  6 16:35:03 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:35:03 -0500
Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
Message-ID: 

 Possible shipping bottles in "straw jackets" to prevent breakage?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel S. Berson" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 8:46 AM
Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?

> The expression "Been too free with Sir John Strawberry" is in Franklin's
> "Drinkers Dictionary".
>
> I have come across the expression as "Been free with Sir John
> Straw-Jacket".  How might this -- or Franklin's version -- have arisen?
>
> What might "straw-jacket" mean?  (I do not find it Googling, but I do not
> have access to the databases others on this list seem to use.)  Could it
> have been a New England regionalism for "strawberry"?
>
> Joel
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun  6 18:12:50 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:12:50 -0700
Subject: undue/undo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 6, 2005, at 8:21 AM, Neil Crawford wrote:

> well if you pronounce it like that, why not spell it so?
>
> 'After we had finished watching the second movie, we took turns
> going into
> her bathroom and getting ready for bed and relieving ourselves of
> any undo
> pressures.'

"undue" >> "undo" is already in the eggcorn database.
>
> And is this an eggcorn? -- shuddering/shuttering
>
> 'Martha screamed out underneath me as I pumped her faster
> than before.  I could feel her shutter and arch her back up beneath
> me.'
>
> http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/ASSTR_Collection/R_Hawk/
> R_Hawk.THE_CARLSON_SERIES_Jake_and_Christa's_Story.txt

it's a possible.  could just be a misspelling, turning on american
intervocalic flapping.  the question is whether users of this
spelling think shutters are involved.

there are a fair number of google hits for "I shutter" ("to think",
"at...", etc.).

i'll put it in the database as "questionable".

arnold

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  6 19:12:30 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:12:30 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42a2a3e9.4a402b73.298b.ffffd0b7SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Sam, did you see the television show?

-Wilson Gray

On 6/5/05, Sam Clements  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Sam Clements 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
> > Of course. It will be my honor.
> >
> > In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
> > to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
> > black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
> > nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
> > not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.
>
> Her name was Gloria Loring.  The show, titled "The Singers," was aired on
> ABC on May 11, 1968.   But your characterization of the show as "devoted to
> the careers of two unknown female song stylists" is incorrect.   Every major
> newspaper I can read on Proquest make it clear that Aretha was big
> time("Respect" had won her a Grammy earlier that year) and Loring was a
> newbie.
>
> > The unknown black singer was Aretha, if you can believe that. Given
> > that her career went back to at least 1964 and probably farther, I was
> > stunned to discover that, clearly, no one at ABC/CBS/NBC had ever
> > heard of her.
>
> Her career went back to at least 1961, when she was recording for Coumbia.
> Trouble was, Columbia tried to make her a pop/jazz performer.  It didn't
> work. When she switched to the Atlantic label, and they promoted her r&b
> talents, the became very popular.
>
>
> > Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the average person on
> > the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave a
> > Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line by
> > 1967. Q.E.D.
>
> Are you saying that all of her records were sold only to blacks?  On March
> 19th of 1967, "I Never Loved A Man" topped out at #9 on Billboard's Top 40.
> On May 6th of that year(a year before that poor "unknown" was in that tv
> show), "Respect" topped out at #1.   No doubt at least one or two "white"
> stations were playing her songs.
>
>
> > Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
> > living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
> > things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
> > lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
> > practice?
> >-Wilson
>
> Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call lynching
> of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>
> I notice that Ben has replied better than I can.
>
> Sam Clements
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Jun  6 19:25:00 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:25:00 -0500
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
Message-ID: 

The meaning of "shuyster" in the Civil War letter below does not fit any of the usual meanings of "shyster." The soldier is using the term in the meaning "shirker," and so he must have associated "shyster" with "shy" in the expression "fight shy of" (avoid). In fact, "fight shy of" is one of the various incorrect etymologies given for the term "shyster"; the lawyer takes his client's money and then fights shy of him.

Gerald Cohen

        Original message from Benjamin Zimmer, June, 6, 2005:
> There's another cite for "shuyster" on N-archive, in a reprinted letter from a Civil War soldier who fought at Gettsyburg (no date given, but presumably 1863).  The letter was in the possession of the soldier's
> great-grandson.
>
> -----
> _Gettysburg Times_ (Pa.), Aug. 2, 1990, p. 5A, col. 2
> [Lt. Isaac Newton Durboraw:] "I did not find many of the people in the neighborhood at their homes, and their houses were occupied by skulkers and shuysters absent from their commands. When I got back to the company I shared out the contents of my haversack, and when we marched that night, it was empty."
> -----

From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Jun  6 19:32:48 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:32:48 -0500
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
Message-ID: 

FWIW, I never came across the surname "Shuyster." Is this bona fide?

Gerald Cohen

        * * * * *

Original message from Bill Mullins, June 6, 2005:
> The Pittsfield Sun.;  Date: 1858-07-08;   Vol: LVIII;   Iss: 3016;
> Page: [1];
>
> "Jacob Shuyster, alias Tom Ham, a notorious burglar, who some years since stole jewels, &c., from the Patent Office at Washington, was arrested at Bridgeport, Ct., on Monday, by officers from Philadelphia on a charge of making counterfeit coin."
>
>
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun  6 19:50:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:50:45 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:12:30 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>Sam, did you see the television show?

I won't speak for Sam (and as I said I wasn't born yet when this program
aired), but the contemporaneous print coverage available on Proquest all
suggests that Aretha was far from an "unknown" at the time.

-----
Los Angeles Times, May 5, 1968, p. P47
"The Singers: Two Profiles," 9:30 p.m. (7) Aretha Franklin and Gloria
Loring are featured in a documentary about the singing business. Miss
Franklin personifies the singer at the top of her occupation. Miss Loring
is a good example of the newcomer, currently breaking into what has been
described as the "loneliest profession in the world."
-----
Chicago Tribune, May 7, 1968, p. B19
"The Singers: Two profiles," an ABC-TV special to be shown at 8:30 p.m,
Chicago time, Saturday, will contrast the careers and singing styles of
two "stars" -- Aretha Franklin and Gloria Loring, which is a little like
comparing the aurora borealis to a Fourth of July sparkler.
But while Aretha has the big name and professional awards, Gloria has
another essential of success -- confidence. ... Not bad for her age, but
not exactly on the same plane as the First Lady of soul music -- Miss
Franklin.
-----
Los Angeles Times, May 11, 1968, p. B2
Two Singers: Two Profiles (Color). This one hour documentary examines the
lives and careers of Aretha Franklin and Gloria Loring. Miss Franklin,
chosen the female vocalist of the year in 1967 by several publications,
can't read a line of music. Miss Loring, however, studies music
constantly. Each has the same goal: success.
-----
Los Angeles Times, May 11, 1968, p. B3
Tonight's special viewing comes on ABC's "The Singers: Two Profiles," an
hour's look at the on-and-off stage lives of top recording artist Aretha
Franklin and newcomer Gloria Loring.
-----

One possibility that might explain your recollection... If the documentary
had footage of Aretha's earlier days of recording for Columbia, then that
would surely portray her as an "unknown" to white audiences at the time.
As Sam pointed out, she only became a breakout star once she made the move
to Atlantic in 1967.

--Ben Zimmer

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun  6 20:07:30 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:07:30 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <20050606040038.DB0C2B24E7@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

larry sez:
>>>
And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
civil rights volunteer)
<<<

Viola, not Violet. I remember.

Google's first hit is pretty informative:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAliuzzo.htm

mark by hand

From Berson at ATT.NET  Mon Jun  6 20:31:34 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:31:34 -0400
Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
Message-ID: 

But why "Sir John"?

At 6/6/2005 12:35 PM, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       paulzjoh 
>Subject:      Re: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Possible shipping bottles in "straw jackets" to prevent breakage?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joel S. Berson" 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 8:46 AM
>Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
>
>
> > The expression "Been too free with Sir John Strawberry" is in Franklin's
> > "Drinkers Dictionary".
> >
> > I have come across the expression as "Been free with Sir John
> > Straw-Jacket".  How might this -- or Franklin's version -- have arisen?
> >
> > What might "straw-jacket" mean?  (I do not find it Googling, but I do not
> > have access to the databases others on this list seem to use.)  Could it
> > have been a New England regionalism for "strawberry"?
> >
> > Joel
> >

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun  6 20:38:15 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:38:15 -0500
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
Message-ID: 

It's as bona fide as anything else you'd find in Newsbank's "Early
American Newspapers", I suppose.
"All I know is what I read in the papers . . . ."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:33 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" 
> Subject:      Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> FWIW, I never came across the surname "Shuyster." Is this bona fide?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>         * * * * *
>
> Original message from Bill Mullins, June 6, 2005:
> > The Pittsfield Sun.;  Date: 1858-07-08;   Vol: LVIII;   Iss: 3016;
> > Page: [1];
> >
> > "Jacob Shuyster, alias Tom Ham, a notorious burglar, who
> some years since stole jewels, &c., from the Patent Office at
> Washington, was arrested at Bridgeport, Ct., on Monday, by
> officers from Philadelphia on a charge of making counterfeit coin."
> >
> >
> >
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  6 20:59:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:59:14 -0700
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
Message-ID: 

I think the Civil War "shuyster" is a general term meaning "sneak, villain, or rascal."

James T. Farrell  was so using it in the '30s.

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The meaning of "shuyster" in the Civil War letter below does not fit any of the usual meanings of "shyster." The soldier is using the term in the meaning "shirker," and so he must have associated "shyster" with "shy" in the expression "fight shy of" (avoid). In fact, "fight shy of" is one of the various incorrect etymologies given for the term "shyster"; the lawyer takes his client's money and then fights shy of him.

Gerald Cohen

Original message from Benjamin Zimmer, June, 6, 2005:
> There's another cite for "shuyster" on N-archive, in a reprinted letter from a Civil War soldier who fought at Gettsyburg (no date given, but presumably 1863). The letter was in the possession of the soldier's
> great-grandson.
>
> -----
> _Gettysburg Times_ (Pa.), Aug. 2, 1990, p. 5A, col. 2
> [Lt. Isaac Newton Durboraw:] "I did not find many of the people in the neighborhood at their homes, and their houses were occupied by skulkers and shuysters absent from their commands. When I got back to the company I shared out the contents of my haversack, and when we marched that night, it was empty."
> -----

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  6 21:03:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:03:01 -0700
Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
Message-ID: 

Presumably as an honorific personification. Cf. "(Sir) John Barleycorn."

JL

"Joel S. Berson"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Joel S. Berson"
Subject: Re: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But why "Sir John"?

At 6/6/2005 12:35 PM, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: paulzjoh

>Subject: Re: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Possible shipping bottles in "straw jackets" to prevent breakage?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joel S. Berson"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 8:46 AM
>Subject: Sir John Straw-jacket, or Strawberry?
>
>
> > The expression "Been too free with Sir John Strawberry" is in Franklin's
> > "Drinkers Dictionary".
> >
> > I have come across the expression as "Been free with Sir John
> > Straw-Jacket". How might this -- or Franklin's version -- have arisen?
> >
> > What might "straw-jacket" mean? (I do not find it Googling, but I do not
> > have access to the databases others on this list seem to use.) Could it
> > have been a New England regionalism for "strawberry"?
> >
> > Joel
> >

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun  6 21:05:09 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:05:09 -0700
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
Message-ID: 

Google turns up a few dozen "shuyster"s,  as both surname and common noun.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's as bona fide as anything else you'd find in Newsbank's "Early
American Newspapers", I suppose.
"All I know is what I read in the papers . . . ."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:33 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
> Subject: Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> FWIW, I never came across the surname "Shuyster." Is this bona fide?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> * * * * *
>
> Original message from Bill Mullins, June 6, 2005:
> > The Pittsfield Sun.; Date: 1858-07-08; Vol: LVIII; Iss: 3016;
> > Page: [1];
> >
> > "Jacob Shuyster, alias Tom Ham, a notorious burglar, who
> some years since stole jewels, &c., from the Patent Office at
> Washington, was arrested at Bridgeport, Ct., on Monday, by
> officers from Philadelphia on a charge of making counterfeit coin."
> >
> >
> >
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Mon Jun  6 22:09:41 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:09:41 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42a37551.66e683d1.72d9.fffff0e0SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Jon, I don't think that there's anyone who knows anything about
lynching who thinks that a lynching can be only a hanging. Emmitt Till
wasn't hanged. In a famous lynching in Omaha, the lynchee was to a
railroad crosstie and burned alive. There was a lynching in Missouri
in which the lynchee was tied to the roof of a building, which was
then burned down around him. During the Waco Horror, the lynchee was
suspended by chains from a tree limb and roasted to death over a slow
fire. Don't underestimate American ingenuity.

-Wilson

On 6/5/05, Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> FWIW, "lynching" has never been restricted to hanging, though in modern usage that does seem to be the usual connotation.  Undoubtedly it's been influenced by innumerable movie lynchings of hoss and cattle thieves who are uniformly hanged by vigilantes.
>
> JL
>
> Laurence Horn  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Wilson Gray"
> >To:
> >Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
> >Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
> >>living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
> >>things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
> >>lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
> >>practice?
> >>-Wilson
> >
> >Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call lynching
> >of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
> >
> And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
> with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
> lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
> civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
> blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching (as
> opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
> voting registrations drives and freedom riding. I can't recall
> hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.
>
> Larry
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  6 23:49:27 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:49:27 EDT
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

In a message dated Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:03:56 -0400,  Wilson Gray
_hwgray at GMAIL.COM_ (mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM)
writes:

>Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the  average person on
>the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave  a
>Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line  by
>1967. Q.E.D.

Kermit Schafer, ed _Blooper Parade_ Greenwich CT: Fawcett Publications  Inc.,
1968, no ISBN.  The following appears on page 76 of the Fawcett Gold  Medal
paperback edition

DISC JOCKEY:  ". . . .and here now is another million seller sung by  popular
Uretha Franklin...Aretha

"Clearly" Kermit Schafer in 1968 expected his readers, the  majority of whom
were your "average person on the white street", to  recognize the name "Aretha
Franklin" instantly.  As for the TV show you  cite, well, Richard Head Esq.
shows up disproportianately often on major TV  networks, both then and now.

For what it is worth, I was invited to a "Motown Party" that was  thrown in
the mostly-white college dormitory I inhabited in 1966-67.

>a black male singer was quoted as saying that, if
>Tom  Jones could make a million dollars a year singing like a black
>man, then  a black man ought to be able to make $50,000 a year singing
>like himself.  Unfortunately, the man was living in a dream.

I don't know the relative chronologies of Jones and Elvis Presley, but I
recall reading that Presley was picked up by record promoters because he was "a
white man who sang like a [black man]".

> Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>lynching of  blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>practice?

I will challenge this statement.  While in high school (1959-65) I
conscientiously followed news about race relations, Segregation, Civil  RIghts, etc, in
the South.  During that period I recall reading of exactly  TWO lynchings,
one in 1963 and the other one earlier, both of which were  followed by ferocious
responses by the Federal government.  To the best of  my knowledge, these
were the last lynchings to occur in the United States.   If I am wrong, please be
specific.

This is an important matter.  In the 1960's there was a widespread  belief in
foreign countries that lynching was commonplace in the  US.  This belief,
true or not, had a significant impact on world-wide  reaction to the Vietnam War
(I need only cite Bertrand Russell, who stated in  writing what he thought was
occurring with respect to lynchings, as an  example.)

    - James A. Landau

From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun  6 23:50:22 2005
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:50:22 -0700
Subject: Query from Wired: "more cowbell"
Message-ID: 

I had this question from Mark Robinson, an editor at Wired. Can
anybody help with suggestions? Please copy your answer to
Mark_Robinson at wiredmag.com.

Geoff Nunberg

>  i was hoping you could give me some quick advice. we're doing a
>>  little item in the front of the magazine about the phrase "more
>>  cowbell." it has had a sudden resurgence in the last year or so. we
>>  wanted to trace that resurgence. (the term, as you may recall,
>>  originated in a hilarious saturday night live skit spoofing the
>>  creation of blue oyster cult's landmark song "don't fear the
>>  reaper.")
>>
>>  our theory on this is that, like ebola or bird flu, catch phrases
>>  from pop culture can go underground for years only to surface and
>>  suddenly explode into popularity. we were hoping to use "more
>>  cowbell" as an example. any suggestions on how to trace the sudden
>>  upsurge in usage?

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  7 00:40:01 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:40:01 -0700
Subject: Throwbacks
Message-ID: 

This word, meaning the opposite of keeper, is missing from the OED and AHD4.
Google reports 46,700 hits for

throwbacks fish

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  7 00:39:22 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:39:22 -0400
Subject: "Wait 'til next year!" (1938, at least, for Brooklyn Dodgers)
In-Reply-To: <5486.69.142.143.59.1118048622.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 03:33:21 -0400, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >http://www.barrypopik.com/article/980/wait-til-next-year-brooklyn-dodgers
> >...
> >Anybody got a "wait until next year," with/without the Brooklyn Dodgers?
> >I can't check the Sporting News on this computer.
>
> Washington Post, Sep 29, 1903, p. 8
> The Senators could do nothing in the next two innings.
> "Wait till next year."

Barry himself posted a citation ("Wait till next year") from Sporting
Life, 5 Nov. 1884, a few years ago.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun  7 00:57:00 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:57:00 -0400
Subject: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name
 =?utf-8?Q?=22Shuyster=22=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D76DBC0@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

Name spelling is notoriously fluid.  A familysearch.org search for last name
shuyster using Soundex presents 53 names in the 1880 US census and the
International Index including shuster, shister, shuister, and shyster.
Shister is the most common, by far.  But, there is, in fact, a Henry
Shuyster, married in 18 April 1849 in Morgan, Ohio. This must be Roger's
granddad, right?

Jim

Mullins, Bill writes:

> It's as bona fide as anything else you'd find in Newsbank's "Early
> American Newspapers", I suppose.
> "All I know is what I read in the papers . . . ."
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
>> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:33 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" 
>> Subject:      Re: Shuysters and Skinners (1845)--name "Shuyster"?
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------------
>>
>> FWIW, I never came across the surname "Shuyster." Is this bona fide?
>>
>> Gerald Cohen
>>
>>         * * * * *
>>
>> Original message from Bill Mullins, June 6, 2005:
>> > The Pittsfield Sun.;  Date: 1858-07-08;   Vol: LVIII;   Iss: 3016;
>> > Page: [1];
>> >
>> > "Jacob Shuyster, alias Tom Ham, a notorious burglar, who
>> some years since stole jewels, &c., from the Patent Office at
>> Washington, was arrested at Bridgeport, Ct., on Monday, by
>> officers from Philadelphia on a charge of making counterfeit coin."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun  7 02:04:56 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:04:56 -0400
Subject: Query from Wired: "more cowbell"
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:50:22 -0700, Geoffrey Nunberg
 wrote:

>I had this question from Mark Robinson, an editor at Wired. Can
>anybody help with suggestions? Please copy your answer to
>Mark_Robinson at wiredmag.com.
>
>>  i was hoping you could give me some quick advice. we're doing a
>>>  little item in the front of the magazine about the phrase "more
>>>  cowbell." it has had a sudden resurgence in the last year or so. we
>>>  wanted to trace that resurgence. (the term, as you may recall,
>>>  originated in a hilarious saturday night live skit spoofing the
>>>  creation of blue oyster cult's landmark song "don't fear the
>>>  reaper.")
>>>
>>>  our theory on this is that, like ebola or bird flu, catch phrases
>>>  from pop culture can go underground for years only to surface and
>>>  suddenly explode into popularity. we were hoping to use "more
>>>  cowbell" as an example. any suggestions on how to trace the sudden
>>>  upsurge in usage?

The SNL sketch has had something of a cult following ever since it
appeared in 2000, allowing Christopher Walken's "cowbell" lines to
continue to circulate among those in the know.  More recently, I think
ESPN might have had something to do with the renewed popularity.  One of
the SportsCenter anchors, Scott Van Pelt, has done the "cowbell" shtick
quite a lot lately, and Bill Simmons (aka "The Sports Guy") has a blog on
ESPN.com called "More Cowbell."  These are probably influential figures
for the young male demographic.

Like other catchphrases cultivated by the ESPN anchors, the "cowbell" bit
works because it has a certain modularity -- Van Pelt can apply it to just
about any sports context ("So-and-so's got a fever, and the only
prescription is more cowbell!" -- said in a Walkenesque manner).  Very
often these modular catchphrases become stale quite quickly (e.g, Steve
Berthiaume imitating Al Pacino in "Scarface" saying, "Say hello to my
little friend!"), but "More cowbell" seems to have real staying power.

(ADS-Lers who are unfamiliar with the SNL sketch can view it here:
.)

--Ben Zimmer

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  7 02:27:21 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:27:21 EDT
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
Message-ID: 

Where did this come from? When?
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_No-Layoff  Deal Hurts Substitute Teachers_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=115758316&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName
=HNP&TS=1118110314&clientId=65882)
ALICE CAREY.  New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar  23,
1991. p. 22 (1 page) :
I am a playwright who has counted on this day-to-day, yet fairly regular,
employment to earn a living. I won't discuss how hard ti is to earn a living in
the theater. And even though I have a play under option, my agent's words to
me  are, "Don't quit your day job."
...
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
    _Former  CEO Goes to Work for Ground Floor MLM Opportunity!_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/biz.general/browse_thread/thread/241f2499adc9ad29/753d
53ef927fdfc7?q="quit+you+|+y+|+y+|+y+day+|+da+|+d+|+d+job+|+j+|+j+|+j"&rnum=60
&hl=en#753d53ef927fdfc7)
... Within the first week, I had my first downline  representative. I firmly
believe
you can enjoy this type of success  too. But don't quit you day job--yet.
...
_biz.general_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/biz.general?hl=en)  -  Jul
1 1995, 4:34 pm  by InfinityML - 1 message - 1 author

...

   _putting_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.golf/browse_thread/thread/9c24c8c6aac920bb/866ef6856f0b9598?q="quit+you+|+y+|+y+|+y+day+|+da+|+d
+|+d+job+|+j+|+j+|+j"&rnum=61&hl=en#866ef6856f0b9598)
... Ahem....Attention Kmart shoppers! I have got new for you,  if you are
making putts
from 6-10 feet at 50%, you need to quit  you day job and go play golf. ...
_rec.sport.golf_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.golf?hl=en)
-  Mar 7 1994, 7:40 pm  by Mark Koenig - 6 messages - 6 authors
...

_Olympia  combat_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.pbm/browse_thread/thread/4a668bae102c048c/3855cbacb4b9f827?q="quit+you+|+y+|+y+|+y+day+|+da
+|+d+|+d+job+|+j+|+j+|+j"&rnum=62&hl=en#3855cbacb4b9f827)
... It makes sense to me. People will always  show up for good humour. So quit
you day  job and pursue a career as a stand up comic. Try ...
_rec.games.pbm_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.pbm?hl=en)  -
May 13 1992, 7:29 am  by Rich Skrenta - 70 messages - 18 authors
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQp69XcycHr1acf1xMmT5cwNEIF+CsZYmrz)  _Monday,
June 19, 1989_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)
_Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cityid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990)   _New  York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+
range:1753-1990)
...TO BE A but you better not QUIT YOUR  DAY JOB tions as the Syracuse New
Times..

...
_Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQp69XcycHr1acRwDGSLtxx40IF+CsZYmrz)  _Monday, June
19, 1989_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)  _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cit
yid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990)   _New  York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+range
:1753-1990)
...Seaberry but you better not QUIT YOUR  DAY JOB By Hart Seely Staff Writer
i  The..

...
_The Post Standard_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2nMyeqLCTfvIYD+2dnoH03v1gv6yqKNAikIF+CsZYmrz)  _Monday, January
14, 1985_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)   _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cityi
d:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990)   _New  York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1
753-1990)
...AD- WEEK offers this Don't QUIT YOUR  DAY JOB. product that no one wants
to..
Pg.  D5:
_ADWEEK Makes Its Nominations_
_For Worst '84 Print, Broadcast Ads_
(...)
And if Mr. (Calvin--ed.) Klein has decided he'd like to become  a fashion
model, ADWEEK offers this advice: Don't quit your day  job.

...
_Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQp69XcycHr1ad2ajAWBghic0IF+CsZYmrz)  _Monday, June
19, 1989_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)  _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cit
yid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990)   _New  York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+range
:1753-1990)   ...A but  you better not QUIT YOUR DAY JOB By Hart  Seely Staff
Writer  The..

From slangman at PACBELL.NET  Tue Jun  7 02:44:25 2005
From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:44:25 -0700
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
Message-ID: 

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>Where did this come from? When?
>
>

Lexis-Nexis takes us one year earlier:

People, May 7, 1984

Copyright 1984 Time Inc. All Rights Reserved
People

May 7, 1984

HEADLINE: Getting Their Money's Mirth

BYLINE: BY MICHAEL SMALL

BODY:
You may not hear it elsewhere, but truth be told, they're laughing down
on Wall Street. The U.S. financial capital has produced at least 54
jokers, all of them bankers and brokers by day who took the plunge for
laughs at the first Wall Street comedy contest. Sponsored by a watering
hole called the Compass Lounge, the event drew entrants from bullish
Merrill Lynch, outspoken E. F. Hutton and old-fashioned Smith Barney.
Henny Youngman helped pick the winner: John Goodlow, 31, a Citibank real
estate man. Goodlow took home $500 cash, 10,000 shares of "penny stock,"
which is worth $100 at most, and a plaque that reads "Don't Quit Your
Day Job." Naturally, Goodlow scored most of the yuks with a joke about a
bank. The Israeli Bank Leumi, he said, has strained its tellers to sound
like Jewish mothers. When you try to make a withdrawal, they respond,
"You never write. You never phone. You only come when you want money."

Tom Dalzell

>
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun  7 02:47:17 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:47:17 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:44:25 -0700, Tom Dalzell  wrote:

>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>Where did this come from? When?
>
>Lexis-Nexis takes us one year earlier:
>
>People, May 7, 1984
>
>Goodlow took home $500 cash, 10,000 shares of "penny stock,"
>which is worth $100 at most, and a plaque that reads "Don't Quit Your
>Day Job."

The bluegrass group The Country Gazette recorded an album in 1973 called
_Don't Give Up Your Day Job_.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:7qktk6jxlkrf

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun  7 02:53:22 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:53:22 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:47:17 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:44:25 -0700, Tom Dalzell  wrote:
>
>>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>>Where did this come from? When?
>>
>>Lexis-Nexis takes us one year earlier:
>>
>>People, May 7, 1984
>>
>>Goodlow took home $500 cash, 10,000 shares of "penny stock,"
>>which is worth $100 at most, and a plaque that reads "Don't Quit Your
>>Day Job."
>
>The bluegrass group The Country Gazette recorded an album in 1973 called
>_Don't Give Up Your Day Job_.
>
>http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:7qktk6jxlkrf

And slightly earlier than that:

-----
"In the Wake of the News" by David Condon
Chicago Tribune, Apr 22, 1972, p. A3
Arthur Rubioff also appeared in the production and could be nominated for
"best costume." Way to go Arthur, but don't give up your day job.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun  7 08:15:27 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:15:27 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
In-Reply-To: <20844.69.142.143.59.1118112802.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:47:17 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:
>
>The bluegrass group The Country Gazette recorded an album in 1973 called
>_Don't Give Up Your Day Job_.
>
>http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:7qktk6jxlkrf

Indeed, this is the first quote at the OED's entry. But thanks
for the '72 antedating.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Jun  7 09:24:57 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:24:57 +0100
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
In-Reply-To: <1d8.3e5b1c0c.2fd66009@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

The British broadcaster Terry Wogan was using this back in the 1970s
(if not earlier) as a sarcastic comment on a band whose performance
he though inadequate. His formulation was "Don't give up the day
job".

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  7 12:22:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:22:17 -0700
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
Message-ID: 

Correctly or wildly otherwise, I associate this with the show "A Chorus Line" (1983?).

That's about the time I first heard it, anyway.

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where did this come from? When?
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_No-Layoff Deal Hurts Substitute Teachers_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=115758316&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName
=HNP&TS=1118110314&clientId=65882)
ALICE CAREY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 23,
1991. p. 22 (1 page) :
I am a playwright who has counted on this day-to-day, yet fairly regular,
employment to earn a living. I won't discuss how hard ti is to earn a living in
the theater. And even though I have a play under option, my agent's words to
me are, "Don't quit your day job."
...
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
_Former CEO Goes to Work for Ground Floor MLM Opportunity!_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/biz.general/browse_thread/thread/241f2499adc9ad29/753d
53ef927fdfc7?q="quit+you+|+y+|+y+|+y+day+|+da+|+d+|+d+job+|+j+|+j+|+j"&rnum=60
&hl=en#753d53ef927fdfc7)
... Within the first week, I had my first downline representative. I firmly
believe
you can enjoy this type of success too. But don't quit you day job--yet.
...
_biz.general_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/biz.general?hl=en) - Jul
1 1995, 4:34 pm by InfinityML - 1 message - 1 author

...

_putting_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.golf/browse_thread/thread/9c24c8c6aac920bb/866ef6856f0b9598?q="quit+you+|+y+|+y+|+y+day+|+da+|+d
+|+d+job+|+j+|+j+|+j"&rnum=61&hl=en#866ef6856f0b9598)
... Ahem....Attention Kmart shoppers! I have got new for you, if you are
making putts
from 6-10 feet at 50%, you need to quit you day job and go play golf. ...
_rec.sport.golf_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.golf?hl=en)
- Mar 7 1994, 7:40 pm by Mark Koenig - 6 messages - 6 authors
...

_Olympia combat_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.pbm/browse_thread/thread/4a668bae102c048c/3855cbacb4b9f827?q="quit+you+|+y+|+y+|+y+day+|+da
+|+d+|+d+job+|+j+|+j+|+j"&rnum=62&hl=en#3855cbacb4b9f827)
... It makes sense to me. People will always show up for good humour. So quit
you day job and pursue a career as a stand up comic. Try ...
_rec.games.pbm_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.pbm?hl=en) -
May 13 1992, 7:29 am by Rich Skrenta - 70 messages - 18 authors
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
_Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQp69XcycHr1acf1xMmT5cwNEIF+CsZYmrz) _Monday,
June 19, 1989_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)
_Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cityid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990) _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+
range:1753-1990)
...TO BE A but you better not QUIT YOUR DAY JOB tions as the Syracuse New
Times..

...
_Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQp69XcycHr1acRwDGSLtxx40IF+CsZYmrz) _Monday, June
19, 1989_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=) _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cit
yid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990) _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+range
:1753-1990)
...Seaberry but you better not QUIT YOUR DAY JOB By Hart Seely Staff Writer
i The..

...
_The Post Standard_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2nMyeqLCTfvIYD+2dnoH03v1gv6yqKNAikIF+CsZYmrz) _Monday, January
14, 1985_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=) _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cityi
d:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990) _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1
753-1990)
...AD- WEEK offers this Don't QUIT YOUR DAY JOB. product that no one wants
to..
Pg. D5:
_ADWEEK Makes Its Nominations_
_For Worst '84 Print, Broadcast Ads_
(...)
And if Mr. (Calvin--ed.) Klein has decided he'd like to become a fashion
model, ADWEEK offers this advice: Don't quit your day job.

...
_Syracuse Herald Journal_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQp69XcycHr1ad2ajAWBghic0IF+CsZYmrz) _Monday, June
19, 1989_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=) _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+cit
yid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1990) _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="quit+your+day+job"+AND+stateid:67+AND+range
:1753-1990) ...A but you better not QUIT YOUR DAY JOB By Hart Seely Staff
Writer The..

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  7 12:35:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:35:35 -0700
Subject: "That's life (in the big city / in the swamp) !
Message-ID: 

"That's life !" has been an ironic observation for decades in the face of reversal.  About twenty years ago I first heard the more sardonic elaboration "That's life in the big city !"  Not much later I heard the yet more cynical "That's life in the swamp !"

Do we have "firsts" for these ?

Google shows about 2000 hits for "...big city" but, incredibly, only TWO for "...in the swamp."
Am I really one of the super-elite for using this phrase regularly, or is it more widespread than Google might suggest?

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  7 12:53:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:53:01 -0700
Subject: "scuzzcrack"
Message-ID: 

The more slangophilous amongst ye may remember that I selected this evident neologism from the TV series "Joan of Arcadia" last fall for attention as a test case for the spread of slang.  Millions of people were exposed to it, presumably for the first time, in one episode of the series.

I now see the first indication, however slight, of the term's entrance into "the language.". On February 11, a fan messaged the "Joan of Arcadia" website http://joanofarcadia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2589 to observe,

"That is why Roger is a scuzzcrack."

To which someone responded (http://joanofarcadia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2706)

"Yeah, Roger did not want to take no for ananswer. Too bad the scuzzcrack was associated with all that cool poetry."

These are the first online occurrences of the word except for its appearance in a transcription of the original script.

Despite frequent dire temptation, I have carefully avoided using the word myself, so as not to inadvertently encourage its spread.  List members are urged to exercise similar restraint.

More updates as they become available.

JL

---------------------------------
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 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun  7 13:32:34 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:32:34 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <44774u$2qf41r@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett 
> Subject:      Half-orphan
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This word, suggested by Wayne Leman on the lexicography list is
> missing from
> the OED and AHD. It means a child who has lost one parent.
>
> Benjamin Barrett
> Baking the World a Better Place
> www.hiroki.us
>

Being a half-orphan myself, I'm surprised, indeed, shocked to see that
neither the AHD nor the OED has the word. Sigh! The only thing worse
than failing to be the first to post a "new" word is posting a "new"
word and discovering that it can be traced to Beowulf.

-Wilson Gray

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun  7 14:28:15 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:28:15 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42ftum$2ldvdg@mx23.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 5, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> FWIW, "lynching" has never been restricted to hanging, though in
> modern usage that does seem to be the usual connotation.  Undoubtedly
> it's been influenced by innumerable movie lynchings of hoss and cattle
> thieves who are uniformly hanged by vigilantes.
>
> JL
>
> Laurence Horn  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Wilson Gray"
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>>> living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way
>>> that
>>> things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>>> lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>>> practice?
>>> -Wilson
>>
>> Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call
>> lynching
>> of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>>
> And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
> with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
> lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
> civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
> blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching (as
> opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
> voting registrations drives and freedom riding. I can't recall
> hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.
>
> Larry
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun  7 14:33:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:33:32 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <431ffh$2veca5@mx01.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Uh, I'm not sure what I did to cause this to happen. But, in any case,
my apologies.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 7, 2005, at 10:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Wilson Gray 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 5, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
>> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> FWIW, "lynching" has never been restricted to hanging, though in
>> modern usage that does seem to be the usual connotation.  Undoubtedly
>> it's been influenced by innumerable movie lynchings of hoss and cattle
>> thieves who are uniformly hanged by vigilantes.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Laurence Horn  wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Wilson Gray"
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>>>> living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way
>>>> that
>>>> things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>>>> lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>>>> practice?
>>>> -Wilson
>>>
>>> Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call
>>> lynching
>>> of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>>>
>> And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
>> with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
>> lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
>> civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
>> blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching (as
>> opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
>> voting registrations drives and freedom riding. I can't recall
>> hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  7 14:34:28 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:34:28 EDT
Subject: Pride Parade (does OED have "pride"?)
Message-ID: 

_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/978/gay-pride-week-lesbian-gay-bisexual-tra
nsgender-pride-march-moment-of-silence_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/978/gay-pride-week-lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-pride-march-moment-of-silence
)
...
What's the OED entry going to be like for "pride"?
...
"Pride Parade" usually implies "Gay Pride Parade," although in New York  it's
technically a march, not a parade.
...
Am I looking at the wrong place in Wikipedia, or does it really credit
Toronto for "Gay Pride Week"??

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun  7 15:46:47 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:46:47 -0500
Subject: "scuzzcrack"
Message-ID: 

"scuzzcrack" doesn't show in Newspaperarchive, Proquest, Newsbank,
Factiva, EbscoHost, or Lexis.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:53 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "scuzzcrack"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      "scuzzcrack"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> The more slangophilous amongst ye may remember that I
> selected this evident neologism from the TV series "Joan of
> Arcadia" last fall for attention as a test case for the
> spread of slang.  Millions of people were exposed to it,
> presumably for the first time, in one episode of the series.
>
> I now see the first indication, however slight, of the term's
> entrance into "the language.". On February 11, a fan messaged
> the "Joan of Arcadia" website
> http://joanofarcadia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2589 to observe,
>
> "That is why Roger is a scuzzcrack."
>
> To which someone responded
> (http://joanofarcadia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2706)
>
> "Yeah, Roger did not want to take no for ananswer. Too bad
> the scuzzcrack was associated with all that cool poetry."
>
> These are the first online occurrences of the word except for
> its appearance in a transcription of the original script.
>
> Despite frequent dire temptation, I have carefully avoided
> using the word myself, so as not to inadvertently encourage
> its spread.  List members are urged to exercise similar restraint.
>
> More updates as they become available.
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
>  Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jun  7 16:10:26 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:10:26 +0200
Subject: Sometimes the accent has to go...
Message-ID: 

"Remember poor Audrey Hepburn as Eliza Doolittle, gnashing and wailing her
way through My Fair Lady as she struggled mightily to rid herself of a
Cockney accent that was holding her back from her chosen field of endeavor?
The same drama is happening daily all over town as performers, certain that
their dialect-rich approach to the English language is working against them
at auditions, undertake the process of stripping their speech patterns of
anything that would label them as being from a particular region or
nation..." More here:

http://www.backstage.com/backstage/features/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_
id=1000946984

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  7 17:07:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:07:46 -0700
Subject: eggcorn: "running the gambit"
Message-ID: 

This has been in the eggcorn database for a while, but a spokesperson for the California Highway Patrol has just pointed out (on the Fox News Channel) that the outcomes of hot pursuits "run the gambit" from violence to peaceable surrender.

Naturally, Google reveals over 10,000 hits for "run / runs / running / ran the gambit."

JL

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From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  7 17:53:27 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:53:27 -0700
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <200506070932.1dFEcg7sZ3Nl34a2@mx-herron.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

I'd never heard of the word, but since I have three parents, can I be a
three-half foundling? BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>
> On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> >
> > This word, suggested by Wayne Leman on the lexicography list is
> > missing from the OED and AHD. It means a child who has lost one
> > parent.
> >
> Being a half-orphan myself, I'm surprised, indeed, shocked to
> see that neither the AHD nor the OED has the word. Sigh! The
> only thing worse than failing to be the first to post a "new"
> word is posting a "new"
> word and discovering that it can be traced to Beowulf.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun  7 18:34:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:34:32 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:32:34 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>> This word, suggested by Wayne Leman on the lexicography list is missing
>> from the OED and AHD. It means a child who has lost one parent.
>
>Being a half-orphan myself, I'm surprised, indeed, shocked to see that
>neither the AHD nor the OED has the word. Sigh! The only thing worse
>than failing to be the first to post a "new" word is posting a "new"
>word and discovering that it can be traced to Beowulf.

It is indeed a curious oversight, considering that the databases have
numerous attestations back to the mid-19th century. Here's the earliest
from APS:

-----
_The Friend_, Feb. 3, 1838, p. 143, col. 3
First Annual Report of the [New York] Association for the Benefit of
Coloured Orphans.
...
The number of orphans has been gradually increased, and the managers now
have it in their power to congratulate their benefactors on having
extended their fostering care to twenty-nine destitute children. Several
of this number are half-orphans, who have been admitted on the same terms
required in the Half-Orphan Asylum.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun  7 18:50:43 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:50:43 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:34:32 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>It is indeed a curious oversight, considering that the databases have
>numerous attestations back to the mid-19th century. Here's the earliest
>from APS:
>
>-----
>_The Friend_, Feb. 3, 1838, p. 143, col. 3
>First Annual Report of the [New York] Association for the Benefit of
>Coloured Orphans.
>...
>The number of orphans has been gradually increased, and the managers now
>have it in their power to congratulate their benefactors on having
>extended their fostering care to twenty-nine destitute children. Several
>of this number are half-orphans, who have been admitted on the same terms
>required in the Half-Orphan Asylum.
>-----

And the participial adjective "half-orphaned" goes back even earlier:

-----
http://digital.lib.ucdavis.edu/projects/bwrp/Works/SmitCBeach.htm
Charlotte [Turner] Smith, "The Truant Dove, From Pilpay"
in _Beachy Head: With Other Poems_ (London, 1807)

Then to her cold and widow'd bed she crept,
Clasp'd her half-orphan'd young, and wept!
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  7 20:07:47 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:07:47 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <82745f6305060615092157cc6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

>Jon, I don't think that there's anyone who knows anything about
>lynching who thinks that a lynching can be only a hanging. Emmitt Till
>wasn't hanged. In a famous lynching in Omaha, the lynchee was to a
>railroad crosstie and burned alive. There was a lynching in Missouri
>in which the lynchee was tied to the roof of a building, which was
>then burned down around him. During the Waco Horror, the lynchee was
>suspended by chains from a tree limb and roasted to death over a slow
>fire. Don't underestimate American ingenuity.
>
>-Wilson

But did any of these involve cases in which someone was pulled over,
thrown into a car or whatever, and taken to their place of execution?
The prototype instance of lynching (or so this would be suggested
from e.g. the very powerful displays of photographs documenting
lynching that traveled around to different museums recently) seem to
involve kidnapping someone from official custody and/or hanging, if
not both, rather than (as with Liuzzo and Chaney/Goodman/Schwerner)
seizing someone who was at liberty and executing them, even when the
reason has to do with racism.  Otherwise, what *is* the definition?
*Any* murder by vigilantes motivated by racism or religious
prejudice?  (The AHD entry does specify "especially by hanging",
FWIW.)  For example, did that fairly recent instance in which an
African-American man was picked out at random by some white racists
who dragged him to his death with their truck count as a lynching?
Or do the perpetrators have to be motivated by the belief that
society *ought* to put someone to death but won't, so they have to
take the law into their own hands?  Maybe this is really another case
of lexical prototypes.

Larry

>On 6/5/05, Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>  Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
>>  Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  FWIW, "lynching" has never been restricted to hanging, though in
>>modern usage that does seem to be the usual connotation.
>>Undoubtedly it's been influenced by innumerable movie lynchings of
>>hoss and cattle thieves who are uniformly hanged by vigilantes.
>>
>>  JL
>>
>>  Laurence Horn  wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  Poster: Laurence Horn
>>  Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
>>  >----- Original Message -----
>>  >From: "Wilson Gray"
>>  >To:
>>  >Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>>  >Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >>Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>>  >>living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
>>  >>things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>>  >>lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>>  >>practice?
>>  >>-Wilson
>>  >
>>  >Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly
>>call lynching
>>  >of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>>  >
>>  And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
>>  with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
>>  lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another murdered
>>  civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
>>  blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching (as
>>  opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
>>  voting registrations drives and freedom riding. I can't recall
>>  hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.
>>
>>  Larry
>>
>>  __________________________________________________
>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>  Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>  > http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>--
>-Wilson Gray

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  7 21:01:41 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:01:41 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <22102.69.142.143.59.1118170243.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 2:50 PM -0400 6/7/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:34:32 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
> wrote:
>
>>It is indeed a curious oversight, considering that the databases have
>>numerous attestations back to the mid-19th century. Here's the earliest
>>from APS:
>>
>>-----
>>_The Friend_, Feb. 3, 1838, p. 143, col. 3
>>First Annual Report of the [New York] Association for the Benefit of
>>Coloured Orphans.
>>...
>>The number of orphans has been gradually increased, and the managers now
>>have it in their power to congratulate their benefactors on having
>>extended their fostering care to twenty-nine destitute children. Several
>>of this number are half-orphans, who have been admitted on the same terms
>>required in the Half-Orphan Asylum.
>>-----
>
>And the participial adjective "half-orphaned" goes back even earlier:
>
>-----
>http://digital.lib.ucdavis.edu/projects/bwrp/Works/SmitCBeach.htm
>Charlotte [Turner] Smith, "The Truant Dove, From Pilpay"
>in _Beachy Head: With Other Poems_ (London, 1807)
>
>Then to her cold and widow'd bed she crept,
>Clasp'd her half-orphan'd young, and wept!
>-----
Couldn't the absence of "half-orphan" and "half-orphaned" from
dictionaries be attributable largely to the productivity of the
formation process and transparency of its results?  I wouldn't expect
"half-eaten" to get its own entry, for example, or "two-buttoned".

Larry

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun  7 21:20:28 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:20:28 -0700
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <200506071701.1dFLcF1ZS3Nl34c0@mx-stork.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

That seems like an oversight as well, then. The meaning of half-orphan
wasn't transparent to me when I saw it today. I was right in my guess at its
meaning, but I wasn't confident till I saw it defined.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn

> Couldn't the absence of "half-orphan" and "half-orphaned"
> from dictionaries be attributable largely to the productivity
> of the formation process and transparency of its results?  I
> wouldn't expect "half-eaten" to get its own entry, for
> example, or "two-buttoned".

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Jun  7 22:25:03 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:25:03 -0700
Subject: Half-orphan
Message-ID: 

This is a most curious term.  I had always thought an orphan was a person who had lost at least ONE parent, but not necessarily both. Therefore, half-orphan is superfluous for me.
Fritz J

>>> gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM 06/07/05 02:20PM >>>
That seems like an oversight as well, then. The meaning of half-orphan
wasn't transparent to me when I saw it today. I was right in my guess at its
meaning, but I wasn't confident till I saw it defined.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn

> Couldn't the absence of "half-orphan" and "half-orphaned"
> from dictionaries be attributable largely to the productivity
> of the formation process and transparency of its results?  I
> wouldn't expect "half-eaten" to get its own entry, for
> example, or "two-buttoned".

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun  7 22:57:49 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:57:49 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>This is a most curious term.  I had always thought an orphan was a person
>who had lost at least ONE parent, but not necessarily both. Therefore,
>half-orphan is superfluous for me.
>Fritz J
>
>>>> gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM 06/07/05 02:20PM >>>
>That seems like an oversight as well, then. The meaning of half-orphan
>wasn't transparent to me when I saw it today. I was right in my guess at its
>meaning, but I wasn't confident till I saw it defined.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>
>> Couldn't the absence of "half-orphan" and "half-orphaned"
>> from dictionaries be attributable largely to the productivity
>> of the formation process and transparency of its results?  I
>> wouldn't expect "half-eaten" to get its own entry, for
>> example, or "two-buttoned".
~~~~~~~~~~
This makes sense to me.  My own understanding of "orphan" is a minor child
both of whose parents are dead (not merely absent).
A. Murie

From zimman at SFSU.EDU  Tue Jun  7 23:10:43 2005
From: zimman at SFSU.EDU (Lal Zimman)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:10:43 -0700
Subject: Query from Wired: "more cowbell"
In-Reply-To: <200506062350.j56NoYl4009695@mailgw1.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: 

I think the upsurge is in part due to Will Ferrell's increase in
popularity among a larger audience (including non-SNL watchers)
beginning with the 2003 movie Old School. These new fans already like
Ferrell and are exposed to his SNL sketches in syndication. It's Walken
who says the line, but Ferrell is a big part of why that sketch was so
funny to begin with.

-Lal

Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:
> I had this question from Mark Robinson, an editor at Wired. Can
> anybody help with suggestions? Please copy your answer to
> Mark_Robinson at wiredmag.com.
>
> Geoff Nunberg
>
>
>
>> i was hoping you could give me some quick advice. we're doing a
>>
>>> little item in the front of the magazine about the phrase "more
>>> cowbell." it has had a sudden resurgence in the last year or so. we
>>> wanted to trace that resurgence. (the term, as you may recall,
>>> originated in a hilarious saturday night live skit spoofing the
>>> creation of blue oyster cult's landmark song "don't fear the
>>> reaper.")
>>>
>>> our theory on this is that, like ebola or bird flu, catch phrases
>>> from pop culture can go underground for years only to surface and
>>> suddenly explode into popularity. we were hoping to use "more
>>> cowbell" as an example. any suggestions on how to trace the sudden
>>> upsurge in usage?
>
>
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  7 23:46:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:46:01 -0700
Subject: Half-orphan
Message-ID: 

Late 19th C. Irish-American broadside ballad, "The Flying Cloud" :

"We ran and fought with many a ship down on the Spanish Main,
Killed many a man and left his wife and orphans to remain...."

That cite isn't in OED, which, by the way, allows that only one of an "orphan's" parents may be dead, but says that this usage is rare. None of the early citations seem to apply unequivocally to this sort of case.

It is (or used to be) possible to be an "orphan" in an "orphanage" if one parent were still alive but incapable of caring for the child.

Perh. there's more in EDD, but I don't have one handy.

JL

sagehen  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: Half-orphan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This is a most curious term. I had always thought an orphan was a person
>who had lost at least ONE parent, but not necessarily both. Therefore,
>half-orphan is superfluous for me.
>Fritz J
>
>>>> gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM 06/07/05 02:20PM >>>
>That seems like an oversight as well, then. The meaning of half-orphan
>wasn't transparent to me when I saw it today. I was right in my guess at its
>meaning, but I wasn't confident till I saw it defined.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>
>> Couldn't the absence of "half-orphan" and "half-orphaned"
>> from dictionaries be attributable largely to the productivity
>> of the formation process and transparency of its results? I
>> wouldn't expect "half-eaten" to get its own entry, for
>> example, or "two-buttoned".
~~~~~~~~~~
This makes sense to me. My own understanding of "orphan" is a minor child
both of whose parents are dead (not merely absent).
A. Murie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  8 01:08:24 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:08:24 -0700
Subject: "doggy-dog"
Message-ID: 

The current ubiquity of "a doggy-dog world" is perhaps related to publicity for fo-shizzle rappizzle Snoop Dogg (formerly "Snoop Doggy Dogg"), as here:

2005 _XXL_ (June) 30 "Man, it's about time Snoop D-O-Double-G got his props ['credit or recognition']....It's a doggy-dog world."

JL

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 01:10:23 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:10:23 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
In-Reply-To: <42A575F9.29851.77A555@localhost>
Message-ID: 

At 10:24 AM +0100 6/7/05, Michael Quinion wrote:
>The British broadcaster Terry Wogan was using this back in the 1970s
>(if not earlier) as a sarcastic comment on a band whose performance
>he though inadequate. His formulation was "Don't give up the day
>job".
>
I don't remember when I first began hearing this regularly, but my
impression is that it was usually used for those who dabble in music.
(The U.S. versions usually did have the possessive rather than
definite article, as earlier cites here suggest.)

Larry

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun  8 01:55:21 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:55:21 -0400
Subject: "doggy-dog"
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:08:24 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>The current ubiquity of "a doggy-dog world" is perhaps related to publicity
>for fo-shizzle rappizzle Snoop Dogg (formerly "Snoop Doggy Dogg"), as here:
>
>2005 _XXL_ (June) 30 "Man, it's about time Snoop D-O-Double-G got his props
>['credit or recognition']....It's a doggy-dog world."

Snoop's repeating himself... his 1993 debut album, _Doggystyle_, had a
song called "Doggy Dogg World".  See the Eggcorn Database entry for a link
to the lyrics: .

--Ben Zimmer

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 02:49:18 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:49:18 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <20050607234601.96695.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

If a woman in a polyandrist society (or one simply practicing bigamy
in ours) has one of her two husbands die, does she become a
half-widow?

--Larry, who of course is equally concerned about semi-widowers

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jun  8 11:25:25 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:25:25 +0200
Subject: New linguistics portal
Message-ID: 

http://inttranews.inttra.net/cgi-bin/home.cgi?langues=eng&phase=1

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun  8 03:27:01 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:27:01 -0500
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>  >This is a most curious term.  I had always thought an orphan was a person
>>who had lost at least ONE parent, but not necessarily both. Therefore,
>>half-orphan is superfluous for me.
>>Fritz J
>>
>>>>>  gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM 06/07/05 02:20PM >>>
>>That seems like an oversight as well, then. The meaning of half-orphan
>>wasn't transparent to me when I saw it today. I was right in my guess at its
>>meaning, but I wasn't confident till I saw it defined.
>>
>>Benjamin Barrett
>>Baking the World a Better Place
>>www.hiroki.us
>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>>
>>>  Couldn't the absence of "half-orphan" and "half-orphaned"
>>>  from dictionaries be attributable largely to the productivity
>>>  of the formation process and transparency of its results?  I
>>>  wouldn't expect "half-eaten" to get its own entry, for
>>>  example, or "two-buttoned".
>~~~~~~~~~~
>This makes sense to me.  My own understanding of "orphan" is a minor child
>both of whose parents are dead (not merely absent).
>A. Murie

Yes. The minor child part is especially important for my
understanding of "orphan"--which I why I do not think of myself as a
half-orphan (despite the loss of my father in January) or of my
mother as an orphan.

Barbara

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun  8 14:19:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:19:53 -0400
Subject: "Nobody doesn't like Sarah Lee"
Message-ID: 

Heard on today's Maury Povich Show, spoken by a woman who'd had a
complete makeover: "Nobody doesn't want to be with me, now!"

-Wilson Gray

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 14:37:46 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:37:46 -0400
Subject: As best as...
Message-ID: 

"As best" is an odd enough idiom, but "as best as" is beyond odd, to my ear
(though heard often enough).  I wonder if the existence of the word
/asbestos/ has somehow contributed to it....?
This was brought to mind by hearing, just now on NPR's Connection, Dick
Gordon's use of it.
A. Murie

From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun  8 14:36:08 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:36:08 -0400
Subject: "Nobody doesn't like Sarah Lee"
In-Reply-To: <720ea010f7f4feed0b4a7611670bf865@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

Perfectly standard multiple negation; now, if she had said "Doesn't
nobody want to be...." that would have been a complete makeover of
another sort.

dInIs

>Heard on today's Maury Povich Show, spoken by a woman who'd had a
>complete makeover: "Nobody doesn't want to be with me, now!"
>
>-Wilson Gray

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 14:58:51 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:58:51 -0400
Subject: Crosspost fwd: those wayward negs
Message-ID: 

[an "Asbo" or "ASBO" is evidently a Anti-Social Behaviour Order; cf.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/asbocont.html#Preface.]

--- begin forwarded text

Date:         Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:21:12 +0100
Reply-To: Rowin Young 
Sender: The discussion list for Language and the Law

From: Rowin Young 

From 'Funny Old World', Private Eye, 27 May 2005

"My client admits that he was drunk when he created a disturbance at
Weymouth Bay Caravan Park," defending solicitor Roger Maxwell told
Weymouth Magistrates Court.  "He admits that he used threatening
words and behaviour, he admits to shouting and banging on caravan
doors, and he admits to swearing at the police when they handcuffed
him.  It is also true that he is already the subject of a two-year
anti-social behaviour order.  But in mitigation, I should point out
that, due to an administrative error, the wording on the Asbo
specifically states that he is 'prohibited from not being drunk in a
public place'."

After consultation with his fellow magistrates, Chairman of the bench
Colin Weston passed judgement on thirty-eight-year-old Stephen
Winstone.  "It is fortunate for you that the Asbo has been badly
written, because otherwise we would have been looking to sentence you
to prison for up to a couple of years.  However, you were technically
fulfilling the terms of your Asbo by being drunk in public, so the
court will show leniency to you.  You are fined ?100."  (Dorset Echo,
17/3/05.  Spotter: Sue Webb).

Dr Rowin Young
Alexander Turnbull Building
University of Strathclyde
155 George Street
Glasgow G1 1RD

--- end forwarded text

The real question is whether such an order can be used to prosecute
someone found publicly sober...

larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 15:17:01 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:17:01 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
Message-ID: 

We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
"anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
_Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.

Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
audiotape of the book:

"She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
day."

"Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
off the internet"

I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
or I'd have noticed.

Larry

From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun  8 15:25:20 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:25:20 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Southern Southern Illinois (the bottom 1/4 to 1/3) is too Southern to
be in the heart of positive anymore land, especially the fronted
examples.

dInIs

>We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
>on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
>anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
>the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
>Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
>associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
>struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
>"anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
>_Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.
>
>Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
>audiotape of the book:
>
>"She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
>the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
>day."
>
>"Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
>off the internet"
>
>I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
>degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
>as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
>1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
>and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
>of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
>partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
>1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
>somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
>Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
>never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
>the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
>characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
>libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
>such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
>character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
>Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
>colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
>or I'd have noticed.
>
>Larry

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 15:41:58 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:41:58 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Larry writes:
>We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
>on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
>anymore, or even the midwest more generally.
~>~>~>~>
Is it supposed to be a midwesternism?  I was startled by it the first time
I ever heard it after moving to the Pac NW from the midwest.  Admittedly,
most of my experience had been either urban or suburban in NE & IL.
I don't think I've heard it much in the thirty years we've lived up here in
far northern NY.
AM

From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 15:42:46 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:42:46 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Laurence Horn wrote:
> We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
> on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
> anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
> the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
> Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
> associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
> struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
> "anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
> _Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.
>
> Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
> audiotape of the book:
>
> "She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
> the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
> day."
>
> "Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
> off the internet"
>
> I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
> degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
> as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
> 1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
> and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
> of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
> partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
> 1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
> somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
> Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
> never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
> the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
> characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
> libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
> such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
> character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
> Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
> colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
> or I'd have noticed.

The Hudson Valley would count both as Upstate NY and positive anymore
country. (Certainly, Columbia and Greene Counties would, and possibly
neighboring counties like Duchess, Renselear (sp?) and Ulster, as well.)

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                    faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                        fax (203) 865-8963

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 15:59:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:59:16 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Southern Southern Illinois (the bottom 1/4 to 1/3) is too Southern to
>be in the heart of positive anymore land, especially the fronted
>examples.
>
>dInIs

Hmmm... But wouldn't Carbondale host a bevy of students from
[Northern-or- Mid-]Southern Illinois who would have fronted?

L

>
>>We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
>>on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
>>anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
>>the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
>>Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
>>associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
>>struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
>>"anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
>>_Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.
>>
>>Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
>>audiotape of the book:
>>
>>"She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
>>the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
>>day."
>>
>>"Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
>>off the internet"
>>
>>I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
>>degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
>>as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
>>1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
>>and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
>>of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
>>partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
>>1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
>>somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
>>Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
>>never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
>>the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
>>characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
>>libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
>>such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
>>character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
>>Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
>>colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
>>or I'd have noticed.
>>
>>Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>        Asian and African Languages
>Wells Hall A-740
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office: (517) 353-0740
>Fax: (517) 432-2736

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:02:32 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:02:32 -0400
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <20050608040221.A3A02B24D8@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Fritz wrote:

> This is a most curious term.  I had always thought an orphan was a person
> who had lost at least ONE parent, but not necessarily both. Therefore,
> half-orphan is superfluous for me.

Sagehen replied:
> This makes sense to me.  My own understanding of "orphan" is a minor child
> both of whose parents are dead (not merely absent).

My sense of the word is the same as hers.

I remember being quite surprised at the definition of the Esperanto word
"orfo" in either the authoritative Plena Vortaro or its successor, the
Plena Ilustrita Vortaro, which was equivalent to this "half-orphan". Fritz,
are you possibly being influenced by another language, such as wherever
Zamenhof took the definition of "orfo" from?

OED Online says:

A person, esp. a child, both of whose parents are dead (or, rarely, one of
whose parents has died). In extended use: an abandoned or neglected child.

Merriam-Webster Online has:

a child deprived by death of one or usually both parents

-- mark mandel

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 16:03:51 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:03:51 -0700
Subject: Half-orphan
In-Reply-To: <200506081016.1dG1mu3Js3Nl3490@mx-nebolish.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

That was the definition of orphan for me until my mother exclaimed she
wasn't ready to become an orphan when her mother passed away. BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barbara Need

> Yes. The minor child part is especially important for my
> understanding of "orphan"--which I why I do not think of
> myself as a half-orphan (despite the loss of my father in
> January) or of my mother as an orphan.

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:09:20 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:09:20 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
In-Reply-To: <20050608040221.A3A02B24D8@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

There is, or was, a band called The Don't Quit Your Day Job Players. (See,
e.g., http://www.sff.net/people/Steve.Miller/players.htm; but the band's
own URL mentioned there has been grabbed by a porn site.)

--mark mandel

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:12:20 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:12:20 -0700
Subject: What is this?
Message-ID: 

>>From an internal memo here at Linfield:

"Because they can't review the credentials of the successful hire, they are
putting a lot of eggs on the quality of the consultant."

This isn't a blend of two idioms, like "horse of a different feather" (a
usage beloved of the mother of a childhood friend of mine).  Rather, it's
an incomplete one, which renders it comical.

Is there a technical term for this, does anybody know?

Peter M.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:19:16 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:19:16 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Perhaps at least a half-bevy.

dInIs

>>Southern Southern Illinois (the bottom 1/4 to 1/3) is too Southern to
>>be in the heart of positive anymore land, especially the fronted
>>examples.
>>
>>dInIs
>
>Hmmm... But wouldn't Carbondale host a bevy of students from
>[Northern-or- Mid-]Southern Illinois who would have fronted?
>
>L
>
>>
>>>We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
>>>on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
>>>anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
>>>the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
>>>Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
>>>associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
>>>struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
>>>"anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
>>>_Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.
>>>
>>>Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
>>>audiotape of the book:
>>>
>>>"She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
>>>the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
>>>day."
>>>
>>>"Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
>>>off the internet"
>>>
>>>I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
>>>degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
>>>as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
>>>1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
>>>and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
>>>of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
>>>partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
>>>1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
>>>somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
>>>Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
>>>never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
>>>the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
>>>characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
>>>libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
>>>such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
>>>character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
>>>Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
>>>colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
>>>or I'd have noticed.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>>        Asian and African Languages
>>Wells Hall A-740
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>Office: (517) 353-0740
>>Fax: (517) 432-2736

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:24:19 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:24:19 -0700
Subject: As best as...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:37 AM, Alison Murie wrote:

> "As best" is an odd enough idiom, but "as best as" is beyond odd,
> to my ear
> (though heard often enough).  I wonder if the existence of the word
> /asbestos/ has somehow contributed to it....?

very unlikely that "asbestos" had anything to do with it.

i have no idea what the history is here -- i don't find "as best" (in
the relevant usage) in the OED Online, but maybe i just didn't look
in the right places -- but i find "as best as" just fine in most of
the examples i looked at after i googled on "as best as" (there are
hundreds of thousands of hits), and plain "as best" only marginal (it
strikes me as dated).

granted that "as best" and "as best as" are both idiomatic, it would
be hard to choose between them on semantic grounds.  in fact, "as
best as" has the virtue of conforming syntactically to other uses of
"as" + Adj, while things like "as best I can see" are syntactically
rather odd.

query: do people who like "as best I can see" (without the matching
"as") also accept a version with an explicit complementizer: "as best
that I can see"?

in any case, "as best as" + Clause could have developed from "as best
" + Clause by filling in a matching "as", or the second could have
developed from the first by abbreviation.  or the second could have
been a blend of "as best as" + Clause and "the best" + Clause (as in
"the best I can see").  undoubtedly other scenarios could be
imagined.  but are there any actual data on the history of these
expressions and on their distribution (geographical, social,
stylistic, whatever)?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:32:46 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:32:46 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore") & a lexical gap
In-Reply-To: <42A711F6.5090402@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:42 AM -0400 6/8/05, Alice Faber wrote:
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>>We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
>>on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
>>anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
>>the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
>>Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
>>associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
>>struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
>>"anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
>>_Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.
>>
>>Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
>>audiotape of the book:
>>
>>"She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
>>the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
>>day."
>>
>>"Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
>>off the internet"
>>
>>I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
>>degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
>>as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
>>1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
>>and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
>>of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
>>partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
>>1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
>>somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
>>Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
>>never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
>>the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
>>characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
>>libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
>>such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
>>character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
>>Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
>>colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
>>or I'd have noticed.
>
>The Hudson Valley would count both as Upstate NY and positive anymore
>country. (Certainly, Columbia and Greene Counties would, and possibly
>neighboring counties like Duchess, Renselear (sp?) and Ulster, as well.)

Thanks, Alice; that would certainly explain it.  I don't know which
upstate NY county Russo grew up in, but it's interesting that after
going to school in upstate NY (Monroe County) and California, I had
never encountered it AFAIK before living in the midwest, in Michigan.
In four years in Wisconsin I heard it all the time.  The classic
dialectological treatments suggested to me that the U.S. heartland is
indeed the heartland of the relevant dialect area (see Thomas
Murray's 1993 article in _Heartland English_), but this may well be
changing.  Anyone know about Maine?  And if the usage was in fact
unconsciously transplanted there by Russo (from upstate NY, Illinois,
Arizona, and/or Pennsylvania), is there a label for that, parallel to
"anachronism" but referring to unintentionally superimposing one's
own regional dialect on that of one's characters?  It obviously
happens a lot when British authors set novels in the U.S. or vice
versa.  "Exoglossisms?"  (Don't everyone huzzah at once.)

Larry

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:45:07 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:45:07 -0700
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1118221940@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 8, 2005, at 9:12 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

>> From an internal memo here at Linfield:
>
> "Because they can't review the credentials of the successful hire,
> they are
> putting a lot of eggs on the quality of the consultant."
>
> This isn't a blend of two idioms, like "horse of a different
> feather" (a
> usage beloved of the mother of a childhood friend of mine).
> Rather, it's
> an incomplete one, which renders it comical.

it could be viewed as a substitution blend, in the sense of David Fay
(1981.  Substitutions and splices: A study of sentence blends.
Cutler 1981:717-49.).  in such a blend, an expression -- not
necessarily idiomatic -- has a word replaced by interference from
another.  in this case: "put a lot of significance/importance/
weight/... on", with "eggs" intruding from the semantically related
"put all one's eggs in a single basket".

looks like a one-shot event, in any case.  no relevant google web
hits on "put/putting a lot of eggs on".

but... wait!  "put all your eggs on" produces some relevant examples
-- "why put all your eggs on Immortals", "Don't put all your eggs one
one planet", "Don't put all your eggs on one disk so to speak", "It's
dangerous to put all your eggs on scores", "Never put all your eggs
on one diskette" -- plus a fair number of "put all your eggs on one
basket" (with "on" rather than "in").

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 16:51:17 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:51:17 -0500
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore") & a lexical gap
In-Reply-To: <200506081632.j58GWgMX008555@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Laurence Horn wrote, of the use of positive "anymore":
> And if the usage was in fact unconsciously transplanted there by Russo
> (from upstate NY, Illinois, Arizona, and/or Pennsylvania), is there a
> label for that, parallel to "anachronism" but referring to unintentionally
> superimposing one's own regional dialect on that of one's characters?
> It obviously happens a lot when British authors set novels in the U.S.
> or vice versa.  "Exoglossisms?"  (Don't everyone huzzah at once.)

I'd suggest "analinguism", to make the parallel as explicit as possible.
(Another member of the set: I've seen the word "anamundism" used by
critics of fantasy and science fiction, to describe attitudes or
phenomena inappropriate to the milieu of a story.)

(Yes, I realize "analinguism" is a Greco-Latin hybrid. Those who abhor
such may substitute... hmm, would it be "anastomism"?)

Jim Parish

Jim Parish

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 17:00:23 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:00:23 -0400
Subject: "as best as"
Message-ID: 

The more familiar syntax, I think, is with the main verb preceding the "as
best" bit: e.g., "I'll do it as best I can" or "He ran as best he could."
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  8 17:10:53 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:10:53 -0500
Subject: Accent in Doubt
Message-ID: 

Larry's posts about positive anymore in Maine reminded me of a question I
had about the accent of one of the main characters in the play Doubt.

The play is set in the Bronx but the lead actress, the one playing Sister
Aloysius, uses a Northern Cities Shifted accent. Most striking to me was the
raising of /ae/ before voiceless consonants (e.g. happy) which does not
normally happen in NYC. I haven't seen or read the play - I've only seen
clips on, e.g., the NewsHour - so I don't know if the character is supposed
to be a native New Yorker or not. Does anyone know if she's supposed to be a
transplant from Chicago or some other northern city?

The actress, Cherry Jones, is a Tennessee native. Many of the reviews talk
about the authentic Bronx accent that the male lead, who's Irish, had to
acquire, but I haven't seen any comments on Jones' accent.

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 17:14:38 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:14:38 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore") & a lexical gap
In-Reply-To: <42A6DBB5.19528.2FA47D25@localhost>
Message-ID: 

 Allodict?
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  8 17:14:48 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:14:48 -0700
Subject: "as best as"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Alison Murie added to her previous posting:

> The more familiar syntax, I think, is with the main verb preceding
> the "as
> best" bit: e.g., "I'll do it as best I can" or "He ran as best he
> could."

hmmm.  these are slightly better for me, but only slightly.  is the
"can"/"could" part of the idiom for you?

i'd prefer "the best I can" and "the best he could".  but that's me.

arnold

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun  8 17:22:45 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:22:45 -0700
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore") & a lexical gap
In-Reply-To: <42A6DBB5.19528.2FA47D25@localhost>
Message-ID: 

--On Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:51 AM -0500 Jim Parish 
wrote:

> I'd suggest "analinguism", to make the parallel as explicit as possible.
> (Another member of the set: I've seen the word "anamundism" used by
> critics of fantasy and science fiction, to describe attitudes or
> phenomena inappropriate to the milieu of a story.)
>
> (Yes, I realize "analinguism" is a Greco-Latin hybrid. Those who abhor
> such may substitute... hmm, would it be "anastomism"?)

Well, yeah, but more importantly it raises the question: Would someone who
becomes obsessive about the whole thing be called "analingual retentive"?

(Or maybe not.)

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 17:45:17 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:45:17 -0400
Subject: Accent in Doubt
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:10 PM -0500 6/8/05, Matthew Gordon wrote:
>Larry's posts about positive anymore in Maine reminded me of a question I
>had about the accent of one of the main characters in the play Doubt.
>
>The play is set in the Bronx but the lead actress, the one playing Sister
>Aloysius, uses a Northern Cities Shifted accent. Most striking to me was the
>raising of /ae/ before voiceless consonants (e.g. happy) which does not
>normally happen in NYC. I haven't seen or read the play - I've only seen
>clips on, e.g., the NewsHour - so I don't know if the character is supposed
>to be a native New Yorker or not. Does anyone know if she's supposed to be a
>transplant from Chicago or some other northern city?

ah, the Andy Sipowicz (Dennis Franz) syndrome, to a vowel.  With
Detective (later Sergeant) Sipowicz, as discussed here, there's no
question that he was supposed to be a New Yorker born and bred, so
his Northern Cities vowels (esp  as in happy) were a perfect
example of...whatever we decide to call it.

L

>
>The actress, Cherry Jones, is a Tennessee native. Many of the reviews talk
>about the authentic Bronx accent that the male lead, who's Irish, had to
>acquire, but I haven't seen any comments on Jones' accent.

From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun  8 17:53:50 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:53:50 -0500
Subject: Accent in Doubt
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Yes, except that Dennis Franz was presumably just using his native Chicago
accent. What we appear to have here is a Tennesseean putting on the wrong
Northern accent, assuming, as I said, that the character is supposed to be a
New Yorker.

On 6/8/05 12:45 PM, "Laurence Horn"  wrote:

> At 12:10 PM -0500 6/8/05, Matthew Gordon wrote:
>> Larry's posts about positive anymore in Maine reminded me of a question I
>> had about the accent of one of the main characters in the play Doubt.
>>
>> The play is set in the Bronx but the lead actress, the one playing Sister
>> Aloysius, uses a Northern Cities Shifted accent. Most striking to me was the
>> raising of /ae/ before voiceless consonants (e.g. happy) which does not
>> normally happen in NYC. I haven't seen or read the play - I've only seen
>> clips on, e.g., the NewsHour - so I don't know if the character is supposed
>> to be a native New Yorker or not. Does anyone know if she's supposed to be a
>> transplant from Chicago or some other northern city?
>
> ah, the Andy Sipowicz (Dennis Franz) syndrome, to a vowel.  With
> Detective (later Sergeant) Sipowicz, as discussed here, there's no
> question that he was supposed to be a New Yorker born and bred, so
> his Northern Cities vowels (esp  as in happy) were a perfect
> example of...whatever we decide to call it.
>
> L
>
>>
>> The actress, Cherry Jones, is a Tennessee native. Many of the reviews talk
>> about the authentic Bronx accent that the male lead, who's Irish, had to
>> acquire, but I haven't seen any comments on Jones' accent.

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 18:01:07 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:01:07 -0400
Subject: "as best as"
Message-ID: 

arnold writes:
> in fact, "as best as" has the virtue of conforming syntactically to other
>uses of
>"as" + Adj, while things like "as best I can see" are syntactically rather
>odd.
~~~~~~~~~
The oddity lies in its use with the superlative.  Can you think of any
other such cases ("as" + superl + "as")?  Or, simply, "as"+ superlative?
AM

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun  8 18:09:48 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:09:48 -0400
Subject: "as best as"
In-Reply-To: <37D6F377-0E7B-4F21-9BB3-4439505BEC46@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Alison Murie added to her previous posting:
>
>> The more familiar syntax, I think, is with the main verb preceding
>> the "as
>> best" bit: e.g., "I'll do it as best I can" or "He ran as best he
>> could."
>
>hmmm.  these are slightly better for me, but only slightly.  is the
>"can"/"could" part of the idiom for you?
>
>i'd prefer "the best I can" and "the best he could".  but that's me.
~~~~~~~~~
same here.
AM

>
>arnold

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com

From Berson at ATT.NET  Wed Jun  8 18:09:45 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:09:45 -0400
Subject: Accent in Doubt
Message-ID: 

FWIW, Cherry Jones appeared in Cambridge, Mass., with the American
Repertory Theater (affiliated with Harvard) for a few years before she
moved to Broadway (and was acclaimed, in I think first "The
Heiress).  Also, she is a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University.

In passing, her performance in Doubt just won the Tony for Best Actress.

Joel

At 6/8/2005 01:10 PM, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Matthew Gordon 
>Subject:      Accent in Doubt
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Larry's posts about positive anymore in Maine reminded me of a question I
>had about the accent of one of the main characters in the play Doubt.
>
>The play is set in the Bronx but the lead actress, the one playing Sister
>Aloysius, uses a Northern Cities Shifted accent. Most striking to me was the
>raising of /ae/ before voiceless consonants (e.g. happy) which does not
>normally happen in NYC. I haven't seen or read the play - I've only seen
>clips on, e.g., the NewsHour - so I don't know if the character is supposed
>to be a native New Yorker or not. Does anyone know if she's supposed to be a
>transplant from Chicago or some other northern city?
>
>The actress, Cherry Jones, is a Tennessee native. Many of the reviews talk
>about the authentic Bronx accent that the male lead, who's Irish, had to
>acquire, but I haven't seen any comments on Jones' accent.

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun  8 18:27:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:27:44 -0500
Subject: As best as...
Message-ID: 

Probably related to "as far as".  I use (I believe) "as best as I can
tell" and "as best as I know" as replacements for "as far as I can tell"
and "as far as I know".

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Arnold M. Zwicky
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 11:24 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: As best as...
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
> Subject:      Re: As best as...
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:37 AM, Alison Murie wrote:
>
> > "As best" is an odd enough idiom, but "as best as" is
> beyond odd, to
> > my ear (though heard often enough).  I wonder if the
> existence of the
> > word /asbestos/ has somehow contributed to it....?
>
> very unlikely that "asbestos" had anything to do with it.
>
> i have no idea what the history is here -- i don't find "as
> best" (in the relevant usage) in the OED Online, but maybe i
> just didn't look in the right places -- but i find "as best
> as" just fine in most of the examples i looked at after i
> googled on "as best as" (there are hundreds of thousands of
> hits), and plain "as best" only marginal (it strikes me as dated).
>
> granted that "as best" and "as best as" are both idiomatic,
> it would be hard to choose between them on semantic grounds.
> in fact, "as best as" has the virtue of conforming
> syntactically to other uses of "as" + Adj, while things like
> "as best I can see" are syntactically rather odd.
>
> query: do people who like "as best I can see" (without the matching
> "as") also accept a version with an explicit complementizer:
> "as best that I can see"?
>
> in any case, "as best as" + Clause could have developed from
> "as best " + Clause by filling in a matching "as", or the
> second could have developed from the first by abbreviation.
> or the second could have been a blend of "as best as" +
> Clause and "the best" + Clause (as in "the best I can see").
> undoubtedly other scenarios could be imagined.  but are there
> any actual data on the history of these expressions and on
> their distribution (geographical, social, stylistic, whatever)?
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 18:32:37 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:32:37 -0400
Subject: Accent in Doubt
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050608135853.021f3648@ipostoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 

At 2:09 PM -0400 6/8/05, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>FWIW, Cherry Jones appeared in Cambridge, Mass., with the American
>Repertory Theater (affiliated with Harvard) for a few years before she
>moved to Broadway (and was acclaimed, in I think first "The
>Heiress).  Also, she is a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University.
>
>In passing, her performance in Doubt just won the Tony for Best Actress.
>
>Joel

Ah, but she obviously won't win the Raven for the most
dialectologically convincing performance by an actor in a Broadway
drama or musical.

Larry

>
>At 6/8/2005 01:10 PM, you wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       Matthew Gordon 
>>Subject:      Accent in Doubt
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Larry's posts about positive anymore in Maine reminded me of a question I
>>had about the accent of one of the main characters in the play Doubt.
>>
>>The play is set in the Bronx but the lead actress, the one playing Sister
>>Aloysius, uses a Northern Cities Shifted accent. Most striking to me was the
>>raising of /ae/ before voiceless consonants (e.g. happy) which does not
>>normally happen in NYC. I haven't seen or read the play - I've only seen
>>clips on, e.g., the NewsHour - so I don't know if the character is supposed
>>to be a native New Yorker or not. Does anyone know if she's supposed to be a
>>transplant from Chicago or some other northern city?
>>
>>The actress, Cherry Jones, is a Tennessee native. Many of the reviews talk
>>about the authentic Bronx accent that the male lead, who's Irish, had to
>>acquire, but I haven't seen any comments on Jones' accent.

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun  8 19:30:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:30:38 -0400
Subject: "Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e1paat@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Naturally, you are correct, as usual, dInIs. It's only that this is the
first and only time that I have ever heard this particular construction
used in real life as opposed to its use as an attention-grabber in the
old commercial. A minor quibble: wouldn't "grammatical" be a better
descriptor than "standard"?

How do you feel about a structure like "doesn't anybody ...?" Many
times, I've heard constructions like, "She's so mean and evil that
*can't anybody* stay with her." I considered them to be both
grammatical *and* standard - "can't nobody" would be non-standard -
until I heard a lecture in which Haj Ross pointed out that such
constructions are peculiar to BE. [And perhaps to other non-standard
dialects? Haj didn't say and I don't know.]

-Wilson

On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: "Nobody doesn't like Sarah Lee"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Perfectly standard multiple negation; now, if she had said "Doesn't
> nobody want to be...." that would have been a complete makeover of
> another sort.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> Heard on today's Maury Povich Show, spoken by a woman who'd had a
>> complete makeover: "Nobody doesn't want to be with me, now!"
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>         Asian and African Languages
> Wells Hall A-740
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office: (517) 353-0740
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
>

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Jun  8 20:17:56 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:17:56 -0700
Subject: What is this?
Message-ID: 

I have a colleague who specializes in these blends.  She doesn't even try, she just does it. I think it's so cool that I have tried to master this art, but I am convinced it's a gift.  I come up with stupid things like "Don't cross your chickens 'til your bridges have hatched." But she's brilliant.
Just this morning, she said "Song and pony show." This just flows.
My favorite?: "This is so easy, it's like shooting babies in a barrel."

Fritz J

>>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 06/08/05 09:12AM >>>
>>From an internal memo here at Linfield:

"Because they can't review the credentials of the successful hire, they are
putting a lot of eggs on the quality of the consultant."

This isn't a blend of two idioms, like "horse of a different feather" (a
usage beloved of the mother of a childhood friend of mine).  Rather, it's
an incomplete one, which renders it comical.

Is there a technical term for this, does anybody know?

Peter M.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

From Berson at ATT.NET  Wed Jun  8 20:32:16 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:32:16 -0400
Subject: What is this?
Message-ID: 

My goodness.  Put her in print, coin a word, and she'll live forever
alongside spoonerisms.

Joel

At 6/8/2005 04:17 PM, you wrote:
>have a colleague who specializes in these blends.  She doesn't even try,
>she just does it. I think it's so cool that I have tried to master this
>art, but I am convinced it's a gift.  I come up with stupid things like
>"Don't cross your chickens 'til your bridges have hatched." But she's
>brilliant.
>Just this morning, she said "Song and pony show." This just flows.
>My favorite?: "This is so easy, it's like shooting babies in a barrel."
>
>Fritz J

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 20:47:24 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:47:24 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore") & a lexical gap
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1118226165@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: 

At 10:22 AM -0700 6/8/05, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>--On Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:51 AM -0500 Jim Parish 
>wrote:
>
>>I'd suggest "analinguism", to make the parallel as explicit as possible.
>>(Another member of the set: I've seen the word "anamundism" used by
>>critics of fantasy and science fiction, to describe attitudes or
>>phenomena inappropriate to the milieu of a story.)
>>
>>(Yes, I realize "analinguism" is a Greco-Latin hybrid. Those who abhor
>>such may substitute... hmm, would it be "anastomism"?)
>
>Well, yeah, but more importantly it raises the question: Would someone who
>becomes obsessive about the whole thing be called "analingual retentive"?
>
>(Or maybe not.)
>
Yeah, I think "analinguism" gets wiped out by homonymy/taboo
avoidance.  Besides which, even if we do avoid the anal- parse, ana-
is "before"*, and what we need here is 'elsewhere', whence my
suggestion of "exo-" as in "exoglossism" or, avoiding the Greco-Latin
hybrid, "exolinguism", although the latter is too redolent to me of
"exolinguistics", the study of extraterrestrial languages.

L

*The same objection would carry over to the SF "anamundism" Jim
mentions.  Granted, without the "ana-" we do lose the reference to
"anachronism", but such is life.

From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun  8 21:07:40 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:07:40 -0400
Subject: "Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee"
In-Reply-To: <63bcfb29bf6ea39f2019e6dd87df94be@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

Wilson,

I've also always assumed that "Can't anybody..." is also nonstandard,
although its uniqueness to AAVE is very questionable.

Note that interrogative "Can't anybody/somebody" constructions are
pure whitebread dandy (like that better than "standard"?), so let's
not hear from nobody about them. We ain't talkin bout them.

dInIs

>Naturally, you are correct, as usual, dInIs. It's only that this is the
>first and only time that I have ever heard this particular construction
>used in real life as opposed to its use as an attention-grabber in the
>old commercial. A minor quibble: wouldn't "grammatical" be a better
>descriptor than "standard"?
>
>How do you feel about a structure like "doesn't anybody ...?" Many
>times, I've heard constructions like, "She's so mean and evil that
>*can't anybody* stay with her." I considered them to be both
>grammatical *and* standard - "can't nobody" would be non-standard -
>until I heard a lecture in which Haj Ross pointed out that such
>constructions are peculiar to BE. [And perhaps to other non-standard
>dialects? Haj didn't say and I don't know.]
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>>Subject:      Re: "Nobody doesn't like Sarah Lee"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Perfectly standard multiple negation; now, if she had said "Doesn't
>>nobody want to be...." that would have been a complete makeover of
>>another sort.
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>>Heard on today's Maury Povich Show, spoken by a woman who'd had a
>>>complete makeover: "Nobody doesn't want to be with me, now!"
>>>
>>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor
>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>>         Asian and African Languages
>>Wells Hall A-740
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>Office: (517) 353-0740
>>Fax: (517) 432-2736

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Wed Jun  8 22:22:46 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:22:46 -0500
Subject: What is this?
Message-ID: 

Joel S. Berson wrote:
>
>My goodness.  Put her in print, coin a word, and she'll live forever
>alongside spoonerisms.
>
>Joel
>
>At 6/8/2005 04:17 PM, you wrote:
>>have a colleague who specializes in these blends.  She doesn't even try,
>>she just does it. I think it's so cool that I have tried to master this
>>art, but I am convinced it's a gift.  I come up with stupid things like
>>"Don't cross your chickens 'til your bridges have hatched." But she's
>>brilliant.
>>Just this morning, she said "Song and pony show." This just flows.
>>My favorite?: "This is so easy, it's like shooting babies in a barrel."
>>
>>Fritz J

Pardon my ignorance, but I can't see why these aren't covered by the term
'mixed metaphors.' As it was put to me by my bookie when I was barking up
the wrong door after the horse got out, 'don't mix your metaphors, and I
won't question my bettors.'

Michael McKernan

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun  8 21:55:38 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:55:38 -0400
Subject: "I've served my time in Hell"
In-Reply-To: <20050507174239.75967.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> "Our Hitch in Hell." The author was Frank B. [Bernard] Camp (1882 -
> ?1967), and the poem appeared in his collection, _Mexican Border
> Ballads_ (Douglas, Ariz.: F. B. Camp, 1916). It was revised and
> reprinted in Camp's _American Soldier Ballads_ (L.A.: G. Rice & Sons,
> 1917). A Google search reveals that it was more than once adapted and
> passed on anonymously.

I have just obtained a photocopy of F. B. Camp, Mexican Border Ballads
(1916).  In quickly looking through this I do not see "Our Hitch in Hell"
or anything resembling it in that book, assuming that all the pages were
photocopied properly.  Is it possible that the above is mistaken?

Fred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From info at WORDSMITH.ORG  Wed Jun  8 23:30:34 2005
From: info at WORDSMITH.ORG (Wordsmith.org)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:30:34 -0400
Subject: Online chat announcement
Message-ID: 

Michael Quinion of World Wide Words will appear in an online chat at
Wordsmith.org on Saturday, June 18, 2005. The topic of the chat is
"Language myths." For more details, please see http://wordsmith.org/chat

All are invited.

Wordsmith.org

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  9 00:51:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:51:00 -0700
Subject: "I've served my time in Hell"
Message-ID: 

Fred, I can't believe I'm mistaken about this.  I still haven't turned up my (photo)copy, as we've just moved and, despite my best preventive efforts, virtually nothing is findable.

So the question is, Who are you going to believe ? Me or your own lyin' eyes ?

That's a joke.  I'm still looking, though, and will tell you when (yes, dammit, *when*) the book shows up, regardless of what may or may not be in it.

If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to fess up.  At least the 1917 text is real !

Jon

Fred Shapiro  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: Re: "I've served my time in Hell"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> "Our Hitch in Hell." The author was Frank B. [Bernard] Camp (1882 -
> ?1967), and the poem appeared in his collection, _Mexican Border
> Ballads_ (Douglas, Ariz.: F. B. Camp, 1916). It was revised and
> reprinted in Camp's _American Soldier Ballads_ (L.A.: G. Rice & Sons,
> 1917). A Google search reveals that it was more than once adapted and
> passed on anonymously.

I have just obtained a photocopy of F. B. Camp, Mexican Border Ballads
(1916). In quickly looking through this I do not see "Our Hitch in Hell"
or anything resembling it in that book, assuming that all the pages were
photocopied properly. Is it possible that the above is mistaken?

Fred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  9 02:13:40 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:13:40 -0400
Subject: NY City Council and a rubber stamp (Henry Stern, 1965)
Message-ID: 

Henry Stern was the Parks Commissioner and now leads NY Civic. He can be contacted here:
...
http://www.nycivic.org/
StarQuest at nycivic.org.
...
...
In 1965 (I can't find the quote then, but ask him), Stern said that the New York City COuncil was less than a rubber stamp, because "a rubber stamp makes an impression."
...
...
...
Tragedy of the Council
839 words
14 January 2004
The New York Sun
English
Copyright 2004 The New York Sun, One SL, LLC. All rights reserved.

Last week, on the occasion of being unanimously re-elected speaker of the City Council, Gifford Miller delivered an address to the body in which he - however unintentionally - demonstrated the truth of that famous crack by former Parks Commissioner and ex-Council Member Henry Stern that the only difference between the council and a rubber stamp is that a stamp at least leaves an impression.
...
...
Poll Confirms Ferrer's Fall; Mayor, Fields Are All Smiles
ANDREW WOLF
945 words
28 April 2005
The New York Sun
Yesterday, I paraphrased a great quote about the New York City Council being less than a rubber stamp because at least a rubber stamp leaves an impression.

Lest anyone think that I was clever enough to come up with that jewel on my own, allow me to disabuse you of that impression. The brilliant author of that observation is Henry Stern, the former parks commissioner who himself served as council member-at-large from the borough of Manhattan. Mr. Stern came up with this oft-quoted phrase more than 40 years ago, a description still as fresh as the morning dew.
...
...
Moskowitz Misses the Mark
ANDREW WOLF
852 words
18 November 2003
The New York Sun
The president of the UFT, Randi Weingarten, arrived at Thursday's hearing with the head of the city's Central Labor Council, Assemblyman Brian McLaughlin, and a Democratic power broker, Howard Wolfson, in tow. Presumably, they were there to stare down the committee members. Did you forget, Ms. Weingarten? This is the City Council, the legislative body that the former parks commissioner, Henry Stern, said is less effective than a rubber stamp - because at least a rubber stamp leaves an impression.
...
...
Metropolitan Desk; B
City Council Wakes Up but Still Lags
By ALAN FINDER
2,409 words
29 January 1988
The New York Times
A celebrated bit of lore was invoked by many people trying to describe how poorly regarded the Council was. Henry J. Stern, now the Parks and Recreation Commissioner, characterized the body this way when he first ran for the Council, unsuccessfully, in 1965: ''The Council is less than a rubber stamp, because a rubber stamp at least leaves an impression.''
...
...
CITY; As He Leaves, Vallone Scorns Calls for Change; Looks Back With Pleasure on His Record
DIANE CARDWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 24, 2001. p. F4 (1 page) :
Even Henry J. Stern, the former council member and current parks commissioner who once said that the Council was less than a rubber stamp because even a rubber stamp makes an impression, allowed that under Mr. Vallone the Council had "made some progress on dealing with substantive issues."

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun  9 03:58:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:58:08 -0400
Subject: "Your world"
Message-ID: 

Heard on the trash-TV show, "Blind Date":

"This is your world. I'm only a squirrel, trying to get a nut."
[30-year-old European-American male, Los Angeles]

When I first heard a version of this in 1955, it was the simpler,

"It's your world. Just let me live." [18-year-old African-American
male, St. Louis]

"Time changes things," to coin a phrase.

-Wilson Gray

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun  9 05:03:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 01:03:13 -0400
Subject: blind item (1937)
Message-ID: 

A staple of the gossip pages (particularly the New York Post's Page Six)
is the "blind item" -- a piece of veiled gossip with names removed, often
slyly phrased as a question (e.g., "Which newly married actor isn't so
faithful?").  Gawker.com culls the Post's blind items and lets readers
guess the intended subjects:

http://www.gawker.com/news/culture/blind-items/

Not surprisingly, "blind items" go back to the rise of Hollywood
gossip-mongering in the '30s...

-----
1937 _Washington Post_ 7 Mar. VII3/1 No form of Hollywood gossip is half
so vicious as those "blind items" which are passed along to you
surreptitiously over the luncheon table and behind closed doors.  Your
informer, of course, would be violating the most sacred confidence -- oh,
not for the world would he confide names, so makes matters far worse by
leaving it to your imagination.
-----
1939 _Nevada State Journal_ 5 May 4/6 [Walter Winchell On Broadway] Do me
a favor, please. Don't run blind items. Name names.
-----

"Blind item" is a blind spot for the OED and the other major dictionaries.
 I don't even see this particular sense of "blind", though it's somewhat
related to "blind" = 'unsigned' (as in "blind advertisement").  The OED
does have an intriguing cite that suggests the sense could be very old
indeed:

-----
1699 BENTLEY Phal. Pref. 64 He insinuates a blind Story about something
and somebody.
-----

But "blind story" is defined by the OED as 'one without point' rather than
'one with names concealed', so perhaps this is just a blind alley.

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  9 06:29:16 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:29:16 -0400
Subject: "Landlord of last resort" (George Meany, 1967)
Message-ID: 

The U.S. Supreme Court is the "court of last resort." I'm sure Fred Shapiro has that somewhere.
...
New York City is often called the "landlord of last resort." It appears that George Meany first used this for the federal government.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
3 Faiths and AFL-CIO Back Open Housing Bill
By Frank C. Porter Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 24, 1967. p. A5 (1 page) :
Where other alternatives fail, he said, "the Federal Government must be the landlord of last resort."
(AFL-CIO President George Meany--ed.)
...
...
LABOR URGES PLAN FOR URBAN CRISIS; Says Multibillion-Dollar U.S. Aid Would Create Million Jobs and Vitalize Cities Labor Urges Billion-Dollar Plan To End the Urban Crisis in U.S.
By DAMON STETSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 13, 1967. p. 1 (2 pages)
"The United States Government has got to be the employer of last resort and the landlord of last resort," George (Pg. 32, col. 7--ed.) Meany, A.F.L.-C.I.O. president, said in explaining the program.
...
...
MEANY SAYS ONLY U.S. CAN PREVENT RIOTS
Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 25, 1967. p. 51 (1 page) :
"The Federal Government must be the employer of last resort and the landlord of last resort," Mr. Meany, president of the American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations, told the Special Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders.
...
...
Officials Debate Financial Ability Of City to Play 'Biggest Landlord'; Tenants at City's Mercy 18,000 Buildings by 1980
By ARNOLD H. LUBASCH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 13, 1979. p. B6 (1 page) :
But, he said, if the program fails to rehabilitate housing to adequate conditions, "one might suggest that New York City cannot afford to be the landlord of last resort."
(U.S. Representative William Green, Republican of Manhattan--ed.)

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun  9 06:32:49 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:32:49 -0400
Subject: "fixed around" (UK vs US)
Message-ID: 

As the good ol' MSM finally start tackling the "Downing Street memo",
expect a lot of discussion about the trans-Atlantic semantics of "fixed
around"...

-----
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-07-bush-blair_x.htm
Robin Niblett of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a
Washington think tank, says it would be easy for Americans to
misunderstand the reference to intelligence being "fixed around" Iraq
policy. " 'Fixed around' in British English means 'bolted on' rather than
altered to fit the policy," he says.
-----

There was some interesting discussion about "fixed around" on
alt.usage.english when the memo first came to light last month:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/fec41dbb7352e0f6/

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  9 07:16:06 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 03:16:06 -0400
Subject: "Black Cars" (and yellow cabs)
Message-ID: 

OED has no entry for "black car."
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
NEW YORK'S 15,000 CRUISING TAXIS MAKE CITY UNSAFE -- TIE UP TRAFFIC; Divided Authority in Controlling Cabs and Mixup of Rates Add to General Confusion -- One Remedy Proposed Would Convert Cabs Into Jitney Buses in Rush Hours
New York Times (1857-Current. Feb 4, 1923. p. XX11 (1 page) :
The largest company operating under the lowest tariff painted its taxis yellow. Immediately other owners followed example and the city is now flooded with yellow taxicabs which have varying rates. The only colors the law recognizes are the brown and white taxiabs, which, according to the ordinance, must have a green flag. Yellow and black cars may utilize any color.
...
...
500 Radio Cabs Are Converted to Street-Hail Duty
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 7, 1982. p. 59 (1 page) :
"This way everybody's happy," said Steve Galiatsatos, president of the Dialcab Taxi Owners Guild Association. "we're servicing the public with cabs on the street to be hailed, and the black car takes care of our corporate accounts."

Operators of the "black cars"--whose colors, in fact, vary, depending on the preference of fleet owners or individual drivers--may service radio calls only.
(...)
Mr. Ippolito, who is also president of Inta-Boro, predicted that half the drivers of radio-equipped medaliion taxis will have switched to "black cars" by December 1983.
...
...
New York Making Changes To Improve Its Taxi Service; New York Acting on Changes to Improve City's Taxi Service
By SUZANNE DALEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 26, 1984. p. 1 (2 pages)
First page:
Meanwhile, the commission has increased the number of yellow cabds available for street hails by getting some of them to transfer their radios to a new type of taxi called a "black car," which answers only telephone summonses.
...
...
en Cabs Are Rare, Travelers Summon Their Ingenuity; Travelers Use Ingenuity to Hail Cabs
By SUZANNIE DALEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 10, 1984. p. B1 (2 pages)
Pg. B4:
In the past two years, the city has increased the number of yellow cabs available for street hails by allowing the owners of the yellows to transfer their radios to black cars--licensed, nonmedallion taxis. The black cars answer radio calls, allowing the yellows to keep cruising for fares.
...
...
Car Services Increase in Popularity
By LISA BELKIN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 7, 1984. p. B20 (1 page) :
To increase the number of cars available for street hails, the commission decided to allow the transfer of the radios to so-called black cars, which are licensed but nonmedallion taxis.

Operators soon discovered a demand for these black cars, which were, in many ways, less expensive to operate than a medallion cab.
...
...
Yellow Cabs and Black Cars: A Quick Lesson
By ANDY NEWMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 17, 1998. p. B14 (1 page) :
Until the 1950's, yellow cabs (although they weren't all yellow then) were the only private cars that picked up passengers and transported them for a fee. But as yellow cabs focused more of their business in the lower two-thirds of Manhattan, neighborhood car services, which can pick up passengers only by prearrangement, began to spring up in other parts of the city.

Today the term "livery car" encompasses a range of private taxis, including car services that serve the working and middle classes, "black cars" that transport businesspeople, commuter vans in Queens and Brooklyn and vans for the disabled.

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  9 11:20:39 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:20:39 -0400
Subject: Origin of "Back to Square One"
Message-ID: 

The OED has launched a high-profile appeals list directed at eliciting
antedatings and etymological discoveries for a small roster of important
terms, in conjuntion with a forthcoming BBC television show.  One of the
items on the list is "back to square one" (1960).  JSTOR yields the
following antedating, which is a very interesting one because it makes the
provenance of the phrase quite clear:

"The writer ... has the problem of maintaining the interest of a reader
who is being always sent back to square one in a sort of intellectual game
of snakes and ladders."
        _Economic Journal_, volume 62, page 411 (1952)

Fred R. Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  9 12:48:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:48:26 -0700
Subject: to "recreate"
Message-ID: 

Fox News reports that should Michael Jackson be convicted, he will be confined to a "facility" whose gym will allow him to "recreate" daily.

That means have some recreation.

JL

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  9 13:24:58 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:24:58 -0400
Subject: to "recreate"
In-Reply-To: <20050609124826.77318.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Shakespeare has "recreate" as a verb in Julius Caesar as I recall
(Act 1?). Perhaps it can be documented earlier. Too lazy to look it
up.

dInIs

>Fox News reports that should Michael Jackson be convicted, he will
>be confined to a "facility" whose gym will allow him to "recreate"
>daily.
>
>That means have some recreation.
>
>JL
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  9 13:35:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:35:49 -0700
Subject: to "recreate"
Message-ID: 

dInIs may be right about Shakespeare. OED doesn't cite the guy, but it does have six cites back to 1587.

Still sounds dumb, though.

The Fox pronunciation, BTW, was  / 'rE kriet /,  not  / rikri 'et /.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: to "recreate"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shakespeare has "recreate" as a verb in Julius Caesar as I recall
(Act 1?). Perhaps it can be documented earlier. Too lazy to look it
up.

dInIs

>Fox News reports that should Michael Jackson be convicted, he will
>be confined to a "facility" whose gym will allow him to "recreate"
>daily.
>
>That means have some recreation.
>
>JL
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Jun  9 13:41:41 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:41:41 +0200
Subject: to "recreate"
In-Reply-To: <20050609132503.C9A6514A8E@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

For recreate, Webster's 1828 gives "1. To refresh after toil; to reanimate,
as languid spirits or exhausted strength; to amuse or divert in weariness";
the American Heritage 2000 edition gives "To take recreation"; WordNet 2
gives "play, recreate -- (engage in recreational activities rather than
work; occupy oneself in a diversion; "On weekends I play"; "The students all
recreate alike'' )." See http://www.onelook.com/ and enter "recreate."

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Jun  9 13:46:44 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:46:44 -0400
Subject: to "recreate"
In-Reply-To: <20050609133550.55704.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>dInIs may be right about Shakespeare. OED doesn't cite the guy, but it
>does have six cites back to 1587.
>
>Still sounds dumb, though.
>
>The Fox pronunciation, BTW, was  / 'rE kriet /,  not  / rikri 'et /.
>
>JL
 ~~~~~~~~~~~
Besides which, in the case of MJ the clarification could well be needed (at
least for the print version).
AM

From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  9 13:58:01 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:58:01 -0400
Subject: to "recreate"
In-Reply-To: <20050609133550.55704.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

That's how I'd'a pronounced it too (and I think that's how
Shakespeareans pronounce it).

dInIs

>dInIs may be right about Shakespeare. OED doesn't cite the guy, but
>it does have six cites back to 1587.
>
>Still sounds dumb, though.
>
>The Fox pronunciation, BTW, was  / 'rE kriet /,  not  / rikri 'et /.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: to "recreate"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Shakespeare has "recreate" as a verb in Julius Caesar as I recall
>(Act 1?). Perhaps it can be documented earlier. Too lazy to look it
>up.
>
>dInIs
>
>>Fox News reports that should Michael Jackson be convicted, he will
>>be confined to a "facility" whose gym will allow him to "recreate"
>>daily.
>>
>>That means have some recreation.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>Asian and African Languages
>Wells Hall A-740
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office: (517) 353-0740
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun  9 14:06:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:06:23 -0700
Subject: to "recreate"
Message-ID: 

Not that it matters, but the structure of the Webster 1828 def. suggest to me that Noah had the transitive usein mind.

JL

Paul Frank  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Paul Frank

Subject: Re: to "recreate"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For recreate, Webster's 1828 gives "1. To refresh after toil; to reanimate,
as languid spirits or exhausted strength; to amuse or divert in weariness";
the American Heritage 2000 edition gives "To take recreation"; WordNet 2
gives "play, recreate -- (engage in recreational activities rather than
work; occupy oneself in a diversion; "On weekends I play"; "The students all
recreate alike'' )." See http://www.onelook.com/ and enter "recreate."

Paul
______________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation
from Chinese: humanities and the social sciences
from German, French, and Spanish: sinology
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
e-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Jun  9 14:18:32 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:18:32 -0400
Subject: Poorness
Message-ID: 

        The lastest OED appeals list asks for any examples of poorness (n.:  poverty, indigence) that interdate 1797 - 1932.  Here's an example from the New York Surrogate's Court in 1911:

        "Considering the poorness of the estate, in this instance, and the miserable condition of the widow, there was no necessity for the expensive transport and burial in New York, or for the new casket procured by the brother on the arrival of the body."

In re Moran's Estate, 134 N.Y.S. 968, 973 (N.Y. Sur. 1911).

John Baker

From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  9 14:25:25 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:25:25 -0400
Subject: Origin of "Back to Square One"
Message-ID: 

If I were capable of shame I might feel guilty about this but Fred's note
invites this response: I hope they are beginning their investigation at
square one.

Page Stephens

> [Original Message]
> From: Fred Shapiro 
> To: 
> Date: 6/9/2005 7:23:28 AM
> Subject: Origin of "Back to Square One"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro 
> Subject:      Origin of "Back to Square One"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> The OED has launched a high-profile appeals list directed at eliciting
> antedatings and etymological discoveries for a small roster of important
> terms, in conjuntion with a forthcoming BBC television show.  One of the
> items on the list is "back to square one" (1960).  JSTOR yields the
> following antedating, which is a very interesting one because it makes the
> provenance of the phrase quite clear:
>
> "The writer ... has the problem of maintaining the interest of a reader
> who is being always sent back to square one in a sort of intellectual game
> of snakes and ladders."
>         _Economic Journal_, volume 62, page 411 (1952)
>
> Fred R. Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  9 16:27:50 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:27:50 -0700
Subject: dialect dictionary fiction
Message-ID: 

from the Stanford Report (faculty/staff newspaper), 6/8/05, "2005
Wallace Stegner Fellows named":

New Stegner Fellows in fiction

...Rita Mae Reese of Madison, Wis., holds degrees from Florida State
University and the University of Wisconsin.  Reese will work on a
novel about a woman doing fieldwork for a regional dictionary in
Appalachia.

From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Jun  9 16:55:31 2005
From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
In-Reply-To: <200506090430.j58L6O7W275640@f05n16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:03 AM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>Hmmm... But wouldn't Carbondale host a bevy of students from
>[Northern-or- Mid-]Southern Illinois who would have fronted?

Approximately a third of SIU students stem from the greater Chicago region,
another third from the Carbondale region (including St. Louis), and the
final third from everywhere else, including international.  Carbondale is a
tiny island of melange in the middle of more standard south of I-70
southern midwest dialect similar to that found in southern Indiana (right
Dennis?).  Alas, I've been gone from C'dale long enough that I no longer
have intuitions about whether positive 'anymore' is prevalent there, but it
wouldn't surprise me if Rich R. had picked it up one place or another,
perhaps from his colleagues and students there.
Just to muddy the waters, Dennis Frantz is an alum of SIU also.  But the
Northern Cities vowel shift hasn't reached Carbondale, except for the
imports from Chicago.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan 
Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology,
         and Associate Professor of English
Linguistics Program                     Phone Numbers
Department of English                   Computing and Information
Technology:  (313) 577-1259
Wayne State University                  Linguistics (English):  (313) 577-8621
Detroit, MI, 48202                      C&IT Fax: (313) 577-1338

From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Jun  9 17:05:29 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:05:29 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609124341.02e25ef8@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

Please remember that, at least for phonology, it won't do to put
Carbondale together with metropolitan St. Louis, where the Northern
Cities Shift is (strangely) present. (See Jill Goodheart's 2004 MSU
Linguistics MA thesis "I'm no Hoosier.")

The NCS is not only not in Carbondale (except among the Chicago area
students), it ain't going there either.

Positive anymore is innovative rather than well established in
strongly South Midland areas. Hanging around Carbondale would not
have provided sufficient input for it to take in my opinion.

dInIs

>At 12:03 AM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>Hmmm... But wouldn't Carbondale host a bevy of students from
>>[Northern-or- Mid-]Southern Illinois who would have fronted?
>
>Approximately a third of SIU students stem from the greater Chicago region,
>another third from the Carbondale region (including St. Louis), and the
>final third from everywhere else, including international.  Carbondale is a
>tiny island of melange in the middle of more standard south of I-70
>southern midwest dialect similar to that found in southern Indiana (right
>Dennis?).  Alas, I've been gone from C'dale long enough that I no longer
>have intuitions about whether positive 'anymore' is prevalent there, but it
>wouldn't surprise me if Rich R. had picked it up one place or another,
>perhaps from his colleagues and students there.
>Just to muddy the waters, Dennis Frantz is an alum of SIU also.  But the
>Northern Cities vowel shift hasn't reached Carbondale, except for the
>imports from Chicago.
>
>Geoff
>Geoffrey S. Nathan 
>Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology,
>         and Associate Professor of English
>Linguistics Program                     Phone Numbers
>Department of English                   Computing and Information
>Technology:  (313) 577-1259
>Wayne State University                  Linguistics (English):  (313) 577-8621
>Detroit, MI, 48202                      C&IT Fax: (313) 577-1338

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  9 19:47:40 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:47:40 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 01:05 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>Please remember that, at least for phonology, it won't do to put
>Carbondale together with metropolitan St. Louis, where the Northern
>Cities Shift is (strangely) present. (See Jill Goodheart's 2004 MSU
>Linguistics MA thesis "I'm no Hoosier.")
>
>The NCS is not only not in Carbondale (except among the Chicago area
>students), it ain't going there either.
>
>Positive anymore is innovative rather than well established in
>strongly South Midland areas. Hanging around Carbondale would not
>have provided sufficient input for it to take in my opinion.
>
>dInIs

This is true in southern Ohio too (and in southern Indiana, I'm sure).  Our
North Midland (central Ohio in this case) students and faculty have
positive 'anymore', but it's just starting to come in in South
Midlanders.  On the other hand, 'needs/wants/likes' + past participle is
more generally Midland, though it appears to have originated in the South
Midland/Appalachian Scotch-Irish population.

Beverly Olson Flanigan
Associate Professor of Linguistics
Ohio University
Athens, OH  45701
1-740-593-4568

>>At 12:03 AM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>>Hmmm... But wouldn't Carbondale host a bevy of students from
>>>[Northern-or- Mid-]Southern Illinois who would have fronted?
>>
>>Approximately a third of SIU students stem from the greater Chicago region,
>>another third from the Carbondale region (including St. Louis), and the
>>final third from everywhere else, including international.  Carbondale is a
>>tiny island of melange in the middle of more standard south of I-70
>>southern midwest dialect similar to that found in southern Indiana (right
>>Dennis?).  Alas, I've been gone from C'dale long enough that I no longer
>>have intuitions about whether positive 'anymore' is prevalent there, but it
>>wouldn't surprise me if Rich R. had picked it up one place or another,
>>perhaps from his colleagues and students there.
>>Just to muddy the waters, Dennis Frantz is an alum of SIU also.  But the
>>Northern Cities vowel shift hasn't reached Carbondale, except for the
>>imports from Chicago.
>>
>>Geoff
>>Geoffrey S. Nathan 
>>Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology,
>>         and Associate Professor of English
>>Linguistics Program                     Phone Numbers
>>Department of English                   Computing and Information
>>Technology:  (313) 577-1259
>>Wayne State University                  Linguistics (English):  (313)
>>577-8621
>>Detroit, MI, 48202                      C&IT Fax: (313) 577-1338
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>        Asian and African Languages
>Wells Hall A-740
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office: (517) 353-0740
>Fax: (517) 432-2736

From simon at IPFW.EDU  Thu Jun  9 19:52:31 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:52:31 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
Message-ID: 

Positive anymore is very much on the move, west through the Rockies and
on to the coast.

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 6/9/2005 2:47 PM >>>
At 01:05 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>Please remember that, at least for phonology, it won't do to put
>Carbondale together with metropolitan St. Louis, where the Northern
>Cities Shift is (strangely) present. (See Jill Goodheart's 2004 MSU
>Linguistics MA thesis "I'm no Hoosier.")
>
>The NCS is not only not in Carbondale (except among the Chicago area
>students), it ain't going there either.
>
>Positive anymore is innovative rather than well established in
>strongly South Midland areas. Hanging around Carbondale would not
>have provided sufficient input for it to take in my opinion.
>
>dInIs

This is true in southern Ohio too (and in southern Indiana, I'm sure).
Our
North Midland (central Ohio in this case) students and faculty have
positive 'anymore', but it's just starting to come in in South
Midlanders.  On the other hand, 'needs/wants/likes' + past participle
is
more generally Midland, though it appears to have originated in the
South
Midland/Appalachian Scotch-Irish population.

Beverly Olson Flanigan
Associate Professor of Linguistics
Ohio University
Athens, OH  45701
1-740-593-4568

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  9 20:59:53 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:59:53 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus aunt
and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
isn't used yet).

Beverly

At 03:52 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>Positive anymore is very much on the move, west through the Rockies and
>on to the coast.
>
>beth
>
>beth lee simon, ph.d.
>associate professor, linguistics and english
>indiana university purdue university
>fort wayne, in 46805-1499
>u.s.
>voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
>email simon at ipfw.edu
>
>
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 6/9/2005 2:47 PM >>>
>At 01:05 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
> >Please remember that, at least for phonology, it won't do to put
> >Carbondale together with metropolitan St. Louis, where the Northern
> >Cities Shift is (strangely) present. (See Jill Goodheart's 2004 MSU
> >Linguistics MA thesis "I'm no Hoosier.")
> >
> >The NCS is not only not in Carbondale (except among the Chicago area
> >students), it ain't going there either.
> >
> >Positive anymore is innovative rather than well established in
> >strongly South Midland areas. Hanging around Carbondale would not
> >have provided sufficient input for it to take in my opinion.
> >
> >dInIs
>
>This is true in southern Ohio too (and in southern Indiana, I'm sure).
>Our
>North Midland (central Ohio in this case) students and faculty have
>positive 'anymore', but it's just starting to come in in South
>Midlanders.  On the other hand, 'needs/wants/likes' + past participle
>is
>more generally Midland, though it appears to have originated in the
>South
>Midland/Appalachian Scotch-Irish population.
>
>Beverly Olson Flanigan
>Associate Professor of Linguistics
>Ohio University
>Athens, OH  45701
>1-740-593-4568

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  9 23:11:38 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:11:38 -0400
Subject: Back to square one; Fwd: NY City Council and a rubber stamp
 (Henry Stern, 1965)
In-Reply-To: <006c01c56cf8$8cc66a70$7901a8c0@fcrcdmn1.net>
Message-ID: 

BACK TO SQUARE ONE--Also, try (square) dancing.
...
FWIW:

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry J. Stern 
To: bapopik at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:38:41 -0400
Subject: Re: NY City Council and a rubber stamp (Henry Stern, 1965)

Please call me at 212-564-4441 for an answer.       StarQuest

----- Original Message -----
From: bapopik at aol.com
To: StarQuest at nycivic.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Fwd: NY City Council and a rubber stamp (Henry Stern, 1965)

 When did you say this quote? Do you have a newspaper (e.g., Daily News) citation for it?
...
Barry Popik
www.barrypopik.com
contributing editor, Yale Dictionary of Quotations

-----Original Message-----
From: bapopik at AOL.COM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Sent: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:13:40 -0400
Subject: NY City Council and a rubber stamp (Henry Stern, 1965)

Henry Stern was the Parks Commissioner and now leads NY Civic. He can be
contacted here:
...
http://www.nycivic.org/
StarQuest at nycivic.org.
...
...
In 1965 (I can't find the quote then, but ask him), Stern said that the New York
City COuncil was less than a rubber stamp, because "a rubber stamp makes an
impression."
...
...
...
Tragedy of the Council
839 words
14 January 2004
The New York Sun
English
Copyright 2004 The New York Sun, One SL, LLC. All rights reserved.

Last week, on the occasion of being unanimously re-elected speaker of the City
Council, Gifford Miller delivered an address to the body in which he - however
unintentionally - demonstrated the truth of that famous crack by former Parks
Commissioner and ex-Council Member Henry Stern that the only difference between
the council and a rubber stamp is that a stamp at least leaves an impression.
...
...
Poll Confirms Ferrer's Fall; Mayor, Fields Are All Smiles
ANDREW WOLF
945 words
28 April 2005
The New York Sun
Yesterday, I paraphrased a great quote about the New York City Council being
less than a rubber stamp because at least a rubber stamp leaves an impression.

Lest anyone think that I was clever enough to come up with that jewel on my own,
allow me to disabuse you of that impression. The brilliant author of that
observation is Henry Stern, the former parks commissioner who himself served as
council member-at-large from the borough of Manhattan. Mr. Stern came up with
this oft-quoted phrase more than 40 years ago, a description still as fresh as
the morning dew.
...
...
Moskowitz Misses the Mark
ANDREW WOLF
852 words
18 November 2003
The New York Sun
The president of the UFT, Randi Weingarten, arrived at Thursday's hearing with
the head of the city's Central Labor Council, Assemblyman Brian McLaughlin, and
a Democratic power broker, Howard Wolfson, in tow. Presumably, they were there
to stare down the committee members. Did you forget, Ms. Weingarten? This is the
City Council, the legislative body that the former parks commissioner, Henry
Stern, said is less effective than a rubber stamp - because at least a rubber
stamp leaves an impression.
...
...
Metropolitan Desk; B
City Council Wakes Up but Still Lags
By ALAN FINDER
2,409 words
29 January 1988
The New York Times
A celebrated bit of lore was invoked by many people trying to describe how
poorly regarded the Council was. Henry J. Stern, now the Parks and Recreation
Commissioner, characterized the body this way when he first ran for the Council,
unsuccessfully, in 1965: ''The Council is less than a rubber stamp, because a
rubber stamp at least leaves an impression.''
...
...
CITY; As He Leaves, Vallone Scorns Calls for Change; Looks Back With Pleasure on
His Record
DIANE CARDWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 24,
2001. p. F4 (1 page) :
Even Henry J. Stern, the former council member and current parks commissioner
who once said that the Council was less than a rubber stamp because even a
rubber stamp makes an impression, allowed that under Mr. Vallone the Council had
"made some progress on dealing with substantive issues."

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  9 23:16:01 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:16:01 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture: Origin of "the whole nine
 yards"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----Original Message-----
From: heritage heritage 
To: Bapopik at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:17:26 +0100
Subject: Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture: Origin of "the whole nine yards"

Good question ... and one that has bugged this writer for years as well.

I am an American who has lived in Scotland for the last few years. While in the States, the saying "the whole nine yards" was quite common. When a Scotsman visiting me many years ago asked for the genesis of the phrase, I could not tell him.

So started a journey into "the whole nine yards" - not just by me but by a few others.

Surprisingly, we came up with many of the same explanations that you have. But, like you, we have never arrived with the clear answer.

Queries to a few experts here in Scotland also came up blank, so I am afraid we cannot help you in your quest.

Best of luck!

Regards.

Heritage
scotsman.com
108 Holyrood Road
Edinburgh  EH8 8AS
+44 (0) 131 620 8367

heritage at scotsman.com

>>>  05/15/05 01:30am >>>
Just yesterday, I found a Scottish origin of "the whole nine yards," the great American etymological mystery. I posted information to the American Dialect Society list and to my website. Can The Scotsman and its readers help?
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/879/summary-capt-richard-strattons-1955-attestation
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/880/the-scotsmans-kilt

Barry Popik

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From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun  9 23:42:41 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:42:41 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
Message-ID: 

The spirit of this phrase is at least 12 or 15 years older than 1972.
I recall in the late 1950s or possibly very early 1960s a guest on a
late night talk show (Jack Paar's) who had written a book on how he had
made a million in Wall Street.  This may have been the title of his
book, in fact.  Before taking to stock speculating, he had been a
professonal ball-room dancer.  The guest who followed him said (in
effect) I've got some advice for that guy: don't sell your dancing
shoes.

In this case, the message was, don't count on this run of good luck
lasting, as opposed to don't count on being successful at all.  But
still. . . .

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 10 01:05:18 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:05:18 -0700
Subject: "I've served my time in Hell"
Message-ID: 

Well, Fred, it's time to turn in the old brain.  I have unearthed my photocopy of Camp's _Mexican Border Ballads_, and not only do I have your word to lean on, I see a note in my personal handwriting saying "Does _not_ contain 'Our Hitch in Hell.'"

I apologize for the bum steer.

The reference to the Third Wyoming should be in the text printed anonymously in Lomax & Lomax, _American Ballads & Folksongs_ (1934), which I haven't been able to dig out yet.  Obviously, this could be a false memory as well, so I'll say no more about it, especially since a 1934 text is unlikely to be of any use to you.

Altogether, this has been a chastening experience.

At least we have the 1917 version, yes?

Jon

Fred Shapiro  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: Re: "I've served my time in Hell"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> "Our Hitch in Hell." The author was Frank B. [Bernard] Camp (1882 -
> ?1967), and the poem appeared in his collection, _Mexican Border
> Ballads_ (Douglas, Ariz.: F. B. Camp, 1916). It was revised and
> reprinted in Camp's _American Soldier Ballads_ (L.A.: G. Rice & Sons,
> 1917). A Google search reveals that it was more than once adapted and
> passed on anonymously.

I have just obtained a photocopy of F. B. Camp, Mexican Border Ballads
(1916). In quickly looking through this I do not see "Our Hitch in Hell"
or anything resembling it in that book, assuming that all the pages were
photocopied properly. Is it possible that the above is mistaken?

Fred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 01:34:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:34:09 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050609165629.033e6e20@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 4:59 PM -0400 6/9/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus aunt
>and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
>isn't used yet).
>
>Beverly

I'd be somewhat surprised at that (not that it's present in
California, especially by the many midwestern transplants, but that
it's absent from Minnesota), given that as mentioned I heard it a lot
in Wisconsin from 1977 to 1981.

Larry

>At 03:52 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>Positive anymore is very much on the move, west through the Rockies and
>>on to the coast.
>>
>>beth
>>
>>beth lee simon, ph.d.
>>associate professor, linguistics and english
>>indiana university purdue university
>>fort wayne, in 46805-1499
>>u.s.
>>voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
>>email simon at ipfw.edu
>>
>>
>>>>>  flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 6/9/2005 2:47 PM >>>
>>At 01:05 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>>Please remember that, at least for phonology, it won't do to put
>>>Carbondale together with metropolitan St. Louis, where the Northern
>>>Cities Shift is (strangely) present. (See Jill Goodheart's 2004 MSU
>>>Linguistics MA thesis "I'm no Hoosier.")
>>>
>>>The NCS is not only not in Carbondale (except among the Chicago area
>>>students), it ain't going there either.
>>>
>>>Positive anymore is innovative rather than well established in
>>>strongly South Midland areas. Hanging around Carbondale would not
>>>have provided sufficient input for it to take in my opinion.
>>>
>>>dInIs
>>
>>This is true in southern Ohio too (and in southern Indiana, I'm sure).
>>Our
>>North Midland (central Ohio in this case) students and faculty have
>>positive 'anymore', but it's just starting to come in in South
>>Midlanders.  On the other hand, 'needs/wants/likes' + past participle
>>is
>>more generally Midland, though it appears to have originated in the
>>South
>>Midland/Appalachian Scotch-Irish population.
>>
>>Beverly Olson Flanigan
>>Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>Ohio University
>>Athens, OH  45701
>>1-740-593-4568

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 01:59:11 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:59:11 -0400
Subject: dialect dictionary fiction (and spongers)
In-Reply-To: <50226AD5-B7BC-425A-BC13-022669031707@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>from the Stanford Report (faculty/staff newspaper), 6/8/05, "2005
>Wallace Stegner Fellows named":
>
>New Stegner Fellows in fiction
>
>...Rita Mae Reese of Madison, Wis., holds degrees from Florida State
>University and the University of Wisconsin.  Reese will work on a
>novel about a woman doing fieldwork for a regional dictionary in
>Appalachia.

Wonder if she worked for DARE, as a number of grad students in
linguistics at UW have done.  If so, she would certainly know whereof
she writes.

One work her protagonist is not likely to encounter is "sponger" (as
applicable to resourceful dolphins rather than annoying humans).  A
WOTY candidate?
====================================
The New York Times
June 7, 2005 Tuesday
Science Desk; OBSERVATORY; F3
by Henry Fountain

Just What Mother Ordered

  Bottlenose dolphins in Shark Bay in western Australia have an
unusual way of searching for food. Some of them break off pieces of
sea sponge and wear them over their beaks like sheaths. These
''spongers,'' almost all female, then use their beaks to probe the
sea grasses looking for small fish and crustaceans.

  Researchers have concluded that this foraging-- an extremely rare
case of a marine mammal's using what is considered a tool -- does not
have a genetic or ecological basis. Rather, they report in The
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, it is a cultural
behavior, passed down from mother to daughter.

  ''We can make a very strong case that this is culturally
transmitted, socially learned behavior,'' said the lead author of the
study, Dr. Michael Krutzen of the University of Zurich.

  These dolphins are difficult to observe in the wild because the
waters are infested with sharks, said Dr. Krutzen, who conducted the
research with Dr. Janet Mann of Georgetown University and other
scientists while at the University of New South Wales in Australia.

  But the researchers noticed that females who did not use sponges
foraged in the same areas as spongers. So the practice is not a
function of habitat or other ecological conditions. (Spongers find
  better food, however, presumably because their beaks are protected
and because they can probe deeper into the grasses and sandy bottom).

  A genetic analysis using tissue samples from 185 dolphins, 13 of
them spongers, showed that it was highly unlikely that sponging was a
heritable trait. Other genetic analyses showed that the female
spongers were closely related, all descended from one original
sponger, an ''Eve'' who must have existed fairly recently. She
originated the practice and taught it to her daughters, who in turn
passed it on.

  Just one male sponger has been observed, Dr. Krutzen said. Why
aren't there more? Sponging tends to be a solitary activity that
requires a lot of time, he said, and bottlenose males are often too
busy chasing members of the opposite sex. ''If you were a male
sponger, you wouldn't get any females,'' Dr. Krutzen said.

GRAPHIC: Photo: Females in this family always wear sponges when
dining out. (Photo by Janet Mann)
===========================
So now it's not just Elaine who has to decide if her evening's dinner
companion is spongeworthy...

Larry

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 10 02:08:07 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:08:07 -0400
Subject: to =?utf-8?Q?=22recreate=22?=
In-Reply-To: <20050609124826.77318.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Perhaps. But we need to look aat the history.  MJ has been recreating
himself continually.  Perhaps now he will be able to recreate himself
continuously.

Jim

Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Fox News reports that should Michael Jackson be convicted, he will be confined to a "facility" whose gym will allow him to "recreate" daily.
>
> That means have some recreation.
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 02:30:19 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:30:19 -0400
Subject: a syntactic eggcorn?
Message-ID: 

 From an unsolicited postcard from Mike Dusa, who runs a local "Center
for Wrist and Hand Pain Relief"...

I'm told this is my "Last Chance To Get [My] FREE Wrist and Hand Pain
Severity Evaluation".  (I should complain to The Ethicist at the
Times--see Arnold's posting of 30 May--that this doesn't seem fair,
since they never gave me any earlier chances, but as a good
neo-Gricean I'd have to concede that my only chance is trivially my
last one.)  So anyway, the first sentence of this invitation reads

"If you have been suffering from the debilitating effects of carpal
tunnel syndrome you will never forgive yourself for hesitating and
calling my office to discover the benefits to you of cold laser
therapy!"

Well, I have no intention of calling Mr. Dusa, so at least I won't
have that regret to live with.

--Larry, wondering if The New Yorker still operates its "Words of One
Syllable Dept."

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 03:43:24 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:43:24 -0400
Subject: "Don't quit your day job" (1985)
In-Reply-To: <162eca81634570.1634570162eca8@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 7:42 PM -0400 6/9/05, George Thompson wrote:
>The spirit of this phrase is at least 12 or 15 years older than 1972.
>I recall in the late 1950s or possibly very early 1960s a guest on a
>late night talk show (Jack Paar's) who had written a book on how he had
>made a million in Wall Street.  This may have been the title of his
>book, in fact.  Before taking to stock speculating, he had been a
>professonal ball-room dancer.  The guest who followed him said (in
>effect) I've got some advice for that guy: don't sell your dancing
>shoes.
>
>In this case, the message was, don't count on this run of good luck
>lasting, as opposed to don't count on being successful at all.  But
>still. . . .
>
[***Etymythology alert***]

Of course, one variant was "Don't quit your day trade", but some of
those stock speculators ignored the warning.  Whence the origin of
the term "day trader".

Larry

From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Fri Jun 10 04:10:07 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:10:07 -0500
Subject: a whole "nuther"?
Message-ID: 

I have heard the expression before but never really thought much about it.  I heard someone on TV say today about the Miss America pageant that a "whole nother" generation of young women are watching the pageant.  What is this "whole nother"?

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 10 04:41:42 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:41:42 -0700
Subject: a whole "nuther"?
In-Reply-To: <005401c56d72$4a2fe7c0$e9c23ed1@burningdynamics>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:

> I have heard the expression before but never really thought much
> about it.  I heard someone on TV say today about the Miss America
> pageant that a "whole nother" generation of young women are
> watching the pageant.  What is this "whole nother"?

a recutting (or metanalysis) of "another", as "a" + "nother" instead
of "an" + "other".  in fact, a textbook example of a recutting that
hasn't become fully standard (unlike "apron" and "napkin").

it's been around for some time.  OED Online (Dec. 2003 revision) has
an entry for this "nother" (the second entry for "nother" as pronoun/
adjective).  the entry even specifically mentions "a whole nother".

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 10 09:25:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:25:13 -0400
Subject: "Indianizing" in football (1919)
Message-ID: 

Nothing to do with the "Redskins" debate!  Earlier cites can no doubt be
found, since the blocking technique apparently got its name from Pop
Warner's famed team at the Carlisle (Pa.) Indian School, starring Jim
Thorpe from 1908 to 1912.  The Harvard team was known for "Indianizing"
until the tactic was ruled illegal in 1920.

-----
1919 _N.Y. Times_ 14 Dec. S2/4 Casey is a past master of the trick which
is called "Indianizing." He can put a man out of a play by skillfully
throwing himself at him and hitting him with his body.
-----
1919 _N.Y. Times_ 19 Dec. 19/5 The practice at the cage as usual consisted
of tackling the dummy and Indianizing work.
-----
1920 _L.A. Times_ 15 Mar. I7/2 The next most important revisions were
those which will penalize "clipping" or "Indianizing" and roughing the
forward passer.
-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=435169
Harvard Crimson, November 17, 1927
After songs and cheers Coach Horween will speak, while "Tack" Hardwick,
whose "indianizing" was famous in the days of C. E. Brickley '15, will be
the last speaker to address the mass meeting.
"Indianizing" was a method of interfering used by the Carlisic [sic!]
Indian College teams, and Hardwick became exceptionally proficient in its
practice. When a player "Indianized" a runner, he threw his body across
the knees of his opponent in such a way as to take him completely out of
action.
-----
http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/CFHSN/CFHSNv08/CFHSNv08n2g.pdf
College Football Historical Society Newsletter, Feb. 1995, p. 13/3
[reprint of 1931 article from NEA wire service]
Casey will be remembered particularly for his spectacular running with the
ball. But he also was famous for his old style of tackling. "Indianizing,"
they called it then. A better name for it would have been "paralyzing."
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 10:32:07 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:32:07 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Ditz"
In-Reply-To: <200506100105.j5A15KKH024866@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

ditz (OED 1984)

1982 _People_ 12 July [article beginning on page 55] (Nexis)  Finally she
[Dyan Cannon] graduated to the Type A movie part she has been stuck with
ever since.  "The unhappy wife," she explains.  "You know: the 'neurotic
ditz.'  I played it well once, and they never forgot it."

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Jun 10 10:55:31 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:55:31 +0100
Subject: Antedating of "Ditz"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Fred Shapiro wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Fred Shapiro 
>Subject:      Antedating of "Ditz"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>ditz (OED 1984)
>
>1982 _People_ 12 July [article beginning on page 55] (Nexis)  Finally she
>[Dyan Cannon] graduated to the Type A movie part she has been stuck with
>ever since.  "The unhappy wife," she explains.  "You know: the 'neurotic
>ditz.'  I played it well once, and they never forgot it."
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
And further:

1978 Larry Kramer _Faggots_ (1986) 152: He hopes that ditz has seen it all.

JG

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 11:39:43 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:39:43 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
Message-ID: 

The OED's first citation is Sept. 1964.  The following provides earlier
evidence as well as an explanation of the etymology:

"The 'Ska' hits London --but they call it Blue Beat ... Towards the end of
the fifties the Jamaicans got keen on rhythm and blues, particularly a
record called 'No More Doggin' sung by Roscoe Gordon.  They got hold of
this beat, cheered it up a bit, added some cute lyrics and called it Ska
-- an onomatopoeic word for the sound the guitar made.  From 1959 onwards
this was all the rage.  We called it Blue Beat here [London, England]
because of the label it was issued on."
        Article by Maureen Cleave, Daily Gleaner (Kingston, Jamaica), 17
Mar. 1964, page 7

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 11:41:41 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:41:41 -0400
Subject: More on "Ska"
Message-ID: 

I forgot to mention that "ska" is one of the items in the OED/BBC Word
Hunt.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 11:50:57 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:50:57 -0400
Subject: Antedatings of "Smart Casual"
Message-ID: 

Here's another one from the OED/BBC Word Hunt:

smart casual (OED 1945)

1923 _N.Y. Times_ 15 Nov. 9 [advertisement by Gimbel's department store]
Suits that have the smart, casual air equalled only in the product of a
few expensive custom tailors.

1928 _L.A. Times_ 30 Sept. C25 [advertisement by Bullock's sportswear
store]  The wide fabric scarfs are flung over the shoulder, or hang in the
smart casual fashion of the gallant lady sketched.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 10 12:40:59 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:40:59 -0700
Subject: a whole "nuther"?
In-Reply-To: <005401c56d72$4a2fe7c0$e9c23ed1@burningdynamics>
Message-ID: 

another whole=> a 'nother whole => a whole 'nother

--- Janis Vizier Nihart  wrote:

> I have heard the expression before but never really
> thought much about it.  I heard someone on TV say
> today about the Miss America pageant that a "whole
> nother" generation of young women are watching the
> pageant.  What is this "whole nother"?
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 10 12:40:21 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:40:21 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-160)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 09:34 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>At 4:59 PM -0400 6/9/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus aunt
>>and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
>>isn't used yet).
>>
>>Beverly
>
>I'd be somewhat surprised at that (not that it's present in
>California, especially by the many midwestern transplants, but that
>it's absent from Minnesota), given that as mentioned I heard it a lot
>in Wisconsin from 1977 to 1981.
>
>Larry

It may be in Minnesota by now; I've been gone a long time.  But I listen
for these things every summer when I go up to visit, so I'll listen
again.  My nieces are pretty good barometers of language change.  Fritz,
you're in St. Paul, right?  Do you hear it there?

>>At 03:52 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>>Positive anymore is very much on the move, west through the Rockies and
>>>on to the coast.
>>>
>>>beth
>>>
>>>beth lee simon, ph.d.
>>>associate professor, linguistics and english
>>>indiana university purdue university
>>>fort wayne, in 46805-1499
>>>u.s.
>>>voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
>>>email simon at ipfw.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>  flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 6/9/2005 2:47 PM >>>
>>>At 01:05 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>>>Please remember that, at least for phonology, it won't do to put
>>>>Carbondale together with metropolitan St. Louis, where the Northern
>>>>Cities Shift is (strangely) present. (See Jill Goodheart's 2004 MSU
>>>>Linguistics MA thesis "I'm no Hoosier.")
>>>>
>>>>The NCS is not only not in Carbondale (except among the Chicago area
>>>>students), it ain't going there either.
>>>>
>>>>Positive anymore is innovative rather than well established in
>>>>strongly South Midland areas. Hanging around Carbondale would not
>>>>have provided sufficient input for it to take in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>dInIs
>>>
>>>This is true in southern Ohio too (and in southern Indiana, I'm sure).
>>>Our
>>>North Midland (central Ohio in this case) students and faculty have
>>>positive 'anymore', but it's just starting to come in in South
>>>Midlanders.  On the other hand, 'needs/wants/likes' + past participle
>>>is
>>>more generally Midland, though it appears to have originated in the
>>>South
>>>Midland/Appalachian Scotch-Irish population.
>>>
>>>Beverly Olson Flanigan
>>>Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>>Ohio University
>>>Athens, OH  45701
>>>1-740-593-4568

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 14:40:35 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:40:35 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Ditz"
Message-ID: 

> >
> >ditz (OED 1984)
> >
> >1982 _People_ 12 July [article beginning on page 55] (Nexis)
>  Finally
> >she [Dyan Cannon] graduated to the Type A movie part she has
> been stuck
> >with ever since.  "The unhappy wife," she explains.  "You know: the
> >'neurotic ditz.'  I played it well once, and they never forgot it."
> >
> >Fred Shapiro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> And further:
>
> 1978 Larry Kramer _Faggots_ (1986) 152: He hopes that ditz
> has seen it all.
>
> JG
>

And further still:
"Tempo People" Aaron Gold _Chicago Tribune_; Nov 17, 1976; pg. A2 col 1.
"She's no longer the erratic "ditz" she used to be, and her career is
blossoming, too."

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 15:27:45 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:27:45 -0500
Subject: OED/BBC Word Hunt: "bomber jacket"
Message-ID: 

OED/ Wordhunt has 1973.

[display advertisement for] The Broadway, _Los Angeles Times_, p. 22,
col 1.
"This three-piece outfit for junior consists of a bomber jacket, drape
trousers, and a squadron cap, decorated with "Flight Commander"
insignia."

From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 15:39:29 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:39:29 -0400
Subject: a whole "nuther"?
In-Reply-To: <236DC1EF-C865-4FCF-AC1C-CE081F81AD82@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>
>> I have heard the expression before but never really thought much
>> about it.  I heard someone on TV say today about the Miss America
>> pageant that a "whole nother" generation of young women are
>> watching the pageant.  What is this "whole nother"?
>
>
> a recutting (or metanalysis) of "another", as "a" + "nother" instead
> of "an" + "other".  in fact, a textbook example of a recutting that
> hasn't become fully standard (unlike "apron" and "napkin").
>
> it's been around for some time.  OED Online (Dec. 2003 revision) has
> an entry for this "nother" (the second entry for "nother" as pronoun/
> adjective).  the entry even specifically mentions "a whole nother".

I remember discussing this reanalysis in syntax classes in grad school,
in the mid 70s. I doubt it was new at that time, but that's as far back
as I personally can place it.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                    faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                        fax (203) 865-8963

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 15:44:33 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:44:33 -0400
Subject: "Ploughman's Lunch" Antedating & Explanation
Message-ID: 

Here is another one from the BBC/OED Word Hunt appeals list:

ploughman's lunch (OED 1970)

1964 _Los Angeles Times_ 12 July 46  Ploughman's Lunch, a giant open-face
sandwich served in England's pubs and inns, is an interesting start for
adventuring with imported cheeses. Centuries before it appeared in pubs,
the lunch was just that -- bread, robust slices of cheese and vegetables
eaten at the noontime pause by English farmers.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 15:53:56 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:53:56 -0400
Subject: Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Just to avoid duplication of work in case anyone other than me is
interested in working on the OED/BBC Word Hunt Appeals List, the following
are terms (in addition to the ones I have posted on ADS-L) for which I
have found antedatings:

something for the weekend
1986 from Nexis

Jaffa
1989 from Nexis

pass the parcel
1954 from Newspaperarchive

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 16:09:30 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:09:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "gay" (noun) (BBC Wordhunt)
Message-ID: 

Gay (n) OED/wordhunt has 1971

"Homosexual Revolution" By Nancy L. Ross. _The Washington Post, Times
Herald_ , Oct 25, 1969; pg. C1 (cite from jump on p. C2 col. 1)
"The reaction gap between gays and straights to these plays is further
illustrated by a new one entitled "And Puppy Dog Tails." "

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 16:21:40 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:21:40 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "nip and tuck"  (BBC Wordhunt)
Message-ID: 

Pennsylvania | Monessen | The Valley Independent | 1979-10-10 p. 19 col
1.
"Plastic surgery drama shows uplifting theme" by Joan Hanauer, UPI
Television Writer

"Lee Meriwether (of "Barnaby Jones"), a former New York model who now
runs her own Los Angeles agency, wants nip-and-tuck surgery on her
eyelids before confronting her lost but not forgotten former lover,
photographer Robert Vaughn."

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 16:55:05 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:55:05 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "snazzy"  (BBC Wordhunt)
Message-ID: 

 snazzy adj. OED/Wordhunt has 1932

Los Angeles Times; Dec 13, 1931; sec III, pg. 1, col 4.
"Trojans Turn to Terpsichore for Training Tips" by Mary Mayer.
"I had an idea, I actually did, what they meant, but they just followed
along like lambs to the slaughter, ab-so-lutely innocent, and looking so
snazzy."

Later on, in col 5, "snozzy" (not in OED):
"I mean they didn't know just how to act and every time they were
supposed to swing their partners, it was perfectly snozzy."

Also, "apple polish", also in col. 5. (v, not in OED):
"Miss Price, that's our instructor, you know, the one that is simply
adorable, well anyway, all the boys try to apple-polish her into giving
them a good grade."

Also, "snitzy" , p. 13, col 4 (Not in OED) (note "killing" as well)
"And you should have seen all those snitzy Liberal Arts students when
they found out.  It was just too killing."

From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Jun 10 17:26:59 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:26:59 -0500
Subject: blend "blown out of context"
Message-ID: 

In case someone collects these, I wanted to mention a syntactic blend I came
across in an online forum: "This is blown out of context".

The thread was discussing a quote from a celebrity whose choice of a
particular word had gotten people on the list riled up. So, the meaning was
clearly a blend of "taken out of context" and "blown out of proportion".

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 10 17:49:42 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:49:42 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:39:43 -0400, Fred Shapiro 
wrote:

>The OED's first citation is Sept. 1964.  The following provides earlier
>evidence as well as an explanation of the etymology:
>
>"The 'Ska' hits London --but they call it Blue Beat ... Towards the end
>of the fifties the Jamaicans got keen on rhythm and blues, particularly a
>record called 'No More Doggin' sung by Roscoe Gordon.  They got hold of
>this beat, cheered it up a bit, added some cute lyrics and called it Ska
>-- an onomatopoeic word for the sound the guitar made.  From 1959 onwards
>this was all the rage.  We called it Blue Beat here [London, England]
>because of the label it was issued on."
>        Article by Maureen Cleave, Daily Gleaner (Kingston, Jamaica), 17
>Mar. 1964, page 7

I just recently came across that article too but was disappointed to see
that the first recoverable mention of "ska" in the _Gleaner_ was actually
from a British source-- Maureen Cleave's article is reprinted from the
_Daily Express_. (Cleave would forever be remembered for an interview she
conducted for the _Evening Standard_ two years later, when John Lennon
told her the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus".)

Unfortunately, the _Gleaner_ at the time seems to have been directed at
Jamaica's slender white minority, so it apparently missed the first five
years of the ska "rage". It wasn't until ska had become popular in England
(Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop" was a huge hit there) that the _Gleaner_
took notice.  The next appearance of "ska" in the paper was less than a
week after Cleave's article on Mar. 23, when Minister of Development and
Welfare (and future Prime Minister) Edward Seaga announced that two US
music promoters were coming to hear "the 'Jamaican Ska' music which
originated in Western Kingston and is now breaking through in England as a
National craze."  By May the government was promoting ska as "the National
Sound" of Jamaica, and numerous ska bands were touring the US and the UK.

--Ben Zimmer

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 18:05:55 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:05:55 -0400
Subject: a whole "nuther"?
In-Reply-To: <20050610124059.99350.qmail@web50607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 5:40 AM -0700 6/10/05, James Smith wrote:
>another whole=> a 'nother whole => a whole 'nother

I don't see it that way.  I'm not convinced "a 'nother whole (thing)"
was really a factor in the reanalysis.  Evidence for this comes from
the fact that "whole" in "a whole nother thing" is essentially an
adverb modifying "nother", not an adjective modifying "thing".
Google counts show the following:

"a whole nother/nuther thing"   4082
"another whole thing"                 372

"a whole nother/nuther idea"       181
"another whole idea"                     17

Rather, given the starting point of "another thing" (3.2 million
hits), the reanalysis yields "a + nother", where "nother" is treated
(either naively or disingenuously) as though it were an adjective
comparable to "different".   Now analogously to the quite common "a
whole different thing" (16,100 hits), "a whole different idea", etc.,
substitution of equivalents yields "a whole nother thing".  The "a
'nother whole" stage need not be invoked to motivate this.

Larry

>
>--- Janis Vizier Nihart  wrote:
>
>>  I have heard the expression before but never really
>>  thought much about it.  I heard someone on TV say
>>  today about the Miss America pageant that a "whole
>>  nother" generation of young women are watching the
>>  pageant.  What is this "whole nother"?
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 10 18:40:07 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:40:07 -0400
Subject: a whole "nuther"?
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:39:29 -0400, Alice Faber 
wrote:

>Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>> it's been around for some time.  OED Online (Dec. 2003 revision) has
>> an entry for this "nother" (the second entry for "nother" as pronoun/
>> adjective).  the entry even specifically mentions "a whole nother".
>
>I remember discussing this reanalysis in syntax classes in grad school,
>in the mid 70s. I doubt it was new at that time, but that's as far back
>as I personally can place it.

OED's got "a whole nother" from 1963 (in _Word Study_), but N-archive can
place it 30 years earlier:

-----
1933 _Mansfield News_ (Ohio) 16 Nov. 3/2 I've lived a whole 'nother
lifetime in the last eighteen months.
[from "Love Denied" by Ethel Doherty and Louise Long]
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 19:14:32 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:14:32 -0500
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

>
> Just to avoid duplication of work in case anyone other than
> me is interested in working on the OED/BBC Word Hunt Appeals
> List, the following are terms (in addition to the ones I have
> posted on ADS-L) for which I have found antedatings:
>
> something for the weekend
> 1986 from Nexis
>

What does "something for the weekend" mean???

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 19:47:21 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:47:21 -0400
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D76DE51@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> What does "something for the weekend" mean???

Thanks to the beauty of electronic databases, I actually antedated this
without having the slightest idea what it means.  Subsequently I found out
it means "condom."  Ah, the British...

Fred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 19:52:43 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:52:43 -0500
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

>
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
> > What does "something for the weekend" mean???
>
> Thanks to the beauty of electronic databases, I actually
> antedated this without having the slightest idea what it
> means.  Subsequently I found out it means "condom."  Ah, the
> British...
>
> Fred
>
>
I figured it had something to do with sex.  Naughty buggers, those
Brits.

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Jun 10 20:02:14 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:02:14 +0100
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D76DE51@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

Bill Mullins wrote:

> What does "something for the weekend" mean???

It's the murmured question by the barber, "Something for the weekend,
sir?", as he's finished cutting your hair or shaving you, asking you
discreetly if you'd like to buy a condom (though he wouldn't have
used that word and indeed might not have known it in pre-HIV days).
The cultural implications of the phrase are considerable.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 20:11:14 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:11:14 -0500
Subject: Fudge factor
Message-ID: 

 OED has 1977 for "fudge factor"

"Today Pushes Spring Ahead by 18 Hours" Michigan | Ironwood | Ironwood
Daily Globe | 1956-02-29 p.12 col 2.
"Today is that fudge factor jammed into the calendar every four years to
allow for time we gain on the sun during our normal calendar year."

MIT students had the same idea, under different names, earlier:
_The Tech_, May 14, 1935, p. 2 col 3.
"A benevolent and learned young man down in North Carolina has been kind
enough to inform us of an addition to the list of local slang which we
presented in the Open House issue.  He informs us, that we failed to
mention a Banjo Constant, and what is worse, to distinguish between a
Banjo Constant and a Bugger Factor.  The latter it seems, is to be added
or subtracted, while the former is a multiplication constant.  Well, we
conducted a more or less intensive survey of the Institute.  And not a
student could we find who had ever heard of a Banjo Constant.  One
freshman remarked that we probably meant a Jones constant, which is a
provincialism of the Naval Academy."

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 10 20:16:35 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:16:35 -0400
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Quinion" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: FW: Antedatings for BBC List

> Bill Mullins wrote:
>
>> What does "something for the weekend" mean???
>
> It's the murmured question by the barber, "Something for the weekend,
> sir?", as he's finished cutting your hair or shaving you, asking you
> discreetly if you'd like to buy a condom (though he wouldn't have
> used that word and indeed might not have known it in pre-HIV days).
> The cultural implications of the phrase are considerable.
>
> --
> Michael Quinion

I once purchased in a coin deal a small tin, about one inch by two inches,
that had a picture of a Goodyear Airship on it(I live in Akron, OH. home of
Goodyear).  I would say from the graphics it was from the 1930's.  Inside
were two worthless coins.  The poor little 80-something lady who brought it
in had hoped the coins were worth something.  So I gave her $10., not
telling her that the coins were worthless.

Inside the lid of the tin it said something like "This tin contains two
'tourist tubes' made from Goodyear rubber."  I wonder if that ephemism
appears anywhere?

Sam Clements

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Jun 10 20:55:56 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:55:56 +0100
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Fred Shapiro wrote:

> Thanks to the beauty of electronic databases, I actually antedated this
> without having the slightest idea what it means.  Subsequently I found
> out it means "condom."  Ah, the British...

Now you know more about the background, please instruct me and other
Brits on this list. Is there really no equivalent American euphemism
like "something for the weekend"?

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 10 21:13:22 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:13:22 -0400
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <42AA0C6C.14461.2F13605@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Michael Quinion wrote:

> Now you know more about the background, please instruct me and other
> Brits on this list. Is there really no equivalent American euphemism
> like "something for the weekend"?

There are others on this list who know far more than I do about slang, but
let me answer as best I can.  I'm sure there are various euphemisms
for "condom" in American English, but I don't think there are any
elaborate ones like "something for the weekend" in general usage.  The
major euphemism in American English is the simpler "rubber."

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Jun 10 21:38:26 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:38:26 -0400
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

        In more formal contexts, especially in writing, I'd say that the major euphemism for condom historically has been "prophylactic," but it has largely passed out of use in recent years.

        I'm under the impression that other terms have not really caught on.  In the song Little Red Corvette, Prince refers to "horses - Trojans, some of them used."  Some people do use Trojans as a generic term for condoms, but I've never heard anyone else refer to them as horses.  Sometimes they are called gloves, but that seems to be mainly so people can say "no glove no love."  Even "rubbers," the once ubiquitous term, seems to be less prevalent now as people just calmly say "condoms."

        Did barbers really offer "something for the weekend," or was it just a cultural clich? that they did so?

John Baker

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Jun 10 21:46:24 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:46:24 -0700
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

I haven't heard 'rubber' for YEARS.  I don't think most of my students would know it and none would say it.  With the rise of AIDS, condom just became the most usual term. IN an earlier email (which doesn't seem to have appeared on ADS-L--probably lost in cyberspace), I gave another term:
party hat
Fritz

>>> fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU 06/10/05 02:13PM >>>
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Michael Quinion wrote:

> Now you know more about the background, please instruct me and other
> Brits on this list. Is there really no equivalent American euphemism
> like "something for the weekend"?

There are others on this list who know far more than I do about slang, but
let me answer as best I can.  I'm sure there are various euphemisms
for "condom" in American English, but I don't think there are any
elaborate ones like "something for the weekend" in general usage.  The
major euphemism in American English is the simpler "rubber."

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Carl.N.E.Burnett.03 at ALUM.DARTMOUTH.ORG  Fri Jun 10 22:13:04 2005
From: Carl.N.E.Burnett.03 at ALUM.DARTMOUTH.ORG (Carl N. E. Burnett 03)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:13:04 EDT
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
Message-ID: 

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From Carl.N.E.Burnett.03 at ALUM.DARTMOUTH.ORG  Fri Jun 10 22:35:19 2005
From: Carl.N.E.Burnett.03 at ALUM.DARTMOUTH.ORG (Carl N. E. Burnett 03)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:35:19 EDT
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
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From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 10 23:31:45 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:31:45 -0500
Subject: FW: Antedating of "gay" (noun) (BBC Wordhunt)
Message-ID: 

Jon had a computer glitch, this is forwarded on his behalf.

________________________________

        From: Jonathan Lighter [mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com] 
        Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 4:13 PM
        To: Mullins, Bill
        Subject: Re: Antedating of "gay" (noun) (BBC Wordhunt)

        Those BBC chaps should purchase their very own copy of HDAS I,
where they will find a half-dozen pre-1971 citations for "gay," n.

        If I do say so myself.

        JL

        "Mullins, Bill"  wrote:

                Gay (n) OED/wordhunt has 1971

                "Homosexual Revolution" By Nancy L. Ross. _The
Washington Post, Times
                Herald_ , Oct 25, 1969; pg. C1 (cite from jump on p. C2
col. 1)
                "The reaction gap between gays and straights to these
plays is further
                illustrated by a new one entitled "And Puppy Dog Tails."
"

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
        http://mail.yahoo.com 

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 10 15:43:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:43:11 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e1t91q@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

I'm pleased to see that "jack off," an old friend that I first met in
St. Louis in 1949 ["If your uncle Jack was stuck on a telephone pole,
would you help your uncle jack off?"], is still alive and kicking, in
print, at least, and has not been entirely swept away by the
Johnny-come-lately (to my vocabulary, anyhow) "jerk off."

-Wilson

On Jun 8, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> We've discussed the (apparently growing) range of positive "anymore"
> on the list in the past, and it's clear that we're not just in Kansas
> anymore, or even the midwest more generally.  (There is, for example,
> the evidence of Joe Benigno, WFAN sports radio host and echt New
> Yorker, that I've cited on the list.)  But one place I *don't*
> associate it with is insular small towns in Maine, and I was thus
> struck by a couple of occurrences of fronted (and hence non-polarity)
> "anymore" in Richard Russo's Pulitzer Prize-winning epic novel
> _Empire Falls_ set in the (fictional) town of that name.
>
> Here are two examples, transcribed more or less accurately from the
> audiotape of the book:
>
> "She put the three cushions down on seats only a third of the way up
> the bleachers because anymore her feet always hurt from standing all
> day."
>
> "Anymore, all he wanted to do was jack off to the porn he downloaded
> off the internet"
>
> I see that (according to his bio for his 2004 Colby College honorary
> degree) while Russo grew up in upstate NY (also not what I think of
> as true "anymore" country--at least Rochester certainly wasn't in the
> 1960s) he got his PhD at Arizona State and has taught at Penn State
> and Southern Illinois (the last of which is definitely in the heart
> of positive "anymore"-land, while the first two may be at least
> partly in the zone) before coming to Colby (Waterville, Maine) in
> 1991.  Could it be that Russo absorbed the construction as a ruralism
> somewhere along the way, possibly in Carbondale (but maybe earlier in
> Tempe), and unconsciously put it in the mouths of characters who have
> never been out of Maine?  (Actually, as the two passages make clear,
> the "anymore"s in question are not actually *uttered* by the
> characters in question but associated with them in style indirect
> libre; at least in this novel, Russo--while not using a narrator as
> such--presents most scenes from the point of view of a particular
> character.)  Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
> Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
> colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
> or I'd have noticed.
>
> Larry
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 10 15:10:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:10:51 -0400
Subject: "Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e2qi5p@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

dInIs,

Constructions like "can't nobody" are so ubiquitous that I simply
assumed that there had to be a corresponding "proper-English" form, to
wit, "can't anybody," especially since "can't anybody" was used by my
late father, LlB, later JD, from the University of Wisconsin, and is
still used by my mother, MPSW from Washington University in St. Louis.
That is, their speech patterns had to have been influenced by the
"proper English" of white people in environments in which there were no
other black people to talk to. Hence, if my parents used "can't
anybody," then "can't anybody" must be "proper."

If I may use the Jeff Foxworthy series now being telecast by Comedy
Central as my source, I can state without fear of contradiction that
your intuition that the "can't nobody" construction is not unique to BE
is unequivocally correct.

-Wilson

On Jun 8, 2005, at 5:07 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: "Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson,
>
> I've also always assumed that "Can't anybody..." is also nonstandard,
> although its uniqueness to AAVE is very questionable.
>
> Note that interrogative "Can't anybody/somebody" constructions are
> pure whitebread dandy (like that better than "standard"?), so let's
> not hear from nobody about them. We ain't talkin bout them.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>> Naturally, you are correct, as usual, dInIs. It's only that this is
>> the
>> first and only time that I have ever heard this particular
>> construction
>> used in real life as opposed to its use as an attention-grabber in the
>> old commercial. A minor quibble: wouldn't "grammatical" be a better
>> descriptor than "standard"?
>>
>> How do you feel about a structure like "doesn't anybody ...?" Many
>> times, I've heard constructions like, "She's so mean and evil that
>> *can't anybody* stay with her." I considered them to be both
>> grammatical *and* standard - "can't nobody" would be non-standard -
>> until I heard a lecture in which Haj Ross pointed out that such
>> constructions are peculiar to BE. [And perhaps to other non-standard
>> dialects? Haj didn't say and I don't know.]
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>>> Subject:      Re: "Nobody doesn't like Sarah Lee"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Perfectly standard multiple negation; now, if she had said "Doesn't
>>> nobody want to be...." that would have been a complete makeover of
>>> another sort.
>>>
>>> dInIs
>>>
>>>
>>>> Heard on today's Maury Povich Show, spoken by a woman who'd had a
>>>> complete makeover: "Nobody doesn't want to be with me, now!"
>>>>
>>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dennis R. Preston
>>> University Distinguished Professor
>>> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>>>         Asian and African Languages
>>> Wells Hall A-740
>>> Michigan State University
>>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>> Office: (517) 353-0740
>>> Fax: (517) 432-2736
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
> Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 11 01:22:58 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:22:58 -0700
Subject: blend "blown out of context"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 10, 2005, at 10:26 AM, Matthew Gordon wrote:

> In case someone collects these, I wanted to mention a syntactic
> blend I came
> across in an online forum: "This is blown out of context".

stanford grad student liz coppock continues to collect these, and i
save most of them that come past me.  so we're always happy to see
some more.

arnold

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 11 02:31:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:31:29 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42ut2e$28aisd@mx21.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 5, 2005, at 3:03 AM, Sam Clements wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Sam Clements 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
>> Of course. It will be my honor.
>>
>> In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
>> to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
>> black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
>> nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
>> not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.
>
> Her name was Gloria Loring.  The show, titled "The Singers," was aired
> on
> ABC on May 11, 1968.   But your characterization of the show as
> "devoted to
> the careers of two unknown female song stylists" is incorrect.

It's not *my* characterization. it's the way that the show was
advertised and presented. Maybe you had to have been there and seen the
TV program and seen the TV ads preceding it. That program was memorable
for only one thing: equating Aretha with a nobody, despite the fact
that Aretha had long been somebody. What could have motivated that, do
you think? The fact that ABC's boss was Aretha's number-one fan,
perhaps? And why would Aretha have acceded to such an insulting
juxtaposition? We could have been wrong, but, at the time, most black
people figured it was that she needed the exposure to white America.

-Wilson Gray

> Every major
> newspaper I can read on Proquest make it clear that Aretha was big
> time

That is precisely my point. Oh, I'm sorry. You mean that old newspaper
stories have persuaded you that she was considered big time by *white*
people.

> ("Respect" had won her a Grammy

And, of course, given that the Grammy-winners are selected by means of
a vote by the general public, it naturally  follows, as the night the
day, that Aretha was clearly the darling of the general white-American
public.

>  earlier that year) and Loring was a
> newbie.

The word that you're searching for is "nobody."

>
>> The unknown black singer was Aretha, if you can believe that. Given
>> that her career went back to at least 1964 and probably farther, I was
>> stunned to discover that, clearly, no one at ABC/CBS/NBC had ever
>> heard of her.
>
> Her career went back to at least 1961, when she was recording for
> Coumbia.
> Trouble was, Columbia tried to make her a pop/jazz performer.  It
> didn't
> work. When she switched to the Atlantic label, and they promoted her
> r&b
> talents, she became very popular.

Yes.

>
>
>> Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the average person on
>> the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave a
>> Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line by
>> 1967. Q.E.D.
>
> Are you saying that all of her records were sold only to blacks?  On
> March
> 19th of 1967, "I Never Loved A Man" topped out at #9 on Billboard's
> Top 40.
> On May 6th of that year(a year before that poor "unknown" was in that
> tv
> show), "Respect" topped out at #1.   No doubt at least one or two
> "white"
> stations were playing her songs.

No. Not sold only, merely sold primarily. Clearly, her name meant
nothing in particular to ABC's execs. "White" doesn't require quotes,
given that, in Los Angeles, for example, *all* radio and television
stations were and, perhaps, still are owned and operated by whites.
However, "black" stations does require quotes, since, at that time,
there were few, if any, radio stations owned and/or operated by blacks,
not even those stations that were directed toward a black audience and
advertised themselves as being "First in sports and news! First in
rhythm and blues!" or as playing everything "from be-bop to ballaaads
and blues to boo-GEE!" Till the '60's, there were no black DJ's in the
Los Angeles basin. and very likely none anywhere else on the Left
Coast.

>
>
>> Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>> living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way that
>> things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>> lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>> practice?
>> -Wilson
>
> Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly call
> lynching
> of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."

How many would it take to make it commonplace, in your opinion? Very
likely, you recall the lynching in Tyler, Texas, in which a black man
was tied to the back bumper of a pickup truck and dragged to his death.
That's enough to motivate me to say that the lynching of blacks is
*still* a commonplace practice, given that the victim was lynched on a
whim or "jes fuh fee-you-in," as we black Texans say.

-Wilson Gray

>
> I notice that Ben has replied better than I can.
>
> Sam Clements
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 11 02:42:35 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:42:35 -0700
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

You learn something every day...

The New Yorker, famously careful about both facts and usage, printed
the following, in Elizabeth Kolbert's Letter from Alaska: "Last
words: A language dies" (about Eyak), 6 June 2005, p. 59:

-----
The project was largely the work of a former TV reporter from
Anchorage named Laura Bliss Spaan.  She first heard about the Eyak in
1992, when she was sent to Cordova to cover the Ice Worm Festival.
"When Eyak gets ahold of you, it's really hard to escape," she
explained to me.
-----

The "ahold" caught my eye.

The OED treats the relevant idiom as "get (a) hold of", though it has
some cites for the spellings "a-hold" and "ahold".  MWDEU notes that
verbs other than "get" are possible ("catch" and "take", for
instance) and that when the preposition following "hold" is anything
other than "of", the "a" is required:
   get a hold over / *get hold over
   catch a hold on/*catch hold on
(my examples), but that "V hold of" does not have "a", "in the idiom
of the majority of English speakers and writers from Shakespeare to
the present" (p. 59).  "Since the late 19th century, the minority
idiom with "a" seems to have been gaining in respectability, but it
is still primarily a spoken rather than a written form."

The version with "a" doesn't sound at all colloquial/nonstandard/etc.
to *me*, and when "hold" is modified the "a" is required:
   get a firm/quick/tenuous/... hold of
  *get firm/quick/tenuous/... hold of

In any case, what really caught my eye was the *spelling*: "ahold"
rather than "a hold".  Since the "a" here seems pretty clearly to be
the indefinite article, the spelling "ahold" strikes me as similar to
the spelling "alot" for "a lot".  Consequently, my first reading of
the quote from Spaan was that Kolbert was using eye dialect --
representing Spaan as the sort of person who would spell "a hold of"
as "ahold of".  In the context, that seemed gratuitous.

Then I thought that maybe this was one (presumably from Kolbert
herself) that just got past the copy editors.

But then I checked out MWDEU and discovered piles of examples of
"ahold" from quoted speech.  In fact, MWDEU maintains: "When
transcribed from speech, [the idiom] is generally styled as one word,
_ahold_."

Well, I didn't know that.  It still looks odd to me.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 11 02:47:00 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:47:00 -0400
Subject: Magnet schools (Philadelphia, 1965)
Message-ID: 

Yeah, so it's not from New York. The school "glossary" below is a good one for edu-speak.
...
...
...
http://www.insideschools.org/home/glossary.php
Magnet schools
Schools that receive government funds for special programs that could attract students from many neighborhoods and thereby achieve racial integration. Offerings range from studies in music to programs in law.

...
...
...
(OED)
magnet school Educ. (orig. U.S.), a publicly funded school designed to attract pupils from various areas or demographic groups through its superior facilities and courses, esp. one which offers specialist tuition in a particular subject alongside the standard curriculum.
1972 Sat. Rev. (U.S.) 5 Feb. 49/3 The new programs included..a network of ?*magnet? schools, each specializing in one academic area, such as space science or social studies, and drawing students from the whole city. 1991 Times Educ. Suppl. 8 Feb. 5/5 Magnet schools that offer a vocational or academic specialism are likely to be one of the radical ideas to be presented in the Conservative Party's election campaign.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
Philadelphia Maps Bold Plan To Solve City School Problem
By Gerald Grant Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Dec 24, 1965. p. A10 (1 page) :
One of the most sweeping changes urged in the Philadelphia report was creation of "magnet schools" that would have high-quality programs to attract and hold a racially integrated enrollment.

The magnet schools would be untracked, feature ungraded grouping and emphasize individualized instructional methods. Many of the new Federally funded programs would be concentrated in these schools.

They would also serve as focal points for experimentation, innovation and teacher training.
...
...
For Good Schools Try Live Politics
By Richardson Dilworth. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 21, 1966. p. A24 (1 page) :
We should also experiment with what we call the magnet school. Let me give you an example: There is a great need for a higher level of science teaching for selected youngsters. THis indicates the creation of a science high school which offers the finest possible pre-college science courses. But that school would also be a comprehensive high school to serve the neighborhood, and the science students would take their other academic courses right in with the regular high school students.

IN SHORT, the specialty attracts teachers and pupils from all over the city, and these specialty pupils take their general academic courses in the other part of the school, which is a comprehensive neighborhood high school. Magnets schools should also be set up for languages, for business training, and for the performing arts, among others.
...
...
PHILADELPHIA GETS SCHOOL AID GRANT
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 31, 1966. p. 36 (1 page) :
Eight Philadelphia schools will start programs of "exceptional excellence" next fgall with the aid of a $350,000 grant from the Carnegie Foundation.

Participating schools, at all grade levels, will be known as "magnet" schools in the hope that their programs will attract students and staff from throughout Philadelphia.

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 11 03:14:23 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:14:23 -0400
Subject: Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e8qklg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 10, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Baker, John wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Baker, John" 
> Subject:      Re: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         In more formal contexts, especially in writing, I'd say that
> the major euphemism for condom historically has been "prophylactic,"
> but it has largely passed out of use in recent years.

In the days before The Pill, "prophylactic" was at least as common as
"rubber" among black males. I also occasionally heard "safe" used with
the meaning "condom." "Trojan" and "Ramses" were the most popular -
well, the most-often mentioned in locker-room stories, at least -
brands, but neither name was generalized.

-Wilson Gray

>
>         I'm under the impression that other terms have not really
> caught on.  In the song Little Red Corvette, Prince refers to "horses
> - Trojans, some of them used."  Some people do use Trojans as a
> generic term for condoms, but I've never heard anyone else refer to
> them as horses.  Sometimes they are called gloves, but that seems to
> be mainly so people can say "no glove no love."  Even "rubbers," the
> once ubiquitous term, seems to be less prevalent now as people just
> calmly say "condoms."
>
>         Did barbers really offer "something for the weekend," or was
> it just a cultural clich? that they did so?
>
> John Baker
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 11 03:45:43 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:45:43 -0700
Subject: Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

Yes, we do have synonyms, but we have no allusively descriptive phrases of the sort Michael instances.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Antedatings for BBC List
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 10, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Baker, John wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Baker, John"
> Subject: Re: FW: Antedatings for BBC List
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In more formal contexts, especially in writing, I'd say that
> the major euphemism for condom historically has been "prophylactic,"
> but it has largely passed out of use in recent years.

In the days before The Pill, "prophylactic" was at least as common as
"rubber" among black males. I also occasionally heard "safe" used with
the meaning "condom." "Trojan" and "Ramses" were the most popular -
well, the most-often mentioned in locker-room stories, at least -
brands, but neither name was generalized.

-Wilson Gray

>
> I'm under the impression that other terms have not really
> caught on. In the song Little Red Corvette, Prince refers to "horses
> - Trojans, some of them used." Some people do use Trojans as a
> generic term for condoms, but I've never heard anyone else refer to
> them as horses. Sometimes they are called gloves, but that seems to
> be mainly so people can say "no glove no love." Even "rubbers," the
> once ubiquitous term, seems to be less prevalent now as people just
> calmly say "condoms."
>
> Did barbers really offer "something for the weekend," or was
> it just a cultural clich? that they did so?
>
> John Baker
>

__________________________________________________
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From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 11 03:57:08 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:57:08 -0400
Subject: Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <49da33e06334171f6a0470c2ba170d1e@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

>>         In more formal contexts, especially in writing, I'd say that
>>the major euphemism for condom historically has been "prophylactic,"
>>but it has largely passed out of use in recent years.
>
>In the days before The Pill, "prophylactic" was at least as common as
>"rubber" among black males. I also occasionally heard "safe" used with
>the meaning "condom." "Trojan" and "Ramses" were the most popular -
>well, the most-often mentioned in locker-room stories, at least -
>brands, but neither name was generalized.

Where I grew up (Detroit), there were several popular brands including the
above and IIRC "Spartan". I'm a young bloke, so I can remember only back to
1960 or maybe a hair earlier. In my experience only "Trojan" was
genericized (like "Kleenex" for "facial tissue"). "Prophylactic" and
"rubber" were common; "condom" was recognizable but not usual; I heard
"safe" maybe once or twice. I did not hear "raincoat" or "balloon" or other
jocular terms then.

And then there was the eggcorn "cum-drum", which I only heard once or twice
from older fellows reminiscing about WW II days.

-- Doug Wilson

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 11 03:59:57 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:59:57 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"

> On Jun 5, 2005, at 3:03 AM, Sam Clements wrote:

>> Poster:       Sam Clements 
>> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Wilson Gray" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>
>>
>>> Of course. It will be my honor.
>>>
>>> In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
>>> to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
>>> black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
>>> nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and have
>>> not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.
>>
>> Her name was Gloria Loring.  The show, titled "The Singers," was aired
>> on
>> ABC on May 11, 1968.   But your characterization of the show as
>> "devoted to
>> the careers of two unknown female song stylists" is incorrect.
>
> It's not *my* characterization. it's the way that the show was
> advertised and presented. Maybe you had to have been there and seen the
> TV program and seen the TV ads preceding it. That program was memorable
> for only one thing: equating Aretha with a nobody, despite the fact
> that Aretha had long been somebody. What could have motivated that, do
> you think? The fact that ABC's boss was Aretha's number-one fan,
> perhaps? And why would Aretha have acceded to such an insulting
> juxtaposition? We could have been wrong, but, at the time, most black
> people figured it was that she needed the exposure to white America.
>
> -Wilson Gray

You're right--I don't remember watching the show, even though I was 24 at
the time.  I certainly knew who Aretha was,  but I guess it's always
possible that no one at ABC did.  They just picked her name out of a hat.
If you ask me to decide on how the show portrayed Ms. Franklin based on your
37-year-old memory and my reading of a few dozen newspaper reviews and
stories from the time, then I go with the print cites.

 >> Every major
>> newspaper I can read on Proquest make it clear that Aretha was big
>> time
>
> That is precisely my point. Oh, I'm sorry. You mean that old newspaper
> stories have persuaded you that she was considered big time by *white*
> people.

I don't get the point that you're making.  She was considered big time by
all of America.

>> ("Respect" had won her a Grammy
>
> And, of course, given that the Grammy-winners are selected by means of
> a vote by the general public, it naturally  follows, as the night the
> day, that Aretha was clearly the darling of the general white-American
> public.
>

All I meant was that she was well-known.  She wasn't some unknown.

>>  earlier that year) and Loring was a
>> newbie.
>
> The word that you're searching for is "nobody."
>
Actually, I wasn't searching.  I used the word I meant.  Aretha had arrived,
Loring was a newbie on the scene.  That juxtaposition was part of the show.
Oh!  I forgot--you saw the show and Aretha was presented as a nobody.  My
bad.

>>> Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the average person on
>>> the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave a
>>> Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line by
>>> 1967. Q.E.D.
>>

Perhaps it was clear to you.  I think that the term you were searching for
was not Q.E.D. but rather IMO.

Sam Clements

From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Jun 11 04:00:01 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:00:01 -0500
Subject: Positive Anymore
In-Reply-To: <20050610124704.8A6DC4C8B@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

A Minnesotan, born and bred, I remember first hearing positive anymore from
my mother-in-law, who was living in Columbus OH in the early '70s, but came
from the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia.

If it is prevalent in the Twin Cities now, I haven't noticed it.

--Tom Kysilko, St Paul

At 6/10/2005 08:40 AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>At 09:34 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
> >At 4:59 PM -0400 6/9/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >>Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus aunt
> >>and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
> >>isn't used yet).
> >>
> >>Beverly
> >
> >I'd be somewhat surprised at that (not that it's present in
> >California, especially by the many midwestern transplants, but that
> >it's absent from Minnesota), given that as mentioned I heard it a lot
> >in Wisconsin from 1977 to 1981.
> >
> >Larry
>
>It may be in Minnesota by now; I've been gone a long time.  But I listen
>for these things every summer when I go up to visit, so I'll listen
>again.  My nieces are pretty good barometers of language change.  Fritz,
>you're in St. Paul, right?  Do you hear it there?

   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 11 04:42:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:42:11 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e7ghff@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 10, 2005, at 7:39 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro 
> Subject:      Etymology of "Ska"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The OED's first citation is Sept. 1964.  The following provides earlier
> evidence as well as an explanation of the etymology:
>
> "The 'Ska' hits London --but they call it Blue Beat ... Towards the
> end of
> the fifties the Jamaicans got keen on rhythm and blues, particularly a
> record called 'No More Doggin' sung by Roscoe Gordon.

The name is actually _Rosco_ Gordon, without a final "e." No More
Doggin' was released in 1952. However, according to the All Music
Guide, this record was not released in Jamaica till 1959.

>   They got hold of
> this beat, cheered it up a bit, added some cute lyrics and called it
> Ska
> -- an onomatopoeic word for the sound the guitar made.

Further according to the AMG, "[S]ka ... took its name [from] the sound
of this particular [piano] shuffle, [called 'Rosco's Rhythm'], as it
sounded being played on an electric guitar (ska-ska-ska)."

-Wilson Gray

>   From 1959 onwards
> this was all the rage.  We called it Blue Beat here [London, England]
> because of the label it was issued on."
>         Article by Maureen Cleave, Daily Gleaner (Kingston, Jamaica),
> 17
> Mar. 1964, page 7
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>

From Carl.N.E.Burnett.03 at ALUM.DARTMOUTH.ORG  Sat Jun 11 04:46:48 2005
From: Carl.N.E.Burnett.03 at ALUM.DARTMOUTH.ORG (Carl N. E. Burnett 03)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:46:48 EDT
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
Message-ID: 

--- You wrote:
Or am I wrong about Maine? I'm pretty sure not one of
> Stephen King's Maine-bound locals, whatever their Down East
> colloquialisms, have ever let a positive "anymore" past their lips,
> or I'd have noticed.
--- end of quote ---

Born & bred in Maine in the 1980s/'90s, and I've never heard it anywhere in the state.

Carl

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 11 04:47:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:47:28 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$37jano@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 10, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: Etymology of "Ska"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:39:43 -0400, Fred Shapiro
> 
> wrote:
>
>> The OED's first citation is Sept. 1964.  The following provides
>> earlier
>> evidence as well as an explanation of the etymology:
>>
>> "The 'Ska' hits London --but they call it Blue Beat ... Towards the
>> end
>> of the fifties the Jamaicans got keen on rhythm and blues,
>> particularly a
>> record called 'No More Doggin' sung by Roscoe Gordon.  They got hold
>> of
>> this beat, cheered it up a bit, added some cute lyrics and called it
>> Ska
>> -- an onomatopoeic word for the sound the guitar made.  From 1959
>> onwards
>> this was all the rage.  We called it Blue Beat here [London, England]
>> because of the label it was issued on."
>>        Article by Maureen Cleave, Daily Gleaner (Kingston, Jamaica),
>> 17
>> Mar. 1964, page 7
>
> I just recently came across that article too but was disappointed to
> see
> that the first recoverable mention of "ska" in the _Gleaner_ was
> actually
> from a British source-- Maureen Cleave's article is reprinted from the
> _Daily Express_. (Cleave would forever be remembered for an interview
> she
> conducted for the _Evening Standard_ two years later, when John Lennon
> told her the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus".)
>
> Unfortunately, the _Gleaner_ at the time seems to have been directed at
> Jamaica's slender white minority, so it apparently missed the first
> five
> years of the ska "rage". It wasn't until ska had become popular in
> England
> (Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop" was a huge hit there)

As it was here, reaching no.2 in 1964. The singer herself appeared on
Dick Clark's American Bandstand.

-Wilson Gray

>  that the _Gleaner_
> took notice.  The next appearance of "ska" in the paper was less than a
> week after Cleave's article on Mar. 23, when Minister of Development
> and
> Welfare (and future Prime Minister) Edward Seaga announced that two US
> music promoters were coming to hear "the 'Jamaican Ska' music which
> originated in Western Kingston and is now breaking through in England
> as a
> National craze."  By May the government was promoting ska as "the
> National
> Sound" of Jamaica, and numerous ska bands were touring the US and the
> UK.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 11 05:29:20 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:29:20 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:42:11 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>On Jun 10, 2005, at 7:39 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>
>> "The 'Ska' hits London --but they call it Blue Beat ... Towards the
>> end of the fifties the Jamaicans got keen on rhythm and blues,
>> particularly a record called 'No More Doggin' sung by Roscoe Gordon.
>
>The name is actually _Rosco_ Gordon, without a final "e." No More
>Doggin' was released in 1952. However, according to the All Music
>Guide, this record was not released in Jamaica till 1959.
>
>> They got hold of
>> this beat, cheered it up a bit, added some cute lyrics and called it
>> Ska -- an onomatopoeic word for the sound the guitar made.
>
>Further according to the AMG, "[S]ka ... took its name [from] the sound
>of this particular [piano] shuffle, [called 'Rosco's Rhythm'], as it
>sounded being played on an electric guitar (ska-ska-ska)."

According to the liner notes of the CD anthology _This is Reggae Music:
The Golden Era 1960-1975_, three other R&B releases from '59-'60 shaped
the sound of ska: Fats Domino's "Be My Guest" (1959), Wilbert Harrison's
"Kansas City" (1959), and Rosco Gordon's "Surely I Love You" (1960). But
Gordon should get primary credit for popularizing the shuffle rhythm.

Another theory about the origin of "ska" is that it was shortened from
"skavoovie", the cryptic greeting of bass player Cluett Johnson -- his
group, Clue J and His Blues Blasters, is credited with the earliest ska
instrumentals.  But I once read an interview with the group's guitarist,
Ernest Ranglin, disputing this story.

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 11 05:46:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:46:29 -0400
Subject: Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e9g16a@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Jon,

That sentence is sheer academic poetry. You rock, dude! ;--)

-Wilson

On Jun 10, 2005, at 11:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: Antedatings for BBC List
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yes, we do have synonyms, but we have no allusively descriptive
> phrases of the sort Michael instances.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Antedatings for BBC List
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Baker, John wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Baker, John"
>> Subject: Re: FW: Antedatings for BBC List
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> In more formal contexts, especially in writing, I'd say that
>> the major euphemism for condom historically has been "prophylactic,"
>> but it has largely passed out of use in recent years.
>
> In the days before The Pill, "prophylactic" was at least as common as
> "rubber" among black males. I also occasionally heard "safe" used with
> the meaning "condom." "Trojan" and "Ramses" were the most popular -
> well, the most-often mentioned in locker-room stories, at least -
> brands, but neither name was generalized.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>> I'm under the impression that other terms have not really
>> caught on. In the song Little Red Corvette, Prince refers to "horses
>> - Trojans, some of them used." Some people do use Trojans as a
>> generic term for condoms, but I've never heard anyone else refer to
>> them as horses. Sometimes they are called gloves, but that seems to
>> be mainly so people can say "no glove no love." Even "rubbers," the
>> once ubiquitous term, seems to be less prevalent now as people just
>> calmly say "condoms."
>>
>> Did barbers really offer "something for the weekend," or was
>> it just a cultural clich? that they did so?
>>
>> John Baker
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 11 06:23:17 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:23:17 -0400
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
Message-ID: 

http://www.barrypopik.com/article/997/taxi-the-word-taxicab-and-the-yellow-color
...
http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/06/09/taxi_cabs_might_be_redesigned.php
June 09, 2005
Taxi Cabs Might Be Redesigned
The Design Trust for Public Space is working with the Taxi and Limousine Commission to see new designs for taxi cabs, to celebrate 100 years of taxi cabs in 2007.
...
...
...
Does anyone have anything for the "yellow" origin? Were the first taxis red?

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 11 07:23:27 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:23:27 -0400
Subject: "Benign Neglect" (1970)
Message-ID: 

Did Fred neglect this one?
...
Barry Popik
...
...
(PROQUEST)
'Malign neglect' of sewers forces our money down drain
Modesto Bee, CA - Jun 8, 2005
... In his pre-senatorial days, and in quite a different context, Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously coined the phrase "benign neglect." The temptation is ...
...
...
'Benign Neglect' on Race Is Proposed by Moynihan; Moynihan Urges 'Benign Neglect' of Racial Issues
By PETER KIHSS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 1, 1970. p. 1 (2 pages)
...
...
(JSTOR)
Power to the People or the Profession? The Public Interest in Public Interest Law
Edgar S. Cahn; Jean Camper Cahn
The Yale Law Journal > Vol. 79, No. 5 (Apr., 1970), pp. 1005-1048
Pg. 1042:
One can already see this danger manifesting itself in public interest law in the legal professon's version of "benign neglevt."

From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Jun 11 08:21:49 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:21:49 +0100
Subject: FW:      Antedatings for BBC List
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296C2C@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

> Did barbers really offer "something for the weekend," or was it just a
> cultural clich? that they did so?

That's a good question. My uncertain memory says that it it was known
to me decades ago (my wife concurs in believing it was around in the
1960s at least), one whose meaning we all knew. But I've never had a
barber actually say this to me.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: 
Web: 

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 11 12:42:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:42:25 -0700
Subject: Antedatings for BBC List
Message-ID: 

"Cundrum" used to be a regional (?) variant.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: Antedatings for BBC List
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> In more formal contexts, especially in writing, I'd say that
>>the major euphemism for condom historically has been "prophylactic,"
>>but it has largely passed out of use in recent years.
>
>In the days before The Pill, "prophylactic" was at least as common as
>"rubber" among black males. I also occasionally heard "safe" used with
>the meaning "condom." "Trojan" and "Ramses" were the most popular -
>well, the most-often mentioned in locker-room stories, at least -
>brands, but neither name was generalized.

Where I grew up (Detroit), there were several popular brands including the
above and IIRC "Spartan". I'm a young bloke, so I can remember only back to
1960 or maybe a hair earlier. In my experience only "Trojan" was
genericized (like "Kleenex" for "facial tissue"). "Prophylactic" and
"rubber" were common; "condom" was recognizable but not usual; I heard
"safe" maybe once or twice. I did not hear "raincoat" or "balloon" or other
jocular terms then.

And then there was the eggcorn "cum-drum", which I only heard once or twice
from older fellows reminiscing about WW II days.

-- Doug Wilson

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 11 12:55:05 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:55:05 -0700
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
Message-ID: 

No help, of course, but before 1965 or '66 NYC cabs came in various colors. At that time yellow was standardized to help distinguish medallion cabs from "gypsies," for which yellow was proscribed.

JL

bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.barrypopik.com/article/997/taxi-the-word-taxicab-and-the-yellow-color
...
http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/06/09/taxi_cabs_might_be_redesigned.php
June 09, 2005
Taxi Cabs Might Be Redesigned
The Design Trust for Public Space is working with the Taxi and Limousine Commission to see new designs for taxi cabs, to celebrate 100 years of taxi cabs in 2007.
...
...
...
Does anyone have anything for the "yellow" origin? Were the first taxis red?

__________________________________________________
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From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Jun 11 14:28:52 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:28:52 -0400
Subject: Positive Anymore
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20050610225114.02599678@pop.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

Sorry, Tom--I confused you with Fritz!  But I agree--I've never heard it up
there, in my family or in friends I see in Mpls every summer.  Like "needs"
+ past participle, it's pretty noticeable; if I were to use it
(artificially, like Larry), it'd be commented on right away.

At 12:00 AM 6/11/2005, you wrote:
>A Minnesotan, born and bred, I remember first hearing positive anymore from
>my mother-in-law, who was living in Columbus OH in the early '70s, but came
>from the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia.
>
>If it is prevalent in the Twin Cities now, I haven't noticed it.
>
>--Tom Kysilko, St Paul
>
>At 6/10/2005 08:40 AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>At 09:34 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>> >At 4:59 PM -0400 6/9/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>> >>Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus
>> aunt
>> >>and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
>> >>isn't used yet).
>> >>
>> >>Beverly
>> >
>> >I'd be somewhat surprised at that (not that it's present in
>> >California, especially by the many midwestern transplants, but that
>> >it's absent from Minnesota), given that as mentioned I heard it a lot
>> >in Wisconsin from 1977 to 1981.
>> >
>> >Larry
>>
>>It may be in Minnesota by now; I've been gone a long time.  But I listen
>>for these things every summer when I go up to visit, so I'll listen
>>again.  My nieces are pretty good barometers of language change.  Fritz,
>>you're in St. Paul, right?  Do you hear it there?
>
>
>   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>           http://www.visi.com/~pds

From tb5fab at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jun 11 15:03:29 2005
From: tb5fab at GMAIL.COM (Patti Kurtz)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:03:29 -0500
Subject: Positive Anymore
In-Reply-To: <42aa6777.509b8f85.6faf.ffffdeebSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I use positive anymore all the time (native of Pittsburgh)  But my North
Dakota students give me weird looks, so it's ungrammatical for them here
in Minot, anyway.

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University

Tom Kysilko wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Tom Kysilko 
>Subject:      Re: Positive Anymore
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>A Minnesotan, born and bred, I remember first hearing positive anymore from
>my mother-in-law, who was living in Columbus OH in the early '70s, but came
>from the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia.
>
>If it is prevalent in the Twin Cities now, I haven't noticed it.
>
>--Tom Kysilko, St Paul
>
>At 6/10/2005 08:40 AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>
>>At 09:34 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At 4:59 PM -0400 6/9/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus aunt
>>>>and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
>>>>isn't used yet).
>>>>
>>>>Beverly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I'd be somewhat surprised at that (not that it's present in
>>>California, especially by the many midwestern transplants, but that
>>>it's absent from Minnesota), given that as mentioned I heard it a lot
>>>in Wisconsin from 1977 to 1981.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>>
>>>
>>It may be in Minnesota by now; I've been gone a long time.  But I listen
>>for these things every summer when I go up to visit, so I'll listen
>>again.  My nieces are pretty good barometers of language change.  Fritz,
>>you're in St. Paul, right?  Do you hear it there?
>>
>>
>
>
>   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>           http://www.visi.com/~pds
>
>
>

--

Straker - Good. Let me give you a piece of advice Paul. Don't ever judge
a situation by the end of a conversation.

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 11 20:25:16 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:25:16 EDT
Subject: Charter Schools (1700s? 1998?) and misc.
Message-ID: 

_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1000/charter-school_
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1000/charter-school)
...
I'm in the process of adding to this. Surely, "charter school" has changed
since the OED's definition. This is an important education buzzword that much
immediately be revised.
...
CHARTER SCHOOLS--1,890,000 Google hits
...
...
OT MISC.: My Week, or Henry Stern & roaches and no A.C.
...
I went to work on Friday (yesterday), and it was the normal ten hours of 9
a.m. to 7 p.m. For added pleasure, as usual, there was no air conditioning. And
 no respondent could take it for five minutes, and you're there for TEN
HOURS,  like the piece of crap you always are. And the guy in the next room (less
senior  to me) has air conditioning. And he just changed rooms. And I asked him
why he  changed rooms. And he told me that a roach was crawling on his
keyboard and  another roach had crawled up his leg. And maybe Grant Barrett or Andy
Smith  thinks this is my personality, but you just hadda be there, because it
was all  goddamn unbelievable.
...
So it was lunch break, and I made that call to Henry Stern to ask him about
that "rubber stamp" quote. He paraphrased it and said that it was in his 1965
city council campaign literature. And then he said, I saw your petitions for
Manhattan Borough President. And I said yeah, and I told him about my
letter-to-the-editor about "bodega" that was in Friday's New York Sun. And then  I
started to tell him the amazing story about Audrey Munson (our Civic Fame),
and how I got plagiarized in an entire book in 1999, and how it was all
displayed in his Parks Department's Arsenal Gallery in March 2000, and how I had
demanded to speak with him then, and how I'm now lobbying for her postage stamp
on the tenth anniversary of her death. And he stopped me before all that and
invited me to lunch.
...
There's much more, but if anyone is willing to translate my website into
Spanish and Chinese for pay, give me an e-mail. The website got 4,000 hits on
Wednesday and 4,800 hits on Thursday, and I have to thank Grant Barrett very
much and start to pay him (it has been attached to  www.doubletongued.org).

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 11 21:11:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:11:21 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e9pds6@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

I've just gotten through - or should that be "got done"? ;-) -
comparing No More Doggin' to My Boy Lollipop and the influence of the
rhythm of the former upon the rhythm of the latter is quite clear.
However, FWIW, I didn't hear anything on the latter that sounded like a
guitar going "ska-ska-ska." Perhaps listening to more than one ska is
necessary. ;-) The Cluett Johnson story sounds like a variant of the
story of Dizzy Gillespie's invention of the term "be-bop," from back in
the day of be-bop glasses, moonshades, and blue-suede shoes.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 11, 2005, at 1:29 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: Etymology of "Ska"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:42:11 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 10, 2005, at 7:39 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>>
>>> "The 'Ska' hits London --but they call it Blue Beat ... Towards the
>>> end of the fifties the Jamaicans got keen on rhythm and blues,
>>> particularly a record called 'No More Doggin' sung by Roscoe Gordon.
>>
>> The name is actually _Rosco_ Gordon, without a final "e." No More
>> Doggin' was released in 1952. However, according to the All Music
>> Guide, this record was not released in Jamaica till 1959.
>>
>>> They got hold of
>>> this beat, cheered it up a bit, added some cute lyrics and called it
>>> Ska -- an onomatopoeic word for the sound the guitar made.
>>
>> Further according to the AMG, "[S]ka ... took its name [from] the
>> sound
>> of this particular [piano] shuffle, [called 'Rosco's Rhythm'], as it
>> sounded being played on an electric guitar (ska-ska-ska)."
>
> According to the liner notes of the CD anthology _This is Reggae Music:
> The Golden Era 1960-1975_, three other R&B releases from '59-'60 shaped
> the sound of ska: Fats Domino's "Be My Guest" (1959), Wilbert
> Harrison's
> "Kansas City" (1959), and Rosco Gordon's "Surely I Love You" (1960).
> But
> Gordon should get primary credit for popularizing the shuffle rhythm.
>
> Another theory about the origin of "ska" is that it was shortened from
> "skavoovie", the cryptic greeting of bass player Cluett Johnson -- his
> group, Clue J and His Blues Blasters, is credited with the earliest ska
> instrumentals.  But I once read an interview with the group's
> guitarist,
> Ernest Ranglin, disputing this story.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 11 22:08:12 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:08:12 EDT
Subject: Encylopedia of New York State (2005); Re: Etymology of "Ska"
Message-ID: 

SKA--Newspaperarchive is doing more of the Jamaica Gleaner. Stay tuned. No
use to rush these things.
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE DAILY E-MAIL)
Whats Next: The following titles are scheduled to be available at
_NewspaperARCHIVE.com_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/myDesktopDefault.aspx)  within
2-to 4 weeks: Sooner Than  Later: The (Scottsbluff, Nebraska) Star Herald -
2005. Coming  Soon: The (Albert Lea, Minnesota) Freeborn County Standard - 1890;
The (Frederick, Maryland) News - no dates specified; The  (Connellsville,
Pennsylvania) Daily Courier - 1910s & 1970s. Down  The Line: The Frederick
(Annapolis, Maryland) Post - 1940s, 1990s;  The (Connellsville, Pennsylvania) Daily
Courier - no dates specified; The  (Chicago, Illinois) Daily Herald - 1900s;
The (Kingston, Jamaica)  Gleaner - 1960s.
...
...
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK STATE (2005)
...
This just came out. Nancy Groce has huge balls. I'm saying, NANCY GROCE HAS
HUGE BALLS. (O.K., so maybe you missed the Daily Show skit with Ed Helms and
George Bush's balls. But I'm telling you, Nancy Groce has huge balls!)
...
Several years ago, I e-mailed the Encyclopedia of New York State people and
asked if I could help on "the Big Apple" and New York food. I got no  response.
...
Gerald Cohen did the entry in the Encyclopedia of New York City. Surely,
this was read. And surely, as any scholar would, they would contact Gerald
Cohen. But no.
...
It's amazing how bad these "big books" can be in parts, and I'm also  talking
about you, Encyclopedia of Chicago.
...
But back to Nancy Groce's balls. It's there for everyone to see, on page  176:
...
_Big Apple._ Nickname for New York City. Its origins are unknown, but might
be related to New York State's reputation as an apple-growing region. The
phrase  first appeared in print in _The Wayfarer in New York_ (1909) where editor
Edward  S. Martin used it in an extended metaphor about New York City's
relationship to  the Midwest. In the 1920s black stable hands at New Orleans
racetracks used the  term, and John J. FitzGerald, sports reporter for the _Morning
Telegraph_, heard  it and appropriated it for his racing column, "Around the
Big Apple." In 1937  bandleader Tommy Dorsey had a modest hit with a dance
called "The Big Apple," by  lyricist Buddy Bernier and composer Bob Emmerich. The
term and its variants were  widely used by black jazz nusicians during the
1930s and 1940ws, as in Charlie  Parker's 1947 recording "Scrapple from the
Apple." By the 1950s the term had  become passe, and it dropped out of popular usage
until 1971. That year Charles  Gillett, president of the New York Convention
and Visitors Bureau, revived it as  part of a successful advertising campaign.
Since the 1970s the Big Apple has  been the most recognized nickname ofr New
York City.
...
Groce, Nancy. _New York: Songs of the City (New York: Billboard Books,  1999).
...
Nancy Groce.
...
...
Huge balls. Humongous balls.
...
Nancy Groce cites one book. Just one book. HER OWN BOOK!!!
...
Was the book even on this topic? NO!
...
Did she do any original research on this topic? NO!
...
Did someone else write a book on the topic? YES!
...
Who was that person? GERALD COHEN!
...
Did she or could she possibly have known this? Yes, because it was in the
Encyclopedia of New York City.
...
So she chose to ignore us, not even talk to us, not even cite us, and to
cite HER OWN BOOK. ("Songs of the City," which just happens to leave out
rap/hip-hop.)
...
By the way, the 1909 citation is not relevant, and "the Big Apple" is not
related to New York City as "an apple-growing region."
...'
So the bottom line is, my 'Big Apple" and "Windy City" work have now
appeared in the Encyclopedia of New York City, the Encyclopedia of Chicago, and  now
the Encyclopedia of New York State, and I've received no money and not a
single credit.
...
OK, on to the food section of this big book...

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 11 22:29:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:29:37 -0400
Subject: Encylopedia of New York State (2005); Re: Etymology of "Ska"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:08:12 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>SKA--Newspaperarchive is doing more of the Jamaica Gleaner. Stay tuned. No
>use to rush these things.

I believe the crucial years of the late '50s and early '60s have recently
been added to the _Gleaner_ archive.  They weren't there when I was
antedating "reggae" and "rocksteady" back in January, but I noticed them a
week or two ago.  The run looks reasonably complete now.

There's still the possibility that pre-1964 "ska" cites have evaded OCR
(lurking in concert ads or music listings), but I haven't come across
anything yet.  I'm not hopeful, since as I mentioned the _Gleaner_ seems
to have been directed at the white power elite in those days (particularly
before Jamaican independence in 1962).

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 12 00:07:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:07:48 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
Message-ID: 

Like many of my generation, I was first introduced to Louis Jordan's 1944
hit "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" via the Tom & Jerry cartoon
"Solid Serenade" (1946). (Jordan cowrote the song, his first million
seller, with Bill Austin.) I came across a much earlier example of "Is you
is or is you ain't" in a 1921 story by Octavus Roy Cohen, a Jewish writer
from South Carolina who wrote humorous black-dialect fiction:

-----
"Less Miserable" by Octavus Roy Cohen
_Chicago Tribune_, Sep. 25, 1921, (Magazine) p. 1/3
"What I asks you straight an' plain: Is you gwine loant me them two
dollars, or ain't you?"
"I ain't said I ain't."
"You ain't said you is."
"I ain't said nothin'."
"Well, I asks: Is you is or is you ain't?"
-----

Cohen wrote a similar exchange in a story the following year:

-----
"Fifty-Fifty Fifty" by Octavus Roy Cohen
_Chicago Tribune_, Nov. 26, 1922, (Magazine) p. 10/1
"But, Maudlin-- ain't we engage'?"
"I ain't said we ain't."
"But you ain't sayin' we is."
"I ain't sayin' nothin'."
"Well," desperately. "Is we is, or is we ain't?"
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 01:33:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:33:20 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Paleontology"
In-Reply-To: <200506120007.j5C07okS025230@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

palaeontology (OED3 1836)

1835 _Amer. Jrnl. Science & Arts_ 3 Jan. 283 ff. (American Periodical
Series)  There appeared in 1833, six numbers instead of four, of the
Annals of Mineralogy, Geology and Palaeontology, by MM. LEONHARD and
BRONN.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 12 01:42:20 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:42:20 -0400
Subject: FYI: Encyclopedia of New York State (continued)
Message-ID: 

BIG APPLE + NANCY GROCE--26 Google hits
BIG APPLE + BARRY POPIK--3,470 Google hits
...
I just read some more of the new Encyclopedia of New York State (May 2005). Audrey Munson (the popular model from Mexico, NY; now listed as one of her county's most famous citizens) is never mentioned. The first citation for "Saratoga potato" is 1885. I gave up reading more.
...
It's not mentioned that  John J. FitzGerald comes from Saratoga, New York. Nancy Groce never knew that!
...
The Google hits are incredible. Nancy Groce gets only 26 hits for "Big Apple"--and most of that is from me mentioning her book on New York City songs!
...
By the way, the general editor of the Encyclopedia of New York State (2005) also was an editor on the Encyclopedia of New York City (1995). Gerald Cohen should be pretty mad as well. We wuz robbed.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
The Big Apple: New York will be a nice town when it's finished
A plaque remaining from the Big Apple Night Club at west 135th Street and Seventh
Avenue ... Big Apple Corner at 54th Street and Broadway in Manhattan. ...
www.barrypopik.com/article/206/ new-york-will-be-a-nice-town-when-its-finished - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
...
The Big Apple: "PENNSYLVANIA 6-5000" (1940)
A plaque remaining from the Big Apple Night Club at west 135th Street and ...
all (as far as I can see) in Nancy Groce?s New York: Songs of the City (1999). ...
www.barrypopik.com/article/354/pennsylvania-6-5000-1940 - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
...
The Big Apple: "Manhattan" (1925) (not "I'll Take Manhattan")
Big Apple Corner at 54th Street and Broadway in Manhattan. RSS / Atom ... As Nancy
Groce writes in New York: Songs of the City (1999), oages 19-20: ...
www.barrypopik.com/article/ 352/manhattan-1925-not-ill-take-manhattan - 8k - Cached - Similar pages
...
The Big Apple: "Sam, You Made the Pants Too Long" (1932)
A plaque remaining from the Big Apple Night Club at west 135th Street and Seventh
... it was probably left out of Nancy Groce?s book of New York City songs. ...
www.barrypopik.com/article/ 752/sam-you-made-the-pants-too-long-1932 - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
...
The Big Apple: Gypsy Robe
A plaque remaining from the Big Apple Night Club at west 135th Street and Seventh
... By Nancy Groce In 1959 (Wrong year?ed.), Bill Bradley, a dancer in the ...
www.barrypopik.com/article/251/gypsy-robe - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
...
The Big Apple: Thoity Thoid and Thoid (33rd Street and Third Avenue)
Big Apple Corner at 54th Street and Broadway in Manhattan. ... by Nancy Groce:.
Songs written during the East Side?s seedier past include several that ...
www.barrypopik.com/article/35/ thoity-thoid-and-thoid-33rd-street-and-third-avenue - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
...
[PDF] Washington Gets a Taste of a Big Apple
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Washington Gets a Taste of a Big Apple. By THE NEW YORK TIMES ... "What this
festival does," said Nancy Groce, the exhibition's curator, "is it gives the ...
www.streetplay.com/smithsonian/pdf/20010704nyt.pdf - Similar pages
...
Amazon.com: About Barry A. Popik: Reviews
... accepted that John J. Fitz Gerald (who lived there 30 years) called NYC "the Big
Apple" in the ... New York: Songs of the City by Nancy Groce Edition: Hardcover. ...
www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2A9SIOO3QXWRS - 52k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
...
Amazon.com: About Barry A. Popik: Reviews
Three years ago, Mayor Giuliani signed my Big Apple Corner (W. 54th & Broadway)
bill into ... New York: Songs of the City by Nancy Groce Edition: Hardcover ...
www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ A2A9SIOO3QXWRS?_encoding=UTF8 - 57k - Cached - Similar pages
...
Gotham Gazette -- Favorite Books About New York
New York: Songs of the City by Nancy Groce. NYC Songs ... Dylan's earliest songs
have more to do with his initial troubles in the Big Apple than politics. ...
www.gothamgazette.com/books/groce.php - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 02:20:38 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:20:38 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Paranoid"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

paranoid, n. (OED 1922)

1921 _Jrnl. Amer. Inst. Criminal Law & Criminology_ XII. 373 (JSTOR)  The
presence of epileptics, mattoids, paranoids, paranoiacs, imbeciles and
sexual perverts in our prison populations is a menace.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Sun Jun 12 02:27:52 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:27:52 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
In-Reply-To: <42ab7ecd.325ed451.19cb.ffffcbedSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

And what is it that's supposed to be "humorous" in this fiction? Its
content or the fact that it's written in "black dialect"? Did Mr.
Cohen live long enough to become familiar with the "Carolina
Israelite"?

-Wilson Gray

On 6/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Like many of my generation, I was first introduced to Louis Jordan's 1944
> hit "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" via the Tom & Jerry cartoon
> "Solid Serenade" (1946). (Jordan cowrote the song, his first million
> seller, with Bill Austin.) I came across a much earlier example of "Is you
> is or is you ain't" in a 1921 story by Octavus Roy Cohen, a Jewish writer
> from South Carolina who wrote humorous black-dialect fiction:
>
> -----
> "Less Miserable" by Octavus Roy Cohen
> _Chicago Tribune_, Sep. 25, 1921, (Magazine) p. 1/3
> "What I asks you straight an' plain: Is you gwine loant me them two
> dollars, or ain't you?"
> "I ain't said I ain't."
> "You ain't said you is."
> "I ain't said nothin'."
> "Well, I asks: Is you is or is you ain't?"
> -----
>
> Cohen wrote a similar exchange in a story the following year:
>
> -----
> "Fifty-Fifty Fifty" by Octavus Roy Cohen
> _Chicago Tribune_, Nov. 26, 1922, (Magazine) p. 10/1
> "But, Maudlin-- ain't we engage'?"
> "I ain't said we ain't."
> "But you ain't sayin' we is."
> "I ain't sayin' nothin'."
> "Well," desperately. "Is we is, or is we ain't?"
> -----
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 12 02:53:00 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:53:00 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
Message-ID: 

> Did Mr. Cohen live long enough to become familiar with the "Carolina
>Israelite"?

>>-Wilson Gray
~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>
Was that Harry Golden (/For 2? Plain/)?  I had forgotten that soubriquet.
A. Murie

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 03:41:01 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:41:01 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:47 AM -0400 6/11/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>Unfortunately, the _Gleaner_ at the time seems to have been directed at
>>Jamaica's slender white minority, so it apparently missed the first
>>five
>>years of the ska "rage". It wasn't until ska had become popular in
>>England
>>(Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop" was a huge hit there)
>
>As it was here, reaching no.2 in 1964. The singer herself appeared on
>Dick Clark's American Bandstand.

There was *something* about those /l/s in the way she sang
"Lollipop"; can anyone help identify the relevant phonetic feature?
I can still hear it in my mind's ear 40 years later...

Larry (with no special /l/, alas)

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 03:47:22 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:47:22 -0400
Subject: positive "anymore"
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050609165629.033e6e20@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 4:59 PM -0400 6/9/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Yes, I noted here a couple of times that I heard it even in my 70-plus aunt
>and uncle in LA and San Diego (transplants from Minnesota, where AFAIK it
>isn't used yet).
>
>Beverly
OK, I'm ready to concede on empirical evidence from listees that
Beverly's impression is correct, and my guess (based on the proximity
of Minnesota to Wisconsin) is not.  Maybe next time Garrison Keillor
needs a shibboleth to distinguish Minnesotans from Cheeseheads, he
should tap this one.  Well, at least it appears that my impression of
Mainers (beyond the town limits of Richard Russo's Empire Falls)
being outside the isogloss is on firmer ground.

Larry

From Berson at ATT.NET  Sun Jun 12 04:02:57 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:02:57 -0400
Subject: Charter Schools (1700s? 1998?) and misc.
Message-ID: 

These two of course are not the 20th century sense, but they antedate the
OED2's 1763:

Boston Weekly News Letter, 1736 Jul 1, page 1 col. 1:
  Resolved, That two Charter Schools, with all convenient
speed, be erected [in Ireland].

New England Weekly Journal, 1739 August 28, page 1 col. 1 [title]:
A Diary of the Charter-School at Castle-Caulfield, of their Work and Food,
from the 26th of March 1739, to the 27th of April following.

Since OED2 says the Irish schools were established in 1733, there may be
slightly earlier instances.

Joel

At 6/11/2005 04:25 PM, you wrote:
>...
>I'm in the process of adding to this. Surely, "charter school" has changed
>since the OED's definition. This is an important education buzzword that much
>immediately be revised.
>...
>CHARTER SCHOOLS--1,890,000 Google hits

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 12 04:13:13 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:13:13 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>There was *something* about those /l/s in the way she sang
>"Lollipop"; can anyone help identify the relevant phonetic feature?
>I can still hear it in my mind's ear 40 years later...

I remember the song but I don't remember that.

A 1-minute sample of what I think is the right version can be played at
http://www.juno.co.uk/products/179502-01.htm

... and to my layman's ear it sounds like the "l" in "love" (although not
in "lollipop") in this segment is pronounced /lj/ (or else palatalized like
Spanish-Spanish "ll").

-- Doug Wilson

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 12 04:35:29 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:35:29 -0700
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050612000238.02b52450@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 11, 2005, at 9:13 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>> There was *something* about those /l/s in the way she sang
>> "Lollipop"; can anyone help identify the relevant phonetic feature?
>> I can still hear it in my mind's ear 40 years later...
>>
>
> I remember the song but I don't remember that.
>
> A 1-minute sample of what I think is the right version can be
> played at
> http://www.juno.co.uk/products/179502-01.htm
>
> ... and to my layman's ear it sounds like the "l" in
> "love" (although not
> in "lollipop") in this segment is pronounced /lj/ (or else
> palatalized like
> Spanish-Spanish "ll").

a palatal l, very striking in "love".  to my ear, the first l of
"lollipop" lacks velarization, but is not backed nearly as much.

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 12 05:12:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:12:48 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:27:52 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>And what is it that's supposed to be "humorous" in this fiction? Its
>content or the fact that it's written in "black dialect"?

That wasn't meant to be a personal evaluation of his work. I was cribbing
from this site: . I have no
clue why this sort of stuff was considered "humorous" at the time. The
past is a different country, as they say...

Regardless of his attempts at humor through racist caricature, I wonder if
he was picking up on an actual locution he had heard with "Is you is or is
you ain't?" Perhaps this was a common jocular expression that Louis Jordan
then put to song two decades later.

>Did Mr.Cohen live long enough to become familiar with the "Carolina
>Israelite"?

Cohen died in 1959, so he would have been alive for Harry Golden's heyday,
but I don't know if their politics agreed.

>On 6/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
>> Like many of my generation, I was first introduced to Louis Jordan's
>> 1944 hit "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" via the Tom & Jerry
>> cartoon "Solid Serenade" (1946). (Jordan cowrote the song, his first
>> million seller, with Bill Austin.) I came across a much earlier example
>> of "Is you is or is you ain't" in a 1921 story by Octavus Roy Cohen,
a
>> Jewish writer from South Carolina who wrote humorous black-dialect
>> fiction:
>>
>> -----
>> "Less Miserable" by Octavus Roy Cohen
>> _Chicago Tribune_, Sep. 25, 1921, (Magazine) p. 1/3
>> "What I asks you straight an' plain: Is you gwine loant me them two
>> dollars, or ain't you?"
>> "I ain't said I ain't."
>> "You ain't said you is."
>> "I ain't said nothin'."
>> "Well, I asks: Is you is or is you ain't?"
>> -----
>>
>> Cohen wrote a similar exchange in a story the following year:
>>
>> -----
>> "Fifty-Fifty Fifty" by Octavus Roy Cohen
>> _Chicago Tribune_, Nov. 26, 1922, (Magazine) p. 10/1
>> "But, Maudlin-- ain't we engage'?"
>> "I ain't said we ain't."
>> "But you ain't sayin' we is."
>> "I ain't sayin' nothin'."
>> "Well," desperately. "Is we is, or is we ain't?"
>> -----

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 12 06:26:18 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:26:18 -0400
Subject: Gothamland
Message-ID: 

Sunday's New York Times has Op-Ed contributors suggesting how New York can "get its groove back." It seems, after a hole at the World Trade Center site and the defeat of the West Side Stadium, that nothing can get built or done here. I have a lot to say about that, but I'll say it somewhere else.
...
Tom Wolfe says that New York has become "Gothamland," like Disneyland. "Gothamland" has been used sparingly before, but Wolfe's use could spur an image.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Hunchback Reopening?- RUMOR 
... It's not meant to seem like NYC to anything but a camera lens. It's not Gothamland,
it was built as a movie set. This is why it's thin on attractions. ...   
rec.arts.disney.parks - Oct 9 2002, 3:25 pm by Jiromi - 36 messages - 19 authors 
...
...
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/opinion/12intro.html
Pleasure Principles
By TOM WOLFE 
MARSHALL McLUHAN waited for the reporter's lips, mine, in fact, to stop moving, leaned back in his seat in the rear garden of that year's (1967) restaurant of the century, Lut?ce, looked up at a brilliant blue New York-in-May sky, lifted a forefinger and twirled it above his head in a loop that took in the 30-, 40-, 50-story buildings that rose all around and said, apropos of nothing anybody at the table had been talking about:
...
"Of course, a city like New York is obsolete. People will no longer concentrate in great urban centers for the purpose of work. New York will become a Disneyland, a pleasure dome ..."
...
At that stage of his mutation from unknown Canadian English teacher to communications swami and international celebrity, cryptic, Delphic, baffling, preposterous predictions were McLuhan's trump suit. Intellectuals argued over whether he was a genius or a dingbat. If the case of New York is any proof, however, the man was a pure genius.
...
Twenty-first century New York is fast becoming what Marshall McLuhan saw as he looked up in that garden out back at Lut?ce almost 40 years ago: a one-industry town, strictly in the pleasure dome business, with a single sales pitch, "You're Gonna Love Gothamland."
..
When it comes to the industries that created the metropolis 100 years ago, New York, like many big American cities, is a ghost town. Manufacturing, most notably New York's once famous garment industry, has moved to sweatier shops in China, Thailand, Mexico and Fiji. Mainstream retail has long since departed for the suburban "edge cities" Joel Garreau writes about. New York's original reason for being, shipping, is so far gone that the great piers on the Hudson River are now used for everything from an aircraft carrier welded to a dock as a museum to a golf driving range with a net to keep the balls from landing in the water.
...
Real estate development and the construction industry have never recovered from the commercial real estate crash of the 1990's that left nearly 60 million square feet of office space vacant, much of it in lonely and still unlovable Lower Manhattan. In terms of the location of the big investment firms, Wall Street today should be called Sixth Avenue and Broadway. Moreover, it is now obvious that there is no sound economic or geographical reason a financial market should consist of a great mob of men with sopping dark half-moons on their shirts beneath their armpits flailing about on "the floor" of some antiquated "stock exchange"... or in New York at all. The hemorrhaging of corporate headquarters from New York during the 1990's was stanched finally by a drug available only in Manhattan - Lunch.
...
Many a chief executive who knew it would save his corporation a fortune if he moved it to Pleasantville, Cincinnati or South Orange could not conceive of ... life without Lunch ... that daily celebration of his royalty at the sort of peculiarly Manhattan restaurant where a regular ensemble of ma?tres d' and captains hovers about the great man and his guests cooing sweet nothings in movie French ...where nothing so vulgar as a three-martini lunch ensues but, rather, a refined one-gallon-of-C?tes-du-Rh?ne lunch ... and his majesty the chief executive feeds in a supragustatory bliss upon Brazil-nut-and rosemary-encrusted day-boat halibut lying on a bed of millet infused with a double fermentation of malbec grape ... and the waiters arrive bearing the artistry of a chef for whom the owners of this restaurant, this month's restaurant of the century, all five years of it, combed the earth.
Such an ambrosial experience is a product not of the food industry but of the pleasure dome. None of Gothamland's stocks in trade are tangible. Rather, all offer the sheer excitement, even euphoria, of being ... "where things are happening."
...
Humanity comes to New York not to buy clothes but, rather ... Fashion ...not to see musicals and plays but to experience "Broadway," which resembles the turn-of-the-19th-century trolley town one finds himself in upon entering Disneyland in California. If the traffic on Broadway should ever lack congestion, if the people ever stop spilling over the sidewalks and out into the street, if they ever stop hyperventilating in a struggle to get to the will-call window before the curtain goes up, the producers and theater owners should hire hordes of the city's unemployed actors to serve as extras and recreate it all.
...
Millions roam New York's art museums each year, not to enjoy the artwork but to experience the ineffable presence of ...Culture. People throng Yankee Stadium game after game, season after season, not to see the Yankees play, not this year's Yankees, as the fellow might say, but to inhale ...The Myth ...
...
Which brings us to the fate of the West Side stadium proposal. In the short run, it may look like a foolish expenditure of billions desperately - it's inevitably desperate, government's "need" for money - desperately needed elsewhere. In the McLuhan-length run, however, a few billion might prove to be a bargain, especially if it led straight to holding an event the magnitude of the Olympics in New York. After all, what does our city now live on? Why, something about as solid as a sharp intake of breath: the world's impression that Gothamland and only Gothamland ...is where things are happening.
Tom Wolfe is the author, most recently, of "I Am Charlotte Simmons."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 12 07:15:06 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:15:06 -0400
Subject: "color" (sports commentary)
Message-ID: 

OED has 1938 (from Evelyn Waugh's _Scoop_) as the earliest use of "color"
meaning "words, descriptions, or attendant features of an evocative
nature."  Usage of "color" for sports commentary predates this.  In the
'20s, "the color story" referred to a feature that a newspaper would run
in addition to the straightforward account of a sporting event.  In the
'30s this usage was applied to radio broadcasts, with one announcer doing
the play-by-play (or blow-by-blow in boxing) and the other doing the
"color" in order to "paint the picture" for the audience.  Various
attributive usages followed, such as the now-pervasive "color commentary"
(oddly, not in OED or any other major dictionary at hand).

* color story

1912 _N.Y. Times_  17 Apr. 12/5 Though all of it was good, I will say that
I think the color story one of the finest pieces of newspaper writing I
have ever seen.
[A letter to the editor praising the paper's coverage of the Titanic
disaster.  Not sure what "the color story" refers to here.]

1924 _L.A. Times_ 31 Aug. A6/8 J. Andrew White will give the color story
of the crowd; the names of celebrities and a brief description of the game
[sc. polo game].

1926 _L.A. Times_ 22 Sep. 9/3 In addition there will be color stories,
statistical stories, analytical stories, etc., by the staff of Associated
Press veterans, men who have seen all the big fights of the past ten years
or more.

* (the) color

1932 _L.A. Times_ 7 May 5/8 Ted Husing and Thomas B. George will handle
the broadcast, Husing doing the color while George will "call" the race,
post by post, for the fans.

1934 _L.A. Times_ 27 Sep. 12/1 Columbia yesterday announced its sports
commentators who will handle the World Series assignment. Ted Husing will
give the color while Frances Laux of KMOX and Pat Flannagan of WBBM will
alternate at the microphone with the play-by-play descriptions.

1934 _N.Y. Times_ 30 Sep. X11/5 McNamee will handle the "color" while
Manning and Bond describe the plays.

* color picture

1933 _L.A. Times_ 3 Oct. 16/1 Husing will offer color pictures of each
contest, while Fred Hoey of WNC, Boston, will give the play-by-play
account of the first game today.

1934 _N.Y. Times_ 30 Sep. X11/5 Ted Husing will give "the color picture."

1934 _Washington Post_ 3 Oct. 21/6 Graham McNamee, Tom Manning and Ford
Bond will do the color picture and play-by-play description for N.B.C.

* color spot

1941 _N.Y. Times_ 24 Aug. X10/7 Don Dunphy will handle the blow-by-blow
accounts, while Bill Corum is to do the color spots for all the bouts.

* color commentary

1943 _Washington Post_ 1 Jan. B9/3 Description of the Cotton Bowl Game.
Don Dunphy does play-by-play and Earl Harper, the color commentary.

1943 _Wisconsin Rapids Tribune_ (Wisc.) 30 Dec. 5/2 (caption) Venter will
be on temporary leave from the United States Coast Guard..to do the
East-West color commentary.

1944 _N.Y. Times_ 24 Sep. X5/4 When the world series baseball games get
under way on Wednesday, Oct. 4, Don Dunphy and Bill Slater will do the
play-by-play descriptions, with Bill Corum doing the color commentary.

--Ben Zimmer

From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 12 13:17:35 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:17:35 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I also have this /l/ in my mind's ear. As I reproduce it in my own
mouth, it seems 1) to have a backer tongue-tip contact than is usual
(perhaps even slightly retroflexed, touching behind rather than on
the alveolar ridge) and 2) to have a geminate or "long" /l/ in the
second /l/ of the word.

I am surer about the second than the first, since a variety of
articulatory positions might achieve the same acoustic effect.

dInIs

>At 12:47 AM -0400 6/11/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>Unfortunately, the _Gleaner_ at the time seems to have been directed at
>>>Jamaica's slender white minority, so it apparently missed the first
>>>five
>>>years of the ska "rage". It wasn't until ska had become popular in
>>>England
>>>(Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop" was a huge hit there)
>>
>>As it was here, reaching no.2 in 1964. The singer herself appeared on
>>Dick Clark's American Bandstand.
>
>There was *something* about those /l/s in the way she sang
>"Lollipop"; can anyone help identify the relevant phonetic feature?
>I can still hear it in my mind's ear 40 years later...
>
>Larry (with no special /l/, alas)

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 12 15:21:39 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:21:39 EDT
Subject: "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson
Message-ID: 

"I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson on his future after
being KO'd by Lennox Lewis in 2002
(AOL NEWS)

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 12 16:53:35 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:53:35 -0700
Subject: guy candy
Message-ID: 

noticed on the cover of the February 2005 issue of Out magazine:
   Swimsuit Special
   22 pages of guy candy

a play on "eye candy" (which we've mentioned here before), of
course.  but how current is it?  modestly so, it turns out.
Cosmopolitan has had a "guy candy gallery" feature for some time (so
sue me, i tend to look at harder stuff than Cosmo guys), it turns
out, and might even have been the source from which the expression
spread -- to the monthly guy candy feature on www.musclemayhem.com
and various photo albums of male models, for instance.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 12 17:03:54 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:03:54 -0700
Subject: Schlimmbesserung
Message-ID: 

Tim McDaniel writes me to point out net discussions of the useful
German word "Schlimmbesserung" 'correcting badly' in English, used to
refer to making a mistake when correcting someone else's mistake (an
all too common event, in my experience).  Unfortunately, there seem
to be some who use it to refer to corrections that make things worse
-- also a common event (familiar to those who use Miscrosoft Word's
grammar checker, for instance), but not the same thing.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 12 18:06:14 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:06:14 -0400
Subject: Schlimmbesserung
In-Reply-To: <4D9B84CC-ADFC-4D19-8791-061BEC785723@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

>Tim McDaniel writes me to point out net discussions of the useful
>German word "Schlimmbesserung" 'correcting badly' in English, used to
>refer to making a mistake when correcting someone else's mistake (an
>all too common event, in my experience).  Unfortunately, there seem
>to be some who use it to refer to corrections that make things worse
>-- also a common event (familiar to those who use Miscrosoft Word's
>grammar checker, for instance), but not the same thing.

German "Schlimmbesserung" seems to be a relatively uncommon equivalent of
"Verschlimmbesserung", meaning "worsening [something] in an attempt to
improve [it]" (apparently corresponding to the second interpretation above,
according to my naive impression): I guess the transitive verb
"verschlimmbessern" is a combination of "verbessern" and "verschlimmern".

The Grimm dictionary on-line gives "schlimmbessern" = "verschlechtern in
der absicht zu verbessern", with derived "Schlimmbesserung".

Perhaps someone expert in German can correct me, or add something.

-- Doug Wilson

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 18:15:57 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:15:57 -0400
Subject: spam from bigapple
In-Reply-To: <611.371912.630862@comports.com>
Message-ID: 

I got this unsolicited invitation in the mail from
"bigapple at comports.com", but it turns out to have nothing (directly)
to do with Barry.  For a moment, reading down the columns before
seeing what it was about, I immediately began to construct natural
classes.  For me, the correlation between "Wicked" and "Yankees" on
the one hand and "Doubt" and "Mets" on the other was perfectly
plausible, and I was all set with my yin/yang hypothesis, but by the
time I got to Rolling Stones in the Yankees column and Metropolitan
Opera in the Mets, I started to reconsider...

Larry

At 4:36 AM -0400 6/12/05,  wrote:
>We carry premium tickets for major entertainment events
>in New York.
>
>Upcoming events include:
>* Wicked           * Doubt
>* Yankees          * Mets
>* Hairspray        * Monty Python's Spamalot
>* Lion King        * Avenue Q
>* The Producers    * Mamma Mia
>* Elton John       * Putnam County Spelling Bee
>* Rolling Stones   * Metropolitan Opera
>* Movin' Out       * On Golden Pond
>* U2               * Cirque Du Soleil
>* Paul McCartney   * Glengarry Glen Ross
>* Backstreet Boys  * Steve Winwood
>* Santana          * American Idols Live
>* Journey          * Mark Twain Tonight
>* Meatloaf         * Michael Buble
>* Coldplay         * The Light in the Piazza
>* Mark Knopfler    * Crosby, Stills and Nash
>* Judas Priest     * Doors of the 21st Century & Steppenwolf
>* Boston Redsox    * New York City Ballet
>* Kem              * Robert Plant
>* Las Vegas shows  * Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
>* Beatstock        * Allman Brothers
>* Donna Summer     * Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
>* Carole King      * Alanis Morissette
>* Neil Diamond     * Eminem & 50 Cent
>* Lennon           * Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
>* Motley Crue      * U.S. Open Tennis (Aug 29-Sept 11)
>* Johnny Mathis    * ABBA the Music
>* Tom Petty        * Jackie Mason: Freshly Squeezed
>* WWE Raw          * Whitesnake
>* Duran Duran      * Loggins & Messina
>* Brian Wilson     * John Mellencamp & John Fogerty
>* Destiny's Child  * Beach Boys
>* Moody Blues      * La Cage aux Folles
>* Green Day        * Lucinda Williams
>* Hurly Burly      * The Glass Menagerie
>* Oasis            * All Shook Up
>** We are interested in buying your Yankees, Mets,
>    U.S. Open tennis, concert & broadway tickets, etc...
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>
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>
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 18:28:24 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:28:24 -0400
Subject: Etymology of "Ska"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 9:17 AM -0400 6/12/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>I also have this /l/ in my mind's ear. As I reproduce it in my own
>mouth, it seems 1) to have a backer tongue-tip contact than is usual
>(perhaps even slightly retroflexed, touching behind rather than on
>the alveolar ridge) and 2) to have a geminate or "long" /l/ in the
>second /l/ of the word.
>
>I am surer about the second than the first, since a variety of
>articulatory positions might achieve the same acoustic effect.
>
>dInIs

Absolutely right--perfect description.  I was also thinking the
effect was stronger on the second /l/, and the gemination is
definitely part of it.  One especially nice thing about this list is
the constant reassurance that my brain isn't the only one that still
stores all these vital records (scratched as they may sometimes be).

Larry

>>At 12:47 AM -0400 6/11/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>Unfortunately, the _Gleaner_ at the time seems to have been directed at
>>>>Jamaica's slender white minority, so it apparently missed the first
>>>>five
>>>>years of the ska "rage". It wasn't until ska had become popular in
>>>>England
>>>>(Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop" was a huge hit there)
>>>
>>>As it was here, reaching no.2 in 1964. The singer herself appeared on
>>>Dick Clark's American Bandstand.
>>
>>There was *something* about those /l/s in the way she sang
>>"Lollipop"; can anyone help identify the relevant phonetic feature?
>>I can still hear it in my mind's ear 40 years later...
>>
>>Larry (with no special /l/, alas)
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 12 18:53:34 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:53:34 -0400
Subject: guy candy
In-Reply-To: <0FC03821-03C1-4AFB-81C7-BC0BF010F368@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 9:53 AM -0700 6/12/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>noticed on the cover of the February 2005 issue of Out magazine:
>   Swimsuit Special
>   22 pages of guy candy
>
>a play on "eye candy" (which we've mentioned here before), of
>course.  but how current is it?  modestly so, it turns out.
>Cosmopolitan has had a "guy candy gallery" feature for some time (so
>sue me, i tend to look at harder stuff than Cosmo guys), it turns
>out, and might even have been the source from which the expression
>spread -- to the monthly guy candy feature on www.musclemayhem.com
>and various photo albums of male models, for instance.
>

Notice the different semantic composition structure for "eye candy"
and "guy candy"; the latter may get erroneously parsed as
"[metaphorical] candy for guys" (where "candy" suggests 'tasty but
not necessarily good for you in the long run'), where "guy" is the
goal rather than the theme argument, although a candy spread
involving males and featured in Cosmo makes this a relatively
unlikely reading.

Larry

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 12 20:20:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:20:48 -0400
Subject: guy candy
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:53:34 -0400, Laurence Horn 
wrote:

>At 9:53 AM -0700 6/12/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>>noticed on the cover of the February 2005 issue of Out magazine:
>>   Swimsuit Special
>>   22 pages of guy candy
>>
>>a play on "eye candy" (which we've mentioned here before), of
>>course.  but how current is it?  modestly so, it turns out.
>>Cosmopolitan has had a "guy candy gallery" feature for some time (so
>>sue me, i tend to look at harder stuff than Cosmo guys), it turns
>>out, and might even have been the source from which the expression
>>spread -- to the monthly guy candy feature on www.musclemayhem.com
>>and various photo albums of male models, for instance.
>>
>
>Notice the different semantic composition structure for "eye candy"
>and "guy candy"; the latter may get erroneously parsed as
>"[metaphorical] candy for guys" (where "candy" suggests 'tasty but
>not necessarily good for you in the long run'), where "guy" is the
>goal rather than the theme argument, although a candy spread
>involving males and featured in Cosmo makes this a relatively
>unlikely reading.

Cf. "boy toy", parsed as either "a toy for boys" or "a boy used as a toy".

--Ben Zimmer

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 12 20:27:46 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:27:46 -0400
Subject: All's out's in free(Ollie Ollie oxen free) 1909
Message-ID: 

Barry found "Ollie" from 1949.  I wasn't looking for an antedating, but rather trying to find the earliest use of what must have been the original rhyme.

Not that this is the earliest use(it's the earliest I can find), but it's helpful as a dating--

Using Proquest,  from _The New York Times_  19 May, 1909, pg. 8

(A poem called "When Grandpa Plays")

>>He started to play hide and seek  
    Till Grandpa had to give it up and say, 
       "All's out's in free!"  <<

Sam Clements

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 12 20:28:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:28:13 -0400
Subject: Schlimmbesserung
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:03:54 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
 wrote:

>Tim McDaniel writes me to point out net discussions of the useful
>German word "Schlimmbesserung" 'correcting badly' in English, used to
>refer to making a mistake when correcting someone else's mistake (an
>all too common event, in my experience).  Unfortunately, there seem
>to be some who use it to refer to corrections that make things worse
>-- also a common event (familiar to those who use Miscrosoft Word's
>grammar checker, for instance), but not the same thing.

Great!  So yet another term for McKean's/Skitt's/Hartman's Law...

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002035.html

--Ben Zimmer

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 12 23:51:40 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0700
Subject: Schlimmbesserung
In-Reply-To: <4D9B84CC-ADFC-4D19-8791-061BEC785723@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 12, 2005, at 10:03 AM, i wrote:

> ...Unfortunately, there seem
> to be some who use it to refer to corrections that make things worse
> -- also a common event (familiar to those who use Miscrosoft Word's
> grammar checker, for instance), but not the same thing.

i wish i could take credit for "Miscrosoft" as a coinage, but it was
a mere typo.

but not a (Ver)schlimmbesserung (sense 1), since i wasn't correcting
anybody.

arnold

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 13 00:44:20 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:44:20 EDT
Subject: Lapskous (1947) and Lapskous Boulevard (1969)
Message-ID: 

LAPSKAUS--13,900 Google hits, 433 Google Groups hits
...
...
_http://www.barrypopik.com/artic
le/1021/lapskaus-boulevard-eighth-avenue-bay-ridge_ 
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1021/lapskaus-boulevard-eighth-avenue-bay-ridge) 
_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1020/norwegian-american-day-parade_ 
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1020/norwegian-american-day-parade) 
...
...
...
I just added about 20 entries to my web page today, from "Lapskaus" to  
"Mermaid Parade" and "Gothamland."
...
"Lapskaus" is not, of course, in the OED ("miserable on food"). This is  part 
of my effort to solve every problem from every place and every culture  
around the world for free in my spare time, when I'm not adjudicating parking  
tickets ten hours a day in a room with no air conditioning or even air..
...
...
...
_http://www.scandinavian-museum.org/about/about.htm_ 
(http://www.scandinavian-museum.org/about/about.htm)   
Many people remember the days when Trinity Lutheran  Church on 46th St. and 
4th Ave.in Brooklyn had 1,000 children in their Sunday  School. Many people 
regret the loss of Eighth Avenue as the main Norwegian  thoroughfare, known as 
"Lapskaus Boulevard", which thronged with Norwegian  stores and restaurants. A 
Scandinavian community has existed in the Sunset Park,  Bay Ridge and Dyker 
Park communities for over 300 years. The Norwegians  physically and spiritually 
built these communities and built them to  last.      
...
...
_http://www.norway-times.com/2004_Main_Stories/Main_story_13.html_ 
(http://www.norway-times.com/2004_Main_Stories/Main_story_13.html) 

Issue 13, March 31,  2004:
The Last of the Norwegians
on  Lapskaus Boulevard
The lilt of Norwegian, taste of  fish cakes, and sight of Norwegian seamen 
strolling along Eighth Avenue, have  been replaced by the high-pitch of Chinese, 
taste of egg cakes and sight of  thousands of Chinese shoppers scurrying to 
gather their groceries. 

By  VICTORIA HOFMO
8th Avenue, Brooklyn
Eighth Avenue, once known  colloquially as Lapskaus Boulevard (a Norwegian 
salted beef stew), due to its  high concentration of Norwegians, is losing its 
last vestige of the old  neighborhood. Signy?s Imports, an Scandinavian 
specialty shop, is closing.  
... 
... 
_http://www.brooklynsoc.org/revealingpictures/KRASE01.html_ 
(http://www.brooklynsoc.org/revealingpictures/KRASE01.html)  
A few decades ago this part of Sunset Park, now considered "Brooklyn's  
Chinatown," was an old Scandinavian (Norwegian) neighborhood and was referred to  
by locals as Lapskaus Boulevard. Lapskaus is a Norwegian beef stew. Today one  
has to search very hard to find signs of their eighty-year long dominance. One 
 ethnic fossil is a small variety store on Eight Avenue that has a lute fisk 
sign  in the window. On field trips to the neighborhood, I had to explain to 
my  students that lute fisk is a dish, served especially during the Christmas  
holidays, that is made from salted dried cod. Other signs of this senior 
ethnic  group are the Protestant (Lutheran) churches in the neighborhood that, now 
in  Chinese characters or en Espanol, announce religious and other services. 
In a  few instances, students also found Scandinavian names such as "Larsen" 
displayed  in the front of neatly landscaped single-family houses on some of the 
side  streets. 
...
...
_http://niaexhibit.com/heritagehall.html_ 
(http://niaexhibit.com/heritagehall.html) 
HERITAGE HALL is located in a wing of the Norwegian  Christian Home & Health 
Center, recently remodeled to a state-of-the-art  facility. If interested, you 
will be able to have a guided tour of this  beautiful complex. As you go 
home, you can drive along 8th Avenue (called  Lapskaus Boulevard* by 
Norwegian-Americans), to see how it has changed from a  totally Norwegian population to one 
almost entirely Chinese!
...
...
...
23 August 1947, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 13:
A Recipe for Lapskaus,
a Norwegian Goulash
"Lapskous" is a favorite Norwegian dish, similar to a goulash, and before  
some Norwegian cook writes to tell me this recipe isn't the right one, let me  
say that it was sent to me a few years back by the Royal Norwegian Information  
service, which should make it authentic!

Lapskaus [a Norwegian goulash]
[Sox servings]
1 1/2 pounds boneless beef, cut in 1/2 inch pieces
3/4 cup fat
2 pounds potatoes, pared and diced
2 teaspoons salt
1/2 teaspoon pepper
1/2 teaspoon sugar
Juice of 1/2 lemon
...
...
30 April 1948, Los Angeles Times, pg. A5:
There were steaming bowls of Lapskaus, a Norwegian stew, also.
...
...
29 October 1969, New York Times, "The Question in Bay  Ridge: Who Will 
Get the Anti-Lindsay Vote?" by Michael T. Kaufman, pg. 50;
There are said to be more Norwegians here than in Oslo, most of them living  
near Eighth Avenue, which is sometimes called Lapskaus Boulevard after a  
Norwegian beef stew. The Norwegians are the smallest of the major ethnic  groups.
...
...

17 March 1991, New York Times, pg. 36:
In Brooklyn, Wontons, Not Lapskaus
By ANDREW L. YARROW
(...)
For years, the Atlantic was the hub of a stretch of Eighth Avenue between  
45th and 60th Streets that was dotted with dozens of Norwegian bars, bakeries  
and restaurants. But in the 1980's, a Chinese and Arab immigrants moved in,  
Chinese restaurants and meat markets supplanted almost all the Norwegian  
businesses along the street that was popularly known as Lapskaus Boulevard, a  
reference to a meat-and-potatoes stew that was a staple of the Norwegian  worker's 
diet.
(...)

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 13 02:15:45 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:15:45 -0400
Subject: embarras d'eggcorn
Message-ID: 

This is a recent posting from a cancer e-mail list, in reference to a
projected therapy protocol:

--- begin forwarded text

Thanks for the saga advise.  I will take you words to treatment with
me tomorrow.  I'm sure it will be a roll-a-coaster, but I don't
intend to let it throw me off.

Again, my thanks.

--- end forwarded text

The "saga" is quite possibly a typo, the "advise" a simple
misspelling that I suspect I've encountered in students' papers.  But
the "roll-a-coaster" is the interesting one, and not novel or unique
to this writer.  Google has 411 hits, some literal, some 'emotional'.

Larry

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 13 02:25:10 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:25:10 EDT
Subject: "Funademental Tenants"
Message-ID: 

FUNDAMENTAL TENANS--777 Google hits, 168 Google Groups hits
FUNDAMENTAL TENENETS--259 Google hits, 139 Google Groups hits
FUNDAMENTAL TENETS--56,300 Google hits, 5,300 Google Groups hits
...
...
"Fundamental tenants" sounds like something surely from New York City. I  saw
it in the passage below.
...
I met Sam Sloan again recently. We played a rated chess game in 1977; he  was
legendary even then. I can't explain his story here, but type "Sam Sloan"
into Technorati.com. He says that his website--well designed for about 1990,
horrible today--gets 15,000 unique hits a day. He said that he'll mention me and
 I'll get a few thousand extra hits.
...
These past few weeks have been interesting.
...
...
...
_http://www.recommendingmike.com/2005/05/samsloancom.html_
(http://www.recommendingmike.com/2005/05/samsloancom.html)

Wednesday, May 11, 2005

SamSloan.com

Hands down the best personal home page ever created. From the  bumping MIDI
tracks to the photos of Sam with his "wild Icelandic girls" at an  after-party
for the 1972 Fischer - Spassky chess match in Reykjavik, this is  why the
Internet was invented. Sam Sloan is more fun to follow than sports and  more fun
to watch than television.

Thus far, none of Tim's  recommendations have given me cause to utter out
loud, "What the fuck?" After  visiting _Mr. Sloan's  website_
(http://samsloan.com/index.htm) , I can proudly say that I not only uttered the phrase in
question to myself, I screamed it at the top of my lungs, while pulling my hair  out
and gouging myself in the eyes, trying to slap some sense into my PowerBook,
clicking hyperlink after hyperlink after hyperlink, awash in frustration and
confusion and growing increasingly paranoid that maybe all this time, all
these  years, I have been wrong about the fundamental tenants of life, that maybe
Sam  Sloan is right about _everything_ (http://samsloan.com/vowels.htm) ,
and I know nothing, and I certainly don't have enough _hyperlinks_
(http://samsloan.com/sexinamerica.htm)  in Recommending Mike, and how will this  website
ever come to mean anything to anybody when this is what I have to  compete with
for other people's attention?

This is the kind of website  that makes you realize that, until the Internet,
there was a special kind of  crazy that existed in the various strains of the
human species but was never  allowed to fully express itself. Thanks to
technology, it appears that crazies  are on the upswing here in the early 21st
century, but it just ain't so! They've  been with us all along. It just wasn't
until recently that one could tell  millions of people _really personal things
about ex-girlfriends_ (http://samsloan.com/no-case.htm)  in such a  uniquely
creepy way (i.e., while ungodly MIDI jams loop in the  background).

As far as confirming or denying the recommendability of this  website is
concerned, there's no easy answer. On one hand, "the Internet is a  place where
absolutely nothing happens. You need to take advantage of that." On  the other
hand, if I'm going to waste my time in cyberspace, I happen to favor  the
instant gratification of the _Numa  Numa dance_
(http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/numa.php)  or something like that over the time-intesive pleasures of
_SamSloan.com_ (http://samsloan.com/index.htm) .

Sam Sloan _claims_ (http://samsloan.com/jenna.htm)  that  the FBI monitors
his website, which doesn't actually seem like that much of a  stretch. Sam Sloan
also wrote a book called _The Slave Children of Thomas Jefferson_
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4906574009/ref=ase_slavesofthomasje/002-684
0718-7101643?v=glance&s=books) , which has an  average rating of 1.5 stars
from 3 reviews on Amazon.com.

posted by Recommending Mike at _6:11 PM_
(http://www.recommendingmike.com/2005/05/samsloancom.html)
(http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=9723938&postID=111586333875028356&quickEdit=true)

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 13 02:28:21 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:28:21 -0400
Subject: Correction to inventor of "rag time" Harney-1896
Message-ID: 

In 2003, Barry(who else?) found the earliest use of the musical term "rag time."  

 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303A&L=ads-l&P=R1611

The Broklyn Daily Eagle misspelled the name of the performer as "Ben R. Harvey," but the correct name should have been "Harney."

Sam Clements

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 13 06:58:04 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:58:04 EDT
Subject: Contextual Zoning (1984)
Message-ID: 

Donald Trump mentioned "contextual zoning" in Sunday's New York Times.  It's 
not in OED, of course.
...
It's a biggie for New York, but a little esoteric to discuss here,  perhaps.
...
The Morningside Heights website (below) effective provides the  arguments 
against "contextual zoning," IMHO.  It's a good policy for  Florence, Italy, but 
not New York.
...
...
...
_http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/opinion/12intro.html?pagewanted=5_ 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/opinion/12intro.html?pagewanted=5) 

O.K., Let's Give Up
By DONALD J. TRUMP 
IT is much easier to defeat something in New York City than to build  
something. With that in mind, we should consider whether we want the easy way  out or 
if we can accept a challenge. New Yorkers have been known for their  energy, 
their strength and, especially in the past few years, for their courage.  
Maybe we're just worn out after pulling together so well after Sept. 11, 2001.  
It's been a haul. So maybe we just want to sit back and let things take care of  
themselves - elsewhere. 
The process in New York is very tough, and that's why I am building major  
projects in cities like Chicago, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. Have you heard the  
term "contextual zoning" yet? It's a biggie in New York. So are the community  
boards, which like to make things close to impossible.  
... 
... 
_http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/glossary.html_ 
(http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/glossary.html)  
Contextual Zoning
Contextual zoning  regulates height, placement and scale of new buildings so 
that they fit the  character of the neighborhoods in which they are located. 
Contextual districts  for lower-density areas, generally with the suffix A, B, 
X or 1 (e.g., R2X, R3-1  or R5B), are tailored to the particular 
characteristics of detached and  semi-detached housing or rowhouse neighborhoods. Moderate- 
and higher-density  contextual districts, identified by a letter suffix A, B 
or X (e.g., R6A, R8X or  C4-6A), encourage the lower, bulkier, 
closer-to-the-sidewalk apartment  buildings, at different densities, that define the 
streetscape in many of the  city's neighborhoods. The Quality Housing Program is 
mandatory in moderate- and  higher-density contextual districts. 
... 
... 
_http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-4016.html_ 
(http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-4016.html)  
September 18, 2003

TURF 

Neighbors Think Outside the  Block

By MOTOKO  RICH

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/09/18/garden/18turf.1.184.jpg
DOWNSIZERS  Protesting a new high rise in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, one of 
several  neighborhoods where rezoning could be used as a preservation  tool.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/09/18/garden/18turf.2.184.jpg
FOR  A SMOOTHER PROFILE "Contextual" zoning ? promoted by civic groups to 
keep a  neighborhood's skyline and the character of its buildings relatively 
consistent  ? took effect this year in Park Slope, Brooklyn, above.\ 
... 
... 
_http://tenant.net/Other_Laws/zoning/zonch09.html_ 
(http://tenant.net/Other_Laws/zoning/zonch09.html)  
Adopted in 1989, lower density contextual zoning seeks to restore a  
meaningful difference between R3, R4 and R5 districts and ensure that new  residential 
development in low-rise neighborhoods is compatible with existing  housing. 
In order to achieve these goals, the zoning text incorporated a number  of 
modifications that alter the bulk, density, configuration and parking  
requirements in lower density residential districts.  
... 
... 
_http://www.morningside-heights.net/conzon.htm_ 
(http://www.morningside-heights.net/conzon.htm)   
Why the Proposed Contextual Zoning is a Bad Idea 
There is a proposal afoot  to try to have Morningside Heights designated by 
the City as an area under  Contextual Zoning. In essence, this would require 
short, blocky buildings with  continuous street walls and restrict free-standing 
towers.  
There are eight basic  problems with Contextual Zoning:  
1.Contextual Zoning would have prevented some  of the neighborhood's best 
buildings, like Riverside Church, St. John the  Divine, Notre Dame, and the 
Christian Science Church.  
2.Contextual Zoning would not have  prevented some of the neighborhood's 
worst buildings, like Carman Hall,  Interchurch Center, Lerner Hall, the new part 
of St. Luke's Hospital, and the  Center for Jewish Student Life.  
3.Morningside Heights will eventually be  designated an official Historic 
District, which carries with it stronger and  more flexible protections which 
actually could have worked in 1. and 2. above.  
4.Contextual Zoning can be rigid and  restrictive and does not always make 
sense in individual cases.  
5.Contextual zoning requires setbacks that  are inconsistent with the 
existing fabric of the neighborhood.  
6.Contextual Zoning as proposed would be  floor-area neutral, meaning that it 
would not reduce the quantity of space that  could be built here, only 
rearrange it. It is therefore not an effective tool  for opposing gentrification 
north of 125th St.  
7.Contextual Zoning will require a $75,000  planning study.  
8. Criticism has come up about the Harlem  Community Development Corporation, 
(HCDC) which is being proposed as the  principal source of the $75,000 needed 
for the study to impose Contextual  Zoning. It seems that this corporation is 
a corrupt patronage toy of Gov. Pataki  and as such does not have a good 
reputation in the Upper Manhattan community. It  may be unwise to get entangled in 
this web of Republican quid-pro-quos and  suspect financial practices.  
If you find yourself in agreement, please  print out this _poster_ 
(http://www.morningside-heights.net/conzon.doc)  (MSWord) and put  it up in your 
building or elsewhere that people will see it.  
Ian Fletcher
Webmaster, MorningsideHeights.net
Moderator, MHNET 

... 
... 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 
_'Village'  Zoning_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=118785156&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1118644465&clien
tId=65882) 
JEANINE ESPOSITO, HARVEY L. SLATIN.  New York Times (1857-Current file). New 
York, N.Y.: May  13, 1984. p. R12 (1 page) 
The Planning Department is accommodating a  developer who has been acquiring 
properties in a mixed residential-industrial  area just below the 14th Street 
meat market and wants to build luxury housing  higher than the Village norm. 
Generic-contextual zoning is simply another  euphemism for overriding 
communities. 
... 
_West  Side Zoning_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=230865742&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1118645138&clien
tId=65882) 
CON HOWE. New York  Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 3, 1985. 
p. R8 (1 page)  : 
The article said the Special Lincoln Square District rezoning was  
specifically undertaken to encourage "contextual zoning," which requires  specific 
streetwall heights and setbacks. In fact, the new zoning designations  that are 
referred to as "contextual zoning" were applied to the area north of  the distr
ict.

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 13 07:31:54 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:31:54 EDT
Subject: Chicken Riggies (From Utica, NY)
Message-ID: 

Utica, NY has just finished a successful "Riggiefest." By law, every  upstate 
New York town must have its own food, from Buffalo wings to beef n' weck  to 
Binghamton spiedies to Saratoga potatoes to to Syracuse salt potatoes to  
Rochester white hots and now Utica spiedies. My college town of Troy and my home  
town of Spring Valley are the only NYS towns with no cuisine at all.
...
"Riggies" (rigatoni) is not in DARE. Are the Utica newspaper(s) online for  
the 1990s?
...
...
...
_http://www.foodreference.com/html/new-york-festivals.html_ 
(http://www.foodreference.com/html/new-york-festivals.html) 
May  21, 2005 _Utica's  Riggiefest_ (http://www.ywcamv.org/) 
Utica, New York
Chicken Riggies are a staple of the Utica  community and will be available 
for tasting from several local eateries the  first annual "Utica's Riggiefest." 
'Chicken Riggies' are a way of preparing  rigatoni in a creamy marinara sauce 
with chicken and spices. The term "riggie"  has caught on in the Central New 
York area and many local restaurants serve this  very popular and delicious 
dish.
...
...
_http://www.uticaod.com/archive/2005/06/02/opinion/29830.html_ 
(http://www.uticaod.com/archive/2005/06/02/opinion/29830.html) 

Make Utica riggies known nationwide  
Congratulations to the YWCA on its enormously successful Utica Riggies  
Festival. Huge crowds attended to sample the area's most famous and popular  dish. 
The variety of recipes presented by each of the 15 restaurants in  attendance 
made it a fun and surprise- filled afternoon.  
There is no reason "Utica riggies" can't take its place in the national  
jargon along with Buffalo wings, Carolina barbecue, Omaha steaks, San Francisco  
sourdough, New York pizza and the rest.  
All we and our local restaurateurs have to do is to call them Utica Riggies  
on the menu and use the name when we order them. Our restaurants and our 
special  ways of cooking are a source of pride around here, and it wouldn't hurt to 
let  visitors know how we feel.  
It might not produce jobs and growth in the short term, but it will get  
people thinking about us in a positive way. It costs us nothing to be proud of  
our valley!  
BOB KELLY  
Utica 
...
3. _Sample the best at  Riggiefest_ 
(http://nl.newsbank.com/nojavascript.html) 
May 19, 2005 ?? 234  words ?? ID: uti2005051911191361
By SHAWN ANDERSON Observer-Dispatch  scanderson at utica.gannett.com UTICA - The 
inaugural Utica Riggiefest takes place  this weekend. For $5, residents can 
sample one of Utica's most famous dishes -  chicken with rigatoni pasta in 
sauce as prepared by 14 restaurants, and vote for  their favorite. The top 
vote-getter walks away with the Riggie Cup. Dave Gibson,  a financial consultant at 
Smith Barney, said he founded the Riggiefest so people  would take pride in 
Central New York.    (http://nl.newsbank.com/nojavascript.html) 
...

4. _City sinks its teeth into  Riggiefest_ 
(http://nl.newsbank.com/nojavascript.html) 
January 14,  2005 ?? 450 words ?? ID: uti2005011410021332
By SHAWN ANDERSON Observer-Dispatch UTICA - Mark Rende  starts with imported 
rigatoni pasta. The chicken breast is charbroiled. He adds  white wine, basil 
and garlic to the mix - and he's just getting started. "You  got mushrooms, 
peppers, onions, black olives," he said. The ingredients come  together to make 
chicken riggies, the most popular dish at Mr. McGill's, the  Schuyler eatery 
owned by Rende. He claims to offer some of the best chicken  riggies in the 
Mohawk    (http://nl.newsbank.com/nojavascript.html) 
...
...
(GOOGLE  GROUPS)
...

_Can  Someone Explain Today's Pearls Before Swine_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.strips/browse_thread/thread/5a0255ab85cadd4/bae68c01
06be5752?q=riggies+and+utica&rnum=1&hl=en#bae68c0106be5752)  
... for  Utica, I've been there once or twice, but never long enough to  
learn anything
about the local cuisine. I recently read an article  about "chicken riggies," 
...   
_rec.arts.comics.strips_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.strips?hl=en)  - Feb 1,  12:19 am by Mark Jackson - 26 messages - 14 authors 
...

_Up  State NY breakfast_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_thread/thread/fe2d0fbf2ad3db8b/ed1a62dd37775157?q=riggies+and+utica&rn
um=2&hl=en#ed1a62dd37775157)  
... Googling: East Utica  greens, the first hit was: 
http://themezz.com/cgi-local ...  (and
"hats" :>) Hats were in decline, displaced by "chicken  riggies", but are ... 

_rec.food.cooking_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking?hl=en)  - Jan 8,  12:42 am by Dave S 
...

_OT:::  Where's Curly Sue?_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_thread/thread/a6d13439eee56dc2/171d009e935bdc27?q=riggies+and+utic
a&rnum=3&hl=en#171d009e935bdc27)  
... I visited my family around  Christmas, enjoying the chaos and the food of 
my people-
Utica  greens, pastaciotti, tomato pie, chicken riggies, etc. ...  
_rec.food.cooking_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking?hl=en)  - Jan 3  2004, 2:34 pm by Curly Sue 
...

   _How  to Make Sfogliatelle?_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_thread/thread/81e611da3770d629/9de1f1302625cfe3?q=riggies+and+u
tica&rnum=4&hl=en#9de1f1302625cfe3)  
Visiting my hometown (Utica,  New York) over the past weekend, I ate so much 
fantastic
Italian soul  food (chicken riggies, greens, pastries, etc.) I fell in ...  
_rec.food.cooking_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking?hl=en)  - Oct 29  2002, 8:20 am by Finocchio568 

...

   _hometown  surprises_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_thread/thread/af903013aa47722a/e1fa63db400e6eaa?q=riggies+and+utica&rn
um=5&hl=en#e1fa63db400e6eaa)  
... recent" (ie, invented after I left)  creations including Greens Morelli 
and chicken
riggies.  ... half moons are still the best in the universe and Utica  is the 
only ...   
_rec.food.cooking_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking?hl=en)  - Jul 3  2001, 5:30 pm by Donna Pattee 
...

   _Spiedies  by Mail_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.culture.ny-upstate/browse_thread/thread/da867ca5e2dd3fc8/d945d41015b6694b?q=riggies+and+utic
a&rnum=6&hl=en#d945d41015b6694b)  
hate to say this..but speedies are a Binghamton  original....wings are from 
buffalo....
And Utica has fried  ravioli (YUM!), greens moreale and chicken riggies. ...  
_alt.culture.ny-upstate_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.culture.ny-upstate?hl=en)  - Jul 21  1997, 5:33 pm by JDeanGEO - 9 messages - 8 authors  
...
...
_http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/recipex/msg1120092116746.html_ 
(http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/recipex/msg1120092116746.html) 
RECIPE: Chicken Riggies - local favoritePosted by _Debbie814_ 
(http://members.gardenweb.com/members/Debbie814)  (_My Page_ 
(http://members.gardenweb.com/members/Debbie814) ) on Mon, Nov  29, 04 at 20:09  
Here's a local favorite. Chicken Riggies, they're on just about every  
Italian restaurant menu in my hometown Utica, NY. It's a quick, easy meal.   
Chicken Riggies  
1 stick butter, melted 
1 onion minced 
3 cloves garlic, minced  
20 oz. jar of sweet peppers (sliced with seeds removed) 
3 sliced  hot cherry peppers (packed in jar with oil)  
Saute above ingredients.  
Add:  
1 cup parmigiano cheese 
2 lbs. boneless chicken breast, cubed 
1  can chicken broth 
1 can tomato sauce (15 oz)  
Cook for 1 hour. Pour over 1 1/2 boxes of cooked Rigatoni pasta. Serve  with 
fresh Italian  bread.
...
...
_http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6187_ 
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6187) 

_efuery_ 
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=16307) 
Cheeseburger

313  Posts     Posted - 01/14/2005 :  12:22:07   
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=16307)  
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/post.asp?method=TopicQuote&TOPIC_ID=6187&FORUM_ID=13)   
____________________________________
   Ok. This  article showed up in the news today but doesn't actually say 
what  the dish is (other than chicken and rigatoni). Can someone in  upstate NY 
please explain exactly what a chicken riggie is and how  it is prepared.

Utica builds festival around popular  chicken 'riggie' dish 

UTICA, N.Y. Buffalo has chicken  wings, Baltimore has crab cakes and 
Philadelphia has its cheese  steaks.

What does Utica, New York, have to offer in the way  of regional cuisine?

Chicken riggies.

The dish  combines chicken with rigatoni pasta and other ingredients. It's a  
popular item in Utica, where many local chefs claim to make the best  riggies.

In the spring, they'll be able to put their recipes  to the test when Utica 
hosts its first Riggiefest.

The  fund-raising event in May will let the public sample the offerings  and 
determine which restaurant serves the best chicken  riggies.

Founder Dave Gibson says it's another way for people  to take pride in 
central New York.

Copyright 2005 Associated  Press. All rights reserved. This material may not 
be published,  broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.  
_chezkatie_ 
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=10124) 
Double Chili  Cheeseburger

1518  Posts 
 (http://www.roadfood.com/FAQ/Insider.aspx)  

Posted - 01/14/2005 :  14:37:58   
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=10124)  
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=99468&TOPIC_ID=6187&FORUM_ID=13)   
____________________________________
   Here is  a recipe that I found. (I have eaten in Italian restaurants in  
Utica, NY and never noticed it on the menu.)

CHICKEN  RIGGIES

INGREDIENTS:
4 tablespoons olive oil 
1/4 cup  butter 
5 cloves garlic, minced 
10 tablespoons minced shallot  
2 pounds skinless, boneless chicken breast meat - cubed 
salt  and pepper to taste 
1 (4 ounce) jar sweet red peppers, drained  and julienned 
1/2 cup fresh tomato sauce 
1/4 cup dry sherry  
1 pint heavy cream 
1 (8 ounce) package uncooked rigatoni  pasta 

DIRECTIONS:
In a large saucepan, heat oil and  melt butter over medium heat. Add garlic 
and shallots and saute  until soft, then add chicken, season with salt and 
pepper to taste  and saute for 8 to 10 minutes, or until halfway cooked. 
Add  peppers and stir in tomato sauce, reduce heat to low and simmer  about 
10 minutes. Add sherry and simmer for another 10 minutes, then  stir in cream 
and simmer for 10 minutes more. Toss all with hot,  cooked pasta and serve. 

 (http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6187#top)   
_efuery_ 
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=16307) 
Cheeseburger

313  Posts     Posted - 01/14/2005 :  14:42:39   
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=16307)  
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=99469&TOPIC_ID=6187&FORUM_ID=13)   
____________________________________
   Sounds  pretty good. Thanks Chezkatie   
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6187#top)    
_Michael  Hoffman_ 
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=67) 
Filet Mignon

2708  Posts     Posted - 01/14/2005 :  15:06:05   
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=67)  
(javascript:openWindow('pop_messengers.asp?mode=AIM&ID=67'))  
(javascript:openWindow('pop_messengers.asp?mode=MSN&ID=67'))  
(http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=99473&TOPIC_ID=6187&FORUM_ID=13)   
____________________________________
   Heck,  that's Rigatoni con il pollo. And they call it Chicken Riggies?  
Sheesh

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 13 15:07:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:07:14 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$2u6j4d@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

That's a beautiful statement of the problem, Larry. I have to say that
you've got me. I'm not going to try to answer the question. But I'll
certainly ponder it.

-Wilson

On Jun 7, 2005, at 4:07 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Jon, I don't think that there's anyone who knows anything about
>> lynching who thinks that a lynching can be only a hanging. Emmitt Till
>> wasn't hanged. In a famous lynching in Omaha, the lynchee was to a
>> railroad crosstie and burned alive. There was a lynching in Missouri
>> in which the lynchee was tied to the roof of a building, which was
>> then burned down around him. During the Waco Horror, the lynchee was
>> suspended by chains from a tree limb and roasted to death over a slow
>> fire. Don't underestimate American ingenuity.
>>
>> -Wilson
>
> But did any of these involve cases in which someone was pulled over,
> thrown into a car or whatever, and taken to their place of execution?
> The prototype instance of lynching (or so this would be suggested
> from e.g. the very powerful displays of photographs documenting
> lynching that traveled around to different museums recently) seem to
> involve kidnapping someone from official custody and/or hanging, if
> not both, rather than (as with Liuzzo and Chaney/Goodman/Schwerner)
> seizing someone who was at liberty and executing them, even when the
> reason has to do with racism.  Otherwise, what *is* the definition?
> *Any* murder by vigilantes motivated by racism or religious
> prejudice?  (The AHD entry does specify "especially by hanging",
> FWIW.)  For example, did that fairly recent instance in which an
> African-American man was picked out at random by some white racists
> who dragged him to his death with their truck count as a lynching?
> Or do the perpetrators have to be motivated by the belief that
> society *ought* to put someone to death but won't, so they have to
> take the law into their own hands?  Maybe this is really another case
> of lexical prototypes.
>
> Larry
>
>> On 6/5/05, Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>>  Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
>>>  Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>  FWIW, "lynching" has never been restricted to hanging, though in
>>> modern usage that does seem to be the usual connotation.
>>> Undoubtedly it's been influenced by innumerable movie lynchings of
>>> hoss and cattle thieves who are uniformly hanged by vigilantes.
>>>
>>>  JL
>>>
>>>  Laurence Horn  wrote:
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  Poster: Laurence Horn
>>>  Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>  At 3:03 AM -0400 6/5/05, Sam Clements wrote:
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Wilson Gray"
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Jesus! - you should pardon the expression - how long have you been
>>>>> living in this country, Ben? Are you really so unaware of the way
>>>>> that
>>>>> things were and are? Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>>>>> lynching of blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>>>>> practice?
>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you're referring to Goodman and Schwermer, I'd hardly
>>> call lynching
>>>> of Jews in the Sixties a "commonplace practice."
>>>>
>>>  And technically, IIRC, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner (along
>>>  with James Chaney, who was of course black and not a Jew) were not
>>>  lynched, nor was Violet Liuzzo (who was neither, but another
>>> murdered
>>>  civil rights volunteer), although other whites working alongside
>>>  blacks during those years may well have been murdered by lynching
>>> (as
>>>  opposed to shooting, stabbing, burning, etc.) during the era of
>>>  voting registrations drives and freedom riding. I can't recall
>>>  hearing about any whites (Jewish or not) who were, though.
>>>
>>>  Larry
>>>
>>>  __________________________________________________
>>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>>  Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Wilson Gray
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 13 15:14:13 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:14:13 -0400
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
In-Reply-To: <44774u$39t4gq@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 11, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: Yellow Taxi (1909)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> No help, of course, but before 1965 or '66 NYC cabs came in various
> colors. At that time yellow was standardized to help distinguish
> medallion cabs from "gypsies," for which yellow was proscribed.
>
> JL

Is there no Yellow Cab Company in The City? Was the Red Skelton movie.
"The Yellow Cab Man," all a lie, then?

-Wilson

>
> bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> http://www.barrypopik.com/article/997/taxi-the-word-taxicab-and-the-
> yellow-color
> ...
> http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/06/09/
> taxi_cabs_might_be_redesigned.php
> June 09, 2005
> Taxi Cabs Might Be Redesigned
> The Design Trust for Public Space is working with the Taxi and
> Limousine Commission to see new designs for taxi cabs, to celebrate
> 100 years of taxi cabs in 2007.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> Does anyone have anything for the "yellow" origin? Were the first
> taxis red?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 13 15:26:15 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:26:15 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$e9h1gt@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 10, 2005, at 11:59 PM, Sam Clements wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Sam Clements 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:31 PM
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
>> On Jun 5, 2005, at 3:03 AM, Sam Clements wrote:
>
>>> Poster:       Sam Clements 
>>> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Wilson Gray" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>>
>>>
>>>> Of course. It will be my honor.
>>>>
>>>> In 1968. there was a television show on one of the Big Three devoted
>>>> to the careers of two uknown female song stylists, one white and one
>>>> black. Unfortunately, the unknown white singer's career came from
>>>> nowhere and went nowhere. I'd never heard of her at the time and
>>>> have
>>>> not heard of her since. Hence, her name escapes me.
>>>
>>> Her name was Gloria Loring.  The show, titled "The Singers," was
>>> aired
>>> on
>>> ABC on May 11, 1968.   But your characterization of the show as
>>> "devoted to
>>> the careers of two unknown female song stylists" is incorrect.
>>
>> It's not *my* characterization. it's the way that the show was
>> advertised and presented. Maybe you had to have been there and seen
>> the
>> TV program and seen the TV ads preceding it. That program was
>> memorable
>> for only one thing: equating Aretha with a nobody, despite the fact
>> that Aretha had long been somebody. What could have motivated that, do
>> you think? The fact that ABC's boss was Aretha's number-one fan,
>> perhaps? And why would Aretha have acceded to such an insulting
>> juxtaposition? We could have been wrong, but, at the time, most black
>> people figured it was that she needed the exposure to white America.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> You're right--I don't remember watching the show, even though I was 24
> at
> the time.

>   I certainly knew who Aretha was,  but I guess it's always
> possible that no one at ABC did.  They just picked her name out of a
> hat.
> If you ask me to decide on how the show portrayed Ms. Franklin based
> on your
> 37-year-old memory and my reading of a few dozen newspaper reviews and
> stories from the time, then I go with the print cites.
>
>>> Every major
>>> newspaper I can read on Proquest make it clear that Aretha was big
>>> time
>>
>> That is precisely my point. Oh, I'm sorry. You mean that old newspaper
>> stories have persuaded you that she was considered big time by *white*
>> people.
>
> I don't get the point that you're making.  She was considered big time
> by
> all of America.
>
>>> ("Respect" had won her a Grammy
>>
>> And, of course, given that the Grammy-winners are selected by means of
>> a vote by the general public, it naturally  follows, as the night the
>> day, that Aretha was clearly the darling of the general white-American
>> public.
>>
>
> All I meant was that she was well-known.  She wasn't some unknown.
>
>>>  earlier that year) and Loring was a
>>> newbie.
>>
>> The word that you're searching for is "nobody."
>>
> Actually, I wasn't searching.  I used the word I meant.  Aretha had
> arrived,
> Loring was a newbie on the scene.  That juxtaposition was part of the
> show.
> Oh!  I forgot--you saw the show and Aretha was presented as a nobody.
> My
> bad.
>
>
>
>>>> Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the average person on
>>>> the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave a
>>>> Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line
>>>> by
>>>> 1967. Q.E.D.
>>>
>
> Perhaps it was clear to you.  I think that the term you were searching
> for
> was not Q.E.D. but rather IMO.
>
> Sam Clements
>

You''re right, of course. The use of Q.E.D. was not serious.

-Wilson Gray

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 13 15:49:32 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:49:32 -0700
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?
Fritz J

>>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/10/05 07:42PM >>>
You learn something every day...

The New Yorker, famously careful about both facts and usage, printed
the following, in Elizabeth Kolbert's Letter from Alaska: "Last
words: A language dies" (about Eyak), 6 June 2005, p. 59:

-----
The project was largely the work of a former TV reporter from
Anchorage named Laura Bliss Spaan.  She first heard about the Eyak in
1992, when she was sent to Cordova to cover the Ice Worm Festival.
"When Eyak gets ahold of you, it's really hard to escape," she
explained to me.
-----

The "ahold" caught my eye.

The OED treats the relevant idiom as "get (a) hold of", though it has
some cites for the spellings "a-hold" and "ahold".  MWDEU notes that
verbs other than "get" are possible ("catch" and "take", for
instance) and that when the preposition following "hold" is anything
other than "of", the "a" is required:
   get a hold over / *get hold over
   catch a hold on/*catch hold on
(my examples), but that "V hold of" does not have "a", "in the idiom
of the majority of English speakers and writers from Shakespeare to
the present" (p. 59).  "Since the late 19th century, the minority
idiom with "a" seems to have been gaining in respectability, but it
is still primarily a spoken rather than a written form."

The version with "a" doesn't sound at all colloquial/nonstandard/etc.
to *me*, and when "hold" is modified the "a" is required:
   get a firm/quick/tenuous/... hold of
  *get firm/quick/tenuous/... hold of

In any case, what really caught my eye was the *spelling*: "ahold"
rather than "a hold".  Since the "a" here seems pretty clearly to be
the indefinite article, the spelling "ahold" strikes me as similar to
the spelling "alot" for "a lot".  Consequently, my first reading of
the quote from Spaan was that Kolbert was using eye dialect --
representing Spaan as the sort of person who would spell "a hold of"
as "ahold of".  In the context, that seemed gratuitous.

Then I thought that maybe this was one (presumably from Kolbert
herself) that just got past the copy editors.

But then I checked out MWDEU and discovered piles of examples of
"ahold" from quoted speech.  In fact, MWDEU maintains: "When
transcribed from speech, [the idiom] is generally styled as one word,
_ahold_."

Well, I didn't know that.  It still looks odd to me.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 13 15:48:57 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:48:57 -0500
Subject: "pencil whip"
Message-ID: 

"pencil whip" -- not in OED -- to falsify records

Most modern citations from Factiva, etc., seem to refer to the aviation
industry.  But it may be of a military origin.

Pennsylvania | North Hills | News Record | 1993-03-26 p. 1 col 6.
"USAir repair probe grows" by Michael Diamond
"The falsified records, known in the airline industry as
"pencil-whipping," could result in fines if it is shown USAir knowingly
allowed them to occur, Pardue said."

 Illinois | Chicago | Daily Herald | 1989-08-07 sec 4 p. 1 col 4.
"Pow! Full-contact golf would sell those PGA tickets" by Mike Imrem
"Additionally, anybody who has ever played for money knows golfers who
kick-box balls out of the woods, pencil-whip their rivals and wrestle
with their handicaps."

Oakland | The Oakland Tribune | 1966-11-03 p. 22 col 3.
"Highway Funds: Crooks' Paradise" by Edward J. Mowery
" "Shade tree" compaction test sampling and "pencil whipping," the
lawmakers learned, permitted highway workers to sit "comfortably" under
a shade tree and "falsify" reports in "eight minutes." "

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jun 13 15:55:34 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:55:34 +0200
Subject: "pencil whip"
In-Reply-To: <20050613154858.AC5FB842@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> "pencil whip" -- not in OED -- to falsify records

Pencil whip seems to mean different things to different people. Wordspy
defined pencil whip as "To severely criticize, especially as a member of the
media." See

http://www.wordspy.com/words/pencil-whip.asp

Paul
_________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 13 16:00:23 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:00:23 -0500
Subject: "pencil whip"
Message-ID: 

Thanks.  I found a quote in a different sports article in which I
couldn't understand it; but it was this sense, and it makes sense now.

I also found it used in an article about buying a car, in which a
salesman might "pencil whip" you by adding on various fees, etc.

But I think the primary meaning is the one I quoted -- to falsify
records.  At least, most of the cites I found (of which I only listed
the three) wer of this sense.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Frank
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:56 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "pencil whip"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Paul Frank 
> Subject:      Re: "pencil whip"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> > Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> > "pencil whip" -- not in OED -- to falsify records
>
> Pencil whip seems to mean different things to different
> people. Wordspy defined pencil whip as "To severely
> criticize, especially as a member of the media." See
>
> http://www.wordspy.com/words/pencil-whip.asp
>
>
> Paul
> _________________________
> Paul Frank
> Chinese-English translator
> paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
> www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 13 16:17:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:17:51 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$dspeiq@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 6, 2005, at 7:49 PM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:03:56 -0400,  Wilson Gray
> _hwgray at GMAIL.COM_ (mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM)
> writes:
>
>> Clearly, neither the white power structure nor the  average person on
>> the white street had any idea who Aretha Franklin was or even gave  a
>> Roosevelt damn. Aretha Franklin had not crossed over the color line
>> by
>> 1967. Q.E.D.
>
>
>
> Kermit Schafer, ed _Blooper Parade_ Greenwich CT: Fawcett Publications
>  Inc.,
> 1968, no ISBN.  The following appears on page 76 of the Fawcett Gold
> Medal
> paperback edition
>
> 
> DISC JOCKEY:  ". . . .and here now is another million seller sung by
> popular
> Uretha Franklin...Aretha
> 
>
> "Clearly" Kermit Schafer in 1968 expected his readers, the  majority
> of whom
> were your "average person on the white street", to  recognize the name
> "Aretha
> Franklin" instantly.  As for the TV show you  cite, well, Richard Head
> Esq.
> shows up disproportianately often on major TV  networks, both then and
> now.
>
> For what it is worth, I was invited to a "Motown Party" that was
> thrown in
> the mostly-white college dormitory I inhabited in 1966-67.
>
>
>> a black male singer was quoted as saying that, if
>> Tom  Jones could make a million dollars a year singing like a black
>> man, then  a black man ought to be able to make $50,000 a year singing
>> like himself.  Unfortunately, the man was living in a dream.
>
>
> I don't know the relative chronologies of Jones and Elvis Presley, but
> I
> recall reading that Presley was picked up by record promoters because
> he was "a
> white man who sang like a [black man]".

Elvis was before Tom Jones. I've heard and read that Elvis supposedly
sang like a black man, but I've never understood it. IMO, Elvis sang
uniquely like Elvis. Saying that he sang like a black man is like
saying that Chuck Berry sang like a white man, it seems to me. They
were both new departures from the usual. People like Carl Perkins, Roy
"The Houston Flash" Head, Tony Joe White, and even Bobby Darrin, to
pick some names at random, struck me more as white men who sang like a
black man than Elvis ever did.

FWIW, Ray Sharpe, OTOH, struck me as a black man who sang like a white
man.

-Wilson Gray

>
>> Don't you recall that, in the _'Sixties,_ the
>> lynching of  blacks and even of some Jews was still a commonplace
>> practice?
>
> I will challenge this statement.  While in high school (1959-65) I
> conscientiously followed news about race relations, Segregation, Civil
>  RIghts, etc, in
> the South.  During that period I recall reading of exactly  TWO
> lynchings,
> one in 1963 and the other one earlier, both of which were  followed by
> ferocious
> responses by the Federal government.  To the best of  my knowledge,
> these
> were the last lynchings to occur in the United States.   If I am
> wrong, please be
> specific.
>
> This is an important matter.  In the 1960's there was a widespread
> belief in
> foreign countries that lynching was commonplace in the  US.  This
> belief,
> true or not, had a significant impact on world-wide  reaction to the
> Vietnam War
> (I need only cite Bertrand Russell, who stated in  writing what he
> thought was
> occurring with respect to lynchings, as an  example.)
>
>     - James A. Landau
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 13 16:18:18 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:18:18 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 13, 2005, at 8:49 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING asks me:

> How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?

as MWDEU points out, the spelling "awhile" for the object of a
preposition has been very widely deplored, but it is nevertheless
very frequent.

this is entirely a matter of spelling, and in matters of spelling my
own practice is pretty conservative; english spelling is full of
arbitrariness, so spelling is one place where i think a fairly high
degree of uniformity is desirable.  i myself would write "for a
while", especially since "while" here is modifiable, as in "for a
(very) long while", in which case the article "a" must be separated
from "while". (similar reasoning applies to "alot" and, as i pointed
out in my first posting, "ahold".)

but i recognize that widespread nonstandard spellings always have a
good motivation and are not evidences of ignorance, illiteracy, or
anything of the sort, so i don't froth at the mouth, despair that
civilization is coming to an end, or peg the writers who use them as
inferior beings.

i notice "for awhile", but i understand that that's mostly just me.
i don't alter it in my students' writing.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 13 16:29:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:29:51 -0400
Subject: -en > -ing
Message-ID: 

This morning, Katie Couric spoke of Tutankhamen's "_golding_ mask."

-Wilson Gray

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Jun 13 16:31:19 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:31:19 -0400
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

        Very civilized.  What are your views on supercede and alright?

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Arnold M. Zwicky
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:18 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: ahold

On Jun 13, 2005, at 8:49 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING asks me:

> How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?

as MWDEU points out, the spelling "awhile" for the object of a
preposition has been very widely deplored, but it is nevertheless
very frequent.

this is entirely a matter of spelling, and in matters of spelling my
own practice is pretty conservative; english spelling is full of
arbitrariness, so spelling is one place where i think a fairly high
degree of uniformity is desirable.  i myself would write "for a
while", especially since "while" here is modifiable, as in "for a
(very) long while", in which case the article "a" must be separated
from "while". (similar reasoning applies to "alot" and, as i pointed
out in my first posting, "ahold".)

but i recognize that widespread nonstandard spellings always have a
good motivation and are not evidences of ignorance, illiteracy, or
anything of the sort, so i don't froth at the mouth, despair that
civilization is coming to an end, or peg the writers who use them as
inferior beings.

i notice "for awhile", but i understand that that's mostly just me.
i don't alter it in my students' writing.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun 13 16:40:09 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:40:09 -0700
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
In-Reply-To: <200506110223.1dGZoR45J3Nl34m0@mx-casero.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

Slightly off-topic, but I recall that "yellow cab" is slang for a Japanese
woman, generally tourist, who will sleep with anyone. I think I was told
it's a Hawaiian word. This must go back at least 10 years.

I can't find this meaning on Google and don't have a good slang dictionary
at my disposal...

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
bapopik at AOL.COM
...
Does anyone have anything for the "yellow" origin? Were the first taxis red?

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Jun 13 16:55:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:55:20 +0100
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
In-Reply-To: <200506131639.j5DGdx6l025577@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 13/6/05 5:40 pm, Benjamin Barrett at gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett 
> Subject:      Re: Yellow Taxi (1909)
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> Slightly off-topic, but I recall that "yellow cab" is slang for a Japanese
> woman, generally tourist, who will sleep with anyone. I think I was told
> it's a Hawaiian word. This must go back at least 10 years.
>
> I can't find this meaning on Google and don't have a good slang dictionary
> at my disposal...
>
"In 1990, the terms 'yellow cab' and 'resalovers' became current. The former
[...] was a reference to Japanese girls in New Ysork, 'cruising and readily
available.'" -- The Times magazine, 3 June 1995

--Neil Crawford

> Benjamin Barrett
> Baking the World a Better Place
> www.hiroki.us
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> bapopik at AOL.COM
> ...
> Does anyone have anything for the "yellow" origin? Were the first taxis red?

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 13 17:13:02 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:13:02 -0400
Subject: -en > -ing
In-Reply-To: <7d44ca7ae6e5a8de77782270f387ae9c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

I'm not surprised.  Her elevated status constantly amazes me.

At 12:29 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote:
>This morning, Katie Couric spoke of Tutankhamen's "_golding_ mask."
>
>-Wilson Gray

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 13 17:18:39 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:18:39 -0700
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

I've seen 'awhile' a zillion times and 'alot' 8 zillion times.  My question is 'what's going on in the heads of people who write this?" I do not mean this this in a derogatory way-I am really curious to know what they are thinking--is 'awhile' one word for them; does it mean 'period or time'?  I guess 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.  It just seems odd to me, as each set is made up of two clearly separate words for me.

On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl, the other day in several of my classes, we were discussing the use of tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of "Did you get the mail yet?"   I asked the classes whether this sentence bothers them.  Usually, I get about a third to half who are bothered by it.  One girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't see how it could be a problem in any way and did not understand the conflict that this sentence creates in my head.  I pointed out that this is an example of different Sprachgef?hle that we have.

Fritz J

>>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 09:18AM >>>
On Jun 13, 2005, at 8:49 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING asks me:

> How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?

as MWDEU points out, the spelling "awhile" for the object of a
preposition has been very widely deplored, but it is nevertheless
very frequent.

this is entirely a matter of spelling, and in matters of spelling my
own practice is pretty conservative; english spelling is full of
arbitrariness, so spelling is one place where i think a fairly high
degree of uniformity is desirable.  i myself would write "for a
while", especially since "while" here is modifiable, as in "for a
(very) long while", in which case the article "a" must be separated
from "while". (similar reasoning applies to "alot" and, as i pointed
out in my first posting, "ahold".)

but i recognize that widespread nonstandard spellings always have a
good motivation and are not evidences of ignorance, illiteracy, or
anything of the sort, so i don't froth at the mouth, despair that
civilization is coming to an end, or peg the writers who use them as
inferior beings.

i notice "for awhile", but i understand that that's mostly just me.
i don't alter it in my students' writing.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 13 17:34:25 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:34:25 -0400
Subject: PISEBY and BANANA
Message-ID: 

13 June 2005, New York Post, pg. 12, col. 4:
"Besides, the PISEBY [put it in someone else's back yard] attitude of the NYC BANANA [build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone] people in city government is making our environment worse, as landfills not only leak, but emit toxic and harmful gases," Lauber continued.
(Dr. Jack Lauber, former chief of technology assessment for the state Environmental Conservation Department--ed.)

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 13 18:06:59 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:06:59 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACE2D@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 13, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John Baker asks:

> ... What are your views on supercede and alright?

i generally correct "supercede" and "idiosyncracy", but i'm not
entirely sure this is a good use of my time and other people's.
especially since these two occur in the writing of highly educated
careful writers, including some linguists, and they aren't slips of
the pen.

on "alright", see MWDEU again.  i've totally given up on this one,
though i myself write "all right".  it's just one of my little quirks.

the situation with "alright" has gone so far that a great many people
perceive the spelling "all right" as the innovation -- and an
ignorant one at that.  several people have written me with the
suggestion that "all right" is in fact an eggcorn, a mistaken
reanalysis of the unitary "alright"!  and they can explain why
"alright" is phonologically, syntactically, and semantically a unit,
so should not be written as two words.  on the semantic side, they
point out that absolutely none of their uses of "alright" can be
paraphrased as "completely correct".  some even observe that they do
have the expression "all right" in sentences like "Your answers are
all right" 'All of your answers are right', but that this is
phonologically, syntactically, and semantically distinct from their
"alright"; note "Your answers are all, every one of them, right".
this is excellent reasoning, and at this point i'm not willing to
maintain that all these sensitive observations are irrelevant and
that the correct spelling is "all right", just because.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 13 18:21:00 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:21:00 -0400
Subject: query about an isogloss (pos. "anymore")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:43 AM -0400 6/10/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>I'm pleased to see that "jack off," an old friend that I first met in
>St. Louis in 1949 ["If your uncle Jack was stuck on a telephone pole,
>would you help your uncle jack off?"],

And let's not forget the locus classicus:

Office manager to employee:  "Jill, I have a terrible problem--I have
to lay you or Jack off"
Employee:  "Well, you better jack off.  I have a bitch of a headache."

"Jerk off" just doesn't do it here.

Larry

>is still alive and kicking, in
>print, at least, and has not been entirely swept away by the
>Johnny-come-lately (to my vocabulary, anyhow) "jerk off."
>

From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 13 18:21:22 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:21:22 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

arnold,

There is at least one more reason (other than saving your valuable
time) why you should stop messing with 'supercede,' as MW tells us:

  Etymology: Middle English superceden

Course, Latin and French have the 's.'

dInIs

PS: This would also please the 'things oughta be like they uster' crowd.

>On Jun 13, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John Baker asks:
>
>>... What are your views on supercede and alright?
>
>i generally correct "supercede" and "idiosyncracy", but i'm not
>entirely sure this is a good use of my time and other people's.
>especially since these two occur in the writing of highly educated
>careful writers, including some linguists, and they aren't slips of
>the pen.
>
>on "alright", see MWDEU again.  i've totally given up on this one,
>though i myself write "all right".  it's just one of my little quirks.
>
>the situation with "alright" has gone so far that a great many people
>perceive the spelling "all right" as the innovation -- and an
>ignorant one at that.  several people have written me with the
>suggestion that "all right" is in fact an eggcorn, a mistaken
>reanalysis of the unitary "alright"!  and they can explain why
>"alright" is phonologically, syntactically, and semantically a unit,
>so should not be written as two words.  on the semantic side, they
>point out that absolutely none of their uses of "alright" can be
>paraphrased as "completely correct".  some even observe that they do
>have the expression "all right" in sentences like "Your answers are
>all right" 'All of your answers are right', but that this is
>phonologically, syntactically, and semantically distinct from their
>"alright"; note "Your answers are all, every one of them, right".
>this is excellent reasoning, and at this point i'm not willing to
>maintain that all these sensitive observations are irrelevant and
>that the correct spelling is "all right", just because.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 13 18:30:22 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:30:22 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:18 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> I've seen 'awhile' a zillion times and 'alot' 8 zillion times.  My
> question is 'what's going on in the heads of people who write
> this?" I do not mean this this in a derogatory way-I am really
> curious to know what they are thinking--is 'awhile' one word for
> them; does it mean 'period or time'?

yes.  and yes.

> I guess 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.  It just
> seems odd to me, as each set is made up of two clearly separate
> words for me.

well, different people have somewhat different grammmars.  the
question is when we should be trying to regulate uniformity, even if
just in formal standard written language.  a lot of the time, it
seems to me, we should just recognize variability, and get on with life.

> On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl,

this worries me a bit.  talking about Sprachgefuehl suggests that
there is a language, English, out there, and individual people differ
as to how good a "feel" they have for it.  that's not what you say
below, but the word raises a flag for me.

> the other day in several of my classes, we were discussing the use
> of tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of "Did you get
> the mail yet?"   I asked the classes whether this sentence bothers
> them.  Usually, I get about a third to half who are bothered by
> it.  One girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't see
> how it could be a problem in any way and did not understand the
> conflict that this sentence creates in my head.

the use of the simple past form for perfect semantics is an extremely
widespread americanism, used naturally by a great many educated
people who are skillful writers.  me, for instance.  i would be
extremely hesitant to call it nonstandard.

we all cope with differences in all sorts of features of grammar and
lexicon.  why not accommodate here?

up to this point, you seem to be saying that your student should
learn to accommodate to you, presumably by abandoning the usage that
you have trouble with.  your student could equally well insist that
you should accommodate to her, by becoming aware of her tense usage,
even if you don't use it yourself.

>   I pointed out that this is an example of different Sprachgef?hle
> that we have.

now *this* is formulated neutrally, essentially in terms of grammar
differences.  but what lesson were you trying to teach?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun 13 18:39:16 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:39:16 -0700
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
In-Reply-To: <200506131255.1dHSdW78j3Nl34c2@mx-stork.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

That sounds about right. It's interesting to hear about the word on the East
Coast. BB

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
neil

> Slightly off-topic, but I recall that "yellow cab" is slang for a
> Japanese woman, generally tourist, who will sleep with anyone. I think
> I was told it's a Hawaiian word. This must go back at least 10 years.
>
> I can't find this meaning on Google and don't have a good slang
> dictionary at my disposal...
>
"In 1990, the terms 'yellow cab' and 'resalovers' became current. The former
[...] was a reference to Japanese girls in New Ysork, 'cruising and readily
available.'" -- The Times magazine, 3 June 1995

--Neil Crawford

From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 13 18:41:20 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:41:20 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <442DDBCA-55A2-485B-8B3C-3F488A2D2207@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

It is a well-known (and even published fact) that
many otherwise informed and even intelligent
people believe that languages exist.

dInIs

>On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:18 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
>
>>On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl,
>
>and arbnold said

>this worries me a bit.  talking about Sprachgefuehl suggests that
>there is a language, English, out there, and individual people differ
>as to how good a "feel" they have for it.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Jun 13 19:00:21 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:00:21 -0400
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

        It seems to me that anyone who is going to use a $2 word like supersede or idiosyncrasy should take the trouble to learn how to spell it.  While the same argument does not apply to "alright," I believe it is out of place in formal writing.

        I had to ask myself why I am so comfortable with these shibboleths when I have no trouble splitting infinitives or beginning a sentence with "hopefully."  My answer was that there can be a real linguistic value to splitting an infinitive or using "hopefully"; those constructions allow meanings that could not otherwise be communicated in the same number of words.  The only advantage gained by "alright," I've always supposed, is to save a letter and a space, which I consider too pedestrian to be a justification.  The unitary nature of "all right" I do not consider to be a good argument against writing it as two words; there are too many unitary terms that are written as two words to require citation.  However, if there is a real distinction in meaning between "all right" and "alright," as your example "Your answers are all right" suggests, then I suppose I will have to reconsider my position.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Arnold M. Zwicky
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:07 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: ahold

On Jun 13, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John Baker asks:

> ... What are your views on supercede and alright?

i generally correct "supercede" and "idiosyncracy", but i'm not
entirely sure this is a good use of my time and other people's.
especially since these two occur in the writing of highly educated
careful writers, including some linguists, and they aren't slips of
the pen.

on "alright", see MWDEU again.  i've totally given up on this one,
though i myself write "all right".  it's just one of my little quirks.

the situation with "alright" has gone so far that a great many people
perceive the spelling "all right" as the innovation -- and an
ignorant one at that.  several people have written me with the
suggestion that "all right" is in fact an eggcorn, a mistaken
reanalysis of the unitary "alright"!  and they can explain why
"alright" is phonologically, syntactically, and semantically a unit,
so should not be written as two words.  on the semantic side, they
point out that absolutely none of their uses of "alright" can be
paraphrased as "completely correct".  some even observe that they do
have the expression "all right" in sentences like "Your answers are
all right" 'All of your answers are right', but that this is
phonologically, syntactically, and semantically distinct from their
"alright"; note "Your answers are all, every one of them, right".
this is excellent reasoning, and at this point i'm not willing to
maintain that all these sensitive observations are irrelevant and
that the correct spelling is "all right", just because.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Jun 13 19:18:41 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:18:41 -0700
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

>>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 11:30AM >>>
On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:18 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> I guess 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.  It just
> seems odd to me, as each set is made up of two clearly separate
> words for me.

well, different people have somewhat different grammmars.  the
question is when we should be trying to regulate uniformity, even if
just in formal standard written language.  a lot of the time, it
seems to me, we should just recognize variability, and get on with life.

I am not trying to regulate, just wanting to know what people are thinking.

> On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl,

this worries me a bit.  talking about Sprachgefuehl suggests that
there is a language, English, out there, and individual people differ
as to how good a "feel" they have for it.  that's not what you say
below, but the word raises a flag for me.

I don't think it should raise a red flag.  Perhaps we have different understandings of the word 'Sprachgef?hl.'  Yes, I know that the English translation is 'feeling for language,' but that definition is inadequate.  That's why I use the German word.

> the other day in several of my classes, we were discussing the use
> of tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of "Did you get
> the mail yet?"   I asked the classes whether this sentence bothers
> them.  Usually, I get about a third to half who are bothered by
> it.  One girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't see
> how it could be a problem in any way and did not understand the
> conflict that this sentence creates in my head.

the use of the simple past form for perfect semantics is an extremely
widespread americanism, used naturally by a great many educated
people who are skillful writers.  me, for instance.  i would be
extremely hesitant to call it nonstandard.

Yes, I know it's widespread in the US and I do not consider it nonstandard or wrong, just different.  The 'yet' makes the preterite impossible for me in that sentence.

we all cope with differences in all sorts of features of grammar and
lexicon.  why not accommodate here?

I do.

up to this point, you seem to be saying that your student should
learn to accommodate to you, presumably by abandoning the usage that
you have trouble with.  your student could equally well insist that
you should accommodate to her, by becoming aware of her tense usage,
even if you don't use it yourself.

No, if I came across that way, it was unintentional.  I am not, nor did I in class, suggest(ing) that anyone give up any usage or accomodate to anyone else's speech.
I don't think she even thought I was telling her to change; she just didn't understand how it could be a problem for anyone.

>   I pointed out that this is an example of different Sprachgef?hle
> that we have.

now *this* is formulated neutrally, essentially in terms of grammar
differences.  but what lesson were you trying to teach?

The lesson was really about German verb tenses--although the forms are the same as those in English, the uses are not exactly the same.  The English examples were to point out that different dialects of English--and speakers from the same dialect (if that's possible, now that we have pointed out a difference)--might have different usages.

Fritz
arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 13 21:09:09 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:09:09 -0700
Subject: "pencil whip"
Message-ID: 

The broad sense is "to victimize (a person) in any way, by means of a written document or notation  of any kind."  The original sense seems to have been, as Bill observes, "to falsify (a record or report)."

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: "pencil whip"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks. I found a quote in a different sports article in which I
couldn't understand it; but it was this sense, and it makes sense now.

I also found it used in an article about buying a car, in which a
salesman might "pencil whip" you by adding on various fees, etc.

But I think the primary meaning is the one I quoted -- to falsify
records. At least, most of the cites I found (of which I only listed
the three) wer of this sense.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Frank
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:56 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "pencil whip"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Paul Frank

> Subject: Re: "pencil whip"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> > Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
> > "pencil whip" -- not in OED -- to falsify records
>
> Pencil whip seems to mean different things to different
> people. Wordspy defined pencil whip as "To severely
> criticize, especially as a member of the media." See
>
> http://www.wordspy.com/words/pencil-whip.asp
>
>
> Paul
> _________________________
> Paul Frank
> Chinese-English translator
> paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
> www.languagejottings.blogspot.com
>

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 13 21:11:45 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:11:45 -0700
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
Message-ID: 

New to me.

JL

Benjamin Barrett  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Barrett
Subject: Re: Yellow Taxi (1909)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Slightly off-topic, but I recall that "yellow cab" is slang for a Japanese
woman, generally tourist, who will sleep with anyone. I think I was told
it's a Hawaiian word. This must go back at least 10 years.

I can't find this meaning on Google and don't have a good slang dictionary
at my disposal...

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
bapopik at AOL.COM
...
Does anyone have anything for the "yellow" origin? Were the first taxis red?

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 13 22:49:17 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:49:17 -0500
Subject: superhero
Message-ID: 

Superhero -- OED has 1917

The Atlanta Constitution; Dec 5, 1909; pg. 14 col 7 "Some Omitted Heroes
(From the Baltimore Sun)"
"And so it happens that many of the nations super-heroes do not appear
upon the Carnegie list."

Los Angeles Times; Jul 21, 1912; sec III p. 21, col 3.
"New Books Reviewed" by Williard Huntington Wright
"Peter is, in fact, a sort of super-hero, a trans-leading-man, a Cyclops
of unselfishness, a Dreadnought of duty."

Pennsylvania | Clearfield | The Clearfield Progress | 1915-10-25  p. 4
col 5.
"Warring Airmen Observe Curious "Code of Honor" " by William Philip
Sims, UPI
"Psychologists ask if the warfare in the sky isn't developing the
superhero to whom killing is a sport and death but defeat, like arriving
second in a hundred yard dash. "

The OED SF project has 1942 for an SF sense: "a person with superpowers
who uses them to fight crime".

Wisconsin | Oshkosh | The Oshkosh Northwestern | 1936-03-09 p. 2 col 1.
"OLDTIMERS GLORY FOR DAY IN TALL TALES AND MEAL" (Associated Press)
[referring to Paul Bunyan]
"Laughingly they sat on logs placed around bonfires, did justice to a
mean which Chief Cook Gus Weber claimed was the equal of Paul's great
black duck dinner, and improved on the yarns told about the superhero."

Washington Post; Nov 3, 1939; pg. 24, col 1. [advertisement for Superman
comic strip]
"Every week this paper will carry the extraordinary exploits of the 20th
Century's Super-Hero in colors!"

From Berson at ATT.NET  Tue Jun 14 00:38:56 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:38:56 -0400
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
Message-ID: 

At 6/13/2005 12:55 PM, you wrote:
> > I can't find this meaning on Google and don't have a good slang dictionary
> > at my disposal...
> >
>"In 1990, the terms 'yellow cab' and 'resalovers' became current. The former
>[...] was a reference to Japanese girls in New Ysork, 'cruising and readily
>available.'" -- The Times magazine, 3 June 1995
>
>--Neil Crawford

Slightly earlier, googling:
(from the New School, NYC)
http://www.newschool.edu/gf/publicculture/backissues/pc14/kelsky.html

Public Culture. Spring 1994.  Volume 6, Number 3
"'Intimate Ideologies: Transnational Theory and Japan's 'Yellow Cabs'"
by Karen Kelsky
[This seems to be a description, linked from the table of contents, and the
article itself is not on-line.]

  In Japan, a "yellow cab" is not a taxi. Instead, "yellow cab" is a
pejorative label for young Japanese women who pursue short-term erotic
adventures abroad with foreign (especially African-American) men, because
they are allegedly "yellow" and "as easy to hail as a taxi." Japanese men
condemn these women, who themselves claim that the deficiencies of men in
Japan encourage them to search elsewhere.

Anthropologist Karen Kelsky discusses the yellow cab phenomenon in her
essay "Intimate Ideologies: Transnational Theory and Japan's 'Yellow Cabs'."

Joel

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 14 00:59:18 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:59:18 -0400
Subject: embarras d'eggcorn
In-Reply-To: <20050613040007.EEC42B25D2@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

laurentius scripsit:
>>>
The "saga" is quite possibly a typo, the "advise" a simple
misspelling that I suspect I've encountered in students' papers.  But
the "roll-a-coaster" is the interesting one, and not novel or unique
to this writer.  Google has 411 hits, some literal, some 'emotional'.
<<<

And "sing-a-long".

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
   http://filk.cracksandshards.com

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 14 02:25:35 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:25:35 -0400
Subject: Corny
Message-ID: 

>From MacNN discussions:

"Apple is dead. Woe is me! (Gnashing of teeth and _rendering_ of garments)."

--
-Wilson Gray

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 14 02:53:58 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:53:58 -0400
Subject: Yellow Taxi (1909)
In-Reply-To: <42ae2734.7126d231.3a5b.4779SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

"Yellow Cab Company ? America's most trusted taxicab service."

So, there really is a "Yellow Cab Company."

-Wilson Gray

On 6/13/05, Joel S. Berson  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" 
> Subject:      Re: Yellow Taxi (1909)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 6/13/2005 12:55 PM, you wrote:
> > > I can't find this meaning on Google and don't have a good slang dictionary
> > > at my disposal...
> > >
> >"In 1990, the terms 'yellow cab' and 'resalovers' became current. The former
> >[...] was a reference to Japanese girls in New Ysork, 'cruising and readily
> >available.'" -- The Times magazine, 3 June 1995
> >
> >--Neil Crawford
>
> Slightly earlier, googling:
> (from the New School, NYC)
> http://www.newschool.edu/gf/publicculture/backissues/pc14/kelsky.html
>
> Public Culture. Spring 1994.  Volume 6, Number 3
> "'Intimate Ideologies: Transnational Theory and Japan's 'Yellow Cabs'"
> by Karen Kelsky
> [This seems to be a description, linked from the table of contents, and the
> article itself is not on-line.]
>
>   In Japan, a "yellow cab" is not a taxi. Instead, "yellow cab" is a
> pejorative label for young Japanese women who pursue short-term erotic
> adventures abroad with foreign (especially African-American) men, because
> they are allegedly "yellow" and "as easy to hail as a taxi." Japanese men
> condemn these women, who themselves claim that the deficiencies of men in
> Japan encourage them to search elsewhere.
>
> Anthropologist Karen Kelsky discusses the yellow cab phenomenon in her
> essay "Intimate Ideologies: Transnational Theory and Japan's 'Yellow Cabs'."
>
>
> Joel
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From hwgray at GMAIL.COM  Tue Jun 14 03:23:57 2005
From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:23:57 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <42addb16.06eb5cb4.21f8.14d1SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I don't know that I really have ahold of this discussion, but it
really has a hold on me.

It's something like "loose" v. "aloose":

The ship's mooring is loose.

The ship broke aloose from its mooring.

-Wilson Gray

On 6/13/05, FRITZ JUENGLING  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING 
> Subject:      Re: ahold
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 11:30AM >>>
> On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:18 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
>
>
> > I guess 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.  It just
> > seems odd to me, as each set is made up of two clearly separate
> > words for me.
>
> well, different people have somewhat different grammmars.  the
> question is when we should be trying to regulate uniformity, even if
> just in formal standard written language.  a lot of the time, it
> seems to me, we should just recognize variability, and get on with life.
>
> I am not trying to regulate, just wanting to know what people are thinking.
>
> > On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl,
>
> this worries me a bit.  talking about Sprachgefuehl suggests that
> there is a language, English, out there, and individual people differ
> as to how good a "feel" they have for it.  that's not what you say
> below, but the word raises a flag for me.
>
> I don't think it should raise a red flag.  Perhaps we have different understandings of the word 'Sprachgef?hl.'  Yes, I know that the English translation is 'feeling for language,' but that definition is inadequate.  That's why I use the German word.
>
> > the other day in several of my classes, we were discussing the use
> > of tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of "Did you get
> > the mail yet?"   I asked the classes whether this sentence bothers
> > them.  Usually, I get about a third to half who are bothered by
> > it.  One girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't see
> > how it could be a problem in any way and did not understand the
> > conflict that this sentence creates in my head.
>
> the use of the simple past form for perfect semantics is an extremely
> widespread americanism, used naturally by a great many educated
> people who are skillful writers.  me, for instance.  i would be
> extremely hesitant to call it nonstandard.
>
> Yes, I know it's widespread in the US and I do not consider it nonstandard or wrong, just different.  The 'yet' makes the preterite impossible for me in that sentence.
>
> we all cope with differences in all sorts of features of grammar and
> lexicon.  why not accommodate here?
>
> I do.
>
> up to this point, you seem to be saying that your student should
> learn to accommodate to you, presumably by abandoning the usage that
> you have trouble with.  your student could equally well insist that
> you should accommodate to her, by becoming aware of her tense usage,
> even if you don't use it yourself.
>
> No, if I came across that way, it was unintentional.  I am not, nor did I in class, suggest(ing) that anyone give up any usage or accomodate to anyone else's speech.
> I don't think she even thought I was telling her to change; she just didn't understand how it could be a problem for anyone.
>
> >   I pointed out that this is an example of different Sprachgef?hle
> > that we have.
>
> now *this* is formulated neutrally, essentially in terms of grammar
> differences.  but what lesson were you trying to teach?
>
> The lesson was really about German verb tenses--although the forms are the same as those in English, the uses are not exactly the same.  The English examples were to point out that different dialects of English--and speakers from the same dialect (if that's possible, now that we have pointed out a difference)--might have different usages.
>
> Fritz
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

--
-Wilson Gray

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 05:51:16 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:51:16 -0500
Subject: cop a sunny
Message-ID: 

>From a documentary on Sam Peckinpah on the cable tonight, Ben Johnson speaking:

"Sam was always wanting to get into a fight, always wanting to cop a sunny on someone."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 14 08:41:23 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:41:23 -0400
Subject: cop a sunny
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:51:16 -0500, Mullins, Bill
 wrote:

>>From a documentary on Sam Peckinpah on the cable tonight, Ben Johnson
>speaking:
>
>"Sam was always wanting to get into a fight, always wanting to cop a
>sunny on someone."

I take it this is simply a regional variation of "cop a Sunday" (HDAS: "to
deliver a punch or blow, esp. without warning").

Earliest cite in HDAS for "cop a Sunday" is from 1935, but here are a few
antedatings:

-----
1926 _L.A. Times_ 26 Sep. A7/7 It is likely that Buddy will be out for the
rest of the season, for, according to Angel players, the Solon skipper
copped a "Sunday" on Van Grafian while the arbiter had his back turned.
-----
1927 _Oakland Tribune_ 20 Jan. 15/2 Perhaps Mr. Wills does not hit very
hard, but we know one Scot who is not going to let Young Harry cop a
Sunday on him.
-----
1927 _Oakland Tribune_ 24 Feb. 15/6 They could not glimpse the crafty Mr.
Dempsey taking a chance with a crude third or fourth rater who might
forget the ethics of the game and attempt to cop a Sunday.
-----
1927 _Oakland Tribune_ 12 May 31/8 Eddie had a cute little trick of trying
to cop a Sunday on his opponent as he arose at the count of nine and twice
he landed long, winging right hands to the chin.
-----

HDAS says the expression is suggested by "Sunday punch".  I guess there's
a bit of semantic drift there, since a "Sunday punch" is a boxer's *best*
punch, his knockout blow, rather than a sneaky sucker punch.

OED has a first cite of 1929 for "Sunday punch" from Damon Runyon, but
Runyon was using it back in 1915:

-----
1915 D. RUNYON in _Washington Post_ 23 May (Sporting Section) 3/3 I boxed
'im one night, and I hit 'im 'ith my Sunday punch right in the puss, and
it didden do no good.
-----

(What's the origin of "Sunday punch" anyway?  Is it related to the concept
of punching someone into next Sunday?  Or is it a boxer's "Sunday best"?)

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 11:00:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:00:31 -0700
Subject: "diva": extended to men
Message-ID: 

On _Fox & Friends_ this a.m., Kirin Chetry asked country singer Aaron Tippin's accompanist,

"Is he a diva behind the scenes?"

JL

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 11:02:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:02:56 -0700
Subject: cop a sunny
Message-ID: 

That should be "cop a Sunday on," hit him with a sneaky "Sunday punch."

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: cop a sunny
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From a documentary on Sam Peckinpah on the cable tonight, Ben Johnson =
speaking:
=20
"Sam was always wanting to get into a fight, always wanting to cop a =
sunny on someone."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 14 12:04:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:04:05 EDT
Subject: "Chicken Riggies" from Boca Raton, Florida? (1994)
Message-ID: 

On second look, Google Groups has "Chicken Riggies" from Boca Raton,
Florida. Back to you, Utica, NY.
...
...
...

    Jan Penovich Feb 1 1994,  9:38 am     _show options_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/browse_thread/thread/684892fc4d6a137a/c5bdcd0
1920e9bee?q=riggies&rnum=52&hl=en#)
    Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking  From: jpeno... at encore.com (Jan Penovich) -
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 20:47:04 GMT  Local: Mon,Jan  31 1994 3:47 pm
Subject: RE: CHICKEN RIGATONIES

In article  <1994Jan27.183716.5... at news.rlcn.rl.af.mil>,
kar... at lonexa.admin.rl.af.mil (Andy Karam) writes:
> Does anyone have a recipe for chicken riggies, chicken fry-diablo,  or
> vodka riggies? I have tried these  dishes at Marios Resturant in Boca
> Raton. They were excellent. I cant  seem to find 'decent' recipes
> anywhere.

If you  can't find the recipes, send a letter to the people
at the Food  section (it comes out on Thursdays) of the Ft.
Lauderdale  Sun-Sentinel.  They have a question and answer
column in which  the writer gets many recipes from local
restaurants.
********************************************************************

TTFN,                  *    jpeno... at encore.com
jan penovich
*    Encore Computer Corp.
********************************************************************
*

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 14 12:59:40 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:59:40 EDT
Subject: Rigatoni (1894)
Message-ID: 

"Chicken Rigatonies" in my last post, from 1994 usenet, can probably be  
expected. Rigatoni, though, is plural.
...
...
...
(OED)
rigatoni, n. pl.
[It., f. rigato pa. pple. of rigare to draw a line, to make  fluting.]  
Short hollow tubes of pasta in fluted  form; a dish of this pasta. 

1930 H. BURKE Cookery Bk.  100 ?Rigattoni? is the Italian name for a special 
kind of  macaroni which comes in short thick  tubes. 
... 
... 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 
... 
_TON  OF MACARONI A DAY.; 500 Miles of Italian Food Made in the Hub. 
Description of  the Manner in Which This Cereal Product is Made. Three Faotories Turn 
It Out and  the Real Article is Divided Into 13 Classes. _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=571225242&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD
&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1118753269&clientId=65882) 
Boston  Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 16, 1894. p. 31 (1 page): 
To begin with, macaroni is divided into 13 classes. Each of these is the  
product of the same batch of flour and the same kneading, but vary in size,  
shape and general appearance. Among Italian gourmets they are known as Menzani,  
Forati, Frenetti, Trenetini, Foralini, spaghetti, spaghettin, rigatoni, seme di 
 melloni, rosa marina, stellini, tubetini and acine di fippi. 
... 
These are all contained in the generic term  "macaroni."

From Berson at ATT.NET  Tue Jun 14 13:09:32 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:09:32 -0400
Subject: computer "shot down"
Message-ID: 

Although this may be from someone for whom English is not his native
language, I was struck by the image it evokes.  From a bulletin board for
Restrospect, a computer data backup package.

>Subject: controling the automatic shot down on 6.5
>Poster : [deleted for privacy]
>Date   : 06/09/05 08:50 AM
>
>Hello,
>
>I am using retrospect 6.5 for windows and my script includes the option
>for the computer to shot down after backup completion.
>
>sometimes I am in the middle of work when the backup run in the background
>and if I am too busy and do not notice the computer shots down leaving me
>sometimes with unsaved work.
>
>is there an option somewhere in the prefrences to tell RP to ignore the
>shot down if someone is working (mouse movment, keyboard...)
>
>thanks

And it is not murder, but suicide due to extreme depression:

>Subject: Re: controling the automatic shot down on 6.5
>Poster : [deleted for privacy]
>Date   : 06/13/05 03:03 AM
>
>what does the "energy saver" has to do with RP shoting it self down after
>backup?

From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 13:13:51 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:13:51 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I and those around me have used "ahold" as long as I
can remember, more often spoken than written, but when
written it has been one word rather than two.

e.g., "Get ahold of Broderick over at the shop and see
how that order's coming."

--- FRITZ JUENGLING
 wrote:

> How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?
> Fritz J
>
> >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/10/05 07:42PM >>>
> You learn something every day...
>
> The New Yorker, famously careful about both facts
> and usage, printed
> the following, in Elizabeth Kolbert's Letter from
> Alaska: "Last
> words: A language dies" (about Eyak), 6 June 2005,
> p. 59:
>
> -----
> The project was largely the work of a former TV
> reporter from
> Anchorage named Laura Bliss Spaan.  She first heard
> about the Eyak in
> 1992, when she was sent to Cordova to cover the Ice
> Worm Festival.
> "When Eyak gets ahold of you, it's really hard to
> escape," she
> explained to me.
> -----
>
> The "ahold" caught my eye.
>
> The OED treats the relevant idiom as "get (a) hold
> of", though it has
> some cites for the spellings "a-hold" and "ahold".
> MWDEU notes that
> verbs other than "get" are possible ("catch" and
> "take", for
> instance) and that when the preposition following
> "hold" is anything
> other than "of", the "a" is required:
>    get a hold over / *get hold over
>    catch a hold on/*catch hold on
> (my examples), but that "V hold of" does not have
> "a", "in the idiom
> of the majority of English speakers and writers from
> Shakespeare to
> the present" (p. 59).  "Since the late 19th century,
> the minority
> idiom with "a" seems to have been gaining in
> respectability, but it
> is still primarily a spoken rather than a written
> form."
>
> The version with "a" doesn't sound at all
> colloquial/nonstandard/etc.
> to *me*, and when "hold" is modified the "a" is
> required:
>    get a firm/quick/tenuous/... hold of
>   *get firm/quick/tenuous/... hold of
>
> In any case, what really caught my eye was the
> *spelling*: "ahold"
> rather than "a hold".  Since the "a" here seems
> pretty clearly to be
> the indefinite article, the spelling "ahold" strikes
> me as similar to
> the spelling "alot" for "a lot".  Consequently, my
> first reading of
> the quote from Spaan was that Kolbert was using eye
> dialect --
> representing Spaan as the sort of person who would
> spell "a hold of"
> as "ahold of".  In the context, that seemed
> gratuitous.
>
> Then I thought that maybe this was one (presumably
> from Kolbert
> herself) that just got past the copy editors.
>
> But then I checked out MWDEU and discovered piles of
> examples of
> "ahold" from quoted speech.  In fact, MWDEU
> maintains: "When
> transcribed from speech, [the idiom] is generally
> styled as one word,
> _ahold_."
>
> Well, I didn't know that.  It still looks odd to me.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
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From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 13:31:47 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:31:47 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I was actually taught "supercede" back in the day, and
had to be reeducated to the "correct" spelling.  I
have spoken and read "idiosyncrasy", but I believe
this is the first time in my life I have written the
word, and save for having the spelling brought to my
attention there is at least a 50% probability I would
have used a non-standard spelling.

--- "Arnold M. Zwicky" 
wrote:

> On Jun 13, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John Baker asks:
>
> > ... What are your views on supercede and alright?
>
> i generally correct "supercede" and "idiosyncracy",
> but i'm not
> entirely sure this is a good use of my time and
> other people's.
> especially since these two occur in the writing of
> highly educated
> careful writers, including some linguists, and they
> aren't slips of
> the pen.
>
> on "alright", see MWDEU again.  i've totally given
> up on this one,
> though i myself write "all right".  it's just one of
> my little quirks.
>
> the situation with "alright" has gone so far that a
> great many people
> perceive the spelling "all right" as the innovation
> -- and an
> ignorant one at that.  several people have written
> me with the
> suggestion that "all right" is in fact an eggcorn, a
> mistaken
> reanalysis of the unitary "alright"!  and they can
> explain why
> "alright" is phonologically, syntactically, and
> semantically a unit,
> so should not be written as two words.  on the
> semantic side, they
> point out that absolutely none of their uses of
> "alright" can be
> paraphrased as "completely correct".  some even
> observe that they do
> have the expression "all right" in sentences like
> "Your answers are
> all right" 'All of your answers are right', but that
> this is
> phonologically, syntactically, and semantically
> distinct from their
> "alright"; note "Your answers are all, every one of
> them, right".
> this is excellent reasoning, and at this point i'm
> not willing to
> maintain that all these sensitive observations are
> irrelevant and
> that the correct spelling is "all right", just
> because.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
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From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 13:34:00 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:34:00 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I am an 'alot' speller and yes for me, it seems like
one word. I have to constantly remind myself that it's
two. I can't really give you any more insight than
that.

Ed

--- FRITZ JUENGLING
 wrote:

> I've seen 'awhile' a zillion times and 'alot' 8
> zillion times.  My question is 'what's going on in
> the heads of people who write this?" I do not mean
> this this in a derogatory way-I am really curious to
> know what they are thinking--is 'awhile' one word
> for them; does it mean 'period or time'?  I guess
> 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.
> It just seems odd to me, as each set is made up of
> two clearly separate words for me.
>
> On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl, the other day in
> several of my classes, we were discussing the use of
> tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of
> "Did you get the mail yet?"   I asked the classes
> whether this sentence bothers them.  Usually, I get
> about a third to half who are bothered by it.  One
> girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't
> see how it could be a problem in any way and did not
> understand the conflict that this sentence creates
> in my head.  I pointed out that this is an example
> of different Sprachgef?hle that we have.
>
> Fritz J
>
> >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 09:18AM >>>
> On Jun 13, 2005, at 8:49 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING asks
> me:
>
> > How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?
>
> as MWDEU points out, the spelling "awhile" for the
> object of a
> preposition has been very widely deplored, but it is
> nevertheless
> very frequent.
>
> this is entirely a matter of spelling, and in
> matters of spelling my
> own practice is pretty conservative; english
> spelling is full of
> arbitrariness, so spelling is one place where i
> think a fairly high
> degree of uniformity is desirable.  i myself would
> write "for a
> while", especially since "while" here is modifiable,
> as in "for a
> (very) long while", in which case the article "a"
> must be separated
> from "while". (similar reasoning applies to "alot"
> and, as i pointed
> out in my first posting, "ahold".)
>
> but i recognize that widespread nonstandard
> spellings always have a
> good motivation and are not evidences of ignorance,
> illiteracy, or
> anything of the sort, so i don't froth at the mouth,
> despair that
> civilization is coming to an end, or peg the writers
> who use them as
> inferior beings.
>
> i notice "for awhile", but i understand that that's
> mostly just me.
> i don't alter it in my students' writing.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

__________________________________
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From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 13:36:05 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:36:05 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296C2E@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

Anyway, the word is "awright".

--- "Baker, John"  wrote:

> ...  While
> the same argument does not apply to "alright," I
> believe it is out of place in formal writing.

>
> John Baker

James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
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From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Tue Jun 14 13:51:09 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:51:09 -0400
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

 James Smith wrote:

>Subject:      Re: ahold
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Anyway, the word is "awright".

And isn't it 'aholt'?

Michael McKernan

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 14 13:54:32 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:54:32 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <20050614133400.39599.qmail@web33113.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

No sweat; we haven't really had any good insights
into what a "word" is for years.

dInIs

>I am an 'alot' speller and yes for me, it seems like
>one word. I have to constantly remind myself that it's
>two. I can't really give you any more insight than
>that.
>
>Ed
>
>--- FRITZ JUENGLING
> wrote:
>
>>  I've seen 'awhile' a zillion times and 'alot' 8
>>  zillion times.  My question is 'what's going on in
>>  the heads of people who write this?" I do not mean
>>  this this in a derogatory way-I am really curious to
>>  know what they are thinking--is 'awhile' one word
>>  for them; does it mean 'period or time'?  I guess
>>  'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.
>>  It just seems odd to me, as each set is made up of
>>  two clearly separate words for me.
>>
>>  On a similar note of Sprachgef?hl, the other day in
>>  several of my classes, we were discussing the use of
>>  tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of
>>  "Did you get the mail yet?"   I asked the classes
>>  whether this sentence bothers them.  Usually, I get
>>  about a third to half who are bothered by it.  One
>>  girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't
>>  see how it could be a problem in any way and did not
>>  understand the conflict that this sentence creates
>>  in my head.  I pointed out that this is an example
>>  of different Sprachgef?hle that we have.
>>
>>  Fritz J
>>
>>  >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 09:18AM >>>
>>  On Jun 13, 2005, at 8:49 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING asks
>>  me:
>>
>>  > How 'bout  "for awhile"? Does that bother you?
>>
>>  as MWDEU points out, the spelling "awhile" for the
>>  object of a
>>  preposition has been very widely deplored, but it is
>>  nevertheless
>>  very frequent.
>>
>>  this is entirely a matter of spelling, and in
>>  matters of spelling my
>>  own practice is pretty conservative; english
>>  spelling is full of
>>  arbitrariness, so spelling is one place where i
>>  think a fairly high
>>  degree of uniformity is desirable.  i myself would
>>  write "for a
>>  while", especially since "while" here is modifiable,
>>  as in "for a
>>  (very) long while", in which case the article "a"
>>  must be separated
>>  from "while". (similar reasoning applies to "alot"
>>  and, as i pointed
>>  out in my first posting, "ahold".)
>>
>>  but i recognize that widespread nonstandard
>>  spellings always have a
>>  good motivation and are not evidences of ignorance,
>>  illiteracy, or
>>  anything of the sort, so i don't froth at the mouth,
>>  despair that
>>  civilization is coming to an end, or peg the writers
>>  who use them as
>>  inferior beings.
>>
>>  i notice "for awhile", but i understand that that's
>>  mostly just me.
>>  i don't alter it in my students' writing.
>>
>>  arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Discover Yahoo!
>Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!
>http://discover.yahoo.com/

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 14 13:55:37 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:55:37 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

L-vocalizers! Final consonant devoicers! Where will it all end?

dInIs

>  James Smith wrote:
>
>>Subject:      Re: ahold
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Anyway, the word is "awright".
>
>And isn't it 'aholt'?
>
>Michael McKernan

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 14:00:22 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:00:22 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I thought "all right" was pronounced [aiy at i?] or
something close to that.

--- "Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:

> L-vocalizers! Final consonant devoicers! Where will
> it all end?
>
> dInIs
>
> >  James Smith wrote:
> >
> >>Subject:      Re: ahold
>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>Anyway, the word is "awright".
> >
> >And isn't it 'aholt'?
> >
> >Michael McKernan
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
> Asian, and African Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu
>

__________________________________________________
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From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 14 14:04:21 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:04:21 -0400
Subject: Rigatoni (1894)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Italian i-plurals (perhaps particularly those which (ooops! that)
refer to foodstuffs) are regularly pluralized in English. When they
can be taken as noncount (e.g., spaghetti), however, they are not,
although, most peculiarly, in Italian-heritage families, these
reanalyzed noncounts are often English pluralized - spaghettis,
macaronis, etc...., not referring to kinds but in such constructions
as "We're having spaghettis tonight." Am Italian-American once
explained this to me as a result of "Well, they're plural, you know."

dInIs

>"Chicken Rigatonies" in my last post, from 1994 usenet, can probably be
>expected. Rigatoni, though, is plural.
>...
>...
>...
>(OED)
>rigatoni, n. pl.
>[It., f. rigato pa. pple. of rigare to draw a line, to make  fluting.]
>Short hollow tubes of pasta in fluted  form; a dish of this pasta.
>
>1930 H. BURKE Cookery Bk.  100 'Rigattoni' is the Italian name for a special
>kind of  macaroni which comes in short thick  tubes.
>...
>...
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>...
>_TON  OF MACARONI A DAY.; 500 Miles of Italian Food Made in the Hub.
>Description of  the Manner in Which This Cereal Product is Made.
>Three Faotories Turn
>It Out and  the Real Article is Divided Into 13 Classes. _
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=571225242&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD
>&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1118753269&clientId=65882)
>Boston  Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 16, 1894. p. 31 (1 page):
>To begin with, macaroni is divided into 13 classes. Each of these is the
>product of the same batch of flour and the same kneading, but vary in size,
>shape and general appearance. Among Italian gourmets they are known
>as Menzani,
>Forati, Frenetti, Trenetini, Foralini, spaghetti, spaghettin,
>rigatoni, seme di
>  melloni, rosa marina, stellini, tubetini and acine di fippi.
>...
>These are all contained in the generic term  "macaroni."

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 14:16:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:16:39 -0400
Subject: TV talk
Message-ID: 

Heard on The Maury Show:

"I paid for him a house and I paid for him a car!"

Heard on the Today Show:

"This is an antiroom [aentai ruwm] and not the tomb itself, right?"

-Wilson Gray

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 14:30:13 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:30:13 -0400
Subject: "diva": extended to men
In-Reply-To: <20050614110031.8852.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 4:00 AM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>On _Fox & Friends_ this a.m., Kirin Chetry asked country singer
>Aaron Tippin's accompanist,
>
>"Is he a diva behind the scenes?"
>
Not too surprising, given how long "prima donna" has been.  Of
course, the locus classicus for *that* is the reference to "the
pre-Madonna Jose Canseco"...

L

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 14:46:19 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:46:19 -0400
Subject: aw-right
In-Reply-To: <20050614133605.88876.qmail@web50610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>Anyway, the word is "awright".
>

and only when it *is* a word.  So,

"The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no prob')
"The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are wrong')

Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular "alright"
spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:

"The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. = "awready"]
"The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]

Larry

>--- "Baker, John"  wrote:
>
>>  ...  While
>>  the same argument does not apply to "alright," I
>>  believe it is out of place in formal writing.
>
>>
>>  John Baker
>
>
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Discover Yahoo!
>Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
>http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 14:52:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:52:43 -0400
Subject: Rigatoni (1894)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:04 AM -0400 6/14/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>Italian i-plurals (perhaps particularly those which (ooops! that)
>refer to foodstuffs) are regularly pluralized in English. When they
>can be taken as noncount (e.g., spaghetti), however, they are not,
>although, most peculiarly, in Italian-heritage families, these
>reanalyzed noncounts are often English pluralized - spaghettis,
>macaronis, etc...., not referring to kinds but in such constructions
>as "We're having spaghettis tonight." Am Italian-American once
>explained this to me as a result of "Well, they're plural, you know."
>
>dInIs
>
>>"Chicken Rigatonies" in my last post, from 1994 usenet, can probably be
>>expected. Rigatoni, though, is plural.
>>...
And I'll believe "rigatoni" is a plural count noun _in English_ when
I hear someone say "Oops, I dropped a rigatono".  (Well, actually,
that's the kind of thing I'd say, but that doesn't count.)

Larry

From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 15:26:39 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:26:39 -0700
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
and realities of prison life?
by John Bowers.

Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005

There are two words every convict immediately learns
to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
murder.  These two terms are not used in the same way
as they are in the free world.  It can be elementary
school name-calling on a deadly level.

(NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
up from another source.)

James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
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From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun 14 15:37:21 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:37:21 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: <20050614152640.56382.qmail@web50608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

 From the same article:

"An officer 'hits the deuces'--button on his hand-held radio--which
summons a hundred guards like ants to a picnic."

http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2005/feat_2005-04-28.cfm

Any ideas? Is the guard merely keying channel 2 on his radio? Calling
a "code 2"?

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:26, James Smith wrote:

> ?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
> and realities of prison life?
> by John Bowers.
>
> Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>
> There are two words every convict immediately learns
> to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
> However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
> of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
> your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
> and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
> murder.  These two terms are not used in the same way
> as they are in the free world.  It can be elementary
> school name-calling on a deadly level.
>
>
> (NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
> if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
> up from another source.)
>
>
>
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>

From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 15:54:06 2005
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:54:06 -0400
Subject: cop a sunny
Message-ID: 

Quoting Benjamin Zimmer :
[....]
>
> HDAS says the expression is suggested by "Sunday punch".  I guess there's
> a bit of semantic drift there, since a "Sunday punch" is a boxer's *best*
> punch, his knockout blow, rather than a sneaky sucker punch.
>
> OED has a first cite of 1929 for "Sunday punch" from Damon Runyon, but
> Runyon was using it back in 1915:
>
> -----
> 1915 D. RUNYON in _Washington Post_ 23 May (Sporting Section) 3/3 I boxed
> 'im one night, and I hit 'im 'ith my Sunday punch right in the puss, and
> it didden do no good.
> -----
>
> (What's the origin of "Sunday punch" anyway?  Is it related to the concept
> of punching someone into next Sunday?  Or is it a boxer's "Sunday best"?)
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

I don't know the origin of "Sunday Punch,", but given the association with a
KO, might it allude to doing no more work (boxing) on a Sunday? I see Edwin
Newman wrote a book with this title (1979); perhaps he offers something.

Stephen Goranson

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 15:59:47 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:59:47 -0500
Subject: cop a sunny
Message-ID: 

Johnson may have said "cop a Sunday", but I'm pretty sure it was "cop a
sunny", and that is also what the closed captioner transcribed.  Johnson
was a cowboy from Oklahoma before he got into the movies, so if it is a
regional variation, that would be where to look for it, I suppose.

>
> >From a documentary on Sam Peckinpah on the cable tonight, Ben Johnson
> >speaking:
> >
> >"Sam was always wanting to get into a fight, always wanting to cop a
> >sunny on someone."
>
> I take it this is simply a regional variation of "cop a
> Sunday" (HDAS: "to deliver a punch or blow, esp. without warning").
>
>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 16:01:24 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:01:24 -0500
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

>
> I thought "all right" was pronounced [aiy at i?] or something
> close to that.
>

I've seen the hip-hop (or maybe Black English??) spelled a'ight, and
pronounced that way, with emphasis on the second syllable.

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 16:09:30 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:09:30 -0700
Subject: aw-right
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>
>> Anyway, the word is "awright".
>
> and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>
> "The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
> prob')
> "The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
> wrong')
>
> Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular "alright"
> spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>
> "The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. = "awready"]
> "The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]

just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers --
people like larry and me.

a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of "trepidatious"
on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
   I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.

(i've chosen not to respond.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 14 16:18:33 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:18:33 -0400
Subject: aw-right
In-Reply-To: <53B98A2B-BB4A-4493-9356-4A55B6C867EE@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

arnold,

Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general l-vocalizers
like me (i.e., those who distinguish barbeque from grilling).

dInIs

>On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Anyway, the word is "awright".
>>
>>and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>>
>>"The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
>>prob')
>>"The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
>>wrong')
>>
>>Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular "alright"
>>spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>>
>>"The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. = "awready"]
>>"The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]
>
>just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
>occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers --
>people like larry and me.
>
>a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
>message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of "trepidatious"
>on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
>   I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.
>
>(i've chosen not to respond.)
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 16:25:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:25:44 -0500
Subject: aw-right
Message-ID: 

>
> Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?
>
It is but one of them.

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Tue Jun 14 16:22:24 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:22:24 +0100
Subject: aw-right
In-Reply-To: <200506141618.j5EGIYSn013799@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 14/6/05 5:18 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: aw-right
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> arnold,
>
> Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general l-vocalizers
> like me (i.e., those who distinguish barbeque from grilling).
>
> dInIs
>

Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?

>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>
>>> At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, the word is "awright".
>>>
>>> and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>>>
>>> "The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
>>> prob')
>>> "The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
>>> wrong')
>>>
>>> Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular "alright"
>>> spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>>>
>>> "The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. = "awready"]
>>> "The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]
>>
>> just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
>> occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers --
>> people like larry and me.
>>
>> a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
>> message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of "trepidatious"
>> on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
>> I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.
>>
>> (i've chosen not to respond.)
>>
>> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 14 16:32:15 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:32:15 -0400
Subject: spell Bar-B-Q
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Along with numerous others, yes. Is there any need for the spelling
in Britain (except to refer to the American foodstuffs?).

dInIs

>on 14/6/05 5:18 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>>  Subject:      Re: aw-right
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--> -
>>
>>  arnold,
>>
>>  Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general l-vocalizers
>>  like me (i.e., those who distinguish barbeque from grilling).
>>
>>  dInIs
>>
>
>Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?
>
>>>  On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>>
>>>>  At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Anyway, the word is "awright".
>>>>
>>>>  and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>>>>
>>>>  "The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
>>>>  prob')
>>>>  "The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
>>>>  wrong')
>>>>
>>>>  Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular "alright"
>>>>  spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>>>>
>>>>  "The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. = "awready"]
>>>>  "The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]
>>>
>>>  just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
>>>  occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers --
>>>  people like larry and me.
>>>
>>>  a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
>>>  message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of "trepidatious"
>>>  on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
>>>  I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.
>>>
>>>  (i've chosen not to respond.)
>>>
>>>  arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>  University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>>  A-740 Wells Hall
>>  Michigan State University
>>  East Lansing, MI 48824
>>  Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>  preston at msu.edu

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Tue Jun 14 16:53:38 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:53:38 -0700
Subject: aw-right
In-Reply-To: <200506141222.1dIebB1p63Nl3490@mx-nebolish.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

I've often wondered why the AHD (even the fourth edition) doesn' t recognize
barbeque. I don't pay too close attention, but I don't think "barbecue" is
very current, at least in Seattle.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of neil

> Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:05:52 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:05:52 -0700
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy
In-Reply-To: <20050614133147.87664.qmail@web50610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:31 AM, James Smith wrote:

> I was actually taught "supercede" back in the day, and
> had to be reeducated to the "correct" spelling.  I
> have spoken and read "idiosyncrasy", but I believe
> this is the first time in my life I have written the
> word, and save for having the spelling brought to my
> attention there is at least a 50% probability I would
> have used a non-standard spelling.

this provides the beginning of an answer to John Baker's: " It seems
to me that anyone who is going to use a $2 word like supersede or
idiosyncrasy should take the trouble to learn how to spell it."

the thing is, in my experience the people using "supersede" and
"idiosyncrasy" are just using words familiar to them in academic (or
other technical) talk; they aren't reaching for fancy words.  so it
doesn't occur to them to look the words up.  "supersede" *sounds*
like it belongs with
   precede recede concede accede secede intercede
     (also succeed proceed)
and "idiosyncrasy", with related "idiosyncratic", sounds like it
belongs with all those "-cracy" words with "-cratic" relatives:
   democracy theocracy aristocracy autocracy...
hence the spellings "supercede" and "idiosyncracy".  then, since a
fair number of these spellings will occur in print, they are reinforced.

now, of course, the implied etymologies for "supersede" (as super
+cede) and "idiosyncrasy" (as idio+syn+crac+y) are just wrong.  but
it is way too much to expect that people, even very educated people,
should know the etymologies of the words they hear. (and even if they
do, this knowledge isn't always a reliable guide to spelling.)

the advice to look up words whose spelling you're unsure of is not
very helpful in general, since first you have to *be* unsure, and if
you try to play safe by looking up every infrequent or technical
word, you'll be paralyzed (even if you can figure out *how* to look
up the words; if you think it's "supercede" you'll have something of
a task to find "supersede").

eventually, someone -- someone like me -- will set you straight, and
then you'll at least remember that these words are problematic.  or
you can use a spellchecker, though if your misspellings are
infrequent the spellchecker is likely to be a big nuisance.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:10:46 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:10:46 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:51 AM, Michael McKernan wrote:

>  James Smith wrote:
>
>> Subject:      Re: ahold
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>> Anyway, the word is "awright".
>
> And isn't it 'aholt'?

in some parts of the country, for some speakers, yes.

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:13:05 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:13:05 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> L-vocalizers! Final consonant devoicers! Where will it all end?

either in fire or in ice, depending on who you listen to.

stay alert for the hoofbeats of the Four Horsemen.

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:22:40 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:22:40 -0700
Subject: supercede
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 13, 2005, at 11:21 AM, dInIs wrote:

> arnold,
>
> There is at least one more reason (other than saving your valuable
> time) why you should stop messing with 'supercede,' as MW tells us:
>
>  Etymology: Middle English superceden
>
> Course, Latin and French have the 's.'
>
> dInIs
>
> PS: This would also please the 'things oughta be like they uster'
> crowd.

but there's no pleasing them folks.  my campaign to restore /t/
(rather than theta) in words like "author" and "theatre" has gotten
nowhere.  i produce middle english, french, and latin, and these guys
just drive it back to greek.

for supercede/supersede, latin trumps middle english.

a lot depends on what you mean by "uster".

arnold

From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:24:46 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:24:46 -0400
Subject: supercede
In-Reply-To: <34EDB485-520B-4629-843F-BA81F1C50FAF@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
> On Jun 13, 2005, at 11:21 AM, dInIs wrote:
>
>> arnold,
>>
>> There is at least one more reason (other than saving your valuable
>> time) why you should stop messing with 'supercede,' as MW tells us:
>>
>>  Etymology: Middle English superceden
>>
>> Course, Latin and French have the 's.'
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>> PS: This would also please the 'things oughta be like they uster'
>> crowd.
>
>
> but there's no pleasing them folks.  my campaign to restore /t/
> (rather than theta) in words like "author" and "theatre" has gotten
> nowhere.  i produce middle english, french, and latin, and these guys
> just drive it back to greek.
>
> for supercede/supersede, latin trumps middle english.
>
> a lot depends on what you mean by "uster".

Isn't that a county in Ire'and?

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                    faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                        fax (203) 865-8963

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:38:52 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:38:52 -0400
Subject: On the dangers of crying wol(o)f
Message-ID: 

Note the subject line below.  This relates to Wilson's earlier
forwarding--I've read about this proposal in the Times, and between
that coverage and the message below, I don't *think* that this is
just another recirculation of the same old spam.  (True, a House vote
to cut off NPR/PBS doesn't mean the Senate will go along, but it is
probably a real danger this time, especially given other
Congressional and Administration assessments on what our nation can
afford and what we can't.)

Larry

--- begin forwarded text

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:34:03 -0700
From: "Noah T. Winer, MoveOn.org" 
To: "Larry Horn" 
Subject: This time, it's for real: Save NPR and PBS

A House panel has voted to eliminate all public funding for NPR and
PBS, starting with "Sesame Street." This would be the most severe cut
in the history of public broadcasting. NPR and PBS are under attack,
but Americans trust them over the commercial networks. Sign the
petition to save NPR, PBS and our local public stations from losing
their funding.

<>
Dear MoveOn member,

You know that email petition that keeps circulating about how
Congress is slashing funding for NPR and PBS? Well, now it's actually
true. (Really. Check the footnotes if you don't believe us.)

A House panel has voted to eliminate all public funding for NPR and
PBS, starting with "Sesame Street," "Reading Rainbow," and other
commercial-free children's shows. If approved, this would be the most
severe cut in the history of public broadcasting, threatening to pull
the plug on Big Bird, Cookie Monster and Oscar the Grouch.

Sign the petition telling Congress to save NPR and PBS:

<>http://www.moveon.org/publicbroadcasting/?id=5663-191543-4dzKy_puPpx2CZzhUmX1BQ&t=3

If we can reach 250,000 signatures by the end of the week, we'll put
Congress on notice. After you sign the petition, please pass this
message along to any friends, neighbors or co-workers who count on
NPR and PBS.

The cuts would slash 25% of the federal funding this year-$100
million-and end funding altogether within two years.1 In particular,
the loss could kill beloved children's shows like "Sesame Street,"
"Clifford the Big Red Dog," "Arthur" and "Postcards from Buster."
Rural stations and those serving low-income communities might not
survive. Other stations would have to increase corporate sponsorships.

This shameful vote is only the latest partisan assault on public TV
and radio. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which exists to
shield public TV and radio from political pressure, is now chaired by
Kenneth Tomlinson, a staunch Republican close to the White House.
Tomlinson has already forced one-sided conservative programs on the
air, even though Tomlinson's own surveys show that most people
consider NPR "fair and balanced" and they actually trust public
broadcasting more than commercial network news.2

Tomlinson also spent taxpayer dollars on a witch hunt to root out
"liberal bias," including a secret investigation of Bill Moyers and
PBS' popular investigative show, "NOW." Even though the public paid
for the investigation, Tomlinson has refused to release the findings.3

The lawmakers who proposed the cuts aren't just trying to save money
in the budget-they're trying to decimate any news outlets who
question those in power. This is an ideological attack on our free
press.

Talk about bad timing. Every day brings another story about media
consolidation. Radio, TV stations and newspapers are increasingly
controlled by a few massive corporate conglomerates trying to
maximize profits at the expense of quality journalism. Now more than
ever, we need publicly funded media who will ask hard questions and
focus on stories that affect real people, instead of Michael Jackson
and the runaway bride.

As the House and Senate consider this frightening effort to kill
public broadcasting, they need to hear from its owners-you.

<>http://www.moveon.org/publicbroadcasting/?id=5663-191543-4dzKy_puPpx2CZzhUmX1BQ&t=4

Thank you for all you do,

-Noah, Wes, Jennifer, Eli and the MoveOn.org Team
   Tuesday, June 14th, 2005

P.S. You can learn more about the threat to public broadcasting from
our friends at Free Press at:

http://www.moveon.org/r?r=748

Sources:

1. "Public Broadcasting Targeted By House," Washington Post, June 10, 2005
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=745

2. "CPB's 'Secrets and Lies': Why the CPB Board Hid its Polls
Revealing Broad Public Support for PBS and NPR," Center for Digital
Democracy, April 27, 2005
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=746

3. "Republican Chairman Exerts Pressure on PBS, Alleging Biases," New
York Times, May 2, 2005
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0502-01.htm

--- end forwarded text

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:45:21 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:45:21 -0400
Subject: "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson
In-Reply-To: <20050613040007.EEC42B25D2@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Barry wrote:
   >>>>>
"I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson on his future after
being KO'd by Lennox Lewis in 2002
(AOL NEWS)
 <<<<<

Unless we have a clip, how can we tell whether to "credit" this one to Tyson
or to the reporter?

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 17:48:01 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:01 -0500
Subject: On the dangers of crying wol(o)f
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:39 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: On the dangers of crying wol(o)f
At the risk of taking an already off-topic discussion further into the
weeds, why should I be compelled, under threat of law, to pay for
television and radio that I don't necessarily support?  Seems to be a
free speech issue here that is often ignored.

>
> Note the subject line below.  This relates to Wilson's
> earlier forwarding--I've read about this proposal in the
> Times, and between that coverage and the message below, I
> don't *think* that this is just another recirculation of the
> same old spam.  (True, a House vote to cut off NPR/PBS
> doesn't mean the Senate will go along, but it is probably a
> real danger this time, especially given other Congressional
> and Administration assessments on what our nation can afford
> and what we can't.)
>
> Larry
>
>

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:49:30 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:49:30 -0400
Subject: Lapskous (1947) and Lapskous Boulevard (1969)
In-Reply-To: <20050613040007.EEC42B25D2@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Barry cited:
   >>>>>
23 August 1947, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 13:
A Recipe for Lapskaus,
 <<<<<

When I saw that spelling, a relay clicked and I remembered seeing
"lobscouse". I'm supposed to be working right now; somebody with the cycles
free, as they say around here, can go Google it.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 17:53:45 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:53:45 -0500
Subject: spell Bar-B-Q
Message-ID: 

The local (Huntsville, AL) yellow pages has it spelled:
BBQ (2 listings)
Barbeque (1)
Barbecue (4)
Bar-B-Que (2)
Bar-B-Q(1)

>
> Along with numerous others, yes. Is there any need for the
> spelling in Britain (except to refer to the American foodstuffs?).
>
> dInIs
>

> >>  arnold,
> >>
> >>  Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general
> >> l-vocalizers  like me (i.e., those who distinguish
> barbeque from grilling).
> >>
> >>  dInIs
> >>
> >
> >Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?
> >

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 17:54:18 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:54:18 -0400
Subject: aw-right
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 9:53 AM -0700 6/14/05, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>I've often wondered why the AHD (even the fourth edition) doesn' t recognize
>barbeque. I don't pay too close attention, but I don't think "barbecue" is
>very current, at least in Seattle.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>Baking the World a Better Place
>www.hiroki.us
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of neil
>
>  > Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?

I wonder about the relative chronology of the "barbeque" spelling and
the "BBQ" initialism.  (And on a related issue, I wouldn't think
avoidance of homonymy had much to do with the fact that "BBC" is
never used to denote slow-grilled ribs and pulled pork, given how the
referents hang out in such different crowds.)

Larry

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 14 17:58:14 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:58:14 -0400
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:31 AM, James Smith wrote:
>
>> I was actually taught "supercede" back in the day, and
>> had to be reeducated to the "correct" spelling.  I
>> have spoken and read "idiosyncrasy", but I believe
>> this is the first time in my life I have written the
>> word, and save for having the spelling brought to my
>> attention there is at least a 50% probability I would
>> have used a non-standard spelling.
>
>this provides the beginning of an answer to John Baker's: " It seems
>to me that anyone who is going to use a $2 word like supersede or
>idiosyncrasy should take the trouble to learn how to spell it."
>
>the thing is, in my experience the people using "supersede" and
>"idiosyncrasy" are just using words familiar to them in academic (or
>other technical) talk; they aren't reaching for fancy words.  so it
>doesn't occur to them to look the words up.  "supersede" *sounds*
>like it belongs with
>   precede recede concede accede secede intercede
>     (also succeed proceed)
>and "idiosyncrasy", with related "idiosyncratic", sounds like it
>belongs with all those "-cracy" words with "-cratic" relatives:
>   democracy theocracy aristocracy autocracy...
>hence the spellings "supercede" and "idiosyncracy".  then, since a
>fair number of these spellings will occur in print, they are reinforced.
>
>now, of course, the implied etymologies for "supersede" (as super
>+cede) and "idiosyncrasy" (as idio+syn+crac+y) are just wrong.  but
>it is way too much to expect that people, even very educated people,
>should know the etymologies of the words they hear. (and even if they
>do, this knowledge isn't always a reliable guide to spelling.)
>
>the advice to look up words whose spelling you're unsure of is not
>very helpful in general, since first you have to *be* unsure, and if
>you try to play safe by looking up every infrequent or technical
>word, you'll be paralyzed (even if you can figure out *how* to look
>up the words; if you think it's "supercede" you'll have something of
>a task to find "supersede").
>
>eventually, someone -- someone like me -- will set you straight, and
>then you'll at least remember that these words are problematic.  or
>you can use a spellchecker, though if your misspellings are
>infrequent the spellchecker is likely to be a big nuisance.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
~>~>~>~>~>
The New Shorter OED does give "supercede" a listing, simply directing
attention to  "supersede."
A.Murie

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 18:02:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:02:28 -0500
Subject: big ticket item
Message-ID: 

"big ticket item" -- OED has 1970

New York Times; Jul 2, 1943; pg. 34 col 4.
"Sears' Catalogue Features Apparel"
"The new volume is smaller in size than the two preceding editions
because of the omission of many "big ticket" items forced by curtailed
production."

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 18:07:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:07:53 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3i96dr@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Hasn't this been common knowledge for decades? Is there anyone here who
would stroll through a prison yard or through the 'hood randomly
calling people "punk" or "bitch"? In the words of Homey the Clown, "I
don't think so."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:26 AM, James Smith wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       James Smith 
> Subject:      More on "punk"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
> and realities of prison life?
> by John Bowers.
>
> Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>
> There are two words every convict immediately learns
> to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
> However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
> of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
> your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
> and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
> murder.  These two terms are not used in the same way
> as they are in the free world.  It can be elementary
> school name-calling on a deadly level.
>
>
> (NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
> if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
> up from another source.)
>
>
>
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 18:08:26 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:08:26 -0700
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Alison Murie wrote:

> ... The New Shorter OED does give "supercede" a listing, simply
> directing
> attention to  "supersede."

no "supercede" in AHD4, either as a separate entry or as a variant of
"supersede".

i'm away from my Big Pile o' Dictionaries, so i can't say what other
desk dictionaries say.

arnold

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 18:14:42 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:14:42 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3ibqvp@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Main stress can fall on the first syllable, too. It depends, just as in
standard English.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      Re: ahold
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>>
>> I thought "all right" was pronounced [aiy at i?] or something
>> close to that.
>>
>
> I've seen the hip-hop (or maybe Black English??) spelled a'ight, and
> pronounced that way, with emphasis on the second syllable.
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 14 18:16:18 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:16:18 -0400
Subject: Lapskous (1947) and Lapskous Boulevard (1969)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:49:30 -0400, Mark A. Mandel
 wrote:

>Barry cited:
>   >>>>>
>23 August 1947, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 13:
>A Recipe for Lapskaus,
> <<<<<
>
>When I saw that spelling, a relay clicked and I remembered seeing
>"lobscouse". I'm supposed to be working right now; somebody with the
>cycles free, as they say around here, can go Google it.

The sailor's stew "lobscouse" is in the OED from 1706.  Presumably that's
the source for Scandinavian "lapskaus", but some speculate (without
evidence) that "lapskaus" came first:

-----
http://www.cin.org/archives/cinkitch/200009/0002.html
Most English dictionaries, while they do define Lobscouse as a sailor's
stew or hash seem to have no idea whatever as to the word's etymology. "Of
obscure origin," they say, or "origin unknown." I suspect, however, that
the term began as a Nordic dish, as in the Norwegian 'lapskaus'
(hodgepodge), which one Norwegian in Strasbourg explained to me over lunch
one rainy noon meal. The Norwegian dictionary online says that 'lapskaus'
comes from the English "lobscouse", while the Danish dictionary says that
'labskovs' comes from the English "Lobscouse". Nobody seems willing to
accept the blame.
-----

Interestingly, "lobscouse" is the source for "Scouse" = 'native/dialect of
Liverpool".

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 18:17:09 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:17:09 -0500
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

I guess I've heard the stress on the second syllable (nearly always)
when the word is used as a question: [Is that] a'ight?
and on the first (sometimes) when it is a statement [that is] a'ight.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:15 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: ahold
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Wilson Gray 
> Subject:      Re: ahold
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Main stress can fall on the first syllable, too. It depends,
> just as in standard English.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> > Subject:      Re: ahold
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > --------
> >
> >>
> >> I thought "all right" was pronounced [aiy at i?] or something
> close to
> >> that.
> >>
> >
> > I've seen the hip-hop (or maybe Black English??) spelled
> a'ight, and
> > pronounced that way, with emphasis on the second syllable.
> >
>

From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 18:18:27 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:18:27 +0200
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy
In-Reply-To: <20050614180833.5B38C57A5A@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: 

> no "supercede" in AHD4, either as a separate entry or as a variant of
> "supersede".
>
> i'm away from my Big Pile o' Dictionaries, so i can't say what other
> desk dictionaries say.
>
> arnold

You have a Big Pile o' Dictionaries right here: http://www.onelook.com/

The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary says:

Main Entry: supercede
variant of SUPERSEDE

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary, 1997, says:

su.per.cede
Pronunciation: (sOO"pur-sed'), [key]
-v.t., -ced.ed, -ced.ing.
supersede.

Paul
_________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
www.languagejottings.blogspot.com

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 18:27:57 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:27:57 -0400
Subject: spell Bar-B-Q
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$eivng5@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

FWIW, the book title, "Barbecuing With Bobby," fails as a pun, unless
you pronounce it as though it was spelled as "Bobby Cuin' Wit' Bobby."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:32 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: spell Bar-B-Q
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Along with numerous others, yes. Is there any need for the spelling
> in Britain (except to refer to the American foodstuffs?).
>
> dInIs
>
>> on 14/6/05 5:18 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote:
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>>>  Subject:      Re: aw-right
>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>> --> -
>>>
>>>  arnold,
>>>
>>>  Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general
>>> l-vocalizers
>>>  like me (i.e., those who distinguish barbeque from grilling).
>>>
>>>  dInIs
>>>
>>
>> Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?
>>
>>>>  On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Anyway, the word is "awright".
>>>>>
>>>>>  and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>>>>>
>>>>>  "The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
>>>>>  prob')
>>>>>  "The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
>>>>>  wrong')
>>>>>
>>>>>  Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular
>>>>> "alright"
>>>>>  spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>>>>>
>>>>>  "The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. =
>>>>> "awready"]
>>>>>  "The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]
>>>>
>>>>  just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
>>>>  occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers
>>>> --
>>>>  people like larry and me.
>>>>
>>>>  a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
>>>>  message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of
>>>> "trepidatious"
>>>>  on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
>>>>  I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.
>>>>
>>>>  (i've chosen not to respond.)
>>>>
>>>>  arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>>  University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
>>> Languages
>>>  A-740 Wells Hall
>>>  Michigan State University
>>>  East Lansing, MI 48824
>>>  Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>>  preston at msu.edu
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 14 18:36:44 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:36:44 -0400
Subject: aw-right
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:54:18 -0400, Laurence Horn 
wrote:

>I wonder about the relative chronology of the "barbeque" spelling and
>the "BBQ" initialism.  (And on a related issue, I wouldn't think
>avoidance of homonymy had much to do with the fact that "BBC" is
>never used to denote slow-grilled ribs and pulled pork, given how the
>referents hang out in such different crowds.)

Barry Popik has dated "BBQ" to 1938 and "barbeque" to the 1760s (see the
archives).  OED has a draft entry for "BBQ" with Barry's 1938 cite, and
also an entry for "bar-b-q" (first cite 1926), but nothing yet for
"barbeque" as a spelling variant of "barbecue".

--Ben Zimmer

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 18:40:04 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:40:04 -0400
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy
In-Reply-To: <429D78CE0016A380@mail22.bluewin.ch> (added by
 postmaster@bluewin.ch)
Message-ID: 

At 8:18 PM +0200 6/14/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>  > no "supercede" in AHD4, either as a separate entry or as a variant of
>>  "supersede".
>>
>>  i'm away from my Big Pile o' Dictionaries, so i can't say what other
>>  desk dictionaries say.
>>
>>  arnold
>
>You have a Big Pile o' Dictionaries right here: http://www.onelook.com/
>
>The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary says:
>
>Main Entry: supercede
>variant of SUPERSEDE
>
>The Random House Unabridged Dictionary, 1997, says:
>
>su.per.cede
>Pronunciation: (sOO"pur-sed'), [key]
>-v.t., -ced.ed, -ced.ing.
>supersede.
>
And the OED has:

var. (now erron.) of SUPERSEDE

From zimman at SFSU.EDU  Tue Jun 14 18:42:16 2005
From: zimman at SFSU.EDU (Lal Zimman)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:42:16 -0700
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <200506141601.j5EG1IC5017778@mailgw2.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: 

Mullins, Bill wrote:
>>I thought "all right" was pronounced [aiy at i?] or something
>>close to that.
>
> I've seen the hip-hop (or maybe Black English??) spelled a'ight, and
> pronounced that way, with emphasis on the second syllable.

It has definitely expanded out of its BE roots and now many non-black
and non-hip-hop-listening young people use it, even those who normally
don't use a lot of BEisms (such as myself.) I see that spelling of the
word frequently on sites like livejournal.com.

-Lal

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 18:52:41 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:52:41 -0400
Subject: "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3ikt05@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

An excellent point, Mark. Suppose that we write it as ",,, fade int'
oblivion" or as "... fade into 'blivion" or even as "... fade into
oblivion," i.e.  "...int[@ @]blivion."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 14, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Barry wrote:
>>>>>>
> "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson on his future
> after
> being KO'd by Lennox Lewis in 2002
> (AOL NEWS)
>  <<<<<
>
> Unless we have a clip, how can we tell whether to "credit" this one to
> Tyson
> or to the reporter?
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Jun 14 19:03:21 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:03:21 -0700
Subject: spell Bar-B-Q
Message-ID: 

Maybe it was written for Australians?

>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 06/14/05 11:27AM >>>
FWIW, the book title, "Barbecuing With Bobby," fails as a pun, unless
you pronounce it as though it was spelled as "Bobby Cuin' Wit' Bobby."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:32 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: spell Bar-B-Q
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Along with numerous others, yes. Is there any need for the spelling
> in Britain (except to refer to the American foodstuffs?).
>
> dInIs
>
>> on 14/6/05 5:18 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote:
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>>>  Subject:      Re: aw-right
>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>> --> -
>>>
>>>  arnold,
>>>
>>>  Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general
>>> l-vocalizers
>>>  like me (i.e., those who distinguish barbeque from grilling).
>>>
>>>  dInIs
>>>
>>
>> Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?
>>
>>>>  On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Anyway, the word is "awright".
>>>>>
>>>>>  and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>>>>>
>>>>>  "The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
>>>>>  prob')
>>>>>  "The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
>>>>>  wrong')
>>>>>
>>>>>  Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular
>>>>> "alright"
>>>>>  spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>>>>>
>>>>>  "The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. =
>>>>> "awready"]
>>>>>  "The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]
>>>>
>>>>  just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
>>>>  occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers
>>>> --
>>>>  people like larry and me.
>>>>
>>>>  a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
>>>>  message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of
>>>> "trepidatious"
>>>>  on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
>>>>  I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.
>>>>
>>>>  (i've chosen not to respond.)
>>>>
>>>>  arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>>  University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
>>> Languages
>>>  A-740 Wells Hall
>>>  Michigan State University
>>>  East Lansing, MI 48824
>>>  Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>>  preston at msu.edu
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 19:15:37 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:15:37 -0400
Subject: "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson
In-Reply-To: <3c61dbee6b95ab2d096602e76f9409ad@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

>An excellent point, Mark. Suppose that we write it as ",,, fade int'
>oblivion" or as "... fade into 'blivion" or even as "... fade into
>oblivion," i.e.  "...int[@ @]blivion."
>

Or (non-rhotic) "interblivian", whence the "interblivian fadeout".
You read it here first.  (I think.)

Larry

>On Jun 14, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
>>Subject:      "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Barry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>"I guess I'll fade into Bolivian now." -- Mike Tyson on his future
>>after
>>being KO'd by Lennox Lewis in 2002
>>(AOL NEWS)
>>  <<<<<
>>
>>Unless we have a clip, how can we tell whether to "credit" this one to
>>Tyson
>>or to the reporter?
>>
>>-- Mark
>>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 19:17:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:17:11 -0700
Subject: More on "punk"
Message-ID: 

"Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally referred to women.

JL

James Smith  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James Smith
Subject: More on "punk"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
and realities of prison life?
by John Bowers.

Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005

There are two words every convict immediately learns
to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
murder. These two terms are not used in the same way
as they are in the free world. It can be elementary
school name-calling on a deadly level.

(NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
up from another source.)

James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
|or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

---------------------------------
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 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 19:24:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:24:45 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ej8qvt@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      Re: ahold
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I guess I've heard the stress on the second syllable (nearly always)
> when the word is used as a question: [Is that] a'ight?

Hale yeah! ;-) It's also stressed on the second syllable in exclamatory
use.

> and on the first (sometimes) when it is a statement [that is] a'ight.

I also agree with "sometimes." After re-running this past my focus
group, I'm forced to admit that "AW 'ight," stressed on the first
syllable, is likely to occur only in simple agreement: "Suhmo'?"
"Aw'ight." ("Aw'ight" more-or-less represents my personal preference in
pronunciation and is not meant as a reflection on the validity of
"a'ight" as eye-dialect.)

-Wilson Gray

>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:15 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ahold
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray 
>> Subject:      Re: ahold
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------------
>>
>> Main stress can fall on the first syllable, too. It depends,
>> just as in standard English.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
>>> Subject:      Re: ahold
>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought "all right" was pronounced [aiy at i?] or something
>> close to
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've seen the hip-hop (or maybe Black English??) spelled
>> a'ight, and
>>> pronounced that way, with emphasis on the second syllable.
>>>
>>
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 19:34:15 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:34:15 -0400
Subject: spell Bar-B-Q
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ejcbqo@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:03 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING 
> Subject:      Re: spell Bar-B-Q
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Maybe it was written for Australians?

An excellent point!

-Wilson

>
>>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 06/14/05 11:27AM >>>
> FWIW, the book title, "Barbecuing With Bobby," fails as a pun, unless
> you pronounce it as though it was spelled as "Bobby Cuin' Wit' Bobby."
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> On Jun 14, 2005, at 12:32 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>> Subject:      Re: spell Bar-B-Q
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Along with numerous others, yes. Is there any need for the spelling
>> in Britain (except to refer to the American foodstuffs?).
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>> on 14/6/05 5:18 pm, Dennis R. Preston at preston at MSU.EDU wrote:
>>>
>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>>>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>>>>  Subject:      Re: aw-right
>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> ------
>>> --> -
>>>>
>>>>  arnold,
>>>>
>>>>  Good point; the rules don't work at all for more general
>>>> l-vocalizers
>>>>  like me (i.e., those who distinguish barbeque from grilling).
>>>>
>>>>  dInIs
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is 'barbeque' the American spelling of 'barbecue'?
>>>
>>>>>  On Jun 14, 2005, at 7:46 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  At 6:36 AM -0700 6/14/05, James Smith wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Anyway, the word is "awright".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  and only when it *is* a word.  So,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  "The kids are all right/alright/ = awright"  (= 'they're fine, no
>>>>>>  prob')
>>>>>>  "The kids are all right/*alright/*= awright" (= 'none of them are
>>>>>>  wrong')
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Which supports the utility of the non-standard but popular
>>>>>> "alright"
>>>>>>  spelling indicating wordhood, especially given the parallel to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  "The kids are {already/*all ready} gone"  [for me, opt. =
>>>>>> "awready"]
>>>>>>  "The kids are {all ready/*already} to go" [for me, =/= "awready"]
>>>>>
>>>>>  just to hammer home a point here:  this particular l-vocalization
>>>>>  occurs in the speech of people who are not generally l-vocalizers
>>>>> --
>>>>>  people like larry and me.
>>>>>
>>>>>  a moment of entertainment: i little while back i got an indignant
>>>>>  message from a correspondent incensed at my defense of
>>>>> "trepidatious"
>>>>>  on Language Log some time ago.  the header of the message:
>>>>>  I assume you think "alright" is a word, too.
>>>>>
>>>>>  (i've chosen not to respond.)
>>>>>
>>>>>  arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>>>  University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>>>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
>>>> Languages
>>>>  A-740 Wells Hall
>>>>  Michigan State University
>>>>  East Lansing, MI 48824
>>>>  Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>>>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>>>  preston at msu.edu
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor
>> Department of English
>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>> Office: (517) 432-3791
>> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>>
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 19:35:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:35:52 -0700
Subject: More on "punk"
Message-ID: 

I wouldn't even stroll through campus doing this.  I might be taken for a successful and beloved rap artist.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: More on "punk"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hasn't this been common knowledge for decades? Is there anyone here who
would stroll through a prison yard or through the 'hood randomly
calling people "punk" or "bitch"? In the words of Homey the Clown, "I
don't think so."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:26 AM, James Smith wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James Smith
> Subject: More on "punk"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
> and realities of prison life?
> by John Bowers.
>
> Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>
> There are two words every convict immediately learns
> to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
> However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
> of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
> your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
> and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
> murder. These two terms are not used in the same way
> as they are in the free world. It can be elementary
> school name-calling on a deadly level.
>
>
> (NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
> if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
> up from another source.)
>
>
>
> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 19:37:32 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:32 -0500
Subject: More on "punk"
Message-ID: 

>
> I wouldn't even stroll through campus doing this.  I might be
> taken for a successful and beloved rap artist.
>
 Snoop Slang Dogg

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 19:47:35 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:47:35 -0500
Subject: religious archives
Message-ID: 

FWIW, the Seventh Day Adventists have a ton of 19th - early 20th century
archives on line.  Unfortunately, most is in djvu format, which I don't
do.  But some of you other word-searchers (Ben? Barry?) may be able to
get into them.
http://www.adventistarchives.org/

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 19:57:34 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:57:34 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: <20050614191711.91634.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>"Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>referred to women.
>
>JL

specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g in Measure for Measure (v.i):

She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor wife.

Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.

Larry

>James Smith  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: James Smith
>Subject: More on "punk"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
>and realities of prison life?
>by John Bowers.
>
>Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>
>There are two words every convict immediately learns
>to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
>However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
>of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
>your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
>and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
>murder. These two terms are not used in the same way
>as they are in the free world. It can be elementary
>school name-calling on a deadly level.
>
>
>(NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
>if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
>up from another source.)
>
>
>
>James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
>|or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Discover Yahoo!
>  Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 14 20:04:42 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:04:42 EDT
Subject: Upside-Down Cake (1923)
Message-ID: 

The editor of Food History News was looking for a pre-1924 citation of
"Upside-Down Cake" a while back. This one doesn't have the usual pineapples  (Dole
pineapple had ads in 1925)--this has prunes!
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
     _The Syracuse Herald_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2jv5zVjK8ZrqtgFjzNmUlm8pUisYGfDxEUIF+CsZYmrz)  _Thursday,
March 15, 1923_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)
_Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="upside+down+cake"+AND+cityid:28660+AND+stateid:67+AND+range:1753-1924)   _New  York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="upside+down+cake"+AND+stateid:67+AND+ran
ge:1753-1924)   ...rvi KK  Unusual Prune Dishes UPSIDE-DOWN CAKE. Wash and
soak  the prunes in..
...
Pg. 15:
_Unusual_
_Prune Dishes_
...
_UPSIDE-DOWN CAKE._
Wash and soak the prunes in warm water for several hours; drain and remove
pits; beat one egg till light, gradually add one-half cup of sugar; beat till
creamy. Measure one cup sifted flour, sift again with one teaspoon baking
powder; add to egg mixture alternatively with one-quarter cup milk or water;
beat well, add two tablespoons melted shortening, one teaspoon vanilla; melt two
tablespoons butter in a small iron frying pan; spread one-half cup brown
sugar  evenly over pan, then one-quarter cup chopped walnuts; cover with prunes,
then  pour on cake batter. Bake in a moderate oven about 25 minutes. Will serve
five  persons.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 14 20:10:36 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:10:36 -0400
Subject: Oops! (Re: More on "punk")
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 3:57 PM -0400 6/14/05, Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>"Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>>referred to women.
>>
>>JL
>
>specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g. in Measure for
>Measure (v.i):
>
>She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor wife.
>
>Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.
>
That should be Jonson, not Johnson.  By the latter's era, the usage
may have been no longer extant for all I know.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 14 20:18:27 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:18:27 -0400
Subject: ahold
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:24:45 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>On Jun 14, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>> I guess I've heard the stress on the second syllable (nearly always)
>> when the word is used as a question: [Is that] a'ight?
>
>Hale yeah! ;-) It's also stressed on the second syllable in exclamatory
>use.
>
>> and on the first (sometimes) when it is a statement [that is] a'ight.
>
>I also agree with "sometimes." After re-running this past my focus
>group, I'm forced to admit that "AW 'ight," stressed on the first
>syllable, is likely to occur only in simple agreement: "Suhmo'?"
>"Aw'ight." ("Aw'ight" more-or-less represents my personal preference in
>pronunciation and is not meant as a reflection on the validity of
>"a'ight" as eye-dialect.)

When did the "a'ight" spelling first start appearing, anyway? It showed up
rather suddenly on the alt.rap newsgroup beginning in the fall of '92,
with usage gradually building before it peaked in the late '90s/early
'00s.  Here's the earliest appearance:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.rap/msg/37cd20e40a38717b
20 Oct 92 16:36:08 GMT
I think Mary J. Blige's 411 is a'ight.
-----

The spellings "aiight" and "aiiight" began appearing on the newsgroup in
1994. (The rap duo Gang Starr had a song on their 1994 album _ Hard to
Earn_ called "Aiiight Chill...").

--Ben Zimmer

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 14 20:20:43 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:20:43 -0400
Subject: ahold
In-Reply-To: <20050614040154.A34DDB2421@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

I found myself awhile ago arguing with myself on how to spell "get ahold
of". (Nota bene: left to myself, I would have written "a while ago" in the
previous sentence, but the solid spelling was NaturallySpeaking's first
output, and I don't feel strongly enough about that one to bother going back
and correcting it... although, evidently, I do feel strongly enough to put
much more effort into explaining it to you.)

The context was fairly formal, although spoken, the beginning of a
meditation on Yom haShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day):

 Six million... who can understand six million?
 One or ten we can grasp, a hundred even, but a million? Six million?
 It's an abstraction, it's astronomy or accounting. We can't get ahold of it.

So I felt reluctant to use what looks very much like a misspelling of a
colloquialism, something like "alot" (which I detest) and "alright" (which I
dislike). But unlike Arnold, I'm not comfortable treating this as a count
noun either. I wound up deciding that the expression is, at least for me, an
atomic idiom, no longer equal to the sum of its parts, but that unlike "a
lot" and "all right" (and I have just deleted "alright" from my
NaturallySpeaking vocabulary list), which I am used to seeing, I'm unwilling
to associate the idiomatic meaning with the two-word spelling.

So maybe I'm inconsistent. So sue me.

-- Mark A. Mandel, idiomatically closer to Don Rickles than to Walt Whitman
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 14 20:25:55 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:25:55 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <20050614040154.A34DDB2421@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Wilson writes:
   >>>>>
FWIW, Ray Sharpe, OTOH, struck me as a black man who sang like a white
man.
 <<<<<

How 'bout Mose Allison?

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 14 20:31:15 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:31:15 -0400
Subject: "pencil whip"
In-Reply-To: <20050614040154.A34DDB2421@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

As soon as I saw the expression here, I associated it with "pistol-whip",
which fits the sense of "attack someone (in writing)".

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 21:27:48 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:27:48 -0500
Subject: pro-choice
Message-ID: 

pro-choice, OED has 1975

[letter to editor] "Abortion Backer Criticized" Walter Gates Jr.
Illinois | Chicago | The Herald | 1974-05-27 sec 3 p. 10 col 2.
"And finally you say you are pro-life but also pro-choice."

pro-life, OED has 1961 (general sense), 1978 (anti-abortion sense)
"Pro-life council denounces legal 'murder' " Gail Vaughan
West Virginia | Morgantown | The Dominion News | 1971-12-12 p. 1S, col
3.

"The council plans an active campaign, prolife rather than
anti-abortion, in the Morgantown area."

pro-lifer, OED has 1976

[letter to editor] "Says 'Life Threated'" Mary Christensen Illinois |
Chicago | The Herald | 1974-05-23 sec 6 p. 8 col 1.
"This gentleman also feels that pro-lifers labor under some mistaken
belief that pro-abortioners need only to be informed in order to realize
the error of their ways."

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 22:00:24 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:00:24 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ejg5ru@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>> "Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>> referred to women.
>>
>> JL
>
> specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g in Measure for
> Measure (v.i):
>
> She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor wife.
>
> Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.
>
> Larry

"Punk" is used as a word for "prostitute" in the book, "My Secret
Life," by "Walter." In an earlier discussion of "punk," I have a vague
memory of someone suggesting or stating that "My Secret Life" is, in
some sense, not real. FWIW, Harvard owns one partial and one complete
copy of the original, actual, published-in-The-Netherlands version of
this work. Of course, the comment may have been that MSL is fiction and
not autobiography. That is certainly a possibility and I have no
opinion on that.

BTW, in Britspeak, does "spunk" still mean "semen"?

-Wilson Gray

>
>> James Smith  wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: James Smith
>> Subject: More on "punk"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> ?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
>> and realities of prison life?
>> by John Bowers.
>>
>> Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>>
>> There are two words every convict immediately learns
>> to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
>> However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
>> of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
>> your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
>> and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
>> murder. These two terms are not used in the same way
>> as they are in the free world. It can be elementary
>> school name-calling on a deadly level.
>>
>>
>> (NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
>> if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
>> up from another source.)
>>
>>
>>
>> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
>> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
>> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
>> |or slowly and cautiously.
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Discover Yahoo!
>>  Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 22:11:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:11:52 -0700
Subject: More on "punk"
Message-ID: 

Luckily for us the historicity of MSL doesn't matter.  Its date is all that counts.

"Spunk" is not only still current in Britain; it now has some U.S. currency as well.  In a certain genre of, um, literature, anyway.

Howzabout we drop the commas and coin the term "um literature," with the stress on "um" ?

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: More on "punk"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: More on "punk"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>> "Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>> referred to women.
>>
>> JL
>
> specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g in Measure for
> Measure (v.i):
>
> She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor wife.
>
> Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.
>
> Larry

"Punk" is used as a word for "prostitute" in the book, "My Secret
Life," by "Walter." In an earlier discussion of "punk," I have a vague
memory of someone suggesting or stating that "My Secret Life" is, in
some sense, not real. FWIW, Harvard owns one partial and one complete
copy of the original, actual, published-in-The-Netherlands version of
this work. Of course, the comment may have been that MSL is fiction and
not autobiography. That is certainly a possibility and I have no
opinion on that.

BTW, in Britspeak, does "spunk" still mean "semen"?

-Wilson Gray

>
>> James Smith wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: James Smith
>> Subject: More on "punk"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> ?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
>> and realities of prison life?
>> by John Bowers.
>>
>> Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>>
>> There are two words every convict immediately learns
>> to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
>> However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
>> of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
>> your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
>> and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
>> murder. These two terms are not used in the same way
>> as they are in the free world. It can be elementary
>> school name-calling on a deadly level.
>>
>>
>> (NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
>> if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
>> up from another source.)
>>
>>
>>
>> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
>> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
>> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
>> |or slowly and cautiously.
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Discover Yahoo!
>> Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Tue Jun 14 22:17:39 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:17:39 +0100
Subject: More on "punk"/spunk
In-Reply-To: <200506142200.j5EM0ak4013845@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 14/6/05 11:00 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Wilson Gray 
> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>> "Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>>> referred to women.
>>>
>>> JL
>>
>> specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g in Measure for
>> Measure (v.i):
>>
>> She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor wife.
>>
>> Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.
>>
>> Larry
>
> "Punk" is used as a word for "prostitute" in the book, "My Secret
> Life," by "Walter." In an earlier discussion of "punk," I have a vague
> memory of someone suggesting or stating that "My Secret Life" is, in
> some sense, not real. FWIW, Harvard owns one partial and one complete
> copy of the original, actual, published-in-The-Netherlands version of
> this work. Of course, the comment may have been that MSL is fiction and
> not autobiography. That is certainly a possibility and I have no
> opinion on that.
>
> BTW, in Britspeak, does "spunk" still mean "semen"?
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
Oh yes. As both noun, as well as verb = ejaculate.

Of course, historical 'literary' usage (presumably male authored) also has
it as vaginal sexual secretions:

'Then I beheld her splendid cunt in all its magnificence of size and
hairiness. I sank on my knees and glued my lips to the oozing entrance, for
she was one who spent profusely, her cunt had the true delicious odour, and
her spunk was thick and glutinous for a woman.'
--Anon, 'The Romance of Lust', London, 1873-76 [Grove press, NY, 1968, 410]

and also as to orgasm (f):

'Then with a shuddering groan, her hands slowed between her thighs and with
convulsive kicks she too spunked down her warm thighs.'
--Pearson groves, 'Juvenile lead', Pall Mall Press, Paris, 1957 [page number
lost]

--Neil Crawford

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 22:24:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:24:11 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3j17aa@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson writes:
>>>>>>
> FWIW, Ray Sharpe, OTOH, struck me as a black man who sang like a white
> man.
>  <<<<<
>
> How 'bout Mose Allison?

As a black man who sings like a white man? I didn't realize that he was
black, though I have no problem accepting that he is, by virtue of the
one-drop rule. If that rule was dropped [no pun intended], I'd find
myself in a different "race" from some of my cousins and from my late
grandparents.

-Wilson Gray

>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 22:34:27 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:34:27 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ejpdqq@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:11 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Luckily for us the historicity of MSL doesn't matter.  Its date is all
> that counts.
>
> "Spunk" is not only still current in Britain; it now has some U.S.
> currency as well.  In a certain genre of, um, literature, anyway.
>
> Howzabout we drop the commas and coin the term "um literature," with
> the stress on "um" ?
>
> JL

You have my vote, Jon.

-Wilson

>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: More on "punk"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Laurence Horn
>> Subject: Re: More on "punk"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>> "Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>>> referred to women.
>>>
>>> JL
>>
>> specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g in Measure for
>> Measure (v.i):
>>
>> She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor wife.
>>
>> Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.
>>
>> Larry
>
> "Punk" is used as a word for "prostitute" in the book, "My Secret
> Life," by "Walter." In an earlier discussion of "punk," I have a vague
> memory of someone suggesting or stating that "My Secret Life" is, in
> some sense, not real. FWIW, Harvard owns one partial and one complete
> copy of the original, actual, published-in-The-Netherlands version of
> this work. Of course, the comment may have been that MSL is fiction and
> not autobiography. That is certainly a possibility and I have no
> opinion on that.
>
> BTW, in Britspeak, does "spunk" still mean "semen"?
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>>> James Smith wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: James Smith
>>> Subject: More on "punk"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> ---------
>>>
>>> ?Cell Survivor, A former inmate breaks down the myths
>>> and realities of prison life?
>>> by John Bowers.
>>>
>>> Salt Lake City Weekly, April 28, 2005
>>>
>>> There are two words every convict immediately learns
>>> to remove from his vocabulary: ?Punk? and ?Bitch.?
>>> However cute or funny they sound rolling off the lips
>>> of a favorite comic or movie star, calling someone
>>> your homosexual slave is an instant declaration of war
>>> and invitation to a fight, your beating or your own
>>> murder. These two terms are not used in the same way
>>> as they are in the free world. It can be elementary
>>> school name-calling on a deadly level.
>>>
>>>
>>> (NOTE from J Smith: it wasn't clear in the SL Weekly
>>> if this was an original piece for SL Weekly or picked
>>> up from another source.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
>>> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
>>> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
>>> |or slowly and cautiously.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Discover Yahoo!
>>> Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 14 22:43:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:43:16 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"/spunk
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3j94kr@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:17 PM, neil wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       neil 
> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"/spunk
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> on 14/6/05 11:00 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray 
>> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"
>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> --> -
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
>>> Subject:      Re: More on "punk"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> At 12:17 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>> "Punk" is another one of those homosexual words that originally
>>>> referred to women.
>>>>
>>>> JL
>>>
>>> specifically = 'harlot' (so Farmer & Henley), e.g in Measure for
>>> Measure (v.i):
>>>
>>> She may be a punk, for many of them are neither maid, widow, nor
>>> wife.
>>>
>>> Similarly Johnson, Chapman, Congreve, etc.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>
>> "Punk" is used as a word for "prostitute" in the book, "My Secret
>> Life," by "Walter." In an earlier discussion of "punk," I have a vague
>> memory of someone suggesting or stating that "My Secret Life" is, in
>> some sense, not real. FWIW, Harvard owns one partial and one complete
>> copy of the original, actual, published-in-The-Netherlands version of
>> this work. Of course, the comment may have been that MSL is fiction
>> and
>> not autobiography. That is certainly a possibility and I have no
>> opinion on that.
>>
>> BTW, in Britspeak, does "spunk" still mean "semen"?
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
> Oh yes. As both noun, as well as verb = ejaculate.
>
> Of course, historical 'literary' usage (presumably male authored) also
> has
> it as vaginal sexual secretions:
>
> 'Then I beheld her splendid cunt in all its magnificence of size and
> hairiness. I sank on my knees and glued my lips to the oozing
> entrance, for
> she was one who spent profusely, her cunt had the true delicious
> odour, and
> her spunk was thick and glutinous for a woman.'
> --Anon, 'The Romance of Lust', London, 1873-76 [Grove press, NY, 1968,
> 410]
>
> and also as to orgasm (f):
>
> 'Then with a shuddering groan, her hands slowed between her thighs and
> with
> convulsive kicks she too spunked down her warm thighs.'
> --Pearson groves, 'Juvenile lead', Pall Mall Press, Paris, 1957 [page
> number
> lost]
>
> --Neil Crawford
>

Hm. Wonder whether I can get to the neighborhood D[irty]B[ook]S[tore]
before it closes.

-Wilson Gray

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 22:44:48 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:44:48 -0500
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

>From the Project Blue Book archives, online, and elsewhere.

UFO -- OED has Oct 9, 1953

[Air Force memorandum, dated 3 Nov 1952, online at:
http://bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB7-938 ]

"After the briefing Col Bower and Capt Ruppelt met with seven people
from the lab who were interested in the subject of UFOs."

The subject document is a trip report from Col Bower and Capt. Ruppelt
to a group of scientists at Los Alamos.  Immediately preceding this
memo/trip report in the microfilm roll which has been archived is a
poorer-quality copy of the same memo.  Immediately preceding that,
however, is a letter from Ruppelt (who, being junior officer, probably
wrote the trip report), to one of the scientists at Los Alamos:
http://bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB7-936

In this letter, written to a civilian, Ruppelt doesn't use the acronym
"UFO"; he uses "UAF", meaning unidentified aerial phenomena.  Does this
possibly indicate that "UFO" was primarily a military acronym at this
point in time, and didn't get out into the civilian world for another
year? (note the phrase "unidentified flying object" appears in the LA
Times in Dec, 1949 (quoted from an Air Force press release) (OED has
1950 for the long phrase), but the acronym "UFO" doesn't show up in
civilian sources til much later.

"unidentified flying object"
>From U.S. Air Force report "Unidentified Aerial Objects Project "Sign"
", dated Feb 1949, Technical Report no. F-TR-2274-IA, L. H. Truettner
and A. B. Deyarmond, p. iii
online at: http://bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=NARA-PBB85-8

"However, the report will furnish information on the  present state of
the investigation to staff personnel in this headquarters and in higher
echelons, and to others who are required to assess the possibility of a
threat to national security presented by the sighting of such large
number of unidentified flying objects."

flying saucer -- OED has 8 July 1947.  ADS Archives have, I believe, 30
June 1947, for quotes direct from sources, and 27 June for second-hand
quotes.

Wisconsin | Sheboygan | The Sheboygan Press | 1947-06-28 p. 1 col 1.
"Skygazers Still Insist They Saw 'Flying Saucers'; Army Skeptical"
United Press wire article
"An army rocket expert ventured the opinion today that Kenneth Arnold's
flying saucers were merely jet planes but almost a dozen persons sprang
up about the country to say they had seen the mysterious shiny discs
also."

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 14 23:03:22 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:03:22 -0400
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy
Message-ID: 

        As usual, Arnold's comments are insightful.  Still, shouldn't we expect words to be spelled correctly, at least in formal contexts and where there is an accepted correct spelling?  I'm not sure that spellings like "idiosyncracy" and "supercede" are really all that different from other frequent misspellings.

        I agree that the advice to "look it up" isn't always that useful.  I remember making that point in high school with the word "gendarme," to a teacher who did not know that it started with the letter G; it was several days before she puzzled it out.  The situation is more difficult with "supercede," which Microsoft Word does not recognize as a misspelling (though it persists in marking every restrictive which and every use of the passive voice).

        In short, I think Arnold is providing a real service to his students when he alerts them that "supercede" and "idiosyncracy" are not accepted spellings.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Arnold M. Zwicky
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:06 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: supercede, idiosyncracy

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:31 AM, James Smith wrote:

> I was actually taught "supercede" back in the day, and
> had to be reeducated to the "correct" spelling.  I
> have spoken and read "idiosyncrasy", but I believe
> this is the first time in my life I have written the
> word, and save for having the spelling brought to my
> attention there is at least a 50% probability I would
> have used a non-standard spelling.

this provides the beginning of an answer to John Baker's: " It seems
to me that anyone who is going to use a $2 word like supersede or
idiosyncrasy should take the trouble to learn how to spell it."

the thing is, in my experience the people using "supersede" and
"idiosyncrasy" are just using words familiar to them in academic (or
other technical) talk; they aren't reaching for fancy words.  so it
doesn't occur to them to look the words up.  "supersede" *sounds*
like it belongs with
   precede recede concede accede secede intercede
     (also succeed proceed)
and "idiosyncrasy", with related "idiosyncratic", sounds like it
belongs with all those "-cracy" words with "-cratic" relatives:
   democracy theocracy aristocracy autocracy...
hence the spellings "supercede" and "idiosyncracy".  then, since a
fair number of these spellings will occur in print, they are reinforced.

now, of course, the implied etymologies for "supersede" (as super
+cede) and "idiosyncrasy" (as idio+syn+crac+y) are just wrong.  but
it is way too much to expect that people, even very educated people,
should know the etymologies of the words they hear. (and even if they
do, this knowledge isn't always a reliable guide to spelling.)

the advice to look up words whose spelling you're unsure of is not
very helpful in general, since first you have to *be* unsure, and if
you try to play safe by looking up every infrequent or technical
word, you'll be paralyzed (even if you can figure out *how* to look
up the words; if you think it's "supercede" you'll have something of
a task to find "supersede").

eventually, someone -- someone like me -- will set you straight, and
then you'll at least remember that these words are problematic.  or
you can use a spellchecker, though if your misspellings are
infrequent the spellchecker is likely to be a big nuisance.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 23:13:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:13:21 -0700
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt (1922-1960) is generally credited as the coiner of the initialism "UFO."  Memory does not absolutely guarantee that he said so in his still readable memoir of his tenure as Blue Book chief, _The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects_ (Garden City: Doubleday, 1956). This was one of the most popular and influential '50s books on UFOs. Naturally I prize my own copy in my collection of world classics but can't find it at the moment.  Will keep looking.

The first edition of Ruppelt's book, written soon after he left the Air Force, comes across as a levelheaded narrative by a person (with an engineering background) who's genuinely puzzled by some sightings, especially those reported through channels by USAF jet pilots. A revised edition, published in 1959, while he was an executive for a defense contractor, adds three chapters in which he ridicules the entire subject.

[Cue _Twilight Zone_ theme...]

Bill may have discovered the first use of "UFO" on paper.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: ufo, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From the Project Blue Book archives, online, and elsewhere.

UFO -- OED has Oct 9, 1953

[Air Force memorandum, dated 3 Nov 1952, online at:
http://bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB7-938 ]

"After the briefing Col Bower and Capt Ruppelt met with seven people
from the lab who were interested in the subject of UFOs."

The subject document is a trip report from Col Bower and Capt. Ruppelt
to a group of scientists at Los Alamos. Immediately preceding this
memo/trip report in the microfilm roll which has been archived is a
poorer-quality copy of the same memo. Immediately preceding that,
however, is a letter from Ruppelt (who, being junior officer, probably
wrote the trip report), to one of the scientists at Los Alamos:
http://bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB7-936

In this letter, written to a civilian, Ruppelt doesn't use the acronym
"UFO"; he uses "UAF", meaning unidentified aerial phenomena. Does this
possibly indicate that "UFO" was primarily a military acronym at this
point in time, and didn't get out into the civilian world for another
year? (note the phrase "unidentified flying object" appears in the LA
Times in Dec, 1949 (quoted from an Air Force press release) (OED has
1950 for the long phrase), but the acronym "UFO" doesn't show up in
civilian sources til much later.

"unidentified flying object"
>From U.S. Air Force report "Unidentified Aerial Objects Project "Sign"
", dated Feb 1949, Technical Report no. F-TR-2274-IA, L. H. Truettner
and A. B. Deyarmond, p. iii
online at: http://bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=NARA-PBB85-8

"However, the report will furnish information on the present state of
the investigation to staff personnel in this headquarters and in higher
echelons, and to others who are required to assess the possibility of a
threat to national security presented by the sighting of such large
number of unidentified flying objects."

flying saucer -- OED has 8 July 1947. ADS Archives have, I believe, 30
June 1947, for quotes direct from sources, and 27 June for second-hand
quotes.

Wisconsin | Sheboygan | The Sheboygan Press | 1947-06-28 p. 1 col 1.
"Skygazers Still Insist They Saw 'Flying Saucers'; Army Skeptical"
United Press wire article
"An army rocket expert ventured the opinion today that Kenneth Arnold's
flying saucers were merely jet planes but almost a dozen persons sprang
up about the country to say they had seen the mysterious shiny discs
also."

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 23:16:10 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:16:10 -0500
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

>
> Bill may have discovered the first use of "UFO" on paper.
>
And it's entirely possible that there is an earlier one in the Blue Book
archive -- the search engine is _not_ user friendly, and when the
originals were microfilmed, they simply started photographing documents,
without much indexing or organizing.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 23:18:41 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:18:41 -0700
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

At the beginning of ch. 1, Ruppelt writes parenthetically,

"UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words 'flying saucers.'

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: ufo, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Bill may have discovered the first use of "UFO" on paper.
>
And it's entirely possible that there is an earlier one in the Blue Book
archive -- the search engine is _not_ user friendly, and when the
originals were microfilmed, they simply started photographing documents,
without much indexing or organizing.

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 14 23:28:17 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:28:17 -0500
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

> At the beginning of ch. 1, Ruppelt writes parenthetically,
>
> "UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words
> 'flying saucers.'
>
> JL
>

Ruppelt's book online:
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/Rufo.htm

From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 14 23:37:42 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:37:42 -0400
Subject: ufo, etc.
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D76DF84@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.a
 rmy.mil>
Message-ID: 

By free association: here is a little spelling error which really and truly
appeared repeatedly in the French-language press around 1970 (although this
example is copied from the Web):

<>

I don't know whether there's any significance to this. Does it qualify as
an eggcorn? (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 14 23:38:11 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:38:11 -0700
Subject: supercede etc.
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296C33@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 4:03 PM, John Baker wrote:

> ... The situation is more difficult with "supercede," which
> Microsoft Word does not recognize as a misspelling (though it
> persists in marking every restrictive which and every use of the
> passive voice).

i can now tell you, thanks to a paper written by lia carpeneti, one
of my sophomore seminar students, that the Microsoft Word grammar
checker does *not* mark every use of the passive voice, only some
subset of them that the program can supply a "fix" for; this is made
clear on the relevant website.  entertainingly, the fixes are not
infrequently ungrammatical.  the program does flag

   The group of men who have emerged as Iraq's rulers is dominated by
aging former opposition politicians--heavy-set power brokers with
thick jowls and armed militias.

and suggests transforming it to

   Aging former opposition politicians--heavy-set power brokers with
thick jowls and armed militias dominates the group of men who have
emerged as Iraq's rulers.

as carpeneti notes, not only does this transformation alter the
information structure of the sentence, in a way that she and i both
find unsatisfactory, but it also introduces two genuine errors: the
missing matching dash and an incorrect subject-verb agreement.  eek.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 14 23:44:03 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:44:03 -0700
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

Whenever I've mentioned the name "Dr. Condon" to otherwise intelligent people, they either burst into laughter or ask cautiously, "WHAT was his name?"

A distinguished Ph.D. boggled, "His name was CONDOM?"  Then *he* had a laughing fit.

All such conversations were in English.

Like Richard Condon, Dr. C. must have been a helluva man.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: ufo, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By free association: here is a little spelling error which really and truly
appeared repeatedly in the French-language press around 1970 (although this
example is copied from the Web):

>

I don't know whether there's any significance to this. Does it qualify as
an eggcorn? (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!

From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Jun 15 00:10:49 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:10:49 -0400
Subject: more of What is this?
Message-ID: 

Sunday's Doonesbury has a fine example of these blended cliches, or whatever
they're going to be called, among a catalogue of Bushisms.

"Free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no
conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." (Sept. 17, 2004)

 ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>>>>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 06/08/05 09:12AM
>>>>
>>>>From an internal memo here at Linfield:
>>
>> "Because they can't review the credentials of the successful hire,
> they
>> are
>> putting a lot of eggs on the quality of the consultant."
>>
>> This isn't a blend of two idioms, like "horse of a different feather"
> (a
>> usage beloved of the mother of a childhood friend of mine).  Rather,
> it's
>> an incomplete one, which renders it comical.
>>
>> Is there a technical term for this, does anybody know?
>>
>> Peter M.
>>
>> *****************************************************************
>> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>>
>
> From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:17 PM
> Subject: Re: What is this?
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING 
>> Subject:      Re: What is this?
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I have a colleague who specializes in these blends.  She doesn't even
> try,
>> she just does it. I think it's so cool that I have tried to master
> this
>> art, but I am convinced it's a gift.  I come up with stupid things
> like
>> "Don't cross your chickens 'til your bridges have hatched." But she's
>> brilliant.
>> Just this morning, she said "Song and pony show." This just flows.
>> My favorite?: "This is so easy, it's like shooting babies in a
> barrel."
>>
>> Fritz J
>
>
>
>

From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Wed Jun 15 01:03:59 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:03:59 -0500
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

So what is Johnie Mathis?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"

> On Jun 14, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> > Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> > Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > Wilson writes:
> >>>>>>
> > FWIW, Ray Sharpe, OTOH, struck me as a black man who sang like a white
> > man.
> >  <<<<<
> >
> > How 'bout Mose Allison?
>
> As a black man who sings like a white man? I didn't realize that he was
> black, though I have no problem accepting that he is, by virtue of the
> one-drop rule. If that rule was dropped [no pun intended], I'd find
> myself in a different "race" from some of my cousins and from my late
> grandparents.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> >
> > -- Mark
> > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
> >
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 15 02:09:41 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:09:41 -0400
Subject: More on "punk"
In-Reply-To: <20050614221152.75995.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3:11 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Luckily for us the historicity of MSL doesn't matter.  Its date is
>all that counts.
>
>"Spunk" is not only still current in Britain; it now has some U.S.
>currency as well.  In a certain genre of, um, literature, anyway.
>
>Howzabout we drop the commas and coin the term "um literature," with
>the stress on "um" ?
>
>JL

Or maybe just "umliterature" sansspace, as in "umfriend"?  (The
latter, variously defined as 'A sexual relationship of dubious
standing or a concealed intimate relationship, such as, "This is
Bridget, my.... um.... friend"' has 580 google hits.)

larry

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 15 02:30:29 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:30:29 -0400
Subject: (Henry Stern's "rubber stamp") Fwd: There They Go Again
In-Reply-To: <20050614134817.45576576.starquest@nycivic.org>
Message-ID: 

FWIW, Henry Stern mentions his "rubber stamp" quote in an article that appears in today's New York Sun.
--Barry Popik
(It's near the bottom of the article.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry J. Stern 
To: bapopik at aol.com
Sent: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:00:16 -0700
Subject: There They Go Again

The Rascals Are At It Again;
Councilmembers Want Four More Years
Although Two Referenda Backed Term Limits

By Henry J. Stern
June 14, 2005

Twelve years after term limits for city elected officials were adopted by referendum, the City Council is making its third attempt to overturn the decision of the voters.  The background and status of the issue is discussed in detail by Sam Roberts in an article which began on B1 and jumped to B4 in Saturday's Times.  The column is not likely to be widely read, since on weekends in June, many New Yorkers are out of town, at parks and beaches, or occupying themselves in other ways than reading political analyses.  In fact, prominent people have announced their divorces on Friday evening so as to attract minimal public attention.

Mr. Roberts has written an authoritative and sophisticatead piece which describes the history of the controversy and focuses on the most recent efforts of City Councilmembers to prolong their tenure.  The term limits, approved in 1993, resulted in a nearly complete change of personnel after the 2001 election.  Without making a definitive judgment on the new Council, (the members range in industry, intellect and integrity from Yassky to Jennings) it is undisputed that a lot of dead wood was removed four years ago?eople who won re-election term after term in districts gerrymandered for their convenience.

The latest effort at resuscitation is a brazen attempt by the incumbents (the usual suspects) to extend the eight year limit on their terms to twelve years, or possibly to abolish term limits altogether, notwithstanding two referenda that have been held on the matter, in which the people decisively supported the two-term limit for all city elected officials  (mayor, comptroller, public advocate, five borough presidents and 51 councilmembers).  The rule was simple: eight and out.

The Council's first foray into the area of term limits came in 1996, when under the leadership of Speaker Peter F. Vallone, it sent the issue back to the public by placing it on the ballot for a second referendum.  When the votes were counted, repeal had lost, by a margin of 54 per cent to 46 per cent.  Term limits stayed in effect.  It is to the credit of Speaker Vallone, however, that he tried to reverse the public's decision by giving them another opportunity to vote on the matter.  Fair and reasonable.

The next attempt was in 2001, the year that a majority of the Council would be ineligible to run for re-election.  A few had decamped the previous year to the State Legislature, which has no such term limit rules.  In fact, the longest serving state senator in the United States sits in Albany, our sleepy capital.  He is John J. Marchi of Staten Island, who first took office in 1957.

Senator Marchi's greatest political moment came in June 1969, when he surprisingly defeated the incumbent mayor, John V. Lindsay, in the Republican primary.  Lindsay went on to win re-election on the Liberal Party line in November, the first and only time the Liberals elected a mayor on their own. Mr. Marchi, the Republican candidate, came in third in the general election, with the Democratic nominee, City Comptroller Mario A. Procaccino, running second.

Many political analysts believe that, if Marchi had not defeated Lindsay in the primary, the race would have been one and one between Lindsay and Procaccino, and the comptroller would have won.  Because of the upset of the incumbent in the primary,  Lindsay was opposed  in November by two (not one) Italian American and relatively conservative (by New York standards) candidates, Lindsay was re-elected with a plurality, but not a majority, of the vote.

Not wishing to be involved in another Republican primary, Lindsay and a number of his aides switched to the Democratic Party in August 1971.  He then sought the Democratic presidential nomination in 1972, a candidacy that was widely regarded as premature at best.

In the 2001 attempt to extend their political lives, the incumbents garnered substantial support in the Council.  The bill was defeated, however, in the Committee on Government Operations, in a 5-4 vote, with the deciding vote cast by the lone Republican on the committee, Stephen J. Fiala of Staten Island.

Mr. Fiala said that at the time he was personally opposed to term limits, but he felt that in a democracy, a decision made by the people should only be changed by the people, and not by a small group of those who would be adversely affected by the decision.  Fiala is now the Richmond County Clerk, and a civic and environmental activist on the island.

In 2003, the Council pulled off a successful ploy which tweaked term limits slightly.  Speaker Gifford Miller had been elected in January 2002 for a two year term.  There was a midterm Council election to be held in 2003 (and every twenty years thereafter), required because of the redistricting that followed the decennial census of 2000.  Miller and the Council passed a bill defining a term as four years, not two, so that he could serve four years as speaker.  The bill also had a trick provision preventing people who had left the Council in 2001 from running in 2003, sparing incumbents from challenge by their immediate predecessors.

The Miller bill was challenged in court in Brooklyn.  The law was invalidated in the Supreme Court but eventually upheld in the Appellate Division, 3-1.  The feeling was that the changes were minor, and consistent with the eight year term, although some members who held fractional terms (like Mr. Miller) could serve longer.  There is language in the opinion that the Council had the right to change the law, but a more substantial modification is likely to be disputed more vigorously.

That brings us to the present, where Councilmember Gale Brewer of Manhattan plans to introduce a bill, to be considered after the 2005 election, for the Council to extend the two-term limit to three terms.  It is possible that others may seek to abolish the restriction altogether, or shrewdly wait until 2009 to change the three term limit to four terms.

Why should anyone want to leave the Council, with its six figure salary, including lulus, the lack of any restriction on outside work or income, the ample staffs, the mailing privileges at public expense for self-serving illustrated brochures, and all the privileges and emoluments which come with good pay and light work, which basically consists of intoning 'Aye' upon hearing your surname mentioned on a roll call?

The fight is just beginning, and we predict that newspapers and good government groups still have the vitality to oppose this latest attempt to overrule the people of the City of New York, who have twice voted that eight years is enough for these worthies, and at the end of that time they should be able to either find themselves another public office, or get a job elsewhere if they can.

But the Council insiders are utterly without shame, or regard for the decisions of the electorate. They can be expected, on the basis of past performance, to do everything they can to preserve their privileged positions of pomp and power.

Today, the cat is out of the bag.  We know months in advance what the rascals are up to.  And public discussion of the proposed coup can take place during the campaign, rather than after the election, when those elected will have four years in office before the voters can hold them accountable.

The City Council may not mean much in the larger picture.  It was in 1965 that I first said that "the Council is less than a rubber stamp, because a rubber stamp at least leaves an impression."  It has gained considerable power since then, in great part because of the persistent efforts of former Speaker Vallone.  The Council has not significantly improved, however, in terms of the quality or independence of its members, so the negative evaluation which could have been applied to the former Board of Aldermen remains relevant in the 21st century.

One cannot leave the subject of the Board of Aldermen, predecessor to the City Council, without telling the story of the most abrupt conclusion ever to a meeting of the Board.  Someone opened the rear door of the Council chamber and shouted, "Alderman, your saloon's on fire", and the room emptied immediately.

Today's City Council is much more reluctant than the old Board to clear out of their ornate chamber at City Hall, even when the law tells them it is time to go.  Their final public service should be to depart, not in haste, but on time.

Hasta la vista, Councilmembers.

(A shorter version of this article appears on page 11 of today's New York Sun.)

Henry J. Stern
starquest at nycivic.orgNew York Civic
520 Eighth Avenue
22nd Floor
New York, NY 10018
(212) 564-4441
(212) 564-5588 (fax)

www.nycivic.org

Change your subscription
http://www.nycivic.org/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 02:59:27 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:27 -0700
Subject: More on "punk"
Message-ID: 

"Umliterature" it is, but the stress must be on the first syllable or I won't say it.

The existence of "umfriend" shows that "um-" is one of the few genuine, diphonemic, English-derived prefixes in a thousand years.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: More on "punk"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 3:11 PM -0700 6/14/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Luckily for us the historicity of MSL doesn't matter. Its date is
>all that counts.
>
>"Spunk" is not only still current in Britain; it now has some U.S.
>currency as well. In a certain genre of, um, literature, anyway.
>
>Howzabout we drop the commas and coin the term "um literature," with
>the stress on "um" ?
>
>JL

Or maybe just "umliterature" sansspace, as in "umfriend"? (The
latter, variously defined as 'A sexual relationship of dubious
standing or a concealed intimate relationship, such as, "This is
Bridget, my.... um.... friend"' has 580 google hits.)

larry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 15 03:46:20 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:46:20 -0400
Subject: "Dr. Midnight" cookies
Message-ID: 

DR. MIDNIGHT + CHOCOLATE--305 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits
...
I went to Taylor's on Chambers Street and had some of its strawberry iced tea, supposedly one of the city's best thirst quenchers for a hot day, not that anyone would know it's a hot day...
...
Taylor's is also a bakery and it had Monkey Bread and Dr. Midnight cookies. Does anybody know the good doctor? Is he from California? Great chocolate cookie, even before midnight.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
Chocolate Lovers
... rahul.net>... Dr. Midnight - Chocolate Chocolate Chip & Brownie Cookie Pacific
Cookie Company in Santa Cruz, Ca. Death By Chocolate ...
alt.gothic - Aug 30 1996, 10:42 am by Canticle - 2 messages - 2 authors
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
Cookie Varieties
Dr. Midnight A chocolate lovers dream. Guittard semi-sweet chocolate, ... A "cool"
variation on Dr. Midnight - we replace the chocolate chips with green ...
www.sendacake.com/Cookies/cookievarieties.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
...
Monterey
Double Chocolate Orange Uniced Sponge White Iced Yellow. Variety Cake Asst. - 4/9"
... Dr. Midnight; Lemon Drop; Oatmeal Raisin; or Peanut ...
www.sierrameat.com/bakery.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
...
Sendacake.com Secure Ordering Page
... When they say "Just gimme some cookies" Standard Cookie Assortment (Oatmeal Raisin,
Peanut Butter, Lemon Drop, Dr. Midnight, Chocolate Chip). ...
https://secure-02.portline.com/ sendacake/order.cfm?pid=807402 - 39k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
...
Talk Chocolate To Me Gift Basket!
Chip, Dr. Midnight). Talk Chocolate To Me Gift Basket! ... Standard, AlmondJoe,
Cahootz, ChocolateChip, Dr. Midnight, Chocolate Chip w/ Walnuts, LemonDrop, ...
www.givechocolate.com/tachtomegiba.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun 15 04:02:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:02:11 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3bhgsb@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 12, 2005, at 1:12 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:27:52 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>
>> And what is it that's supposed to be "humorous" in this fiction? Its
>> content or the fact that it's written in "black dialect"?
>
> That wasn't meant to be a personal evaluation of his work. I was
> cribbing
> from this site: . I
> have no
> clue why this sort of stuff was considered "humorous" at the time. The
> past is a different country, as they say...

That's true.

>
> Regardless of his attempts at humor through racist caricature, I
> wonder if
> he was picking up on an actual locution he had heard with "Is you is
> or is
> you ain't?" Perhaps this was a common jocular expression that Louis
> Jordan
> then put to song two decades later.

It's certainly not impossible that an expression could live for twenty
years. I know the expression only as the title of a song. I've never
heard it used in natural speech, but that could be mere coincidence.
The expression, "ripping and running," which I first heard from my
grandparents, who were born in the 19th century, is still in use,
today. Literally. I heard it used by a black woman on today's Maury
Show. Ob the other hand, Jordan simply could have made up the phrase
independently.

>
>> Did Mr.Cohen live long enough to become familiar with the "Carolina
>> Israelite"?
>
> Cohen died in 1959, so he would have been alive for Harry Golden's
> heyday,
> but I don't know if their politics agreed.

You never know.

-Wilson Gray

>
>> On 6/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
>>> Like many of my generation, I was first introduced to Louis Jordan's
>>> 1944 hit "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" via the Tom & Jerry
>>> cartoon "Solid Serenade" (1946). (Jordan cowrote the song, his first
>>> million seller, with Bill Austin.) I came across a much earlier
>>> example
>>> of "Is you is or is you ain't" in a 1921 story by Octavus Roy Cohen,
> a
>>> Jewish writer from South Carolina who wrote humorous black-dialect
>>> fiction:
>>>
>>> -----
>>> "Less Miserable" by Octavus Roy Cohen
>>> _Chicago Tribune_, Sep. 25, 1921, (Magazine) p. 1/3
>>> "What I asks you straight an' plain: Is you gwine loant me them two
>>> dollars, or ain't you?"
>>> "I ain't said I ain't."
>>> "You ain't said you is."
>>> "I ain't said nothin'."
>>> "Well, I asks: Is you is or is you ain't?"
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Cohen wrote a similar exchange in a story the following year:
>>>
>>> -----
>>> "Fifty-Fifty Fifty" by Octavus Roy Cohen
>>> _Chicago Tribune_, Nov. 26, 1922, (Magazine) p. 10/1
>>> "But, Maudlin-- ain't we engage'?"
>>> "I ain't said we ain't."
>>> "But you ain't sayin' we is."
>>> "I ain't sayin' nothin'."
>>> "Well," desperately. "Is we is, or is we ain't?"
>>> -----
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun 15 04:12:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:12:51 -0400
Subject: "Dr. Midnight" cookies
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3jt3ti@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:46 PM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Dr. Midnight" cookies
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> DR. MIDNIGHT + CHOCOLATE--305 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits
> ...
> I went to Taylor's on Chambers Street and had some of its strawberry
> iced tea, supposedly one of the city's best thirst quenchers for a hot
> day, not that anyone would know it's a hot day...
> ...
> Taylor's is also a bakery and it had Monkey Bread and Dr. Midnight
> cookies. Does anybody know the good doctor? Is he from California?
> Great chocolate cookie, even before midnight.

There used to be a superhero by that name in the 'Forties. He was a
blind doctor - MD? PhD? I no longer remember - who, under circumstances
that I no longer recall, became Dr. Midnight, whose motto, emblazoned
on a shield on the front of his costume, was "TURN ABOUT IS FAIR PLAY."
He appeared in Superman-DC Publications funnybooks.

-Wilson Gray

> ...
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)
> ...
> Chocolate Lovers
> ... rahul.net>... Dr. Midnight - Chocolate Chocolate Chip & Brownie
> Cookie Pacific
> Cookie Company in Santa Cruz, Ca. Death By Chocolate ...
> alt.gothic - Aug 30 1996, 10:42 am by Canticle - 2 messages - 2 authors
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE)
> ...
> Cookie Varieties
> Dr. Midnight A chocolate lovers dream. Guittard semi-sweet chocolate,
> ... A "cool"
> variation on Dr. Midnight - we replace the chocolate chips with green
> ...
> www.sendacake.com/Cookies/cookievarieties.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar
> pages
> ...
> Monterey
> Double Chocolate Orange Uniced Sponge White Iced Yellow. Variety Cake
> Asst. - 4/9"
> ... Dr. Midnight; Lemon Drop; Oatmeal Raisin; or Peanut ...
> www.sierrameat.com/bakery.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
> ...
> Sendacake.com Secure Ordering Page
> ... When they say "Just gimme some cookies" Standard Cookie Assortment
> (Oatmeal Raisin,
> Peanut Butter, Lemon Drop, Dr. Midnight, Chocolate Chip). ...
> https://secure-02.portline.com/ sendacake/order.cfm?pid=807402 - 39k -
> Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
> ...
> Talk Chocolate To Me Gift Basket!
> Chip, Dr. Midnight). Talk Chocolate To Me Gift Basket! ... Standard,
> AlmondJoe,
> Cahootz, ChocolateChip, Dr. Midnight, Chocolate Chip w/ Walnuts,
> LemonDrop, ...
> www.givechocolate.com/tachtomegiba.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun 15 04:25:30 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:25:30 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3jjbgp@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 9:03 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       paulzjoh 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> So what is Johnie Mathis?

Do you mean, is he a black man who sings like a white man? No more so
than Nat Cole was, I'd say.

-Wilson Gray

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
>>> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Wilson writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>> FWIW, Ray Sharpe, OTOH, struck me as a black man who sang like a
>>> white
>>> man.
>>>  <<<<<
>>>
>>> How 'bout Mose Allison?
>>
>> As a black man who sings like a white man? I didn't realize that he
>> was
>> black, though I have no problem accepting that he is, by virtue of the
>> one-drop rule. If that rule was dropped [no pun intended], I'd find
>> myself in a different "race" from some of my cousins and from my late
>> grandparents.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>>
>>> -- Mark
>>> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>>>
>>
>

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 15 06:17:10 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:17:10 -0400
Subject: "Football is a collision sport" (1963)
Message-ID: 

I had posted 1965, but the same guy (and NOT Vince Lombardi).
...
...
...
Two Votes for the Single Life
AL WOLF. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 5, 1963. p. A2 (1 page) :
Michigan State football coach Duffy Daugherty says, "Football is not a contact sport; it's a collision sport. Dancing is a good example of a contact sport."
...
...

 The NewsTuesday, October 08, 1963 Frederick, Maryland
...Michigan State's football coach. a COLLISION SPORT. Dancing is a good..

Pg. 8, col. 3:
"Football is not a contact sport," says Duffy Daugherty, Michigan State's football coach. "It's a collision sport. Dancing is a good example of a contact sport."

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 15 07:17:08 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:17:08 -0400
Subject: Afghanistanism (1955)
Message-ID: 

AFGHANISTANISM
...
Village Voice, June 15-21, 2005, Press Clips by Sydney H. Schanberg, pg. 30, col. 3:
In American journalism, the phenomenon of not covering your own backyard too aggressively is sardonically called "Afghanistanism."
...
...
It's often said that Anthony Lukas coined this in 1974, but that's way off.
...
...
http://www.umich.edu/~newsbias/geography.html

In 1974, the term "Afghanistanism" was given its current meaning by Anthony Lukas, a reporter for the New York Times. By this term, Lukas meant that writers felt that news about something happening far away was less important, and that as such the media coverage was likely to be more biased of such articles.
...
...
(OED)
Afghanistanism
Preoccupation (esp. of journalists) with events far distant, as a diversion from controversial issues at home (see quots.).

1961 H. B. JACKSON Mass Communications Dict. 6 Afghanistanism, a criticism leveled against newspaper editors for avoiding community causes and issues and for advocating causes and issues far enough away to remain unchallenged by unoriented readers. 1971 Observer 12 Sept. 7/4 The ?radical chic? find indignation easier about injustices in far-away America or Russia than those in our own midst: I believe this syndrome is called Afghanistanism. 1976 Maclean's Mag. 28 June 52 Afghanistanism..is a malady that encourages pontification on problems far distant while conveniently ignoring the home front. 1980 National Jrnl. (U.S.) XII. IV. 153 In 1980,..with events in Afghanistan applying with deadly relevance to vital U.S. interests, President Carter has successfully contrived to give the practice of ?Afghanistanism? a totally opposite meaning. 1982 Business Week 14 June 15/1 Critics once scoffed that certain segments of the U.S. press suffered from ?Afghanistanism?... The malady..now deserves another name.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Light in the Ivory Tower
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Oct 13, 1955. p. 14 (1 page) :
The editorial writers meeting here will not confine themselves to self-critcism; they will make a brief study of the Supreme Court and hear discussions on foreign policy and atomic warfare. But their knives will be especially whetted to dissect such editorial sins as Afghanistanism (in which the writer finds it safer to lambaste a foreign despot than to tackle a controversial issue);...
(National Conference of Editorial Writers--ed.)
...
...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MISC.
...
GREATEST THING SINCE...
"Finally I find irritating the tone of dismissal used when referring to our Manhattanville residents and the obvious delight at Columbia plans as if they were the greatest thing since dry socks."--Village Voice, pg. 9, col. 1.
...
MANZANA PRINCIPAL
"Manzana Principal" seems to have suddenly crept into the Wikipedia page for "the Big Apple." I'm now on a number of Wikipedia pages, including a new page for "TAD" Dorgan. My pay is zilch. I don't contribute to Wikipedia to work for free, but maybe someone can tell them that "Manzana Principal" has not a single historical citation to its credit.
...
AMAZON & REVIEWS
I wrote the first Amazon review for the Encyclopedia of New York State. I've done this before, and they really hate it when the first review is negative, or ANY review is negative. In the past, they've tried to withhold my review, or to run a fake favorable review right alongside it specifically to counter what I've said. They've also clicked on the "Was this review helpful--NO" button immediately, and that happened again. Six people read the review and said it was not helpful, within, like, one hour? Well, Amazon is there to sell books, not to get the facts straight in them.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 12:17:45 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:17:45 -0700
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

I am a white man who sings like a cave man.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 14, 2005, at 9:03 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: paulzjoh

> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> So what is Johnie Mathis?

Do you mean, is he a black man who sings like a white man? No more so
than Nat Cole was, I'd say.

-Wilson Gray

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>
>
>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
>>> Subject: Re: "Sock It to Me"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Wilson writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>> FWIW, Ray Sharpe, OTOH, struck me as a black man who sang like a
>>> white
>>> man.
>>> <<<<<
>>>
>>> How 'bout Mose Allison?
>>
>> As a black man who sings like a white man? I didn't realize that he
>> was
>> black, though I have no problem accepting that he is, by virtue of the
>> one-drop rule. If that rule was dropped [no pun intended], I'd find
>> myself in a different "race" from some of my cousins and from my late
>> grandparents.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>>
>>> -- Mark
>>> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>>>
>>
>

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 12:20:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:20:11 -0700
Subject: memorable bumper sticker
Message-ID: 

Bumper sticker yesterday :

Don't Believe Everything You
              Think

JL

---------------------------------
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From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Jun 15 12:34:56 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:34:56 +0100
Subject: T-shirt slogan
Message-ID: 

>From Annie Proulx's 'That Old Ace in the Hole', 2002 [2204, 254]:

He had changed into a tight black T-shirt stamped with the words "If I Gave
a Shit You'd Be the first One I'd Give It To."

--Neil Crawford

From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Wed Jun 15 12:50:05 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:50:05 -0400
Subject: memorable bumper sticker
Message-ID: 

Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>Bumper sticker yesterday :
>
>Don't Believe Everything You
>              Think

Should have a sequel-sticker:

'Wish I'd disbelieved of that!'

Michael McKernan

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 13:17:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:17:34 -0700
Subject: ufo, etc.
Message-ID: 

The USAF evidently also used the official acronym "UFOB" for a time. Apparently it postdated the coinage of "UFO."

The Air Force presumably felt that "UFO" had become too popular a term and needed to be replaced by new jargon.

Here is an official document from 1954 that employs "UFOB" :

http://www.cufon.org/cufon/afr200-2.htm

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: ufo, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By free association: here is a little spelling error which really and truly
appeared repeatedly in the French-language press around 1970 (although this
example is copied from the Web):

>

I don't know whether there's any significance to this. Does it qualify as
an eggcorn? (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 13:22:27 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:22:27 -0700
Subject: chrononaut
Message-ID: 

I recall "chrononaut" (time traveler) from the early '80s, if not a wee bit earlier (I should probably go back there and check it out).

Twenty-five years later, Google reveals about 10,000 hits.

JL

---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Jun 15 13:23:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:23:47 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3ba7nc@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Exactly. The very same guy. Carolina Israelite was the name of his
newspaper.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 11, 2005, at 10:53 PM, sagehen wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       sagehen 
> Subject:      Re: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Did Mr. Cohen live long enough to become familiar with the "Carolina
>> Israelite"?
>
>>> -Wilson Gray
> ~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>
> Was that Harry Golden (/For 2? Plain/)?  I had forgotten that
> soubriquet.
> A. Murie
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 13:39:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:39:25 -0700
Subject: She was only...
Message-ID: 

On p. 474, B. A. Botkin's well-known _A Treasury of American Folklore_ (1944) reprints sixteen "daughters" from _Laughter for the Millions_, by Louis Shomer (N.Y.: Louellen, 1936).

For habitues only.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: She was only...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 24 May 2005 18:08:23 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
wrote:

>This was a popular gag in syndicated humor columns in the '20s,
>particularly "Scoop's Colyum" (the Danville Bee cites below). The
>earliest version I can find is the "moonshiner's daughter" one, from
>1922.
>
>-----
>Chicago Tribune, Aug 7, 1922, p. 8
>Under separate cover I am sending you my latest poem of passion, "She's
>Only a Moonshiner's Daughter But Oh I Love Her Still."
>-----

And jokes relying on "I love her still" go back much earlier than that:

-----
Atlanta Constitution, Nov 17, 1875, p. 4
"My native city has treated me badly," said a drunken vagabond, "but I
love her still." "Probably," replied a gentleman, "her still is all that
you do love."
-----

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
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 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun 15 14:14:37 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:14:37 -0400
Subject: chrononaut
In-Reply-To: <20050615132227.8369.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 06:22:27AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> I recall "chrononaut" (time traveler) from the early '80s, if not a wee bit earlier (I should probably go back there and check it out).
>
> Twenty-five years later, Google reveals about 10,000 hits.

The OED SF site has 1974, from Philip K. Dick:

http://www.jessesword.com/sf/view/338

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 15:05:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:05:56 -0700
Subject: chrononaut
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Jesse.  Now I don't have to gas up the machine.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: Re: chrononaut
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 06:22:27AM -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> I recall "chrononaut" (time traveler) from the early '80s, if not a wee bit earlier (I should probably go back there and check it out).
>
> Twenty-five years later, Google reveals about 10,000 hits.

The OED SF site has 1974, from Philip K. Dick:

http://www.jessesword.com/sf/view/338

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 15:08:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:08:35 -0700
Subject: oink!
Message-ID: 

A few years before OED's 1935 ex.:

1927 E. O. Harbin _Parodology_ (Nashville: Cokesbury Press, 1927) 97 / 2   Pigs (oink-oink).

The context is a version of the song "Old MacDonald."

JL

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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 15 15:53:01 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:53:01 -0400
Subject: On the dangers of crying wol(o)f
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D76DF32@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

At 12:48 PM -0500 6/14/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>  > -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
>>  Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:39 PM
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  Subject: On the dangers of crying wol(o)f
>At the risk of taking an already off-topic discussion further into the
>weeds, why should I be compelled, under threat of law, to pay for
>television and radio that I don't necessarily support?  Seems to be a
>free speech issue here that is often ignored.
>
Well, I'm not sure what the point is as to the free speech issue, and
I do acknowledge we're both swinging dangerously in an off-topic
direction, but I will take the opportunity to just

(i) advert to an editorial in today's NYT, posted at
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/opinion/15wed2.html
[excerpt:  "Republican lawmakers insist that the budget cuts are only
one of many sacrifices required for fiscal discipline - a truly
laughable contention from a Congress that has broken all records for
deficit spending and borrowing. The pending highway bill alone has
3,800 pet projects (cue Porky Pig, not Oscar the Grouch). These
include $2 billion-plus for two ludicrous "bridges to nowhere" in
rural Alaska, where, incidentally, station officials say public
broadcasting may fade from the air unless the Senate blocks the
House's spiteful cuts."]

(ii) note that it's a question of priorities--myself, I'd prefer
funding an effort to ease the slaughter in Darfur than funding public
broadcasting, prefer funding public broadcasting to funding billion
dollar bridges to nowhere (and similar "pork"), and prefer funding
the latter to funding the rather more costly Iraq war, but I don't
seem to have a line-item veto to delete various federal expenditures
that "I don't necessarily support", and I don't believe Tom DeLay and
his friends have earned one.

(iii) attempt to render this all slightly less OT by observing that
public television and radio support and make available to the public,
among other things, documentaries on American dialects and endangered
languages, programs on the nature of language, and such--in other
words, linguistics and dialectology.  More broadly, it might be
argued that maintaining a strong public broadcasting service is at
least as essential to a civilized community as the manufacture and
deployment of weaponry, sex education programs that mention only
abstinence, public school science courses that give equal time to
science and religion, policies toward energy and the environment that
are dictated by energy corporations,...  I won't argue that here,
however.

Larry

Larry

From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 15 16:14:40 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:14:40 -0400
Subject: On the dangers of crying wol(o)f
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

larry,

Please do not cause my processor to overextend itself by using "OT"
in a list that has linguist readers. I sure I spent an extra 568.987
mss recovering the bizarre meaning "off-topic."

dInIs

Larry took us down the garden path by writing:

...(iii) attempt to render this all slightly less OT by observing that
public television and radio support and make available...

Larry

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 15 17:29:36 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:29:36 -0500
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
Message-ID: 

I vaguely recall from the news a few (ten??) years back a story about a
small rural town which was lobbying for a new prison to be built,
because of the jobs it would bring.  Someone (a local deejay?), as part
of the lobbying effort, recorded a song and possibly a music video (you
remember those, MTV used to run them) that included the lines:
"Is we is
or is we isn't
gonna get ourselves
a prison?"

>
> >
> >> On 6/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
> >>> Like many of my generation, I was first introduced to Louis
Jordan's
> >>> 1944 hit "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" via the Tom & Jerry
> >>> cartoon "Solid Serenade" (1946). (Jordan cowrote the song, his
first
> >>> million seller, with Bill Austin.) I came across a much earlier
> >>> example of "Is you is or is you ain't" in a 1921 story by Octavus
> >>> Roy Cohen, a
> >>> Jewish writer from South Carolina who wrote humorous black-dialect
> >>> fiction:
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> "Less Miserable" by Octavus Roy Cohen _Chicago Tribune_, Sep. 25,
> >>> 1921, (Magazine) p. 1/3 "What I asks you straight an'
> plain: Is you
> >>> gwine loant me them two dollars, or ain't you?"
> >>> "I ain't said I ain't."
> >>> "You ain't said you is."
> >>> "I ain't said nothin'."
> >>> "Well, I asks: Is you is or is you ain't?"
> >>> -----
> >>>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 15 18:27:32 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:27:32 -0700
Subject: more of What is this?
In-Reply-To: <006001c5713e$b024a5f0$81eef804@Baragona>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 14, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Alan Baragona wrote:

> Sunday's Doonesbury has a fine example of these blended cliches, or
> whatever they're going to be called, among a catalogue of Bushisms.
>
> "Free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no
> conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." (Sept. 17, 2004)

looks like a substitution blend, with the "whim" of "at a whim"
substituting for the "drop" of "at the drop of a hat".

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 15 18:43:29 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:43:29 -0700
Subject: embarras d'eggcorn
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 12, 2005, at 7:15 PM, Larry Horn quoted:

> Thanks for the saga advise.  I will take you words to treatment with
> me tomorrow.  I'm sure it will be a roll-a-coaster, but I don't
> intend to let it throw me off.

now added to the eggcorn database, with credit to larry.

arnold

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 15 19:50:09 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:50:09 EDT
Subject: Parabuilding & the Hearst Building "Lava Lamp"
Message-ID: 

PARABUILDING--449 Google hits
PARABUILDINGS--34 Google hits
...
I was just looking into "Lava Lamp," the nickname of the new Hearst  Building 
at 57th Street and Eighth Avenue. Hearst abandoned his great plans  during 
the Depression, but now a "lava lamp" is rising over the 1930s skirt of a  
building.
...
"Parabuilding" came up. This is not in the OED revision and is another  
example of why I get paid the big bucks.
...
...
OT: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK STATE & ADS MEMBERS--George Thompson's  work on 
"baseball" is mentioned in that entry. Allen Walker Read's work on  "O.K." is 
mentioned under Martin Van Buren. Neither was credited or paid.
...
OT: RIGGIES--A Daily News article on Factiva claims that a NYC restaurant  
has been serving "riggies" (rigatoni) since it opened in 1992.
...
...
...
_http://www.digitalmediatree.com/tommoody/?23914_ 
(http://www.digitalmediatree.com/tommoody/?23914) 
UPDATE: I want to be as clear as I can about why I find this design  
ludicrous. I'm not opposed to "_parabuildings_ 
(http://www.digitalmediatree.com/schwarz/?23934) "--Herbert Muschamp's intellectually  dishonest term for add-ons 
usually motivated by greed or vanity, but sometimes  just to pay the 
mortgage--nor am I some Prince Charles purist who hates  Modernist-style architecture. The 
Hearst building is like mixing stripes and  plaids though. Not only is the 
combination of building styles jarring and ugly,  the Modernist top is a sham. 
The "Fuller-esque" structure serves no practical  purpose, it's just 
modern-looking cladding over your standard post-and-lintel  box.

- tom moody 11-12-2003 1:09 pm [_link_ 
(http://www.digitalmediatree.com/tommoody/?23914) ] [_1 comment_ 
(http://www.digitalmediatree.com/tommoody/comment/23914/) ] 

...
...
_http://www.digitalmediatree.com/schwarz/?23934_ 
(http://www.digitalmediatree.com/schwarz/?23934) 
"I call this type of design p_arabuildin_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/talkinaboutarchitecture/message/2716) g : it is the modern tick on the  postmodern 
host. New York examples include the Palace Hotel, a modern shaft that  towers 
above the historic Vuillard Houses on Madison Avenue and 51st Street.  
Typically, as at the Palace, the parabuilding is designed as a discreet  background 
to the existing host. Not at Soldier Field. Here modernity erupts  with the 
jubilance of a prodigal."
...
New York Times, September, 30 2003  by Herbert Muschamp 
...
"Lord _Foster_ (http://www.fosterandpartners.com/internetsite/) 's design is 
a p_arabuildin_ (http://hellskitchen.net/develop/index.html?x=29) g: a new 
addition that transforms the  character of an existing structure. The host 
building in this case is Hearst's  present home at 959 Eighth Avenue, between 56th 
and 57th Streets. The  parabuilding is a faceted tower of steel and glass that 
rises 42 stories above  the host. Herein lies a historical curiosity. The 
existing building, completed  in 1928, was originally designed as the base of a 
taller structure."  
...
New York Times, October 30, 2001 by Herbert Muschamp 
...
"The  p_arabuildin_ 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/20/arts/20NOTE.html?ex=1069131600&en=231074916dc196b0&ei=5070) g a new addition to an older structure,  
continues to entrench itself as a vibrantly contemporary architectural type. 
The  Brooklyn Museum of Art has unveiled the genre's most recent example: a  
monumental main entrance for the museum's Eastern Parkway facade."  
...
New York Times, September, 20 2000 by Herbert Muschamp
...
"The  host building for Gwathmey Siegel?s p_arabuildin_ 
(http://www.arcspace.com/kk_ann/2003_03/) g design for the Mid-Manhattan Library is  the former 
Arnold Constable building which is owned by The New York Public  Library. The 
expansion will add an additional eight floors and 117,000 square  feet for 
library service to the existing 139,000 square foot building. Gwathmey  Siegel & 
Associates have also designed the new United States Mission to the  United 
Nations;  a concrete tower with a cylindrical core of shingled zinc.  The windows 
are narrow slits that become more closely spaced and numerous as the  tower 
rises from base to summit and..." 
...
-_arcs_ (http://www.arcspace.com/Welcome.html) pace
...
"Lord Foster, 65, has ample  experience designing around _historic _ 
(http://www.wirednewyork.com/real_estate/hearst_magazine_building/default.htm) 
buildings. His much-acclaimed addition to the  Reichstag in Berlin, featuring a 
latticed glass dome, has become a symbol of the  new unified Germany. For a newly 
unveiled renovation of the British Museum, he  designed a glass-covered 
courtyard that architecture critic Paul Goldberger,  writing in The New Yorker, 
called "stunningly beautiful." 
...
(_discussion_ 
(http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/printpage.cgi?forum=4&topic=803) )
-wirednewyork
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
_Soldier Field Renovation Brings Out Boo-Birds_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.chicago-bears/browse_thread/thread/4a7d51f903bd
a487/6cd0f8e17ed5dbc6?q=parabuildings&rnum=1&hl=en#6cd0f8e17ed5dbc6)   
... They are known as parabuildings, and some, like an airy  new entrance for
the Brooklyn Museum of Art, have been favorably received.  ...   
_alt.sports.football.pro.chicago-bears_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.chicago-bears?hl=en)  - Jun 17  2003, 7:27 am by 
Thomas R. Shannon - 1 message - 1 author 
...
_Soldier Field Wins Prestigious Honor_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.chicago-bears/browse_thread/thread/14060f6bde7627a2/0829
5a7163929b06?q=parabuilding&rnum=1&hl=en#08295a7163929b06)   
... the new stadium's design. I call this type of design  parabuilding: it is
the modern tick on the postmodern host. New York  examples ...   
_alt.sports.football.pro.chicago-bears_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.chicago-bears?hl=en)  - Jan 27  2004, 10:03 pm by 
TwinCityBear - 21 messages - 14 authors 
...
...
(GOOGLE)

_Wrapping up  New York Trip...._ (http://www.arcspace.com/kk_ann/2003_03/) 
The parabuilding, a faceted  tower of steel and glass that rises 42 stories 
above the
... The host  building for Gwathmey Siegel?s parabuilding design for the  ...
www.arcspace.com/kk_ann/2003_03/ - 21k - _Cached_ 
(http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:HEOxdSfXfIIJ:www.arcspace.com/kk_ann/2003_03/+parabuilding&hl=en&ie=U
TF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.arcspace.com/kk_ann/2003_03/)   
...  
_Schwarz comments_ (http://www.digitalmediatree.com/schwarz/comment/23934/) 
... Street.  Typically, as at the Palace, the parabuilding is designed as a  
discreet
background to the existing host. Not at Soldier Field. ...  
www.digitalmediatree.com/schwarz/comment/23934/ - 11k -  Supplemental Result 
- _Cached_ 
(http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:09R3S-iIazwJ:www.digitalmediatree.com/schwarz/comment/23934/+parabuilding&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.digital
mediatree.com/schwarz/comment/23934/)   
...  
_Hearst Corporation - The Hearst Tower Project_ 
(http://www.hearstcorp.com/tower/news/011030.html) 
Lord Foster's design is a parabuilding: a new addition that  transforms the 
...
The parabuilding is a faceted tower of steel  and glass that rises 42 stories 
...
www.hearstcorp.com/tower/news/011030.html - 19k - _Cached_ 
(http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:uKnJckEFLdIJ:www.hearstcorp.com/tower/news/011030.html+parab
uilding&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.hearstcorp.com/tower/news/011030.html)   
...  
_The New York Times: Premium Archive_ 
(http://www.artsjournal.com/visualarts/redir/20030929-30346.html) 
I  call this type of design parabuilding: it is the modern tick on the  
postmodern
... Typically, as at the Palace, the parabuilding is  designed as a discreet 
...
www.artsjournal.com/visualarts/ redir/20030929-30346.html - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.artsjournal.com/v
isualarts/redir/20030929-30346.html)   
...  
_Hell's Kitchen: Development Issues: Hearst-Lava Lamp  Tower_ 
(http://hellskitchen.net/develop/index.html?x=29) 
... The skyline has been waiting for  this. Lord Foster's design is a 
parabuilding: a
new addition that  transforms the character of an existing structure. ... 
hellskitchen.net/develop/index.html?x=29 - 16k - Supplemental  Result - 
_Cached_ 
(http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:kxY63xGT0F8J:hellskitchen.net/develop/index.html?x=29+parabuilding&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:hellskitchen.net/develop/index.ht
ml?x=29)   

From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Wed Jun 15 20:04:39 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:04:39 -0500
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

 From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2

  "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
benny."

I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
as losing one's temper
(http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm).  What is its
meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 20:07:33 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:07:33 -0700
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

"Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."

HDAS has an illuminating entry.  All households should own at least one copy of the two volumes that have appeared.

JL

Rachel Shuttlesworth  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
Subject: benny?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2

"We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
benny."

I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
as losing one's temper
(http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 20:07:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:07:31 -0700
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

"Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."

HDAS has an illuminating entry.  All households should own at least one copy of the two volumes that have appeared.

JL

Rachel Shuttlesworth  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
Subject: benny?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2

"We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
benny."

I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
as losing one's temper
(http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun 15 20:09:04 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:09:04 -0400
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <42B089D7.7020405@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>
>  "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
> benny."
>
> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
> as losing one's temper
> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm).  What is its
> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?

Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first example
1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From maberry at MYUW.NET  Wed Jun 15 20:10:06 2005
From: maberry at MYUW.NET (Allen Maberry)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:10:06 -0700
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <200506152004.j5FK4f0O006272@mxe4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

"benny"; short for "benefit"
I have heard it many times but don't recall seeing it in print.

allen
maberry at myuw.net

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Rachel Shuttlesworth 
> Subject:      benny?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>
>   "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
> benny."
>
> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
> as losing one's temper
> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm).  What is its
> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?
>
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
> Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
> CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
> University of Alabama Libraries
> Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
> Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
> rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 15 20:10:49 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:10:49 -0500
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

Not an antedate, but an example (sorry, Jesse) . . .

>From a classified ad:
Illinois | Chicago | Daily Herald | 1992-02-12 p. C-2 col 6.
"Client offers good bennies & salary to $20,000."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Rachel Shuttlesworth
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:05 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: benny?
>
>
>  From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258ju
> n15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>
>   "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it
> isn't. We want them to enjoy the food for the food, and then
> to feel that health is a benny."
>
> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and
> Benzedrine. Trying to find other examples of this usage
> online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill, Goodman, etc. I found
> one case of British slang where "benny" is defined as losing
> one's temper
> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm).
> What is its meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added
> benefit" or something else?
>
>

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Jun 15 20:21:31 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:21:31 +0100
Subject: benny/HDAS
In-Reply-To: <200506152007.j5FK7ZGD030844@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

Of course, I am a privileged householder who has both volumes of HDAS, an
indispensable resource of recondite knowledge, meticulously researched (why,
oh why, did RH give up on the most important slang survey in our life
time?).

And now to lower the tone, as some of you who recognise my postings may
expect:

Benny =- condom

"Ed, that thing you put on - will that keep me from having a baby?" -- "The
benny? Sure - unless someone sneaked in here and poked a hole in it."
--Lawrence Sanders, 'The Dream Lover', 1978 [New English Library, London,
1986, 206]

benny = sexually aroused (m)

'The throbbing of the penis I have heard referred to as 'clocky', 'ticky' or
'benny' (obvious references to the ticking of a clock).'
--J.W., 'The Language of mastirbation', in 'The Sex Life Letters (Harold &
Ruth greenwald, eds), Grafton books, London, 1974, 265

--Neil Crawford

on 15/6/05 9:07 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: benny?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> "Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."
>
> HDAS has an illuminating entry.  All households should own at least one copy
> of the two volumes that have appeared.
>
> JL
>
> Rachel Shuttlesworth  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
> Subject: benny?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.st
> ory?page=2
>
> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
> benny."
>
> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
> as losing one's temper
> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?
>
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
> Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
> CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
> University of Alabama Libraries
> Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
> Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
> rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>
>

From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Jun 15 20:26:02 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:26:02 +0100
Subject: benny?/HDAS
In-Reply-To: <200506152007.j5FK7ZGD030844@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 15/6/05 9:07 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: benny?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> "Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."
>
> HDAS has an illuminating entry.  All households should own at least one copy
> of the two volumes that have appeared.
>
> JL
>
OK -- I do know how to spell 'masturbation', but it's post prandial time
over here and my fingers aren't so responsive as normal.

--Neil

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 15 20:47:55 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:47:55 -0500
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

Odd use of the "benzedrine" (I think) sense of "bennies":

Ohio | Elyria | The Chronicle Telegram | 1970-06-21 p. A-5, col 2.
"Combat pay for college lecturers?" by Max Lafferty
"In my younger days, I would have enjoyed a brisk bout of fisticuffs
with the beards-and-bennies bullies who currently infest our colleges
with the benign blessings of our blithering academic authorities."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun 15 20:50:18 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:50:18 -0400
Subject: more of What is this?
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:27:32 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
 wrote:

>On Jun 14, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Alan Baragona wrote:
>
>> Sunday's Doonesbury has a fine example of these blended cliches, or
>> whatever they're going to be called, among a catalogue of Bushisms.
>>
>> "Free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no
>> conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." (Sept. 17, 2004)
>
>looks like a substitution blend, with the "whim" of "at a whim"
>substituting for the "drop" of "at the drop of a hat".

Reminiscent of the idiom blend "on a whim and a prayer", combining "on a
whim" with "on a wing and a prayer". This one is a bit eggcornier because
of the phonetic similarity of /wIm/ and /wIN/. Nonetheless I marked it
questionable in the Eggcorn Database (perhaps there should be an "idiom
blend" category): .

--Ben Zimmer

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 15 21:16:21 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:16:21 -0700
Subject: more of What is this?
In-Reply-To: <50911.69.142.143.59.1118868618.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:27:32 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
>  wrote:
>
>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Alan Baragona wrote:
>>>
>>> "Free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no
>>> conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." (Sept. 17, 2004)
>>
>> looks like a substitution blend, with the "whim" of "at a whim"
>> substituting for the "drop" of "at the drop of a hat".
>
> Reminiscent of the idiom blend "on a whim and a prayer", combining
> "on a
> whim" with "on a wing and a prayer". This one is a bit eggcornier
> because
> of the phonetic similarity of /wIm/ and /wIN/. Nonetheless I marked it
> questionable in the Eggcorn Database (perhaps there should be an
> "idiom
> blend" category): .

oh no, mr. ben!  let's not expand to idiom blends.  it would be like
being poised on a slippery edge.

arnold

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 15 21:19:51 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:19:51 -0500
Subject: bucket shop, sweat
Message-ID: 

"bucket shop" OED has 1875
sweat [dice game] OED has 1894

"The Dusky Race" New York Times; Mar 2, 1869; pg. 1 col 3.
"They meet at the various bucket-shops about to plan burglaries and
robberies from the person; and when they have succeeded in robbing some
store or some unhappy wayfarer, and have converted their plunder into
money at the "receivers," they go off to the "faro" or to the "sweat"
table to get rid of it, for they are just as inveterate gamblers as
their white light-fingered brethren."

From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun 15 21:36:25 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:36:25 -0400
Subject: benny/HDAS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 16:21, neil wrote:
> Of course, I am a privileged householder who has both volumes of
> HDAS, an indispensable resource of recondite knowledge,
> meticulously researched (why, oh why, did RH give up on the most
> important slang survey in our life time?).

You do realize that Oxford University Press, with the esteemed Dr.
Jonathan Lighter, is completing HDAS, right? Volume III is planned
for 2006, volume IV for 2008.

Grant Barrett
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 21:38:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:38:00 -0700
Subject: benny/HDAS
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the kind words, Neil.  But do you have copies in your car as well?  Red lights, stop signs, and traffic jams afford numerous opportunities to consult and peruse.

As for the Sanders cite with the meaning "condom."  "Benny," as HDAS also observes, was once not uncommon as a slang term for an overcoat (cf. much earlier "Benjamin," a greatcoat).   Thus the transfer to "condom" (cf. syn."raincoat").

JL

neil  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: neil
Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, I am a privileged householder who has both volumes of HDAS, an
indispensable resource of recondite knowledge, meticulously researched (why,
oh why, did RH give up on the most important slang survey in our life
time?).

And now to lower the tone, as some of you who recognise my postings may
expect:

Benny =- condom

"Ed, that thing you put on - will that keep me from having a baby?" -- "The
benny? Sure - unless someone sneaked in here and poked a hole in it."
--Lawrence Sanders, 'The Dream Lover', 1978 [New English Library, London,
1986, 206]

benny = sexually aroused (m)

'The throbbing of the penis I have heard referred to as 'clocky', 'ticky' or
'benny' (obvious references to the ticking of a clock).'
--J.W., 'The Language of mastirbation', in 'The Sex Life Letters (Harold &
Ruth greenwald, eds), Grafton books, London, 1974, 265

--Neil Crawford

on 15/6/05 9:07 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: benny?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> "Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."
>
> HDAS has an illuminating entry. All households should own at least one copy
> of the two volumes that have appeared.
>
> JL
>
> Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
> Subject: benny?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.st
> ory?page=2
>
> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
> benny."
>
> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
> as losing one's temper
> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?
>
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
> Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
> CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
> University of Alabama Libraries
> Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
> Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
> rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>
>

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 15 21:45:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:45:38 -0700
Subject: benny/HDAS
Message-ID: 

I'm gratified that it was Oxford University Press and not some lesser entity that offered successfully to disembarrass Random House of the HDAS project.

JL

Grant Barrett  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Grant Barrett
Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 15, 2005, at 16:21, neil wrote:
> Of course, I am a privileged householder who has both volumes of
> HDAS, an indispensable resource of recondite knowledge,
> meticulously researched (why, oh why, did RH give up on the most
> important slang survey in our life time?).

You do realize that Oxford University Press, with the esteemed Dr.
Jonathan Lighter, is completing HDAS, right? Volume III is planned
for 2006, volume IV for 2008.

Grant Barrett
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Jun 15 21:53:24 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:53:24 -0500
Subject: dummy 'it'
Message-ID: 

Can someone give me the standard line and/or references on the analysis of
"it" in sentences such as:

"Who is it?" in response to a knock on the door
"What is it?" with the meaning of "what's wrong?"

Labov in his classic article on copula deletion and contraction refers to
this as "dummy it" (and of course notes that contraction/deletion is not
permitted in this context). Is this "it" syntactically the same as the dummy
subject in, e.g., "it's raining"? Obviously it's not the same in that
contraction is permitted in the latter case, but I guess I'm asking if
syntactians would label both of these as the same "dummy it". They don't
feel the same to me, but then I'm not a syntactician so I don't put so much
faith in my intuitions.

-Matt Gordon

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Jun 15 21:58:38 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:58:38 -0400
Subject: more of What is this?
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:16:21 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
 wrote:

>On Jun 15, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:27:32 -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 14, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Alan Baragona wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have
>>>> no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." (Sept. 17, 2004)
>>>
>>> looks like a substitution blend, with the "whim" of "at a whim"
>>> substituting for the "drop" of "at the drop of a hat".
>>
>> Reminiscent of the idiom blend "on a whim and a prayer", combining
>> "on a whim" with "on a wing and a prayer". This one is a bit
>> eggcornier because of the phonetic similarity of /wIm/ and /wIN/.
>> Nonetheless I marked it questionable in the Eggcorn Database
>> (perhaps there should be an "idiom blend" category):
>> .
>
>oh no, mr. ben!  let's not expand to idiom blends.  it would be like
>being poised on a slippery edge.

True, including each and every idiom blend would be going above and beyond
the pale.  But there are some eggcornish idiom blends involving
substitutions of phonetically similar elements (e.g. "a flaw in the
ointment"), and it might be useful to categorize them together.

--Ben Zimmer

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 15 22:46:31 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:46:31 -0700
Subject: "longtime partner"
Message-ID: 

from the NYT Science Times of 6/13/05, Denis Overbye's "Found:
Earth's Distant Cousin (About 15 Light-Years Away)", p. D3, on the
discovery of "the smallest planet yet outside the solar system" by a
team including "Dr. Geoffrey Marcy of the University of California,
Berkeley" (the focus of the story), plus "Dr. Paul Butler of the
Carnegie Institution of Washington, Dr. Jack Lissauer of NASA's Ames
Research Center and Dr. Eugenio Rivera of the University of
California, Santa Cruz":

-----
This is the 107th score for Dr. Marcy and his longtime partner, Dr.
Butler.
-----

i'm guessing, from the context, that overbye was referring to a
research partnership, though i would have said "longtime
collaborator".  and i certainly had to think for a moment whether
overbye might be talking about a domestic (but long-distance)
partnership.

arnold

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 16 00:13:21 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:13:21 -0400
Subject: "longtime partner"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 3:46 PM -0700 6/15/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>from the NYT Science Times of 6/13/05, Denis Overbye's "Found:
>Earth's Distant Cousin (About 15 Light-Years Away)", p. D3, on the
>discovery of "the smallest planet yet outside the solar system" by a
>team including "Dr. Geoffrey Marcy of the University of California,
>Berkeley" (the focus of the story), plus "Dr. Paul Butler of the
>Carnegie Institution of Washington, Dr. Jack Lissauer of NASA's Ames
>Research Center and Dr. Eugenio Rivera of the University of
>California, Santa Cruz":
>
>-----
>This is the 107th score for Dr. Marcy and his longtime partner, Dr.
>Butler.
>-----
>
>i'm guessing, from the context, that overbye was referring to a
>research partnership, though i would have said "longtime
>collaborator".  and i certainly had to think for a moment whether
>overbye might be talking about a domestic (but long-distance)
>partnership.
>
Yes, it does read that way, or can, as implausible as that reading is
in the context.  Safire noted a while (or, if you prefer, awhile) ago
the increasing tendency to use "business partner" as a retronym,
where "partner" would have sufficed in the past (on the pattern of
"biological mother").  For the same reason I wouldn't be surprised to
see "longtime research partner" rather than "longtime partner" to
disambiguate references like the one above.

Larry

From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun 16 01:36:35 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:36:35 -0700
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <20050615200904.GA19282@panix.com>
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:09 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: benny?
>
>Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first example
>1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.

"Benny" (also "bennie") is also a Jersey Shore (esp. Monmouth & Ocean
counties) term for a summer tourist, someone from North Jersey. DARE dates
it to 1978-79, but I can attest the term is older, probably several decades
older. The origin is obscure. I know several competing explanations, none
with any firm evidence to support them.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http1950s.://www.wilton.net

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 02:37:36 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:37:36 -0400
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$emc4ch@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower 
> Subject:      Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi
>> -0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>>
>>  "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We
>> want
>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
>> benny."
>>
>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying
>> to
>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is
>> defined
>> as losing one's temper
>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm).  What is its
>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something
>> else?
>
> Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first example
> 1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.

I certainly hope so, since I first heard it in the Army in the
'Fifties. Naturally, there's no documentation, not even a grafitto on
the exterior wall of a consolidated messhall at Fort Devens, MA, about
which source some putz has already complained.

-Wilson Gray

>
> 
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 02:51:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:51:21 -0700
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

Wilson, was this in common use in the army in the '50s?  Could you provide a context or an example of the bennies referred to?

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: benny?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
> Subject: Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi
>> -0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>>
>> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We
>> want
>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
>> benny."
>>
>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying
>> to
>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is
>> defined
>> as losing one's temper
>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something
>> else?
>
> Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first example
> 1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.

I certainly hope so, since I first heard it in the Army in the
'Fifties. Naturally, there's no documentation, not even a grafitto on
the exterior wall of a consolidated messhall at Fort Devens, MA, about
which source some putz has already complained.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 03:03:02 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:03:02 -0400
Subject: dummy 'it'
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$emipug@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 5:53 PM, Matthew Gordon wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Matthew Gordon 
> Subject:      dummy 'it'
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Can someone give me the standard line and/or references on the
> analysis of
> "it" in sentences such as:
>
> "Who is it?" in response to a knock on the door
> "What is it?" with the meaning of "what's wrong?"
>
> Labov in his classic article on copula deletion and contraction refers
> to
> this as "dummy it" (and of course notes that contraction/deletion is
> not
> permitted in this context).

Back in the 'Forties, there was a comic-book character named "McSnurtle
the Turtle." When there was evil going on, McSnurtle doffed his shell
and became the superhero, Mr. Terrific What's It, a kind of parody of
The Flash. That there was something odd about "What's It" was clear to
me even then, though I was only a fourth-grader at a time when
"ungrammatical" referred to the use of "ain't" or the use of multiple
negatives.

-Wilson Gray

>  Is this "it" syntactically the same as the dummy
> subject in, e.g., "it's raining"? Obviously it's not the same in that
> contraction is permitted in the latter case, but I guess I'm asking if
> syntactians would label both of these as the same "dummy it". They
> don't
> feel the same to me, but then I'm not a syntactician so I don't put so
> much
> faith in my intuitions.
>
> -Matt Gordon
>

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun 16 03:11:57 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:11:57 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <20050615040006.39EC0B24F2@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

I asked:
> How 'bout Mose Allison?

Wilson responded:
>>>
As a black man who sings like a white man? I didn't realize that he was
black, though I have no problem accepting that he is, by virtue of the
one-drop rule.
<<<

'tother way round: as a white man who sings like a black man. Well, that's
to my ear, which is rather tin in that range, or at least much less
inexperienced than yours in the range of southern dialects of all colors.

-- Mark

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun 16 03:43:24 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:43:24 -0500
Subject: hack
Message-ID: 

hack -- a prank, particularly technically-oriented, or involved detailed planning (or at least appealing to MIT students)

This sense isn't in the OED or the HDAS.  As near as I can tell, it started as MIT slang.  I tend to think that the computing sense of "hack" evolved from it, but can't prove it.

"Two expelled from dorms" _The Tech_ (MIT, Cambridge, MA) Vol 83, No. 12, May 1 1963, p. 1, col 3 and 4.
online at:  http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_083/TECH_V083_S0157_P001.pdf

"It was brought out in testimony that the four students involved had decided to retaliate to a hack perpetrated by a close friend, not an MIT student."  

and later in the article 

"At the trial, the five, including their friend, stressed that the hack was considered a "joke" by all concerned, and a harmless  one at that."

"Techman chosen for priority mission" _The Tech_ (MIT, Cambridge, MA) Vol 82, No. 11, Apr 25, 1962, p. 8, col  4.
online at:  http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_083/TECH_V083_S0157_P001.pdf
"I figured that if anyone was willing to buy a thirteen-dollar ticket just for a hack, then there just might be a man in a turquoise suit in  the Plaza lobby."

"Is Paul alive? - the morbid details" Dave deBronkart and John Jurewicz, _ The Tech_ (MIT, Cambridge, MA) Vol 89, No. 38, Oct 21, 1969, p. 5, col  1. http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_089/TECH_V089_S0385_P005.pdf
"For the last three years the Beatles have been pulling a monumentally bizarre hack on the world: they have repeatedly indicated that Paul McCartney has been dead since 1966."

_Penn & Teller's How to Play with Your Food_, Penn Jillett and Teller, Villard Books: New York, 1992. p. 110, from the chapter "Pixar's Listerine Hack"
"To computer people, scams, practical jokes, and most anything sneaky and clever are "hacks."  Our computer buddies congratulate us on our "Letterman hacks."  This book could be called "Penn & Teller's Food Hacks." "

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 16 04:51:56 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:51:56 -0400
Subject: Copperhead (1861)
Message-ID: 

http://www.barrypopik.com/article/970/copperhead-civil-war-nickname
...
...
It appears that the OED is a year off on this one. "Copperhead" began with a mail incident (snakes, not anthrax) in April 1861. Clearly, the term was in wide circulation by May 1861. I wouldn't look to see who "coined" the term; rather, it seems to flow directly from the April 1861 incident at the Post Office.

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 04:55:48 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:55:48 -0400
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3ml56q@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 10:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, was this in common use in the army in the '50s?  Could you
> provide a context or an example of the bennies referred to?
>
> JL

Yes, it was in common use. I knew a guy named Benjamin who refused to
let anyone call him "Benny" because he didn't want to have to deal with
all the bad jokes and puns at his expense.

"Bennies" referred referred both to the basic "three hots and a cot and
you don't have to buy no clothes" and to such things as thirty days per
annum of paid leave ("furlough" wasn't used in my day, for some
reason), T[emporary]D[ut]Y," which earned you extra pay for doing your
normal job at someplace other than your home post, longevity pay (an
automatic rise in base pay for every two years of service), proficiency
pay (you had to pass a test to be awarded the grade of P[roficiency
Level] I, but the upgrade to P II was automatic, though you had to pass
another test to reach P III), hardship pay and combat pay for being
stationed in West Berlin, free medical and dental, free flights to
anyplace in the world on a space-available basis on Air Force transport
planes, and space was always available, the Post Exchange, which sold
Rolexes and Burberry, to mention just a couple of brand names, at
give-away prices, cigarettes by the carton at a price so low as to be
inconsequential, and, if you had the right
M[ilitary]O[ccupation]Specialty, swift promotion.

TDY was a favorite benny because, though you were at temporary location
B, you were still under the command of your home post A. This meant
that, once the workday ended, you could do as you pleased, since post B
had no record of your existence except for your name on the duty roster
and the records at post A merely stated that you were on TDY. So, you
didn't have to be present for reveille or bed check or deal with any
pain-in-the-ass duties such as pulling motor stables or burn-bag
detail. It was like being on a paid vacation without using up any of
your leave time.

And, of course, there was the re-enlistment benny: an extra thirty days
of paid leave and a minimum bonus of $1500. If you were, as I was, a
graduate of the Army Language School, a further benny was that you
could go back to the Language School - in my day, easily the poshest
post in the Army for enlisted personnel - and take any language that
you pleased, even the one in which you already held a diploma. On your
original enlistment, the language that you studied was determined by
your placement on the entrance exam.

-Wilson

> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
>> Subject: Re: benny?
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi
>>> -0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>>>
>>> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We
>>> want
>>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is
>>> a
>>> benny."
>>>
>>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying
>>> to
>>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn,
>>> Hill,
>>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is
>>> defined
>>> as losing one's temper
>>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
>>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something
>>> else?
>>
>> Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first
>> example
>> 1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.
>
> I certainly hope so, since I first heard it in the Army in the
> 'Fifties. Naturally, there's no documentation, not even a grafitto on
> the exterior wall of a consolidated messhall at Fort Devens, MA, about
> which source some putz has already complained.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jesse Sheidlower
>> OED
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 16 06:56:33 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:56:33 -0400
Subject: California Roll (1981)
Message-ID: 

News for you; War between the states
Christine Winter. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 23, 1981. p. F2 (1 page) :
...
_A real international exchange_
...
The Japanese have given us sushi, and we're bringing them the California avocado. That seems like a fair enough exchange, but one international restaurateur is going a step further and combining both into one unusual dish. According to Produce News, sushi bars [the traditional sushi is a seasoned rice, fish, and vegetable combination] are really catching on in West Coast restaurants. New Japanese restaurant owner Mike Horikawa, who has several locations in Southern California and quite a few more in Japan, has given sushi a new twist by inventing the California Roll to add to his array of popular dishes. It's a sheet of dried seaweed covered with cooked, cooled, Japanese-style rice, which has been seasoned with rice-wine vinegar, salt, and sugar. The whole thing is turned upside-down so the rice is on the bottom, and a slice of California avocado, bits of cooked, chilled crabmeat, and two slices of cucumber are placed in the center of the seaweed. Then the whole concoction is rolled up, sprinkled iwth sesame seeds, and cut into rounds. This new addition to the age-old sushi recipe is so popular in Southern California that this Americanized version is being introduced in Japanese restaurants, although the avocado still is considered pretty exotic in the Orient.

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 16 07:13:36 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 03:13:36 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Message from Big Apple web site visitor
In-Reply-To: <000401c57241$3b05be40$aaa1fea9@gilbertt>
Message-ID: 

Amazing.
...
For the record, I went to the Manhattan Borough President's office (I had done this a mere 13 years ago, under a different borough president; on the BP's web page, you'll find "Manhattan--The Heart of the Big Apple"), told 'em that last year the Big Apple Fest said that the "Big Apple" comes from whores, and demanded that I be treated like a human being after all these years, and that this year's Big Apple Fest get the story straight, and that they'll tell New Yorkers, and that they'll look for living witnesses and honor the black stablehands.
...
Only in a city like this would I get living witnesses like what I got just now, and NYC will let 'em die, because they're not a "runaway bride" or something like that, and it's not news.
...
Barry Popik
www.barrypopik.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gilbert Tauber 
To: bapopik at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:55:48 +0200
Subject: Message from Big Apple web site visitor

Dear Mr. Popik,

This recollection may interest you:

I worked under Charles Gillett at the New York Convention and Visitors Bureau from 1959 to 1965.  He was then the Bureau?s promotion director.  My job was writing press releases and updating the Bureau?s various tourist brochures.

I think it was early in 1963 that I was meeting with him about some copy for a new brochure.  This was during the run-up to the 1964-65 World?s Fair, and most of the Bureau?s publications carried ?Come to the World?s Fair? or similar slogans in large type.

After our discussion of the brochure draft, I jokingly asked Gillett what slogan we?d use once the World?s Fair was over.  He said, ?Well, Gilbert, if I ever get to run this place, I?m going to start a campaign based on "?and here he gestured with both hands to indicate a banner headline in the air over his desk--?New York:  The Big Apple.?

?The Big Apple,? I asked?  Why?

?Its an old jazz musicians nickname for New York.  They used to call it that because New York is where they?d get the best-paying jobs.  There was even a dance called the Big Apple.?

With that, he stood up, came around to the front of his desk, and skillfully demonstrated several steps.

That was our only conversation on ?The Big Apple? during the time I worked for him.

A few years after I left the Bureau, Charles Gillett did get to run the place, and the rest is history.

Gilbert Tauber
Cologne, Germany

e-mail: gt.avb at t-online.de

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 16 09:11:13 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:11:13 -0400
Subject: Cash Cow (1972); Cal-Mex (1973); Swiss enchilada (1952); Stuffed
 Pizza (1976)
Message-ID: 

Cash Cow
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
The Money Scene; Ex-Minesweeper Skipper Guides Borden Thru Field
Nick Poulos. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 17, 1972. p. D11 (1 page) :
As a result, Marusi told us in an interview, Borden has become a "cash cow" that produces a high return on investment and a high cash flow, providing funds for investment in other areas of the company's business.
...
...
(Earliest Wall Street Journal cite--ed.)
Pillsbury's Plan to Buy Weight Watchers StirsQuestions About Price, Potential for Growth
By JOSEPH M. WINSKI. Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 13, 1975. p. 43 (1 page)
...
...
(OED)
ADDITIONS SERIES 1993
    cash, n.1
    Add:    [3.] [a.] cash cow colloq., (a sector of) a business which provides a steady cash flow, esp. one considered as an attractive take-over target.

  1975 Forbes (N.Y.) 15 Feb. 55/1 For a while, the fire and casualty companies were great *cash cows for their acquirers. 1986 Economist 13 Sept. 75/3 He had called Dairy Farm the company's ?cash cow? and its steady turnover had sustained the group's cash flow through Hong Kong's property slump from 1981 to 1983.
...
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAL-MEX
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
ROUNDABOUT... with Art Ryon
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1964. p. D2 (1 page) :
("Cal-Mex Cafe," previously cited--ed.)
...
Enchiladas--They're Easy on the Budget and Hard to Resist
JEANNE VOLTZ. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 15, 1973. p. K1 (2 pages)
First page, photo caption:
DELUXE MEXICAN-AMERICANO--Enchiladas are arranged in sauce in shallow baking dish, covered with cheese and baked for traditional Cal-Mex fare. Olives top enchiladas.
...
...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SWISS ENCHILADA
...
I don't think that I posted this. I first wrote about it from Sanborn's in Mexico.
...
COOKERY COLLEGE RECIPES OFFERED
MARIAN MANNERS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 6, 1952. p. D8 (1 page):
Delicious dishes given in the collection range all the way from thrifty casseroles and ways to cook ground meat and fish, to the exotic baba au rum, turkey roasted, broiled and country-fried; crystallized grapes and Swiss enchiladas.
...
...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STUFFED PIZZA
...
Letters; Pizzas: So who's No. 1?
Julie Sorensen, Nancy Jane Miller, Victoria M Dunn, Barry Bernsen, et al. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 29, 1976. p. G11 (2 pages)
First page:
For something really different, try Nancy's stuffed pizza in Harwood Heights: two layers of crust with the fixings (sausage, pepperoni, or whatever) between them.
...
Dining out; Three prize pizzas, no matter how they're sliced--or stuffed
Johnrae Earl. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 24, 1977. p. E17 (1 page) :
Chicago, it would seem, always has had its thin-crust pizza and the thick pizza in a pan. But now there's something new, the stuffed pizza.

We want to tell you about some recent wanderings. We went first to Giordano's, 6253 S. California Av., which has been proclaimed the home of CHicago's best stuffed pizza.
(...)
Stuffed pizza, simply put, is a two-crust pie with the usual, or unusual, pizza makings between. We expected this to be too much dough, and were pleasantly surprised to find the top crust virtually melted right in with the stuffing.
...
Dining out; At Nancy's, it's pizza with new pizzazz
Johnrae Earl. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 19, 1977. p. E18 (1 page) :
But it;s not the submarine sandwich that brings most people to Nancy's; it's the stuffed pizza.

For those who haven't tried one, a stuffed pizza is an unusual dish that's 2 inches high and 10 inches in diameter. There are top and bottom crusts, and in between are three cheeses, plus whatever the eater thinks he can eat.
...
Eats; STUFFED PIZZA Pie kind of town, Chicago is--and this is its latest
Judy Hevrdejs. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 16, 1979. p. B1 (2 pages)
First page:
Nancy's, 7309 W. Lawrence, Harwood Heights, 867-4641. According to manager Tom Cirrincione, his father, Biangio, and a partner were one of the first to bring the pleasures of stuffed pizza here about four years ago.
...
Scene; Coming to terms with Midwestern English
Martin Fischer. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 20, 1979. p. A2 (1 page)
...
...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"COINED THE PHRASE"
...
BITS OF NEW YORK LIFE
O O M'INTYRE. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jun 13, 1922. p. 4 (1 page)
Wilson Mizner coined the phrase "hard-boiled." He was speaking of the Rialto.
...
Judge Lyle Dies; Foe of Al Capone; JUDGE LYLE, 82, DIES; WAS FOE OF AL CAPONE
Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 25, 1964. p. 1 (2 pages) :
Judge John H. Lyle, 82, who coined the phrase "public enemies" for hoodlums and who was a judge Al Capone could not buy, died last night in Oak Forest hospital.
...
CARLISLE BARGERON, POLITICAL WRITER, 71
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 24, 1965. p. 46 (1 page) :
He claimed to have coined the phrase "hit-and-run-driver."
...
Gilson Gray, Advertiser, CBS Official
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Apr 24, 1971. p. B6 (1 page)
In 1927, he joined the D'Arcy advertising firm as an account executive, and while there coined the phrase, "The Pause That Refreshes," for the Coca Cola Co.
...
MILES COLEAN DIES; U.S. HOUSING EXPERT; Helped to Found F.H.A. and Coined the Phrase 'Urban Renewal'
By ALFRED E. CLARK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 19, 1980. p. D15 (1 page)

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 16 10:35:33 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:35:33 -0400
Subject: hack
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3EC4@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> hack -- a prank, particularly technically-oriented, or involved detailed
> planning (or at least appealing to MIT students)
>  This sense isn't in the OED or the HDAS.  As near as I can tell, it
> started as MIT slang.  I tend to think that the computing sense of
> "hack" evolved from it, but can't prove it.

There is no doubt in my mind that the computing senses of "hack" and
"hacker" derive from the MIT slang above.  I have previously posted a 1963
citation for "hacker" from the MIT student newspaper.

Fred Shapiro
MIT Class of 1974

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 11:01:19 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:01:19 -0700
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

Thanks much, Wilson. Your message instantly becomes the _locus classicus_ for information on benefit-type "bennies" in 1959.

At one time I was confident that I'd find '50s cites that referred to the GI  Bill, but I never did.
They might be out there somewhere, though.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: benny?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 15, 2005, at 10:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, was this in common use in the army in the '50s? Could you
> provide a context or an example of the bennies referred to?
>
> JL

Yes, it was in common use. I knew a guy named Benjamin who refused to
let anyone call him "Benny" because he didn't want to have to deal with
all the bad jokes and puns at his expense.

"Bennies" referred referred both to the basic "three hots and a cot and
you don't have to buy no clothes" and to such things as thirty days per
annum of paid leave ("furlough" wasn't used in my day, for some
reason), T[emporary]D[ut]Y," which earned you extra pay for doing your
normal job at someplace other than your home post, longevity pay (an
automatic rise in base pay for every two years of service), proficiency
pay (you had to pass a test to be awarded the grade of P[roficiency
Level] I, but the upgrade to P II was automatic, though you had to pass
another test to reach P III), hardship pay and combat pay for being
stationed in West Berlin, free medical and dental, free flights to
anyplace in the world on a space-available basis on Air Force transport
planes, and space was always available, the Post Exchange, which sold
Rolexes and Burberry, to mention just a couple of brand names, at
give-away prices, cigarettes by the carton at a price so low as to be
inconsequential, and, if you had the right
M[ilitary]O[ccupation]Specialty, swift promotion.

TDY was a favorite benny because, though you were at temporary location
B, you were still under the command of your home post A. This meant
that, once the workday ended, you could do as you pleased, since post B
had no record of your existence except for your name on the duty roster
and the records at post A merely stated that you were on TDY. So, you
didn't have to be present for reveille or bed check or deal with any
pain-in-the-ass duties such as pulling motor stables or burn-bag
detail. It was like being on a paid vacation without using up any of
your leave time.

And, of course, there was the re-enlistment benny: an extra thirty days
of paid leave and a minimum bonus of $1500. If you were, as I was, a
graduate of the Army Language School, a further benny was that you
could go back to the Language School - in my day, easily the poshest
post in the Army for enlisted personnel - and take any language that
you pleased, even the one in which you already held a diploma. On your
original enlistment, the language that you studied was determined by
your placement on the entrance exam.

-Wilson

> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
>> Subject: Re: benny?
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi
>>> -0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>>>
>>> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We
>>> want
>>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is
>>> a
>>> benny."
>>>
>>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying
>>> to
>>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn,
>>> Hill,
>>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is
>>> defined
>>> as losing one's temper
>>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
>>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something
>>> else?
>>
>> Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first
>> example
>> 1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.
>
> I certainly hope so, since I first heard it in the Army in the
> 'Fifties. Naturally, there's no documentation, not even a grafitto on
> the exterior wall of a consolidated messhall at Fort Devens, MA, about
> which source some putz has already complained.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jesse Sheidlower
>> OED
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 11:15:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:15:35 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Message from Big Apple web site visitor
Message-ID: 

A colleague of mine is on her way to Beijing U. to lecture on American culture for a few weeks.
Already one of her hosts has asked about the real origin of "The Big Apple," which seems to be a hot topic in the People's Republic. (One shudders to think why....)

I directed her pronto to Barry's site and advised her to eschew all others.

JL

bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Fwd: Message from Big Apple web site visitor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amazing.
...
For the record, I went to the Manhattan Borough President's office (I had done this a mere 13 years ago, under a different borough president; on the BP's web page, you'll find "Manhattan--The Heart of the Big Apple"), told 'em that last year the Big Apple Fest said that the "Big Apple" comes from whores, and demanded that I be treated like a human being after all these years, and that this year's Big Apple Fest get the story straight, and that they'll tell New Yorkers, and that they'll look for living witnesses and honor the black stablehands.
...
Only in a city like this would I get living witnesses like what I got just now, and NYC will let 'em die, because they're not a "runaway bride" or something like that, and it's not news.
...
Barry Popik
www.barrypopik.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gilbert Tauber
To: bapopik at aol.com
Sent: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:55:48 +0200
Subject: Message from Big Apple web site visitor

Dear Mr. Popik,

This recollection may interest you:

I worked under Charles Gillett at the New York Convention and Visitors Bureau from 1959 to 1965. He was then the Bureau?s promotion director. My job was writing press releases and updating the Bureau?s various tourist brochures.

I think it was early in 1963 that I was meeting with him about some copy for a new brochure. This was during the run-up to the 1964-65 World?s Fair, and most of the Bureau?s publications carried ?Come to the World?s Fair? or similar slogans in large type.

After our discussion of the brochure draft, I jokingly asked Gillett what slogan we?d use once the World?s Fair was over. He said, ?Well, Gilbert, if I ever get to run this place, I?m going to start a campaign based on "?and here he gestured with both hands to indicate a banner headline in the air over his desk--?New York: The Big Apple.?

?The Big Apple,? I asked? Why?

?Its an old jazz musicians nickname for New York. They used to call it that because New York is where they?d get the best-paying jobs. There was even a dance called the Big Apple.?

With that, he stood up, came around to the front of his desk, and skillfully demonstrated several steps.

That was our only conversation on ?The Big Apple? during the time I worked for him.

A few years after I left the Bureau, Charles Gillett did get to run the place, and the rest is history.

Gilbert Tauber
Cologne, Germany

e-mail: gt.avb at t-online.de

---------------------------------
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 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun 16 11:36:48 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:36:48 -0400
Subject: memorable bumper sticker
In-Reply-To: <20050616040006.8E15DB2554@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Michael McKernan  sez:
>>>
Should have a sequel-sticker:

'Wish I'd disbelieved of that!'
<<<

"disbelieved OF"? That's new to me. How widespread?

Or am I missing a joke?

mark by hand

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun 16 11:40:49 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:40:49 -0400
Subject: chrononaut
In-Reply-To: <20050616040006.8E15DB2554@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Jonathan Lighter  will haven sayinged:
>>>
I recall "chrononaut" (time traveler) from the early '80s, if not a wee bit
earlier (I should probably go back there and check it out).

Twenty-five years later, Google reveals about 10,000 hits.
<<<

There's a game called "Chrononauts", in which each player takes the role of
a time-traveler trying to change selected historical events in order to
bring about a particular possible reality. I've played it a few times and
rather enjoy it.

mark by hand

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun 16 11:50:42 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:50:42 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <20050616040006.8E15DB2554@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

I wrote to the list & Wilson:
>>>
'tother way round: as a white man who sings like a black man. Well, that's
to my ear, which is rather tin in that range, or at least much less
inexperienced than yours in the range of southern dialects of all colors.
<<<

Make that "much less experienced", and blame writing and revising in a
hurry.

mark by hand

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 12:04:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:04:35 -0700
Subject: "I've served my time in Hell"
Message-ID: 

The Lomax & Lomax text (pp.552-554) came "from C. E. Anson, Wyoming." It consists of four stanzas taken from Camp's 1917 text. (Camp is not cited as author). The final lines in this case are,

Then St. Peter'll tell the angels
How we charged and how we fell;
"Give a front seat to Third Wyoming,
For they've done their hitch in hell."

According to _History of the Wyoming Army National Guard by CW2 John Listman_ [http://www.guardmuster.org/custom/wyoming.asp]

   The First Wyoming experienced a number of reorganizations so that by 1915 its lineage was carried by the 1st and 2nd Separate Battalions, Wyoming Infantry. Both battalions activated during the Mexican border crisis of 1916-17. They served in Deming, New Mexico.

   Upon release from active duty, the two battalions added a third, and was [sic: JL]reorganized as the 3rd Wyoming Infantry. Drafted into Federal service in August 1917 for World War I duty. The Third Wyoming is broken up with elements assigned to three different units within the 41st division.

Upon arrival in France, the 41st Division AEF became the "1st Depot Division," responsible for the training and processing of replacements.

JL

Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
Well, Fred, it's time to turn in the old brain.  I have unearthed my photocopy of Camp's _Mexican Border Ballads_, and not only do I have your word to lean on, I see a note in my personal handwriting saying "Does _not_ contain 'Our Hitch in Hell.'"

I apologize for the bum steer.

The reference to the Third Wyoming should be in the text printed anonymously in Lomax & Lomax, _American Ballads & Folksongs_ (1934), which I haven't been able to dig out yet.  Obviously, this could be a false memory as well, so I'll say no more about it, especially since a 1934 text is unlikely to be of any use to you.

Altogether, this has been a chastening experience.

At least we have the 1917 version, yes?

Jon

Fred Shapiro  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: Re: "I've served my time in Hell"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> "Our Hitch in Hell." The author was Frank B. [Bernard] Camp (1882 -
> ?1967), and the poem appeared in his collection, _Mexican Border
> Ballads_ (Douglas, Ariz.: F. B. Camp, 1916). It was revised and
> reprinted in Camp's _American Soldier Ballads_ (L.A.: G. Rice & Sons,
> 1917). A Google search reveals that it was more than once adapted and
> passed on anonymously.

I have just obtained a photocopy of F. B. Camp, Mexican Border Ballads
(1916). In quickly looking through this I do not see "Our Hitch in Hell"
or anything resembling it in that book, assuming that all the pages were
photocopied properly. Is it possible that the above is mistaken?

Fred

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 12:15:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:15:01 -0700
Subject: chrononaut
Message-ID: 

MIT students held a gala for future time travelers this past May 7.  The idea was to post invitations in the present that would be read by chrononauts of the future, who would then zip back to 2005 for free drinks.

No confirmed time travelers appeared. However, it's not too late!  I'll be there as soon as I do some scheduled maintenance on the ol' time buggy!   Mark, I hope to see you there too!

JL

"Mark A. Mandel"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
Subject: Re: chrononaut
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Lighter will haven sayinged:
>>>
I recall "chrononaut" (time traveler) from the early '80s, if not a wee bit
earlier (I should probably go back there and check it out).

Twenty-five years later, Google reveals about 10,000 hits.
<<<

There's a game called "Chrononauts", in which each player takes the role of
a time-traveler trying to change selected historical events in order to
bring about a particular possible reality. I've played it a few times and
rather enjoy it.

mark by hand

---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 12:35:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:35:44 -0700
Subject: unrehabable
Message-ID: 

_Fox & Friends_ reports that Terri Schiavo's autopsy shows her to have been "unrehabable."  An attorney for the Schindler family agreed that she was "unrehabable."

About 25 hits on Google, 1998 being the year to beat.

JL

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From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun 16 13:23:07 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:23:07 -0700
Subject: hack
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Fred Shapiro
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:36 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: hack
>
>
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
> > hack -- a prank, particularly technically-oriented, or involved detailed
> > planning (or at least appealing to MIT students)
> >  This sense isn't in the OED or the HDAS.  As near as I can tell, it
> > started as MIT slang.  I tend to think that the computing sense of
> > "hack" evolved from it, but can't prove it.
>
> There is no doubt in my mind that the computing senses of "hack" and
> "hacker" derive from the MIT slang above.  I have previously posted a 1963
> citation for "hacker" from the MIT student newspaper.

Here's an MIT cite of the verb from 1955:

"Mr. Eccles requests that anyone working or hacking on the electrical system
turn the power off to avoid fuse blowing." 5 April 1955, TMRC meeting
minutes, found in Onorato, J. (2002). Tech Model Railroad Club of M.I.T.:
the first fifty years. Cambridge, Mass., Tech Model Railroad Club.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun 16 06:08:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:08:44 -0500
Subject: crummies = communists
Message-ID: 

crummies (= communists) -- not in OED

muscovites (=communists) -- not in OED

"Fair Enough" Westbrook Pegler, Los Angeles Times Jun 6, 1941;  pg. 2A col 7.

"I thought you might like to hear how things have been going in the long campaign of the Muscovites, or Commies or Crummies, as they are variously known to the Americans in the newspaper business, to destroy the American Newspaper Guild, which was organized a few years ago as a union of editorial workers for the purpose of improving wages, reducing hours, and protecting us inkstained wrteches from the economic pogroms of the front office."

later in the same article:

red-baiter -- OED has 1950; and 

bleeding heart -- OED has 1958

"The Americans have been on to this for a couple of years, however, and, although a few intellectual bleeding-hearts who would say Joe Stalin was a Communist lest the comrades call them red-baiters have been insisting doggedly that Communism is no issue, nobody is fooled on that point any more."

Two new senses/words, and two antedatings in one article  -- not bad.

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Jun 16 14:10:25 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:10:25 -0400
Subject: memorable bumper sticker
In-Reply-To: <20050616073534.W75098@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

>Michael McKernan  sez:
>>>>
>Should have a sequel-sticker:
>
>'Wish I'd disbelieved of that!'
><<<
>
>"disbelieved OF"? That's new to me. How widespread?
>
>Or am I missing a joke?
>
>mark by hand
~<~<~<~<~<
Um, yes.  Or so it appears.
Don't Believe Everything You Think.
( wish I'd *thought of* that)
Wish I'd Disbelieved of That!
AM

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 16 14:27:57 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:27:57 -0400
Subject: unrehabable
In-Reply-To: <20050616123544.66991.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 5:35 AM -0700 6/16/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>_Fox & Friends_ reports that Terri Schiavo's autopsy shows her to
>have been "unrehabable."  An attorney for the Schindler family
>agreed that she was "unrehabable."
>
>About 25 hits on Google, 1998 being the year to beat.
>
>JL

Plus one for "unrehabbable", which is the way I'd probably have
spelled it on the basis of my usual double-the-consonant-for-stress
algorithm.  (I'd pronounce "(un)rehab(b)able" on the antepenult root,
although "rehab" itself gets primary stress.)  And of course both
residences and people can be (un)rehab(b)able, in slightly different
ways.

L

From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 16 14:30:54 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:30:54 -0400
Subject: Demetaphorication (Achilles heel)
Message-ID: 

Well, I'm not sure *exactly* what to call this, but it seems to fit in
with the eggcorns and mixed metaphors and idioms we've been talking
about. Anyway, during last night's Braves-Rangers (baseball) game on
ESPN, one of the announcers consistently used the phrase "Achilles heel"
in rather concrete references to a player's Achilles *tendon*. (I
believe it was Jeff Brantley, a former player, now doing regular
play-by-play and studio work for ESPN).

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber
faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                            tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                          fax (203) 865-8963

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 16 15:21:46 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:21:46 -0400
Subject: California Roll (1981)
In-Reply-To: <8C74057AA903A9C-86C-1E4FC@MBLK-M37.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 2:56 AM -0400 6/16/05, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>News for you; War between the states
>Christine Winter. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago,
>Ill.: Nov 23, 1981. p. F2 (1 page) :
>...
>_A real international exchange_
>...
>The Japanese have given us sushi, and we're bringing them the
>California avocado. That seems like a fair enough exchange, but one
>international restaurateur is going a step further and combining
>both into one unusual dish. According to Produce News, sushi bars
>[the traditional sushi is a seasoned rice, fish, and vegetable
>combination] are really catching on in West Coast restaurants. New
>Japanese restaurant owner Mike Horikawa, who has several locations
>in Southern California and quite a few more in Japan, has given
>sushi a new twist by inventing the California Roll to add to his
>array of popular dishes. It's a sheet of dried seaweed covered with
>cooked, cooled, Japanese-style rice, which has been seasoned with
>rice-wine vinegar, salt, and sugar. The whole thing is turned
>upside-down so the rice is on the bottom, and a slice of California
>avocado, bits of cooked, chilled crabmeat, and two slices of
>cucumber are placed in the center of the seaweed. Then the whole
>concoction i!
>  s rolled up, sprinkled iwth sesame seeds, and cut into rounds. This
>new addition to the age-old sushi recipe is so popular in Southern
>California that this Americanized version is being introduced in
>Japanese restaurants, although the avocado still is considered
>pretty exotic in the Orient.

Well, at least the avocado in California rolls is still real.  The
"crabmeat" is usually imitation, though (crab-colored pollock or
whatever).  American ingenuity!

L

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 16 16:47:06 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:47:06 -0400
Subject: unrehabable
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:27:57 -0400, Laurence Horn 
wrote:

>At 5:35 AM -0700 6/16/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>_Fox & Friends_ reports that Terri Schiavo's autopsy shows her to
>>have been "unrehabable."  An attorney for the Schindler family
>>agreed that she was "unrehabable."
>>
>>About 25 hits on Google, 1998 being the year to beat.
>
>Plus one for "unrehabbable", which is the way I'd probably have
>spelled it on the basis of my usual double-the-consonant-for-stress
>algorithm.  (I'd pronounce "(un)rehab(b)able" on the antepenult root,
>although "rehab" itself gets primary stress.)  And of course both
>residences and people can be (un)rehab(b)able, in slightly different
>ways.

Without the "un-" prefix, Usenet has "rehabbable" back to 1992.  Some
later variants: "rehab-able" (1994), "rehabable" (1996), and "rehabible"
(1996).  There's also "non-rehab-able" (1999), "non-rehabbable" (2000),
and "nonrehabable" (2004).

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 17:13:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:13:35 -0700
Subject: unrehabable
Message-ID: 

Yeah, but no " *irrehabable. "

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: unrehabable
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:27:57 -0400, Laurence Horn
wrote:

>At 5:35 AM -0700 6/16/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>_Fox & Friends_ reports that Terri Schiavo's autopsy shows her to
>>have been "unrehabable." An attorney for the Schindler family
>>agreed that she was "unrehabable."
>>
>>About 25 hits on Google, 1998 being the year to beat.
>
>Plus one for "unrehabbable", which is the way I'd probably have
>spelled it on the basis of my usual double-the-consonant-for-stress
>algorithm. (I'd pronounce "(un)rehab(b)able" on the antepenult root,
>although "rehab" itself gets primary stress.) And of course both
>residences and people can be (un)rehab(b)able, in slightly different
>ways.

Without the "un-" prefix, Usenet has "rehabbable" back to 1992. Some
later variants: "rehab-able" (1994), "rehabable" (1996), and "rehabible"
(1996). There's also "non-rehab-able" (1999), "non-rehabbable" (2000),
and "nonrehabable" (2004).

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 16 17:55:11 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:55:11 -0400
Subject: crummies = communists
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:08:44 -0500, Mullins, Bill
 wrote:

>"Fair Enough" Westbrook Pegler, Los Angeles Times Jun 6, 1941;  pg. 2A
>col 7.
[...]
>
>red-baiter -- OED has 1950; and
>
>bleeding heart -- OED has 1958
>
>"The Americans have been on to this for a couple of years, however, and,
>although a few intellectual bleeding-hearts who would say Joe Stalin was
>a Communist lest the comrades call them red-baiters have been insisting
>doggedly that Communism is no issue, nobody is fooled on that point any
>more."

OED has "red-baiter" from 1929, actually. And you can find "bleeding
heart" (both nominal and attributive) in earlier columns by Pegler...

* bleeding-heart, attrib.

1937 _Washington Post_ 15 Jan. 9/1 The good Doctor, who is wintering in
the bleeding-heart and hallelujah sector of Southern California, recently
said he would prefer jail to the payment of a fine for contempt of the
United States House of Representatives.

* bleeding heart, n.

1938 _Washington Post_ 8 Jan. X7/1 And I question the humanitarianism of
any professional or semipro bleeding heart who clamors that not a single
person must be allowed to hunger, but would stall the entire legislative
program in a fight to ham through a law intended, at the most optimistic
figure, to save 14 lives a year.

(The latter column was objecting to an anti-lynching bill then before
Congress, one of many that the Senate recently apologized for not
passing.)

--Ben Zimmer

From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Thu Jun 16 19:07:07 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:07:07 -0500
Subject: memorable bumper sticker
Message-ID: 

Mark Mandel wrote:

>Michael McKernan  sez:
>>>>
>Should have a sequel-sticker:
>
>'Wish I'd disbelieved of that!'
><<<
>
>"disbelieved OF"? That's new to me. How widespread?
>
>Or am I missing a joke?

Uh, the joke--a rather feeble attempt at humor--was a play on 'Wish I'd
thought of that,' so I just substituted one word in the original phrase.

No need to sound the prepositional-misuse alarm, unless it escapes and
starts to reproduce itself.

Michael McKernan

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun 16 20:23:00 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:23:00 -0500
Subject: diner museum's list of diner slang
Message-ID: 

 http://www.dinermuseum.org/culture/culture-slang.php

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun 16 20:23:01 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:23:01 -0500
Subject: hack
Message-ID: 

>
> There is no doubt in my mind that the computing senses of
> "hack" and "hacker" derive from the MIT slang above.  I have
> previously posted a 1963 citation for "hacker" from the MIT
> student newspaper.
>
> Fred Shapiro
> MIT Class of 1974

This 1958 page from _The Tech_
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_078/TECH_V078_S0067_P006.pdf

has a basketball player with the nickname "Hacker".  While it may refer
to a hacking in the sense of a slashing or striking at other players,
I'd bet it has the meaning Fred and I have cited, pushing it back five
more years.

Fred mentions his discovery of the first computer context of "hack"
(specifically, "hacker") in 1971 here:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0306B&L=ads-l&P=R5831&
m=24290

We can antedate that somewhat:

http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_088/TECH_V088_S0208_P004.pdf
"Humanities and the science major at MIT" Jim Smith, _The Tech_, Apr 16,
1968, p. 4 col 5.
"The institute should rid itself of the notion that the humanities must
always "relate" to the science majors:  for example, that 17.01 must
"spice itself up" with some mathematics and computer hacking."
(OED has 1976 for computer "hacking")

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 20:37:36 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:37:36 -0400
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3ngf89@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

You're welcome, Jon.

I'm kinda surprised, since, until some date in the 'Fifties that I've
now forgotten, the WWII GI Bill was still in force. There were multi
articles in the paper about the looming deadline. In fact, I myself had
originally tried to "put on the [war]suit" before that date so as to
get those bennies. Unfortunately, I flunked the vision test. However,
on a second try, I was able to beat the vision test and I was enlisted.
But, by that time, the WWII GI Bill had expired. However, the later -
and far inferior, bennies-wise - Vietnam GI Bill was made retroactive
to 1960. So, I was able to take advantage of the later,
better-than-nothing GI Bill with its inferior bennies.

I forgot to mention some real benny pork. When you went on leave, you
didn't merely continue to receive your regular pay, but you were also
reimbursed for the free housing and the three free meals a day that you
would have received, had you not chosen to go on leave. So, you were
paid more money to vacation than you were paid to work. And, if you
went to a place where there was another unit of the Army Security
Agency, then, as a visiting fireman, you could still sleep and eat for
free. Of course, this was not SOP. If you got caught. But no enlisted
man would rat out a fellow EM and the officers and NCO's knew their
troops only as names on a list and not by race, creed, color, or sexual
orientation. Hence, the sudden appearance of two black guys in a
theretofore lily-white unit did not set off any alarms.

[Just heard a guy on TV speaking of "French benefits."]

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 16, 2005, at 7:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Thanks much, Wilson. Your message instantly becomes the _locus
> classicus_ for information on benefit-type "bennies" in 1959.
>
> At one time I was confident that I'd find '50s cites that referred to
> the GI  Bill, but I never did.
> They might be out there somewhere, though.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 10:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: benny?
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Wilson, was this in common use in the army in the '50s? Could you
>> provide a context or an example of the bennies referred to?
>>
>> JL
>
> Yes, it was in common use. I knew a guy named Benjamin who refused to
> let anyone call him "Benny" because he didn't want to have to deal with
> all the bad jokes and puns at his expense.
>
> "Bennies" referred referred both to the basic "three hots and a cot and
> you don't have to buy no clothes" and to such things as thirty days per
> annum of paid leave ("furlough" wasn't used in my day, for some
> reason), T[emporary]D[ut]Y," which earned you extra pay for doing your
> normal job at someplace other than your home post, longevity pay (an
> automatic rise in base pay for every two years of service), proficiency
> pay (you had to pass a test to be awarded the grade of P[roficiency
> Level] I, but the upgrade to P II was automatic, though you had to pass
> another test to reach P III), hardship pay and combat pay for being
> stationed in West Berlin, free medical and dental, free flights to
> anyplace in the world on a space-available basis on Air Force transport
> planes, and space was always available, the Post Exchange, which sold
> Rolexes and Burberry, to mention just a couple of brand names, at
> give-away prices, cigarettes by the carton at a price so low as to be
> inconsequential, and, if you had the right
> M[ilitary]O[ccupation]Specialty, swift promotion.
>
> TDY was a favorite benny because, though you were at temporary location
> B, you were still under the command of your home post A. This meant
> that, once the workday ended, you could do as you pleased, since post B
> had no record of your existence except for your name on the duty roster
> and the records at post A merely stated that you were on TDY. So, you
> didn't have to be present for reveille or bed check or deal with any
> pain-in-the-ass duties such as pulling motor stables or burn-bag
> detail. It was like being on a paid vacation without using up any of
> your leave time.
>
> And, of course, there was the re-enlistment benny: an extra thirty days
> of paid leave and a minimum bonus of $1500. If you were, as I was, a
> graduate of the Army Language School, a further benny was that you
> could go back to the Language School - in my day, easily the poshest
> post in the Army for enlisted personnel - and take any language that
> you pleased, even the one in which you already held a diploma. On your
> original enlistment, the language that you studied was determined by
> your placement on the entrance exam.
>
> -Wilson
>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: benny?
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
>>> Subject: Re: benny?
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>>>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>>>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi
>>>> -0506150258jun15,1,6069459.story?page=2
>>>>
>>>> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>>>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We
>>>> want
>>>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is
>>>> a
>>>> benny."
>>>>
>>>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine.
>>>> Trying
>>>> to
>>>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn,
>>>> Hill,
>>>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is
>>>> defined
>>>> as losing one's temper
>>>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is
>>>> its
>>>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something
>>>> else?
>>>
>>> Yes, it's "benefit". HDAS has this with a Military label, first
>>> example
>>> 1970, though Ben or Bill will now post an example from 1915.
>>
>> I certainly hope so, since I first heard it in the Army in the
>> 'Fifties. Naturally, there's no documentation, not even a grafitto on
>> the exterior wall of a consolidated messhall at Fort Devens, MA, about
>> which source some putz has already complained.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jesse Sheidlower
>>> OED
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Make Yahoo! your home page
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 20:54:06 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:54:06 -0400
Subject: unrehabable
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$eoiic4@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 16, 2005, at 1:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: unrehabable
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yeah, but no " *irrehabable. "
>
> JL

For which I am grateful.

-Wilson

>
> Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: unrehabable
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:27:57 -0400, Laurence Horn
> wrote:
>
>> At 5:35 AM -0700 6/16/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>> _Fox & Friends_ reports that Terri Schiavo's autopsy shows her to
>>> have been "unrehabable." An attorney for the Schindler family
>>> agreed that she was "unrehabable."
>>>
>>> About 25 hits on Google, 1998 being the year to beat.
>>
>> Plus one for "unrehabbable", which is the way I'd probably have
>> spelled it on the basis of my usual double-the-consonant-for-stress
>> algorithm. (I'd pronounce "(un)rehab(b)able" on the antepenult root,
>> although "rehab" itself gets primary stress.) And of course both
>> residences and people can be (un)rehab(b)able, in slightly different
>> ways.
>
> Without the "un-" prefix, Usenet has "rehabbable" back to 1992. Some
> later variants: "rehab-able" (1994), "rehabable" (1996), and
> "rehabible"
> (1996). There's also "non-rehab-able" (1999), "non-rehabbable" (2000),
> and "nonrehabable" (2004).
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Jun 16 21:01:02 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:01:02 -0400
Subject: benny?
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:37:36 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>[Just heard a guy on TV speaking of "French benefits."]

Was it a FedEx commercial?

See the Eggcorn Database: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/137/french/

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 21:58:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:58:57 -0700
Subject: new mytho-ety-acronym
Message-ID: 

The reason for the enduring application of the word "hack" to prison guards (OK, OK< corrections officers) is not known, but it probably isn't for the reason accepted by "Dohmnuill" at UrbanDictionary.com last Dec. 30:

Hack . . .
As an acronymn for Horses Ass Carrying Keys. Prison slang referring to a prison guard.
Put your pig sticker away. The HACK is coming!

JL

---------------------------------
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 Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 22:02:46 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:02:46 -0400
Subject: "I've served my time in Hell"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3nkksq@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 16, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "I've served my time in Hell"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The Lomax & Lomax text (pp.552-554) came "from C. E. Anson, Wyoming."
> It consists of four stanzas taken from Camp's 1917 text. (Camp is not
> cited as author). The final lines in this case are,
>
> Then St. Peter'll tell the angels
> How we charged and how we fell;
> "Give a front seat to Third Wyoming,
> For they've done their hitch in hell."
>
> According to _History of the Wyoming Army National Guard by CW2 John
> Listman_ [http://www.guardmuster.org/custom/wyoming.asp]
>
>
>    The First Wyoming experienced a number of reorganizations so that
> by 1915 its lineage was carried by the 1st and 2nd Separate
> Battalions, Wyoming Infantry. Both battalions activated during the
> Mexican border crisis of 1916-17. They served in Deming, New Mexico.
>
>
>
>    Upon release from active duty, the two battalions added a third,
> and was [sic: JL]reorganized as the 3rd Wyoming Infantry. Drafted into
> Federal service in August 1917 for World War I duty. The Third Wyoming
> is broken up with elements assigned to three different units within
> the 41st division.
>
> Upon arrival in France, the 41st Division AEF became the "1st Depot
> Division," responsible for the training and processing of
> replacements.
>
> JL
>

FWIW, the military jargon here, "Separate Battalions" and "Depot
Division," is new to me. Google yields about 4800
hits, not all of them relevant to the military. For "Depot Division,"
there are 941 hits, again, not all of them relevant to the military.
But, even from those few hits, it seems clear that "depot division
(replacement)" is the correct military term for what I knew only as a
"repple-depple."

As far as I can gather, "separate" appears to be a technical term
related to the TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment) of a unit,
such that units as small as a company can be separate in whatever way
is entailed by the term.

-Wilson Gray

> Jonathan Lighter  wrote:
> Well, Fred, it's time to turn in the old brain.  I have unearthed my
> photocopy of Camp's _Mexican Border Ballads_, and not only do I have
> your word to lean on, I see a note in my personal handwriting saying
> "Does _not_ contain 'Our Hitch in Hell.'"
>
> I apologize for the bum steer.
>
> The reference to the Third Wyoming should be in the text printed
> anonymously in Lomax & Lomax, _American Ballads & Folksongs_ (1934),
> which I haven't been able to dig out yet.  Obviously, this could be a
> false memory as well, so I'll say no more about it, especially since a
> 1934 text is unlikely to be of any use to you.
>
> Altogether, this has been a chastening experience.
>
> At least we have the 1917 version, yes?
>
> Jon
>
> Fred Shapiro  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Fred Shapiro
> Subject: Re: "I've served my time in Hell"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> "Our Hitch in Hell." The author was Frank B. [Bernard] Camp (1882 -
>> ?1967), and the poem appeared in his collection, _Mexican Border
>> Ballads_ (Douglas, Ariz.: F. B. Camp, 1916). It was revised and
>> reprinted in Camp's _American Soldier Ballads_ (L.A.: G. Rice & Sons,
>> 1917). A Google search reveals that it was more than once adapted and
>> passed on anonymously.
>
> I have just obtained a photocopy of F. B. Camp, Mexican Border Ballads
> (1916). In quickly looking through this I do not see "Our Hitch in
> Hell"
> or anything resembling it in that book, assuming that all the pages
> were
> photocopied properly. Is it possible that the above is mistaken?
>
> Fred
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> Fred R. Shapiro Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 22:12:52 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:12:52 -0400
Subject: benny?
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3osg8v@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 16, 2005, at 5:01 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: benny?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:37:36 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>
>> [Just heard a guy on TV speaking of "French benefits."]
>
> Was it a FedEx commercial?
>
> See the Eggcorn Database:
> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/137/french/
>
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

Nah. It was just some random, real-life guy. I know that "French
benefits" is nothing new. That's why I didn't bother to give it its own
posting. It's just that I actually heard it, as opposed to merely
reading about it.

-Wilson

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 22:23:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:23:21 -0400
Subject: new mytho-ety-acronym
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3p189n@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 16, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      new mytho-ety-acronym
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The reason for the enduring application of the word "hack" to prison
> guards (OK, OK< corrections officers) is not known, but it probably
> isn't for the reason accepted by "Dohmnuill" at UrbanDictionary.com
> last Dec. 30:
>
> Hack . . .
> As an acronymn for Horses Ass Carrying Keys. Prison slang referring to
> a prison guard.
> Put your pig sticker away. The HACK is coming!
>
> JL
>

When I was in the Army, a fellow G.I. took a lot of teasing for
misspelling his own name: "Reynoods" instead of "Reynolds." Now, I
finally see another instance of this rare phenomenon. "Dohmnuill"
should be spelled "Domhnuill."

-Wilson

>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
>  Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 22:31:01 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:31:01 -0400
Subject: chrononaut
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$enqvah@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 16, 2005, at 7:40 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re: chrononaut
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jonathan Lighter  will haven sayinged:
>>>>
> I recall "chrononaut" (time traveler) from the early '80s, if not a
> wee bit
> earlier (I should probably go back there and check it out).
>
> Twenty-five years later, Google reveals about 10,000 hits.
> <<<
>
> There's a game called "Chrononauts", in which each player takes the
> role of
> a time-traveler trying to change selected historical events in order to
> bring about a particular possible reality. I've played it a few times
> and
> rather enjoy it.
>
> mark by hand
>

Yes, it does sound like fun. Thanks for calling my/our? attention to
it. Hope it's still in print or whatever games are.

-Wilson

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 16 22:49:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:49:50 -0400
Subject: new mytho-ety-acronym
In-Reply-To: <20050616215857.90899.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>The reason for the enduring application of the word "hack" to prison
>guards (OK, OK< corrections officers) is not known, but it probably
>isn't for the reason accepted by "Dohmnuill" at UrbanDictionary.com
>last Dec. 30:
>
>Hack . . .
>As an acronymn for Horses Ass Carrying Keys. Prison slang referring
>to a prison guard.
>Put your pig sticker away. The HACK is coming!
>
>JL
>
Well, I do like the "acronymn" concept, emphasizing the
preaching-to-the-choir aspect of these etymologies...

L

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 16 22:54:48 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:54:48 -0700
Subject: "Fundamental Tenants"
In-Reply-To: <210.2b209cd.2fde4886@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 12, 2005, at 7:25 PM, Barry Popik wrote:

> FUNDAMENTAL TENANS--777 Google hits, 168 Google Groups hits
> FUNDAMENTAL TENENETS--259 Google hits, 139 Google Groups hits
> FUNDAMENTAL TENETS--56,300 Google hits, 5,300 Google Groups hits...

tenets >> tenants is in the eggcorn database, entered by Chris Waigl
on 4 April 2005.

arnold

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 16 22:57:32 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:57:32 -0700
Subject: new mytho-ety-acronym
Message-ID: 

I once had a freshman who consistently misspelled his own name: "Robert."

He always spelled it "Robbert" with two Bs.  So I ast him, I said, "Is your first name really 'Robbert' with with two Bs?"  And he says, "Oh, no, that's just a mistake!" And he scratches out one of the Bs.

Next week - two Bs again.  And every week after.  I was ready to give him extra credit if he'd spell his name right.

But waddaya gonna do?

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: new mytho-ety-acronym
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 16, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: new mytho-ety-acronym
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The reason for the enduring application of the word "hack" to prison
> guards (OK, OK< corrections officers) is not known, but it probably
> isn't for the reason accepted by "Dohmnuill" at UrbanDictionary.com
> last Dec. 30:
>
> Hack . . .
> As an acronymn for Horses Ass Carrying Keys. Prison slang referring to
> a prison guard.
> Put your pig sticker away. The HACK is coming!
>
> JL
>

When I was in the Army, a fellow G.I. took a lot of teasing for
misspelling his own name: "Reynoods" instead of "Reynolds." Now, I
finally see another instance of this rare phenomenon. "Dohmnuill"
should be spelled "Domhnuill."

-Wilson

>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
> Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Jun 16 23:01:59 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:01:59 -0400
Subject: hack
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$en2a1v@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

I remember the late Steve LaPointe, when he was still an undergrad at
the 'Tute in ?1974, referring to himself as a "computer hack," a person
majoring in computer science. That is, "hacker" may be an
overcorrection/reinterpretation of "hack" as a noun. At least, that's
what I've wanted to believe, all these years. ;-)

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 15, 2005, at 11:43 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      hack
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> hack -- a prank, particularly technically-oriented, or involved
> detailed =
> planning (or at least appealing to MIT students)
> =20
> This sense isn't in the OED or the HDAS.  As near as I can tell, it =
> started as MIT slang.  I tend to think that the computing sense of =
> "hack" evolved from it, but can't prove it.
> =20
> =20
> "Two expelled from dorms" _The Tech_ (MIT, Cambridge, MA) Vol 83, No. =
> 12, May 1 1963, p. 1, col 3 and 4.
> online at:  =
> http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_083/TECH_V083_S0157_P001.pdf
> =20
> "It was brought out in testimony that the four students involved had =
> decided to retaliate to a hack perpetrated by a close friend, not an
> MIT =
> student." =20
> =20
> and later in the article=20
> =20
> "At the trial, the five, including their friend, stressed that the
> hack =
> was considered a "joke" by all concerned, and a harmless  one at that."
> =20
> "Techman chosen for priority mission" _The Tech_ (MIT, Cambridge, MA) =
> Vol 82, No. 11, Apr 25, 1962, p. 8, col  4.
> online at:  =
> http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_083/TECH_V083_S0157_P001.pdf
> "I figured that if anyone was willing to buy a thirteen-dollar ticket =
> just for a hack, then there just might be a man in a turquoise suit in
>  =
> the Plaza lobby."
> =20
> "Is Paul alive? - the morbid details" Dave deBronkart and John
> Jurewicz, =
> _ The Tech_ (MIT, Cambridge, MA) Vol 89, No. 38, Oct 21, 1969, p. 5,
> col =
>  1. http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_089/TECH_V089_S0385_P005.pdf
> "For the last three years the Beatles have been pulling a monumentally
> =
> bizarre hack on the world: they have repeatedly indicated that Paul =
> McCartney has been dead since 1966."
> =20
> =20
> _Penn & Teller's How to Play with Your Food_, Penn Jillett and Teller,
> =
> Villard Books: New York, 1992. p. 110, from the chapter "Pixar's =
> Listerine Hack"
> "To computer people, scams, practical jokes, and most anything sneaky =
> and clever are "hacks."  Our computer buddies congratulate us on our =
> "Letterman hacks."  This book could be called "Penn & Teller's Food =
> Hacks." "
> =20
>
> =20
>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun 16 23:11:50 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:11:50 -0500
Subject: crummies = communists
Message-ID: 

> OED has "red-baiter" from 1929, actually.

So it does.  My bad.

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 17 02:00:56 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:00:56 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3mmkcf@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 11:11 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I asked:
>> How 'bout Mose Allison?
>
>
> Wilson responded:
>>>>
> As a black man who sings like a white man? I didn't realize that he was
> black, though I have no problem accepting that he is, by virtue of the
> one-drop rule.
> <<<
>
> 'tother way round: as a white man who sings like a black man. Well,
> that's
> to my ear, which is rather tin in that range, or at least much less
> experienced than yours in the range of southern dialects of all colors.
>
> -- Mark
>

What I go by is what I think when I first hear a record by a person. I
blush to admit it, but when I first heard Chuck Berry, I thought that
he was some white, rock-a-billy stud, an amazing error, considering
that Chuck and I both grew up in St. Louis, we both lived there at the
beginning of his career, and he still maintains a home there. I thought
the same thing about Ray Sharpe, that he was white, despite the fact
that he was a fellow black native of East Texas. He was a one-hit
wonder with the rock-a-billy classic, "(They Call My Baby
Patty?/Betty?, But Her Real Name, Her Real Name Is) Linda Lu."  WRT
him, I was half-right. Rock-a-billy *was* his bag. He made a modest
living playing against type, like that black country-singer whose name
escapes me.

I thought that Bobby Darrin was black, behind "Splish-Splash," his
first hit, helped by the fact that the song was first broken to
black-oriented stations. Afterward, it was, "You guys thought that I
was black, but I'm really white! Now, I can cross back and start making
some real money!" I thought that Roy "The Houston Flash" Head, a
one-hit wonder with "Treat Her Right," was black until I saw him on
American Bandstand. Likewise WRT Tony Joe White, another one-hit wonder
with "Polk-Salad Annie."

People like Johnny Mathis (Ebony, etc.) and Mose Allison (Downbeat,
etc.) were already so well-known that I didn't have a chance to listen
to them with an open mind. This was also true of Elvis. I read an
article about him in the paper touting him as the newest Great White
Hope, so to speak, before I ever heard him sing. When I eventually did
hear "Heartbreak Hotel," I was quite impressed. He more than lived up
to the hype. But, since I already knew that he was white, there was
nothing about his singing to make me think that he sounded black. And I
still think that Elvis was always Elvis and not just some white guy who
sang like a black guy, regardless of what the Colonel is supposed, ex
post facto, to have said.

-Wilson

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 17 02:01:44 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:01:44 EDT
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
Message-ID: 

If we have discussed this before, I apologize. What I want to know is how one 
might communicate to the folks who created MicrosoftWord's grammar checker 
that some of their advice is totally crazy. For example, in a legal document I 
wrote:

"During the academic year 2005?6 I will chair both the Linguistics Program 
and the Department of English at Duke. ..."

Word insists that this should be changed to read, "During the academic year 
2005?6 we will chair both the Linguistics Program and the Department of English 
at Duke. ..."

I have gained a little weight since January, but not enough to qualify me as 
plural. Nor am I the queen of England (who is reported to have once said, "We 
and our husband are glad"). Nor am I a nurse--who apparently can get away with 
saying things like "It is time for our enema" (oh, but that is a different 
'we'--here it means 'you'). Could this be some kind of Yankee reflex of the 
mysterious, ghostly, singular Y'ALL? 

Does ANYBODY teach students to write papers in which they refer to themselves 
as crowds of people or stuffy old queens? That is soooo 1930s, it seems to me 
(us?)

From rshuy at MONTANA.COM  Fri Jun 17 02:36:07 2005
From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:36:07 -0600
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: <200506170201.j5H21pGX006391@barbelith.montana.com>
Message-ID: 

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:      'We' for 'I' in writing
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
-
>
> If we have discussed this before, I apologize. What I want to know is how on=
> e=20
> might communicate to the folks who created MicrosoftWord's grammar checker=20
> that some of their advice is totally crazy. For example, in a legal document=
>  I=20
> wrote:
>
> "During the academic year 2005=E2=80=936 I will chair both the Linguistics P=
> rogram=20
> and the Department of English at Duke. ..."
>
> Word insists that this should be changed to read, "During the academic year=20
> 2005=E2=80=936 we will chair both the Linguistics Program and the Department=
>  of English=20
> at Duke. ..."
>
> I have gained a little weight since January, but not enough to qualify me as=
> =20
> plural. Nor am I the queen of England (who is reported to have once said, "W=
> e=20
> and our husband are glad"). Nor am I a nurse--who apparently can get away wi=
> th=20
> saying things like "It is time for our enema" (oh, but that is a different=20
> 'we'--here it means 'you'). Could this be some kind of Yankee reflex of the=20
> mysterious, ghostly, singular Y'ALL?=20
>
> Does ANYBODY teach students to write papers in which they refer to themselve=
> s=20
> as crowds of people or stuffy old queens? That is soooo 1930s, it seems to m=
> e=20
> (us?)
>
Tell it you're beside yourself with frustration and anger. Oops. That might
only encourage them.

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 17 02:59:52 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:59:52 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
>> Subject:      'We' for 'I' in writing
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
>-
>>
>> If we have discussed this before, I apologize. What I want to know is
>>how on=
>> e=20
>> might communicate to the folks who created MicrosoftWord's grammar
>>checker=20
>> that some of their advice is totally crazy. For example, in a legal
>>document=
>>  I=20
>> wrote:
>>
>> "During the academic year 2005=E2=80=936 I will chair both the
>>Linguistics P=
>> rogram=20
>> and the Department of English at Duke. ..."
>>
>> Word insists that this should be changed to read, "During the academic
>>year=20
>> 2005=E2=80=936 we will chair both the Linguistics Program and the
>>Department=
>>  of English=20
>> at Duke. ..."
>>
>> I have gained a little weight since January, but not enough to qualify
>>me as=
>> =20
>> plural. Nor am I the queen of England (who is reported to have once
>>said, "W=
>> e=20
>> and our husband are glad"). Nor am I a nurse--who apparently can get
>>away wi=
>> th=20
>> saying things like "It is time for our enema" (oh, but that is a
>>different=20
>> 'we'--here it means 'you'). Could this be some kind of Yankee reflex of
>>the=20
>> mysterious, ghostly, singular Y'ALL?=20
>>
>> Does ANYBODY teach students to write papers in which they refer to
>>themselve=
>> s=20
>> as crowds of people or stuffy old queens? That is soooo 1930s, it seems to
me (us?)
>>-----------
>Tell it you're beside yourself with frustration and anger. Oops. That might
>only encourage them.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe it's proposing a partnership.
AM

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 17 03:28:19 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:28:19 -0400
Subject: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$elvnl4@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 15, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      Re: "Is you is or is you ain't?" (1921)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I vaguely recall from the news a few (ten??) years back a story about a
> small rural town which was lobbying for a new prison to be built,
> because of the jobs it would bring.  Someone (a local deejay?), as part
> of the lobbying effort, recorded a song and possibly a music video (you
> remember those, MTV used to run them) that included the lines:
> "Is we is
> or is we isn't
> gonna get ourselves
> a prison?"
>

Moicih Jedus!

-Wilson Gray

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> On 6/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
>>>>> Like many of my generation, I was first introduced to Louis
> Jordan's
>>>>> 1944 hit "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" via the Tom & Jerry
>>>>> cartoon "Solid Serenade" (1946). (Jordan cowrote the song, his
> first
>>>>> million seller, with Bill Austin.) I came across a much earlier
>>>>> example of "Is you is or is you ain't" in a 1921 story by Octavus
>>>>> Roy Cohen, a
>>>>> Jewish writer from South Carolina who wrote humorous black-dialect
>>>>> fiction:
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> "Less Miserable" by Octavus Roy Cohen _Chicago Tribune_, Sep. 25,
>>>>> 1921, (Magazine) p. 1/3 "What I asks you straight an'
>> plain: Is you
>>>>> gwine loant me them two dollars, or ain't you?"
>>>>> "I ain't said I ain't."
>>>>> "You ain't said you is."
>>>>> "I ain't said nothin'."
>>>>> "Well, I asks: Is you is or is you ain't?"
>>>>> -----
>>>>>
>

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 17 03:39:50 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:39:50 -0400
Subject: benny/HDAS
In-Reply-To: <20050615213801.10149.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Do you ever think,in the quiet hours of morning, "I've forgotten more than.
. .ever knew"?

Jim

Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Thanks for the kind words, Neil.  But do you have copies in your car as well?  Red lights, stop signs, and traffic jams afford numerous opportunities to consult and peruse.
>
> As for the Sanders cite with the meaning "condom."  "Benny," as HDAS also observes, was once not uncommon as a slang term for an overcoat (cf. much earlier "Benjamin," a greatcoat).   Thus the transfer to "condom" (cf. syn."raincoat").
>
> JL
>
>
> neil  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: neil
> Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Of course, I am a privileged householder who has both volumes of HDAS, an
> indispensable resource of recondite knowledge, meticulously researched (why,
> oh why, did RH give up on the most important slang survey in our life
> time?).
>
> And now to lower the tone, as some of you who recognise my postings may
> expect:
>
> Benny =- condom
>
> "Ed, that thing you put on - will that keep me from having a baby?" -- "The
> benny? Sure - unless someone sneaked in here and poked a hole in it."
> --Lawrence Sanders, 'The Dream Lover', 1978 [New English Library, London,
> 1986, 206]
>
> benny = sexually aroused (m)
>
> 'The throbbing of the penis I have heard referred to as 'clocky', 'ticky' or
> 'benny' (obvious references to the ticking of a clock).'
> --J.W., 'The Language of mastirbation', in 'The Sex Life Letters (Harold &
> Ruth greenwald, eds), Grafton books, London, 1974, 265
>
> --Neil Crawford
>
>
> on 15/6/05 9:07 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: benny?
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --> -
>>
>> "Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."
>>
>> HDAS has an illuminating entry. All households should own at least one copy
>> of the two volumes that have appeared.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
>> Subject: benny?
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --> -
>>
>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.st
>> ory?page=2
>>
>> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
>> benny."
>>
>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
>> as losing one's temper
>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?
>>
>> --
>> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>>
>> Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
>> CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
>> University of Alabama Libraries
>> Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
>> Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
>> rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
>  Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 04:15:06 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:15:06 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:00:56 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>What I go by is what I think when I first hear a record by a person. I
>blush to admit it, but when I first heard Chuck Berry, I thought that
>he was some white, rock-a-billy stud, an amazing error, considering
>that Chuck and I both grew up in St. Louis, we both lived there at the
>beginning of his career, and he still maintains a home there.

Considering that his first hit, "Maybellene", was a rewrite of the old
hillbilly tune "Ida Red" (recorded by Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys
inter alia), I wouldn't be surprised if he was at first hard to categorize
for many listeners.

So are there any noticeable St. Louis-isms in Chuck Berry's songs?  I've
always wondered if, say, "gunny sack" ("Johnny B. Goode"), "juke joint"
("School Days"), "wiggles like a glow worm" ("Roll Over Beethoven"), or
"blowin' like a hurrican" ("Rock and Roll Music") were hallmarks of AAVE
in the St. Louis region.

--Ben Zimmer

From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 17 04:28:59 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:28:59 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

1.  I agree that the Word Big Brother checker is annoyingly retro.

2.  You must remember that Big Bill (aka Big Brother) dropped out of school,
so has an inferiority complex, despite all his money.  Money does not equal
knowledge of language and fork use, or real knowledge of any kind.  Big
Bill?s money cache represents a clever, rapacious approach to commerce,
not a knowledge of language.

3. Big Bill can afford to hire anybody to say or do whatever he wants, and
he wants a very conservative system which supports his control over life,
all computer applications and the European Union.  Big Bill and Gould Brown
would like each other.

3.  No one has to (hasta) accept Bill?s notions of propriety, perspicuity,
and precision, just because he has incorporated his values in a robotic
program.

4. You should use we or I wherever you wish, and don?t let Big Bill raise
your blood pressure. He might eliminate one more burr under his saddle.

Jim

RonButters at AOL.COM writes:

> If we have discussed this before, I apologize. What I want to know is how one
> might communicate to the folks who created MicrosoftWord's grammar checker
> that some of their advice is totally crazy. For example, in a legal document I
> wrote:
>
> "During the academic year 2005?6 I will chair both the Linguistics Program
> and the Department of English at Duke. ..."
>
> Word insists that this should be changed to read, "During the academic year
> 2005?6 we will chair both the Linguistics Program and the Department of English
> at Duke. ..."
>
> I have gained a little weight since January, but not enough to qualify me as
> plural. Nor am I the queen of England (who is reported to have once said, "We
> and our husband are glad"). Nor am I a nurse--who apparently can get away with
> saying things like "It is time for our enema" (oh, but that is a different
> 'we'--here it means 'you'). Could this be some kind of Yankee reflex of the
> mysterious, ghostly, singular Y'ALL?
>
> Does ANYBODY teach students to write papers in which they refer to themselves
> as crowds of people or stuffy old queens? That is soooo 1930s, it seems to me
> (us?)
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 04:34:48 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:34:48 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:00 PM -0400 6/16/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>What I go by is what I think when I first hear a record by a person. I
>blush to admit it, but when I first heard Chuck Berry, I thought that
>he was some white, rock-a-billy stud, an amazing error, considering
>that Chuck and I both grew up in St. Louis, we both lived there at the
>beginning of his career, and he still maintains a home there. I thought
>the same thing about Ray Sharpe, that he was white, despite the fact
>that he was a fellow black native of East Texas. He was a one-hit
>wonder with the rock-a-billy classic, "(They Call My Baby
>Patty?/Betty?, But Her Real Name, Her Real Name Is) Linda Lu."  WRT
>him, I was half-right. Rock-a-billy *was* his bag. He made a modest
>living playing against type, like that black country-singer whose name
>escapes me.

Charley (or maybe Charlie?) Pride

Larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 05:06:05 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:06:05 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <38760.69.142.143.59.1118981706.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

>On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:00:56 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:
>
>>What I go by is what I think when I first hear a record by a person. I
>>blush to admit it, but when I first heard Chuck Berry, I thought that
>>he was some white, rock-a-billy stud, an amazing error, considering
>>that Chuck and I both grew up in St. Louis, we both lived there at the
>>beginning of his career, and he still maintains a home there.
>
>Considering that his first hit, "Maybellene", was a rewrite of the old
>hillbilly tune "Ida Red" (recorded by Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys
>inter alia), I wouldn't be surprised if he was at first hard to categorize
>for many listeners.
>
>So are there any noticeable St. Louis-isms in Chuck Berry's songs?  I've
>always wondered if, say, "gunny sack" ("Johnny B. Goode")

Of course, as we now know, the music and lyrics for "Johnny B. Goode"
came to Chuck Berry over the phone from renowned chrononaut Marty
McFly (via Chuck's cousin Marvin Berry), and hence "gunny sack" must
be assumed to be a 1985 Hill Valley Californianism.  Of course Marty
himself did get the lyrics from the old Chuck Berrry song, but then
again...  [Arrgggh, there goes the ol' space-time continuum!!!]

L

>, "juke joint"
>("School Days"), "wiggles like a glow worm" ("Roll Over Beethoven"), or
>"blowin' like a hurrican" ("Rock and Roll Music") were hallmarks of AAVE
>in the St. Louis region.
>
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 17 06:11:41 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:11:41 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$epv3s1@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 12:15 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:00:56 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>
>> What I go by is what I think when I first hear a record by a person. I
>> blush to admit it, but when I first heard Chuck Berry, I thought that
>> he was some white, rock-a-billy stud, an amazing error, considering
>> that Chuck and I both grew up in St. Louis, we both lived there at the
>> beginning of his career, and he still maintains a home there.
>
> Considering that his first hit, "Maybellene", was a rewrite of the old
> hillbilly tune "Ida Red" (recorded by Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys
> inter alia), I wouldn't be surprised if he was at first hard to
> categorize
> for many listeners.

It's been said that Chuck's singing and playing was greatly influenced
by his two stretches at Jeff City, the (former?) state prison, where he
came into contact with hillbilly players and singers from the Missouri
Ozarks.

> So are there any noticeable St. Louis-isms in Chuck Berry's songs?
> I've
> always wondered if, say, "gunny sack" ("Johnny B. Goode"), "juke joint"
> ("School Days"), "wiggles like a glow worm" ("Roll Over Beethoven"), or
> "blowin' like a hurrican" ("Rock and Roll Music") were hallmarks of
> AAVE
> in the St. Louis region.

Well, the pronunciation "herrican" is one, but the phrase "blowing like
a hurricane" isn't. We'd say, "The hawk talks." "Gunny sack" is used
instead of "crocus sack." Mostly, it's Chuck's pronunciation that's
peculiar to St. Louis.

-Wilson Gray
>
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Jun 17 06:16:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:16:21 -0400
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$epvhf5@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 12:34 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: "Sock It to Me"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 10:00 PM -0400 6/16/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> What I go by is what I think when I first hear a record by a person. I
>> blush to admit it, but when I first heard Chuck Berry, I thought that
>> he was some white, rock-a-billy stud, an amazing error, considering
>> that Chuck and I both grew up in St. Louis, we both lived there at the
>> beginning of his career, and he still maintains a home there. I
>> thought
>> the same thing about Ray Sharpe, that he was white, despite the fact
>> that he was a fellow black native of East Texas. He was a one-hit
>> wonder with the rock-a-billy classic, "(They Call My Baby
>> Patty?/Betty?, But Her Real Name, Her Real Name Is) Linda Lu."  WRT
>> him, I was half-right. Rock-a-billy *was* his bag. He made a modest
>> living playing against type, like that black country-singer whose name
>> escapes me.
>
> Charley (or maybe Charlie?) Pride
>
> Larry
>

Yeah. That's the guy I had in mind.
Thanks, Larry.

-Wilson

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 17 11:18:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:18:29 -0700
Subject: benny/HDAS
Message-ID: 

Yes, but I can never remember who. Can someone help me out here?

What was the question?

JL

James C Stalker  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James C Stalker
Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you ever think,in the quiet hours of morning, "I've forgotten more than.
. .ever knew"?

Jim

Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Thanks for the kind words, Neil. But do you have copies in your car as well? Red lights, stop signs, and traffic jams afford numerous opportunities to consult and peruse.
>
> As for the Sanders cite with the meaning "condom." "Benny," as HDAS also observes, was once not uncommon as a slang term for an overcoat (cf. much earlier "Benjamin," a greatcoat). Thus the transfer to "condom" (cf. syn."raincoat").
>
> JL
>
>
> neil wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: neil
> Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Of course, I am a privileged householder who has both volumes of HDAS, an
> indispensable resource of recondite knowledge, meticulously researched (why,
> oh why, did RH give up on the most important slang survey in our life
> time?).
>
> And now to lower the tone, as some of you who recognise my postings may
> expect:
>
> Benny =- condom
>
> "Ed, that thing you put on - will that keep me from having a baby?" -- "The
> benny? Sure - unless someone sneaked in here and poked a hole in it."
> --Lawrence Sanders, 'The Dream Lover', 1978 [New English Library, London,
> 1986, 206]
>
> benny = sexually aroused (m)
>
> 'The throbbing of the penis I have heard referred to as 'clocky', 'ticky' or
> 'benny' (obvious references to the ticking of a clock).'
> --J.W., 'The Language of mastirbation', in 'The Sex Life Letters (Harold &
> Ruth greenwald, eds), Grafton books, London, 1974, 265
>
> --Neil Crawford
>
>
> on 15/6/05 9:07 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: benny?
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --> -
>>
>> "Benny" has been in use for several decades as a slang term for "a benefit."
>>
>> HDAS has an illuminating entry. All households should own at least one copy
>> of the two volumes that have appeared.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Rachel Shuttlesworth wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
>> Subject: benny?
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --> -
>>
>> From a story in the Chicago Tribune, located at
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0506150258jun15,1,6069459.st
>> ory?page=2
>>
>> "We don't really talk about healthy anywhere in our restaurant,"
>> Hirshberg said. "That's very intentional. Not because it isn't. We want
>> them to enjoy the food for the food, and then to feel that health is a
>> benny."
>>
>> I can find "benny" in the OED meaning overcoat and Benzedrine. Trying to
>> find other examples of this usage online brings up Benny's Hinn, Hill,
>> Goodman, etc. I found one case of British slang where "benny" is defined
>> as losing one's temper
>> (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/fullmonty/def/benny.htm). What is its
>> meaning above? Is it being used to mean "added benefit" or something else?
>>
>> --
>> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>>
>> Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
>> CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
>> University of Alabama Libraries
>> Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
>> Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
>> rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
> Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
>

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out!

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 17 11:26:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:26:16 -0700
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
Message-ID: 

"As I have seen in Chapter 2..."

It's like the T-shirts that say, "I'm schizophrenic and so am I"

I love it!

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: 'We' for 'I' in writing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 10:01 PM -0400 6/16/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>If we have discussed this before, I apologize. What I want to know is how one
>might communicate to the folks who created MicrosoftWord's grammar checker
>that some of their advice is totally crazy. For example, in a legal document I
>wrote:
>
>"During the academic year 2005-6 I will chair both the Linguistics Program
>and the Department of English at Duke. ..."
>
>Word insists that this should be changed to read, "During the academic year
>2005-6 we will chair both the Linguistics Program and the Department
>of English
>at Duke. ..."
>
>I have gained a little weight since January, but not enough to qualify me as
>plural. Nor am I the queen of England (who is reported to have once said, "We
>and our husband are glad"). Nor am I a nurse--who apparently can get away with
>saying things like "It is time for our enema" (oh, but that is a different
>'we'--here it means 'you'). Could this be some kind of Yankee reflex of the
>mysterious, ghostly, singular Y'ALL?
>
>Does ANYBODY teach students to write papers in which they refer to themselves
>as crowds of people or stuffy old queens? That is soooo 1930s, it seems to me
>(us?)

It's a consequence of the law of preservation of number. It's the
fault of the copy-editors at the U. of Chicago Press who (when they
can tear themselves away from their "which"es and "that"s) insist on
changing all 1st person plurals--including the joint
me-author-and-you-reader-are-in-this-together "we"--to singulars, so
that my references to e.g.

As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
We can see from these examples that...
We can distinguish the following cases:

were systematically changed to

As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
I can see from these examples that...
I can distinguish the following cases:

Larry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 17 12:01:07 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:01:07 -0700
Subject: "Dummycraps"
Message-ID: 

Mancow (the conservative talk jock, not the looming result of genetic engineering) has been routinely referring to Democrats as "Dummycraps" for several months at least.

This morning on _Fox & Friends_ he also condemned "lie-berals."

JL

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 17 13:02:59 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:02:59 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20'We'=20for=20'I'=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?in=20writing?=
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 6/17/05 12:47:58 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
> We can see from these examples that...
> We can distinguish the following cases:
>
> were systematically changed to
>
> As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
> I can see from these examples that...
> I can distinguish the following cases:
>
> Larry
>
Why not:

As I have shown in chapter 2. ...
As can be seen from these examples ...
I distinguish the following cases:

I find the "you/y'all-&-dear-reader(s)" WE a little patronizing, though I
know we don't all agree about this.

From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 17 13:13:58 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:13:58 -0700
Subject: Homework question
Message-ID: 

A friend's child was told the following sentence is
ungrammatical:

I know you would do well on the math test.

It sounds ok to me. Any insight into what's wrong with
this?

Ed

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

From tb5fab at GMAIL.COM  Fri Jun 17 13:27:02 2005
From: tb5fab at GMAIL.COM (Patti Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:27:02 -0500
Subject: Homework question
In-Reply-To: <42b2cc9d.17d3290b.7f99.5274SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Without a context, it's hard, but perhaps the teachers expected it to be
past tense, as in "I knew you would do well on the math test."  The
"know" combined with "would" sounds a little odd to my ear, though not
ungrammatical.  For me, the meaning of "I know you would do well" is "If
you took the test I know you'd do well" whereas the second one "I knew
you would do well" means "You took the test and did well as I knew you
would."

Not sure if that's even close, just my take on it.

Patti Kurtz

Ed Keer wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Ed Keer 
>Subject:      Homework question
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>A friend's child was told the following sentence is
>ungrammatical:
>
>I know you would do well on the math test.
>
>It sounds ok to me. Any insight into what's wrong with
>this?
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Discover Yahoo!
>Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
>http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
>
>
>

--

Straker - Good. Let me give you a piece of advice Paul. Don't ever judge
a situation by the end of a conversation.

From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 17 13:34:50 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:34:50 -0400
Subject: Bennifer, the sequel
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Automatic digest processor wrote:

I may have simply missed this one being discussed, but along with a
writeup on the Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie movie "Mr. & Mrs. Smith", a
photo caption refers to them as "Brangelina".

Gobs and tones of Google hits, including an AdFreak article titled "Are
we really calling them Brangelina?" at
http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2005/06/are_we_really_c.html that
discusses it as a relatively new phenomenon, mentioning the
non-existence of Humphauren (Humphrey Bogart/Lauren Bacall) and
Richabeth (Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor).

This leads to the question: Was Bennifer the first of these pop culture
show biz first name combinations? I doubt it, but i can't think of any
earlier ones offhand.

--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Jun 17 14:01:32 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:01:32 -0400
Subject: Homework question
In-Reply-To: <20050617131358.36047.qmail@web33103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Could this be the prescriptivist's "sequence of tense" crap:

I knew that you would...

I know that you will...

in which the semantic distinctiveness of "I know that you would" is ignored.

dInIs

>A friend's child was told the following sentence is
>ungrammatical:
>
>I know you would do well on the math test.
>
>It sounds ok to me. Any insight into what's wrong with
>this?
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Discover Yahoo!
>Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
>http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 17 14:13:10 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:13:10 -0700
Subject: Homework question
In-Reply-To: <42B2CFA6.4090809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

The context is a little complicated. The teacher gave
them a bunch of sentences with missing verbs and some
verbs to choose from. The kid did not understand that
he was allowed to add tense suffixes, so he tried to
fit the verbs as best he could. He was given both
'know' and 'knew', but 'knew' only worked in one of
the other sentences.

--- Patti Kurtz  wrote:

> Without a context, it's hard, but perhaps the
> teachers expected it to be
> past tense, as in "I knew you would do well on the
> math test."  The
> "know" combined with "would" sounds a little odd to
> my ear, though not
> ungrammatical.  For me, the meaning of "I know you
> would do well" is "If
> you took the test I know you'd do well" whereas the
> second one "I knew
> you would do well" means "You took the test and did
> well as I knew you
> would."
>
> Not sure if that's even close, just my take on it.
>
> Patti Kurtz
>
> Ed Keer wrote:
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> >Sender:       American Dialect Society
> 
> >Poster:       Ed Keer 
> >Subject:      Homework question
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >A friend's child was told the following sentence is
> >ungrammatical:
> >
> >I know you would do well on the math test.
> >
> >It sounds ok to me. Any insight into what's wrong
> with
> >this?
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Discover Yahoo!
> >Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM
> and more. Check it out!
> >http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Straker - Good. Let me give you a piece of advice
> Paul. Don't ever judge
> a situation by the end of a conversation.
>

____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 17 14:19:59 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:19:59 -0500
Subject: "Sock It to Me"
Message-ID: 

 He made a modest
> >living playing against type, like that black country-singer
> whose name
> >escapes me.
>
> Charley (or maybe Charlie?) Pride
>

Charley Pride, who also played in the last vestiges of the Negro
Leagues.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 15:00:45 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:00:45 -0400
Subject: benny/HDAS
In-Reply-To: <20050617111829.91051.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 4:18 AM -0700 6/17/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Yes, but I can never remember who. Can someone help me out here?
>
>What was the question?
>
>JL

In my case, with the big 6-0 coming up four weeks from yesterday,
it's all too easy:  "than I ever knew".

L

>
>James C Stalker  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: James C Stalker
>Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you ever think,in the quiet hours of morning, "I've forgotten more than.
>. .ever knew"?
>
>Jim
>

From kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG  Fri Jun 17 15:00:25 2005
From: kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG (Katy Miller)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:00:25 -0400
Subject: Milkshake
In-Reply-To: <20050617093408.SM02140@psmtp.com>
Message-ID: 

>>From today's Washington Post

"Yet even after the personnel problems were smoothed out (and long
before Beyonce released her solo album and was transformed into a
single-named star with a milkshake to rival Jennifer Lopez and Kelis
combined), she was the de facto Diana Ross of the group."

Kelis' 2003 song "Milkshake," has the lyrics,
"My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
And their like
It's better than yours,
Damn right it's better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge"

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 15:13:38 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:13:38 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I'                in writing
In-Reply-To: <1b9.15b0d047.2fe42403@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:02 AM -0400 6/17/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>In a message dated 6/17/05 12:47:58 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
>>  We can see from these examples that...
>>  We can distinguish the following cases:
>>
>>  were systematically changed to
>>
>>  As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
>>  I can see from these examples that...
>>  I can distinguish the following cases:
>>
>>  Larry
>>
>Why not:
>
>As I have shown in chapter 2. ...
>As can be seen from these examples ...
>I distinguish the following cases:
>
>I find the "you/y'all-&-dear-reader(s)" WE a little patronizing, though I
>know we don't all agree about this.

Of course, these versions would have been a lot better than
Chicago's, and that's the kind of re-edit I settled on when I noticed
their earlier improvements.  In a 600 page book, it wasn't easy to
notice them all, though, and a number of their "As I have seen"
versions slipped through.  But in terms of preference, I don't see
any problem in treating the discovery of general principles by
working through complex data sets as a collaborative process between
writer and reader, whence the "we".  And of course "As can be seen"
is out because it's passive, and hence also verboten.   (And no, I
don't consider "As one can see" a viable alternative.)
I have no objection to either "As I have shown" or "As we have seen",
which incidentally are not interchangeable, and I find the latter no
more patronizing than the former self-aggrandizing.  But I really
draw the line at "As I have seen" or the even more flagrant "As I saw
above", which also crept through the process once or twice.  Of
course, I'm a longtime proponent of the
if-it-ain't-broke-don't-"fix"-it philosophy.

Larry

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 15:21:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:21:30 -0400
Subject: Bennifer, the sequel
In-Reply-To: <42B2D17A.7020007@pmpkn.net>
Message-ID: 

At 9:34 AM -0400 6/17/05, David Bowie wrote:
>Automatic digest processor wrote:
>
>I may have simply missed this one being discussed, but along with a
>writeup on the Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie movie "Mr. & Mrs. Smith", a
>photo caption refers to them as "Brangelina".
>
>Gobs and tones of Google hits, including an AdFreak article titled "Are
>we really calling them Brangelina?" at
>http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2005/06/are_we_really_c.html that
>discusses it as a relatively new phenomenon, mentioning the
>non-existence of Humphauren (Humphrey Bogart/Lauren Bacall) and
>Richabeth (Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor).
>
>This leads to the question: Was Bennifer the first of these pop culture
>show biz first name combinations? I doubt it, but i can't think of any
>earlier ones offhand.
>
>--

Not exactly showbiz, but wasn't "Billary" used for the Clintons early
on in his (or their) first term?

L

From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 15:23:40 2005
From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:23:40 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Jun 2005 to 16 Jun 2005 (#2005-168)
In-Reply-To: <200506170438.j5H4S5pj269650@f05n16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:01 AM 6/17/2005, you wrote:
>Well, at least the avocado in California rolls is still real.  The
>"crabmeat" is usually imitation, though (crab-colored pollock or
>whatever).  American ingenuity!

Sorry, Larry, but in this case it's Japanese ingenuity, since the
"crabmeat" is a Japanese invention, called surimi, a compound of /suru/
'do, process' and /mi/ 'meat' (I'm not sure whether this is a borrowing of
English 'meat' or a native Japanese word, and don't have a proper Japanese
dictionary available).  I believe the Japanese had been using this stuff
for a while before it made its way to American shores.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan 
Faculty Liaison, Computing and Information Technology,
         and Associate Professor of English
Linguistics Program                     Phone Numbers
Department of English                   Computing and Information
Technology:  (313) 577-1259
Wayne State University                  Linguistics (English):  (313) 577-8621
Detroit, MI, 48202                      C&IT Fax: (313) 577-1338

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 15:29:10 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:29:10 -0400
Subject: Bennifer, the sequel
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 11:21 AM -0400 6/17/05, Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 9:34 AM -0400 6/17/05, David Bowie wrote:
>>Automatic digest processor wrote:
>>
>>I may have simply missed this one being discussed, but along with a
>>writeup on the Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie movie "Mr. & Mrs. Smith", a
>>photo caption refers to them as "Brangelina".
>>
>>Gobs and tones of Google hits, including an AdFreak article titled "Are
>>we really calling them Brangelina?" at
>>http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2005/06/are_we_really_c.html that
>>discusses it as a relatively new phenomenon, mentioning the
>>non-existence of Humphauren (Humphrey Bogart/Lauren Bacall) and
>>Richabeth (Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor).
>>
>>This leads to the question: Was Bennifer the first of these pop culture
>>show biz first name combinations? I doubt it, but i can't think of any
>>earlier ones offhand.
>>
>>--
>
>Not exactly showbiz, but wasn't "Billary" used for the Clintons early
>on in his (or their) first term?
>
>L

On closer look, it was actually early on during their
presidency-elect.  First Nexis (Major Papers) hit (note also the
somewhat cloudy crystal ball):

The Houston Chronicle
November 8, 1992, Sunday, 2 STAR Edition

  SECTION: OUTLOOK; Viewpoints; Pg. 3
  HEADLINE: Get ready for four-year Clinton tragicomedy

  BYLINE: K.L. WALLIS

  DATELINE: HOUSTON

  Congratulations, America. The election of ""Billary'' Clinton
  and Al ""Greenpeace'' Gore means continued promises.

  Promise: Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., Jesse Jackson, Gov. Ann
  Richards, New York Gov. Mario Cuomo, former Texas Railroad
  Commission Chairwoman Lena Guererro and those of their ilk will be
  in Clinton's Cabinet and on the Supreme Court.

  Promise: Increases in the deficit, taxes, inflation rates,
  interest rates, tax-supported social and environmental programs,
  government spending with its attendant waste and fraud,
  unemployment (except government), small-business failures and
  government will be in our lives.

  Promise: Decreases in real (net disposable) personal income,
  housing starts, military strength, American prestige in the world,
  our quality of life and our national sense of well-being (so
  carefully nurtured back to life during the Reagan/Bush
  administrations after the disastrous Carter years) will be a
  reality.

  Promise: There will be four years of a Washington
  tragicomedy.
==================

And there were 86 additional hits by the end of 1993.

Larry

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 17 15:33:33 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:33:33 -0400
Subject: "We" for "I"
Message-ID: 

larry writes:
.....< And of course "As can be seen"
is out because it's passive, and hence also verboten.>
~~~~~~~~~
Oh, absolutely!  Let it never be said (oops!) that useful distinctions can
be made between various uses of the passive.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 17 15:39:41 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:39:41 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:01 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote:
>If we have discussed this before, I apologize. What I want to know is how one
>might communicate to the folks who created MicrosoftWord's grammar checker
>that some of their advice is totally crazy. For example, in a legal
>document I
>wrote:
>
>"During the academic year 2005?6 I will chair both the Linguistics PProgram
>and the Department of English at Duke. ..."
>
>Word insists that this should be changed to read, "During the academic year
>2005?6 we will chair both the Linguistics Program and the Departmentt of
>English
>at Duke. ..."
>
>I have gained a little weight since January, but not enough to qualify me as
>plural. Nor am I the queen of England (who is reported to have once said, "We
>and our husband are glad"). Nor am I a nurse--who apparently can get away
>with
>saying things like "It is time for our enema" (oh, but that is a different
>'we'--here it means 'you'). Could this be some kind of Yankee reflex of the
>mysterious, ghostly, singular Y'ALL?
>
>Does ANYBODY teach students to write papers in which they refer to themselves
>as crowds of people or stuffy old queens? That is soooo 1930s, it seems to me
>(us?)

Margaret Thatcher, who tended to put herself on the level of the Queen,
once announced, upon the birth of her son's child, "We are a
grandmother."  Even the British papers made fun of it.  I cite it when I
teach Brown and Gilman's article on pronouns.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 17 16:04:28 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:04:28 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Jun 2005 to 16 Jun 2005 (#2005-168)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617111947.02d9f508@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:23 AM -0400 6/17/05, Geoff Nathan wrote:
>At 12:01 AM 6/17/2005, you wrote:
>>Well, at least the avocado in California rolls is still real.  The
>>"crabmeat" is usually imitation, though (crab-colored pollock or
>>whatever).  American ingenuity!
>
>Sorry, Larry, but in this case it's Japanese ingenuity, since the
>"crabmeat" is a Japanese invention, called surimi, a compound of /suru/
>'do, process' and /mi/ 'meat' (I'm not sure whether this is a borrowing of
>English 'meat' or a native Japanese word, and don't have a proper Japanese
>dictionary available).  I believe the Japanese had been using this stuff
>for a while before it made its way to American shores.
>
Good point, Geoff.  I knew about surimi being Japanese (since I buy
the stuff myself, I confess), but hadn't realized that the etymology
was < suru + mi.  Or that it wouldn't be sacrilegious (now *that's* a
word that ends up subject to widespread eggcornization as
"sacreligious", probably more often than not*) for echt Japanese
sushi, as opposed to the California knock-off, to substitute surimi
for crab.  (I've only seen surimi fish--pseudo-crab, pseudo-lobster,
etc.--never surimi meat.  Perhaps the latter isn't exported here?)

L

*less often than not, by Google evidence:

sacrilegious 186,000
sacreligious   37,800

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 17:09:16 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:09:16 -0400
Subject: "Redskin" flap in Indian Country Today
Message-ID: 

FYI.

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411092

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jun 17 17:31:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:31:25 -0700
Subject: Homework question
Message-ID: 

Sounds like a really ill-conceived assignment to the undersigned..

JL

Ed Keer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Ed Keer
Subject: Re: Homework question
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The context is a little complicated. The teacher gave
them a bunch of sentences with missing verbs and some
verbs to choose from. The kid did not understand that
he was allowed to add tense suffixes, so he tried to
fit the verbs as best he could. He was given both
'know' and 'knew', but 'knew' only worked in one of
the other sentences.

--- Patti Kurtz wrote:

> Without a context, it's hard, but perhaps the
> teachers expected it to be
> past tense, as in "I knew you would do well on the
> math test." The
> "know" combined with "would" sounds a little odd to
> my ear, though not
> ungrammatical. For me, the meaning of "I know you
> would do well" is "If
> you took the test I know you'd do well" whereas the
> second one "I knew
> you would do well" means "You took the test and did
> well as I knew you
> would."
>
> Not sure if that's even close, just my take on it.
>
> Patti Kurtz
>
> Ed Keer wrote:
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
>
> >Poster: Ed Keer
> >Subject: Homework question
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >A friend's child was told the following sentence is
> >ungrammatical:
> >
> >I know you would do well on the math test.
> >
> >It sounds ok to me. Any insight into what's wrong
> with
> >this?
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Discover Yahoo!
> >Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM
> and more. Check it out!
> >http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Straker - Good. Let me give you a piece of advice
> Paul. Don't ever judge
> a situation by the end of a conversation.
>

____________________________________________________
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 17:32:49 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:32:49 -0400
Subject: RINO reinterpreted
Message-ID: 

RINO is the disparaging acronym for moderate-to-liberal Republicans, who
conservatives call "Republicans In Name Only." See the archives for Barry
Popik's posts on the term (he dated it back to 1993 and noted the related
acronyms DINO = "Democrat In Name Only" and SINO = "Student In Name
Only").

Like so many pejoratives, RINO has been reinterpreted with a positive spin
by one of the intended targets. The founder of the "Raging RINOs" blog
community on the "Truth Laid Bear" site says it stands for "Republicans /
Independents Not Overdosed (on the Party Kool Aid)."

http://acepilots.com/mt/archives/002106.html
http://www.truthlaidbear.com/communitypage.php?community=rinos

(I assume that the knowing eggcornization "Truth Laid Bear" is a cousin of
"Gladly the Cross-Eyed Bear.")

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 17 18:59:52 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:59:52 -0500
Subject: Bennifer, the sequel
Message-ID: 

Newsbank finds it a little earlier:

LOST CHANCE TO VOTE FOR SINCERITY, STRENGTH
SACRAMENTO BEE
March 22, 1992
Author: Pete Dexter

"As it is, we come into the spring of this election year looking at the
prospect of choosing (if I may change the metaphor) between the
landlords George Bush who, after three years of running the building,
still tries to persuade us that it's not so cold outside when we tell
him we need heat and Bill (Billary?) Clinton, who shows us through his
new building trying to ignore the fact that every time we open a door
and look into a new room, the room is infested with crawly things that
head for cover as soon as they see the lights."

A search on the Lexis/Nexis archives yields:

Arkansas Democrat-Gazette (Little Rock, AR)
August 08, 1989, Tuesday
HEADLINE: Throw Hillary into a poll for a look-see
BYLINE: JOHN BRUMMET

"Others say TR is not a tad inhibited about anything, and would relish
the opportunity to blister " Billary Clinton."
["TR" is Tommy Robinson]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 10:29 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Bennifer, the sequel
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: Bennifer, the sequel
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> At 11:21 AM -0400 6/17/05, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >At 9:34 AM -0400 6/17/05, David Bowie wrote:
> >>Automatic digest processor wrote:
> >>
> >>I may have simply missed this one being discussed, but along with a
> >>writeup on the Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie movie "Mr. & Mrs. Smith", a
> >>photo caption refers to them as "Brangelina".
> >>
> >>Gobs and tones of Google hits, including an AdFreak article titled
> >>"Are we really calling them Brangelina?" at
> >>http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2005/06/are_we_really_c.html that
> >>discusses it as a relatively new phenomenon, mentioning the
> >>non-existence of Humphauren (Humphrey Bogart/Lauren Bacall) and
> >>Richabeth (Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor).
> >>
> >>This leads to the question: Was Bennifer the first of these pop
> >>culture show biz first name combinations? I doubt it, but i can't
> >>think of any earlier ones offhand.
> >>
> >>--
> >
> >Not exactly showbiz, but wasn't "Billary" used for the
> Clintons early
> >on in his (or their) first term?
> >
> >L
>
> On closer look, it was actually early on during their
> presidency-elect.  First Nexis (Major Papers) hit (note also
> the somewhat cloudy crystal ball):
>
> The Houston Chronicle
> November 8, 1992, Sunday, 2 STAR Edition
>
>   SECTION: OUTLOOK; Viewpoints; Pg. 3
>   HEADLINE: Get ready for four-year Clinton tragicomedy
>
>   BYLINE: K.L. WALLIS
>
>   DATELINE: HOUSTON
>
>   Congratulations, America. The election of ""Billary'' Clinton
>   and Al ""Greenpeace'' Gore means continued promises.
>
>   Promise: Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., Jesse Jackson, Gov. Ann
>   Richards, New York Gov. Mario Cuomo, former Texas Railroad
>   Commission Chairwoman Lena Guererro and those of their ilk will be
>   in Clinton's Cabinet and on the Supreme Court.
>
>   Promise: Increases in the deficit, taxes, inflation rates,
>   interest rates, tax-supported social and environmental programs,
>   government spending with its attendant waste and fraud,
>   unemployment (except government), small-business failures and
>   government will be in our lives.
>
>   Promise: Decreases in real (net disposable) personal income,
>   housing starts, military strength, American prestige in the world,
>   our quality of life and our national sense of well-being (so
>   carefully nurtured back to life during the Reagan/Bush
>   administrations after the disastrous Carter years) will be a
>   reality.
>
>   Promise: There will be four years of a Washington
>   tragicomedy.
> ==================
>
> And there were 86 additional hits by the end of 1993.
>
> Larry
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 19:50:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:50:48 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Thursday's "Dilbert" strip has Dogbert committing "consult and blabbery":

-----
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20050616.html
"Incentivize the resources to grown their bandwidth to your end-state
vision. Don't open the kimono until you ping the change agent for a brain
dump and drill down to your core competencies."
-----

Coincidentally, Josh Fruhlinger on "The Comics Curmudgeon" site recently
mentioned the bizarre phrase "opening the kimono":

-----
http://joshreads.com/index.php?p=342
Back at the turn of the century, when I was working at a doomed San
Francisco dot-com, our CEO used to say that everything was about "dollars
and eyeballs." Our job, as he put it, was to "monetize eyeballs." (He also
referred to revealing our troubled financial situation to potential
investors as "opening the kimono," but that?s a traumatic story for a
different time.)
-----

Here's a definition from "The Microsoft Lexicon" (see also Susie Dent's
_The Language Report_ and Wordspy.com):

-----
http://www.cinepad.com/mslex_2.htm
Open The Kimono: A marvelous phrase of non-Microsoft origin, probably
stemming from the rash of Japanese acquisitions of American enterprises in
the '80s, that has been adopted into the Microspeak marketing lexicon.
Basically a somewhat sexist synonym for "open the books," it means to
reveal the inner workings of a project or company to a prospective new
partner.
-----

The earliest cite I've found is from 1984 (via ProQuest):

-----
http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?did=1279765&sid=1&Fmt=2&clientId=1564&RQT=309&VName=PQD
_PR Casebook_, Feb/Mar 1984, p. 14
"Opening the Kimono" in New Business Presentations
The phrase "opening the kimono" can mean 2 things in the context of public
relations (PR). It can mean being straightforward in client and media
relations, and it also applies to the issue of how far an agency should go
in new business presentations. The agency should have a sense of
responsibility to its clients during the time when the new business
presentation is being conceived. The agency should be particularly careful
not to open the kimono too far and make inflated promises leading to
inflated expectations, misunderstandings, disappointments, and a jaded
view of PR.
-----

In Paul Freiberger's 1984 book _Fire in the Valley: The Making of The
Personal Computer_, Steve Jobs recalls using the phrase in a 1979 meeting:

-----
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071358927/?v=search-inside&keywords=kimono
"I went down to Xerox Development Corporation," Jobs said, "which made all
of Xerox's venture investments, and I said, 'Look. I will let you invest a
million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono at Xerox
PARC.'"
-----

But according to one site  the
expression may date all the way back to the late '60s.

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 20:07:50 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:07:50 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:50:48 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>Thursday's "Dilbert" strip has Dogbert committing "consult and blabbery":
>
>-----
>http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20050616.html
>"Incentivize the resources to grown their bandwidth to your end-state
>vision. Don't open the kimono until you ping the change agent for a
>brain dump and drill down to your core competencies."
>-----

That's "grow", not "grown".

>In Paul Freiberger's 1984 book _Fire in the Valley: The Making of The
>Personal Computer_, Steve Jobs recalls using the phrase in a 1979
>meeting:
>
>-----
>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071358927/?v=search-inside&keywords=kimono
>"I went down to Xerox Development Corporation," Jobs said, "which made
>all of Xerox's venture investments, and I said, 'Look. I will let you
>invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono
>at Xerox PARC.'"
>-----

That's from the revised and extended second edition of the book in 2000,
so Jobs' recollection might not have been in the original 1984 edition.

--Ben Zimmer

From Larry at SCROGGS.COM  Fri Jun 17 20:20:04 2005
From: Larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:20:04 -0600
Subject: benny
Message-ID: 

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 17 20:28:05 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:28:05 -0500
Subject: Bennifer, the sequel
Message-ID: 

>
> This leads to the question: Was Bennifer the first of these
> pop culture show biz first name combinations? I doubt it, but i can't
> think of any earlier ones offhand.
>

Desi Arnaz + Lucille Ball = Desilu

It shows up in the newspapers in the early 1950s as a production
company; their house/ranch was named that by 1945 (from ProQuest
ChiTrib).

Then there's Pickfair, Mary Pickford's and Douglas Fairbanks' home, but
I don't know if the word was ever used to refer to the two of them.

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 17 20:56:36 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:56:36 -0500
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Maryland | Annapolis | Evening Capital | 1979-05-09
"Pledged projects get axed" by Jennifer Clough, p. 8 col 6.
" "We started four years ago with opening the kimono (budget book) and
now we're caught without our underwear," said Councilman Ronald C.
McGuirk, D-Glen Burnie."

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 17 21:18:03 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:18:03 -0400
Subject: chrononaut
In-Reply-To: <20050617040123.B1261B253A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

I mentioned the game "Chrononauts". Wilson wrote:
   >>>>>
Yes, it does sound like fun. Thanks for calling my/our? attention to
it. Hope it's still in print or whatever games are.
 <<<<<

Definitely. See http://wunderland.com/LooneyLabs/Chrononauts/Default.html.
(Looney Labs, the publisher, is a beautiful example of apt(r)onymy: Looney
really IS their last name!:
        Designed by Andrew Looney
        Produced by Kristin Looney
        Color Upgrade by Alison Frane
        Published by Looney Laboratories, Inc.
They are well known in the gaming world.)

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun 17 22:09:43 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:09:43 -0500
Subject: jerk water , gozen
Message-ID: 

jerk water, jerkwater -- OED has 1878 for the railroad sense and 1897 for the attributive, general sense

[railroad sense]
KENTUCKY.
New York Times; Sep 24, 1865; pg. 2 col 6.
"A little jerk-water engine, which looks as if it was stuck together simultaneously with the building of Noah's ark, runs "wild" through this wild region as often as they get a load of people and other things."

[attributive sense]

Nevada | Reno | Nevada State Journal | 1878-01-18 p. 2 col 2. "The Undeveloped Wealth of Humboldt County"
"Leaving the railroad at Mill City in company with an old friend, who has stuck to Humboldt through all her dark days, we bounced over twelve miles of rough road in a jerk-water stage wagon, that threatened to dislocate my spinal column in six different places at once."

Illinois | Decatur | The Decatur Morning Review | 1890-01-09 p. 2 col 1.  "An Old Chronic"
"He is a jerkwater politician who lives down on Spring Avenue,and who has an uncontrollable inclination to win bread by constantly crying out the very superior excellence of his particular brand of patriotism."

gozen -- not in OED

Nevada | Reno | Nevada State Journal | 1878-01-18 p. 2 col 2. "The Undeveloped Wealth of Humboldt County"
"Leaving this promising mine we passed half a mile further north up a steep hill aad long, narrow ravine, to a vein of what is known among miners as "gozen." This is a mixture of iron, lead and silver with vein matter and the whole completely oxydized. This gozen vein is ten or fifteen feet thick and is so soft that it can be almost shoveled out.

This is an odd little word -- I don't find it anywhere else in ProQuest, or the digitized historical newspapers of Colorado or Utah, either Making of America, or any other of the American databases I have access to.   But later on in the article, it refers to Cornish miners.  So it may be of English origin.

The [London] Times, Friday, Apr 15, 1825; pg. 2; Issue 12628; col A
     Cornwall and Devonshire Mining Company.-Capital, ?500,000, in 10,000 Shares of ?50 each.
Category: Classified Advertising
"I entertain a favourable result of these mines when put to work, from the appearance of the gozen or back of the veins, which, in my opinion are similar to those which have made considerable quantities of copper in depth."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 22:12:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:12:48 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:56:36 -0500, Mullins, Bill
 wrote:

>Maryland | Annapolis | Evening Capital | 1979-05-09
>"Pledged projects get axed" by Jennifer Clough, p. 8 col 6.
>" "We started four years ago with opening the kimono (budget book) and
>now we're caught without our underwear," said Councilman Ronald C.
>McGuirk, D-Glen Burnie."

Good find. I should also note that Alan Dundes and Robert A. Georges
recorded the bawdy book title, "The Open Kimono, by Seymour Hare," way
back in 1962 ("Some Minor Genres of Obscene Folklore," _Jrnl. Amer.
Folklore_ 75:226). In the same article, Dundes and Georges give a number
of "Wanton Daughter Puns," leading off with our old friend, "She was only
the stablekeeper's daughter, but all the horsemen knew 'er."

--Ben Zimmer

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 17 22:19:15 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:19:15 -0400
Subject: eggcorn?
Message-ID: 

On NPR this evening, reporting on a guilty verdict  just returned, several
references to "pre-emptory challenges" exercised in the jury selection.
A. Murie

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 17 23:14:13 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:14:13 -0400
Subject: "News is what makes you jump" and "Primarying"
In-Reply-To: <20050617130923.38131717.starquest@nycivic.org>
Message-ID: 

 There are a few good quotes/words here, maybe worth recording.
...
"News is what makes you jump."
"Primarying." (OED???)
"I never trust a man unless I've got his pecker in my pocket" (LBJ)

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry J. Stern 
To: bapopik at aol.com
Sent: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:16:34 -0700
Subject: The Buck Stops Here

SEE SHELLY SILVER MAKE THEM JUMP.
NEW YORK REMAINS THE ONLY STATE
WITH UNLIMITED VICARIOUS LIABILITY

By Henry J. Stern
June 17, 2005

Yesterday's Times contained an appalling story, mitigated only by the fact that some people, particularly insiders, are aware of this pattern of inappropriate legislative behavior, so it does not have the freshness needed to shock voters.  An editor, once asked to define news, said "News is what makes you jump."

Nonetheless, we think what is happening in the sewer called Albany is important, and you should understand it clearly.  A story by Al Baker which began at the top of  B1, the lead page of the Times' metro section, is more helpful than some political science textbooks in explaining the real world.

A bill, that has been proposed year after year in the State Assembly would end unlimited vicarious liability (UVL) in New York State.  The word 'vicarious' means: performed or suffered by one person as a substitute for another.  In this case, if a driver of a rented or leased car causes an accident for which he would be liable, the blame (and the damages) also fall upon the company that leased or rented the car.  That means "deep pockets"-- the judgment in any single case may be for millions of dollars, but if the driver can not pay it, the car renter or lessor must.

As a result of this rule, unique to New York State, car rentals and leases have become much more expensive.  Consequently, the number of transactions has sharply declined.  Consumers near the borders rent or lease from dealers in neighboring states.  Some dealers have gone out of business entirely.  Most major automobile manufacturers no longer lease cars in New York State.

Some lease arrangements have been structured as purchases, with an option to repurchase.  This avoids vicarious liability, but it makes the buyer, the lessee, responsible for paying state sales tax on the vehicle, which can run into thousands of dollars.

Why is New York State the only state in the nation with unlimited vicarious liability?  The State Senate has approved ending UVL in New York State.  But Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver will not even allow the bill to come to a vote in his chamber.

Maybe the reason is that Mr. Silver is not only Speaker of the Assembly, but also a participant in a major negligence law firm, Weitz & Luxenberg.  The amount of his compensation from the firm is not required to be made public, so no one is allowed to know it (except the IRS, and that is properly confidential.)  It is widely believed, however, that his take from the law firm far exceeds his Assembly salary, which is $121,000 (consisting of $79,500 for an Assemblymember, plus $41,500 for being Speaker).  He forgoes the $12,500 he would also receive for chairing the Rules Committee, which decides what legislation goes to the floor for consideration.

This situation is, in our opinion, horrific on its face.  The head of a legislative body is also an employee of a private corporation.  He uses his enormous influence to prevent the passage of legislation, approved in all 49 other states, which could adversely affect his private employer, in terms of prospective loss of business.  The phenomenon of conflict of interest is not unique in American politics.  What is remarkable here is the magnitude of the conflict, the enormous power of the Speaker, and the ease with which he can bend other Assemblymembers to his will, all of whom are independently elected public officials.  Many of them demonstrate in their votes the same level of independence as members of the former Supreme Soviet.

Some legislators are widely known to favor certain companies and the causes they support.  If the companies are in their district, their views may reflect parochialism which is understandable and reasonable if not ideal.

But there are other connections which are less wholesome than standing up for the home team, or the views of one's constituents.

These ties are formed by substantial campaign contributions, travel (including vacations and inspection trips at corporate expense), high-fee speaking engagements before trade associations, hiring relatives and friends of the legislator, straight-out bribes, or any other form of reward for a legislator who then can be considered bought and paid for.  This is part of the web of private and personal influence that controls so much legislative and executive behavior.

The incentive may not be financial at all: it could be the threat of political retaliation, what they call "primarying" an incumbent, or gerrymandering him out of his seat.  There are carrots as well as sticks: higher status and a larger lulu (payment in lieu of expenses) for a committee chair, or a post-legislative benefit such as nomination for a tranquil position on the bench, far removed from the burdens of seeking biennial reelection and soliciting campaign funds.

The talented  leader counts on legislators he can control.  As President Lyndon Johnson memorably said, "I never trust a man unless I've got his pecker in my pocket."

Baker tells us in the Times article that Senate Leader Joseph Bruno kills legislation that he disapproves of as effectively as Speaker Silver.  In the case Baker cites, concerning a bill to grant protection to smaller wetlands, there are interest groups on both sides, with environmentalists in support and local property owners opposed.

The effect of the bill Bruno quashed would have been to limit to a small extent individual rights to destroy natural beauty that they happen to 'own' legally, by purchase, marriage or inheritance.  Land ownership, beyond family farming, is a tenuous concept in a mutually-dependent environmentally-threatened planet.  Why should one person or corporation be legally entitled to blow up a great mountain, destroy a forest, or drain a lake?

With regard to the Assembly bill on vicarious liability, the opposition comes from trial lawyers, who would much rather sue cities, towns and private companies with deep pockets, than sue the persons who actually caused the damage by their dangerous driving.  In the end, of course, it is the rest of us who pay the huge judgments that juries may impose.  These mega-verdicts include the substantial share that plaintiffs' lawyers receive in contingent fees (based on the amount of the recovery rather than the hours of work performed), as well as their expenses, disbursements, etc.

We are particularly interested in hearing your views on the subject.  We will your post your responses on our blog, if you wish, or you can post them directly.  If you do not wish your response posted, advise us and your privacy will be totally respected.  If you have information on the situation described in this article, or you know of similar cases, please advise us directly or on the blog.  If you have any questions as to how this works, just ask us, by e-mail or by telephoning us at 212-564-4441.

We cannot conclude without sadly recalling that today, June 17, 2005, marks six years and one month since May 17, 1999, the day Speaker Silver used his remarkable powers over the hearts, minds and votes of his Assembly colleagues to force the repeal of the commuter income tax.  The levy had been collected for three decades, at the low rate of 45/100 of one per cent, on people who work in New York City but live elsewhere.  So far, that decision by the Speaker has cost the City of New York approximately three billion dollars.

Have a wonderful weekend.  The weather appears to be promising.    SQ

Henry J. Stern
starquest at nycivic.orgNew York Civic
520 Eighth Avenue
22nd Floor
New York, NY 10018
(212) 564-4441
(212) 564-5588 (fax)

www.nycivic.org

Change your subscription
http://www.nycivic.org/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Jun 17 23:47:34 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:47:34 -0400
Subject: "News is what makes you jump" and "Primarying"
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:14:13 -0400, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> There are a few good quotes/words here, maybe worth recording.
>...
>"News is what makes you jump."
>"Primarying." (OED???)
>
[...]
>
>The incentive may not be financial at all: it could be the threat of
>political retaliation, what they call "primarying" an incumbent, or
>gerrymandering him out of his seat.

Check the archives, Barry!

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502B&L=ads-l&P=R883

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 18 00:35:07 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:35:07 -0400
Subject: SummerStage (or, Summerstage)
Message-ID: 

SUMMERSTAGE--69,500 Google hits, 1,040 Google Groups hits
...
Central Park's "SummerStage" turns 20 years old. It's not in OED. It's not a trade name--there are other "Summerstage" events in other cities.
...
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1038/central-park-summerstage
...
...
MISC.:
The guard had a pocket thermometer and checked the temperature in all the hearing rooms. I "won"--my room was the worst. NY1 (www.ny1.com) had today's temperature as 72 F. My room was about 85 F. And all stale air, too. I feel that I'd surely remember all Ben Zimmer's posts if I had air.
...
...
http://www.summerstage.org/index1.aspx?BD=18889
?Central Park Summerstage: 20 Years From
The Heart Of New York City?

A unique photo exhibit highlighting many of the
memorable performances from Central Park SummerStage

June 9th ? June 30th
TIME WARNER CENTER

City Parks Foundation is pleased to announce, ?Central Park SummerStage: 20 Years From The Heart Of New York City,? a unique photo retrospective celebrating the history of one of the world?s most beloved performing arts festivals. The exhibit will be on display at the Samsung Experience in Time Warner Center, 10 Columbus Circle, 3rd Floor from June 9th through June 30th and has been made possible in part by Duggal Visual Solutions, Samsung Experience and The Shops at Columbus Circle at Time Warner Center.

Among the 54 stunning visual images on display will be photographs of Celia Cruz from her very last live performance, Buddy Guy, Annie Lennox, Lady Blacksmith Mambazo, Curtis Mayfield, and 2005 returning SummerStage performers Bill T. Jones, Cassandra Wilson and Elvis Costello, and many more. The art captures timeless moments that reflect the true spirit of SummerStage. The retrospective features a vast selection of insightful and evocative images from the past 19 seasons of SummerStage?s rich history.

Artwork has been provided by the following noted photojournalists: David Atlas, Jack Geshceidt, Hazel Hamiln, Cynthia Laron, Nan Melville, Sara Cedar Miller, Liz Reese, Jonathan Roth, Robert Smith, Billy Tompkins, and Jack Vartoogian, and others.

Since its humble beginnings in 1986, SummerStage has built a reputation of presenting cutting-edge, in-depth and thoughtful programming, showcasing the very best of both veteran and up-and-coming artists in popular music, world music, jazz, word, dance and film. In its history, Summerstage has presented a total of 1,513 diverse artist performances at 694 events, to more than 2.5 million people in Central Park.

...
...
...
12 June 1977, New York Times, pg. 453:
HARTFORD - "Sleuth," presented by Summerstage Tuesday through June 25. J.L. Goodwin Theater, Austin Arts Center, Trinity College.
...
...
6 April 1980, New York Times, pg. CN11:
Roger Shoemaker, producer at Summerstage, the summer theater at the Austin Arts Center of Trinity College in Hartford, is a professor of theater arts during the academic year.
...
...
2 June 1980, Chicago Tribune, "Mini-fests offer music for all tastes," pg. C1:
SummerStage '80, a day-long festival of special events and activities designed to herald the opening of the Grant Park Summer Concert Season will be held June 21 at various locations in the downtown area.
...
...
24 June 1984, New York Times, "Summer Theater Around the State" by Alvin Klein, pg. NJ11:
SUMMERSTAGE, Summerfun, SUmmer Festival. By any catch words, they add up to the season's ever-popular, mostly lightweight and almost universally unthreatening theater offerings.
...
...
MANHATTAN NEIGHBORHOODS

594 words
9 June 1986
Newsday
MANHATTAN
25
This Sunday at 2 p.m., Parks Commissioner Henry J. Stern will officially open the new series of free performances at the Central Park Bandshell on the Mall at 72nd Street.

"SummerStage will bring the best in the arts to New Yorkers for free, in the most elegant and accessible performance space in the city - Central Park," Stern said. "It gives all New Yorkers and visitors a chance to experience every art form from jazz to Japanese drumming and dance. Youngsters, seniors, picnickers, joggers, cyclists - all park and arts lovers are invited."

Sunday's opening will be part of an all-day festival called City Lore '86, a musical portrait of the cultural diversity of New York's neighborhoods, featuring Lion Dancers from Chinatown, Puerto Rican bomba and plena music by Los Plenaros De La 21 along with gospel, bagpipers, Irish stepdances, Ukranian lullabies and stilt walkers.

Among the events scheduled this summer are 7:30 p.m. performances by the New York City Grand Opera: "La Traviata" on July 17 and "Lucia Di Lammermoor" on July 31. A family series including such favorites as "Peter and the Wolf" and the Manhattan Brass Quintet will be held on Sundays from July 20th through Sept. 14, starting at 1 p.m.
...
...
1 August 1986, New York Times, "For 6 Weeks, Central Park Is Center Stage," pg. C1:
This is the first year for the pary's free SummerStage program, which is under the direction of Joe Killiam. "We're trying to recover the bandshell," Mr. Killian said, adding that performing in the mall dates back to the 1870's when concerts were staged in a pagoda, which was replaced in 1923 by the bandhsell.

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 18 01:44:10 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:44:10 -0400
Subject: "I do it because I can; I can because I want to; I want to
 because you told me I couldn't"
Message-ID: 

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?idS4272
Subject: Quote Attribution 
Category: Reference, Education and News 
Asked by: rolodex-ga 
List Price: $5.00 Posted: 17 Jun 2005 10:41 PDT 
Expires: 17 Jul 2005 10:41 PDT 
Question ID: 534272 

Who said, "I do it because I can, I can because I want to, I want to
because you told me I couldn't"
...
Subject: Re: Quote Attribution From: pinkfreud-ga on 17 Jun 2005 11:06 PDT   Several online citations attribute this to the punk group "Authority Zero.".........http://quickquotez.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1Quick QuotezQuotezBy Tigerbaby708Posted Saturday, November 29, 2003 on Quotez And ThingsDiscussion: Welcome ~so much attitude to little time !!!!!!! ~The lesson is in the struggle, not in the victory! -Friends are gods ways of apologizing for our families -The best man for a job is a woman -I can resist anything but temptation -I believe in angels, the Kind that heaven sends ...I'm surrounded By angels, but I call Them my best friends -lets discuss right and left, your right, i left -He who gossips to you gossips about you. -I ate my homework cuz it was a piece of cake -Ashes to Ashes Dust-to-Dust, Life is short so Party We must -Sticks and stones are hard on bones, aimed with angry art words can sting like anything, but silence breaks the heart... -Phyllis mcgenlee -"Give up for a second and that is where you will finish" -When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on. -- Thomas Jefferson -I'm an angel, honest! The horns are just there to keep the halo straight -Maybe this world is another planet's hell -A friend is someone who is there for you when he'd rather be somewhere else! -Life is the real test, and boys are extra credit! -It takes 42 muscels to smile, so instead pick up your middle finger and say bite me in a _____y tone! -Ok, ok ,ok ,ok i understand... Wait, what? -If at first you don't succeed, cheat, repeat until caught, and then lie! -"Behind every good man there is a good woman and behind that another man looking at her ass" ~*~ Excuse me, but my friend wants to know if you think I'm hot ~*~ Working hard for something you want is better than wishing for it *~Basketball isn't just an obsession...Its Life!* -im only a dog bcuz im faithful and loyal -I would tell you the truth but it would make you cry -If you can't say something funny about someone, don't say anything at all. -Organized people are just 2 lazy 2 look 4 things -Curiousity didn't kill the cat... curiousity made the kittens! -Good Times Bring Back Good Memories -Roses are red violets are blue god made me pretty what happened to you? -I will not come home drunk I will not come home drunk I will not drunk come home -If nothing changed, there'd be no butterflies -*When life closes a door. it opens a window..so jump* *I do it because I can* *I can because I want to* *I want to because you said I couldn't -I will not think of boys I will not think of boys I will not think of boys... wow that guy is hot! -Heidi909: i feel like a bad girl mommy i'm gonna get less toys for christmas now.. but santa might of had fun too.. ~Love Quotes~ A washer machine keeps going till its time to put it in the dryer but does real love work that way? It Finally Happened, That special someone I love, loves me too! You may be hott but I want some one with a great personality ~*Just ?ecause i flirt doesnt mean im interested*~ *I swear I wasn't talking to him, we were flirting.* Love starts with a hug, grows with a kiss, and ends with a tear! As I walked out the door, I knew that my heart would shut the door for me <3~Love...it's unexplainable...~<3 ~~**you can always start liking someone over and over again but you can never stop loving someone**~~ I wanted to kill the hottest person alive.... but then I relized! I would be single!!! I think about you day and night... I swear that your Mr. Right, I'll love you more then you'll ever know.. Baby, thats why I'll never letting ya go!! WhEn LiFe GiVeS yOu HOT gUyS, DATE THEM! I love him, O yes I do, He's for me, not for you, And if by chance you take my place, I'll take my fist and smash your face Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again....skinned knees are easier to fix than broken hearts! If you love someone put their name in a circle not a heart, a heart can be broken but a circle goes on forever When I first saw you I was afarid to talk to you*When i first talked to you I was afraid to like you*When i first liked you i was afarid to love you*Now that I love you I m afraid to lose you Loving *U* is like breathing...how can i stop if yOu ReAlLy LoVe SoMeThInG sEt iT fReE, iF iT cOmEs BaCk iT's YoUrS, iF iT dOeSn'T iT wAs NeVeR MeAnT tO Be Love Is When You Don't Want To Go To Sleep Because Reality Is Better Than A Dream If you love me like you told me please be careful with my heart you can take it; just don't break it or my world will fall apart dOn't settLe 4 the oNe yOu Can LiVe wiTh...wAit 4 tHe onE yOu Can't Live WithOut 

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 02:18:09 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:18:09 -0400
Subject: Milkshake
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$erbhrg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 11:00 AM, Katy Miller wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Katy Miller 
> Subject:      Milkshake
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> From today's Washington Post
>
> "Yet even after the personnel problems were smoothed out (and long
> before Beyonce released her solo album and was transformed into a
> single-named star with a milkshake to rival Jennifer Lopez and Kelis
> combined), she was the de facto Diana Ross of the group."
>
> Kelis' 2003 song "Milkshake," has the lyrics,
> "My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
> And their like
> It's better than yours,
> Damn right it's better than yours,
> I can teach you,
> But I have to charge"
>

"Milkshake" is the long form of the "shake" in the comment, "You want
fries with that shake?" It refers to the way that a girl's buttocks
move beneath her skirt/jeans/shorts. So, a paraphrase is something
like, "The movement of my buttocks beneath my skin-tight, camel-toe
skirt/jeans/booty shorts/etc. as I walk is so erotic that all the boys
follow me to see it."

-Wilson Gray

> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 02:53:05 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:53:05 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3rp6p8@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Thursday's "Dilbert" strip has Dogbert committing "consult and
> blabbery":
>
> -----
> http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20050616.html
> "Incentivize the resources to grown their bandwidth to your end-state
> vision. Don't open the kimono until you ping the change agent for a
> brain
> dump and drill down to your core competencies."
> -----
>
> Coincidentally, Josh Fruhlinger on "The Comics Curmudgeon" site
> recently
> mentioned the bizarre phrase "opening the kimono":
>
> -----
> http://joshreads.com/index.php?p=342
> Back at the turn of the century, when I was working at a doomed San
> Francisco dot-com, our CEO used to say that everything was about
> "dollars
> and eyeballs." Our job, as he put it, was to "monetize eyeballs." (He
> also
> referred to revealing our troubled financial situation to potential
> investors as "opening the kimono," but that?s a traumatic story for a
> different time.)
> -----
>
> Here's a definition from "The Microsoft Lexicon" (see also Susie Dent's
> _The Language Report_ and Wordspy.com):
>
> -----
> http://www.cinepad.com/mslex_2.htm
> Open The Kimono: A marvelous phrase of non-Microsoft origin, probably
> stemming from the rash of Japanese acquisitions of American
> enterprises in
> the '80s, that has been adopted into the Microspeak marketing lexicon.
> Basically a somewhat sexist

Isn't calling this phrase "sexist" a bit overly PC? Both men and women
wear kimonos and there's no obvious reason to assume that the kimono
being metaphorically opened is one worn by a woman.

-Wilson Gray

> synonym for "open the books," it means to
> reveal the inner workings of a project or company to a prospective new
> partner.
> -----
>
> The earliest cite I've found is from 1984 (via ProQuest):
>
> -----
> http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> did=1279765&sid=1&Fmt=2&clientId=1564&RQT=309&VName=PQD
> _PR Casebook_, Feb/Mar 1984, p. 14
> "Opening the Kimono" in New Business Presentations
> The phrase "opening the kimono" can mean 2 things in the context of
> public
> relations (PR). It can mean being straightforward in client and media
> relations, and it also applies to the issue of how far an agency
> should go
> in new business presentations. The agency should have a sense of
> responsibility to its clients during the time when the new business
> presentation is being conceived. The agency should be particularly
> careful
> not to open the kimono too far and make inflated promises leading to
> inflated expectations, misunderstandings, disappointments, and a jaded
> view of PR.
> -----
>
> In Paul Freiberger's 1984 book _Fire in the Valley: The Making of The
> Personal Computer_, Steve Jobs recalls using the phrase in a 1979
> meeting:
>
> -----
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071358927/?v=search-
> inside&keywords=kimono
> "I went down to Xerox Development Corporation," Jobs said, "which made
> all
> of Xerox's venture investments, and I said, 'Look. I will let you
> invest a
> million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono at Xerox
> PARC.'"
> -----
>
> But according to one site 
> the
> expression may date all the way back to the late '60s.
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 03:05:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:05:38 -0400
Subject: chrononaut
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$esa4en@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 5:18 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re: chrononaut
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I mentioned the game "Chrononauts". Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
> Yes, it does sound like fun. Thanks for calling my/our? attention to
> it. Hope it's still in print or whatever games are.
>  <<<<<
>
> Definitely. See
> http://wunderland.com/LooneyLabs/Chrononauts/Default.html.
> (Looney Labs, the publisher, is a beautiful example of apt(r)onymy:
> Looney
> really IS their last name!:
>         Designed by Andrew Looney
>         Produced by Kristin Looney
>         Color Upgrade by Alison Frane
>         Published by Looney Laboratories, Inc.
> They are well known in the gaming world.)
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

Thanks, Mark.

-Wilson

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 03:11:42 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:11:42 -0400
Subject: jerk water , gozen
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ese05n@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 6:09 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      jerk water , gozen
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> jerk water, jerkwater -- OED has 1878 for the railroad sense and 1897
> for the attributive, general sense
>
> [railroad sense]
> KENTUCKY.
> New York Times; Sep 24, 1865; pg. 2 col 6.
> "A little jerk-water engine, which looks as if it was stuck together
> simultaneously with the building of Noah's ark, runs "wild" through
> this wild region as often as they get a load of people and other
> things."
>
> [attributive sense]
>
> Nevada | Reno | Nevada State Journal | 1878-01-18 p. 2 col 2. "The
> Undeveloped Wealth of Humboldt County"
> "Leaving the railroad at Mill City in company with an old friend, who
> has stuck to Humboldt through all her dark days, we bounced over
> twelve miles of rough road in a jerk-water stage wagon, that
> threatened to dislocate my spinal column in six different places at
> once."
>
> Illinois | Decatur | The Decatur Morning Review | 1890-01-09 p. 2 col
> 1.  "An Old Chronic"
> "He is a jerkwater politician who lives down on Spring Avenue,and who
> has an uncontrollable inclination to win bread by constantly crying
> out the very superior excellence of his particular brand of
> patriotism."
>
> gozen -- not in OED
>
> Nevada | Reno | Nevada State Journal | 1878-01-18 p. 2 col 2. "The
> Undeveloped Wealth of Humboldt County"
> "Leaving this promising mine we passed half a mile further north up a
> steep hill aad long, narrow ravine, to a vein of what is known among
> miners as "gozen." This is a mixture of iron, lead and silver with
> vein matter and the whole completely oxydized. This gozen vein is ten
> or fifteen feet thick and is so soft that it can be almost shoveled
> out.
>
> This is an odd little word -- I don't find it anywhere else in
> ProQuest, or the digitized historical newspapers of Colorado or Utah,
> either Making of America, or any other of the American databases I
> have access to.   But later on in the article, it refers to Cornish
> miners.  So it may be of English origin.

Uh, with respect to Cornish, that's "... may be of _British_ origin."
given that Cornish is a Celtic language.

-Wilson Gray

>
> The [London] Times, Friday, Apr 15, 1825; pg. 2; Issue 12628; col A
>      Cornwall and Devonshire Mining Company.-Capital, ?500,000, in
> 10,000 Shares of ?50 each.
> Category: Classified Advertising
> "I entertain a favourable result of these mines when put to work, from
> the appearance of the gozen or back of the veins, which, in my opinion
> are similar to those which have made considerable quantities of copper
> in depth."
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 03:25:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:25:53 -0400
Subject: SummerStage (or, Summerstage)
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3sf8rn@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 8:35 PM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      SummerStage (or, Summerstage)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> SUMMERSTAGE--69,500 Google hits, 1,040 Google Groups hits
> ...
> Central Park's "SummerStage" turns 20 years old. It's not in OED. It's
> not a trade name--there are other "Summerstage" events in other
> cities.
> ...
> http://www.barrypopik.com/article/1038/central-park-summerstage
> ...
> ...
> MISC.:
> The guard had a pocket thermometer and checked the temperature in all
> the hearing rooms. I "won"--my room was the worst. NY1 (www.ny1.com)
> had today's temperature as 72 F. My room was about 85 F. And all stale
> air, too. I feel that I'd surely remember all Ben Zimmer's posts if I
> had air.
> ...
> ...
> http://www.summerstage.org/index1.aspx?BD=18889
> ?Central Park Summerstage: 20 Years From
> The Heart Of New York City?
>
> A unique photo exhibit highlighting many of the
> memorable performances from Central Park SummerStage
>
> June 9th ? June 30th
> TIME WARNER CENTER
>
> City Parks Foundation is pleased to announce, ?Central Park
> SummerStage: 20 Years From The Heart Of New York City,? a unique photo
> retrospective celebrating the history of one of the world?s most
> beloved performing arts festivals. The exhibit will be on display at
> the Samsung Experience in Time Warner Center, 10 Columbus Circle, 3rd
> Floor from June 9th through June 30th and has been made possible in
> part by Duggal Visual Solutions, Samsung Experience and The Shops at
> Columbus Circle at Time Warner Center.
>
> Among the 54 stunning visual images on display will be photographs of
> Celia Cruz from her very last live performance, Buddy Guy, Annie
> Lennox, Lady Blacksmith Mambazo,

Shouldn't that be _Ladysmith Black Mambozo_?

-Wilson Gray

> Curtis Mayfield, and 2005 returning SummerStage performers Bill T.
> Jones, Cassandra Wilson and Elvis Costello, and many more. The art
> captures timeless moments that reflect the true spirit of SummerStage.
> The retrospective features a vast selection of insightful and
> evocative images from the past 19 seasons of SummerStage?s rich
> history.
>
> Artwork has been provided by the following noted photojournalists:
> David Atlas, Jack Geshceidt, Hazel Hamiln, Cynthia Laron, Nan
> Melville, Sara Cedar Miller, Liz Reese, Jonathan Roth, Robert Smith,
> Billy Tompkins, and Jack Vartoogian, and others.
>
> Since its humble beginnings in 1986, SummerStage has built a
> reputation of presenting cutting-edge, in-depth and thoughtful
> programming, showcasing the very best of both veteran and
> up-and-coming artists in popular music, world music, jazz, word, dance
> and film. In its history, Summerstage has presented a total of 1,513
> diverse artist performances at 694 events, to more than 2.5 million
> people in Central Park.
>
> ...
> ...
> ...
> 12 June 1977, New York Times, pg. 453:
> HARTFORD - "Sleuth," presented by Summerstage Tuesday through June 25.
> J.L. Goodwin Theater, Austin Arts Center, Trinity College.
> ...
> ...
> 6 April 1980, New York Times, pg. CN11:
> Roger Shoemaker, producer at Summerstage, the summer theater at the
> Austin Arts Center of Trinity College in Hartford, is a professor of
> theater arts during the academic year.
> ...
> ...
> 2 June 1980, Chicago Tribune, "Mini-fests offer music for all
> tastes," pg. C1:
> SummerStage '80, a day-long festival of special events and activities
> designed to herald the opening of the Grant Park Summer Concert Season
> will be held June 21 at various locations in the downtown area.
> ...
> ...
> 24 June 1984, New York Times, "Summer Theater Around the State"
> by Alvin Klein, pg. NJ11:
> SUMMERSTAGE, Summerfun, SUmmer Festival. By any catch words, they add
> up to the season's ever-popular, mostly lightweight and almost
> universally unthreatening theater offerings.
> ...
> ...
> MANHATTAN NEIGHBORHOODS
>
> 594 words
> 9 June 1986
> Newsday
> MANHATTAN
> 25
> This Sunday at 2 p.m., Parks Commissioner Henry J. Stern will
> officially open the new series of free performances at the Central
> Park Bandshell on the Mall at 72nd Street.
>
> "SummerStage will bring the best in the arts to New Yorkers for free,
> in the most elegant and accessible performance space in the city -
> Central Park," Stern said. "It gives all New Yorkers and visitors a
> chance to experience every art form from jazz to Japanese drumming and
> dance. Youngsters, seniors, picnickers, joggers, cyclists - all park
> and arts lovers are invited."
>
> Sunday's opening will be part of an all-day festival called City Lore
> '86, a musical portrait of the cultural diversity of New York's
> neighborhoods, featuring Lion Dancers from Chinatown, Puerto Rican
> bomba and plena music by Los Plenaros De La 21 along with gospel,
> bagpipers, Irish stepdances, Ukranian lullabies and stilt walkers.
>
> Among the events scheduled this summer are 7:30 p.m. performances by
> the New York City Grand Opera: "La Traviata" on July 17 and "Lucia Di
> Lammermoor" on July 31. A family series including such favorites as
> "Peter and the Wolf" and the Manhattan Brass Quintet will be held on
> Sundays from July 20th through Sept. 14, starting at 1 p.m.
> ...
> ...
> 1 August 1986, New York Times, "For 6 Weeks, Central Park Is
> Center Stage," pg. C1:
> This is the first year for the pary's free SummerStage program, which
> is under the direction of Joe Killiam. "We're trying to recover the
> bandshell," Mr. Killian said, adding that performing in the mall dates
> back to the 1870's when concerts were staged in a pagoda, which was
> replaced in 1923 by the bandhsell.
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 03:40:03 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:40:03 -0700
Subject: eggcorn?
Message-ID: 

I've heard this so often it no longer registers.  Google provides about 200 exx.

JL

sagehen  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: eggcorn?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On NPR this evening, reporting on a guilty verdict just returned, several
references to "pre-emptory challenges" exercised in the jury selection.
A. Murie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 18 04:35:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:35:57 EDT
Subject: Univ. of Chicago responds,
 says taking my "Windy City" work without credit is OK
Message-ID: 

Yeah, not even a damn penny, and not an ounce, not a drop of respect or  
kindness! After ten years!
...
...
_http://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/6.html_ 
(http://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/6.html) 
 Early uses of the term appear in Cleveland (1885) and Louisville  (1886) 
newspapers, and the 1885 appearance of the label in a headline suggests  the 
possibility that this was not its initial invocation. It may well have been  
Chicago's urban rivals who coined a nickname, in derision, which has come to be  
adopted with pride. 
...
...
_http://www.barrypopik.com/article/942/2005-update-university-of-chicago-encyc
lopedia-of-chicago_ 
(http://www.barrypopik.com/article/942/2005-update-university-of-chicago-encyclopedia-of-chicago) 
> The ?Windy City? entry in the Encyclopedia of Chicago was assigned to  
someone 
who had no business writing it. In the 2003 letter (attached below),  it was 
admitted by Managing Editor Douglas Knox that my work had basically  been ?
used? 
without credit or compensation. The Encyclopedia?s ?Windy City?  entry didn?
t 
mention the Charles Dana myth at all. It used my 1885 citation  in an 
illustration, then used my 1886 Louisville citation.
...
...
THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL
Russell J. Herron
Associate General Counsel
...
June 13, 2005
...
Dear Mr. Popik:
...
I am responding to your e-mail message of May 29, 2005, to Don Michael  
Randel, Gregory A. Jackson, Henry S. Webber, and Kineret S. Jaffe regarding the  
"Windy City" entry in the _Encyclopedia of Chicago_.
...
The compilers of the _Encyclopedia_ appreciated your bringing to their  
attention the fact that the term "windy city" was used in the _Cleveland Gazette  
in 1885. They subsequently verified this reference in the publicly available,  
online archives of the Ohio Historical Society, and included the information 
in  the published entry.
...
The fact that you were not credited with bringing this information to their  
attention, however, does not constitute plagiarism. No individual can 
copyright  a fact, much less a publicly available one, and the entry does not include 
any  text or other material that was plagiarized (i.e., copied without proper  
attribution) from your writings. Moreover, reference works such as the  
_Encyclopedia_ are designed to present general information about a topic to the  
reading public, not to itemize the many individuals who are responsible for  
bringing this information to light.
...
Please note as well that the _Encyclopedia_ entry does not falsely  attribute 
the origins of the term "windy city" to Charles A. Dana.
...
Finally, the University of Chicago Press did not publish the online edition  
of the _Encyclopedia_, and has no responsibility for its contents. You should  
direct your future inquiries about this edition to the Chicago Historical  
Society.
...
Sincerely,
Russell J. Herron
...
...
And so it goes.
...
"...the entry does not include any text or other material that was  
plagiarized (i.e., copied without proper attribution) from your writings."
There was no mention of the 1886 Louisville citation. That would look bad,  
so let's not discuss it. But the fact is that I found the first citation cited, 
 I found the second citation cited, I made the scholarly conclusion long ago 
that  the term came from the Midwest and had nothing to do with New York City, 
and all  of that was used without credit and without compensation.
...
I also disagree that the University of Chicago has "no responsibility" for  
the online edition of its _Encyclopedia_ that was reprinted in a different  
medium without any change whatsoever, bearing the same name. I had told the  
University of Chicago to contact the Chicago Historical Society for me  about this 
matter, but that would constitute a favor, and that is something that  no one 
in Chicago can do.
...
No mention was made that I have even better information, and that Chicago  
deserves to be told about it.
...
This is a disgrace, both to me and to Chicago.
...
...
Barry Popik
(Unbelievably kind friend of Chicago)
_www.barrypopik.com_ (http://www.barrypopik.com) 
...

From jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM  Sat Jun 18 05:14:41 2005
From: jabeca at DRIZZLE.COM (James Callan)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:14:41 -0700
Subject: Eggcorn: downright >> darn right
Message-ID: 

Lots of hits on Google:

"Carrying a backpack with a sunburned back or shoulders will be darn
right painful."
(http://www.travellady.com/ARTICLES/article-beingwell.html)

About Vicks VapoRub:
"Ahh! Icy cool. Just like a Peppermint Patty. Is this soothing or darn
right uncomfortable?"
(http://www.epinions.com/content_7056297604)

"Adventure is the key to a full, rich life. When broadly defined, it
can be incorporated in every nook and cranny of a person's being.
Adventure is electrifying, energizing and, well... darn right scary at
times."
(http://www.artjam.org/press09.99.html)

"The  skiing, even during good snow conditions, is challenging.  During
bad snow conditions it can be darn right dangerous."
(http://www.bigskyfishing.com/Montana-Info/skiing-big-mountain-3.shtm)

        -- James Callan

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 18 05:32:24 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:32:24 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:53:05 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>On Jun 17, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>> Here's a definition from "The Microsoft Lexicon" (see also Susie Dent's
>> _The Language Report_ and Wordspy.com):
>>
>> -----
>> http://www.cinepad.com/mslex_2.htm
>> Open The Kimono: A marvelous phrase of non-Microsoft origin, probably
>> stemming from the rash of Japanese acquisitions of American
>> enterprises in the '80s, that has been adopted into the Microspeak
>> marketing lexicon. Basically a somewhat sexist synonym for "open the
>> books," it means to reveal the inner workings of a project or company
>> to a prospective new partner.
>
>Isn't calling this phrase "sexist" a bit overly PC? Both men and women
>wear kimonos and there's no obvious reason to assume that the kimono
>being metaphorically opened is one worn by a woman.

I'd say that in the American consciousness, the opening of kimonos would
be overwhelmingly associated with geishas and other iconic depictions of
Japanese women conforming to a coy, submissive stereotype. Or at least
this was probably true c. 1980 when the term was popularized. (I believe
the popular _Shogun_ miniseries of the time had a kimono-opening scene.)

Remember also that the expression was coined in a male-dominated business
world where one might expect a fair amount of sexist language. The
"Buzzkiller" contributor who recalled the phrase from the late '60s said
that it was "a more colorful alternative to 'lifting the skirt' - the
obvious reference to tantalizing a prospect with a peek at the wares."

But yeah, in theory, kimono-opening is non-gender-specific, as in this
JSTOR cite from 1959 (U. A. Casal, "The Goblin Fox and Badger and Other
Witch Animals of Japan," _Folklore Studies_ 18:84):

-----
Apparently it was believed of old that the wolf was shameful of sexual
things, having no strong sexual instincts. He would never disclose his
organ, but hide it behind his hanging tail. Should a person perchance see
his sexual act, he or she would have to open the kimono and disclose his
or her own organ, so as not to shame the wolf.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sat Jun 18 05:41:25 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:41:25 -0500
Subject: Milkshake
Message-ID: 

> "The movement of my buttocks beneath my skin-tight, camel-toe
>skirt. . . . 
>-Wilson Gray

Camel-toe skirt??  I thought only pants/shorts could have this 
feature. . . 

(and when will OED include "camel-toe"????)

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sat Jun 18 05:47:02 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:47:02 -0500
Subject: jerk water , gozen
Message-ID: 

>Uh, with respect to Cornish, that's "... may be of _British_ origin."
>given that Cornish is a Celtic language.
>
>-Wilson Gray

Point taken !

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 06:38:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:38:18 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <44774u$3t1m4b@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 18, 2005, at 1:32 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:53:05 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 17, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>> Here's a definition from "The Microsoft Lexicon" (see also Susie
>>> Dent's
>>> _The Language Report_ and Wordspy.com):
>>>
>>> -----
>>> http://www.cinepad.com/mslex_2.htm
>>> Open The Kimono: A marvelous phrase of non-Microsoft origin, probably
>>> stemming from the rash of Japanese acquisitions of American
>>> enterprises in the '80s, that has been adopted into the Microspeak
>>> marketing lexicon. Basically a somewhat sexist synonym for "open the
>>> books," it means to reveal the inner workings of a project or company
>>> to a prospective new partner.
>>
>> Isn't calling this phrase "sexist" a bit overly PC? Both men and women
>> wear kimonos and there's no obvious reason to assume that the kimono
>> being metaphorically opened is one worn by a woman.
>
> I'd say that in the American consciousness, the opening of kimonos
> would
> be overwhelmingly associated with geishas and other iconic depictions
> of
> Japanese women conforming to a coy, submissive stereotype. Or at least
> this was probably true c. 1980 when the term was popularized. (I
> believe
> the popular _Shogun_ miniseries of the time had a kimono-opening
> scene.)
>
> Remember also that the expression was coined in a male-dominated
> business
> world where one might expect a fair amount of sexist language. The
> "Buzzkiller" contributor who recalled the phrase from the late '60s
> said
> that it was "a more colorful alternative to 'lifting the skirt' - the
> obvious reference to tantalizing a prospect with a peek at the wares."
>
> But yeah, in theory, kimono-opening is non-gender-specific, as in this
> JSTOR cite from 1959 (U. A. Casal, "The Goblin Fox and Badger and Other
> Witch Animals of Japan," _Folklore Studies_ 18:84):
>
> -----
> Apparently it was believed of old that the wolf was shameful of sexual
> things, having no strong sexual instincts. He would never disclose his
> organ, but hide it behind his hanging tail. Should a person perchance
> see
> his sexual act, he or she would have to open the kimono and disclose
> his
> or her own organ, so as not to shame the wolf.
> -----
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

If a person knows the full background of a term, there may be some
reason for that person to give that term a label like "sexist." But
suppose a person has no idea of a term's history and uses the term
simply because other people use it. Would such a person be sexist?

There are terms from black slang used by white kids, which terms are
too stunningly obscene to us black senior citizens to be used by girls
and women. "Boody"/"Booty" and "funk" are but two examples. Hearing
someone say out loud on the street, "Oh, those shoes so funky!" or "I
think I have a nice booty" grosses me out. When I was a teenager, girls
weren't even supposed to know those words, let alone use them in
public. Even for a guy to use such words out loud in public was
disrespectful and evidence of a total lack of "background." But to the
white teenaged girls using them nowadays, they're merely words like
other words. Should such girls be condemned as foul-mouthed slatterns
for what they don't know?

That's why I feel that condemning the "kimono" bit as sexist is
somewhat extreme. If your sole reason for using the term is that you
know its sexist history, yes, I'd call that sexist. But if you're using
the term in all innocence, there shouldn't be a problem.

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Jun 18 06:41:03 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:41:03 -0400
Subject: Milkshake
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$etdoom@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 18, 2005, at 1:41 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      Re: Milkshake
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> "The movement of my buttocks beneath my skin-tight, camel-toe
>> skirt. . . .=20
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> Camel-toe skirt??  I thought only pants/shorts could have this=20
> feature. . .=20
>
> (and when will OED include "camel-toe"????)
>

My bad.

-Wilson Gray

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 18 08:29:23 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:29:23 EDT
Subject: Rogue Wave (1921)
Message-ID: 

ROGUE WAVE--183,000 Google hits, 22,900 Google Groups hits
...
"Rogue wave" is not in the OED?
...
"Passengers file lawsuits over 'rogue wave' ship" was in amNew York, June
17-19, 2005, pg. 4 ,col. 2.
...
ProQuest has a near-50-year gap?...Rogues wave at you? Didn't John Cleese  do
a "rogue wave" with one of his silly walks?
...
...
(GOOGLE AND GOOLE GROUPS)
...
_Cruise  ship damaged by 70-foot rogue wave_
(http://www.newstarget.com/007189.html)
Cruise ship damaged by 70-foot rogue wave. After  enduring some rough seas,
passengers on the 1000-foot cruise ship  Norwegian Dawn thought that there
was ...
www.newstarget.com/007189.html - 22k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:iC5GrFjtO6wJ:www.newstarget.com/007189.html+"rogue+wave"+and+cruise&hl
=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.newstarget.com/007189.html)
...
_Rogue Wave--Cruise  Ships_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/43ea0f65a0ce44ea/c173437cd0ff1405?q="rogue+wave"&rn
um=10&hl=en#c173437cd0ff1405)
In article  , nospam at nospam.
com  says... (Really big snip) I don't believe for a minute ...
_rec.boats.cruising_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising?hl=en)  -  Apr 20, 11:06 am by Gogarty  - 9 messages - 5 authors
...
...
_http://www.answers.com/topic/freak-wave_
(http://www.answers.com/topic/freak-wave)

freak  wave

Freak waves, also known as rogue waves or monster waves,  are relatively
large and spontaneous _ocean surface waves_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ocean+surface+wave&gwp=8&curta
b=2222_1&sbid=lc02a)  which can sink  even medium-large _ships_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ship&
gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a) . Once thought to be only _legendary_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey
=Legend&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a) , they are now known to be a
_natural_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Nature&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a)  (although relatively rare)
_ocean_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ocean&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a)  phenomenon. Their
existence was  known anecdotally from mariners' testimonies and damages inflicted
on ships,  however their scientific measurement was only positively confirmed
following  measurements of a freak wave at the Drauper oil platform in the
North Sea on _January 1_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=January+1&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a) ,
_1995_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1995&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a) .
Disputes as to their existence were finally laid to rest in _2004_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=20
04&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a) , when Project MaxWave, and the GKSS
Research Centre, using data collected by _ESA_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=European+Space+Agency&gwp=8
&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a)  _satellites_
(http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=9bb8iih4irs0k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Satellite&gwp=8&curtab=2222_
1&sbid=lc02a) , identified many dozens of  such waves during a study.
They are a likely source of the sudden inexplicable disappearance of many
ocean-going vessels.

...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Barrow  County Citizen Bewails Rogue Wave_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=515956762&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName
=HNP&TS=1119082428&clientId=65882)
W A HARBER.  The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Mar  3,
1921. p. 8 (1 page)
...
_Brenton  Battles Sea's Full Fury_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=580113662&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1
119082428&clientId=65882)
FRANCIS BRENTON. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 1,
1968. p. 1 (3 pages)

From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU  Sat Jun 18 10:26:25 2005
From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:26:25 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Jun 2005 to 17 Jun 2005 (#2005-169)
In-Reply-To: <200506180406.j5I3FSnd123040@f05n16.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 12:00 AM 6/18/2005, Ben wrote:
>Thursday's "Dilbert" strip has Dogbert committing "consult and blabbery":
>
>-----
>http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20050616.html
>"Incentivize the resources to grow their bandwidth to your end-state
>vision. Don't open the kimono until you ping the change agent for a brain
>dump and drill down to your core competencies."
>-----

My work at Wayne is only half-time in Linguistics--the other half of me
works for Computing and Information Technology, where I serve on the
'Leadership Team' as Faculty Advisor and Security Policy Director.  Not
only does the CIO (my boss) talk that way, I actually understand everything
in those two sentences.  This is a frightening thought.

Geoff
Geoffrey S. Nathan
Department of English/Computing and Information Technology
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI, 48202

Phones:  C&IT (313) 577-1259/English (313) 577-8621

From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 11:49:24 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:49:24 -0700
Subject: Bennifer, the sequel
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D9FDC12@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

I heard on an entertainment news show yesterday, 'Tomkat' for Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
>
> This leads to the question: Was Bennifer the first of these
> pop culture show biz first name combinations? I doubt it, but i can't
> think of any earlier ones offhand.
>

Desi Arnaz + Lucille Ball = Desilu

It shows up in the newspapers in the early 1950s as a production
company; their house/ranch was named that by 1945 (from ProQuest
ChiTrib).

Then there's Pickfair, Mary Pickford's and Douglas Fairbanks' home, but
I don't know if the word was ever used to refer to the two of them.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 12:23:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:23:17 -0700
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Wilson is right, but I'd go further.

"Sexist" and, yes, "racist,"  are words that cover such broad domains that simply designating someone or something as "racist" or "sexist" unhelpfully lumps together very different extremes that a careful thinker needs to keep separate.

Singling out women to be burned as witches is "sexist"; so is the phrase "open the kimono."
Actions like enslaving Africans, exterminating Jews, and urging the killing of Americans "wherever you may find them" are "racist"; so are minor cultural artifacts like "Amos 'n' Andy," stereotypes of "Jewish mothers," and the phrase "camel jockey."

It was useful forty years ago to identify unremarked examples of racism and sexism, when it was not widely recognized just how pervasive such attitudes are. It remains obligatory in blatant cases where ignorant or supremacist attitudes cause enduring harm to real people.  But ferreting out trivial examples of "racism" or "sexism" in conventional linguistic idioms seems patronizing to me, and as often as not can be a cheap way of saying, "I'm so much more sensitive than you are."

One may argue, of course, that there are no "trivial" examples of racism and sexism. Yet it seems to me that bad taste and stupidity will be with us always, and that our energies are better directed toward improving the big picture rather than attempting to micromanage the nation's store of sophomoric humor.

Finally, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, I'm not saying "Tough noogies!" to people who are truly offended by verbal examples I consider "trivial." What I am saying is that "racism" and "sexism" are powerful and valuable English words which shouldn't themselves be trivialized through gratuitous use.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 18, 2005, at 1:32 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:53:05 -0400, Wilson Gray
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 17, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>> Here's a definition from "The Microsoft Lexicon" (see also Susie
>>> Dent's
>>> _The Language Report_ and Wordspy.com):
>>>
>>> -----
>>> http://www.cinepad.com/mslex_2.htm
>>> Open The Kimono: A marvelous phrase of non-Microsoft origin, probably
>>> stemming from the rash of Japanese acquisitions of American
>>> enterprises in the '80s, that has been adopted into the Microspeak
>>> marketing lexicon. Basically a somewhat sexist synonym for "open the
>>> books," it means to reveal the inner workings of a project or company
>>> to a prospective new partner.
>>
>> Isn't calling this phrase "sexist" a bit overly PC? Both men and women
>> wear kimonos and there's no obvious reason to assume that the kimono
>> being metaphorically opened is one worn by a woman.
>
> I'd say that in the American consciousness, the opening of kimonos
> would
> be overwhelmingly associated with geishas and other iconic depictions
> of
> Japanese women conforming to a coy, submissive stereotype. Or at least
> this was probably true c. 1980 when the term was popularized. (I
> believe
> the popular _Shogun_ miniseries of the time had a kimono-opening
> scene.)
>
> Remember also that the expression was coined in a male-dominated
> business
> world where one might expect a fair amount of sexist language. The
> "Buzzkiller" contributor who recalled the phrase from the late '60s
> said
> that it was "a more colorful alternative to 'lifting the skirt' - the
> obvious reference to tantalizing a prospect with a peek at the wares."
>
> But yeah, in theory, kimono-opening is non-gender-specific, as in this
> JSTOR cite from 1959 (U. A. Casal, "The Goblin Fox and Badger and Other
> Witch Animals of Japan," _Folklore Studies_ 18:84):
>
> -----
> Apparently it was believed of old that the wolf was shameful of sexual
> things, having no strong sexual instincts. He would never disclose his
> organ, but hide it behind his hanging tail. Should a person perchance
> see
> his sexual act, he or she would have to open the kimono and disclose
> his
> or her own organ, so as not to shame the wolf.
> -----
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

If a person knows the full background of a term, there may be some
reason for that person to give that term a label like "sexist." But
suppose a person has no idea of a term's history and uses the term
simply because other people use it. Would such a person be sexist?

There are terms from black slang used by white kids, which terms are
too stunningly obscene to us black senior citizens to be used by girls
and women. "Boody"/"Booty" and "funk" are but two examples. Hearing
someone say out loud on the street, "Oh, those shoes so funky!" or "I
think I have a nice booty" grosses me out. When I was a teenager, girls
weren't even supposed to know those words, let alone use them in
public. Even for a guy to use such words out loud in public was
disrespectful and evidence of a total lack of "background." But to the
white teenaged girls using them nowadays, they're merely words like
other words. Should such girls be condemned as foul-mouthed slatterns
for what they don't know?

That's why I feel that condemning the "kimono" bit as sexist is
somewhat extreme. If your sole reason for using the term is that you
know its sexist history, yes, I'd call that sexist. But if you're using
the term in all innocence, there shouldn't be a problem.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 12:39:36 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:39:36 -0700
Subject: "Shade-tree," adj.
Message-ID: 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 12:46:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:46:46 -0700
Subject: "shade-tree," adj.
Message-ID: 

OED doesn't list the Southern phrase, "shade-tree mechanic," meaning "an amateur mechanic who stereotypically works in the shade of backyard trees."

"Shade-tree," adj., has now been used to mean "amateur," with a broader application :

2000 James V. Smith, Jr. _Force Recon : Death Wind_ (N.Y.: Berkley, 2000) 207 And he knew enough shade-tree psychology to know that he would return to being a smart-ass.

JL

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 18 15:57:00 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:57:00 -0700
Subject: Eggcorn: downright >> darn right
In-Reply-To: <71da2fe269f3714637641a84384faf00@drizzle.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 10:14 PM, James Callan wrote:

> Lots of hits on Google:...

nice one.  now added to the eggcorn database:
   http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/384/darn-right/

arnold

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 18 16:25:14 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:25:14 -0700
Subject: eggcorn?
In-Reply-To: <20050618034003.65029.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 8:40 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> I've heard this so often it no longer registers.  Google provides
> about 200 exx.
>
> JL
>
> sagehen  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: sagehen
> Subject: eggcorn?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> On NPR this evening, reporting on a guilty verdict just returned,
> several
> references to "pre-emptory challenges" exercised in the jury
> selection.
> A. Murie

now added to the eggcorn database, with credit to Murie (and a quote
from Paul Brians):
   http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/385/pre-emptory-preemptory/

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 18 17:58:39 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:58:39 -0400
Subject: "shade-tree," adj.
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:46:46 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>OED doesn't list the Southern phrase, "shade-tree mechanic," meaning
>"an amateur mechanic who stereotypically works in the shade of backyard
>trees."
>
>"Shade-tree," adj., has now been used to mean "amateur," with a broader
>application :
>
>2000 James V. Smith, Jr. _Force Recon : Death Wind_ (N.Y.: Berkley,
>2000) 207 And he knew enough shade-tree psychology to know that he
>would return to being a smart-ass.

Did this start off as a Texan expression?  The earliest cites I can find
on Newspaperarchive are all from Texas papers.

* shade-tree engineer

-----
1953 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Tex.) 5 May 3/1 Drillers started
working on the test hole Sunday, and by Monday there was quite a group of
shade tree engineers offering advice, criticism and suggestions as to
where the well should have been drilled, how deep it should go and what
kind of water could be expected. ... "You will have to go down 360 feet to
find water in this location," one of the shade tree engineers told the
driller.
-----

* shade-tree mechanic

-----
1957 _Commerce Journal_ (Commerce, Tex.) 30 Jul. 1/1 Local officers were
of the opinion color and model of the vehicle would prevent extensive joy
riding, although it was pointed out that such cars are prized by youthful
shade-tree mechanics who convert in to hot-rod racing cars.
-----
1958 _Panola Watchman_ (Carthage, Tex.) 25 Sep. 5/1 The simple mechanism
of the model "A" made it possible for any shade tree mechanic to repair it
only with a knuckle busting wrench, a pair of pliers, and an adequate
supply of bailing wire.
-----

* shade-tree beauty operator (nonce form)

-----
1958 _Commerce Journal_ (Commerce. Tex.) 3 Jul. 2/1 Shade tree beauty
operators come off second best in a hair-dyeing rally staged Monday
afternoon.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Jun 18 18:30:56 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:30:56 -0400
Subject: "shade-tree," adj.
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:58:39 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:46:46 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>>OED doesn't list the Southern phrase, "shade-tree mechanic," meaning
>>"an amateur mechanic who stereotypically works in the shade of backyard
>>trees."
>>
>>"Shade-tree," adj., has now been used to mean "amateur," with a broader
>>application :
>>
>>2000 James V. Smith, Jr. _Force Recon : Death Wind_ (N.Y.: Berkley,
>>2000) 207 And he knew enough shade-tree psychology to know that he
>>would return to being a smart-ass.
>
>Did this start off as a Texan expression?  The earliest cites I can find
>on Newspaperarchive are all from Texas papers.

Another apparent Texanism: "shade tree philosopher".

-----
1985 _Dallas Morning News_ 30 Aug. 8B (Factiva) Ken Hatfield, that
shade-tree philosopher of the Ozarks, begs to differ.
-----
1986 _Houston Chronicle_ 20 Apr. (Sports) 3 (Factiva) A pearl from that
shade tree philosopher, 1985 Houston Open winner Raymond Floyd.
-----
2002 E.J. COTTON _Hobo_ 116 The old fart was a shade tree philosopher.
Defined as: One who resists idle chatter; one who has the ability to
entertain or extract deeper meaning or said "philosophy" from any
situation, in any setting at any time of day; a self-proclaimed wise man;
a term most probably borrowed from "shade tree mechanic."

-----

--Ben Zimmer

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 18 18:35:20 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:35:20 -0400
Subject: "bailing wire"
In-Reply-To: <35416.69.142.143.59.1119117519.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:46:46 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>>OED doesn't list the Southern phrase, "shade-tree mechanic," meaning
>>"an amateur mechanic who stereotypically works in the shade of backyard
>>trees."
>>
>>"Shade-tree," adj., has now been used to mean "amateur," with a broader
>>application :
>>
>>2000 James V. Smith, Jr. _Force Recon : Death Wind_ (N.Y.: Berkley,
>>2000) 207 And he knew enough shade-tree psychology to know that he
>>would return to being a smart-ass.
>
>Did this start off as a Texan expression?  The earliest cites I can find
>on Newspaperarchive are all from Texas papers.
>
>
>* shade-tree engineer
>
>-----
>1953 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Tex.) 5 May 3/1 Drillers started
>working on the test hole Sunday, and by Monday there was quite a group of
>shade tree engineers offering advice, criticism and suggestions as to
>where the well should have been drilled, how deep it should go and what
>kind of water could be expected. ... "You will have to go down 360 feet to
>find water in this location," one of the shade tree engineers told the
>driller.
>-----
>
>* shade-tree mechanic
>
>-----
>1957 _Commerce Journal_ (Commerce, Tex.) 30 Jul. 1/1 Local officers were
>of the opinion color and model of the vehicle would prevent extensive joy
>riding, although it was pointed out that such cars are prized by youthful
>shade-tree mechanics who convert in to hot-rod racing cars.
>-----
>1958 _Panola Watchman_ (Carthage, Tex.) 25 Sep. 5/1 The simple mechanism
>of the model "A" made it possible for any shade tree mechanic to repair it
>only with a knuckle busting wrench, a pair of pliers, and an adequate
>supply of bailing wire.
>-----
>* shade-tree beauty operator (nonce form)
>
>1958 _Commerce Journal_ (Commerce. Tex.) 3 Jul. 2/1 Shade tree beauty
>operators come off second best in a hair-dyeing rally staged Monday
>afternoon.
>-----
>--Ben Zimmer
~>~>~>~>~>~>
"  *bailing* wire."   Of course it _could_ mean wire of which bails were
made, but I doubt if that was intended.
AM

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 18 18:51:07 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:51:07 EDT
Subject: Slang for Ambulance (Bus, Bumbolance, Bambulance)
Message-ID: 

Is "bus" the NYC slang for "ambulance"? HDAS has a Dos Passos citation, but
not even a full entry, with no regional information.
...
Do they say "bumbolance" in Tennessee?
...
"Bambulance" seems to have a lot of hits. It's not in HDAS.
...
The following thread was interesting. Any help on the NYC "bus" will be
appreciated.
...
...
...
    Steve &  Susan Dec 22 2002,  3:10 pm
    Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: Steve & Susan
   Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:10:16 -0600  Local: Sun,Dec  22 2002 3:10 pm
Subject: Re: Slang for Ambulance

'Blance,
'Bamblance
(used in Jersey  City, NJ along with "bus")
"Bus" is a New York City expression and has been so for many years.
It's  not a TV invention. Say it to any cop, firefighter or EMS worker
in NYC and  they'll know exactly what you mean.
In Missouri, ALS ambulances can be referred to as "LSV's" or life
support  vehicles.
My old FD (for a brief time as an inside joke) referred to ambulances
as  "meat cars." (A firefighter with a speech impediment was really
saying  "police car" and the patient heard "meat car.").
Steve
(forever on the bus)
...
...

    Aussie  Medic Dec 22 2002,  5:09 pm
    Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: "Aussie Medic"
 -     Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 22:09:36 GMT  Local: Sun,Dec  22 2002
5:09 pm   Subject: Re: Slang for Ambulance

forgot "Big White Taxi" (see BRT for FF's)  for the number of people who
treat us as a taxi service.....
...
...

         John  Noble Dec 22  2002, 6:21 pm
   Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: "John Noble"
  -  Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:20:14 GMT  Local:  Sun,Dec  22 2002 6:20
pm   Subject: Re: Slang for Ambulance

I think in Los Angeles they call them  "RA" for Rescue Ambulance.
(Pardon if mentioned earlier, but I can't  see prior posts)
"Aussie Medic"   wrote in message

(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.emerg-services/browse_thread/thread/149b39f118eb1c69/227d04123badcd63?hide_quotes=no#msg_2af6985216dde177)

...
...
         Steve &  Susan Dec 23  2002, 12:36 am
   Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: Steve & Susan 
  Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:36:06 -0600  Local:  Mon,Dec  23 2002 12:36 am
Subject: Re: Slang for Ambulance

On Sun, 22 Dec 2002  23:27:37 -0500, Buff5200  wrote:
>Red Ball  Express

Reminded me of a few more...
Tac-Z (sounds like Taxi - for Tactical paramedic unit "10  Zebra"  old
NYC*EMS Manhattan Boro Cmd,)
Orange & White Bus Company
Steve

...
...
    Leigh Darnall Dec 23 2002,  8:53 am
    Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: Leigh Darnall
_l... at spammersuck.net_ (mailto:l... at spammersuck.net)   Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:54:08 -0600
Local: Mon,Dec  23 2002 8:54 am   Subject: Re: Slang for Ambulance

Tennessee slang:
Med unit, unit, truck, rig or box. The last is used in a fairly
desperate  plea  - "Get me off the box NOW. I can't take it anymore" type
stuff.
"Bus" must be a Yankee thing- I'd never heard it until Third Watch
happened to TV.
Oh, yeah, and "bumbolance." A bit of nonsense that drives my partner crazy.
--
Leigh Darnall
Itinerant Paramedic
Firefighter Wannabe
As  wrong as a soup sandwich.
...
...

    BCarney1123 Dec 23 2002,  11:21 pm
    Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: bcarney1... at aol.com (BCarney1123)
 Date: 24 Dec 2002 04:20:49 GMT  Local: Mon,Dec  23 2002 11:20 pm   Subject:
Re: Slang for Ambulance

>"Bus" must be a Yankee  thing- I'd never heard it until Third Watch
>happened to TV.

More like a NYC area thing. Around here if you say bus everyone  knows
your're
talking about the ambulance. There are two stories I've heard  for this term.
The most obvious one is the reference to picking up multiple people. Back in
the days before the letters E-M-S meant anything it was not unheard of to be
so
busy that the "buses" would respond incident to incident picking up  people
on
the way to the hospital.
Another reference is to the contract NYC had several years ago with the
Grumann
Corporation. Grumann was awarded a large contract to provide the  City with
Transit buses. Grumann also used to make ambulances and NYC EMS  also used
Grumann ambulances. Hence the "Bus" reference. We had two here in  New
Brunswick
and they wouldn't die.
I'm sure some of our collegues from NYC could set the record straight if I'm
mistaken.
Brian
New Brunswick, NJ
...
...

    GaryS Dec 24 2002,  12:26 am
    Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: G... at ILUVspam.com   Date: Tue, 24
Dec 2002 05:26:44 GMT  Local: Tues,Dec  24 2002 12:26 am   Subject: Re: Slang
for Ambulance

On 24 Dec 2002 04:20:49 GMT,  bcarney1... at aol.com (BCarney1123) wrote:

> Another reference is to the contract NYC had several years ago with the
Grumann
> Corporation. Grumann was awarded a large contract to provide  the City with
> Transit buses. Grumann also used to make ambulances and  NYC EMS also used
> Grumann ambulances. Hence the "Bus" reference. We had  two here in New
Brunswick
> and they wouldn't die.

That's the story that I've heard a number of times from people  from NYC, so
there might be some truth to it. However, Bob's story would seem to
contradict that since it predates NYC's purchase of the
Grumman ambulances  by several years.
As for the durability, during WW II Navy pilots referred to the company as
the "Grumman Iron Works" because the planes were so rugged and would keep
flying  with incredible damage.
Gary
...
...

         danny  burstein Dec 25  2002, 2:22 pm
   Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services  From: danny burstein 
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:22:48 +0000 (UTC)  Local:  Wed,Dec  25 2002 2:22 pm
  Subject: Re: Slang for Ambulance

In    "John
Filangeri"  writes:
>It's not from the  Grummans. The term predates them by several decades at
>least. And,  the Grummans were truck chassis modulars (type I). Nothing like
>a  bus.  I would imagine it came from the old "bread truck" (similar to
>trucks used to deliver fresh bread every morning to local  groceries)
>ambulances. They looked quite a bit like a sawed-off  bus.

I have been told by some of the fossilized dinosaurs in  NYC's EMS group
(you know, the folk who were around back when "DIT"  was a checkoff box on
the ambulance call reports) that the term (which  predated my arrival in
the system) comes from the old Dep't of  Hospital days.
Way back then a significant amount of patient transport was done by
multi-passenger vehicles, kind of like the access-a-ride units now in  use
for the handicapped. So yes, patients would wait for the (medical)  "bus"
as it made its rounds.
danny " however, these same people have told me about the snipe hunts  and
treating injuries from cow tipping and recovering bodies after  seregators
got to them, so I'm not sure how much to trust them "  burstein

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 18 19:03:03 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:03:03 EDT
Subject: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
 scream and shout
Message-ID: 

I found these two while looking up some ambulance slang. Does Fred have the
latter?
...
...
WRONG AS A SOUP SANDWICH--7 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits
SLOPPY AS A SOUP SANDWICH--156 Google hits, 140 Google Groups hits
CRAZY AS A SOUP SANDWICH--315 Google hits, 154 Google Groups hits
WHEN IN DANGER, OR IN DOUBT,
RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT--
WHEN IN DANGER + SCREAM AND SHOUT--8,190 Google hits, 7,710 Google Groups
hits

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 19:19:05 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:19:05 -0700
Subject: "shade-tree," adj.
Message-ID: 

I don't know, Ben, but the friend whom I heard it from is from southwest Arkansas.  He assumed it was a nationally known term.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "shade-tree," adj.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:46:46 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
wrote:

>OED doesn't list the Southern phrase, "shade-tree mechanic," meaning
>"an amateur mechanic who stereotypically works in the shade of backyard
>trees."
>
>"Shade-tree," adj., has now been used to mean "amateur," with a broader
>application :
>
>2000 James V. Smith, Jr. _Force Recon : Death Wind_ (N.Y.: Berkley,
>2000) 207 And he knew enough shade-tree psychology to know that he
>would return to being a smart-ass.

Did this start off as a Texan expression? The earliest cites I can find
on Newspaperarchive are all from Texas papers.

* shade-tree engineer

-----
1953 _Valley Morning Star_ (Harlingen, Tex.) 5 May 3/1 Drillers started
working on the test hole Sunday, and by Monday there was quite a group of
shade tree engineers offering advice, criticism and suggestions as to
where the well should have been drilled, how deep it should go and what
kind of water could be expected. ... "You will have to go down 360 feet to
find water in this location," one of the shade tree engineers told the
driller.
-----

* shade-tree mechanic

-----
1957 _Commerce Journal_ (Commerce, Tex.) 30 Jul. 1/1 Local officers were
of the opinion color and model of the vehicle would prevent extensive joy
riding, although it was pointed out that such cars are prized by youthful
shade-tree mechanics who convert in to hot-rod racing cars.
-----
1958 _Panola Watchman_ (Carthage, Tex.) 25 Sep. 5/1 The simple mechanism
of the model "A" made it possible for any shade tree mechanic to repair it
only with a knuckle busting wrench, a pair of pliers, and an adequate
supply of bailing wire.
-----

* shade-tree beauty operator (nonce form)

-----
1958 _Commerce Journal_ (Commerce. Tex.) 3 Jul. 2/1 Shade tree beauty
operators come off second best in a hair-dyeing rally staged Monday
afternoon.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

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From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 18 19:35:26 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:35:26 -0700
Subject: "shade-tree," adj.
In-Reply-To: <36708.69.142.143.59.1119119456.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

> >Did this start off as a Texan expression?  The earliest cites I can find
> >on Newspaperarchive are all from Texas papers.
>
> Another apparent Texanism: "shade tree philosopher".

I used to work with a man, born and raised in Arkansas, attended the
University of Texas and called Texas home (he was military and didn't live
there for most of his adult life), who was fond of calling mechanics "Sam
Shadetree." I've never heard anyone else use this particular term.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net

>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 21:42:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:42:17 -0700
Subject: "faith crime"
Message-ID: 

This excerpt from a BBC story is not at all for the faint of heart.

>From BBC News, June 16 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4098172.stm):

"Children are being trafficked into the UK from Africa and used for human sacrifices, a confidential report for the Metropolitan Police suggests.

"Children are being beaten and even murdered after being labelled as witches by pastors, the report leaked to BBC Radio 4's Today programme said.

"... The report was commissioned by the Met after the death of Victoria Climbie in February 2000 and because of concerns over so-called faith crimes. "

JL

---------------------------------
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From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sat Jun 18 21:57:04 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:57:04 -0400
Subject: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
 scream and shout
Message-ID: 

        Robert Heinlein used "When in danger or in doubt . . . Run in
circles, scream and shout" in Time Enough for Love in 1973 and liked it
enough that he used it again in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls in 1985.
I don't know whether it was original with him or not.  Here's the
context from Time Enough for Love:

        <<"No ship and no assets - what do you _do_?  Remember, I'm
depending on you - or I'm stuck back in the Dark Ages.  What do you do?"

        "'When in danger or doubt . . Run in circles, scream and shout'"
recited Dora.>>

        Note the use of single quotes and the word "recited," indicating
that Dora is quoting, which I suppose is still consistent with the
possibility that Heinlein made it up.  My recollection from reading Time
Enough for Love in the 1970s was that the phrase began "When in danger
or IN doubt," but Amazon.com's version lacks the "in" before "doubt."

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 3:03 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
scream and shout

I found these two while looking up some ambulance slang. Does Fred have
the latter?
...
...
WRONG AS A SOUP SANDWICH--7 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits SLOPPY AS
A SOUP SANDWICH--156 Google hits, 140 Google Groups hits CRAZY AS A SOUP
SANDWICH--315 Google hits, 154 Google Groups hits WHEN IN DANGER, OR IN
DOUBT, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT-- WHEN IN DANGER + SCREAM AND
SHOUT--8,190 Google hits, 7,710 Google Groups hits

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 18 22:27:24 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:27:24 -0700
Subject: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
 scream and shout
Message-ID: 

I first heard "When in danger or in doubt..." in 1963 from a high-school teacher who'd learned it in the Navy during WWII.

It also appears in Herman Wouk's WWII Navy novel, _The Caine Mutiny_  (1951; rpt. N.Y.: Dell, 1969), p. 120 (ch. 10).

Another of my teacher's WWII sayings was, "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer."

I have seen this elsewhere also.

JL

"Baker, John"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
scream and shout
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Heinlein used "When in danger or in doubt . . . Run in
circles, scream and shout" in Time Enough for Love in 1973 and liked it
enough that he used it again in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls in 1985.
I don't know whether it was original with him or not. Here's the
context from Time Enough for Love:

<<"No ship and no assets - what do you _do_? Remember, I'm
depending on you - or I'm stuck back in the Dark Ages. What do you do?"

"'When in danger or doubt . . Run in circles, scream and shout'"
recited Dora.>>

Note the use of single quotes and the word "recited," indicating
that Dora is quoting, which I suppose is still consistent with the
possibility that Heinlein made it up. My recollection from reading Time
Enough for Love in the 1970s was that the phrase began "When in danger
or IN doubt," but Amazon.com's version lacks the "in" before "doubt."

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 3:03 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
scream and shout

I found these two while looking up some ambulance slang. Does Fred have
the latter?
...
...
WRONG AS A SOUP SANDWICH--7 Google hits, 4 Google Groups hits SLOPPY AS
A SOUP SANDWICH--156 Google hits, 140 Google Groups hits CRAZY AS A SOUP
SANDWICH--315 Google hits, 154 Google Groups hits WHEN IN DANGER, OR IN
DOUBT, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT-- WHEN IN DANGER + SCREAM AND
SHOUT--8,190 Google hits, 7,710 Google Groups hits

---------------------------------
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 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 19 00:12:54 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:12:54 -0400
Subject: jerk water , gozen
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D9FDC17@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

"Gossan"/"gozzan" appears in MW3: "decomposed rock or vein material of
reddish or rusty color resulting from oxidized pyrites called also _iron
hat_"; etymology given as Cornish from a word meaning 'blood'.

-- Doug Wilson

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 00:16:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:16:06 -0700
Subject: "paper-pusher"
Message-ID: 

Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?

JL

---------------------------------
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 19 00:51:23 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:51:23 -0400
Subject: "paper-pusher"
In-Reply-To: <20050619001606.38848.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?

1943 _Reno Evening Gazette_ 4 Jan. 43 (Newspaperarchive.com)
After we figure up our new taxes we are going to be pretty mad whenever we
see or hear of a single paper-pusher or payroller who isn't absolutely
needed?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 01:46:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:46:54 -0700
Subject: "paper-pusher"
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the cite, Fred.

JL

Fred Shapiro  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: Re: "paper-pusher"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?

1943 _Reno Evening Gazette_ 4 Jan. 43 (Newspaperarchive.com)
After we figure up our new taxes we are going to be pretty mad whenever we
see or hear of a single paper-pusher or payroller who isn't absolutely
needed?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 19 02:19:24 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:19:24 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <20050618122317.11908.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Some voices on the Web claim that "open the kimono" in its modern
metaphoric sense was already familiar in the 1960's. (I've never been
familiar with it myself BTW.)

It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any Japanese reference
at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
"housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe some people still
use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any thought knew that
the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman lounging around in
a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to Japan (as an
inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of India when they
think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a non-ethnic sense
like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates from before WW
II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I think, although
perhaps not entirely exclusively.

The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little peculiar since I
would expect something like "open his or her clothing" rather than "open
the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among others): (1) "open
the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English meaning "expose
oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less word-for-word
from some Japanese conventional expression with similar meaning (with
"the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the same Japanese
expression might have been translated again independently for the modern
metaphor).

-- Doug Wilson

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 19 02:22:08 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:22:08 -0400
Subject: "Run in circles,
 scream and shout" (1948); Mabel Earl McGinnis bio request
Message-ID: 

WHEN IN TROUBLE OR IN DOUBT--4,450 Google hits, 1,120 Google Groups hits
WHEN IN DANGER OR IN DOUBT--6,540 Google hits, 6,750 Google Groups hits
RUN IN CIRCLES + SCREAM AND SHOUT--9,990 Google hits, 21,600 Google Groups hits
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
'Budget Your Time,' She Says!
By Marie McNair and Elizabeth Maguire. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 18, 1951. p. C3 (1 page):
In the Navy there's a saying, according to the speaker, that goes like this: "When in danger and in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
...
U.S. Willing to Talk on Satellites; SATELLITE TALKS
DON SHANNON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 9, 1957. p. 1 (2 pages)
Pg. 18:
"It reminds me of an old Navy verse--'When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream and ashout.' It seems to me there's a lot of people doing this right now."
...
Top Brass Pushing Panic Buttons Before Season Starts!
FRANK LANGLEY. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 14, 1963. p. A20 (1 page) :
"When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
...
This cliche is probably the most widely accepted operational strategy in all of television where panic buttons are as common as snowflakes in a blizzard.
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERSRCHIVE)
...
 The Edwardsville IntelligencerWednesday, October 09, 1957 Edwardsville, Illinois
...trouble, when IN doubt, RUN IN irclos, SCREAM AND SHOUT. Ik seems to me a lot.....When IN Trouble, Doubt, RUN IN CIRCLES AND SHOUT WASHINGTON head of..
...

 Stevens Point Daily JournalMonday, May 13, 1957 Stevens Point, Wisconsin
...When uncertaIN, when IN doubt, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT. Well, Gerald.....kINdergarten. They INcluded 13 male AND 13 female two-year-olds; 22 male AND..
...

 The Frederick PostFriday, January 31, 1969 Frederick, Maryland
...When IN danger, when IN doubt, "RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT." Hall.....MD., FRIDAY, JANUARY 31, 1969 RUN Foil Ntws T.UI TWENTY-FOUR PAGES..
...

 The Great Bend TribuneSunday, August 11, 1974 Great Bend, Kansas
...When IN danger, when IN doubt, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT." Perhaps at.....from 1.5 to 2.4 million youths did RUN away from home between mid-1969 AND..
...

 The Frederick PostThursday, August 08, 1974 Frederick, Maryland
...IN danger, v.-hen IN doubt, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT." Perhaps at.....create a department of public works AND may provide for its organization AND..
...

 Valley Morning StarSunday, May 09, 1948 Harlingen, Texas
...Wlun IN trouble when IN doul RUN IN CIRCLES SCREAM AND SHOUT This slogan.....open ei It VMS Tie motion INs been nuc RUN dlacusHion7 Quest en bo ot deied Tnc..
Pg. 4, col. 6:
_CONSTANTINE BROWN SAYS:_
_U. S. Is "Running in CIrcles"_
_With Re-Arming Program As_
_Red Menace to World Grows_
WASHINGTON--The old Army War College used to have a football team whose slogan was "When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." This slogan could aptly be applied to the present behavior of our political leaders in Washington.
...

 The Chronicle TelegramFriday, July 27, 1956 Elyria, Ohio
...IN trouble, when IN .doubt, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT. Stop the.....Malcolm Strelitz-of Marrescue ship's AND his own crew. ion AND her daughter..
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"MABEL EARL McGINNIS" SEARCH
...
I was asked to look for this. If anyone can help, that's great. A biographical article, or date of marriage, or date of death will help.
...
...
abel Earl McGinnis:

Author of Simple Italian Cookery, published by Harper and Brothers, February,
1912.

Lived in Rome in 1912.  (Harper and Brothers, Business Records.)

Born 1876.  (Library of Congress, bibliographic data.)

Born:  May 16, 1876, New York (IGI Individual Record)

Parents: John McGinnis and Lydia Olivia Matteson (IGI Individual Record)

Mother: Lydia Olivia Matteson, died March 17, 1898, Paris, France (Emmet
Family Papers.)

Husband:  Norvell Richardson, died 1940 (IGI Individual Record, NYT obituary)
...
...
Mabel Earl MCGINNIS
Source: Family & Local Histories - American Genealogical-Biographical Index (AGBI)

...
Name:  Mabel Earl MCGINNIS
Volume:  114
Page Number:  249
Reference:  Sterling gen. By Albert Mack Sterling. New York. 1909. (2v.):703

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 02:38:06 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:38:06 -0400
Subject: "paper-pusher"
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:51:23 -0400, Fred Shapiro 
wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?
>
>1943 _Reno Evening Gazette_ 4 Jan. 43 (Newspaperarchive.com)
>After we figure up our new taxes we are going to be pretty mad
>whenever we see or hear of a single paper-pusher or payroller who
>isn't absolutely needed?

For "paper-pushing" (in the sense of bureaucratic dilly-dallying or
buck-passing):

-----
Washington Post, Nov 2, 1942, p. 18/7
The Washington Merry-Go-Round, by Drew Pearson
Cuts Red Tape to Get Machinery to Russia

One year ago, the Harriman Mission came back from Moscow to report that
Russia sorely needed oil equipment to set up new refineries behind the
Ural mountains. Even if Russia did not lose the Caucasus, the Harriman
Mission said, her pipelines would be cut off and the Red armies would be
completely paralyzed unless they got oil.
The Harriman Mission made this report in October, 1941. It is now November
1942. Yet for 12 long months little happened. The story is too long to
tell here. In spots it is disgraceful. But finally the President,
Secretaries Morgenthau and Ickes got steamed up over the paper-pushing
which had been going on under their noses. They ordered oil refining
equipment to Russia immediately.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun 19 02:52:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:52:31 -0400
Subject: jerk water , gozen
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ev2haq@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 18, 2005, at 8:12 PM, douglas at NB.NET wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       douglas at NB.NET
> Subject:      Re: jerk water , gozen
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Gossan"/"gozzan" appears in MW3: "decomposed rock or vein material of
> reddish or rusty color resulting from oxidized pyrites called also
> _iron
> hat_"; etymology given as Cornish from a word meaning 'blood'.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

Sounds good to me, Doug. Thanks for doing the grunt work!

-Wilson Gray

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun 19 03:11:50 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:11:50 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$ev8in8@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:19 PM, douglas at NB.NET wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       douglas at NB.NET
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Some voices on the Web claim that "open the kimono" in its modern
> metaphoric sense was already familiar in the 1960's. (I've never been
> familiar with it myself BTW.)
>
> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any Japanese
> reference
> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe some people
> still
> use it so?);

>  An excellent point, Doug. I don't know whether anyone still uses the
> term with the "housecoat," etc. meanings. But, now that you've jogged
> my memory, I am, sadly, old enough to remember when "kimono" was
> almost a standard term, used by everyone and anyone, with the
> pronunciation, among blacks, at least, [kI mon@].

-Wilson Gray

> I suppose people who gave the matter any thought knew that
> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman lounging
> around in
> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to Japan (as an
> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of India when
> they
> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a non-ethnic sense
> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates from
> before WW
> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I think, although
> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>
> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little peculiar
> since I
> would expect something like "open his or her clothing" rather than
> "open
> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among others): (1)
> "open
> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English meaning "expose
> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less word-for-word
> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar meaning (with
> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the same Japanese
> expression might have been translated again independently for the
> modern
> metaphor).
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 03:28:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:28:47 -0700
Subject: "paper-pusher"
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Ben.  If it really does mean "passing the buck," it's the only example I know of.  My guess is that the shuffling of papers leading to delay and confusion is what's intended.

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "paper-pusher"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:51:23 -0400, Fred Shapiro
wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?
>
>1943 _Reno Evening Gazette_ 4 Jan. 43 (Newspaperarchive.com)
>After we figure up our new taxes we are going to be pretty mad
>whenever we see or hear of a single paper-pusher or payroller who
>isn't absolutely needed?

For "paper-pushing" (in the sense of bureaucratic dilly-dallying or
buck-passing):

-----
Washington Post, Nov 2, 1942, p. 18/7
The Washington Merry-Go-Round, by Drew Pearson
Cuts Red Tape to Get Machinery to Russia

One year ago, the Harriman Mission came back from Moscow to report that
Russia sorely needed oil equipment to set up new refineries behind the
Ural mountains. Even if Russia did not lose the Caucasus, the Harriman
Mission said, her pipelines would be cut off and the Red armies would be
completely paralyzed unless they got oil.
The Harriman Mission made this report in October, 1941. It is now November
1942. Yet for 12 long months little happened. The story is too long to
tell here. In spots it is disgraceful. But finally the President,
Secretaries Morgenthau and Ickes got steamed up over the paper-pushing
which had been going on under their noses. They ordered oil refining
equipment to Russia immediately.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 19 03:31:18 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:31:18 -0400
Subject: "Uptown Art Stroll" (or, "arts stroll")
Message-ID: 

ARTS STROLL--844 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit
ART STROLL--5,180 Google hits, 10 Google Groups hits
...
...
I was walking through Washington Heights/Inwood today. Strolling, actually. Had a papusa at La Cabana Salvadorena Restaurant, 4384 Broadway (corner 187th Street).
...
Is it "art stroll" or the hard-to-say "arts stroll"? They're everywhere now. Did these things exist 50 years ago?
...
...
...
http://www.artstroll.com/2005/about/
On 23 November 2003, the first Uptown Arts Stroll saw local merchants and institutions host local artists' exhibitions, and other local artists opened their studio doors to the community to showcase work in this creative neighborhood. More than 50 venues showed artists' work.

The success of that event led Artists Unite, Community Board 12, The Manhattan Times, Washington Heights & Inwood Online, and other collaborators to increase the publicity for the Arts Stroll and make it a regular event to draw arts patrons from all over the city. This is our third year!
...
...
http://newyork.clubfreetime.com/vieweventdetails.asp?ID=44251
"Uptown Art Stroll?
June 18, 10:00AM to 3:00PM
Annual event celebrates local artists from Washington Heights/Inwood area who exhibit their work in area venues. This year exhibit includes photographs of Carl Nunn, whose works are shadowy black and white images of people and places in Harlem.

...
...
http://turnertourigny.tripod.com/whie/index.blog?from=20050227
Uptown Art Stroll is back for 2005! Poster contest!
This summer's Stroll will occur June 14-19th. Like last year, there will be a kick-off opening reception at Highbridge Park, with live music, food, a preview show and for the first time a benefit auction of artwork. A sponsor is being sought for the fireworks display.

The Uptown Arts Stroll committee is sponsoring a poster contest for the third annual Arts Stroll in June. The winning design will be used as a poster and other promotional materials.

The deadline for submissions is 3/25/05 5pm

For details or questions of the specifications of the poster, please email Peter Ferko at
peterferko at artistsunite-NY.org or call
212-923-5535
...
...
(FACTIVA)
Heavenly Sites And Irish Eyes
Pamela Kessler
866 words
6 May 1988
The Washington Post
FINAL
n57
EVENING ART STROLL
Taking advantage of longer days and balmier nights, 18 galleries in the Dupont Circle area - in other words, most of them - will be open until 8 Friday night for "An Evening Art Stroll." Refreshments will be served.
...
...
She's hooked on hiking
383 words
15 September 1991
The Milwaukee Journal
25
English
(Copyright 1991)

SEEING metropolitan Milwaukee from the inside of a car and experiencing it on foot are as different as night and day, says veteran walker Cari Taylor-Carlson. And, she adds, this is the perfect season to do something about it.
Her newly self-published book, Milwaukee Walks, is the outgrowth of lots of worn-out shoe leather. Her view of Greater Milwaukee changed drastically, she says, when she explored, mapped out, researched and wrote the book. "It opened my eyes to the tremendous ethnic diversity in Milwaukee" and greatly enhanced her appreciation of the city and its suburbs, the 52-year-old author says.
Her book contains essays on 20 Milwaukee-area walks with maps, directions and mileage, ranging from a Riverwest art stroll to a Wauwatosa walk. Autumn, she reminds readers, is the ideal time for a tree walk. The crisp air and "the auburn and gold leaves of the maples are spectacular."
...
...
Church of Scientology should pay taxes Series: LETTERS
1,005 words
21 November 1992
St. Petersburg Times
CITY
2; 2; 2
English
(Copyright 1992)

Editor: Did anyone else notice, or was it just me? Last Saturday night, the city of Clearwater was alive. In my 15 years here, this was the first non-Jazz Holiday event that showed the true potential of Clearwater.
Thanks to the organizers of the Arts Colony and the Saturday night Art Stroll, Clearwater looked a lot like Ybor City - except for the ever-present Scientologists.
...
...
HOT TICKETS FOR THE WEEKEND
92 words
19 March 1993
The Salt Lake Tribune
B6
English
(Copyright 1993)

Art stroll tonight
The Salt Lake Gallery Association will hold its monthly gallery stroll tonight from 6 to 9.
...
...
Art stroll in works
The Grand Rapids Press
212 words
15 August 2000
The Grand Rapids Press
2
L4
English
(Copyright 2000)

Not content to keep their art image based on what they already have, some Saugatuck residents are putting together an outdoor art project that will be up year-round, creating an "Art Stroll" for interested people.
Gayle Lipsig said she got the idea from a similar project in Grand Junction, Colorado. The idea is to have outdoor art loaned by artists placed all over the Saugatuck-Douglas area, with a map to guide people to the sites.
At the end of one year, the pieces are sold, and the Art Stroll committee gets 25 percent of the proceeds to help fund future years.
...
...
The City Weekly Desk; SECT14
NEIGHBORHOOD REPORT: UPPER MANHATTAN
Far From Fifth Avenue, a Homegrown Museum Mile
By SETH KUGEL
431 words
16 November 2003
The New York Times
Late Edition - Final
6
English
(c) 2003 New York Times Company

It won't exactly be Museum Mile. But if an event planned for next Sunday is successful, a 60-block stretch of upper Broadway will be lined with ad hoc exhibition spaces showing the work of local artists, and visitors from inside and outside the neighborhood will be poking their heads in to take a look.
The event, officially known as the Uptown Arts Stroll, is a response by local businesses and art enthusiasts to something of an anomaly. Although artists have been moving to Washington Heights and Inwood steadily over the last decade, these northern Manhattan communities have virtually no loft space and few galleries. As a result, local artists must display, and sometimes create, their work elsewhere.
''It just seemed like there were all these groups of artists floating around and nobody getting them together,'' said Mike Fitelson, a photographer who is the editor of Manhattan Times, a local newspaper, and the person who conceived the event.
The idea coalesced in September at a meeting of the economic development committee of Community Board 12. Letters were sent to 51 organizations and businesses, and artists were recruited through groups like Artists Unite, a local organization formed last year.
Work by more than 40 artists will be shown in spaces between 159th Street and 218th Street that have been provided by local businesses and organizations.
These range from neighborhood mainstays like Coogan's, a venerable local bar and restaurant, to Cafe 7, a month-old cafe in Inwood whose owner, Robert Robles, happened to be applying for a beer-and-wine permit at the committee meeting where plans for the stroll were discussed.
Mr. Robles thought immediately of the big blank right wall in his cafe. ''I was like, we don't have to wait for an art stroll to put up art,'' he said. The week before the event, mixed-media images of Inwood Hill Park by Elissa Gore had already been hung; they will remain after the exhibition day.
The hope is that walkers and bus riders will roam the neighborhood streets, savoring the oils, photographs and children's art while patronizing local businesses. The hope is also that the stroll will be the first of similar neighborhood-wide events.
''I don't think we necessarily see ourselves yet as an arts community the way Williamsburg does,'' said Peter Ferko, president of Artists Unite. ''And hopefully that's what's emerging now.'' SETH KUGEL
...
...
NY Night Schedule
522 words
9 June 2004
12:24 pm
Associated Press Newswires
6 p.m. to 9 p.m.
Fireworks display kicks off the 2nd Annual Uptown Arts Stroll in Washington Heights and Inwood; Highbridge Recreation Center, 2301 Amsterdam Ave., at West 173rd Street, Washington Heights.
--Contact: Monica Arvelo, 212-505-6633.
...
...
Leisure/Weekend Desk; SECTE; PT2
Spare Times
1,093 words
17 June 2005
The New York Times
Late Edition - Final
40
UPTOWN ARTS STROLL, a series of events in Washington Heights and Inwood with a spoken-word presentation at Our Saviour's Atonement Church, 178 Bennett Avenue, at West 189th Street (tonight at 7:30), and live music along Broadway, at Fort Tryon Park (Sunday from 4 to 6 p.m.). Information: artstroll.com.

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 03:59:07 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:59:07 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:11:50 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:

>On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:19 PM, douglas at NB.NET wrote:
>>
>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any Japanese
>> reference at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used
>> like "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe some
>> people still use it so?);
>
> An excellent point, Doug. I don't know whether anyone still uses the
> term with the "housecoat," etc. meanings. But, now that you've jogged
> my memory, I am, sadly, old enough to remember when "kimono" was
> almost a standard term, used by everyone and anyone, with the
> pronunciation, among blacks, at least, [kI mon@].

As in the Rosemary Clooney hit, "Kimono My House"?

> I suppose people who gave the matter any thought knew that
> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman lounging
> around in a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to Japan
> (as an inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of India
> when they think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
> non-ethnic sense like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it
> dates from before WW II. Still it would probably have referred to a
> woman, I think, although perhaps not entirely exclusively.

I'd be quite surprised if the original metaphor didn't have some Japanese
referent, but then again I wasn't aware of the generic "housecoat" sense.

Here's one undocumented explanation of the phrase's Japanese origin:

-----
http://telephonyonline.com/mag/telecom_hang_kimono/
A little more digging reveals that the expression "open the kimono"
actually originated in feudal Japanese times and referred to the practice
of proving that no weapons were hidden within the folds of clothing.
-----

That sound rather etymythological to me (isn't there a similar story about
the origin of the handshake?), but I suppose the "no weapons" tale
(regardless of its veracity) could have had something to do with the
origin of the expression in business circles.  If so, then that would be
an alternative to the "geisha" interpretation.

I'm still betting that the "geisha" reading was in the mix early on, as
suggested by the obviously gendered analogue, "lifting the skirt(s)".
Googlehits for that expression are mostly from UK/Australia, so perhaps
that's where to look for early developments of the skirt/kimono metaphor.

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Jun 19 04:08:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:08:16 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

To me, this term is "something else," to use an antiquated phrase. When
I was a little kid back in the 'Forties, I couldn't wait for my beard
to grow so that I could wear a soul patch. I'd seen young men - "big
boys" - wearing soul patches and I thought that it looked really cool.
The only time that I haven't worn a soul patch was when I was in basic
training in the Army.

What's bizarre about this tuft of whiskers adorning the underside of
the lower lip is that there was no word for it, back in the day. None
was needed, because this tuft was never referred to. Some men,
including your humble correspondent, from time to time, wore only a
soul patch on an otherwise clean-shaven face and still no one felt the
need to give it a name.

Now, for some unknown reason, people have suddenly felt the need to
name the tuft and have done so. How often is it the case that something
that been nameless for centuries, if not millennia, gets a name?

-Wilson Gray

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Jun 19 05:00:48 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:00:48 -0500
Subject: jerk water , gozen
Message-ID: 

And "gossan"/"gozan" do appear in OED as well. I just wasn't clever enough to check variant spellings the first time around.

"Gossan" is also moderately prevalent in Nevada cites from N'Archive, and is in the Colorado and Utah Historical Newspaper Databases.  I couldn't find "gozzan" or "gozan" in any of those, however.

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       douglas at NB.NET
>Subject:      Re: jerk water , gozen
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>"Gossan"/"gozzan" appears in MW3: "decomposed rock or vein material of
>reddish or rusty color resulting from oxidized pyrites called also _iron
>hat_"; etymology given as Cornish from a word meaning 'blood'.
>
>-- Doug Wilson

From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 19 05:07:51 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:07:51 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <94c77c43c84b29e0d2fbd12d67300e67@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

> What's bizarre about this tuft of whiskers adorning the underside of
> the lower lip is that there was no word for it, back in the day. None
> was needed, because this tuft was never referred to. Some men,
> including your humble correspondent, from time to time, wore only a
> soul patch on an otherwise clean-shaven face and still no one felt the
> need to give it a name.

I believe the noun "imperial" sometimes refers to such a tuft. Apparently
this was named after Napoleon III, and pictures of him show such a
localized beard.

I THINK I've heard "soul patch" for 20 years or so, but maybe I'm
misremembering again. Quick Google only shows the expression back to 1998
or so.

Some Web sites give another synonym: "Attilio".

-- Doug Wilson

From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Jun 19 05:08:24 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:08:24 -0500
Subject: "bailing wire"
In-Reply-To: <20050618183508.93D0A4C51@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

I believe that just as 'shade tree' has expanded to contexts other the auto
mechanics, 'bailing wire' has expanded to include many materials used for
purposes, especially in an improvised way, other than their original
ones.  In fact, use of 'bailing wire' need not refer to any material at
all.  Just the other day, I described a piece of software as being "held
together with scotch tape and bailing wire" as a way of suggesting that it
was a mess of quick fixes and kluges.

--Tom Kysilko, who is quite familiar with Sam Shadetree's northern cousin,
Backyard Bob.

At 6/18/2005 02:35 PM -0400, sagehen wrote:
> >-----
> >1958 _Panola Watchman_ (Carthage, Tex.) 25 Sep. 5/1 The simple mechanism
> >of the model "A" made it possible for any shade tree mechanic to repair it
> >only with a knuckle busting wrench, a pair of pliers, and an adequate
> >supply of bailing wire.
> >-----
>~>~>~>~>~>~>
>"  *bailing* wire."   Of course it _could_ mean wire of which bails were
>made, but I doubt if that was intended.
>AM

--Tom Kysilko

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 05:22:26 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:22:26 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:07:51 -0400, Douglas Wilson  wrote:

>> What's bizarre about this tuft of whiskers adorning the underside of
>> the lower lip is that there was no word for it, back in the day. None
>> was needed, because this tuft was never referred to. Some men,
>> including your humble correspondent, from time to time, wore only a
>> soul patch on an otherwise clean-shaven face and still no one felt the
>> need to give it a name.
>
>I believe the noun "imperial" sometimes refers to such a tuft. Apparently
>this was named after Napoleon III, and pictures of him show such a
>localized beard.
>
>I THINK I've heard "soul patch" for 20 years or so, but maybe I'm
>misremembering again. Quick Google only shows the expression back to 1998
>or so.

Nexis takes it back to 1993.  A 1995 Boston Globe article on the soul
patch mentions the "Imperial", but says it was so named because "Little
Anthony of Little Anthony and the Imperials rose to fame wearing one."
The article also mentions the "jazz dab", which I would guess dates back
to Dizzy Gillespie's time.

But wasn't Gillespie's sub-lip facial hair usually just called a "goatee",
however inexactly?  I think Frank Zappa was also said to wear a goatee,
though like Gillespie he never grew the hair down to his chin.

--Ben Zimmer

From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Sun Jun 19 05:30:46 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:30:46 -0400
Subject: bogeying=boogying
Message-ID: 

Found this 'bogey' today while googling something else:

>Report from the Florida Fiery Foods Show
>After an oyster dinner, I started bogeying on the dance floor with my
>niece Emily
>DeWitt, then with Mary Jane. No one there had ever seen me dance, ...
>www.fiery-foods.com/zine-industry/flashow.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

Google hits:    boogying 18,600
                boogieing 7,490

While there are nearly 14,000 google hits for 'bogeying', all that I saw (a
very brief glance) pertain to golf 'bogeys,' rather than the
'boogie'-derived usage here, but at least some other boogie/bogeys  turn up:

>Midnight menu at Right Place
>Today, Chennai conjures images of BPOs, discoth?ques and party animals
>bogeying
>into the wee hours of the night. The city, indeed, never sleeps! ...
>www.chennaionline.com/hotelsandtours/ Restaurants/2005/03rightplace.asp -
>67k - Jun 17, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
>
>Discover Native America 2001
>... just inches from the drummers, slamming, thrashing, striking the heat taut
>hides, the drums, suspended on wooden pegs, undulating, bogeying,
>shimmying. ...
>www.cgcas.org/dna.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
>
>Jazz | JazzTimes Magazine > Reviews > Concert Reviews
>Jumping, twirling, dropping to their knees and just plain bogeying, the group
>worked up a sweat that of course led to their abandoning their fancy
>pinstripe ...
>www.jazztimes.com/reviews/ concert_reviews/detail.cfm?article=10318 - 32k
>- Cached - Similar pages
>
>The Blues Audience newsletter
>Sugar Ray & The Bluetones got the crowd out on the floor, dancing, and
>kept them
>bogeying all night long. With "Monster" Mike Welch on guitar, ...
>www.bluesaudience.com/sugarray.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
>
>DwightOzard.com | Lover's Quarrel Article: Dance, White Boy, Dance ...
>Call it what you want-"getting down," "bogeying," "tripping Dick Clark and the
>light-fantastic," whatever-but when James Brown comes on, there is only
>one ...
>www.dwightozard.com/lq-article.asp?id=78 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
>
>USCG Auxiliary 1SR
>Bogeying on the tarmac.Tom Negri, FC 13-06 starting the twist contest, A
>closer
>view of the castle which captured the hearts of the kids. ...
>www.cgaux1sr.org/photo/d13Blessing/div13Blessing.htm - 11k - Cached -
>Similar pages

Etc.

Not sure if this qualifies for eggcorn status.

Michael McKernan

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Jun 19 05:40:40 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:40:40 -0500
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

>From Factiva:

"Traveling Tore gives the blues a worldwide whirl " MARTY RACINE, 5 April 1986, Houston Chronicle 

"He's a throwback to some early species of hipster. 

``Yeah, man,'' Walter ``H.K.'' Tore is fond of saying, with his nifty little soul-patch and goatee and slicked-back hair. "

If only _Down Beat_ was on line . . . . 

>Nexis takes it back to 1993.  A 1995 Boston Globe article on the soul
>patch mentions the "Imperial", but says it was so named because "Little
>Anthony of Little Anthony and the Imperials rose to fame wearing one."
>The article also mentions the "jazz dab", which I would guess dates back
>to Dizzy Gillespie's time.

>--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 19 05:46:47 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:46:47 -0400
Subject: Safire quotes Word Spy; Manhattanization (San Francisco, 1969)
Message-ID: 

SAFIRE QUOTES WORD SPY
...
William Safire cites Paul McFedries Word Spy today. Is Word Spy still functioning? Does William Safire even know this?...Where is Katy Miller when you need her?
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/magazine/19ONLANGUAGE.html
I implanted the noun knowbie earlier, which Paul McFedries's Web site, Word Spy, defines as ''a knowledgeable and experienced Internet user.'' It is based on newbie, a neophyte ''ignorant of Netiquette and other online proprieties,'' and already being replaced, according to netlingo.com, by debbie, ''someone newer than a newbie.'' 
...
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MANHATTANIZATION
...
There are scattered earlier references, but the San Francisco use appears to have started in June 1969. (The AP story is in several newspapers.) The newly digitized Oakland Tribune doesn't have it any earlier.
...
I'll rush right out and tell the Manhattan borough president that I've solved Manhattanization, Miss Manhattan, the Manhattan cocktail, and Manhattan clam chowder.
...
...
(OED)
Manhattanization, n.
orig. and chiefly U.S. 
[< MANHATTANIZE v. + -ATION. Cf. MANHATTANIZING n.]  
    The process of making or becoming similar in character or appearance to Manhattan. 

1974 Encycl. Brit. Macrop?dia XVI. 219/1 In the late 1960s and early 1970s, a great change, which has been described as the Manhattanization of San Francisco, became apparent. 1993 Times 25 May 17 The construction of the National Westminster and Canary Wharf towers suggests that the Manhattanization of London is proceeding apace.
...
...
Skyscrapers Soaring in San Francisco; A City of 40 Hills Concentration Encouraged 
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jun 29, 1969. p. 130 (1 page) :
SAN FRANCISCO (AP)--Skyscrapers are soaring into this city's famed hilly skyline despite attacks by critics on what they call "Manhattanization."
...
For four years they have watched with anxiety as 17 office buildings soard in the Montgomery street district of "Wall Street West."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 05:55:59 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:55:59 -0400
Subject: "bailing wire"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:08:24 -0500, Tom Kysilko  wrote:

>At 6/18/2005 02:35 PM -0400, sagehen wrote:
>> >-----
>> >1958 _Panola Watchman_ (Carthage, Tex.) 25 Sep. 5/1 The simple
>> >mechanism of the model "A" made it possible for any shade tree
>> >mechanic to repair it only with a knuckle busting wrench, a pair
>> >of pliers, and an adequate supply of bailing wire.
>> >-----
>>
>>"  *bailing* wire."   Of course it _could_ mean wire of which bails
>>were made, but I doubt if that was intended.
>
>I believe that just as 'shade tree' has expanded to contexts other the
>auto mechanics, 'bailing wire' has expanded to include many materials
>used for purposes, especially in an improvised way, other than their
>original ones.  In fact, use of 'bailing wire' need not refer to any
>material at all.  Just the other day, I described a piece of software
>as being "held together with scotch tape and bailing wire" as a way of
>suggesting that it was a mess of quick fixes and kluges.

I'm pretty sure that Murie/sagehen was directing our attention to the
eggcorn status of "bailing wire" rather than its metaphorical extension.
I've added it to the Eggcorn Database in case there's any confusion...

http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/386/bailing/

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Jun 19 05:57:05 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:57:05 -0500
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

The Question Behind Those Beards
By HERBERT MITGANG
New York Times (1857-Current file); Apr 27, 1958;  pg. SM42
"Stand in front of a building on Broadway frequented by musicians; the bopster and hipster goatees on display are an every-day mark of the cool jazz man."

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 06:19:34 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:19:34 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:57:05 -0500, Mullins, Bill
 wrote:

>The Question Behind Those Beards
>By HERBERT MITGANG
>New York Times (1857-Current file); Apr 27, 1958;  pg. SM42
>"Stand in front of a building on Broadway frequented by musicians; the
>bopster and hipster goatees on display are an every-day mark of the cool
>jazz man."

Well, without some names or faces, we don't know if "goatee" referred to
the classic chin whiskers of Thelonious Monk, the soul patch of Dizzy
Gillespie, or both.

I've come across both "jazz dab" and "jazz dot" to describe Dizzy's tuft,
but I have yet to find any contemporaneous usage.

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 06:52:47 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:52:47 -0400
Subject: Theology Today (1958-97)
Message-ID: 

Of potential interest...

The journal _Theology Today_, published by the Princeton Theological
Seminary, has an online archive from 1958 to 1997:

http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/

The full-text search feature looks OK, though you can't sort by date and
there are no page images.

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 07:09:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:09:14 -0400
Subject: televangelism (1958)
Message-ID: 

televangelism (OED 1980)

1958 _L.A. Times_ 27 Sep. 12/2 Ahead is a big project, "Televangelism
1959," utilizing the series [sc. the religious television series "This Is
The Answer"]. Scheduled to start in Jan. 1959, it will be supported by all
major Baptist bodies and will emphasize personal evangelism.

1958 _Tri-City Herald_ (Pasco, Wash.) 5 Dec. 6/5 The Radio and Television
Commission of The Southern Baptist Convention is producing 13 special
films in the "This Is The Answer" series called "Televangelism." ... One
hundred television stations in the United States and Canada will carry the
"Televangelism" series.

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 07:17:36 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:17:36 -0400
Subject: transconfessional (1966)
Message-ID: 

transconfessional (OED 1975)

1966 _Theology Today_ 23 (July) 239 It has indeed been said that the
sacramental affirmations of the Scots Confession can lay claim to a
validity that is transconfessional: not just reformiert but
reformatorisch.

http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/search/display-page.asp?Path=/jul1966/v23-2-article6.htm

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 07:35:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:35:37 -0400
Subject: neo-modernism (Islamic 1958, Christian 1964)
Message-ID: 

* neo-modernism [OED 1966, religious sense 1973]

1958 F. RAHMAN in _Bull. School of Oriental & Afr. Studies_ 21 I/III 98
The most striking illustration of this attitude which may be called
neo-Modernism is afforded by a man of no less a status than Chaudhri
Muhammad Ali, the former Prime Minister of Pakistan.

_Ibid._ 99 Indeed, the term neo-Modernism employed above describes not an
intellectual movement but the new attitude, or rather, the new attitude
plus the intellectual void existing at present. ... But Modernism -- the
attempt at meaninfully integrating Westernism with Islam -- has been
explicitly jettisoned in favour of an 'Islamic' neo-Modernism of the
future of whose genesis there is as yet no trace to be seen.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0041-977X%281958%2921%3A1%2F3%3C82%3AMMITIS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-O

1964 _Theology Today_ 21 (Apr.) 114 His [sc. Dr. Gerhard Ebeling's]
historical investigations and his neomodernism together produce a tone
which is fresh if not altogether new. He insists (we think rightly) that
there is a new dimension to atheism and secularism in our day. He also
insists that "the critical historical method" of understanding
Christianity requires a new approach to Christian doctrine.

http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/search/display-page.asp?Path=/apr1964/v21-1-bookreview1.htm

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 08:13:17 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:13:17 -0400
Subject: Hare Krishna (1966)
Message-ID: 

* Hare Krishna (chant, OED 1968)

1966 _N.Y. Times_ 10 Oct. 24/1 The ecstasy of the chant, or mantra --
"Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare
Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare" -- has replaced LSD and other drugs for many
of the swami's followers, Mr. Ginsberg said.

1966 _N.Y. Times_ 6 Nov. 42/1 Mr. Ginsberg sang, to his own accompaniment
on a portable harmonium, "Hari Krishna Mantra," which he translated from
Hindustani as "a magic formula chant to the gods of preservation that
calms people's hearts."

* Hare Krishna (designating the movement, OED 1970)

1968 _L.A. Times_ 28 Dec. 10/2 The movement -- sometimes called the Hare
Krishna movement because of the importance of the chant using the words
Hare, Krishna and Ram -- has drawn its early growth from the recent
interest in transcendental meditation.

* Hare Krishna (designating a member, OED 1972)

1970 _Washington Post_ 18 May B2/7 The Hare Krishnas compete with the
Christians on Hollywood Boulevard.

--Ben Zimmer

From bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 19 10:11:48 2005
From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:11:48 -0400
Subject: Kimby (Keep It in My Back Yard); "Hell with the lid off" (1868)
Message-ID: 

KIMBY
...
Too bad I just get this one cite.
...
Community Gazettes - District 10 ... to social-service offices in their neighborhoods, it is an unexpected response, less Nimby (Not in My Back Yard) than Kimby (Keep It in My Back Yard). ...
www.gothamgazette.com/community/10/news - 32k - Cached - Similar pages
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"HELL WITH THE LID OFF" (PITTSBURGH)
...
Does Fred have this quote?
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
Exhibit gives Pittsburgh's image a makeover - PittsburghLIVE.com
What: Photographs of Pittsburgh by nine local photojournalists. ... our town -- "Smoky
City," "Hell with the lid off" and, of course, "Steel City" -- which, ...
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_324306.html - 37k - Jun 18, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
...
Western PA History: Activities
Research key events and people in Pittsburgh's history and plot them on the timeline
... Gateway to the West; Smoky City; Hell with the lid off; Iron City ...
www.wqed.org/erc/pghist/units/WPAhist/WPAhist_act.shtml - 41k - Cached - Similar pages
...
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20031119sally104col2p2.asp
Most famously, Boston writer James Parton (not Charles Dickens, who often gets the credit/blame) described the town as "hell with the lid off" in 1868. That's the kind of insult that sticks -- 135 years later we're still smarting.

...
...
(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
...
Pittsburg, by James Parton: pp. 17-36
p. 21 1 match of 'hell with the lid'
  in: Title:The Atlantic monthly. / Volume 21, Issue 123
Publisher:Atlantic Monthly Co.Publication Date:January 1868
City:BostonPages:770 page images in vol.

...
...
(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
...
The Home Circle.; CHATTY TALKS TO THE GIRLS.
CHATTY BROOKS. Arthur's Illustrated Home Magazine (1873-1879). Philadelphia: Aug 1878. Vol. 46, Iss. 8; p. 385 (3 pages)
...
PITTSBURG: A CITY ASHAMED; THE STORY OF A CITIZENS' PARTY THAT BROKE THROUGH ONE RING INTO ANOTHER
BY LINCOLN STEFFENS. McClure's Magazine (1893-1926). New York: May 1903. Vol. VOL. XXI, Iss. No. 1; p. 24 (16 pages)
...
PITTSBURG AT NIGHT
DRAWN BY JULES GUERIN. McClure's Magazine (1893-1926). New York: May 1903. Vol. VOL. XXI, Iss. No. 1; p. 0_001 (1 page)
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
THE SATURDAY EXODUS.; SCENES AT THE VESTRY-STREET WHARF GOING UP THE HUDSON.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 13, 1873. p. 2 (1 page) :
There is no doubt that New-York City can, when it chooses, be as hot a place as there is in the world, even so hot as to give an aptness to the profane excalamation of the California digger, that it is "like hell with the lid off."

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 19 12:21:24 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:21:24 -0400
Subject: "The Sound of Surprise"
Message-ID: 

Whitney Balliett defined jazz as "the sound of surprise."  Can anyone help
me trace the origins of this phrase?  I know of Balliett's 1959 book, The
sound of surprise : 46 pieces on jazz, but I assume he probably used it
before that.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Jun 19 13:16:57 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:16:57 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <64898.69.142.143.59.1119161974.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 02:19:34AM -0400, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:57:05 -0500, Mullins, Bill
>  wrote:
>
> >The Question Behind Those Beards
> >By HERBERT MITGANG
> >New York Times (1857-Current file); Apr 27, 1958;  pg. SM42
> >"Stand in front of a building on Broadway frequented by musicians; the
> >bopster and hipster goatees on display are an every-day mark of the cool
> >jazz man."
>
> Well, without some names or faces, we don't know if "goatee" referred to
> the classic chin whiskers of Thelonious Monk, the soul patch of Dizzy
> Gillespie, or both.
>
> I've come across both "jazz dab" and "jazz dot" to describe Dizzy's tuft,
> but I have yet to find any contemporaneous usage.

Here's a differently named, contemporaneous description, courtesy HDAS:

1956 E. Hunter _Second Ending_ 342: Dizzy Gillespie...wears a
little beard here under his lip, a sort of a goatee, a little
triangular thing. We call it a "Dizzy kick" in the trade.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 13:57:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:57:28 -0700
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

I heard "soul patch" in NYC in 1973.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: Re: The "soul patch"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 02:19:34AM -0400, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:57:05 -0500, Mullins, Bill
> wrote:
>
> >The Question Behind Those Beards
> >By HERBERT MITGANG
> >New York Times (1857-Current file); Apr 27, 1958; pg. SM42
> >"Stand in front of a building on Broadway frequented by musicians; the
> >bopster and hipster goatees on display are an every-day mark of the cool
> >jazz man."
>
> Well, without some names or faces, we don't know if "goatee" referred to
> the classic chin whiskers of Thelonious Monk, the soul patch of Dizzy
> Gillespie, or both.
>
> I've come across both "jazz dab" and "jazz dot" to describe Dizzy's tuft,
> but I have yet to find any contemporaneous usage.

Here's a differently named, contemporaneous description, courtesy HDAS:

1956 E. Hunter _Second Ending_ 342: Dizzy Gillespie...wears a
little beard here under his lip, a sort of a goatee, a little
triangular thing. We call it a "Dizzy kick" in the trade.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 14:03:20 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 07:03:20 -0700
Subject: mytho-ety-acronym "news"
Message-ID: 

A guest on _Fox & Friends_ has just informed the public that the word "news" derives from "North, East, West, and South !"

Exclamation mark in original.

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Sun Jun 19 14:06:50 2005
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:06:50 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower 
>Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
. . .
>
>Here's a differently named, contemporaneous description, courtesy HDAS:
>
>1956 E. Hunter _Second Ending_ 342: Dizzy Gillespie...wears a
>little beard here under his lip, a sort of a goatee, a little
>triangular thing. We call it a "Dizzy kick" in the trade.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED

The term I learned for this growth, circa 1982 from a Californian, was "womb
broom".

Orin Hargraves

From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Jun 19 15:17:29 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:17:29 -0500
Subject: "bailing wire"
In-Reply-To: <20050619055602.A36BB4B48@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: 

Aha!  Well, I guess that's egg (and corn) on my face.
--Tom

At 6/19/2005 01:55 AM -0400, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:08:24 -0500, Tom Kysilko  wrote:
>
> >At 6/18/2005 02:35 PM -0400, sagehen wrote:
> >> >-----
> >> >1958 _Panola Watchman_ (Carthage, Tex.) 25 Sep. 5/1 The simple
> >> >mechanism of the model "A" made it possible for any shade tree
> >> >mechanic to repair it only with a knuckle busting wrench, a pair
> >> >of pliers, and an adequate supply of bailing wire.
> >> >-----
> >>
> >>"  *bailing* wire."   Of course it _could_ mean wire of which bails
> >>were made, but I doubt if that was intended.
> >
> >I believe that just as 'shade tree' has expanded to contexts other the
> >auto mechanics, 'bailing wire' has expanded to include many materials
> >used for purposes, especially in an improvised way, other than their
> >original ones.  In fact, use of 'bailing wire' need not refer to any
> >material at all.  Just the other day, I described a piece of software
> >as being "held together with scotch tape and bailing wire" as a way of
> >suggesting that it was a mess of quick fixes and kluges.
>
>I'm pretty sure that Murie/sagehen was directing our attention to the
>eggcorn status of "bailing wire" rather than its metaphorical extension.
>I've added it to the Eggcorn Database in case there's any confusion...
>
>http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/386/bailing/
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer

   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 19 16:34:00 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:34:00 -0700
Subject: "conceptual plans"
Message-ID: 

I came across this puzzling expression in the Palo Alto Daily News of
6/16/05, in "High school plans unveiled" by Luke Stangel, which begins:

-----
Conceptual plans for a new $17 million performing arts center at
Menlo-Atherton High School were unveiled to the public last night at
a meeting planned for gathering feedback.
-----

The "concept" in "conceptual plans becomes clearer in a later paragraph:

-----
Hodgetts + Fung have designed several high-profile public buildings,
such as the Minneapolis Orchestra Amphitheater.  Their design--which
Craig Hodgetts admitted was still a "very loose concept"--faces
Middlefield Road and has room for a 500-seat theater and 100-seat
orchestra.
-----

Later it becomes clear that the conceptual plans are not mere rough
sketches, since numerous specific details are mentioned in the story.

Google gives ca. 31,700 webhits for "conceptual plans", including the
following definition in the home design context:

-----
Conceptual plans are home designs that have not yet been
finalized. ... Each of
the conceptual plans includes a "copyright release" that gives you
and your ...
www.conceptualhouseplans.com/faqs.shtml
-----

I would have used "preliminary plans" here, but I suppose that
architects and designers prefer to present themselves as dealing in
*concepts*.

I also noted the metonymy that has the *design* facing Middlefield Road.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 19 16:43:39 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:43:39 -0700
Subject: "bailing wire"
In-Reply-To: <64380.69.142.143.59.1119160559.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:55 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote:

> ... I'm pretty sure that Murie/sagehen was directing our attention
> to the
> eggcorn status of "bailing wire" rather than its metaphorical
> extension.
> I've added it to the Eggcorn Database in case there's any confusion...
>
> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/386/bailing/

ah, ben got there first and saved me the trouble.  i was surprised
that this one wasn't already in there.

arnold

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 17:15:33 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:15:33 -0700
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

Google turns up about 30,000 exx. of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" as a ridiculing epithet for the French.

The earliest ex. appears to be from Jan. 14, 2000, but the phrase was introduced on a _Simpsons_ episode - and, IIRC, was used only once - slightly earlier.

JL

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 19 17:28:11 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:28:11 -0400
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: recent francophobic slur>

> The earliest ex. appears to be from Jan. 14, 2000, but the phrase was
> introduced on a _Simpsons_ episode - and, IIRC, was used only once -
> slightly earlier.
> JL

This Simpson's site http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F32.html
indicates it was in an episode aired on 30 April, 1995.

sam

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 19 17:43:21 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:43:21 -0700
Subject: temporary misreading
Message-ID: 

from Lisa Zeidner's review of James Salter's Last Night, in the NYT
Book Review, 6/12/05, p. 13:

-----
Here the lonely married woman in "My Lord You" swims alone...  On
this excursion she first encounters the forlorn, hungry dog of an
unstable poet she met at a party.
-----

first time through, i read this as saying she encountered the poet,
who was, metaphorically, a forlorn, hungry dog.  but on reflection,
that can't be right; she's already met the poet, so this can't be her
first encounter with him.  and all is immediately clarified:

-----
Literally hounding her, the dog functions as a metaphor of her own
frayed marriage, yet the animal is still very much a vibrant, living
thing...
-----

i suspect i've been thinking too long about the "my idiot of a
brother" construction and its relatives.  my parser is primed for the
exotic.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 19 17:56:18 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:56:18 -0400
Subject: "conceptual plans"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>I came across this puzzling expression in the Palo Alto Daily News of
>6/16/05, in "High school plans unveiled" by Luke Stangel, which begins:
>
>-----
>Conceptual plans for a new $17 million performing arts center at
>Menlo-Atherton High School were unveiled to the public last night at
>a meeting planned for gathering feedback.
>-----
>
>The "concept" in "conceptual plans becomes clearer in a later paragraph:
>
>-----
>Hodgetts + Fung have designed several high-profile public buildings,
>such as the Minneapolis Orchestra Amphitheater.  Their design--which
>Craig Hodgetts admitted was still a "very loose concept"--faces
>Middlefield Road and has room for a 500-seat theater and 100-seat
>orchestra.
>-----
>
>Later it becomes clear that the conceptual plans are not mere rough
>sketches, since numerous specific details are mentioned in the story.
>
>Google gives ca. 31,700 webhits for "conceptual plans", including the
>following definition in the home design context:
>
>-----
>Conceptual plans are home designs that have not yet been
>finalized. ... Each of
>the conceptual plans includes a "copyright release" that gives you
>and your ...
>www.conceptualhouseplans.com/faqs.shtml
>-----
>
>I would have used "preliminary plans" here, but I suppose that
>architects and designers prefer to present themselves as dealing in
>*concepts*.
>
>I also noted the metonymy that has the *design* facing Middlefield Road.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
~~~~~~~~~~~
We had an electric stove some years ago -- don't remember the maker -- that
had the (to me) rather mysterious words "Concept Series" written on the
console. I guess it was intended to be impressive (which, perhaps it was,
since I remember it!) but I never did figure out why or what it was
supposed to mean.

On "bailing wire," it could be useful for bailiffs, perhaps, since their
duties are so multifarious.
 AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 19 18:14:11 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:14:11 -0700
Subject: benny/HDAS
In-Reply-To: <20050617111829.91051.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 17, 2005, at 4:18 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Yes, but I can never remember who. Can someone help me out here?
>
> What was the question?
>
> James C Stalker  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James C Stalker
> Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> Do you ever think,in the quiet hours of morning, "I've forgotten
> more than.
> . .ever knew"?

ah, this allows me to quote a bit about (possible) narrative
improvement.  from Janet Malcolm's "Someone Says Yes to It" (on Stein
and Toklas), The New Yorker, 6/13&20/05, p. 164:

-----
In "What Is Remembered," Toklas wrote of the "troubled, confused and
very uncertain" afternoon of the surgery.  "I sat next to her and she
said to me early in the afternoon, What is the answer?  I was
silent.  In that case, she said, what is the question?"  However, in
a letter to Van Vechten ten years earlier, Toklas had written:

.....
About Baby's last words.  She said upon waking from a sleep--What is
the question.  And I didn't answer thinking she was not completely
awakened.  Then she said again--What is the question and before I
could speak she went on--If there is no question then there is no
answer.
.....

Stein's biographers have naturally selected the superior "in that
case what is the question?" version.  Strong narratives win out over
weak ones when no obstacle of factuality stands in their way.  What
Stein actually said remains unknown.  That Toklas cited the lesser
version in a letter of 1953 is suggestive but not conclusive.
-----

umm, what was the question?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 18:50:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:50:48 -0400
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

>> The earliest ex. appears to be from Jan. 14, 2000, but the phrase was
>> introduced on a _Simpsons_ episode - and, IIRC, was used only once -
>> slightly earlier.
>>
>
>This Simpson's site http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F32.html
>indicates it was in an episode aired on 30 April, 1995.

Jonah Goldberg of the National Review was responsible for popularizing the
expression in early 2003.
For an opposing view on the matter, see this Molly Ivins column
("Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, eh?"):

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/columnists/molly_ivins/5222243.htm

--Ben Zimmer

From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Jun 19 18:52:25 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:52:25 -0400
Subject: "bailing wire"
In-Reply-To: <5605ECBB-9704-4EA8-AC5F-3B15F2E4D3D8@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: 

arnold,

Please be more careful; I almost corrected what I thought was your
remotive-perfective to "Done been got there..." or "Been done got
there...." Of course, I eventually retrieved "Ben." You may have to
go for caps bro.

dInIs

>On Jun 18, 2005, at 10:55 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote:
>
>>... I'm pretty sure that Murie/sagehen was directing our attention
>>to the
>>eggcorn status of "bailing wire" rather than its metaphorical
>>extension.
>>I've added it to the Eggcorn Database in case there's any confusion...
>>
>>http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/386/bailing/
>
>ah, ben got there first and saved me the trouble.  i was surprised
>that this one wasn't already in there.
>
>arnold

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Jun 19 20:07:42 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:07:42 -0700
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

I thought "sushi whore" was a funny, innovative marketing term
(www.sushiwhore.com) when I first spotted it earlier this year at Mashiko.

Today, though, I overheard a woman say, "I'm, like, a big clothes whore"
outside Caffe Fiore in Seattle in reference to her not having a large enough
closet. "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, "a sushi whore"
25, "a beer whore" 127, "a dog whore" 112 (though that includes many
beastiality references), "a coffee whore" 150, and "a Starbucks whore" no
fewer than 70.

It seems an X whore is someone who has a fondness for X beyond what is
normal. I wonder if the Starbucks reference is more at being exploited by X,
though. Surely that is part of the semantics at least some of the time.

The spelling of "ho" is basically non-existent. 1 Googit for "a clothes ho",
zero for sushi, 1 (maybe two) actual hits for beer ho, zero for dog ho,
three for coffee ho, and zero for Starbucks ho.

Counts for "whore" are raw Google numbers. Counts for "ho" are only hits
with this use of "ho".

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 19 20:12:46 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:12:46 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

"Attention whore" gets 79,000 Google hits.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Barrett" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: Generalized Whore

>I thought "sushi whore" was a funny, innovative marketing term
> (www.sushiwhore.com) when I first spotted it earlier this year at Mashiko.
>
> Today, though, I overheard a woman say, "I'm, like, a big clothes whore"
> outside Caffe Fiore in Seattle in reference to her not having a large
> enough
> closet. "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, "a sushi whore"
> 25, "a beer whore" 127, "a dog whore" 112 (though that includes many
> beastiality references), "a coffee whore" 150, and "a Starbucks whore" no
> fewer than 70.
>
> It seems an X whore is someone who has a fondness for X beyond what is
> normal. I wonder if the Starbucks reference is more at being exploited by
> X,
> though. Surely that is part of the semantics at least some of the time.
>
> The spelling of "ho" is basically non-existent. 1 Googit for "a clothes
> ho",
> zero for sushi, 1 (maybe two) actual hits for beer ho, zero for dog ho,
> three for coffee ho, and zero for Starbucks ho.
>
> Counts for "whore" are raw Google numbers. Counts for "ho" are only hits
> with this use of "ho".
>
> Benjamin Barrett
> Baking the World a Better Place
> www.hiroki.us
>

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Jun 19 20:19:21 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:19:21 -0700
Subject: Expanding the Definiton of Genocide
Message-ID: 

Googling for

define:genocide

results in definitions for genocide including racial, political, cultural,
religious, ethnic, or national group; an entire people, a population, or a
nation; and a language, religion or culture of a group. A similar definition
is in the papers today
(http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/disp
lay?slug=sungenocide19

&date=20050619&query=genocide) "defined by the United Nations as 'a specific
series of acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part, a
national, ethnic, racial, or religious group'" in "Preventing Genocide" by
Eric B. Larson and Reva N. Adler.

What seems to be missing from these definitions is genocide based on sex and
sexual orientation: "gay genocide" gets 618 Googits, "homosexual genocide"
gets 106, "sexual genocide" 238, "female genocide" 931, and "male genocide"
176. Perhaps these fit into "population", though that term seems a better
fit for prisoner genocide also seen in Nazi Germany.

Benjamin Barrett
Baking the World a Better Place
www.hiroki.us

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Jun 19 20:20:52 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:20:52 -0700
Subject: Generalized Whore
In-Reply-To: <200506191612.1dK6a01Q43Nl34h0@mx-mastin.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

Nice hit. This seems to be someone who _craves_ attention. BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements

> "Attention whore" gets 79,000 Google hits.

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 19 20:24:19 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:24:19 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

Did you notice that 77,000 of the hits were for Barry?  :)

(Sorry, Barry.  I just couldn't resist).

sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Barrett" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Generalized Whore

> Nice hit. This seems to be someone who _craves_ attention. BB
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements
>
>> "Attention whore" gets 79,000 Google hits.
>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 19 20:31:48 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:31:48 EDT
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 6/19/2005 4:24:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
SClements at NEO.RR.COM writes:

Did you  notice that 77,000 of the hits were for Barry?  :)

(Sorry,  Barry.  I just couldn't resist).

sam

Oh Sam. Whores don't work for free. Whores make money!
---Barry/Rodney

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 19 20:48:59 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:48:59 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: <20050618040027.EBC78B2433@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Larry writes:
   >>>>>
 It's a consequence of the law of preservation of number.  It's the
fault of the copy-editors at the U. of Chicago Press who (when they
can tear themselves away from their "which"es and "that"s) insist on
changing all 1st person plurals--including the joint
me-author-and-you-reader-are-in-this-together "we"--to singulars, so
that my references to e.g.

As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
We can see from these examples that...
We can distinguish the following cases:

were systematically changed to

As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
I can see from these examples that...
I can distinguish the following cases:
 <<<<<

You can tell them from me that they're nuts and that they ought to be
ashamed of themselves.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 19 20:52:12 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:52:12 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: <20050618040027.EBC78B2433@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Jonathan writes:
   >>>>>
"As I have seen in Chapter 2..."

It's like the T-shirts that say, "I'm schizophrenic and so am I"

I love it!
 <<<<<

So do we.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
   "Please allow me to introduce myselves..."

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 19 20:54:17 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:54:17 -0700
Subject: "bailing wire"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 19, 2005, at 11:52 AM, dInIs wrote:

> arnold,
>
> Please be more careful; I almost corrected what I thought was your
> remotive-perfective to "Done been got there..." or "Been done got
> there...." Of course, I eventually retrieved "Ben." You may have to
> go for caps bro.

>> ... ah, ben got there first and saved me the trouble.  i was
>> surprised
>> that this one wasn't already in there.

no way dude.

a

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 19 21:10:31 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:10:31 -0400
Subject: Soup Sandwich; When in danger or in doubt, run in circles,
 scream and shout
In-Reply-To: <20050619040045.9AA6BB2554@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

John Baker writes:
   >>>>>
        Robert Heinlein used "When in danger or in doubt . . . Run in
circles, scream and shout" in Time Enough for Love in 1973 and liked it
enough that he used it again in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls in 1985.
I don't know whether it was original with him or not.
 <<<<<

Long before I read Time Enough for Love -- in fact, long before it came out
-- I knew the rhyme as
        If at first you don't succeed
        slash your wrists and watch them bleed.
        When concerned and in great doubt
        wave your arms and run about.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 19 21:17:53 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:17:53 -0400
Subject: SummerStage (or, Summerstage)
In-Reply-To: <20050619040045.9AA6BB2554@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Barry cited:
> Among the 54 stunning visual images on display will be photographs of
> Celia Cruz from her very last live performance, Buddy Guy, Annie
> Lennox, Lady Blacksmith Mambazo,

Wilson asked:
>Shouldn't that be _Ladysmith Black Mambozo_?

Almost. It's "Ladysmith Black Mamb{a}zo". (I will nobly refrain from saying
anything about clowns, Wilson.)

Curiosity led me to Google them. From their web site
(http://www.mambazo.com/bio.html):

The name LADYSMITH BLACK MAMBAZO came about as a result of winning every
singing competition in which the group entered. "Ladysmith" is the hometown
of the Shabalala family; "Black" makes reference to black oxen, considered
to be the strongest on the farm. The Zulu word "Mambazo" refers to an ax -
symbolic of the group's ability to "chop down" the competition. So good were
they that after a time they were forbidden to enter the competitions but
welcomed, of course, to entertain at them.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 21:31:08 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:31:08 -0700
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Sam. I didn't have time to track it down.

Nightly _Simpsons_ reruns plus latter-day political frictions have helped rocket this phrase into - dare I say it? - Fred's purview.

JL

Sam Clements  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Sam Clements
Subject: Re: recent francophobic slur
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: recent francophobic slur>

> The earliest ex. appears to be from Jan. 14, 2000, but the phrase was
> introduced on a _Simpsons_ episode - and, IIRC, was used only once -
> slightly earlier.
> JL

This Simpson's site http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F32.html
indicates it was in an episode aired on 30 April, 1995.

sam

__________________________________________________
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 21:34:20 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:34:20 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
> "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, "a sushi whore"
> 25, "a beer whore" 127, "a dog whore" 112 (though that includes many
> beastiality references), "a coffee whore" 150, and "a Starbucks whore"
> no fewer than 70.

fashion whore: 6,220
label whore: 5,680
shoe whore: 3,660

Sam Clements wrote:
>
>"Attention whore" gets 79,000 Google hits.

camera whore: 11,000
publicity whore: 5,340

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 21:49:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:49:11 -0700
Subject: benny/HDAS
Message-ID: 

Ummm.  Huh?

?

"Arnold M. Zwicky"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 17, 2005, at 4:18 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Yes, but I can never remember who. Can someone help me out here?
>
> What was the question?
>
> James C Stalker wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James C Stalker
> Subject: Re: benny/HDAS
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> Do you ever think,in the quiet hours of morning, "I've forgotten
> more than.
> . .ever knew"?

ah, this allows me to quote a bit about (possible) narrative
improvement. from Janet Malcolm's "Someone Says Yes to It" (on Stein
and Toklas), The New Yorker, 6/13&20/05, p. 164:

-----
In "What Is Remembered," Toklas wrote of the "troubled, confused and
very uncertain" afternoon of the surgery. "I sat next to her and she
said to me early in the afternoon, What is the answer? I was
silent. In that case, she said, what is the question?" However, in
a letter to Van Vechten ten years earlier, Toklas had written:

.....
About Baby's last words. She said upon waking from a sleep--What is
the question. And I didn't answer thinking she was not completely
awakened. Then she said again--What is the question and before I
could speak she went on--If there is no question then there is no
answer.
.....

Stein's biographers have naturally selected the superior "in that
case what is the question?" version. Strong narratives win out over
weak ones when no obstacle of factuality stands in their way. What
Stein actually said remains unknown. That Toklas cited the lesser
version in a letter of 1953 is suggestive but not conclusive.
-----

umm, what was the question?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jun 19 22:14:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:14:52 -0700
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

There was a time - admittedly long ago - when the French defense of Paris in 1914 was common knowledge in the English-speaking world.  Without enough trucks, the French army commandeered Parisian taxis - and their drivers - to rush reserves into battle against the Germans. The First Battle of the Marne was probably the most costly battle in human history up to that time.

Less well known is the fact that French forces, already on the brink of collapse, fought on in 1940 to protect the rear of the British Army that was being evacuated at Dunkirk.  Some of them managed to be evacuated as well.

The fall of Dieb Bien Phu resulted less from French incompetence than from the logistic brilliance of General Giap and the extraordinary performance of the Viet Minh.  It happened after nearly a decade of warfare in which the French military doggedly fought to retain Indochina and halt Communism in Asia. By 1954, the U.S. was footing 80% of the bill, with no American troops at risk in combat.

One may argue that that was then, this is now.  But accusations of mass French cowardice are indeed idiotic.  Another favorite jape on Fox News Channel has been, "Wanna buy a second-hand French army rifle? Never used, dropped once."

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: recent francophobic slur
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> The earliest ex. appears to be from Jan. 14, 2000, but the phrase was
>> introduced on a _Simpsons_ episode - and, IIRC, was used only once -
>> slightly earlier.
>>
>
>This Simpson's site http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F32.html
>indicates it was in an episode aired on 30 April, 1995.

Jonah Goldberg of the National Review was responsible for popularizing the
expression in early 2003.
For an opposing view on the matter, see this Molly Ivins column
("Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, eh?"):

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/columnists/molly_ivins/5222243.htm

--Ben Zimmer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Jun 19 22:31:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:31:32 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:34:20 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>>
>> "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, [snip]

(I get 1,330 hits, by the way.)

>fashion whore: 6,220
>label whore: 5,680
>shoe whore: 3,660

Of these, the earliest found by a quick database search is "clothes
whore", from 1987.  (Toronto Star, 4/22/87, p. G3: "But suffer she must
because she is 'a clothes whore' - the willing victim of fashion.")  I
wonder if this was helped along by the semantically and phonetically
similar "clotheshorse".

>Sam Clements wrote:
>>
>>"Attention whore" gets 79,000 Google hits.
>
>camera whore: 11,000
>publicity whore: 5,340

"Publicity whore" also dates to 1987. (L.A. Times, 10/11/87, p. 27,
interview with David Mamet: "I'm a publicity whore just like the rest of
them. But I'm not a bimbo.")

All of the above also have variants with "slut" instead of "whore".

--Ben Zimmer

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 20 00:56:07 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:56:07 -0400
Subject: recent francophobic slur
In-Reply-To: <20050619171533.82860.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Google turns up about 30,000 exx. of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"
> as a ridiculing epithet for the French.

Wikipedia has a great little article on "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys."
This is actually, in my view, an outstanding example of Wikipedia at its
best, writing authoritatively about something that no traditional
encyclopedia would ever think of having an article about.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 20 01:06:54 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:06:54 -0400
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

From: "Fred Shapiro" 

> Wikipedia has a great little article on "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys."
> This is actually, in my view, an outstanding example of Wikipedia at its
> best, writing authoritatively about something that no traditional
> encyclopedia would ever think of having an article about.

One of very few, in my opinion.  Wikipedia still receives my scorn.  They
post articles which the average person take as gospel, even though they're
contributed by well-meaning people who aren't necessarily scholars.  The
scholarship is very deficient in my experience.

Instantly available mis-information is worse than slow moving correct
information.

Sam Clements

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 20 01:26:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:26:54 -0400
Subject: recent francophobic slur
In-Reply-To: <00a101c57534$593127b0$3b631941@sam>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Sam Clements wrote:

> One of very few, in my opinion.  Wikipedia still receives my scorn.  They
> post articles which the average person take as gospel, even though they're
> contributed by well-meaning people who aren't necessarily scholars.  The
> scholarship is very deficient in my experience.
>
> Instantly available mis-information is worse than slow moving correct
> information.

When I praised "Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys" as an example of
Wikipedia at its best, I did not mean to imply that there aren't many
examples of Wikipedia at its worst.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 01:49:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:49:00 -0700
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

At the touch of a button, one can Google up about 100,000 hits for "crack whore" ( a woman - later anyone - so addicted as to perform sex acts in return for crack cocaine).

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: Generalized Whore
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:34:20 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
wrote:

>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>>
>> "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, [snip]

(I get 1,330 hits, by the way.)

>fashion whore: 6,220
>label whore: 5,680
>shoe whore: 3,660

Of these, the earliest found by a quick database search is "clothes
whore", from 1987. (Toronto Star, 4/22/87, p. G3: "But suffer she must
because she is 'a clothes whore' - the willing victim of fashion.") I
wonder if this was helped along by the semantically and phonetically
similar "clotheshorse".

>Sam Clements wrote:
>>
>>"Attention whore" gets 79,000 Google hits.
>
>camera whore: 11,000
>publicity whore: 5,340

"Publicity whore" also dates to 1987. (L.A. Times, 10/11/87, p. 27,
interview with David Mamet: "I'm a publicity whore just like the rest of
them. But I'm not a bimbo.")

All of the above also have variants with "slut" instead of "whore".

--Ben Zimmer

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 01:54:05 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:54:05 -0700
Subject: recent francophobic slur
Message-ID: 

They don't do as well with "Axis of weasels" [sic], which I've heard (on Fox, of course) only without the plural "s." The non-count form makes it funnier, relatively speaking, of course.

JL

Fred Shapiro  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: Re: recent francophobic slur
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Google turns up about 30,000 exx. of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"
> as a ridiculing epithet for the French.

Wikipedia has a great little article on "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys."
This is actually, in my view, an outstanding example of Wikipedia at its
best, writing authoritatively about something that no traditional
encyclopedia would ever think of having an article about.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 02:05:58 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:05:58 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: <44774u$417u0u@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 19, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re: 'We' for 'I' in writing
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry writes:
>>>>>>
>  It's a consequence of the law of preservation of number.  It's the
> fault of the copy-editors at the U. of Chicago Press who (when they
> can tear themselves away from their "which"es and "that"s) insist on
> changing all 1st person plurals--including the joint
> me-author-and-you-reader-are-in-this-together "we"--to singulars, so
> that my references to e.g.
>
> As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
> We can see from these examples that...
> We can distinguish the following cases:
>
> were systematically changed to
>
> As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
> I can see from these examples that...
> I can distinguish the following cases:
>  <<<<<
>
> You can tell them from me

Didn't this concept used to be expressed as "... tell them _for_ me
..."? Or is this merely a case of a trivial difference in dialect?

-Wilson Gray

> that they're nuts and that they ought to be
> ashamed of themselves.
>
>
> -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
>    Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
>    a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
>    [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 02:10:34 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:10:34 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:49:00 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
 wrote:

>At the touch of a button, one can Google up about 100,000 hits for "crack
>whore" ( a woman - later anyone - so addicted as to perform sex acts in
>return for crack cocaine).

Even though "crack whore" is just an extension of the traditional sense of
"whore", I can see how it might have influenced the formation of other "X
whore" compounds where substance X is the object of a desperate obsession.

I forgot another common relative of "attention/publicity/camera whore":
"fame-whore".  That term often appears in online discussions of reality TV
stars and celebutantes like Paris Hilton (there's also the ppl. n./a.
"fame-whoring").

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 02:25:37 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:25:37 -0700
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
Message-ID: 

Francis J. Child's text of the ballad "Captain Ward and teh Rainbow," from an English broadside, has:

"Go tell the King of England, go tell him thus from me, /
         If he reign king of all the land, I will reign king at sea.?"   [ http://ling.lll.hawaii.edu/faculty/stampe/Oral-Lit/English/Child-Ballads/child.html#287 ]

The later version appearing here  [ http://www.contemplator.com/sea/ward.html ] has

"Go home, go home, says Captain Ward
And tell your king for me,
If he reigns king all on the land
Ward will reign king on the sea."

(The second site has a great Midi, BTW)

"From" sounds slightly more informal to me, but I'm sure I use both.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: 'We' for 'I' in writing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 19, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
> Subject: Re: 'We' for 'I' in writing
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry writes:
>>>>>>
> It's a consequence of the law of preservation of number. It's the
> fault of the copy-editors at the U. of Chicago Press who (when they
> can tear themselves away from their "which"es and "that"s) insist on
> changing all 1st person plurals--including the joint
> me-author-and-you-reader-are-in-this-together "we"--to singulars, so
> that my references to e.g.
>
> As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
> We can see from these examples that...
> We can distinguish the following cases:
>
> were systematically changed to
>
> As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
> I can see from these examples that...
> I can distinguish the following cases:
> <<<<<
>
> You can tell them from me

Didn't this concept used to be expressed as "... tell them _for_ me
..."? Or is this merely a case of a trivial difference in dialect?

-Wilson Gray

> that they're nuts and that they ought to be
> ashamed of themselves.
>
>
> -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
> Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
> a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 02:52:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:52:57 -0700
Subject: "an-" (verbal particle?)
Message-ID: 

All of us, including OED (with few exx., unfortunately), are familiar with the particle "a-," as in "a-running," "a-feudin' an' a-fightin'", etc.

But I was unfamiliar with the parallel use of "an-" before a vowel.  I hear it clearly in a 1952 recording of the Scottish farmhand Willie Mathieson (age 72) singing a traditional Scots forerunner of "The Streets of Laredo."  Mathieson learned it in Banffshire in 1933 :

"My head is an-aching, my heart is a-breaking,
Noo I'm a young man cut down in my prime."

This is a refrain, and "an-" is audible each time.

Or is "to nache" sinmply a reanalysis of "ache" ?  OED has no entry for it.

Mathieson's lyrics are accurately transcribed here :

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiLAREDS10.html

The album is Folkways F-3805 "The Unfortunate Rake" (1960).

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 03:03:00 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:03:00 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f0857n@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 19, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Orin Hargraves wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Orin Hargraves 
> Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower 
>> Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------
> --
> . . .
>>
>> Here's a differently named, contemporaneous description, courtesy
>> HDAS:
>>
>> 1956 E. Hunter _Second Ending_ 342: Dizzy Gillespie...wears a
>> little beard here under his lip, a sort of a goatee, a little
>> triangular thing. We call it a "Dizzy kick" in the trade.
>>
>> Jesse Sheidlower
>> OED
>

That sounds more obscure and, therefore, more hip than "soul patch."
However, as the author notes, "Dizzy kick" was used by people in the
trade. For those of us outside the trade, there was no term for it. I
read "soul patch" somewhere or other, so I have no idea of its actual
currency.

Speaking of Dizzy kicks/soul patches, how about the one that Frank
Zappa wore?

-Wilson Gray

> The term I learned for this growth, circa 1982 from a Californian, was
> "womb
> broom".
>
> Orin Hargraves
>

I learned that as a term for "mustache" ca.1952 in St. Louis. Another
term in use at the same place at the same time for the same thing was
"tissy puckler," still the funniest Spoonerism that I've ever heard in
real life, given that it was spoken  by the same speaker who, seconds
before, had just introduced us to "womb broom." Also, a man who wore a
mustache was said to "fight fire with fire."

-Wilson Gray

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Jun 20 03:25:25 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:25:25 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <13ed9a654e83edf7b70da126772a10c6@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

Has anyone mentioned Bruce Springsteen's soul patch?

At 11:03 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>On Jun 19, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Orin Hargraves wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       Orin Hargraves 
>>Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>>Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower 
>>>Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>-------
>>--
>>. . .
>>>
>>>Here's a differently named, contemporaneous description, courtesy
>>>HDAS:
>>>
>>>1956 E. Hunter _Second Ending_ 342: Dizzy Gillespie...wears a
>>>little beard here under his lip, a sort of a goatee, a little
>>>triangular thing. We call it a "Dizzy kick" in the trade.
>>>
>>>Jesse Sheidlower
>>>OED
>
>That sounds more obscure and, therefore, more hip than "soul patch."
>However, as the author notes, "Dizzy kick" was used by people in the
>trade. For those of us outside the trade, there was no term for it. I
>read "soul patch" somewhere or other, so I have no idea of its actual
>currency.
>
>Speaking of Dizzy kicks/soul patches, how about the one that Frank
>Zappa wore?
>
>-Wilson Gray
>
>
>>The term I learned for this growth, circa 1982 from a Californian, was
>>"womb
>>broom".
>>
>>Orin Hargraves
>
>I learned that as a term for "mustache" ca.1952 in St. Louis. Another
>term in use at the same place at the same time for the same thing was
>"tissy puckler," still the funniest Spoonerism that I've ever heard in
>real life, given that it was spoken  by the same speaker who, seconds
>before, had just introduced us to "womb broom." Also, a man who wore a
>mustache was said to "fight fire with fire."
>
>-Wilson Gray

From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Jun 20 03:46:52 2005
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:46:52 -0600
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <1549.209.226.25.252.1119147564.squirrel@webmail.nb.net>
Message-ID: 

Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced something like
(k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the last vowel
not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew the word as a
kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and henceforth felt
self-conscious about saying it.  As Doug suggests, as far as I can
remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or the name in
relation to the Japanese robe at all.  I think the reference was to a
woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.

Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
the kimono" before reading about it on this list.

Victoria

Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910

On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>
> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
> Japanese reference
> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
> some people still
> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
> thought knew that
> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
> lounging around in
> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to Japan (as an
> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
> India when they
> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
> non-ethnic sense
> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
> from before WW
> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
> think, although
> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>
> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
> peculiar since I
> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
> rather than "open
> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
> others): (1) "open
> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
> meaning "expose
> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
> word-for-word
> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
> meaning (with
> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
> same Japanese
> expression might have been translated again independently
> for the modern
> metaphor).
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Jun 20 03:50:43 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:50:43 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c5754a$b1e17660$f89ec5d8@vneufeldt>
Message-ID: 

I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the pronunciation, as
Vicki!  My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a ways, to the '20s
or '30s, I'd guess.

At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced something like
>(k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the last vowel
>not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew the word as a
>kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
>first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and henceforth felt
>self-conscious about saying it.  As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or the name in
>relation to the Japanese robe at all.  I think the reference was to a
>woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>
>Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>
>Victoria
>
>Victoria Neufeldt
>727 9th Street East
>Saskatoon, Sask.
>S7H 0M6
>Canada
>Tel: 306-955-8910
>
>
>On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
> >
> > It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
> > Japanese reference
> > at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
> > "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
> > some people still
> > use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
> > thought knew that
> > the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
> > lounging around in
> > a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to Japan (as an
> > inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
> > India when they
> > think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
> > non-ethnic sense
> > like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
> > from before WW
> > II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
> > think, although
> > perhaps not entirely exclusively.
> >
> > The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
> > peculiar since I
> > would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
> > rather than "open
> > the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
> > others): (1) "open
> > the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
> > meaning "expose
> > oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
> > word-for-word
> > from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
> > meaning (with
> > "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
> > same Japanese
> > expression might have been translated again independently
> > for the modern
> > metaphor).
> >
> > -- Doug Wilson
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
> >
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 20 04:05:58 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:05:58 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: <20050620022537.23331.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 7:25 PM -0700 6/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Francis J. Child's text of the ballad "Captain Ward and teh
>Rainbow," from an English broadside, has:
>
>"Go tell the King of England, go tell him thus from me, /
>          If he reign king of all the land, I will reign king at
>sea.?"   [
>http://ling.lll.hawaii.edu/faculty/stampe/Oral-Lit/English/Child-Ballads/child.html#287
>]
>
>The later version appearing here  [
>http://www.contemplator.com/sea/ward.html ] has
>
>"Go home, go home, says Captain Ward
>And tell your king for me,
>If he reigns king all on the land
>Ward will reign king on the sea."
>
>(The second site has a great Midi, BTW)
>
>"From" sounds slightly more informal to me, but I'm sure I use both.
>
>JL

I at least imagine there's a slight difference, emerging from the
usual function of "from" to indicate source and "for" either goal or,
in this case, benefactive/substitutive (= 'for the sake of').   The
"tell them from me", in other words, is something like 'make it clear
to them that the information comes from me', while "tell them for me"
is either 'tell them in my stead" or 'tell them for my sake' or
whatever, but in any case without the implication that I am (that is,
Mark is) the source of the opinion.

L

>
>Wilson Gray  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Wilson Gray
>Subject: Re: 'We' for 'I' in writing
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Jun 19, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
>>  Subject: Re: 'We' for 'I' in writing
>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  --------
>>
>  > Larry writes:
>>>>>>>
>>  It's a consequence of the law of preservation of number. It's the
>>  fault of the copy-editors at the U. of Chicago Press who (when they
>>  can tear themselves away from their "which"es and "that"s) insist on
>>  changing all 1st person plurals--including the joint
>>  me-author-and-you-reader-are-in-this-together "we"--to singulars, so
>>  that my references to e.g.
>>
>>  As we have seen in Chapter 2,...
>>  We can see from these examples that...
>>  We can distinguish the following cases:
>>
>>  were systematically changed to
>>
>>  As I have seen in Chapter 2,...
>>  I can see from these examples that...
>>  I can distinguish the following cases:
>  > <<<<<
>>
>>  You can tell them from me
>
>Didn't this concept used to be expressed as "... tell them _for_ me
>..."? Or is this merely a case of a trivial difference in dialect?
>
>-Wilson Gray
>
>>  that they're nuts and that they ought to be
>>  ashamed of themselves.
>>
>>
>>  -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
>>  Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
>>  a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
>>  [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Jun 20 04:16:09 2005
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:16:09 -0600
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050619234642.031e67a8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
> pronunciation, as
> Vicki!  My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
> ways, to the '20s
> or '30s, I'd guess.

Wow!  You mean my family may have been normal after all?

Vicki

>
> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
> >Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
> >That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
> something like
> >(k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
> last vowel
> >not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew
> the word as a
> >kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
> >first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
> henceforth felt
> >self-conscious about saying it.  As Doug suggests, as far as I can
> >remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
> the name in
> >relation to the Japanese robe at all.  I think the
> reference was to a
> >woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
> >
> >Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
> >the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
> >
> >Victoria
> >
> >Victoria Neufeldt
> >727 9th Street East
> >Saskatoon, Sask.
> >S7H 0M6
> >Canada
> >Tel: 306-955-8910
> >
> >
> >On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
> > >
> > > It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
> > > Japanese reference
> > > at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
> > > "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
> > > some people still
> > > use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
> > > thought knew that
> > > the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
> > > lounging around in
> > > a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
> Japan (as an
> > > inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
> > > India when they
> > > think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
> > > non-ethnic sense
> > > like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
> > > from before WW
> > > II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
> > > think, although
> > > perhaps not entirely exclusively.
> > >
> > > The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
> > > peculiar since I
> > > would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
> > > rather than "open
> > > the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
> > > others): (1) "open
> > > the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
> > > meaning "expose
> > > oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
> > > word-for-word
> > > from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
> > > meaning (with
> > > "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
> > > same Japanese
> > > expression might have been translated again independently
> > > for the modern
> > > metaphor).
> > >
> > > -- Doug Wilson
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
> > >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 20 04:14:21 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:14:21 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
In-Reply-To: <49418.69.142.143.59.1119233434.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 10:10 PM -0400 6/19/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:49:00 -0700, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>>At the touch of a button, one can Google up about 100,000 hits for "crack
>>whore" ( a woman - later anyone - so addicted as to perform sex acts in
>>return for crack cocaine).
>
>Even though "crack whore" is just an extension of the traditional sense of
>"whore", I can see how it might have influenced the formation of other "X
>whore" compounds where substance X is the object of a desperate obsession.
>
>I forgot another common relative of "attention/publicity/camera whore":
>"fame-whore".  That term often appears in online discussions of reality TV
>stars and celebutantes like Paris Hilton (there's also the ppl. n./a.
>"fame-whoring").
>
And then there's "money whore", which has 781 google hits--a
relatively small number, but interesting because it's *not* a simple
retronym, despite the fact that a traditional whore trades his/her
body for money.  A "money whore" (e.g. George Lucas in the first
googled instance) is someone accused of selling himself/herself out
metaphorically for money.

Here's an interesting application of the concept of extended "X whoredom":

http://sportsfrog.com/swamp/viewtopic.php?t=859
And why do people pick on athletes for everything they do? Keep
quiet, and you're not socially responsible. Open your mouth, and you
get ripped for whatever you say. Take the money, and you're a money
whore. Take a pay cut for a contender/champion, and you're a ring
whore. Stay on the same team for less than you may get elsewhere, and
you're obscure and people wonder when you're going to get out of
there and play on a better or more publicized team (i.e. Vlad
Guerrero, Mike Sweeney).

Can we, just once, let people make their own decisions without ripping them?

Larry

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 20 04:30:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:30:45 EDT
Subject: Laugh Whore; Stone Art
Message-ID: 

LAUGH WHORE
...
A recent NYC show was "Mario Cantone: Laugh Whore."
...
...
_Laugh Whore_ (http://www.nytheatre.com/nytheatre/laugh719.htm)      Mario 
Cantone in a scene from Laugh  Whore (photo ? Bill Streicher). Laugh Whore is a  
one-man show written and performed by Mario Cantone. ...
www.nytheatre.com/nytheatre/laugh719.htm - 21k -  _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:SOAEKkj6IU4J:www.nytheatre.com/nytheatre/laugh719.htm+"laug
h+whore"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nytheatre.com/nytheatre/laugh719.htm) 
...
_Laugh  Whore!_ (http://theater.about.com/b/a/171190.htm)       
Mario Cantone's one-man Broadway show is being aired on  Showtime next 
weekend. It runs May 28 at 9 PM, May 29 at 8:30 PM and May  30 at 9 PM. Laugh Whore 
is ...
theater.about.com/b/a/171190.htm - 25k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:i-VnZrUXzaIJ:theater.about.com/b/a/171190.htm+"laugh+whore"&hl=en&ie
=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:theater.about.com/b/a/171190.htm) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
STO
I walked by Columbus Circle, at the edge of  Central Park. A sign on a 
pedestal said "Stone
Yes, the "Stone Art" is a mime in heavy makeup,  usually motionless 
like a stone s
Is that what it's called, or is there another  name f

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 20 05:27:42 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:27:42 EDT
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

I walked by a Harlem restaurant on Malcolm X Boulevard (Lenox Avenue)  and 
about 120th Street. A sign on the wall said "No pork on my fork."
...
Ludacris said this. Is he Jewish? That would be luda--crazy. If anyone  has 
any info on where this comes from and how it is used, send it along but keep  
it kosher...Maybe I'll add it to the food section of my "Big Apple" site.
...
I'm not at NYU to check FACTIVA.
...
...
_http://www.buschheuer.walka.de/index2.php?p=774&c=1_ 
(http://www.buschheuer.walka.de/index2.php?p=774&c=1) 
 yesterday they aired _pulp  fiction_ 
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002MHB/qid=1116273652/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-1697352-7950466/elsebusc
hheus-20)  and it was running in the background, i hadn?t seen it in a long  
time, and i used to really thing it was great, and this time i saw it  
differently, understood it differently.
smiling, i heard the killer who had  been converted by a miracle, played by 
samuel l. jackson, referring to pork for  the umpteenth time, how dirty it was, 
and how it shouldn?t be eaten (no pork on  my fork). malcolm x had listened 
to the same sermons in the slammer, as a  small-time criminal and ex-junkie. 
he, who until then only had white women, wore  pointed patent leather shoes, and 
straightened his kinky hair, heard for the  first time that cigarettes, 
alcohol, drugs, pork, unmarried sex were the poison  of the white man.

...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_TITLE GOES HERE_ (http://www.writing.upenn.edu/cw/student_work/oltuski.html) 
     "So, do we want to go to No Pork  on My Fork for Groundhog Day?" It was 
the vegetarian  restaurant in Harlem that served fish. ...
www.writing.upenn.edu/cw/student_work/oltuski.html - 19k -  _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:J3l3DWZdXJsJ:www.writing.upenn.edu/cw/student_wor
k/oltuski.html+"no+pork+on+my+fork"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.writing.upenn.edu/cw/s
tudent_work/oltuski.html) 
...
_rachelleb.com:  More from Harlem_ (http://www.rachelleb.com/001271.html) 
No Pork  on My Fork, Harlem. No Pork on  My Fork may seem, at first thought, 
to be
a Kosher restuarant,  but it's actually a Muslim one. ...
www.rachelleb.com/001271.html - 11k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5OqJAsoKek4J:www.rachelleb.com/001271.html+"no+pork+on+my+fork"+harlem&
hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.rachelleb.com/001271.html)  
...
_LUDACRIS - HIP HOP QUOTABLES LYRICS_ 
(http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Hip-Hop-Quotables-lyrics-Ludacris/AFADE9F4D871C8EB48256DB9000A7A86)      put 
no pork on my  fork i dont even speak pig Latin I go fishen on my lake wit 
your  bitch as the bait Plus i eat many MC's but i dont gain no weight  ...
www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/  
Hip-Hop-Quotables-lyrics-Ludacris/AFADE9F4D871C8EB48256DB9000A7A86 - 19k -  _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:a_vAYAEr7FUJ:www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Hip-Hop-Quotables-lyrics-Ludacri
s/AFADE9F4D871C8EB48256DB9000A7A86+"no+pork+on+my+fork"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - 
_Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Hip-Hop-Quotables-lyrics-Ludacris/AFADE9F4D871C8EB48
256DB9000A7A86) 
...
_deviantART: Forums: i need a tattoo design_ 
(http://forum.deviantart.com/galleries/designs/420367/)      No pork on my  fork, no fish on my dish, my 
little white teef don't eat no beef My  print account: [link]. ~deadbatteries 
Subject: Re: i need a tattoo design  ...
forum.deviantart.com/galleries/designs/420367/ - 18k -  _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Sjahmu6kMYIJ:forum.deviantart.com/galleries/designs/4
20367/+"no+pork+on+my+fork"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:forum.deviantart.com/galleries/des
igns/420367/) 
...
_Letras de canciones de Ludacris - Chicken N Beer - Hip hop  quotables_ 
(http://www.letrascanciones.org/ludacris/chicken-n-beer/hip-hop-quotables.php)      

Its the chicken & the beer that make Luda keep  rappin But no pork on my fork 
i dont  even speak pig Latin I go fishen on my lake wit some bitches to bake  
...
www.letrascanciones.org/ludacris/  chicken-n-beer/hip-hop-quotables.php - 17k 
- _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TiF7pUMCRNcJ:www.letrascanciones.org/ludacris/chicken-n-beer/hip-hop-quotables.php+"no+pork+on+my+fork"&hl=
en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.letrascanciones.org/ludacris/chicken-n-beer/hip-hop-quotables
.php) 
(GOOGLE G
  There is a restaurant not far from Willy the Clinton, called
"No  Pork on My Fork." It is _not_ a Kosher  restaurant. ...   
_alt.callahans_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.callahans?hl=en)  -  
Nov 28 2004, 2:39 pm  by Walter Bushell - 1576 messages - 86 authors  

...
    _50  Greatest MCs Ever (first 20)_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.hip-hop/browse_thread/thread/7c578ddc10ea5a5b/f1e7a35e09016409?q="no+p
ork+on+my+fork"&rnum=8&hl=en#f1e7a35e09016409)  
... If you play some  old Kane shit for a "new school" head and he hears a 
line  like
"No pork on my fork, strictly  fish on my dish", then he's gonna laugh at it 
...   
_rec.music.hip-hop_ 
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.hip-hop?hl=en)  - Dec 30  1998, 10:04 pm by GoldenChild - 55 messages - 33 authors  

From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun 20 06:16:17 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:16:17 -0700
Subject: Generalized Whore
In-Reply-To: <200506191831.1dK8kd2aH3Nl34h2@mx-mastin.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

I get 1350 hits if I leave off the indefinite article. I generally use it
because it increases the likelihood of relevant hits, though it drastically
cuts down on the number of actual hits. BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer
>
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:34:20 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
>  wrote:
>
> >Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> >>
> >> "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, [snip]
>
> (I get 1,330 hits, by the way.)

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 20 06:16:42 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:16:42 EDT
Subject: "Cinderella Man" origin?; More "Big Apple" specialists?
Message-ID: 

CINDERELLA MAN
...
_http://www.imdb.com/find?q=%22cinderella%20man%22;s=all_
(http://www.imdb.com/find?q="cinderella%20man";s=all)
_The Cinderella Man_ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0007795/)  (1917)
...
I haven't seen the movie CINDERELLA MAN, but was the  nickname influenced by
the 1917 movie of the same title?
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
FWIW: MY AMAZON REVIEW
...
Another review was added for the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK STATE. Too bad I
can't comment on it.
...
(AMAZON.COM)
Great Encyclopedia, June 20, 2005
I got my copy and  am impressed. Peter Eisenstadt did a great job for the
Encyclopedia of New York  City and now for the Encyclopedia of New York State. I
especially like its  eclectic selection of entries, besides old standbyes such
as "Big Apple" (for  which there are several specialists), also "sausage
making in NYS," my  fave.
...
...
There are several "Big Apple" specialists? Who are they? They've written
books? Papers? Who? Nancy Groce? That "Big Apple" classic, SONGS OF THE CITY by
Nancy Groce?
...
The sausage making article? This person liked the line "'Hot dogs' were a
popular snack, and the nickname was first recorded in 1895"? Got a lot of money
and credit for that one. Is this some cruel joke?
...
Who is this reviewer, "karpaten" from Albany, NY? I just e-mailed this
person (listed in the YAHOO! member directory), so stay tuned for those other  "Big
Apple" specialists!

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 06:22:16 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:22:16 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:27:42 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>I walked by a Harlem restaurant on Malcolm X Boulevard (Lenox Avenue)
>and about 120th Street. A sign on the wall said "No pork on my fork."
>...
>Ludacris said this. Is he Jewish? That would be luda--crazy. If anyone
>has any info on where this comes from and how it is used, send it along
>but keep it kosher...Maybe I'll add it to the food section of my "Big
>Apple" site.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that no, Ludacris is not Jewish.
(Or was that an allusion to the line in _Pulp Fiction_ where John Travolta
asks Samuel Jackson if he's Jewish for not eating pork?)  In any case,
Ludacris might be referencing an earlier rap song -- Big Daddy Kane's
"Young Gifted and Black" (not to be confused with Nina Simone's similarly
titled song) from his 1989 album _It's A Big Daddy Thing_.

-----
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/bigdaddy/bigdaddy/young.bdk.txt
No pork on my fork, strictly fish on my dish
The Kane fallin victim?  *tchk*  Sucker, you wish
-----

Big Daddy Kane is a member of the Nation of Islam (actually, an offshoot
of NOI known as The Five Percent).  Not surprisingly, the No Pork On My
Fork restaurant in Harlem is run by NOI.

-----
http://travel.guardian.co.uk/cities/story/0,7450,532849,00.html
No Pork on my Fork
Adam Clayton Av at African Square
Self-explanatory Nation of Islam restaurant for Louis Farrakhan supporters
only.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 06:37:18 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:37:18 -0400
Subject: "Cinderella Man" origin?; More "Big Apple" specialists?
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:16:42 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>CINDERELLA MAN
>...
>_http://www.imdb.com/find?q=%22cinderella%20man%22;s=all_
>(http://www.imdb.com/find?q="cinderella%20man";s=all)
>_The Cinderella Man_ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0007795/)  (1917)
>...
>I haven't seen the movie CINDERELLA MAN, but was the  nickname influenced
>by the 1917 movie of the same title?

As mentioned in numerous reviews of the movie, Damon Runyon gave Jim
Braddock the "Cinderella Man" nickname. See also Jeremy Schaap's new book
_Cinderella Man: James Braddock, Max Baer, and the Greatest Upset in
Boxing History_. I checked the book using the Amazon search feature but
didn't see an exact quote from Runyon. Schaap simply says that in the
leadup to the title fight with Baer in June 1935, Runyon, covering boxing
for the _New York American_ "had recently dubbed Braddock the Cinderella
Man" (p. 240).

No idea if Runyon nicked the nickname from the 1917 movie.

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 06:45:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:45:15 -0400
Subject: "Cinderella Man" origin?; More "Big Apple" specialists?
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:37:18 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:16:42 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>CINDERELLA MAN
>>...
>>_http://www.imdb.com/find?q=%22cinderella%20man%22;s=all_
>>(http://www.imdb.com/find?q="cinderella%20man";s=all)
>>_The Cinderella Man_ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0007795/)  (1917)
>>...
>>I haven't seen the movie CINDERELLA MAN, but was the nickname influenced
>>by the 1917 movie of the same title?
>
>As mentioned in numerous reviews of the movie, Damon Runyon gave Jim
>Braddock the "Cinderella Man" nickname. See also Jeremy Schaap's new book
>_Cinderella Man: James Braddock, Max Baer, and the Greatest Upset in
>Boxing History_. I checked the book using the Amazon search feature but
>didn't see an exact quote from Runyon. Schaap simply says that in the
>leadup to the title fight with Baer in June 1935, Runyon, covering boxing
>for the _New York American_ "had recently dubbed Braddock the Cinderella
>Man" (p. 240).
>
>No idea if Runyon nicked the nickname from the 1917 movie.

Or the earlier Broadway play.

http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?ID=8260

--Ben Zimmer

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 11:05:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 04:05:55 -0700
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual pronunciation, isn't it?

I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.

JL

Victoria Neufeldt  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
> pronunciation, as
> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
> ways, to the '20s
> or '30s, I'd guess.

Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?

Vicki

>
> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
> >Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
> >That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
> something like
> >(k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
> last vowel
> >not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
> the word as a
> >kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
> >first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
> henceforth felt
> >self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
> >remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
> the name in
> >relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
> reference was to a
> >woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
> >
> >Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
> >the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
> >
> >Victoria
> >
> >Victoria Neufeldt
> >727 9th Street East
> >Saskatoon, Sask.
> >S7H 0M6
> >Canada
> >Tel: 306-955-8910
> >
> >
> >On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
> > >
> > > It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
> > > Japanese reference
> > > at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
> > > "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
> > > some people still
> > > use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
> > > thought knew that
> > > the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
> > > lounging around in
> > > a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
> Japan (as an
> > > inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
> > > India when they
> > > think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
> > > non-ethnic sense
> > > like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
> > > from before WW
> > > II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
> > > think, although
> > > perhaps not entirely exclusively.
> > >
> > > The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
> > > peculiar since I
> > > would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
> > > rather than "open
> > > the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
> > > others): (1) "open
> > > the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
> > > meaning "expose
> > > oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
> > > word-for-word
> > > from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
> > > meaning (with
> > > "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
> > > same Japanese
> > > expression might have been translated again independently
> > > for the modern
> > > metaphor).
> > >
> > > -- Doug Wilson
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
> > >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05

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From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Jun 20 12:18:54 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:18:54 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050619232331.031d2f08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

Another term for it is "flavor saver," presumably due to the food
that gets caught in it. There's a 1986 hit on Google Groups where the
term refers to a beard and mustache together.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.singles/msg/ba9c977e8b17d14c

The next hit there where it specifically refers to the tuft of hair
beneaht the lower lip (which is what I know it as) is 1996.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.gdead/msg/722ff50238401211

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Jun 20 12:58:41 2005
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:58:41 -0400
Subject: "paper-pusher"
In-Reply-To: <20050619001606.38848.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Here are a couple; in the second cite, the term seems to mean
something similar to "pencil pusher."

PAPERHANGER.  A professional who passes forged checks.
Also _kid-glove worker_, _passer_, _paper-pusher_, _pusher_,
_shover_, the last three terms being reserved for men who pass
counterfeit money.

by D.W. Maurer
Univ. of Louisville
American Speech
December, 1941
page 248

In twenty minutes McCollum had drawn out the facts of Bert's
epxerience in and out of school, and had determined to his own
satisfaction that Bert would never be any good as a lawyer or in
fact as any kind of a _paper-pusher_; . . .

Walter V. Bingham
Infantry Journal
October, 1942
Page 25

On 18 Jun 2005, at 17:16, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?
>
> JL
>

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster

From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Mon Jun 20 13:26:27 2005
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Lemay)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:26:27 +0000
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

I've always known it as an "imperial".

From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 20 13:34:49 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:34:49 -0400
Subject: "paper-pusher"
In-Reply-To: <42B68541.3678.F8E869C@localhost>
Message-ID: 

Maurer's 'paper-pusher' depends on the meaning of "paper" as bad
checks (or securities, etc...) and "push" in the sense of "foist off
on the unsuspecting." The other 'paper-push" derives from tedious
office routine (pushing stuff around from one pile to the other).
There is probably no connection here.

dInIs

>Here are a couple; in the second cite, the term seems to mean
>something similar to "pencil pusher."
>
>PAPERHANGER.  A professional who passes forged checks.
>Also _kid-glove worker_, _passer_, _paper-pusher_, _pusher_,
>_shover_, the last three terms being reserved for men who pass
>counterfeit money.
>
>by D.W. Maurer
>Univ. of Louisville
>American Speech
>December, 1941
>page 248
>
>
>In twenty minutes McCollum had drawn out the facts of Bert's
>epxerience in and out of school, and had determined to his own
>satisfaction that Bert would never be any good as a lawyer or in
>fact as any kind of a _paper-pusher_; . . .
>
>Walter V. Bingham
>Infantry Journal
>October, 1942
>Page 25
>
>On 18 Jun 2005, at 17:16, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>  Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?
>>
>>  JL
>>
>
>Joanne Despres
>Merriam-Webster

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 13:46:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 06:46:35 -0700
Subject: "paper-pusher"
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Joanne. The sense "passer of counterfeit money" is extremely rare ("paperhanger" is better known).

By sheer coincidence, a friend of mine yesterday observed that "All that paper-pushing is gettin' the best of me." (He meant paperwork, of course.)

JL

"Joanne M. Despres"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Joanne M. Despres"
Subject: Re: "paper-pusher"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a couple; in the second cite, the term seems to mean
something similar to "pencil pusher."

PAPERHANGER. A professional who passes forged checks.
Also _kid-glove worker_, _passer_, _paper-pusher_, _pusher_,
_shover_, the last three terms being reserved for men who pass
counterfeit money.

by D.W. Maurer
Univ. of Louisville
American Speech
December, 1941
page 248

In twenty minutes McCollum had drawn out the facts of Bert's
epxerience in and out of school, and had determined to his own
satisfaction that Bert would never be any good as a lawyer or in
fact as any kind of a _paper-pusher_; . . .

Walter V. Bingham
Infantry Journal
October, 1942
Page 25

On 18 Jun 2005, at 17:16, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?
>
> JL
>

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
 Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Jun 20 13:49:47 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c5754a$b1e17660$f89ec5d8@vneufeldt>
Message-ID: 

Victoria Neufeldt writes:
>Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced something like
>(k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the last vowel
>not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew the word as a
>kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
>first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and henceforth felt
>self-conscious about saying it.  As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or the name in
>relation to the Japanese robe at all.  I think the reference was to a
>woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>
>Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>the kimono" before reading about it on this list.

Victoria
 ~~~~~~~~~~
This is almost exactly what I would have said in responding to this thread,
including the last sentence.
A. Murie

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Jun 20 14:01:20 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:01:20 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>I at least imagine there's a slight difference, emerging from the
>usual function of "from" to indicate source and "for" either goal or,
>in this case, benefactive/substitutive (= 'for the sake of').   The
>"tell them from me", in other words, is something like 'make it clear
>to them that the information comes from me', while "tell them for me"
>is either 'tell them in my stead" or 'tell them for my sake' or
>whatever, but in any case without the implication that I am (that is,
>Mark is) the source of the opinion.
>
>L
 ~~~~~~~~
To my ear. the "from" form has a slightly imperious tone, while the "for"
one  is more like simply asking a favor.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 14:40:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:40:44 -0500
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

> Has anyone mentioned Bruce Springsteen's soul patch?

Yeah, Clarence Clemons did.  He said, "Bruce, that's one ugly soul patch
you've got there."

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Jun 20 15:04:58 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:04:58 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D9FDC37@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.a
 rmy.mil>
Message-ID: 

At 10:40 AM 6/20/2005, you wrote:
> > Has anyone mentioned Bruce Springsteen's soul patch?
>
>Yeah, Clarence Clemons did.  He said, "Bruce, that's one ugly soul patch
>you've got there."

I agree!  Unless "ugly" means "beautiful," as "bad" may mean "good"?

From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Jun 20 15:40:49 2005
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:40:49 -0400
Subject: "paper-pusher"
In-Reply-To: <20050620134636.10018.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Sure thing, Jonathan.  I wasn't sure which sense you were after, so
I sent 'em both.

Glad to hear your friend does the honest kind of paper-pushing.
We do a lot of that here, too -- along with button-pushing (on the
computer keyboard, that is).

Joanne

On 20 Jun 2005, at 6:46, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Thanks, Joanne. The sense "passer of counterfeit money" is extremely rare ("paperhanger" is better known).
>
> By sheer coincidence, a friend of mine yesterday observed that "All that paper-pushing is gettin' the best of me." (He meant paperwork, of course.)
>
> JL
>
> "Joanne M. Despres"  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Joanne M. Despres"
> Subject: Re: "paper-pusher"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here are a couple; in the second cite, the term seems to mean
> something similar to "pencil pusher."
>
> PAPERHANGER. A professional who passes forged checks.
> Also _kid-glove worker_, _passer_, _paper-pusher_, _pusher_,
> _shover_, the last three terms being reserved for men who pass
> counterfeit money.
>
> by D.W. Maurer
> Univ. of Louisville
> American Speech
> December, 1941
> page 248
>
>
> In twenty minutes McCollum had drawn out the facts of Bert's
> epxerience in and out of school, and had determined to his own
> satisfaction that Bert would never be any good as a lawyer or in
> fact as any kind of a _paper-pusher_; . . .
>
> Walter V. Bingham
> Infantry Journal
> October, 1942
> Page 25
>
> On 18 Jun 2005, at 17:16, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > Can anyone find a pre-1944 ex. "paper-pusher" and/or "paper-pushing"?
> >
> > JL
> >
>
> Joanne Despres
> Merriam-Webster
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
>  Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Mon Jun 20 15:52:15 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:52:15 -0500
Subject: "Flavor saver" (soul patch?)l
Message-ID: 

 From the Doubletongued LiveJournal feed:

08:05 am - flavor saver

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/flavor_saver/
n. facial hair, specifically a beard tuft beneath the lower lip.
Technorati categorization: English. Citations, subject labels, comments,
and more information are available at Double-Tongued Word Wrester.

The two oldest citations are from Usenet newsgroups:

1986 [frye] Usenet: soc.singles (Sept. 25) ?Lynn Gold wants to know ?why
oral sex...??: I have a tube of toothpaste to clean up with a little
later?and a bar of soap to clean up the flavor saver?er?beard and
moustache. 1996 [Kimberly Dewey] Usenet: rec.music.gdead (May 15) ?Re:
Did Jerry prefer Hostess or Drake?s??: My housemate calls those little,
tiny, under the lip pieces of beard (a la grunge musicians) a ?flavor
saver.?

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 16:30:33 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:30:33 -0500
Subject: bubble gum
Message-ID: 

"bubble gum" -- OED has 1937 for confectionary sense

""Bubble Gum" Doesn't Bubble And Victims Are Angry."
Texas | Wichita Falls | Wichita Daily Times | 1911-11-07 p. 7 col 2.
"Citizens of Waukegan, Ill. are up in arms against a swindler who
visited their city some days ago and sold them "bubble gum." They assert
with great indignation that it does not "bubble" as the seller claimed."

and OED has 1969 for the music sense

"The Singing 'Mini-Mom' With a Big Family" By JUDY KLEMESRUD
New York Times; Aug 5, 1968; pg. 48 col 4.
"As a result, their detractors often call them the "Kool-Aid Kids" and
their music "Bubble Gum Rock". "

From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 16:56:28 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:56:28 -0700
Subject: Word nerds
Message-ID: 

The Word Nerds are two guys who podcast about
etymology.

http://thewordnerds.libsyn.com/

I only listened to one podcast so far, but it seems
like they could use some help with fact checking.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 17:14:24 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:14:24 -0500
Subject: hot rod
Message-ID: 

 hot rod -- OED has 1945 for "A motor vehicle specially modified to give
high power and speed"

"DELINQUENCY OFTEN RESULT OF TRUANCY" GENE SHERMAN, Los Angeles Times;
May 31, 1943;  pg. 5 col 2.
"My brother was barreling around in a hot rod (that's a cut-down car)
and I thought that was the thing to do."

hot rodder -- OED has 1949

[cite in headline]" 'Hot Rodder' Gives Critic Hot Reply" May 9, 1947;
pg. A12 col 6.

[cite in headline]
"Hot Rodder Up for Sentence on Dec. 11" California | Van Nuys | The Van
Nuys News | 1947-11-20 p. 1 col 5.

hot rodding -- OED has 1953
"Odds and Ends" Illinois | Murphysboro | The Daily Independent |
1948-02-21 p. 2 col 2.
"Senator Alexander Wiley, Rep., Wis., feels that right now is the time
to prepare to legislate by television in event some jet-propelled
contraption comes hot-rodding through the heavens and lays a few atomic
bombs on this fair land,
beginning with the Capital."

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 17:24:15 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:24:15 -0500
Subject: speedometer
Message-ID: 

OED has 1904

FINE RECORD FOR A NEW LINE.
Chicago Daily Tribune; Sep 17, 1897; pg. 10 col 2.

"From Siloam Springs to Stillwell, twenty-nine miles, is down grade, and
in some places the speedometer showed a gait of over a mile a minute."

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 17:45:20 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:45:20 -0500
Subject: "Happy as a puppy with two peters"
Message-ID: 

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/6/19/nation/11262103&sec
=nation

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 17:53:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:53:40 -0700
Subject: "Happy as a puppy with two peters"
Message-ID: 

If this isn't a fake, it's amazing that the little guy has survived.  Most such extreme mutations die very quickly.

Among the phrases that got my attention in Tennessee thirty years ago were "horny as a three-peckered billygoat" and "...as a three-balled tomcat."

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: "Happy as a puppy with two peters"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/6/19/nation/11262103&sec
=nation

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 20 17:54:26 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:54:26 -0400
Subject: Soul Patch
Message-ID: 

If I remember correctly, when Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay fought Archie
Moore, he annoyed Moore by insisting that Moore's under-lip beard was
in violation of boxing rules and had to be shaved off for the fight.
This would be mid-60s, post-Dizzy, of course.  I forget whether Ali's
fight with Moore was before his conversion or after.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 17:54:45 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:54:45 -0500
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

There's a barbecue restaurant here in Huntsville that has the slogan:
"Too much pork for just one fork".

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 17:56:07 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:56:07 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42k64s$3ssd6e@mx22.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 9:49 AM, sagehen wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       sagehen 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Victoria Neufeldt writes:
>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced something like
>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the last vowel
>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew the word as a
>> kid

Yep, me too.

>> in western Canada,

>> long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and henceforth felt
>> self-conscious about saying it.

Yep, me too.

>> As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or the name in
>> relation to the Japanese robe at all.  I think the reference was to a
>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.

Right. It was an article of women's clothing. And, considering that we
were fighting the Japanese at the time, if people had known that they
were speaking pseudo-Japanese, the name would have been changed to
"freedom robe."

>>
>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>

Nope, me neither.

> Victoria
>  ~~~~~~~~~~
> This is almost exactly what I would have said in responding to this
> thread,
> including the last sentence.
> A. Murie

Yep, me too.

-Wilson Gray

From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun 20 17:58:43 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:58:43 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D9FDC75@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

What! Long-o and open-o are not preserved before /r/ in Alabama! I
don't eat no barbecue made by no vowel conflaters.

dInIs (who knows his horse from his sore throat)

>There's a barbecue restaurant here in Huntsville that has the slogan:
>"Too much pork for just one fork".

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 18:02:51 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:02:51 -0500
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

You can't really use Huntsville as a guide for Alabama or southern
speech.  Remember, this is the city where, when Wernher von Braun was
speaking to a bunch of aerospace executives during the Apollo program in
the 1960's (he had arrived just before the boom -- he caused the boom --
in 1950), "You can tell us Huntsville old-timers by our southern
accents" (spoken with a very correct Prussian accent . . .)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:59 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> What! Long-o and open-o are not preserved before /r/ in
> Alabama! I don't eat no barbecue made by no vowel conflaters.
>
> dInIs (who knows his horse from his sore throat)
>
> >There's a barbecue restaurant here in Huntsville that has the slogan:
> >"Too much pork for just one fork".
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 18:03:02 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:03:02 -0500
Subject: lemon
Message-ID: 

Lemon (automotive sense)  -- OED has a 1931 cite

"Used Auto Problems Grow Acute"
California | Oakland | The Oakland Tribune | 1923-03-11 p. O-7, col 1.
"In one city the used car department, separate from the salesrooms of a
prominent dealer, disposed of a used car for S300 and the manager of
that department congratulated himself upon having rid himself of a
"lemon" finally. "

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 20 18:09:25 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:09:25 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <20050620040007.8EFBCB25D1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Victoria Neufeldt  quoth:
>>>>
Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced something like
(k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the last vowel
not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew the word as a
kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and henceforth felt
self-conscious about saying it.
<<<<

I've seen it written "kimona", I *think* as 'housecoat'; not in the context
of "open the...". But of course a person learning it as 'housecoat' could
easily have carried the pron. & spelling back to the Japanese garment once
they learned of it.

-- Mark A. Mandel

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 20 18:21:58 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:21:58 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <5933.69.142.143.59.1119248536.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 2:22 AM -0400 6/20/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:27:42 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>I walked by a Harlem restaurant on Malcolm X Boulevard (Lenox Avenue)
>>and about 120th Street. A sign on the wall said "No pork on my fork."
>>...
>>Ludacris said this. Is he Jewish? That would be luda--crazy. If anyone
>>has any info on where this comes from and how it is used, send it along
>>but keep it kosher...Maybe I'll add it to the food section of my "Big
>>Apple" site.
>
>I'm going to take a wild guess and say that no, Ludacris is not Jewish.
>(Or was that an allusion to the line in _Pulp Fiction_ where John Travolta
>asks Samuel Jackson if he's Jewish for not eating pork?)  In any case,
>Ludacris might be referencing an earlier rap song -- Big Daddy Kane's
>"Young Gifted and Black" (not to be confused with Nina Simone's similarly
>titled song) from his 1989 album _It's A Big Daddy Thing_.
>

Or with Lorraine ("Raisin in the Sun") Hansberry's 1969 posthumous
collection of almost the same name (_To Be Young, Gifted and Black_;
Hansberry herself never made it even to middle age, succumbing to
cancer).   I'm assuming her book predated Nina Simone's song (both of
them preceding Aretha's cover by a couple of years), but I don't know
for sure.  (There's also a web site attributing the phrase to Elton
John, but I suspect that isn't quite right.)

Larry

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 18:03:29 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:03:29 -0400
Subject: bubble gum
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:30:33 -0500, Mullins, Bill
 wrote:

>"bubble gum" -- OED has 1937 for confectionary sense
[...]
>
>and OED has 1969 for the music sense
>
>"The Singing 'Mini-Mom' With a Big Family" By JUDY KLEMESRUD
>New York Times; Aug 5, 1968; pg. 48 col 4.
>"As a result, their detractors often call them the "Kool-Aid Kids" and
>their music "Bubble Gum Rock". "

HDAS has a 1963 cite for "bubble gum music".

--Ben Zimmer

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 18:04:35 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:04:35 -0500
Subject: bubble gum
Message-ID: 

>
> HDAS has a 1963 cite for "bubble gum music".
>
Pulled from Jonathan's own stack of Archies 45's, no doubt.

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 20 18:03:59 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:03:59 -0400
Subject: Generalized Whore
Message-ID: 

Benjamin Barrett  sez:
>>>>
I thought "sushi whore" was a funny, innovative marketing term
(www.sushiwhore.com) when I first spotted it earlier this year at Mashiko.

Today, though, I overheard a woman say, "I'm, like, a big clothes whore"
outside Caffe Fiore in Seattle in reference to her not having a large enough
closet. "A clothes whore" gets no fewer than 332 Googits, "a sushi whore"
25, "a beer whore" 127, "a dog whore" 112 (though that includes many
beastiality references), "a coffee whore" 150, and "a Starbucks whore" no
fewer than 70.
<<<<

Button seen >1x at sf conventions: "Harmony slut -- I'll sing with anyone".
(I spend much of my time at cons singing. This is more of a filkers' *
button than an sf button.)

* http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/filk.html

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
    http://filk.cracksandshards.com/
    Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 18:28:26 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:28:26 -0500
Subject: spark plug
Message-ID: 

OED:     2. fig. One who or that which initiates or is the driving force
behind any activity or undertaking. colloq. (chiefly U.S.).    1941 Sun
(Baltimore) 24 Aug. 15/2 Introducing Hal Sieling... He's sparkplug of
infield.

"Bob Hamilton Stars as Blocker" California | Oakland | The Oakland
Tribune | 1933-11-13  p. B-12 Col 4.
"Often the writers and the speakers speak of a team's spark plug."

"Austin Signs, Saying Cut in Pay Expected" The Washington Post; Jan 30,
1918; pg. 8 col 1.
"James P. Austin, the "spark plug" of the Browns and one of the three
playes of the club given salary cuts for the coming season, hs signed
his contract for another year at a lower figure."

"A Line 'O Type or Two" Chicago Daily Tribune; Feb 5, 1917; pg. 6 col 3.
"EVERETT, Wash., slogans:  "Everett, the Spark Plug of the West.""

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 18:36:04 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:36:04 -0400
Subject: Soul Patch
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:54:26 -0400, George Thompson
 wrote:

>If I remember correctly, when Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay fought Archie
>Moore, he annoyed Moore by insisting that Moore's under-lip beard was
>in violation of boxing rules and had to be shaved off for the fight.
>This would be mid-60s, post-Dizzy, of course.  I forget whether Ali's
>fight with Moore was before his conversion or after.

That was pre-conversion, in Nov. '62 (Clay became Ali after the Liston
fight in Feb. '64).

Moore's facial hair had been an issue since the mid-'50s.  Most press
accounts referred to Moore's "goatee", but a 1957 piece by Gay Talese in
the New York Times called it a "vestigial Vandyke beard".

--Ben Zimmer

From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Jun 20 18:56:38 2005
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:56:38 -0600
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use (was: "opening the kimono" (1979?,
 1984))
In-Reply-To: <20050620110555.2041.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Monday, June 20, 2005 5:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
> pronunciation, isn't it?
>
> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>
> JL
>

Well, M-W's 11th Collegiate and New Oxford American have a "long-o"
final syllable for the first pronun listed, with the schwa pron as the
single alternate; American Heritage 4th and Webster's New World 4th
list the schwa pron first, with the long o as an alternate pron of
almost equal currency (i.e., in case anyone isn't clear on this, the
two prons are separated by a comma, which is usual lexicographic style
for "equal currency or slightly less common"; if the variant is
significantly less common, it's normally preceded by "also" or
"sometimes" or a regional label, etc.).  I can't access my Kenyon &
Knott right now.  Also, in my pron and presumably Beverly's, the final
syllable wasn't reduced completely to a schwa.

Come to think of it, I can't remember when I last heard anyone say the
word at all!  I don't use the word anymore for a housecoat, and rarely
use 'housecoat'.  Now it's just 'bathrobe'.  And I've never owned a
dressing gown.

Victoria

Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 18:54:24 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:54:24 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:21:58 -0400, Laurence Horn 
wrote:

>At 2:22 AM -0400 6/20/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>Ludacris might be referencing an earlier rap song -- Big Daddy Kane's
>>"Young Gifted and Black" (not to be confused with Nina Simone's
>>similarly titled song) from his 1989 album _It's A Big Daddy Thing_.
>
>Or with Lorraine ("Raisin in the Sun") Hansberry's 1969 posthumous
>collection of almost the same name (_To Be Young, Gifted and Black_;
>Hansberry herself never made it even to middle age, succumbing to
>cancer).   I'm assuming her book predated Nina Simone's song (both of
>them preceding Aretha's cover by a couple of years), but I don't know
>for sure.  (There's also a web site attributing the phrase to Elton
>John, but I suspect that isn't quite right.)

-----
http://www.chipublib.org/003cpl/oboc/raisin/biography.html
The title is taken from a speech given by Hansberry in May 1964 to winners
of a United Negro Fund writing competition:
"....though it be thrilling and marvelous thing to be merely young and
gifted in such times, it is doubly so, doubly dynamic, to be young, gifted
and black!"
-----
http://www.nathanielturner.com/weldonirvine.htm
As [songwriter Weldon] Irvine tells it, Simone was friends with the
playwright Lorraine Hansberry, who wrote A Raisin In the Sun. When
Hansberry's autobiography was turned into a Broadway play, Simone attended
the premier of the production, which was titled To Be Young, Gifted, and
Black, and was inspired to write a song. She asked Irvine to write the
lyrics. She gave him the title, played the song's melody, and told Irvine
she wanted lyrics that "will make black children all over the world feel
good about themselves forever."
-----

(I'm partial to the 1970 cover version by the reggae duo Bob & Marcia.)

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 18:56:57 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:56:57 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f1jlb6@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

For a more realistic view of the attitude of Black America toward pork,
I offer the following:

McCrary's Pork House: the largest and most successful black-owned
restaurant in the St. Louis of my youth

"I gots to have my swine": A cab driver explaining to Ebony magazine
why he refuses to join the NOI, though he believes in it

"You can't cold-turkey pork": Redd Foxx making the same point re the NOI

"I know better than to come between niggers and their pork": Dave
Chappelle (who else?)

-Wilson Gray

>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 19:07:20 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:07:20 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use (was: "opening the kimono" (1979?,
 1984))
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:56:38 -0600, Victoria Neufeldt
 wrote:

>On Monday, June 20, 2005 5:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
>> pronunciation, isn't it?
>>
>> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>
>Well, M-W's 11th Collegiate and New Oxford American have a "long-o"
>final syllable for the first pronun listed, with the schwa pron as the
>single alternate; American Heritage 4th and Webster's New World 4th
>list the schwa pron first, with the long o as an alternate pron of
>almost equal currency (i.e., in case anyone isn't clear on this, the
>two prons are separated by a comma, which is usual lexicographic style
>for "equal currency or slightly less common"; if the variant is
>significantly less common, it's normally preceded by "also" or
>"sometimes" or a regional label, etc.).  I can't access my Kenyon &
>Knott right now.  Also, in my pron and presumably Beverly's, the final
>syllable wasn't reduced completely to a schwa.
>
>Come to think of it, I can't remember when I last heard anyone say the
>word at all!  I don't use the word anymore for a housecoat, and rarely
>use 'housecoat'.  Now it's just 'bathrobe'.  And I've never owned a
>dressing gown.

This must be a generational thing, in terms of both pronunciation and use.
I'd wager that few AmE speakers who came of age in the '70s or later are
familiar with either the 'housecoat' sense or the /k at mon@/ pronunciation
(except perhaps from their parents).  My earliest "kimono" memories are
fixed around the 1980 miniseries _Shogun_, where it was /k at mono/.

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 19:13:40 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:13:40 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f218ac@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
> pronunciation, isn't it?
>
> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>
> JL
>

I got your back, Jon (accompanied by imaginary reciprocal giving of
skin).

-Wilson

> Victoria Neufeldt  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>
>> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
>> pronunciation, as
>> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
>> ways, to the '20s
>> or '30s, I'd guess.
>
> Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?
>
> Vicki
>
>>
>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
>> something like
>>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
>> last vowel
>>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
>> the word as a
>>> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
>>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
>> henceforth felt
>>> self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
>> the name in
>>> relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
>> reference was to a
>>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>>>
>>> Victoria
>>>
>>> Victoria Neufeldt
>>> 727 9th Street East
>>> Saskatoon, Sask.
>>> S7H 0M6
>>> Canada
>>> Tel: 306-955-8910
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
>>>> Japanese reference
>>>> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
>>>> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
>>>> some people still
>>>> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
>>>> thought knew that
>>>> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
>>>> lounging around in
>>>> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
>> Japan (as an
>>>> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
>>>> India when they
>>>> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
>>>> non-ethnic sense
>>>> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
>>>> from before WW
>>>> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
>>>> think, although
>>>> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>>>>
>>>> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
>>>> peculiar since I
>>>> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
>>>> rather than "open
>>>> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
>>>> others): (1) "open
>>>> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
>>>> meaning "expose
>>>> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
>>>> word-for-word
>>>> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
>>>> meaning (with
>>>> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
>>>> same Japanese
>>>> expression might have been translated again independently
>>>> for the modern
>>>> metaphor).
>>>>
>>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>
>>> ---
>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>
>> ---
>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 19:19:35 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:19:35 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f254a1@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 8:18 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Grant Barrett 
> Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Another term for it is "flavor saver," presumably due to the food
> that gets caught in it. There's a 1986 hit on Google Groups where the
> term refers to a beard and mustache together.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.singles/msg/ba9c977e8b17d14c
>
> The next hit there where it specifically refers to the tuft of hair
> beneath the lower lip (which is what I know it as)

Amen to that. I've never heard anybody refer to it by any name.

-Wilson Gray

>  is 1996.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.gdead/msg/
> 722ff50238401211
>
> Grant Barrett
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Jun 20 19:23:06 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:23:06 -0400
Subject: Soul Patch
In-Reply-To: <45390.69.142.143.59.1119292564.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

Jeff Sharlet evidently distinguishes soul-patches & goatees:
"The  worship band, dressed in black, goateed or soul-patched or
shag-headed, lay flat on their backs....." from "Soldiers of Christ,"
/Harper's/ May 2005.
A. Murie

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 19:32:13 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:32:13 -0400
Subject: The "soul patch"
In-Reply-To: <42ut2e$3gabpq@mx21.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 9:26 AM, Bill Lemay wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Bill Lemay 
> Subject:      Re: The "soul patch"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I've always known it as an "imperial".
>

Doesn't the imperial reach below the chin? What I have - and know no
real name for - is a mere tuft of whiskers  covering an area about the
size of a thumbnail below my lower lip,

-Wilson Gray

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Jun 20 19:41:48 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:41:48 -0400
Subject: Soul Patch
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:23:06 -0400, sagehen  wrote:

>Jeff Sharlet evidently distinguishes soul-patches & goatees:
>"The  worship band, dressed in black, goateed or soul-patched or
>shag-headed, lay flat on their backs....." from "Soldiers of Christ,"
>/Harper's/ May 2005.

As it should be.  I'm surprised that so many references to Dizzy
Gillespie, Archie Moore, Frank Zappa, et al. use the term "goatee", since
I thought the defining feature of the goatee is its chin coverage.

An alt.music.frank-zappa thread in '93/'94 came up with these names:

imperial
Genghis
jazz beard
soul patch
soul tab
stinger
Mephisto beard
Zappa

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_frm/thread/017f1ae5bb4a3ad5/

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 19:42:01 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:42:01 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f30fse@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> What! Long-o and open-o are not preserved before /r/ in Alabama! I
> don't eat no barbecue made by no vowel conflaters.
>
> dInIs (who knows his horse from his sore throat)

Good eye, dInIs! I missed that one.

-Wilson

>
>> There's a barbecue restaurant here in Huntsville that has the slogan:
>> "Too much pork for just one fork".
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 432-3791
> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 19:58:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:58:31 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f30rbq@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at Redstone
Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's referred to the locals as
"doo-wahs," because of a feature of the local dialect. Instead of
saying, "huh? or "what?" or even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_
what?"

Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is still used
in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say where, since the
"guests" don't always mention their home states or hometowns. To my
ear, "do what?" has the same intonation pattern as "say what?"

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 20, 2005, at 2:02 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> You can't really use Huntsville as a guide for Alabama or southern
> speech.  Remember, this is the city where, when Wernher von Braun was
> speaking to a bunch of aerospace executives during the Apollo program
> in
> the 1960's (he had arrived just before the boom -- he caused the boom
> --
> in 1950), "You can tell us Huntsville old-timers by our southern
> accents" (spoken with a very correct Prussian accent . . .)
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:59 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" 
>> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------------
>>
>> What! Long-o and open-o are not preserved before /r/ in
>> Alabama! I don't eat no barbecue made by no vowel conflaters.
>>
>> dInIs (who knows his horse from his sore throat)
>>
>>> There's a barbecue restaurant here in Huntsville that has the slogan:
>>> "Too much pork for just one fork".
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor
>> Department of English
>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>> Office: (517) 432-3791
>> Fax: (517) 453-3755
>>
>

From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Mon Jun 20 20:19:08 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:19:08 -0500
Subject: Coke and their by-products?
Message-ID: 

 From http://www.popvssoda.com/stats/AL.html

> I grew up in the south, but my parents grew up in the north. I
> usually say coke cause i simply prefer coke (and their by-products)
> over pepsi. i do however say pop once inawhile just to confuse my
> southern friends. If i go to a restaurant and ask for a coke and they
> say *we only have pepsi* then i just have water instead. i want a
> coke. nothin else.

Rachel

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Jun 20 20:19:44 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:44 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f31c46@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 2:09 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Victoria Neufeldt  quoth:
>>>>>
> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced something like
> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the last vowel
> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'.  I knew the word as a
> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print.  When I
> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and henceforth felt
> self-conscious about saying it.
> <<<<
>
> I've seen it written "kimona", I *think* as 'housecoat'; not in the
> context
> of "open the...". But of course a person learning it as 'housecoat'
> could
> easily have carried the pron. & spelling back to the Japanese garment
> once
> they learned of it.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>

Mark, I've asked you and I've asked you not to read my personal
correspondence! ;-)

-Wilson

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 20 20:45:38 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:45:38 -0500
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>
> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
> intonation pattern as "say what?"
>
> -Wilson Gray

I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
Tennessee).

And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis onthe

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 21:23:42 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:23:42 -0700
Subject: bubble gum
Message-ID: 

"The Archies" did not evolve from the primeval yuck until '68 or so.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: bubble gum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> HDAS has a 1963 cite for "bubble gum music".
>
Pulled from Jonathan's own stack of Archies 45's, no doubt.

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From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Jun 20 21:34:57 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:34:57 -0400
Subject: Wikipedia [Was: recent francophobic slur]
Message-ID: 

        I've been surprised at how often Wikipedia articles are
demonstrably superior to articles on the same subject in Britannica and
Encarta.  This does not apply just to popular culture topics, where you
would expect more thorough coverage in Wikipedia.  The key seems to be
the selection of a topic that attracts input from knowledgeable editors.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Sam Clements
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:07 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: recent francophobic slur

From: "Fred Shapiro" 

> Wikipedia has a great little article on "Cheese-eating surrender
monkeys."
> This is actually, in my view, an outstanding example of Wikipedia at
> its best, writing authoritatively about something that no traditional
> encyclopedia would ever think of having an article about.

One of very few, in my opinion.  Wikipedia still receives my scorn.
They post articles which the average person take as gospel, even though
they're contributed by well-meaning people who aren't necessarily
scholars.  The scholarship is very deficient in my experience.

Instantly available mis-information is worse than slow moving correct
information.

Sam Clements

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 21:37:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:37:17 -0700
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Right back at you, poppa-stoppa !  If I'm lyin', I'm dyin' !!

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 20, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
> pronunciation, isn't it?
>
> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>
> JL
>

I got your back, Jon (accompanied by imaginary reciprocal giving of
skin).

-Wilson

> Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>
>> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
>> pronunciation, as
>> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
>> ways, to the '20s
>> or '30s, I'd guess.
>
> Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?
>
> Vicki
>
>>
>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
>> something like
>>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
>> last vowel
>>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
>> the word as a
>>> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
>>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
>> henceforth felt
>>> self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
>> the name in
>>> relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
>> reference was to a
>>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>>>
>>> Victoria
>>>
>>> Victoria Neufeldt
>>> 727 9th Street East
>>> Saskatoon, Sask.
>>> S7H 0M6
>>> Canada
>>> Tel: 306-955-8910
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
>>>> Japanese reference
>>>> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
>>>> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
>>>> some people still
>>>> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
>>>> thought knew that
>>>> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
>>>> lounging around in
>>>> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
>> Japan (as an
>>>> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
>>>> India when they
>>>> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
>>>> non-ethnic sense
>>>> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
>>>> from before WW
>>>> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
>>>> think, although
>>>> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>>>>
>>>> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
>>>> peculiar since I
>>>> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
>>>> rather than "open
>>>> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
>>>> others): (1) "open
>>>> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
>>>> meaning "expose
>>>> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
>>>> word-for-word
>>>> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
>>>> meaning (with
>>>> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
>>>> same Japanese
>>>> expression might have been translated again independently
>>>> for the modern
>>>> metaphor).
>>>>
>>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>
>>> ---
>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>
>> ---
>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 21:40:33 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:40:33 -0700
Subject: The "soul patch"
Message-ID: 

Wilson Gray  wrote:---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: The "soul patch"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 20, 2005, at 8:18 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Grant Barrett
> Subject: Re: The "soul patch"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Another term for it is "flavor saver," presumably due to the food
> that gets caught in it. There's a 1986 hit on Google Groups where the
> term refers to a beard and mustache together.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.singles/msg/ba9c977e8b17d14c
>
> The next hit there where it specifically refers to the tuft of hair
> beneath the lower lip (which is what I know it as)

Amen to that. I've never heard anybody refer to it by any name.

-Wilson Gray

> is 1996.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.music.gdead/msg/
> 722ff50238401211
>
> Grant Barrett
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>

---------------------------------
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From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Jun 20 21:43:31 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:43:31 +0100
Subject: "Happy as a puppy with two peters"
In-Reply-To: <200506201753.j5KHreZc020786@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: 

on 20/6/05 6:53 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "Happy as a puppy with two peters"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> If this isn't a fake, it's amazing that the little guy has survived.  Most
> such extreme mutations die very quickly.
>
> Among the phrases that got my attention in Tennessee thirty years ago were
> "horny as a three-peckered billygoat" and "...as a three-balled tomcat."
>
> JL
>

How about a ten-peckered billy-goat?

'John was beside himself with lust now. Little sister or not, she obviously
wanted it, and he desperately needed a fuck, otherwise he was gonna be horny
as a ten-peckered billy-goat all day long.'
--Eros, 'Family Fun, alt.sex.stories. 17 september 1996

Presumably you're already aware of 'horny as a three-peckered gopher'
(Timothy Curry, One-Liners as a Folklore Genre, 'Keystone Folk Quarterly,
XV, mp.2, Summer 1970, 89, 5)

--Neil Crawford (off now to the Aldburgh festival -- Benjamin Britten
country -- for a couple of days)

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 21:45:43 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:45:43 -0700
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

I've started to say it too in recent years. Don't know when. Don't know why.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>
> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
> intonation pattern as "say what?"
>
> -Wilson Gray

I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
Tennessee).

And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis onthe

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jun 20 22:00:12 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:00:12 -0700
Subject: Wikipedia [Was: recent francophobic slur]
Message-ID: 

Wiki is less an encyclopedia than a continuing gabfest among enthusiasts. As such, it's most useful for getting leads to be checked out, but many surfers undoubtedly take its articles as gospel.  The articles I've looked at are better than abysmal, but not always well balanced or especially trustworthy.  Perhaps the more interest and controversy surrounding a topic, the less reliable the article.

JL

"Baker, John"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Wikipedia [Was: recent francophobic slur]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been surprised at how often Wikipedia articles are
demonstrably superior to articles on the same subject in Britannica and
Encarta. This does not apply just to popular culture topics, where you
would expect more thorough coverage in Wikipedia. The key seems to be
the selection of a topic that attracts input from knowledgeable editors.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Sam Clements
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:07 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: recent francophobic slur

From: "Fred Shapiro"

> Wikipedia has a great little article on "Cheese-eating surrender
monkeys."
> This is actually, in my view, an outstanding example of Wikipedia at
> its best, writing authoritatively about something that no traditional
> encyclopedia would ever think of having an article about.

One of very few, in my opinion. Wikipedia still receives my scorn.
They post articles which the average person take as gospel, even though
they're contributed by well-meaning people who aren't necessarily
scholars. The scholarship is very deficient in my experience.

Instantly available mis-information is worse than slow moving correct
information.

Sam Clements

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 05:45:09 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:45:09 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42ut2e$3hg8bq@mx21.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Right back at you, poppa-stoppa !

Do what?! When I was a little kid, ca.1940, in Texas, I used to hear my
mother and her friends use "poppa-stoppa." They had no idea of the
origin of the term, of course. Next thing I know, someone will be
saying, "okey-doke(y)"! At one time, that was so popular that there was
a comic strip named "Sir Oakey Doakes." It parodied the days of knights
and featured the catch phrase, "Odds bodkin!"

-Wilson

>   If I'm lyin', I'm dyin' !!
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 20, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
>> pronunciation, isn't it?
>>
>> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>>
>> JL
>>
>
> I got your back, Jon (accompanied by imaginary reciprocal giving of
> skin).
>
> -Wilson
>
>> Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>
>>> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
>>> pronunciation, as
>>> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
>>> ways, to the '20s
>>> or '30s, I'd guess.
>>
>> Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?
>>
>> Vicki
>>
>>>
>>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>>>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
>>> something like
>>>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
>>> last vowel
>>>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
>>> the word as a
>>>> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
>>>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
>>> henceforth felt
>>>> self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>>>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
>>> the name in
>>>> relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
>>> reference was to a
>>>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>>>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>>>>
>>>> Victoria
>>>>
>>>> Victoria Neufeldt
>>>> 727 9th Street East
>>>> Saskatoon, Sask.
>>>> S7H 0M6
>>>> Canada
>>>> Tel: 306-955-8910
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
>>>>> Japanese reference
>>>>> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
>>>>> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
>>>>> some people still
>>>>> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
>>>>> thought knew that
>>>>> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
>>>>> lounging around in
>>>>> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
>>> Japan (as an
>>>>> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
>>>>> India when they
>>>>> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
>>>>> non-ethnic sense
>>>>> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
>>>>> from before WW
>>>>> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
>>>>> think, although
>>>>> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>>>>>
>>>>> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
>>>>> peculiar since I
>>>>> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
>>>>> rather than "open
>>>>> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
>>>>> others): (1) "open
>>>>> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
>>>>> meaning "expose
>>>>> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
>>>>> word-for-word
>>>>> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
>>>>> meaning (with
>>>>> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
>>>>> same Japanese
>>>>> expression might have been translated again independently
>>>>> for the modern
>>>>> metaphor).
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>
>> ---
>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 05:51:19 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:51:19 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f3cgah@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>
>> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>> intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
> Tennessee).
>
> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
> the initial syllable)
>

Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)

-Wilson

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 21 06:40:38 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:40:38 EDT
Subject: Pig Out (1977)
Message-ID: 

If you put pork on your fork, you might want to "pig out." Revised OED,  what 
say you?
...
...
(OED)

ADDITIONS SERIES 1993  
pig, v.  
Add:    4. intr. to pig  out, to over-indulge or ?make a  pig of oneself? by 
over-eating. Also const. on (the food specified) and  transf. slang (orig. 
and chiefly N. Amer.).  

1978 _T.  GIFFORD_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-g.html#t-gifford) 
 Glendower Legacy (1979) 73 I'm just going to pig out at home. 1981 J. FONDA  
Workout Bk. (1982) 29 Troy and  Vanessa..pig  out for days on leftover 
Halloween candy. 1986  Courier-Mail (Brisbane) 11 Oct. (Weekend  Suppl.) 9/2 Laura 
pigs out on junk food and watches late night  movies. 1987 Observer 15 Nov. 
10/2 You may  not want to ?pig  out?, as the brochure pleasantly puts it, on 
movies and junk food for  two days. 1987 Time 11 May 29/1 To prevent  Americans 
from pigging out on between-meal snacks, herewith some..tips.
... 
... 
_The  Picnic: Everything But the Ants_ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=368&did=135449872&SrchMode=1&sid=8&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HN
P&TS=1119335451&clientId=65882) 
BY CAROL CONN.  The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,  D.C.: 
Mar 31, 1978. p. W5 (1 page) : 
If you really want to pig out, the Old World Market next door will  
collaborate with the Wharf to put together a veritable graing  (??-ed.) board of meats, 
cheese and wine to go with that seafood  sandwich. 
... 
... 
_Daily Times_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2n3banenkzycBVDnEINMy4GmsbVNob/9VEIF+CsZYmrz)  _Saturday, April 09, 
1977_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=)  _Salisbury,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="pig+out"+AND+cityid:25627+AND+stat
eid:49+AND+range:1964-1978)   _Maryland_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search="pig+out"+AND+stateid:49+AND+range:1964-1978)   ...I've just  
lost a few poun- ds. I'll PIG OUT at Christmas. You'll see."  But..

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 21 06:40:14 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:40:14 -0500
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

>>
>> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>> the initial syllable)
>>
>
>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>
>-Wilson

"Japan" doesn't seem to throw folks around here.  However, there is a town 20 miles
south of Huntsville called "Arab" --- pronounced "AYE-rab".  

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 11:03:58 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:03:58 -0400
Subject: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <200506202137.j5KLbJBw015473@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

I assume that the expression "as if" did not originate in the 1995 film
Clueless.  Any opinions as to whether that film popularized the
expression?  Does anyone have any early citations for it?

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 21 11:36:36 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:36:36 -0400
Subject: "As If"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 07:03:58AM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> I assume that the expression "as if" did not originate in the 1995 film
> Clueless.  Any opinions as to whether that film popularized the
> expression?  Does anyone have any early citations for it?

The OED's entry for this has three pre-_Clueless_ cites, from Frank
Norris in 1902, from one of Connie Eble's slang collections in 1981,
and from the 1991 shooting script for the _Wayne's World_ movie.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:06:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:06:17 -0700
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Google can direct you to over 100,000 current sites that are proud users of the word "okey-dokey."

"Poppa-stoppa" doesn't come close, but there was a series of beloved New Orleans DJs in the '60s who went by that name. The word was in print by '46.

Keep buzzin', cousin.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Right back at you, poppa-stoppa !

Do what?! When I was a little kid, ca.1940, in Texas, I used to hear my
mother and her friends use "poppa-stoppa." They had no idea of the
origin of the term, of course. Next thing I know, someone will be
saying, "okey-doke(y)"! At one time, that was so popular that there was
a comic strip named "Sir Oakey Doakes." It parodied the days of knights
and featured the catch phrase, "Odds bodkin!"

-Wilson

> If I'm lyin', I'm dyin' !!
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 20, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
>> pronunciation, isn't it?
>>
>> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>>
>> JL
>>
>
> I got your back, Jon (accompanied by imaginary reciprocal giving of
> skin).
>
> -Wilson
>
>> Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>
>>> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
>>> pronunciation, as
>>> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
>>> ways, to the '20s
>>> or '30s, I'd guess.
>>
>> Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?
>>
>> Vicki
>>
>>>
>>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>>>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
>>> something like
>>>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
>>> last vowel
>>>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
>>> the word as a
>>>> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
>>>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
>>> henceforth felt
>>>> self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>>>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
>>> the name in
>>>> relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
>>> reference was to a
>>>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>>>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>>>>
>>>> Victoria
>>>>
>>>> Victoria Neufeldt
>>>> 727 9th Street East
>>>> Saskatoon, Sask.
>>>> S7H 0M6
>>>> Canada
>>>> Tel: 306-955-8910
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
>>>>> Japanese reference
>>>>> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
>>>>> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
>>>>> some people still
>>>>> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
>>>>> thought knew that
>>>>> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
>>>>> lounging around in
>>>>> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
>>> Japan (as an
>>>>> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
>>>>> India when they
>>>>> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
>>>>> non-ethnic sense
>>>>> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
>>>>> from before WW
>>>>> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
>>>>> think, although
>>>>> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>>>>>
>>>>> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
>>>>> peculiar since I
>>>>> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
>>>>> rather than "open
>>>>> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
>>>>> others): (1) "open
>>>>> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
>>>>> meaning "expose
>>>>> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
>>>>> word-for-word
>>>>> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
>>>>> meaning (with
>>>>> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
>>>>> same Japanese
>>>>> expression might have been translated again independently
>>>>> for the modern
>>>>> metaphor).
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>>>
>>> ---
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>>>
>> ---
>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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>>
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:10:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:10:52 -0700
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama.  He said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>
>> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>> intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
> Tennessee).
>
> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
> the initial syllable)
>

Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)

-Wilson

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:13:37 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:13:37 -0700
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

Oh, man, Bill beat me to it.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>
>> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>> the initial syllable)
>>
>
>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>
>-Wilson

"Japan" doesn't seem to throw folks around here. However, there is a =
town 20 miles
south of Huntsville called "Arab" --- pronounced "AYE-rab". =20

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From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:22:42 2005
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:22:42 -0400
Subject: "gay vague"
In-Reply-To: <20050621121337.23917.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

I'm nominating "gay vague" for something next January, not sure what.
Probably most unnecessary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/fashion/sundaystyles/19GAYDAR.html

The weird thing about reading this article is that almost all of the
quotations sound stilted, like the reporter asked the people to use "gay
vague" in a sentence. I find it odd that that many people would
spontaneously produce this phrase to describe this "phenomenon".

(It's not new to 2005, per
http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?mode=4 it
appears to have been coined in 1997. But unless it dies a quick death, it
will be newly prominent this year thanks to the NYT exposure.)

I find it odd for something coined in 1997 that has only about 800 google
hits being featured in an article where people are dropping the term into
their quotations left and right, as though it were a phrase on everyone's
tongues. (I have never heard it uttered out loud, myself. Maybe Boston's
just too parochial.)

It's also not that productive: "gay vagueness" gets 19 hits.

New Yorkers: is this phrase bandied about on the streets the way this
article would have us believe?

-- Steve K

From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:37:57 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (janis nihart)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:37:57 -0500
Subject: As if
Message-ID: 

My friends and I in the 1950's and sixties regularly used the term AS IF
. I always thought it was a local(southeastern Louisiana) expression.
When it came out in the 1990's I wondered if  it may have come from  a
movie in the fifties or before.  An example of how we used it would be :
Janis asked, "Did you finish your homework?"
Bonnie replied, "As if."
In other words it meant "No way!"
She also could have answered "As if I'm finished!

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 21 12:42:41 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:42:41 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <20050621121052.89870.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...

dInIs

>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama.  He
>said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>
>JL
>
>Wilson Gray  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Wilson Gray
>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
>>  Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  --------
>>
>>>  During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>>>  Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>>>  referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>>>  the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>>>  even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>>
>>>  Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>>>  still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>>>  where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>>>  states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>>>  intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>>
>>>  -Wilson Gray
>>
>>  I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
>>  Tennessee).
>>
>>  And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>>  the initial syllable)
>>
>
>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:45:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:45:14 -0700
Subject: potato slur
Message-ID: 

BREAKING NEWS  FROM FOX

In London today, potato farmers marched on Parliament to demand that the term "couch potato" be removed from the prestigious _Oxford English Dictionary_.

The protesting farmers claim that the term demeans the potato and is offensive.

They demand it be stricken from the language and replaced with the term "couch slouch."

Source: _Fox & Friends_, 3 minutes ago.

We report, you deride.

JL

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:49:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:49:46 -0700
Subject: "gay vague"
Message-ID: 

Slow news day.

JL

"Steve Kl."  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Steve Kl."
Subject: "gay vague"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm nominating "gay vague" for something next January, not sure what.
Probably most unnecessary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/fashion/sundaystyles/19GAYDAR.html

The weird thing about reading this article is that almost all of the
quotations sound stilted, like the reporter asked the people to use "gay
vague" in a sentence. I find it odd that that many people would
spontaneously produce this phrase to describe this "phenomenon".

(It's not new to 2005, per
http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?mode=4 it
appears to have been coined in 1997. But unless it dies a quick death, it
will be newly prominent this year thanks to the NYT exposure.)

I find it odd for something coined in 1997 that has only about 800 google
hits being featured in an article where people are dropping the term into
their quotations left and right, as though it were a phrase on everyone's
tongues. (I have never heard it uttered out loud, myself. Maybe Boston's
just too parochial.)

It's also not that productive: "gay vagueness" gets 19 hits.

New Yorkers: is this phrase bandied about on the streets the way this
article would have us believe?

-- Steve K

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 12:51:07 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:51:07 -0700
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

Narbonne...

JL

"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...

dInIs

>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He
>said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>
>JL
>
>Wilson Gray wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Wilson Gray
>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
>> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>>> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>>> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>>> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>>> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>>> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>>
>>> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>>> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>>> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>>> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>>> intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>> I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
>> Tennessee).
>>
>> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>> the initial syllable)
>>
>
>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 13:03:19 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:03:19 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f56ui4@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Don't forget Hayti, Missouri, pronounced "HAY tie," not to mention that
Madrid, Missouri is pronounced [MAE drId].

-Wilson

On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Narbonne...
>
> JL
>
> "Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>
> dInIs
>
>> I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He
>> said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
>>> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>>> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>>>> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>>>> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>>>> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>>>> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>>>> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>>>> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>>>> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>>>> intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>>>
>>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>> I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
>>> Tennessee).
>>>
>>> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>>> the initial syllable)
>>>
>>
>> Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>> that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
> Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 21 13:33:44 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:33:44 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>
>dInIs
~<~<~<~<~
.... BeATrice, BERlin, MoIRa (/mo EYE r@/), Calais........
A. Murie

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 13:35:22 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:35:22 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42k64s$3vlc2o@mx22.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

DJ's used it?! This may be crying Wol(o)f, but I've long been under the
impression that "poppa-stoppa" was a kind of punning pseudo-euphemism
for "mutha-fukka," inspired by a traditional joke - told and re-told by
generations of little boys, each passing it along under the impression
that they are the first to have heard it - whose punch line is, "That
woddn no 'whoppa!' That was my asshole-stoppa!"

WRT "okey-dokey," I do recall that Richard Pryor used it in his "Black
Ben the blacksmith" bit in the 'Seventies.

-Wilson

On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Google can direct you to over 100,000 current sites that are proud
> users of the word "okey-dokey."
>
> "Poppa-stoppa" doesn't come close, but there was a series of beloved
> New Orleans DJs in the '60s who went by that name. The word was in
> print by '46.
>
> Keep buzzin', cousin.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Right back at you, poppa-stoppa !
>
> Do what?! When I was a little kid, ca.1940, in Texas, I used to hear my
> mother and her friends use "poppa-stoppa." They had no idea of the
> origin of the term, of course. Next thing I know, someone will be
> saying, "okey-doke(y)"! At one time, that was so popular that there was
> a comic strip named "Sir Oakey Doakes." It parodied the days of knights
> and featured the catch phrase, "Odds bodkin!"
>
> -Wilson
>
>> If I'm lyin', I'm dyin' !!
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
>>> pronunciation, isn't it?
>>>
>>> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>
>> I got your back, Jon (accompanied by imaginary reciprocal giving of
>> skin).
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>> Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
>>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
>>>> pronunciation, as
>>>> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
>>>> ways, to the '20s
>>>> or '30s, I'd guess.
>>>
>>> Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?
>>>
>>> Vicki
>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>>>>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
>>>> something like
>>>>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
>>>> last vowel
>>>>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
>>>> the word as a
>>>>> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
>>>>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
>>>> henceforth felt
>>>>> self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>>>>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
>>>> the name in
>>>>> relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
>>>> reference was to a
>>>>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>>>>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Victoria
>>>>>
>>>>> Victoria Neufeldt
>>>>> 727 9th Street East
>>>>> Saskatoon, Sask.
>>>>> S7H 0M6
>>>>> Canada
>>>>> Tel: 306-955-8910
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
>>>>>> Japanese reference
>>>>>> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
>>>>>> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
>>>>>> some people still
>>>>>> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
>>>>>> thought knew that
>>>>>> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
>>>>>> lounging around in
>>>>>> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
>>>> Japan (as an
>>>>>> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
>>>>>> India when they
>>>>>> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
>>>>>> non-ethnic sense
>>>>>> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
>>>>>> from before WW
>>>>>> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
>>>>>> think, although
>>>>>> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
>>>>>> peculiar since I
>>>>>> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
>>>>>> rather than "open
>>>>>> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
>>>>>> others): (1) "open
>>>>>> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
>>>>>> meaning "expose
>>>>>> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
>>>>>> word-for-word
>>>>>> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
>>>>>> meaning (with
>>>>>> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
>>>>>> same Japanese
>>>>>> expression might have been translated again independently
>>>>>> for the modern
>>>>>> metaphor).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>
>>> ---
>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
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>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 21 13:38:17 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:38:17 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <20050621125107.75516.qmail@web53911.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

The best, of course, particularly with the new spelling. Always my
favorite over "Picketwire."

dInIs

>Narbonne...
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>
>dInIs
>
>>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He
>>said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Wilson Gray wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  -----------------------
>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
>>>  Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  --------
>>>
>>>>  During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>>>>  Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>>>>  referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>>>>  the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>>>>  even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>>>>  still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>>>>  where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>>>>  states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>>>>  intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>>>
>>>>  -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>>  I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
>>>  Tennessee).
>>>
>>>  And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>>>  the initial syllable)
>>>
>>
>>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 21 13:39:24 2005
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:39:24 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <2866623b40d5db8f4dc521834ea53a90@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Wilson Gray wrote:

> Don't forget Hayti, Missouri, pronounced "HAY tie," not to mention that
> Madrid, Missouri is pronounced [MAE drId].

I've mentioned this before, but my favorite is still Pompeii "POM-pee-eye"
Michigan.

From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Tue Jun 21 13:40:50 2005
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:40:50 +0200
Subject: "gay vague"
Message-ID: 

Is that vague as in 'nouvelle vague'?
M.I.Amorelli
EAP, Faculties of Economics and Law,
Sassari
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: "gay vague"

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Steve Kl." 
> Subject:      "gay vague"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm nominating "gay vague" for something next January, not sure what.
> Probably most unnecessary.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/fashion/sundaystyles/19GAYDAR.html
>
> The weird thing about reading this article is that almost all of the
> quotations sound stilted, like the reporter asked the people to use "gay
> vague" in a sentence. I find it odd that that many people would
> spontaneously produce this phrase to describe this "phenomenon".
>
> (It's not new to 2005, per
> http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?mode=4 it
> appears to have been coined in 1997. But unless it dies a quick death, it
> will be newly prominent this year thanks to the NYT exposure.)
>
> I find it odd for something coined in 1997 that has only about 800 google
> hits being featured in an article where people are dropping the term into
> their quotations left and right, as though it were a phrase on everyone's
> tongues. (I have never heard it uttered out loud, myself. Maybe Boston's
> just too parochial.)
>
> It's also not that productive: "gay vagueness" gets 19 hits.
>
> New Yorkers: is this phrase bandied about on the streets the way this
> article would have us believe?
>
> -- Steve K
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005
>
>

From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Tue Jun 21 13:43:58 2005
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:43:58 +0200
Subject: bogeying=boogying
Message-ID: 

I'm sorry but the only 'bogey' I'm familiar with...:))..is those little hard
balls of snot that unpleasant kids in class used to squish under the surface
of the desk tops for all-comers to find. Mind you, this is Brit.E. circa
1970s.
M.I.Amorelli
EAP, Faculties of Economics and Law,
Sassari
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael McKernan" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 7:30 AM
Subject: bogeying=boogying

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Michael McKernan 
> Subject:      bogeying=boogying
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Found this 'bogey' today while googling something else:
>
>>Report from the Florida Fiery Foods Show
>>After an oyster dinner, I started bogeying on the dance floor with my
>>niece Emily
>>DeWitt, then with Mary Jane. No one there had ever seen me dance, ...
>>www.fiery-foods.com/zine-industry/flashow.html - 12k - Cached - Similar
>>pages
>
> Google hits:    boogying 18,600
>                boogieing 7,490
>
> While there are nearly 14,000 google hits for 'bogeying', all that I saw
> (a
> very brief glance) pertain to golf 'bogeys,' rather than the
> 'boogie'-derived usage here, but at least some other boogie/bogeys  turn
> up:
>
>>Midnight menu at Right Place
>>Today, Chennai conjures images of BPOs, discoth?ques and party animals
>>bogeying
>>into the wee hours of the night. The city, indeed, never sleeps! ...
>>www.chennaionline.com/hotelsandtours/ Restaurants/2005/03rightplace.asp -
>>67k - Jun 17, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>Discover Native America 2001
>>... just inches from the drummers, slamming, thrashing, striking the heat
>>taut
>>hides, the drums, suspended on wooden pegs, undulating, bogeying,
>>shimmying. ...
>>www.cgcas.org/dna.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>Jazz | JazzTimes Magazine > Reviews > Concert Reviews
>>Jumping, twirling, dropping to their knees and just plain bogeying, the
>>group
>>worked up a sweat that of course led to their abandoning their fancy
>>pinstripe ...
>>www.jazztimes.com/reviews/ concert_reviews/detail.cfm?article=10318 - 32k
>>- Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>The Blues Audience newsletter
>>Sugar Ray & The Bluetones got the crowd out on the floor, dancing, and
>>kept them
>>bogeying all night long. With "Monster" Mike Welch on guitar, ...
>>www.bluesaudience.com/sugarray.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>DwightOzard.com | Lover's Quarrel Article: Dance, White Boy, Dance ...
>>Call it what you want-"getting down," "bogeying," "tripping Dick Clark and
>>the
>>light-fantastic," whatever-but when James Brown comes on, there is only
>>one ...
>>www.dwightozard.com/lq-article.asp?id=78 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>USCG Auxiliary 1SR
>>Bogeying on the tarmac.Tom Negri, FC 13-06 starting the twist contest, A
>>closer
>>view of the castle which captured the hearts of the kids. ...
>>www.cgaux1sr.org/photo/d13Blessing/div13Blessing.htm - 11k - Cached -
>>Similar pages
>
> Etc.
>
> Not sure if this qualifies for eggcorn status.
>
> Michael McKernan
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005
>
>

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 21 14:06:24 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:06:24 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

        And don't forget Monticello.  Unusual place names seem to be a
strength of Kentucky's.

John Baker (who grew up between Weed and Bliss, next to Jaybird Ridge)

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Dennis R. Preston
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:43 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"

Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...

dInIs

>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama.  He said
>it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>
>JL

From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 21 14:21:05 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:21:05 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"gay=20vague"?=
Message-ID: 

It hasn't made it to North Carolina yete, so far as I can tell. Someone is
trying to create a term, I guess.

In a message dated 6/21/05 8:22:47 AM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes:

> I'm nominating "gay vague" for something next January, not sure what.
> Probably most unnecessary.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/fashion/sundaystyles/19GAYDAR.html
>
> The weird thing about reading this article is that almost all of the
> quotations sound stilted, like the reporter asked the people to use "gay
> vague" in a sentence. I find it odd that that many people would
> spontaneously produce this phrase to describe this "phenomenon".
>
> (It's not new to 2005, per
> http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?mode=4 it
> appears to have been coined in 1997. But unless it dies a quick death, it
> will be newly prominent this year thanks to the NYT exposure.)
>
> I find it odd for something coined in 1997 that has only about 800 google
> hits being featured in an article where people are dropping the term into
> their quotations left and right, as though it were a phrase on everyone's
> tongues. (I have never heard it uttered out loud, myself. Maybe Boston's
> just too parochial.)
>
> It's also not that productive: "gay vagueness" gets 19 hits.
>
> New Yorkers: is this phrase bandied about on the streets the way this
> article would have us believe?
>
> -- Steve K
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 14:55:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:55:21 -0700
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

You're probably right about the humorously allusive origin of "poppa-stoppa" (from the M-word) but remember - us white folks usually ain't hip to what's really goin' down.  Bear with us.

In related news, a friend of mine heard "poppa-stoppa" used forty years ago in Arkansas as a jocular word for a condom. Makes sense, but only one or two Usenet hits turn up, appied to any birth-control device.

Hmmm. Now I'm wondering if "condom" mightn't have been the *original* meaning, say in the '30s. Once it was circulating, it would be easy to use it as a jokey form of "motherfucker."

 One never knows.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DJ's used it?! This may be crying Wol(o)f, but I've long been under the
impression that "poppa-stoppa" was a kind of punning pseudo-euphemism
for "mutha-fukka," inspired by a traditional joke - told and re-told by
generations of little boys, each passing it along under the impression
that they are the first to have heard it - whose punch line is, "That
woddn no 'whoppa!' That was my asshole-stoppa!"

WRT "okey-dokey," I do recall that Richard Pryor used it in his "Black
Ben the blacksmith" bit in the 'Seventies.

-Wilson

On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Google can direct you to over 100,000 current sites that are proud
> users of the word "okey-dokey."
>
> "Poppa-stoppa" doesn't come close, but there was a series of beloved
> New Orleans DJs in the '60s who went by that name. The word was in
> print by '46.
>
> Keep buzzin', cousin.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Right back at you, poppa-stoppa !
>
> Do what?! When I was a little kid, ca.1940, in Texas, I used to hear my
> mother and her friends use "poppa-stoppa." They had no idea of the
> origin of the term, of course. Next thing I know, someone will be
> saying, "okey-doke(y)"! At one time, that was so popular that there was
> a comic strip named "Sir Oakey Doakes." It parodied the days of knights
> and featured the catch phrase, "Odds bodkin!"
>
> -Wilson
>
>> If I'm lyin', I'm dyin' !!
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Making allowances for regional phonology, that's the usual
>>> pronunciation, isn't it?
>>>
>>> I've rarely heard anything other than / kI 'mo n@ /.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>
>> I got your back, Jon (accompanied by imaginary reciprocal giving of
>> skin).
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>> Victoria Neufeldt wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Victoria Neufeldt
>>> Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have exactly the same memory, of the robe and the
>>>> pronunciation, as
>>>> Vicki! My Midwestern mother used it, so it goes back a
>>>> ways, to the '20s
>>>> or '30s, I'd guess.
>>>
>>> Wow! You mean my family may have been normal after all?
>>>
>>> Vicki
>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:46 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>>> Doug Wilson made a good point about the use of the term 'kimono'.
>>>>> That's what we used to use for 'housecoat', pronounced
>>>> something like
>>>>> (k@ mo' n@) with "long o" in the stressed syllable and the
>>>> last vowel
>>>>> not really a '@', but almost an 'a' as in 'far'. I knew
>>>> the word as a
>>>>> kid in western Canada, long before I ever saw it in print. When I
>>>>> first saw it, I was very surprised by the spelling and
>>>> henceforth felt
>>>>> self-conscious about saying it. As Doug suggests, as far as I can
>>>>> remember, we did not think of that article of clothing or
>>>> the name in
>>>>> relation to the Japanese robe at all. I think the
>>>> reference was to a
>>>>> woman's/girl's robe, not a man's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Incidentally, I don't recall ever encountering the expression "open
>>>>> the kimono" before reading about it on this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Victoria
>>>>>
>>>>> Victoria Neufeldt
>>>>> 727 9th Street East
>>>>> Saskatoon, Sask.
>>>>> S7H 0M6
>>>>> Canada
>>>>> Tel: 306-955-8910
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:19 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not necessarily obvious IMHO that there was any
>>>>>> Japanese reference
>>>>>> at all in the original metaphor. The word "kimono" was used like
>>>>>> "housecoat" or "dressing-gown" a few decades ago (maybe
>>>>>> some people still
>>>>>> use it so?); I suppose people who gave the matter any
>>>>>> thought knew that
>>>>>> the word came from Japan, but a reference to a US woman
>>>>>> lounging around in
>>>>>> a kimono might not have had much (if any) reference to
>>>> Japan (as an
>>>>>> inexact analogy, probably few native Anglophones think of
>>>>>> India when they
>>>>>> think of pajamas). "Open the kimono" might have had a
>>>>>> non-ethnic sense
>>>>>> like "open the bathrobe" originally, especially if it dates
>>>>>> from before WW
>>>>>> II. Still it would probably have referred to a woman, I
>>>>>> think, although
>>>>>> perhaps not entirely exclusively.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The quotation from the fox-and-badger article is a little
>>>>>> peculiar since I
>>>>>> would expect something like "open his or her clothing"
>>>>>> rather than "open
>>>>>> the kimono" in English text. Two possibilities (among
>>>>>> others): (1) "open
>>>>>> the kimono" was already a fixed expression in English
>>>>>> meaning "expose
>>>>>> oneself" or so; [or] (2) this was translated more-or-less
>>>>>> word-for-word
>>>>>> from some Japanese conventional expression with similar
>>>>>> meaning (with
>>>>>> "the" arbitrarily added in translation) (in this case the
>>>>>> same Japanese
>>>>>> expression might have been translated again independently
>>>>>> for the modern
>>>>>> metaphor).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Doug Wilson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>>
>>> ---
>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/05
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
>

---------------------------------
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 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Tue Jun 21 14:52:32 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:52:32 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <20050621125107.75516.qmail@web53911.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

Pay-ru (IN), Chi-lee (IN), Lie-ma (OH), Rye-o Grand (OH), . . .  Didn't we
cover these a few years ago?

At 08:51 AM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
>Narbonne...
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>
>dInIs
>
> >I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He
> >said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
> >
> >JL
> >
> >Wilson Gray wrote:
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Wilson Gray
> >Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> >On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
> >> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --------
> >>
> >>> During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
> >>> Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
> >>> referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
> >>> the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
> >>> even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
> >>>
> >>> Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
> >>> still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
> >>> where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
> >>> states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
> >>> intonation pattern as "say what?"
> >>>
> >>> -Wilson Gray
> >>
> >> I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
> >> Tennessee).
> >>
> >> And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
> >> the initial syllable)
> >>
> >
> >Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
> >that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 14:59:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:59:54 -0700
Subject: bogeying=boogying
Message-ID: 

My grandmother's NYC word for this (from her 1890s childhood) was "boogie."

I did not know the same word (< "bogey") in a different sense as an ethnic epithet until I was a teenager.

JL

Amorelli  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Amorelli
Subject: Re: bogeying=boogying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry but the only 'bogey' I'm familiar with...:))..is those little hard
balls of snot that unpleasant kids in class used to squish under the surface
of the desk tops for all-comers to find. Mind you, this is Brit.E. circa
1970s.
M.I.Amorelli
EAP, Faculties of Economics and Law,
Sassari
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael McKernan"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 7:30 AM
Subject: bogeying=boogying

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Michael McKernan
> Subject: bogeying=boogying
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Found this 'bogey' today while googling something else:
>
>>Report from the Florida Fiery Foods Show
>>After an oyster dinner, I started bogeying on the dance floor with my
>>niece Emily
>>DeWitt, then with Mary Jane. No one there had ever seen me dance, ...
>>www.fiery-foods.com/zine-industry/flashow.html - 12k - Cached - Similar
>>pages
>
> Google hits: boogying 18,600
> boogieing 7,490
>
> While there are nearly 14,000 google hits for 'bogeying', all that I saw
> (a
> very brief glance) pertain to golf 'bogeys,' rather than the
> 'boogie'-derived usage here, but at least some other boogie/bogeys turn
> up:
>
>>Midnight menu at Right Place
>>Today, Chennai conjures images of BPOs, discoth?ques and party animals
>>bogeying
>>into the wee hours of the night. The city, indeed, never sleeps! ...
>>www.chennaionline.com/hotelsandtours/ Restaurants/2005/03rightplace.asp -
>>67k - Jun 17, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>Discover Native America 2001
>>... just inches from the drummers, slamming, thrashing, striking the heat
>>taut
>>hides, the drums, suspended on wooden pegs, undulating, bogeying,
>>shimmying. ...
>>www.cgcas.org/dna.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>Jazz | JazzTimes Magazine > Reviews > Concert Reviews
>>Jumping, twirling, dropping to their knees and just plain bogeying, the
>>group
>>worked up a sweat that of course led to their abandoning their fancy
>>pinstripe ...
>>www.jazztimes.com/reviews/ concert_reviews/detail.cfm?article=10318 - 32k
>>- Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>The Blues Audience newsletter
>>Sugar Ray & The Bluetones got the crowd out on the floor, dancing, and
>>kept them
>>bogeying all night long. With "Monster" Mike Welch on guitar, ...
>>www.bluesaudience.com/sugarray.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>DwightOzard.com | Lover's Quarrel Article: Dance, White Boy, Dance ...
>>Call it what you want-"getting down," "bogeying," "tripping Dick Clark and
>>the
>>light-fantastic," whatever-but when James Brown comes on, there is only
>>one ...
>>www.dwightozard.com/lq-article.asp?id=78 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
>>
>>USCG Auxiliary 1SR
>>Bogeying on the tarmac.Tom Negri, FC 13-06 starting the twist contest, A
>>closer
>>view of the castle which captured the hearts of the kids. ...
>>www.cgaux1sr.org/photo/d13Blessing/div13Blessing.htm - 11k - Cached -
>>Similar pages
>
> Etc.
>
> Not sure if this qualifies for eggcorn status.
>
> Michael McKernan
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005
>
>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 15:03:03 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:03:03 -0700
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

"Weed" and "Bliss" must've been renamed in the '60s.  Come on, John, what were they originally ?

JL

"Baker, John"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And don't forget Monticello. Unusual place names seem to be a
strength of Kentucky's.

John Baker (who grew up between Weed and Bliss, next to Jaybird Ridge)

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Dennis R. Preston
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:43 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"

Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...

dInIs

>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He said
>it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>
>JL

---------------------------------
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 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:09:53 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:09:53 -0500
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <2866623b40d5db8f4dc521834ea53a90@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

In north Louisiana is a town the locals call DEL-high, although it's
spelled Delhi.

sally donlon

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:08:21 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

Dictionary of New Terms

Compiled by the History of the English Language classes at Hope College, 
1997-2002

http://www.hope.edu/academic/english/gruenler/newterms.htm

An alphabetical list of 574 expressions, many of them college slang and many 
of them local to Hope College. Some are familiar to me, many are not; some 
may be of interest to readers of this list. Some examples:

 	academic placenta n. The last of one's academic ideology that exists 
in one's first years as a professional in the real world. "That new guy is 
insufferable. He really needs to shed his academic placenta and figure out 
how things really work around here." Used by those in the business world. 
See: www.sabram.com/site/slang.html.

 	airborne v. intr. A technical term used by the even year pull team. 
When the pullers are on the rope, one might say, "Airborne, lets fly." This 
means to get the rope up off the ground on the next heave. This word also 
gets everyone on the team excited and crazy. [Presumably local to Hope 
College, judging by "the even year pull team".-- MAM]

 	gaposis n. The condition that arises when the fabric between the 
buttons on a shirt does not lie flat and instead comes apart to expose the 
skin. "I shouldn't have worn this shirt without something under it, I have 
been experiencing gaposis."

 	word n. A question asked to another person in greeting them. This is 
to ask someone what the word is on how they are and what they are doing. As 
a person walks past they may be greeted with, "Word!" This derives from 
"word" as information or news. "Word up" is a common phrase used with this 
definition to ask what is happening with someone else. Often used in 
alternative and rap music. [This is the first time I have seen any etymology 
for this expression. -- MAM]

 	wormburner n. A fast and hard tee shot in golf that never rises more 
than a few feet from the ground and just streaks along the ground. This 
refers to the speed and friction that causes heat so close to the ground 
that will literally burn the worms. "Wow, that was a wormburner
better luck 
next time. Ha, ha!"

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Tue Jun 21 15:11:10 2005
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Lemay)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:11:10 +0000
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

North Byoo-na Vista, (IA).
Often abbreviated as Byoonie.

From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:24:37 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:24:37 -0400
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: <20050621105756.R18889@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Mark A. Mandel wrote:
> Dictionary of New Terms
>
> Compiled by the History of the English Language classes at Hope College,
> 1997-2002
>
> http://www.hope.edu/academic/english/gruenler/newterms.htm
>
> An alphabetical list of 574 expressions, many of them college slang and
> many of them local to Hope College. Some are familiar to me, many are
> not; some may be of interest to readers of this list. Some examples:

>     gaposis n. The condition that arises when the fabric between the
> buttons on a shirt does not lie flat and instead comes apart to expose
> the skin. "I shouldn't have worn this shirt without something under it,
> I have been experiencing gaposis."
>

My father (born NYC, 1920-ish) regularly used gaposis, in this meaning,
when I was growing up.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                    faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                           tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                        fax (203) 865-8963

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 21 15:23:38 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:23:38 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
Message-ID: 

        I gather that Bliss previously was known, briefly, as Turk.  I
don't know why, but I'm going to guess that a Mr. Turk was involved.  If
Weed ever had another name, I don't know what it was; it wasn't a big
place, just a store and a few houses on Meatskin Road. Bliss and Weed
are pretty much defunct now, and were already in the 1960s.  They were
originally named after individuals (in the case of Weed, after Charles
Weed Sparks, Sr., who also had Sparksville named after him).

        The folks on Jaybird Ridge now call it Jones Chapel.  I liked
Jaybird Ridge better.  When it was called Jaybird Ridge, they all
claimed to be from my native Gradyville, a smaller but better-known and
more prestigious place.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 11:03 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"

"Weed" and "Bliss" must've been renamed in the '60s.  Come on, John,
what were they originally ?

JL

"Baker, John"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

And don't forget Monticello. Unusual place names seem to be a strength
of Kentucky's.

John Baker (who grew up between Weed and Bliss, next to Jaybird Ridge)

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:25:11 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:25:11 -0400
Subject: 'We' for 'I' in writing
In-Reply-To: <20050621040004.EE306B25D0@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Larry interprets me as follows:
   >>>>>

I at least imagine there's a slight difference, emerging from the
usual function of "from" to indicate source and "for" either goal or,
in this case, benefactive/substitutive (= 'for the sake of').   The
"tell them from me", in other words, is something like 'make it clear
to them that the information comes from me', while "tell them for me"
is either 'tell them in my stead" or 'tell them for my sake' or
whatever, but in any case without the implication that I am (that is,
Mark is) the source of the opinion.
 <<<<<

Spot on!

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:27:56 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:27:56 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <20050621040004.EE306B25D0@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Barry quoth:
   >>>>>

I walked by a Harlem restaurant on Malcolm X Boulevard (Lenox Avenue)
and about 120th Street. A sign on the wall said "No pork on my fork."
...

Ludacris said this. Is he Jewish? That would be luda--crazy. If anyone
has any info on where this comes from and how it is used, send it along but
keep it kosher...Maybe I'll add it to the food section of my "Big Apple" site.
...

I'm not at NYU to check FACTIVA.
 <<<<<

(I'm not sure I'm picking apart citations and comments correctly, but
anyway...)

Doesn't have to be kosher; more likely halal, in Harlem.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:33:19 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:33:19 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use (was: "opening the kimono" (1979?,
 1984))
In-Reply-To: <20050621040004.EE306B25D0@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

Victoria writes:
   >>>>>
Well, M-W's 11th Collegiate and New Oxford American have a "long-o"
final syllable for the first pronun listed, with the schwa pron as the
single alternate; American Heritage 4th and Webster's New World 4th
list the schwa pron first, with the long o as an alternate pron of
almost equal currency
 <<<<<

I have only ever used the "long-o" final syllable, but then, I have never
used the word to mean anything but the Japanese garment.

-- Mark M.
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:44:52 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:44:52 -0400
Subject: "As If"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 7:03 AM -0400 6/21/05, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>I assume that the expression "as if" did not originate in the 1995 film
>Clueless.  Any opinions as to whether that film popularized the
>expression?  Does anyone have any early citations for it?
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
On a related topic, Fred and others may (or may not) want to check
out tonight's AFI extravaganza on CBS-TV, a three-hour countdown* of
the top 100 American movie quotes of all time.  Fred, if you give us
your list, we can compare and contrast.

Larry

*In writing this, I began wondering when _countdown_ began--I
remember it from pop/rock music radio shows, of the top n hits of the
week or (on New Year's Eve) of the year, well before I heard it from
those rocketry geeks over at Cape Canaveral, but the OED has lots of
rocketry/missile launch cites (beginning 1953) and no entry for the
pop radio usage, which is certainly where the "countdown" in shows
like tonight's transferred from.  It's now very widespread--ESPN, for
example, uses the device constantly for all sorts of shows ranking
the top n whatevers (plays of the day, all-time comebacks, on-field
blow-ups,...).

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 15:56:54 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:56:54 -0400
Subject: "gay vague"
In-Reply-To: <20050621124946.28735.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

At 5:49 AM -0700 6/21/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Slow news day.
>
>JL

Well, I'm not sure.  In the Sunday Styles section, it's *always* a
slow news day, but they do always seem to come up with *some*thing...

Actually, I'm more used to seeing the phrase used to describe not
people but ads, as reflected in a 5-year-old article that I
distribute in my language, sex & gender class, excerpted below.

larry
==========================

The New York Times
July 20, 2000, Thursday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section F; Page 1; Column 2; House & Home/Style Desk
  HEADLINE: When Intentions Fall Between the Lines
  BYLINE:  By WILLIAM L. HAMILTON

  ARE the billboards in New York advertising the Grand Can, a
swivel-top, orange-pop-colored trash can, a boast about the
sophistication of its design or of its buyers?

  "Swings Both Ways," the ad states. It should know. It does, too.

  Same-sex innuendo is showing up more and more in national
advertising, and in more consumer categories, from automobiles, beer
and soft drinks to home furnishings, once as lifeless in its
advertised image as a period room.

  Inspired by the license taken by fashion advertisers, "gay vague"
advertising, as marketers call it (designed to reach both gay and
mainstream audiences) has become the leading edge, many in the
industry say. And conveniently, where mainstream audiences see
ambiguity, gay audiences see a direct sales pitch.

  In Mitchell Gold furniture ads running in national magazines now,
two smiling young men sit on a white sofa, with a blond little girl
between them on a child's chair. A) They are college friends with a
sister. B) They are an attractive couple. The girl is their daughter
Dorothy. And you aren't in Kansas anymore.

  The muscleman in the tight, short-sleeved business shirt pressing
his knuckles into a desk, in newspaper and telephone kiosk
advertisements for Dallak office furniture, is Dallak's targeted
customer: young, active, sexy, fit. And an identifiable icon for
urban gay men.

  "We intended to be inclusive," said Neil Schwartzberg, the president
of Dallek. "A new unsedentary image of offices. Hard-bodied furniture
for hard-bodied people."

  Gay vague advertising aims at what many companies believe is an
affluent gay dollar, while also displaying a casual, inclusive
attitude toward same-sex issues that advertisers hope will capture
  younger, hip mainstream consumers.
...

>
>"Steve Kl."  wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Steve Kl."
>Subject: "gay vague"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I'm nominating "gay vague" for something next January, not sure what.
>Probably most unnecessary.
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/fashion/sundaystyles/19GAYDAR.html
>
>The weird thing about reading this article is that almost all of the
>quotations sound stilted, like the reporter asked the people to use "gay
>vague" in a sentence. I find it odd that that many people would
>spontaneously produce this phrase to describe this "phenomenon".
>
>(It's not new to 2005, per
>http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?mode=4 it
>appears to have been coined in 1997. But unless it dies a quick death, it
>will be newly prominent this year thanks to the NYT exposure.)
>
>I find it odd for something coined in 1997 that has only about 800 google
>hits being featured in an article where people are dropping the term into
>their quotations left and right, as though it were a phrase on everyone's
>tongues. (I have never heard it uttered out loud, myself. Maybe Boston's
>just too parochial.)
>
>It's also not that productive: "gay vagueness" gets 19 hits.
>
>New Yorkers: is this phrase bandied about on the streets the way this
>article would have us believe?
>
>-- Steve K
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 16:00:58 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:00:58 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use (was: "opening the kimono" (1979?,
 1984))
In-Reply-To: <20050621113141.I18889@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:33 AM -0400 6/21/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>Victoria writes:
>    >>>>>
>Well, M-W's 11th Collegiate and New Oxford American have a "long-o"
>final syllable for the first pronun listed, with the schwa pron as the
>single alternate; American Heritage 4th and Webster's New World 4th
>list the schwa pron first, with the long o as an alternate pron of
>almost equal currency
>  <<<<<
>
>I have only ever used the "long-o" final syllable, but then, I have never
>used the word to mean anything but the Japanese garment.
>
ditto, on both conjuncts

Larry

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 21 16:02:49 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:02:49 -0400
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

MAM writes:
>gaposis n. The condition that arises when the fabric between the
>buttons on a shirt does not lie flat and instead comes apart to expose the
>skin. "I shouldn't have worn this shirt without something under it, I have
>been experiencing gaposis."
~~~~~~~~~
"Gaposis" was, AFAIK, invented by some ad copywriter for (?) Talon zippers
back in the 30s or 40s, when zippers were new.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 16:01:34 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:01:34 -0400
Subject: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <200506211544.j5LFieJO019720@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Laurence Horn wrote:

> On a related topic, Fred and others may (or may not) want to check
> out tonight's AFI extravaganza on CBS-TV, a three-hour countdown* of
> the top 100 American movie quotes of all time.  Fred, if you give us
> your list, we can compare and contrast.

I am eagerly awaiting tonight's show.  The "as if" question arose from my
study of the list of 400 quotes nominated for the AFI top 100 listing.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Jun 21 16:05:26 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:05:26 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

From:    Bapopik at AOL.COM

> I walked by a Harlem restaurant on Malcolm X Boulevard (Lenox Avenue)
> and=20 about 120th Street. A sign on the wall said "No pork on my
> fork."

> Ludacris said this. Is he Jewish? That would be luda--crazy. If
> anyone  has=20 any info on where this comes from and how it is used,
> send it along but keep= it kosher...Maybe I'll add it to the food
> section of my "Big Apple" site.

Maybe he's Islamic, or at least follows some of its tenets?

--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 16:06:52 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:06:52 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050621104845.0307c300@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 10:52 AM -0400 6/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Pay-ru (IN), Chi-lee (IN), Lie-ma (OH), Rye-o Grand (OH), . . .  Didn't we
>cover these a few years ago?

We did indeed, and probably a few years before that.  It's your basic
comet scenario.

On each of those occasions, I must have nominated my favorite, Chili,
NY (suburb of Rochester), pronounced [CHAI-lai], as in jai-alai.  And
of course the Ohioan pronunciation of "Lima" is also found in the
general pronunciation of the eponymous bean.

Larry

>At 08:51 AM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
>>Narbonne...
>>
>>JL
>>
>>"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>
>>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He
>>>said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>>>
>>>JL
>>>
>>>Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>-----------------------
>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>------
>>>
>>>On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>  Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
>>>>  Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  --------
>>>>
>>>>>  During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>>>>>  Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>>>>>  referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>>>>>  the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>>>>>  even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>>>>
>>>>>  Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>>>>>  still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>>>>>  where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>>>>>  states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>>>>>  intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>>>>
>>>>>  -Wilson Gray
>>>>
>>>>  I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
>>>>  Tennessee).
>>>>
>>>>  And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>>>>  the initial syllable)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>>>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>>>
>>>-Wilson
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>>A-740 Wells Hall
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824
>>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>preston at msu.edu
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Yahoo! Sports
>>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 21 16:42:28 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:42:28 -0400
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:08:21 -0400, Mark A. Mandel
 wrote:

>Dictionary of New Terms
>
>Compiled by the History of the English Language classes at Hope College,
>1997-2002
>
>http://www.hope.edu/academic/english/gruenler/newterms.htm
[...]
>       word n. A question asked to another person in greeting them. This
>is to ask someone what the word is on how they are and what they are
>doing. As a person walks past they may be greeted with, "Word!" This
>derives from "word" as information or news. "Word up" is a common phrase
>used with this definition to ask what is happening with someone else.
>Often used in alternative and rap music. [This is the first time I have
>seen any etymology for this expression. -- MAM]

The online Rap Dictionary on "word up":

        http://www.rapdict.org/Word_up
        word up
        1. A question like "What's up?", or "What's the word?".
        2. A term of agreement, acknowledgment, and/or greeting.

It was popularized by the 1986 Cameo song "Word Up!". From Allmusic.com:

        http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:us98sd6ba3zg
        Using a popular phrase as the title of a song is a
        standard songwriting technique that can yield great
        results. Cameo leader Larry Blackmon heard the
        expression 'word up' while making his rounds in the
        party scene. He thought the slang phrase would be a
        great title for a song.

Some lyrics:

        Come on baby, tell me what's the word
        Ah - word up, everybody say
        When you hear the call you got to get it underway
        Word up, it's the code word, no matter where you say it
        You'll know that you'll be heard

--Ben Zimmer

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 21 16:47:09 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:47:09 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:35:22 -0400, Wilson Gray  wrote:
>On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>> "Poppa-stoppa" doesn't come close, but there was a series of beloved
>> New Orleans DJs in the '60s who went by that name. The word was in
>> print by '46.
>
>DJ's used it?! This may be crying Wol(o)f, but I've long been under the
>impression that "poppa-stoppa" was a kind of punning pseudo-euphemism
>for "mutha-fukka," inspired by a traditional joke - told and re-told by
>generations of little boys, each passing it along under the impression
>that they are the first to have heard it - whose punch line is, "That
>woddn no 'whoppa!' That was my asshole-stoppa!"

I assume {mammy/mamma/mama}-{jammer/jammy/jamma} is in the same family of
jocular euphemisms?

--Ben Zimmer

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 21 17:09:40 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:09:40 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

And back then I objected to the Chili nomination, countering with
southern Indiana's Gnaw Bone (derived from the French Narbonne).
Still the winner in my opinion since more than pronunciation is
involved.

dInIs

>At 10:52 AM -0400 6/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Pay-ru (IN), Chi-lee (IN), Lie-ma (OH), Rye-o Grand (OH), . . .  Didn't we
>>cover these a few years ago?
>
>We did indeed, and probably a few years before that.  It's your basic
>comet scenario.
>
>On each of those occasions, I must have nominated my favorite, Chili,
>NY (suburb of Rochester), pronounced [CHAI-lai], as in jai-alai.  And
>of course the Ohioan pronunciation of "Lima" is also found in the
>general pronunciation of the eponymous bean.
>
>Larry
>
>>At 08:51 AM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
>>>Narbonne...
>>>
>>>JL
>>>
>>>"Dennis R. Preston"  wrote:
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>-----------------------
>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>>>
>>>dInIs
>>>
>>>>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama. He
>>>>said it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>>>>
>>>>JL
>>>>
>>>>Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>------
>>>>
>>>>On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>  Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
>>>>>  Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>>>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>  --------
>>>>>
>>>>>>  During the Korean-War era, a friend of mine was stationed at
>>>>>>  Redstone Arsenal at Huntsville. According to him, GI's
>>>>>>  referred to the locals as "doo-wahs," because of a feature of
>>>>>>  the local dialect. Instead of saying, "huh? or "what?" or
>>>>>>  even "say what?", the locals said, "_Do_ what?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Thanks to Jerry Springer, I can testify that "do what?" is
>>>>>>  still used in this way, though, unfortunately, I can't say
>>>>>>  where, since the "guests" don't always mention their home
>>>>>>  states or hometowns. To my ear, "do what?" has the same
>>>>>>  intonation pattern as "say what?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  -Wilson Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>  I still say "do what?" in the context you mention (reared in Middle
>>>>>  Tennessee).
>>>>>
>>>>>  And that would have been the KO-re-un war . . . (strong emphasis on
>>>>>  the initial syllable)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Needless to say, I don't think that you'll have any problem believing
>>>>that the same people who say "JAY pan" also say "KO rea." ;-)
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Dennis R. Preston
>>>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>>>A-740 Wells Hall
>>>Michigan State University
>>>East Lansing, MI 48824
>>>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>>preston at msu.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Yahoo! Sports
>>>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 432-3791
Fax: (517) 453-3755

From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Tue Jun 21 17:07:22 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:07:22 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:00 PM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
>At 11:33 AM -0400 6/21/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>>Victoria writes:
>>    >>>>>
>>Well, M-W's 11th Collegiate and New Oxford American have a "long-o"
>>final syllable for the first pronun listed, with the schwa pron as the
>>single alternate; American Heritage 4th and Webster's New World 4th
>>list the schwa pron first, with the long o as an alternate pron of
>>almost equal currency
>>  <<<<<
>>
>>I have only ever used the "long-o" final syllable, but then, I have never
>>used the word to mean anything but the Japanese garment.
>ditto, on both conjuncts
>
>Larry

Ah, but you're not wearers of the thing!  I never used the word "kimono/a"
either, but my mother did; as Vicki and I said before, it appears to come
from that earlier generation--probably as a catchy "exotic" term for a then
new lightweight maybe flowery garment to be worn over a nightie (that's a
cute one) at breakfast.  I suspect the earlier Victorian era items were
heavy, dark, and stodgy.

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 21 16:37:21 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:37:21 -0400
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing in
those days:
"Halitosis" (Listerine)
"B.O." (Lifebuoy)
"Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
"Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry)
There was some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten, promoted
by Fitch's Shampoo.

Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as being
more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."

A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 18:22:13 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:22:13 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f5aarj@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 9:39 AM, Steve Kl. wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Steve Kl." 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>> Don't forget Hayti, Missouri, pronounced "HAY tie," not to mention
>> that
>> Madrid, Missouri is pronounced [MAE drId].
>
> I've mentioned this before, but my favorite is still Pompeii
> "POM-pee-eye"
> Michigan.
>

That's a goodn, all right. In fact, IMO, it takes JAY-pan to the
woodshed.

-Wilson

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 18:27:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:27:16 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f5cafl@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

Wasn't Monticello in the news last year, as a result of a
near-inundation by floodwaters? There's also a Weed in Northern
California, not far from Sacramento.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Baker, John wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Baker, John" 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         And don't forget Monticello.  Unusual place names seem to be a
> strength of Kentucky's.
>
>
> John Baker (who grew up between Weed and Bliss, next to Jaybird Ridge)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> Behalf
> Of Dennis R. Preston
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:43 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>
> Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>
> dInIs
>
>> I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama.  He said
>> it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>>
>> JL
>

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 21 18:37:04 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:37:04 -0500
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

I've heard, but have no documentation for, that the idea of a
"countdown" for a missile/rocket launch was an invention of the Germans
at Peenemuende (where the V-2 rocket was developed), and when they came
to America after the war, to support V-2 launches at Ft. Bliss
(1946-1950), and then here to Huntsville for the development of Army and
NASA rockets, they brought countdowns with them.  So the term could show
up in US technical documents as early as 1946 or so.

Contemporary accounts of the Manhattan Project show that a countdown was
used at the Trinity test, but I can't find the word "countdown" in any
contemporary accounts online.

Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
off":

     "She answered, "Board green!  Clear from tower! Ready for count
off!"
     "Minus thirty! Twenty-nine -- twenty-eight --" He broke off and
added sheepishly, "It does feel good." "
[from Amazon.com's Inside the Book]

OED has 1953

> *In writing this, I began wondering when _countdown_ began--I
> remember it from pop/rock music radio shows, of the top n
> hits of the week or (on New Year's Eve) of the year, well
> before I heard it from those rocketry geeks over at Cape
> Canaveral, but the OED has lots of rocketry/missile launch
> cites (beginning 1953) and no entry for the pop radio usage,
> which is certainly where the "countdown" in shows like
> tonight's transferred from.  It's now very widespread--ESPN,
> for example, uses the device constantly for all sorts of
> shows ranking the top n whatevers (plays of the day, all-time
> comebacks, on-field blow-ups,...).
>

From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 21 18:37:07 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:37:07 -0700
Subject: "gay vague"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:56 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> Actually, I'm more used to seeing the phrase used to describe not
> people but ads, as reflected in a 5-year-old article that I
> distribute in my language, sex & gender class...

me too.  the use in the NYT piece to refer to people was new to me.
i'm pretty sure i've never heard it out here in sodom-by-the-sea, or
on soc.motss.  now, the Gay or Eurotrash? game has been around on-
line for years...

arnold

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 21 18:39:16 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:39:16 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:07:22 -0400, Beverly Flanigan 
wrote:
>At 12:00 PM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
>>At 11:33 AM -0400 6/21/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>>>
>>>I have only ever used the "long-o" final syllable, but then, I have
>>>never used the word to mean anything but the Japanese garment.
>>ditto, on both conjuncts
>>
>>Larry
>
>Ah, but you're not wearers of the thing!  I never used the word
>"kimono/a" either, but my mother did; as Vicki and I said before, it
>appears to come from that earlier generation--probably as a catchy
>"exotic" term for a then new lightweight maybe flowery garment to be
>worn over a nightie (that's a cute one) at breakfast.  I suspect the
>earlier Victorian era items were heavy, dark, and stodgy.

But the kimono itself first caught Western interest in the Victorian era.
I think it dates back to Anglo-American fascination with Meiji-era Japan
in the 1880s, famously reflected in Gilbert and Sullivan's _Mikado_ (Mike
Leigh's 1999 film _Topsy-Turvy_ captures this Japanophilia vividly).

By the turn of the 20th century one can find ads in the Chicago Tribune
for "kimono wrappers" from Marshall Field's. There were even elaborate
kimono parties among fashionable ladies...

-----
Chicago Tribune, Jul 14, 1901, p. 46
KIMONO TEA THE LATEST FAD.
Fashionable Women Find Comfortable Form of Afternoon Reception.

The latest thing for a warm day social function is the "kimono tea." The
invitation is in the usual form of a calling card of the hostess, with the
date written in the lower lefthand corner, but across the top is written
the word "kimono." This is inclosed in a tiny envelope, which is addressed
in Japanese style, beginning at the wrong end, Illinois, Chicago, Sheridan
road, number, Smith John Mrs. For the convenience of Uncle Sam this is
reinclosed in an ordinary envelope and addressed in the usual manner.
[...]
The hostess receives her guests, who are all ladies, dressed in any light,
clinging skirts, but, instead of a fancy modern waist, she wears a kimono.
Her hair is dressed in Japanese style, she wears pointed embroidered
slippers, and her face is heavily powdered. In greeting each guest she
bows low three times. The guests are conducted to the waiting-room, where
a maid assists them to don slippers and kimonos, and to use freely the
rice powder, and after the hostess has greeted them they find scattered
about the rooms a variety of cushions on which they are expected to
recline or sit, the chairs being conspicuous by their absence.
[etc.]
-----

And here's an early indication that the Americanization of the kimono was
accompanied by a change in the spelling/pronunciation of the final vowel:

-----
Washington Post, Jul 27, 1902, p. 33
NEGLIGEES FOR SUMMER WEAR.

>From the kimonos, the genuine sort spelled with a final o, and the
Americanized ones that are spelled sometimes with an o, sometimes with an
a ... every style, every gradation of quality and of beauty is spread
before us.
-----

--Ben Zimmer

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 18:41:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:41:50 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>And back then I objected to the Chili nomination, countering with
>southern Indiana's Gnaw Bone (derived from the French Narbonne).
>Still the winner in my opinion since more than pronunciation is
>involved.
>
>dInIs

Well, yours certainly does win the Picketwire Memorial Award for
creativity, whipping up on Chili > Chai-lai.  I'd even toast it with
a prize-winning Gnaw Bone Pale Ale, only they don't seem to be
carried in Connecticut.  BUT (a big but):  Are we really sure this
isn't an etymythological creation story?  According to at least one
site, http://www.southernin.com/Pages/archives/march_01/names.html,
the Narbonne version is one of several on the market.  Note the
reference to "an educated guess, or perhaps legend of the
educated"--sounds a lot like etymythology to me, if Ms. Willis can be
trusted.  Y'unnastand I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

Larry
===========

Wanda Willis is a Hoosier Folklorist and Historian who contributes to
SouthernIN.com and also makes regular appearances at the Indianapolis
Public Library System.

What's in A Name?
By Wanda L. Willis

There are narratives explaining the origin for most of the unusual
names. These intriguing accounts are legends often believed and may
or may not be based in fact. If there'd been some truth in the
beginning, through years of retelling today they're more legend than
fact.

Let's begin exploring a few of these Hoosier place names. If you're
curious about your own home place please send a query to the editors
and I will try to give you an answer.

There are several legends surrounding Brown County villages. One
story about Gnaw Bone states the Hawkins family had built a store and
sawmill there. When one man asked another if he had seen Hawkins, the
latter replied, "I seed him settin' on a log above the sawmill
gnawin' a bone." An educated guess, or perhaps legend of the
educated, is that French settlers named the town for a French city,
Narbonne. Through time it became pronounced and spelled Gnaw Bone.

Peoga [pee-O-guh] (Brown) also has an interesting story. The origin
of the name is uncertain, but some villagers claim it's a Native
American word for "village." According to local legend, however, the
name comes from a holler a farmer used every morning to call his hogs.

Doc Jesse Isaacs was acting postmaster in the Jackson County
community of Surprise and is supposedly responsible for its name. As
the story goes he expressed his surprise that the village got a
railroad through it and a post office - hence, the name.
...

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 18:43:56 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:43:56 -0400
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing in
>those days:
>"Halitosis" (Listerine)
>"B.O." (Lifebuoy)
>"Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
>"Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry)
>There was some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten, promoted
>by Fitch's Shampoo.

And let's not forget "Ring around the collar", an insidious and
generally fatal disorder, curable only by I forget which product.

>Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as being
>more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."
>
>A. Murie
>
>~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 18:50:59 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:50:59 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <82c772fff23254e64cc12ab3ac6a7eb3@rcn.com>
Message-ID: 

>Wasn't Monticello in the news last year, as a result of a
>near-inundation by floodwaters? There's also a Weed in Northern
>California, not far from Sacramento.
>
>-Wilson Gray

"There's a Weed in Northern California"--sounds like a song title
that didn't quite make the final cut for the production of "Hair"...

L

>On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Baker, John wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society 
>>Poster:       "Baker, John" 
>>Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>         And don't forget Monticello.  Unusual place names seem to be a
>>strength of Kentucky's.
>>
>>
>>John Baker (who grew up between Weed and Bliss, next to Jaybird Ridge)
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>Behalf
>>Of Dennis R. Preston
>>Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:43 AM
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: "No pork on my fork"
>>
>>Ah! Versailles, Madrid, Cairo...
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>I had a friend in grad school who grew up near Arab, Alabama.  He said
>>>it was always pronounced "AY-rab."
>>>
>>>JL

From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 18:54:52 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:54:52 -0500
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: <200506211843.j5LIhirp014904@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: 

Laurence Horn wrote:
> And let's not forget "Ring around the collar", an insidious and
> generally fatal disorder, curable only by I forget which product.

Wisk. "Wisk around the collar beats ring around the collar", IIRC.

Jim Parish
-------------------------------------------------
SIUE Web Mail

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 19:00:32 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:00:32 -0400
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D9FDD2B@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: 

>I've heard, but have no documentation for, that the idea of a
>"countdown" for a missile/rocket launch was an invention of the Germans
>at Peenemuende (where the V-2 rocket was developed), and when they came
>to America after the war, to support V-2 launches at Ft. Bliss
>(1946-1950), and then here to Huntsville for the development of Army and
>NASA rockets, they brought countdowns with them.  So the term could show
>up in US technical documents as early as 1946 or so.
>
>Contemporary accounts of the Manhattan Project show that a countdown was
>used at the Trinity test, but I can't find the word "countdown" in any
>contemporary accounts online.
>
>Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
>off":
>
>      "She answered, "Board green!  Clear from tower! Ready for count
>off!"
>      "Minus thirty! Twenty-nine -- twenty-eight --" He broke off and
>added sheepishly, "It does feel good." "
>[from Amazon.com's Inside the Book]
>
>
>OED has 1953
>

Right, that's the one I was noting below, along with the lack of any
entry or documentation for the pop music "countdown".  Does anyone
have a date for that?  As I mentioned, I remember the music
countdowns themselves from the mid-1950s (top 40 of the week, top 400
of the year, even one for the decade--probably on 12/12/59), but I
can't remember when the word itself was introduced.  In any case, it
does seem culturally salient enough by now to have earned a place in
dictionaries, and AHD4 doesn't include it either, just the missile
sense.  Note that the standard sense provided for the latter--AHD's
is 'The counting backward aloud from an arbitrary starting number to
indicate the time remaining before an event or operation, such as the
launching of a missile or space vehicle'--doesn't really apply
directly to the former, in which the counting down *is* the event.
You can watch the AFI show tonight if you don't believe me.

Larry

>
>
>>  *In writing this, I began wondering when _countdown_ began--I
>>  remember it from pop/rock music radio shows, of the top n
>>  hits of the week or (on New Year's Eve) of the year, well
>>  before I heard it from those rocketry geeks over at Cape
>>  Canaveral, but the OED has lots of rocketry/missile launch
>>  cites (beginning 1953) and no entry for the pop radio usage,
>>  which is certainly where the "countdown" in shows like
>>  tonight's transferred from.  It's now very widespread--ESPN,
>>  for example, uses the device constantly for all sorts of
>>  shows ranking the top n whatevers (plays of the day, all-time
>>  comebacks, on-field blow-ups,...).
>>

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 21 19:01:01 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:01:01 -0400
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

        Note that these have different characteristics.  "Halitosis" and
"B.O." were coined names for recognized problems that already had names
("bad breath" and "body odor," respectively).  The new, euphemistic name
made the problem less of a social stigma, allowing the consumer to
safely buy a product to combat it.  "Athlete's foot" (instead of "foot
fungus") is in this category too.

        "Ring around the collar" and "tattle-tale gray," on the other
hand, were coined terms to address a phenomenon that previously had
barely even been perceived and did not have its own name:  that clothes
washed in laundry soap did not get as white as clothes washed in modern
detergents.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: slang list

>There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing
>in those days:
>"Halitosis" (Listerine)
>"B.O." (Lifebuoy)
>"Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
>"Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry) There was
>some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten, promoted by
>Fitch's Shampoo.

And let's not forget "Ring around the collar", an insidious and
generally fatal disorder, curable only by I forget which product.

>Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as
>being more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."
>
>A. Murie
>
>~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Jun 21 19:02:19 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:02:19 -0500
Subject: potato slur
In-Reply-To: <20050621124514.89087.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

What a great illustration of the Standard Language Ideology!
It shows the belief that (a) the presence of a word/phrase in a dictionary
(especially the OED) legitimizes it, and (b) removing a word/phrase from a
dictionary would actually affect usage.

On 6/21/05 7:45 AM, "Jonathan Lighter"  wrote:

> BREAKING NEWS  FROM FOX
>
> In London today, potato farmers marched on Parliament to demand that the term
> "couch potato" be removed from the prestigious _Oxford English Dictionary_.
>
> The protesting farmers claim that the term demeans the potato and is
> offensive.
>
> They demand it be stricken from the language and replaced with the term "couch
> slouch."
>
> Source: _Fox & Friends_, 3 minutes ago.
>
> We report, you deride.
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
>  Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

From crompton at SOVER.NET  Tue Jun 21 22:14:32 2005
From: crompton at SOVER.NET (carole crompton)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:14:32 -0700
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <200506211900.j5LJ0MtL025069@mx2.sover.net>
Message-ID: 

So when did people start doing a count down from 10 to Happy New Year
on New Year's Eve?
I think I remember it as part of the Guy Lombardo Times Square thing.
Before or during the ball dropping?
CMC

On Tuesday, June 21, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Laurence Horn 
> Subject:      Re: countdown  was: "As If"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> I've heard, but have no documentation for, that the idea of a
>> "countdown" for a missile/rocket launch was an invention of the
>> Germans
>> at Peenemuende (where the V-2 rocket was developed), and when they
>> came
>> to America after the war, to support V-2 launches at Ft. Bliss
>> (1946-1950), and then here to Huntsville for the development of Army
>> and
>> NASA rockets, they brought countdowns with them.  So the term could
>> show
>> up in US technical documents as early as 1946 or so.
>>
>> Contemporary accounts of the Manhattan Project show that a countdown
>> was
>> used at the Trinity test, but I can't find the word "countdown" in any
>> contemporary accounts online.
>>
>> Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
>> off":
>>
>>      "She answered, "Board green!  Clear from tower! Ready for count
>> off!"
>>      "Minus thirty! Twenty-nine -- twenty-eight --" He broke off and
>> added sheepishly, "It does feel good." "
>> [from Amazon.com's Inside the Book]
>>
>>
>> OED has 1953
>>
>
> Right, that's the one I was noting below, along with the lack of any
> entry or documentation for the pop music "countdown".  Does anyone
> have a date for that?  As I mentioned, I remember the music
> countdowns themselves from the mid-1950s (top 40 of the week, top 400
> of the year, even one for the decade--probably on 12/12/59), but I
> can't remember when the word itself was introduced.  In any case, it
> does seem culturally salient enough by now to have earned a place in
> dictionaries, and AHD4 doesn't include it either, just the missile
> sense.  Note that the standard sense provided for the latter--AHD's
> is 'The counting backward aloud from an arbitrary starting number to
> indicate the time remaining before an event or operation, such as the
> launching of a missile or space vehicle'--doesn't really apply
> directly to the former, in which the counting down *is* the event.
> You can watch the AFI show tonight if you don't believe me.
>
> Larry
>
>>
>>
>>>  *In writing this, I began wondering when _countdown_ began--I
>>>  remember it from pop/rock music radio shows, of the top n
>>>  hits of the week or (on New Year's Eve) of the year, well
>>>  before I heard it from those rocketry geeks over at Cape
>>>  Canaveral, but the OED has lots of rocketry/missile launch
>>>  cites (beginning 1953) and no entry for the pop radio usage,
>>>  which is certainly where the "countdown" in shows like
>>>  tonight's transferred from.  It's now very widespread--ESPN,
>>>  for example, uses the device constantly for all sorts of
>>>  shows ranking the top n whatevers (plays of the day, all-time
>>>  comebacks, on-field blow-ups,...).
>>>
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 19:28:42 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:28:42 -0400
Subject: potato slur
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>What a great illustration of the Standard Language Ideology!
>It shows the belief that (a) the presence of a word/phrase in a dictionary
>(especially the OED) legitimizes it, and (b) removing a word/phrase from a
>dictionary would actually affect usage.

And as a one-time acquaintance of Robert Armstrong (a henchman of R.
Crumb), who is not only associated (at least in some quarters) with
the coinage of "couch potato" but has actually received royalties
from the use of the word, I see no slur intended against either
potatoes or couches.  Robert was, and I assume is, a remarkably
non-judgmental sort.  (FWIW, he always claimed he invented it with
the allusion to "toober" in mind.)  I see he's not credited as coiner
by the OED, though, although he was in other stories I've read over
the years.  (He's the Armstrong who co-authored _The Official
Couch-Potato Handbook_ in the 1983 cite, but he was already
silk-screening couch potato T-shirts in the mid-1970s.)

larry

>
>
>On 6/21/05 7:45 AM, "Jonathan Lighter"  wrote:
>
>>  BREAKING NEWS  FROM FOX
>>
>>  In London today, potato farmers marched on Parliament to demand
>>that the term
>>  "couch potato" be removed from the prestigious _Oxford English Dictionary_.
>>
>>  The protesting farmers claim that the term demeans the potato and is
>>  offensive.
>>
>>  They demand it be stricken from the language and replaced with the
>>term "couch
>>  slouch."
>>
>>  Source: _Fox & Friends_, 3 minutes ago.
>>
>>  We report, you deride.
>>
>>  JL
>>
>>
>>  ---------------------------------
>>  Yahoo! Mail
>>   Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 21 19:47:27 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:47:27 -0400
Subject: countdown was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:00:32 -0400, Laurence Horn 
wrote:

>Right, that's the one I was noting below, along with the lack of any
>entry or documentation for the pop music "countdown".  Does anyone
>have a date for that?  As I mentioned, I remember the music
>countdowns themselves from the mid-1950s (top 40 of the week, top 400
>of the year, even one for the decade--probably on 12/12/59), but I
>can't remember when the word itself was introduced.

Surprisingly, I can't find any examples predating the British Invasion--
the earliest "countdowns" I've come across are from 1965.  WCFL in Chicago
had a "British Countdown" on the Jim Stagg show that year (featuring a
real live British DJ, Paul Michael), and KYW/WKYC in Cleveland had a
similarly titled feature on the Jerry G. show.  You can hear an aircheck
for the latter on this site:

http://www.reelradio.com/bt/index.html#jgkyw65

The Reel Radio site and several others have many airchecks from Top 40
shows, so an earlier "countdown" can likely be found in one of the audio
archives.

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 19:53:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:53:45 -0400
Subject: bogeying=boogying
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f5gmua@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter 
> Subject:      Re: bogeying=boogying
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> My grandmother's NYC word for this (from her 1890s childhood) was
> "boogie."
>
> I did not know the same word (< "bogey") in a different sense as an
> ethnic epithet until I was a teenager.
>
> JL
>

I can understand that. I heard "boogie" used as a slur once in a movie
and I've read it in fiction. But I've never heard it used that way by
anyone in real life. I can't recall the title of the movie, but it was
released in 1950 and it was the first vehicle to pair Richard Widmark
and Sidney Poitier as its stars, if anyone cares. Rich was the
working-class, bigoted
white guy and Sid was [surprise!] the saintly, whiter-than-white, black
ER doctor who treated Rich after the white rioters lost to the black
rioters. The line was, I think, "I saw a boogie drivin' a Cadillac a
block long!"

-Wilson

> Amorelli  wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Amorelli
> Subject: Re: bogeying=boogying
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm sorry but the only 'bogey' I'm familiar with...:))..is those
> little hard
> balls of snot that unpleasant kids in class used to squish under the
> surface
> of the desk tops for all-comers to find. Mind you, this is Brit.E.
> circa
> 1970s.
> M.I.Amorelli
> EAP, Faculties of Economics and Law,
> Sassari

Don't we call those "boogers" here in the colonies? FWIW, in BE,
"booger" can be used with a variety of meanings under various
conditions. E.g., when I was in the Army, a black NCO, noting my size -
6' 4" and 210 lbs. - exclaimed, "Damn! You a BIK[sic, via BE emotional
devoicing] booguh, aintcha?!"

-Wilson Gray

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael McKernan"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 7:30 AM
> Subject: bogeying=boogying
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Michael McKernan
>> Subject: bogeying=boogying
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> Found this 'bogey' today while googling something else:
>>
>>> Report from the Florida Fiery Foods Show
>>> After an oyster dinner, I started bogeying on the dance floor with my
>>> niece Emily
>>> DeWitt, then with Mary Jane. No one there had ever seen me dance, ...
>>> www.fiery-foods.com/zine-industry/flashow.html - 12k - Cached -
>>> Similar
>>> pages
>>
>> Google hits: boogying 18,600
>> boogieing 7,490
>>
>> While there are nearly 14,000 google hits for 'bogeying', all that I
>> saw
>> (a
>> very brief glance) pertain to golf 'bogeys,' rather than the
>> 'boogie'-derived usage here, but at least some other boogie/bogeys
>> turn
>> up:
>>
>>> Midnight menu at Right Place
>>> Today, Chennai conjures images of BPOs, discoth?ques and party
>>> animals
>>> bogeying
>>> into the wee hours of the night. The city, indeed, never sleeps! ...
>>> www.chennaionline.com/hotelsandtours/
>>> Restaurants/2005/03rightplace.asp -
>>> 67k - Jun 17, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> Discover Native America 2001
>>> ... just inches from the drummers, slamming, thrashing, striking the
>>> heat
>>> taut
>>> hides, the drums, suspended on wooden pegs, undulating, bogeying,
>>> shimmying. ...
>>> www.cgcas.org/dna.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> Jazz | JazzTimes Magazine > Reviews > Concert Reviews
>>> Jumping, twirling, dropping to their knees and just plain bogeying,
>>> the
>>> group
>>> worked up a sweat that of course led to their abandoning their fancy
>>> pinstripe ...
>>> www.jazztimes.com/reviews/ concert_reviews/detail.cfm?article=10318
>>> - 32k
>>> - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> The Blues Audience newsletter
>>> Sugar Ray & The Bluetones got the crowd out on the floor, dancing,
>>> and
>>> kept them
>>> bogeying all night long. With "Monster" Mike Welch on guitar, ...
>>> www.bluesaudience.com/sugarray.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> DwightOzard.com | Lover's Quarrel Article: Dance, White Boy, Dance
>>> ...
>>> Call it what you want-"getting down," "bogeying," "tripping Dick
>>> Clark and
>>> the
>>> light-fantastic," whatever-but when James Brown comes on, there is
>>> only
>>> one ...
>>> www.dwightozard.com/lq-article.asp?id=78 - 22k - Cached - Similar
>>> pages
>>>
>>> USCG Auxiliary 1SR
>>> Bogeying on the tarmac.Tom Negri, FC 13-06 starting the twist
>>> contest, A
>>> closer
>>> view of the castle which captured the hearts of the kids. ...
>>> www.cgaux1sr.org/photo/d13Blessing/div13Blessing.htm - 11k - Cached -
>>> Similar pages
>>
>> Etc.
>>
>> Not sure if this qualifies for eggcorn status.
>>
>> Michael McKernan
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date:
>> 17/06/2005
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 20:00:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:00:43 -0400
Subject: countdown was: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <30418.69.142.143.59.1119383247.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: 

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:00:32 -0400, Laurence Horn 
>wrote:
>
>>Right, that's the one I was noting below, along with the lack of any
>>entry or documentation for the pop music "countdown".  Does anyone
>>have a date for that?  As I mentioned, I remember the music
>>countdowns themselves from the mid-1950s (top 40 of the week, top 400
>>of the year, even one for the decade--probably on 12/12/59), but I
>>can't remember when the word itself was introduced.
>
>Surprisingly, I can't find any examples predating the British Invasion--
>the earliest "countdowns" I've come across are from 1965.  WCFL in Chicago
>had a "British Countdown" on the Jim Stagg show that year (featuring a
>real live British DJ, Paul Michael), and KYW/WKYC in Cleveland had a
>similarly titled feature on the Jerry G. show.  You can hear an aircheck
>for the latter on this site:
>
>http://www.reelradio.com/bt/index.html#jgkyw65
>
>The Reel Radio site and several others have many airchecks from Top 40
>shows, so an earlier "countdown" can likely be found in one of the audio
>archives.
>
I can't remember the call letters of the station I listened to in New
York, but the DJ was "Peter Tripp, the curly-headed kid from the
third row".  Not quite as popular as Murray the K over that period,
but I was faithful to Peter.  Actually, I should be able to google
the info...

Yup, here's his obit at Reel Radio,
http://www.reelradio.com/gifts/wmgmtripp.html:

Peter Tripp, who wowed radio audiences with his mid-1950s Top-40
countdown record shows on WHB in Kansas City, and later at New York
City's WMGM, died January 31, 2000, at Northridge California
Hospital, following an apparent stroke suffered at his home in West
Hills, California. Tripp was 73 years old.

Tripp became one of the nation's best known Top-40 countdown radio
personalities beginning in 1954 at Todd Storz' WHB in Kansas City,
and at Loew's Theatres' WMGM in New York City from 1955 through 1960
with his "Your Hits Of The Week" program.

Billing himself as "The curly-headed kid in the third row", Tripp is
best remembered for the WMGM promotion where he remained awake for
201 hours during a sleep deprivation stunt benefitting the March Of
Dimes.

======
WMGM it was, and the 1955 date certainly does fit my "mid-1950's"
memory above.  And he was the curly-headed kid *in*, not *from* the
third row, but not bad on my part, considering I usually can't recall
whether I sent out a recommendation letter a month ago or not.  So
the only question is whether he called it a countdown, which I recall
him doing, but wouldn't swear to it on a stack of old 45s.  Of course
I'm not claiming he coined the term or invented the concept, just
that that's where I remember it from.

Larry

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Jun 21 20:04:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:04:14 -0400
Subject: countdown was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:47:27 -0400, Benjamin Zimmer
 wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:00:32 -0400, Laurence Horn 
>wrote:
>
>>Right, that's the one I was noting below, along with the lack of any
>>entry or documentation for the pop music "countdown".  Does anyone
>>have a date for that?  As I mentioned, I remember the music
>>countdowns themselves from the mid-1950s (top 40 of the week, top 400
>>of the year, even one for the decade--probably on 12/12/59), but I
>>can't remember when the word itself was introduced.
>
>Surprisingly, I can't find any examples predating the British Invasion--
>the earliest "countdowns" I've come across are from 1965.  WCFL in
>Chicago had a "British Countdown" on the Jim Stagg show that year
>(featuring a real live British DJ, Paul Michael), and KYW/WKYC in
>Cleveland had a similarly titled feature on the Jerry G. show.  You can
>hear an aircheck for the latter on this site:
>
>http://www.reelradio.com/bt/index.html#jgkyw65
>
>The Reel Radio site and several others have many airchecks from Top 40
>shows, so an earlier "countdown" can likely be found in one of the audio
>archives.

Aha, sure enough... here's a "countdown show" from The Real Don Steele
(later a prominent Los Angeles DJ) on KIMA Yakima, Mar. 12, 1961:

http://www.reelradio.com/rdsc/airchecks.html

You can hear on the audio that the sound of a rocket blast accompanies the
word "countdown".

--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 20:08:15 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:08:15 -0400
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f5hcqp@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" 
> Subject:      slang list
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable
> text,
>   while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
> tools.
>
> --0-590426743-1119366501=:18889
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
>
> Dictionary of New Terms
>
> Compiled by the History of the English Language classes at Hope
> College,=20
> 1997-2002
>
> http://www.hope.edu/academic/english/gruenler/newterms.htm
>
> An alphabetical list of 574 expressions, many of them college slang
> and man=
> y=20
> of them local to Hope College. Some are familiar to me, many are not;
> some=
> =20
> may be of interest to readers of this list. Some examples:
>
>  =09academic placenta n. The last of one's academic ideology that
> exists=20
> in one's first years as a professional in the real world. "That new
> guy is=
> =20
> insufferable. He really needs to shed his academic placenta and figure
> out=
> =20
> how things really work around here." Used by those in the business
> world.=
> =20
> See: www.sabram.com/site/slang.html.
>
>  =09airborne v. intr. A technical term used by the even year pull
> team.=20
> When the pullers are on the rope, one might say, "Airborne, lets fly."
> This=
> =20
> means to get the rope up off the ground on the next heave. This word
> also=
> =20
> gets everyone on the team excited and crazy. [Presumably local to
> Hope=20
> College, judging by "the even year pull team".-- MAM]
>
>  =09gaposis n. The condition that arises when the fabric between the=20
> buttons on a shirt does not lie flat and instead comes apart to expose
> the=
> =20
> skin. "I shouldn't have worn this shirt without something under it, I
> have=
> =20
> been experiencing gaposis."
>
>  =09word n. A question asked to another person in greeting them. This
> is=20
> to ask someone what the word is on how they are and what they are
> doing. As=
> =20
> a person walks past they may be greeted with, "Word!" This derives
> from=20
> "word" as information or news. "Word up" is a common phrase used with
> this=
> =20
> definition to ask what is happening with someone else. Often used in=20
> alternative and rap music. [This is the first time I have seen any
> etymolog=
> y=20
> for this expression. -- MAM]
>

Heretofore, I've never heard "word (up)" interpreted as a question.
This is a new use with a different etymology from the old BE usage, in
which "word (up)!" signals strong agreement.

-Wilson Gray

>  =09wormburner n. A fast and hard tee shot in golf that never rises
> more=20
> than a few feet from the ground and just streaks along the ground.
> This=20
> refers to the speed and friction that causes heat so close to the
> ground=20
> that will literally burn the worms. "Wow, that was a
> wormburner=85better lu=
> ck=20
> next time. Ha, ha!"
>
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>
>
> --0-590426743-1119366501=:18889--
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 20:19:56 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:19:56 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f5hkgf@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 11:11 AM, Bill Lemay wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Bill Lemay 
> Subject:      Re: "No pork on my fork"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> North Byoo-na Vista, (IA).
> Often abbreviated as Byoonie.
>

In California, there's a nice distinction made between the placenames
Buena [bweyna] Vista and Buena [byoona] Park.

-Wilson Gray

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 21 20:20:50 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:20:50 -0400
Subject: "No pork on my fork"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I deal with these myths in my "Place Name Legends in Southern
Indiana," published in Indiana Names (or maybe Midwest Folklore, both
defunct I thinkn) back in the 12tyh or 13th Century. The Narbonne
"story" seems well-documented, at least as well-documented as what we
take for pretty sure etymologies (which, in another arena, could be
called the "legends of the educated").

dInIs

PS: I did have the title and century wrong. Here it is:
l973 Southern Indiana place-name legends as reflections of folk
history. Indiana Names 4,2:51-61.

>>And back then I objected to the Chili nomination, countering with
>>southern Indiana's Gnaw Bone (derived from the French Narbonne).
>>Still the winner in my opinion since more than pronunciation is
>>involved.
>>
>>dInIs
>
>Well, yours certainly does win the Picketwire Memorial Award for
>creativity, whipping up on Chili > Chai-lai.  I'd even toast it with
>a prize-winning Gnaw Bone Pale Ale, only they don't seem to be
>carried in Connecticut.  BUT (a big but):  Are we really sure this
>isn't an etymythological creation story?  According to at least one
>site, http://www.southernin.com/Pages/archives/march_01/names.html,
>the Narbonne version is one of several on the market.  Note the
>reference to "an educated guess, or perhaps legend of the
>educated"--sounds a lot like etymythology to me, if Ms. Willis can be
>trusted.  Y'unnastand I'm not saying, I'm just saying...
>
>Larry
>===========
>
>
>Wanda Willis is a Hoosier Folklorist and Historian who contributes to
>SouthernIN.com and also makes regular appearances at the Indianapolis
>Public Library System.
>
>What's in A Name?
>By Wanda L. Willis
>
>There are narratives explaining the origin for most of the unusual
>names. These intriguing accounts are legends often believed and may
>or may not be based in fact. If there'd been some truth in the
>beginning, through years of retelling today they're more legend than
>fact.
>
>Let's begin exploring a few of these Hoosier place names. If you're
>curious about your own home place please send a query to the editors
>and I will try to give you an answer.
>
>There are several legends surrounding Brown County villages. One
>story about Gnaw Bone states the Hawkins family had built a store and
>sawmill there. When one man asked another if he had seen Hawkins, the
>latter replied, "I seed him settin' on a log above the sawmill
>gnawin' a bone." An educated guess, or perhaps legend of the
>educated, is that French settlers named the town for a French city,
>Narbonne. Through time it became pronounced and spelled Gnaw Bone.
>
>Peoga [pee-O-guh] (Brown) also has an interesting story. The origin
>of the name is uncertain, but some villagers claim it's a Native
>American word for "village." According to local legend, however, the
>name comes from a holler a farmer used every morning to call his hogs.
>
>Doc Jesse Isaacs was acting postmaster in the Jackson County
>community of Surprise and is supposedly responsible for its name. As
>the story goes he expressed his surprise that the village got a
>railroad through it and a post office - hence, the name.
>...

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Jun 21 20:27:59 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:27:59 -0400
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F20D9941BE@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: 

I speak French that you do not want to  hear. Once I quaked in
linguistic horror as I entered a French pharmacy to buy the athlete's
foot medicine I so sorely needed. Would it be medicine for the "foot
of the athlete" (the English model), or the "mushrooms of the foot"
(the German model). I could say both in French, but which to say?
What a dilemma!

dInIs

>         Note that these have different characteristics.  "Halitosis" and
>"B.O." were coined names for recognized problems that already had names
>("bad breath" and "body odor," respectively).  The new, euphemistic name
>made the problem less of a social stigma, allowing the consumer to
>safely buy a product to combat it.  "Athlete's foot" (instead of "foot
>fungus") is in this category too.
>
>         "Ring around the collar" and "tattle-tale gray," on the other
>hand, were coined terms to address a phenomenon that previously had
>barely even been perceived and did not have its own name:  that clothes
>washed in laundry soap did not get as white as clothes washed in modern
>detergents.
>
>John Baker
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
>Of Laurence Horn
>Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:44 PM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: slang list
>
>>There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing
>>in those days:
>>"Halitosis" (Listerine)
>>"B.O." (Lifebuoy)
>>"Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
>>"Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry) There was
>>some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten, promoted by
>>Fitch's Shampoo.
>
>And let's not forget "Ring around the collar", an insidious and
>generally fatal disorder, curable only by I forget which product.
>
>>Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as
>>being more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."
>>
>>A. Murie
>>
>>~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 21 20:36:11 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:36:11 -0400
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>I speak French that you do not want to  hear. Once I quaked in
>linguistic horror as I entered a French pharmacy to buy the athlete's
>foot medicine I so sorely needed. Would it be medicine for the "foot
>of the athlete" (the English model), or the "mushrooms of the foot"
>(the German model). I could say both in French, but which to say?
>What a dilemma!
>
>dInIs

I'd have gone with "athlete's mushrooms" myself.

L

>
>>         Note that these have different characteristics.  "Halitosis" and
>>"B.O." were coined names for recognized problems that already had names
>>("bad breath" and "body odor," respectively).  The new, euphemistic name
>>made the problem less of a social stigma, allowing the consumer to
>>safely buy a product to combat it.  "Athlete's foot" (instead of "foot
>>fungus") is in this category too.
>>
>>         "Ring around the collar" and "tattle-tale gray," on the other
>>hand, were coined terms to address a phenomenon that previously had
>>barely even been perceived and did not have its own name:  that clothes
>>washed in laundry soap did not get as white as clothes washed in modern
>>detergents.
>>
>>John Baker
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
>>Of Laurence Horn
>>Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:44 PM
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: slang list
>>
>>>There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing
>>>in those days:
>>>"Halitosis" (Listerine)
>>>"B.O." (Lifebuoy)
>>>"Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
>>>"Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry) There was
>>>some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten, promoted by
>>>Fitch's Shampoo.
>>
>>And let's not forget "Ring around the collar", an insidious and
>>generally fatal disorder, curable only by I forget which product.
>>
>>>Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as
>>>being more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."
>>>
>>>A. Murie
>>>
>>>~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 20:58:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:58:28 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f5pmec@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 12:47 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer 
> Subject:      Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:35:22 -0400, Wilson Gray 
> wrote:
>> On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>> "Poppa-stoppa" doesn't come close, but there was a series of beloved
>>> New Orleans DJs in the '60s who went by that name. The word was in
>>> print by '46.
>>
>> DJ's used it?! This may be crying Wol(o)f, but I've long been under
>> the
>> impression that "poppa-stoppa" was a kind of punning pseudo-euphemism
>> for "mutha-fukka," inspired by a traditional joke - told and re-told
>> by
>> generations of little boys, each passing it along under the impression
>> that they are the first to have heard it - whose punch line is, "That
>> woddn no 'whoppa!' That was my asshole-stoppa!"
>
> I assume {mammy/mamma/mama}-{jammer/jammy/jamma} is in the same family
> of
> jocular euphemisms?
>
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>

You are correct, sir! However, in the interests of full disclosure, let
me state that this is my own, intuitive analysis, since all of these
terms, and the joke referred to, antedate my birth. Had I been present
at their creation, I might think - or even know - different. ["Think
different" and "know different" are good BE. At the moment, I can't
come up with standard equivalents. Merely adding -ly doesn't work.]

-Wilson Gray

From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Jun 21 21:08:24 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:08:24 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use
In-Reply-To: <34129.69.142.143.59.1119379156.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu>
Message-ID: 

OK, that timeline makes sense--late 19th century (in fact, I thought of
"The Mikado" as I wrote my comment but didn't check it out, obviously).  My
mother and her sisters were all born between 1900 and 1920 (a BIG family),
so they would have caught the kimono fever.

At 02:39 PM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:07:22 -0400, Beverly Flanigan 
>wrote:
> >At 12:00 PM 6/21/2005, you wrote:
> >>At 11:33 AM -0400 6/21/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>I have only ever used the "long-o" final syllable, but then, I have
> >>>never used the word to mean anything but the Japanese garment.
> >>ditto, on both conjuncts
> >>
> >>Larry
> >
> >Ah, but you're not wearers of the thing!  I never used the word
> >"kimono/a" either, but my mother did; as Vicki and I said before, it
> >appears to come from that earlier generation--probably as a catchy
> >"exotic" term for a then new lightweight maybe flowery garment to be
> >worn over a nightie (that's a cute one) at breakfast.  I suspect the
> >earlier Victorian era items were heavy, dark, and stodgy.
>
>But the kimono itself first caught Western interest in the Victorian era.
>I think it dates back to Anglo-American fascination with Meiji-era Japan
>in the 1880s, famously reflected in Gilbert and Sullivan's _Mikado_ (Mike
>Leigh's 1999 film _Topsy-Turvy_ captures this Japanophilia vividly).
>
>By the turn of the 20th century one can find ads in the Chicago Tribune
>for "kimono wrappers" from Marshall Field's. There were even elaborate
>kimono parties among fashionable ladies...
>
>-----
>Chicago Tribune, Jul 14, 1901, p. 46
>KIMONO TEA THE LATEST FAD.
>Fashionable Women Find Comfortable Form of Afternoon Reception.
>
>The latest thing for a warm day social function is the "kimono tea." The
>invitation is in the usual form of a calling card of the hostess, with the
>date written in the lower lefthand corner, but across the top is written
>the word "kimono." This is inclosed in a tiny envelope, which is addressed
>in Japanese style, beginning at the wrong end, Illinois, Chicago, Sheridan
>road, number, Smith John Mrs. For the convenience of Uncle Sam this is
>reinclosed in an ordinary envelope and addressed in the usual manner.
>[...]
>The hostess receives her guests, who are all ladies, dressed in any light,
>clinging skirts, but, instead of a fancy modern waist, she wears a kimono.
>Her hair is dressed in Japanese style, she wears pointed embroidered
>slippers, and her face is heavily powdered. In greeting each guest she
>bows low three times. The guests are conducted to the waiting-room, where
>a maid assists them to don slippers and kimonos, and to use freely the
>rice powder, and after the hostess has greeted them they find scattered
>about the rooms a variety of cushions on which they are expected to
>recline or sit, the chairs being conspicuous by their absence.
>[etc.]
>-----
>
>And here's an early indication that the Americanization of the kimono was
>accompanied by a change in the spelling/pronunciation of the final vowel:
>
>-----
>Washington Post, Jul 27, 1902, p. 33
>NEGLIGEES FOR SUMMER WEAR.
>
> From the kimonos, the genuine sort spelled with a final o, and the
>Americanized ones that are spelled sometimes with an o, sometimes with an
>a ... every style, every gradation of quality and of beauty is spread
>before us.
>-----
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 21:12:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:12:38 -0400
Subject: slang list
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f6106f@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 12:37 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       sagehen 
> Subject:      Re: slang list
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing
> in
> those days:
> "Halitosis" (Listerine)
> "B.O." (Lifebuoy)
> "Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
> "Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry)

Ipana toothpaste (a nonsense rhyme of the day: "Anna, Anna! Get the
Ipana! Mother just bit a wax banana!")

> There was some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten,
> promoted
> by Fitch's Shampoo.

The name of the dandruff-producing bacterium: Pittyrosporum(sp.?) ovale

-Wilson Gray

>
> Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as
> being
> more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."
>
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>
>

From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Jun 21 21:21:36 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:21:36 -0400
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <42bvm4$f62rgg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 21, 2005, at 2:37 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society 
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" 
> Subject:      countdown  was: "As If"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I've heard, but have no documentation for, that the idea of a
> "countdown" for a missile/rocket launch was an invention of the Germans
> at Peenemuende (where the V-2 rocket was developed), and when they came
> to America after the war, to support V-2 launches at Ft. Bliss
> (1946-1950), and then here to Huntsville for the development of Army
> and
> NASA rockets, they brought countdowns with them.  So the term could
> show
> up in US technical documents as early as 1946 or so.
>
> Contemporary accounts of the Manhattan Project show that a countdown
> was
> used at the Trinity test, but I can't find the word "countdown" in any
> contemporary accounts online.
>
> Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
> off":

Which also is of military origin.

-Wilson Gray

>
>      "She answered, "Board green!  Clear from tower! Ready for count
> off!"
>      "Minus thirty! Twenty-nine -- twenty-eight --" He broke off and
> added sheepishly, "It does feel good." "
> [from Amazon.com's Inside the Book]
>
>
> OED has 1953
>
>
>
>
>
>> *In writing this, I began wondering when _countdown_ began--I
>> remember it from pop/rock music radio shows, of the top n
>> hits of the week or (on New Year's Eve) of the year, well
>> before I heard it from those rocketry geeks over at Cape
>> Canaveral, but the OED has lots of rocketry/missile launch
>> cites (beginning 1953) and no entry for the pop radio usage,
>> which is certainly where the "countdown" in shows like
>> tonight's transferred from.  It's now very widespread--ESPN,
>> for example, uses the device constantly for all sorts of
>> shows ranking the top n whatevers (plays of the day, all-time
>> comebacks, on-field blow-ups,...).
>>
>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 21:28:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:28:15 -0700
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Mark.  Such lists are always of interest to me.,

JL

"Mark A. Mandel"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
Subject: slang list
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--0-590426743-1119366501=:18889
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Dictionary of New Terms

Compiled by the History of the English Language classes at Hope College,=20
1997-2002

http://www.hope.edu/academic/english/gruenler/newterms.htm

An alphabetical list of 574 expressions, many of them college slang and man=
y=20
of them local to Hope College. Some are familiar to me, many are not; some=
=20
may be of interest to readers of this list. Some examples:

=09academic placenta n. The last of one's academic ideology that exists=20
in one's first years as a professional in the real world. "That new guy is=
=20
insufferable. He really needs to shed his academic placenta and figure out=
=20
how things really work around here." Used by those in the business world.=
=20
See: www.sabram.com/site/slang.html.

=09airborne v. intr. A technical term used by the even year pull team.=20
When the pullers are on the rope, one might say, "Airborne, lets fly." This=
=20
means to get the rope up off the ground on the next heave. This word also=
=20
gets everyone on the team excited and crazy. [Presumably local to Hope=20
College, judging by "the even year pull team".-- MAM]

=09gaposis n. The condition that arises when the fabric between the=20
buttons on a shirt does not lie flat and instead comes apart to expose the=
=20
skin. "I shouldn't have worn this shirt without something under it, I have=
=20
been experiencing gaposis."

=09word n. A question asked to another person in greeting them. This is=20
to ask someone what the word is on how they are and what they are doing. As=
=20
a person walks past they may be greeted with, "Word!" This derives from=20
"word" as information or news. "Word up" is a common phrase used with this=
=20
definition to ask what is happening with someone else. Often used in=20
alternative and rap music. [This is the first time I have seen any etymolog=
y=20
for this expression. -- MAM]

=09wormburner n. A fast and hard tee shot in golf that never rises more=20
than a few feet from the ground and just streaks along the ground. This=20
refers to the speed and friction that causes heat so close to the ground=20
that will literally burn the worms. "Wow, that was a wormburner=85better lu=
ck=20
next time. Ha, ha!"

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

--0-590426743-1119366501=:18889--

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

From Berson at ATT.NET  Tue Jun 21 21:28:19 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:28:19 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use
Message-ID: 

And in art -- viz. Van Gogh's paintings "Bridge in the Rain" and "Plum Tree
in Bloom", 1887, after woodblock prints of Hiroshige.

Joel

At 6/21/2005 02:39 PM, you wrote:
>But the kimono itself first caught Western interest in the Victorian era.
>I think it dates back to Anglo-American fascination with Meiji-era Japan
>in the 1880s, famously reflected in Gilbert and Sullivan's _Mikado_ (Mike
>Leigh's 1999 film _Topsy-Turvy_ captures this Japanophilia vividly).

From Berson at ATT.NET  Tue Jun 21 21:38:07 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:07 -0400
Subject: 'kimono' pronun & use
Message-ID: 

Probably not -- look at ukiyoe ("pictures of the floating world") prints
for geisha in kimonos.

Joel

At 6/21/2005 01:07 PM, you wrote:
>I suspect the earlier Victorian era items were
>heavy, dark, and stodgy.

From Berson at ATT.NET  Tue Jun 21 21:45:07 2005
From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:45:07 -0400
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

Or as my then college-frashman brother once said, for elbow-length gloves,
"gloves of the length of the knee of the arm".

At 6/21/2005 04:27 PM, you wrote:
>speak French that you do not want to  hear. Once I quaked in
>linguistic horror as I entered a French pharmacy to buy the athlete's
>foot medicine I so sorely needed. Would it be medicine for the "foot
>of the athlete" (the English model), or the "mushrooms of the foot"
>(the German model). I could say both in French, but which to say?
>What a dilemma!
>
>dInIs

From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 21 21:48:59 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:48:59 -0400
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

        Wilson, you've teased us enough.  You're going to have to tell
us the joke.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Wilson Gray
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:58 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)

You are correct, sir! However, in the interests of full disclosure, let
me state that this is my own, intuitive analysis, since all of these
terms, and the joke referred to, antedate my birth. Had I been present
at their creation, I might think - or even know - different. ["Think
different" and "know different" are good BE. At the moment, I can't come
up with standard equivalents. Merely adding -ly doesn't work.]

-Wilson Gray

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 21 21:51:27 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:51:27 -0500
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

> >
> > Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
> > off":
>
> Which also is of military origin.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
 Isn't the standard military "count off" where a bunch of soldiers
enumerate themselves? and the numbers go in increasing order?

Is there a military count off where the enumeration goes downwards and
ends at zero?

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 21:54:50 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:54:50 -0700
Subject: "gay vague"
Message-ID: 

Sounds like what they really mean is "gay lite."

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "gay vague"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 5:49 AM -0700 6/21/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Slow news day.
>
>JL

Well, I'm not sure. In the Sunday Styles section, it's *always* a
slow news day, but they do always seem to come up with *some*thing...

Actually, I'm more used to seeing the phrase used to describe not
people but ads, as reflected in a 5-year-old article that I
distribute in my language, sex & gender class, excerpted below.

larry
==========================

The New York Times
July 20, 2000, Thursday, Late Edition - Final

SECTION: Section F; Page 1; Column 2; House & Home/Style Desk
HEADLINE: When Intentions Fall Between the Lines
BYLINE: By WILLIAM L. HAMILTON

ARE the billboards in New York advertising the Grand Can, a
swivel-top, orange-pop-colored trash can, a boast about the
sophistication of its design or of its buyers?

"Swings Both Ways," the ad states. It should know. It does, too.

Same-sex innuendo is showing up more and more in national
advertising, and in more consumer categories, from automobiles, beer
and soft drinks to home furnishings, once as lifeless in its
advertised image as a period room.

Inspired by the license taken by fashion advertisers, "gay vague"
advertising, as marketers call it (designed to reach both gay and
mainstream audiences) has become the leading edge, many in the
industry say. And conveniently, where mainstream audiences see
ambiguity, gay audiences see a direct sales pitch.

In Mitchell Gold furniture ads running in national magazines now,
two smiling young men sit on a white sofa, with a blond little girl
between them on a child's chair. A) They are college friends with a
sister. B) They are an attractive couple. The girl is their daughter
Dorothy. And you aren't in Kansas anymore.

The muscleman in the tight, short-sleeved business shirt pressing
his knuckles into a desk, in newspaper and telephone kiosk
advertisements for Dallak office furniture, is Dallak's targeted
customer: young, active, sexy, fit. And an identifiable icon for
urban gay men.

"We intended to be inclusive," said Neil Schwartzberg, the president
of Dallek. "A new unsedentary image of offices. Hard-bodied furniture
for hard-bodied people."

Gay vague advertising aims at what many companies believe is an
affluent gay dollar, while also displaying a casual, inclusive
attitude toward same-sex issues that advertisers hope will capture
younger, hip mainstream consumers.
...

>
>"Steve Kl." wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Steve Kl."
>Subject: "gay vague"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I'm nominating "gay vague" for something next January, not sure what.
>Probably most unnecessary.
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/fashion/sundaystyles/19GAYDAR.html
>
>The weird thing about reading this article is that almost all of the
>quotations sound stilted, like the reporter asked the people to use "gay
>vague" in a sentence. I find it odd that that many people would
>spontaneously produce this phrase to describe this "phenomenon".
>
>(It's not new to 2005, per
>http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?mode=4 it
>appears to have been coined in 1997. But unless it dies a quick death, it
>will be newly prominent this year thanks to the NYT exposure.)
>
>I find it odd for something coined in 1997 that has only about 800 google
>hits being featured in an article where people are dropping the term into
>their quotations left and right, as though it were a phrase on everyone's
>tongues. (I have never heard it uttered out loud, myself. Maybe Boston's
>just too parochial.)
>
>It's also not that productive: "gay vagueness" gets 19 hits.
>
>New Yorkers: is this phrase bandied about on the streets the way this
>article would have us believe?
>
>-- Steve K
>
>__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 21:58:03 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:58:03 -0700
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

How about the "Valley of Fatigue" ?

Sometimes it feels like I live there.

JL

sagehen  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: slang list
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were a lot of these anxiety-producing expressions in ad writing in
those days:
"Halitosis" (Listerine)
"B.O." (Lifebuoy)
"Tattle-tale Gray" (Fels Naptha soap)
"Pink Toothbrush" (Can't remember who promoted this worry)
There was some shaming term for dandruff which I have forgotten, promoted
by Fitch's Shampoo.

Not that the technique began or ended there, but these I remember as being
more or less contemporaneous with "gaposis."

A. Murie

~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 22:01:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:01:46 -0700
Subject: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
Message-ID: 

Mais oui !

JL

Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
Subject: Re: "opening the kimono" (1979?, 1984)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:35:22 -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
>On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>> "Poppa-stoppa" doesn't come close, but there was a series of beloved
>> New Orleans DJs in the '60s who went by that name. The word was in
>> print by '46.
>
>DJ's used it?! This may be crying Wol(o)f, but I've long been under the
>impression that "poppa-stoppa" was a kind of punning pseudo-euphemism
>for "mutha-fukka," inspired by a traditional joke - told and re-told by
>generations of little boys, each passing it along under the impression
>that they are the first to have heard it - whose punch line is, "That
>woddn no 'whoppa!' That was my asshole-stoppa!"

I assume {mammy/mamma/mama}-{jammer/jammy/jamma} is in the same family of
jocular euphemisms?

--Ben Zimmer

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From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 21 22:02:10 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:02:10 -0500
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

> >
> > Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
> > off":
>
> Which also is of military origin.
>
> -Wilson Gray

It's not surprising he would use military jargon; he attended the Naval
Academy from 1925 - 1929, and served on the USS Lexington and USS Roper
before being disabled out, with TB.  He maintained an interest in
military affairs throughout his life.

I thought the cite would be relevant to the discussion of "countdown" in
rocketry because he was such an advocate of rockets and space travel,
and had personally attended two V-2 launches.  He would be as likely as
anyone to have picked up on "countdown" as we now use the term, and to
have used it in his writing (assuming it is of German origin).

The rocket launches in "The Rolling Stones" end with the German word
"Brennschluss" instead of "blast off", meaning to me that he was fully
aware of the importance of the Germans in advancing rocketry at the time
(he had maintained membership in the American Rocket Society since its
founding in the 1930's).

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 22:09:27 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:09:27 -0700
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

Weren't those antediluvian music countdowns called the "hit parade" ?

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: countdown was: "As If"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I've heard, but have no documentation for, that the idea of a
>"countdown" for a missile/rocket launch was an invention of the Germans
>at Peenemuende (where the V-2 rocket was developed), and when they came
>to America after the war, to support V-2 launches at Ft. Bliss
>(1946-1950), and then here to Huntsville for the development of Army and
>NASA rockets, they brought countdowns with them. So the term could show
>up in US technical documents as early as 1946 or so.
>
>Contemporary accounts of the Manhattan Project show that a countdown was
>used at the Trinity test, but I can't find the word "countdown" in any
>contemporary accounts online.
>
>Robert Heinlein's 1952 novel "The Rolling Stones" calls it a "count
>off":
>
> "She answered, "Board green! Clear from tower! Ready for count
>off!"
> "Minus thirty! Twenty-nine -- twenty-eight --" He broke off and
>added sheepishly, "It does feel good." "
>[from Amazon.com's Inside the Book]
>
>
>OED has 1953
>

Right, that's the one I was noting below, along with the lack of any
entry or documentation for the pop music "countdown". Does anyone
have a date for that? As I mentioned, I remember the music
countdowns themselves from the mid-1950s (top 40 of the week, top 400
of the year, even one for the decade--probably on 12/12/59), but I
can't remember when the word itself was introduced. In any case, it
does seem culturally salient enough by now to have earned a place in
dictionaries, and AHD4 doesn't include it either, just the missile
sense. Note that the standard sense provided for the latter--AHD's
is 'The counting backward aloud from an arbitrary starting number to
indicate the time remaining before an event or operation, such as the
launching of a missile or space vehicle'--doesn't really apply
directly to the former, in which the counting down *is* the event.
You can watch the AFI show tonight if you don't believe me.

Larry

>
>
>> *In writing this, I began wondering when _countdown_ began--I
>> remember it from pop/rock music radio shows, of the top n
>> hits of the week or (on New Year's Eve) of the year, well
>> before I heard it from those rocketry geeks over at Cape
>> Canaveral, but the OED has lots of rocketry/missile launch
>> cites (beginning 1953) and no entry for the pop radio usage,
>> which is certainly where the "countdown" in shows like
>> tonight's transferred from. It's now very widespread--ESPN,
>> for example, uses the device constantly for all sorts of
>> shows ranking the top n whatevers (plays of the day, all-time
>> comebacks, on-field blow-ups,...).
>>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 22:13:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:13:46 -0700
Subject: potato slur
Message-ID: 

I recommend _The Couch Potato Handbook_ to all interested parties. I cited it in HDAS I.

JL

Laurence Horn  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: potato slur
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>What a great illustration of the Standard Language Ideology!
>It shows the belief that (a) the presence of a word/phrase in a dictionary
>(especially the OED) legitimizes it, and (b) removing a word/phrase from a
>dictionary would actually affect usage.

And as a one-time acquaintance of Robert Armstrong (a henchman of R.
Crumb), who is not only associated (at least in some quarters) with
the coinage of "couch potato" but has actually received royalties
from the use of the word, I see no slur intended against either
potatoes or couches. Robert was, and I assume is, a remarkably
non-judgmental sort. (FWIW, he always claimed he invented it with
the allusion to "toober" in mind.) I see he's not credited as coiner
by the OED, though, although he was in other stories I've read over
the years. (He's the Armstrong who co-authored _The Official
Couch-Potato Handbook_ in the 1983 cite, but he was already
silk-screening couch potato T-shirts in the mid-1970s.)

larry

>
>
>On 6/21/05 7:45 AM, "Jonathan Lighter" wrote:
>
>> BREAKING NEWS FROM FOX
>>
>> In London today, potato farmers marched on Parliament to demand
>>that the term
>> "couch potato" be removed from the prestigious _Oxford English Dictionary_.
>>
>> The protesting farmers claim that the term demeans the potato and is
>> offensive.
>>
>> They demand it be stricken from the language and replaced with the
>>term "couch
>> slouch."
>>
>> Source: _Fox & Friends_, 3 minutes ago.
>>
>> We report, you deride.
>>
>> JL
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Yahoo! Mail
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 22:19:12 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:19:12 -0700
Subject: bogeying=boogying
Message-ID: 

My experience as a trained language professional suggests that the epithet "boogie" was mainly used by lower-class thuggish types in the Northeast.  First printed cites are from the early '20s, IIRC, but if the ety. is correct it must be much older. My perception is that it's still around, but on the way out at last.

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: bogeying=boogying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

>
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: bogeying=boogying
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> My grandmother's NYC word for this (from her 1890s childhood) was
> "boogie."
>
> I did not know the same word (< "bogey") in a different sense as an
> ethnic epithet until I was a teenager.
>
> JL
>

I can understand that. I heard "boogie" used as a slur once in a movie
and I've read it in fiction. But I've never heard it used that way by
anyone in real life. I can't recall the title of the movie, but it was
released in 1950 and it was the first vehicle to pair Richard Widmark
and Sidney Poitier as its stars, if anyone cares. Rich was the
working-class, bigoted
white guy and Sid was [surprise!] the saintly, whiter-than-white, black
ER doctor who treated Rich after the white rioters lost to the black
rioters. The line was, I think, "I saw a boogie drivin' a Cadillac a
block long!"

-Wilson

> Amorelli wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Amorelli
> Subject: Re: bogeying=boogying
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm sorry but the only 'bogey' I'm familiar with...:))..is those
> little hard
> balls of snot that unpleasant kids in class used to squish under the
> surface
> of the desk tops for all-comers to find. Mind you, this is Brit.E.
> circa
> 1970s.
> M.I.Amorelli
> EAP, Faculties of Economics and Law,
> Sassari

Don't we call those "boogers" here in the colonies? FWIW, in BE,
"booger" can be used with a variety of meanings under various
conditions. E.g., when I was in the Army, a black NCO, noting my size -
6' 4" and 210 lbs. - exclaimed, "Damn! You a BIK[sic, via BE emotional
devoicing] booguh, aintcha?!"

-Wilson Gray

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael McKernan"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 7:30 AM
> Subject: bogeying=boogying
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Michael McKernan
>> Subject: bogeying=boogying
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> Found this 'bogey' today while googling something else:
>>
>>> Report from the Florida Fiery Foods Show
>>> After an oyster dinner, I started bogeying on the dance floor with my
>>> niece Emily
>>> DeWitt, then with Mary Jane. No one there had ever seen me dance, ...
>>> www.fiery-foods.com/zine-industry/flashow.html - 12k - Cached -
>>> Similar
>>> pages
>>
>> Google hits: boogying 18,600
>> boogieing 7,490
>>
>> While there are nearly 14,000 google hits for 'bogeying', all that I
>> saw
>> (a
>> very brief glance) pertain to golf 'bogeys,' rather than the
>> 'boogie'-derived usage here, but at least some other boogie/bogeys
>> turn
>> up:
>>
>>> Midnight menu at Right Place
>>> Today, Chennai conjures images of BPOs, discoth?ques and party
>>> animals
>>> bogeying
>>> into the wee hours of the night. The city, indeed, never sleeps! ...
>>> www.chennaionline.com/hotelsandtours/
>>> Restaurants/2005/03rightplace.asp -
>>> 67k - Jun 17, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> Discover Native America 2001
>>> ... just inches from the drummers, slamming, thrashing, striking the
>>> heat
>>> taut
>>> hides, the drums, suspended on wooden pegs, undulating, bogeying,
>>> shimmying. ...
>>> www.cgcas.org/dna.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> Jazz | JazzTimes Magazine > Reviews > Concert Reviews
>>> Jumping, twirling, dropping to their knees and just plain bogeying,
>>> the
>>> group
>>> worked up a sweat that of course led to their abandoning their fancy
>>> pinstripe ...
>>> www.jazztimes.com/reviews/ concert_reviews/detail.cfm?article=10318
>>> - 32k
>>> - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> The Blues Audience newsletter
>>> Sugar Ray & The Bluetones got the crowd out on the floor, dancing,
>>> and
>>> kept them
>>> bogeying all night long. With "Monster" Mike Welch on guitar, ...
>>> www.bluesaudience.com/sugarray.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
>>>
>>> DwightOzard.com | Lover's Quarrel Article: Dance, White Boy, Dance
>>> ...
>>> Call it what you want-"getting down," "bogeying," "tripping Dick
>>> Clark and
>>> the
>>> light-fantastic," whatever-but when James Brown comes on, there is
>>> only
>>> one ...
>>> www.dwightozard.com/lq-article.asp?id=78 - 22k - Cached - Similar
>>> pages
>>>
>>> USCG Auxiliary 1SR
>>> Bogeying on the tarmac.Tom Negri, FC 13-06 starting the twist
>>> contest, A
>>> closer
>>> view of the castle which captured the hearts of the kids. ...
>>> www.cgaux1sr.org/photo/d13Blessing/div13Blessing.htm - 11k - Cached -
>>> Similar pages
>>
>> Etc.
>>
>> Not sure if this qualifies for eggcorn status.
>>
>> Michael McKernan
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date:
>> 17/06/2005
>>
>>
>
>
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun 21 22:21:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:21:52 -0700
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

I have no info on "word (up)!" before the late '80s.  Still there, Wilson?

JL

Wilson Gray  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: slang list
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jun 21, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
> Subject: slang list
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable
> text,
> while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware
> tools.
>
> --0-590426743-1119366501=:18889
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
>
> Dictionary of New Terms
>
> Compiled by the History of the English Language classes at Hope
> College,=20
> 1997-2002
>
> http://www.hope.edu/academic/english/gruenler/newterms.htm
>
> An alphabetical list of 574 expressions, many of them college slang
> and man=
> y=20
> of them local to Hope College. Some are familiar to me, many are not;
> some=
> =20
> may be of interest to readers of this list. Some examples:
>
> =09academic placenta n. The last of one's academic ideology that
> exists=20
> in one's first years as a professional in the real world. "That new
> guy is=
> =20
> insufferable. He really needs to shed his academic placenta and figure
> out=
> =20
> how things really work around here." Used by those in the business
> world.=
> =20
> See: www.sabram.com/site/slang.html.
>
> =09airborne v. intr. A technical term used by the even year pull
> team.=20
> When the pullers are on the rope, one might say, "Airborne, lets fly."
> This=
> =20
> means to get the rope up off the ground on the next heave. This word
> also=
> =20
> gets everyone on the team excited and crazy. [Presumably local to
> Hope=20
> College, judging by "the even year pull team".-- MAM]
>
> =09gaposis n. The condition that arises when the fabric between the=20
> buttons on a shirt does not lie flat and instead comes apart to expose
> the=
> =20
> skin. "I shouldn't have worn this shirt without something under it, I
> have=
> =20
> been experiencing gaposis."
>
> =09word n. A question asked to another person in greeting them. This
> is=20
> to ask someone what the word is on how they are and what they are
> doing. As=
> =20
> a person walks past they may be greeted with, "Word!" This derives
> from=20
> "word" as information or news. "Word up" is a common phrase used with
> this=
> =20
> definition to ask what is happening with someone else. Often used in=20
> alternative and rap music. [This is the first time I have seen any
> etymolog=
> y=20
> for this expression. -- MAM]
>

Heretofore, I've never heard "word (up)" interpreted as a question.
This is a new use with a different etymology from the old BE usage, in
which "word (up)!" signals strong agreement.

-Wilson Gray

> =09wormburner n. A fast and hard tee shot in golf that never rises
> more=20
> than a few feet from the ground and just streaks along the ground.
> This=20
> refers to the speed and friction that causes heat so close to the
> ground=20
> that will literally burn the worms. "Wow, that was a
> wormburner=85better lu=
> ck=20
> next time. Ha, ha!"
>
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>
>
> --0-590426743-1119366501=:18889--
>

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From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 21 22:49:43 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:49:43 -0700
Subject: Word nerds
In-Reply-To: <20050620165628.65321.qmail@web33115.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

On Jun 20, 2005, at 9:56 AM, Ed Keer wrote:

> The Word Nerds are two guys who podcast about
> etymology.

well, about words in general.

> http://thewordnerds.libsyn.com/
>
> I only listened to one podcast so far, but it seems
> like they could use some help with fact checking.

i had trouble downloading files.  but the bits i got to hear sounded
pretty professionally put together -- they do only one podcast a
week, but it's long, and that's an awful lot of work -- but, as ed
keer said, weak on facts.

i'm beginning to feel inundated by auditory as well as written data.
so much to keep track of!  [sing to the tune of "so nice to come home
to".]

arnold

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 21 22:52:38 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:52:38 -0400
Subject: countdown  was: "As If"
In-Reply-To: <20050621220927.19357.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

>Weren't those antediluvian music countdowns called the "hit parade" ?
>
>JL
 ~<~<~<~<
Glug, splutter.....as one of the survivors of the deluge, I can attest that
The Hit Parade ("brought to you by Lucky Strikes, so round, so smooth, so
fully-packed:  LS/MFT," commemorated elsewhere in these pages) was of the
"top ten" tunes of the preceding week  (arrived at by who knows what
calculus?) which were presented in descending order, but without, as far as
I remember, using the expression "countdown."
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>

From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Jun 21 23:46:32 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:32 -0400
Subject: countdown was: "As If"
Message-ID: 

Messed up that Lucky Strike ad line;  shoulda been: "So round, so firm, so
fully-packed, so free and easy on the draw!"  (Never cared much for
Luckies, myself.  Camels were my downfall.)
AM

From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 22 00:23:22 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:23:22 -0500
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

>
> I have no info on "word (up)!" before the late '80s.  Still
> there, Wilson?
>
> JL
>

"Word Up" album by Cameo was released in 1986.

>From Factiva:

Hip Hop and Home Slice 3 August 1984 The Washington Post PAGE B5

THE JARGON

Bad -- Good.

Battle -- Challenge between two or more crews.

Bite -- Stealing another breakdancer's steps.

Burned -- A crew that's been beaten in a battle.

Crew -- Breakdance group, friends, buddies.

Chill out -- To calm down, relax.

Fresh -- New or original, different.

Hip Hop -- All-inclusive for breakdancing, rapping and graffiti-writing.

Home slice -- Best friend.

Juice -- Clout.

Wack -- Incorrect, not in style.

Word up -- To tell the truth.

THE FORMS

Breaking -- Dance movements, close to the ground, that resemble Russian
folk dances.

Electric boogie -- Robotic, current-like motions, gyrations.

Freestyle -- Some breaking, some electric boogeying, with a touch of
jazz. Close to traditional gymnastics.

Uprock -- Dancing "fight," where dancers are very close but do not touch
each other.THE STEPS

Back spin -- With legs tucked up and held by arms.

Head spin -- On the head, using arms and legs for propulsion. (This one
can be dangerous.)

Lock -- Using arms, hands, knees, legs and feet to create exaggerated
imitations of laughing gestures, like knee-slapping.

Moonwalk (or Toe-Heel Walk) -- On the toes of one foot and the heel of
the other.

Pop -- Quick jerk of one muscle to allow another to move up quickly.

Smurf Walk -- The back foot on its heel and the front foot on its toes.

Suicide -- Its name is a warning. A no-hands forward flip that leaves
the dancer flat on his back.

Tick -- Hard, snapping movement that makes the dancer's body look as if
it is breaking into separate parts.

Wave -- Any movement that gives the illusion of a wave or current
running through the body.

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun 22 00:30:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:30:28 -0700
Subject: slang list
Message-ID: 

Thanks, Bill.

JL

"Mullins, Bill"  wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: slang list
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> I have no info on "word (up)!" before the late '80s. Still
> there, Wilson?
>
> JL
>

"Word Up" album by Cameo was released in 1986.

>From Factiva:

Hip Hop and Home Slice 3 August 1984 The Washington Post PAGE B5

THE JARGON

Bad -- Good.

Battle -- Challenge between two or more crews.

Bite -- Stealing another breakdancer's steps.

Burned -- A crew that's been beaten in a battle.

Crew -- Breakdance group, friends, buddies.

Chill out -- To calm down, relax.

Fresh -- New or original, different.

Hip Hop -- All-inclusive for breakdancing, rapping and graffiti-writing.

Home slice -- Best friend.

Juice -- Clout.

Wack -- Incorrect, not in style.

Word up -- To tell the truth.

THE FORMS

Breaking -- Dance movements, close to the ground, that resemble Russian
folk dances.

Electric boogie -- Robotic, current-like motions, gyrations.

Freestyle -- Some breaking, some electric boogeying, with a touch of
jazz. Close to traditional gymnastics.

Uprock -- Dancing "fight," where dancers are very close but do not touch
each other.THE STEPS