ahold

[Wilson Gray]

I don't know that I really have ahold of this discussion, but it
really has a hold on me.

It's something like "loose" v. "aloose":

The ship's mooring is loose.

The ship broke aloose from its mooring.

-Wilson Gray

On 6/13/05, FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at salkeiz.k12.or.us> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: ahold
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 11:30AM >>>
> On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:18 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
>
>
>
> > I guess 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.  It just
> > seems odd to me, as each set is made up of two clearly separate
> > words for me.
>
> well, different people have somewhat different grammmars.  the
> question is when we should be trying to regulate uniformity, even if
> just in formal standard written language.  a lot of the time, it
> seems to me, we should just recognize variability, and get on with life.
>
> I am not trying to regulate, just wanting to know what people are thinking.
>
> > On a similar note of Sprachgefühl,
>
> this worries me a bit.  talking about Sprachgefuehl suggests that
> there is a language, English, out there, and individual people differ
> as to how good a "feel" they have for it.  that's not what you say
> below, but the word raises a flag for me.
>
> I don't think it should raise a red flag.  Perhaps we have different understandings of the word 'Sprachgefühl.'  Yes, I know that the English translation is 'feeling for language,' but that definition is inadequate.  That's why I use the German word.
>
> > the other day in several of my classes, we were discussing the use
> > of tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of "Did you get
> > the mail yet?"   I asked the classes whether this sentence bothers
> > them.  Usually, I get about a third to half who are bothered by
> > it.  One girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't see
> > how it could be a problem in any way and did not understand the
> > conflict that this sentence creates in my head.
>
> the use of the simple past form for perfect semantics is an extremely
> widespread americanism, used naturally by a great many educated
> people who are skillful writers.  me, for instance.  i would be
> extremely hesitant to call it nonstandard.
>
> Yes, I know it's widespread in the US and I do not consider it nonstandard or wrong, just different.  The 'yet' makes the preterite impossible for me in that sentence.
>
> we all cope with differences in all sorts of features of grammar and
> lexicon.  why not accommodate here?
>
> I do.
>
> up to this point, you seem to be saying that your student should
> learn to accommodate to you, presumably by abandoning the usage that
> you have trouble with.  your student could equally well insist that
> you should accommodate to her, by becoming aware of her tense usage,
> even if you don't use it yourself.
>
> No, if I came across that way, it was unintentional.  I am not, nor did I in class, suggest(ing) that anyone give up any usage or accomodate to anyone else's speech.
> I don't think she even thought I was telling her to change; she just didn't understand how it could be a problem for anyone.
>
> >   I pointed out that this is an example of different Sprachgefühle
> > that we have.
>
> now *this* is formulated neutrally, essentially in terms of grammar
> differences.  but what lesson were you trying to teach?
>
> The lesson was really about German verb tenses--although the forms are the same as those in English, the uses are not exactly the same.  The English examples were to point out that different dialects of English--and speakers from the same dialect (if that's possible, now that we have pointed out a difference)--might have different usages.
>
> Fritz
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>


--
-Wilson Gray